Marc Andreessen on the State of Film and Hollywood

Intro and the role of movies

00:00I think movies play the role in our culture that myths and legends used to play in ancient cultures or that novels used to play 100 years ago. They're the art form that that is capable of basically containing and expressing and making permanent the most important aspects of a culture or of a civilization. >> There were a lot of great films in 2019 and then like just a memory hole of like what great film has come out since then. Like something happened in Hollywood. The scripts that are being written, the types of things that are being made today are very very different than what was happening in 2018 2019. Mark, you've been known to monitor a situation or two. Welcome to the program. Eric, how would you characterize me as a

00:43situation monitor? Or Extremely eager, you know. I picture you with thorough. I picture you with security cameras just extensively monitoring, you know. Um At all hours of the night. Um So basically Howard Hughes and Katherine Howard Hughes in the penthouse, is that the Yeah. Um You're an elite situation monitor, which is why you're here. We're we're so happy to have you. Well, speaking of movies, I'm watching all the James Bond movies with with my my 10-year-old and we just got to Live and Let Die. Is it No, which one? Diamonds Are Forever, which is the one set in Las Vegas. And it turns out the producer Harry Saltzman of the Bond movies was a close personal friend of Howard Hughes at the time. So they set the movie in Vegas and

01:27had all this cooperation from Hughes and there's actually a Hughes character in the movie, but I'm just going to give a spoiler alert. Blofeld has kidnapped Hughes and is holding him hostage and has him a substitute in and is is is pretending to be Hughes and James Bond scales the side of Hughes's big casino in Vegas at the time and drops down through the skylight into essentially Howard Hughes's bathroom. And the bathroom is literally set up with like monitors and like, you know, computers and like typewriters and like, you know, an elaborate phone system and then a single golden roll of paper. And Bond drops into it and he's like, Hmm. And I was like, that's the perfect bathroom. [Laughter]

02:10Our our new media team has a Twitter group chat called monitoring the situation where that's that's the room that we they want in the office for for Exactly. I want the things happening in Twitter. Um with that let's segue I Did they ask for it to be the bathroom? Is that was that part of it? Yeah, that would be the next step. I believe. >> just be an added an added on feature? Yeah. All right. Let's proceed. Mark, not that many not everybody knows this about you, but you are an extensive movie buff and movie aficionado and you've been having some commentary in our group chats lately over some films that you think are are worth watching right now and and kind of broader commentary around what's what's been happening in

Movies as modern myths

02:50in films. So why don't you want you share that with us? Yeah, so let me start by saying, you know, kind of why why start by saying like why this topic matters. And so, you know, cuz Like you're like I think this does matter a lot. So um So first of all, I'll say like I've got like enormous respect for anybody who does anything creative and so like every time I see a movie, I'm just kind of marveling. Like I know what it takes to make one. It's like making a you know, making a text editor or something. It's just like this incredible labor of love and effort and blood, sweat and tears on everybody's part. And so it's and it's just like a minor miracle, I think, whenever any of these things actually

03:20you know, show up as a as a as a two-hour executed film. And so and I I think that's amazing. And so you know, none of what we're about to talk about, you know, should be considered a knock on on filmmakers per se or the people who put all this work into it. And the other thing I say is look, in the last, you know, whatever 5 years, decade, 20 years, there've been a tremendous number of what you could call you know, highly entertaining movies, right? And and some that I think are like jaw-dropping, right? So like, you know, like the just like, you know, one of my favorite genres action, you know, the John Wick movies are like, you know, the best action movies of all time. They're all in the last whatever 15

03:50years. You know, you you could name that for a lot of different kinds of movies. You know, the the sort of you know, the the entertainment factor is you know, remains very high. Um having said that, you know, I think movies and Catherine and I see if you agree with me on this or not. I think movies play the role in our culture that myths and legends used to play in ancient cultures or that novels maybe used to play, you know, 100 years ago or that you know, you know, maybe songs used to play or something like that, which is basically they're the art form that is capable of basically containing and expressing and making permanent the most important aspects of a culture or of a civilization, right? So so

04:33sometimes you'll hear the term like there's this term called the Great American Novel and there you know, so they do these certain novels like The Great Gatsby or whatever that like or To Kill a Mockingbird that kind of capture the spirit of the times and kind of become immortal through doing that. And and I think, you know, basically and I love novels, but like, you know, that the idea that novels do that I think is probably at this point, you know, pretty unlikely for a variety of reasons. We could have a whole separate podcast on that. But for the last, let's say at least 60 years and probably 100 years like movies have been the way that that that that our culture that our culture is able to express itself in a way that

The 2019 peak and the memory hole

05:01is going to really deeply stand the test of time where people 100 and 200 and 500 years from now are going to look back and kind of say this is what these people are about. By the way, Catherine, would you agree with that? Yeah, no no, definitely. I mean I think uh I I think it was I think in slow decline probably the last 25 years. Um because fewer like, you know, probably the '90s was the the last decade where everyone watched the same movies and the Oscars were indicative of like what's a great film that everyone has to see. I would love to hear when you think it started bifurcating, but it does feel like there's been this sort of bifurcation of if, you know, maybe you could say the Tarantino films of the

05:36last 20 years were were widely watched and mattered in cinematic lore, but like it feels like there was a lot more to say to say it like the next Great American Novel is actually the next Great American Movie. That feels like that maybe that ended in the '90s. Yeah, so it is it's possible. Although you could also say, you know, it it is interesting because as we've discussed in other other other forums, it's not that there aren't cultural artifacts that everybody participates in. Like, you know, everybody you know, I am told there's this young lady named Taylor Swift who is apparently extremely popular. And I am told that other than me, everybody follows her with a great deal of avid attention and I'm told that she has

06:11a new, I guess what, album and movie and Album. Was that? Album? Yeah. And there's a movie. There's a new movie coming out, too, I think, right? I I believe. I just remember I remember her breakthrough. She actually her first movie was the movie a couple years ago that came out that was so popular, her movie. There was she had a like a thing on Netflix that was sort of following her around that that kind of Okay, so okay, here's something I know about Taylor Swift that you don't, which is the only time in my life I'm going to be able to utter those words. She she did a famous thing actually in Hollywood in the movie industry. She actually she released I think that I think whatever that was, she released

06:46that actually in the theaters and it was actually very significant that she did that because she cut the deal directly with the theater owners. And I think it was a straight 50/50 revenue split with the theater owners and so and she she booked it directly and it was like on like it was like a huge release. It was like on 4,000 screens and it was like extremely popular and like all, you know, a lot of you know, Taylor Swift fans and a lot of you families with young girls like, you know, went to see it and I I remember it at the time because it was the same it it it it went big the same week that Martin Scorsese's movie Killers of the Flower Moon was in theaters and if you remember the the reviews of and Martin Scorsese's one

07:18of these filmmakers who's made these mythical movies, you know, that will for sure stand the test of time. And so, you know, Killers of the Flower Moon was a movie that he intended to do that and we and I don't I don't think it it did and we can talk about why not, but it was this movie about, you know, it was a period piece set in the 1920s about, you know, basically the rape and pillage of Native American, you know, missing out for resources by, you know, evil white people. And but it was a three-hour movie and it was apparently I didn't see it, but apparently it was extremely slow and then apparently it had these extremely long stretches of of silence cuz he was trying to get across this sense of like awe and grandeur and

07:51like emotional impact and apparently what would happen is that movie would be playing adjacent to the Taylor Swift movie and the Taylor Swift movie was so loud that whenever he would go to the silent part, you would just hear Taylor Swift pounding away on stage. Um Probably helps the movie out. Probably helps the movie out a little bit. Arguably arguably improved the movie from from from from from what I heard. You know, filled in the missing soundtrack. So anyways, there are still mechanical issues with with reproduction of these things, but um how did I get on that? Um So anyway, the point is there are, you know, there there are these things, you know, there are we do have cultural artifacts that sort of have, you know,

08:25almost universal, you know, attention. It's just a To me it's just a question of like, okay, like where are the like let's just say true arts like with a capital A is the thing that not only captures the popular imagination, like not only the people really experience, but also is the thing that actually has the lasting impact such that in 10 years and 20 years and 50 years and 100 years like people are still discussing it. And is it and you know, maybe a couple things you could you could say. One is like as time passes, the sort of most important cultural artifacts are sort of continuously reinterpreted, right? And so the the way that it comes across when it's released is not the same way that

08:55it comes across 5 or 10 years later and then 20 years later and and then sort of each new generation that discovers it, you know, maybe interprets it and talks about it in a different way. And then yeah, and then and then so basically like capital A art is is the ability to do that. And so like I like for sure it's true that the audience overall has fragmented. For sure it's true that like the internet, you know, has like, you know, created is sucking away, you know, just enormous amounts of time and attention from movies. You know, it's it's certainly true that, you know, the business pressures in Hollywood that we can talk about are, you know, are probably more intense than ever. But it is but it is still true that I think it

09:27is still possible to do what we're describing. And and again, we'll talk about this more, but yeah, I think we we'd all agree Tarantino, you know, was able to do this with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood not that recently. So anyway, maybe we can say I still hold out hope that this is possible. Like I I think this is the thing that that that that the best filmmakers in the world in the country really ought to be able to do. Would you would you agree with that or do you think it's do you think that's that's too optimistic? I hope. I mean I I think I'm a little more pessimistic than you that I do think Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is the last American movie. But for different reasons probably. Like

09:57I think not only what you know it's like again like Tarantino is you know this I think he has one more film in him as he says but that was really his his final opus right like the penultimate film is the the that that was what he had been kind of moving towards and I think he said his last film is going to be a much kind of scaled down smaller sort of film when he decides to do it. But like I think there's something about 2019 in particular. There were so many great films in 2019. There was 1917 Parasite won the Oscar stole it from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood in my opinion but still was like a decent film like there were a lot of great films in 2019 and then like just a memory hole of like what

10:34great film has come out since then. Like I I some something happened with COVID where we stopped going to the theater and it does kind of map to that you know no one goes to the theater anymore but it's also like something happened in Hollywood which I know we want to get your take on what happened in Hollywood because it does feel like there's you know the the scripts that are being written the the types of things that are being made today are very very different than what was happening in 2018 2019. Yeah so just spend a moment let's spend a moment on the state of Hollywood for for people who don't track it and so there's a bunch of things. So yeah look the theater business has obviously taken

State of Hollywood and streaming economics

11:02a giant hit kind of in the wake of COVID. You know COVID was like this big you know was this big step down you know because the theaters you know were closed longer than everything else and then there there was this there's been this question ever since of kind of how to re-engage those audiences and get them to go back to the theater and you know that you know maybe that's just a secular change that most of the people being on their phones or whatever. You know having said that it's not quite you know I don't think a complete explanation for what's happened to the art form and and the reason for that is the the the length of time that it takes to actually make a movie right and so the movies that showed up

11:28in the theater in 2019 got greenlit in you know call it 2015 or 2016 you know they got staffed in 2016 2017 and then they got executed in like 20 you know basically 2017 2018 and and then they went through you know editing and post-production and so forth and you know for for big movies that's you know that whole process is like a two-year process and then and then there's the long run up to release with the marketing campaign and you know all the you know put the actors on the road and do all the stuff and so there's like a whatever is four-month ad campaign or whatever and so you know by the time you go through that process you know start to end it's like four or five years and so for once upon a time to show I don't

12:02know exactly when it was greenlit but for it to for when it to for it to show up in 2019 meant that basically it the making of it the backstory probably starts you know no no later than 2015. And and and I just bring that up which means the movies that hit the theaters in 2021 started in like 2017 right and the movies that are showing up today started in 2020. Right and so so it's it's so the the the COVID explanation is not sufficient for what we've seen in the last five years because those movies were greenlit under conditions of COVID. Those movies were greenlit under conditions of pre-COVID. And so what whatever changes have taken place which which we can talk about I think start you know probably started

12:36around 2015. And and what what is your theory around why things really started changing in the 2020 decade of film? Yeah so again let me let me give you know again sort of maximum maximum you know kind of you know kind of respect here which is like there's no question a couple things. So just the secular changes. So one thing is look the streaming revolution has had a very big impact and and the streaming revolution hit Hollywood incredibly hard very positively for a stretch basically through the 2010s because the all the companies that were engaged in the streaming wars started spending just unprecedented amounts of money on on on televisions and shows of all shows and movies of all kinds and so there was

13:09just a giant flood of money. And I would say the mood in Hollywood I don't know whatever eight years ago or something six years ago was you might even describe as euphoric from a business standpoint just cuz like I mean the big thing was when Netflix scaled up to the point where they were spending like 20 billion dollars a year on on content which is just like this you know this giant flood of money to everybody else. And there were like you know whatever a dozen streaming companies or whatever all the different platforms that wanted to compete. And and so that money kind of took off like a rocket and then what's happened is as the streaming as the streamers are consolidating as the streaming wars are

13:36are kind of rationalizing that money got pulled back. That was a big you know kind of financial blow and then the other thing that streaming did that has really affected things a lot in in Hollywood in a very negative way which is streaming cut off the financial upside to the films and TV and so films used to when they were hits they they first they would sell a lot of box office and then they would and then they would sell like the television rights you know ultimately the streaming rights and then and then they'd have this long after market where they would you know sell DVDs. You know video tape rentals in the 80s and 90s and then DVDs in the 2000s and 2010s and so if you had a movie that was

14:12a hit like it could run and you know it could run for years generating just like enormous amounts of revenue and cash. And then same thing with TV shows you know it used to be a successful TV show the line I think was six seasons and a movie where if it got to like whatever 100 episodes or something it would enter syndication and then you could sell it for hundreds of millions of dollars and there would be all this upside for the people involved in creating it. And what happened with streaming and the economics of streaming is those those forms of upside just vanished cuz what happens is the streamers just buy the projects with like a cost plus model a lot of the time. And so you make the movie and you turn around you sell it

14:41for like a 10% profit margin to a streamer and then there's no after market cuz it's just a tile on the streaming service. Right and and and there's no you know there's no DVD sales there's no you know there's no TV syndication rights it those concepts are irrelevant. You know the streamer just has sort of a perpetual right or a 20-year right or whatever to be able to show it at that sort of fixed fee. And so so the upside got cut off and that that removed I think a lot of the economic incentive for kind of the wildcatting thing that Hollywood used to do more which is to really take you know take these chances on things you know like Hollywood used to work a lot like the venture capital model which is you know you

15:14you put 10 you know you put 10 lines in the water you get you know you get four bites and you get maybe one you know grand slam. And and you know if it works like that's a spectacular model but you the grand slam has to be able to scale economically in order for that that to happen and that's been cut off. So so so so that that that did not help and then and then there's the big thing capital B capital G capital T the big thing that happened of course which is Hollywood being on the vanguard of culture got hit by the thing the cultural change of the last decade like incredibly hard and you know we've we've talked a lot about how tech you know got hit by that incredibly hard and Hollywood got hit by it in a in a very

15:53intense way. You know nobody's ever quite figured out the right way to to talk about this to you know you know sometimes you say things like wokeness or or whatever you know in the 60s they would have called it the new left. There's actually a term is actually my my favorite term for it in Hollywood is there's a YouTube channel called Critical Drinker where he's a he's a movie reviewer is quite funny and and the Critical Drinker has been documenting basically the thing that hit Hollywood and he and in in I would say in quite scathing terms this whole time. What he calls it is he calls it the message. And it's it's the message with a capital M and it's actually really funny cuz for a long time people who watch the Critical

The message and the reign of terror

16:30Drinker he would never actually define what the message was. You know he would basically just say you know this this this movie has been affected by the message right. And of course and you you guys are all laughing cuz of course you already know what the message was. Everybody knows what the message was right all white people are racist all men are you know sexist you know everybody's a transphobe and you you just go America's you know a force for evil in the world right and you just go like right down the list of like everything that you know everything that you would expect you know from the last decade. You know America's you know in in a incipient fascist regime like it just the the entire package you know

17:01basically you know like whatever's on the front page of the New York Times that day right just the message. And so you know movies transformed themselves you know very large percentage of movies that could have been great you know you know in some alternate world could have been these these these these great works of art just just basically became became in some form political propaganda. Or or you could if you wanted to be more generous you could say that you know those will be the lasting artifacts of this last decade right which is historians will look back and they'll be like holy you know holy lord like these people were really like wrapped around the axle like a bunch of political issues like my my you know my goodness.

17:36And so they got hit hard by that and then the other thing and then that that led to in Hollywood you know what can only be described as a reign of terror which and this is something that occasionally Hollywood figures will talk about this in public although very rarely cuz they're they you know it's it's a very sensitive topic still but you know if if you know people in Hollywood you know basically it's through that through the especially the last you know eight years you know they they just they felt like if they made one misstep on you know casting or on the details in the script or use of words or the themes of a movie or anything you know they they just felt like they were in danger of just like a lightning

18:09strike from you know from from you know from from the sky just like striking them dead on the spot like you know and they they they had like you know everybody in Hollywood had like friends whose careers just got like completely detonated you know at one point you know in one unpredictable way or another. And again people have different opinions on this and you can argue it was it was long needed or whatever but like it it it became it became a thing and it like it basically changed the process of like how projects were selected it changed the changed the process of you know of but who made projects it changed the process of staffing it changed the process of screenwriting it changed it changed it changed it changed acting it

18:41it changed you know aesthetics it changed like almost every aspect of of how these projects get executed. And and I just go go through that because I think that that I think that's that's changing again right now like if you talk to the same people in Hollywood what they'll tell you basically is you know it's basically the end of this year that the fever has broken and there's a bunch of indications for that and then we're entering kind of the the sort of post sort of post message you know kind of era. And you know we we don't know what era we're heading into maybe there's a new message or something but like we're we're there's a phase shift that's underway. But but that phase shift is going to

19:13take time because it takes time to make movies right. The movies that are greenlit today right are not going to come out you know until like whatever 20 it takes 2027 2028 soonest and so so we're in this like liminal period or this interstitial period where for the next like three years we're going to get like a thousand movies that have like the message and they're all going to act like the message is like brand new and fresh and nobody's ever heard it before cuz they you know they all pretend that this is like some big revelation that like all white people are racist right again every movie and there's going to be like a thousand more of those in the next three years and they're just going to land like an absolute thud right like

19:51cuz it's just like if you wanted that message, you got it, right? If you already saw a thousand movies to say you like the next thousand movies don't contribute to that, right? And and just just to knock on one and he's a brilliant filmmaker, but I I just saw the new Paul Thomas Anderson movie one battle after another and it like it's literally like a time capsule. It's like a 2022 time capsule. It's literally like time frozen in 2022. And in 2022, this movie would have been like, "Oh my god, like this movie is like got the message, right? It's just like everything about it. We could we could spend hours just on this movie. And it lands today and you're just watching and you're just like, "Wow,

One Battle After Another

20:28that was a weird time." Like, "Oh my goodness." Yeah, I want to I want to put more about this movie cuz I think it was Brett Easton Ellis who came out and was the first person, you know, cuz it's getting all the Oscar platitudes like oh, it's it's definitely in line for the Oscar, right? And he came out and he's like, "It feels musty." Right? And I should get the actual like language he used cuz it was much worse than that, but he said it's like a musty film. It's exactly what you said. It's 2022. Like this was greenlit at a very different time and now it's come out and like the world's moved on. And so I'm I'm curious like do you think that that that we're still going to pretend these movies are

20:59great even though they don't match with our time or is there going to be sort of a three-year period where we are allowed to say actually like that that doesn't make any sense anymore and like maybe that movie shouldn't have been made. Yeah, so this is it's a this one is a complicated this one is a complicated scenario. So just on the movie itself, the movie itself is actually and it's it's quite like I quite enjoyed watching it. I quite enjoyed watching it and I just for ironic reasons, but it just also watching it of like how how this happened. Like and and there's a bunch bunch of reasons. And again, the filmmakers one of the one of the you know, one of the great filmmakers of the era Paul Thomas Anderson, you know, he

21:30made There Will Be Blood and he made, you know, Boogie Nights and like all these, you know, by the way, he made right there he named two movies Boogie Nights and There Will Be Blood are two movies that are like in the in the they're going to be in the Hall of Fame of the art form where it's like, you know, a hundred years from now people are going to be like, "Wow, you know, that's what that culture was about." And so he he's he's he he is one of those guys and clearly that's what he was going for in this movie. It is a weird movie in that it's it's it's partially based on a famous Thomas Pynchon novel called Vineland, which is Thomas Pynchon's movie is Thomas Pynchon's novel basically about the it's essentially I mean it's

22:01it's essentially veiled through whatever, but it's basically like about the days of rage, you know, the Brian Burrough book or the you know, the Weather Underground. You know, basically the the violent social revolution, you know, basically from the far left in the '60s and and then sort of what happened in the aftermath of that. And so like that that's the theme of the novel, but it's very much a novel of and about the 1960s. It's not considered you know, most people don't consider it maybe the the best Pynchon novel, but like it's it's a good mid-tier one and it's it's in the pantheon. And it it turns out to have been Paul Thomas Anderson's favorite novel. He'd been trying to make a version of it for 20

22:30years or whatever. And but what he did basically was he he kept the he kept the very basic kind of plot framework set up, but then he completely updated it for the message, right? And so like it has like specifically it has a whole bunch of like it has this whole basically it's a racial, you know, it has a whole racial kind of plot structure to the whole thing. And and and social in in ways that are fairly amazing. That that are completely based on the current moment you know, circa 2022. And so it's a little bit like the 1960s it's like the it's like the it's like the it's like the early 2020s filtered through the 1960s and so it's just a little bit odd with that. Arguably it is kind of salient to our times cuz I think if you

23:11were to retitle the movie, you would just title it Antifa the movie. Like it's like it's like a full-throated celebration of basically violent social change. Violent social revolution like and it's it's completely unapol like I'm going to spoil I'm going to spoil it. I'm just going to spoiler alert. Yeah, by the end Spoiler alert for moderating the situation. Everyone's already seen it here, so. So it's a 2-hour 45-minute movie that I went by the way and I went to the theater and I paid full price and like I smuggled in my snacks and like the whole thing. I go through the whole thing and I'm like hoping he's such a brilliant filmmaker. I'm hoping it's a subversive movie, right? And so I'm kind of hoping

23:42that the whole thing is like by the end he's like really like he's like, "Okay, like these Weather Underground people who like went on the run for 20 years and destroyed their lives and like, you know, we're we're always, you know, basically you know, crazy privileged children like raging out against their you know, their basically their parents and blowing [ __ ] up and killing people and this whole thing was a giant mistake." And and I was kind of hoping that that would you know, that would be kind of the way that you could tell the story. No, no, no, he's just like, "Oh, no, that was great. Like like that was fantastically good. These people are amazing. Like they're they're these are the myths and legends

24:08of our time." He clearly wants to make these people into mythical figures. And then at the end and then at the end it's just very clear that he's like, "Yes, and I completely endorse and support all of this. And this is exactly what this is these are the role models that children should have and it's fantastic." Right? And so you know, in a this is one of those movies where in a perverse way maybe it maybe it stands the test of time that way where it's just like, "Wow, these people had like these people have constructed a mythos, you know, by by by by by in which violent robbery and like violent robbery and murder basically is great." Right? Like it's wonderful. Right? And so you know, maybe that's you know, I don't know,

24:39maybe it's like reading Emma Goldman Emma Goldman essays a century later or something it's just like, "Wow, these people kind of really got carried away." But like, you know, it's it's not what it could have been. Anyway, this this is the Okay, so so one is it's it's out of time. Although you know, hopefully it won't become more relevant. And then the other is again that the business aspect of it which is you know, being a great filmmaker. This is the one that he got like the real budget for us. This is like a much bigger budget than any of the other movies that he's made. And with that he was you know, the cast is like just incredible. Like so it's you know, Leonardo DiCaprio and Sean Penn and Benicio Del Toro and like all

25:10these amazing you know, actors and actresses. But as a consequence, I don't have the numbers on top of my head, but you know, it it was estimated to cost something on the order of 200 million dollars to make. And then it's it's more money on top of that for you know, for for advertising. The the challenge and then you know, it's got Leo you know, he's by the way, he's fantastic in it. Very entertaining, but by the way, what I don't know, yeah, spoiler alert. One of one of the things about the message it's got the message. So the Leo character that plays one of these basically he's a bomber basically in hiding for like 18 years or whatever and he's got this daughter is the daughter of his his his

25:47his lover who's this was this you know, great like basically you know, violent revolutionary of the era. And they've been hiding for 18 years and he's like completely fried his brain like you know, drugs and alcohol. He's just like you know, he's completely blown out as a person. He spends the entire movie running around like in his bathrobe like you know, basically basically high. And if you actually watch the movie carefully all the way through it actually turns out nothing he actually does at any point in the plot ever actually matters. Like like he he plays no actual role in the plot. And so it's this like incredible performance and it's incredibly it's incredibly you know, dynamic and entertaining performance.

26:21The movie the movie's going to sell do well overseas as a result of that cuz people love Leo. But like again, it's consistent with the message of of course the white male lead can have no actual role to play in the plot. Like it it you know, that's definitely not allowed. Like in in the climax, he literally shows up at the end of the climax and just like, "I'm here." And like it's like all over, right? You know, like everybody's dead. Like it's all it's just done. So so anyway, it's going to do reasonably well because because you know, because it has Leo, but it's still going to lose like a hundred hundred twenty million dollars or you know, the estimates that that I'm hearing which is you know, a

26:54pretty pretty big loss you know, for for for a movie like this. The the the fear in Hollywood always is when there's when there's a movie that loses that much money you know, will the executive greenlight new original movies? And you know, so hopefully they do hopefully the lesson is drawn from this is you know, basically it's is is is the is the Brett Easton Ellis point which is the the what is what he said the fussiness or the um Musty. He said it's a musty film. Musty mustiness, yeah. Hopefully the conclusion is don't make movies that are going to be musty when they're released, right? Like you know, you you didn't have you know, you didn't have to greenlight the thousandth movie with the message in 2022. Like

27:28that was a choice. You know, so maybe don't do that anymore. You know, but but you know, but but but maybe it's time to move on. Let me highlight the movie on the other side that I think is very underappreciated and I think has I you can say maybe at best right now it's becoming a cult classic. It's just not that big of a hit, but like I have hopes for it and I hope it becomes one of these mythic movies which is Eddington. And let me let me start by asking have you guys both at this point seen Eddington? I haven't. I haven't. Okay, well you're you're in for a treat. So so my opinion my opinion first opinion Eddington is the first capital A art art great art movie I I I I feel like I've seen since Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

Eddington

28:02and I I think it clears the bar. And I would start by saying it's not a perfect movie like you know, there you know, there there are things about it that I'm you know, I'm sure five years from now or whatever even the maker of the movie might look back and say you know, could have done things differently. So but but it's like it's it's like it has the opposite of the musty feeling. It has the feeling of oh, I'm actually finally seeing on screen real people again. Like finally. Like real people set in the real world doing real things where you're just like, "Wow, like that that I'm actually seeing the world that we've actually spent the last five years living in." And it's the first movie like that that that that I've seen in a

28:36long time. And specifically it's the first movie and it's amazing that this is the case even with the time scales that we're talking about. It's the first movie in which like the George Floyd riots actually happened. It's the first movie in which COVID actually happened. It's the first movie in which social media actually happened. It's the first movie in which wokeness actually happened. It's the first movie in which Trump actually happened. Like and it's actually and this is why I'm sort of having the reaction to the movie that I'm having which is just like it's the only movie in which any of those things actually happened in the universe of the movie. Cuz like I don't know you tell unless I missed something like every

29:11other movie that's come out that's been significant over the last five years like it's as if none of that ever happened. And and and and my explanation for that is these are all the hot button issues that if you screwed them up in in Hollywood, you got your career destroyed. Right? So if if you if you said the wrong thing about COVID lockdowns or vaccines, if you said the wrong thing about Trump, if you said the wrong thing about the Floyd riots, if you said the wrong thing about wokeness, like your career going to be obliterated. So we have like a generation of creatives who basically just like got taught do not touch the stove. And and the auteur the auteur who made Eddington, it's an auteur auteur

29:44movie this guy uh Aster. He's this young auteur a very talented guy. He basically was like, "I'm just going to grab the stove with both hands and I'm just going to like hold on for dear life." And it's like a roller coaster ride through every crazy [ __ ] thing that happened in the last 5 years, and I was just like howling with laughter. Let me put it this way, me and the other four people in the theater who were watching it were just like, "Wow!" It's amazing. It's finally happening. Other bright side of this, too, is that it's not unknown actors, right? It's It's Joaquin Phoenix, Emma Stone. Um and and what's what's really interesting about it, as you said, like there's most media or, you know, most most movies try

30:21to kind of gloss over social media or things where it's like actually hard to depict it on a screen. Like there's nothing really interesting about looking at your phone. But like getting a COVID nostril test is actually like very funny. And I know like the trailer begins with like pulling up in this like old car, getting the nostril test. It's just like It's just like a funny thing. And so it's like it's good that some of these more like absurd things that have happened in the last couple years, like they're actually very cinematic. And they should be put on like they should be put like great filmmakers should be should showing them cuz they're so funny. Yeah. So I'll do a couple again, I'm going to blow through the spoilers.

30:53Yeah, so the the opening scene is Joaquin Phoenix Joaquin Phoenix plays this basically this crusty sheriff of this small town in New Mexico called Eddington. Which actually kind of reminds me of the town I grew up in. And and the the key thing for the thing is Eddington, like there's just nothing in the town. Like it's like 600 people. It's just like the streets are empty, the stores are empty. I mean, it's like a town that was empty before COVID, right? And then and then the lockdowns hit and then it became even more desolate. There's nothing happening and you can just walk around and there's nobody there. And so Joaquin Phoenix plays the sheriff who's like this crusty unreconstructed and he's not really a Trump supporter

31:25per se, but he's like this sort of crusty, you know, kind of traditionalist, you know, kind of kind of guy. He's He's the kind of guy who just really does not want things to change that much. Um and like everything is changing around him. And it starts It starts in It starts with COVID. It starts in like April of 2020. Um and he's sitting in this pickup truck in the middle of nowhere and he's like eating a sandwich or whatever. And the this other truck pulls up next to him and he sees these uh, you know, it's it's in New Mexico, so there's these the town that he's in are adjacent to the these tribal lands. And so these two young tribal cops, you know, Native American cops pull up in a in a in a

31:54pickup truck next to him and they're like, you know, they're like young and, you know, let's say cooler than he is. Um and and they're they like they and they're both wearing their masks, right? And and and literally they're like, "Roll down your window." And he rolls his window. And literally they're from their pickup truck into his, they're like, "You have to put your mask on." [Laughter] And you know, it's like literally it was like for me it was like, you know, it was like you know, the heaven has opened, the angels are singing. I'm finally seeing a capital M movie. Like this and, you know, like he's a brilliant and so like he he gets across like in one look the feeling that I think we've all had for the last 5

32:30years, which is like like, "Fuck off." [ __ ] It's the and that's just the opening scene and then it cascades through all the COVID. And then it cascades through and then I'll, you know, spoiler alert again, or spoiler, it cascades through the through the Floyd riots hit midway through the movie. And then all the and then, you know, the the um the of course, you know, the local high school's like you know, the local high school's like 100% white. Um you know, it's New Mexico. And you know, and then the white kids basically become like obsessed with racial justice even though they literally don't I mean black I mean, start like basically having like full-blown riots like, you know, in in in the main street and like breaking

33:05store windows, like crashing everything. And there's one there's one black there's one black person in town who's the sheriff's deputy, who's Joaquin's deputy, who's a military vet. And he's just like, "What the hell?" He's like like why why do I have to defend the grocery store from the white kids like trying to burn it down on my behalf? Like what the [ __ ] Anyway, so so so the whole movie is like that. And then maybe maybe just one more thing about it is just hysterical. Eric, this is a good time for you to take a drink of water cuz you're going to love this part. Um this is a good for this fit take out. Pedro Pascal is in it. Um and at first you would think that Pedro Pascal plays the mayor. At first you're like, "Oh,

33:41this is going to be a clear setup uh where, you know, Joaquin Phoenix is like the retrograde right-winger and Pedro and you know, Pascal's like the voice of reason." It's like, "No, no." He's Gavin Newsom. Like I swear to God he's Gavin Newsom. Like 100% Pedro Pascal is playing him. What what does he do? I I don't even want to like it's it's it's I don't even want to like I don't I'm not even intending to badmouth Gavin. I'm just saying like or or just every other politician, whatever is your idea of a politician who's like Gavin Newsom, like Pedro Pascal Pedro Pascal plays him. And just like could not be looking down on the the the the the sheriff character with more contempt. Um like just absolutely just like, you

34:20know, and then and then vice versa. And then and then basically what happens is that, you know, they they effectively So that that So the the the sheriff gets frustrated by the whole thing, the lockdowns and everything. And so he he decides to run for mayor and so that it becomes a fight, you know, between the two of them. Um Which by the way, it's just the beginning of the movie. Like it it then gets actually quite a bit more elaborate after that. Um but the big thing about it is it's just it's like a full it's just like an absolute full frontal examination from top to bottom. And and like it pulls in it it like Katherine doesn't have It's interesting. It doesn't have a lot of like It doesn't

34:49have like a lot of on-screen graphics of like people on social media, but it does have this recurring thing, which again is just it's incredible how rare this is in movies. Or maybe other filmmakers haven't figured out how to do it, which is these characters live in a world of social media. Um and so he does this great like when a character in this movie wakes up, he rolls over and he checks his phone. Like like it's it's it's our it's our world. And and he does I think a very good job of showing the interleaving back and forth of how people are And again, this is like a, you know, town rural town in the middle of nowhere. People are living this, you know, this double life that that we all now live,

35:19which is we've got our in-person life and then we've got our online life and there's this, you know, question of which one is more real. And and and this is the first movie I've seen that actually just And And it doesn't incorporate that. Like it's not social media the movie, like that's not what the movie's about, but it's just kind of it just kind of shows naturally how the nature of reality has changed around that and then how it how how how it influences real world behavior. Um as anyway, so I can't recommend it highly enough. >> Isn't Emma Stone's character like taken by conspiracy that she finds online or like like what what is her her role in the movie? Yeah, well, so this is part of the So and and and

35:50and so at this point I'm like grabbing the stove with with both hands also. Like she she plays like she plays like the upper middle class white woman who's just like racked with anxiety. And and this is like the this is the plot arc. Like she's just like she's like incredibly deeply unhappy. Um and so yeah, so she gets locked into like online conspiracies and then there's this whole thing. I don't even I don't even want to spoil the thing that happens with her cuz it's it's quite it's quite something and it's quite a plot arc of its own. But you know, she she has her own her own kind of parallel life that kind of unfolds through this. And she's cuz she's Joaquin Phoenix's husband. And like and he loves her and

36:23has absolutely no idea what She has absolutely no clue what's going on in her head. Like he like married to her, he loves her. She's clearly extremely depressed. She's clearly extremely anxious. He has no ability whatsoever to understand her communication with her. And then her mom, you know, her mother, you know, her mother she's, you know, very close with her mother. Her mother keeps showing up, you know, lives in town, just and just [ __ ] hates him and just is like scathing towards him. And he's like, "What you know, what's [ __ ] I'm doing my best. I can't read her mind. Like I don't know what's going on." And so, you know, it's got that, you know, it's it's got like a whole it's got like a whole it's got like a

36:54whole arc there. Um And then and then it's got another one more. It's got the There's there's the in the little in the little high school, um there's a there's a a very attractive, you know, black black high school girl who basically like becomes like completely committed to social justice um and it's going on and on. She's got like all the, you know, patriarchy. She's got all the talking points. Like she's, you know, she's ready for her, you know, sociology degree. Um and and then all the all the like boys and men like orbiting around her basically like become obsessed with like there's a there's a there's a white male high school kid who just like is like just generally oblivious and he he like has a thing for her. And so like he

37:30starts reading Angela Davis um like in an attempt to attempt to basically become attractive for um and and anyway, so like and he starts spouting off about white privilege and the whole thing. Does it work? Uh um Cuz that's always the question. It doesn't work. It doesn't It doesn't work. It doesn't work for the purposes that he it doesn't work for the purposes that he intends it for, but he he let's say he he ultimately yeah, he has a very successful, I would say, plot arc of his own. Um yes, he he actually plays plays a major role in the in the end. He goes on his own journey and plays a major role in the end of the movie. Um anyway, so it's just like it's one of these movies and, you know, people

38:14have like, you know, different critiques of it and it's a little bit of a, you know, I don't know what they call it, like a shaky dog story where like as the movie goes, like increasingly crazy things are happening and and and things get kind of, you know, they they get kind of deranged in in in sort of a way that, you know, is is you know, you could argue is like truly reflective of how deranged things got or you could say, you know, maybe he gets a little bit carried away, but like it's just it it directly it's it's it's such it's such a direct engagement with our times that that that and and to me it was just like, "Wow, I'm actually seeing on screen our world as opposed to these the sort of

38:44even this manufactured view of a world that doesn't exist or this sort of manicured view where these topics have just become untouchable." And so anyway, so my my hope is it's the beginning of a wave of Like there's so much material. You know, this is the old Tom Wolfe thing, which is like what did he Most Tom Wolfe's term He said, "What was it? The His term is the eight There's the eight There's the is the the beast with eight billion feet?" Or what was his term? Like the mass of humanity? He had this term where he's like Like the Tom Wolfe always had this point of view, you know, the great novelist, journalist. The most interesting topic in the world is like the human race, right? Like the the the

39:14collective behavior of eight billion people on planet Earth is like the most interesting thing in the world. And like the eight billion people on planet Earth are always getting up to like the craziest [ __ ] And like if you want to like write great fiction He was always telling people who wanted to write fiction. He's like, "If you want to write great fiction, you want to go out and you want to be with the people and you want to actually observe what's happening. And it's so crazy that if you just like write it down, you know, that that's how you that's how you like write the great American novel. Like that's what you do." And so he would famously do this. And so when he did Bonfire of the Vanities, he immersed himself in

39:40Wall Street. And when he did Man in Full, he immersed himself in, you know, Atlanta real estate. And when he when he, you know, he did all the, you know, back back to blood, he immersed himself in the in the Miami, you know, the Miami culture and, you know, he he would go do this. And of course, you know, the his critique was, you know, the new generation novelists, they sit in their apartment in Brooklyn, you know, you know, you know, with their typewriter, you know, and and and they they introspect, right? And and that's why there's no more great American novels. And so, like Ari Aster is like the film he's like the filmmaker who got that I don't know if he ever got, you know, read Thomas Wolfe or not, but like where he

40:09he he he understands that. He's like, oh, go immerse yourself in in in in in what's actually happening in real life and trans like that. And he's he's he was, I don't know, uniquely able to do it, uniquely able to get away with it. I'm hoping he's the beginning of a wave of these. And you know, they don't you know, it doesn't all have to be about COVID or the Floyd riots or whatever. There's many, many other topics you could do. But like, you know, there should be a great there should be a great movie for every basically significant social cultural thing that happens. And and and that and there's those opportunities are just laying all there's like hundreds or thousands of those opportunities just laying on the

40:40ground right now, you know, for for for the creatives who can go pick them up. And and again, by the way, every creative writing this hearing this is going to say, yeah, no no [ __ ] But you know, will the studios greenlight it and pay for it? And that's that would be my other hope, which is, you know, some combination of the bold executives at the streamers and at the at the at the studios. You know, example, you know, David David Ellison, you know, who's clearly very very, you know, brilliant guy, you know, taking over Paramount and maybe maybe buying more studios like, you know, guys like him are in a position to greenlight an entirely new generation of movie that could be both commercially successful

41:09and could be true art. Yeah. Yeah, no. So, I guess is it your view that like we'll have this like 5 to 7 year window of musty films that people like kind of pretend are decent, but then like we we kind of get the Addingtons as well where you're where you're going to see things open up again. So, we'll have this sort of like nice period of weirdness. Like I actually think looking back 50 years from, you know, 50 years from today, it'll be fun to look back at these films and be like, that was wild that that was what we were talking time. So, I but your your view is that that it is going to open up. That there there will be more Addingtons. There'll be more extremes and it's not just going to be

41:42one battle after another kind of the message. Yeah, so just quickly one more thing about battle after another. So, the critics are rapturous about this movie. Right? And so, if you read Rotten Tomatoes, the critics are you know, it's like 98% or whatever. And the critics are just like, this is like the most brilliant movie of all time. This completely captures, you know, yes, this is like this is like the ultimate chronicling of like America's you know, descent into being, you know, the Fourth Reich. Like, you know, this is yes, this is like absolutely glorious, absolutely revolutionary. violence should be glorified. Like the the critics are like all in, right? And and and you know, the movie critic community has like gone

42:16hard in on this just like, you know, just like so many other creative communities. And so, they're all in. By the way, this movie I don't know if it's going to, but like it wouldn't be surprising if it sweeps the Oscars, right? It's just like, you know, the best the best the best movie ever made. You know, I and and but but now it's going to just going to be like every everybody everybody everybody who has been up been through this, you know, spin cycle for the last eight years is, you know, they people are onto it, you know, including the audience. And so and so I and I think even the people participating in kind of what is already kind of an orgy of kind of hyper exaggerated critical admiration are

42:42probably all realizing that they're, you know, fundamentally being dishonest. But um you know, like so so Catherine, your point like, yeah, that machine like the the the the sort of the message machine like that machine is continuing to spin for now. It's just very clear that like there's just like smoke and parts flying off of it. Like it's just like, you know, it is it is it is going to it is going to rattle to a stop. And then if you if you talk to people in Hollywood, basically what they'll tell you is by by the way, independent of people's politics, what the sort of I would say sharp people in Hollywood generally all say is, yeah, the the cultural fever has broken. You can now make you can now get

Comedies return: Naked Gun

43:12movies greenlit today that you could not get greenlit two years ago. Specifically, and this this is amazing that this is good, but like you can have comedies again. Uh Like they actually say by the way, they say this. Like they're like, we we can now make comedies again. You can have funny movies. Right? Because to have funny movies, you need to poke a sacred cows, right? Like the thing that makes comedy funny is like when it's when it's like subversive when it when it when it like, you know, when it touches a nerve. Like that that's that's, you know, that's what the adult comedy is. And and you know, you just could not make a funny movie for the last eight years. Like it was impossible. It was

43:45way too risky. And and but what they're saying now is that you can. And then maybe the other single indicator, Catherine, of what's happening, which is Mel Gibson finally got greenlit to do his sequel to Passion of the Christ, which is the resurrection movie and which he's which he's making right now. At least my friends in Hollywood are like, yeah, that never would have happened. Like that never would have happened under a Kamala administration. That never would have happened without the election result. And again, these are not even people who are pro-Trump. It's just, okay. Like the national mood is shifting. We're not Yes, Mel Gibson of all of all people being like one of the clearly great filmmakers of of our of

44:18our time. And you know, and having all of the issues that Mel Gibson has. Like, yes, that guy should get to make a movie. And specifically, that guy should get to make that movie. And I that's an example of what I'm talking about is that that's possible this year in a way that it wasn't before. And the and the other thing that I think yesterday Young Washington came out, the the trailer, which Joel Shapiro, which again, is not Hollywood, it's based in Provo, but has proven that they can make very successful films for a different pocket of the country that actually likes patriotism. But I think in some ways like the the Top Gun success story, yes, it's nostalgia, but like the fact that it did so well at the

44:54box office shows that there is an appetite for totally different content. Like 50% of the country would love to see movies that are patriotic or about something, you know, a biopic in history that's really interesting about George Washington. So, I think in some ways it's like there's there is sort of this business case too of wow, like you know, the 50% of the country that's been starved for the content they want will actually pay to go to the theater and maybe we should support them. Yeah. To that end, Mark, do do the do the executives appreciate the Rotten Tomatoes phenomenon or just how distinct sort of the yeah, with the critics or even their own staff are from the actual audience? Yeah, they so they they live it. They

45:31they live it. And so, like I said, like for the last eight years, it's basically been a reign of terror. Um because the the these critics and and like who the the people these critics represent like have have the power of life and death over people's careers. And then they know the critics kind of went nuts. But you know, this is the problem with, you know, there's not that much they can do about it, right? The the critics the critics were able to succeed in their own field. Um you know, it's just like everything else that happened in media. The critics were able to succeed in their own field by kind of going arbitrarily wild. Um and then, you know, there was basically there was basically nothing

45:57that if you're a movie studio executive, there's really nothing you could do about it cuz, you know, what do you do about it if you if you ignore them, they you know, they attack you. If you engage with them, they attack you. If you attack them, they attack you back. Um and so, you know, there's been very little to do. And then, you know, the critics are not Well, okay. So, so that's been happening. And and you know, with and Hollywood like Silicon Valley and like every other industry, like there is insularity to it. And so, you know, this is a self-referential thing. And so, when you know, when the mood when when sort of opinion shapers, you know, move against you, you know, it it it becomes a it

46:24becomes a real problem. And and Hollywood, you know, people get fired, right? Like, you know, every studio executive kind of knows that at some point they're going to get fired. People get fired off of projects all the time. When people get fired, by the way, off of projects in Hollywood, like they may not, you know, they may not eat. They may not get another job for five, you know, for two years, for five years, or ever. Um and so, you know, it's it's it's a high-tension environment. Um And so, yeah, that I think I think they don't understand that. By the way, I also think that, you know, especially the sort of, you know, the boomer executives, the Gen X executives, you know, they'll also tell you the same

46:51thing you'll hear, you know, that you heard in the valley and in Washington and elsewhere, which is, wow, the young staff is really radicalized, right? And so, you know, so they're also afraid of their young staff. Um and then by the way, you know, they they're you know, these are mostly public companies. They're also afraid of their boards. The boards are afraid of the public shareholders. You know, the public shareholders radicalized. And so, it's a it's a very similar phenomenon to what happened in tech. Um which is kind of this this sort of collective I don't know, like wildness or you know, kind of kind of you know, kind of this this this this intensity thing, you know, kind of happened. And and and then it really

47:21couldn't be openly discussed for a long time and probably still can't. Like they probably still really can't talk about it in public. A few of them are starting to, but like not really. So, for the most part, the conversations are kind of in the background. But again, but against that, it's just like, okay, that that's that's broken a bit. And part of it also is just the business the business you know, the kind of business aspect of it. Which is I mean, the the the classic is, you know, the the big money maker in Hollywood for the last 20 years has been superhero movies. Um and and let's just say coincident with the beginning of the message is the all the you know, the results in those movies collapsed.

47:50Right? And so, and and and like at some point, you know, they they need to go sell some movie tickets. Like it it, you know, at some point they need to deliver revenue. And I and I I and I think they've gotten, I don't know, the message of the message, which is, you know, if if if if all you are is on board with the social trend, right? Especially, Catherine, your point, especially when that social trend gets old and it's no longer, you know, au courant. Like you you can't run a public company based on on on reviews, right? It it like at some point, butts do have to show up in seats. And so, I I think that that's also kicked in. And so, the the financial pressures are very painful right now. They're probably not helpful. I don't

48:23know, the financial pressures in Hollywood are are it's hard to say cuz on the one hand, when there's financial pressures in Hollywood, of course, the argument is fewer movies get get greenlit. And then and then the executives become more risk-averse in the kinds of movies they're willing to greenlight. But I think it also means that they are also less willing to greenlight projects that are being greenlit only for political reasons or only for social cultural reasons or only out of a sense of fear. And so, I don't know exactly how that balances, but hopefully hopefully things get more exciting. By the way, of course, the other big topic in Hollywood is AI. I was just going to ask Yeah, so that's the you know, that's the

48:55800 lb thing. And you know, and and you know, to their credit, they're you know, they're saying they're they're highly aware of it. They're highly alert alert to it. And then by the way, there are a bunch of filmmakers, including some folks that I know, that are like super excited. And so, there there are including some like I know of like two like A triple A list like director filmmakers, you know, top end people who are like very excited about what's possible. And are going to are going to fully embrace it. And there's there's a bunch of other people who are, you know, very excited. And so, so there's going to be an embrace by at least part. But there's also there's also, you know, there's a lot of, you

49:27know, Hollywood has always had kind of a fear-driven irrationality to new technologies. And there's some of that. And then and then there is this attachment in in is is actually very acute. There's this attachment of like AI politics to like woke politics. And so if if you're if you're still super woke, you're also like super anti-AI. Um and there are these like basically the it's basically like the woke activists have picked up AI as the new thing that they're going to agitate about. Um and so they're mounting basically already like pressure campaigns on the studios to like basically vow to never use AI. And at least so far the studios to their credit are like, "No, we're not going to do that." Um like we're we're we we we you

50:00know the studio So far I think the studio executives have all been consistent, which is like, "Look, we've always used technology. Um you know the movie camera itself is technology. Special effects, like we've we've always used technology. You know, video tapes, DVDs, streaming, these are all technologies. Um you know, every movie has CGI. We you know like that's you know, one of my little fun facts about the history of movies is Tron Tron was the first There's a big sequel for Tron that's out this week. The original Tron was 1980 82 um from from Disney and it was the first movie that had integrated use of computer graphics, which was the the big thing at the time. Um and um and as a consequence

50:33of that, Tron was disqualified from the Oscars um because they cheated uh by using computer graphics. Right? Right? And so and so you know, to go from the that world to the world in which every movie has CGI and and for the most part you don't even know that there's CGI in it. You just see a romantic comedy and they're using CGI to do all kinds of things in it and you don't even notice and it's just taken completely for granted. And so like I I I I think the studios the studios I think understand that. I think they're going to they're going to actually embrace AI enthusiastically. But there's going to be this there's going to be this like there at least there's an attempt to like gin up a moral panic around it

51:04and try to you know, basically keep it out. And I I don't think it's going to work cuz I think the economics are too compelling. But but anyway, but then the other thing with AI is of course AI is going to be super helpful to existing filmmakers. But the other thing is AI for sure and we you know, we see this especially in this last last in this last couple weeks with the new version of Sora. Um and and a lot of these other new things that are coming out, AI is going to make a whole new kind of filmmaker possible to exist for the first time. Which is the filmmaker with no visual skill. Right? Or access to a set or to a camera or to actors, but with an idea. Um like you like people are going to be

51:38able to make you know, it's going to start with shorts and animated things and so forth. But it's going to it's going to work its way up to full movies. Um and so you know, people with a people people who otherwise would be limited to only being novelists or being maybe people who do graphic novels. Um but are creative geniuses um are are going to be able to actually make full movies with AI and I and again I think I think that's a reason for like profound optimism. I think we're going to get like completely new kinds of you know, basically film entertainment from people who otherwise never would would would have been able to to access the medium. And I and I think that also is I'm very positive on that.

52:08Can we add because you you brought it up um on comedy? I I know you saw an N or the the new Naked Gun film. What what were your thoughts on is comedy working? Is it is it does it have to be nostalgic for it to work? But maybe tell us a little bit about that film and and whether it's a a reason to be positive on comedies in the future. Yeah, so I thought Naked Naked Gun I thought was actually a little bit of a minor miracle. Um so uh for a couple couple reasons. So one is look, it's it's it's a sequel to movies from like 40 years ago. Um and so you know, how many people even remember the original Naked Gun movies? It actually turns out a lot of people do. They're they're beloved movies, but also it turns out

52:40like you can you you can make an Like it's it's great. It's it's great. It's a great comedy. It's like a fantastic comedy. It's very funny. Um uh it worked it worked. It worked commercially. It worked it worked artistically. It it it it it it honored the original material, but it was also like it was it was deliriously loopy in its own way. I highly recommend it. It's it's it's very funny. Um but it actually is striking to that point. Um it it it also like like anything it's also a post-message movie. Um and and and this is actually and maybe this is a reason for optimism, which is again if you go back through the time scale like that thing was greenlit no later than '22, probably in '21. So at the height of every movie has

53:14to have the message, um that that movie was still greenlit and it got all the way through and out the other side and there's not a trace of it in it. Um and so like it's it's a pure it's a pure comedy. It's a pure comedy. It's it's like the original movies. It's a pure comedy. It's a pure absurdist uh uh you know, kind of modern Three Stooges you know, kind of style comedy. Liam Neeson of course plays against plays against type uh and is of course a brilliant comedian and and just kills it. And then Pamela Anderson um you know, the the great icon of you know, 1980s you know, femininity. Um you know, it's her big it's her big you know, starring role and she just like absolutely is just fantastic. Like she's

53:46just like absolutely kills it. She's hysterical. Um and she's just like and she's just like there as a person and like she's not you know, she's not wearing you know, she's just like you know, she's she's like you know, she's like just like full woman um in natural form. Um and is is it's it's great. Um and you know, and it's you know, it's like there's any there's there's there's no there's none of the casting let's say you know, aspects that kind of cause problems. Um you know, there's none of the script there's no script it's just it's just like an extremely well-executed like it very easily could have been made in 2012 or 2008 or 2002. Um now look, it it doesn't you know it doesn't move the artistic ball forward.

54:22Right? It's a very well-executed example of a genre. Um but it but it is a movie that it was it was somehow able to escape all of the traps that all of these other movies have gotten into. Um uh and and it was able to make it out and to be a big commercial hit. And and again I think I think the I think the executives are are are very encouraged by that. Um the audience is still there for that. I'll just give you the it does it doesn't really have any like racial politics or whatever, but it does have it it it did have one thing, which is for people who haven't seen it, it was famously a movie originally that one of the one of the major stars of it was O.J. Simpson. Um playing a character named Nordberg um

54:54who got into all kinds of unlikely trouble. Um and um uh so they do this scene where just spoil one thing cuz it was it was extremely funny. Um Liam Neeson So Neeson Liam Neeson plays the son of the original you know, main main guy Leslie Nielsen in the movie. So Frank Frank Drebin and then and then Leslie Liam Neeson plays Frank Drebin Jr. And then uh and then Liam's sidekick plays the son of of of of of uh of Leslie Nielsen's sidekick in the original movie. And then and then there and then there's a young black guy on the team. Um and and you know, normally in a movie it's like, "Okay, of course there's like a young black guy on the team." But then they do it they do it really well. Uh which is they've got the out in the out

55:29in the hallway of the police station in the movie, they've got Leslie Nielsen's photo up on the you know, he passed away. So they they got his photo up and and uh Liam Neeson does this thing where he like kneels down and he's like, "Oh, you know, father I'm trying to live up to your you know, expectation and trying to be a great police officer." and he's like sobbing. There's tears and you know, next to it is like his sidekick with the sidekick's photo and he's like, "Oh, father I miss you so much and I I want to be a great cop." And then there's you know, the the the the the black kid and he's looking up at a at a photo of O.J. Uh and he just and he just look at the camera and he just goes

Fantastic Four and pro-family film

56:04Perfect. Perfection. Absolutely perfect. Yes. So yeah, comedies are good. By the way, let me put in a plug for one more movie. Um uh have either of you guys seen Fantastic Four? No. No. Probably not. Um Fantastic Four is the most pro-family movie uh in Hollywood since I can't even remember. Wow. Um uh Katherine in particular I think you'll be astonished. Yeah. It's incredible. When did it come out? What's that? When did it come out? It came out this summer. It came out this summer. It came out this summer and Marvel just for context it's it's one of the big Mar it's one of the new Marvel one of the new Marvel tentpole properties. Um and and the the Marvel the Marvel machine you know, did incredibly well from like Iron Man in

56:442008 through Avengers: Endgame in like whatever 2020. But for the last 5 years many of the big Marvel projects have have have not done well both the TV shows and the movies and and you know, you could again you could argue different reasons why, but like critical drinker would tell you it's because they became consumed by the message. Um Fantastic Four is it's it's it's and you know, like it's like a you know, it's like a diverse cast. It's got it's got like a lot of of the the modern stuff in it. But however, Ann um it's like it's just like 100% pro-family. Um in like a very actually quite deep and moving way. Um and so it it again again it's just it's a little bit like, "Wow, they greenlit this this thing in 20" And and

57:17you know, maybe again maybe this is a reason for maybe I'm actually too too cynical. Maybe in 2022 they already real the filmmakers already realized what was happening. And so maybe they actually had like their own version of the underground movement where they're like, "All right, it's time to start planting the seeds for what is going to come out of this whole thing when when sort of the panic subsides um and and and you can say like Fantastic Four is like it's like a true audience-pleasing blockbuster from a studio that has been obsessed with the message. Um that comes out and doesn't have a trace of it in it at all. Um and um and and furthermore it's like it's like 100% about like I I wouldn't say it's like an it's

57:49not I mean it's a it's a superhero movie so it's not like a political. I wouldn't say it has like political content per se, but um it's like it's like 100% pro-family in a way that's very touching. Okay, we'll put it on the list. Um do you think Atlas Shrugged >> it. By the way, your kids will love it. Your kids will love it. I took my 10-year-old and like he was like yeah. Yeah. He doesn't he doesn't react emotionally to things, but he was like as close to crying in a movie as I've ever seen him. So Wow. Do you think Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead could could get made today? And do you think there'd be an audience for it? You know, it's funny. Yeah yeah. It's funny. Yeah. It's so funny. Especially Atlas Like

Atlas Shrugged as the ultimate test

58:23Atlas Shrugged has become Atlas Shrugged is Atlas Shrugged you know, people don't know it's the sort of famous Ayn Rand novel. It it's kind of her most successful novel. Um it's it's the novel that basically it it it it it clearly is like a great mythic American novel. Like it it clearly it clearly plays that part that we were talking about earlier. You know, it's it's it is one of the great American novels. Um you know, it's it's of a time and place, which is sort of the you know, the sort of 1950s, but it it it it's written in a way that could be kind of deliberately timeless. It's it's it's actually kind of it's actually kind of interesting how it's written cuz it kind of it it it's like obsessed with railroads

58:52on the one hand, which makes it kind of look back to the 1800s. Um but it also it's also has like science fiction elements. And she kind of did that I think deliberately so that it would kind of have this timeless kind of She's really talking about the you know, some movie it's a novel as the great novel. So it's a novel about people and the behavior of people. Um and so um but she does this thing where she kind of abstracts the specific content of it in order to kind of try to make it timeless. And I think I think it works quite well. Um and then The Fountainhead is is another version of that. The the Atlas Shrugged basically is about is about is about broadly is about it's about it's about it's about American

59:22dynamism. It's it's American dynamism in the movie. It's about industrialization and progress and science and going to the stars and like you know, achieving great things. Um and um you know, and and and the shape of society to do that. Um the Fountainhead is is is more about I would say artistic achievement um and and artistic purity. Um uh and it's sort of similarly evocative. And so both of those novels are you know, high up on the list of novels that will be very influential, you know, in 100 years. Both of those novels have been absolutely scathingly hated by every, you know, good cultural commentator and critic for the last, you know, basically since they came out. Like just And and and those novels are

59:54just attacked in like the most vicious possible terms. Um like absolutely um absolutely. Uh there was in fact famously famously uh Whittaker Chambers, the reformed communist, uh reviewed uh Atlas Shrugged for National Review when it came out in the 1950s and he you know, he basically called her a Nazi. Uh in National Review, Whittaker Chambers, who became this famous right-winger, basically calls Ayn Rand a Nazi. Ayn Rand, of course, being a Jewish refugee from Russia. Um he he said he said the novel quote has the whiff of the gas chamber about it. Right? And so like but by the way, it doesn't. But but anyway, very unfair unfair. Um but um but anyway, it's like the it's like your diversity of the Rotten Tomatoes scores

1:00:34of the of the critics versus the versus the audience. Like basically everybody who's read Atlas Shrugged like loves it. Um and everybody who's like criticized it for a living just [ __ ] despises it. Right? Just like completely despises it. Um and so and and what's what's interesting about it and maybe this is the importance of the novel is to your question like that that that aspect of it has lives today. So like anybody today who anybody today who every time I've ever talked to anybody who's read Atlas Shrugged in the last 10 years and they're like, "Wow. It's like the novel about the world we live in." Like it's it's it's it's like, "Oh, I know that guy and I know that guy and I know that guy."

1:01:07And Eric knows what I'm talking about. Um they like these are all people, right? Like these are all people. These are all archetypes of people. We know who these people are. We know what they're doing. And like it's just it's amazing how perceptive it is, you know, 60 or 80 years later. Like how how how primal she made it that it has that relevance. Um it And by the way, it's tremendously entertaining and it's like this sprawling narrative and it's just incredible characters. And so yeah, it like it very clearly ought to be a three-part movie or you know, at a at a huge budget or ought it ought to be like an eight season, you know, 10 episode, 80 episode total, you know, lavish HBO show or something. But like the cultural

1:01:40like the cultural overlay of that like what it would take in Hollywood to do that and the the level of attack that you would come under, the level of savagery that you would encounter if you're the executive or the actor or whatever. I mean, it would it would be every bit as intense today as it was in 1950s when the novel came out. And so like like that would be the great like that would be the indication like we're in a like really different world. I've I've talked to some folks in Hollywood about it. They they they all know it. They all understand this. They all know the novel. They're you know, they're all very familiar with it. They all, by the way, love the idea of of of doing things that have pre-existing

1:02:09brands and audiences built in. Um you know, because that that really reduces the risk. But like they if you really talk about it, they it's a little bit like a hot stove, you know, step away. And by the way, and again, it's very striking that a novel from like whatever 1953 can still be generating a hot stove reaction in 2025. You know, it's pretty amazing. And and the flip side of that is because it's such a cult classic that people would come out in droves. Like it would you know, it would it would make a lot of noise in a good way. It would be the it would be the Silicon Valley version of the Minecraft movie. Right? Like it would just be like, "Yep, we're all going." Yeah. Um but uh you know, I mean I don't know.

1:02:43Maybe maybe that maybe it's not a big enough audience or whatever to to to you know, maybe maybe that's not a big enough cult classic thing. But like it By the way, it sells. Like the it you know, it's one of the best-selling novels of all time. It sells, you know, enormously well today. It sold well basically since it came out. Um you know, it's it's it sells it sells far better you know, I mean, it's one of these things. It sells it all sells far more copies this year than any well-reviewed novel you know, that the New York Times book review talks about, right? And so and and yet it is just like it is so completely politically unacceptable that it's like off the map. Um yeah, so that that would be the

1:03:11ultimate test. I I would love to see it happen. I I yeah, I I don't know. And by the way, this may maybe maybe the answer here maybe this is the AI, right? Maybe the answer here is AI. Uh maybe what we need is AI system where you feed the novel in and it makes the movie. Um you know, which By the way, for sure you know, now that I say that like for sure that's going to happen. Um and so you know, maybe that's actually the answer. Yeah. Yeah, we were laughing offline about how someone was using Sora to make like a something that we thought was better than South Park. And and so it'll be interesting to see if a whole new crop of filmmaker sort of you know, democratizes the industry a little bit that's not just

1:03:46Hollywood, but it's people, you know, from all over and and studios don't have this sort of you know, monopoly over over creation of of high quality stuff. So yeah, we'll see. Yeah, so South Park actually let's let's let's close up closing this briefly South Park. South Park was very much like what you're saying with AI film making right now, but in 1990 19 1993. So I remember when South Park original South Park came out, the original South Park came out in 1993 and it was significant. It was the first internet viral video ever. Um it was the first video and this was like pre-streaming, pre-YouTube, pre you know, years before all of that. And so it literally distributed at the time as a it was a literally a it was a

AI filmmaking and the South Park story

1:04:18QuickTime movie. Um uh it was a Apple's QuickTime video format. Um and it was a downloadable thing. And like if you wanted to download it on a modem, you had to like leave the modem on for like an hour or something to download this thing. And what and what it was was it was a it was a digital scan of a um of a video Christmas card. So there was a an executive in Hollywood at the time that wanted to make his friends a special kind of Christmas card. And so he hired these two basically scrappy young, you know, basically film students Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who had no credits and you know, they were just you know, kids and hadn't done anything yet. And he hired them to And he basically said, "Make the most offensive basically

1:04:49like three-minute video Christmas card you can possibly imagine." And so and and what these what these kids do is it's like it was the technology at the time. What they did was they camcorders digital camcorders digital camcorders were brand new. So they used digital camcorder and then but then then they did stop they did stop motion they had no money. So they did stop motion animation using little cardboard using literally construction paper uh characters. And so the reason the characters look like they do is cuz literally in the original thing they were cut out of construction paper. And they were literally moved by hand frame to frame. And then and then and then the two kids did did did the voice overs.

1:05:17But it was from the very beginning it was the same characters Cartman and Kyle and Stan and Kenny. Right? And and and and and in in South Park, which is the town that these kids grew up in. Um and then it was a three-minute Christmas card and it was it was uh Santa Claus versus Jesus. Um and and and and Santa Claus versus Jesus ended up in a in a full kung fu fight, you know, complete with like blood and like body parts. Right? And so it was like this it was like, you know, massively it was intended to be like massively offensive. But it was like it was like really it was it was really funny. And so somebody got it and literally it was sent out on videotape. Right? Uh it was a pre-pre-DVD, right? So it was sent out

1:05:51on videotape and somebody actually scanned the videotape, which is actually hard to do. And then it it went super viral on the internet uh and became big. And so it's an example of you know, that that that everything I just described the camcorder. Like that that was the the AI of its time. It let these kids who had no access or no knowledge even necessarily of like traditional animation production methods to do this. Um by the way, when those kids actually then got their their they they then actually, you know, South Park's like a full studio now. You know, it's been tremendously financially successful. They they now have a complete state-of-the-art studio production facility. And what they've used it for

1:06:21is they've used it to hyper-optimize computer models of the optimal recreation of the aesthetics of the construction paper. And so if you watch South Park episodes today, you see actually the characters have there's actually a depth to the animation that shows the layers of the construction paper. And it's all produced digitally today. But like they've used state-of-the-art digital tools to re- to to to reconstruct the physics of construction paper. Um you know, you know, 30 years later. Um and so yeah, so so they were able to do that. And then obviously, you know, they were maybe the maybe the most successful like animation duo of the last 30 years. And yeah, I think that the AI thing is we're we're right

1:06:54on the tipping point um of that. And and your point like maybe maybe we actually just saw the first one. It's it's it's so um let's say toxic that it's hard to recommend that people watch it. >> Yeah, yeah, we will. Um but um it is it it is it is a it's for sure a South Park caliber level thing created in AI by somebody who didn't use any of traditional, you know, they didn't use any they had they didn't use any of traditional, you know, techniques to use for animating anything. Uh it was created entirely with Sora uh scene by scene. Um and yeah, it's it just as a as a as a as a demonstration of technology, it's just it's obvious that that moment has now arrived. I I And your point, Eric, like I do think

1:07:29for example, I I think there's now actually a new form of political propaganda uh at loose in the world, which is you know, that basically the custom produced, you know, basically South Park-ish, you know, kind of you know, video series. And and AI is going to make that so easy for people to do. The the you're going to be able to do you know, anybody in any you know, any electoral race is going to be able to hire some kid to you know, to to to do things like this. Um and so it's going to be like this it's like I don't know, decentralize satire or something like that. And so yeah, the the the the moment has arrived. They they're off to the races again. On that note, we got to let you go. Um but this has been a fantastic episode

1:08:01of Monitoring the Situation. Thanks so much for coming on, Mark. All right. Fantastic. Situation Monitor.