WEBVTT 00:00:02.930 --> 00:00:03.397 lows to really experience the highs. Let me ask you 00:00:03.480 --> 00:00:07.207 about the pressure. There's an insane level of 00:00:07.290 --> 00:00:11.100 excitement and expectation for Grand Theft Auto VI. 00:00:11.250 --> 00:00:15.180 Same was true for GTA V and GTA IV, and even before that. 00:00:16.050 --> 00:00:20.470 And you and the team delivered every time. How difficult was it 00:00:21.470 --> 00:00:27.051 to do creative work under such pressure where everyone expects this to be 00:00:27.134 --> 00:00:31.127 a success? - I was pretty good at compartmentalizing, you know, and just 00:00:31.210 --> 00:00:38.210 saying... I try just to go, and with all creative work, I go, "Well, I feel like 00:00:39.050 --> 00:00:42.707 a terrible fraud, but I haven't been found out yet. Just do my 00:00:42.790 --> 00:00:46.350 best and hopefully I won't be found out this time." And just 00:00:47.370 --> 00:00:50.667 if I can be... If I can go, "I tried hard with the 00:00:50.750 --> 00:00:54.507 work. I tried to do it with integrity. I tried not to copy someone else. I have 00:00:54.590 --> 00:00:58.067 probably done all of the above," you know, try to bring something new to 00:00:58.150 --> 00:01:01.967 it. And we, as a group, made something we are proud of. 00:01:02.050 --> 00:01:05.467 Then that's enough. You can't... If you don't want to go 00:01:05.550 --> 00:01:08.712 insane, or if I didn't want to go insane, I couldn't sit there and worry about 00:01:08.796 --> 00:01:09.107 financial 00:01:09.190 --> 00:01:12.987 results. If we made something great and it didn't sell, that would have to be 00:01:13.070 --> 00:01:17.020 okay. Because the goal is to make something that's... 00:01:17.270 --> 00:01:19.650 You know, video games are expensive, so it is a 00:01:20.530 --> 00:01:24.480 sort of commercial form of creativity. It's a commercial art form, you know. So 00:01:25.890 --> 00:01:28.791 you have to be in your mind, you're spending large amounts of someone else's 00:01:28.874 --> 00:01:29.227 money. 00:01:29.310 --> 00:01:33.187 You have to try and make it back for them. But at the same time, my argument 00:01:33.270 --> 00:01:36.817 with myself was, "Well, if we... The way to make it back is try and make something 00:01:36.900 --> 00:01:40.550 great." So both pressures are pointing in the same direction. 00:01:41.890 --> 00:01:45.747 I think GTA IV was very pressured because there had been all this pressure on 00:01:45.830 --> 00:01:49.627 the company. The company nearly imploded several times 00:01:49.710 --> 00:01:53.167 due to Hot Coffee. It was extremely tough. So I think that felt very 00:01:53.250 --> 00:01:56.167 stressful. GTA III, the company was basically broke. 00:01:56.250 --> 00:02:00.027 But I was young and didn't really care. I wasn't living in the grown-up world yet. 00:02:00.110 --> 00:02:03.947 All of them had their own pressure. All of the games had their own 00:02:04.030 --> 00:02:07.267 pressure. The more I felt I'd gone into it 00:02:07.350 --> 00:02:11.187 creatively and tried to be more ambitious, for me personally, I felt more 00:02:11.270 --> 00:02:15.147 pressure, you know, when it came out, that would have been the 00:02:15.230 --> 00:02:19.067 right choice. Because again, if you're trying to take big swings 00:02:19.150 --> 00:02:22.612 creatively and you've spent a lot of money, that can be quite stressful. 00:02:22.695 --> 00:02:26.907 I think with Red Dead 2, we were behind schedule. We 00:02:26.990 --> 00:02:31.030 were over budget so much I didn't want to think about it. 00:02:31.850 --> 00:02:35.667 And you're making a game about a cowboy dying of TB, and the game's 00:02:35.750 --> 00:02:38.811 not coming together. Turns out a lot of people doubt you at that moment, 00:02:38.894 --> 00:02:42.600 you know, it's not that fun. So I think that was a lot of pressure. 00:02:42.710 --> 00:02:46.487 But, you know, anything, doing something new, you know, the new 00:02:46.570 --> 00:02:50.457 stuff, there's not necessarily pressure on releasing a comic book in the same way, 00:02:50.540 --> 00:02:52.942 because it's not taken as long, but, you know, if you're making things, 00:02:53.025 --> 00:02:55.387 there's always pressure that people are going to like it. 00:02:55.470 --> 00:02:59.098 - Why do you think there was so much excitement about GTA IV, GTA V, 00:02:59.181 --> 00:03:00.015 and now GTA VI? 00:03:00.530 --> 00:03:04.960 - Because they don't come out that regularly. And I think we did a really 00:03:06.010 --> 00:03:09.947 good job of constantly innovating within what the IP was. The games 00:03:10.030 --> 00:03:11.982 always felt different, you know, people have very strong feelings: 00:03:12.066 --> 00:03:12.587 "I like this one. 00:03:12.670 --> 00:03:15.687 I didn't like that one as much," because they are pretty different. So you would... 00:03:15.770 --> 00:03:18.064 there would be simultaneously where you know what's going to happen. 00:03:18.147 --> 00:03:19.647 It's a Grand Theft Auto, you know, it's going 00:03:19.730 --> 00:03:23.229 to be a game about being a criminal, but the way it's going to be a game is going 00:03:23.312 --> 00:03:23.647 to change 00:03:23.730 --> 00:03:27.123 quite a lot. So I think the way the IP kept evolving made people really excited 00:03:27.206 --> 00:03:31.627 to play it. And we were good at marketing them as well. We really tried to 00:03:31.710 --> 00:03:33.460 market them in a way that felt like 00:03:34.250 --> 00:03:38.067 an update of classic film marketing, where you really felt like you're 00:03:38.150 --> 00:03:40.727 already in the product just because you'd seen the trailers and stuff. 00:03:40.810 --> 00:03:44.647 - You've mentioned that you haven't written for Grand Theft Auto VI. What's it 00:03:44.730 --> 00:03:48.627 feel like Grand Theft Auto VI returning to Vice City? This is over 20 00:03:48.710 --> 00:03:53.667 years later, but the original GTA Vice City game was set in the '80s. 00:03:53.750 --> 00:03:56.930 So maybe inspired by Scarface a little bit? 00:03:57.210 --> 00:04:00.070 - Scarface, Miami Vice. - Miami Vice. 00:04:00.170 --> 00:04:04.107 - and our '80s childhoods. You know what I 00:04:04.190 --> 00:04:07.787 realized quite a while ago, unfortunately, was that we made that 00:04:07.870 --> 00:04:11.860 game and it was set I think in '86. And it... We made it in 00:04:11.950 --> 00:04:15.940 2002, so 16 years after. And now it's way 00:04:16.090 --> 00:04:19.887 past 16 years since Vice City came out. So the '80s were not that long 00:04:19.970 --> 00:04:21.147 ago when we made it. 00:04:21.230 --> 00:04:24.967 - You know, I think Miami is one of the most unique cities in the world. 00:04:25.050 --> 00:04:28.727 Especially if you're thinking about satirizing American culture, it has this 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:31.847 duality of a glossy surface and a dark underworld. 00:04:31.930 --> 00:04:35.747 It has the influencers, the crypto bros, the yachts, bikinis, plastic 00:04:35.830 --> 00:04:39.767 surgery, sports cars, drugs, cartel cash, luxury, super rich 00:04:39.850 --> 00:04:43.767 people, and the desperately poor, just the whole of it. Would it 00:04:43.850 --> 00:04:46.920 be like the perfect city to explore the full 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:52.687 cast of characters that are possible, that human nature can generate? 00:04:52.770 --> 00:04:56.481 - I think it's one of them. You know, there's a reason why GTA kept coming back 00:04:56.564 --> 00:05:00.647 to Miami, New York, Los Angeles. I think they're 00:05:00.730 --> 00:05:03.107 all very good for exactly what you laid out. 00:05:03.190 --> 00:05:06.967 You know, you could move it to any of those and it would work, you know? 00:05:07.050 --> 00:05:08.467 - So yeah, there's a melting pot... 00:05:08.550 --> 00:05:09.927 - Melt... -...aspect in New York also, right? 00:05:10.010 --> 00:05:14.767 - Yeah, a melting aspect to LA. You know, there's glitz, glamour, underbelly, 00:05:14.850 --> 00:05:18.810 immigrants, you know, enormous wealth in all of them. I think those are what, 00:05:19.030 --> 00:05:22.927 I think, are really fun for any, not even just the GTA, but for anything where 00:05:23.010 --> 00:05:26.987 you want a kind of slice of life, almost like a sort of psychotic 00:05:27.070 --> 00:05:31.777 version of a Dickens book. You know, this big slice of life. He did it with London. 00:05:31.860 --> 00:05:35.767 You know, this psychotic version of these, you know, all kinds 00:05:35.850 --> 00:05:40.460 of characters in a melting pot. Any of these global cities work well for that. 00:05:40.810 --> 00:05:45.200 - Do you know if that was ever a consideration to go elsewhere, 00:05:45.283 --> 00:05:50.127 to like a London? - We made a little thing in London 26 years ago, GTA 00:05:50.210 --> 00:05:54.127 London, for the top-down for the PS1. That 00:05:54.210 --> 00:05:57.970 was pretty cute and fun. As the first mission pack ever for PlayStation 00:05:58.170 --> 00:06:05.170 1. I think for a full GTA game, we always decided there was so much Americana 00:06:05.930 --> 00:06:09.397 inherent in the IP, it would be really hard to make it work in London or anywhere 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:13.007 else. You know, you needed guns, you needed these larger-than-life 00:06:13.090 --> 00:06:16.947 characters. It just felt like the game 00:06:17.030 --> 00:06:20.950 was so much about America, possibly from an outsider's perspective. But 00:06:21.730 --> 00:06:25.587 that was so much about what the thing was that it wouldn't really have worked in the 00:06:25.670 --> 00:06:26.807 same way elsewhere. 00:06:26.890 --> 00:06:31.047 - So you've created, I don't know how many, over 10 Grand Theft Auto games. 00:06:31.130 --> 00:06:36.310 - I think so. - I have to ask, is it a little bit bittersweet to say, 00:06:37.110 --> 00:06:40.007 to not be a part, to say goodbye to the Grand Theft Auto 00:06:40.090 --> 00:06:43.887 world? And having to watch Grand Theft Auto VI be released? 00:06:43.970 --> 00:06:47.107 Or is it more excitement? What's the feeling? 00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:49.160 - I think it's a, it's... 00:06:50.830 --> 00:06:54.647 How would I describe it? Of course, it's all, all of the above, you know, 00:06:54.730 --> 00:06:56.790 it's exactly as you, you know, 00:06:57.670 --> 00:07:01.327 pleased to be doing other stuff, excited for what we're working on now, super 00:07:01.410 --> 00:07:08.087 excited of course, letting go of something I worked on in one way or another for 00:07:08.170 --> 00:07:11.590 like 20 odd years. You know, and wrote 00:07:12.350 --> 00:07:16.300 on them for the last 10 or 11 that came out. Wrote all of them, or you know, 00:07:16.410 --> 00:07:21.630 lead writer on all of them, whatever it was. So of course, letting go of that 00:07:23.190 --> 00:07:26.947 is, you know, is a big, is a big change. And a lot, and, and, and 00:07:27.030 --> 00:07:34.030 sad in a way, because each of the games was a kind of standalone story. It's 00:07:35.710 --> 00:07:39.407 not quite the same as, as I think probably it would be in some ways 00:07:39.490 --> 00:07:43.350 sadder if someone continued on Red Dead, because it was a cohesive two-game 00:07:43.450 --> 00:07:46.755 arc. That might be more sad to hear someone working on that. But again, 00:07:46.838 --> 00:07:47.407 not, and 00:07:47.490 --> 00:07:51.427 that, that will probably happen too. I don't own the IP. That was sort of part of 00:07:51.510 --> 00:07:55.660 the, the deal. It's a privilege to work on stuff, but you don't necessarily own it. 00:07:56.130 --> 00:07:59.867 - When you're done with the game, does it always feel like a goodbye? 00:07:59.950 --> 00:08:03.607 Like when you're done with Red Dead 2, is it like you're saying 00:08:03.690 --> 00:08:07.447 goodbye to Arthur? The characters you created, you're walking away. 00:08:07.530 --> 00:08:10.267 - You kind of are saying goodbye to Arthur in the end of the game. 00:08:10.350 --> 00:08:12.650 - Yeah. - Even before the end of the game. Um, 00:08:12.850 --> 00:08:16.028 yeah, I think you've got, you know, I've been with them for seven, eight years, 00:08:16.111 --> 00:08:19.427 and you have to kind of let it go or you can't go on to the next one. 00:08:19.510 --> 00:08:21.768 - Yeah. - So, there's always this thing of, of, "Okay, that's done." 00:08:21.852 --> 00:08:23.567 And sometimes people would ask me questions and I, 00:08:23.650 --> 00:08:27.507 about older games. And certainly when I was in the middle of making 00:08:27.590 --> 00:08:29.848 new ones in the se- I just couldn't really necessarily even remember. 00:08:29.932 --> 00:08:30.887 And I got a pretty good memory 00:08:30.970 --> 00:08:34.867 normally, because you kind of have to let it go. So, it's not, 00:08:34.950 --> 00:08:38.790 it's, you're so immersed in it and thinking about it. And certainly in that 00:08:38.890 --> 00:08:40.995 last period, the last few months, you're really, 00:08:41.078 --> 00:08:42.747 really immersed in every little nuance 00:08:42.830 --> 00:08:45.608 and every little detail all of the time. And then you're just not thinking about it 00:08:45.691 --> 00:08:49.230 in the same way. - Yeah. It's funny from the player perspective, 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:53.827 it feels like an old friend that I miss, whether it's John or Arthur or 00:08:53.910 --> 00:08:57.687 Nico, it's a real goodbye. That's the, there's a real sadness to finishing a 00:08:57.770 --> 00:08:59.057 video game. Like- - I hope so 00:08:59.140 --> 00:09:04.767 -...legitimately- not just because the story is sad or- 00:09:04.850 --> 00:09:06.467 - Because you've been with them so long. 00:09:06.550 --> 00:09:08.724 - Yeah. And it's a real goodbye to close it. 00:09:08.808 --> 00:09:10.860 There's that feeling when you're sort of 00:09:12.110 --> 00:09:15.867 closed the video game, and it's, I mean, it's 00:09:15.950 --> 00:09:20.107 like saying goodbye to a friend. And it's- - That's when you finish a book you love. 00:09:20.190 --> 00:09:20.907 - Yeah. - It's the same feeling. 00:09:20.990 --> 00:09:24.887 - Same feeling. - And I think that was something that we really, in the early... 00:09:24.970 --> 00:09:28.907 ...days of Rockstar, really aspired to have that, where people would... 00:09:28.990 --> 00:09:32.847 ...have that. It wasn't just the mania of clearing a level, but the... 00:09:32.930 --> 00:09:34.954 ...feeling of saying goodbye to characters. You know, 00:09:35.038 --> 00:09:36.307 I think that was something we... 00:09:36.390 --> 00:09:37.223 really 00:09:37.970 --> 00:09:40.750 ...wanted to achieve in games that we didn't know was even possible. So, 00:09:40.834 --> 00:09:41.684 to hear people... 00:09:42.170 --> 00:09:44.210 say that is incredibly rewarding. 00:09:44.310 --> 00:09:48.020 - Yeah. The end of On The Road by Kerouac: "Forlorn rags of growing... 00:09:48.150 --> 00:09:50.157 ...old." I just remember closing that and thinking, 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:51.887 "What the fuck am I doing in this big... 00:09:51.970 --> 00:09:54.984 ...world?" It's a melancholic feeling, but there's nothing like that feeling, 00:09:55.067 --> 00:09:55.567 and you've... 00:09:55.650 --> 00:09:58.533 ...achieved that. It's so rare in video games to be able to achieve that 00:09:58.617 --> 00:10:02.900 with Red... ...Dead, and for me, it was Grand Theft Auto IV with Nico.