Sylvester Stallone Hid His Struggles for Decades. Now He’s Coming Clean.

Introduction and revisiting painful memories

00:00I live on regrets. I can make a castle. Out of regrets.

00:07I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and today I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone. At 80 years old, the star of Rocky is telling his own against all odds story in a new memoir, The Steps, an allusion to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes.

00:27In the book, Stallone details an abusive and tortured childhood and how that fueled his success in some of Hollywood's most well-known franchises. It's over, Jenny. It's over. Nothing is over. Nothing. What became clear in our conversation is that behind that tough guy exterior he became famous for, there were deep struggles with his emotions, his body and his family. It's a Sylvester Stallone you've never seen before. I became bulimic. You didn't know that. OK, I didn't hear first. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you.

01:09your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview.

01:19It has been 50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure. Since the movie that started it all, Rocky, came out. You're now 80 years old, which I'm sure is also hard to believe. It is. You know, in reading this memoir, one of the things that struck me is that, you know, some of these memories are quite painful for you. And you wrote in the book... that At difficult moments in your life, you told yourself to, quote, put those memories away in a box and avoid them, just move forward. What was it like to go back and revisit some of these things for this book? You know, it was a mixed emotion. There used to be some, like, you know, tears. There'd be some laughter. There'd be some anger, bitterness. And then I thought, you know, maybe...

02:06In one way... That was the motivation to do something extraordinary as opposed to, you know, just being very languid and, oh, I had a nice relationship growing up, but I have no... angst inside of me, that fuel. So I've always been on that cusp like, You know, the guy punched you in your mouth, but did he do you a favor? Because now you go to the gym and you become a tough guy. You know, some those things. I truly believe that the parents are the mold makers. They're sculptors. They don't realize it. But they're sculptors, they're Rodin's, and they're sculpting their masterpiece or their disaster. Yeah. I want to start, actually, at the very beginning because... You came into the world, in many ways, how you have inhabited it. Well, you know, with a lot of turmoil, a lot of drama, it was a rough entry. Can you tell me about the day you were born? Well, it was my mother really, she also came from a lot of turmoil. And she really wasn't mother material. And she had grandiose plans for her life.

Childhood and difficult parents

03:22Her pregnancy with me was a big-time interruption. I don't think she wanted to really believe it was happening, even though it was in the ninth month and she was finally on a bus and she goes into labor and she says, I want to have it here. It was bad. And then we just happened to be near a medical center, you might call it, like a charity award. It's like there weren't even doctors there. We were just mainly interns and one doctor. And that's my... That's my first breath on earth. Yeah. I mean, here in New York City, it was a bus right here. And the people who delivered you used forceps and they partially paralyzed your face, right? Could have been worse. Because sometimes you get brain damage from it. Maybe that happened too. I don't know.

04:08It was a terrible thing growing up because I slurred and I mumbled. It was like 10 times worse than Rocky. It was rough. Did you see yourself back then as having a disability when you were young? Yeah, it was. You're not aware of it. Even if you have a lisp or a stutter, you're so familiar with it. But other people, you know, what? What? Jesus, say anything. What language is that? Oh, God. you know, In the book, you seem to suggest that both your parents saw your arrival as having ruined their ambitions in some way. You wrote, can you really make people proud who never wanted you in the first place? And when you were very little, you were sent to go live in a boarding house. I mean, you were very little. Yeah. And your parents only visited you once a month. I've got to say, this is, by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff.

05:12And... You know, it's very clear that when you were young, you never got the love, you never got the support, that most... children need. I mean, how did you understand that as a kid? How did it make you feel? I don't know if there was some preventative thing or some blockage of being kind of completely abandoned or forlorn or whatever. I just was raised by strangers in a boarding house, and it became sort of a natural environment. And my parents really were never nurturing. So this Compared to where I was living. I think... If you are emotionally deprived when you're younger, you learn to lock things away, which is why I started with that quote about you locking things away. Do you think it made you like...

06:06Tough? In the wrong way, yeah. It made me very tough. And I literally haven't figured out real, real, real, real true love until, you know, like 70. It really was, you know, because you have different incarnations of love. You think this is it or this or that. But to really have unequivocally like true love that I love for my wife and my kids, I mean, that total abandonment, that reckless love that you would jump into a volcano for them. late and that's a big pity it really is because I was so consumed with not being another bum from the neighborhood I was very very competitive like a pit bull Like it's just, that's what got me going. It's not healthy. And I would have conversation with my wife and my brother or anyone at the time about why I was so competitive. It really was, it was, but then again. Made you who you are. Yeah. And you've had quite a life.

Divorce and separation from mother

07:07Your parents had this very hostile and... violent marriage in many ways. And they divorced when you were about 11 years old. Is that right? Yeah, 10, 10 and a half, 11. Yeah. I mean, what do you remember about that separation? And how did they decide to split you and your brother up? It was traumatic. I'm not sure about how my brother reacted. But when she goes, I'm leaving, I won't be living here anymore. And I go, where are you going? Because I'm just, I remember... holding onto her leg. And like being literally dragged to the, yeah, it was like, you know what I mean? Like, hey, mom, come back. And this point you guys were all living together. Yeah, and she pulled the leg away, out the door, and that was it. And my brother came home a little bit after that, and there was nobody there. You know, I guess my father took me to the shop or something, so he was abandoned, and he never got over that.

08:07Ever. That scene, I'm so sorry, I just want to linger on it, of just you holding... It was rough. I'm telling you, it was one of those things where your legs buckle, you drop down, you grab around like a leg. Try to tackle her. What was going on? I don't know, because she never was a loving person. I know I'm not alone in this, that there's a connection. At birth, that some people have that's so palpable that no matter what, you cannot break away from this ability or need to have this person's attention. It's like electric and then being deprived and put into the dark. It's a terrible syndrome. It really is. It's 100% true. You can never get rid of the connection to your parents. So is that blood thicker than water? I used to say, no, it's just stickier.

Living with an abusive father

09:05But it is thicker. I mean, there's something there that is quite painful. It really is. You go to Maryland and you end up living with your dad. He loved horses. He played polo. But what was it like living alone with your dad? Because we've talked a little bit about your mom, but that – didn't sound like a great time either. It would be, I guess, these constant bombastic explosions, and then total silence. Because if he were talking, and then he said, you know, I don't know if I agree with that. He starts spinning his fork, and suck his teeth, and you knew what was big hands you just learn to duck a little bit but there are sometimes i'll never forget um you know i don't know this poor slide but all right no i really i didn't put a lot of stuff in the book because i didn't want a pity party but it was it was insane for example it's church

10:21Before we go to church, go to the store, which is a block way by, some bread. Okay, I go down there. I see a couple of my friends. Oh, I got to get back. And I bring home sandwich spread. Nut bread. Oh. And he kicked me in the stomach and hit me and like laid me out, got in the car and went to church. I'm there in the street, Thai, this kind of thing, with mayonnaise. It really is. It's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. Did you... Ever fight back?

11:01This is going to sound very, I guess, Greek tragedy kind of thing. Like... When I was... say 43, 44. And he was 25 years older than me. He goes, Hey, you know, you're doing this, you're doing that. Is there anything left in your life that you'd like to do? I said, I wish you and I could be the same age. Three minutes. And he goes, "Well," I said, "Because I'd like to give you some of your own medicine, and you would know what it'd be like to have your ass kicked." takes off his jacket. He goes, don't wait. Let's bring it on right now. This is on Sunset Boulevard. Pull the car over. You don't have to wait. Come on. He was ready to go at 68 years old. Hmm. That's so when people go, where do you get the ferocity to play Rambo? Kinetic.

12:08I mean, I. Your dad was not only abusive, but he was competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean, he often tried to one up you, sort of humiliate you. You talk about what you've just discussed, you know, him beating you up in front of church. But also, you know, you became a very good polo player and at a polo match in front of everyone, he dragged you off. the horse and beat you up in front of everyone. Why do you think he was that way with you? I don't know. You never asked him? I don't know. You know, you keep on what his father was like. His father was a very stoic barber with a mustache. You know, they say like a... fly sitting on a pun of cow shit, thinks himself a king. So he was like, yeah, so I'm the king of the street. And so he had this sort of imperiousness. And I think he was cold as hell. So my father was very, very cold and tough. For example, there was a cat just making noise outside the house. He went inside and went out, got the cat,

13:24you. shot it. It left it in the wash tub. Now, I think he did that To impress me like, holy, you'll never be as tough as your old man. And I won't. There is no chance. That's a whole other leak. It's funny, though. You keep on using the word tough. Yeah. And I don't hear tough. I hear messed up. You know, you're right. Because I'm using tough as a masculine banner for something much more perverse and weird. And dark. Dark. Oh, yeah, yeah. With all that drama and all that violence, was there any love between you two? Did you feel any love? Only on his deathbed. That's about it. I never, you know, it's so weird. My mother never, and my brother will attest, hugged me, ever, ever. There was never like, oh, hold you to the breast kind of thing. Kissing, forget it.

14:21Like nothing. It was always an air thing. And my father wasn't, well, he wasn't any better at all, but I'll never forget. We were, I was maybe nine years old and I He would always have me, like, take care of his horses, feed his horses, but never ride his horses. And so we were coming back from the barn. He's driving, and... I kind of fell asleep. So he put my head on his knee and his hand on my head. I never got over that. That was the epitome of... I went, wow, that's what it feels like. Oh. You know what I mean? I do. It's like, wow. Wow. Like, you know, just a simple stroking of your child's hair. But that was it. It was one and done. So much so that you remember it.

The psych ward at Devereaux

15:15You know, you went to many different schools during this period. I did. Thank you. One of the ones that you talk about is for kids that need a discipline. You got sent to sort of reform school, it sounds like. Devereaux. Yeah. And... Bye. You talk about being put in a psych ward, right? And I have to tell you that This was... one of the most chilling things that I have read. Can you tell me that story and why you included it? You know, as an adult, I saw one floor of the cuckoo's nest, and it looked like a bunch of, like... They were kind of eccentric old guys. You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. No. At this school, there were five different... departments for different ages. And in my age, it'd be like the teenagers. If you ever snuck out to see a girl or do something like that, you'd be reprimanded by taking to taking to a place called Park Lodge or the snake pit.

16:30which on the outside looked like a Tudor-type big old Tudor home from the 20s. And then you walked inside and you now entered the house. The heart of insanity, the smell, the filth, people running around naked and clawing, hands tied, drooling. And this is what they thought would impress you never to break the rules again. And then they marched me and I mean, they're clawing. And this is called the lifers, where these people, there's no going home ever. Everyone had straps that be tied down at night. The windows were covered with bars or grills. And they took me. to a cell and it was a padded cell and I'll never forget it was that high. So you could never get off your knees. And inside, I'd look up right here and...

17:34you'd have these elements like dust constantly falling down, and you see the real, it's been clawed at and clawed at. by the predecessors of this particular dungeon in Clawde. And they left you how long? I was there for a couple of weeks. It was wild. This, to me, is a good thing. was one of the better things that happened too. I said, I know they're going to try to break me. I was attacked there. They always tried to rip my groin off. It was bad. What do you mean tried to break your groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah, they were a guy named Jay Bird. He was a, actually, he was the son of an actor named Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there. He was big, had no hair, always naked, just rotten teeth. Because, you know, I never brushed teeth. And he made sounds.

18:30It is a jaybird. And I go into the bathroom on the way to food mess hall, which is really just a bunch of troughs. And. And I'm there and he comes in, this fucking smelly bear comes around me and he's like ripping my throat and he's going into my pants and he's grabbing my groin. And I luckily, you know, got around to do this stuff in the face. And then the two guards come in and beating the crap out of him with razor straps. And I go, so I go, what the hell is wrong with him? You're in a crazier house, boy. Nothing's wrong with him. He's crazy. That kind of thing. And I went, wow. So let me just get to the point. I won't be labored anymore. I felt when I came out of there and I was standing before the school president, I mean, the principal, because you learned your lesson. I learned a lot more than that lesson, much better lesson. You can't break me.

Struggling actor in New York City

19:35Thank you. You can't break me. So when I got to the city and everything that came after that, I always felt I was perfect. unbreakable in that in that way my heart could be broken all that kind of stuff like every human being but i'm talking about will Hm. you end up showing up here in New York City in your 20s. Yeah. And... You have dropped out of college at this point. You have backpacked around Europe. And you have no money. Right. And you have a dream, though, that you want to become an actor. And you take a job as an usher at a movie theater. Yeah. And I have to say this was so interesting because – What comes through is what an obsessive you became. You start writing down dialogue from your favorite films. What were you trying to do there? What was going on? I was really trying to learn. I should...

20:31You know, I'm non-existent. I put on this monkey suit, and people don't even see you. But you're in really a temple of wisdom in cinema. You can see what the audience reacts to, where they laugh, they don't, who gets up, why do they get up. You listen to them talk about the film, and every day was different. And then I started to record it, write it down. And I lived literally in a film with like a cell. It was a very tiny, like maybe eight-by-nine-foot room. On my bed, that's all we had. And I'd have these old record albums of Traffic and Blood, Sweat, and Tears, and that was my desk. And I would just translate notes and notes and notes. And sometimes I'd go, ooh. What if this is it, son? You're sitting in the middle of a bed like a fool doing something that sounds so stupid to anyone else.

21:24What are you, just postponing the inevitable?

21:31Then that fear would come. It's like the thing in the psych ward. I'm not going to be. No, don't go there. Take the fear. Swallow it and move on. Yeah, I mean, you... You had an apartment where there were blacked out windows, where you would write scripts for days on end. I mean, it's just this absolutely kind of manic intensity. And in this period, you were also getting into altercations, you were living rough, but you were also spending your days not only writing, but going to MoMA. All the time. You had this deep appreciation for art. How did you understand these two sides of yourself? I don't know. It just seems like if you're open, really open, two different experiences. I just go on by this place and I look in there and for some reason I go, wow, the energy of the art. And you're looking at Le Gé and all these incredible drawings and Monades and Starry Knights. I'm going, what makes them so special? I could do that. Then I go, no, you can't.

22:36Look at it closer. Look at it closer. And it just started to invigorate me. And then I developed this unbelievable thirst for art, which is to this very day. And I started to paint. And I went there so many times, I didn't pay anymore. I just knew everybody, like, come on in, you know, get out of the cold. It's almost as if you're going to the church of the brain. You know, you're the most wisdom in the world. It's right here. And if you were walking around like a fog, what am I going to do with my life? Go in there. You might find something that will give you a little spark and interest that gets you going in that direction because you're going in that direction. You wrote in the book, at my core, there is this simmering cauldron of emotion that can overflow with volatility, but it can also be directed towards deep artistic relationships.

23:28purpose. And I was thinking about that, those two sides of you, the I'm going to... Thank you. hit you if you hit me, but I'm also going to go to MoMA and I'm also going to sit there and pray at the Cathedral of Cinema. I mean, do you think you ever learned how to control that cauldron? It's very, very explosive. I mean, I'll tell you the truth. Sometimes in certain moments, like in cinema, even as an adult, I'm going, like, at the end of First Blood is a big nervous breakdown. And it wasn't written that way. You know, I hadn't written it that way, but it came out. I said, this is coming from that moment. cauldron. And it's a self indignation of being run down, dismissed. That's the way I felt. The worst thing you can say to me,

24:20The worst, you call me ugly, call me this, call me short, don't call me stupid. Because that is what my father used to say. And literally, it would turn me into a maniac to prove I'm not stupid. And I would just work and work and work. For example, this morning, I'm 80 years old. I'm up at five in the morning studying my dialogue. that I don't have to do for a month. That kind of thing. You know, it's funny that you mention that scene in Rambo, which is just an iconic scene. I was just watching it again yesterday. Yeah. And nobody went out. I want to go home, Johnny. I want to drive my Chevy. I can't find your fucking legs. You are just filled with rage and grief. Yeah. And it just translates viscerally onto the screen.

25:22It wasn't written that way, though. You just... Were tapping into that cauldron? Yeah. I started... It was... The way it was written is I'm supposed to commit suicide in a very cool manner. I said, no, wait a minute. There's thousands and thousands of men. missing parts of their bodies that literally actually thought they were doing something worthwhile. They were following the rules and orders of their country. Then when they come back, they're looked at as aberrations, Frankenstein's monsters. Then I started to identify that's what I felt like growing up kind of a thing. And this kind of rage that they must feel that It's not their parents. It's their country that is scoring them. They're real parents. The ones they literally lost blood and friends and died for and were mutilated. You can't say it.

Rocky and refusing to sell the script

26:17Nice try. Thank you. Nothing. So this kind of and I really identified with this dismissive attitude that I grew up with. All the time. And boy, when I look at that footage, I look distorted. I mean, it was the eyes. I mean, I was... gone for a few seconds. And you're lucky enough, sometimes in acting or painting or writing or anything, where you just So subliminally lose yourself. You do not know where you are. You know, people say, oh, maybe it happens in sex for two seconds where you're literally blanked out. What was that? You know, kind of a thing. Well, when you have that moment in acting where Is it over? Was it one take? One take. Wow.

27:14Just to just to come back to this period that you were in your apartment with the blacked out windows and you're trying to make it as an actor. You get a lot of rejections because of the way you look and you write Rocky for yourself. And the studios are very excited for the script. And it's well known the story that the studio ended up trying to pay you more and more money not to be in the film. They wanted James Caan. They wanted Ryan O'Neill.

27:44had this sense that This was like your last chance? This was it. I was done. I had less than $100, $106 in the bank, and there was something, and I don't know if it's spiritual, but I said, God, man, I know in my heart that God. I will regret this for the rest of my life, and I will be more of a broken man than if I had never done this in the first place. And I don't know why I knew, because I had no success. You know, I was green, really green. And they had every right not to want to use me. If someone came in to me and did the same thing and looked like me and slurred and all that, I'd go, come on, man. You're not acceptable to a lot of different people in this country. But I don't know why. I just knew that this is the crossroad. This is the bridge.

28:48Don't cross it, man. Then jump off it. Because I'm not going to have someone else do it. Because I know I hate myself. I kill myself. Emotionally, that is. No, I get it. I get it. Can I ask you just about this thing that happened during Rocky? This is your big break. Yeah. You have... sacrificed everything for it. They give you the part. Yeah. You're a nobody... This is... Everything's riding on the movie. And you cast your dad as the timekeeper who rings the bell in the climactic boxing match. This is what the whole movie is going towards. And you bring in someone with whom you've had this incredibly difficult relationship. And it's turned into a mess. I mean... All right. Why did you let him back in? I was just like, I just want you to love me for a little bit. A little bit. Like, look what I did. Share it with me. I know you thought I was a fool my whole life, but here we are.

Casting his father and inviting his mother

29:53This is not a joke. And he didn't ring the bell properly and I kept fighting and fighting and fighting. You know, when everything's choreographed, it's a one, two, three, four bell bell. Not six, seven, eight, nine, ten. So Carl Weathers is like, what's going on? Like you're throwing punches and you're trying to ad lib and then it looks really fake. You know what I mean? I could ring the bell, you know, whoever yelled at me and it became like, I said, oh, God, a really bad Italian trauma. And of course it ended up in an altercation by the end of the round, you know, it was, you got really nasty. But for a moment, I thought, Jesus, he'd be proud. And later you end up inviting your mom to the Oscars. Yeah.

30:40For Rocky. So then you call her up and you say, hey, I... This film... I'm... Might win an Oscar for it. Who's in it? I can't admit it. And she blows you off. Yeah. Can I ask you about your mom specifically because As we've discussed here, she was difficult. This is putting it lightly. You're quite scathing about her in the book. And then in the 1990s, she becomes like a celebrity psychic. I'm Jackie Stallone, psychic astrologer to the stars. I have predicted fame and fortune for movie stars and celebrities all over the world. And I just wondered... To jump a little later into your life and your relationship with your parents, how did you manage the dynamics when – you know, she... sees proximity to your fame as a financial opportunity. I mean, that must have been a hard dynamic to manage. It was very hard because she had been married three more times and then

31:45I saw her... Thank you. posing as a psychic with a turban and rhinestones and this over-inflated sense of like buffoonery. Or she would go on Howard Stern and mock my father and call him terrible things. And then they'd get on the phone. And I had my father and mother fighting on Howard Stern. I'm going... What other guy has to go through this? Yeah, this is 1992. They had this horrible on-air argument. But you two produced a movie star. Let's say you guys did produce a movie star. No help from him. Any guy could have done the job in three seconds. He didn't even want the best. He tried to get me to have an abortion. Really? It's unbelievable. Why would you go on and humiliate yourself? You're humiliating me. My children. Stop. I'll pay you anything to do whatever you want. The finest restaurants. Anything.

32:39Try to be proud. He goes, why aren't you proud of me? I went, there it is. I'll never forget. I asked, I said, have you ever done anything? Well... I mean, do you have any regrets? Yes. No! Why? I went, wow. I live on regrets. I can make a castle out of regrets. I mean, when people say I have no regrets, I go, bullshit. Come on. Really? You're that perfect? Everything was just... Right. And that's just the way it was to the day she died. And the last effort at the Oscars, I thought, wow. Ten months earlier, I was basically homeless. Now we're with incredible competition, and you don't want to go. See, here it is. I'll put it in a nutshell. He never wanted to be alone with me, ever. Ever. And she didn't go. And she stuck to her guns. And it really hurt me hard. I see. I won't go there anymore.

33:40You know, that kind of, but it does affect you. My wife, I know it's hard to get over it. It's very nagging. It's a nagging scar that won't fully close. And every now and then it weeps. But again, that's your cross to bear. Maybe that's why you had this certain sort of selective rage. Did you go to therapy later in your life? No. I said, it's not going to help. It's just not going to help because... It doesn't go away. You cover all this subterfuge and ideology and intellectual this and that and breathing and meditation until... That moment, late at night. And you're right back. And now you're in an anxiety. You ever have anxiety? Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has, it's coming from something that's so deep-rooted. Tell me about when you first suffered anxiety. It was the first time I did is when I was 36. And I was watching dailies.

Anxiety and panic attacks

34:54All of a sudden, I stood up and the hair on my neck went up. I started getting hot. I go, I'm dying. This is it. I'm on my way out. Heart banged down. I went. took a knee, crawled, rolled over, and then Not only is dark like movie theater. I'm like, where the fuck is this coming from? And then it happened again and again and again. They went away for five years. And then it always seems to happen as you're ready to go on the Today Show. Boom, eight seconds. And you feel it coming on. Anybody got Xanax? It's too late. So you're just sitting there holding your chair going, I feel for it. I mean, it's not a joke. No. You know, anxiety. It's like, no. I think people would find it very heartening that you...

35:50have experienced that. Oh, my God. Especially as I got older and It was weird. When I'm in a crowd, I'd be with my wife at an ARC expedition, and the room is filling up. It's getting more and more and more. And then I go, I'm going, I'm going down. I figured, let's get out of here. And literally, I'd just make it to the alley. Boom, get down on one knee. Did it again, and I was at the mayor's office of Philadelphia receiving some award, and everyone sort of crowded me in the corner. I said, I have to go. Thank you very much. And I just made it out of there. And I go, hmm, what is that indicative of? It never bothered you before. So there's something still happening. bubbling inside, festering.

Fatherhood and Sage's death

36:40It's a marvel, for example, that we still have magma and lava four billion years later in the center of the earth. How long does it take to cool an egg? I mean, my God. So the same thing, our emotions are always on the verge of eruption. Despite having such a I don't even know the word anymore. Upsetting. upbringing. You've become a father of five. What did you learn about being a good parent, considering you didn't really at all have role models for that? I really wasn't a very good parent. My wife, Jennifer, is the greatest woman ever before. I mean, seriously, she's just like my guardian angel. I would have been dead like three times for real. And she just is the most giving. I don't have that gear of just abandonment of your own personal self for someone else.

37:42It's really unbelievable. And she raised my daughters that way. In my first marriage, it wasn't like that. And... I was in my warrior mode. I was like, oh, let's conquer the world. You know, this is your moment. And everything fell by the wayside. And it was just... Measly manner of existence. It really was. It was... The reality was the movie set. The surreal world was my life. I have no control out here. I'm at everyone's beck and call. I don't like it. I couldn't wait to work again. Terrible to say that, but it's true. Hmm. Um... Thank you. You suffered an unimaginable loss in 2012 when your eldest son, Sage, died. He had an undiagnosed heart condition that killed him when he was only 36 years.

38:42And I just want to say I'm so sorry. Thank you. Thank you. I imagine that must have profoundly changed you. Oh. You know... The thing is, you know, you have so many... episodes of guilt. Like, what could I have done? Should I have been there if I did that? If I went right, right, left? I had no idea that... I mean, it was stunning. Like, I'll never forget. Yeah. It was so cold. My... mother's new husband. I never met. He was a doctor. I get a phone call. Friday the 13th. You guys. Sly, Stephen, he's gone. Who's gone? He goes, Sage, she's gone. They can't wear it. It's a date. It can't. I'm sorry. Click. This is possible. That's how you found it. That's how, yeah, that's how. He's gone. He's gone.

39:47Dead, sorry. And It wasn't You know, because of the funeral, because of all that, again, dealing with the mother, present, and it just takes you into a whole other world. And I'll never forget. I go, wow, I'm holding it together. When is it going to happen? You know, when... And then... About a week later, I was all alone in my room. And a whale came out of me. I've never heard before since. It was just... Such... key. and grief and guilt. And it was just a, it was not human. Thank you. It really wasn't. But all I can say is that he was a very kind kid. He had a great mother, a nice, you know, we would have done wonderful things in the future. I just had no idea that he had... Something that you would expect a very advanced adult to have.

Fame and its effects

41:03But no, you don't get over that. Mm-mm. I'm sorry. . Thank you. Thank you. Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky.

41:25It got... Ten Oscar nominations. It ended up winning Best Picture. Um... And It's not just the film, but you end up capturing the public's imagination because it was this fairytale story. And I'm very interested in... in you looking back at this transition from becoming a struggling actor to suddenly becoming the hottest star in Hollywood. Because in... the book, there is this picture of you, which is very poignant. And the caption reads, my last day of being anonymous. And I thought, what an interesting thing to put in a book that you can delineate that moment. you know, where You could walk the streets and And no one would know Sylvester Stallone. And then after, that was never going to be the case again. No. It was a tsunami.

42:31The movie started at 12 noon, and... at two People started coming, they saw me, and it was a deluge of being completely obscure for 30 years about. Just walking through being a non-entity to now being this celebrity and someone who has tapped into their hearts in more than just a movie. Like, hey, there was a great action film. It was like... That's my story. That's this, that's that. And I went, oh, my God. And I could hear the applause. Who the... Paul, is that a movie theater? It was like a... an event. And I'm looking at my brother. He goes, oh, you're in for it now, pal. And that's... It really was just... overnight. It was just overnight. I don't know if... It's never happened again, obviously. It's the rarest combination of obscurity to fame in a matter of two hours that's documented. Whoa. Did you look at fame as something...

43:41in the same way as the psych ward. And let me try to explain what I mean, which is this isn't going to change me or did you look at it as... This is everything I'd ever wanted. Hmm. Well, I don't know if it changed me, but it allowed me. Because fame breaks some people. Well, it didn't break me. What it did is it made me combative. It made me very... I told you so. Revengeful, spiteful.

44:19All the rejection, everything else, it was, oh, my God, it was so insufferable. I really was. Even with the New York Times, oh, Madame Bovary, anyone can write that. It was just, I don't know. I mean, Lily was, I became a petulant child. They really did. Years later, I mean, I despise myself. I'm surprised I'm still here. You know, I managed to alienate the entire press. I really did. And people that believed in me and so on, I just was not, I was just not humble. There was no humility whatsoever. Again, it's just childhood eruptions coming to the surface at the most inopportune times. Yeah. I want to talk about some of the people you worked with and came across in the 80s. And of course, we're going to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger, who you're now friends with, we should say.

45:20But he was a huge action star back then. And you said you couldn't stand to be in the same room. No. I mean, why did you hate him so much? What was it though? What was it though? Like, take me back before the friendship was a challenge. He was he I thought I had something going on and then I could see this guy, this immovable force, a very confident human being, I think even more so than me, and more psychological in the way he would manipulate and do things very cunningly, and not in a negative way, but just shrewdly. I was blunt force. He would Machiavellian, cool. And I went, God damn it. And he's winning these awards and he's a bodybuilder and I'm like, I consider myself somewhat more of a, you know. A thespian. A thespian. A dramaturge. You know, that kind of thing. A peripatetic dramaturge just wandering their country acting. And

Rivalry with Arnold Schwarzenegger

46:14I went, wow. This is my guy. This is the guy I know I'm going to have trouble with. Period. And sure enough, we did. We were just going at each other, which turned out to be fantastic. And, you know, I've had some moments with him, and I'm regretful for some of the things I've said about him, but... He antagonized me in a creative way and I did to him. I was a thorn in his side, he was a thorn in my side, but it just forced us to keep moving higher, bigger guns, louder moves, more action, more bodies, everything, until I think we really carved out a niche that'll never quite come around again, that certain 80s, over-the-top action genre that he and I sort of pioneered. You did. Yeah. It's like a creative marriage in a way. It is. I mean, so it's like Ali and Fraser. You need that thing that brings you to the surface that more than any other person, it's not even hatred. This guy, I dream about him. It's like I'm on his mind. He's on my mind. It's very rare. You know what I mean? Men get it. I'm sure women get it too.

47:35alpha men who I can only relate to. It's like you can't wait. to go against him, that kind of thing. And then he does better than you. And then he just gloats on it. Oh, I see that Stallone's film didn't perform very well. Oh, oh, oh. And then vice versa. And then eventually we end up working together in Expendables. And I go on the campaign trail for him. Unbelievable. When was the moment that you two, that you thought, we put this to rest? I mean, did it just come with age and him moving into politics and just sort of? Yeah, yeah, yeah. come on, actors in politics, this is oil and water. Because we tend to, actors really very, very self-absorbed, and politicians, if they're really good, should be just the opposite, publicly absorbed. So I saw there's a conflict there. But he was definitely sincere about it, and I don't know why, but he asked me,

48:38We're at a cigar place. Would you like to... We had an event. I went, yeah? I said, why did I say that? And then sure enough, then we hit it off. And he's a very, very unique, I mean, he's one of a kind, forget it. It's just, I'm sorry. So until that moment, you really hadn't spent time with him. You didn't know you even liked him. I'm telling you, we always came to blows. When we were at Planet Hollywood, we couldn't stand to be in the same arena. Right, because in the early 90s, you founded, with Bruce Willis as well, Planet Hollywood. And you couldn't even, you were in business together, but you couldn't stand being in the same room. Oh, my God. I'll never forget. There's a picture of he and I dancing. And it was, I think, was it Total Recall or something? And it was at the Hotel Du Cap in the afternoon. It's festive.

49:31And everyone is there. I want to take a picture. Okay, slide. Take a picture. Okay. Take a picture together. He goes, director, why don't you come in here and get in the middle? I went, oh, man. And then I grab him. You know, like we're waltzing. And he goes, To me, it's the greatest picture because I said, let's put this, let's stop. You know what I mean? Let's just do this dance because that's what it is, you know? There's never going to be. You could do a movie about this, for real. You really could. You really could. All right. We don't have much time. That's why I'm going like that. And I'm upset because I have so much to ask you. So I'm going to skip asking you about working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition Man and Sharon Stone and the specialist. So we're going to move on. Bye, ladies. Yeah. Bye, ladies. Indeed. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah.

Body image, bulimia, and steroids

50:29What I do want to ask you is about your body. Body? Body, yes. Your physique. Now you're getting personal. Because at several points in your career, you were exceptionally muscular. Mm-hmm. which wasn't your build before Rocky. And I was really curious how your relationship with your body has changed over time. How, you know, you saw yourself and then... how when you, turned into this big action star with the big muscles and everyone was sort of venerating that. How did you see yourself? How did your relationship with that change over time? It became very intimate, you might say. It was my armor. I looked at like Rocky, Rocky, very smooth, very normal looking guy. And then I said, if we move on, you have to...

51:19I think the character would start to become a bit more vain. And then if Rambo, you're playing a warrior, you'd be a little bit more animalistic. You wouldn't be so smooth. So I started to think, design your body like... a jaguar, a cat. Not big like Arnold, but more feral and aggressive and very limber and move and athletic. And then it became an obsession. really bad. It became to the point where I became bulimic. You didn't know that. Okay. You heard it here first. Yeah, because it was like, you know, you would eat. I got down to 2.6 potty fat when I was doing Rocky III in the opening scene. Literally like, go for it. You know, like hollow. And I couldn't hold anything down. Or if I did, I didn't want to keep it down because I wanted to, I became so obsessed at eating.

52:16staying at that point of fitness. And then finally, you know, I just broke the cycle. But it got to me, literally an obsessive body worship kind of a thing. And then, you know, nobody does it without, you know, additives and drugs, period. I don't care who they say. Bullshit. It has to. But then again, it isn't as though you're a junkie.

52:46and you're eating yogurt and pudding and it's not happening. You know, you're just not. So you're taking steroids, you're saying? Oh, my God. You have to. But you do it in a sense, in a way, six weeks off. And people go, you don't get that way naturally. No, you don't. You don't, unless you're just a freak of nature. So everyone who says it, I can see them a mile away, you know, what is obvious. But that also took a terrible toll. Terrible toll and emotionally, too, because. Oh, yeah. No, no. Your moods and everything. It wasn't until I did cop land where I had to, like, divest myself of that and played the weakest guy in the room and partially deaf, overweight, everything that I really felt somewhat liberated. Then things went sideways and I.

53:36I don't know, I just fell out of grace with Hollywood. But, yeah, the body has played a... I've abused it. I've had nine back operation, two shoulder operation, three neck fusions, you know, everything is held together with bailing wire. But I still have that want to stay in good shape. Do you still see it as your armor? No, that because you're still fit. You're sort of fit. But, you know, I've got all kinds of, you know. Take a lot of pills to keep going, you know, that kind of thing. It's coming at a terrible price. If I could do it over again, I would say let someone else carry the banner. Don't do your own stunts. You know, I don't know what it was about just hurting myself. All the time. I mean...

54:28All the time. Is it masochistic? Yeah, very masochistic. It's not like I'm self-flagellating, but if someone's going to dive onto the canvas and Rocky, they take a hit full force and go backwards and land hood because there's no padding. You're like landing on a board with a little thin canvas. It just jars you and jars you, but you go, I can do better. I can do better.

54:58No, you're not going to break me. But it does break. You do get broken a little bit physically, not mentally. We're going to talk again. But I want to end with something that you said about regret. Yeah. And... that you don't get to be your age at your career without a mountain of them. And we've kind of touched on that a little. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible. It really is. Because, you know, it's the fog of war, the war of trying to succeed. You can blame it on that or just self-pedi, self-absorption. And you go, wow. And it It's painful. But yesterday is dead. The future is unknown. All we got is today. You keep going back to that philosophy and you don't forgive yourself. No, you forgive yourself for being a bastard. No, you just regret.

Regrets and forgiveness

56:00I wish I hadn't done that. Wish I hadn't done that. So I'm not going to do that anymore. But God. Because what you did, you hurt yourself. You really did. Yeah, you denied people your love and this and that. But you also did worse to yourself. Have you forgiven your parents? Hmm. Okay. I've accepted it. Thank you. that they are. who they are, you know, to forgive. I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean, it's definitely a delicate peace treaty. But, yeah, I have to. What are we, they walk around yelling at ghosts? Come back here. You know, we're not finished. Oh, we can't. That's about the regrets, you know. So all I can do is cherish every second because, let's face it, you know, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. There it is. And I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing Tulsa King. And, I mean, it's a gift. And David Glasser, you know, like.

57:14Giving me this new breath of life and a whole new character. Imagine playing like, oh yeah, we're doing Rambo at 80. Oh my God, who's he fighting? He's fighting Mr. Arthritis. You're kind of out of opponents. You're fighting, oh yeah, brain disease. Okay.

57:36We'll end here for now. Sylvester Stallone, thank you so much. Ciao. On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So the next day I spoke with Sylvester Stallone again, and he told me about his evolution from being an avatar for war in the Rambo movies into becoming personally anti-war. Hi. Hi. Back for more. What is wrong with you? I'll give you my word though. You have the most in-depth interview I'm ever doing. So... Take that to the bank. Well, actually, I wanted to thank you so much for your candor yesterday. You have always... been this person who has exuded invincibility. That's been your persona in your life, and that's been your persona in many of your roles. And so... It's kind of astonishing to see you be so vulnerable.

Part two: comebacks and Rocky Balboa

58:38Even though I put on this facade of having armor, like when you see Rocky and I'm writing for Adrian, I really have a lot of empathy for him. people that just didn't get a break in life. And I've always thought, boy, there's so many stories in these people, but they're never going to get out. So that's why I think Rocky was such a success, because everyone has that character that very few people get recognition for. You know, they just, you know, they live in quiet suffering. They're never going to get any recognition. They're never... You know, right. I'm just here filling space. I'm just another seat on the bus. Hmm. You know, you've been in so many iconic films, franchises, Rocky, Rambo, The Expendables, now Taylor Sheridan's Tulsa King. You were nominated for another Oscar for Creed in 2016. What's your most underappreciated performance, do you think that you're most proud of?

59:45Copland, for sure. because I had been basically reduced to a lump of meat. Like, you're not that smart. You're an action guy. And I have always looked at action when it's done well as moderating mythology we don't have scribes running around and carving on stone tablets about the Hercules and so on and so forth. So I decided to delve in that by accident because first blood I never imagined would transition me into more physical life because I'm not I wasn't born this physical specimen at all. And I. It just... It just became so frustrating that things are slowing down. I was 50 years old. It was 1996. I thought I would like to go into the arena of the guys, the top athletes, the top actors, and see how we bounce off of one another. And it became that kind of challenge. There was definitely a dichotomy between the serious actor and that guy, meaning me.

1:00:53And I really welcomed it. I really did. I did the whole thing for free because the experiment was well worth it. You know, in our first conversation, you also talked about how no one would return your calls in Hollywood for a period of years in the late 1990s when things were pretty rough for you there. And this was a period when you had movies that didn't do well. Judge Dredd, Daylight, Get Carter Driven, Detox, Avenging Angelo.

1:01:23just as you were filming Cliffhanger. The article quotes one prominent Hollywood agent, and I'm going to quote here, who said, I think he's a diminishing asset. With every film he does, he goes down a little further. He's the new Burt Reynolds. And Cliffhanger then went on to do really well. Yeah. And it seems like there were these number of moments in your life when Hollywood was trying to write you off and you kept having these comebacks. I mean, how did you deal with it? This thing of having to keep proving yourself to this industry.

1:01:59Actually, I took it as somewhat invigorating because now I had a purpose. It's one thing to sit there and be, I guess, slowly, you know, you're... images diminishing right before you, you're evaporating. But for some reason, I just said, this is a call to arms. And what am I going to go back to? I'm going to write another Rocky at 60 years old. And it was just the most ridiculous, like 60-year-old boxer, like a 120-year-old can-can dancer. It just doesn't work, you know. It doesn't work. But I was able to get out the portion of what people go through as they're going into their later years, which is grief, the sense of loss. It had nothing to do with boxing anymore. Thank you. I just felt like, God, this is the perfect opportunity now. And, of course, it was rejected everywhere. I mean, I had studio heads actually say,

1:03:02Rocky's done, and so are you, Sly. You're done. Just go off fishing. Okay, I get it. And I go through rewrites after rewrites. But I've always had this sense that you have to go down swinging. How do you explain this period of not so great films? I mean, did you know the films were bad at the time? Was it a quality control issue? Yeah, it really was.

1:03:32the components. So even though each project had a great ability to be successful, I don't think I really focused on the fine strokes, which is what art is made about. In other words, the right director, the right this, the right co-star, the right advertising, the right theme song. These are things that I used to really apply myself to. And I suppose I just got lazy

1:04:02I mean, what it does to the soul of an artistic person to make movies that aren't good. Oh, boy. It's... Thank you. It's a death in the family. Because it's not as though you didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today. It's all over the world. And there is a part of human nature that... revels in that. You know what I mean? And I don't and again, I don't take it personally. I think that quite often human nature says, OK, he's had enough time. Let's bring on the new generation. OK, move over. Stop hogging the screen. So I get it. So it's when you reach a certain age in this business, it becomes a very, very, very competitive, delicate and tenuous business. career. It doesn't take much to, well, boom. So that's why I think it's a very neurotic business at times because the product is you. It isn't like, oh, you rejected my leather jacket. No, we don't like it.

1:05:10You. But I realized, I go, you know, here you go again. You have to do it for yourself. You have to go out there and find the firewood and start the fire. No one is going to knock on the door and go, here, here's an Oscar winning script. Love you. No, it really did. It helped me because, you know, when you finally hit bottom, you have two choices. You know, you can't go any lower and you just eventually stop breathing. And I've always said the artist dies twice. You know, the second death is the easiest one compared to the career death in which is, you know, you're being dismissed. But it just woke me up, and I was so invigorated starting to write. The hardest and the proudest moment by far in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody wanted it. I was done. When I say done, I mean agent fire me, managers fire. I was done. I go, okay, this sounds very familiar. Let's start over again. Let's see if you can do it in 60s. So it was a fantastic voyage into the unknown.

1:06:26This sounds very familiar when you were 29 years old. Same thing. This is it. Listening to you talk about this, can you... articulate your relationship then to the character Rocky Balboa because that character has... saved your career launched your career. Um, you are defined by it in many ways, America is defined by it. Rocky is kind of like my imaginary... male role model. It's my father. It's what I wish, you know, I could be so I when I created him, I put every component in there, this self-effacement, this kind of humbleness, the ability to also take loss, how he's very philosophical about life is, is very difficult.

1:07:28because it just pours out of me. Really, it does. I mean, writing other things, especially if you're writing something like Rambo, which is very difficult because he's monosyllabic. His lack of expression. Rocky's is... Everything he's thinking comes out. You know, it's not about how hard you hit, it's about how hard you can get hit. Like all these things that most people would never talk about. So I found this to be like a therapeutic beyond practice. Anything I've ever, like you asked, you know, you go to therapy. That was my Sigmund Freud right there. I have another question about Rambo. You know, as we had discussed, the first movie was quite complicated. You know, this vet that was discarded by his country who had PTSD.

1:08:18And you told this incredible story about how the last scene comes about with the movie ending with him being arrested.

1:08:28over time, turns into this avatar, right? This classic action movie hero, perhaps with a little less depth than the original character had. You're absolutely right. That's my fault. It's my fault. This is where this kind of vainglorious pomposity that like, now, if you're like that, wait till you see this. And I didn't really focus on the depth of what he was still going through while trying to save POWs. He's trying to save his own soul. We never got into that. It's just like bravado, bravado, bravado, bulletproof. And that's all me. That's all me. I mean, I that that was a problem that this is when you you get really hung up on kind of like clandestine narcissism. It works its way in there. Then you realize how this is a lot easier.

1:09:26They show your soul. flexing your muscles, see what I mean? And it was terrible, you know, it was like a cartoon. It came to define also this projection of American power, you know, and I'm going to quote you to you in an interview in 1985. When you were talking about your view of war, your politics, you said, if you have the power like the United States, if you're going to talk tall and carry a big stick, eventually you've got to use it or they'll think you're bluffing. Yeah. Does Rambo represent a part of like your worldview at that point as well. It did. It did. And now I realize all war is futile. It's stupid. It's a mechanism to make tons of money for the War Department and manufacturers and these kids just going out there into a gristmill.

1:10:20Being chopped up and no. And then when they come back with no arms. Oh, sorry. You're on your own. I hate it. I hate it and I'm bitterly opposed to it. But at one time, I was truly gung ho. Really gung-ho. And I don't know if I was just trying to go against the current. In Hollywood, there's a certain dynamic, as you know. But again, I admit it was, I think it was just naivete, really, because I read a lot, especially after First Blood. And I go, wow, this is brutal. This is horrible. There's no glory in war. Lung. When did you become anti-war?

1:11:23Destroy both sides. I mean, it really creates this horrible history. And, you know, don't get over it. They just don't. Grudges are held and countries are destroyed and lines are redrawn. For what, though? I know you don't want to talk about politics, but I am interested in something you just said, which is this idea of Hollywood being liberal and you being seen as a political conservative. Did that put you at odds in what was perceived as a liberal industry or is that perception actually wrong? I mean, it is wrong because. I totally understand why the perception is like indelible. When Rocky came out, I was so naive. I'd never even voted. I was like pushing 30 years old. I had zero. I didn't even know the difference between Democrat and Republican. I functioned in another universe.

1:12:29When Rocky wrapped himself in a flag and that sort of thing, and every movie we were up against at that time in competition was very, very heavy, very political. I mean, just the extremely erudite intellectual and Rocky was not that it was emotional. And I think that's that right away put me over here. And then when I did first blood, I, Again, I had no idea that there was such a chasm between the left and the right and, you know, me, you know, being jingoistic. He's a saber rattler. It was, again, naivete on my part. But yes, it caused a major riff. And I wish it wasn't like that because... I really think a lot of these actors have great empathy, great heart, and they're really more for the working man kind of thing. They're just down in the trenches. And that's where I live, you know what I mean? But I'm not considered that. And sometimes, you know, you say things that you don't realize the long-range effects.

1:13:47So you're currently in Tulsa King, which is a Taylor Sheridan series. What's season? That's right. Um... At this point in your career, what keeps bringing you back to the screen? I mean, this is no longer that you have anything left to prove. This is now. It's not about proving. Well, not proving, but this. No, but I know exactly what you mean. Like, what do you have to prove? It's like a racehorse. You just keep going until it falls down. It doesn't know how to walk. It knows how to run. And it's like, it's almost like breathing. You know what I mean? It's like I talked to Albert, you know, De Niro, these guys. This is the you are that animal. You cease to exist without this format. And it's just it's what gives you life. You said something in our first interview that really caught my ear. You said, quote, that you can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

1:14:51which I took to mean sort of the end of, you know, your life. And I was wondering how you feel about death and how you feel... about that there is less time in front of you than there is behind you. Yeah. In panic mode. Really? Well, because that's what I said before, you know, I built a castle with thousands of stones made of regrets. And I'm trying to make up for it in my own petty way. And I don't know if there's enough time. And then I go, there is not enough time. What I have to do is just focus on the ones that really need me and the ones that I want to go on and have their own life and legacy and work. I'm at the point now, you know, at 78, you're kind of like, chow. It's where the insurance company goes, you know, that's the average. So I'm two years on borrowed time, and I'm making up for it as much as I can. You're never too old to be in love.

1:15:50Never too old to dance with the great memories that you've had and not wallow in the worst swamp of all, which is the swamp of loneliness. That is truly premature burial. Well, thank you for the gift of all those characters. And thank you for your time. Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Keep punching.

1:16:20That's Sylvester Stallone. And a note, we reached out to Devereaux for comment after this interview, and a spokesperson replied that while they've not read the book, they respect Mr. Stallone's quote, right to tell his story his own way, take his account seriously, and are sorry for any trauma he remembers experiencing.

1:16:50by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing by Sophia Landman. Original music by Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Priya Matthew, Wyatt Orme, Paola Newdorf, Joe Bill Munoz, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemmel, Gavi Contreras, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke Minters. Our executive producer is Alison Benedict. Next week, David interviews

1:17:20interview from the New York Times. you