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I live on regrets. I can make a castle.

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Out of regrets.

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I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and today
I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone.

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At 80 years old, the star of Rocky
is telling his own against all odds story

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in a new memoir, The Steps, an allusion
to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes.

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In the book, Stallone details an abusive
and tortured childhood and how that fueled

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his success in some of Hollywood's most
well-known franchises. It's over, Jenny.

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It's over. Nothing is over. Nothing.
What became clear in our conversation is

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that behind that tough guy
exterior he became famous for,

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there were deep struggles with his
emotions, his body and his family.

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It's a Sylvester Stallone you've
never seen before. I became bulimic.

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You didn't know that. OK, I didn't
hear first. But first, a quick message.

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If you're not a subscriber,
we have some news for you.

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your first month
in the New York Times app.

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Just download the app and we hope you
enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview.

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It has been

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50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure.
Since the movie that started it all,

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Rocky, came out. You're now 80 years old,
which I'm sure is also hard to believe.

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It is.

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You know, in reading this memoir,
one of the things that struck me is that,

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you know, some of these memories
are quite painful for you.

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And you wrote in the book... that

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At difficult moments in your life,
you told yourself to, quote,

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put those memories away in a box
and avoid them, just move forward.

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What was it like to go back and revisit
some of these things for this book?

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You know, it was a mixed emotion.
There used to be some, like, you know,

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tears. There'd be some laughter.
There'd be some anger, bitterness.

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And then I thought, you know, maybe...

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In one way... That was the motivation to
do something extraordinary as opposed to,

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you know, just being very languid and,
oh, I had a nice relationship growing up,

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but I have no...

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angst inside of me, that fuel.
So I've always been on that cusp like,

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You know, the guy punched you
in your mouth, but did he do you a favor?

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Because now you go to the gym
and you become a tough guy. You know,

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some those things. I truly believe
that the parents are the mold makers.

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They're sculptors. They don't realize it.

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But they're sculptors, they're Rodin's,
and they're sculpting their masterpiece

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or their disaster. Yeah. I want to start,
actually, at the very beginning because...

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You came into the world, in many ways,
how you have inhabited it. Well,

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you know, with a lot of turmoil,
a lot of drama, it was a rough entry.

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Can you tell me about the day you were
born? Well, it was my mother really,

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she also came from a lot of turmoil.
And she really wasn't mother material.

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And she had grandiose plans for her life.

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Her pregnancy with me
was a big-time interruption.

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I don't think she wanted
to really believe it was happening,

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even though it was in the ninth month and
she was finally on a bus and she goes into

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labor and she says, I want
to have it here. It was bad.

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And then we just happened to be near
a medical center, you might call it,

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like a charity award. It's like
there weren't even doctors there.

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We were just mainly interns
and one doctor. And that's my...

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That's my first breath on earth.
Yeah. I mean, here in New York City,

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it was a bus right here. And the people
who delivered you used forceps and they

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partially paralyzed your face,
right? Could have been worse.

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Because sometimes you get brain damage
from it. Maybe that happened too.

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I don't know.

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It was a terrible thing growing
up because I slurred and I mumbled.

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It was like 10 times worse
than Rocky. It was rough.

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Did you see yourself back then as having
a disability when you were young? Yeah,

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it was. You're not aware of it.
Even if you have a lisp or a stutter,

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you're so familiar with it.

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But other people, you know, what?
What? Jesus, say anything.

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What language is that? Oh, God.

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you know,

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In the book, you seem to suggest that both
your parents saw your arrival as having

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ruined their ambitions
in some way. You wrote,

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can you really make people proud who
never wanted you in the first place?

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And when you were very little, you were
sent to go live in a boarding house.

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I mean, you were very little. Yeah.
And your parents only visited you once

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a month. I've got to say, this is,
by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff.

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And... You know, it's very clear that when
you were young, you never got the love,

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you never got the support, that most...

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children need. I mean, how did
you understand that as a kid?

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How did it make you feel? I don't know if
there was some preventative thing or some

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blockage of being kind of completely
abandoned or forlorn or whatever.

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I just was raised by strangers
in a boarding house,

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and it became sort
of a natural environment.

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And my parents really were
never nurturing. So this

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Compared to where I was living. I think...

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If you are emotionally
deprived when you're younger,

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you learn to lock things away, which
is why I started with that quote about you

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locking things away.
Do you think it made you like...

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Tough? In the wrong way,
yeah. It made me very tough.

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And I literally haven't figured out real,
real, real, real true love until,

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you know, like 70.
It really was, you know,

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because you have different
incarnations of love.

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You think this is it or this or that.
But to really have unequivocally like true

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love that I love for my wife and my kids,
I mean, that total abandonment,

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that reckless love that you would
jump into a volcano for them.

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late and that's a big pity it really is
because I was so consumed with not being

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another bum from the neighborhood I
was very very competitive like a pit bull

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Like it's just, that's what
got me going. It's not healthy.

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And I would have conversation with my wife
and my brother or anyone at the time about

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why I was so competitive.
It really was, it was, but then again.

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Made you who you are. Yeah.
And you've had quite a life.

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Your parents had this very hostile and...

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violent marriage in many ways. And they
divorced when you were about 11 years old.

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Is that right? Yeah, 10,
10 and a half, 11. Yeah. I mean,

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what do you remember
about that separation?

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And how did they decide to split you
and your brother up? It was traumatic.

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I'm not sure about how my brother reacted.
But when she goes, I'm leaving,

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I won't be living here anymore. And I go,
where are you going? Because I'm just,

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I remember... holding onto her leg.

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And like being literally dragged
to the, yeah, it was like,

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you know what I mean?
Like, hey, mom, come back.

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And this point you guys were
all living together. Yeah,

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and she pulled the leg away,
out the door, and that was it.

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And my brother came home
a little bit after that,

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and there was nobody there. You know,
I guess my father took me to the shop

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or something, so he was abandoned,
and he never got over that.

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Ever.

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That scene, I'm so sorry, I just want
to linger on it, of just you holding...

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It was rough. I'm telling you, it was one
of those things where your legs buckle,

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you drop down, you grab around like a leg.

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Try to tackle her.

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What was going on? I don't know,
because she never was a loving person.

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I know I'm not alone in this,
that there's a connection.

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At birth, that some people have
that's so palpable that no matter what,

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you cannot break away from this ability
or need to have this person's attention.

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It's like electric and then being
deprived and put into the dark.

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It's a terrible syndrome.
It really is. It's 100% true.

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You can never get rid of the
connection to your parents.

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So is that blood thicker than water?
I used to say, no, it's just stickier.

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But it is thicker. I mean, there's
something there that is quite painful.

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It really is.

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You go to Maryland and you end up
living with your dad. He loved horses.

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He played polo. But what was it
like living alone with your dad?

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Because we've talked a little
bit about your mom, but that –

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didn't sound like a great time
either. It would be, I guess,

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these constant bombastic explosions,
and then total silence.

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Because if he were talking,
and then he said, you know,

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I don't know if I agree with that.
He starts spinning his fork,

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and suck his teeth, and you knew what was

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big hands you just learn to duck a little
bit but there are sometimes i'll never

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forget um you know i don't know this poor
slide but all right no i really i didn't

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put a lot of stuff in the book because
i didn't want a pity party but it was it

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was insane for example it's church

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Before we go to church, go to the store,
which is a block way by, some bread.

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Okay, I go down there. I see a couple
of my friends. Oh, I got to get back.

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And I bring home sandwich spread.

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Nut bread. Oh. And he kicked me in the
stomach and hit me and like laid me out,

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got in the car and went to church.

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I'm there in the street, Thai,
this kind of thing, with mayonnaise.

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It really is. It's unbelievable.

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It's unbelievable.

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Did you...

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Ever fight back?

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This is going to sound very, I guess,
Greek tragedy kind of thing. Like...

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When I was...

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say 43, 44. And he was 25 years
older than me. He goes, Hey, you know,

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you're doing this, you're doing that.
Is there anything left in your life

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that you'd like to do? I said,
I wish you and I could be the same age.

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Three minutes.

153
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And he goes, "Well," I said, "Because
I'd like to give you some of your own

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medicine, and you would know what
it'd be like to have your ass kicked."

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takes off his jacket. He goes,
don't wait. Let's bring it on right now.

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This is on Sunset Boulevard.
Pull the car over. You don't have to wait.

157
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Come on. He was ready
to go at 68 years old.

158
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Hmm. That's so when people go, where
do you get the ferocity to play Rambo?

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Kinetic.

160
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:09,740
I mean, I.

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Your dad was not only abusive, but he was
competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean,

162
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he often tried to one up you,
sort of humiliate you.

163
00:12:18,049 --> 00:12:21,159
You talk about what you've
just discussed, you know,

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him beating you up in front
of church. But also, you know,

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you became a very good polo player
and at a polo match in front of everyone,

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he dragged you off. the horse
and beat you up in front of everyone.

167
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Why do you think he was that way with you?
I don't know. You never asked him?

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I don't know. You know,
you keep on what his father was like.

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His father was a very stoic barber with
a mustache. You know, they say like a...

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fly sitting on a

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pun of cow shit, thinks himself
a king. So he was like, yeah,

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so I'm the king of the street.
And so he had this sort of imperiousness.

173
00:13:05,724 --> 00:13:12,266
And I think he was cold as hell. So
my father was very, very cold and tough.

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For example, there was a cat just
making noise outside the house.

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He went inside and went out, got the cat,

176
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you. shot it. It left it in the wash tub.
Now, I think he did that

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To impress me like, holy, you'll never
be as tough as your old man. And I won't.

178
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There is no chance. That's a whole
other leak. It's funny, though.

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You keep on using the word tough.
Yeah. And I don't hear tough.

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I hear messed up. You know, you're right.
Because I'm using tough as a masculine

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banner for something much more perverse
and weird. And dark. Dark. Oh, yeah,

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yeah. With all that drama
and all that violence,

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was there any love between you two?
Did you feel any love?

184
00:14:02,980 --> 00:14:08,780
Only on his deathbed. That's about it.
I never, you know, it's so weird.

185
00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:14,925
My mother never, and my brother
will attest, hugged me, ever, ever.

186
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There was never like, oh, hold you to the
breast kind of thing. Kissing, forget it.

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Like nothing. It was always an air
thing. And my father wasn't, well,

188
00:14:27,319 --> 00:14:32,669
he wasn't any better at all,
but I'll never forget. We were,

189
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I was maybe nine years old and I

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00:14:35,740 --> 00:14:40,382
He would always have me, like,
take care of his horses, feed his horses,

191
00:14:40,465 --> 00:14:44,844
but never ride his horses.
And so we were coming back from the barn.

192
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He's driving, and...

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I kind of fell asleep. So he put my head
on his knee and his hand on my head.

194
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I never got over that.
That was the epitome of...

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I went, wow, that's what it feels like.

196
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Oh. You know what I mean?
I do. It's like, wow. Wow.

197
00:15:04,210 --> 00:15:08,985
Like, you know, just a simple stroking
of your child's hair. But that was it.

198
00:15:09,068 --> 00:15:12,200
It was one and done.
So much so that you remember it.

199
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:21,580
You know, you went to many different
schools during this period. I did.

200
00:15:21,820 --> 00:15:22,653
Thank you.

201
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,567
One of the ones that you talk about
is for kids that need a discipline.

202
00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:34,550
You got sent to sort of reform school,
it sounds like. Devereaux. Yeah. And...

203
00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:36,303
Bye.

204
00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:43,310
You talk about being put
in a psych ward, right?

205
00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:47,500
And I have to tell you that This was...

206
00:15:48,190 --> 00:15:51,635
one of the most chilling
things that I have read.

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00:15:51,718 --> 00:15:55,390
Can you tell me that story
and why you included it?

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00:15:57,070 --> 00:16:00,917
You know, as an adult, I saw
one floor of the cuckoo's nest,

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00:16:01,001 --> 00:16:03,490
and it looked like a bunch of, like...

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00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:08,967
They were kind of eccentric old guys.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. No.

211
00:16:09,050 --> 00:16:12,310
At this school, there
were five different...

212
00:16:12,460 --> 00:16:18,497
departments for different ages.
And in my age, it'd be like the teenagers.

213
00:16:18,580 --> 00:16:23,624
If you ever snuck out to see
a girl or do something like that,

214
00:16:23,708 --> 00:16:30,406
you'd be reprimanded by taking to taking
to a place called Park Lodge or the snake

215
00:16:30,489 --> 00:16:35,979
pit. which on the outside looked like
a Tudor-type big old Tudor home from

216
00:16:36,062 --> 00:16:40,990
the 20s. And then you walked inside
and you now entered the house.

217
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:45,223
The heart of insanity,
the smell, the filth,

218
00:16:45,306 --> 00:16:50,798
people running around naked
and clawing, hands tied, drooling.

219
00:16:50,881 --> 00:16:57,272
And this is what they thought would
impress you never to break the rules

220
00:16:57,355 --> 00:17:02,750
again. And then they marched
me and I mean, they're clawing.

221
00:17:03,220 --> 00:17:07,172
And this is called the lifers,
where these people,

222
00:17:07,255 --> 00:17:13,225
there's no going home ever. Everyone
had straps that be tied down at night.

223
00:17:13,308 --> 00:17:16,907
The windows were covered
with bars or grills.

224
00:17:16,990 --> 00:17:19,130
And they took me.

225
00:17:19,390 --> 00:17:26,290
to a cell and it was a padded cell
and I'll never forget it was that high.

226
00:17:26,590 --> 00:17:33,590
So you could never get off your knees.
And inside, I'd look up right here and...

227
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,408
you'd have these elements like
dust constantly falling down,

228
00:17:38,492 --> 00:17:42,460
and you see the real,
it's been clawed at and clawed at.

229
00:17:43,030 --> 00:17:47,564
by the predecessors of this
particular dungeon in Clawde.

230
00:17:47,647 --> 00:17:52,607
And they left you how long?
I was there for a couple of weeks.

231
00:17:52,690 --> 00:17:54,530
It was wild.

232
00:17:55,660 --> 00:18:00,347
This, to me, is a good thing. was one
of the better things that happened too.

233
00:18:00,430 --> 00:18:04,796
I said, I know they're going to try
to break me. I was attacked there.

234
00:18:04,879 --> 00:18:07,973
They always tried to rip
my groin off. It was bad.

235
00:18:08,057 --> 00:18:12,677
What do you mean tried to break your
groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah,

236
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,918
they were a guy named Jay Bird.
He was a, actually,

237
00:18:16,001 --> 00:18:20,367
he was the son of an actor named
Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there.

238
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:25,197
He was big, had no hair, always naked,
just rotten teeth. Because, you know,

239
00:18:25,281 --> 00:18:27,950
I never brushed teeth. And he made sounds.

240
00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:36,991
It is a jaybird. And I go into
the bathroom on the way to food mess hall,

241
00:18:37,074 --> 00:18:41,170
which is really just
a bunch of troughs. And.

242
00:18:41,470 --> 00:18:46,327
And I'm there and he comes in,
this fucking smelly bear comes around me

243
00:18:46,410 --> 00:18:51,754
and he's like ripping my throat and he's
going into my pants and he's grabbing

244
00:18:51,837 --> 00:18:56,973
my groin. And I luckily, you know,
got around to do this stuff in the face.

245
00:18:57,056 --> 00:19:02,121
And then the two guards come in and
beating the crap out of him with razor

246
00:19:02,205 --> 00:19:06,310
straps. And I go, so I go,
what the hell is wrong with him?

247
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,160
You're in a crazier house, boy.

248
00:19:09,610 --> 00:19:14,873
Nothing's wrong with him. He's crazy.
That kind of thing. And I went, wow.

249
00:19:14,957 --> 00:19:19,209
So let me just get to the point.
I won't be labored anymore.

250
00:19:19,292 --> 00:19:24,917
I felt when I came out of there and I
was standing before the school president,

251
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,891
I mean, the principal,
because you learned your lesson.

252
00:19:28,974 --> 00:19:34,610
I learned a lot more than that lesson,
much better lesson. You can't break me.

253
00:19:35,050 --> 00:19:36,940
Thank you. You can't break me.

254
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:42,425
So when I got to the city
and everything that came after that,

255
00:19:42,508 --> 00:19:44,837
I always felt I was perfect.

256
00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:49,132
unbreakable in that in that way my heart
could be broken all that kind of stuff

257
00:19:49,216 --> 00:19:52,750
like every human being
but i'm talking about will Hm.

258
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:54,380
you end up

259
00:19:55,540 --> 00:19:59,937
showing up here in New
York City in your 20s. Yeah.

260
00:20:00,020 --> 00:20:01,380
And...

261
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:06,200
You have dropped out of college at this
point. You have backpacked around Europe.

262
00:20:07,340 --> 00:20:10,879
And you have no money. Right.
And you have a dream, though,

263
00:20:10,963 --> 00:20:16,037
that you want to become an actor. And you
take a job as an usher at a movie theater.

264
00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,620
Yeah. And I have to say this
was so interesting because –

265
00:20:20,450 --> 00:20:23,244
What comes through is what
an obsessive you became.

266
00:20:23,327 --> 00:20:26,460
You start writing down dialogue
from your favorite films.

267
00:20:26,543 --> 00:20:31,086
What were you trying to do there? What was
going on? I was really trying to learn.

268
00:20:31,169 --> 00:20:35,154
I should... You know, I'm non-existent.
I put on this monkey suit,

269
00:20:35,237 --> 00:20:40,280
and people don't even see you. But you're
in really a temple of wisdom in cinema.

270
00:20:40,363 --> 00:20:44,710
You can see what the audience reacts to,
where they laugh, they don't,

271
00:20:44,793 --> 00:20:49,266
who gets up, why do they get up.
You listen to them talk about the film,

272
00:20:49,349 --> 00:20:54,075
and every day was different. And then
I started to record it, write it down.

273
00:20:54,159 --> 00:20:58,442
And I lived literally in a film
with like a cell. It was a very tiny,

274
00:20:58,525 --> 00:21:00,740
like maybe eight-by-nine-foot room.

275
00:21:01,820 --> 00:21:06,736
On my bed, that's all we had. And I'd
have these old record albums of Traffic

276
00:21:06,819 --> 00:21:09,982
and Blood, Sweat, and Tears,
and that was my desk.

277
00:21:10,066 --> 00:21:15,260
And I would just translate notes and notes
and notes. And sometimes I'd go, ooh.

278
00:21:15,740 --> 00:21:17,060
What if this is it, son?

279
00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:22,064
You're sitting in the middle of a bed
like a fool doing something that sounds so

280
00:21:22,148 --> 00:21:23,390
stupid to anyone else.

281
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,240
What are you,
just postponing the inevitable?

282
00:21:31,420 --> 00:21:32,840
Then that fear would come.

283
00:21:34,740 --> 00:21:40,301
It's like the thing in the psych ward.
I'm not going to be. No, don't go there.

284
00:21:40,384 --> 00:21:44,600
Take the fear. Swallow it and move on.
Yeah, I mean, you...

285
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,916
You had an apartment where
there were blacked out windows,

286
00:21:48,999 --> 00:21:52,452
where you would write scripts
for days on end. I mean,

287
00:21:52,536 --> 00:21:57,037
it's just this absolutely kind
of manic intensity. And in this period,

288
00:21:57,121 --> 00:22:01,164
you were also getting into
altercations, you were living rough,

289
00:22:01,247 --> 00:22:05,945
but you were also spending your days
not only writing, but going to MoMA.

290
00:22:06,029 --> 00:22:06,880
All the time.

291
00:22:08,030 --> 00:22:12,709
You had this deep appreciation for art.
How did you understand these two sides

292
00:22:12,792 --> 00:22:17,277
of yourself? I don't know. It just
seems like if you're open, really open,

293
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:22,149
two different experiences. I just go
on by this place and I look in there and

294
00:22:22,232 --> 00:22:25,250
for some reason I go,
wow, the energy of the art.

295
00:22:25,333 --> 00:22:30,565
And you're looking at Le Gé and all these
incredible drawings and Monades and Starry

296
00:22:30,648 --> 00:22:35,311
Knights. I'm going, what makes them
so special? I could do that. Then I go,

297
00:22:35,394 --> 00:22:36,280
no, you can't.

298
00:22:36,620 --> 00:22:42,294
Look at it closer. Look at it closer.
And it just started to invigorate me.

299
00:22:42,377 --> 00:22:46,439
And then I developed this
unbelievable thirst for art,

300
00:22:46,522 --> 00:22:50,360
which is to this very day.
And I started to paint.

301
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,734
And I went there so many times, I didn't
pay anymore. I just knew everybody,

302
00:22:54,818 --> 00:22:57,398
like, come on in, you know,
get out of the cold.

303
00:22:57,481 --> 00:23:00,700
It's almost as if you're going
to the church of the brain.

304
00:23:01,460 --> 00:23:05,420
You know, you're the most wisdom
in the world. It's right here.

305
00:23:05,504 --> 00:23:10,426
And if you were walking around like a fog,
what am I going to do with my life?

306
00:23:10,510 --> 00:23:11,337
Go in there.

307
00:23:11,420 --> 00:23:15,502
You might find something that will give
you a little spark and interest that gets

308
00:23:15,585 --> 00:23:18,947
you going in that direction because
you're going in that direction.

309
00:23:19,030 --> 00:23:22,958
You wrote in the book, at my core, there
is this simmering cauldron of emotion

310
00:23:23,041 --> 00:23:27,277
that can overflow with volatility, but it
can also be directed towards deep artistic

311
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,507
relationships. purpose. And I was thinking
about that, those two sides of you, the

312
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:35,427
I'm going to... Thank you.

313
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:40,131
hit you if you hit me, but I'm also going
to go to MoMA and I'm also going to sit

314
00:23:40,214 --> 00:23:43,034
there and pray at the
Cathedral of Cinema. I mean,

315
00:23:43,117 --> 00:23:47,099
do you think you ever learned how
to control that cauldron? It's very,

316
00:23:47,183 --> 00:23:49,970
very explosive. I mean,
I'll tell you the truth.

317
00:23:51,710 --> 00:23:56,407
Sometimes in certain moments, like
in cinema, even as an adult, I'm going,

318
00:23:56,490 --> 00:24:00,218
like, at the end of First Blood
is a big nervous breakdown.

319
00:24:00,301 --> 00:24:04,805
And it wasn't written that way.
You know, I hadn't written it that way,

320
00:24:04,888 --> 00:24:08,547
but it came out. I said,
this is coming from that moment.

321
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:14,987
cauldron. And it's a self indignation
of being run down, dismissed.

322
00:24:15,071 --> 00:24:20,550
That's the way I felt.
The worst thing you can say to me,

323
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,728
The worst, you call me ugly,
call me this, call me short,

324
00:24:24,811 --> 00:24:30,469
don't call me stupid. Because that is what
my father used to say. And literally,

325
00:24:30,553 --> 00:24:34,500
it would turn me into a maniac
to prove I'm not stupid.

326
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,107
And I would just work and work and work.
For example, this morning,

327
00:24:38,191 --> 00:24:41,641
I'm 80 years old. I'm up at five
in the morning studying my dialogue.

328
00:24:41,780 --> 00:24:43,760
that I don't have to do for a month.

329
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:51,000
That kind of thing. You know, it's funny
that you mention that scene in Rambo,

330
00:24:51,504 --> 00:24:58,504
which is just an iconic scene. I was just
watching it again yesterday. Yeah.

331
00:24:58,816 --> 00:25:00,740
And nobody went out.

332
00:25:00,890 --> 00:25:07,890
I want to go home, Johnny. I want to drive
my Chevy. I can't find your fucking legs.

333
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,980
You are just filled
with rage and grief. Yeah.

334
00:25:16,940 --> 00:25:20,560
And it just translates
viscerally onto the screen.

335
00:25:22,010 --> 00:25:25,370
It wasn't written that way,
though. You just...

336
00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:31,130
Were tapping into that cauldron?
Yeah. I started...

337
00:25:31,310 --> 00:25:32,190
It was...

338
00:25:32,510 --> 00:25:37,984
The way it was written is I'm supposed
to commit suicide in a very cool manner.

339
00:25:38,067 --> 00:25:42,710
I said, no, wait a minute.
There's thousands and thousands of men.

340
00:25:43,010 --> 00:25:47,504
missing parts of their bodies that
literally actually thought they were doing

341
00:25:47,588 --> 00:25:52,261
something worthwhile. They were following
the rules and orders of their country.

342
00:25:52,344 --> 00:25:55,768
Then when they come back,
they're looked at as aberrations,

343
00:25:55,852 --> 00:26:00,703
Frankenstein's monsters. Then I started to
identify that's what I felt like growing

344
00:26:00,786 --> 00:26:04,710
up kind of a thing. And this kind
of rage that they must feel that

345
00:26:05,210 --> 00:26:09,522
It's not their parents.
It's their country that is scoring them.

346
00:26:09,606 --> 00:26:14,811
They're real parents. The ones they
literally lost blood and friends and died

347
00:26:14,894 --> 00:26:17,667
for and were mutilated. You can't say it.

348
00:26:17,750 --> 00:26:23,549
Nice try. Thank you. Nothing. So
this kind of and I really identified with

349
00:26:23,633 --> 00:26:27,210
this dismissive attitude
that I grew up with.

350
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:34,040
All the time. And boy, when I look
at that footage, I look distorted.

351
00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:38,150
I mean, it was the eyes. I mean, I was...

352
00:26:38,330 --> 00:26:42,258
gone for a few seconds.
And you're lucky enough,

353
00:26:42,341 --> 00:26:48,190
sometimes in acting or painting
or writing or anything, where you just

354
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,969
So subliminally lose yourself.
You do not know where you are. You know,

355
00:26:53,053 --> 00:26:58,037
people say, oh, maybe it happens in sex
for two seconds where you're literally

356
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:02,611
blanked out. What was that?
You know, kind of a thing. Well,

357
00:27:02,694 --> 00:27:07,580
when you have that moment
in acting where Is it over?

358
00:27:07,700 --> 00:27:11,980
Was it one take? One take. Wow.

359
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,345
Just to just to come back to this period
that you were in your apartment with

360
00:27:19,429 --> 00:27:23,219
the blacked out windows and you're
trying to make it as an actor.

361
00:27:23,302 --> 00:27:27,688
You get a lot of rejections because
of the way you look and you write Rocky

362
00:27:27,772 --> 00:27:31,383
for yourself. And the studios
are very excited for the script.

363
00:27:31,466 --> 00:27:35,972
And it's well known the story that the
studio ended up trying to pay you more

364
00:27:36,055 --> 00:27:39,607
and more money not to be in the film.
They wanted James Caan.

365
00:27:39,690 --> 00:27:41,180
They wanted Ryan O'Neill.

366
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:51,650
had this sense that This was like
your last chance? This was it. I was done.

367
00:27:52,490 --> 00:27:59,064
I had less than $100, $106 in the bank,
and there was something,

368
00:27:59,148 --> 00:28:04,994
and I don't know if it's spiritual,
but I said, God, man,

369
00:28:05,077 --> 00:28:11,021
I know in my heart that God. I will
regret this for the rest of my life,

370
00:28:11,104 --> 00:28:16,323
and I will be more of a broken man than if
I had never done this in the first place.

371
00:28:16,406 --> 00:28:21,183
And I don't know why I knew, because I
had no success. You know, I was green,

372
00:28:21,267 --> 00:28:25,034
really green. And they had every
right not to want to use me.

373
00:28:25,117 --> 00:28:29,957
If someone came in to me and did the same
thing and looked like me and slurred

374
00:28:30,041 --> 00:28:32,247
and all that, I'd go, come on, man.

375
00:28:32,330 --> 00:28:38,874
You're not acceptable to a lot
of different people in this country.

376
00:28:38,958 --> 00:28:45,958
But I don't know why. I just knew that
this is the crossroad. This is the bridge.

377
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,208
Don't cross it, man. Then jump off it.
Because I'm not going to have someone else

378
00:28:53,292 --> 00:28:56,120
do it. Because I know I
hate myself. I kill myself.

379
00:28:57,660 --> 00:29:00,651
Emotionally, that is.
No, I get it. I get it.

380
00:29:00,734 --> 00:29:04,955
Can I ask you just about this thing
that happened during Rocky?

381
00:29:05,039 --> 00:29:07,840
This is your big break. Yeah. You have...

382
00:29:07,940 --> 00:29:12,360
sacrificed everything for it. They give
you the part. Yeah. You're a nobody...

383
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:13,827
This is...

384
00:29:13,910 --> 00:29:20,631
Everything's riding on the movie. And you
cast your dad as the timekeeper who rings

385
00:29:20,715 --> 00:29:26,944
the bell in the climactic boxing match.
This is what the whole movie is going

386
00:29:27,028 --> 00:29:33,503
towards. And you bring in someone with
whom you've had this incredibly difficult

387
00:29:33,586 --> 00:29:37,790
relationship. And it's
turned into a mess. I mean...

388
00:29:37,910 --> 00:29:38,743
All right.

389
00:29:39,380 --> 00:29:42,206
Why did you let him back in?
I was just like,

390
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:46,345
I just want you to love me
for a little bit. A little bit. Like,

391
00:29:46,428 --> 00:29:51,582
look what I did. Share it with me. I know
you thought I was a fool my whole life,

392
00:29:51,665 --> 00:29:52,700
but here we are.

393
00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:58,240
This is not a joke. And he didn't ring
the bell properly and I kept fighting

394
00:29:58,323 --> 00:29:59,917
and fighting and fighting.

395
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,160
You know, when everything's choreographed,
it's a one, two, three, four bell bell.

396
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:10,590
Not six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
So Carl Weathers is like, what's going on?

397
00:30:10,770 --> 00:30:15,943
Like you're throwing punches and you're
trying to ad lib and then it looks really

398
00:30:16,027 --> 00:30:19,837
fake. You know what I mean?
I could ring the bell, you know,

399
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,536
whoever yelled at me and it
became like, I said, oh, God,

400
00:30:23,619 --> 00:30:28,922
a really bad Italian trauma. And of course
it ended up in an altercation by the end

401
00:30:29,006 --> 00:30:33,530
of the round, you know, it was,
you got really nasty. But for a moment,

402
00:30:33,613 --> 00:30:35,690
I thought, Jesus, he'd be proud.

403
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,380
And later you end up inviting
your mom to the Oscars. Yeah.

404
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:46,740
For Rocky. So then you call
her up and you say, hey, I...

405
00:30:47,370 --> 00:30:53,080
This film... I'm... Might win an Oscar
for it. Who's in it? I can't admit it.

406
00:30:53,163 --> 00:30:58,450
And she blows you off. Yeah. Can I ask
you about your mom specifically because

407
00:30:59,580 --> 00:31:02,100
As we've discussed here,
she was difficult.

408
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,420
This is putting it lightly. You're
quite scathing about her in the book.

409
00:31:08,980 --> 00:31:12,437
And then in the 1990s,
she becomes like a celebrity psychic.

410
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,564
I'm Jackie Stallone,
psychic astrologer to the stars.

411
00:31:15,647 --> 00:31:19,930
I have predicted fame and fortune
for movie stars and celebrities all over

412
00:31:20,013 --> 00:31:21,960
the world. And I just wondered...

413
00:31:22,380 --> 00:31:27,743
To jump a little later into your life
and your relationship with your parents,

414
00:31:27,827 --> 00:31:32,220
how did you manage the dynamics
when – you know, she...

415
00:31:32,790 --> 00:31:37,015
sees proximity to your fame
as a financial opportunity. I mean,

416
00:31:37,098 --> 00:31:40,092
that must have been
a hard dynamic to manage.

417
00:31:40,175 --> 00:31:45,030
It was very hard because she had
been married three more times and then

418
00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:47,130
I saw her... Thank you.

419
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:54,140
posing as a psychic with a turban
and rhinestones and this

420
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,817
over-inflated sense of like buffoonery.

421
00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:03,039
Or she would go on Howard Stern and mock
my father and call him terrible things.

422
00:32:03,122 --> 00:32:07,804
And then they'd get on the phone.
And I had my father and mother fighting

423
00:32:07,887 --> 00:32:09,727
on Howard Stern. I'm going...

424
00:32:09,810 --> 00:32:12,935
What other guy has to go through this?
Yeah, this is 1992.

425
00:32:13,018 --> 00:32:17,027
They had this horrible on-air argument.
But you two produced a movie star.

426
00:32:17,111 --> 00:32:20,456
Let's say you guys did produce
a movie star. No help from him.

427
00:32:20,540 --> 00:32:24,826
Any guy could have done the job in three
seconds. He didn't even want the best.

428
00:32:24,909 --> 00:32:28,476
He tried to get me to have an abortion.
Really? It's unbelievable.

429
00:32:28,559 --> 00:32:32,126
Why would you go on and humiliate
yourself? You're humiliating me.

430
00:32:32,210 --> 00:32:35,721
My children. Stop. I'll pay you
anything to do whatever you want.

431
00:32:35,805 --> 00:32:37,630
The finest restaurants. Anything.

432
00:32:39,810 --> 00:32:44,006
Try to be proud. He goes, why aren't
you proud of me? I went, there it is.

433
00:32:44,089 --> 00:32:47,790
I'll never forget. I asked,
I said, have you ever done anything?

434
00:32:48,420 --> 00:32:51,600
Well... I mean, do you
have any regrets? Yes.

435
00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:52,763
No!

436
00:32:53,670 --> 00:32:55,730
Why? I went, wow.

437
00:32:56,340 --> 00:33:01,117
I live on regrets. I can make
a castle out of regrets. I mean,

438
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,120
when people say I have no
regrets, I go, bullshit.

439
00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:08,977
Come on. Really? You're that perfect?
Everything was just...

440
00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:14,197
Right. And that's just the way
it was to the day she died.

441
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,780
And the last effort
at the Oscars, I thought, wow.

442
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:22,201
Ten months earlier,
I was basically homeless.

443
00:33:22,284 --> 00:33:26,423
Now we're with incredible competition,
and you don't want to go. See,

444
00:33:26,507 --> 00:33:31,013
here it is. I'll put it in a nutshell.
He never wanted to be alone with me,

445
00:33:31,097 --> 00:33:31,837
ever. Ever.

446
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:38,069
And she didn't go. And she stuck to her
guns. And it really hurt me hard. I see.

447
00:33:38,152 --> 00:33:40,100
I won't go there anymore.

448
00:33:40,620 --> 00:33:45,414
You know, that kind of,
but it does affect you. My wife,

449
00:33:45,498 --> 00:33:49,857
I know it's hard to get over it.
It's very nagging.

450
00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:56,560
It's a nagging scar that won't fully
close. And every now and then it weeps.

451
00:33:58,340 --> 00:34:00,600
But again, that's your cross to bear.

452
00:34:01,050 --> 00:34:06,310
Maybe that's why you had this
certain sort of selective rage.

453
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,557
Did you go to therapy later in your life?
No. I said, it's not going to help.

454
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,680
It's just not going to help because...

455
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:22,360
It doesn't go away. You cover all this
subterfuge and ideology and intellectual

456
00:34:22,798 --> 00:34:27,600
this and that and breathing
and meditation until...

457
00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:29,690
That moment, late at night.

458
00:34:30,630 --> 00:34:36,214
And you're right back. And now you're
in an anxiety. You ever have anxiety?

459
00:34:36,297 --> 00:34:42,032
Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has,
it's coming from something that's so

460
00:34:42,116 --> 00:34:46,491
deep-rooted. Tell me about
when you first suffered anxiety.

461
00:34:46,574 --> 00:34:52,090
It was the first time I did is when
I was 36. And I was watching dailies.

462
00:34:54,450 --> 00:34:57,944
All of a sudden, I stood up
and the hair on my neck went up.

463
00:34:58,027 --> 00:35:02,117
I started getting hot. I go, I'm dying.
This is it. I'm on my way out.

464
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:08,630
Heart banged down. I went. took a knee,
crawled, rolled over, and then

465
00:35:08,970 --> 00:35:11,430
Not only is dark like movie theater.

466
00:35:12,450 --> 00:35:15,773
I'm like, where the fuck
is this coming from?

467
00:35:15,856 --> 00:35:21,676
And then it happened again and again
and again. They went away for five years.

468
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:27,353
And then it always seems to happen
as you're ready to go on the Today Show.

469
00:35:27,436 --> 00:35:28,950
Boom, eight seconds.

470
00:35:29,370 --> 00:35:34,271
And you feel it coming on.
Anybody got Xanax? It's too late.

471
00:35:34,355 --> 00:35:40,668
So you're just sitting there holding
your chair going, I feel for it. I mean,

472
00:35:40,752 --> 00:35:45,154
it's not a joke. No.
You know, anxiety. It's like, no.

473
00:35:45,238 --> 00:35:49,890
I think people would find it
very heartening that you...

474
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:56,700
have experienced that. Oh, my God.
Especially as I got older and

475
00:35:56,820 --> 00:36:01,785
It was weird. When I'm in a crowd,
I'd be with my wife at an ARC expedition,

476
00:36:01,869 --> 00:36:06,120
and the room is filling up.
It's getting more and more and more.

477
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:09,240
And then I go, I'm going, I'm going down.

478
00:36:09,420 --> 00:36:12,466
I figured, let's get out
of here. And literally,

479
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:17,161
I'd just make it to the alley. Boom,
get down on one knee. Did it again,

480
00:36:17,244 --> 00:36:21,660
and I was at the mayor's office
of Philadelphia receiving some award,

481
00:36:21,743 --> 00:36:26,094
and everyone sort of crowded me
in the corner. I said, I have to go.

482
00:36:26,177 --> 00:36:30,528
Thank you very much. And I just
made it out of there. And I go, hmm,

483
00:36:30,611 --> 00:36:34,244
what is that indicative of?
It never bothered you before.

484
00:36:34,327 --> 00:36:36,727
So there's something still happening.

485
00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:38,730
bubbling inside, festering.

486
00:36:40,110 --> 00:36:45,399
It's a marvel, for example, that we still
have magma and lava four billion years

487
00:36:45,482 --> 00:36:50,703
later in the center of the earth. How
long does it take to cool an egg? I mean,

488
00:36:50,787 --> 00:36:55,890
my God. So the same thing, our emotions
are always on the verge of eruption.

489
00:36:57,970 --> 00:36:59,790
Despite having such a

490
00:37:01,140 --> 00:37:04,500
I don't even know the word anymore.

491
00:37:05,250 --> 00:37:09,685
Upsetting. upbringing.
You've become a father of five.

492
00:37:09,769 --> 00:37:12,844
What did you learn about
being a good parent,

493
00:37:12,927 --> 00:37:17,317
considering you didn't really
at all have role models for that?

494
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,707
I really wasn't a very good
parent. My wife, Jennifer,

495
00:37:21,790 --> 00:37:26,015
is the greatest woman ever
before. I mean, seriously,

496
00:37:26,099 --> 00:37:32,844
she's just like my guardian angel. I would
have been dead like three times for real.

497
00:37:32,927 --> 00:37:39,185
And she just is the most giving. I don't
have that gear of just abandonment of

498
00:37:39,268 --> 00:37:42,457
your own personal self for someone else.

499
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:46,912
It's really unbelievable.
And she raised my daughters that way.

500
00:37:46,995 --> 00:37:50,460
In my first marriage,
it wasn't like that. And...

501
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:56,557
I was in my warrior mode. I was like,
oh, let's conquer the world. You know,

502
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:02,557
this is your moment. And everything
fell by the wayside. And it was just...

503
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:07,740
Measly manner of existence.
It really was. It was...

504
00:38:08,490 --> 00:38:10,730
The reality was the movie set.

505
00:38:11,580 --> 00:38:15,000
The surreal world was my life.

506
00:38:15,330 --> 00:38:20,596
I have no control out here.
I'm at everyone's beck and call.

507
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,870
I don't like it.
I couldn't wait to work again.

508
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,400
Terrible to say that, but it's true. Hmm.

509
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,560
Um... Thank you.

510
00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:36,852
You suffered an unimaginable loss
in 2012 when your eldest son, Sage, died.

511
00:38:36,936 --> 00:38:42,457
He had an undiagnosed heart condition
that killed him when he was only 36 years.

512
00:38:42,540 --> 00:38:45,780
And I just want to say
I'm so sorry. Thank you.

513
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:47,190
Thank you.

514
00:38:47,850 --> 00:38:53,830
I imagine that must have profoundly
changed you. Oh. You know...

515
00:38:54,330 --> 00:38:58,150
The thing is, you know,
you have so many...

516
00:38:58,290 --> 00:39:01,281
episodes of guilt. Like,
what could I have done?

517
00:39:01,364 --> 00:39:05,700
Should I have been there if I did that?
If I went right, right, left?

518
00:39:05,784 --> 00:39:08,730
I had no idea that...
I mean, it was stunning.

519
00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:10,560
Like, I'll never forget.

520
00:39:11,220 --> 00:39:14,310
Yeah. It was so cold. My...

521
00:39:15,150 --> 00:39:18,730
mother's new husband. I never met.

522
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:21,310
He was a doctor. I get a phone call.

523
00:39:22,020 --> 00:39:24,620
Friday the 13th. You guys.

524
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,940
Sly, Stephen, he's gone.

525
00:39:31,140 --> 00:39:33,300
Who's gone? He goes, Sage, she's gone.

526
00:39:34,260 --> 00:39:37,680
They can't wear it. It's a date. It can't.

527
00:39:38,310 --> 00:39:39,670
I'm sorry. Click.

528
00:39:41,310 --> 00:39:45,310
This is possible. That's how you found it.
That's how, yeah, that's how.

529
00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:48,690
He's gone. He's gone. Dead, sorry.

530
00:39:50,030 --> 00:39:52,530
And It wasn't

531
00:39:52,740 --> 00:39:57,852
You know, because of the funeral,
because of all that, again,

532
00:39:57,936 --> 00:39:59,927
dealing with the mother,

533
00:40:00,010 --> 00:40:05,019
present, and it just takes
you into a whole other world.

534
00:40:05,103 --> 00:40:10,294
And I'll never forget. I go,
wow, I'm holding it together.

535
00:40:10,378 --> 00:40:14,470
When is it going to happen?
You know, when...

536
00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:19,040
And then... About a week later,

537
00:40:19,390 --> 00:40:22,630
I was all alone in my room.

538
00:40:23,350 --> 00:40:29,370
And a whale came out of me. I've never
heard before since. It was just...

539
00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:30,850
Such...

540
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:32,583
key.

541
00:40:32,980 --> 00:40:39,980
and grief and guilt.
And it was just a, it was not human.

542
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,150
Thank you. It really wasn't.

543
00:40:43,450 --> 00:40:49,410
But all I can say is that he was a very
kind kid. He had a great mother,

544
00:40:49,493 --> 00:40:55,117
a nice, you know, we would have
done wonderful things in the future.

545
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,947
I just had no idea that he had...

546
00:40:58,030 --> 00:41:03,410
Something that you would expect
a very advanced adult to have.

547
00:41:03,730 --> 00:41:05,850
But no, you don't get over that.

548
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:13,180
Mm-mm. I'm sorry.

549
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:17,840
. Thank you.

550
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:19,353
Thank you.

551
00:41:20,590 --> 00:41:22,870
Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky.

552
00:41:25,420 --> 00:41:28,390
It got... Ten Oscar nominations.

553
00:41:29,710 --> 00:41:31,470
It ended up winning Best Picture.

554
00:41:33,010 --> 00:41:35,660
Um... And

555
00:41:37,390 --> 00:41:41,825
It's not just the film, but you end up
capturing the public's imagination because

556
00:41:41,908 --> 00:41:43,470
it was this fairytale story.

557
00:41:45,790 --> 00:41:47,650
And I'm very interested in...

558
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:55,849
in you looking back at this transition
from becoming a struggling actor

559
00:41:55,932 --> 00:42:01,400
to suddenly becoming the hottest
star in Hollywood. Because in...

560
00:42:01,810 --> 00:42:06,725
the book, there is this picture
of you, which is very poignant.

561
00:42:06,808 --> 00:42:12,199
And the caption reads, my last day
of being anonymous. And I thought,

562
00:42:12,282 --> 00:42:18,470
what an interesting thing to put in a book
that you can delineate that moment.

563
00:42:19,090 --> 00:42:22,180
you know, where You
could walk the streets and

564
00:42:22,330 --> 00:42:26,091
And no one would know Sylvester
Stallone. And then after,

565
00:42:26,174 --> 00:42:30,490
that was never going to be the case again.
No. It was a tsunami.

566
00:42:31,780 --> 00:42:35,620
The movie started at 12 noon, and...

567
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,200
at two

568
00:42:38,470 --> 00:42:45,470
People started coming, they saw me, and it
was a deluge of being completely obscure

569
00:42:45,582 --> 00:42:47,210
for 30 years about.

570
00:42:47,830 --> 00:42:53,676
Just walking through being a non-entity to
now being this celebrity and someone who

571
00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:58,392
has tapped into their hearts
in more than just a movie. Like, hey,

572
00:42:58,475 --> 00:43:01,690
there was a great action film.
It was like...

573
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,960
That's my story. That's this,
that's that. And I went, oh, my God.

574
00:43:05,044 --> 00:43:06,544
And I could hear the applause.

575
00:43:06,940 --> 00:43:11,537
Who the... Paul, is that a movie
theater? It was like a...

576
00:43:11,620 --> 00:43:16,898
an event. And I'm looking at my brother.
He goes, oh, you're in for it now,

577
00:43:16,981 --> 00:43:19,840
pal. And that's... It really was just...

578
00:43:20,410 --> 00:43:25,610
overnight. It was just overnight.
I don't know if...

579
00:43:25,810 --> 00:43:32,810
It's never happened again, obviously.
It's the rarest combination of obscurity

580
00:43:32,953 --> 00:43:38,090
to fame in a matter of two
hours that's documented. Whoa.

581
00:43:38,173 --> 00:43:41,447
Did you look at fame as something...

582
00:43:41,530 --> 00:43:46,972
in the same way as the psych ward.
And let me try to explain what I mean,

583
00:43:47,055 --> 00:43:52,050
which is this isn't going to change
me or did you look at it as...

584
00:43:52,150 --> 00:43:53,900
This is everything I'd ever wanted.

585
00:43:55,180 --> 00:44:01,707
Hmm. Well, I don't know if it
changed me, but it allowed me.

586
00:44:01,790 --> 00:44:08,097
Because fame breaks some people.
Well, it didn't break me.

587
00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:14,177
What it did is it made me
combative. It made me very...

588
00:44:14,260 --> 00:44:16,760
I told you so. Revengeful, spiteful.

589
00:44:19,930 --> 00:44:26,714
All the rejection, everything else, it
was, oh, my God, it was so insufferable.

590
00:44:26,797 --> 00:44:32,103
I really was. Even with the New
York Times, oh, Madame Bovary,

591
00:44:32,186 --> 00:44:37,927
anyone can write that. It was just,
I don't know. I mean, Lily was,

592
00:44:38,010 --> 00:44:41,510
I became a petulant child.
They really did.

593
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:48,913
Years later, I mean, I despise myself.
I'm surprised I'm still here. You know,

594
00:44:48,996 --> 00:44:52,988
I managed to alienate
the entire press. I really did.

595
00:44:53,071 --> 00:44:57,370
And people that believed in me
and so on, I just was not,

596
00:44:57,453 --> 00:45:02,213
I was just not humble.
There was no humility whatsoever. Again,

597
00:45:02,296 --> 00:45:08,600
it's just childhood eruptions coming to
the surface at the most inopportune times.

598
00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:13,898
Yeah. I want to talk about some of the
people you worked with and came across in

599
00:45:13,981 --> 00:45:16,984
the 80s. And of course, we're going
to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger,

600
00:45:17,067 --> 00:45:19,217
who you're now friends
with, we should say.

601
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,440
But he was a huge action star back then.

602
00:45:23,350 --> 00:45:27,090
And you said you couldn't stand
to be in the same room. No.

603
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:32,397
I mean, why did you hate him so much?
What was it though? What was it though?

604
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,891
Like, take me back before
the friendship was a challenge.

605
00:45:35,975 --> 00:45:40,489
He was he I thought I had something
going on and then I could see this guy,

606
00:45:40,572 --> 00:45:43,616
this immovable force,
a very confident human being,

607
00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:48,029
I think even more so than me,
and more psychological in the way he would

608
00:45:48,113 --> 00:45:52,137
manipulate and do things very cunningly,
and not in a negative way,

609
00:45:52,220 --> 00:45:55,040
but just shrewdly.
I was blunt force. He would

610
00:45:55,330 --> 00:45:58,133
Machiavellian, cool.
And I went, God damn it.

611
00:45:58,216 --> 00:46:02,366
And he's winning these awards
and he's a bodybuilder and I'm like,

612
00:46:02,449 --> 00:46:06,920
I consider myself somewhat more of a,
you know. A thespian. A thespian.

613
00:46:07,003 --> 00:46:09,678
A dramaturge. You know,
that kind of thing.

614
00:46:09,761 --> 00:46:15,347
A peripatetic dramaturge just wandering
their country acting. And I went, wow.

615
00:46:15,430 --> 00:46:21,015
This is my guy. This is the guy I know
I'm going to have trouble with. Period.

616
00:46:21,099 --> 00:46:25,231
And sure enough, we did.
We were just going at each other,

617
00:46:25,314 --> 00:46:31,045
which turned out to be fantastic. And,
you know, I've had some moments with him,

618
00:46:31,128 --> 00:46:36,070
and I'm regretful for some of the
things I've said about him, but...

619
00:46:36,340 --> 00:46:42,901
He antagonized me in a creative way and I
did to him. I was a thorn in his side,

620
00:46:42,984 --> 00:46:47,921
he was a thorn in my side, but it
just forced us to keep moving higher,

621
00:46:48,004 --> 00:46:52,446
bigger guns, louder moves,
more action, more bodies, everything,

622
00:46:52,529 --> 00:46:58,173
until I think we really carved out a niche
that'll never quite come around again,

623
00:46:58,257 --> 00:47:03,547
that certain 80s, over-the-top action
genre that he and I sort of pioneered.

624
00:47:03,630 --> 00:47:09,704
You did. Yeah. It's like a creative
marriage in a way. It is. I mean,

625
00:47:09,787 --> 00:47:16,590
so it's like Ali and Fraser. You need
that thing that brings you to the surface

626
00:47:16,673 --> 00:47:22,168
that more than any other person,
it's not even hatred. This guy,

627
00:47:22,251 --> 00:47:28,967
I dream about him. It's like I'm on his
mind. He's on my mind. It's very rare.

628
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:34,280
You know what I mean? Men get it.
I'm sure women get it too.

629
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:36,920
alpha men who I can only relate to.

630
00:47:37,870 --> 00:47:40,530
It's like you can't wait.

631
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:45,602
to go against him, that kind of thing.
And then he does better than you.

632
00:47:45,685 --> 00:47:50,513
And then he just gloats on it. Oh, I see
that Stallone's film didn't perform very

633
00:47:50,596 --> 00:47:55,667
well. Oh, oh, oh. And then vice versa. And
then eventually we end up working together

634
00:47:55,750 --> 00:47:59,850
in Expendables. And I go on the
campaign trail for him. Unbelievable.

635
00:47:59,933 --> 00:48:04,701
When was the moment that you two, that you
thought, we put this to rest? I mean,

636
00:48:04,784 --> 00:48:09,066
did it just come with age and him
moving into politics and just sort of?

637
00:48:09,149 --> 00:48:10,180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

638
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:18,272
come on, actors in politics,
this is oil and water. Because we tend to,

639
00:48:18,355 --> 00:48:22,220
actors really very, very self-absorbed,

640
00:48:24,140 --> 00:48:28,983
and politicians, if they're really
good, should be just the opposite,

641
00:48:29,067 --> 00:48:32,767
publicly absorbed.
So I saw there's a conflict there.

642
00:48:32,851 --> 00:48:38,420
But he was definitely sincere about it,
and I don't know why, but he asked me,

643
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,957
We're at a cigar place.
Would you like to...

644
00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:46,497
We had an event. I went, yeah? I said,
why did I say that? And then sure enough,

645
00:48:46,580 --> 00:48:50,866
then we hit it off. And he's a very,
very unique, I mean, he's one of a kind,

646
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:53,931
forget it. It's just, I'm sorry.
So until that moment,

647
00:48:54,014 --> 00:48:58,130
you really hadn't spent time with him.
You didn't know you even liked him.

648
00:48:58,213 --> 00:49:00,540
I'm telling you, we always came to blows.

649
00:49:02,020 --> 00:49:06,423
When we were at Planet Hollywood,
we couldn't stand to be in the same arena.

650
00:49:06,506 --> 00:49:10,673
Right, because in the early 90s,
you founded, with Bruce Willis as well,

651
00:49:10,756 --> 00:49:15,517
Planet Hollywood. And you couldn't
even, you were in business together,

652
00:49:15,601 --> 00:49:19,414
but you couldn't stand being
in the same room. Oh, my God.

653
00:49:19,497 --> 00:49:24,654
I'll never forget. There's a picture
of he and I dancing. And it was, I think,

654
00:49:24,738 --> 00:49:30,163
was it Total Recall or something? And it
was at the Hotel Du Cap in the afternoon.

655
00:49:30,247 --> 00:49:32,140
It's festive. And everyone is there.

656
00:49:32,530 --> 00:49:36,402
I want to take a picture.
Okay, slide. Take a picture. Okay.

657
00:49:36,486 --> 00:49:39,237
Take a picture together.
He goes, director,

658
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,588
why don't you come in here and get
in the middle? I went, oh, man.

659
00:49:43,671 --> 00:49:47,160
And then I grab him. You know,
like we're waltzing. And he goes,

660
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,279
To me, it's the greatest picture because
I said, let's put this, let's stop.

661
00:49:52,362 --> 00:49:56,820
You know what I mean? Let's just do this
dance because that's what it is, you know?

662
00:49:58,210 --> 00:49:59,937
There's never going to be.

663
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:05,240
You could do a movie about this, for real.
You really could. You really could.

664
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:06,673
All right.

665
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:10,291
We don't have much time.
That's why I'm going like that.

666
00:50:10,375 --> 00:50:12,950
And I'm upset because I
have so much to ask you.

667
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:19,395
So I'm going to skip asking you about
working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition

668
00:50:19,478 --> 00:50:24,002
Man and Sharon Stone and the specialist.
So we're going to move on. Bye,

669
00:50:24,085 --> 00:50:27,540
ladies. Yeah. Bye, ladies.
Indeed. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah.

670
00:50:29,090 --> 00:50:33,528
What I do want to ask you is about
your body. Body? Body, yes. Your physique.

671
00:50:33,611 --> 00:50:37,638
Now you're getting personal.
Because at several points in your career,

672
00:50:37,721 --> 00:50:40,047
you were exceptionally muscular. Mm-hmm.

673
00:50:40,130 --> 00:50:46,665
which wasn't your build before Rocky. And
I was really curious how your relationship

674
00:50:46,748 --> 00:50:53,130
with your body has changed over time. How,
you know, you saw yourself and then...

675
00:50:53,390 --> 00:50:59,270
how when you, turned into this big action
star with the big muscles and everyone was

676
00:50:59,390 --> 00:51:02,497
sort of venerating that.
How did you see yourself?

677
00:51:02,580 --> 00:51:07,473
How did your relationship with that change
over time? It became very intimate,

678
00:51:07,557 --> 00:51:08,450
you might say.

679
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,984
It was my armor. I looked
at like Rocky, Rocky, very smooth,

680
00:51:14,067 --> 00:51:19,400
very normal looking guy. And then I
said, if we move on, you have to...

681
00:51:19,490 --> 00:51:23,488
I think the character would
start to become a bit more vain.

682
00:51:23,571 --> 00:51:26,481
And then if Rambo,
you're playing a warrior,

683
00:51:26,564 --> 00:51:30,970
you'd be a little bit more animalistic.
You wouldn't be so smooth.

684
00:51:31,053 --> 00:51:34,250
So I started to think,
design your body like...

685
00:51:34,610 --> 00:51:41,610
a jaguar, a cat. Not big like Arnold, but
more feral and aggressive and very limber

686
00:51:42,020 --> 00:51:46,930
and move and athletic.
And then it became an obsession.

687
00:51:48,110 --> 00:51:54,030
really bad. It became to the
point where I became bulimic.

688
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:59,038
You didn't know that. Okay. You heard
it here first. Yeah, because it was like,

689
00:51:59,121 --> 00:52:03,959
you know, you would eat. I got down to 2.6
potty fat when I was doing Rocky III

690
00:52:04,042 --> 00:52:08,381
in the opening scene. Literally like,
go for it. You know, like hollow.

691
00:52:08,465 --> 00:52:11,309
And I couldn't hold
anything down. Or if I did,

692
00:52:11,392 --> 00:52:16,497
I didn't want to keep it down because I
wanted to, I became so obsessed at eating.

693
00:52:16,580 --> 00:52:20,900
staying at that point of fitness.
And then finally, you know,

694
00:52:20,983 --> 00:52:26,818
I just broke the cycle. But it got to me,
literally an obsessive body worship kind

695
00:52:26,902 --> 00:52:31,510
of a thing. And then, you know,
nobody does it without, you know,

696
00:52:31,593 --> 00:52:36,996
additives and drugs, period. I don't
care who they say. Bullshit. It has to.

697
00:52:37,079 --> 00:52:40,760
But then again, it isn't
as though you're a junkie.

698
00:52:46,580 --> 00:52:50,586
and you're eating yogurt and pudding
and it's not happening. You know,

699
00:52:50,669 --> 00:52:54,676
you're just not. So you're taking
steroids, you're saying? Oh, my God.

700
00:52:54,759 --> 00:52:59,910
You have to. But you do it in a sense,
in a way, six weeks off. And people go,

701
00:52:59,994 --> 00:53:03,862
you don't get that way naturally.
No, you don't. You don't,

702
00:53:03,946 --> 00:53:08,015
unless you're just a freak of nature.
So everyone who says it,

703
00:53:08,099 --> 00:53:11,632
I can see them a mile away,
you know, what is obvious.

704
00:53:11,716 --> 00:53:14,060
But that also took a terrible toll.

705
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:18,717
Terrible toll and emotionally,
too, because. Oh, yeah. No, no.

706
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,804
Your moods and everything. It wasn't
until I did cop land where I had to,

707
00:53:23,887 --> 00:53:29,378
like, divest myself of that and played
the weakest guy in the room and partially

708
00:53:29,462 --> 00:53:34,047
deaf, overweight, everything that I
really felt somewhat liberated.

709
00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:36,360
Then things went sideways and I.

710
00:53:36,470 --> 00:53:40,739
I don't know, I just fell out
of grace with Hollywood. But, yeah,

711
00:53:40,823 --> 00:53:42,430
the body has played a...

712
00:53:43,010 --> 00:53:48,718
I've abused it. I've had nine back
operation, two shoulder operation,

713
00:53:48,802 --> 00:53:55,098
three neck fusions, you know, everything
is held together with bailing wire.

714
00:53:55,181 --> 00:53:59,211
But I still have that want
to stay in good shape.

715
00:53:59,294 --> 00:54:05,003
Do you still see it as your armor?
No, that because you're still fit.

716
00:54:05,086 --> 00:54:10,710
You're sort of fit. But, you know,
I've got all kinds of, you know.

717
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,921
Take a lot of pills to keep going,
you know, that kind of thing.

718
00:54:15,005 --> 00:54:18,624
It's coming at a terrible price.
If I could do it over again,

719
00:54:18,707 --> 00:54:22,994
I would say let someone else carry
the banner. Don't do your own stunts.

720
00:54:23,077 --> 00:54:26,757
You know, I don't know what it
was about just hurting myself.

721
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:32,299
All the time. I mean... All the time.
Is it masochistic? Yeah, very masochistic.

722
00:54:32,382 --> 00:54:38,023
It's not like I'm self-flagellating, but
if someone's going to dive onto the canvas

723
00:54:38,106 --> 00:54:43,816
and Rocky, they take a hit full force and
go backwards and land hood because there's

724
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:48,575
no padding. You're like landing
on a board with a little thin canvas.

725
00:54:48,658 --> 00:54:53,900
It just jars you and jars you, but you go,
I can do better. I can do better.

726
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,140
No, you're not going to break me.

727
00:55:01,490 --> 00:55:06,976
But it does break. You do get broken
a little bit physically, not mentally.

728
00:55:07,059 --> 00:55:08,990
We're going to talk again.

729
00:55:10,010 --> 00:55:14,730
But I want to end with something
that you said about regret. Yeah.

730
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:21,413
And... that you don't get to be your age
at your career without a mountain of them.

731
00:55:21,496 --> 00:55:23,950
And we've kind of touched
on that a little. Yeah.

732
00:55:25,790 --> 00:55:30,725
It's horrible. It's horrible.
It really is. Because, you know,

733
00:55:30,808 --> 00:55:34,772
it's the fog of war,
the war of trying to succeed.

734
00:55:34,855 --> 00:55:39,628
You can blame it on that or just
self-pedi, self-absorption.

735
00:55:39,711 --> 00:55:45,900
And you go, wow. And it It's painful.
But yesterday is dead.

736
00:55:46,310 --> 00:55:49,609
The future is unknown.
All we got is today.

737
00:55:49,692 --> 00:55:55,430
You keep going back to that philosophy
and you don't forgive yourself. No,

738
00:55:55,513 --> 00:56:00,390
you forgive yourself for being
a bastard. No, you just regret.

739
00:56:00,980 --> 00:56:04,422
I wish I hadn't done that.
Wish I hadn't done that.

740
00:56:04,505 --> 00:56:09,053
So I'm not going to do that anymore.
But God. Because what you did,

741
00:56:09,136 --> 00:56:14,375
you hurt yourself. You really did.
Yeah, you denied people your love and this

742
00:56:14,458 --> 00:56:18,740
and that. But you also
did worse to yourself.

743
00:56:19,490 --> 00:56:21,710
Have you forgiven your parents?

744
00:56:23,420 --> 00:56:24,253
Hmm.

745
00:56:25,490 --> 00:56:26,323
Okay.

746
00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:30,630
I've accepted it.
Thank you. that they are.

747
00:56:31,370 --> 00:56:35,490
who they are, you know, to forgive.

748
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:42,720
I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean,
it's definitely a delicate peace treaty.

749
00:56:44,030 --> 00:56:51,030
But, yeah, I have to. What are we,
they walk around yelling at ghosts?

750
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:53,020
Come back here.

751
00:56:53,660 --> 00:56:57,820
You know, we're not finished. Oh,
we can't. That's about the regrets,

752
00:56:57,903 --> 00:57:02,923
you know. So all I can do is cherish every
second because, let's face it, you know,

753
00:57:03,007 --> 00:57:06,490
I can see the light at the end
of the tunnel. There it is.

754
00:57:06,573 --> 00:57:11,286
And I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing
Tulsa King. And, I mean, it's a gift.

755
00:57:11,369 --> 00:57:13,460
And David Glasser, you know, like.

756
00:57:14,270 --> 00:57:18,682
Giving me this new breath
of life and a whole new character.

757
00:57:18,765 --> 00:57:23,627
Imagine playing like, oh yeah,
we're doing Rambo at 80. Oh my God,

758
00:57:23,710 --> 00:57:27,148
who's he fighting?
He's fighting Mr. Arthritis.

759
00:57:27,231 --> 00:57:33,150
You're kind of out of opponents. You're
fighting, oh yeah, brain disease. Okay.

760
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,360
We'll end here for now.
Sylvester Stallone, thank you so much.

761
00:57:41,420 --> 00:57:45,619
Ciao. On the interview,
we talked to our guest twice.

762
00:57:45,703 --> 00:57:49,983
So the next day I spoke
with Sylvester Stallone again,

763
00:57:50,066 --> 00:57:56,124
and he told me about his evolution
from being an avatar for war in the Rambo

764
00:57:56,207 --> 00:57:59,520
movies into becoming personally anti-war.

765
00:58:00,620 --> 00:58:07,620
Hi. Hi. Back for more. What is wrong
with you? I'll give you my word though.

766
00:58:07,789 --> 00:58:13,260
You have the most in-depth
interview I'm ever doing. So...

767
00:58:13,430 --> 00:58:18,584
Take that to the bank. Well, actually,
I wanted to thank you so much for

768
00:58:18,668 --> 00:58:21,650
your candor yesterday. You have always...

769
00:58:21,860 --> 00:58:25,584
been this person who
has exuded invincibility.

770
00:58:25,667 --> 00:58:32,039
That's been your persona in your life,
and that's been your persona in many of

771
00:58:32,122 --> 00:58:37,260
your roles. And so... It's kind of
astonishing to see you be so vulnerable.

772
00:58:38,210 --> 00:58:43,372
Even though I put on this
facade of having armor,

773
00:58:43,455 --> 00:58:48,832
like when you see Rocky
and I'm writing for Adrian,

774
00:58:48,915 --> 00:58:53,090
I really have a lot of empathy for him.

775
00:58:53,180 --> 00:58:57,274
people that just didn't get a break
in life. And I've always thought,

776
00:58:57,357 --> 00:58:59,998
boy, there's so many
stories in these people,

777
00:59:00,081 --> 00:59:02,200
but they're never going to get out.

778
00:59:02,750 --> 00:59:06,122
So that's why I think
Rocky was such a success,

779
00:59:06,206 --> 00:59:11,784
because everyone has that character
that very few people get recognition for.

780
00:59:11,867 --> 00:59:16,195
You know, they just, you know,
they live in quiet suffering.

781
00:59:16,279 --> 00:59:20,667
They're never going to get any
recognition. They're never...

782
00:59:20,750 --> 00:59:26,770
You know, right. I'm just here filling
space. I'm just another seat on the bus.

783
00:59:27,260 --> 00:59:31,959
Hmm. You know, you've been in so
many iconic films, franchises, Rocky,

784
00:59:32,042 --> 00:59:35,853
Rambo, The Expendables,
now Taylor Sheridan's Tulsa King.

785
00:59:35,936 --> 00:59:39,610
You were nominated for another
Oscar for Creed in 2016.

786
00:59:39,693 --> 00:59:42,752
What's your most
underappreciated performance,

787
00:59:42,836 --> 00:59:45,500
do you think that you're most proud of?

788
00:59:45,650 --> 00:59:51,875
Copland, for sure. because I had been
basically reduced to a lump of meat. Like,

789
00:59:51,958 --> 00:59:55,018
you're not that smart.
You're an action guy.

790
00:59:55,102 --> 00:59:59,917
And I have always looked at action
when it's done well as moderating

791
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:05,687
mythology we don't have scribes running
around and carving on stone tablets about

792
01:00:05,771 --> 01:00:11,244
the Hercules and so on and so forth.
So I decided to delve in that by accident

793
01:00:11,327 --> 01:00:16,943
because first blood I never imagined would
transition me into more physical life

794
01:00:17,027 --> 01:00:21,800
because I'm not I wasn't born
this physical specimen at all. And I.

795
01:00:21,900 --> 01:00:23,100
It just...

796
01:00:23,460 --> 01:00:30,216
It just became so frustrating that things
are slowing down. I was 50 years old.

797
01:00:30,299 --> 01:00:36,189
It was 1996. I thought I would like
to go into the arena of the guys,

798
01:00:36,272 --> 01:00:42,682
the top athletes, the top actors,
and see how we bounce off of one another.

799
01:00:42,765 --> 01:00:49,434
And it became that kind of challenge.
There was definitely a dichotomy between

800
01:00:49,517 --> 01:00:53,240
the serious actor
and that guy, meaning me.

801
01:00:53,460 --> 01:00:57,882
And I really welcomed it. I really did.
I did the whole thing for free because

802
01:00:57,965 --> 01:01:01,925
the experiment was well worth it.
You know, in our first conversation,

803
01:01:02,008 --> 01:01:06,141
you also talked about how no one would
return your calls in Hollywood for

804
01:01:06,224 --> 01:01:10,762
a period of years in the late 1990s when
things were pretty rough for you there.

805
01:01:10,845 --> 01:01:14,342
And this was a period when you
had movies that didn't do well.

806
01:01:14,426 --> 01:01:18,180
Judge Dredd, Daylight, Get Carter
Driven, Detox, Avenging Angelo.

807
01:01:23,460 --> 01:01:27,758
just as you were filming Cliffhanger.
The article quotes one prominent Hollywood

808
01:01:27,842 --> 01:01:30,223
agent, and I'm going
to quote here, who said,

809
01:01:30,306 --> 01:01:33,400
I think he's a diminishing asset.
With every film he does,

810
01:01:33,483 --> 01:01:36,660
he goes down a little further.
He's the new Burt Reynolds.

811
01:01:38,430 --> 01:01:41,970
And Cliffhanger then went
on to do really well. Yeah.

812
01:01:42,090 --> 01:01:46,644
And it seems like there were these number
of moments in your life when Hollywood

813
01:01:46,727 --> 01:01:50,818
was trying to write you off and you
kept having these comebacks. I mean,

814
01:01:50,901 --> 01:01:52,327
how did you deal with it?

815
01:01:52,410 --> 01:01:56,630
This thing of having to keep
proving yourself to this industry.

816
01:01:59,210 --> 01:02:05,057
Actually, I took it as somewhat
invigorating because now I had a purpose.

817
01:02:05,141 --> 01:02:10,990
It's one thing to sit there and be,
I guess, slowly, you know, you're...

818
01:02:11,250 --> 01:02:17,368
images diminishing right before you,
you're evaporating. But for some reason,

819
01:02:17,451 --> 01:02:20,350
I just said, this is a call to arms.

820
01:02:20,700 --> 01:02:26,211
And what am I going to go back to? I'm
going to write another Rocky at 60 years

821
01:02:26,294 --> 01:02:30,813
old. And it was just the most
ridiculous, like 60-year-old boxer,

822
01:02:30,897 --> 01:02:35,558
like a 120-year-old can-can dancer.
It just doesn't work, you know.

823
01:02:35,641 --> 01:02:41,223
It doesn't work. But I was able to get
out the portion of what people go through

824
01:02:41,306 --> 01:02:46,533
as they're going into their later years,
which is grief, the sense of loss.

825
01:02:46,617 --> 01:02:49,520
It had nothing to do with boxing anymore.

826
01:02:50,700 --> 01:02:50,917
Thank you.

827
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:56,361
I just felt like, God, this is the perfect
opportunity now. And, of course,

828
01:02:56,444 --> 01:03:01,380
it was rejected everywhere. I mean,
I had studio heads actually say,

829
01:03:02,370 --> 01:03:07,793
Rocky's done, and so are you, Sly.
You're done. Just go off fishing. Okay,

830
01:03:07,876 --> 01:03:11,588
I get it. And I go through
rewrites after rewrites.

831
01:03:11,671 --> 01:03:16,424
But I've always had this sense
that you have to go down swinging.

832
01:03:16,508 --> 01:03:20,963
How do you explain this period
of not so great films? I mean,

833
01:03:21,047 --> 01:03:24,237
did you know the films
were bad at the time?

834
01:03:24,321 --> 01:03:28,190
Was it a quality control issue?
Yeah, it really was.

835
01:03:32,370 --> 01:03:36,628
the components. So even though each
project had a great ability to be

836
01:03:36,711 --> 01:03:40,592
successful, I don't think I
really focused on the fine strokes,

837
01:03:40,675 --> 01:03:44,871
which is what art is made about.
In other words, the right director,

838
01:03:44,954 --> 01:03:48,457
the right this, the right co-star,
the right advertising,

839
01:03:48,540 --> 01:03:53,302
the right theme song. These are things
that I used to really apply myself to.

840
01:03:53,385 --> 01:03:55,210
And I suppose I just got lazy

841
01:04:02,370 --> 01:04:08,185
I mean, what it does to the soul of an
artistic person to make movies that aren't

842
01:04:08,268 --> 01:04:11,080
good. Oh, boy. It's... Thank you.

843
01:04:11,250 --> 01:04:13,190
It's a death in the family.

844
01:04:13,650 --> 01:04:19,723
Because it's not as though you
didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today.

845
01:04:19,807 --> 01:04:26,150
It's all over the world. And there
is a part of human nature that...

846
01:04:26,370 --> 01:04:27,690
revels in that.

847
01:04:28,110 --> 01:04:33,146
You know what I mean? And I don't
and again, I don't take it personally.

848
01:04:33,229 --> 01:04:38,052
I think that quite often human
nature says, OK, he's had enough time.

849
01:04:38,135 --> 01:04:43,313
Let's bring on the new generation.
OK, move over. Stop hogging the screen.

850
01:04:43,396 --> 01:04:48,076
So I get it. So it's when you reach
a certain age in this business,

851
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:53,350
it becomes a very, very, very competitive,
delicate and tenuous business.

852
01:04:53,910 --> 01:04:55,230
career.

853
01:04:55,320 --> 01:05:01,331
It doesn't take much to, well, boom.
So that's why I think it's a very neurotic

854
01:05:01,414 --> 01:05:06,268
business at times because
the product is you. It isn't like, oh,

855
01:05:06,351 --> 01:05:10,440
you rejected my leather jacket.
No, we don't like it.

856
01:05:10,860 --> 01:05:14,710
You. But I realized, I go,
you know, here you go again.

857
01:05:14,794 --> 01:05:19,350
You have to do it for yourself. You have
to go out there and find the firewood

858
01:05:19,433 --> 01:05:23,513
and start the fire. No one is going
to knock on the door and go, here,

859
01:05:23,596 --> 01:05:25,440
here's an Oscar winning script.

860
01:05:25,740 --> 01:05:29,524
Love you. No, it really did.
It helped me because, you know,

861
01:05:29,608 --> 01:05:33,392
when you finally hit bottom,
you have two choices. You know,

862
01:05:33,476 --> 01:05:37,389
you can't go any lower and you
just eventually stop breathing.

863
01:05:37,472 --> 01:05:40,806
And I've always said
the artist dies twice. You know,

864
01:05:40,889 --> 01:05:45,769
the second death is the easiest one
compared to the career death in which is,

865
01:05:45,853 --> 01:05:47,980
you know, you're being dismissed.

866
01:05:48,900 --> 01:05:54,120
But it just woke me up, and I
was so invigorated starting to write.

867
01:05:56,100 --> 01:06:03,100
The hardest and the proudest moment by far
in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody

868
01:06:03,593 --> 01:06:10,290
wanted it. I was done. When I say done,
I mean agent fire me, managers fire.

869
01:06:10,373 --> 01:06:16,891
I was done. I go, okay, this sounds
very familiar. Let's start over again.

870
01:06:16,974 --> 01:06:23,974
Let's see if you can do it in 60s. So it
was a fantastic voyage into the unknown.

871
01:06:26,100 --> 01:06:31,060
This sounds very familiar when you were
29 years old. Same thing. This is it.

872
01:06:31,830 --> 01:06:35,410
Listening to you talk
about this, can you...

873
01:06:35,700 --> 01:06:40,880
articulate your relationship then
to the character Rocky Balboa because

874
01:06:40,963 --> 01:06:43,537
that character has... saved

875
01:06:43,620 --> 01:06:50,620
your career launched your career.
Um, you are defined by it in many ways,

876
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:52,660
America is defined by it.

877
01:06:53,490 --> 01:06:57,630
Rocky is kind of like my imaginary...

878
01:06:58,470 --> 01:07:03,891
male role model. It's my father.
It's what I wish, you know,

879
01:07:03,975 --> 01:07:10,038
I could be so I when I created him,
I put every component in there,

880
01:07:10,121 --> 01:07:14,258
this self-effacement,
this kind of humbleness,

881
01:07:14,341 --> 01:07:20,955
the ability to also take loss,
how he's very philosophical about life is,

882
01:07:21,039 --> 01:07:22,690
is very difficult.

883
01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:30,710
because it just pours out of me.

884
01:07:31,230 --> 01:07:34,570
Really, it does. I mean,
writing other things,

885
01:07:34,654 --> 01:07:38,292
especially if you're
writing something like Rambo,

886
01:07:38,375 --> 01:07:42,013
which is very difficult
because he's monosyllabic.

887
01:07:42,096 --> 01:07:44,797
His lack of expression. Rocky's is...

888
01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,485
Everything he's thinking
comes out. You know,

889
01:07:47,568 --> 01:07:51,607
it's not about how hard you hit,
it's about how hard you can get hit.

890
01:07:51,691 --> 01:07:55,311
Like all these things that most
people would never talk about.

891
01:07:55,395 --> 01:07:58,747
So I found this to be like
a therapeutic beyond practice.

892
01:07:58,830 --> 01:08:03,044
Anything I've ever, like you asked,
you know, you go to therapy.

893
01:08:03,128 --> 01:08:08,081
That was my Sigmund Freud right there.
I have another question about Rambo.

894
01:08:08,164 --> 01:08:12,715
You know, as we had discussed,
the first movie was quite complicated.

895
01:08:12,798 --> 01:08:17,230
You know, this vet that was discarded
by his country who had PTSD.

896
01:08:18,570 --> 01:08:23,294
And you told this incredible story
about how the last scene comes about with

897
01:08:23,377 --> 01:08:25,970
the movie ending with him being arrested.

898
01:08:28,830 --> 01:08:33,412
over time, turns into this avatar,
right? This classic action movie hero,

899
01:08:33,495 --> 01:08:37,566
perhaps with a little less depth
than the original character had.

900
01:08:37,650 --> 01:08:40,270
You're absolutely right. That's my fault.

901
01:08:40,860 --> 01:08:47,502
It's my fault. This is where this kind
of vainglorious pomposity that like, now,

902
01:08:47,585 --> 01:08:51,201
if you're like that,
wait till you see this.

903
01:08:51,284 --> 01:08:57,842
And I didn't really focus on the depth
of what he was still going through while

904
01:08:57,926 --> 01:09:04,400
trying to save POWs. He's trying to save
his own soul. We never got into that.

905
01:09:04,483 --> 01:09:10,620
It's just like bravado, bravado,
bravado, bulletproof. And that's all me.

906
01:09:11,190 --> 01:09:16,889
That's all me. I mean, I that that was
a problem that this is when you you get

907
01:09:16,972 --> 01:09:20,892
really hung up on kind
of like clandestine narcissism.

908
01:09:20,975 --> 01:09:26,090
It works its way in there.
Then you realize how this is a lot easier.

909
01:09:26,460 --> 01:09:28,200
They show your soul.

910
01:09:28,440 --> 01:09:34,089
flexing your muscles, see what I mean?
And it was terrible, you know,

911
01:09:34,172 --> 01:09:36,000
it was like a cartoon.

912
01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:40,217
It came to define also this projection
of American power, you know,

913
01:09:40,300 --> 01:09:43,783
and I'm going to quote you
to you in an interview in 1985.

914
01:09:43,866 --> 01:09:48,088
When you were talking about your view
of war, your politics, you said,

915
01:09:48,171 --> 01:09:50,855
if you have the power
like the United States,

916
01:09:50,938 --> 01:09:53,991
if you're going to talk
tall and carry a big stick,

917
01:09:54,074 --> 01:09:58,440
eventually you've got to use it
or they'll think you're bluffing. Yeah.

918
01:09:58,740 --> 01:09:59,980
Does Rambo represent

919
01:10:01,030 --> 01:10:04,757
a part of like your worldview
at that point as well. It did.

920
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:09,516
It did. And now I realize all
war is futile. It's stupid.

921
01:10:09,599 --> 01:10:16,112
It's a mechanism to make tons of money
for the War Department and manufacturers

922
01:10:16,195 --> 01:10:20,620
and these kids just going
out there into a gristmill.

923
01:10:20,830 --> 01:10:25,191
Being chopped up and no. And then
when they come back with no arms. Oh,

924
01:10:25,274 --> 01:10:27,590
sorry. You're on your own. I hate it.

925
01:10:28,150 --> 01:10:33,750
I hate it and I'm bitterly
opposed to it. But at one time,

926
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:36,400
I was truly gung ho.

927
01:10:36,670 --> 01:10:42,510
Really gung-ho. And I don't know if I
was just trying to go against the current.

928
01:10:43,030 --> 01:10:50,030
In Hollywood, there's a certain dynamic,
as you know. But again, I admit it was,

929
01:10:50,377 --> 01:10:55,620
I think it was just naivete,
really, because I read a lot,

930
01:10:55,703 --> 01:11:01,130
especially after First Blood.
And I go, wow, this is brutal.

931
01:11:01,213 --> 01:11:05,070
This is horrible. There's no glory in war.

932
01:11:05,530 --> 01:11:06,363
Lung.

933
01:11:06,820 --> 01:11:09,980
When did you become anti-war?

934
01:11:23,110 --> 01:11:29,402
Destroy both sides. I mean, it really
creates this horrible history. And,

935
01:11:29,485 --> 01:11:31,877
you know, don't get over it.

936
01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:38,960
They just don't. Grudges are held
and countries are destroyed and lines are

937
01:11:41,183 --> 01:11:47,788
redrawn. For what, though? I know
you don't want to talk about politics,

938
01:11:47,872 --> 01:11:51,404
but I am interested
in something you just said,

939
01:11:51,487 --> 01:11:57,481
which is this idea of Hollywood being
liberal and you being seen as a political

940
01:11:57,565 --> 01:12:03,789
conservative. Did that put you at odds in
what was perceived as a liberal industry

941
01:12:03,873 --> 01:12:08,927
or is that perception actually wrong?
I mean, it is wrong because.

942
01:12:09,010 --> 01:12:14,469
I totally understand why the perception
is like indelible. When Rocky came out,

943
01:12:14,552 --> 01:12:19,380
I was so naive. I'd never even voted.
I was like pushing 30 years old.

944
01:12:19,463 --> 01:12:23,729
I had zero. I didn't even know
the difference between Democrat

945
01:12:23,812 --> 01:12:27,250
and Republican.
I functioned in another universe.

946
01:12:29,830 --> 01:12:34,625
When Rocky wrapped himself
in a flag and that sort of thing,

947
01:12:34,709 --> 01:12:40,480
and every movie we were up against
at that time in competition was very,

948
01:12:40,563 --> 01:12:46,579
very heavy, very political. I mean,
just the extremely erudite intellectual

949
01:12:46,662 --> 01:12:53,246
and Rocky was not that it was emotional.
And I think that's that right away put me

950
01:12:53,330 --> 01:12:57,070
over here. And then when
I did first blood, I,

951
01:12:57,220 --> 01:13:04,220
Again, I had no idea that there was such a
chasm between the left and the right and,

952
01:13:05,508 --> 01:13:12,430
you know, me, you know, being jingoistic.
He's a saber rattler. It was,

953
01:13:12,513 --> 01:13:18,251
again, naivete on my part.
But yes, it caused a major riff.

954
01:13:18,335 --> 01:13:22,367
And I wish it wasn't like that because...

955
01:13:22,450 --> 01:13:27,197
I really think a lot of these actors
have great empathy, great heart,

956
01:13:27,280 --> 01:13:31,257
and they're really more
for the working man kind of thing.

957
01:13:31,340 --> 01:13:35,387
They're just down in the trenches.
And that's where I live,

958
01:13:35,470 --> 01:13:39,937
you know what I mean? But I'm not
considered that. And sometimes,

959
01:13:40,020 --> 01:13:44,990
you know, you say things that you
don't realize the long-range effects.

960
01:13:47,050 --> 01:13:50,610
So you're currently in Tulsa King,
which is a Taylor Sheridan series.

961
01:13:52,450 --> 01:13:53,850
What's season? That's right.

962
01:13:54,250 --> 01:13:59,613
Um... At this point in your career, what
keeps bringing you back to the screen?

963
01:13:59,696 --> 01:14:03,971
I mean, this is no longer that you have
anything left to prove. This is now.

964
01:14:04,054 --> 01:14:07,182
It's not about proving.
Well, not proving, but this. No,

965
01:14:07,265 --> 01:14:11,050
but I know exactly what you mean.
Like, what do you have to prove?

966
01:14:12,010 --> 01:14:16,860
It's like a racehorse. You just
keep going until it falls down.

967
01:14:16,943 --> 01:14:21,871
It doesn't know how to walk.
It knows how to run. And it's like,

968
01:14:21,955 --> 01:14:28,058
it's almost like breathing. You know
what I mean? It's like I talked to Albert,

969
01:14:28,141 --> 01:14:30,490
you know, De Niro, these guys.

970
01:14:31,000 --> 01:14:34,720
This is the you are that animal.

971
01:14:34,900 --> 01:14:38,620
You cease to exist without this format.

972
01:14:38,710 --> 01:14:44,426
And it's just it's what gives you life.
You said something in our first interview

973
01:14:44,509 --> 01:14:47,504
that really caught my ear.
You said, quote,

974
01:14:47,587 --> 01:14:51,310
that you can see the light
at the end of the tunnel.

975
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:55,597
which I took to mean sort
of the end of, you know, your life.

976
01:14:55,681 --> 01:14:59,920
And I was wondering how you feel
about death and how you feel...

977
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:02,417
about that

978
01:15:02,500 --> 01:15:07,540
there is less time in front of you than
there is behind you. Yeah. In panic mode.

979
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,917
Really? Well, because that's
what I said before, you know,

980
01:15:12,000 --> 01:15:16,040
I built a castle with thousands
of stones made of regrets.

981
01:15:16,510 --> 01:15:19,816
And I'm trying to make up
for it in my own petty way.

982
01:15:19,899 --> 01:15:23,332
And I don't know if there's
enough time. And then I go,

983
01:15:23,416 --> 01:15:28,512
there is not enough time. What I have to
do is just focus on the ones that really

984
01:15:28,595 --> 01:15:33,371
need me and the ones that I want to go
on and have their own life and legacy

985
01:15:33,455 --> 01:15:34,288
and work.

986
01:15:34,750 --> 01:15:38,630
I'm at the point now, you know,
at 78, you're kind of like, chow.

987
01:15:38,714 --> 01:15:42,777
It's where the insurance company goes,
you know, that's the average.

988
01:15:42,860 --> 01:15:47,472
So I'm two years on borrowed time,
and I'm making up for it as much as I can.

989
01:15:47,556 --> 01:15:49,690
You're never too old to be in love.

990
01:15:50,020 --> 01:15:57,020
Never too old to dance with the great
memories that you've had and not wallow

991
01:15:57,308 --> 01:16:02,903
in the worst swamp of all,
which is the swamp of loneliness.

992
01:16:02,986 --> 01:16:05,920
That is truly premature burial.

993
01:16:08,180 --> 01:16:11,035
Well, thank you for the gift
of all those characters.

994
01:16:11,118 --> 01:16:14,638
And thank you for your time.
Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate it.

995
01:16:14,721 --> 01:16:16,440
I appreciate it. Keep punching.

996
01:16:20,020 --> 01:16:24,279
That's Sylvester Stallone. And a note, we
reached out to Devereaux for comment after

997
01:16:24,363 --> 01:16:28,415
this interview, and a spokesperson replied
that while they've not read the book,

998
01:16:28,498 --> 01:16:32,086
they respect Mr. Stallone's quote,
right to tell his story his own way,

999
01:16:32,169 --> 01:16:36,460
take his account seriously, and are sorry
for any trauma he remembers experiencing.

1000
01:16:50,020 --> 01:16:54,588
by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John
Woo, mixing by Sophia Landman.

1001
01:16:54,671 --> 01:16:57,850
Original music by Dan
Powell and Marion Lozano.

1002
01:16:57,934 --> 01:17:02,848
Photography by Philip Montgomery.
The rest of the team is Priya Matthew,

1003
01:17:02,932 --> 01:17:07,638
Wyatt Orme, Paola Newdorf, Joe Bill
Munoz, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemmel,

1004
01:17:07,722 --> 01:17:11,317
Gavi Contreras, Kathleen
O'Brien, and Brooke Minters.

1005
01:17:11,401 --> 01:17:16,260
Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
Next week, David interviews

1006
01:17:20,020 --> 01:17:21,720
interview from the New York Times.

1007
01:17:22,510 --> 01:17:23,343
you