Public transcript

Are psychopaths born evil? | Julia Shaw and Lex Fridman

By: Lex Clips
Length: 6 min
Language: English
Text from: the video's captions
Transcribed: 12 October 2026

Read the full transcript Open on YouTube

Notes in English.

Summary

Criminal psychologist Julia Shaw discusses with Lex Fridman whether people are born evil, using the "baby Hitler" question as a starting point. She argues no one is born evil, that the label "evil" ends understanding and enables harm, and that war relies on dehumanization and de-individuation. She makes the case for "evil empathy" — understanding those who commit terrible acts as the only way to prevent such behavior.

Key points

Julia Shaw would not kill baby Hitler because she does not believe people are born evil.
She argues the label 'evil' ends conversations and 'others' people, making horrendous acts against them feel justified.
Lex Fridman notes that war requires dehumanizing the other side as a fight of good versus evil.
Shaw adds de-individuation, where individuals are swallowed by the group and gain a cloak of morality.
She calls empathy for so-called evil people 'evil empathy' and says it is needed to understand and prevent harmful behavior.
As a criminal psychologist working on sexual abuse, rape, and murder cases, she says understanding psychological and social levers is the only way to make society safer.

Questions it answers

00:02The baby Hitler question

Would Julia Shaw kill baby Hitler, and why?

Shaw says no, because she does not think people are born evil. Hitler showed few of his later harmful traits early in life, so there is no straight line from baby to adult.

The question tests whether people think harmful traits are innate or socialized.
Shaw's answer is no because people are not born evil.

01:23Rejecting the label 'evil'

Why does Shaw reject calling people 'evil'?

She says the word 'others' people, ends conversation, and can justify horrendous acts against them. She prefers continuums of negative traits and notes everyone has the capacity for harm.

'Evil' ends understanding by declaring someone fundamentally different.
The real question is why we don't do terrible things, not why we do.

02:47Dehumanization and de-individuation

What psychological mechanisms enable large-scale violence?

Fridman notes war requires dehumanizing the other side as good versus evil. Shaw adds de-individuation, where the group swallows the individual and provides a cloak of morality.

Both sides in a war usually see themselves as good.
Dehumanization plus de-individuation enables us-versus-them violence.

04:17The case for evil empathy

Why empathize with people we call evil?

She calls it 'evil empathy': to stop harmful behavior, we must understand the psychological and social levers that led to it. Labeling people does not make society safer.

Her book title references Nietzsche: 'Thinking evil is making evil.'
Understanding causes is the only path to preventing harm.

Notes

Are people born evil?

Julia Shaw frames the "Would you kill baby Hitler?" question as a test of whether people think harmful traits are innate or socialized.
Psychologists who studied Hitler's life found traits like sadism and low empathy, but he did not show these strongly in early life.
Shaw's answer is no, she would not kill baby Hitler, because there is no straight line from baby to adult and people are not born evil.

The problem with the word "evil"

Shaw avoids calling human beings evil because the label "others" people and can make us capable of perpetrating horrendous crimes against them.
Calling someone evil ends the conversation: it declares they are so different from us that we need not understand them.
She wants to dismantle the artificial good/evil divide and use continuums for negative traits instead.
We all have the capacity for terrible things; the real question is why we don't do them.

War, dehumanization, and de-individuation

Lex Fridman observes that war requires dehumanizing the other side, framing conflict as good versus evil, and both sides usually see themselves as good.
Shaw adds de-individuation: seeing yourself as part of a group rather than an individual, creating an "us versus them" mentality.
Together, collapsed empathy and group identity provide a "cloak of justice" even when you may be on the wrong side.

The case for "evil empathy"

Shaw promotes empathy even for people labeled evil, calling it "evil empathy."
Her book is titled Evil (Making Evil in the UK), referencing Nietzsche's idea that "thinking evil is making evil" — evil is a label we place on others.
As a criminal psychologist working on sexual abuse, rape, and murder cases, she says labeling people does not stop behavior.
Understanding the psychological and social levers behind harmful behavior is the only way to make society safer.

Text from the video's own captions. Summary and notes written by AI from the transcript, so check anything important against the recording.