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I think movies play the role in our
culture that myths and legends used to

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play in ancient cultures
or that novels used

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to play 100 years ago. They're the art

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form that that is capable of basically
containing and expressing and making

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permanent the most important aspects
of a culture or of a civilization.

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>> There were a lot of great
films in 2019 and then

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like just a memory hole of like what
great film has come out since then. Like

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something happened in Hollywood.
The scripts that are being written, the

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types of things that are being made
today are very very different than what

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was happening in 2018 2019.

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Mark, you've been known
to monitor a situation or two.

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Welcome to the program. Eric,
how would you characterize me as a

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situation monitor? Or Extremely eager,

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you know. I picture you with

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thorough. I picture you with security

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cameras just extensively monitoring, you

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know. Um At all hours of the night. Um
So basically Howard Hughes and Katherine

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Howard Hughes in the penthouse,
is that the Yeah.

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Um You're an elite situation monitor,
which is why you're here. We're we're so

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happy to have you. Well, speaking
of movies, I'm watching all the James Bond

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movies with with my my 10-year-old
and we just got to Live and Let Die. Is it

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No, which one? Diamonds Are Forever,
which is the one set in Las Vegas.

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And it turns out the producer Harry
Saltzman of the Bond movies was a close

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personal friend of Howard Hughes at the
time. So they set the movie in Vegas and

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had all this cooperation from Hughes
and there's actually a Hughes character in

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the movie, but I'm just
going to give a spoiler alert.

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Blofeld has kidnapped Hughes
and is holding him hostage

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and has him a substitute in and is is
is pretending to be Hughes and James Bond

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scales the side of Hughes's big casino
in Vegas at the time and drops down

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through the skylight into
essentially Howard Hughes's bathroom.

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And the bathroom is literally
set up with like monitors

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and like, you know, computers and like
typewriters and like, you know, an

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elaborate phone system

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and then a single golden roll of paper.

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And Bond drops into it and he's like, Hmm.

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And I was like,
that's the perfect bathroom.

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[Laughter] Our our new
media team has a Twitter

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group chat called monitoring
the situation where

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that's that's the room that we
they want in the office for for

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Exactly. I want the things happening
in Twitter. Um with that let's segue I

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Did they ask for it to be the bathroom?

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Is that was that part of it? Yeah,
that would be the next step. I believe.

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>> just be an added an added on feature?

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Yeah. All right. Let's proceed.

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Mark, not that many not everybody
knows this about you, but

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you are an extensive movie buff
and movie aficionado and you've been

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having some commentary in our group
chats lately over some films that you

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think are are worth watching right
now and and kind of broader commentary

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around what's what's been happening
in in films. So why don't you want you

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share that with us? Yeah,
so let me start by saying, you

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know, kind of why why start
by saying like why this topic matters.

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And so, you know, cuz Like you're like
I think this does matter a lot. So um

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So first of all, I'll say like I've got
like enormous respect for anybody who

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does anything creative and so like every
time I see a movie, I'm just kind of

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marveling. Like I know what it takes
to make one. It's like making a you know,

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making a text editor or something. It's
just like this incredible labor of love

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and effort and blood, sweat and tears
on everybody's part. And so it's and it's

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just like a minor miracle, I think,
whenever any of these things actually

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you know, show up as a as
a as a two-hour executed

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film. And so and I I think that's amazing.
And so you know, none of what

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we're about to talk about, you know,
should be considered a knock on on

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filmmakers per se or the people
who put all this work into it.

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And the other thing I say is look,
in the last, you know, whatever 5 years,

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decade, 20 years, there've been
a tremendous number of what you could call

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you know, highly entertaining movies,
right? And and some that I think are

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like jaw-dropping, right? So like, you
know, like the just like, you know, one

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of my favorite genres action, you know,
the John Wick movies are like, you know,

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the best action movies of all time.

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They're all in the last whatever 15 years.

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You know, you you could name that for
a lot of different kinds of movies. You

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know, the the sort of you know,
the the entertainment factor is you know,

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remains very high. Um having said that,
you know, I think movies and Catherine

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and I see if you agree with me on this
or not. I think movies play the role in

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our culture that myths and legends

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used to play in ancient
cultures or that novels

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maybe used to play, you know,
100 years ago or that

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you know, you know, maybe songs
used to play or something like that,

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which is basically
they're the art form that

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is capable of basically containing and

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expressing and making permanent
the most important aspects of a culture

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or of a civilization, right?
So so sometimes you'll hear the term like

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there's this term called the Great
American Novel and there you know, so

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they do these certain novels like The
Great Gatsby or whatever that like or To

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Kill a Mockingbird that kind of capture
the spirit of the times and kind of

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become immortal through doing that.
And and I think, you know, basically and I

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love novels, but like, you know, that
the idea that novels do that I think is

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probably at this point, you know, pretty
unlikely for a variety of reasons. We

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could have a whole separate podcast
on that. But for the last, let's say at

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least 60 years and probably 100 years
like movies have been the way that that

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that that our culture that our culture
is able to express itself in a way that

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is going to really deeply stand the test
of time where people 100 and 200 and 500

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years from now are going to look back
and kind of say this is what these

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people are about. By the way,
Catherine, would you agree with that?

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Yeah, no no, definitely.
I mean I think uh I I think it was

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I think in slow decline probably
the last 25 years. Um because fewer like,

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you know, probably the '90s was the the
last decade where everyone watched the

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same movies and the Oscars were
indicative of like what's a great film

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that everyone has to see.
I would love to hear when you think it

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started bifurcating, but it does
feel like there's been this sort of

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bifurcation of if, you know, maybe you
could say the Tarantino films of the

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last 20 years were were widely watched

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and mattered in cinematic lore, but like
it feels like there was a lot more

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to say to say it like the next Great
American Novel is actually the next

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Great American Movie. That feels like
that maybe that ended in the '90s.

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Yeah, so it is it's possible. Although
you could also say, you know, it it is

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interesting because as we've discussed
in other other other forums, it's not

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that there aren't cultural artifacts
that everybody participates in. Like,

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you know, everybody you know,
I am told there's this young lady named

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Taylor Swift who is apparently
extremely popular.

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And I am told that other than me,
everybody follows her with a great deal of

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avid attention and I'm told that she has
a new, I guess what, album and movie and

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Album. Was that? Album? Yeah. And there's
a movie. There's a new movie coming out,

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too, I think, right? I I believe.

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I just remember I remember her
breakthrough. She actually her first movie

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was the movie a couple years ago that came
out that was so popular, her movie.

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There was she had a like a thing
on Netflix that was sort of

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following her around that that kind
of Okay, so okay, here's something I know

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about Taylor Swift that you don't, which
is the only time in my life I'm going to

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be able to utter those words.
She she did a famous thing actually in

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Hollywood in the movie industry.
She actually she released I think that I

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think whatever that was,
she released that actually in the theaters

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and it was actually very significant
that she did that because she cut the

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deal directly with the theater owners.

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And I think it was a straight 50/50
revenue split with the theater owners

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and so and she she booked it directly
and it was like on like it was like a

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huge release. It was like on 4,000
screens and it was like extremely

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popular and like all, you know, a lot of
you know, Taylor Swift fans and a lot of

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you families with young girls like, you
know, went to see it and I I remember it

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at the time because it was the same
it it it it went big the same week that

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Martin Scorsese's movie
Killers of the Flower Moon

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was in theaters and if you remember the
the reviews of and Martin Scorsese's one

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of these filmmakers who's made these
mythical movies, you know, that will for

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sure stand the test of time. And so,
you know, Killers of the Flower Moon was a

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movie that he intended to do that and we
and I don't I don't think it it did and

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we can talk about why not, but it
was this movie about, you know, it was a

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period piece set in the 1920s about, you
know, basically the rape and pillage of

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Native American, you know,
missing out for resources by, you know,

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evil white people. And but it was a
three-hour movie and it was apparently I

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didn't see it, but apparently it
was extremely slow and then apparently it

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had these extremely long stretches of of
silence cuz he was trying to get across

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this sense of like awe and grandeur
and like emotional impact and apparently

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what would happen is that movie would
be playing adjacent to the Taylor Swift

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movie and the Taylor Swift movie was so
loud that whenever he would go to the

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silent part, you would just hear
Taylor Swift pounding away on stage. Um

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Probably helps the movie out.
Probably helps the movie out a little bit.

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Arguably arguably improved
the movie from from from from

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from what I heard. You know, filled
in the missing soundtrack. So anyways,

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there are still mechanical issues with
with reproduction of these things, but

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um how did I get on that?
Um So anyway, the point is there are, you

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know, there there are these things,
you know, there are we do have cultural

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artifacts that sort of have, you know,
almost universal, you know, attention.

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It's just a To me it's just a question
of like, okay, like where are the like

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let's just say true arts like with a
capital A is the thing that not only

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captures the popular imagination, like
not only the people really experience,

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but also is the thing that actually has
the lasting impact such that in 10 years

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and 20 years and 50 years and 100 years
like people are still discussing it. And

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is it and you know, maybe a couple
things you could you could say. One is

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like as time passes, the sort of most
important cultural artifacts are sort of

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continuously reinterpreted, right? And so
the the way that it comes across when

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it's released is not the same way that it
comes across 5 or 10 years later and

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then 20 years later and and then sort
of each new generation that discovers it,

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you know, maybe interprets it
and talks about it in a different way.

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And then yeah, and then
and then so basically

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like capital A art is is the
ability to do that. And so

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like I like for sure it's true that
the audience overall has fragmented. For

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sure it's true that like the internet,
you know, has like, you know, created is

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sucking away, you know, just
enormous amounts of time and attention

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from movies. You know, it's it's
certainly true that, you know, the

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business pressures in Hollywood that
we can talk about are, you know, are

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probably more intense than ever. But it
is but it is still true that I think it

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is still possible to do what we're
describing. And and again, we'll talk

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about this more, but yeah, I think we
we'd all agree Tarantino, you know, was

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able to do this with Once Upon a Time
in Hollywood not that recently. So anyway,

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maybe we can say I still hold out hope
that this is possible. Like I I think

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this is the thing that that that that
the best filmmakers in the world in the

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country really ought to be able to do.

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Would you would you agree with that or do
you think it's do you think that's

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that's too optimistic? I hope. I mean
I I think I'm a little more pessimistic

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than you that I do think Once Upon a Time
in Hollywood is the last American movie.

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But for different reasons probably. Like
I think not only what you know it's like

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again like Tarantino is you know this I
think he has one more film in him as he

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says but that was really his his final
opus right like the penultimate film is

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the the that that was what he had been
kind of moving towards and I think he

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said his last film is going to be a much
kind of scaled down smaller sort of film

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when he decides to do it. But like I
think there's something about 2019 in

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particular. There were so many great

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films in 2019. There was 1917 Parasite
won the Oscar stole it from Once Upon a

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Time in Hollywood in my opinion but still
was like a decent film like there

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were a lot of great films in 2019 and then
like just a memory hole of like what

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great film has come out since then. Like I
I some something happened with COVID where

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we stopped going to the theater and it
does kind of map to that you know no one

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goes to the theater anymore but it's
also like something happened in

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Hollywood which I know we want to get
your take on what happened in Hollywood

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because it does feel like there's you
know the the scripts that are being

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written the the types of things that are
being made today are very very different

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than what was happening in 2018 2019.

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Yeah so just spend a moment let's spend
a moment on the state of Hollywood for

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for people who don't track it and so
there's a bunch of things. So yeah look

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the theater business has obviously
taken a giant hit kind of in the wake of

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COVID. You know COVID was like this big
you know was this big step down you know

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because the theaters you know were
closed longer than everything else and

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then there there was this there's been
this question ever since of kind of how

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to re-engage those audiences and get
them to go back to the theater and you

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know that you know maybe that's just
a secular change that most of the people

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being on their phones or whatever. You
know having said that it's not quite you

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know I don't think a complete
explanation for what's happened to the

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art form and and the reason for that is
the the the length of time that it takes

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to actually make a movie right
and so the movies that showed up

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in the theater in 2019 got greenlit in

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you know call it 2015 or 2016 you know
they got staffed in 2016 2017 and then

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they got executed in like 20
you know basically 2017 2018

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and and then they went through you know
editing and post-production and so forth

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and you know for for big movies that's
you know that whole process is like a

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two-year process and then
and then there's the long run

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up to release with the marketing
campaign and you know all the you know

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put the actors on the road and do all
the stuff and so there's like a whatever

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is four-month ad campaign or whatever
and so you know by the time you go

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through that process you know start
to end it's like four or five years and so

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for once upon a time to show I don't
know exactly when it was greenlit but

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for it to for when it to for it to show
up in 2019 meant that basically it the

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making of it the backstory probably
starts you know no no later than 2015.

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And and and I just bring that up which
means the movies that hit the theaters

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in 2021 started in like 2017 right
and the movies that are showing up today

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started in 2020. Right and so
so it's it's so the the the

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COVID explanation is not sufficient
for what we've seen in the last five years

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because those movies were greenlit under
conditions of COVID. Those movies were

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greenlit under conditions of pre-COVID.

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And so what whatever changes have taken
place which which we can talk about I

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think start you know
probably started around 2015.

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And and what what is your theory around
why things really started changing in

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the 2020 decade of film?
Yeah so again let me let me give you

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know again sort of maximum maximum you
know kind of you know kind of respect

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here which is like there's no question
a couple things. So just the secular

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changes. So one thing is look the
streaming revolution has had a very big

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impact and and the streaming revolution
hit Hollywood incredibly hard very

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positively for a stretch basically
through the 2010s because the all the

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companies that were engaged in the
streaming wars started spending just

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unprecedented amounts of money on on on
televisions and shows of all shows and

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movies of all kinds and so there was just
a giant flood of money. And I would

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say the mood in Hollywood I don't know
whatever eight years ago or something

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six years ago was you might even
describe as euphoric from a business

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00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,077
standpoint just cuz like I mean
the big thing was when Netflix scaled up

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to the point where they were spending
like 20 billion dollars a year on on

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content which is just like this you know
this giant flood of money to everybody

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else. And there were like you know
whatever a dozen streaming companies or

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whatever all the different
platforms that wanted to compete.

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And and so that money kind of took off
like a rocket and then what's happened

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is as the streaming as the streamers are
consolidating as the streaming wars are

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are kind of rationalizing
that money got pulled back.

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That was a big you know kind
of financial blow and then the other thing

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that streaming did that has really
affected things a lot in in Hollywood in

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a very negative way which is streaming
cut off the financial upside

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to the films and TV and so films
used to when they were hits they

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they first they would
sell a lot of box office

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and then they would and then they would
sell like the television rights you know

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ultimately the streaming rights and then
and then they'd have this long after

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market where they would
you know sell DVDs.

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You know video tape rentals in the 80s
and 90s and then DVDs in the 2000s and

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2010s and so if you had a movie that was
a hit like it could run and you know it

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could run for years generating just like
enormous amounts of revenue and cash.

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And then same thing with TV shows you
know it used to be a successful TV show

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the line I think was six seasons and a
movie where if it got to like whatever

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100 episodes or something it would enter
syndication and then you could sell it

264
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,637
for hundreds of millions of dollars
and there would be all this upside for the

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people involved in creating it.
And what happened with streaming and the

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economics of streaming is those those
forms of upside just vanished cuz what

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happens is the streamers just buy
the projects with like a cost plus model a

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lot of the time. And so you make
the movie and you turn around you sell it

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for like a 10% profit margin to a
streamer and then there's no after

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market cuz it's just a tile on the
streaming service. Right and and and

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there's no you know there's no DVD
sales there's no you know there's no TV

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syndication rights it those concepts are
irrelevant. You know the streamer just

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has sort of a perpetual right or a
20-year right or whatever to be able to

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show it at that sort of fixed fee.

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And so so the upside got cut off
and that that removed I think a lot of the

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economic incentive for kind of the
wildcatting thing that Hollywood used to

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do more which is to really
take you know take these chances

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on things you know like Hollywood used
to work a lot like the venture capital

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model which is you know you you
put 10 you know you put 10 lines in

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the water you get you know you get four
bites and you get maybe one you know

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grand slam. And and you
know if it works like that's

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00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,877
a spectacular model but you
the grand slam has to be able to scale

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economically in order for that that to
happen and that's been cut off. So so so

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so that that that did not help
and then and then there's the big thing

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capital B capital G capital T the big
thing that happened of course which is

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Hollywood being on the vanguard
of culture got hit by

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00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:46,477
the thing the cultural
change of the last decade

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like incredibly hard and you know we've
we've talked a lot about how tech you

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00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,637
know got hit by that incredibly hard
and Hollywood got hit by it in a in a very

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intense way. You know
nobody's ever quite figured out

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00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,797
the right way to to talk
about this to you know

292
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,517
you know sometimes you say things
like wokeness or or whatever

293
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,117
you know in the 60s they would
have called it the new left.

294
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There's actually a term is actually
my my favorite term for it in Hollywood is

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there's a YouTube channel
called Critical Drinker

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where he's a he's a movie reviewer
is quite funny and and the Critical

297
00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,357
Drinker has been documenting
basically the thing

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00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,797
that hit Hollywood and he and in in I
would say in quite scathing terms

299
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,717
this whole time. What he calls
it is he calls it the message.

300
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And it's it's the message with a capital
M and it's actually really funny cuz for a

301
00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,517
long time people who watch the Critical
Drinker he would never actually define

302
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,477
what the message was. You know he would
basically just say you know this this

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00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,717
this movie has been affected by the
message right. And of course and you you

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00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,717
guys are all laughing cuz of course
you already know what the message was.

305
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,277
Everybody knows what the message
was right all white people are racist all

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00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,397
men are you know sexist you know
everybody's a transphobe and you you

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00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,477
just go America's you know a force for
evil in the world right and you just go

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00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,637
like right down the list of like
everything that you know everything that

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00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,357
you would expect you
know from the last decade.

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00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,037
You know America's you know in in
a incipient fascist regime like it

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00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,037
just the the entire package you know
basically you know like whatever's on

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00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,477
the front page of the New York Times
that day right just the message.

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And so you know movies transformed
themselves you know very large

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percentage of movies that could
have been great you know

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00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,637
you know in some alternate world could
have been these these these these great

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00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:20,357
works of art just just basically became
became in some form political propaganda.

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00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,797
Or or you could if you wanted to be
more generous you could say that you know

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those will be the lasting artifacts
of this last decade right which is

319
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,877
historians will look back and they'll be
like holy you know holy lord like these

320
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,197
people were really like wrapped around
the axle like a bunch of political

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00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,397
issues like my my you know my goodness.

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00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,037
And so they got hit hard by that and then
the other thing and then that that

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00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:43,157
led to in Hollywood you know what can
only be described as a reign of terror

324
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,797
which and this is something that
occasionally Hollywood figures will talk

325
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,757
about this in public although very
rarely cuz they're they you know it's

326
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,797
it's a very sensitive topic still
but you know if if you know people in

327
00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,237
Hollywood you know basically it's
through that through the especially the

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00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,357
last you know eight years you know they
they just they felt like if they made

329
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,237
one misstep on you know casting or on the

330
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:07,117
details in the script or use of words
or the themes of a movie or anything you

331
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,357
know they they just felt like they
were in danger of just like a lightning

332
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,677
strike from you know from from you know
from from the sky just like striking

333
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,397
them dead on the spot like you know
and they they they had like you know

334
00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,077
everybody in Hollywood had like friends
whose careers just got like completely

335
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:23,077
detonated you know at one point you know
in one unpredictable way or another. And

336
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:25,677
again people have different opinions
on this and you can argue it was it was

337
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,797
long needed or whatever but like it it
it became it became a thing and it like

338
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,237
it basically changed the process of like
how projects were selected it changed

339
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,237
the changed the process of you know
of but who made projects it changed the

340
00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,317
process of staffing it changed
the process of screenwriting it changed it

341
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,357
changed it changed it changed acting
it it changed you know aesthetics it

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00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,557
changed like almost every aspect of of how
these projects get executed. And and

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00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,317
I just go go through that because I
think that that I think that's that's

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00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,917
changing again right now like if you
talk to the same people in Hollywood

345
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,357
what they'll tell you basically is you
know it's basically the end of this year

346
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,557
that the fever has broken and there's
a bunch of indications for that and then

347
00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,917
we're entering kind of the the sort
of post sort of post message

348
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,837
you know kind of era.
And you know we we don't know what era

349
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,077
we're heading into maybe there's a new
message or something but like we're we're

350
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,197
there's a phase shift that's underway.

351
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,237
But but that phase shift is going
to take time because it takes time to make

352
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,117
movies right. The movies that are
greenlit today right are not going to

353
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,757
come out you know until like whatever 20

354
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,517
it takes 2027 2028 soonest and so

355
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,597
so we're in this like liminal period
or this interstitial period where for the

356
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,637
next like three years we're going to get
like a thousand movies that have like

357
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,237
the message and they're all going to act
like the message is like brand new and

358
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,037
fresh and nobody's ever heard it before
cuz they you know they all pretend that

359
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:44,917
this is like some big revelation that
like all white people are racist right

360
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,957
again every movie and there's going
to be like a thousand more of those in the

361
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,437
next three years and they're just going
to land like an absolute thud right like

362
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,597
cuz it's just like if you wanted
that message, you got it, right? If you

363
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:59,197
already saw a thousand movies to say
you like the next thousand movies don't

364
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,837
contribute to that, right? And and
just just to knock on one and he's a

365
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,877
brilliant filmmaker, but I I just saw
the new Paul Thomas Anderson movie one

366
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:07,597
battle after another and it like it's

367
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,037
literally like a time capsule. It's like

368
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,437
a 2022 time capsule. It's literally like

369
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,757
time frozen in 2022. And in 2022,
this movie would have been

370
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,557
like, "Oh my god, like this movie
is like got the message, right? It's just

371
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:25,077
like everything about it. We could we
could spend hours just on this movie.

372
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,917
And it lands today and you're just
watching and you're just like, "Wow,

373
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,517
that was a weird time." Like, "Oh my
goodness." Yeah, I want to I want to put

374
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,117
more about this movie cuz I think it was
Brett Easton Ellis who came out and was

375
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,797
the first person, you know, cuz it's
getting all the Oscar platitudes like

376
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,637
oh, it's it's definitely in line for the
Oscar, right? And he came out and he's

377
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,317
like, "It feels musty." Right? And I
should get the actual like language he

378
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,317
used cuz it was much worse than that,
but he said it's like a musty film. It's

379
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,997
exactly what you said. It's 2022.
Like this was greenlit at a very different

380
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,397
time and now it's come out and like the
world's moved on. And so I'm I'm curious

381
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,277
like do you think that that that we're
still going to pretend these movies are

382
00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:02,757
great even though they don't match with
our time or is there going to be sort of

383
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:05,997
a three-year period where we are allowed
to say actually like that that doesn't

384
00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,517
make any sense anymore and like maybe
that movie shouldn't have been made.

385
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,517
Yeah, so this is it's a this one is a
complicated this one is a complicated

386
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,237
scenario. So just on the movie itself,
the movie itself is actually and it's

387
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,077
it's quite like I quite
enjoyed watching it.

388
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,957
I quite enjoyed watching it and I just
for ironic reasons, but it just also

389
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,237
watching it of like how how
this happened. Like and and there's

390
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,037
a bunch bunch of reasons. And again,
the filmmakers one of the one of the you

391
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,357
know, one of the great filmmakers of the
era Paul Thomas Anderson, you know, he

392
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,677
made There Will Be Blood
and he made, you know,

393
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:34,717
Boogie Nights and like
all these, you know,

394
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,077
by the way, he made right there he named
two movies Boogie Nights and There Will

395
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,877
Be Blood are two movies that are like
in the in the they're going to be in the

396
00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,557
Hall of Fame of the art form where it's
like, you know, a hundred years from now

397
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,517
people are going to be like, "Wow,
you know, that's what that culture was

398
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,197
about." And so he he's he's he he is one
of those guys and clearly that's what he

399
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,117
was going for in this movie.
It is a weird movie in that it's it's it's

400
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,837
partially based on a famous Thomas
Pynchon novel called Vineland,

401
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,557
which is Thomas Pynchon's movie
is Thomas Pynchon's novel basically

402
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,077
about the it's essentially I mean
it's it's essentially veiled through

403
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,317
whatever, but it's basically
like about the days of rage,

404
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,637
you know, the Brian Burrough book or the
you know, the Weather Underground. You

405
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,717
know, basically the the
violent social revolution,

406
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,437
you know, basically from the far left
in the '60s and and then sort of what

407
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,477
happened in the aftermath of that.

408
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,517
And so like that that's the theme of the
novel, but it's very much a novel of and

409
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,917
about the 1960s. It's not considered
you know, most people don't consider it

410
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,677
maybe the the best Pynchon novel,
but like it's it's a good mid-tier one and

411
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,397
it's it's in the pantheon. And it
it turns out to have been Paul Thomas

412
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,877
Anderson's favorite novel. He'd been
trying to make a version of it for 20

413
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,437
years or whatever. And but what he did
basically was he he kept the he kept the

414
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,517
very basic kind of plot framework set
up, but then he completely updated it

415
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:43,197
for the message, right?
And so like it has like specifically it

416
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,037
has a whole bunch of like it has this
whole basically it's a racial, you know,

417
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,957
it has a whole racial kind of plot
structure to the whole thing. And and

418
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,637
and social in in ways
that are fairly amazing.

419
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,317
That that are completely based on the
current moment you know, circa 2022.

420
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,557
And so it's a little bit like the 1960s
it's like the it's like the it's like

421
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,157
the it's like the early
2020s filtered through

422
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,117
the 1960s and so it's just a little bit
odd with that. Arguably it is kind of

423
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,797
salient to our times cuz I think if
you were to retitle the movie, you would

424
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,637
just title it Antifa the movie.

425
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,717
Like it's like it's like a full-throated
celebration of basically violent social

426
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,397
change. Violent social revolution like
and it's it's completely unapol like

427
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,037
I'm going to spoil I'm going to spoil it.
I'm just going to spoiler alert.

428
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:28,517
Yeah, by the end Spoiler alert
for moderating the situation. Everyone's

429
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,637
already seen it here, so.
So it's a 2-hour 45-minute movie that I

430
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,357
went by the way and I went to the theater
and I paid full price and like I

431
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:37,677
smuggled in my snacks
and like the whole thing.

432
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,357
I go through the whole thing and I'm
like hoping he's such a brilliant

433
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,077
filmmaker. I'm hoping it's a subversive
movie, right? And so I'm kind of hoping

434
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,637
that the whole thing is like by the end
he's like really like he's like, "Okay,

435
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,317
like these Weather Underground people
who like went on the run for 20 years

436
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,557
and destroyed their lives and like,
you know, we're we're always, you know,

437
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,237
basically you know,
crazy privileged children like

438
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,797
raging out against their you know, their
basically their parents and blowing [__]

439
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,837
up and killing people and this whole
thing was a giant mistake." And and I

440
00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:59,997
was kind of hoping that that would you
know, that would be kind of the way that

441
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,117
you could tell the story. No, no, no,
he's just like, "Oh, no, that was great.

442
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,077
Like like that was fantastically good.

443
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,237
These people are amazing. Like they're
they're these are the myths and legends

444
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,117
of our time." He clearly wants to make
these people into mythical figures. And

445
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,277
then at the end and then at the end it's
just very clear that he's like, "Yes,

446
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:16,117
and I completely endorse
and support all of this.

447
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,797
And this is exactly what this
is these are the role models that

448
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,797
children should have and it's fantastic."
Right? And so you know, in a

449
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,357
this is one of those movies where
in a perverse way maybe it maybe it stands

450
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,277
the test of time that way where it's
just like, "Wow, these people had like

451
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:31,557
these people have constructed a mythos,
you know, by by by by by in which

452
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,197
violent robbery and like violent
robbery and murder basically is great."

453
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,557
Right? Like it's wonderful.
Right? And so you know,

454
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,157
maybe that's you know, I don't know,
maybe it's like reading Emma Goldman

455
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,677
Emma Goldman essays a century later
or something it's just like, "Wow, these

456
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,757
people kind of really got carried away."

457
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,997
But like, you know, it's it's not what
it could have been. Anyway, this this is

458
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,237
the Okay, so so one
is it's it's out of time.

459
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,357
Although you know, hopefully
it won't become more relevant.

460
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,197
And then the other is again that the
business aspect of it which is you know,

461
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,197
being a great filmmaker.
This is the one that he got like the

462
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,437
real budget for us. This is like a much
bigger budget than any of the other

463
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,197
movies that he's made.
And with that he was you know, the cast

464
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,117
is like just incredible. Like so it's
you know, Leonardo DiCaprio and Sean

465
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,397
Penn and Benicio Del Toro and like
all these amazing you know, actors and

466
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:16,197
actresses. But as a consequence, I don't
have the numbers on top of my head, but

467
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,797
you know, it it was estimated to cost
something on the order of 200 million

468
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:20,997
dollars to make. And then it's it's more

469
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,077
money on top of that for you
know, for for advertising.

470
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,117
The the challenge and then
you know, it's got Leo you

471
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,917
know, he's by the way, he's fantastic
in it. Very entertaining, but

472
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,397
by the way, what I don't know,
yeah, spoiler alert. One

473
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,637
of one of the things about the message
it's got the message. So the Leo

474
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,637
character that plays one
of these basically he's a

475
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,197
bomber basically in hiding for like
18 years or whatever and he's got this

476
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,997
daughter is the daughter of his his his
his lover who's this was this you know,

477
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,197
great like basically you know,
violent revolutionary of the era.

478
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,477
And they've been hiding for 18 years
and he's like completely fried his brain

479
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,957
like you know, drugs and alcohol.
He's just like you know, he's completely

480
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,557
blown out as a person. He spends the
entire movie running around like in his

481
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,717
bathrobe like you know,
basically basically high.

482
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,197
And if you actually watch the movie
carefully all the way through it

483
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,477
actually turns out nothing he actually
does at any point in the plot ever

484
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,197
actually matters. Like like
he he plays no actual role in

485
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,557
the plot. And so it's this like
incredible performance and it's

486
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,837
incredibly it's incredibly you know,
dynamic and entertaining performance.

487
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,197
The movie the movie's going to sell do
well overseas as a result of that cuz

488
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,797
people love Leo. But like again,
it's consistent with the

489
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,717
message of of course the white male lead
can have no actual role to play in the

490
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,837
plot. Like it it you know,
that's definitely not allowed.

491
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,637
Like in in the climax, he literally
shows up at the end of the climax and

492
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,037
just like, "I'm here."
And like it's like all over, right? You

493
00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:43,717
know, like everybody's dead.
Like it's all it's just done.

494
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:49,157
So so anyway, it's going to do reasonably
well because because you know, because

495
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,117
it has Leo, but it's still going to lose
like a hundred hundred twenty million

496
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,597
dollars or you know, the estimates
that that I'm hearing which is you know, a

497
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,917
pretty pretty big loss you know,
for for for a movie like this.

498
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,477
The the the fear in Hollywood always
is when there's when there's a movie that

499
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,957
loses that much money you know, will the
executive greenlight new original movies?

500
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,997
And you know, so hopefully they do
hopefully the lesson is drawn from this

501
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,957
is you know, basically it's
is is is the is the Brett Easton Ellis

502
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,557
point which is the the what is what he
said the fussiness or the um Musty. He

503
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,357
said it's a musty film. Musty mustiness,
yeah. Hopefully the conclusion is don't

504
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,917
make movies that are going to be musty
when they're released, right? Like you

505
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,277
know, you you didn't have you know, you
didn't have to greenlight the thousandth

506
00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,677
movie with the message in 2022.
Like that was a choice. You know, so maybe

507
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,877
don't do that anymore. You know,
but but you know, but but but

508
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,357
maybe it's time to move on. Let me
highlight the movie on the other side

509
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,877
that I think is very
underappreciated and I think has I

510
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,357
you can say maybe at best right now it's
becoming a cult classic. It's just not

511
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,397
that big of a hit, but like I have
hopes for it and I hope it becomes one of

512
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,197
these mythic movies which is Eddington.

513
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,437
And let me let me start by asking
have you guys both at this point seen

514
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:54,157
Eddington? I haven't. I haven't. Okay,
well you're you're in for a treat. So so

515
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,797
my opinion my opinion first opinion
Eddington is the first capital A art art

516
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,677
great art movie I I I I feel like I've
seen since Once Upon a Time in Hollywood

517
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,197
and I I think it clears the bar. And I
would start by saying it's not a perfect

518
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,677
movie like you know, there you know,
there there are things about it that I'm

519
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,277
you know, I'm sure five years from now
or whatever even the maker of the movie

520
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,597
might look back and say you know,
could have done things differently. So

521
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,957
but but it's like it's it's like
it has the opposite of the musty

522
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,597
feeling. It has the feeling of oh,
I'm actually finally seeing on screen real

523
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:28,117
people again. Like finally.
Like real people set in the real world

524
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,597
doing real things where you're just like,
"Wow, like that that I'm actually

525
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,917
seeing the world that we've actually
spent the last five years living in."

526
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,757
And it's the first movie like
that that that that I've seen in a

527
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,677
long time. And specifically it's
the first movie and it's amazing that this

528
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,677
is the case even with the time scales
that we're talking about. It's the first

529
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,557
movie in which like the George
Floyd riots actually happened.

530
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,477
It's the first movie in which
COVID actually happened.

531
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:54,357
It's the first movie in which social
media actually happened. It's the first

532
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,917
movie in which wokeness actually happened.

533
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,717
It's the first movie in which Trump
actually happened. Like and it's

534
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,797
actually and this is why I'm sort
of having the reaction to the movie that

535
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,997
I'm having which is just like it's the
only movie in which any of those things

536
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,277
actually happened in the universe of
the movie. Cuz like I don't know you tell

537
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,037
unless I missed something like every
other movie that's come out that's been

538
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,717
significant over the last five years
like it's as if none of that ever

539
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,917
happened. And and and and my explanation
for that is these are all the hot button

540
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,757
issues that if you screwed them up
in in Hollywood, you got your career

541
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,517
destroyed. Right? So if if you if
you said the wrong thing about COVID

542
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,517
lockdowns or vaccines, if you said the
wrong thing about Trump, if you said the

543
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,797
wrong thing about the Floyd riots, if
you said the wrong thing about wokeness,

544
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,317
like your career going to be
obliterated. So we have like a

545
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,557
generation of creatives who basically
just like got taught do not touch the

546
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,557
stove. And and the auteur the auteur
who made Eddington, it's an auteur auteur

547
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,677
movie this guy uh Aster. He's this young
auteur a very talented guy. He basically

548
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,597
was like, "I'm just going
to grab the stove with both hands

549
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,717
and I'm just going to like hold
on for dear life." And it's like a roller

550
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,957
coaster ride through every crazy [__]
thing that happened in the last 5 years,

551
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:02,397
and I was just like howling with laughter.
Let me put it this way, me and

552
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,797
the other four people in the theater who

553
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,797
were watching it were just like, "Wow!"

554
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,317
It's amazing. It's finally happening.

555
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,597
Other bright side of this, too, is that
it's not unknown actors, right? It's

556
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,117
It's Joaquin Phoenix, Emma Stone. Um
and and what's what's really interesting

557
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,597
about it, as you said, like there's most
media or, you know, most most movies try

558
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,677
to kind of gloss over social media
or things where it's like actually hard to

559
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,997
depict it on a screen. Like there's
nothing really interesting about looking

560
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,237
at your phone. But like getting a COVID
nostril test is actually like very

561
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,757
funny. And I know like the trailer
begins with like pulling up in this like

562
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,597
old car, getting the nostril test. It's
just like It's just like a funny thing.

563
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,997
And so it's like it's good that some
of these more like absurd things that have

564
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,397
happened in the last couple years,
like they're actually very cinematic. And

565
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,677
they should be put on like they should
be put like great filmmakers should be

566
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,157
should showing them cuz they're so funny.

567
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,797
Yeah. So I'll do a couple again,
I'm going to blow through the spoilers.

568
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,477
Yeah, so the the opening scene
is Joaquin Phoenix Joaquin Phoenix plays

569
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,517
this basically this crusty sheriff of this
small town in New Mexico called Eddington.

570
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,877
Which actually kind of reminds me of the
town I grew up in. And and the the key

571
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,117
thing for the thing is Eddington, like
there's just nothing in the town. Like

572
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,237
it's like 600 people. It's just like the
streets are empty, the stores are empty.

573
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:14,157
I mean, it's like a town that was empty
before COVID, right? And then and then

574
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,477
the lockdowns hit and then it became
even more desolate. There's nothing

575
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,877
happening and you can just walk
around and there's nobody there.

576
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,757
And so Joaquin Phoenix plays the sheriff
who's like this crusty unreconstructed

577
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,037
and he's not really a Trump supporter
per se, but he's like this sort of

578
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,877
crusty, you know, kind of traditionalist,
you know, kind of kind

579
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,077
of guy. He's He's the kind of guy who
just really does not want things to

580
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,717
change that much. Um and like everything
is changing around him. And it starts It

581
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,037
starts in It starts with COVID.
It starts in like April of 2020.

582
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,637
Um and he's sitting in this pickup truck
in the middle of nowhere and he's like

583
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,677
eating a sandwich or whatever. And the
this other truck pulls up next to him

584
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,357
and he sees these uh, you know,
it's it's in New Mexico, so there's these

585
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,597
the town that he's in are adjacent to
the these tribal lands. And so these two

586
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,677
young tribal cops, you know, Native
American cops pull up in a in a in a

587
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,157
pickup truck next to him and they're like,
you know, they're like young and,

588
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,877
you know, let's say cooler than he is.

589
00:31:59,960 --> 00:32:03,357
Um and and they're they like they and
they're both wearing their masks, right?

590
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,437
And and and literally they're like,
"Roll down your window." And he rolls

591
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,757
his window. And literally they're
from their pickup truck into his, they're

592
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,717
like, "You have to put your mask on."

593
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:14,320
[Laughter]

594
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,757
And you know, it's like
literally it was like for me

595
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,477
it was like, you know, it was like you
know, the heaven has opened, the angels

596
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,197
are singing. I'm finally
seeing a capital M movie.

597
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,477
Like this and, you know, like he's
a brilliant and so like he he gets across

598
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,677
like in one look the feeling that I
think we've all had for the last 5

599
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,757
years, which is like like, "Fuck off."

600
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,917
[__] It's the and that's just the opening
scene and then it cascades through all

601
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,837
the COVID. And then it cascades through
and then I'll, you know, spoiler alert

602
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,437
again, or spoiler, it cascades through
the through the Floyd riots hit midway

603
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,957
through the movie. And then all
the and then, you know, the the um the of

604
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,877
course, you know, the local high
school's like you know, the local high

605
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,437
school's like 100% white.
Um you know, it's New Mexico. And you

606
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,957
know, and then the white kids basically
become like obsessed with racial justice

607
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,077
even though they literally
don't I mean black

608
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,997
I mean, start like basically having like
full-blown riots like, you know, in in

609
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,797
in the main street and like breaking
store windows, like crashing everything.

610
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,237
And there's one there's one black
there's one black person in town who's

611
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,397
the sheriff's deputy, who's Joaquin's
deputy, who's a military vet. And he's

612
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,917
just like, "What the hell?" He's like

613
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,637
like why why do I have
to defend the grocery store

614
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,997
from the white kids like trying to burn
it down on my behalf? Like what the

615
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,517
[__] Anyway, so so so the whole movie
is like that. And then maybe maybe just

616
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,157
one more thing about it is just
hysterical. Eric, this is a good time

617
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,117
for you to take a drink of water cuz
you're going to love this part. Um this

618
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:36,837
is a good for this fit take out.

619
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,677
Pedro Pascal is in it. Um and at first
you would think that Pedro Pascal plays

620
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,877
the mayor. At first you're like, "Oh,
this is going to be a clear setup uh

621
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,757
where, you know, Joaquin Phoenix is like
the retrograde right-winger and Pedro

622
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,717
and you know, Pascal's like the voice
of reason." It's like, "No, no."

623
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,757
He's Gavin Newsom. Like I swear to God

624
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:58,000
he's Gavin Newsom. Like 100%
Pedro Pascal is playing him.

625
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,517
What what does he do?
I I don't even want to like it's it's

626
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,597
it's I don't even want to like I don't
I'm not even intending to badmouth

627
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,797
Gavin. I'm just saying like or or just
every other politician, whatever is your

628
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,077
idea of a politician who's like Gavin
Newsom, like Pedro Pascal Pedro Pascal

629
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,677
plays him. And just like could not
be looking down on the the the the the

630
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,557
sheriff character with more contempt.
Um like just absolutely just like, you

631
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,837
know, and then and then vice versa. And
then and then basically what happens is

632
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,357
that, you know, they they effectively
So that that So the the the sheriff gets

633
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:28,757
frustrated by the whole thing,
the lockdowns and everything. And so he he

634
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,357
decides to run for mayor and so that it
becomes a fight, you know, between the

635
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,877
two of them. Um Which
by the way, it's just the

636
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,317
beginning of the movie. Like it it then
gets actually quite a bit more elaborate

637
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,077
after that. Um but the big thing about

638
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,397
it is it's just it's like a full it's
just like an absolute full frontal

639
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,397
examination from top to bottom. And and
like it pulls in it it like Katherine

640
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,197
doesn't have It's interesting.
It doesn't have a lot of like It doesn't

641
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,077
have like a lot of on-screen graphics of
like people on social media, but it does

642
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,797
have this recurring thing, which again
is just it's incredible how rare this is

643
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,637
in movies. Or maybe other filmmakers
haven't figured out how to do it, which

644
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:02,237
is these characters live in a world
of social media. Um and so he does this

645
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,237
great like when a character in this
movie wakes up, he rolls over and he

646
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,877
checks his phone. Like like
it's it's it's our it's our

647
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,917
world. And and he does I think a very
good job of showing the interleaving

648
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,917
back and forth of how people are
And again, this is like a, you know, town

649
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:16,277
rural town in the middle of nowhere.

650
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,997
People are living this, you know, this
double life that that we all now live,

651
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:21,477
which is we've got our in-person life
and then we've got our online life and

652
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,237
there's this, you know,
question of which one is more real.

653
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,277
And and and this is the first movie
I've seen that actually just And And it

654
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,997
doesn't incorporate that. Like it's not
social media the movie, like that's not

655
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,557
what the movie's about, but it's just
kind of it just kind of shows naturally

656
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,957
how the nature of reality has changed
around that and then how it how how how

657
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:38,717
it influences real world behavior.

658
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,117
Um as anyway, so I can't
recommend it highly enough.

659
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,237
>> Isn't Emma Stone's character like taken
by conspiracy that she finds online or

660
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,717
like like what what is her her role
in the movie? Yeah, well, so this is part

661
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,037
of the So and and and and so
at this point I'm like grabbing

662
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:53,357
the stove with with both hands also.

663
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,997
Like she she plays like she plays like the

664
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,917
upper middle class white woman who's
just like racked with anxiety. And

665
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,757
and this is like the this is the plot arc.
Like she's just like she's like

666
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,117
incredibly deeply unhappy. Um and so
yeah, so she gets locked into like

667
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,437
online conspiracies and then there's
this whole thing. I don't even I don't

668
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,877
even want to spoil the thing that
happens with her cuz it's it's quite

669
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,197
it's quite something and it's quite
a plot arc of its own. But you know, she

670
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,597
she has her own her own kind of parallel
life that kind of unfolds through this.

671
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,717
And she's cuz she's Joaquin Phoenix's
husband. And like and he loves her and

672
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,277
has absolutely no idea what She has
absolutely no clue what's going on in

673
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,197
her head. Like he like married to her,
he loves her. She's clearly extremely

674
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,677
depressed. She's clearly extremely
anxious. He has no ability whatsoever to

675
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,157
understand her communication with her.

676
00:36:38,240 --> 00:36:40,477
And then her mom, you know, her mother,
you know, her mother she's, you know,

677
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,637
very close with her mother. Her mother
keeps showing up, you know, lives in

678
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:46,397
town, just and just [__] hates him
and just is like scathing towards him.

679
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,997
And he's like, "What you know, what's
[__] I'm doing my best. I can't read

680
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,757
her mind. Like I don't know what's going
on." And so, you know, it's got that,

681
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,117
you know, it's it's got like a whole
it's got like a whole it's got like a

682
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:58,437
whole arc there. Um And then
and then it's got another one

683
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,197
more. It's got the There's there's the
in the little in the little high school,

684
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,557
um there's a there's a a very
attractive, you know, black black

685
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:09,237
high school girl who
basically like becomes like

686
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,517
completely committed to social justice
um and it's going on and on. She's got

687
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:13,717
like all the, you know, patriarchy.

688
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,117
She's got all the talking points.
Like she's, you know, she's ready for her,

689
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,917
you know, sociology degree.
Um and and then all the all the like

690
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,597
boys and men like orbiting around her
basically like become obsessed with like

691
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,957
there's a there's a there's a white
male high school kid who just like is

692
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,117
like just generally oblivious and he he
like has a thing for her. And so like he

693
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,197
starts reading Angela Davis
um like in an attempt to

694
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,637
attempt to basically become attractive for

695
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,717
um and and anyway, so like and he starts
spouting off about white privilege and

696
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:43,597
the whole thing. Does it work?

697
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:48,197
Uh um Cuz that's always the question.

698
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,277
It doesn't work.

699
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,557
It doesn't It doesn't work. It doesn't
work for the purposes that he it doesn't

700
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:59,517
work for the purposes that he intends
it for, but he he let's say he he

701
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,837
ultimately yeah, he has a very successful,
I would say, plot arc of his

702
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:07,197
own. Um yes, he he actually plays plays
a major role in the in the end. He goes

703
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:10,357
on his own journey and plays
a major role in the end of the movie.

704
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,957
Um anyway, so it's just like it's one
of these movies and, you know, people

705
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:15,837
have like, you know, different critiques
of it and it's a little bit of a, you

706
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,397
know, I don't know what they call it,
like a shaky dog story where like as the

707
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:22,037
movie goes, like increasingly crazy
things are happening and and and things

708
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,477
get kind of, you know, they they
get kind of deranged in in in

709
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,717
sort of a way that, you know, is is you
know, you could argue is like truly

710
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,157
reflective of how deranged things got or
you could say, you know, maybe he gets a

711
00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:36,037
little bit carried away, but like it's
just it it directly it's it's it's such

712
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,797
it's such a direct engagement with our
times that that that and and to me it

713
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,437
was just like, "Wow, I'm actually seeing
on screen our world as opposed to these

714
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,757
the sort of even this manufactured view of
a world that doesn't exist or this sort of

715
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:50,957
manicured view where these topics have
just become untouchable." And so anyway,

716
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:56,077
so my my hope is it's the beginning of
a wave of Like there's so much material.

717
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,677
You know, this is the old Tom Wolfe
thing, which is like what did he Most

718
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,677
Tom Wolfe's term He said,
"What was it? The His term is

719
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,477
the eight There's the eight There's
the is the the beast with eight billion

720
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,357
feet?" Or what was his term? Like the mass
of humanity? He had this term where

721
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,477
he's like Like the Tom Wolfe always had
this point of view, you know, the great

722
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:12,917
novelist, journalist. The most
interesting topic in the world is like

723
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,877
the human race, right? Like the the
the collective behavior of eight billion

724
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:18,957
people on planet Earth is like the most
interesting thing in the world. And like

725
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:20,797
the eight billion people on planet
Earth are always getting up to like the

726
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,197
craziest [__] And like if you want
to like write great fiction He was always

727
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,197
telling people who wanted to write
fiction. He's like, "If you want to

728
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,517
write great fiction, you want to go out
and you want to be with the people and

729
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,277
you want to actually observe what's
happening. And it's so crazy that if you

730
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,757
just like write it down, you know, that
that's how you that's how you like write

731
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,277
the great American novel. Like that's
what you do." And so he would famously

732
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,037
do this. And so when he did Bonfire
of the Vanities, he immersed himself in

733
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,917
Wall Street. And when he did Man in Full,
he immersed himself in, you know,

734
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,037
Atlanta real estate. And when he when he,
you know, he did all the, you know,

735
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,837
back back to blood, he immersed himself
in the in the Miami, you know, the Miami

736
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,317
culture and, you know, he he would go
do this. And of course, you know, the his

737
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,597
critique was, you know, the new
generation novelists, they sit in their

738
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,197
apartment in Brooklyn,
you know, you know, you know,

739
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,717
with their typewriter, you know, and and
and they they introspect, right? And and

740
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,397
that's why there's no more
great American novels. And so,

741
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,797
like Ari Aster is like the film he's
like the filmmaker who got that I don't

742
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:09,397
know if he ever got, you know, read
Thomas Wolfe or not, but like where he

743
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,757
he he he understands that. He's like,
oh, go immerse yourself in in in in in

744
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,437
what's actually happening in real life
and trans like that. And he's he's he

745
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,437
was, I don't know, uniquely able to do
it, uniquely able to get away with it.

746
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,157
I'm hoping he's the beginning of a wave
of these. And you know, they don't you

747
00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:25,437
know, it doesn't all have to be about
COVID or the Floyd riots or whatever.

748
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,477
There's many, many other topics you
could do. But like, you know, there

749
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,237
should be a great there should be
a great movie for every basically

750
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,597
significant social
cultural thing that happens.

751
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,837
And and and that and there's those
opportunities are just laying all

752
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,357
there's like hundreds or thousands
of those opportunities just laying on the

753
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,237
ground right now, you know, for for for
the creatives who can go pick them up.

754
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,917
And and again, by the way,
every creative writing this

755
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,477
hearing this is going to say, yeah,
no no [__] But you know, will the

756
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,277
studios greenlight it and pay for it?

757
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,477
And that's that would be my other hope,
which is, you know, some combination of

758
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,117
the bold executives at the streamers and
at the at the at the studios. You know,

759
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,597
example, you know, David David Ellison,
you know, who's clearly very very, you

760
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:02,837
know, brilliant guy, you know, taking
over Paramount and maybe maybe buying

761
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,117
more studios like, you know, guys like
him are in a position to greenlight an

762
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,117
entirely new generation of movie that
could be both commercially successful

763
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,877
and could be true art. Yeah.
Yeah, no. So, I guess is it your

764
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,517
view that like we'll have this like 5 to

765
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:19,797
7 year window of musty films that people
like kind of pretend are decent, but

766
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,277
then like we we kind of get
the Addingtons as well where you're where

767
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,717
you're going to see things open up again.
So, we'll have this sort of like nice

768
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:29,477
period of weirdness. Like I actually
think looking back 50 years from, you

769
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,317
know, 50 years from today, it'll be fun
to look back at these films and be like,

770
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,757
that was wild that that
was what we were talking

771
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:38,677
time. So, I but your your view is that
that it is going to open up. That there

772
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,597
there will be more Addingtons. There'll
be more extremes and it's not just going

773
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:46,357
to be one battle after
another kind of the message.

774
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,437
Yeah, so just quickly one more thing
about battle after another. So, the

775
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:52,877
critics are rapturous about this movie.

776
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,237
Right? And so, if you read Rotten
Tomatoes, the critics are you know, it's

777
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:57,957
like 98% or whatever. And the critics
are just like, this is like the most

778
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,837
brilliant movie of all time. This
completely captures, you know, yes, this

779
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,957
is like this is like the ultimate
chronicling of like America's you know,

780
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,077
descent into being, you know, the Fourth
Reich. Like, you know, this is yes, this

781
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,437
is like absolutely glorious, absolutely
revolutionary. violence should be

782
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:14,397
glorified. Like the the critics are like
all in, right? And and and you know, the

783
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,517
movie critic community has like gone
hard in on this just like, you know,

784
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,277
just like so many other creative
communities. And so, they're all in. By

785
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,517
the way, this movie I don't know if
it's going to, but like it wouldn't be

786
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:24,957
surprising if it sweeps the Oscars,
right? It's just like, you know, the

787
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:26,917
best the best the best movie ever made.

788
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,877
You know, I and and but but now it's
going to just going to be like every

789
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,917
everybody everybody everybody who has
been up been through this, you know,

790
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,877
spin cycle for the last eight years is,
you know, they people are onto it, you

791
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,197
know, including the audience. And so
and so I and I think even the people

792
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,557
participating in kind of what is already
kind of an orgy of kind of hyper

793
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,237
exaggerated critical admiration are
probably all realizing that they're, you

794
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,957
know, fundamentally being dishonest. But
um you know, like so so Catherine, your

795
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:52,757
point like, yeah, that machine like the
the the the sort of the message machine

796
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,597
like that machine is continuing to spin
for now. It's just very clear that like

797
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,557
there's just like smoke and parts flying
off of it. Like it's just like, you

798
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,117
know, it is it is it is going to it
is going to rattle to a stop. And then if

799
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,477
you if you talk to people in Hollywood,
basically what they'll tell you is by by

800
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,197
the way, independent of people's
politics, what the sort of I would say

801
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,717
sharp people in Hollywood generally all
say is, yeah, the the cultural fever has

802
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,317
broken. You can now make you can now get
movies greenlit today that you could not

803
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:18,597
get greenlit two years ago.
Specifically, and this this is amazing

804
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,517
that this is good, but like
you can have comedies again.

805
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,637
Uh Like they actually say by the way, they

806
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,117
say this. Like they're like, we we can
now make comedies again. You can have

807
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,037
funny movies. Right?
Because to have funny movies, you

808
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,237
need to poke a sacred cows, right?
Like the thing that makes comedy funny is

809
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,797
like when it's when it's like subversive
when it when it when it like, you know,

810
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,157
when it touches a nerve. Like that that's
that's, you know, that's what the

811
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:42,677
adult comedy is.
And and you know, you just could not

812
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:44,997
make a funny movie for the last eight
years. Like it was impossible. It was

813
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,117
way too risky. And and but what they're
saying now is that you can. And then

814
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,597
maybe the other single indicator,
Catherine, of what's happening, which is

815
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,757
Mel Gibson finally got
greenlit to do his sequel to

816
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,477
Passion of the Christ, which is the
resurrection movie and which he's which

817
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,477
he's making right now. At least
my friends in Hollywood are like, yeah,

818
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:02,237
that never would have happened. Like
that never would have happened under a

819
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,357
Kamala administration. That never
would have happened without the election

820
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,677
result. And again, these are not even
people who are pro-Trump. It's just,

821
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:12,157
okay. Like the national
mood is shifting. We're not

822
00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:16,357
Yes, Mel Gibson of all of all
people being like one of the

823
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,837
clearly great filmmakers of of our of
our time. And you know, and having all

824
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:24,597
of the issues that Mel Gibson has. Like,
yes, that guy should get to make a movie.

825
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,117
And specifically, that guy should
get to make that movie. And I

826
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,917
that's an example of what I'm talking
about is that that's possible this year

827
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,317
in a way that it wasn't before.
And the and the other thing that

828
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,077
I think yesterday Young Washington
came out, the the trailer, which Joel

829
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,757
Shapiro, which again, is not Hollywood,
it's based in Provo, but has proven that

830
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,637
they can make very successful films
for a different pocket of the country that

831
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:50,357
actually likes patriotism. But I
think in some ways like the the Top Gun

832
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,717
success story, yes, it's nostalgia, but
like the fact that it did so well at the

833
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,677
box office shows that there is an
appetite for totally different content.

834
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:03,197
Like 50% of the country would love
to see movies that are patriotic or about

835
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:06,797
something, you know, a biopic in history
that's really interesting about George

836
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:10,037
Washington. So, I think in some ways
it's like there's there is sort of this

837
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,317
business case too of wow, like you
know, the 50% of the country that's

838
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,837
been starved for the content they want
will actually pay to go to the theater

839
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,797
and maybe we should support them.

840
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:22,837
Yeah. To that end, Mark, do do the do
the executives appreciate the Rotten

841
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,077
Tomatoes phenomenon or just how distinct
sort of the yeah, with the critics or

842
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,277
even their own staff are
from the actual audience?

843
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,797
Yeah, they so they they live it. They
they live it. And so, like I said, like

844
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,277
for the last eight years, it's basically
been a reign of terror. Um because the

845
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,277
the these critics and and like who the
the people these critics represent like

846
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,077
have have the power of life
and death over people's careers.

847
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,277
And then they know the critics kind
of went nuts. But you know, this is the

848
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,797
problem with, you know, there's not
that much they can do about it, right? The

849
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,437
the critics the critics were able to
succeed in their own field. Um you know,

850
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,317
it's just like everything else that
happened in media. The critics were able

851
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,357
to succeed in their own field
by kind of going arbitrarily wild.

852
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,797
Um and then, you know, there
was basically there was basically nothing

853
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,877
that if you're a movie studio executive,
there's really nothing you could do

854
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,837
about it cuz, you know, what do you do
about it if you if you ignore them, they

855
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,197
you know, they attack you. If you
engage with them, they attack you. If you

856
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,477
attack them, they attack you back.
Um and so, you know, there's been very

857
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,917
little to do. And then, you know,
the critics are not Well, okay. So, so

858
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,637
that's been happening. And and you know,
with and Hollywood like Silicon Valley

859
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:17,517
and like every other industry,
like there is insularity to it.

860
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,277
And so, you know, this is a
self-referential thing. And so, when you

861
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,997
know, when the mood when when sort
of opinion shapers, you know, move against

862
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,357
you, you know, it it it becomes
a it becomes a real problem. And and

863
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,717
Hollywood, you know, people get fired,
right? Like, you know, every studio

864
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,117
executive kind of knows that at some
point they're going to get fired. People

865
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,357
get fired off of projects all the time.

866
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,517
When people get fired, by the way, off
of projects in Hollywood, like they may

867
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,037
not, you know, they may not eat.
They may not get another job for five, you

868
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:39,997
know, for two years,
for five years, or ever.

869
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,837
Um and so, you know, it's it's
it's a high-tension environment. Um

870
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,077
And so, yeah, that I think I think they
don't understand that. By the way, I

871
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:49,517
also think that, you know, especially
the sort of, you know, the boomer

872
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,837
executives, the Gen X executives,
you know, they'll also tell you the same

873
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,237
thing you'll hear, you know, that you
heard in the valley and in Washington

874
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,037
and elsewhere, which is, wow, the young
staff is really radicalized, right? And

875
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,517
so, you know, so they're also afraid
of their young staff. Um and then by the

876
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:02,917
way, you know, they they're you know,
these are mostly public companies.

877
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,517
They're also afraid of their boards.
The boards are afraid of the public

878
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:08,597
shareholders. You know, the public
shareholders radicalized. And so, it's a

879
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,117
it's a very similar phenomenon to what
happened in tech. Um which is kind of

880
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,597
this this sort of collective I don't know,
like wildness or you know, kind of

881
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,357
kind of you know, kind of this this this
this intensity thing, you know, kind of

882
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:23,197
happened. And and and then it really
couldn't be openly discussed for a long

883
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,997
time and probably still can't. Like they
probably still really can't talk about

884
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:28,317
it in public. A few of them are starting
to, but like not really. So, for the

885
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,277
most part, the conversations
are kind of in the background.

886
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,037
But again, but against that, it's just
like, okay, that that's that's broken a

887
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,757
bit. And part of it also is just the
business the business you know, the kind

888
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,637
of business aspect of it. Which is I mean,
the the the classic is, you know,

889
00:47:41,720 --> 00:47:43,717
the the big money maker in Hollywood
for the last 20 years has been superhero

890
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,437
movies. Um and and let's just say
coincident with the beginning of the

891
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,837
message is the all the you know,
the results in those movies collapsed.

892
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,837
Right? And so, and and and like at some
point, you know, they they need to go

893
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,077
sell some movie tickets. Like it it, you
know, at some point they need to deliver

894
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,517
revenue. And I and I I and I think
they've gotten, I don't know, the

895
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,157
message of the message, which is,
you know, if if if if all you are is on

896
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:05,677
board with the social trend, right?

897
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:07,797
Especially, Catherine, your point,
especially when that social trend gets

898
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,877
old and it's no longer,
you know, au courant. Like

899
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,597
you you can't run a public company based
on on on reviews, right? It it like at

900
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,277
some point, butts do
have to show up in seats.

901
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,037
And so, I I think that that's also
kicked in. And so, the the financial

902
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,197
pressures are very painful right now.

903
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,837
They're probably not helpful.
I don't know, the financial pressures in

904
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,597
Hollywood are are it's hard
to say cuz on the one hand,

905
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,517
when there's financial pressures
in Hollywood, of course, the argument is

906
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,997
fewer movies get get greenlit. And then
and then the executives become more

907
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,877
risk-averse in the kinds of movies
they're willing to greenlight. But I

908
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,597
think it also means that they are also
less willing to greenlight projects that

909
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,197
are being greenlit only for political
reasons or only for social cultural

910
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,477
reasons or only out of a sense of fear.

911
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,757
And so, I don't know exactly
how that balances, but hopefully

912
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,037
hopefully things get more exciting.
By the way, of course, the other big topic

913
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,997
in Hollywood is AI.
I was just going to ask

914
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,677
Yeah, so that's the you know, that's the
800 lb thing. And you know, and and you

915
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:59,637
know, to their credit, they're you know,
they're saying they're they're highly

916
00:48:59,720 --> 00:49:03,517
aware of it. They're highly alert alert
to it. And then by the way, there are a

917
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:05,997
bunch of filmmakers, including some
folks that I know, that are like super

918
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:10,197
excited. And so, there there are
including some like I know of like two

919
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,357
like A triple A list like director
filmmakers, you know, top end people who

920
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,357
are like very excited about what's
possible. And are going to are going to

921
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,237
fully embrace it. And there's there's
a bunch of other people who are, you know,

922
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,317
very excited. And so, so there's
going to be an embrace by at

923
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:26,957
least part. But there's also there's
also, you know, there's a lot of, you

924
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,677
know, Hollywood has always had kind
of a fear-driven irrationality to new

925
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,597
technologies. And there's some of that.

926
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,917
And then and then there is this
attachment in in is is actually very

927
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:40,037
acute. There's this attachment of like
AI politics to like woke politics. And

928
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:44,197
so if if you're if you're still super
woke, you're also like super anti-AI.

929
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,117
Um and there are these like basically
the it's basically like the woke

930
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,397
activists have picked up AI as the new
thing that they're going to agitate

931
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,557
about. Um and so they're mounting
basically already like pressure

932
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:55,877
campaigns on the studios to like
basically vow to never use AI. And at

933
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:58,197
least so far the studios to their credit
are like, "No, we're not going to do

934
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,917
that." Um like we're we're we we we
you know the studio So far I think the

935
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:04,437
studio executives have all been
consistent, which is like, "Look, we've

936
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,517
always used technology. Um you know
the movie camera itself is technology.

937
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,397
Special effects, like we've
we've always used technology.

938
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,677
You know, video tapes, DVDs, streaming,
these are all technologies. Um you know,

939
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:18,397
every movie has CGI. We you know like
that's you know, one of my little fun

940
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:21,357
facts about the history of movies
is Tron Tron was the first There's a big

941
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,997
sequel for Tron that's out this week.

942
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:26,957
The original Tron was 1980 82 um from
from Disney and it was the first movie

943
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,357
that had integrated use of computer
graphics, which was the the big thing at

944
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,077
the time. Um and um and as a consequence
of that, Tron was disqualified from the

945
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,157
Oscars um because they cheated uh by using

946
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:42,477
computer graphics. Right? Right? And so
and so you know, to go from the that

947
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,837
world to the world in which every movie
has CGI and and for the most part you

948
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,437
don't even know that there's CGI in it.

949
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,957
You just see a romantic comedy
and they're using CGI to do all kinds of

950
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:51,957
things in it and you don't even notice
and it's just taken completely for

951
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:55,917
granted. And so like I I I I think
the studios the studios I think understand

952
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,597
that. I think they're going
to they're going to actually embrace AI

953
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,317
enthusiastically. But there's going
to be this there's going to be this like

954
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:03,917
there at least there's an attempt
to like gin up a moral panic around it

955
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,437
and try to you know, basically keep it
out. And I I don't think it's going to

956
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,037
work cuz I think the economics are too
compelling. But but anyway, but then the

957
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,597
other thing with AI is of course AI
is going to be super helpful to existing

958
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,397
filmmakers. But the other thing is AI
for sure and we you know, we see this

959
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,877
especially in this last last in this
last couple weeks with the new version

960
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:21,437
of Sora. Um and and a lot of these other
new things that are coming out, AI is

961
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,437
going to make a whole
new kind of filmmaker

962
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,117
possible to exist for the first time.

963
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,557
Which is the filmmaker with no visual

964
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,277
skill. Right? Or access to a set or to a

965
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,277
camera or to actors, but with an idea.

966
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,277
Um like you like people are going to be
able to make you know, it's going to

967
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:41,797
start with shorts and animated things
and so forth. But it's going to it's

968
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,397
going to work its way up to full movies.

969
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:47,517
Um and so you know, people with a people
people who otherwise would be limited to

970
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:52,037
only being novelists or being maybe
people who do graphic novels. Um but are

971
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,037
creative geniuses um are are
going to be able to actually

972
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,797
make full movies with AI and I and again
I think I think that's a reason for like

973
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,717
profound optimism. I think we're going
to get like completely new kinds of you

974
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,557
know, basically film entertainment from
people who otherwise never would would

975
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,557
would have been able to to access
the medium. And I and I think that also is

976
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,637
I'm very positive on that.
Can we add because you you brought it up

977
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:15,597
um on comedy? I I know you saw an N
or the the new Naked Gun film. What what

978
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,637
were your thoughts on is comedy working?

979
00:52:17,720 --> 00:52:20,837
Is it is it does it have to be nostalgic
for it to work? But maybe tell us a

980
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,237
little bit about that film and and
whether it's a a reason to be positive

981
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:27,277
on comedies in the future.
Yeah, so I thought Naked Naked Gun I

982
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,397
thought was actually a little bit
of a minor miracle. Um so uh for a couple

983
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,557
couple reasons. So one is look, it's
it's it's a sequel to movies from like

984
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,757
40 years ago. Um and so you know,
how many people even remember the original

985
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,277
Naked Gun movies? It actually turns
out a lot of people do. They're they're

986
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,557
beloved movies, but also it turns out
like you can you you can make an Like

987
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:44,957
it's it's great. It's it's great.
It's a great comedy. It's like a fantastic

988
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,557
comedy. It's very funny.
Um uh it worked it worked. It worked

989
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,557
commercially. It worked it worked
artistically. It it it it it it honored

990
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,477
the original material, but it was also
like it was it was deliriously loopy in

991
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:59,397
its own way. I highly recommend it. It's
it's it's very funny. Um but it actually

992
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:03,277
is striking to that point. Um it it
it also like like anything it's also a

993
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,837
post-message movie.
Um and and and this is actually and

994
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,117
maybe this is a reason for optimism,
which is again if you go back through

995
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,957
the time scale like that thing was
greenlit no later than '22, probably in

996
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:16,237
'21. So at the height of every movie has
to have the message, um that that movie

997
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,517
was still greenlit and it got all
the way through and out the other side and

998
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:22,277
there's not a trace of it in it. Um
and so like it's it's a pure it's a pure

999
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,037
comedy. It's a pure comedy. It's it's
like the original movies. It's a pure

1000
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,397
comedy. It's a pure absurdist uh uh you
know, kind of modern Three Stooges you

1001
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:31,357
know, kind of style comedy. Liam Neeson
of course plays against plays against

1002
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,557
type uh and is of course a brilliant
comedian and and just kills it. And then

1003
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:39,157
Pamela Anderson um you know, the the
great icon of you know, 1980s you know,

1004
00:53:39,240 --> 00:53:42,557
femininity. Um you know,
it's her big it's her big you

1005
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,037
know, starring role and she just like
absolutely is just fantastic. Like she's

1006
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,077
just like absolutely kills it. She's
hysterical. Um and she's just like and

1007
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,517
she's just like there as a person
and like she's not you know, she's not

1008
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,197
wearing you know, she's just like you
know, she's she's like you know, she's

1009
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,317
like just like full woman um in natural

1010
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:01,077
form. Um and is is it's it's great. Um

1011
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:05,597
and you know, and it's you know, it's like
there's any there's there's there's no

1012
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,397
there's none of the casting let's say
you know, aspects that kind of cause

1013
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,597
problems. Um you know, there's none
of the script there's no script it's just

1014
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,357
it's just like an extremely
well-executed like it very easily could

1015
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:18,437
have been made in 2012 or 2008 or 2002.

1016
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:22,677
Um now look, it it doesn't you know it
doesn't move the artistic ball forward.

1017
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,717
Right? It's a very well-executed example
of a genre. Um but it but it is a movie

1018
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:30,037
that it was it was somehow able
to escape all of the traps that all of

1019
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,397
these other movies have gotten into.
Um uh and and it was able to make it out

1020
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,837
and to be a big commercial hit. And and
again I think I think the I think the

1021
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,197
executives are are are
very encouraged by that.

1022
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,157
Um the audience is still there for that.

1023
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:42,437
I'll just give you the it does it
doesn't really have any like racial

1024
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,117
politics or whatever, but it does have
it it it did have one thing, which is

1025
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,557
for people who haven't seen it, it was
famously a movie originally that one of

1026
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,077
the one of the major stars
of it was O.J. Simpson.

1027
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,837
Um playing a character named Nordberg um

1028
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:58,717
who got into all kinds
of unlikely trouble. Um and um

1029
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:02,517
uh so they do this scene where just
spoil one thing cuz it was it was

1030
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:06,277
extremely funny. Um Liam Neeson So
Neeson Liam Neeson plays the son of the

1031
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,477
original you know, main main guy Leslie
Nielsen in the movie. So Frank Frank

1032
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,797
Drebin and then and then Leslie Liam
Neeson plays Frank Drebin Jr. And

1033
00:55:13,880 --> 00:55:18,717
then uh and then Liam's sidekick plays
the son of of of of of uh of Leslie

1034
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,477
Nielsen's sidekick in the original movie.
And then and then there and then

1035
00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:22,757
there's a young black guy on the team.

1036
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:25,397
Um and and you know, normally in a movie
it's like, "Okay, of course there's like

1037
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,997
a young black guy on the team." But then
they do it they do it really well. Uh

1038
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:31,117
which is they've got the out in the out
in the hallway of the police station in

1039
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,757
the movie, they've got Leslie Nielsen's
photo up on the you know, he passed

1040
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,517
away. So they they got
his photo up and and

1041
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:38,837
uh Liam Neeson does this thing where he
like kneels down and he's like, "Oh, you

1042
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,597
know, father I'm trying to live up to
your you know, expectation and trying to

1043
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,477
be a great police officer." and he's
like sobbing. There's tears and you

1044
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,037
know, next to it is like his sidekick
with the sidekick's photo and he's like,

1045
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,637
"Oh, father I miss you so much and I
I want to be a great cop." And then

1046
00:55:49,720 --> 00:55:52,157
there's you know, the the the the the
black kid and he's looking up at a at a

1047
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:58,840
photo of O.J. Uh and he just and he
just look at the camera and he just goes

1048
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,637
Perfect. Perfection.
Absolutely perfect. Yes. So yeah,

1049
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:11,957
comedies are good. By the way, let me
put in a plug for one more movie. Um uh

1050
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:14,517
have either of you guys
seen Fantastic Four?

1051
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,917
No. No. Probably not. Um Fantastic Four is

1052
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:22,797
the most pro-family movie uh
in Hollywood since I can't even

1053
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,357
remember. Wow.
Um uh Katherine in particular I think

1054
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,997
you'll be astonished. Yeah.
It's incredible. When did it come out?

1055
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:33,197
What's that? When did it come out?
It came out this summer. It came out this

1056
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,157
summer. It came out this summer and Marvel
just for context it's it's one of

1057
00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:38,997
the big Mar it's one of the new
Marvel one of the new Marvel tentpole

1058
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,837
properties. Um and and the the Marvel
the Marvel machine you know, did

1059
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,037
incredibly well from like Iron Man
in 2008 through Avengers: Endgame in like

1060
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:50,117
whatever 2020. But for the last 5 years
many of the big Marvel projects have

1061
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,157
have have not done well both the TV
shows and the movies and and you know,

1062
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:55,757
you could again you could argue
different reasons why, but like critical

1063
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,917
drinker would tell you it's because
they became consumed by the message. Um

1064
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,037
Fantastic Four is it's it's it's and you
know, like it's like a you know, it's

1065
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,037
like a diverse cast. It's got it's got
like a lot of of the the modern stuff in

1066
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:10,957
it. But however, Ann um it's like it's
just like 100% pro-family. Um in like a

1067
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,757
very actually quite deep and moving way.

1068
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,077
Um and so it it again again it's just
it's a little bit like, "Wow, they

1069
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,517
greenlit this this thing in 20" And and
you know, maybe again maybe this is a

1070
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,797
reason for maybe I'm
actually too too cynical.

1071
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,997
Maybe in 2022 they already real
the filmmakers already realized what was

1072
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,397
happening. And so maybe they actually
had like their own version of the

1073
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:29,637
underground movement where they're like,
"All right, it's time to start planting

1074
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,797
the seeds for what is going to come out
of this whole thing when when sort of

1075
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,597
the panic subsides um and and and you
can say like Fantastic Four is like it's

1076
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:39,797
like a true audience-pleasing
blockbuster from a studio that has been

1077
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,877
obsessed with the message. Um that comes
out and doesn't have a trace of it in it

1078
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:48,437
at all. Um and um and and furthermore
it's like it's like 100% about

1079
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,357
like I I wouldn't say it's like an it's
not I mean it's a it's a superhero movie

1080
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:53,877
so it's not like a political. I wouldn't
say it has like political content per

1081
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:57,677
se, but um it's like it's like
100% pro-family in a way that's very

1082
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,677
touching. Okay, we'll put it on the list.
Um do you think Atlas Shrugged

1083
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:02,557
>> it. By the way, your kids will love it.

1084
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,037
Your kids will love it. I took
my 10-year-old and like he was like yeah.

1085
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:07,517
Yeah. He doesn't he doesn't react
emotionally to things, but he was like

1086
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:11,357
as close to crying in a movie as I've
ever seen him. So Wow. Do you think

1087
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,437
Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead could
could get made today? And do you think

1088
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,117
there'd be an audience for it?

1089
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:18,717
You know, it's funny. Yeah yeah.

1090
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,917
It's funny. Yeah. It's so funny.
Especially Atlas Like

1091
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,317
Atlas Shrugged has become Atlas Shrugged
is Atlas Shrugged you know, people don't

1092
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,757
know it's the sort of famous Ayn
Rand novel. It it's kind of her most

1093
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,277
successful novel. Um it's it's
the novel that basically it

1094
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,437
it it it it clearly is like a great
mythic American novel. Like it it

1095
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,237
clearly it clearly plays that part
that we were talking about earlier.

1096
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:41,557
You know, it's it's it is one of the great
American novels. Um you know, it's

1097
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,437
it's of a time and place, which is sort
of the you know, the sort of 1950s, but

1098
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:47,037
it it it it's written in a way that could
be kind of deliberately timeless.

1099
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:49,117
It's it's it's actually kind of it's
actually kind of interesting how it's

1100
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:51,917
written cuz it kind of it it
it's like obsessed with railroads

1101
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,357
on the one hand, which makes it kind
of look back to the 1800s. Um but it also

1102
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:58,037
it's also has like science fiction
elements. And she kind of did that I

1103
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,117
think deliberately so that it would
kind of have this timeless kind of

1104
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:04,197
She's really talking about the you know,
some movie it's a novel as the great

1105
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,717
novel. So it's a novel about people and
the behavior of people. Um and so um but

1106
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:11,677
she does this thing where she kind
of abstracts the specific content of it in

1107
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:13,757
order to kind of try to make it timeless.
And I think I think it works

1108
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,557
quite well. Um and then The Fountainhead
is is another version of that. The the

1109
00:59:17,640 --> 00:59:21,597
Atlas Shrugged basically is about
is about is about broadly is about it's

1110
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,197
about it's about it's about American
dynamism. It's it's American dynamism in

1111
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,557
the movie. It's about industrialization
and progress and science and going to

1112
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,597
the stars and like you know, achieving
great things. Um and um you know, and

1113
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:33,997
and and the shape of society to do that.

1114
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:38,237
Um the Fountainhead is is is more about
I would say artistic achievement um and

1115
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,717
and artistic purity. Um uh and it's
sort of similarly evocative.

1116
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:44,077
And so both of those novels are you know,
high up on the list of novels that

1117
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,917
will be very influential, you know,
in 100 years. Both of those novels have

1118
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,077
been absolutely scathingly hated
by every, you know, good cultural

1119
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,797
commentator and critic for the last,
you know, basically since they came out.

1120
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:56,837
Like just And and and those novels are
just attacked in like the most vicious

1121
00:59:56,920 --> 01:00:01,197
possible terms.
Um like absolutely um absolutely. Uh

1122
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,997
there was in fact famously famously
uh Whittaker Chambers, the reformed

1123
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,117
communist, uh reviewed uh Atlas Shrugged
for National Review when it came out in

1124
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,397
the 1950s and he you know,
he basically called her a Nazi.

1125
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,757
Uh in National Review, Whittaker Chambers,
who became this famous right-winger,

1126
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,717
basically calls Ayn Rand a Nazi. Ayn Rand,
of course, being a Jewish refugee

1127
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,117
from Russia. Um he he said
he said the novel quote has

1128
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:22,997
the whiff of the gas chamber about it.

1129
01:00:23,080 --> 01:00:26,797
Right? And so like but by the way,
it doesn't. But but

1130
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:31,317
anyway, very unfair unfair. Um but um

1131
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,837
but anyway, it's like the it's like your
diversity of the Rotten Tomatoes scores

1132
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,117
of the of the critics versus the versus
the audience. Like basically everybody

1133
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,677
who's read Atlas Shrugged like loves it.

1134
01:00:40,760 --> 01:00:43,437
Um and everybody who's like criticized
it for a living just [__] despises

1135
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:47,477
it. Right? Just like completely despises
it. Um and so and and what's what's

1136
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:49,877
interesting about it and maybe this is
the importance of the novel is to your

1137
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,437
question like that that that aspect of

1138
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:57,957
it has lives today. So like anybody
today who anybody today who every time

1139
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,517
I've ever talked to anybody who's read
Atlas Shrugged in the last 10 years and

1140
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,237
they're like, "Wow. It's like the novel
about the world we live in." Like it's

1141
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:07,397
it's it's it's like, "Oh, I know that guy
and I know that guy and I know that guy."

1142
01:01:07,480 --> 01:01:09,237
And Eric knows what I'm talking about.

1143
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,157
Um they like these are all people,
right? Like these are all people. These

1144
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:15,277
are all archetypes of people.
We know who these people are. We know what

1145
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:18,877
they're doing. And like it's just it's
amazing how perceptive it is, you know,

1146
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:22,477
60 or 80 years later. Like how how
how primal she made it that it has that

1147
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:25,597
relevance. Um it And by the way, it's
tremendously entertaining and it's like

1148
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,277
this sprawling narrative and it's just
incredible characters. And so yeah, it

1149
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,557
like it very clearly ought to be
a three-part movie or you know, at a at a

1150
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,557
huge budget or ought it ought to be like
an eight season, you know, 10 episode,

1151
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:37,757
80 episode total, you know, lavish HBO

1152
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,637
show or something. But like the cultural

1153
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:44,797
like the cultural overlay of that like
what it would take in Hollywood to do

1154
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,797
that and the the level of attack
that you would come under,

1155
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:50,317
the level of savagery that you would
encounter if you're the executive or the

1156
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:52,917
actor or whatever. I mean, it would it
would be every bit as intense today as

1157
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:54,997
it was in 1950s when the novel came out.

1158
01:01:55,080 --> 01:01:58,877
And so like like that would be the great
like that would be the indication like

1159
01:01:58,960 --> 01:02:00,637
we're in a like really different world.

1160
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,277
I've I've talked to some folks
in Hollywood about it. They they they all

1161
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,837
know it. They all understand this.
They all know the novel. They're you know,

1162
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:08,557
they're all very familiar with it. They
all, by the way, love the idea of of of

1163
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:11,677
doing things that have pre-existing
brands and audiences built in.

1164
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:14,757
Um you know, because that that really
reduces the risk. But like they if you

1165
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,557
really talk about it, they it's a little
bit like a hot stove, you know, step

1166
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,197
away. And by the way, and again,
it's very striking that a novel from like

1167
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,597
whatever 1953 can still
be generating a hot stove

1168
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:27,837
reaction in 2025.
You know, it's pretty amazing.

1169
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:30,637
And and the flip side of that is because
it's such a cult classic that people

1170
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,797
would come out in droves. Like it would
you know, it would it would make a lot

1171
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:36,677
of noise in a good way. It would be
the it would be the Silicon Valley version

1172
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,197
of the Minecraft movie. Right? Like
it would just be like, "Yep, we're all

1173
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,437
going." Yeah. Um but uh you
know, I mean I don't know.

1174
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,117
Maybe maybe that maybe it's not a big
enough audience or whatever to to to you

1175
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,037
know, maybe maybe that's not a big
enough cult classic thing. But like it

1176
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,317
By the way, it sells. Like the it
you know, it's one of the best-selling

1177
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,437
novels of all time. It sells, you know,
enormously well today. It sold well

1178
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,917
basically since it came out. Um you
know, it's it's it sells it sells far

1179
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,277
better you know, I mean, it's one
of these things. It sells it all sells far

1180
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,317
more copies this year than any
well-reviewed novel you know, that the

1181
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,277
New York Times book review talks about,
right? And so and and yet it is just

1182
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,997
like it is so completely politically
unacceptable that it's like off the map.

1183
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,597
Um yeah, so that that would be the
ultimate test. I I would love to see it

1184
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,757
happen. I I yeah, I I don't know. And by
the way, this may maybe maybe the answer

1185
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,877
here maybe this is the AI, right?
Maybe the answer here is AI.

1186
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,197
Uh maybe what we need is AI system where
you feed the novel in and it makes the

1187
01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:25,637
movie. Um you know, which By the way,
for sure you know, now that

1188
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:27,637
I say that like for sure
that's going to happen.

1189
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,517
Um and so you know, maybe
that's actually the answer.

1190
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,997
Yeah. Yeah, we were laughing
offline about how someone

1191
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:37,917
was using Sora to make like
a something that we thought was better

1192
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:41,837
than South Park. And and so it'll be
interesting to see if a whole new crop

1193
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:45,397
of filmmaker sort of you
know, democratizes the

1194
01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,037
industry a little bit that's not just
Hollywood, but it's people, you know,

1195
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,117
from all over and and studios
don't have this sort of

1196
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,277
you know, monopoly over over creation
of of high quality stuff. So yeah, we'll

1197
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,557
see. Yeah, so South Park actually
let's let's let's close up closing this

1198
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,237
briefly South Park. South Park was very
much like what you're saying with AI

1199
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,757
film making right now, but in 1990
19 1993. So I remember when South Park

1200
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,917
original South Park came out, the original
South Park came out in 1993 and

1201
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,197
it was significant. It was the
first internet viral video ever.

1202
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:14,397
Um it was the first video and this was
like pre-streaming, pre-YouTube, pre you

1203
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,317
know, years before all of that. And so
it literally distributed at the time as

1204
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,997
a it was a literally a it
was a QuickTime movie.

1205
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,717
Um uh it was a Apple's QuickTime video
format. Um and it was a downloadable

1206
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:25,837
thing. And like if you wanted
to download it on a modem, you had to like

1207
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,117
leave the modem on for like an hour
or something to download this thing. And

1208
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,037
what and what it was was it
was a it was a digital scan of a um

1209
01:04:32,120 --> 01:04:35,757
of a video Christmas card. So there was
a an executive in Hollywood at the time

1210
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:38,357
that wanted to make his friends
a special kind of Christmas card. And so

1211
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,757
he hired these two basically scrappy
young, you know, basically film students

1212
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,557
Matt Stone and Trey Parker, who had no
credits and you know, they were just you

1213
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:46,197
know, kids and hadn't done anything yet.

1214
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:48,957
And he hired them to And he basically
said, "Make the most offensive basically

1215
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,557
like three-minute video Christmas card
you can possibly imagine." And so and

1216
01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:54,757
and what these what these kids do
is it's like it was the technology at the

1217
01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:57,717
time. What they did was they camcorders
digital camcorders digital camcorders

1218
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,197
were brand new. So they used digital
camcorder and then but then then they

1219
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:04,037
did stop they did stop motion they
had no money. So they did stop motion

1220
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,837
animation using little cardboard
using literally construction paper uh

1221
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:09,917
characters. And so the reason
the characters look like they do is cuz

1222
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,597
literally in the original thing they
were cut out of construction paper. And

1223
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:15,757
they were literally moved by hand frame
to frame. And then and then and then the

1224
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:17,517
two kids did did did the voice overs.

1225
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:19,917
But it was from the very beginning it
was the same characters Cartman and Kyle

1226
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:24,117
and Stan and Kenny. Right? And and and
and and in in South Park, which is the

1227
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:27,357
town that these kids grew up in. Um
and then it was a three-minute Christmas

1228
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:32,397
card and it was it was uh Santa Claus
versus Jesus. Um and and and and Santa

1229
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,717
Claus versus Jesus ended up
in a in a full kung fu fight,

1230
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:38,557
you know, complete with like
blood and like body parts.

1231
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:41,477
Right? And so it was like this it
was like, you know, massively it was

1232
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,157
intended to be like massively offensive.

1233
01:05:43,240 --> 01:05:46,517
But it was like it was like really it
was it was really funny. And so somebody

1234
01:05:46,600 --> 01:05:49,997
got it and literally it was sent
out on videotape. Right? Uh it was a

1235
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:52,757
pre-pre-DVD, right? So it was sent
out on videotape and somebody actually

1236
01:05:52,840 --> 01:05:55,437
scanned the videotape, which is actually
hard to do. And then it it went super

1237
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:57,357
viral on the internet uh and became big.

1238
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,357
And so it's an example of you know,
that that that everything I just described

1239
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:04,197
the camcorder. Like that that was the
the AI of its time. It let these kids

1240
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:07,477
who had no access or no knowledge
even necessarily of like traditional

1241
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,717
animation production methods to do this.

1242
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,157
Um by the way, when those kids actually
then got their their they they then

1243
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,717
actually, you know, South Park's like
a full studio now. You know, it's been

1244
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:17,517
tremendously financially successful.

1245
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,597
They they now have a complete
state-of-the-art studio production

1246
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:22,997
facility. And what they've used it
for is they've used it to hyper-optimize

1247
01:06:23,080 --> 01:06:26,357
computer models of the optimal
recreation of the aesthetics of the

1248
01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:29,557
construction paper. And so if
you watch South Park episodes

1249
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:32,597
today, you see actually the characters
have there's actually a depth to the

1250
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:35,477
animation that shows the layers
of the construction paper. And it's all

1251
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,037
produced digitally today. But like
they've used state-of-the-art digital

1252
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:40,557
tools to re- to to to reconstruct the

1253
01:06:40,640 --> 01:06:42,277
physics of construction paper.

1254
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:45,197
Um you know, you know, 30 years later.

1255
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,157
Um and so yeah, so so they were able
to do that. And then obviously, you know,

1256
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:51,717
they were maybe the maybe the most
successful like animation duo

1257
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,797
of the last 30 years. And yeah, I think
that the AI thing is we're we're right

1258
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:58,237
on the tipping point um of that. And and
your point like maybe maybe we actually

1259
01:06:58,320 --> 01:07:01,997
just saw the first one. It's it's it's
so um let's say toxic that it's hard to

1260
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:03,197
recommend that people watch it.

1261
01:07:03,280 --> 01:07:04,917
>> Yeah, yeah, we will. Um

1262
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,117
but um it is it it is it is a it's for

1263
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:12,317
sure a South Park caliber level thing
created in AI by somebody who didn't use

1264
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,597
any of traditional, you know, they
didn't use any they had they didn't use

1265
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:18,517
any of traditional, you know, techniques
to use for animating anything. Uh it was

1266
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,277
created entirely with
Sora uh scene by scene.

1267
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,757
Um and yeah, it's it just as a as a as
a as a demonstration of technology, it's

1268
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,637
just it's obvious that that
moment has now arrived. I I

1269
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:30,997
And your point, Eric, like I do think
for example, I I think there's now

1270
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,557
actually a new form
of political propaganda

1271
01:07:33,640 --> 01:07:35,757
uh at loose in the world, which
is you know, that basically the custom

1272
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:39,317
produced, you know, basically South
Park-ish, you know, kind of you know,

1273
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:43,757
video series. And and AI is going
to make that so easy for people to do. The

1274
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,197
the you're going to be able to do
you know, anybody in any you know, any

1275
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:48,597
electoral race is going to be able
to hire some kid to you know, to to to do

1276
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:51,077
things like this. Um and so it's going
to be like this it's like I don't know,

1277
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:54,557
decentralize satire or something like
that. And so yeah, the the the the

1278
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,997
moment has arrived.
They they're off to the races again.

1279
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,717
On that note, we got to let you go.

1280
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,277
Um but this has been a fantastic episode
of Monitoring the Situation. Thanks so

1281
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:03,837
much for coming on, Mark. All right.

1282
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:07,360
Fantastic. Situation Monitor.