WEBVTT

00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.677
I remember there were times with the
thing I needed it would cost like $50

00:00:03.760 --> 00:00:07.037
and it was just like it was it was
inconceivable that I could afford it. I

00:00:07.120 --> 00:00:10.157
mean like honestly Oculus owes more to

00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:14.957
the iPhone than anything else. I mean
like if the iPhone wouldn't have existed

00:00:15.040 --> 00:00:19.197
there wouldn't have been broken iPhones
for me to buy, unlock, repair and sell

00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:21.437
on eBay. Like and I because I made tens

00:00:21.520 --> 00:00:24.397
of thousands of dollars as a teenager on

00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:28.637
that on that side hustle. Like like
if if that had not happened then Oculus

00:00:28.720 --> 00:00:29.837
probably wouldn't exist today.

00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:33.080
>> That's it.

00:00:36.640 --> 00:00:40.717
>> What's up? We got Palmer Lucky on
the podcast. Palmer is a billionaire. He

00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:45.197
created Oculus which he sold to Facebook.
He's created and which is now

00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.677
one of the biggest like government. They
make weapons for the government. And um

00:00:49.760 --> 00:00:53.357
super interesting guy. I'm going to call
it right now. I think this is a alltime

00:00:53.440 --> 00:00:56.317
episode. I don't know what's I don't
you know you guys know I don't hype it up

00:00:56.400 --> 00:01:00.317
like that unless it's legit. This was an
Alzheimer episode. Sam, what are some of

00:01:00.400 --> 00:01:01.437
the things that we talked about?

00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:05.037
>> So early on we asked him basically
what he did with his money. So he made

00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:08.797
hundreds of millions of dollars at the
age of like 23 or something like that.

00:01:08.880 --> 00:01:11.837
And we said where did you put your money?
And he was very clear on what he

00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:15.117
did with it. Uh he talked about some
of his early crypto investments. So he

00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.597
bought uh crypto way way early like
in 2010 I think he said. He talked about

00:01:19.680 --> 00:01:23.517
how he was making minimum wage and then
became a billionaire like four or five

00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:25.277
years after just making minimum wage.

00:01:25.360 --> 00:01:27.837
What else? >> Uh we talked
about a couple different

00:01:27.920 --> 00:01:31.357
things where he likes to hang out on
the internet. We're like, "Dude, where do

00:01:31.440 --> 00:01:32.557
how do you know about all this stuff?

00:01:32.640 --> 00:01:35.517
Where do you learn this stuff? What are
your subreddits? What are you what are

00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:38.317
you listening to and reading cuz I need
to start doing some of that." So he told

00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:39.917
us some of his favorite ways to go there.

00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:43.197
>> Do you remember he actually said
a Facebook group that he liked and he

00:01:43.280 --> 00:01:45.517
actually named the Facebook group which
I have a feeling it's going to get a lot

00:01:45.600 --> 00:01:49.517
more popular. And then
um yeah, he talked about

00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:53.677
basically like is World War III gonna
happen, right? He's he's supplying, you

00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:57.677
know, uh his company builds tech
for the defense department, Department of

00:01:57.760 --> 00:02:00.877
Defense. And so is World War II going
to happen? Is there going to be a nuke?

00:02:00.960 --> 00:02:03.517
What is a tactical nuke? >> Well,
you asked him a very specific

00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:06.717
question. You go, is Russia going to drop
a nuclear bomb? And his perspective

00:02:06.800 --> 00:02:08.477
is interesting.
I thought it was a good question.

00:02:08.560 --> 00:02:13.037
>> And then the best part was we said,
"All right, you sold Oculus and then you

00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:16.477
created Anderil, which is an even bigger
success. I think it's like valued at $8

00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.077
billion or something. But there was many
years in between. Did you consider doing

00:02:20.160 --> 00:02:23.677
any other ideas? And he opened up and he
was like, "Yeah, actually there were

00:02:23.760 --> 00:02:27.757
these two or three other ideas. He had
an idea about uh creating a new kind of

00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:30.317
prison. He had an idea that would try to

00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:34.877
solve obesity. Uh he had he had a couple
ideas and we go into depth brainstorming

00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:38.717
with him. So he had it all, man. He
had the the crazy backstory, the success

00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:43.277
story, but he also brought ideas. And then
he also argued with us about why he

00:02:43.360 --> 00:02:47.917
flies coach even though he's
a billionaire and um why he may or may not

00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:49.997
get into a fight with Jason Calacanis.

00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:53.677
And so this episode had it all.
Had fighting, had ideas, had success

00:02:53.760 --> 00:02:57.837
stories. It's got it all. All right,
enjoy this episode with Palmer Lucky. I

00:02:57.920 --> 00:03:00.717
I don't know. You don't need too much of
an intro, but I'll do it anyways. Palmer

00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.797
Lucky is here. Um created Oculus,

00:03:04.880 --> 00:03:10.557
created Anderil. Uh really interesting
dude. And uh and I think you know we

00:03:10.640 --> 00:03:14.317
have a bunch of topics so I'm not going
to kind of belabor the intro. Sam, I

00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.997
know you've been itching. We we just
you probably can't say the DM you you you

00:03:18.080 --> 00:03:21.117
sent to try to get Palmer on here.
You really wanted this man on the podcast.

00:03:21.200 --> 00:03:23.277
Why? My my first question is to you Sam.

00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.237
Why? >> So Palmer, I am like the king of
left-handed compliments. At least that's

00:03:28.320 --> 00:03:31.277
what they say about me. But I I mean
them as full-handed compliments or

00:03:31.360 --> 00:03:35.597
right-handed compliments, but basically
I love freaks. I love weirdos. I love

00:03:35.680 --> 00:03:38.157
extremists. not like in the political

00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:39.917
sense, but in the sense of like people

00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:42.797
who just go all in on stuff and or just

00:03:42.880 --> 00:03:45.757
passionate about maybe like nerdy or

00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:51.117
unconventional things and you go all in
on things and I love that. I love people

00:03:51.200 --> 00:03:54.797
even if I don't like what they're going
going all in on. I I'm crazy fascinated

00:03:54.880 --> 00:03:57.677
by that. And you seem one of those guys
who just goes all in on things. You've

00:03:57.760 --> 00:04:01.357
done a lot at a young age and I like
weirdos and I I put you in that in that

00:04:01.440 --> 00:04:03.997
category. >> Thank you.
I'm happy to be happy to be a

00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.357
weirdo. You know, I'd rather be I'd
rather either I'd rather be a person

00:04:07.440 --> 00:04:12.797
that uh that that people think ill or
or or well of than somebody nobody thinks

00:04:12.880 --> 00:04:15.917
of at all. >> I think well of you,
by the way. I think well of you.

00:04:16.000 --> 00:04:19.437
>> Sam had a poster at his office that
was like for his employees he was like let

00:04:19.520 --> 00:04:22.477
your freak flag fly that was like,
you know, one of like, you know, corporate

00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:25.117
values are typically like integrity and

00:04:25.200 --> 00:04:29.837
like determination and his was like be
a freak. Um all right. So, so let's start

00:04:29.920 --> 00:04:31.837
with um I I don't know. Let's start with

00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:33.277
some of the kind of we're going to try

00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:39.197
to as much we can avoid VR and avoid
the Facebook stuff because mostly just

00:04:39.280 --> 00:04:42.237
because you've talked about it a bunch
of places. I'm frankly I'm interested

00:04:42.320 --> 00:04:46.317
because I am actually a VR fanboy, but Sam
has has tried to forbid me from from

00:04:46.400 --> 00:04:48.397
asking those questions. So, we're going
to leave that at the end if I get a

00:04:48.480 --> 00:04:52.477
little extra time. But this is a podcast
that started. It's called My First

00:04:52.560 --> 00:04:55.517
Million because we're interested
in money and we think it's really funny

00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:59.517
that people are tap like money's like,
you know, the Silicon Valley things you

00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:01.437
have to pretend you
don't like money and like

00:05:01.520 --> 00:05:02.237
>> Oh, I know what you're talking about.

00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:05.197
Yeah. You know, we're we're not doing it
here for the money. You know, this money

00:05:05.280 --> 00:05:08.637
money's you know, money is not the real
objective. I actually tell my own

00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:12.317
employees at onboarding that if if
you work at a place where your boss is

00:05:12.400 --> 00:05:15.197
saying that, you should be worried
because it's it's one thing it's one

00:05:15.280 --> 00:05:17.917
thing to say that to the press. It's
one thing to say that in your marketing

00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:22.077
materials, but you you know if if your
employees don't believe that at the end

00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:25.837
of the day you're trying to make their
job a fiscally responsible decision, if

00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.197
you're effectively telling them you
could be making more money elsewhere and

00:05:29.280 --> 00:05:31.997
your financial success is not my

00:05:32.080 --> 00:05:35.517
priority, you should be concerned.

00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:37.517
>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And you kind of did

00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.717
the best of both. like for all the kind
of ironic people who are like we're

00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:41.837
trying to change the world with this

00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:44.557
like you know HR onboarding software you

00:05:44.640 --> 00:05:47.997
know uh you actually kind of did and

00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:52.317
still made a bunch of money doing it.
So you know it's not like an eitheror uh

00:05:52.400 --> 00:05:55.997
100%. I mean when when I started Oculus
it was not because I thought it would be

00:05:56.080 --> 00:05:58.397
the thing that would makes the most money.
There had never been a successful

00:05:58.480 --> 00:06:02.317
VR company in history to be clear and I
did it because it was something I was

00:06:02.400 --> 00:06:05.677
really passionate about. Now that said,
one of the things I'm most proud of in

00:06:05.760 --> 00:06:08.077
my whole career is that everyone who

00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:09.997
worked at Oculus achieved financial

00:06:10.080 --> 00:06:15.197
independence because we were able to build
something incredible. And I like I

00:06:15.280 --> 00:06:18.397
feel great that everyone who was part
of that mission and who supported me early

00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:20.557
on was able to make a bunch of money.

00:06:20.640 --> 00:06:25.357
And then a lot of them have gone on to do
incredible things. But uh Oculus was

00:06:25.440 --> 00:06:28.637
not was not was not done because I
thought it was the best way to make

00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:31.837
money. It's cuz I thought it really
was going to be the best way to change the

00:06:31.920 --> 00:06:35.277
world in the long run. Android was a
little different. I I that one it wasn't

00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.557
just, oh, this will be fun. I want to do
something really cool. Android was like

00:06:38.640 --> 00:06:41.357
I felt like I had to do it or things
were things were going to go really

00:06:41.440 --> 00:06:45.437
poorly. So, more more of a more
of a stick than a carrot on that one.

00:06:45.520 --> 00:06:48.237
>> How much did you
make off the Oculus sale?

00:06:48.320 --> 00:06:50.317
>> Oh man, I probably
shouldn't say because

00:06:50.400 --> 00:06:54.157
this is also one of those complex things
where you know there was the there was

00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.157
the sale. So there's what they believe
they called the merger consideration

00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.877
form of uh you know portion of the of

00:07:00.960 --> 00:07:04.717
the of the uh compensation and then they

00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.237
you know you cut an employment deal
where they say we're going to pay you

00:07:08.320 --> 00:07:11.917
you know this much for 5 years. I can
say that I I was locked I was locked up

00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:15.597
on a 5-year vesting schedule. So typical
would be four. Most of our employees

00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:17.277
were four. I got locked up for five cuz

00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.637
I was a key guy. And uh that that money

00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.157
technically is not for the acquisition.

00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.157
It's just what you're being paid for.

00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:30.317
Um, >> yep. So, and of and of course, you
know, you you can't you can't pretend you

00:07:30.400 --> 00:07:33.597
can't say they're the same thing or they
they're supposed to be treated differently

00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:36.637
>> tax-wise, compensation wise. And then,
of course, there's the bonuses. We had

00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:40.717
we had an earnout that was a it was a it
was a huge earnout. It was hundreds of

00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:43.357
millions of dollars for the founders
of the company if we could hit certain

00:07:43.440 --> 00:07:46.397
sales targets and user uh user like

00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:48.717
hours hours of time targets. And we

00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:50.877
actually had four years to hit those

00:07:50.960 --> 00:07:56.077
targets. and we we hit them within less
than two years. So, we actually did it's

00:07:56.160 --> 00:07:58.877
kind of funny when people like, "Oh man,
the acquisition must not be going as

00:07:58.960 --> 00:08:02.317
well as people expect." It's like,
"No, we maxed out the top bracket of our

00:08:02.400 --> 00:08:07.117
earnout uh because we we're we were
kicking butt." But, uh anyway, I it was

00:08:07.200 --> 00:08:08.397
in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:11.597
I can tell you that in the healthy
hundreds of millions of dollars.

00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:14.397
>> Were you a bunch
of people who listen to this

00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:17.197
>> Oh, sorry. I'll go real quick.
A bunch of people who listen to this are

00:08:17.280 --> 00:08:21.357
founders and and like would want to sell
their company someday. Uh both me and

00:08:21.440 --> 00:08:24.557
Sam, we started this podcast right when
we both exited our companies because I

00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:26.797
was like, "All right, we're kind
of earning out." Well, we can't start

00:08:26.880 --> 00:08:29.437
another company right now, but like,
"Oh, we can start a podcast. That's that

00:08:29.520 --> 00:08:33.917
sounds kind of fun." And um and actually
just yesterday, I just closed on another

00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.277
sale of a company, but these are small
scale compared to what you did, right?

00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:40.477
Like, congratulations. >> Thank you.
But you you sold for I don't

00:08:40.560 --> 00:08:43.677
know two or three billion bucks.
How does that happen? Somebody, you know,

00:08:43.760 --> 00:08:46.397
Zuck comes over to your house and is like,
"I'll give you $3 billion for

00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:50.797
this." like how does that how does that
even how does that conversation go down

00:08:50.880 --> 00:08:54.877
um when when when it when you're talking
about the sort of like the grand slam

00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:58.397
type of outcomes? >> Well,
it's a it's a long story, but you

00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:01.277
know I I know I know Sam didn't
want to talk all about VR, but

00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:03.917
>> No, I this shit's interesting to me.

00:09:04.000 --> 00:09:08.817
>> Oh, great. We we don't won't talk about
VR optics and and the metaverse then.

00:09:08.900 --> 00:09:11.757
[snorts] Uh but I I guess on on the
business side of it, the interesting

00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.317
thing about the acquisition is that we

00:09:14.400 --> 00:09:19.117
didn't have any of intention of selling
initially when we first had our

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.037
conversation with Facebook and I think
that really was was a positive thing uh

00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:25.837
because actually first time we talked I

00:09:25.920 --> 00:09:30.397
think basically we were offered
a billion dollars to sell uh and we said

00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:34.157
no we're not interested. We think this
company's easily going to surpass that

00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:38.637
value. We think it's not going to be
a problem for us to make more money and uh

00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:41.837
you know we we we're happy to work
with you guys but we we don't want to be

00:09:41.920 --> 00:09:45.357
>> by the way was that easy to say no to
a billion dollars. I mean you started this

00:09:45.440 --> 00:09:49.117
thing like on a Kickstarter dude like
you know at some point were you like

00:09:49.200 --> 00:09:52.237
>> was it hard to say no or was it
not not an issue at that point?

00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:56.557
>> It wasn't an issue for me and I think
I think different people had different

00:09:56.640 --> 00:10:00.797
opinions. I mean, look, if you if you
look over my career, I've made a lot of

00:10:00.880 --> 00:10:03.757
similar decisions. Like, when I
was starting Oculus, when I was deciding

00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:06.877
whether I was going to do a Kickstarter
or work for someone else, I actually had

00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:10.157
a job on a job offer on the table from

00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:14.557
uh from Sony to run a PlayStation VR lab
uh you know, out of PlayStation Group.

00:10:14.640 --> 00:10:17.757
And when I turned them down,
they actually doubled the offer and then I

00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:21.277
had to turn them down again. And a lot
of people were wondering, how could you

00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.517
have done that? You know, how could you
have decided to do your own thing? It

00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.717
was so much higher risk.
And I think that a lot of it is is social

00:10:26.800 --> 00:10:30.557
programming. You know, I grew up
watching media that conditioned me to

00:10:30.640 --> 00:10:33.517
believe that when you have an opportunity,
you have to take it when

00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:37.357
you know when you almost have to follow
the narrative. And looking back, I'm not

00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.437
sure I could have done anything else.

00:10:39.520 --> 00:10:42.477
Like, could I have stayed in school
instead of starting Oculus once I

00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:46.397
realized I had this breakthrough in VR
technology? I think I could not have

00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:49.917
possibly done it. There's it it it's
almost to the level of free will not

00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:52.237
existing. I could not have chosen that.

00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:53.757
Could I have gone and worked for Sony?

00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:56.797
Looking back, I don't think so. I think
I couldn't have made that decision. And

00:10:56.880 --> 00:11:00.077
I think it's actually the same thing
with that billion-dollar offer. Like I

00:11:00.160 --> 00:11:02.877
almost could not have said yes. You

00:11:02.960 --> 00:11:07.197
know, like that that first offer.
I like narratively it makes no sense. It

00:11:07.280 --> 00:11:10.797
doesn't align with what I've been
trained is what you do when you're a you

00:11:10.880 --> 00:11:14.557
know, when you're a freethinking
iconoclast. And so I I couldn't have

00:11:14.640 --> 00:11:19.037
done it. I think what what what happened
is a few things changed over over time

00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.877
after that initial offer. you know, we
didn't talk to to Facebook for for for a

00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.877
few months after that. Um, and a few
things happened. One, it became clear

00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.837
that our competition was not only

00:11:29.920 --> 00:11:34.237
serious, but was going to be putting
massive dollars into their success.

00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:38.077
Something not a lot of people remember,
uh, but I certainly do cuz it was a big

00:11:38.160 --> 00:11:42.477
deal in my mind. The day that we
announced, no, the day we fin, it wasn't

00:11:42.560 --> 00:11:46.077
the day we announced, the day we
finalized the Facebook acquisition was

00:11:46.160 --> 00:11:50.477
the same day that Sony announced
PlayStation VR. And we had known that it

00:11:50.560 --> 00:11:53.517
was coming for a while. You we we
had actually even shown each other

00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:57.437
prototypes and stuff. But it really
reinforced this was a serious thing. We

00:11:57.520 --> 00:12:00.077
were going to have some of the biggest
games companies in the world putting

00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:03.837
hundreds of millions of dollars into
competing with us. And uh you know that

00:12:03.920 --> 00:12:08.237
that made I think our that made the the
pitch that Facebook came back with which

00:12:08.320 --> 00:12:11.757
is listen you maybe you could make more
money as an independent company but if

00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.997
you're with us we're going to make VR
happen much faster. So you know yes you

00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.677
you might make more money but you're
going to go much slower than if we were

00:12:19.760 --> 00:12:23.597
able to artificially supercharge your
growth far beyond even what you could do

00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:27.357
with venture capital. And they they were
willing to commit billions of dollars a

00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:30.477
year for a period of a decade or more.

00:12:30.560 --> 00:12:33.757
And that's that's a really tough thing
to turn down when you really believe in

00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:36.477
something. >> And is this
like literally Zuck coming

00:12:36.560 --> 00:12:39.437
to your house and talking to you about
this or is there like an army of lawyers

00:12:39.520 --> 00:12:43.357
in between you guys that are like,
you know, bankers and and corp dev people?

00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.877
>> It was a very small number of people.
I mean, it was it was I mean I I think

00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.877
that the the the the lawyers and the
accountants are much more likely to be

00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:54.797
involved in a deal when the deal
is contingent on uh you know your your

00:12:54.880 --> 00:12:58.717
revenue and your multiples and your P&Ls
like that. that that's where you need to

00:12:58.800 --> 00:13:02.797
drag those people in to really make
a an assessment. This was such a highlevel

00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:06.557
bet. It's not like, oh, I think that you
have this margin on your headset and

00:13:06.640 --> 00:13:08.077
you've sold this many development kits.

00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:11.437
It was so early and the technology is so
naysay. The real bet is, do you believe

00:13:11.520 --> 00:13:15.197
in the metaverse? Do you believe
that there's going to be a virtual world

00:13:15.280 --> 00:13:17.677
parallel to our own where you're living
and you're working and you're playing?

00:13:17.760 --> 00:13:20.477
And then most importantly, do you
believe this is the best team in the

00:13:20.560 --> 00:13:24.237
world to do it? And I didn't know this
at the time, but I found out later that

00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:28.877
Mark had been going around and talking
to various uh university research labs,

00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:32.157
government research labs, talking
to a you seeing what other companies were

00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:34.797
doing. And their conclusion was we were

00:13:34.880 --> 00:13:39.277
way ahead of everyone else and that if
if this was going to happen, this shift

00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:44.077
to immersive computing, the final
computing platform arguably, uh that we

00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:47.117
were the people in the best position
to do it. And that's not something that a

00:13:47.200 --> 00:13:49.117
lawyer can really give an opinion on.

00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.677
It's not something that an accountant
can put a value on. It's it's it's a

00:13:51.760 --> 00:13:55.437
it's a very high level bet.
>> What was your personal financial

00:13:55.520 --> 00:13:58.157
situation when you turned
down the billion dollar offer?

00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:03.197
>> So, at the time uh early early
in Oculus, so I I mean I started Oculus

00:14:03.280 --> 00:14:06.797
using my own money and at that time
I was working a minimum wage job and

00:14:06.880 --> 00:14:10.237
living in a 19 ft camper trailer. I
was 19 years old. So for people who aren't

00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:14.237
familiar with the story to that degree,
I mean I had almost no money. literally

00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:18.717
had a few hundred dollars in my bank
account because I spent all the money

00:14:18.800 --> 00:14:23.117
that I made putting myself through
school and working on virtual reality

00:14:23.200 --> 00:14:27.117
technology and I was extraordinarily
and I I had a minimum wage job. I was also

00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.037
fixing computers on the side for a while.
I'd been buying broken iPhones,

00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:35.037
put fixing them and unlocking them,
selling those for spare cash. And so I

00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.797
you know I I'd burned a lot of money on

00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:39.917
my on my on my nutty hobby. Um, and when

00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:44.317
we started Oculus, uh, we we didn't
pay ourselves very much. By the time the

00:14:44.400 --> 00:14:48.477
acquisition happened, I had given myself
a raise. We had decided that nobody in

00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:52.477
the company was going to make over
$100,000. We called it the 100k club.

00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:55.197
So, we're we're paying the CEO $100,000.

00:14:55.280 --> 00:14:59.837
Uh, I was getting paid $100,000.
And, uh, to me that that actually felt

00:14:59.920 --> 00:15:02.077
incredible. I was like, "Wow, $100,000.

00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:06.477
This is absolutely crazy. I can I can
afford anything." You're like, you know

00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:10.877
how many cell phone how many iPhones I'd
have to fix to make $100,000? [laughter]

00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:12.877
Heck of a lot. >> Cuz you
were fixing iPhones and like

00:15:12.960 --> 00:15:15.437
scrubbing boats or something.
I read. Is that what you were doing?

00:15:15.520 --> 00:15:18.797
>> Yeah. I mean, when I started working on
VR stuff, I was I worked for a few years

00:15:18.880 --> 00:15:23.677
in a boatyard. So, yes. Yeah. Scrubbing
boats, repainting repainting the the the

00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:25.757
the bottom paint, uh, sweeping the

00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:27.597
boatyard, you know, that that that type

00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:30.877
of stuff. Um, so so so to me, the money

00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:35.597
was not was not a huge motivating factor.
Also because maybe maybe too

00:15:35.680 --> 00:15:39.357
optimistically I believed Oculus
was going to be worth tens of billions or

00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.517
hundreds of billions of dollars. So it

00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:44.957
really wasn't the the I contrary to what

00:15:45.040 --> 00:15:49.277
I said before, but it wasn't the money
that was motivating me to make the sale.

00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:53.357
The it was the pitch. Hey, we're going
to get you billions of dollars right

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.957
now. like not not the not
the compensation for the for the for the

00:15:57.040 --> 00:16:00.237
acquisition, but we're going to give
you your your organization billions of

00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:03.917
dollars a year to go out and make
virtual reality actually happen. And

00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.837
that's what you're going to need
to compete with Google, to compete with

00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:12.157
Sony, to compete with Microsoft.
All of which have seen what you're doing,

00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:15.117
bought in, like they've drunk your
Kool-Aid, but they're going to try to

00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.477
kill you over it. Uh that that was kind
of the situation we were in. And

00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:22.717
Facebook was one of the very few
companies that had a strong incentive to

00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:26.477
make virtual reality and immersive
computing at large to come about as

00:16:26.560 --> 00:16:30.317
quickly as possible because unlike
Google, unlike Microsoft, they did not

00:16:30.400 --> 00:16:34.157
benefit from the status quo in the
hardware space. You know, if we kept

00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:37.197
using mobile phones and normal computers

00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:41.597
for, you know, the next 20, 30 years,
Google and Microsoft are going to do

00:16:41.680 --> 00:16:45.517
just fine. Like they're already
the winners in that paradigm. If you can

00:16:45.600 --> 00:16:47.997
shake everything up and force a reset

00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:50.557
with immersive computing, AR, VR, MR,

00:16:50.640 --> 00:16:55.437
whatever you want to call it, uh it
could be that Microsoft is one of the

00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:59.197
top players and it could be that Apple
and Google are are some of the top

00:16:59.280 --> 00:17:02.797
players, but it's unlikely that all
of them are going to remain the dominant

00:17:02.880 --> 00:17:05.437
players. And that's an opening for a
company like Facebook to come in. And

00:17:05.520 --> 00:17:09.597
even if they're not first place, forcing
the reset puts them in second or third

00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:14.237
place instead of being totally
subservient to the operating system uh

00:17:14.320 --> 00:17:17.437
vendors and to the hardware vendors.
So it it was one of those things where

00:17:17.520 --> 00:17:21.117
there were other companies that were
interested. None of them actually had a

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:25.197
strong incentive to put billions of
dollars into VR on an ongoing basis. And

00:17:25.280 --> 00:17:28.477
I mean you can see Google killed their
VR program. First they killed their PC

00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:30.077
VR team, then they killed their mobile

00:17:30.160 --> 00:17:32.717
VR team. Microsoft is winding down their

00:17:32.800 --> 00:17:37.437
internal efforts. I mean, it's a it's
a it's a it's a it's a tough business and

00:17:37.520 --> 00:17:40.877
I'm not convinced that Oculus would
still be around if we hadn't had those

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.397
resources. >> I'm going
to uh move on from like asking

00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.877
you these money questions, but I want
to ask one more because I do think it's

00:17:46.960 --> 00:17:48.797
fascinating because you went from like

00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.117
maybe not having a lot to having a lot

00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:53.917
and you're also like an oddball which I

00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:57.117
like. did when I sold my business, I put

00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.677
everything into bonds and just Vanguard
total index funds and just did like a

00:18:01.760 --> 00:18:05.757
normal 8020 split and then eventually
some real estate and then HubSpot stock

00:18:05.840 --> 00:18:09.917
and just normal like basic stuff. What
did you do with your money and what have

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.437
you cuz I know you bought like a a marina
I think or you tried to buy it. I

00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:16.877
don't know if it went through uh but like
what does like someone like you do

00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.277
with that amount of uh liquidity?

00:18:19.360 --> 00:18:22.717
>> So most of it I did what you're talking
about. I generally don't believe in

00:18:22.800 --> 00:18:27.437
trying to beat the market through market
market transactions. I mean, it's one

00:18:27.520 --> 00:18:30.397
thing to build like I think you build
wealth by building companies. That's

00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:33.757
where you should be focusing your effort,
not trying to be smarter than

00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:37.597
all the finance guys who are sitting
around and using every tool at their

00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:41.277
disposal to try and game the financial
market. So, actually, yeah, Van,

00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:43.837
Vanguard Funds, like Vanguard 500, total

00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.637
index funds. Um, my my grandpa taught me
a lot about investing and about how you

00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:49.677
shouldn't try to beat the market.

00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:52.957
probably the the my investment
philosophy is informed mostly by John

00:18:53.040 --> 00:18:55.917
Bogle's little black book on investing
where he's like look you know keep your

00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.277
fees low keep your costs low and just go

00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:03.037
with the market and you know if if the
market goes so poorly that I become poor

00:19:03.120 --> 00:19:08.157
then United States has bigger problems
than uh than than than the market. Um so

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.797
that was that was that was most what
I did. I bought the marina not as a

00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.357
financial investment. It was actually
it was one of the only marinas it so this

00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.757
is getting a little into the weeds
on something probably very few people care

00:19:17.840 --> 00:19:20.237
about but just so you know um in

00:19:20.320 --> 00:19:23.277
California almost all marinas the water

00:19:23.360 --> 00:19:27.037
is owned by the state or by the feds and

00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:29.517
then they do long-term leases like 30 or

00:19:29.600 --> 00:19:34.077
40 years to operators that are allowed
to operate those marinas and they might

00:19:34.160 --> 00:19:37.837
own let's say the parking lot
the operator but they do not own the water

00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.037
they do not own the docks it's just
a long-term lease and they redo that over

00:19:41.120 --> 00:19:43.757
there's only a small handful of marinas

00:19:43.840 --> 00:19:45.917
in the entire state of California where

00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:48.877
the underlying land under the water and

00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:51.837
the water itself is deed to a private

00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:56.317
title. And the marina that I bought
was one of those. And uh you know without

00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:01.117
getting into without getting into you
know my my my whole seasteading delusion

00:20:01.200 --> 00:20:04.797
I think that you're going to end up
needing uh if you want to have transport

00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:08.717
fairies that are operating from land out
to international waters. You do not want

00:20:08.800 --> 00:20:11.997
to be in a position where the place
you're doing that from is totally

00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:16.717
dependent on state government
bureaucrats uh choosing to renew your

00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:20.477
lease on a particular on a particular
marina. So that was actually that was

00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:24.477
actually a purchase that'll it'll it'll
it'll pay off someday. Uh, you'll see.

00:20:24.560 --> 00:20:28.157
You all see. [laughter] >> See,
I bought my house just like I like

00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:31.117
the the walk-in closet was nice and I
was like, "Oh, that's a good enough

00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.397
reason for me. I didn't have to like,
you know, go into international waters

00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:37.597
uh to make >> Well, in my case,
I I did buy I mean, I

00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.037
did I did a few things like as soon
as I had money, I immediately started

00:20:41.120 --> 00:20:43.757
learning to fly helicopters for real
because I'd always wanted to be a

00:20:43.840 --> 00:20:47.277
helicopter pilot ever since being
a little kid. So, like it was like it was

00:20:47.360 --> 00:20:51.437
like 2 weeks after the wire completed,
I was I was flying helicopters. So, that

00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:53.917
was really cool. Um, I bought a 69

00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:58.477
Mustang convertible. That was really cool.
And, uh, I bought a first

00:20:58.560 --> 00:21:00.877
generation Tesla Model S. That was cool.

00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.757
And then I bought a house for my parents.
You know, it's like the the

00:21:03.840 --> 00:21:07.597
it's like the basketball player contract
move. You know, you you get the money,

00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:11.357
you buy the you buy the house for for
your parents. And then I bought a house

00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:13.197
for myself that was close to my grandpa

00:21:13.280 --> 00:21:18.797
actually. Uh, and unfortunately, we then
ended up having to move up to Silicon

00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:21.277
Valley because of the acquisition.
And then he passed away while I was up

00:21:21.360 --> 00:21:25.197
there. So, one one of my one of my
regrets, but I'm still in that house.

00:21:25.280 --> 00:21:30.317
>> Wow. Uh, okay. That's amazing. And, um,
one other thing I had seen was that you

00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.157
I don't know if this is even a real
thing or it's like some Twitter fake,

00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:38.157
you know, fake photo or whatever.
Did you buy Bitcoin in 2013?

00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:39.917
>> No. No. I bought Bitcoin much earlier

00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.597
than that. I was a very 20 2013 is when

00:21:43.680 --> 00:21:46.397
I was on I I was in the Forbes 30 under

00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.677
30 and they asked everyone on it for a

00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:53.517
quote for the print edition and it
was the theme was what is your advice to

00:21:53.600 --> 00:21:56.077
other young founders and my quote was

00:21:56.160 --> 00:22:00.637
buy more Bitcoin. Um and but I I'm I've
actually been involved in Bitcoin since

00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.797
before there were any exchanges.
I like I I was a true OG on the

00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.117
bitcointtalk.org forums. There were
no exchanges. you could only do direct

00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.197
transactions for goods. I actually
sold a banner ad on my game console

00:22:13.280 --> 00:22:17.517
modification forum. It was a oneweek
banner ad on this forum with almost no

00:22:17.600 --> 00:22:19.837
traffic and I sold it for 400 Bitcoin.

00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:21.917
Uh and then I ended up uh I ended up

00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:25.677
buying someone's uh Samsung Galaxy

00:22:25.760 --> 00:22:27.597
Vibrant, which was the T-Mobile variant

00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.197
of the first Galaxy phone, uh for 800

00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:35.597
Bitcoin, I believe, uh which at the time
was, you know, well well under a dollar

00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:38.877
per bitcoin. Right. >> So I'
I've actually been in 16 million

00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.717
very early days. >> 16.
Oh my god. How do you how So like

00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:47.197
all right, you we had Biology, you know,
Biology uh on the pod and like he was

00:22:47.280 --> 00:22:49.757
one of these guys where he would like
give an analogy. He was like, "Oh, you

00:22:49.840 --> 00:22:53.597
know, Bitcoin is kind of like the Battle
of Tames." And I'm like, "Bro, I you

00:22:53.680 --> 00:22:57.117
can't you I need an analogy for your
analogy. Like I can't tell you about the

00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.557
Battle of Tames in World War II. Like I
can't have that conversation with you."

00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:05.357
And you're a little bit like that where
you're talking about like uh you just

00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:09.277
like threw in a few lines like oh this
gaming forum I have when I was like well

00:23:09.360 --> 00:23:12.317
I could go down that path but and then
you're talking about like this boat

00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:15.837
marina thing and I'm like that that's
a whole conversation like how on earth you

00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:20.397
discovered that and then I'm sure you
have strong opinion you just have a very

00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:21.917
and then now obviously you're doing

00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:28.120
government stuff then you've done
uh and you know a bunch about polit

00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:33.597
becoming so wellversed and also so
opinionated on such a broad set of

00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:36.797
topics >> because you
have to most of the time

00:23:36.880 --> 00:23:40.317
like the the best things that I've done
that I have done in my career have not

00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:43.197
been going super super deep on one

00:23:43.280 --> 00:23:45.037
vertical and then finding the really

00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:47.597
really hard gains that are at the end of

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.237
a long fight that everyone's made like

00:23:50.320 --> 00:23:52.717
an example here would be uh with just

00:23:52.800 --> 00:23:57.277
like optics technology most people are
fighting way at the end of the spectrum

00:23:57.360 --> 00:24:00.557
where they're trying to like oh we're
using new cutting edge materials that

00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:05.597
increase the ability to control light
more precisely by 2% and you we're

00:24:05.680 --> 00:24:08.797
trying to figure out the physics of how
we can manufacture these polymers. Most

00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:12.157
of my best ideas have not come from that.
They've been from knowing things

00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:16.877
in totally different fields that have
nothing to do with the field or at least

00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.157
people don't think they do and then
pulling ideas from those fields and

00:24:20.240 --> 00:24:23.677
applying them in a new way. like
the the the really key thing that made the

00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:25.997
Oculus Rift work as just one example.

00:24:26.080 --> 00:24:30.317
Rather than focusing on trying to make
these optical stacks that cost thousands

00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.757
of dollars and weighed a bunch
and that was really what was making these

00:24:33.840 --> 00:24:37.357
headsets uh weigh many pounds and cost
tens of thousands of dollars was the

00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:41.037
high-end optical stack that was able
to project images on your retina with

00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:43.677
minimal distortion. But you needed,
you know, a bunch of lenses. They're all

00:24:43.760 --> 00:24:47.037
very, very expensive, very high precision.
What I did is figure out that

00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:50.397
you could just render a distorted image.

00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:52.237
basically render your image, distort it

00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:57.437
on the graphics card uh in the inverse
way that the lens distorted it. And then

00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.717
basically you would render an image that
looks terrible on the screen, but after

00:25:00.800 --> 00:25:04.397
viewing it through the lens that I had,
which was optimized for high field of

00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:08.157
view, low weight, low cost, but not
optimized to have low distortion, low

00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.317
chromatic aberration or geometric
aberration, uh it would come out looking

00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:16.237
looking perfect. And like that that's
something where an optical engineer,

00:25:16.320 --> 00:25:19.437
someone who's working on just optics,
would not would not think of that. uh

00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:23.757
you know that's very much like a a a
a software idea but the software people

00:25:23.840 --> 00:25:28.557
are also not necessarily thinking
about how they could obsoles expenses

00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:32.317
expensive pieces of optics and of course
there are people who do that do that I

00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:34.957
think that some of the best
entrepreneurs are people who have

00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:40.157
understanding that is sufficient uh
in enough areas to pull from one area and

00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:41.757
solve the biggest problems of another.

00:25:41.840 --> 00:25:46.077
So I I mean I I make it a priority
you asked how do I do it you make it a

00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.557
priority to know a little about a lot.

00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:53.837
So, uh, two questions. One, just go back
to the Bitcoin thing for a second. What

00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.037
how did you get into like why were you
on the Bitcoin talk forums or why did

00:25:57.120 --> 00:26:01.117
you see it even before, you know,
almost anybody? Uh, so what were you doing

00:26:01.200 --> 00:26:05.837
there and why did it catch your eye?
Um, and then, you know, today, 10 years

00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.117
later, there's a whole bunch of people
that are disillusioned by it. They say,

00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:12.557
"Oh, it's all this time's gone by. 10
years didn't work out." Other people are

00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:15.277
more bullish than ever. You know, where
do you stand now? So, what caught your

00:26:15.360 --> 00:26:16.797
eye, and then where do you stand now?

00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.797
So, I mean, I I think I got into Bitcoin

00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:22.237
it would have been mid mid to late 2010.

00:26:22.320 --> 00:26:27.037
Um, and and I I I I was really
fascinated because I I mean, look, I'm a

00:26:27.120 --> 00:26:30.717
guy who was into virtual reality and
the metaverse. This is just adjacent to

00:26:30.800 --> 00:26:33.597
that. It's another super cool, you know,

00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:35.997
cy cyberpunk concept. the idea of, you

00:26:36.080 --> 00:26:38.797
know, a untraceable internet currency

00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:43.357
that is based on only the consensus of all
of the cyber punks who are using it,

00:26:43.440 --> 00:26:47.917
cryptographically verified and secured
with no nation state controlling it or

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.597
issuing it or diluting it
or manipulating like like what what a cool

00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:55.917
thing when you're a when you're an anti-
athority teenager who who who loves who

00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:00.317
loves cyberpunk science fiction. Um,
and so that that it was like I bought into

00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.717
the the very original cool vision, not

00:27:02.800 --> 00:27:07.357
the oh, this is going to be huge for
everybody one, but like this is this is

00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:09.597
this is cyberpunk incarnate. I have to

00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:14.717
be a part of this. Um, and when I
started, uh, like my initial thinking

00:27:14.800 --> 00:27:18.077
was not that it was a good store of value.
That was that's actually been I

00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.957
think the most contentious thing about
crypto is after it started skyrock I I

00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:24.717
didn't buy it because I was speculating.

00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:28.237
Nobody was even thinking about that back
then. It's it's crazy to me to watch all

00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:32.237
these new crypto kids get in. And it
seems like it's all about just having

00:27:32.320 --> 00:27:35.677
having coins, pumping the value, dumping
them. It's really just, you know, these

00:27:35.760 --> 00:27:39.037
this financial markets play that I've
never believed in because I always

00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:42.717
believe in, you know, investing
in the whole market. Um, but to me, it was

00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:47.517
always value as a as a means of moving
wealth around. It's not as a store for

00:27:47.600 --> 00:27:51.837
years or decades. It's a way that you
can move wealth around uh without any

00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:55.837
without being beholdened to any any
centralized authority or centralized

00:27:55.920 --> 00:28:00.237
power. And I think today like even
for all the issues Bitcoin has and people

00:28:00.320 --> 00:28:03.597
you know putting it down because of it
crashing. Well, first of all, every time

00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:08.077
there's a Bitcoin crash, it's like oh no,
it's crashed to only 10x what it was

00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:12.957
two years ago. Every single time.
Every crash is like that. Um but more

00:28:13.040 --> 00:28:14.957
importantly, it's still a good way to

00:28:15.040 --> 00:28:18.237
move value around. And uh that said, my

00:28:18.320 --> 00:28:22.637
prediction in 2013 was that Bitcoin will
go to about $100,000 and then stabilize.

00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.397
I'm sticking with it. I I think I think
it'll get there. I'm I'm not I'm not

00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.557
sure that it in particular has the has
the appropriate utility to reach a

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:35.357
higher store of value. >> And Wow.
Okay. Amazing. And then did you uh

00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:37.917
>> Oh, by the way, I have and I have
to throw out there I'm one of those guys

00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.587
who lost a bunch of coins in the Mount
Gaus hack. Oh, man. I got goued good.

00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:45.597
[laughter] Um, and it was it was one
of those things where there was no like

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.117
looking back everyone's like, "Oh my god,
I can't believe that you know you

00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.277
would have and I had most of my coins in

00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:56.397
in my own wallet. Uh, but I had
a significant amount on on Gaus because

00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:01.117
people were transferring coins to my
Gaus to my Gox account." And uh, now

00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:04.477
everyone's like, "Oh my god, of course
you would never keep your coins in an

00:29:04.560 --> 00:29:07.997
exchange." But like I was 16 years old

00:29:08.080 --> 00:29:11.837
and like you know there was there
was no there was no like idiots guide to

00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:15.437
Bitcoin back then. It was it was the type
of thing you only used if you were

00:29:15.520 --> 00:29:17.837
a crazy a crazy internet nutter.

00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:22.077
>> And so you mentioned forums and I'm
a big forums guy. Like I still I remember

00:29:22.160 --> 00:29:24.317
you know BBS I wasn't like before

00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:29.277
whatever was before BBS that's not
me but I've been on forums and I love

00:29:29.360 --> 00:29:31.597
forums and you talked about >> Amen.

00:29:31.680 --> 00:29:33.837
>> the Bitcoin talk forums.
I went and read

00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:37.917
a bunch of your early posts on the what
was the name of the like >> odd retro?

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.037
>> No, no, no.
The the headset one the headmounted 3D.

00:29:41.120 --> 00:29:44.557
>> Yeah, exactly. Like your old your old
post there. I went and like stalked him

00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:47.837
just to be like cuz I like to see
the origin. I'm like a like what are the

00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:51.597
like archaeologists for like the internet?
I like to go find the original

00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:54.717
>> And so um you know I saw you posting
there and you're like hey I'm trying to

00:29:54.800 --> 00:29:58.397
build this thing. I'm thinking about
doing this. You did a bunch of like kind

00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.397
of really cool crowdsource stuff.
I think you even like asked Reddit like,

00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:04.877
you know, should I buy should we buy
Vive or something [laughter] like that.

00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.557
You did a bunch of cool stuff on forums
and I thought about that and some of the

00:30:08.640 --> 00:30:11.757
like I when I learned poker
I learned it through forums.

00:30:11.840 --> 00:30:14.637
>> Yep. >> If you think
about today like if who's

00:30:14.720 --> 00:30:18.637
the the 16-year-old version of you today,
what forums do you think they're

00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:20.317
hanging out in? What's the thing?

00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.797
Because when you were doing this, this
is 15 years ago. Like VR is still early

00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:28.237
and you were early early early.
Same thing with Bitcoin. You were early

00:30:28.320 --> 00:30:33.517
early. And so what do you think are the
interesting forums today that people are

00:30:33.600 --> 00:30:36.557
hanging out in that you think will
play out over the next decade or so?

00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:40.557
>> And and also what are what are what are
some of your favorite pockets of the web

00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.117
and and forums that you're hanging out in?

00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:47.357
>> I mean much to my chigrin I like I
love forums too. I think they are more or

00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:51.677
less the pinnacle of asynchronous
communication. Like if you are doing

00:30:51.760 --> 00:30:56.157
collaborative pro all of the incentives
are correct like so so I like I I ran a

00:30:56.240 --> 00:30:59.437
forum the mod retro forums. It was a
forum for people who modified vintage

00:30:59.520 --> 00:31:03.277
game consoles in particular with a
focus on turning them into handheld

00:31:03.360 --> 00:31:07.837
self-contained units. So, cutting apart
Nintendo 64s and Super Nintendos and

00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:11.037
PlayStations and then replacing like
the power electronics with modern power

00:31:11.120 --> 00:31:14.317
electronics, running them off
of the latest lithium battery technology,

00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:18.237
although it was Niad back when back when
I started started, you know, working on

00:31:18.320 --> 00:31:22.397
portables. uh you know putting in LCD
screens that were designed for portable

00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:24.157
DVD players and the like and building

00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:27.197
these self-contained units and uh it

00:31:27.280 --> 00:31:29.597
forums are interesting because your your

00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:34.397
currency is is attention but you can
only get attention by getting people to

00:31:34.480 --> 00:31:37.437
come in and you know respond and engage
with you and so there's a strong

00:31:37.520 --> 00:31:41.117
incentive to update people on what
you're doing to to to write really

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.037
interesting things and to you know
get people regularly coming back and

00:31:45.120 --> 00:31:47.757
engaging with your stuff. I mean that
that's the dopamine high, right? it's

00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:49.757
other people care about what I'm doing.

00:31:49.840 --> 00:31:52.957
Today, it's been so algorith, you know,

00:31:53.040 --> 00:31:55.277
algorithmically driven that you don't

00:31:55.360 --> 00:32:00.157
have the same incentives in terms
of long-term sustained engagement and uh,

00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:01.917
you know, collaborating with people.

00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:03.597
There's a lot more incentive to do

00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:06.797
things on your own, do one big push in a

00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.717
form that will cause ordinary people
who are not necessarily technically

00:32:10.800 --> 00:32:15.037
competent to, you know, watch it for at
least 3 minutes so that it's seen as you

00:32:15.120 --> 00:32:19.197
watching long enough. I like I think
the pockets, which is what you asked, like

00:32:19.280 --> 00:32:22.317
there's great pockets on YouTube,
there's great pockets on Reddit, there's

00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.997
actually a lot of private Facebook
groups. Uh so like one I like I'm a

00:32:26.080 --> 00:32:29.117
member of a of a night vision group
where people build their own night

00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:33.757
vision uh night vision goggles and uh
it's got a couple thousand people, but

00:32:33.840 --> 00:32:38.397
it's it's a private group and very very
much not virally driven. Uh you know,

00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.997
it's not like the Tik Tok tick tock
techno heads. It's not like the YouTube

00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:45.837
techno heads, [clears throat] but man,
I I really miss forums. You know, Mod

00:32:45.920 --> 00:32:48.877
Retro, we had a core group of a few
thousand active members that were that

00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:52.237
were doing stuff in the heyday.
And we were doing a few a few million page

00:32:52.320 --> 00:32:54.957
views a month. Uh, and you would you

00:32:55.040 --> 00:33:00.397
never see those ratios these days,
you know, of of of engagers to to to

00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.317
watchers. >> One thing
that um that uh I thought was

00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.317
actually really interesting, I don't know.

00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:08.797
>> Okay, wait, I have to I have I have to
interrupt. I have to interrupt. One last

00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:11.757
thing I forgot. Um, actually a huge

00:33:11.840 --> 00:33:14.477
fraction of the people that I hired for

00:33:14.560 --> 00:33:19.997
Oculus in the early days were volunteer
moderators on the mod retro forums. Like

00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:22.477
people always, you know, they hire
their network, right? They hire the people

00:33:22.560 --> 00:33:24.397
that they know that [clears throat]
they can trust and that they know are

00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:28.557
competent. And that was my network when
I was a teenager. It was other it was

00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.957
other loser gamer teenagers on the
internet. And so we like that that like

00:33:33.040 --> 00:33:36.797
we some of our lead electrical people,
our lead hardware people, our lead

00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:42.077
mechatronics people uh were all people
who had been moderators on Mod Retro. In

00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.117
fact, the first person I hired
for Oculus was was one of the other

00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:49.517
moderators. And I I actually sent him
a message said, "Hey, what are you doing?

00:33:49.600 --> 00:33:52.557
Uh what are you doing? What are you
doing this fall?" And he said, "Oh, I'm

00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:55.837
I'm starting starting college." I said,
"No, you're not. You're going to come

00:33:55.920 --> 00:33:58.557
work for me." And I literally I like I I

00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:00.237
told him that on a Friday and I

00:34:00.320 --> 00:34:03.197
literally drove out in my minivan to

00:34:03.280 --> 00:34:05.597
pick him up from his mom's house on

00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:07.837
Monday and he had all his stuff in like

00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.237
four boxes and I picked him up. We got

00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:14.877
in my van and we drove to the condemned
motel that I was living in. I mean it

00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:18.717
was it it was it was wild. I mean that
and that that was that was my network.

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:21.917
So it's it's always funny when people
are like oh you know your network is

00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:25.837
your net worth. You know, look, you
we're got all the Stanford kids, you got

00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:29.837
the Ivy kids, and we were just a bunch
of internet losers, and we did better

00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:33.277
than any of them. >> You're like,
um, I'm hiring HMD alumni.

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:36.957
They're like, oh, is that Harvard Medical?
No, no, no. Headmounted display

00:34:37.040 --> 00:34:38.957
forum alumni. [laughter]

00:34:39.040 --> 00:34:42.717
>> Y, that was it
was actually the guy that

00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:47.357
I was hiring, his name's Chris Dykus,
and he had never built a headmounted

00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:51.677
display, but he was he was very
accomplished on the portableizing scene.

00:34:51.760 --> 00:34:54.637
like a lot of [laughter] handheld
vintage game consoles and I I knew he

00:34:54.720 --> 00:34:58.957
was very competent. I knew exact like
you you talk about a job interview where

00:34:59.040 --> 00:35:02.077
you meet someone for you know whatever
they're you know maybe an hour or

00:35:02.160 --> 00:35:05.757
something but I had been seeing this
guy's work published on the forum over

00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:10.877
the course of years and so I knew he had
I I knew he had skills and I knew he had

00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.437
work. >> That's exactly
we me and Sean have hired

00:35:13.520 --> 00:35:16.237
so many people on Twitter and I tell
people all the time like I want to get a

00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.917
job. I'm like, man, if you just like
you need to post your thoughts so people

00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.157
understand your texture and your
tastes and your character, like is

00:35:24.240 --> 00:35:28.157
significantly better doing it there and
then just DMing someone and then they're

00:35:28.240 --> 00:35:30.557
just going to click your profile like,
"Oh, this person is tweeting all this

00:35:30.640 --> 00:35:34.397
like interesting insight that aligns with
>> Well, that and and and that's harder to

00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.917
fake, too. If you if you have somebody
who has a history of building things for

00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:41.357
themselves, of doing things because they
want to, not cuz they're getting paid

00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:45.117
to, like you can't fake that the way
that you can fake an interview. It's

00:35:45.200 --> 00:35:48.637
easy to be like, "Oh, I'm passion about X,
Y, and Z." Well, show me your years

00:35:48.720 --> 00:35:53.197
of work that you've done for no money,
showing that you really are. And I mean,

00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:57.357
we we we still hire a lot of people like
that at Androl. Like, uh we we we have

00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:00.957
benefits that are intended to uh lure
people like that. Like, one of our

00:36:01.040 --> 00:36:05.357
benefits we have is that we will buy
anyone in the company any tool they want

00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:09.117
for their personal projects as well
as work projects. And that's the type of

00:36:09.200 --> 00:36:12.237
thing where people who don't have
personal projects who just, you know,

00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:15.997
they show up to their to their wage
machine and they clock in and they clock

00:36:16.080 --> 00:36:19.197
out, they're not attracted by that.
But the types of people who want to create

00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:23.517
for the sake of creation, those to those
people, that's a it's a it's a golden

00:36:23.600 --> 00:36:26.877
ticket. On that note, we did the same
thing. My co-founder, he's a lot like

00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:30.877
you. Like 15 at age 15, started working
at a do during the dot boom. It was

00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:33.917
like, you know, had a job and was like,
"What the hell's going on?"

00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:35.677
>> And always was just
doing his own thing.

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.957
And so he used to buy um like 3D

00:36:39.040 --> 00:36:42.717
printers and robotics and we're building
like social apps. It's like we didn't

00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:45.117
need any of this stuff. And I was like
what are you doing? Like why are we

00:36:45.200 --> 00:36:49.437
doing this? He's like because a I want
it like I want to come to a space and

00:36:49.520 --> 00:36:52.077
like when I'm done with work I'm just
going to go downstairs to their lab and

00:36:52.160 --> 00:36:55.357
I'm going to build like a drone or I'm
going to like take this Raspberry Pi and

00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.037
like shove it over here and figure
something else out. And he's like also

00:36:59.120 --> 00:37:00.717
that's also how we'll get great people.

00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.997
Like I want to work with other hackers
like that who like to tinker on this

00:37:04.080 --> 00:37:07.677
stuff. And he's like he's like he's
like he had had an exit. So he's like you

00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:09.597
know doing very well. The last company

00:37:09.680 --> 00:37:11.677
went public and so he was like you know

00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:14.717
when I was like 16 18 21 like I just

00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:19.117
couldn't afford the like the thousand
thing that you would need to have. He's

00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:22.717
like I just got lucky that the dude down
the street would let me come over and

00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:26.397
play with his thing. And that's like
that was like a a lifecher of a moment.

00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:29.037
He's like so I just want to do that
for people. Like I just make it free.

00:37:29.120 --> 00:37:32.797
Anybody can come in and anybody can use
this stuff. And he was totally right.

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:36.077
Even though like our CFO was like,
"Hey, we can't justify this." He's like,

00:37:36.160 --> 00:37:38.557
"Don't worry, I'll pay for it all
out of pocket." And it was like,

00:37:38.640 --> 00:37:40.397
>> and I know and I
know that struggle, you

00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.757
know, like, and it doesn't even have to be
$1,000. I mean, I remember there were

00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:47.757
times with the thing I needed, it would
cost like $50. And it was just like it

00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:49.277
was it was inconceivable that I could

00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:52.157
afford it. I mean, like honestly, Oculus

00:37:52.240 --> 00:37:57.117
owes more to the iPhone than anything
else. I mean, like, if the iPhone

00:37:57.200 --> 00:38:00.797
wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't
have been broken iPhones for me to buy,

00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.197
unlock, repair, and sell on eBay. Like,

00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.277
and I cuz I made tens of thousands of

00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:10.317
dollars as a teenager on that on that
side hustle. Like, like if if that had

00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:12.957
not happened, then Oculus
probably wouldn't exist today.

00:38:13.040 --> 00:38:18.157
>> That's amazing. I want to um ask you uh
a bit about Androl, but before before we

00:38:18.240 --> 00:38:22.877
get to that, what ideas were you
pursuing or uh I bet you if you're like

00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:26.397
us, I imagine you have a list of like
things that you're contemplating. What

00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:30.557
was what was on that list uh prior
to starting Andre? I know there was like a

00:38:30.640 --> 00:38:33.997
prison thing and but what what
else like were you interested in?

00:38:34.080 --> 00:38:36.397
>> Well, what was the prison thing?
Start with that one because that that one

00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:38.557
sounds interesting. >> Oh,
so there were two things I was

00:38:38.640 --> 00:38:42.317
seriously considering and then one thing
that I'm I'm going to do someday. So

00:38:42.400 --> 00:38:45.357
seast setting is off the table right now.
It's too long term. But there were

00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:49.277
two short-term things that I was looking
at uh aside from andal. So the three

00:38:49.360 --> 00:38:51.997
choices were fix national security,

00:38:52.080 --> 00:38:56.877
solve obesity, or solve incarceration.

00:38:56.960 --> 00:38:59.917
Uh and you know, I tried to think about,
you know, what are the ways that I would

00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:02.717
tackle these issues? And the way I
solved defense was I wanted to build a

00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:06.877
defense product company that upends
the incentives that typically exist in the

00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:08.877
military-industrial complex. But the

00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:11.117
prison one was that I wanted to

00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:16.077
basically take out the incentives
of the private prison complex that exists

00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:19.757
today. Right now, private prison
companies are are growing. There's more

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:22.797
and more people being housed
in privately operated prisons. They're

00:39:22.880 --> 00:39:24.477
publicly traded. And those companies

00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:27.837
have a strong incentive to lobby for and

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.437
and perpetuate laws that incarcerate

00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:35.997
people for the longest period of time
for the least serious crime. In other

00:39:36.080 --> 00:39:39.517
words, they don't want murderers
and terrorists. They want they want

00:39:39.600 --> 00:39:43.677
nonviolent drug offenders who will be
in prison for a long time. And when they

00:39:43.760 --> 00:39:47.197
get out of prison, they want them
to come back and be a repeat customer.

00:39:47.280 --> 00:39:51.517
>> They want good good tenants. They
want good high occupancy good tenants.

00:39:51.600 --> 00:39:54.557
>> And and the incentives they've set up
with the government where the government

00:39:54.640 --> 00:39:57.517
prepays for these beds. The government
basically says, "Well, we've already

00:39:57.600 --> 00:40:00.797
paid for the beds, so if they're not
full, then we're not locking up enough

00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.477
people." You know, it's a it's a very
bad set of incentives. idea was that I

00:40:04.560 --> 00:40:08.637
could start a private prison
company that would run as a nonprofit

00:40:08.720 --> 00:40:13.517
organization and we would use the tax
advantages of that to out compete

00:40:13.600 --> 00:40:15.597
private prison companies and more

00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:20.760
importantly we would have a business
model that would incentive.

00:40:20.880 --> 00:40:23.757
So, what I wanted to do was go to the
government and say, "Listen, I'll lock

00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:27.517
up your prisoners. Uh, but you don't
get to pay us upfront. In fact, you can't

00:40:27.600 --> 00:40:32.237
pay us upfront. You have to pay us after
the person serves their term and then

00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:36.397
stays out of prison for 5 years.
Then you're going to pay me." Uh, and the

00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:40.157
idea is that now all of a sudden I'm
motivated and, you know, my my whole

00:40:40.240 --> 00:40:44.397
organization is motivated to get people
through as quickly as possible, release

00:40:44.480 --> 00:40:48.637
them as quickly as possible, and then
have them stay out of prison and not

00:40:48.720 --> 00:40:51.837
return to crime. And I mean that would
have been that would have been a game

00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.037
changer and it would have been a very
attractive business model to these

00:40:55.120 --> 00:40:58.957
governments that are always you know
looking to delay their expenditures. The

00:40:59.040 --> 00:41:02.317
biggest problem that I ran into
as I looked into this is it wasn't a

00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.317
technological problem. It was a lobbying
and marketing and government affairs

00:41:06.400 --> 00:41:10.237
problem. And it wasn't at a federal
level where you can basically convince a

00:41:10.320 --> 00:41:11.837
handful of people and then achieve

00:41:11.920 --> 00:41:17.437
success. it was going to be this like
this lo local by local thing where you

00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:20.237
have a lot of people who depend
on prisons for jobs. You have a lot of

00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:22.077
politicians who are very involved in it.

00:41:22.160 --> 00:41:25.837
It was a and also the deals are not
recompeted very often. This isn't like

00:41:25.920 --> 00:41:29.837
enterprise software where people are
always on the lookout for a way to get

00:41:29.920 --> 00:41:33.677
an edge or move to a new provider that
could reduce their costs or risk. It's

00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:38.477
like, oh yeah, we're going to recompete
this deal in 35 years. And so it's it it

00:41:38.560 --> 00:41:41.757
would have been this thing where I I
just couldn't have made an impact fast

00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:45.357
enough. And so I've been involved with
other people who are making impacts in

00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:46.877
other ways. Okay, so that was one.

00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.757
>> Well, you couldn't just have like
some Silicon Valley guy wearing like tight

00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:53.357
jeans and brown shoes like every other
salesperson sitting down like, "Hey, so

00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:56.237
we'd like to have a conversation about
your prisoners. We'd like to have your

00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:59.277
business like, you know,
give me some of your guys."

00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:00.957
>> Unfortunately not. Uh yeah. Yeah.

00:42:01.040 --> 00:42:05.037
Unfortunately not. And and the thing
is the people who make the decisions uh

00:42:05.120 --> 00:42:09.117
would not have benefited from us
succeeding. So in business when you're

00:42:09.200 --> 00:42:11.997
And this is a big we can get into
this with Andreal too. One of the biggest

00:42:12.080 --> 00:42:16.077
problems with selling to the government
versus uh businesses or private private

00:42:16.160 --> 00:42:19.277
individuals with with with private
individuals and businesses, you just

00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.197
have to convince them that uh it'll be
that it'll be a you know that that that

00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:26.237
it'll be a good thing for them and then
they'll buy them. The people who are in

00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:30.077
charge of purchasing for government,
they often don't benefit from saving

00:42:30.160 --> 00:42:34.397
money or reducing their manpower or any
of this. In many cases, the guy in

00:42:34.480 --> 00:42:35.997
charge of making the buying decision,

00:42:36.080 --> 00:42:39.197
his political power and earning power

00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:41.917
are directly tied to his ability to keep

00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:46.717
costs high and to keep manpower up and
to not allow anything to displace that.

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:50.477
So, that was actually the big problem.
I realized that you it's it's nice to

00:42:50.560 --> 00:42:55.517
think you can solve any problem u with
with new ideas through disruption, but

00:42:55.600 --> 00:42:59.197
some things are kind of self-reinforcing,
very hard to fix. The

00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:00.637
the other thing I was looking at is

00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:04.397
obesity. Obesity is uh is one of if not

00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:09.197
the leading preventable cause of death
in the United States. Uh there's so many

00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:13.677
there's so many other health problems
that are the result of of obesity. And

00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:16.957
some people say that we need to make
exercise more popular. Some people say

00:43:17.040 --> 00:43:20.877
that we need to stop normalizing obesity.
Some people say we need medical

00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:24.717
treatment for it or you know we need
to make healthy eating better. I I took a

00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:26.797
pretty cynical view of it. I said, "No,

00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:32.157
obesity is not going away unless you let
American people eat whatever they want,

00:43:32.240 --> 00:43:35.437
whenever they want, as much as they
want, with no lifestyle changes, no

00:43:35.520 --> 00:43:38.957
exercise, and absolutely no effort on

00:43:39.040 --> 00:43:43.597
their parts whatsoever." And so within
that constraint, what could you do to to

00:43:43.680 --> 00:43:45.917
solve this issue? And uh the the the

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:48.637
result that the the idea came on was uh

00:43:48.720 --> 00:43:53.117
longchain hydrocarbon based synthetic
foods. So in other words, oil-based

00:43:53.200 --> 00:43:56.717
foods. Uh you you guys are familiar with
Impossible Burger, Beyond Burger. Have

00:43:56.800 --> 00:44:01.037
you had them? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So,
I mean, it was probably better than

00:44:01.120 --> 00:44:04.317
the worst beef burger you've ever had,
right? It it was at least at that level.

00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:07.037
It's wor It's better than
the worst one you've ever had.

00:44:07.120 --> 00:44:10.637
>> Yeah. It It was a whatever.
I'll eat this.

00:44:10.720 --> 00:44:13.757
>> Yeah. Whatever. You'll eat this.
But certainly not up to the level of the

00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:16.797
best beef burger you've
ever had. Um >> No.

00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.237
>> And and so one of the one of the
interesting This is where I was drawing

00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:23.117
from outside, you know, in an outside
world. all these people trying to make

00:44:23.200 --> 00:44:27.357
fake food, they're all trying to build
fake food out of food. And I said,

00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:30.717
"Well, wait, let's think of this from
first principles. If I'm a materials

00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:35.197
engineer and I'm trying to solve
the set of problems that a fake burger

00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:37.917
manufacturer is trying to solve, you know,
how it feels in your mouth, how it

00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:41.277
comes apart in your mouth, how it how
it sears, how it cooks, how it changes

00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:43.917
texture when it's cooked. If I was a

00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:46.157
chemical or material engineer trying to

00:44:46.240 --> 00:44:49.117
build, let's say it's not food, just a,

00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.437
you know, a a paste, a substance with a

00:44:51.520 --> 00:44:54.237
certain set of of parameters. What am I

00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:57.517
going to use? Is it is it beans? Is it

00:44:57.600 --> 00:44:59.837
chickpeas? Is it corn? No, of course

00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:02.477
not. I'm going to use oil because man is

00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:04.797
a master of oil. We can make it in

00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:08.797
anything. Waxes, gels, solids, anything

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:11.837
in between. rubbers, pastes, we can do

00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:16.317
anything with oil. We can make it into
truly anything with almost any material

00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.997
properties that we want. And so I said,
well, let's leverage that. Let's

00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:24.637
leverage everything we know about making
inert hydrocarbons that are non-toxic

00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:26.957
and use that to make fake food for

00:45:27.040 --> 00:45:29.597
people that tastes and feels like real

00:45:29.680 --> 00:45:34.317
food, but has zero caloric value that
cannot be absorbed by your body. It just

00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:36.317
goes right through you just like fiber.

00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.077
And the thing is, it's not that crazy.

00:45:38.160 --> 00:45:42.877
Taco Bell. >> A diet coke
for Yeah. [laughter] It's a

00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.717
Yeah, that exists, dude. It's called
White Castle. Uh but I mean, yeah,

00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:49.197
you're just saying like
the Diet Coke cheeseburger.

00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:51.677
>> Yes. Ex Diet Coke
cheeseburger. The Diet

00:45:51.760 --> 00:45:56.397
Coke cheese. The Diet You The Diet
Coke dairy products. And so I actually

00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:00.557
started making prototypes of this and I
was messing around with uh frying foods

00:46:00.640 --> 00:46:03.117
in mineral oil uh with with with high

00:46:03.200 --> 00:46:08.237
flash points because mineral oil also no
calories. Um, I made some paraffin based

00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:13.037
cheese. Uh, so it was basically like
paraffin wax based fake cheese product

00:46:13.120 --> 00:46:14.637
that you could still make grilled cheese

00:46:14.720 --> 00:46:20.317
sandwiches with and it tasted great but
had almost no calories. Um, it was there

00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:23.517
were a few other wild things that came
with. I I also built a device that

00:46:23.600 --> 00:46:27.197
injected uh soda syrup through a stream

00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:31.277
onto your tongue directly as carbonated
water flowed over it. Because it turns

00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:35.437
out you can only detect what it's
a weird perceptual thing. People think of

00:46:35.520 --> 00:46:39.117
uh optical illusions as as you know
the the main type of illusion that's out

00:46:39.200 --> 00:46:42.397
there. But there's also physical
illusions. Like if you if you put

00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.917
pudding pudding in your mouth, your body
assumes that the full mass of the

00:46:46.000 --> 00:46:49.517
pudding is comprised of whatever
is touching your tongue. But if you can

00:46:49.600 --> 00:46:53.357
create uh physically structured foods
where the part that's touching your

00:46:53.440 --> 00:46:58.077
tongue is different than the bulk of
the rest of the material, your body still

00:46:58.160 --> 00:47:00.877
thinks that the entire bulk of it
is whatever is touching your tongue.

00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:02.797
Anyway, >> dude, what I
went down this rabbit hole

00:47:02.880 --> 00:47:06.877
for a while. What does your
house look like? [laughter]

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:08.957
>> Well, I mean,
it it's it's a little more

00:47:09.040 --> 00:47:13.997
boring now. Um, but at the time, uh,
when when I was acquired by Facebook, I

00:47:14.080 --> 00:47:18.797
moved up to the Bay Area and we had
about 10 people living in a 13,000 ft

00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:20.877
home that was built in the 30s on 6

00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:25.837
acres. And so, we turned the dining room
into a machine shop. We turned uh we we

00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:30.077
turned the there there was like a like
a ballroom for dancing and we turned that

00:47:30.160 --> 00:47:32.637
into an assembly area and and and

00:47:32.720 --> 00:47:37.197
welding welding room. I mean we we had
a soft goods room in in in the little

00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:41.837
sunny area [laughter] >> as someone does
room. I don't even know what that means.

00:47:41.920 --> 00:47:46.887
What are soft goods?
>> Oh like um so like >> cream cheese.

00:47:46.970 --> 00:47:50.077
[laughter] I mean like the traditional
example when people talk like a soft

00:47:50.160 --> 00:47:52.317
goods engineer would be like uh like

00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:55.597
tennis shoes, bras, um uh you know

00:47:55.680 --> 00:47:59.357
things that are incorporating fabrics
and also PL or think you know like a

00:47:59.440 --> 00:48:03.757
like a tennis a tennis racket is is is
is an example of soft good engineering

00:48:03.840 --> 00:48:07.037
where you've got you know the handle
and the shock absorption all that but like

00:48:07.120 --> 00:48:10.397
in our case it was for headmounted
display stuff. Um so like headmounted

00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:14.237
display straps the f the fabric
associated with it. Um, we also were,

00:48:14.320 --> 00:48:17.437
you know, we're also cosplayers,
so we were also building our building our

00:48:17.520 --> 00:48:19.837
anime costumes there. So,
a lot of soft good stuff.

00:48:19.920 --> 00:48:24.077
>> You, the more you talk, the more I
realize you uh you do the one thing that

00:48:24.160 --> 00:48:27.117
we celebrate the most on this podcast,
cuz they're like people are like, I

00:48:27.200 --> 00:48:30.077
don't get it. Like you and Sam, you
do a certain style of entrepreneurship,

00:48:30.160 --> 00:48:34.237
right? Like for example, I optimize
for just I want it to be me and one other

00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:36.557
dude. I don't want any employees.
I don't want to go to an office and I just

00:48:36.640 --> 00:48:39.677
want max leverage. And I'm not trying
to be a billionaire. I don't want to raise

00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:42.397
money. I want to own the whole thing
and just do it my way on whatever projects

00:48:42.480 --> 00:48:45.757
are fun. >> And um
but then sometimes we'll

00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.917
celebrate like the you and Elon Musk
of the world that are going huge. And

00:48:50.000 --> 00:48:53.357
sometimes we celebrate this dude who's
making this Chrome extension. He makes

00:48:53.440 --> 00:48:56.397
20K a month and lives in, you know, Bali
and he's having fun. And so people don't

00:48:56.480 --> 00:48:59.997
get it. They're like, "What do you like,
which one do you admire?" Like I get it.

00:49:00.080 --> 00:49:04.157
TechCrunch admires this thing and VCs
admire this thing, but you guys seem to

00:49:04.240 --> 00:49:08.477
be across the board. And we're like,
we like people that just define the win

00:49:08.560 --> 00:49:12.717
define winning on their terms and then
like actualize it. So like you having a

00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.557
house with 13 other people that does
that has like you know an assembly room

00:49:16.640 --> 00:49:20.317
and a soft goods room and whatever.
It seems like you're living your best life

00:49:20.400 --> 00:49:25.597
in that state maybe. >> 100%.
>> Well, and I it's it's it's the weird

00:49:25.680 --> 00:49:28.957
thing about what I get to do now like
these these all sound, you know, like

00:49:29.040 --> 00:49:32.717
like fun things, but I'm still getting
to do that. And like Androl, we have all

00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:33.917
kinds of stuff like that going on.

00:49:34.000 --> 00:49:37.597
Actually, the the tough thing is the
coolest things that we're doing here, I

00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:41.037
can't even necessarily talk about
because the the most successful projects

00:49:41.120 --> 00:49:44.237
that are doing the cool going in the
coolest directions are the ones that

00:49:44.320 --> 00:49:48.477
that we have to keep kind of uh on wraps.
Oh, I have to say on on petroleum

00:49:48.560 --> 00:49:52.477
food, just in case anyone's wondering
why I didn't do that. Um, one, I thought

00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:55.757
national security would would be
a better use of my time, and that was

00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:59.277
because I realized tech was that
national security was a technological

00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:03.277
problem in addition to being a lobbying
and marketing problem and sales problem.

00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:05.837
Um the the problem with petroleum foods

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:08.317
is that it was not sustainable if using

00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:13.037
new oil as a feed stock. Um it would
just it would consume too much. Uh and

00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:17.277
the good news is you can recycle
hydrocarbons. But then I mean if you I

00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:19.357
don't know if you can see where this
is going, but it means you're going to

00:50:19.440 --> 00:50:22.477
literally be like centrifuging

00:50:22.560 --> 00:50:27.597
oil out of the sewer system and then
reusing it to construct new food. And I

00:50:27.680 --> 00:50:30.477
realized like, have you have you seen
all the, you know, media coverage of

00:50:30.560 --> 00:50:34.637
pink pink slime at McDonald's?
And that's just like chicken, but it looks

00:50:34.720 --> 00:50:38.077
kind of gross. Yeah. [laughter] Do
you think people want to buy food

00:50:38.160 --> 00:50:42.477
that's literally remanufactured from
sewage? You know, that that that was

00:50:42.560 --> 00:50:45.837
kind of the main problem. I said,
you know what? I'm I'm I'm pretty good at

00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:50.397
marketing and sales. I am not good
enough to sell sewer food to people.

00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.277
>> Yeah. You you you sound >> I
need to figure that out. You sound

00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:55.917
like you're a bad guy in Batman if
you're like, "Yeah, he's going through

00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:58.877
the sewers and recycling it,
turning it into food." [laughter]

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:03.037
>> It's it's like and it's almost too
good of a story, right? Like like I I

00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:07.117
sometimes I think the media is unfair,
but it's like could you expect them to

00:51:07.200 --> 00:51:09.917
not, you know, sensationalize literally

00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.957
a guy who's who's selling reprocessed
sewage as food. Like it's like they have

00:51:15.040 --> 00:51:18.797
to cover it in a sensational way.
And I can't even blame them for it. And I

00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:20.237
decided I would rather work in an area

00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:24.077
where technological improvement would be

00:51:24.160 --> 00:51:27.757
the main way that you would compete.
We didn't need to, you know, do crazy

00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:31.357
marketing. You just had to be competent
and be better than all of the other

00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:36.077
players, which was not
necessarily that high of a bar.

00:51:36.160 --> 00:51:38.077
>> I can't find this client info.

00:51:38.160 --> 00:51:42.317
>> Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is
a CRM [music] platform, so it shares its

00:51:42.400 --> 00:51:46.557
data across every application. Every
team can stay aligned. No out of sync

00:51:46.640 --> 00:51:48.477
spreadsheets or dueling databases.

00:51:48.560 --> 00:51:53.437
HubSpot grow better. [music] >> Do
you uh you talked about the media for

00:51:53.520 --> 00:51:57.517
a second and I when I was doing research
I was like the you know there's this

00:51:57.600 --> 00:52:01.837
great Silicon Valley post that's called
like the hands of time of social media

00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.317
of of media in Silicon Valley. It's like

00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:08.957
it it starts at noon and it's like
you're born you know nobody's ever heard

00:52:09.040 --> 00:52:12.957
of you. Then at 1:00 you're like emerging.
At three you're like the star.

00:52:13.040 --> 00:52:16.237
everybody loves you and it like goes
and then it cycles all the way back to

00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:20.477
midnight and it's like you're evil
uh you're ruining society and you like

00:52:20.560 --> 00:52:24.957
destroy democracy and whatever else and
this happens with every hot company and

00:52:25.040 --> 00:52:28.397
every hot founder whatever and when I
was looking at your media coverage to do

00:52:28.480 --> 00:52:31.277
research it's all like this is the boy

00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:35.677
wonder he's 19 years old he's making
virtual reality real he's doing this out

00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.997
of his garage in his house or whatever
>> and then it turns into like this guy is

00:52:40.080 --> 00:52:43.837
like you know the MAGA super evil guy
he's getting fired by Facebook and then

00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:48.317
it's like the defense stuff. So, you've
seen kind of both sides of the media

00:52:48.400 --> 00:52:51.197
machine. Does that make
you kind of jaded? Like

00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:54.157
where do you trust the media today? And
like how do you think about you know the

00:52:54.240 --> 00:52:56.477
media? >> Well, there's
an interesting quote that

00:52:56.560 --> 00:52:59.117
people often misuse from the Nolan

00:52:59.200 --> 00:53:03.517
Batman movies. Uh

00:53:03.600 --> 00:53:07.517
you either die a hero or live see
yourself live long enough to become the

00:53:07.600 --> 00:53:10.797
villain. And a lot of people
misunderstand that. They think that it

00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:15.837
means you start out as a hero and then
eventually descend into into being uh

00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:18.717
you know a bad guy. And they look
at Harvey Dent and they that they they

00:53:18.800 --> 00:53:22.477
think that's the moral. But that's
not what was what what Harvey Dent was

00:53:22.560 --> 00:53:24.477
saying. Harvey Dent had actually always

00:53:24.560 --> 00:53:27.597
been a kind of crooked power seeking

00:53:27.680 --> 00:53:30.077
political type. What what what he was

00:53:30.160 --> 00:53:34.877
saying is that he had always been the same
person fighting for the same ideals

00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:39.677
and that he just lived long enough to see
the world change around him. That so

00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:43.757
that people started saying that what he
was was a villain. You know, he didn't

00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:46.477
say that you become the villain. You to

00:53:46.560 --> 00:53:50.797
see yourself become the villain in the
eyes of everyone else. And I I I feel

00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.397
like I've definitely been through been
been through that uh been through that a

00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.477
little bit. I mean, it's worth noting
I'm not inclined to dislike the media

00:53:58.560 --> 00:54:01.997
naturally. A lot of people assume that
that must be the case. I I don't know if

00:54:02.080 --> 00:54:05.277
you know this. I was a journalism major
at Cal State Long Beach. I was actually

00:54:05.360 --> 00:54:10.557
the online editor of the of the school
paper, the Daily 49er. Uh so I I by no

00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:14.477
mean like I there was a time where I
thought I was going to go into a career

00:54:14.560 --> 00:54:17.357
in tech journalism. And so I I never

00:54:17.440 --> 00:54:21.997
really had had any issues with it. um
as a as you know I thought it was a very a

00:54:22.080 --> 00:54:25.917
very honorable thing to do you know
to go out and and be the guy who dig dig

00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:30.157
digs and gets the truth and lets people
know what's going on that they otherwise

00:54:30.240 --> 00:54:34.877
would not have the ability or the time
to sus out themselves. Uh and then

00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:37.997
unfortunately I've had quite a few
experiences with the media. It's like do

00:54:38.080 --> 00:54:39.517
I trust the media? It's like, well, I

00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:41.677
mean, I've had like literally dozens of

00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:45.357
major outlets post literally fabricated

00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:49.677
quotes from me. Uh, lit, you know,
literally like things that never

00:54:49.760 --> 00:54:53.597
happened. Uh, they said, you know,
we did all these terrible things that just

00:54:53.680 --> 00:54:57.197
never even happened and then refused
to correct them for years on end. So, it's

00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.237
one of those people like, "Oh, Palmer,
why do you attack the media?" It's like,

00:55:00.320 --> 00:55:03.597
I don't know. Like, there's not any
real way to to get to get around this. I

00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:07.597
mean, like, we're not talking about
tiny outlets. The New York Times posted a

00:55:07.680 --> 00:55:11.437
quote for me that I literally never said.
And I I told them like, "Hey, you

00:55:11.520 --> 00:55:15.117
you said that I said this. I never said
that." They said, "Well, it's it's it's

00:55:15.200 --> 00:55:18.077
it's more or less what you said.
We don't think the meaning is different."

00:55:18.160 --> 00:55:21.437
And I was like, "Yeah, but your your
your ethics guide I know I know what it

00:55:21.520 --> 00:55:24.237
is. I was taught the New York Times
style guide when I was in journalism

00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:28.157
school. It doesn't it doesn't say you
get to quote me and paraphrase me and

00:55:28.240 --> 00:55:31.357
you think that is it doesn't mean
anything different." And then of course

00:55:31.440 --> 00:55:34.760
everyone requir

00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:39.997
means what you think it means. You know,
you're like th those those like you know

00:55:40.080 --> 00:55:42.877
those little signs in the paper that say
it's a quote that that means something

00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:44.957
different than what than
what you guys are saying.

00:55:45.040 --> 00:55:48.317
>> Well, I explained to them I said I said
your quote from me is literally missing

00:55:48.400 --> 00:55:52.237
six of the words that I said, but you
have it in quotes with a period. And I I

00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:55.837
never said that. Um, and it was actually
and it there was no period because it

00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:59.917
was part of a longer run-on argument I
was making that that did not even have a

00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:02.397
period there. And they're like, "Oh,
well, we don't think it really changes

00:56:02.480 --> 00:56:07.037
the meaning." So, just I you know,
without belavoring the point, uh, you I

00:56:07.120 --> 00:56:08.877
think you you can't you can't trust the

00:56:08.960 --> 00:56:12.317
media to to uh you can't trust the media

00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:15.997
to do the right thing. And if you do,

00:56:16.080 --> 00:56:19.517
you're probably going to get burned at
some point. It worked for me for a while

00:56:19.600 --> 00:56:22.317
uh until it didn't. What does um what

00:56:22.400 --> 00:56:25.757
does Andre do and what made you realize

00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:29.917
that the the the the approach to solve
that problem was the approach that you

00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:32.797
picked because that seems like such
a grand I mean I understand the high level

00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:38.077
of what you do but it's so grand that I
think well like Oculus was fairly grand

00:56:38.160 --> 00:56:40.957
but I kind of get that you can kind of
tinker in your garage and come up with a

00:56:41.040 --> 00:56:45.117
nifty product and whatever and like
no one's gonna like get hurt really and

00:56:45.200 --> 00:56:50.957
it's like a pretty simple process
hard but simple. Andrew. I'm like, "Oh

00:56:51.040 --> 00:56:53.117
my god, I don't even know where to start."
I mean, I get I've seen the

00:56:53.200 --> 00:56:55.757
movie with Jonah Hill where he's like
a war dog or whatever it's called where he

00:56:55.840 --> 00:56:59.437
like buys and sell weapons and I'm like,
"Is that what Andrew does?" And Yeah.

00:56:59.520 --> 00:57:01.197
Yeah. I'm like, "Is that what Andrew

00:57:01.280 --> 00:57:03.757
does?" And how on earth does even a rich

00:57:03.840 --> 00:57:08.557
guy who's 28 in his apartment or his big
house come up with this? This is crazy.

00:57:08.640 --> 00:57:12.557
Like, who do you call? You call like,
"Hey, uh, hey Brock, uh, I was thinking,

00:57:12.640 --> 00:57:15.357
you know, maybe we could try this like
MVP." You know what I mean? I don't even

00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:19.917
know how you start that. I mean it it's
tough and it is such a big problem and

00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:22.077
so unapproachable that very few people

00:57:22.160 --> 00:57:27.197
do approach it. I mean like very big
picture and is trying to build the next

00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:31.197
major defense prime meaning we we're
the prime contract holder. We're not a

00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:33.597
subcontractor to existing primes like

00:57:33.680 --> 00:57:35.517
Loheed Martin or Rathon or North of

00:57:35.600 --> 00:57:39.997
Grumman or Boeing. And uh you know I 80%

00:57:40.080 --> 00:57:44.397
of the US defense budget goes to just
a handful of companies. These big primes

00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.557
that just completely dominate
the industry and they get paid on what's

00:57:48.640 --> 00:57:51.917
called a cost plus basis. They get
paid for their time, materials, fixed

00:57:52.000 --> 00:57:54.717
percentage of profit on top, which
means that they're incentivized to move

00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:57.997
slowly. They actually make more money
when they come up with more expensive

00:57:58.080 --> 00:58:01.917
systems, more money when they sell more
of something, more money when it even

00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:05.517
breaks more often because they get
to sell more parts for it. I mean, it's

00:58:05.600 --> 00:58:10.637
it's a it's a really bizarre contracting
system that we created in World War II

00:58:10.720 --> 00:58:14.237
to basically take over the US war
machine or sorry, the US industrial

00:58:14.320 --> 00:58:17.437
machine, turn it into a war machine
because companies like Ford were saying,

00:58:17.520 --> 00:58:21.197
"Hey, I I can't even quote you what
it's going to cost to make a tank because

00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:25.437
I've never really, you know, this has
never really been my business." And uh

00:58:25.520 --> 00:58:28.237
they said, "Okay, fine. We'll pay you
whatever it costs and a fixed percentage

00:58:28.320 --> 00:58:31.517
of profit on top to make sure that you
are able to keep running your business."

00:58:31.600 --> 00:58:34.717
And then unfortunately we just kept
doing that uh even though we were no

00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:39.677
longer in an existential war mode. And so
in the last 35 years since the end of

00:58:39.760 --> 00:58:43.197
the cold war the government had
completely lost its ability to grow

00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:46.797
small defense companies into large
defense companies. I mean you know

00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:51.917
Samuel Colt went from working in his
tiny garage workshop to arming the

00:58:52.000 --> 00:58:55.277
entire western world. That's that's
that's what we used to be able to do.

00:58:55.360 --> 00:58:59.597
You could start small and get big if you
had the best stuff. But in the last 35

00:58:59.680 --> 00:59:03.437
years, there were only two unicorns
before Anderil in the defense space. And

00:59:03.520 --> 00:59:06.077
35 years not just being chosen
arbitrarily. It's basically since the

00:59:06.160 --> 00:59:09.997
end of the cold war. During the cold war,
we did turn small defense companies

00:59:10.080 --> 00:59:14.557
into into major players. But since then,
it's Palunteer, SpaceX, both founded by

00:59:14.640 --> 00:59:16.557
billionaires, and then nobody else.

00:59:16.640 --> 00:59:21.357
That's it. And so it it's so hard to get
in. You know, founders say, "I have no

00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:23.837
idea how I could possibly start
a defense company." So they don't start a

00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:26.957
defense company. Uh venture capitalists
say, "I'm not going to invest in a

00:59:27.040 --> 00:59:31.117
defense company. There's no examples
of success in the last 35 years less the

00:59:31.200 --> 00:59:34.237
billionaires uh who can do anything. I'm
sure they could have done whatever they

00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:39.037
wanted with their billions. Uh and so
the VCs don't want to invest in it. And

00:59:39.120 --> 00:59:42.557
this is and then smart employees don't
want to go work at defense startups

00:59:42.640 --> 00:59:45.677
because they look at the landscape. They
say look this might be a cool lifestyle

00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.797
business but it's never going to grow
to a scale where the equity that I'm given

00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:51.757
is a significant is a significant way to

00:59:51.840 --> 00:59:54.397
generate money for me and my family. And

00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.197
so, uh, I I I said, "Man, you if that's

00:59:57.280 --> 01:00:01.437
really what it takes, uh, it really,
you know, if it really does take lots and

01:00:01.520 --> 01:00:04.957
lots of money and lots and lots
of influence and really smart people, then

01:00:05.040 --> 01:00:08.637
I'm in a position to start a company
that very few people are. Very few

01:00:08.720 --> 01:00:12.797
founders have experience running
a multi-billion dollar company with

01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:14.717
thousands of employees man mass

01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:16.637
manufacturing millions of pieces of

01:00:16.720 --> 01:00:20.717
hardware uh and h are and are willing to

01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:24.317
give up the adoration of their peers
in the media. Like that was actually

01:00:24.400 --> 01:00:28.397
probably the most important factor. If
I would have just left Oculus by retiring

01:00:28.480 --> 01:00:31.757
on my own, it would have been much
harder for me to go into an area like

01:00:31.840 --> 01:00:35.997
building weapons for the US and our
allies because so many people got so

01:00:36.080 --> 01:00:38.957
angry about it. you know, friends
that I had who didn't want to talk to me

01:00:39.040 --> 01:00:43.037
anymore, investors who said that not
only would we never make money, but that

01:00:43.120 --> 01:00:46.797
what we were doing was morally
reprehensible and wrong. And you know, I

01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:51.037
was trying to explain to people, listen,
we live in a world where our major

01:00:51.120 --> 01:00:55.837
strategic adversaries are rapidly
building advanced technology that has no

01:00:55.920 --> 01:00:57.677
peer here in the United States war

01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:02.717
machine. uh the the major conflict is

01:01:02.800 --> 01:01:05.677
imminent in Asia, in Europe, with a lot

01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:10.477
of our strong allies and partners and we
need to be ready not just to win those

01:01:10.560 --> 01:01:13.837
wars. The goal is not to win a war,
it's to deter a war from happening in the

01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:17.677
first place. And if we don't have the
tools we need to deter them, then war is

01:01:17.760 --> 01:01:21.117
inevitable. And I you guys probably
remember how things were, you know, I

01:01:21.200 --> 01:01:23.517
guess back you five or six years ago. It

01:01:23.600 --> 01:01:26.317
was very very popular to believe that

01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:30.797
we're at the end of history and that
peace is too profitable for anyone to

01:01:30.880 --> 01:01:34.157
rock the boat and that that was the thing
that would keep everybody in line.

01:01:34.240 --> 01:01:38.157
I think that Russia invading Ukraine
finally woke up a lot of people to

01:01:38.240 --> 01:01:40.797
realize that history is not over. uh

01:01:40.880 --> 01:01:43.997
land borders are not fixed and uh like I

01:01:44.080 --> 01:01:46.797
mean look how wild it is that Europe is

01:01:46.880 --> 01:01:49.277
still buying billions of dollars of

01:01:49.360 --> 01:01:53.997
goods from Russia even as Russia
literally invades Europe. I mean like

01:01:54.080 --> 01:01:58.077
that's that's how screw that's how
screwed they are. Um and I think people

01:01:58.160 --> 01:02:01.757
people did not see this a few years ago
and I felt I felt a little bit like a

01:02:01.840 --> 01:02:05.677
crazy person. Um and if I'll I'll ramble
on one more thing. You've probably heard

01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:09.277
me say this before elsewhere, but it
could be that you know your your your

01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:13.597
viewers haven't has had heard me say this.
I'll say it again. You know, we're

01:02:13.680 --> 01:02:15.997
living in the first time in US history

01:02:16.080 --> 01:02:21.117
where the most innovative, powerful,
and large technology companies in our

01:02:21.200 --> 01:02:24.317
country refused to work with the military.
That's never been the case.

01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:27.597
Our most powerful companies have
always understood that they had a

01:02:27.680 --> 01:02:31.437
responsibility to aid with national
security. But now, but I mean whether

01:02:31.520 --> 01:02:33.037
you're talking about Google or in

01:02:33.120 --> 01:02:35.677
particular Apple. I mean Apple's got 95%

01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:40.397
of their manufacturing in China,
uh they agreed to invest they've invested

01:02:40.480 --> 01:02:43.597
hundreds of billions of dollars
in manufacturing capacity there. They've

01:02:43.680 --> 01:02:48.477
agreed to invest a further $275 billion
in Chinese manufacturing in exchange for

01:02:48.560 --> 01:02:51.757
being allowed to operate as an
independent company in China instead of

01:02:51.840 --> 01:02:54.797
being nationalized into a joint venture

01:02:54.880 --> 01:02:57.037
majority owned by China. I mean they

01:02:57.120 --> 01:02:59.357
they they're in a position where if they

01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:01.837
do anything to upset the Chinese

01:03:01.920 --> 01:03:06.557
government, the one person in China
could sign one piece of paper that would

01:03:06.640 --> 01:03:08.797
wipe out the most powerful company in

01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:11.437
the entire world instantly. A $2

01:03:11.520 --> 01:03:13.757
trillion company like they they are not

01:03:13.840 --> 01:03:18.477
masters of their own destiny by by any
means. And I I I guess I want to stress

01:03:18.560 --> 01:03:22.157
this because it's never been the case
in history. And that had me terrified. You

01:03:22.240 --> 01:03:25.677
know, I I 5 years ago, I could see
we were on the precipice of war with

01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:28.797
advanced powers who had fully suppressed

01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:33.597
our most advanced technology companies
through economic tools. And you know, if

01:03:33.680 --> 01:03:37.517
I I I don't understand why more people
were not scared by that, but I felt like

01:03:37.600 --> 01:03:41.277
I couldn't do anything that was more
important than starting Anderal to start

01:03:41.360 --> 01:03:44.237
help solving that problem. And thanks
for letting me ramble for so long on

01:03:44.320 --> 01:03:46.957
that. I know that was a long ramble,
but I've I've got a lot of lot of emotion

01:03:47.040 --> 01:03:50.877
all built up inside of on it. No, I mean
that's why we wanted you on is to hear

01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:52.797
what you're doing and why. And you also

01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:55.437
flipped like the common denominator with

01:03:55.520 --> 01:04:00.797
either the prison thing, the food, the
the oil based foods or this is that you

01:04:00.880 --> 01:04:04.317
kind of looked at it from another angle
and also maybe flipped the incentives

01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:07.837
the cost structure. So what you were
saying was you let's say with the prison

01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.477
thing you wanted to be incentivized to
keep people out of prison rather than in

01:04:10.560 --> 01:04:11.677
prison for as long as possible.

01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.957
>> Exactly. >> Sounds like for Andrew.

01:04:13.040 --> 01:04:16.477
>> Sounds so simple, right?
>> Yeah. It sounds like for you,

01:04:16.560 --> 01:04:18.877
>> it is simple, but it's not easy.

01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:20.637
>> No. >> Yeah. And well,
and what it sounds like

01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:22.237
what you ran into there was the

01:04:22.320 --> 01:04:26.477
incentive uh for the local official who,

01:04:26.560 --> 01:04:30.397
you know, um who decides on these things
may have been to have a bigger budget

01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.957
and not a smaller budget. And so,
you know, your incentives were sort of

01:04:33.040 --> 01:04:35.517
clashing, right? Whereas with >>
and he does and he doesn't have to say,

01:04:35.600 --> 01:04:38.237
"I'm not buying your thing because
my incentives are wrong." You could be

01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:41.677
like, "Oh, we've done an assessment
of all the vendors and this one really has

01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:44.877
a lot more experience and we don't
want to take a risk on a new vendor." It

01:04:44.960 --> 01:04:47.917
could literally be that simple.
He people like, "Oh, but how would they

01:04:48.000 --> 01:04:50.877
justify the business model?" You know,
it would be so much better. It's like he

01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:54.637
doesn't have to. Like you he could
just be like, "Nope. I I too much risk."

01:04:54.720 --> 01:04:57.437
>> And so what's the business model
with Andrew? Because you're not doing cost

01:04:57.520 --> 01:05:01.517
plus, you're doing something else.
And um so that's

01:05:01.600 --> 01:05:05.117
>> we're we're a defense product company.
I mean, we we work the way it's not even a

01:05:05.200 --> 01:05:09.037
revolutionary business model. It's
the way every tech company works. You use

01:05:09.120 --> 01:05:13.677
your own money, you build a product,
you make it work, and then you go to

01:05:13.760 --> 01:05:17.357
customers and you sell it to them. And
that that is a very hard thing to do in

01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:21.277
the defense space. But we've basically
bet that we will be able to pick the

01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:24.317
right things to work on. That will
be able to find the right partners in

01:05:24.400 --> 01:05:27.837
government to help tell us what we
should be investing our own money in

01:05:27.920 --> 01:05:31.837
ahead of time. And that in the end when
it works, that we'll be able to sell

01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:34.637
most of the time to the government.
Now, there will be times where we get

01:05:34.720 --> 01:05:37.997
screwed. There will be times where we
don't build things that work and uh you

01:05:38.080 --> 01:05:42.557
know and it's our own money that we
burned instead of taxpayers. But on the

01:05:42.640 --> 01:05:45.757
whole, we're very incentivized to be
efficient. We don't want things to drag

01:05:45.840 --> 01:05:49.117
out. We don't want to drag it out to be
a 10-year R&D program on a cost plus

01:05:49.200 --> 01:05:52.717
basis when when we can get it done in 6
months with some really, really smart

01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:56.397
ideas. And so we've got the right
incentives. And we're we're basically

01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:00.237
out there trying to convince
the Department of Defense and politicians

01:06:00.320 --> 01:06:03.997
that this is the way that all defense
companies should be working. Everyone

01:06:04.080 --> 01:06:07.677
should live in fear looking over their
own own shoulder knowing that if they

01:06:07.760 --> 01:06:10.797
fail that they're the ones who are
going to get screwed, not taxpayers.

01:06:10.880 --> 01:06:15.757
>> So when you get a contract that's
like we got a $900 million contract that's

01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:18.797
after you've already produced
the product and they're basically just

01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:20.317
agreeing to buy the goods at that point.

01:06:20.400 --> 01:06:22.317
Is that what that means in your case?

01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:25.997
>> Yeah, I mean we recently just won
a billion dollar contract with SOCOM

01:06:26.080 --> 01:06:30.557
special operations uh command uh to do
all of their counter drone work. So

01:06:30.640 --> 01:06:34.557
basically protecting like building the
hardware and software that is defending

01:06:34.640 --> 01:06:38.077
them from uh from drones that are
attacking their installations and

01:06:38.160 --> 01:06:42.637
positions. And we started working on
our counter drone system using all of our

01:06:42.720 --> 01:06:46.477
own money years and years ago before we
had any customer. We just we we started

01:06:46.560 --> 01:06:49.997
building the hardware and the software,
building our interceptors, building our

01:06:50.080 --> 01:06:54.637
jammers. And uh then we it was after
we invested a ton of our own money and

01:06:54.720 --> 01:06:57.837
proved that this was the right way
to solve the problem that we were able to

01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.957
go. Oh, and actually there was a full
competition for who they were going to

01:07:01.040 --> 01:07:03.917
select for this. And they did basically
a shootoff between all these different

01:07:04.000 --> 01:07:08.877
companies. And some of the companies
that we beat were actually getting paid

01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:12.797
by the government to develop their
systems using government money. But we

01:07:12.880 --> 01:07:15.917
had invested quite a bit more money
and moved much faster. And there were

01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:19.517
literally contractors that were
complaining saying, "This isn't fair. We

01:07:19.600 --> 01:07:22.477
have to compete with Anderol and they've
been investing their own money for

01:07:22.560 --> 01:07:25.917
years. How could we possibly be expected
to compete when the government's only

01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:29.517
given us, you know, tens of millions
of dollars over the course of the last two

01:07:29.600 --> 01:07:33.597
years? And I I'm like, guys, like,
of course, this is how it works. Like, you

01:07:33.680 --> 01:07:37.117
could have won if you had spent your own
money. If you had spent your own money

01:07:37.200 --> 01:07:41.277
for 5 years, you probably would be able
to compete with us on an even playing

01:07:41.360 --> 01:07:43.997
field, but you can't take no risk and

01:07:44.080 --> 01:07:48.557
expect all of the reward. And we spent
a lot less than these companies developing

01:07:48.640 --> 01:07:52.397
much better capabilities because we had
the right incentives. So, you're you're

01:07:52.480 --> 01:07:55.917
I I think you're 30 years old, so you're
we're we're all about the same age.

01:07:56.000 --> 01:07:58.717
You're sitting there with a >>
just turned 30 a few weeks ago.

01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:01.997
>> Well, happy birthday. You're
sitting there in a Hawaiian t-shirt with

01:08:02.080 --> 01:08:05.997
a goatee. I You're probably the type of
dude who walks around barefooted all the

01:08:06.080 --> 01:08:10.237
time and you're talking about cosplay
and yet you just said, "We just want a

01:08:10.320 --> 01:08:11.517
billion dollar contract from the

01:08:11.600 --> 01:08:14.157
government." How do you work up like the

01:08:14.240 --> 01:08:17.677
the hueos, the confidence to think like

01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:21.917
I'm going to go in against all these
gray-haired suits and like they're going

01:08:22.000 --> 01:08:24.557
to the government's eventually going
to take me seriously and I'm going to sell

01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:28.317
this uh sell this thing. I mean, or do
you have people selling on your behalf?

01:08:28.400 --> 01:08:33.277
But like that that's just a reach for me
to understand. Some people think that I

01:08:33.360 --> 01:08:37.037
should that I should dress differently
and try to kind of you know appeal to

01:08:37.120 --> 01:08:41.197
the government sensibilities and like
you know I should be dressing in a suit

01:08:41.280 --> 01:08:44.637
and I should be very very straight laced
and you know be very very serious all

01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:49.197
the time but I think that one of the
most important things that is doing is

01:08:49.280 --> 01:08:53.757
not just building technology ourselves
but it's inspiring other companies to

01:08:53.840 --> 01:08:56.797
work in defense not just company like
inspiring companies that aren't in

01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:00.557
defense to pivot in defense
and inspiring people to start new defense

01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:05.357
companies and if they see me like
becoming a boring guy who's who's, you

01:09:05.440 --> 01:09:08.397
know, has to make himself super lame
to sell to the government, that's not a

01:09:08.480 --> 01:09:11.037
lifestyle that they're going to want
to lead, you know, and so we need to show

01:09:11.120 --> 01:09:14.397
that they can be successful and show
them that it's that it's going to be

01:09:14.480 --> 01:09:17.837
fun. Now, I also want to keep uh wearing
flip-flops and Hawaiian shirts. So,

01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:20.957
maybe I'm maybe this is just, you know,
postfacto justification. No, I'm on

01:09:21.040 --> 01:09:24.637
board. I I feel like I'd be doing
everyone a disservice if I were to change.

01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:27.757
>> Yeah, I think it's working. Now, you
know, we uh the podcast is all about the

01:09:27.840 --> 01:09:31.277
future. We're always brainstorming
ideas, opportunities. Uh but none of

01:09:31.360 --> 01:09:34.157
that matters if there's not really
a future. If this is about to become World

01:09:34.240 --> 01:09:38.477
War II and there's nukes flying
everywhere. So you're kind of uh a lot

01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:42.797
more in the loop than any guest
that we've ever had on this.

01:09:42.880 --> 01:09:46.557
What's going to happen here? Is this what
are the odds of like you know this

01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:50.157
sort of Ukraine Russia conflict breaking
out into something a lot more serious

01:09:50.240 --> 01:09:52.477
and like you know is there going to be a

01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:57.357
nuclear weapon you know in our near
future? So I mean it's very hard to

01:09:57.440 --> 01:10:00.797
predict. There's people who are better
at this than me. Like what I always tell

01:10:00.880 --> 01:10:04.557
people is like our role is to build
the tools and then you have to trust in

01:10:04.640 --> 01:10:07.517
democracy to deploy them correctly.
And people like, oh, you know, when would

01:10:07.600 --> 01:10:10.237
you stop supplying weapons to Ukraine?

01:10:10.320 --> 01:10:13.277
And you know, is there a point where
you'd be too, you know, where you where

01:10:13.360 --> 01:10:16.557
you think that we should where you
would make sure that you're not part of a

01:10:16.640 --> 01:10:20.957
nuclear escalation? And I say, listen,
if you believe in democracy at all, then

01:10:21.040 --> 01:10:23.117
you should not want US foreign policy to

01:10:23.200 --> 01:10:28.237
be dictated by the everchanging whims
of technology executives. Like what an

01:10:28.320 --> 01:10:32.077
extraordinarily dangerous precedent
to set that you you'll build weapons for

01:10:32.160 --> 01:10:34.237
the people you are politically aligned

01:10:34.320 --> 01:10:37.197
with and then you'll suddenly drop it uh

01:10:37.280 --> 01:10:41.917
despite the like what it really is is I
will sell to the people that the US

01:10:42.000 --> 01:10:45.997
state department and the US DOD want
me to like if if that that because they

01:10:46.080 --> 01:10:50.317
have information that I don't they
have uh intelligence that I do not and I

01:10:50.400 --> 01:10:54.237
cannot second guessess that and say oh
you know I I would stop supplying if I

01:10:54.320 --> 01:10:57.197
thought there was this level of of
escalation but you know with that out of

01:10:57.280 --> 01:11:02.157
the way I think that we are going to see
a tactical nuke get used. Uh and and for

01:11:02.240 --> 01:11:05.277
people who are not familiar with the
difference, tactical nuclear weapons are

01:11:05.360 --> 01:11:08.157
designed for tactical use as part of a

01:11:08.240 --> 01:11:10.557
battle uh for basically conventional

01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:13.677
warfare tactic. So blowing up uh you

01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:16.157
blowing up uh an armor division or

01:11:16.240 --> 01:11:18.237
taking out a wing of bombers or maybe

01:11:18.320 --> 01:11:20.717
even destroying an airfield. Strategic

01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:24.077
nuclear weapons are used to deter mass

01:11:24.160 --> 01:11:28.237
nuclear exchange and to engage in, you

01:11:28.320 --> 01:11:32.317
know, strategic level annihilation
of cities and the like. Uh the United

01:11:32.400 --> 01:11:36.157
States disassembled all of our tactical
nuclear weapons a long time ago. We

01:11:36.240 --> 01:11:38.397
decided that our warrant doctrine did

01:11:38.480 --> 01:11:41.117
not allow for tactical nukes. Nukes are

01:11:41.200 --> 01:11:45.837
only something you use at a strategic
level to deter other people from using

01:11:45.920 --> 01:11:49.997
them against you. That is not the case
for Russia. Russia has tactical nuclear

01:11:50.080 --> 01:11:52.317
weapons. It's they train to use them.

01:11:52.400 --> 01:11:54.237
They it is part of their doctrine that

01:11:54.320 --> 01:11:56.077
they will use them in conventional

01:11:56.160 --> 01:11:59.517
conflict and they are like even just

01:11:59.600 --> 01:12:01.917
having that in their doctrine shows that

01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:06.557
to some degree they are willing to bet
that the United States and nobody else

01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:08.477
would respond with strategic nuclear

01:12:08.560 --> 01:12:11.037
weapons in response to use of a tactical

01:12:11.120 --> 01:12:15.597
nuclear weapon. And the you know some
people say oh even saying that they'll

01:12:15.680 --> 01:12:19.837
use a nuke is akin to supporting Russia
and saying we shouldn't support Ukraine.

01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:24.157
I'm not saying that at all. I think
actually appeasement has the the longer

01:12:24.240 --> 01:12:27.037
that they're actually the the greater
risk. I mean if you can show if you show

01:12:27.120 --> 01:12:29.597
to the world that if you show to a world

01:12:29.680 --> 01:12:32.797
that even the threat of smallcale

01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:35.517
tactical nuclear weapons is enough to

01:12:35.600 --> 01:12:40.077
deter any kind
of intervention in any kind of

01:12:40.160 --> 01:12:41.837
con in any kind of conventional warfare.

01:12:41.920 --> 01:12:45.677
You actually hugely incentivize the
nations of the world to obtain their own

01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:49.037
tactical nuclear weapons. you you
you you don't really actually want the

01:12:49.120 --> 01:12:53.117
calculus to tip that way where countries
look and say, "Wow, all Russia had to do

01:12:53.200 --> 01:12:56.317
was threaten to use their tactical nukes
and then they were allowed to operate

01:12:56.400 --> 01:13:01.197
with impunity in a conventional invasion
and nobody was willing to stop to do

01:13:01.280 --> 01:13:05.517
anything about it or even stop buying
their exports like that. That's the that

01:13:05.600 --> 01:13:09.597
that that would be a very very bad
precedent to set even beyond this war."

01:13:09.680 --> 01:13:13.197
And [snorts] so for that reason,
I I think this is a little contrarian and

01:13:13.280 --> 01:13:17.597
not everyone agrees, but I think that
the odds of a tactical nuclear weapon

01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:21.757
are very high. It will not be used
on the United States. It will not be used

01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:24.317
on a NATO ally. It'll probably be a

01:13:24.400 --> 01:13:26.797
tactical nuclear weapon used to strike

01:13:26.880 --> 01:13:29.677
some inarguably military target. Like it

01:13:29.760 --> 01:13:33.837
probably they're not gonna they're not
going to nuke Kev. uh it it's much more

01:13:33.920 --> 01:13:38.477
likely that it would be a port or a you
know or or an air installation or or

01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:41.837
something like that. And I the reason I
like to talk about this is I want people

01:13:41.920 --> 01:13:43.597
to get comfortable with this because

01:13:43.680 --> 01:13:46.557
there's this idea that you know you use

01:13:46.640 --> 01:13:51.197
you use a you use a nuclear weapon and
all of a sudden you're in World War II.

01:13:51.280 --> 01:13:54.637
Uh, I think that's actually probably
the wrong the wrong way to look at it

01:13:54.720 --> 01:13:59.277
because if you do that, you're tacitly
admitting that tactical nuclear weapons

01:13:59.360 --> 01:14:03.517
deserve a strategic nuclear level
response. And if you set that up as, you

01:14:03.600 --> 01:14:07.597
know, the the nice lubricated path we
all slide down, yeah, things can get

01:14:07.680 --> 01:14:10.957
really bad really.
>> This sounds like selfish and trite, but

01:14:11.040 --> 01:14:14.317
I I think I it's important to me and I
bet you it's important to a lot of

01:14:14.400 --> 01:14:17.037
people. What does that mean for me? uh a

01:14:17.120 --> 01:14:19.917
uh wealthy American with money in the

01:14:20.000 --> 01:14:23.437
stock market who lives in a nice life

01:14:23.520 --> 01:14:27.037
like does that mean that like uh
inflation is going to get huge? Does

01:14:27.120 --> 01:14:29.997
that mean that my investments are going
to go down? Does that mean that like

01:14:30.080 --> 01:14:33.357
people I know I don't know anyone
in Ukraine so I I care about them but like

01:14:33.440 --> 01:14:38.717
does that mean people I know are going
to get hurt. What does that mean for me?

01:14:38.800 --> 01:14:41.837
It's a fair question. You know I'm in a
different position. I know I know people

01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:45.597
who are from Ukraine. I I know people
who are in Ukraine. So for me it al it

01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:49.437
does get a little bit personal and we we
have employees here who are who who are

01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:52.557
deeply deeply you know involved in one

01:14:52.640 --> 01:14:56.957
way or another with the people of Ukraine.
Um but I I think mostly you

01:14:57.040 --> 01:15:00.557
need to boil it now not to necessarily
Ukraine specific question but the the

01:15:00.640 --> 01:15:03.197
broader geopolitical question is the

01:15:03.280 --> 01:15:06.397
United States the world police? Are we

01:15:06.480 --> 01:15:09.597
going to help our allies and to what

01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:13.677
extent? And I I'm not saying that that
necessarily means that we need to throw

01:15:13.760 --> 01:15:18.237
ourselves into World War II over
every conflict, but we do need to very

01:15:18.320 --> 01:15:19.997
carefully weigh like what what will

01:15:20.080 --> 01:15:25.277
happen in Taiwan if we completely pull
that like there's a million ways to

01:15:25.360 --> 01:15:28.237
tackle this. So, I'm not trying to set
up a straw man here, but I I'll throw

01:15:28.320 --> 01:15:31.677
out one that is actually very popular
with certain politicians. They say we

01:15:31.760 --> 01:15:34.477
should completely pull out. We should

01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:39.037
not engage. This is not our problem.
Let the let the ex-s Soviet guys duke it

01:15:39.120 --> 01:15:41.087
out. they can do whatever they want.

01:15:41.170 --> 01:15:45.437
[clears throat] Well, one there
the first issue is uh our European allies

01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:47.917
are going to be in pretty bad shape if

01:15:48.000 --> 01:15:49.917
they [snorts] have Russia right on their

01:15:50.000 --> 01:15:53.357
border able to move deep deep deep into

01:15:53.440 --> 01:15:57.517
Europe without any kind of buffer. More
importantly, what do you think China's

01:15:57.600 --> 01:16:00.717
going to do if they see that that's the
United States attitude? They say, "Wow,

01:16:00.800 --> 01:16:04.797
like there there there is a price they
will not pay. Uh there is there is a

01:16:04.880 --> 01:16:07.837
certain level they are not willing to get
engaged at. If we can raise the cost

01:16:07.920 --> 01:16:10.317
above that level, then they will make

01:16:10.400 --> 01:16:12.797
the short-term decision to not get

01:16:12.880 --> 01:16:15.037
engaged. That's very dangerous for

01:16:15.120 --> 01:16:17.597
Taiwan, which is in turn very dangerous

01:16:17.680 --> 01:16:20.157
for semiconductors and for our entire

01:16:20.240 --> 01:16:22.957
economy. Like I if Taiwan actually gets

01:16:23.040 --> 01:16:27.757
invaded by China, you could see a 30 or
40% drop in the stock market beyond what

01:16:27.840 --> 01:16:31.517
we've already seen. Like that that's not
even that's not even a that's not even a

01:16:31.600 --> 01:16:33.837
a crazy assumption. That's like a pretty

01:16:33.920 --> 01:16:36.317
well backed up by all of the the boring

01:16:36.400 --> 01:16:41.037
establishment e economics guys uh
prediction. So that that that the way

01:16:41.120 --> 01:16:43.117
that I see it is you your question. Why

01:16:43.200 --> 01:16:46.637
should I care? Because if we want to

01:16:46.720 --> 01:16:51.437
maintain credibility as a player that can
deter wars, not just win wars, then

01:16:51.520 --> 01:16:55.757
we have to take actions that maintain
our credibility there. If we if if we

01:16:55.840 --> 01:16:59.117
were to say the ultimate version of this,
which is you're on your own world,

01:16:59.200 --> 01:17:03.037
we're all and we're going to do our own
thing. uh we're going to get screwed by

01:17:03.120 --> 01:17:05.197
that very very quickly. And so there's

01:17:05.280 --> 01:17:08.317
something between zero engagement and

01:17:08.400 --> 01:17:12.237
you know D-Day 2.0 that we have to do.

01:17:12.320 --> 01:17:16.557
>> This is great. Uh Palmer, where can
people find you if they want to go work

01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:20.317
at Andrew or you know read more of your
stuff, your blog, your Twitter? Where

01:17:20.400 --> 01:17:23.037
where should people follow you
or find you if they like this?

01:17:23.120 --> 01:17:27.437
>> Oh man. Well, my my my my handle
my handle across social media is Palmer

01:17:27.520 --> 01:17:31.677
Techch. Um, but on you can find me
on Twitter under the handle Palmerlucky.

01:17:31.760 --> 01:17:34.397
Uh, there's my website palmerlucky.com.

01:17:34.480 --> 01:17:36.317
The number one Palmerlucky blog on the

01:17:36.400 --> 01:17:39.997
internet and is also WordPress site spun

01:17:40.080 --> 01:17:44.317
up. I'm coming for you. Uh, >> oh well.
Hey, mine's WordPress, too.

01:17:44.400 --> 01:17:48.157
Great tool. >> Yeah, just tell
me about Palmerlucky69.com.

01:17:48.240 --> 01:17:50.077
He's is this new project
he's [laughter] working on.

01:17:50.160 --> 01:17:52.797
>> Yeah, it's got a lot of promise.

01:17:52.880 --> 01:17:55.837
>> Oh, man. I got to check this out.
That sounds right up [laughter] my alley.

01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:58.077
>> Oh, wait, wait.
I forgot. Do you want to

01:17:58.160 --> 01:18:02.157
rip a WWE style promo at Jason Calacanis

01:18:02.240 --> 01:18:06.157
who's coming after you? He's challenging
you to a fight. Why would you challenge

01:18:06.240 --> 01:18:09.997
a guy who builds weapons for a living to
a fight? I don't understand this. But if

01:18:10.080 --> 01:18:14.477
you want to rip a a WWE style promo,
this is this is the place. There are

01:18:14.560 --> 01:18:18.717
100,000 entrepreneurs ready to back you
here if you can get them on your side.

01:18:18.800 --> 01:18:22.557
>> I mean, maybe this is because I all
like, look, I'm I don't know if you can

01:18:22.640 --> 01:18:24.157
tell, but like I'm actually a pretty big

01:18:24.240 --> 01:18:26.317
guy. Like, I weigh about 250 lbs. I'm

01:18:26.400 --> 01:18:31.277
six feet tall. Um, like I it's kind of I

01:18:31.360 --> 01:18:34.717
understand the mechanics of fighting
well enough and I've I've done enough of

01:18:34.800 --> 01:18:37.197
it recreationally to understand that

01:18:37.280 --> 01:18:39.037
it's unlikely that somebody who's like,

01:18:39.120 --> 01:18:42.637
you know, 5'5 and 140 lbs is going to is

01:18:42.720 --> 01:18:46.637
is going to have a a good shot. But I
the thing is I don't I'm not I'm not a

01:18:46.720 --> 01:18:48.157
I'm not a physical violence kind of guy.

01:18:48.240 --> 01:18:50.157
I I think it's weird to be like, "Oh

01:18:50.240 --> 01:18:54.557
yeah, you you you you don't like me.

01:18:54.640 --> 01:18:57.837
Well, I could beat you in in hand-to-hand
combat. It's like, well, I

01:18:57.920 --> 01:19:01.677
mean, maybe, but like your ideas
are still bad, [laughter] but it's it

01:19:01.760 --> 01:19:06.397
doesn't one doesn't one doesn't solve
the other. Um, so no, I unfortunately I

01:19:06.480 --> 01:19:09.037
don't think I'll be throwing I don't
think I'll be throwing down the gauntlet

01:19:09.120 --> 01:19:14.077
beyond beyond noting that just you
statistically speaking, you know, if if

01:19:14.160 --> 01:19:18.477
you just look at the fights between
people of of of one bulk versus another,

01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:20.157
you there's there's there's a clear trend.

01:19:20.240 --> 01:19:22.317
>> Is this the most Silicon Valley, dude?

01:19:22.400 --> 01:19:26.477
Is [laughter] this the most
Silicon Valley call out ever?

01:19:26.560 --> 01:19:28.367
>> I am I know the mechanics of fighting.

01:19:28.450 --> 01:19:30.470
[laughter]

01:19:31.280 --> 01:19:36.370
>> I I physics is on my side, [laughter]

01:19:36.560 --> 01:19:40.237
But uh yeah, you know, I mean, and for
and for people who are listening and

01:19:40.320 --> 01:19:42.557
don't know, the very short version is J

01:19:42.640 --> 01:19:45.437
Jason Calacanis said a bunch of really

01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:48.157
awful stuff about me for for years

01:19:48.240 --> 01:19:51.677
starting back in 2016. You know, when he

01:19:51.760 --> 01:19:55.437
said that I'm a terrible person, that I
don't care about my family or my I think

01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:57.357
he said Palmer Lucky is a complete

01:19:57.440 --> 01:20:02.477
who doesn't care about his employees or
his families or his friends. Uh and then

01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:05.757
you know Palmer's an idiot.
He's a Zuckerberg should fire him, get

01:20:05.840 --> 01:20:09.597
rid of him, what a useless waste of space.
Then I get fired, he celebrates

01:20:09.680 --> 01:20:12.477
it over and over. Oh man, I'm so glad
they fired Palmer. What a terrible

01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:16.557
loser, etc., etc. Anyway, then he just
didn't then he just didn't talk to me

01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:21.357
for years. Never reached out and then
he invited me to go speak at uh on his

01:20:21.440 --> 01:20:24.957
podcast and then at his conference. So
I went there and I I basically just told

01:20:25.040 --> 01:20:28.557
people I'm like, I can't believe Jason
invited me. It's only because I've

01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:32.397
clawed my way back to having a second
unicorn before the age of 30. like this

01:20:32.480 --> 01:20:36.557
guy treated me like total garbage for
years. He's never apologized. He spread

01:20:36.640 --> 01:20:40.397
a bunch of li even insult aside.
He spread a bunch of lies about me. And

01:20:40.480 --> 01:20:43.517
then uh at at the com and I said, "Hey,
here look at all this he said about

01:20:43.600 --> 01:20:47.197
me." Like this. >> Yeah. You had like
a like a deck. It was amazing. [laughter]

01:20:47.280 --> 01:20:51.597
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and then uh and I
did that at the end of my talk about, you

01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:54.397
know, basically the the future
of conflict and particularly the war in

01:20:54.480 --> 01:20:58.477
Ukraine. And then at the conference
he said that he was sorry if he said

01:20:58.560 --> 01:21:02.237
anything that offended me. But then when
he put my video up, he said, "Actually,

01:21:02.320 --> 01:21:04.477
I take it back. Everything that I said

01:21:04.560 --> 01:21:09.357
was accurate and I don't regret exactly
what I said about him." Um, and I and so

01:21:09.440 --> 01:21:12.957
I now people people keep hitting me up
like you guys need to bury the hatchet,

01:21:13.040 --> 01:21:17.677
you know, meet in the middle. I'm like,
I didn't do anything to like you you

01:21:17.760 --> 01:21:20.877
can't meet in the middle. Like, you're
right. Maybe maybe I don't care about my

01:21:20.960 --> 01:21:24.477
family, but you know, we can admit I I
care about my friends. Let's meet in the

01:21:24.560 --> 01:21:27.517
middle. It's like, no, no, it's not
going to happen. Uh anyway, so now now

01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:29.037
Jason's saying that he can that he can

01:21:29.120 --> 01:21:32.557
beat me up uh on and he's uh and and and

01:21:32.640 --> 01:21:36.717
you know, look, maybe he could,
but the odds don't seem in his favor.

01:21:36.800 --> 01:21:40.317
>> I do think he trains jiu-jitsu, so you
know, he does have that going for him if

01:21:40.400 --> 01:21:44.397
I recall correctly. >> Hey,
you know, I I I I did I did karate

01:21:44.480 --> 01:21:48.717
one [laughter] time when I was a kid,
you know, but eventually but eventually

01:21:48.800 --> 01:21:51.117
you get old. [laughter] >> Yeah.

01:21:51.200 --> 01:21:55.277
Well, now it's it's been wild for me cuz
I mean my whole career I've been uh my

01:21:55.360 --> 01:21:57.037
my my whole career I've been a whiz kid.

01:21:57.120 --> 01:22:00.877
You know, it's like the Palmer lucky
value proposition is wow, look at that

01:22:00.960 --> 01:22:04.877
guy. He's improbably successful given
his age. And now it's just look at

01:22:04.960 --> 01:22:08.797
Palmer. He's Yeah, he's successful.
I guess [laughter] you know 30.

01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.317
>> Yeah, I wouldn't really want to deal
with the psychological with you or

01:22:12.400 --> 01:22:16.797
anything. And also uh you know I find
Jason very entertaining. I like I don't

01:22:16.880 --> 01:22:19.517
know him personally very well
or anything but but you know he's

01:22:19.600 --> 01:22:23.997
entertaining but he also I think was
totally wrong in this uh circumstance. I

01:22:24.080 --> 01:22:26.477
remember when I first heard him say
all that I looked it up. I was like

01:22:26.560 --> 01:22:29.517
man Palmer must have well actually
called you Parker Lucky. I was like oh

01:22:29.600 --> 01:22:33.357
man this Parker Lucky this pluckucky
little guy must have done something

01:22:33.440 --> 01:22:37.357
really messed up. And then I saw what
was actually done and I saw the coverage

01:22:37.440 --> 01:22:42.317
and I was like oh he he donated $10,000
to you know like this thing or whatever.

01:22:42.400 --> 01:22:45.277
And you know, you you were >> whatever.

01:22:45.360 --> 01:22:48.557
>> But Jason was out there saying he
says Palmer's paying Trump supporters.

01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:51.677
>> Extreme terror trolling. Anti Yeah.

01:22:51.760 --> 01:22:56.077
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extreme terror trolling.
He said not quite violent, but

01:22:56.160 --> 01:22:58.157
close to it. And he's posting

01:22:58.240 --> 01:23:01.597
anti-semitic memes and misogynistic hate

01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:05.517
attacks. It's like, dude, it was $9,000
to a billboard. Like, you've you've

01:23:05.600 --> 01:23:10.317
given a heck of a lot more [laughter]
to spicier political stuff than that. But

01:23:10.400 --> 01:23:13.357
you know, you know,
in a political cause or a

01:23:13.440 --> 01:23:16.557
political donation is nothing. Like, you
know, I think that's one of the big one

01:23:16.640 --> 01:23:18.877
of the big hypocrisies,
>> not as mainstream as you can get.

01:23:18.960 --> 01:23:21.277
>> One of the big hypocrisies
of Silicon Valley is like it's all about

01:23:21.360 --> 01:23:24.077
open-mindedness. Unless you disagree
with us, unless you unless you believe

01:23:24.160 --> 01:23:27.677
in the thing I don't agree with, then
how dare you believe that, you know, how

01:23:27.760 --> 01:23:30.717
dare you support that candidate I don't
like. How dare you, you know, that half

01:23:30.800 --> 01:23:33.197
the country, you know, votes
for or whatever. It's one of the great

01:23:33.280 --> 01:23:37.117
hypocrisies. It's so it's so and it's so
foreign to me too cuz I mean like one of

01:23:37.200 --> 01:23:39.037
my best friends is a socialist and like

01:23:39.120 --> 01:23:41.357
we had we very we we strongly disagree

01:23:41.440 --> 01:23:44.317
politically but like you running Oculus

01:23:44.400 --> 01:23:46.637
I was never I I I like I had my

01:23:46.720 --> 01:23:49.277
political beliefs but they were like 1%

01:23:49.360 --> 01:23:52.477
of my time in thinking 99% of it was on

01:23:52.560 --> 01:23:56.317
VR in my company and it's it's it's
actually very funny where like I there

01:23:56.400 --> 01:24:00.157
was a story recently said you know
Palmer Palmer Lucky you know a very

01:24:00.240 --> 01:24:02.397
outspoken Republican. I'm like, I mean,

01:24:02.480 --> 01:24:04.557
I've literally tweeted about politics

01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:08.077
two times in eight years. Like, yeah,

01:24:08.160 --> 01:24:11.597
I'm not outspoken by any means, but to
them it means like, oh, there was this

01:24:11.680 --> 01:24:16.157
story years ago where he privately
donated not using his name, and that

01:24:16.240 --> 01:24:18.397
means he's an outspoken Republican. And

01:24:18.480 --> 01:24:20.157
you know, imagine if people were like,

01:24:20.240 --> 01:24:23.437
Mark Zuckerberg, outspoken Democrat,

01:24:23.520 --> 01:24:27.437
does X. Like, nobody nobody would ever
>> autoorrect would be like, you must have

01:24:27.520 --> 01:24:30.317
made a mistake. This sentence
doesn't get typed. [laughter]

01:24:30.400 --> 01:24:34.077
Yeah. Yeah. But you know I mean that but
that that's the best part about Anderall

01:24:34.160 --> 01:24:35.677
is that you know like I have my

01:24:35.760 --> 01:24:37.757
political beliefs like our CEO Brian

01:24:37.840 --> 01:24:41.197
Ship he's he's very much a Democrat. Uh

01:24:41.280 --> 01:24:45.117
and we have a huge mix of people
at Anderol across the entire political

01:24:45.200 --> 01:24:48.397
spectrum. And what we've done is said
listen we we might not agree on

01:24:48.480 --> 01:24:51.357
everything but we agree on the
importance of national security. We

01:24:51.440 --> 01:24:55.597
agree that the United States needs
to have the tools that deter Russia, China

01:24:55.680 --> 01:24:59.917
and other aggressors from getting into
fights with our partners and allies. and

01:25:00.000 --> 01:25:03.917
we agree that we can save taxpayers
hundreds of billions of dollars a year

01:25:04.000 --> 01:25:06.637
while we make tens of billions of dollars
a year. And if we agree on those

01:25:06.720 --> 01:25:09.837
things, we need to put aside
the differences and you focus on what's

01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:12.957
what's the same. And I think that's
been a really healthy company company

01:25:13.040 --> 01:25:15.997
culture. Like a lot of other companies,
you know, they they'll they want to take

01:25:16.080 --> 01:25:19.277
one political side of the other. And
we've been very clear, no, we are not a

01:25:19.360 --> 01:25:24.237
politically uh oriented company. We are
a missionoriented company. And to the

01:25:24.320 --> 01:25:27.437
extent like if a Republican does
something that's bad for our mission,

01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:31.597
we're going to push back on it. If
a Democrat does something that is bad for

01:25:31.680 --> 01:25:35.197
our mission, we're going to push back on
it. But it needs to be about our ability

01:25:35.280 --> 01:25:39.597
to, you know, defend the West, not our,
you know, our personal opinions on how

01:25:39.680 --> 01:25:43.197
the country should be run. So [laughter]
that's that that's I I highly encourage

01:25:43.280 --> 01:25:46.797
people to set that to set that tone when
they're starting their own companies if

01:25:46.880 --> 01:25:50.317
you want to be able to attract people
from all over the country, all over the

01:25:50.400 --> 01:25:53.197
world, of all different political
persuasions. Cuz if you pick a side,

01:25:53.280 --> 01:25:56.397
you're you're alienating huge swats of
people. Not just the people who disagree

01:25:56.480 --> 01:26:00.637
with you, but also people who don't want
to be in a company that's partisan and

01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:03.197
might not even care one way or the other.
I I know there's a lot of people

01:26:03.280 --> 01:26:06.877
here like, look, I don't I don't even
really have a strong political set of

01:26:06.960 --> 01:26:10.637
beliefs. Uh but I do know I don't want
to work in a place where that's the

01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:12.157
thing that drives all our decisions.

01:26:12.240 --> 01:26:14.637
>> You're like, oh, we got the office
socialist just walking around giving

01:26:14.720 --> 01:26:16.077
away snacks. It's awesome. It's great.

01:26:16.160 --> 01:26:17.997
You need a diverse workplace like this.

01:26:18.080 --> 01:26:20.317
This is awesome, >> dude.
You're awesome, man. I'm That's

01:26:20.400 --> 01:26:24.397
right. I'm so pumped that uh you came on.
Uh this is this is this has been

01:26:24.480 --> 01:26:26.557
amazing. I would love
you to come on again.

01:26:26.640 --> 01:26:29.517
>> Well, wait. I have to bring up one
more thing. I have to bring up one more

01:26:29.600 --> 01:26:34.317
thing. I So, I I get a chance to bring
something up. Fine. Uh I I we we we we

01:26:34.400 --> 01:26:38.477
got we got to talk about the the tweet
you made where you said that uh there's

01:26:38.560 --> 01:26:42.157
no way that there's any billionaires out
there [laughter] that actually fly coach

01:26:42.240 --> 01:26:44.957
AND DON'T FLY. >> OH, YES.
GOOD. You have got a good

01:26:45.040 --> 01:26:48.957
memory. Do you do you fly coach? Oh, you
you do fly coach. You said that. You're

01:26:49.040 --> 01:26:50.957
an idiot. What are you doing?
JKL was right.

01:26:51.040 --> 01:26:55.837
>> No, it [laughter] it I mean,
so so I I I the reason I wanted

01:26:55.920 --> 01:26:58.557
to chat about it is because yeah,
I think I responded. I told you like, hey,

01:26:58.640 --> 01:27:02.477
you're wrong. Like I I actually do I
don't fly private and I do fly coach. Uh

01:27:02.560 --> 01:27:04.237
for me, it's it's a it's a it's a

01:27:04.320 --> 01:27:08.317
reasoned thing where uh we we exceptions

01:27:08.400 --> 01:27:12.237
for long ter like long long
international travel, we only cover

01:27:12.320 --> 01:27:16.077
coach travel for our employees. It's
like look, it's only a few hours. like

01:27:16.160 --> 01:27:19.757
it is a very bad use of company money
for us to be buying business or first

01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:22.157
class for people because we have so much

01:27:22.240 --> 01:27:24.477
travel at the company. We could easily

01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:27.757
spend a very serious fraction of our of

01:27:27.840 --> 01:27:32.397
our uh of our resources on just people
traveling in slightly better seats. And

01:27:32.480 --> 01:27:35.597
so, and it's especially especially bad
when it's like, oh, am I really going to

01:27:35.680 --> 01:27:39.517
pay you to like, you know, fly business
class for three hours to a place where

01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:43.037
you're then going to like sweat it out
in the desert for for a week? Like, you

01:27:43.120 --> 01:27:46.397
know, it's it's only like, you know, >>
so you coach seats better than the desert.

01:27:46.480 --> 01:27:49.037
>> You and your wife or your girlfriend
or whatever, if you're going to Europe,

01:27:49.120 --> 01:27:52.317
you're going to fly coach.
>> Even when I use my own money, I fly

01:27:52.400 --> 01:27:54.957
coach. And people say, "Well, why don't
you just fly first class? Why don't you

01:27:55.040 --> 01:27:59.277
fly business?" And here's why. Because
I expect my employees to fly coach. And

01:27:59.360 --> 01:28:04.077
even like yes, I have a lot of money,
but it's if I don't also do it, it feels

01:28:04.160 --> 01:28:07.437
like I'm out of touch or I don't know
what it's like or you know, oh, it's

01:28:07.520 --> 01:28:10.957
easy for you to say that we should fly
coach because you don't have to do it

01:28:11.040 --> 01:28:13.757
because you happen to have a bunch of
money. And so for for me, a lot of it is

01:28:13.840 --> 01:28:17.837
setting example like look, it's not
actually that bad. I am willing to do it

01:28:17.920 --> 01:28:22.317
even when I pay for my own travel.
Uh because that's I I think it's just not

01:28:22.400 --> 01:28:25.037
that bad. >> Don't you
have like people who want to

01:28:25.120 --> 01:28:28.757
like kill you or like hurt you?
I mean, aren't you like a I mean, like

01:28:28.840 --> 01:28:32.157
[laughter] like you've got the whole
anti-Trump crowd who sees you and

01:28:32.240 --> 01:28:34.877
they're like, "Go f yourself." And then
now you're like dealing with Lockhee

01:28:34.960 --> 01:28:38.797
Martin and stuff. Surely they want
to like kneecap you. You got you're your I

01:28:38.880 --> 01:28:41.197
don't know what your state
is on China, but >> fanatics.

01:28:41.280 --> 01:28:44.237
>> Yeah. You got Jason Calcan is going to
come trying to put you in a nuggie. Like

01:28:44.320 --> 01:28:46.957
something's going to happen. [laughter]
You know what I mean? Like surely like

01:28:47.040 --> 01:28:48.557
there's like some type of security risk.

01:28:48.640 --> 01:28:51.437
Also, maybe you have life insurance or
something like that. If they're going to

01:28:51.520 --> 01:28:55.117
insure you, I'd be like, "Dog,
you're doing you're you got to have this a

01:28:55.200 --> 01:28:58.477
security person with you or you got to
like have someone with you." Like surely

01:28:58.560 --> 01:29:00.237
there's some type of security risk where

01:29:00.320 --> 01:29:03.357
you got to think like beyond just like,

01:29:03.440 --> 01:29:08.317
"Hey guys, I'm in solitude with you on
this flight." Like I get it. Like I mean

01:29:08.400 --> 01:29:11.597
surely there's some type of like
>> You're to you're you're to you're

01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:14.957
totally right. And I I mean it depends
on the trip where the trip is and what

01:29:15.040 --> 01:29:19.437
I'm doing. And like I I'm I I make sure
to keep myself safe. Um, and I probably

01:29:19.520 --> 01:29:21.917
don't want to get into the specifics
because, you know, like you said,

01:29:22.000 --> 01:29:25.997
there's people out there who who who
are not fans of me and like they you you

01:29:26.080 --> 01:29:29.597
mentioned, you know, Jason Calcanis
and the Trump people, but like what about

01:29:29.680 --> 01:29:32.877
the Mexican cartels that we've cost
hundreds of millions of dollars in drug

01:29:32.960 --> 01:29:36.317
trade? What about, you know, all
the people who have been foiled in attacks

01:29:36.400 --> 01:29:40.637
on US military forces because of our
stuff? And you there's there's actually

01:29:40.720 --> 01:29:42.797
a long list of people who are more who

01:29:42.880 --> 01:29:47.677
are scarier than than Jason Calacanis,
if you can believe it. Um, but uh, look,

01:29:47.760 --> 01:29:51.277
you you're right that to some degree
that that's a worry, but I also think

01:29:51.360 --> 01:29:54.397
that in general, if someone's going
to come to kill me, it's probably going to

01:29:54.480 --> 01:29:58.237
be a place where they know I'm going to
be. And there's there's there's actually

01:29:58.320 --> 01:30:02.237
much higher like to me, the high-risisk
place is actually not on a on a flight

01:30:02.320 --> 01:30:05.357
in the secure zone. Yeah. It's not
on Southwest in the secure zone of an

01:30:05.440 --> 01:30:09.517
airport. Uh, like there's actually it's
actually probably more likely to be the

01:30:09.600 --> 01:30:13.917
restaurants I go to too much. U, but I
anyway, I guess I want to explain that's

01:30:14.000 --> 01:30:17.277
why I do it. If if I'm going to ask my
employees to do it, I need to do it too.

01:30:17.360 --> 01:30:21.597
Even when it's my own money, even when
it's my own cost, because otherwise you

01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:25.277
are like you be you become an out it's
not just that I appear out of touch. I

01:30:25.360 --> 01:30:29.037
would literally be out of touch.
And look, maybe one day coach gets so bad

01:30:29.120 --> 01:30:32.317
that I tell everyone, guys, you know what?
I hear you. We're all going

01:30:32.400 --> 01:30:35.357
business now. Uh but I think
I think today is not that day.

01:30:35.440 --> 01:30:38.877
>> You're crazy. I I've agreed with
everything you've said except for that.

01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:41.997
You are crazy. >> Yeah. No,
I'm actually [laughter] glad

01:30:42.080 --> 01:30:45.357
you said this cuz I was feeling like,
man, this guy's great. He's funny. He's

01:30:45.440 --> 01:30:49.277
smart. He's just really big thinker.
I'm glad you have something you're totally

01:30:49.360 --> 01:30:52.397
wrong about. It makes me feel so much
better [laughter] in this interview.

01:30:52.480 --> 01:30:56.077
That's a great service you did
for everybody here by having this absolute

01:30:56.160 --> 01:31:00.477
nonsense policy for yourself. You know,
like if I go get you if I'm the guy who

01:31:00.560 --> 01:31:03.677
flies to go get that billion dollar
contract and I'm flying back, you know,

01:31:03.760 --> 01:31:06.877
in the in the sea zone
of Southwest, [laughter]

01:31:06.960 --> 01:31:10.877
I'm rioting the next day at work.
I'm telling you, I I love the I love the

01:31:10.960 --> 01:31:14.877
back of the plane on the window. Nobody
Nobody bothers you. You can get on. You

01:31:14.960 --> 01:31:18.077
can let everybody get off the plane
before you do. You don't have to fight

01:31:18.160 --> 01:31:22.157
anybody. You just, you know, let
everyone feel what I I got to throw this

01:31:22.240 --> 01:31:27.117
in. My my my grandpa was a pilot
for United Airlines for over 40 years. And

01:31:27.200 --> 01:31:30.797
so I also grew up around commercial
airlines. And so this might be another

01:31:30.880 --> 01:31:33.037
thing like to me there is a certain

01:31:33.120 --> 01:31:36.397
romanticism to like mass market, mass

01:31:36.480 --> 01:31:40.477
available air travel. Like what an
incredible thing. And we did it. America

01:31:40.560 --> 01:31:43.997
did it. We figured out how to make
it economically viable. And we build

01:31:44.080 --> 01:31:48.237
everyone else's airplanes. Like it it
is an American thing. And so I even when

01:31:48.320 --> 01:31:51.517
you're on everyone else's planes,
they're mostly made by Americans. And

01:31:51.600 --> 01:31:53.277
the ones that are made by Europeans were

01:31:53.360 --> 01:31:55.837
made with American technology. So I I uh

01:31:55.920 --> 01:32:01.037
look I I I also like to feet. I think
feet are gross. You're into coach. I

01:32:01.120 --> 01:32:03.837
think coach is gross. Boy, you know,
to each their own. And I think we'll leave

01:32:03.920 --> 01:32:05.037
it at that. Agree to disagree.

01:32:05.120 --> 01:32:08.957
>> Each their own. [laughter] No,
look, I uh I disagree with that

01:32:09.040 --> 01:32:12.237
opinion, but I respect it like hell and I
respect [laughter] you. You're you're

01:32:12.320 --> 01:32:15.197
the best, man. I would love for you
to come on if you want, like in a few

01:32:15.280 --> 01:32:19.197
weeks, a few months, whenever, and talk
some more about ideas. You're uh I'm a

01:32:19.280 --> 01:32:22.157
fan of yours, so this feels really
cool that you're here. Maybe we

01:32:22.240 --> 01:32:24.877
>> Thank you. I appreciate that. This This
has been a lot of fun. We covered some

01:32:24.960 --> 01:32:26.957
good ground today. >> Yes.
And maybe we've suckered you into

01:32:27.040 --> 01:32:30.077
beingcoming friends with us. So,
if you ever want, you could DM us DM us on

01:32:30.160 --> 01:32:33.677
Twitter. We have hobbies. Who knows?
I don't know. Maybe you we'll invite each

01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:36.397
other over and hang out. you could show
us a thing or two. I don't know. We'll

01:32:36.480 --> 01:32:39.677
see what happens. But, uh, this has been
awesome. Come on. Come on. Come on down

01:32:39.760 --> 01:32:42.157
anytime. >> All right.
Sweet. Thank you so much.

01:32:42.240 --> 01:32:46.120
>> All right. See you guys later.