1 00:00:02,930 --> 00:00:03,397 lows to really experience the highs. Let me ask you 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:07,207 about the pressure. There's an insane level of 3 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:11,100 excitement and expectation for Grand Theft Auto VI. 4 00:00:11,250 --> 00:00:15,180 Same was true for GTA V and GTA IV, and even before that. 5 00:00:16,050 --> 00:00:20,470 And you and the team delivered every time. How difficult was it 6 00:00:21,470 --> 00:00:27,051 to do creative work under such pressure where everyone expects this to be 7 00:00:27,134 --> 00:00:31,127 a success? - I was pretty good at compartmentalizing, you know, and just 8 00:00:31,210 --> 00:00:38,210 saying... I try just to go, and with all creative work, I go, "Well, I feel like 9 00:00:39,050 --> 00:00:42,707 a terrible fraud, but I haven't been found out yet. Just do my 10 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:46,350 best and hopefully I won't be found out this time." And just 11 00:00:47,370 --> 00:00:50,667 if I can be... If I can go, "I tried hard with the 12 00:00:50,750 --> 00:00:54,507 work. I tried to do it with integrity. I tried not to copy someone else. I have 13 00:00:54,590 --> 00:00:58,067 probably done all of the above," you know, try to bring something new to 14 00:00:58,150 --> 00:01:01,967 it. And we, as a group, made something we are proud of. 15 00:01:02,050 --> 00:01:05,467 Then that's enough. You can't... If you don't want to go 16 00:01:05,550 --> 00:01:08,712 insane, or if I didn't want to go insane, I couldn't sit there and worry about 17 00:01:08,796 --> 00:01:09,107 financial 18 00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:12,987 results. If we made something great and it didn't sell, that would have to be 19 00:01:13,070 --> 00:01:17,020 okay. Because the goal is to make something that's... 20 00:01:17,270 --> 00:01:19,650 You know, video games are expensive, so it is a 21 00:01:20,530 --> 00:01:24,480 sort of commercial form of creativity. It's a commercial art form, you know. So 22 00:01:25,890 --> 00:01:28,791 you have to be in your mind, you're spending large amounts of someone else's 23 00:01:28,874 --> 00:01:29,227 money. 24 00:01:29,310 --> 00:01:33,187 You have to try and make it back for them. But at the same time, my argument 25 00:01:33,270 --> 00:01:36,817 with myself was, "Well, if we... The way to make it back is try and make something 26 00:01:36,900 --> 00:01:40,550 great." So both pressures are pointing in the same direction. 27 00:01:41,890 --> 00:01:45,747 I think GTA IV was very pressured because there had been all this pressure on 28 00:01:45,830 --> 00:01:49,627 the company. The company nearly imploded several times 29 00:01:49,710 --> 00:01:53,167 due to Hot Coffee. It was extremely tough. So I think that felt very 30 00:01:53,250 --> 00:01:56,167 stressful. GTA III, the company was basically broke. 31 00:01:56,250 --> 00:02:00,027 But I was young and didn't really care. I wasn't living in the grown-up world yet. 32 00:02:00,110 --> 00:02:03,947 All of them had their own pressure. All of the games had their own 33 00:02:04,030 --> 00:02:07,267 pressure. The more I felt I'd gone into it 34 00:02:07,350 --> 00:02:11,187 creatively and tried to be more ambitious, for me personally, I felt more 35 00:02:11,270 --> 00:02:15,147 pressure, you know, when it came out, that would have been the 36 00:02:15,230 --> 00:02:19,067 right choice. Because again, if you're trying to take big swings 37 00:02:19,150 --> 00:02:22,612 creatively and you've spent a lot of money, that can be quite stressful. 38 00:02:22,695 --> 00:02:26,907 I think with Red Dead 2, we were behind schedule. We 39 00:02:26,990 --> 00:02:31,030 were over budget so much I didn't want to think about it. 40 00:02:31,850 --> 00:02:35,667 And you're making a game about a cowboy dying of TB, and the game's 41 00:02:35,750 --> 00:02:38,811 not coming together. Turns out a lot of people doubt you at that moment, 42 00:02:38,894 --> 00:02:42,600 you know, it's not that fun. So I think that was a lot of pressure. 43 00:02:42,710 --> 00:02:46,487 But, you know, anything, doing something new, you know, the new 44 00:02:46,570 --> 00:02:50,457 stuff, there's not necessarily pressure on releasing a comic book in the same way, 45 00:02:50,540 --> 00:02:52,942 because it's not taken as long, but, you know, if you're making things, 46 00:02:53,025 --> 00:02:55,387 there's always pressure that people are going to like it. 47 00:02:55,470 --> 00:02:59,098 - Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA IV, GTA V, 48 00:02:59,181 --> 00:03:00,015 and now GTA VI? 49 00:03:00,530 --> 00:03:04,960 - Because they don't come out that regularly. And I think we did a really 50 00:03:06,010 --> 00:03:09,947 good job of constantly innovating within what the IP was. The games 51 00:03:10,030 --> 00:03:11,982 always felt different, you know, people have very strong feelings: 52 00:03:12,066 --> 00:03:12,587 "I like this one. 53 00:03:12,670 --> 00:03:15,687 I didn't like that one as much," because they are pretty different. So you would... 54 00:03:15,770 --> 00:03:18,064 there would be simultaneously where you know what's going to happen. 55 00:03:18,147 --> 00:03:19,647 It's a Grand Theft Auto, you know, it's going 56 00:03:19,730 --> 00:03:23,229 to be a game about being a criminal, but the way it's going to be a game is going 57 00:03:23,312 --> 00:03:23,647 to change 58 00:03:23,730 --> 00:03:27,123 quite a lot. So I think the way the IP kept evolving made people really excited 59 00:03:27,206 --> 00:03:31,627 to play it. And we were good at marketing them as well. We really tried to 60 00:03:31,710 --> 00:03:33,460 market them in a way that felt like 61 00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:38,067 an update of classic film marketing, where you really felt like you're 62 00:03:38,150 --> 00:03:40,727 already in the product just because you'd seen the trailers and stuff. 63 00:03:40,810 --> 00:03:44,647 - You've mentioned that you haven't written for Grand Theft Auto VI. What's it 64 00:03:44,730 --> 00:03:48,627 feel like Grand Theft Auto VI returning to Vice City? This is over 20 65 00:03:48,710 --> 00:03:53,667 years later, but the original GTA Vice City game was set in the '80s. 66 00:03:53,750 --> 00:03:56,930 So maybe inspired by Scarface a little bit? 67 00:03:57,210 --> 00:04:00,070 - Scarface, Miami Vice. - Miami Vice. 68 00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:04,107 - and our '80s childhoods. You know what I 69 00:04:04,190 --> 00:04:07,787 realized quite a while ago, unfortunately, was that we made that 70 00:04:07,870 --> 00:04:11,860 game and it was set I think in '86. And it... We made it in 71 00:04:11,950 --> 00:04:15,940 2002, so 16 years after. And now it's way 72 00:04:16,090 --> 00:04:19,887 past 16 years since Vice City came out. So the '80s were not that long 73 00:04:19,970 --> 00:04:21,147 ago when we made it. 74 00:04:21,230 --> 00:04:24,967 - You know, I think Miami is one of the most unique cities in the world. 75 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:28,727 Especially if you're thinking about satirizing American culture, it has this 76 00:04:28,810 --> 00:04:31,847 duality of a glossy surface and a dark underworld. 77 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:35,747 It has the influencers, the crypto bros, the yachts, bikinis, plastic 78 00:04:35,830 --> 00:04:39,767 surgery, sports cars, drugs, cartel cash, luxury, super rich 79 00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:43,767 people, and the desperately poor, just the whole of it. Would it 80 00:04:43,850 --> 00:04:46,920 be like the perfect city to explore the full 81 00:04:47,550 --> 00:04:52,687 cast of characters that are possible, that human nature can generate? 82 00:04:52,770 --> 00:04:56,481 - I think it's one of them. You know, there's a reason why GTA kept coming back 83 00:04:56,564 --> 00:05:00,647 to Miami, New York, Los Angeles. I think they're 84 00:05:00,730 --> 00:05:03,107 all very good for exactly what you laid out. 85 00:05:03,190 --> 00:05:06,967 You know, you could move it to any of those and it would work, you know? 86 00:05:07,050 --> 00:05:08,467 - So yeah, there's a melting pot... 87 00:05:08,550 --> 00:05:09,927 - Melt... -...aspect in New York also, right? 88 00:05:10,010 --> 00:05:14,767 - Yeah, a melting aspect to LA. You know, there's glitz, glamour, underbelly, 89 00:05:14,850 --> 00:05:18,810 immigrants, you know, enormous wealth in all of them. I think those are what, 90 00:05:19,030 --> 00:05:22,927 I think, are really fun for any, not even just the GTA, but for anything where 91 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:26,987 you want a kind of slice of life, almost like a sort of psychotic 92 00:05:27,070 --> 00:05:31,777 version of a Dickens book. You know, this big slice of life. He did it with London. 93 00:05:31,860 --> 00:05:35,767 You know, this psychotic version of these, you know, all kinds 94 00:05:35,850 --> 00:05:40,460 of characters in a melting pot. Any of these global cities work well for that. 95 00:05:40,810 --> 00:05:45,200 - Do you know if that was ever a consideration to go elsewhere, 96 00:05:45,283 --> 00:05:50,127 to like a London? - We made a little thing in London 26 years ago, GTA 97 00:05:50,210 --> 00:05:54,127 London, for the top-down for the PS1. That 98 00:05:54,210 --> 00:05:57,970 was pretty cute and fun. As the first mission pack ever for PlayStation 99 00:05:58,170 --> 00:06:05,170 1. I think for a full GTA game, we always decided there was so much Americana 100 00:06:05,930 --> 00:06:09,397 inherent in the IP, it would be really hard to make it work in London or anywhere 101 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,007 else. You know, you needed guns, you needed these larger-than-life 102 00:06:13,090 --> 00:06:16,947 characters. It just felt like the game 103 00:06:17,030 --> 00:06:20,950 was so much about America, possibly from an outsider's perspective. But 104 00:06:21,730 --> 00:06:25,587 that was so much about what the thing was that it wouldn't really have worked in the 105 00:06:25,670 --> 00:06:26,807 same way elsewhere. 106 00:06:26,890 --> 00:06:31,047 - So you've created, I don't know how many, over 10 Grand Theft Auto games. 107 00:06:31,130 --> 00:06:36,310 - I think so. - I have to ask, is it a little bit bittersweet to say, 108 00:06:37,110 --> 00:06:40,007 to not be a part, to say goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto 109 00:06:40,090 --> 00:06:43,887 world? And having to watch Grand Theft Auto VI be released? 110 00:06:43,970 --> 00:06:47,107 Or is it more excitement? What's the feeling? 111 00:06:47,190 --> 00:06:49,160 - I think it's a, it's... 112 00:06:50,830 --> 00:06:54,647 How would I describe it? Of course, it's all, all of the above, you know, 113 00:06:54,730 --> 00:06:56,790 it's exactly as you, you know, 114 00:06:57,670 --> 00:07:01,327 pleased to be doing other stuff, excited for what we're working on now, super 115 00:07:01,410 --> 00:07:08,087 excited of course, letting go of something I worked on in one way or another for 116 00:07:08,170 --> 00:07:11,590 like 20 odd years. You know, and wrote 117 00:07:12,350 --> 00:07:16,300 on them for the last 10 or 11 that came out. Wrote all of them, or you know, 118 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:21,630 lead writer on all of them, whatever it was. So of course, letting go of that 119 00:07:23,190 --> 00:07:26,947 is, you know, is a big, is a big change. And a lot, and, and, and 120 00:07:27,030 --> 00:07:34,030 sad in a way, because each of the games was a kind of standalone story. It's 121 00:07:35,710 --> 00:07:39,407 not quite the same as, as I think probably it would be in some ways 122 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:43,350 sadder if someone continued on Red Dead, because it was a cohesive two-game 123 00:07:43,450 --> 00:07:46,755 arc. That might be more sad to hear someone working on that. But again, 124 00:07:46,838 --> 00:07:47,407 not, and 125 00:07:47,490 --> 00:07:51,427 that, that will probably happen too. I don't own the IP. That was sort of part of 126 00:07:51,510 --> 00:07:55,660 the, the deal. It's a privilege to work on stuff, but you don't necessarily own it. 127 00:07:56,130 --> 00:07:59,867 - When you're done with the game, does it always feel like a goodbye? 128 00:07:59,950 --> 00:08:03,607 Like when you're done with Red Dead 2, is it like you're saying 129 00:08:03,690 --> 00:08:07,447 goodbye to Arthur? The characters you created, you're walking away. 130 00:08:07,530 --> 00:08:10,267 - You kind of are saying goodbye to Arthur in the end of the game. 131 00:08:10,350 --> 00:08:12,650 - Yeah. - Even before the end of the game. Um, 132 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:16,028 yeah, I think you've got, you know, I've been with them for seven, eight years, 133 00:08:16,111 --> 00:08:19,427 and you have to kind of let it go or you can't go on to the next one. 134 00:08:19,510 --> 00:08:21,768 - Yeah. - So, there's always this thing of, of, "Okay, that's done." 135 00:08:21,852 --> 00:08:23,567 And sometimes people would ask me questions and I, 136 00:08:23,650 --> 00:08:27,507 about older games. And certainly when I was in the middle of making 137 00:08:27,590 --> 00:08:29,848 new ones in the se- I just couldn't really necessarily even remember. 138 00:08:29,932 --> 00:08:30,887 And I got a pretty good memory 139 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:34,867 normally, because you kind of have to let it go. So, it's not, 140 00:08:34,950 --> 00:08:38,790 it's, you're so immersed in it and thinking about it. And certainly in that 141 00:08:38,890 --> 00:08:40,995 last period, the last few months, you're really, 142 00:08:41,078 --> 00:08:42,747 really immersed in every little nuance 143 00:08:42,830 --> 00:08:45,608 and every little detail all of the time. And then you're just not thinking about it 144 00:08:45,691 --> 00:08:49,230 in the same way. - Yeah. It's funny from the player perspective, 145 00:08:50,070 --> 00:08:53,827 it feels like an old friend that I miss, whether it's John or Arthur or 146 00:08:53,910 --> 00:08:57,687 Nico, it's a real goodbye. That's the, there's a real sadness to finishing a 147 00:08:57,770 --> 00:08:59,057 video game. Like- - I hope so 148 00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:04,767 -...legitimately- not just because the story is sad or- 149 00:09:04,850 --> 00:09:06,467 - Because you've been with them so long. 150 00:09:06,550 --> 00:09:08,724 - Yeah. And it's a real goodbye to close it. 151 00:09:08,808 --> 00:09:10,860 There's that feeling when you're sort of 152 00:09:12,110 --> 00:09:15,867 closed the video game, and it's, I mean, it's 153 00:09:15,950 --> 00:09:20,107 like saying goodbye to a friend. And it's- - That's when you finish a book you love. 154 00:09:20,190 --> 00:09:20,907 - Yeah. - It's the same feeling. 155 00:09:20,990 --> 00:09:24,887 - Same feeling. - And I think that was something that we really, in the early... 156 00:09:24,970 --> 00:09:28,907 ...days of Rockstar, really aspired to have that, where people would... 157 00:09:28,990 --> 00:09:32,847 ...have that. It wasn't just the mania of clearing a level, but the... 158 00:09:32,930 --> 00:09:34,954 ...feeling of saying goodbye to characters. You know, 159 00:09:35,038 --> 00:09:36,307 I think that was something we... 160 00:09:36,390 --> 00:09:37,223 really 161 00:09:37,970 --> 00:09:40,750 ...wanted to achieve in games that we didn't know was even possible. So, 162 00:09:40,834 --> 00:09:41,684 to hear people... 163 00:09:42,170 --> 00:09:44,210 say that is incredibly rewarding. 164 00:09:44,310 --> 00:09:48,020 - Yeah. The end of On The Road by Kerouac: "Forlorn rags of growing... 165 00:09:48,150 --> 00:09:50,157 ...old." I just remember closing that and thinking, 166 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:51,887 "What the fuck am I doing in this big... 167 00:09:51,970 --> 00:09:54,984 ...world?" It's a melancholic feeling, but there's nothing like that feeling, 168 00:09:55,067 --> 00:09:55,567 and you've... 169 00:09:55,650 --> 00:09:58,533 ...achieved that. It's so rare in video games to be able to achieve that 170 00:09:58,617 --> 00:10:02,900 with Red... ...Dead, and for me, it was Grand Theft Auto IV with Nico.