WEBVTT

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I live on regrets. I can make a castle.

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Out of regrets.

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I'm Lulu Garcia Navarro, and today
I'm interviewing Sylvester Stallone.

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At 80 years old, the star of Rocky
is telling his own against all odds story

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in a new memoir, The Steps, an allusion
to one of Rocky's most iconic scenes.

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In the book, Stallone details an abusive
and tortured childhood and how that fueled

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his success in some of Hollywood's most
well-known franchises. It's over, Jenny.

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It's over. Nothing is over. Nothing.
What became clear in our conversation is

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that behind that tough guy
exterior he became famous for,

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there were deep struggles with his
emotions, his body and his family.

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It's a Sylvester Stallone you've
never seen before. I became bulimic.

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You didn't know that. OK, I didn't
hear first. But first, a quick message.

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If you're not a subscriber,
we have some news for you.

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your first month
in the New York Times app.

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Just download the app and we hope you
enjoy it. Okay, now on to the interview.

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It has been

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50 years. It's hard to believe, I'm sure.
Since the movie that started it all,

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Rocky, came out. You're now 80 years old,
which I'm sure is also hard to believe.

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It is.

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You know, in reading this memoir,
one of the things that struck me is that,

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you know, some of these memories
are quite painful for you.

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And you wrote in the book... that

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At difficult moments in your life,
you told yourself to, quote,

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put those memories away in a box
and avoid them, just move forward.

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What was it like to go back and revisit
some of these things for this book?

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You know, it was a mixed emotion.
There used to be some, like, you know,

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tears. There'd be some laughter.
There'd be some anger, bitterness.

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And then I thought, you know, maybe...

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In one way... That was the motivation to
do something extraordinary as opposed to,

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you know, just being very languid and,
oh, I had a nice relationship growing up,

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but I have no...

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angst inside of me, that fuel.
So I've always been on that cusp like,

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You know, the guy punched you
in your mouth, but did he do you a favor?

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Because now you go to the gym
and you become a tough guy. You know,

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some those things. I truly believe
that the parents are the mold makers.

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They're sculptors. They don't realize it.

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But they're sculptors, they're Rodin's,
and they're sculpting their masterpiece

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or their disaster. Yeah. I want to start,
actually, at the very beginning because...

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You came into the world, in many ways,
how you have inhabited it. Well,

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you know, with a lot of turmoil,
a lot of drama, it was a rough entry.

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Can you tell me about the day you were
born? Well, it was my mother really,

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she also came from a lot of turmoil.
And she really wasn't mother material.

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And she had grandiose plans for her life.

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Her pregnancy with me
was a big-time interruption.

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I don't think she wanted
to really believe it was happening,

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even though it was in the ninth month and
she was finally on a bus and she goes into

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labor and she says, I want
to have it here. It was bad.

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And then we just happened to be near
a medical center, you might call it,

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like a charity award. It's like
there weren't even doctors there.

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We were just mainly interns
and one doctor. And that's my...

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That's my first breath on earth.
Yeah. I mean, here in New York City,

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it was a bus right here. And the people
who delivered you used forceps and they

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partially paralyzed your face,
right? Could have been worse.

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Because sometimes you get brain damage
from it. Maybe that happened too.

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I don't know.

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It was a terrible thing growing
up because I slurred and I mumbled.

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It was like 10 times worse
than Rocky. It was rough.

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Did you see yourself back then as having
a disability when you were young? Yeah,

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it was. You're not aware of it.
Even if you have a lisp or a stutter,

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you're so familiar with it.

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But other people, you know, what?
What? Jesus, say anything.

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What language is that? Oh, God.

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you know,

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In the book, you seem to suggest that both
your parents saw your arrival as having

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ruined their ambitions
in some way. You wrote,

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can you really make people proud who
never wanted you in the first place?

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And when you were very little, you were
sent to go live in a boarding house.

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I mean, you were very little. Yeah.
And your parents only visited you once

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a month. I've got to say, this is,
by modern standards, pretty extreme stuff.

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And... You know, it's very clear that when
you were young, you never got the love,

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you never got the support, that most...

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children need. I mean, how did
you understand that as a kid?

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How did it make you feel? I don't know if
there was some preventative thing or some

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blockage of being kind of completely
abandoned or forlorn or whatever.

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I just was raised by strangers
in a boarding house,

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and it became sort
of a natural environment.

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And my parents really were
never nurturing. So this

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Compared to where I was living. I think...

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If you are emotionally
deprived when you're younger,

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you learn to lock things away, which
is why I started with that quote about you

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locking things away.
Do you think it made you like...

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Tough? In the wrong way,
yeah. It made me very tough.

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And I literally haven't figured out real,
real, real, real true love until,

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you know, like 70.
It really was, you know,

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because you have different
incarnations of love.

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You think this is it or this or that.
But to really have unequivocally like true

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love that I love for my wife and my kids,
I mean, that total abandonment,

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that reckless love that you would
jump into a volcano for them.

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late and that's a big pity it really is
because I was so consumed with not being

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another bum from the neighborhood I
was very very competitive like a pit bull

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Like it's just, that's what
got me going. It's not healthy.

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And I would have conversation with my wife
and my brother or anyone at the time about

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why I was so competitive.
It really was, it was, but then again.

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Made you who you are. Yeah.
And you've had quite a life.

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Your parents had this very hostile and...

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violent marriage in many ways. And they
divorced when you were about 11 years old.

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Is that right? Yeah, 10,
10 and a half, 11. Yeah. I mean,

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what do you remember
about that separation?

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And how did they decide to split you
and your brother up? It was traumatic.

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I'm not sure about how my brother reacted.
But when she goes, I'm leaving,

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I won't be living here anymore. And I go,
where are you going? Because I'm just,

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I remember... holding onto her leg.

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And like being literally dragged
to the, yeah, it was like,

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you know what I mean?
Like, hey, mom, come back.

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And this point you guys were
all living together. Yeah,

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and she pulled the leg away,
out the door, and that was it.

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And my brother came home
a little bit after that,

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and there was nobody there. You know,
I guess my father took me to the shop

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or something, so he was abandoned,
and he never got over that.

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Ever.

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That scene, I'm so sorry, I just want
to linger on it, of just you holding...

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It was rough. I'm telling you, it was one
of those things where your legs buckle,

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you drop down, you grab around like a leg.

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Try to tackle her.

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What was going on? I don't know,
because she never was a loving person.

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I know I'm not alone in this,
that there's a connection.

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At birth, that some people have
that's so palpable that no matter what,

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you cannot break away from this ability
or need to have this person's attention.

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It's like electric and then being
deprived and put into the dark.

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It's a terrible syndrome.
It really is. It's 100% true.

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You can never get rid of the
connection to your parents.

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So is that blood thicker than water?
I used to say, no, it's just stickier.

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But it is thicker. I mean, there's
something there that is quite painful.

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It really is.

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You go to Maryland and you end up
living with your dad. He loved horses.

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He played polo. But what was it
like living alone with your dad?

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Because we've talked a little
bit about your mom, but that –

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didn't sound like a great time
either. It would be, I guess,

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these constant bombastic explosions,
and then total silence.

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Because if he were talking,
and then he said, you know,

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I don't know if I agree with that.
He starts spinning his fork,

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and suck his teeth, and you knew what was

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big hands you just learn to duck a little
bit but there are sometimes i'll never

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forget um you know i don't know this poor
slide but all right no i really i didn't

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put a lot of stuff in the book because
i didn't want a pity party but it was it

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was insane for example it's church

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Before we go to church, go to the store,
which is a block way by, some bread.

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Okay, I go down there. I see a couple
of my friends. Oh, I got to get back.

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And I bring home sandwich spread.

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Nut bread. Oh. And he kicked me in the
stomach and hit me and like laid me out,

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got in the car and went to church.

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I'm there in the street, Thai,
this kind of thing, with mayonnaise.

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It really is. It's unbelievable.

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It's unbelievable.

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Did you...

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Ever fight back?

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This is going to sound very, I guess,
Greek tragedy kind of thing. Like...

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When I was...

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say 43, 44. And he was 25 years
older than me. He goes, Hey, you know,

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you're doing this, you're doing that.
Is there anything left in your life

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that you'd like to do? I said,
I wish you and I could be the same age.

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Three minutes.

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And he goes, "Well," I said, "Because
I'd like to give you some of your own

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medicine, and you would know what
it'd be like to have your ass kicked."

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takes off his jacket. He goes,
don't wait. Let's bring it on right now.

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This is on Sunset Boulevard.
Pull the car over. You don't have to wait.

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Come on. He was ready
to go at 68 years old.

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Hmm. That's so when people go, where
do you get the ferocity to play Rambo?

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Kinetic.

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I mean, I.

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Your dad was not only abusive, but he was
competitive with you. Oh, yeah. I mean,

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he often tried to one up you,
sort of humiliate you.

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You talk about what you've
just discussed, you know,

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him beating you up in front
of church. But also, you know,

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you became a very good polo player
and at a polo match in front of everyone,

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he dragged you off. the horse
and beat you up in front of everyone.

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Why do you think he was that way with you?
I don't know. You never asked him?

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I don't know. You know,
you keep on what his father was like.

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His father was a very stoic barber with
a mustache. You know, they say like a...

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fly sitting on a

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pun of cow shit, thinks himself
a king. So he was like, yeah,

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so I'm the king of the street.
And so he had this sort of imperiousness.

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And I think he was cold as hell. So
my father was very, very cold and tough.

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For example, there was a cat just
making noise outside the house.

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He went inside and went out, got the cat,

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you. shot it. It left it in the wash tub.
Now, I think he did that

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To impress me like, holy, you'll never
be as tough as your old man. And I won't.

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There is no chance. That's a whole
other leak. It's funny, though.

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You keep on using the word tough.
Yeah. And I don't hear tough.

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I hear messed up. You know, you're right.
Because I'm using tough as a masculine

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banner for something much more perverse
and weird. And dark. Dark. Oh, yeah,

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yeah. With all that drama
and all that violence,

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was there any love between you two?
Did you feel any love?

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Only on his deathbed. That's about it.
I never, you know, it's so weird.

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My mother never, and my brother
will attest, hugged me, ever, ever.

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There was never like, oh, hold you to the
breast kind of thing. Kissing, forget it.

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Like nothing. It was always an air
thing. And my father wasn't, well,

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he wasn't any better at all,
but I'll never forget. We were,

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I was maybe nine years old and I

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He would always have me, like,
take care of his horses, feed his horses,

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but never ride his horses.
And so we were coming back from the barn.

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He's driving, and...

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I kind of fell asleep. So he put my head
on his knee and his hand on my head.

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I never got over that.
That was the epitome of...

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I went, wow, that's what it feels like.

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Oh. You know what I mean?
I do. It's like, wow. Wow.

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Like, you know, just a simple stroking
of your child's hair. But that was it.

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It was one and done.
So much so that you remember it.

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You know, you went to many different
schools during this period. I did.

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Thank you.

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One of the ones that you talk about
is for kids that need a discipline.

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You got sent to sort of reform school,
it sounds like. Devereaux. Yeah. And...

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Bye.

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You talk about being put
in a psych ward, right?

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And I have to tell you that This was...

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one of the most chilling
things that I have read.

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Can you tell me that story
and why you included it?

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You know, as an adult, I saw
one floor of the cuckoo's nest,

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and it looked like a bunch of, like...

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They were kind of eccentric old guys.
You know what I mean? Mm-hmm. No.

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At this school, there
were five different...

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departments for different ages.
And in my age, it'd be like the teenagers.

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If you ever snuck out to see
a girl or do something like that,

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you'd be reprimanded by taking to taking
to a place called Park Lodge or the snake

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pit. which on the outside looked like
a Tudor-type big old Tudor home from

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the 20s. And then you walked inside
and you now entered the house.

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The heart of insanity,
the smell, the filth,

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people running around naked
and clawing, hands tied, drooling.

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And this is what they thought would
impress you never to break the rules

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again. And then they marched
me and I mean, they're clawing.

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And this is called the lifers,
where these people,

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there's no going home ever. Everyone
had straps that be tied down at night.

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The windows were covered
with bars or grills.

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And they took me.

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to a cell and it was a padded cell
and I'll never forget it was that high.

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So you could never get off your knees.
And inside, I'd look up right here and...

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you'd have these elements like
dust constantly falling down,

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and you see the real,
it's been clawed at and clawed at.

00:17:43.030 --> 00:17:47.564
by the predecessors of this
particular dungeon in Clawde.

00:17:47.647 --> 00:17:52.607
And they left you how long?
I was there for a couple of weeks.

00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:54.530
It was wild.

00:17:55.660 --> 00:18:00.347
This, to me, is a good thing. was one
of the better things that happened too.

00:18:00.430 --> 00:18:04.796
I said, I know they're going to try
to break me. I was attacked there.

00:18:04.879 --> 00:18:07.973
They always tried to rip
my groin off. It was bad.

00:18:08.057 --> 00:18:12.677
What do you mean tried to break your
groin? Like they assaulted you? Yeah,

00:18:12.760 --> 00:18:15.918
they were a guy named Jay Bird.
He was a, actually,

00:18:16.001 --> 00:18:20.367
he was the son of an actor named
Lloyd Nolan. And he was put in there.

00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:25.197
He was big, had no hair, always naked,
just rotten teeth. Because, you know,

00:18:25.281 --> 00:18:27.950
I never brushed teeth. And he made sounds.

00:18:30.430 --> 00:18:36.991
It is a jaybird. And I go into
the bathroom on the way to food mess hall,

00:18:37.074 --> 00:18:41.170
which is really just
a bunch of troughs. And.

00:18:41.470 --> 00:18:46.327
And I'm there and he comes in,
this fucking smelly bear comes around me

00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:51.754
and he's like ripping my throat and he's
going into my pants and he's grabbing

00:18:51.837 --> 00:18:56.973
my groin. And I luckily, you know,
got around to do this stuff in the face.

00:18:57.056 --> 00:19:02.121
And then the two guards come in and
beating the crap out of him with razor

00:19:02.205 --> 00:19:06.310
straps. And I go, so I go,
what the hell is wrong with him?

00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:08.160
You're in a crazier house, boy.

00:19:09.610 --> 00:19:14.873
Nothing's wrong with him. He's crazy.
That kind of thing. And I went, wow.

00:19:14.957 --> 00:19:19.209
So let me just get to the point.
I won't be labored anymore.

00:19:19.292 --> 00:19:24.917
I felt when I came out of there and I
was standing before the school president,

00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.891
I mean, the principal,
because you learned your lesson.

00:19:28.974 --> 00:19:34.610
I learned a lot more than that lesson,
much better lesson. You can't break me.

00:19:35.050 --> 00:19:36.940
Thank you. You can't break me.

00:19:37.300 --> 00:19:42.425
So when I got to the city
and everything that came after that,

00:19:42.508 --> 00:19:44.837
I always felt I was perfect.

00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:49.132
unbreakable in that in that way my heart
could be broken all that kind of stuff

00:19:49.216 --> 00:19:52.750
like every human being
but i'm talking about will Hm.

00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:54.380
you end up

00:19:55.540 --> 00:19:59.937
showing up here in New
York City in your 20s. Yeah.

00:20:00.020 --> 00:20:01.380
And...

00:20:01.880 --> 00:20:06.200
You have dropped out of college at this
point. You have backpacked around Europe.

00:20:07.340 --> 00:20:10.879
And you have no money. Right.
And you have a dream, though,

00:20:10.963 --> 00:20:16.037
that you want to become an actor. And you
take a job as an usher at a movie theater.

00:20:16.120 --> 00:20:19.620
Yeah. And I have to say this
was so interesting because –

00:20:20.450 --> 00:20:23.244
What comes through is what
an obsessive you became.

00:20:23.327 --> 00:20:26.460
You start writing down dialogue
from your favorite films.

00:20:26.543 --> 00:20:31.086
What were you trying to do there? What was
going on? I was really trying to learn.

00:20:31.169 --> 00:20:35.154
I should... You know, I'm non-existent.
I put on this monkey suit,

00:20:35.237 --> 00:20:40.280
and people don't even see you. But you're
in really a temple of wisdom in cinema.

00:20:40.363 --> 00:20:44.710
You can see what the audience reacts to,
where they laugh, they don't,

00:20:44.793 --> 00:20:49.266
who gets up, why do they get up.
You listen to them talk about the film,

00:20:49.349 --> 00:20:54.075
and every day was different. And then
I started to record it, write it down.

00:20:54.159 --> 00:20:58.442
And I lived literally in a film
with like a cell. It was a very tiny,

00:20:58.525 --> 00:21:00.740
like maybe eight-by-nine-foot room.

00:21:01.820 --> 00:21:06.736
On my bed, that's all we had. And I'd
have these old record albums of Traffic

00:21:06.819 --> 00:21:09.982
and Blood, Sweat, and Tears,
and that was my desk.

00:21:10.066 --> 00:21:15.260
And I would just translate notes and notes
and notes. And sometimes I'd go, ooh.

00:21:15.740 --> 00:21:17.060
What if this is it, son?

00:21:17.630 --> 00:21:22.064
You're sitting in the middle of a bed
like a fool doing something that sounds so

00:21:22.148 --> 00:21:23.390
stupid to anyone else.

00:21:24.200 --> 00:21:27.240
What are you,
just postponing the inevitable?

00:21:31.420 --> 00:21:32.840
Then that fear would come.

00:21:34.740 --> 00:21:40.301
It's like the thing in the psych ward.
I'm not going to be. No, don't go there.

00:21:40.384 --> 00:21:44.600
Take the fear. Swallow it and move on.
Yeah, I mean, you...

00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:48.916
You had an apartment where
there were blacked out windows,

00:21:48.999 --> 00:21:52.452
where you would write scripts
for days on end. I mean,

00:21:52.536 --> 00:21:57.037
it's just this absolutely kind
of manic intensity. And in this period,

00:21:57.121 --> 00:22:01.164
you were also getting into
altercations, you were living rough,

00:22:01.247 --> 00:22:05.945
but you were also spending your days
not only writing, but going to MoMA.

00:22:06.029 --> 00:22:06.880
All the time.

00:22:08.030 --> 00:22:12.709
You had this deep appreciation for art.
How did you understand these two sides

00:22:12.792 --> 00:22:17.277
of yourself? I don't know. It just
seems like if you're open, really open,

00:22:17.360 --> 00:22:22.149
two different experiences. I just go
on by this place and I look in there and

00:22:22.232 --> 00:22:25.250
for some reason I go,
wow, the energy of the art.

00:22:25.333 --> 00:22:30.565
And you're looking at Le Gé and all these
incredible drawings and Monades and Starry

00:22:30.648 --> 00:22:35.311
Knights. I'm going, what makes them
so special? I could do that. Then I go,

00:22:35.394 --> 00:22:36.280
no, you can't.

00:22:36.620 --> 00:22:42.294
Look at it closer. Look at it closer.
And it just started to invigorate me.

00:22:42.377 --> 00:22:46.439
And then I developed this
unbelievable thirst for art,

00:22:46.522 --> 00:22:50.360
which is to this very day.
And I started to paint.

00:22:50.600 --> 00:22:54.734
And I went there so many times, I didn't
pay anymore. I just knew everybody,

00:22:54.818 --> 00:22:57.398
like, come on in, you know,
get out of the cold.

00:22:57.481 --> 00:23:00.700
It's almost as if you're going
to the church of the brain.

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:05.420
You know, you're the most wisdom
in the world. It's right here.

00:23:05.504 --> 00:23:10.426
And if you were walking around like a fog,
what am I going to do with my life?

00:23:10.510 --> 00:23:11.337
Go in there.

00:23:11.420 --> 00:23:15.502
You might find something that will give
you a little spark and interest that gets

00:23:15.585 --> 00:23:18.947
you going in that direction because
you're going in that direction.

00:23:19.030 --> 00:23:22.958
You wrote in the book, at my core, there
is this simmering cauldron of emotion

00:23:23.041 --> 00:23:27.277
that can overflow with volatility, but it
can also be directed towards deep artistic

00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:33.507
relationships. purpose. And I was thinking
about that, those two sides of you, the

00:23:33.590 --> 00:23:35.427
I'm going to... Thank you.

00:23:35.510 --> 00:23:40.131
hit you if you hit me, but I'm also going
to go to MoMA and I'm also going to sit

00:23:40.214 --> 00:23:43.034
there and pray at the
Cathedral of Cinema. I mean,

00:23:43.117 --> 00:23:47.099
do you think you ever learned how
to control that cauldron? It's very,

00:23:47.183 --> 00:23:49.970
very explosive. I mean,
I'll tell you the truth.

00:23:51.710 --> 00:23:56.407
Sometimes in certain moments, like
in cinema, even as an adult, I'm going,

00:23:56.490 --> 00:24:00.218
like, at the end of First Blood
is a big nervous breakdown.

00:24:00.301 --> 00:24:04.805
And it wasn't written that way.
You know, I hadn't written it that way,

00:24:04.888 --> 00:24:08.547
but it came out. I said,
this is coming from that moment.

00:24:08.630 --> 00:24:14.987
cauldron. And it's a self indignation
of being run down, dismissed.

00:24:15.071 --> 00:24:20.550
That's the way I felt.
The worst thing you can say to me,

00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.728
The worst, you call me ugly,
call me this, call me short,

00:24:24.811 --> 00:24:30.469
don't call me stupid. Because that is what
my father used to say. And literally,

00:24:30.553 --> 00:24:34.500
it would turn me into a maniac
to prove I'm not stupid.

00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:38.107
And I would just work and work and work.
For example, this morning,

00:24:38.191 --> 00:24:41.641
I'm 80 years old. I'm up at five
in the morning studying my dialogue.

00:24:41.780 --> 00:24:43.760
that I don't have to do for a month.

00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:51.000
That kind of thing. You know, it's funny
that you mention that scene in Rambo,

00:24:51.504 --> 00:24:58.504
which is just an iconic scene. I was just
watching it again yesterday. Yeah.

00:24:58.816 --> 00:25:00.740
And nobody went out.

00:25:00.890 --> 00:25:07.890
I want to go home, Johnny. I want to drive
my Chevy. I can't find your fucking legs.

00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:15.980
You are just filled
with rage and grief. Yeah.

00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:20.560
And it just translates
viscerally onto the screen.

00:25:22.010 --> 00:25:25.370
It wasn't written that way,
though. You just...

00:25:25.490 --> 00:25:31.130
Were tapping into that cauldron?
Yeah. I started...

00:25:31.310 --> 00:25:32.190
It was...

00:25:32.510 --> 00:25:37.984
The way it was written is I'm supposed
to commit suicide in a very cool manner.

00:25:38.067 --> 00:25:42.710
I said, no, wait a minute.
There's thousands and thousands of men.

00:25:43.010 --> 00:25:47.504
missing parts of their bodies that
literally actually thought they were doing

00:25:47.588 --> 00:25:52.261
something worthwhile. They were following
the rules and orders of their country.

00:25:52.344 --> 00:25:55.768
Then when they come back,
they're looked at as aberrations,

00:25:55.852 --> 00:26:00.703
Frankenstein's monsters. Then I started to
identify that's what I felt like growing

00:26:00.786 --> 00:26:04.710
up kind of a thing. And this kind
of rage that they must feel that

00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:09.522
It's not their parents.
It's their country that is scoring them.

00:26:09.606 --> 00:26:14.811
They're real parents. The ones they
literally lost blood and friends and died

00:26:14.894 --> 00:26:17.667
for and were mutilated. You can't say it.

00:26:17.750 --> 00:26:23.549
Nice try. Thank you. Nothing. So
this kind of and I really identified with

00:26:23.633 --> 00:26:27.210
this dismissive attitude
that I grew up with.

00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:34.040
All the time. And boy, when I look
at that footage, I look distorted.

00:26:34.250 --> 00:26:38.150
I mean, it was the eyes. I mean, I was...

00:26:38.330 --> 00:26:42.258
gone for a few seconds.
And you're lucky enough,

00:26:42.341 --> 00:26:48.190
sometimes in acting or painting
or writing or anything, where you just

00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.969
So subliminally lose yourself.
You do not know where you are. You know,

00:26:53.053 --> 00:26:58.037
people say, oh, maybe it happens in sex
for two seconds where you're literally

00:26:58.120 --> 00:27:02.611
blanked out. What was that?
You know, kind of a thing. Well,

00:27:02.694 --> 00:27:07.580
when you have that moment
in acting where Is it over?

00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:11.980
Was it one take? One take. Wow.

00:27:14.840 --> 00:27:19.345
Just to just to come back to this period
that you were in your apartment with

00:27:19.429 --> 00:27:23.219
the blacked out windows and you're
trying to make it as an actor.

00:27:23.302 --> 00:27:27.688
You get a lot of rejections because
of the way you look and you write Rocky

00:27:27.772 --> 00:27:31.383
for yourself. And the studios
are very excited for the script.

00:27:31.466 --> 00:27:35.972
And it's well known the story that the
studio ended up trying to pay you more

00:27:36.055 --> 00:27:39.607
and more money not to be in the film.
They wanted James Caan.

00:27:39.690 --> 00:27:41.180
They wanted Ryan O'Neill.

00:27:44.840 --> 00:27:51.650
had this sense that This was like
your last chance? This was it. I was done.

00:27:52.490 --> 00:27:59.064
I had less than $100, $106 in the bank,
and there was something,

00:27:59.148 --> 00:28:04.994
and I don't know if it's spiritual,
but I said, God, man,

00:28:05.077 --> 00:28:11.021
I know in my heart that God. I will
regret this for the rest of my life,

00:28:11.104 --> 00:28:16.323
and I will be more of a broken man than if
I had never done this in the first place.

00:28:16.406 --> 00:28:21.183
And I don't know why I knew, because I
had no success. You know, I was green,

00:28:21.267 --> 00:28:25.034
really green. And they had every
right not to want to use me.

00:28:25.117 --> 00:28:29.957
If someone came in to me and did the same
thing and looked like me and slurred

00:28:30.041 --> 00:28:32.247
and all that, I'd go, come on, man.

00:28:32.330 --> 00:28:38.874
You're not acceptable to a lot
of different people in this country.

00:28:38.958 --> 00:28:45.958
But I don't know why. I just knew that
this is the crossroad. This is the bridge.

00:28:48.800 --> 00:28:53.208
Don't cross it, man. Then jump off it.
Because I'm not going to have someone else

00:28:53.292 --> 00:28:56.120
do it. Because I know I
hate myself. I kill myself.

00:28:57.660 --> 00:29:00.651
Emotionally, that is.
No, I get it. I get it.

00:29:00.734 --> 00:29:04.955
Can I ask you just about this thing
that happened during Rocky?

00:29:05.039 --> 00:29:07.840
This is your big break. Yeah. You have...

00:29:07.940 --> 00:29:12.360
sacrificed everything for it. They give
you the part. Yeah. You're a nobody...

00:29:12.470 --> 00:29:13.827
This is...

00:29:13.910 --> 00:29:20.631
Everything's riding on the movie. And you
cast your dad as the timekeeper who rings

00:29:20.715 --> 00:29:26.944
the bell in the climactic boxing match.
This is what the whole movie is going

00:29:27.028 --> 00:29:33.503
towards. And you bring in someone with
whom you've had this incredibly difficult

00:29:33.586 --> 00:29:37.790
relationship. And it's
turned into a mess. I mean...

00:29:37.910 --> 00:29:38.743
All right.

00:29:39.380 --> 00:29:42.206
Why did you let him back in?
I was just like,

00:29:42.290 --> 00:29:46.345
I just want you to love me
for a little bit. A little bit. Like,

00:29:46.428 --> 00:29:51.582
look what I did. Share it with me. I know
you thought I was a fool my whole life,

00:29:51.665 --> 00:29:52.700
but here we are.

00:29:53.510 --> 00:29:58.240
This is not a joke. And he didn't ring
the bell properly and I kept fighting

00:29:58.323 --> 00:29:59.917
and fighting and fighting.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:05.160
You know, when everything's choreographed,
it's a one, two, three, four bell bell.

00:30:05.430 --> 00:30:10.590
Not six, seven, eight, nine, ten.
So Carl Weathers is like, what's going on?

00:30:10.770 --> 00:30:15.943
Like you're throwing punches and you're
trying to ad lib and then it looks really

00:30:16.027 --> 00:30:19.837
fake. You know what I mean?
I could ring the bell, you know,

00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.536
whoever yelled at me and it
became like, I said, oh, God,

00:30:23.619 --> 00:30:28.922
a really bad Italian trauma. And of course
it ended up in an altercation by the end

00:30:29.006 --> 00:30:33.530
of the round, you know, it was,
you got really nasty. But for a moment,

00:30:33.613 --> 00:30:35.690
I thought, Jesus, he'd be proud.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.380
And later you end up inviting
your mom to the Oscars. Yeah.

00:30:40.080 --> 00:30:46.740
For Rocky. So then you call
her up and you say, hey, I...

00:30:47.370 --> 00:30:53.080
This film... I'm... Might win an Oscar
for it. Who's in it? I can't admit it.

00:30:53.163 --> 00:30:58.450
And she blows you off. Yeah. Can I ask
you about your mom specifically because

00:30:59.580 --> 00:31:02.100
As we've discussed here,
she was difficult.

00:31:03.560 --> 00:31:07.420
This is putting it lightly. You're
quite scathing about her in the book.

00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.437
And then in the 1990s,
she becomes like a celebrity psychic.

00:31:12.520 --> 00:31:15.564
I'm Jackie Stallone,
psychic astrologer to the stars.

00:31:15.647 --> 00:31:19.930
I have predicted fame and fortune
for movie stars and celebrities all over

00:31:20.013 --> 00:31:21.960
the world. And I just wondered...

00:31:22.380 --> 00:31:27.743
To jump a little later into your life
and your relationship with your parents,

00:31:27.827 --> 00:31:32.220
how did you manage the dynamics
when – you know, she...

00:31:32.790 --> 00:31:37.015
sees proximity to your fame
as a financial opportunity. I mean,

00:31:37.098 --> 00:31:40.092
that must have been
a hard dynamic to manage.

00:31:40.175 --> 00:31:45.030
It was very hard because she had
been married three more times and then

00:31:45.180 --> 00:31:47.130
I saw her... Thank you.

00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:54.140
posing as a psychic with a turban
and rhinestones and this

00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.817
over-inflated sense of like buffoonery.

00:31:57.900 --> 00:32:03.039
Or she would go on Howard Stern and mock
my father and call him terrible things.

00:32:03.122 --> 00:32:07.804
And then they'd get on the phone.
And I had my father and mother fighting

00:32:07.887 --> 00:32:09.727
on Howard Stern. I'm going...

00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:12.935
What other guy has to go through this?
Yeah, this is 1992.

00:32:13.018 --> 00:32:17.027
They had this horrible on-air argument.
But you two produced a movie star.

00:32:17.111 --> 00:32:20.456
Let's say you guys did produce
a movie star. No help from him.

00:32:20.540 --> 00:32:24.826
Any guy could have done the job in three
seconds. He didn't even want the best.

00:32:24.909 --> 00:32:28.476
He tried to get me to have an abortion.
Really? It's unbelievable.

00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.126
Why would you go on and humiliate
yourself? You're humiliating me.

00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:35.721
My children. Stop. I'll pay you
anything to do whatever you want.

00:32:35.805 --> 00:32:37.630
The finest restaurants. Anything.

00:32:39.810 --> 00:32:44.006
Try to be proud. He goes, why aren't
you proud of me? I went, there it is.

00:32:44.089 --> 00:32:47.790
I'll never forget. I asked,
I said, have you ever done anything?

00:32:48.420 --> 00:32:51.600
Well... I mean, do you
have any regrets? Yes.

00:32:51.930 --> 00:32:52.763
No!

00:32:53.670 --> 00:32:55.730
Why? I went, wow.

00:32:56.340 --> 00:33:01.117
I live on regrets. I can make
a castle out of regrets. I mean,

00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:05.120
when people say I have no
regrets, I go, bullshit.

00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:08.977
Come on. Really? You're that perfect?
Everything was just...

00:33:09.060 --> 00:33:14.197
Right. And that's just the way
it was to the day she died.

00:33:14.280 --> 00:33:18.780
And the last effort
at the Oscars, I thought, wow.

00:33:19.530 --> 00:33:22.201
Ten months earlier,
I was basically homeless.

00:33:22.284 --> 00:33:26.423
Now we're with incredible competition,
and you don't want to go. See,

00:33:26.507 --> 00:33:31.013
here it is. I'll put it in a nutshell.
He never wanted to be alone with me,

00:33:31.097 --> 00:33:31.837
ever. Ever.

00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:38.069
And she didn't go. And she stuck to her
guns. And it really hurt me hard. I see.

00:33:38.152 --> 00:33:40.100
I won't go there anymore.

00:33:40.620 --> 00:33:45.414
You know, that kind of,
but it does affect you. My wife,

00:33:45.498 --> 00:33:49.857
I know it's hard to get over it.
It's very nagging.

00:33:49.940 --> 00:33:56.560
It's a nagging scar that won't fully
close. And every now and then it weeps.

00:33:58.340 --> 00:34:00.600
But again, that's your cross to bear.

00:34:01.050 --> 00:34:06.310
Maybe that's why you had this
certain sort of selective rage.

00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:11.557
Did you go to therapy later in your life?
No. I said, it's not going to help.

00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:14.680
It's just not going to help because...

00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:22.360
It doesn't go away. You cover all this
subterfuge and ideology and intellectual

00:34:22.798 --> 00:34:27.600
this and that and breathing
and meditation until...

00:34:27.930 --> 00:34:29.690
That moment, late at night.

00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:36.214
And you're right back. And now you're
in an anxiety. You ever have anxiety?

00:34:36.297 --> 00:34:42.032
Oh, yeah. All that anxiety everyone has,
it's coming from something that's so

00:34:42.116 --> 00:34:46.491
deep-rooted. Tell me about
when you first suffered anxiety.

00:34:46.574 --> 00:34:52.090
It was the first time I did is when
I was 36. And I was watching dailies.

00:34:54.450 --> 00:34:57.944
All of a sudden, I stood up
and the hair on my neck went up.

00:34:58.027 --> 00:35:02.117
I started getting hot. I go, I'm dying.
This is it. I'm on my way out.

00:35:02.200 --> 00:35:08.630
Heart banged down. I went. took a knee,
crawled, rolled over, and then

00:35:08.970 --> 00:35:11.430
Not only is dark like movie theater.

00:35:12.450 --> 00:35:15.773
I'm like, where the fuck
is this coming from?

00:35:15.856 --> 00:35:21.676
And then it happened again and again
and again. They went away for five years.

00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.353
And then it always seems to happen
as you're ready to go on the Today Show.

00:35:27.436 --> 00:35:28.950
Boom, eight seconds.

00:35:29.370 --> 00:35:34.271
And you feel it coming on.
Anybody got Xanax? It's too late.

00:35:34.355 --> 00:35:40.668
So you're just sitting there holding
your chair going, I feel for it. I mean,

00:35:40.752 --> 00:35:45.154
it's not a joke. No.
You know, anxiety. It's like, no.

00:35:45.238 --> 00:35:49.890
I think people would find it
very heartening that you...

00:35:50.040 --> 00:35:56.700
have experienced that. Oh, my God.
Especially as I got older and

00:35:56.820 --> 00:36:01.785
It was weird. When I'm in a crowd,
I'd be with my wife at an ARC expedition,

00:36:01.869 --> 00:36:06.120
and the room is filling up.
It's getting more and more and more.

00:36:06.240 --> 00:36:09.240
And then I go, I'm going, I'm going down.

00:36:09.420 --> 00:36:12.466
I figured, let's get out
of here. And literally,

00:36:12.550 --> 00:36:17.161
I'd just make it to the alley. Boom,
get down on one knee. Did it again,

00:36:17.244 --> 00:36:21.660
and I was at the mayor's office
of Philadelphia receiving some award,

00:36:21.743 --> 00:36:26.094
and everyone sort of crowded me
in the corner. I said, I have to go.

00:36:26.177 --> 00:36:30.528
Thank you very much. And I just
made it out of there. And I go, hmm,

00:36:30.611 --> 00:36:34.244
what is that indicative of?
It never bothered you before.

00:36:34.327 --> 00:36:36.727
So there's something still happening.

00:36:36.810 --> 00:36:38.730
bubbling inside, festering.

00:36:40.110 --> 00:36:45.399
It's a marvel, for example, that we still
have magma and lava four billion years

00:36:45.482 --> 00:36:50.703
later in the center of the earth. How
long does it take to cool an egg? I mean,

00:36:50.787 --> 00:36:55.890
my God. So the same thing, our emotions
are always on the verge of eruption.

00:36:57.970 --> 00:36:59.790
Despite having such a

00:37:01.140 --> 00:37:04.500
I don't even know the word anymore.

00:37:05.250 --> 00:37:09.685
Upsetting. upbringing.
You've become a father of five.

00:37:09.769 --> 00:37:12.844
What did you learn about
being a good parent,

00:37:12.927 --> 00:37:17.317
considering you didn't really
at all have role models for that?

00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.707
I really wasn't a very good
parent. My wife, Jennifer,

00:37:21.790 --> 00:37:26.015
is the greatest woman ever
before. I mean, seriously,

00:37:26.099 --> 00:37:32.844
she's just like my guardian angel. I would
have been dead like three times for real.

00:37:32.927 --> 00:37:39.185
And she just is the most giving. I don't
have that gear of just abandonment of

00:37:39.268 --> 00:37:42.457
your own personal self for someone else.

00:37:42.540 --> 00:37:46.912
It's really unbelievable.
And she raised my daughters that way.

00:37:46.995 --> 00:37:50.460
In my first marriage,
it wasn't like that. And...

00:37:50.580 --> 00:37:56.557
I was in my warrior mode. I was like,
oh, let's conquer the world. You know,

00:37:56.640 --> 00:38:02.557
this is your moment. And everything
fell by the wayside. And it was just...

00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:07.740
Measly manner of existence.
It really was. It was...

00:38:08.490 --> 00:38:10.730
The reality was the movie set.

00:38:11.580 --> 00:38:15.000
The surreal world was my life.

00:38:15.330 --> 00:38:20.596
I have no control out here.
I'm at everyone's beck and call.

00:38:20.680 --> 00:38:24.870
I don't like it.
I couldn't wait to work again.

00:38:26.280 --> 00:38:29.400
Terrible to say that, but it's true. Hmm.

00:38:29.520 --> 00:38:31.560
Um... Thank you.

00:38:31.710 --> 00:38:36.852
You suffered an unimaginable loss
in 2012 when your eldest son, Sage, died.

00:38:36.936 --> 00:38:42.457
He had an undiagnosed heart condition
that killed him when he was only 36 years.

00:38:42.540 --> 00:38:45.780
And I just want to say
I'm so sorry. Thank you.

00:38:45.990 --> 00:38:47.190
Thank you.

00:38:47.850 --> 00:38:53.830
I imagine that must have profoundly
changed you. Oh. You know...

00:38:54.330 --> 00:38:58.150
The thing is, you know,
you have so many...

00:38:58.290 --> 00:39:01.281
episodes of guilt. Like,
what could I have done?

00:39:01.364 --> 00:39:05.700
Should I have been there if I did that?
If I went right, right, left?

00:39:05.784 --> 00:39:08.730
I had no idea that...
I mean, it was stunning.

00:39:09.180 --> 00:39:10.560
Like, I'll never forget.

00:39:11.220 --> 00:39:14.310
Yeah. It was so cold. My...

00:39:15.150 --> 00:39:18.730
mother's new husband. I never met.

00:39:18.870 --> 00:39:21.310
He was a doctor. I get a phone call.

00:39:22.020 --> 00:39:24.620
Friday the 13th. You guys.

00:39:25.080 --> 00:39:29.940
Sly, Stephen, he's gone.

00:39:31.140 --> 00:39:33.300
Who's gone? He goes, Sage, she's gone.

00:39:34.260 --> 00:39:37.680
They can't wear it. It's a date. It can't.

00:39:38.310 --> 00:39:39.670
I'm sorry. Click.

00:39:41.310 --> 00:39:45.310
This is possible. That's how you found it.
That's how, yeah, that's how.

00:39:45.690 --> 00:39:48.690
He's gone. He's gone. Dead, sorry.

00:39:50.030 --> 00:39:52.530
And It wasn't

00:39:52.740 --> 00:39:57.852
You know, because of the funeral,
because of all that, again,

00:39:57.936 --> 00:39:59.927
dealing with the mother,

00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:05.019
present, and it just takes
you into a whole other world.

00:40:05.103 --> 00:40:10.294
And I'll never forget. I go,
wow, I'm holding it together.

00:40:10.378 --> 00:40:14.470
When is it going to happen?
You know, when...

00:40:14.650 --> 00:40:19.040
And then... About a week later,

00:40:19.390 --> 00:40:22.630
I was all alone in my room.

00:40:23.350 --> 00:40:29.370
And a whale came out of me. I've never
heard before since. It was just...

00:40:29.890 --> 00:40:30.850
Such...

00:40:31.750 --> 00:40:32.583
key.

00:40:32.980 --> 00:40:39.980
and grief and guilt.
And it was just a, it was not human.

00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:43.150
Thank you. It really wasn't.

00:40:43.450 --> 00:40:49.410
But all I can say is that he was a very
kind kid. He had a great mother,

00:40:49.493 --> 00:40:55.117
a nice, you know, we would have
done wonderful things in the future.

00:40:55.200 --> 00:40:57.947
I just had no idea that he had...

00:40:58.030 --> 00:41:03.410
Something that you would expect
a very advanced adult to have.

00:41:03.730 --> 00:41:05.850
But no, you don't get over that.

00:41:07.660 --> 00:41:13.180
Mm-mm. I'm sorry.

00:41:14.470 --> 00:41:17.840
. Thank you.

00:41:18.520 --> 00:41:19.353
Thank you.

00:41:20.590 --> 00:41:22.870
Back to Rocky. Back to Rocky.

00:41:25.420 --> 00:41:28.390
It got... Ten Oscar nominations.

00:41:29.710 --> 00:41:31.470
It ended up winning Best Picture.

00:41:33.010 --> 00:41:35.660
Um... And

00:41:37.390 --> 00:41:41.825
It's not just the film, but you end up
capturing the public's imagination because

00:41:41.908 --> 00:41:43.470
it was this fairytale story.

00:41:45.790 --> 00:41:47.650
And I'm very interested in...

00:41:49.960 --> 00:41:55.849
in you looking back at this transition
from becoming a struggling actor

00:41:55.932 --> 00:42:01.400
to suddenly becoming the hottest
star in Hollywood. Because in...

00:42:01.810 --> 00:42:06.725
the book, there is this picture
of you, which is very poignant.

00:42:06.808 --> 00:42:12.199
And the caption reads, my last day
of being anonymous. And I thought,

00:42:12.282 --> 00:42:18.470
what an interesting thing to put in a book
that you can delineate that moment.

00:42:19.090 --> 00:42:22.180
you know, where You
could walk the streets and

00:42:22.330 --> 00:42:26.091
And no one would know Sylvester
Stallone. And then after,

00:42:26.174 --> 00:42:30.490
that was never going to be the case again.
No. It was a tsunami.

00:42:31.780 --> 00:42:35.620
The movie started at 12 noon, and...

00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:37.200
at two

00:42:38.470 --> 00:42:45.470
People started coming, they saw me, and it
was a deluge of being completely obscure

00:42:45.582 --> 00:42:47.210
for 30 years about.

00:42:47.830 --> 00:42:53.676
Just walking through being a non-entity to
now being this celebrity and someone who

00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:58.392
has tapped into their hearts
in more than just a movie. Like, hey,

00:42:58.475 --> 00:43:01.690
there was a great action film.
It was like...

00:43:01.840 --> 00:43:04.960
That's my story. That's this,
that's that. And I went, oh, my God.

00:43:05.044 --> 00:43:06.544
And I could hear the applause.

00:43:06.940 --> 00:43:11.537
Who the... Paul, is that a movie
theater? It was like a...

00:43:11.620 --> 00:43:16.898
an event. And I'm looking at my brother.
He goes, oh, you're in for it now,

00:43:16.981 --> 00:43:19.840
pal. And that's... It really was just...

00:43:20.410 --> 00:43:25.610
overnight. It was just overnight.
I don't know if...

00:43:25.810 --> 00:43:32.810
It's never happened again, obviously.
It's the rarest combination of obscurity

00:43:32.953 --> 00:43:38.090
to fame in a matter of two
hours that's documented. Whoa.

00:43:38.173 --> 00:43:41.447
Did you look at fame as something...

00:43:41.530 --> 00:43:46.972
in the same way as the psych ward.
And let me try to explain what I mean,

00:43:47.055 --> 00:43:52.050
which is this isn't going to change
me or did you look at it as...

00:43:52.150 --> 00:43:53.900
This is everything I'd ever wanted.

00:43:55.180 --> 00:44:01.707
Hmm. Well, I don't know if it
changed me, but it allowed me.

00:44:01.790 --> 00:44:08.097
Because fame breaks some people.
Well, it didn't break me.

00:44:08.180 --> 00:44:14.177
What it did is it made me
combative. It made me very...

00:44:14.260 --> 00:44:16.760
I told you so. Revengeful, spiteful.

00:44:19.930 --> 00:44:26.714
All the rejection, everything else, it
was, oh, my God, it was so insufferable.

00:44:26.797 --> 00:44:32.103
I really was. Even with the New
York Times, oh, Madame Bovary,

00:44:32.186 --> 00:44:37.927
anyone can write that. It was just,
I don't know. I mean, Lily was,

00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:41.510
I became a petulant child.
They really did.

00:44:43.000 --> 00:44:48.913
Years later, I mean, I despise myself.
I'm surprised I'm still here. You know,

00:44:48.996 --> 00:44:52.988
I managed to alienate
the entire press. I really did.

00:44:53.071 --> 00:44:57.370
And people that believed in me
and so on, I just was not,

00:44:57.453 --> 00:45:02.213
I was just not humble.
There was no humility whatsoever. Again,

00:45:02.296 --> 00:45:08.600
it's just childhood eruptions coming to
the surface at the most inopportune times.

00:45:10.180 --> 00:45:13.898
Yeah. I want to talk about some of the
people you worked with and came across in

00:45:13.981 --> 00:45:16.984
the 80s. And of course, we're going
to start with Arnold Schwarzenegger,

00:45:17.067 --> 00:45:19.217
who you're now friends
with, we should say.

00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:22.440
But he was a huge action star back then.

00:45:23.350 --> 00:45:27.090
And you said you couldn't stand
to be in the same room. No.

00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:32.397
I mean, why did you hate him so much?
What was it though? What was it though?

00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.891
Like, take me back before
the friendship was a challenge.

00:45:35.975 --> 00:45:40.489
He was he I thought I had something
going on and then I could see this guy,

00:45:40.572 --> 00:45:43.616
this immovable force,
a very confident human being,

00:45:43.699 --> 00:45:48.029
I think even more so than me,
and more psychological in the way he would

00:45:48.113 --> 00:45:52.137
manipulate and do things very cunningly,
and not in a negative way,

00:45:52.220 --> 00:45:55.040
but just shrewdly.
I was blunt force. He would

00:45:55.330 --> 00:45:58.133
Machiavellian, cool.
And I went, God damn it.

00:45:58.216 --> 00:46:02.366
And he's winning these awards
and he's a bodybuilder and I'm like,

00:46:02.449 --> 00:46:06.920
I consider myself somewhat more of a,
you know. A thespian. A thespian.

00:46:07.003 --> 00:46:09.678
A dramaturge. You know,
that kind of thing.

00:46:09.761 --> 00:46:15.347
A peripatetic dramaturge just wandering
their country acting. And I went, wow.

00:46:15.430 --> 00:46:21.015
This is my guy. This is the guy I know
I'm going to have trouble with. Period.

00:46:21.099 --> 00:46:25.231
And sure enough, we did.
We were just going at each other,

00:46:25.314 --> 00:46:31.045
which turned out to be fantastic. And,
you know, I've had some moments with him,

00:46:31.128 --> 00:46:36.070
and I'm regretful for some of the
things I've said about him, but...

00:46:36.340 --> 00:46:42.901
He antagonized me in a creative way and I
did to him. I was a thorn in his side,

00:46:42.984 --> 00:46:47.921
he was a thorn in my side, but it
just forced us to keep moving higher,

00:46:48.004 --> 00:46:52.446
bigger guns, louder moves,
more action, more bodies, everything,

00:46:52.529 --> 00:46:58.173
until I think we really carved out a niche
that'll never quite come around again,

00:46:58.257 --> 00:47:03.547
that certain 80s, over-the-top action
genre that he and I sort of pioneered.

00:47:03.630 --> 00:47:09.704
You did. Yeah. It's like a creative
marriage in a way. It is. I mean,

00:47:09.787 --> 00:47:16.590
so it's like Ali and Fraser. You need
that thing that brings you to the surface

00:47:16.673 --> 00:47:22.168
that more than any other person,
it's not even hatred. This guy,

00:47:22.251 --> 00:47:28.967
I dream about him. It's like I'm on his
mind. He's on my mind. It's very rare.

00:47:29.050 --> 00:47:34.280
You know what I mean? Men get it.
I'm sure women get it too.

00:47:35.080 --> 00:47:36.920
alpha men who I can only relate to.

00:47:37.870 --> 00:47:40.530
It's like you can't wait.

00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:45.602
to go against him, that kind of thing.
And then he does better than you.

00:47:45.685 --> 00:47:50.513
And then he just gloats on it. Oh, I see
that Stallone's film didn't perform very

00:47:50.596 --> 00:47:55.667
well. Oh, oh, oh. And then vice versa. And
then eventually we end up working together

00:47:55.750 --> 00:47:59.850
in Expendables. And I go on the
campaign trail for him. Unbelievable.

00:47:59.933 --> 00:48:04.701
When was the moment that you two, that you
thought, we put this to rest? I mean,

00:48:04.784 --> 00:48:09.066
did it just come with age and him
moving into politics and just sort of?

00:48:09.149 --> 00:48:10.180
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:48:11.320 --> 00:48:18.272
come on, actors in politics,
this is oil and water. Because we tend to,

00:48:18.355 --> 00:48:22.220
actors really very, very self-absorbed,

00:48:24.140 --> 00:48:28.983
and politicians, if they're really
good, should be just the opposite,

00:48:29.067 --> 00:48:32.767
publicly absorbed.
So I saw there's a conflict there.

00:48:32.851 --> 00:48:38.420
But he was definitely sincere about it,
and I don't know why, but he asked me,

00:48:38.560 --> 00:48:41.957
We're at a cigar place.
Would you like to...

00:48:42.040 --> 00:48:46.497
We had an event. I went, yeah? I said,
why did I say that? And then sure enough,

00:48:46.580 --> 00:48:50.866
then we hit it off. And he's a very,
very unique, I mean, he's one of a kind,

00:48:50.950 --> 00:48:53.931
forget it. It's just, I'm sorry.
So until that moment,

00:48:54.014 --> 00:48:58.130
you really hadn't spent time with him.
You didn't know you even liked him.

00:48:58.213 --> 00:49:00.540
I'm telling you, we always came to blows.

00:49:02.020 --> 00:49:06.423
When we were at Planet Hollywood,
we couldn't stand to be in the same arena.

00:49:06.506 --> 00:49:10.673
Right, because in the early 90s,
you founded, with Bruce Willis as well,

00:49:10.756 --> 00:49:15.517
Planet Hollywood. And you couldn't
even, you were in business together,

00:49:15.601 --> 00:49:19.414
but you couldn't stand being
in the same room. Oh, my God.

00:49:19.497 --> 00:49:24.654
I'll never forget. There's a picture
of he and I dancing. And it was, I think,

00:49:24.738 --> 00:49:30.163
was it Total Recall or something? And it
was at the Hotel Du Cap in the afternoon.

00:49:30.247 --> 00:49:32.140
It's festive. And everyone is there.

00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:36.402
I want to take a picture.
Okay, slide. Take a picture. Okay.

00:49:36.486 --> 00:49:39.237
Take a picture together.
He goes, director,

00:49:39.320 --> 00:49:43.588
why don't you come in here and get
in the middle? I went, oh, man.

00:49:43.671 --> 00:49:47.160
And then I grab him. You know,
like we're waltzing. And he goes,

00:49:48.280 --> 00:49:52.279
To me, it's the greatest picture because
I said, let's put this, let's stop.

00:49:52.362 --> 00:49:56.820
You know what I mean? Let's just do this
dance because that's what it is, you know?

00:49:58.210 --> 00:49:59.937
There's never going to be.

00:50:00.020 --> 00:50:05.240
You could do a movie about this, for real.
You really could. You really could.

00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:06.673
All right.

00:50:07.370 --> 00:50:10.291
We don't have much time.
That's why I'm going like that.

00:50:10.375 --> 00:50:12.950
And I'm upset because I
have so much to ask you.

00:50:14.360 --> 00:50:19.395
So I'm going to skip asking you about
working with Sandra Bullock and Demolition

00:50:19.478 --> 00:50:24.002
Man and Sharon Stone and the specialist.
So we're going to move on. Bye,

00:50:24.085 --> 00:50:27.540
ladies. Yeah. Bye, ladies.
Indeed. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah.

00:50:29.090 --> 00:50:33.528
What I do want to ask you is about
your body. Body? Body, yes. Your physique.

00:50:33.611 --> 00:50:37.638
Now you're getting personal.
Because at several points in your career,

00:50:37.721 --> 00:50:40.047
you were exceptionally muscular. Mm-hmm.

00:50:40.130 --> 00:50:46.665
which wasn't your build before Rocky. And
I was really curious how your relationship

00:50:46.748 --> 00:50:53.130
with your body has changed over time. How,
you know, you saw yourself and then...

00:50:53.390 --> 00:50:59.270
how when you, turned into this big action
star with the big muscles and everyone was

00:50:59.390 --> 00:51:02.497
sort of venerating that.
How did you see yourself?

00:51:02.580 --> 00:51:07.473
How did your relationship with that change
over time? It became very intimate,

00:51:07.557 --> 00:51:08.450
you might say.

00:51:09.560 --> 00:51:13.984
It was my armor. I looked
at like Rocky, Rocky, very smooth,

00:51:14.067 --> 00:51:19.400
very normal looking guy. And then I
said, if we move on, you have to...

00:51:19.490 --> 00:51:23.488
I think the character would
start to become a bit more vain.

00:51:23.571 --> 00:51:26.481
And then if Rambo,
you're playing a warrior,

00:51:26.564 --> 00:51:30.970
you'd be a little bit more animalistic.
You wouldn't be so smooth.

00:51:31.053 --> 00:51:34.250
So I started to think,
design your body like...

00:51:34.610 --> 00:51:41.610
a jaguar, a cat. Not big like Arnold, but
more feral and aggressive and very limber

00:51:42.020 --> 00:51:46.930
and move and athletic.
And then it became an obsession.

00:51:48.110 --> 00:51:54.030
really bad. It became to the
point where I became bulimic.

00:51:54.200 --> 00:51:59.038
You didn't know that. Okay. You heard
it here first. Yeah, because it was like,

00:51:59.121 --> 00:52:03.959
you know, you would eat. I got down to 2.6
potty fat when I was doing Rocky III

00:52:04.042 --> 00:52:08.381
in the opening scene. Literally like,
go for it. You know, like hollow.

00:52:08.465 --> 00:52:11.309
And I couldn't hold
anything down. Or if I did,

00:52:11.392 --> 00:52:16.497
I didn't want to keep it down because I
wanted to, I became so obsessed at eating.

00:52:16.580 --> 00:52:20.900
staying at that point of fitness.
And then finally, you know,

00:52:20.983 --> 00:52:26.818
I just broke the cycle. But it got to me,
literally an obsessive body worship kind

00:52:26.902 --> 00:52:31.510
of a thing. And then, you know,
nobody does it without, you know,

00:52:31.593 --> 00:52:36.996
additives and drugs, period. I don't
care who they say. Bullshit. It has to.

00:52:37.079 --> 00:52:40.760
But then again, it isn't
as though you're a junkie.

00:52:46.580 --> 00:52:50.586
and you're eating yogurt and pudding
and it's not happening. You know,

00:52:50.669 --> 00:52:54.676
you're just not. So you're taking
steroids, you're saying? Oh, my God.

00:52:54.759 --> 00:52:59.910
You have to. But you do it in a sense,
in a way, six weeks off. And people go,

00:52:59.994 --> 00:53:03.862
you don't get that way naturally.
No, you don't. You don't,

00:53:03.946 --> 00:53:08.015
unless you're just a freak of nature.
So everyone who says it,

00:53:08.099 --> 00:53:11.632
I can see them a mile away,
you know, what is obvious.

00:53:11.716 --> 00:53:14.060
But that also took a terrible toll.

00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:18.717
Terrible toll and emotionally,
too, because. Oh, yeah. No, no.

00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:23.804
Your moods and everything. It wasn't
until I did cop land where I had to,

00:53:23.887 --> 00:53:29.378
like, divest myself of that and played
the weakest guy in the room and partially

00:53:29.462 --> 00:53:34.047
deaf, overweight, everything that I
really felt somewhat liberated.

00:53:34.130 --> 00:53:36.360
Then things went sideways and I.

00:53:36.470 --> 00:53:40.739
I don't know, I just fell out
of grace with Hollywood. But, yeah,

00:53:40.823 --> 00:53:42.430
the body has played a...

00:53:43.010 --> 00:53:48.718
I've abused it. I've had nine back
operation, two shoulder operation,

00:53:48.802 --> 00:53:55.098
three neck fusions, you know, everything
is held together with bailing wire.

00:53:55.181 --> 00:53:59.211
But I still have that want
to stay in good shape.

00:53:59.294 --> 00:54:05.003
Do you still see it as your armor?
No, that because you're still fit.

00:54:05.086 --> 00:54:10.710
You're sort of fit. But, you know,
I've got all kinds of, you know.

00:54:11.120 --> 00:54:14.921
Take a lot of pills to keep going,
you know, that kind of thing.

00:54:15.005 --> 00:54:18.624
It's coming at a terrible price.
If I could do it over again,

00:54:18.707 --> 00:54:22.994
I would say let someone else carry
the banner. Don't do your own stunts.

00:54:23.077 --> 00:54:26.757
You know, I don't know what it
was about just hurting myself.

00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:32.299
All the time. I mean... All the time.
Is it masochistic? Yeah, very masochistic.

00:54:32.382 --> 00:54:38.023
It's not like I'm self-flagellating, but
if someone's going to dive onto the canvas

00:54:38.106 --> 00:54:43.816
and Rocky, they take a hit full force and
go backwards and land hood because there's

00:54:43.900 --> 00:54:48.575
no padding. You're like landing
on a board with a little thin canvas.

00:54:48.658 --> 00:54:53.900
It just jars you and jars you, but you go,
I can do better. I can do better.

00:54:58.520 --> 00:55:01.140
No, you're not going to break me.

00:55:01.490 --> 00:55:06.976
But it does break. You do get broken
a little bit physically, not mentally.

00:55:07.059 --> 00:55:08.990
We're going to talk again.

00:55:10.010 --> 00:55:14.730
But I want to end with something
that you said about regret. Yeah.

00:55:16.040 --> 00:55:21.413
And... that you don't get to be your age
at your career without a mountain of them.

00:55:21.496 --> 00:55:23.950
And we've kind of touched
on that a little. Yeah.

00:55:25.790 --> 00:55:30.725
It's horrible. It's horrible.
It really is. Because, you know,

00:55:30.808 --> 00:55:34.772
it's the fog of war,
the war of trying to succeed.

00:55:34.855 --> 00:55:39.628
You can blame it on that or just
self-pedi, self-absorption.

00:55:39.711 --> 00:55:45.900
And you go, wow. And it It's painful.
But yesterday is dead.

00:55:46.310 --> 00:55:49.609
The future is unknown.
All we got is today.

00:55:49.692 --> 00:55:55.430
You keep going back to that philosophy
and you don't forgive yourself. No,

00:55:55.513 --> 00:56:00.390
you forgive yourself for being
a bastard. No, you just regret.

00:56:00.980 --> 00:56:04.422
I wish I hadn't done that.
Wish I hadn't done that.

00:56:04.505 --> 00:56:09.053
So I'm not going to do that anymore.
But God. Because what you did,

00:56:09.136 --> 00:56:14.375
you hurt yourself. You really did.
Yeah, you denied people your love and this

00:56:14.458 --> 00:56:18.740
and that. But you also
did worse to yourself.

00:56:19.490 --> 00:56:21.710
Have you forgiven your parents?

00:56:23.420 --> 00:56:24.253
Hmm.

00:56:25.490 --> 00:56:26.323
Okay.

00:56:26.930 --> 00:56:30.630
I've accepted it.
Thank you. that they are.

00:56:31.370 --> 00:56:35.490
who they are, you know, to forgive.

00:56:35.720 --> 00:56:42.720
I guess you could say, yeah, I do. I mean,
it's definitely a delicate peace treaty.

00:56:44.030 --> 00:56:51.030
But, yeah, I have to. What are we,
they walk around yelling at ghosts?

00:56:52.160 --> 00:56:53.020
Come back here.

00:56:53.660 --> 00:56:57.820
You know, we're not finished. Oh,
we can't. That's about the regrets,

00:56:57.903 --> 00:57:02.923
you know. So all I can do is cherish every
second because, let's face it, you know,

00:57:03.007 --> 00:57:06.490
I can see the light at the end
of the tunnel. There it is.

00:57:06.573 --> 00:57:11.286
And I'm incredibly fortunate to be doing
Tulsa King. And, I mean, it's a gift.

00:57:11.369 --> 00:57:13.460
And David Glasser, you know, like.

00:57:14.270 --> 00:57:18.682
Giving me this new breath
of life and a whole new character.

00:57:18.765 --> 00:57:23.627
Imagine playing like, oh yeah,
we're doing Rambo at 80. Oh my God,

00:57:23.710 --> 00:57:27.148
who's he fighting?
He's fighting Mr. Arthritis.

00:57:27.231 --> 00:57:33.150
You're kind of out of opponents. You're
fighting, oh yeah, brain disease. Okay.

00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:40.360
We'll end here for now.
Sylvester Stallone, thank you so much.

00:57:41.420 --> 00:57:45.619
Ciao. On the interview,
we talked to our guest twice.

00:57:45.703 --> 00:57:49.983
So the next day I spoke
with Sylvester Stallone again,

00:57:50.066 --> 00:57:56.124
and he told me about his evolution
from being an avatar for war in the Rambo

00:57:56.207 --> 00:57:59.520
movies into becoming personally anti-war.

00:58:00.620 --> 00:58:07.620
Hi. Hi. Back for more. What is wrong
with you? I'll give you my word though.

00:58:07.789 --> 00:58:13.260
You have the most in-depth
interview I'm ever doing. So...

00:58:13.430 --> 00:58:18.584
Take that to the bank. Well, actually,
I wanted to thank you so much for

00:58:18.668 --> 00:58:21.650
your candor yesterday. You have always...

00:58:21.860 --> 00:58:25.584
been this person who
has exuded invincibility.

00:58:25.667 --> 00:58:32.039
That's been your persona in your life,
and that's been your persona in many of

00:58:32.122 --> 00:58:37.260
your roles. And so... It's kind of
astonishing to see you be so vulnerable.

00:58:38.210 --> 00:58:43.372
Even though I put on this
facade of having armor,

00:58:43.455 --> 00:58:48.832
like when you see Rocky
and I'm writing for Adrian,

00:58:48.915 --> 00:58:53.090
I really have a lot of empathy for him.

00:58:53.180 --> 00:58:57.274
people that just didn't get a break
in life. And I've always thought,

00:58:57.357 --> 00:58:59.998
boy, there's so many
stories in these people,

00:59:00.081 --> 00:59:02.200
but they're never going to get out.

00:59:02.750 --> 00:59:06.122
So that's why I think
Rocky was such a success,

00:59:06.206 --> 00:59:11.784
because everyone has that character
that very few people get recognition for.

00:59:11.867 --> 00:59:16.195
You know, they just, you know,
they live in quiet suffering.

00:59:16.279 --> 00:59:20.667
They're never going to get any
recognition. They're never...

00:59:20.750 --> 00:59:26.770
You know, right. I'm just here filling
space. I'm just another seat on the bus.

00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:31.959
Hmm. You know, you've been in so
many iconic films, franchises, Rocky,

00:59:32.042 --> 00:59:35.853
Rambo, The Expendables,
now Taylor Sheridan's Tulsa King.

00:59:35.936 --> 00:59:39.610
You were nominated for another
Oscar for Creed in 2016.

00:59:39.693 --> 00:59:42.752
What's your most
underappreciated performance,

00:59:42.836 --> 00:59:45.500
do you think that you're most proud of?

00:59:45.650 --> 00:59:51.875
Copland, for sure. because I had been
basically reduced to a lump of meat. Like,

00:59:51.958 --> 00:59:55.018
you're not that smart.
You're an action guy.

00:59:55.102 --> 00:59:59.917
And I have always looked at action
when it's done well as moderating

01:00:00.000 --> 01:00:05.687
mythology we don't have scribes running
around and carving on stone tablets about

01:00:05.771 --> 01:00:11.244
the Hercules and so on and so forth.
So I decided to delve in that by accident

01:00:11.327 --> 01:00:16.943
because first blood I never imagined would
transition me into more physical life

01:00:17.027 --> 01:00:21.800
because I'm not I wasn't born
this physical specimen at all. And I.

01:00:21.900 --> 01:00:23.100
It just...

01:00:23.460 --> 01:00:30.216
It just became so frustrating that things
are slowing down. I was 50 years old.

01:00:30.299 --> 01:00:36.189
It was 1996. I thought I would like
to go into the arena of the guys,

01:00:36.272 --> 01:00:42.682
the top athletes, the top actors,
and see how we bounce off of one another.

01:00:42.765 --> 01:00:49.434
And it became that kind of challenge.
There was definitely a dichotomy between

01:00:49.517 --> 01:00:53.240
the serious actor
and that guy, meaning me.

01:00:53.460 --> 01:00:57.882
And I really welcomed it. I really did.
I did the whole thing for free because

01:00:57.965 --> 01:01:01.925
the experiment was well worth it.
You know, in our first conversation,

01:01:02.008 --> 01:01:06.141
you also talked about how no one would
return your calls in Hollywood for

01:01:06.224 --> 01:01:10.762
a period of years in the late 1990s when
things were pretty rough for you there.

01:01:10.845 --> 01:01:14.342
And this was a period when you
had movies that didn't do well.

01:01:14.426 --> 01:01:18.180
Judge Dredd, Daylight, Get Carter
Driven, Detox, Avenging Angelo.

01:01:23.460 --> 01:01:27.758
just as you were filming Cliffhanger.
The article quotes one prominent Hollywood

01:01:27.842 --> 01:01:30.223
agent, and I'm going
to quote here, who said,

01:01:30.306 --> 01:01:33.400
I think he's a diminishing asset.
With every film he does,

01:01:33.483 --> 01:01:36.660
he goes down a little further.
He's the new Burt Reynolds.

01:01:38.430 --> 01:01:41.970
And Cliffhanger then went
on to do really well. Yeah.

01:01:42.090 --> 01:01:46.644
And it seems like there were these number
of moments in your life when Hollywood

01:01:46.727 --> 01:01:50.818
was trying to write you off and you
kept having these comebacks. I mean,

01:01:50.901 --> 01:01:52.327
how did you deal with it?

01:01:52.410 --> 01:01:56.630
This thing of having to keep
proving yourself to this industry.

01:01:59.210 --> 01:02:05.057
Actually, I took it as somewhat
invigorating because now I had a purpose.

01:02:05.141 --> 01:02:10.990
It's one thing to sit there and be,
I guess, slowly, you know, you're...

01:02:11.250 --> 01:02:17.368
images diminishing right before you,
you're evaporating. But for some reason,

01:02:17.451 --> 01:02:20.350
I just said, this is a call to arms.

01:02:20.700 --> 01:02:26.211
And what am I going to go back to? I'm
going to write another Rocky at 60 years

01:02:26.294 --> 01:02:30.813
old. And it was just the most
ridiculous, like 60-year-old boxer,

01:02:30.897 --> 01:02:35.558
like a 120-year-old can-can dancer.
It just doesn't work, you know.

01:02:35.641 --> 01:02:41.223
It doesn't work. But I was able to get
out the portion of what people go through

01:02:41.306 --> 01:02:46.533
as they're going into their later years,
which is grief, the sense of loss.

01:02:46.617 --> 01:02:49.520
It had nothing to do with boxing anymore.

01:02:50.700 --> 01:02:50.917
Thank you.

01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:56.361
I just felt like, God, this is the perfect
opportunity now. And, of course,

01:02:56.444 --> 01:03:01.380
it was rejected everywhere. I mean,
I had studio heads actually say,

01:03:02.370 --> 01:03:07.793
Rocky's done, and so are you, Sly.
You're done. Just go off fishing. Okay,

01:03:07.876 --> 01:03:11.588
I get it. And I go through
rewrites after rewrites.

01:03:11.671 --> 01:03:16.424
But I've always had this sense
that you have to go down swinging.

01:03:16.508 --> 01:03:20.963
How do you explain this period
of not so great films? I mean,

01:03:21.047 --> 01:03:24.237
did you know the films
were bad at the time?

01:03:24.321 --> 01:03:28.190
Was it a quality control issue?
Yeah, it really was.

01:03:32.370 --> 01:03:36.628
the components. So even though each
project had a great ability to be

01:03:36.711 --> 01:03:40.592
successful, I don't think I
really focused on the fine strokes,

01:03:40.675 --> 01:03:44.871
which is what art is made about.
In other words, the right director,

01:03:44.954 --> 01:03:48.457
the right this, the right co-star,
the right advertising,

01:03:48.540 --> 01:03:53.302
the right theme song. These are things
that I used to really apply myself to.

01:03:53.385 --> 01:03:55.210
And I suppose I just got lazy

01:04:02.370 --> 01:04:08.185
I mean, what it does to the soul of an
artistic person to make movies that aren't

01:04:08.268 --> 01:04:11.080
good. Oh, boy. It's... Thank you.

01:04:11.250 --> 01:04:13.190
It's a death in the family.

01:04:13.650 --> 01:04:19.723
Because it's not as though you
didn't sell a vacuum cleaner today.

01:04:19.807 --> 01:04:26.150
It's all over the world. And there
is a part of human nature that...

01:04:26.370 --> 01:04:27.690
revels in that.

01:04:28.110 --> 01:04:33.146
You know what I mean? And I don't
and again, I don't take it personally.

01:04:33.229 --> 01:04:38.052
I think that quite often human
nature says, OK, he's had enough time.

01:04:38.135 --> 01:04:43.313
Let's bring on the new generation.
OK, move over. Stop hogging the screen.

01:04:43.396 --> 01:04:48.076
So I get it. So it's when you reach
a certain age in this business,

01:04:48.160 --> 01:04:53.350
it becomes a very, very, very competitive,
delicate and tenuous business.

01:04:53.910 --> 01:04:55.230
career.

01:04:55.320 --> 01:05:01.331
It doesn't take much to, well, boom.
So that's why I think it's a very neurotic

01:05:01.414 --> 01:05:06.268
business at times because
the product is you. It isn't like, oh,

01:05:06.351 --> 01:05:10.440
you rejected my leather jacket.
No, we don't like it.

01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:14.710
You. But I realized, I go,
you know, here you go again.

01:05:14.794 --> 01:05:19.350
You have to do it for yourself. You have
to go out there and find the firewood

01:05:19.433 --> 01:05:23.513
and start the fire. No one is going
to knock on the door and go, here,

01:05:23.596 --> 01:05:25.440
here's an Oscar winning script.

01:05:25.740 --> 01:05:29.524
Love you. No, it really did.
It helped me because, you know,

01:05:29.608 --> 01:05:33.392
when you finally hit bottom,
you have two choices. You know,

01:05:33.476 --> 01:05:37.389
you can't go any lower and you
just eventually stop breathing.

01:05:37.472 --> 01:05:40.806
And I've always said
the artist dies twice. You know,

01:05:40.889 --> 01:05:45.769
the second death is the easiest one
compared to the career death in which is,

01:05:45.853 --> 01:05:47.980
you know, you're being dismissed.

01:05:48.900 --> 01:05:54.120
But it just woke me up, and I
was so invigorated starting to write.

01:05:56.100 --> 01:06:03.100
The hardest and the proudest moment by far
in my life is Rocky Balboa because nobody

01:06:03.593 --> 01:06:10.290
wanted it. I was done. When I say done,
I mean agent fire me, managers fire.

01:06:10.373 --> 01:06:16.891
I was done. I go, okay, this sounds
very familiar. Let's start over again.

01:06:16.974 --> 01:06:23.974
Let's see if you can do it in 60s. So it
was a fantastic voyage into the unknown.

01:06:26.100 --> 01:06:31.060
This sounds very familiar when you were
29 years old. Same thing. This is it.

01:06:31.830 --> 01:06:35.410
Listening to you talk
about this, can you...

01:06:35.700 --> 01:06:40.880
articulate your relationship then
to the character Rocky Balboa because

01:06:40.963 --> 01:06:43.537
that character has... saved

01:06:43.620 --> 01:06:50.620
your career launched your career.
Um, you are defined by it in many ways,

01:06:50.880 --> 01:06:52.660
America is defined by it.

01:06:53.490 --> 01:06:57.630
Rocky is kind of like my imaginary...

01:06:58.470 --> 01:07:03.891
male role model. It's my father.
It's what I wish, you know,

01:07:03.975 --> 01:07:10.038
I could be so I when I created him,
I put every component in there,

01:07:10.121 --> 01:07:14.258
this self-effacement,
this kind of humbleness,

01:07:14.341 --> 01:07:20.955
the ability to also take loss,
how he's very philosophical about life is,

01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:22.690
is very difficult.

01:07:28.470 --> 01:07:30.710
because it just pours out of me.

01:07:31.230 --> 01:07:34.570
Really, it does. I mean,
writing other things,

01:07:34.654 --> 01:07:38.292
especially if you're
writing something like Rambo,

01:07:38.375 --> 01:07:42.013
which is very difficult
because he's monosyllabic.

01:07:42.096 --> 01:07:44.797
His lack of expression. Rocky's is...

01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.485
Everything he's thinking
comes out. You know,

01:07:47.568 --> 01:07:51.607
it's not about how hard you hit,
it's about how hard you can get hit.

01:07:51.691 --> 01:07:55.311
Like all these things that most
people would never talk about.

01:07:55.395 --> 01:07:58.747
So I found this to be like
a therapeutic beyond practice.

01:07:58.830 --> 01:08:03.044
Anything I've ever, like you asked,
you know, you go to therapy.

01:08:03.128 --> 01:08:08.081
That was my Sigmund Freud right there.
I have another question about Rambo.

01:08:08.164 --> 01:08:12.715
You know, as we had discussed,
the first movie was quite complicated.

01:08:12.798 --> 01:08:17.230
You know, this vet that was discarded
by his country who had PTSD.

01:08:18.570 --> 01:08:23.294
And you told this incredible story
about how the last scene comes about with

01:08:23.377 --> 01:08:25.970
the movie ending with him being arrested.

01:08:28.830 --> 01:08:33.412
over time, turns into this avatar,
right? This classic action movie hero,

01:08:33.495 --> 01:08:37.566
perhaps with a little less depth
than the original character had.

01:08:37.650 --> 01:08:40.270
You're absolutely right. That's my fault.

01:08:40.860 --> 01:08:47.502
It's my fault. This is where this kind
of vainglorious pomposity that like, now,

01:08:47.585 --> 01:08:51.201
if you're like that,
wait till you see this.

01:08:51.284 --> 01:08:57.842
And I didn't really focus on the depth
of what he was still going through while

01:08:57.926 --> 01:09:04.400
trying to save POWs. He's trying to save
his own soul. We never got into that.

01:09:04.483 --> 01:09:10.620
It's just like bravado, bravado,
bravado, bulletproof. And that's all me.

01:09:11.190 --> 01:09:16.889
That's all me. I mean, I that that was
a problem that this is when you you get

01:09:16.972 --> 01:09:20.892
really hung up on kind
of like clandestine narcissism.

01:09:20.975 --> 01:09:26.090
It works its way in there.
Then you realize how this is a lot easier.

01:09:26.460 --> 01:09:28.200
They show your soul.

01:09:28.440 --> 01:09:34.089
flexing your muscles, see what I mean?
And it was terrible, you know,

01:09:34.172 --> 01:09:36.000
it was like a cartoon.

01:09:36.180 --> 01:09:40.217
It came to define also this projection
of American power, you know,

01:09:40.300 --> 01:09:43.783
and I'm going to quote you
to you in an interview in 1985.

01:09:43.866 --> 01:09:48.088
When you were talking about your view
of war, your politics, you said,

01:09:48.171 --> 01:09:50.855
if you have the power
like the United States,

01:09:50.938 --> 01:09:53.991
if you're going to talk
tall and carry a big stick,

01:09:54.074 --> 01:09:58.440
eventually you've got to use it
or they'll think you're bluffing. Yeah.

01:09:58.740 --> 01:09:59.980
Does Rambo represent

01:10:01.030 --> 01:10:04.757
a part of like your worldview
at that point as well. It did.

01:10:04.840 --> 01:10:09.516
It did. And now I realize all
war is futile. It's stupid.

01:10:09.599 --> 01:10:16.112
It's a mechanism to make tons of money
for the War Department and manufacturers

01:10:16.195 --> 01:10:20.620
and these kids just going
out there into a gristmill.

01:10:20.830 --> 01:10:25.191
Being chopped up and no. And then
when they come back with no arms. Oh,

01:10:25.274 --> 01:10:27.590
sorry. You're on your own. I hate it.

01:10:28.150 --> 01:10:33.750
I hate it and I'm bitterly
opposed to it. But at one time,

01:10:34.120 --> 01:10:36.400
I was truly gung ho.

01:10:36.670 --> 01:10:42.510
Really gung-ho. And I don't know if I
was just trying to go against the current.

01:10:43.030 --> 01:10:50.030
In Hollywood, there's a certain dynamic,
as you know. But again, I admit it was,

01:10:50.377 --> 01:10:55.620
I think it was just naivete,
really, because I read a lot,

01:10:55.703 --> 01:11:01.130
especially after First Blood.
And I go, wow, this is brutal.

01:11:01.213 --> 01:11:05.070
This is horrible. There's no glory in war.

01:11:05.530 --> 01:11:06.363
Lung.

01:11:06.820 --> 01:11:09.980
When did you become anti-war?

01:11:23.110 --> 01:11:29.402
Destroy both sides. I mean, it really
creates this horrible history. And,

01:11:29.485 --> 01:11:31.877
you know, don't get over it.

01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:38.960
They just don't. Grudges are held
and countries are destroyed and lines are

01:11:41.183 --> 01:11:47.788
redrawn. For what, though? I know
you don't want to talk about politics,

01:11:47.872 --> 01:11:51.404
but I am interested
in something you just said,

01:11:51.487 --> 01:11:57.481
which is this idea of Hollywood being
liberal and you being seen as a political

01:11:57.565 --> 01:12:03.789
conservative. Did that put you at odds in
what was perceived as a liberal industry

01:12:03.873 --> 01:12:08.927
or is that perception actually wrong?
I mean, it is wrong because.

01:12:09.010 --> 01:12:14.469
I totally understand why the perception
is like indelible. When Rocky came out,

01:12:14.552 --> 01:12:19.380
I was so naive. I'd never even voted.
I was like pushing 30 years old.

01:12:19.463 --> 01:12:23.729
I had zero. I didn't even know
the difference between Democrat

01:12:23.812 --> 01:12:27.250
and Republican.
I functioned in another universe.

01:12:29.830 --> 01:12:34.625
When Rocky wrapped himself
in a flag and that sort of thing,

01:12:34.709 --> 01:12:40.480
and every movie we were up against
at that time in competition was very,

01:12:40.563 --> 01:12:46.579
very heavy, very political. I mean,
just the extremely erudite intellectual

01:12:46.662 --> 01:12:53.246
and Rocky was not that it was emotional.
And I think that's that right away put me

01:12:53.330 --> 01:12:57.070
over here. And then when
I did first blood, I,

01:12:57.220 --> 01:13:04.220
Again, I had no idea that there was such a
chasm between the left and the right and,

01:13:05.508 --> 01:13:12.430
you know, me, you know, being jingoistic.
He's a saber rattler. It was,

01:13:12.513 --> 01:13:18.251
again, naivete on my part.
But yes, it caused a major riff.

01:13:18.335 --> 01:13:22.367
And I wish it wasn't like that because...

01:13:22.450 --> 01:13:27.197
I really think a lot of these actors
have great empathy, great heart,

01:13:27.280 --> 01:13:31.257
and they're really more
for the working man kind of thing.

01:13:31.340 --> 01:13:35.387
They're just down in the trenches.
And that's where I live,

01:13:35.470 --> 01:13:39.937
you know what I mean? But I'm not
considered that. And sometimes,

01:13:40.020 --> 01:13:44.990
you know, you say things that you
don't realize the long-range effects.

01:13:47.050 --> 01:13:50.610
So you're currently in Tulsa King,
which is a Taylor Sheridan series.

01:13:52.450 --> 01:13:53.850
What's season? That's right.

01:13:54.250 --> 01:13:59.613
Um... At this point in your career, what
keeps bringing you back to the screen?

01:13:59.696 --> 01:14:03.971
I mean, this is no longer that you have
anything left to prove. This is now.

01:14:04.054 --> 01:14:07.182
It's not about proving.
Well, not proving, but this. No,

01:14:07.265 --> 01:14:11.050
but I know exactly what you mean.
Like, what do you have to prove?

01:14:12.010 --> 01:14:16.860
It's like a racehorse. You just
keep going until it falls down.

01:14:16.943 --> 01:14:21.871
It doesn't know how to walk.
It knows how to run. And it's like,

01:14:21.955 --> 01:14:28.058
it's almost like breathing. You know
what I mean? It's like I talked to Albert,

01:14:28.141 --> 01:14:30.490
you know, De Niro, these guys.

01:14:31.000 --> 01:14:34.720
This is the you are that animal.

01:14:34.900 --> 01:14:38.620
You cease to exist without this format.

01:14:38.710 --> 01:14:44.426
And it's just it's what gives you life.
You said something in our first interview

01:14:44.509 --> 01:14:47.504
that really caught my ear.
You said, quote,

01:14:47.587 --> 01:14:51.310
that you can see the light
at the end of the tunnel.

01:14:51.640 --> 01:14:55.597
which I took to mean sort
of the end of, you know, your life.

01:14:55.681 --> 01:14:59.920
And I was wondering how you feel
about death and how you feel...

01:15:00.400 --> 01:15:02.417
about that

01:15:02.500 --> 01:15:07.540
there is less time in front of you than
there is behind you. Yeah. In panic mode.

01:15:07.960 --> 01:15:11.917
Really? Well, because that's
what I said before, you know,

01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:16.040
I built a castle with thousands
of stones made of regrets.

01:15:16.510 --> 01:15:19.816
And I'm trying to make up
for it in my own petty way.

01:15:19.899 --> 01:15:23.332
And I don't know if there's
enough time. And then I go,

01:15:23.416 --> 01:15:28.512
there is not enough time. What I have to
do is just focus on the ones that really

01:15:28.595 --> 01:15:33.371
need me and the ones that I want to go
on and have their own life and legacy

01:15:33.455 --> 01:15:34.288
and work.

01:15:34.750 --> 01:15:38.630
I'm at the point now, you know,
at 78, you're kind of like, chow.

01:15:38.714 --> 01:15:42.777
It's where the insurance company goes,
you know, that's the average.

01:15:42.860 --> 01:15:47.472
So I'm two years on borrowed time,
and I'm making up for it as much as I can.

01:15:47.556 --> 01:15:49.690
You're never too old to be in love.

01:15:50.020 --> 01:15:57.020
Never too old to dance with the great
memories that you've had and not wallow

01:15:57.308 --> 01:16:02.903
in the worst swamp of all,
which is the swamp of loneliness.

01:16:02.986 --> 01:16:05.920
That is truly premature burial.

01:16:08.180 --> 01:16:11.035
Well, thank you for the gift
of all those characters.

01:16:11.118 --> 01:16:14.638
And thank you for your time.
Sylvester Stallone, I appreciate it.

01:16:14.721 --> 01:16:16.440
I appreciate it. Keep punching.

01:16:20.020 --> 01:16:24.279
That's Sylvester Stallone. And a note, we
reached out to Devereaux for comment after

01:16:24.363 --> 01:16:28.415
this interview, and a spokesperson replied
that while they've not read the book,

01:16:28.498 --> 01:16:32.086
they respect Mr. Stallone's quote,
right to tell his story his own way,

01:16:32.169 --> 01:16:36.460
take his account seriously, and are sorry
for any trauma he remembers experiencing.

01:16:50.020 --> 01:16:54.588
by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John
Woo, mixing by Sophia Landman.

01:16:54.671 --> 01:16:57.850
Original music by Dan
Powell and Marion Lozano.

01:16:57.934 --> 01:17:02.848
Photography by Philip Montgomery.
The rest of the team is Priya Matthew,

01:17:02.932 --> 01:17:07.638
Wyatt Orme, Paola Newdorf, Joe Bill
Munoz, Eddie Costas, Mark Zemmel,

01:17:07.722 --> 01:17:11.317
Gavi Contreras, Kathleen
O'Brien, and Brooke Minters.

01:17:11.401 --> 01:17:16.260
Our executive producer is Alison Benedict.
Next week, David interviews

01:17:20.020 --> 01:17:21.720
interview from the New York Times.

01:17:22.510 --> 01:17:23.343
you