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is the skill of taste and design and user
experience. It feels like that's a

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very hard skill to learn and to me
tells me design is going to be much more

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valuable in the future. Yeah, that's
right. And again here this this is a

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great example. So the again the task

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level the the the the task level of like

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design the perfect icon, right, is going
to be like all right, the A's going to

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do that all day long. It's give you
a thousand icon designs. It's going to be

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great. like it's going to be fantastic
like whatever you know and there will

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still by the way there will still
be some level of human icon design or

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whatever but like they is going to get
really good at that but like what are we

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trying to do like the you know kind
of capital D design of like all right what

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is this thing for and how does this how
is this going to function in a world of

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human beings and like you know what
what's going to is this going to make

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people happy when they use it
is going to make people feel good about

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themselves um is it going to fit into
the rest of their life is it going to

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you know I don't know challenge them
in the right way you know all these kinds

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of higher level questions that the great
designers have always thought about like

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that the the job of designer right will
involve much more of those higher level

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more important components and and then
again with with AI doing a lot more of

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the underlying tasks and so you know
one way to think about it is you know I

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don't know you you think like I don't
know the world's best designers you know

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Johnny IV or whatever and you could be
like wow like if I'm a designer today if

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I'm a 25-year-old designer and I and I
aspire to be you know Johnny Iv in a

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decade um it's it's all of a sudden I

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have a new path that I can use to kind
of get to to to get there which is I can

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you Because Johnny did everything he
did without AI. Now, you know, a young

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designer can be like, "Wow, if I really
harness AI in a decade, I'm going to be

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like the best designer the world's ever
seen because it's not just going to be

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me. It's going to be me plus being so
super empowered by this technology to be

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able to do so much more." Um, and then
so much more of my time and attention is

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going to be is going to be able to be
focused on these higher level things

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that most most designers never get to.

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And I think that that's going to be
another great example of that. So maybe

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what I'm hearing here is kind of this
T-shaped strategy of be if you want to

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be successful in any three of these
roles, be very very very good at that

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specific role, product management,
engineering, design, and then get good

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enough at these other two roles.

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>> Well, so I think that's great. I think
that's really really relevant. And then

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you know Scott, you know, Scott Adams
unfortunately just passed away. um you

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know which is which which is a real
tragedy but um I was always I I referred

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for years to actually Scott Adams he had
this famous um he had this famous kind

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of career advice he would give people
which I I think makes a lot of sense

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which which which dubtales with what
you're saying which is he he used to say

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used to say it's like look he said um
you know I I could he he said you know I

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could have been a pretty good cartoonist
u or I could have been like pretty good

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at business but the fact that I was a
cartoonist who understood business made

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me like spectacularly
great at making Dilbert

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Right? Because even the world's best
cartoonists who didn't understand

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business could have never written
Dilbert. And then the world's best

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business people who didn't know how
to do cartoons couldn't have done Dilbert.

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It took somebody who actually had
both of those skills to be able to make

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Dilbert, right? Which is one of the most
successful cartoons in history, right?

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And so so the way Scott always described
it was that that the from a career

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development standpoint that the additive
effect of being good at two things is

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like more than double, right? Um the

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additive effect of being good at three
things is more than triple, right? um be

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because you you you be you become
a super relevant specialist in the

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combination of the domains. Um and and you
you look you see this all I mean you

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see this all over you know you see this
all over the economy I mean you see this

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all over the economy but I'll you know
give you an example Hollywood you just

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Hollywood as an example you know there
are a lot of writers who can't direct a

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movie and they can be very successful
writers there are a lot of directors who

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can't write a movie they can be very
successful directors but the superstars

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in the entertainment industry are
the people who can write and direct right

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and you know they have a term for those
they call those auras right and that's

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you know those are the people who are
like the real creative forces that move

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the field and so and so again and by the
way Hollywood actually it's really it's

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been spent spending a lot of time
talking to Hollywood people about AI.

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Hollywood has the same Mexican standoff
going um right now that we that we

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described in tech except in Hollywood
for example for filmm it's the director

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it's the writer and the actor right
because the director is now thinking wow

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I don't need the writer anymore because
the AI can write the script and I don't

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need the actor anymore because I can
have AI actors the writer is saying I

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don't need the director because
[laughter] I can direct the movie and

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the AI can do the actors and the actor
is saying I don't need either one of

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these guys I can have the AI direct the
thing I can have the AI write the thing

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and I'm just going to show up and do
my performance right and so so it's it's

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it's the same it's the same kind of tri
triangular configuration. And again,

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what what's great about it is they're
all correct, right? Each person in each

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of those three fields is going to be
able to expand laterally and pick up

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those other those additional skills.
And then as a consequence, you're going to

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have more people who can write
and direct or write and act or direct and

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act or do all three. And and I think,
you know, to your point like your your

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your T-shift thing, like I I think
that's going to be true basically across

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the entire economy. And and and if you
think about the T is if you think about

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the T configuration, it's like yeah, the
bre the breath the breath the top of the

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tea is like how many individual domains
are you familiar enough with to be able

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to use the AI tools to be able to do
really good work. And then the the this

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part of the tea is how deep can you go
in at least one of those domains so that

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you really really deeply know what
you're doing. But like if you're like

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super deep on coding and you can use
AI to do design and you can use AI to do

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product management, right? That that's
your T right there. and and you're a

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triple threat at the top of the tea,
but with this level of technical grounding

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underneath that. And I mean,
at that point, you're again, you're the

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superpowered individual, you're going
to be able to just perform like feats of

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magic, uh, for example, in terms of
designing and building new products, you

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know, that people in my generation
couldn't have even dreamed of. And so I

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I I think I think that this is a
universal kind of theory that I think

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can can apply across the entire economy.

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>> I'm going to invent a new framework
right now. Okay, forget the T framework.

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Uh, I'm picturing an F sideways or an E

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where there's three two or three,
[laughter] I don't know, downward parts.

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And so what I'm hearing
is get good at least two.

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>> I think that's right. I think that's
right. Yeah. The combination. Yeah. Um,

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my my friend Larry Summers had a had
a different version of the Scott Adams

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thing, which is he used to tell people
he said the key for career planning is

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he said don't be funible.
>> Right? [snorts]

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And you know that's he's an economist
and so that was economics speak and and

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what that means is what that means
essentially is don't be replaceable and

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so don't be a cog right so and what that
meant was don't just be one thing right

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so if you're if you're if you're quote
unquote you know again just a designer

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just a product manager just a coder like
then in theory you can be swapped in or

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out but if if you have this if you have
this yeah to if you have this E or F you

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know laying on it side kind of thing and
if you have if you have this combination

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of things it's actually quite rare then
all of a sudden you're not fungeible not

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only you're not fungeible like you're
actually massively important because

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you're one of the only people
in the world who can actually do that

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combination of things. Um, and yeah,
that that your ability now to become one

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of those people is like just titanically
enhanced uh with AI as compared to

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anything we've ever seen before. This is
so interesting because I've worked with

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people that are good at these two skills
and they were always called unicorns at

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the company. She can code and design.
Oh my god. And what I'm hearing here is

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this is what you need to become.
You need to become really good at at least

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two things there. I think you use the term
smoke stack or something where it's

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like PM over here engineer design. And
what I'm hearing here is you need to get

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good at at least two of these skills.

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The silos of these two
roles are disappearing.

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>> That's right. That's right. And again,
I can't I can't overstress the following

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for for anybody listening to this.
The thing about AI that I think people are

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just like not getting enough benefit
out of yet is just it will teach you.

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[laughter] Like this is amazing.
Like there's never

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been a technology before where you
can ask it like teach me how to do this

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thing, right? So it's I always feel
like it's like it's like people spend too

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much. It's one of these things where
it's like so much focus on figuring out

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how to use like a large language model
is like okay what am I going to try to

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get it to do for me right which is of
course very important but the other side

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of it is what can I get it to teach me

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how to do right and it's it's just
as good at that right um and so again this

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is this level this level of latent
superpower like you know people who

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really want to like improve themselves
and like develop their career should be

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spending every every spare hour
in my view at this point talking to an AI

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being like all right train train me up
like tell me tell supermpower me tell me

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how to you know train train me train me
how to be you know I'm a coder train me

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how to be a product manager. It will
happily do that. It's it knows exactly

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how to do that. You know, run me,
you know, make me problems, you know, make

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me assignments, then evaluate my results,
right? And it will do it will

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do that just as happily as it
will do work quote unquote for you.

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>> Two tricks I've
heard along those lines.

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One is uh to watch the output, what
the agent is doing and thinking as it's

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doing the work. So, if you're not an
engineer, is just sit there and watch it

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think and make decisions. And it's
almost become this like layer on top of

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learning to code is learning to see what
the agent is doing and thinking because

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that teaches you about architecture. And
the other is uh a couple podcast guests

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have mentioned this when you get stuck
and then you figure out how to unstuck

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yourself, you ask it, what could I have
done differently? What could I have said

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that would have avoided
this error in the first place?

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>> Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah.

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Look, on that first one, and this again,
this is what I'm doing with my

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10-year-old. Yeah. Look, if if if you
ask an Yeah, this is this is a really

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good point. So if you ask an AI to write
me this code and then and then it

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doesn't it comes back and it doesn't
work right like if if all you know is

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like single function I asked and it gave
me back something that's not good like

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what do you like what do you even
do with that right like you don't

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understand why it gave you that result
do you really understand it even what do

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you even understand what to tell it
to try to get it to do something different

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but to your point like if you actually
wa if you actually watch what it's doing

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um and and and then and then you you
have the grounding you know kind of that

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leg of the of your ear or your F um if
you have that grounding then you can be

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Oh, I see what it's doing. I see where
it made the mistake. I see where it went

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sideways. And then you're all of a
sudden able to intervene and able say,

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"No, no, that's not what I meant.
Do this other thing." Right? And so, and

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again, this is this this this is a big
part of having having the actual kind

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of, you know, synergistic relationship.

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Um, is that you understand?
And by the way, look, I mean, this is like

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everything I'm saying is, you know,
everything everything that we're saying

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right now also is the same as if you're
working with human beings, right? Like,

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you know, if you and I are colleagues
and I, you know, would ask you to do

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something, you come back with something
completely different. Like, I I do need

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to understand what was happening in your
head, right? in order to in order to be

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able to get you need to give you fe give
you feedback, right? If I just tell you,

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oh that's wrong, it doesn't like nothing
happens. I need to actually understand I

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need to have theory of mind, right?
I need to understand what you were

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thinking in order to really give you
the right feedback. Um and so and and you

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know and again the great thing with AI
is AI will happily sit there and explain

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all day long why it's doing what it's
doing. It'll you know it'll happily

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critique itself, you know,
and you can do this by the way

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00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,957
a very fun thing where you can have have
one AI critique the other AI, right? um

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00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,117
which is another thing which is like
you have one AI write the code, you have

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another AI debug the code and so you
can actually use you can play the AI off

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against each other and get them to argue
with each other. Um and yeah, the these

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are all these are all the kinds
of skills that are going to become I think

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incredibly valuable. >> I think
people call those LLM councils.

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Yes, >> they're talking to each other.

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00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:22,317
>> Yeah, that's right. That's right.

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00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:24,317
>> I do feel like if
I were like I'm I have

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no design background. I've always wanted
to design. I I've always wanted to be a

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00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:31,117
great designer. Uh it feels like that's
the hardest one to learn of all these

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three by just watching and talking,
right? because there's a lot of exposure

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hours as as folks have used this term
just like how do you learn to be a great

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designer that feels like that's going
to be really hard and valuable. So, my my

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true confession is I've always
kind of wanted to be a cartoonist,

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but I have no like art skills.

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But as we're talking,
I'm like, it might be