GTA co-creator on GTA 6 - launch excitement and pressure | Dan Houser and Lex Fridman

Handling creative pressure

00:02lows to really experience the highs. Let me ask you about the pressure. There's an insane level of excitement and expectation for Grand Theft Auto VI. Same was true for GTA V and GTA IV, and even before that. And you and the team delivered every time. How difficult was it to do creative work under such pressure where everyone expects this to be a success? - I was pretty good at compartmentalizing, you know, and just saying... I try just to go, and with all creative work, I go, "Well, I feel like a terrible fraud, but I haven't been found out yet. Just do my best and hopefully I won't be found out this time." And just if I can be... If I can go, "I tried hard with the work. I tried to do it with integrity. I tried not to copy someone else. I have

00:54probably done all of the above," you know, try to bring something new to it. And we, as a group, made something we are proud of. Then that's enough. You can't... If you don't want to go insane, or if I didn't want to go insane, I couldn't sit there and worry about financial results. If we made something great and it didn't sell, that would have to be okay. Because the goal is to make something that's... You know, video games are expensive, so it is a sort of commercial form of creativity. It's a commercial art form, you know. So you have to be in your mind, you're spending large amounts of someone else's money. You have to try and make it back for them. But at the same time, my argument with myself was, "Well, if we... The way to make it back is try and make something great."

01:37So both pressures are pointing in the same direction. I think GTA IV was very pressured because there had been all this pressure on the company. The company nearly imploded several times due to Hot Coffee. It was extremely tough. So I think that felt very stressful. GTA III, the company was basically broke. But I was young and didn't really care. I wasn't living in the grown-up world yet. All of them had their own pressure. All of the games had their own pressure. The more I felt I'd gone into it creatively and tried to be more ambitious, for me personally, I felt more pressure, you know, when it came out, that would have been the right choice. Because again, if you're trying to take big swings

Pressure on specific games

02:19creatively and you've spent a lot of money, that can be quite stressful. I think with Red Dead 2, we were behind schedule. We were over budget so much I didn't want to think about it. And you're making a game about a cowboy dying of TB, and the game's not coming together. Turns out a lot of people doubt you at that moment, you know, it's not that fun. So I think that was a lot of pressure. But, you know, anything, doing something new, you know, the new stuff, there's not necessarily pressure on releasing a comic book in the same way, because it's not taken as long, but, you know, if you're making things, there's always pressure that people are going to like it. - Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA IV, GTA V, and now GTA VI?

Why GTA generates excitement

03:00- Because they don't come out that regularly. And I think we did a really good job of constantly innovating within what the IP was. The games always felt different, you know, people have very strong feelings: "I like this one. I didn't like that one as much," because they are pretty different. So you would... there would be simultaneously where you know what's going to happen. It's a Grand Theft Auto, you know, it's going to be a game about being a criminal, but the way it's going to be a game is going to change quite a lot. So I think the way the IP kept evolving made people really excited to play it. And we were good at marketing them as well. We really tried to market them in a way that felt like

03:34an update of classic film marketing, where you really felt like you're already in the product just because you'd seen the trailers and stuff. - You've mentioned that you haven't written for Grand Theft Auto VI. What's it feel like Grand Theft Auto VI returning to Vice City? This is over 20 years later, but the original GTA Vice City game was set in the '80s. So maybe inspired by Scarface a little bit? - Scarface, Miami Vice. - Miami Vice. - and our '80s childhoods. You know what I realized quite a while ago, unfortunately, was that we made that game and it was set I think in '86. And it... We made it in 2002, so 16 years after. And now it's way past 16 years since Vice City came out. So the '80s were not that long

GTA VI and Vice City

04:19ago when we made it. - You know, I think Miami is one of the most unique cities in the world. Especially if you're thinking about satirizing American culture, it has this duality of a glossy surface and a dark underworld. It has the influencers, the crypto bros, the yachts, bikinis, plastic surgery, sports cars, drugs, cartel cash, luxury, super rich people, and the desperately poor, just the whole of it. Would it be like the perfect city to explore the full cast of characters that are possible, that human nature can generate? - I think it's one of them. You know, there's a reason why GTA kept coming back to Miami, New York, Los Angeles. I think they're all very good for exactly what you laid out.

05:03You know, you could move it to any of those and it would work, you know? - So yeah, there's a melting pot... - Melt... - ...aspect in New York also, right? - Yeah, a melting aspect to LA. You know, there's glitz, glamour, underbelly, immigrants, you know, enormous wealth in all of them. I think those are what, I think, are really fun for any, not even just the GTA, but for anything where you want a kind of slice of life, almost like a sort of psychotic version of a Dickens book. You know, this big slice of life. He did it with London. You know, this psychotic version of these, you know, all kinds of characters in a melting pot. Any of these global cities work well for that. - Do you know if that was ever a consideration to go elsewhere, to like a London?

Why GTA stayed in America

05:46- We made a little thing in London 26 years ago, GTA London, for the top-down for the PS1. That was pretty cute and fun. As the first mission pack ever for PlayStation 1. I think for a full GTA game, we always decided there was so much Americana inherent in the IP, it would be really hard to make it work in London or anywhere else. You know, you needed guns, you needed these larger-than-life characters. It just felt like the game was so much about America, possibly from an outsider's perspective. But that was so much about what the thing was that it wouldn't really have worked in the same way elsewhere. - So you've created, I don't know how many, over 10 Grand Theft Auto games. - I think so. - I have to ask, is it a little bit bittersweet to say,

Saying goodbye to GTA

06:37to not be a part, to say goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto world? And having to watch Grand Theft Auto VI be released? Or is it more excitement? What's the feeling? - I think it's a, it's... How would I describe it? Of course, it's all, all of the above, you know, it's exactly as you, you know, pleased to be doing other stuff, excited for what we're working on now, super excited of course, letting go of something I worked on in one way or another for like 20 odd years. You know, and wrote on them for the last 10 or 11 that came out. Wrote all of them, or you know, lead writer on all of them, whatever it was. So of course, letting go of that is, you know, is a big, is a big change. And a lot, and, and, and

07:27sad in a way, because each of the games was a kind of standalone story. It's not quite the same as, as I think probably it would be in some ways sadder if someone continued on Red Dead, because it was a cohesive two-game arc. That might be more sad to hear someone working on that. But again, not, and that, that will probably happen too. I don't own the IP. That was sort of part of the, the deal. It's a privilege to work on stuff, but you don't necessarily own it. - When you're done with the game, does it always feel like a goodbye? Like when you're done with Red Dead 2, is it like you're saying goodbye to Arthur? The characters you created, you're walking away. - You kind of are saying goodbye to Arthur in the end of the game.

Goodbye to characters

08:10- Yeah. - Even before the end of the game. Um, yeah, I think you've got, you know, I've been with them for seven, eight years, and you have to kind of let it go or you can't go on to the next one. - Yeah. - So, there's always this thing of, of, "Okay, that's done." And sometimes people would ask me questions and I, about older games. And certainly when I was in the middle of making new ones in the se- I just couldn't really necessarily even remember. And I got a pretty good memory normally, because you kind of have to let it go. So, it's not, it's, you're so immersed in it and thinking about it. And certainly in that last period, the last few months, you're really, really immersed in every little nuance

08:42and every little detail all of the time. And then you're just not thinking about it in the same way. - Yeah. It's funny from the player perspective, it feels like an old friend that I miss, whether it's John or Arthur or Nico, it's a real goodbye. That's the, there's a real sadness to finishing a video game. Like- - I hope so - ...legitimately- not just because the story is sad or- - Because you've been with them so long. - Yeah. And it's a real goodbye to close it. There's that feeling when you're sort of closed the video game, and it's, I mean, it's like saying goodbye to a friend. And it's- - That's when you finish a book you love. - Yeah. - It's the same feeling. - Same feeling. - And I think that was something that we really, in the early...

09:24...days of Rockstar, really aspired to have that, where people would... ...have that. It wasn't just the mania of clearing a level, but the... ...feeling of saying goodbye to characters. You know, I think that was something we... really ...wanted to achieve in games that we didn't know was even possible. So, to hear people... say that is incredibly rewarding. - Yeah. The end of On The Road by Kerouac: "Forlorn rags of growing... ...old." I just remember closing that and thinking, "What the fuck am I doing in this big... ...world?" It's a melancholic feeling, but there's nothing like that feeling, and you've... ...achieved that. It's so rare in video games to be able to achieve that with Red...

09:59...Dead, and for me, it was Grand Theft Auto IV with Nico.