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I remember there were times with the
thing I needed it would cost like $50

2
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and it was just like it was it was
inconceivable that I could afford it. I

3
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mean like honestly Oculus owes more to

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the iPhone than anything else. I mean
like if the iPhone wouldn't have existed

5
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there wouldn't have been broken iPhones
for me to buy, unlock, repair and sell

6
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on eBay. Like and I because I made tens

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of thousands of dollars as a teenager on

8
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that on that side hustle. Like like
if if that had not happened then Oculus

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probably wouldn't exist today.

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>> That's it.

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>> What's up? We got Palmer Lucky on
the podcast. Palmer is a billionaire. He

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created Oculus which he sold to Facebook.
He's created and which is now

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one of the biggest like government. They
make weapons for the government. And um

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super interesting guy. I'm going to call
it right now. I think this is a alltime

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episode. I don't know what's I don't
you know you guys know I don't hype it up

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like that unless it's legit. This was an
Alzheimer episode. Sam, what are some of

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the things that we talked about?

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>> So early on we asked him basically
what he did with his money. So he made

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hundreds of millions of dollars at the
age of like 23 or something like that.

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And we said where did you put your money?
And he was very clear on what he

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did with it. Uh he talked about some
of his early crypto investments. So he

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bought uh crypto way way early like
in 2010 I think he said. He talked about

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how he was making minimum wage and then
became a billionaire like four or five

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years after just making minimum wage.

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What else? >> Uh we talked
about a couple different

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things where he likes to hang out on
the internet. We're like, "Dude, where do

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how do you know about all this stuff?

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Where do you learn this stuff? What are
your subreddits? What are you what are

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you listening to and reading cuz I need
to start doing some of that." So he told

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us some of his favorite ways to go there.

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>> Do you remember he actually said
a Facebook group that he liked and he

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actually named the Facebook group which
I have a feeling it's going to get a lot

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more popular. And then
um yeah, he talked about

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basically like is World War III gonna
happen, right? He's he's supplying, you

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know, uh his company builds tech
for the defense department, Department of

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Defense. And so is World War II going
to happen? Is there going to be a nuke?

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What is a tactical nuke? >> Well,
you asked him a very specific

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question. You go, is Russia going to drop
a nuclear bomb? And his perspective

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is interesting.
I thought it was a good question.

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>> And then the best part was we said,
"All right, you sold Oculus and then you

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created Anderil, which is an even bigger
success. I think it's like valued at $8

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billion or something. But there was many
years in between. Did you consider doing

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any other ideas? And he opened up and he
was like, "Yeah, actually there were

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these two or three other ideas. He had
an idea about uh creating a new kind of

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prison. He had an idea that would try to

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solve obesity. Uh he had he had a couple
ideas and we go into depth brainstorming

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with him. So he had it all, man. He
had the the crazy backstory, the success

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story, but he also brought ideas. And then
he also argued with us about why he

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flies coach even though he's
a billionaire and um why he may or may not

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get into a fight with Jason Calacanis.

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And so this episode had it all.
Had fighting, had ideas, had success

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stories. It's got it all. All right,
enjoy this episode with Palmer Lucky. I

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I don't know. You don't need too much of
an intro, but I'll do it anyways. Palmer

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Lucky is here. Um created Oculus,

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created Anderil. Uh really interesting
dude. And uh and I think you know we

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have a bunch of topics so I'm not going
to kind of belabor the intro. Sam, I

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know you've been itching. We we just
you probably can't say the DM you you you

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sent to try to get Palmer on here.
You really wanted this man on the podcast.

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Why? My my first question is to you Sam.

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Why? >> So Palmer, I am like the king of
left-handed compliments. At least that's

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what they say about me. But I I mean
them as full-handed compliments or

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right-handed compliments, but basically
I love freaks. I love weirdos. I love

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extremists. not like in the political

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sense, but in the sense of like people

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who just go all in on stuff and or just

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passionate about maybe like nerdy or

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unconventional things and you go all in
on things and I love that. I love people

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even if I don't like what they're going
going all in on. I I'm crazy fascinated

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by that. And you seem one of those guys
who just goes all in on things. You've

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done a lot at a young age and I like
weirdos and I I put you in that in that

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category. >> Thank you.
I'm happy to be happy to be a

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weirdo. You know, I'd rather be I'd
rather either I'd rather be a person

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that uh that that people think ill or
or or well of than somebody nobody thinks

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of at all. >> I think well of you,
by the way. I think well of you.

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>> Sam had a poster at his office that
was like for his employees he was like let

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your freak flag fly that was like,
you know, one of like, you know, corporate

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values are typically like integrity and

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like determination and his was like be
a freak. Um all right. So, so let's start

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with um I I don't know. Let's start with

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some of the kind of we're going to try

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to as much we can avoid VR and avoid
the Facebook stuff because mostly just

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because you've talked about it a bunch
of places. I'm frankly I'm interested

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because I am actually a VR fanboy, but Sam
has has tried to forbid me from from

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asking those questions. So, we're going
to leave that at the end if I get a

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little extra time. But this is a podcast
that started. It's called My First

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Million because we're interested
in money and we think it's really funny

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that people are tap like money's like,
you know, the Silicon Valley things you

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have to pretend you
don't like money and like

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>> Oh, I know what you're talking about.

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Yeah. You know, we're we're not doing it
here for the money. You know, this money

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money's you know, money is not the real
objective. I actually tell my own

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employees at onboarding that if if
you work at a place where your boss is

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saying that, you should be worried
because it's it's one thing it's one

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thing to say that to the press. It's
one thing to say that in your marketing

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materials, but you you know if if your
employees don't believe that at the end

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of the day you're trying to make their
job a fiscally responsible decision, if

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you're effectively telling them you
could be making more money elsewhere and

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your financial success is not my

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priority, you should be concerned.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
And you kind of did

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the best of both. like for all the kind
of ironic people who are like we're

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trying to change the world with this

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like you know HR onboarding software you

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know uh you actually kind of did and

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still made a bunch of money doing it.
So you know it's not like an eitheror uh

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100%. I mean when when I started Oculus
it was not because I thought it would be

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the thing that would makes the most money.
There had never been a successful

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VR company in history to be clear and I
did it because it was something I was

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really passionate about. Now that said,
one of the things I'm most proud of in

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my whole career is that everyone who

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worked at Oculus achieved financial

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independence because we were able to build
something incredible. And I like I

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feel great that everyone who was part
of that mission and who supported me early

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on was able to make a bunch of money.

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And then a lot of them have gone on to do
incredible things. But uh Oculus was

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not was not was not done because I
thought it was the best way to make

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money. It's cuz I thought it really
was going to be the best way to change the

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world in the long run. Android was a
little different. I I that one it wasn't

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just, oh, this will be fun. I want to do
something really cool. Android was like

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I felt like I had to do it or things
were things were going to go really

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poorly. So, more more of a more
of a stick than a carrot on that one.

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>> How much did you
make off the Oculus sale?

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>> Oh man, I probably
shouldn't say because

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this is also one of those complex things
where you know there was the there was

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the sale. So there's what they believe
they called the merger consideration

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form of uh you know portion of the of

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the of the uh compensation and then they

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you know you cut an employment deal
where they say we're going to pay you

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you know this much for 5 years. I can
say that I I was locked I was locked up

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on a 5-year vesting schedule. So typical
would be four. Most of our employees

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were four. I got locked up for five cuz

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I was a key guy. And uh that that money

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technically is not for the acquisition.

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It's just what you're being paid for.

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Um, >> yep. So, and of and of course, you
know, you you can't you can't pretend you

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can't say they're the same thing or they
they're supposed to be treated differently

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>> tax-wise, compensation wise. And then,
of course, there's the bonuses. We had

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we had an earnout that was a it was a it
was a huge earnout. It was hundreds of

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millions of dollars for the founders
of the company if we could hit certain

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sales targets and user uh user like

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hours hours of time targets. And we

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actually had four years to hit those

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targets. and we we hit them within less
than two years. So, we actually did it's

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kind of funny when people like, "Oh man,
the acquisition must not be going as

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well as people expect." It's like,
"No, we maxed out the top bracket of our

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earnout uh because we we're we were
kicking butt." But, uh anyway, I it was

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in the hundreds of millions of dollars.

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I can tell you that in the healthy
hundreds of millions of dollars.

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>> Were you a bunch
of people who listen to this

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>> Oh, sorry. I'll go real quick.
A bunch of people who listen to this are

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founders and and like would want to sell
their company someday. Uh both me and

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Sam, we started this podcast right when
we both exited our companies because I

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was like, "All right, we're kind
of earning out." Well, we can't start

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another company right now, but like,
"Oh, we can start a podcast. That's that

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sounds kind of fun." And um and actually
just yesterday, I just closed on another

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sale of a company, but these are small
scale compared to what you did, right?

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Like, congratulations. >> Thank you.
But you you sold for I don't

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know two or three billion bucks.
How does that happen? Somebody, you know,

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Zuck comes over to your house and is like,
"I'll give you $3 billion for

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this." like how does that how does that
even how does that conversation go down

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um when when when it when you're talking
about the sort of like the grand slam

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type of outcomes? >> Well,
it's a it's a long story, but you

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know I I know I know Sam didn't
want to talk all about VR, but

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>> No, I this shit's interesting to me.

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>> Oh, great. We we don't won't talk about
VR optics and and the metaverse then.

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[snorts] Uh but I I guess on on the
business side of it, the interesting

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thing about the acquisition is that we

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didn't have any of intention of selling
initially when we first had our

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conversation with Facebook and I think
that really was was a positive thing uh

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because actually first time we talked I

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think basically we were offered
a billion dollars to sell uh and we said

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no we're not interested. We think this
company's easily going to surpass that

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value. We think it's not going to be
a problem for us to make more money and uh

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you know we we we're happy to work
with you guys but we we don't want to be

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>> by the way was that easy to say no to
a billion dollars. I mean you started this

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thing like on a Kickstarter dude like
you know at some point were you like

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>> was it hard to say no or was it
not not an issue at that point?

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>> It wasn't an issue for me and I think
I think different people had different

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opinions. I mean, look, if you if you
look over my career, I've made a lot of

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similar decisions. Like, when I
was starting Oculus, when I was deciding

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whether I was going to do a Kickstarter
or work for someone else, I actually had

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00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,157
a job on a job offer on the table from

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uh from Sony to run a PlayStation VR lab
uh you know, out of PlayStation Group.

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And when I turned them down,
they actually doubled the offer and then I

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had to turn them down again. And a lot
of people were wondering, how could you

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have done that? You know, how could you
have decided to do your own thing? It

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was so much higher risk.
And I think that a lot of it is is social

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00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,557
programming. You know, I grew up
watching media that conditioned me to

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believe that when you have an opportunity,
you have to take it when

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you know when you almost have to follow
the narrative. And looking back, I'm not

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00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:39,437
sure I could have done anything else.

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00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,477
Like, could I have stayed in school
instead of starting Oculus once I

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00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,397
realized I had this breakthrough in VR
technology? I think I could not have

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00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,917
possibly done it. There's it it it's
almost to the level of free will not

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00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,237
existing. I could not have chosen that.

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00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:53,757
Could I have gone and worked for Sony?

197
00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:56,797
Looking back, I don't think so. I think
I couldn't have made that decision. And

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00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,077
I think it's actually the same thing
with that billion-dollar offer. Like I

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00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,877
almost could not have said yes. You

200
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,197
know, like that that first offer.
I like narratively it makes no sense. It

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00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,797
doesn't align with what I've been
trained is what you do when you're a you

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00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,557
know, when you're a freethinking
iconoclast. And so I I couldn't have

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00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:19,037
done it. I think what what what happened
is a few things changed over over time

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after that initial offer. you know, we
didn't talk to to Facebook for for for a

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00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,877
few months after that. Um, and a few
things happened. One, it became clear

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00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,837
that our competition was not only

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00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,237
serious, but was going to be putting
massive dollars into their success.

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Something not a lot of people remember,
uh, but I certainly do cuz it was a big

209
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deal in my mind. The day that we
announced, no, the day we fin, it wasn't

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the day we announced, the day we
finalized the Facebook acquisition was

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the same day that Sony announced
PlayStation VR. And we had known that it

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was coming for a while. You we we
had actually even shown each other

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prototypes and stuff. But it really
reinforced this was a serious thing. We

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were going to have some of the biggest
games companies in the world putting

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hundreds of millions of dollars into
competing with us. And uh you know that

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that made I think our that made the the
pitch that Facebook came back with which

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is listen you maybe you could make more
money as an independent company but if

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you're with us we're going to make VR
happen much faster. So you know yes you

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you might make more money but you're
going to go much slower than if we were

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able to artificially supercharge your
growth far beyond even what you could do

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with venture capital. And they they were
willing to commit billions of dollars a

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year for a period of a decade or more.

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And that's that's a really tough thing
to turn down when you really believe in

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something. >> And is this
like literally Zuck coming

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to your house and talking to you about
this or is there like an army of lawyers

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in between you guys that are like,
you know, bankers and and corp dev people?

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>> It was a very small number of people.
I mean, it was it was I mean I I think

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that the the the the lawyers and the
accountants are much more likely to be

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involved in a deal when the deal
is contingent on uh you know your your

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00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,717
revenue and your multiples and your P&Ls
like that. that that's where you need to

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drag those people in to really make
a an assessment. This was such a highlevel

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00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,557
bet. It's not like, oh, I think that you
have this margin on your headset and

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you've sold this many development kits.

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It was so early and the technology is so
naysay. The real bet is, do you believe

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in the metaverse? Do you believe
that there's going to be a virtual world

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parallel to our own where you're living
and you're working and you're playing?

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And then most importantly, do you
believe this is the best team in the

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world to do it? And I didn't know this
at the time, but I found out later that

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Mark had been going around and talking
to various uh university research labs,

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00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,157
government research labs, talking
to a you seeing what other companies were

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doing. And their conclusion was we were

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way ahead of everyone else and that if
if this was going to happen, this shift

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to immersive computing, the final
computing platform arguably, uh that we

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were the people in the best position
to do it. And that's not something that a

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00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,117
lawyer can really give an opinion on.

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00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,677
It's not something that an accountant
can put a value on. It's it's it's a

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00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,437
it's a very high level bet.
>> What was your personal financial

248
00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,157
situation when you turned
down the billion dollar offer?

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>> So, at the time uh early early
in Oculus, so I I mean I started Oculus

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00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,797
using my own money and at that time
I was working a minimum wage job and

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living in a 19 ft camper trailer. I
was 19 years old. So for people who aren't

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familiar with the story to that degree,
I mean I had almost no money. literally

253
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had a few hundred dollars in my bank
account because I spent all the money

254
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,117
that I made putting myself through
school and working on virtual reality

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technology and I was extraordinarily
and I I had a minimum wage job. I was also

256
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,037
fixing computers on the side for a while.
I'd been buying broken iPhones,

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put fixing them and unlocking them,
selling those for spare cash. And so I

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00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,797
you know I I'd burned a lot of money on

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00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,917
my on my on my nutty hobby. Um, and when

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we started Oculus, uh, we we didn't
pay ourselves very much. By the time the

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00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,477
acquisition happened, I had given myself
a raise. We had decided that nobody in

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00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,477
the company was going to make over
$100,000. We called it the 100k club.

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00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,197
So, we're we're paying the CEO $100,000.

264
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Uh, I was getting paid $100,000.
And, uh, to me that that actually felt

265
00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,077
incredible. I was like, "Wow, $100,000.

266
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,477
This is absolutely crazy. I can I can
afford anything." You're like, you know

267
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,877
how many cell phone how many iPhones I'd
have to fix to make $100,000? [laughter]

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Heck of a lot. >> Cuz you
were fixing iPhones and like

269
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,437
scrubbing boats or something.
I read. Is that what you were doing?

270
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,797
>> Yeah. I mean, when I started working on
VR stuff, I was I worked for a few years

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in a boatyard. So, yes. Yeah. Scrubbing
boats, repainting repainting the the the

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the bottom paint, uh, sweeping the

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boatyard, you know, that that that type

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of stuff. Um, so so so to me, the money

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00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,597
was not was not a huge motivating factor.
Also because maybe maybe too

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00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:39,357
optimistically I believed Oculus
was going to be worth tens of billions or

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00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:41,517
hundreds of billions of dollars. So it

278
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,957
really wasn't the the I contrary to what

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00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:49,277
I said before, but it wasn't the money
that was motivating me to make the sale.

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00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,357
The it was the pitch. Hey, we're going
to get you billions of dollars right

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00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,957
now. like not not the not
the compensation for the for the for the

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00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,237
acquisition, but we're going to give
you your your organization billions of

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00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,917
dollars a year to go out and make
virtual reality actually happen. And

284
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,837
that's what you're going to need
to compete with Google, to compete with

285
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,157
Sony, to compete with Microsoft.
All of which have seen what you're doing,

286
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,117
bought in, like they've drunk your
Kool-Aid, but they're going to try to

287
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,477
kill you over it. Uh that that was kind
of the situation we were in. And

288
00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,717
Facebook was one of the very few
companies that had a strong incentive to

289
00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:26,477
make virtual reality and immersive
computing at large to come about as

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00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,317
quickly as possible because unlike
Google, unlike Microsoft, they did not

291
00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:34,157
benefit from the status quo in the
hardware space. You know, if we kept

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00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,197
using mobile phones and normal computers

293
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,597
for, you know, the next 20, 30 years,
Google and Microsoft are going to do

294
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,517
just fine. Like they're already
the winners in that paradigm. If you can

295
00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,997
shake everything up and force a reset

296
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:50,557
with immersive computing, AR, VR, MR,

297
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,437
whatever you want to call it, uh it
could be that Microsoft is one of the

298
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,197
top players and it could be that Apple
and Google are are some of the top

299
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,797
players, but it's unlikely that all
of them are going to remain the dominant

300
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,437
players. And that's an opening for a
company like Facebook to come in. And

301
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,597
even if they're not first place, forcing
the reset puts them in second or third

302
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,237
place instead of being totally
subservient to the operating system uh

303
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,437
vendors and to the hardware vendors.
So it it was one of those things where

304
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,117
there were other companies that were
interested. None of them actually had a

305
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:25,197
strong incentive to put billions of
dollars into VR on an ongoing basis. And

306
00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,477
I mean you can see Google killed their
VR program. First they killed their PC

307
00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,077
VR team, then they killed their mobile

308
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,717
VR team. Microsoft is winding down their

309
00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,437
internal efforts. I mean, it's a it's
a it's a it's a it's a tough business and

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00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,877
I'm not convinced that Oculus would
still be around if we hadn't had those

311
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,397
resources. >> I'm going
to uh move on from like asking

312
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,877
you these money questions, but I want
to ask one more because I do think it's

313
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,797
fascinating because you went from like

314
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,117
maybe not having a lot to having a lot

315
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,917
and you're also like an oddball which I

316
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,117
like. did when I sold my business, I put

317
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,677
everything into bonds and just Vanguard
total index funds and just did like a

318
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,757
normal 8020 split and then eventually
some real estate and then HubSpot stock

319
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,917
and just normal like basic stuff. What
did you do with your money and what have

320
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,437
you cuz I know you bought like a a marina
I think or you tried to buy it. I

321
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,877
don't know if it went through uh but like
what does like someone like you do

322
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,277
with that amount of uh liquidity?

323
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,717
>> So most of it I did what you're talking
about. I generally don't believe in

324
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,437
trying to beat the market through market
market transactions. I mean, it's one

325
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,397
thing to build like I think you build
wealth by building companies. That's

326
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,757
where you should be focusing your effort,
not trying to be smarter than

327
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,597
all the finance guys who are sitting
around and using every tool at their

328
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,277
disposal to try and game the financial
market. So, actually, yeah, Van,

329
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:43,837
Vanguard Funds, like Vanguard 500, total

330
00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,637
index funds. Um, my my grandpa taught me
a lot about investing and about how you

331
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:49,677
shouldn't try to beat the market.

332
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,957
probably the the my investment
philosophy is informed mostly by John

333
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,917
Bogle's little black book on investing
where he's like look you know keep your

334
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,277
fees low keep your costs low and just go

335
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:03,037
with the market and you know if if the
market goes so poorly that I become poor

336
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:08,157
then United States has bigger problems
than uh than than than the market. Um so

337
00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,797
that was that was that was most what
I did. I bought the marina not as a

338
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,357
financial investment. It was actually
it was one of the only marinas it so this

339
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,757
is getting a little into the weeds
on something probably very few people care

340
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,237
about but just so you know um in

341
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,277
California almost all marinas the water

342
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:27,037
is owned by the state or by the feds and

343
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:29,517
then they do long-term leases like 30 or

344
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:34,077
40 years to operators that are allowed
to operate those marinas and they might

345
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,837
own let's say the parking lot
the operator but they do not own the water

346
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,037
they do not own the docks it's just
a long-term lease and they redo that over

347
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:43,757
there's only a small handful of marinas

348
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:45,917
in the entire state of California where

349
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,877
the underlying land under the water and

350
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,837
the water itself is deed to a private

351
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:56,317
title. And the marina that I bought
was one of those. And uh you know without

352
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,117
getting into without getting into you
know my my my whole seasteading delusion

353
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,797
I think that you're going to end up
needing uh if you want to have transport

354
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,717
fairies that are operating from land out
to international waters. You do not want

355
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,997
to be in a position where the place
you're doing that from is totally

356
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,717
dependent on state government
bureaucrats uh choosing to renew your

357
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,477
lease on a particular on a particular
marina. So that was actually that was

358
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,477
actually a purchase that'll it'll it'll
it'll pay off someday. Uh, you'll see.

359
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,157
You all see. [laughter] >> See,
I bought my house just like I like

360
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,117
the the walk-in closet was nice and I
was like, "Oh, that's a good enough

361
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,397
reason for me. I didn't have to like,
you know, go into international waters

362
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,597
uh to make >> Well, in my case,
I I did buy I mean, I

363
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:41,037
did I did a few things like as soon
as I had money, I immediately started

364
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:43,757
learning to fly helicopters for real
because I'd always wanted to be a

365
00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,277
helicopter pilot ever since being
a little kid. So, like it was like it was

366
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,437
like 2 weeks after the wire completed,
I was I was flying helicopters. So, that

367
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,917
was really cool. Um, I bought a 69

368
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,477
Mustang convertible. That was really cool.
And, uh, I bought a first

369
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,877
generation Tesla Model S. That was cool.

370
00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:03,757
And then I bought a house for my parents.
You know, it's like the the

371
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,597
it's like the basketball player contract
move. You know, you you get the money,

372
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,357
you buy the you buy the house for for
your parents. And then I bought a house

373
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,197
for myself that was close to my grandpa

374
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,797
actually. Uh, and unfortunately, we then
ended up having to move up to Silicon

375
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,277
Valley because of the acquisition.
And then he passed away while I was up

376
00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:25,197
there. So, one one of my one of my
regrets, but I'm still in that house.

377
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,317
>> Wow. Uh, okay. That's amazing. And, um,
one other thing I had seen was that you

378
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,157
I don't know if this is even a real
thing or it's like some Twitter fake,

379
00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,157
you know, fake photo or whatever.
Did you buy Bitcoin in 2013?

380
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:39,917
>> No. No. I bought Bitcoin much earlier

381
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,597
than that. I was a very 20 2013 is when

382
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,397
I was on I I was in the Forbes 30 under

383
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,677
30 and they asked everyone on it for a

384
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,517
quote for the print edition and it
was the theme was what is your advice to

385
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,077
other young founders and my quote was

386
00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,637
buy more Bitcoin. Um and but I I'm I've
actually been involved in Bitcoin since

387
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,797
before there were any exchanges.
I like I I was a true OG on the

388
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,117
bitcointtalk.org forums. There were
no exchanges. you could only do direct

389
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:13,197
transactions for goods. I actually
sold a banner ad on my game console

390
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,517
modification forum. It was a oneweek
banner ad on this forum with almost no

391
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,837
traffic and I sold it for 400 Bitcoin.

392
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:21,917
Uh and then I ended up uh I ended up

393
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,677
buying someone's uh Samsung Galaxy

394
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,597
Vibrant, which was the T-Mobile variant

395
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:31,197
of the first Galaxy phone, uh for 800

396
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,597
Bitcoin, I believe, uh which at the time
was, you know, well well under a dollar

397
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,877
per bitcoin. Right. >> So I'
I've actually been in 16 million

398
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,717
very early days. >> 16.
Oh my god. How do you how So like

399
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:47,197
all right, you we had Biology, you know,
Biology uh on the pod and like he was

400
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,757
one of these guys where he would like
give an analogy. He was like, "Oh, you

401
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,597
know, Bitcoin is kind of like the Battle
of Tames." And I'm like, "Bro, I you

402
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,117
can't you I need an analogy for your
analogy. Like I can't tell you about the

403
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,557
Battle of Tames in World War II. Like I
can't have that conversation with you."

404
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,357
And you're a little bit like that where
you're talking about like uh you just

405
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,277
like threw in a few lines like oh this
gaming forum I have when I was like well

406
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,317
I could go down that path but and then
you're talking about like this boat

407
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,837
marina thing and I'm like that that's
a whole conversation like how on earth you

408
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:20,397
discovered that and then I'm sure you
have strong opinion you just have a very

409
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:21,917
and then now obviously you're doing

410
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:28,120
government stuff then you've done
uh and you know a bunch about polit

411
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,597
becoming so wellversed and also so
opinionated on such a broad set of

412
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,797
topics >> because you
have to most of the time

413
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,317
like the the best things that I've done
that I have done in my career have not

414
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,197
been going super super deep on one

415
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,037
vertical and then finding the really

416
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:47,597
really hard gains that are at the end of

417
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,237
a long fight that everyone's made like

418
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,717
an example here would be uh with just

419
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:57,277
like optics technology most people are
fighting way at the end of the spectrum

420
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:00,557
where they're trying to like oh we're
using new cutting edge materials that

421
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,597
increase the ability to control light
more precisely by 2% and you we're

422
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,797
trying to figure out the physics of how
we can manufacture these polymers. Most

423
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,157
of my best ideas have not come from that.
They've been from knowing things

424
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,877
in totally different fields that have
nothing to do with the field or at least

425
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,157
people don't think they do and then
pulling ideas from those fields and

426
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,677
applying them in a new way. like
the the the really key thing that made the

427
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:25,997
Oculus Rift work as just one example.

428
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,317
Rather than focusing on trying to make
these optical stacks that cost thousands

429
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,757
of dollars and weighed a bunch
and that was really what was making these

430
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,357
headsets uh weigh many pounds and cost
tens of thousands of dollars was the

431
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,037
high-end optical stack that was able
to project images on your retina with

432
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:43,677
minimal distortion. But you needed,
you know, a bunch of lenses. They're all

433
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,037
very, very expensive, very high precision.
What I did is figure out that

434
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,397
you could just render a distorted image.

435
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,237
basically render your image, distort it

436
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,437
on the graphics card uh in the inverse
way that the lens distorted it. And then

437
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,717
basically you would render an image that
looks terrible on the screen, but after

438
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,397
viewing it through the lens that I had,
which was optimized for high field of

439
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,157
view, low weight, low cost, but not
optimized to have low distortion, low

440
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,317
chromatic aberration or geometric
aberration, uh it would come out looking

441
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,237
looking perfect. And like that that's
something where an optical engineer,

442
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,437
someone who's working on just optics,
would not would not think of that. uh

443
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:23,757
you know that's very much like a a a
a software idea but the software people

444
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:28,557
are also not necessarily thinking
about how they could obsoles expenses

445
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,317
expensive pieces of optics and of course
there are people who do that do that I

446
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,957
think that some of the best
entrepreneurs are people who have

447
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:40,157
understanding that is sufficient uh
in enough areas to pull from one area and

448
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,757
solve the biggest problems of another.

449
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:46,077
So I I mean I I make it a priority
you asked how do I do it you make it a

450
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,557
priority to know a little about a lot.

451
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,837
So, uh, two questions. One, just go back
to the Bitcoin thing for a second. What

452
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,037
how did you get into like why were you
on the Bitcoin talk forums or why did

453
00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,117
you see it even before, you know,
almost anybody? Uh, so what were you doing

454
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,837
there and why did it catch your eye?
Um, and then, you know, today, 10 years

455
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,117
later, there's a whole bunch of people
that are disillusioned by it. They say,

456
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,557
"Oh, it's all this time's gone by. 10
years didn't work out." Other people are

457
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,277
more bullish than ever. You know, where
do you stand now? So, what caught your

458
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:16,797
eye, and then where do you stand now?

459
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:18,797
So, I mean, I I think I got into Bitcoin

460
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,237
it would have been mid mid to late 2010.

461
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:27,037
Um, and and I I I I was really
fascinated because I I mean, look, I'm a

462
00:26:27,120 --> 00:26:30,717
guy who was into virtual reality and
the metaverse. This is just adjacent to

463
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,597
that. It's another super cool, you know,

464
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:35,997
cy cyberpunk concept. the idea of, you

465
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,797
know, a untraceable internet currency

466
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,357
that is based on only the consensus of all
of the cyber punks who are using it,

467
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,917
cryptographically verified and secured
with no nation state controlling it or

468
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,597
issuing it or diluting it
or manipulating like like what what a cool

469
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,917
thing when you're a when you're an anti-
athority teenager who who who loves who

470
00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,317
loves cyberpunk science fiction. Um,
and so that that it was like I bought into

471
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,717
the the very original cool vision, not

472
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:07,357
the oh, this is going to be huge for
everybody one, but like this is this is

473
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:09,597
this is cyberpunk incarnate. I have to

474
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,717
be a part of this. Um, and when I
started, uh, like my initial thinking

475
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,077
was not that it was a good store of value.
That was that's actually been I

476
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,957
think the most contentious thing about
crypto is after it started skyrock I I

477
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:24,717
didn't buy it because I was speculating.

478
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,237
Nobody was even thinking about that back
then. It's it's crazy to me to watch all

479
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,237
these new crypto kids get in. And it
seems like it's all about just having

480
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,677
having coins, pumping the value, dumping
them. It's really just, you know, these

481
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,037
this financial markets play that I've
never believed in because I always

482
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:42,717
believe in, you know, investing
in the whole market. Um, but to me, it was

483
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,517
always value as a as a means of moving
wealth around. It's not as a store for

484
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,837
years or decades. It's a way that you
can move wealth around uh without any

485
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,837
without being beholdened to any any
centralized authority or centralized

486
00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,237
power. And I think today like even
for all the issues Bitcoin has and people

487
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,597
you know putting it down because of it
crashing. Well, first of all, every time

488
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:08,077
there's a Bitcoin crash, it's like oh no,
it's crashed to only 10x what it was

489
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,957
two years ago. Every single time.
Every crash is like that. Um but more

490
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,957
importantly, it's still a good way to

491
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,237
move value around. And uh that said, my

492
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,637
prediction in 2013 was that Bitcoin will
go to about $100,000 and then stabilize.

493
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,397
I'm sticking with it. I I think I think
it'll get there. I'm I'm not I'm not

494
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,557
sure that it in particular has the has
the appropriate utility to reach a

495
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,357
higher store of value. >> And Wow.
Okay. Amazing. And then did you uh

496
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,917
>> Oh, by the way, I have and I have
to throw out there I'm one of those guys

497
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,587
who lost a bunch of coins in the Mount
Gaus hack. Oh, man. I got goued good.

498
00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:45,597
[laughter] Um, and it was it was one
of those things where there was no like

499
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,117
looking back everyone's like, "Oh my god,
I can't believe that you know you

500
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,277
would have and I had most of my coins in

501
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:56,397
in my own wallet. Uh, but I had
a significant amount on on Gaus because

502
00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:01,117
people were transferring coins to my
Gaus to my Gox account." And uh, now

503
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,477
everyone's like, "Oh my god, of course
you would never keep your coins in an

504
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,997
exchange." But like I was 16 years old

505
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,837
and like you know there was there
was no there was no like idiots guide to

506
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,437
Bitcoin back then. It was it was the type
of thing you only used if you were

507
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,837
a crazy a crazy internet nutter.

508
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,077
>> And so you mentioned forums and I'm
a big forums guy. Like I still I remember

509
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,317
you know BBS I wasn't like before

510
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,277
whatever was before BBS that's not
me but I've been on forums and I love

511
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,597
forums and you talked about >> Amen.

512
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,837
>> the Bitcoin talk forums.
I went and read

513
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,917
a bunch of your early posts on the what
was the name of the like >> odd retro?

514
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,037
>> No, no, no.
The the headset one the headmounted 3D.

515
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,557
>> Yeah, exactly. Like your old your old
post there. I went and like stalked him

516
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,837
just to be like cuz I like to see
the origin. I'm like a like what are the

517
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,597
like archaeologists for like the internet?
I like to go find the original

518
00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,717
>> And so um you know I saw you posting
there and you're like hey I'm trying to

519
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,397
build this thing. I'm thinking about
doing this. You did a bunch of like kind

520
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,397
of really cool crowdsource stuff.
I think you even like asked Reddit like,

521
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,877
you know, should I buy should we buy
Vive or something [laughter] like that.

522
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,557
You did a bunch of cool stuff on forums
and I thought about that and some of the

523
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,757
like I when I learned poker
I learned it through forums.

524
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,637
>> Yep. >> If you think
about today like if who's

525
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,637
the the 16-year-old version of you today,
what forums do you think they're

526
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:20,317
hanging out in? What's the thing?

527
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,797
Because when you were doing this, this
is 15 years ago. Like VR is still early

528
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,237
and you were early early early.
Same thing with Bitcoin. You were early

529
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,517
early. And so what do you think are the
interesting forums today that people are

530
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,557
hanging out in that you think will
play out over the next decade or so?

531
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,557
>> And and also what are what are what are
some of your favorite pockets of the web

532
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,117
and and forums that you're hanging out in?

533
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,357
>> I mean much to my chigrin I like I
love forums too. I think they are more or

534
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,677
less the pinnacle of asynchronous
communication. Like if you are doing

535
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,157
collaborative pro all of the incentives
are correct like so so I like I I ran a

536
00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:59,437
forum the mod retro forums. It was a
forum for people who modified vintage

537
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,277
game consoles in particular with a
focus on turning them into handheld

538
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,837
self-contained units. So, cutting apart
Nintendo 64s and Super Nintendos and

539
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,037
PlayStations and then replacing like
the power electronics with modern power

540
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,317
electronics, running them off
of the latest lithium battery technology,

541
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:18,237
although it was Niad back when back when
I started started, you know, working on

542
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,397
portables. uh you know putting in LCD
screens that were designed for portable

543
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,157
DVD players and the like and building

544
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:27,197
these self-contained units and uh it

545
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,597
forums are interesting because your your

546
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,397
currency is is attention but you can
only get attention by getting people to

547
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,437
come in and you know respond and engage
with you and so there's a strong

548
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,117
incentive to update people on what
you're doing to to to write really

549
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,037
interesting things and to you know
get people regularly coming back and

550
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,757
engaging with your stuff. I mean that
that's the dopamine high, right? it's

551
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,757
other people care about what I'm doing.

552
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,957
Today, it's been so algorith, you know,

553
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,277
algorithmically driven that you don't

554
00:31:55,360 --> 00:32:00,157
have the same incentives in terms
of long-term sustained engagement and uh,

555
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,917
you know, collaborating with people.

556
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,597
There's a lot more incentive to do

557
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,797
things on your own, do one big push in a

558
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,717
form that will cause ordinary people
who are not necessarily technically

559
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:15,037
competent to, you know, watch it for at
least 3 minutes so that it's seen as you

560
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,197
watching long enough. I like I think
the pockets, which is what you asked, like

561
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,317
there's great pockets on YouTube,
there's great pockets on Reddit, there's

562
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,997
actually a lot of private Facebook
groups. Uh so like one I like I'm a

563
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,117
member of a of a night vision group
where people build their own night

564
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,757
vision uh night vision goggles and uh
it's got a couple thousand people, but

565
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,397
it's it's a private group and very very
much not virally driven. Uh you know,

566
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,997
it's not like the Tik Tok tick tock
techno heads. It's not like the YouTube

567
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,837
techno heads, [clears throat] but man,
I I really miss forums. You know, Mod

568
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,877
Retro, we had a core group of a few
thousand active members that were that

569
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,237
were doing stuff in the heyday.
And we were doing a few a few million page

570
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,957
views a month. Uh, and you would you

571
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,397
never see those ratios these days,
you know, of of of engagers to to to

572
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,317
watchers. >> One thing
that um that uh I thought was

573
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,317
actually really interesting, I don't know.

574
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,797
>> Okay, wait, I have to I have I have to
interrupt. I have to interrupt. One last

575
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,757
thing I forgot. Um, actually a huge

576
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,477
fraction of the people that I hired for

577
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:19,997
Oculus in the early days were volunteer
moderators on the mod retro forums. Like

578
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,477
people always, you know, they hire
their network, right? They hire the people

579
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,397
that they know that [clears throat]
they can trust and that they know are

580
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,557
competent. And that was my network when
I was a teenager. It was other it was

581
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,957
other loser gamer teenagers on the
internet. And so we like that that like

582
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,797
we some of our lead electrical people,
our lead hardware people, our lead

583
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,077
mechatronics people uh were all people
who had been moderators on Mod Retro. In

584
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,117
fact, the first person I hired
for Oculus was was one of the other

585
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,517
moderators. And I I actually sent him
a message said, "Hey, what are you doing?

586
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,557
Uh what are you doing? What are you
doing this fall?" And he said, "Oh, I'm

587
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,837
I'm starting starting college." I said,
"No, you're not. You're going to come

588
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,557
work for me." And I literally I like I I

589
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:00,237
told him that on a Friday and I

590
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,197
literally drove out in my minivan to

591
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,597
pick him up from his mom's house on

592
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,837
Monday and he had all his stuff in like

593
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:10,237
four boxes and I picked him up. We got

594
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,877
in my van and we drove to the condemned
motel that I was living in. I mean it

595
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,717
was it it was it was wild. I mean that
and that that was that was my network.

596
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,917
So it's it's always funny when people
are like oh you know your network is

597
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,837
your net worth. You know, look, you
we're got all the Stanford kids, you got

598
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,837
the Ivy kids, and we were just a bunch
of internet losers, and we did better

599
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,277
than any of them. >> You're like,
um, I'm hiring HMD alumni.

600
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,957
They're like, oh, is that Harvard Medical?
No, no, no. Headmounted display

601
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,957
forum alumni. [laughter]

602
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,717
>> Y, that was it
was actually the guy that

603
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,357
I was hiring, his name's Chris Dykus,
and he had never built a headmounted

604
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,677
display, but he was he was very
accomplished on the portableizing scene.

605
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,637
like a lot of [laughter] handheld
vintage game consoles and I I knew he

606
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:58,957
was very competent. I knew exact like
you you talk about a job interview where

607
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,077
you meet someone for you know whatever
they're you know maybe an hour or

608
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,757
something but I had been seeing this
guy's work published on the forum over

609
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,877
the course of years and so I knew he had
I I knew he had skills and I knew he had

610
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,437
work. >> That's exactly
we me and Sean have hired

611
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,237
so many people on Twitter and I tell
people all the time like I want to get a

612
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,917
job. I'm like, man, if you just like
you need to post your thoughts so people

613
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,157
understand your texture and your
tastes and your character, like is

614
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:28,157
significantly better doing it there and
then just DMing someone and then they're

615
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,557
just going to click your profile like,
"Oh, this person is tweeting all this

616
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,397
like interesting insight that aligns with
>> Well, that and and and that's harder to

617
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,917
fake, too. If you if you have somebody
who has a history of building things for

618
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,357
themselves, of doing things because they
want to, not cuz they're getting paid

619
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:45,117
to, like you can't fake that the way
that you can fake an interview. It's

620
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,637
easy to be like, "Oh, I'm passion about X,
Y, and Z." Well, show me your years

621
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:53,197
of work that you've done for no money,
showing that you really are. And I mean,

622
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,357
we we we still hire a lot of people like
that at Androl. Like, uh we we we have

623
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,957
benefits that are intended to uh lure
people like that. Like, one of our

624
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,357
benefits we have is that we will buy
anyone in the company any tool they want

625
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:09,117
for their personal projects as well
as work projects. And that's the type of

626
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,237
thing where people who don't have
personal projects who just, you know,

627
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,997
they show up to their to their wage
machine and they clock in and they clock

628
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,197
out, they're not attracted by that.
But the types of people who want to create

629
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,517
for the sake of creation, those to those
people, that's a it's a it's a golden

630
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,877
ticket. On that note, we did the same
thing. My co-founder, he's a lot like

631
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,877
you. Like 15 at age 15, started working
at a do during the dot boom. It was

632
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,917
like, you know, had a job and was like,
"What the hell's going on?"

633
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,677
>> And always was just
doing his own thing.

634
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,957
And so he used to buy um like 3D

635
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,717
printers and robotics and we're building
like social apps. It's like we didn't

636
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,117
need any of this stuff. And I was like
what are you doing? Like why are we

637
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,437
doing this? He's like because a I want
it like I want to come to a space and

638
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,077
like when I'm done with work I'm just
going to go downstairs to their lab and

639
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,357
I'm going to build like a drone or I'm
going to like take this Raspberry Pi and

640
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,037
like shove it over here and figure
something else out. And he's like also

641
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:00,717
that's also how we'll get great people.

642
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,997
Like I want to work with other hackers
like that who like to tinker on this

643
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,677
stuff. And he's like he's like he's
like he had had an exit. So he's like you

644
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,597
know doing very well. The last company

645
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,677
went public and so he was like you know

646
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,717
when I was like 16 18 21 like I just

647
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,117
couldn't afford the like the thousand
thing that you would need to have. He's

648
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,717
like I just got lucky that the dude down
the street would let me come over and

649
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,397
play with his thing. And that's like
that was like a a lifecher of a moment.

650
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,037
He's like so I just want to do that
for people. Like I just make it free.

651
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,797
Anybody can come in and anybody can use
this stuff. And he was totally right.

652
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,077
Even though like our CFO was like,
"Hey, we can't justify this." He's like,

653
00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,557
"Don't worry, I'll pay for it all
out of pocket." And it was like,

654
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:40,397
>> and I know and I
know that struggle, you

655
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,757
know, like, and it doesn't even have to be
$1,000. I mean, I remember there were

656
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:47,757
times with the thing I needed, it would
cost like $50. And it was just like it

657
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,277
was it was inconceivable that I could

658
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,157
afford it. I mean, like honestly, Oculus

659
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:57,117
owes more to the iPhone than anything
else. I mean, like, if the iPhone

660
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,797
wouldn't have existed, there wouldn't
have been broken iPhones for me to buy,

661
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,197
unlock, repair, and sell on eBay. Like,

662
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,277
and I cuz I made tens of thousands of

663
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,317
dollars as a teenager on that on that
side hustle. Like, like if if that had

664
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,957
not happened, then Oculus
probably wouldn't exist today.

665
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:18,157
>> That's amazing. I want to um ask you uh
a bit about Androl, but before before we

666
00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:22,877
get to that, what ideas were you
pursuing or uh I bet you if you're like

667
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,397
us, I imagine you have a list of like
things that you're contemplating. What

668
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,557
was what was on that list uh prior
to starting Andre? I know there was like a

669
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,997
prison thing and but what what
else like were you interested in?

670
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,397
>> Well, what was the prison thing?
Start with that one because that that one

671
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,557
sounds interesting. >> Oh,
so there were two things I was

672
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,317
seriously considering and then one thing
that I'm I'm going to do someday. So

673
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,357
seast setting is off the table right now.
It's too long term. But there were

674
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:49,277
two short-term things that I was looking
at uh aside from andal. So the three

675
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,997
choices were fix national security,

676
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,877
solve obesity, or solve incarceration.

677
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,917
Uh and you know, I tried to think about,
you know, what are the ways that I would

678
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,717
tackle these issues? And the way I
solved defense was I wanted to build a

679
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,877
defense product company that upends
the incentives that typically exist in the

680
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:08,877
military-industrial complex. But the

681
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:11,117
prison one was that I wanted to

682
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,077
basically take out the incentives
of the private prison complex that exists

683
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,757
today. Right now, private prison
companies are are growing. There's more

684
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,797
and more people being housed
in privately operated prisons. They're

685
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:24,477
publicly traded. And those companies

686
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,837
have a strong incentive to lobby for and

687
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,437
and perpetuate laws that incarcerate

688
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,997
people for the longest period of time
for the least serious crime. In other

689
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,517
words, they don't want murderers
and terrorists. They want they want

690
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,677
nonviolent drug offenders who will be
in prison for a long time. And when they

691
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,197
get out of prison, they want them
to come back and be a repeat customer.

692
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,517
>> They want good good tenants. They
want good high occupancy good tenants.

693
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,557
>> And and the incentives they've set up
with the government where the government

694
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,517
prepays for these beds. The government
basically says, "Well, we've already

695
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,797
paid for the beds, so if they're not
full, then we're not locking up enough

696
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,477
people." You know, it's a it's a very
bad set of incentives. idea was that I

697
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,637
could start a private prison
company that would run as a nonprofit

698
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:13,517
organization and we would use the tax
advantages of that to out compete

699
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,597
private prison companies and more

700
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:20,760
importantly we would have a business
model that would incentive.

701
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:23,757
So, what I wanted to do was go to the
government and say, "Listen, I'll lock

702
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,517
up your prisoners. Uh, but you don't
get to pay us upfront. In fact, you can't

703
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,237
pay us upfront. You have to pay us after
the person serves their term and then

704
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,397
stays out of prison for 5 years.
Then you're going to pay me." Uh, and the

705
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,157
idea is that now all of a sudden I'm
motivated and, you know, my my whole

706
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:44,397
organization is motivated to get people
through as quickly as possible, release

707
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:48,637
them as quickly as possible, and then
have them stay out of prison and not

708
00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:51,837
return to crime. And I mean that would
have been that would have been a game

709
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,037
changer and it would have been a very
attractive business model to these

710
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,957
governments that are always you know
looking to delay their expenditures. The

711
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,317
biggest problem that I ran into
as I looked into this is it wasn't a

712
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,317
technological problem. It was a lobbying
and marketing and government affairs

713
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,237
problem. And it wasn't at a federal
level where you can basically convince a

714
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:11,837
handful of people and then achieve

715
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:17,437
success. it was going to be this like
this lo local by local thing where you

716
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,237
have a lot of people who depend
on prisons for jobs. You have a lot of

717
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,077
politicians who are very involved in it.

718
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:25,837
It was a and also the deals are not
recompeted very often. This isn't like

719
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,837
enterprise software where people are
always on the lookout for a way to get

720
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,677
an edge or move to a new provider that
could reduce their costs or risk. It's

721
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:38,477
like, oh yeah, we're going to recompete
this deal in 35 years. And so it's it it

722
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,757
would have been this thing where I I
just couldn't have made an impact fast

723
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,357
enough. And so I've been involved with
other people who are making impacts in

724
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,877
other ways. Okay, so that was one.

725
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,757
>> Well, you couldn't just have like
some Silicon Valley guy wearing like tight

726
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,357
jeans and brown shoes like every other
salesperson sitting down like, "Hey, so

727
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,237
we'd like to have a conversation about
your prisoners. We'd like to have your

728
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,277
business like, you know,
give me some of your guys."

729
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:00,957
>> Unfortunately not. Uh yeah. Yeah.

730
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,037
Unfortunately not. And and the thing
is the people who make the decisions uh

731
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,117
would not have benefited from us
succeeding. So in business when you're

732
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,997
And this is a big we can get into
this with Andreal too. One of the biggest

733
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,077
problems with selling to the government
versus uh businesses or private private

734
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,277
individuals with with with private
individuals and businesses, you just

735
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,197
have to convince them that uh it'll be
that it'll be a you know that that that

736
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,237
it'll be a good thing for them and then
they'll buy them. The people who are in

737
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,077
charge of purchasing for government,
they often don't benefit from saving

738
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,397
money or reducing their manpower or any
of this. In many cases, the guy in

739
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:35,997
charge of making the buying decision,

740
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,197
his political power and earning power

741
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:41,917
are directly tied to his ability to keep

742
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,717
costs high and to keep manpower up and
to not allow anything to displace that.

743
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,477
So, that was actually the big problem.
I realized that you it's it's nice to

744
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,517
think you can solve any problem u with
with new ideas through disruption, but

745
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,197
some things are kind of self-reinforcing,
very hard to fix. The

746
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,637
the other thing I was looking at is

747
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:04,397
obesity. Obesity is uh is one of if not

748
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,197
the leading preventable cause of death
in the United States. Uh there's so many

749
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,677
there's so many other health problems
that are the result of of obesity. And

750
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,957
some people say that we need to make
exercise more popular. Some people say

751
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,877
that we need to stop normalizing obesity.
Some people say we need medical

752
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,717
treatment for it or you know we need
to make healthy eating better. I I took a

753
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,797
pretty cynical view of it. I said, "No,

754
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:32,157
obesity is not going away unless you let
American people eat whatever they want,

755
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:35,437
whenever they want, as much as they
want, with no lifestyle changes, no

756
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,957
exercise, and absolutely no effort on

757
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,597
their parts whatsoever." And so within
that constraint, what could you do to to

758
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,917
solve this issue? And uh the the the

759
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,637
result that the the idea came on was uh

760
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:53,117
longchain hydrocarbon based synthetic
foods. So in other words, oil-based

761
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,717
foods. Uh you you guys are familiar with
Impossible Burger, Beyond Burger. Have

762
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,037
you had them? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So,
I mean, it was probably better than

763
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,317
the worst beef burger you've ever had,
right? It it was at least at that level.

764
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,037
It's wor It's better than
the worst one you've ever had.

765
00:44:07,120 --> 00:44:10,637
>> Yeah. It It was a whatever.
I'll eat this.

766
00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:13,757
>> Yeah. Whatever. You'll eat this.
But certainly not up to the level of the

767
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,797
best beef burger you've
ever had. Um >> No.

768
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,237
>> And and so one of the one of the
interesting This is where I was drawing

769
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,117
from outside, you know, in an outside
world. all these people trying to make

770
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,357
fake food, they're all trying to build
fake food out of food. And I said,

771
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,717
"Well, wait, let's think of this from
first principles. If I'm a materials

772
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,197
engineer and I'm trying to solve
the set of problems that a fake burger

773
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,917
manufacturer is trying to solve, you know,
how it feels in your mouth, how it

774
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,277
comes apart in your mouth, how it how
it sears, how it cooks, how it changes

775
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:43,917
texture when it's cooked. If I was a

776
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,157
chemical or material engineer trying to

777
00:44:46,240 --> 00:44:49,117
build, let's say it's not food, just a,

778
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,437
you know, a a paste, a substance with a

779
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,237
certain set of of parameters. What am I

780
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,517
going to use? Is it is it beans? Is it

781
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,837
chickpeas? Is it corn? No, of course

782
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,477
not. I'm going to use oil because man is

783
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,797
a master of oil. We can make it in

784
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,797
anything. Waxes, gels, solids, anything

785
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,837
in between. rubbers, pastes, we can do

786
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:16,317
anything with oil. We can make it into
truly anything with almost any material

787
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,997
properties that we want. And so I said,
well, let's leverage that. Let's

788
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,637
leverage everything we know about making
inert hydrocarbons that are non-toxic

789
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:26,957
and use that to make fake food for

790
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,597
people that tastes and feels like real

791
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:34,317
food, but has zero caloric value that
cannot be absorbed by your body. It just

792
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,317
goes right through you just like fiber.

793
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,077
And the thing is, it's not that crazy.

794
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,877
Taco Bell. >> A diet coke
for Yeah. [laughter] It's a

795
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,717
Yeah, that exists, dude. It's called
White Castle. Uh but I mean, yeah,

796
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:49,197
you're just saying like
the Diet Coke cheeseburger.

797
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,677
>> Yes. Ex Diet Coke
cheeseburger. The Diet

798
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,397
Coke cheese. The Diet You The Diet
Coke dairy products. And so I actually

799
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,557
started making prototypes of this and I
was messing around with uh frying foods

800
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:03,117
in mineral oil uh with with with high

801
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:08,237
flash points because mineral oil also no
calories. Um, I made some paraffin based

802
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,037
cheese. Uh, so it was basically like
paraffin wax based fake cheese product

803
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:14,637
that you could still make grilled cheese

804
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:20,317
sandwiches with and it tasted great but
had almost no calories. Um, it was there

805
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,517
were a few other wild things that came
with. I I also built a device that

806
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,197
injected uh soda syrup through a stream

807
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,277
onto your tongue directly as carbonated
water flowed over it. Because it turns

808
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,437
out you can only detect what it's
a weird perceptual thing. People think of

809
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,117
uh optical illusions as as you know
the the main type of illusion that's out

810
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:42,397
there. But there's also physical
illusions. Like if you if you put

811
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,917
pudding pudding in your mouth, your body
assumes that the full mass of the

812
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,517
pudding is comprised of whatever
is touching your tongue. But if you can

813
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,357
create uh physically structured foods
where the part that's touching your

814
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,077
tongue is different than the bulk of
the rest of the material, your body still

815
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,877
thinks that the entire bulk of it
is whatever is touching your tongue.

816
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,797
Anyway, >> dude, what I
went down this rabbit hole

817
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,877
for a while. What does your
house look like? [laughter]

818
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:08,957
>> Well, I mean,
it it's it's a little more

819
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:13,997
boring now. Um, but at the time, uh,
when when I was acquired by Facebook, I

820
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,797
moved up to the Bay Area and we had
about 10 people living in a 13,000 ft

821
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,877
home that was built in the 30s on 6

822
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,837
acres. And so, we turned the dining room
into a machine shop. We turned uh we we

823
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:30,077
turned the there there was like a like
a ballroom for dancing and we turned that

824
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,637
into an assembly area and and and

825
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:37,197
welding welding room. I mean we we had
a soft goods room in in in the little

826
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,837
sunny area [laughter] >> as someone does
room. I don't even know what that means.

827
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,887
What are soft goods?
>> Oh like um so like >> cream cheese.

828
00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:50,077
[laughter] I mean like the traditional
example when people talk like a soft

829
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:52,317
goods engineer would be like uh like

830
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,597
tennis shoes, bras, um uh you know

831
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,357
things that are incorporating fabrics
and also PL or think you know like a

832
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,757
like a tennis a tennis racket is is is
is an example of soft good engineering

833
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,037
where you've got you know the handle
and the shock absorption all that but like

834
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,397
in our case it was for headmounted
display stuff. Um so like headmounted

835
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,237
display straps the f the fabric
associated with it. Um, we also were,

836
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,437
you know, we're also cosplayers,
so we were also building our building our

837
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,837
anime costumes there. So,
a lot of soft good stuff.

838
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,077
>> You, the more you talk, the more I
realize you uh you do the one thing that

839
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,117
we celebrate the most on this podcast,
cuz they're like people are like, I

840
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,077
don't get it. Like you and Sam, you
do a certain style of entrepreneurship,

841
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:34,237
right? Like for example, I optimize
for just I want it to be me and one other

842
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,557
dude. I don't want any employees.
I don't want to go to an office and I just

843
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,677
want max leverage. And I'm not trying
to be a billionaire. I don't want to raise

844
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,397
money. I want to own the whole thing
and just do it my way on whatever projects

845
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,757
are fun. >> And um
but then sometimes we'll

846
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,917
celebrate like the you and Elon Musk
of the world that are going huge. And

847
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,357
sometimes we celebrate this dude who's
making this Chrome extension. He makes

848
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,397
20K a month and lives in, you know, Bali
and he's having fun. And so people don't

849
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,997
get it. They're like, "What do you like,
which one do you admire?" Like I get it.

850
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,157
TechCrunch admires this thing and VCs
admire this thing, but you guys seem to

851
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:08,477
be across the board. And we're like,
we like people that just define the win

852
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,717
define winning on their terms and then
like actualize it. So like you having a

853
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,557
house with 13 other people that does
that has like you know an assembly room

854
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,317
and a soft goods room and whatever.
It seems like you're living your best life

855
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,597
in that state maybe. >> 100%.
>> Well, and I it's it's it's the weird

856
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,957
thing about what I get to do now like
these these all sound, you know, like

857
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,717
like fun things, but I'm still getting
to do that. And like Androl, we have all

858
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:33,917
kinds of stuff like that going on.

859
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,597
Actually, the the tough thing is the
coolest things that we're doing here, I

860
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,037
can't even necessarily talk about
because the the most successful projects

861
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,237
that are doing the cool going in the
coolest directions are the ones that

862
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:48,477
that we have to keep kind of uh on wraps.
Oh, I have to say on on petroleum

863
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,477
food, just in case anyone's wondering
why I didn't do that. Um, one, I thought

864
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,757
national security would would be
a better use of my time, and that was

865
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:59,277
because I realized tech was that
national security was a technological

866
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,277
problem in addition to being a lobbying
and marketing problem and sales problem.

867
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,837
Um the the problem with petroleum foods

868
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,317
is that it was not sustainable if using

869
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:13,037
new oil as a feed stock. Um it would
just it would consume too much. Uh and

870
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:17,277
the good news is you can recycle
hydrocarbons. But then I mean if you I

871
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,357
don't know if you can see where this
is going, but it means you're going to

872
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,477
literally be like centrifuging

873
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:27,597
oil out of the sewer system and then
reusing it to construct new food. And I

874
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,477
realized like, have you have you seen
all the, you know, media coverage of

875
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,637
pink pink slime at McDonald's?
And that's just like chicken, but it looks

876
00:50:34,720 --> 00:50:38,077
kind of gross. Yeah. [laughter] Do
you think people want to buy food

877
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,477
that's literally remanufactured from
sewage? You know, that that that was

878
00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:45,837
kind of the main problem. I said,
you know what? I'm I'm I'm pretty good at

879
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,397
marketing and sales. I am not good
enough to sell sewer food to people.

880
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,277
>> Yeah. You you you sound >> I
need to figure that out. You sound

881
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,917
like you're a bad guy in Batman if
you're like, "Yeah, he's going through

882
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,877
the sewers and recycling it,
turning it into food." [laughter]

883
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:03,037
>> It's it's like and it's almost too
good of a story, right? Like like I I

884
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:07,117
sometimes I think the media is unfair,
but it's like could you expect them to

885
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,917
not, you know, sensationalize literally

886
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,957
a guy who's who's selling reprocessed
sewage as food. Like it's like they have

887
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,797
to cover it in a sensational way.
And I can't even blame them for it. And I

888
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,237
decided I would rather work in an area

889
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,077
where technological improvement would be

890
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,757
the main way that you would compete.
We didn't need to, you know, do crazy

891
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,357
marketing. You just had to be competent
and be better than all of the other

892
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:36,077
players, which was not
necessarily that high of a bar.

893
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,077
>> I can't find this client info.

894
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:42,317
>> Have you heard of HubSpot? HubSpot is
a CRM [music] platform, so it shares its

895
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,557
data across every application. Every
team can stay aligned. No out of sync

896
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:48,477
spreadsheets or dueling databases.

897
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:53,437
HubSpot grow better. [music] >> Do
you uh you talked about the media for

898
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,517
a second and I when I was doing research
I was like the you know there's this

899
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,837
great Silicon Valley post that's called
like the hands of time of social media

900
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,317
of of media in Silicon Valley. It's like

901
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,957
it it starts at noon and it's like
you're born you know nobody's ever heard

902
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,957
of you. Then at 1:00 you're like emerging.
At three you're like the star.

903
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,237
everybody loves you and it like goes
and then it cycles all the way back to

904
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,477
midnight and it's like you're evil
uh you're ruining society and you like

905
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:24,957
destroy democracy and whatever else and
this happens with every hot company and

906
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:28,397
every hot founder whatever and when I
was looking at your media coverage to do

907
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,277
research it's all like this is the boy

908
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,677
wonder he's 19 years old he's making
virtual reality real he's doing this out

909
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,997
of his garage in his house or whatever
>> and then it turns into like this guy is

910
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,837
like you know the MAGA super evil guy
he's getting fired by Facebook and then

911
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,317
it's like the defense stuff. So, you've
seen kind of both sides of the media

912
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,197
machine. Does that make
you kind of jaded? Like

913
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,157
where do you trust the media today? And
like how do you think about you know the

914
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:56,477
media? >> Well, there's
an interesting quote that

915
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,117
people often misuse from the Nolan

916
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,517
Batman movies. Uh

917
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,517
you either die a hero or live see
yourself live long enough to become the

918
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,797
villain. And a lot of people
misunderstand that. They think that it

919
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:15,837
means you start out as a hero and then
eventually descend into into being uh

920
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,717
you know a bad guy. And they look
at Harvey Dent and they that they they

921
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:22,477
think that's the moral. But that's
not what was what what Harvey Dent was

922
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:24,477
saying. Harvey Dent had actually always

923
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,597
been a kind of crooked power seeking

924
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,077
political type. What what what he was

925
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,877
saying is that he had always been the same
person fighting for the same ideals

926
00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:39,677
and that he just lived long enough to see
the world change around him. That so

927
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:43,757
that people started saying that what he
was was a villain. You know, he didn't

928
00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,477
say that you become the villain. You to

929
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,797
see yourself become the villain in the
eyes of everyone else. And I I I feel

930
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,397
like I've definitely been through been
been through that uh been through that a

931
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,477
little bit. I mean, it's worth noting
I'm not inclined to dislike the media

932
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:01,997
naturally. A lot of people assume that
that must be the case. I I don't know if

933
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,277
you know this. I was a journalism major
at Cal State Long Beach. I was actually

934
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,557
the online editor of the of the school
paper, the Daily 49er. Uh so I I by no

935
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,477
mean like I there was a time where I
thought I was going to go into a career

936
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,357
in tech journalism. And so I I never

937
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:21,997
really had had any issues with it. um
as a as you know I thought it was a very a

938
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,917
very honorable thing to do you know
to go out and and be the guy who dig dig

939
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,157
digs and gets the truth and lets people
know what's going on that they otherwise

940
00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:34,877
would not have the ability or the time
to sus out themselves. Uh and then

941
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:37,997
unfortunately I've had quite a few
experiences with the media. It's like do

942
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:39,517
I trust the media? It's like, well, I

943
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,677
mean, I've had like literally dozens of

944
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:45,357
major outlets post literally fabricated

945
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,677
quotes from me. Uh, lit, you know,
literally like things that never

946
00:54:49,760 --> 00:54:53,597
happened. Uh, they said, you know,
we did all these terrible things that just

947
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,197
never even happened and then refused
to correct them for years on end. So, it's

948
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,237
one of those people like, "Oh, Palmer,
why do you attack the media?" It's like,

949
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,597
I don't know. Like, there's not any
real way to to get to get around this. I

950
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,597
mean, like, we're not talking about
tiny outlets. The New York Times posted a

951
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,437
quote for me that I literally never said.
And I I told them like, "Hey, you

952
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,117
you said that I said this. I never said
that." They said, "Well, it's it's it's

953
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:18,077
it's more or less what you said.
We don't think the meaning is different."

954
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,437
And I was like, "Yeah, but your your
your ethics guide I know I know what it

955
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:24,237
is. I was taught the New York Times
style guide when I was in journalism

956
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:28,157
school. It doesn't it doesn't say you
get to quote me and paraphrase me and

957
00:55:28,240 --> 00:55:31,357
you think that is it doesn't mean
anything different." And then of course

958
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,760
everyone requir

959
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,997
means what you think it means. You know,
you're like th those those like you know

960
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,877
those little signs in the paper that say
it's a quote that that means something

961
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:44,957
different than what than
what you guys are saying.

962
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,317
>> Well, I explained to them I said I said
your quote from me is literally missing

963
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,237
six of the words that I said, but you
have it in quotes with a period. And I I

964
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:55,837
never said that. Um, and it was actually
and it there was no period because it

965
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,917
was part of a longer run-on argument I
was making that that did not even have a

966
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,397
period there. And they're like, "Oh,
well, we don't think it really changes

967
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,037
the meaning." So, just I you know,
without belavoring the point, uh, you I

968
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,877
think you you can't you can't trust the

969
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:12,317
media to to uh you can't trust the media

970
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,997
to do the right thing. And if you do,

971
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:19,517
you're probably going to get burned at
some point. It worked for me for a while

972
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:22,317
uh until it didn't. What does um what

973
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,757
does Andre do and what made you realize

974
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:29,917
that the the the the approach to solve
that problem was the approach that you

975
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,797
picked because that seems like such
a grand I mean I understand the high level

976
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:38,077
of what you do but it's so grand that I
think well like Oculus was fairly grand

977
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,957
but I kind of get that you can kind of
tinker in your garage and come up with a

978
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,117
nifty product and whatever and like
no one's gonna like get hurt really and

979
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:50,957
it's like a pretty simple process
hard but simple. Andrew. I'm like, "Oh

980
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,117
my god, I don't even know where to start."
I mean, I get I've seen the

981
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,757
movie with Jonah Hill where he's like
a war dog or whatever it's called where he

982
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:59,437
like buys and sell weapons and I'm like,
"Is that what Andrew does?" And Yeah.

983
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:01,197
Yeah. I'm like, "Is that what Andrew

984
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,757
does?" And how on earth does even a rich

985
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:08,557
guy who's 28 in his apartment or his big
house come up with this? This is crazy.

986
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:12,557
Like, who do you call? You call like,
"Hey, uh, hey Brock, uh, I was thinking,

987
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:15,357
you know, maybe we could try this like
MVP." You know what I mean? I don't even

988
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,917
know how you start that. I mean it it's
tough and it is such a big problem and

989
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,077
so unapproachable that very few people

990
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:27,197
do approach it. I mean like very big
picture and is trying to build the next

991
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:31,197
major defense prime meaning we we're
the prime contract holder. We're not a

992
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,597
subcontractor to existing primes like

993
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:35,517
Loheed Martin or Rathon or North of

994
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:39,997
Grumman or Boeing. And uh you know I 80%

995
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:44,397
of the US defense budget goes to just
a handful of companies. These big primes

996
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,557
that just completely dominate
the industry and they get paid on what's

997
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,917
called a cost plus basis. They get
paid for their time, materials, fixed

998
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,717
percentage of profit on top, which
means that they're incentivized to move

999
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:57,997
slowly. They actually make more money
when they come up with more expensive

1000
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,917
systems, more money when they sell more
of something, more money when it even

1001
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,517
breaks more often because they get
to sell more parts for it. I mean, it's

1002
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,637
it's a it's a really bizarre contracting
system that we created in World War II

1003
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:14,237
to basically take over the US war
machine or sorry, the US industrial

1004
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:17,437
machine, turn it into a war machine
because companies like Ford were saying,

1005
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,197
"Hey, I I can't even quote you what
it's going to cost to make a tank because

1006
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:25,437
I've never really, you know, this has
never really been my business." And uh

1007
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,237
they said, "Okay, fine. We'll pay you
whatever it costs and a fixed percentage

1008
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,517
of profit on top to make sure that you
are able to keep running your business."

1009
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:34,717
And then unfortunately we just kept
doing that uh even though we were no

1010
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:39,677
longer in an existential war mode. And so
in the last 35 years since the end of

1011
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:43,197
the cold war the government had
completely lost its ability to grow

1012
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,797
small defense companies into large
defense companies. I mean you know

1013
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:51,917
Samuel Colt went from working in his
tiny garage workshop to arming the

1014
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:55,277
entire western world. That's that's
that's what we used to be able to do.

1015
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:59,597
You could start small and get big if you
had the best stuff. But in the last 35

1016
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,437
years, there were only two unicorns
before Anderil in the defense space. And

1017
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,077
35 years not just being chosen
arbitrarily. It's basically since the

1018
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:09,997
end of the cold war. During the cold war,
we did turn small defense companies

1019
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,557
into into major players. But since then,
it's Palunteer, SpaceX, both founded by

1020
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,557
billionaires, and then nobody else.

1021
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:21,357
That's it. And so it it's so hard to get
in. You know, founders say, "I have no

1022
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:23,837
idea how I could possibly start
a defense company." So they don't start a

1023
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,957
defense company. Uh venture capitalists
say, "I'm not going to invest in a

1024
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:31,117
defense company. There's no examples
of success in the last 35 years less the

1025
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:34,237
billionaires uh who can do anything. I'm
sure they could have done whatever they

1026
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,037
wanted with their billions. Uh and so
the VCs don't want to invest in it. And

1027
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:42,557
this is and then smart employees don't
want to go work at defense startups

1028
00:59:42,640 --> 00:59:45,677
because they look at the landscape. They
say look this might be a cool lifestyle

1029
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,797
business but it's never going to grow
to a scale where the equity that I'm given

1030
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,757
is a significant is a significant way to

1031
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,397
generate money for me and my family. And

1032
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,197
so, uh, I I I said, "Man, you if that's

1033
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:01,437
really what it takes, uh, it really,
you know, if it really does take lots and

1034
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,957
lots of money and lots and lots
of influence and really smart people, then

1035
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,637
I'm in a position to start a company
that very few people are. Very few

1036
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:12,797
founders have experience running
a multi-billion dollar company with

1037
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:14,717
thousands of employees man mass

1038
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:16,637
manufacturing millions of pieces of

1039
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,717
hardware uh and h are and are willing to

1040
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,317
give up the adoration of their peers
in the media. Like that was actually

1041
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:28,397
probably the most important factor. If
I would have just left Oculus by retiring

1042
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,757
on my own, it would have been much
harder for me to go into an area like

1043
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,997
building weapons for the US and our
allies because so many people got so

1044
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,957
angry about it. you know, friends
that I had who didn't want to talk to me

1045
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:43,037
anymore, investors who said that not
only would we never make money, but that

1046
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,797
what we were doing was morally
reprehensible and wrong. And you know, I

1047
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:51,037
was trying to explain to people, listen,
we live in a world where our major

1048
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:55,837
strategic adversaries are rapidly
building advanced technology that has no

1049
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:57,677
peer here in the United States war

1050
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:02,717
machine. uh the the major conflict is

1051
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,677
imminent in Asia, in Europe, with a lot

1052
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:10,477
of our strong allies and partners and we
need to be ready not just to win those

1053
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,837
wars. The goal is not to win a war,
it's to deter a war from happening in the

1054
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:17,677
first place. And if we don't have the
tools we need to deter them, then war is

1055
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:21,117
inevitable. And I you guys probably
remember how things were, you know, I

1056
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:23,517
guess back you five or six years ago. It

1057
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:26,317
was very very popular to believe that

1058
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,797
we're at the end of history and that
peace is too profitable for anyone to

1059
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:34,157
rock the boat and that that was the thing
that would keep everybody in line.

1060
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:38,157
I think that Russia invading Ukraine
finally woke up a lot of people to

1061
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,797
realize that history is not over. uh

1062
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:43,997
land borders are not fixed and uh like I

1063
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,797
mean look how wild it is that Europe is

1064
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:49,277
still buying billions of dollars of

1065
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,997
goods from Russia even as Russia
literally invades Europe. I mean like

1066
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:58,077
that's that's how screw that's how
screwed they are. Um and I think people

1067
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,757
people did not see this a few years ago
and I felt I felt a little bit like a

1068
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,677
crazy person. Um and if I'll I'll ramble
on one more thing. You've probably heard

1069
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,277
me say this before elsewhere, but it
could be that you know your your your

1070
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,597
viewers haven't has had heard me say this.
I'll say it again. You know, we're

1071
01:02:13,680 --> 01:02:15,997
living in the first time in US history

1072
01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:21,117
where the most innovative, powerful,
and large technology companies in our

1073
01:02:21,200 --> 01:02:24,317
country refused to work with the military.
That's never been the case.

1074
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,597
Our most powerful companies have
always understood that they had a

1075
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:31,437
responsibility to aid with national
security. But now, but I mean whether

1076
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:33,037
you're talking about Google or in

1077
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,677
particular Apple. I mean Apple's got 95%

1078
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:40,397
of their manufacturing in China,
uh they agreed to invest they've invested

1079
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:43,597
hundreds of billions of dollars
in manufacturing capacity there. They've

1080
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:48,477
agreed to invest a further $275 billion
in Chinese manufacturing in exchange for

1081
01:02:48,560 --> 01:02:51,757
being allowed to operate as an
independent company in China instead of

1082
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:54,797
being nationalized into a joint venture

1083
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,037
majority owned by China. I mean they

1084
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:59,357
they they're in a position where if they

1085
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:01,837
do anything to upset the Chinese

1086
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:06,557
government, the one person in China
could sign one piece of paper that would

1087
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,797
wipe out the most powerful company in

1088
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:11,437
the entire world instantly. A $2

1089
01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:13,757
trillion company like they they are not

1090
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:18,477
masters of their own destiny by by any
means. And I I I guess I want to stress

1091
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:22,157
this because it's never been the case
in history. And that had me terrified. You

1092
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:25,677
know, I I 5 years ago, I could see
we were on the precipice of war with

1093
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,797
advanced powers who had fully suppressed

1094
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:33,597
our most advanced technology companies
through economic tools. And you know, if

1095
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:37,517
I I I don't understand why more people
were not scared by that, but I felt like

1096
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,277
I couldn't do anything that was more
important than starting Anderal to start

1097
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,237
help solving that problem. And thanks
for letting me ramble for so long on

1098
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,957
that. I know that was a long ramble,
but I've I've got a lot of lot of emotion

1099
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:50,877
all built up inside of on it. No, I mean
that's why we wanted you on is to hear

1100
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:52,797
what you're doing and why. And you also

1101
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,437
flipped like the common denominator with

1102
01:03:55,520 --> 01:04:00,797
either the prison thing, the food, the
the oil based foods or this is that you

1103
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,317
kind of looked at it from another angle
and also maybe flipped the incentives

1104
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,837
the cost structure. So what you were
saying was you let's say with the prison

1105
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:10,477
thing you wanted to be incentivized to
keep people out of prison rather than in

1106
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:11,677
prison for as long as possible.

1107
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:12,957
>> Exactly. >> Sounds like for Andrew.

1108
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:16,477
>> Sounds so simple, right?
>> Yeah. It sounds like for you,

1109
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:18,877
>> it is simple, but it's not easy.

1110
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,637
>> No. >> Yeah. And well,
and what it sounds like

1111
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:22,237
what you ran into there was the

1112
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:26,477
incentive uh for the local official who,

1113
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,397
you know, um who decides on these things
may have been to have a bigger budget

1114
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:32,957
and not a smaller budget. And so,
you know, your incentives were sort of

1115
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,517
clashing, right? Whereas with >>
and he does and he doesn't have to say,

1116
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,237
"I'm not buying your thing because
my incentives are wrong." You could be

1117
01:04:38,320 --> 01:04:41,677
like, "Oh, we've done an assessment
of all the vendors and this one really has

1118
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,877
a lot more experience and we don't
want to take a risk on a new vendor." It

1119
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,917
could literally be that simple.
He people like, "Oh, but how would they

1120
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,877
justify the business model?" You know,
it would be so much better. It's like he

1121
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,637
doesn't have to. Like you he could
just be like, "Nope. I I too much risk."

1122
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,437
>> And so what's the business model
with Andrew? Because you're not doing cost

1123
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,517
plus, you're doing something else.
And um so that's

1124
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:05,117
>> we're we're a defense product company.
I mean, we we work the way it's not even a

1125
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:09,037
revolutionary business model. It's
the way every tech company works. You use

1126
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,677
your own money, you build a product,
you make it work, and then you go to

1127
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,357
customers and you sell it to them. And
that that is a very hard thing to do in

1128
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,277
the defense space. But we've basically
bet that we will be able to pick the

1129
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:24,317
right things to work on. That will
be able to find the right partners in

1130
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:27,837
government to help tell us what we
should be investing our own money in

1131
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,837
ahead of time. And that in the end when
it works, that we'll be able to sell

1132
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,637
most of the time to the government.
Now, there will be times where we get

1133
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,997
screwed. There will be times where we
don't build things that work and uh you

1134
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:42,557
know and it's our own money that we
burned instead of taxpayers. But on the

1135
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:45,757
whole, we're very incentivized to be
efficient. We don't want things to drag

1136
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,117
out. We don't want to drag it out to be
a 10-year R&D program on a cost plus

1137
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:52,717
basis when when we can get it done in 6
months with some really, really smart

1138
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,397
ideas. And so we've got the right
incentives. And we're we're basically

1139
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,237
out there trying to convince
the Department of Defense and politicians

1140
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:03,997
that this is the way that all defense
companies should be working. Everyone

1141
01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:07,677
should live in fear looking over their
own own shoulder knowing that if they

1142
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,797
fail that they're the ones who are
going to get screwed, not taxpayers.

1143
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:15,757
>> So when you get a contract that's
like we got a $900 million contract that's

1144
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,797
after you've already produced
the product and they're basically just

1145
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:20,317
agreeing to buy the goods at that point.

1146
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:22,317
Is that what that means in your case?

1147
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,997
>> Yeah, I mean we recently just won
a billion dollar contract with SOCOM

1148
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:30,557
special operations uh command uh to do
all of their counter drone work. So

1149
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,557
basically protecting like building the
hardware and software that is defending

1150
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:38,077
them from uh from drones that are
attacking their installations and

1151
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:42,637
positions. And we started working on
our counter drone system using all of our

1152
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:46,477
own money years and years ago before we
had any customer. We just we we started

1153
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,997
building the hardware and the software,
building our interceptors, building our

1154
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:54,637
jammers. And uh then we it was after
we invested a ton of our own money and

1155
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,837
proved that this was the right way
to solve the problem that we were able to

1156
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,957
go. Oh, and actually there was a full
competition for who they were going to

1157
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:03,917
select for this. And they did basically
a shootoff between all these different

1158
01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:08,877
companies. And some of the companies
that we beat were actually getting paid

1159
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,797
by the government to develop their
systems using government money. But we

1160
01:07:12,880 --> 01:07:15,917
had invested quite a bit more money
and moved much faster. And there were

1161
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:19,517
literally contractors that were
complaining saying, "This isn't fair. We

1162
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,477
have to compete with Anderol and they've
been investing their own money for

1163
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:25,917
years. How could we possibly be expected
to compete when the government's only

1164
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,517
given us, you know, tens of millions
of dollars over the course of the last two

1165
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:33,597
years? And I I'm like, guys, like,
of course, this is how it works. Like, you

1166
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,117
could have won if you had spent your own
money. If you had spent your own money

1167
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:41,277
for 5 years, you probably would be able
to compete with us on an even playing

1168
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:43,997
field, but you can't take no risk and

1169
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:48,557
expect all of the reward. And we spent
a lot less than these companies developing

1170
01:07:48,640 --> 01:07:52,397
much better capabilities because we had
the right incentives. So, you're you're

1171
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:55,917
I I think you're 30 years old, so you're
we're we're all about the same age.

1172
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,717
You're sitting there with a >>
just turned 30 a few weeks ago.

1173
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,997
>> Well, happy birthday. You're
sitting there in a Hawaiian t-shirt with

1174
01:08:02,080 --> 01:08:05,997
a goatee. I You're probably the type of
dude who walks around barefooted all the

1175
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,237
time and you're talking about cosplay
and yet you just said, "We just want a

1176
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:11,517
billion dollar contract from the

1177
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,157
government." How do you work up like the

1178
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:17,677
the hueos, the confidence to think like

1179
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:21,917
I'm going to go in against all these
gray-haired suits and like they're going

1180
01:08:22,000 --> 01:08:24,557
to the government's eventually going
to take me seriously and I'm going to sell

1181
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:28,317
this uh sell this thing. I mean, or do
you have people selling on your behalf?

1182
01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:33,277
But like that that's just a reach for me
to understand. Some people think that I

1183
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:37,037
should that I should dress differently
and try to kind of you know appeal to

1184
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:41,197
the government sensibilities and like
you know I should be dressing in a suit

1185
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:44,637
and I should be very very straight laced
and you know be very very serious all

1186
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:49,197
the time but I think that one of the
most important things that is doing is

1187
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:53,757
not just building technology ourselves
but it's inspiring other companies to

1188
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:56,797
work in defense not just company like
inspiring companies that aren't in

1189
01:08:56,880 --> 01:09:00,557
defense to pivot in defense
and inspiring people to start new defense

1190
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:05,357
companies and if they see me like
becoming a boring guy who's who's, you

1191
01:09:05,440 --> 01:09:08,397
know, has to make himself super lame
to sell to the government, that's not a

1192
01:09:08,480 --> 01:09:11,037
lifestyle that they're going to want
to lead, you know, and so we need to show

1193
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,397
that they can be successful and show
them that it's that it's going to be

1194
01:09:14,480 --> 01:09:17,837
fun. Now, I also want to keep uh wearing
flip-flops and Hawaiian shirts. So,

1195
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:20,957
maybe I'm maybe this is just, you know,
postfacto justification. No, I'm on

1196
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:24,637
board. I I feel like I'd be doing
everyone a disservice if I were to change.

1197
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,757
>> Yeah, I think it's working. Now, you
know, we uh the podcast is all about the

1198
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,277
future. We're always brainstorming
ideas, opportunities. Uh but none of

1199
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,157
that matters if there's not really
a future. If this is about to become World

1200
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,477
War II and there's nukes flying
everywhere. So you're kind of uh a lot

1201
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:42,797
more in the loop than any guest
that we've ever had on this.

1202
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:46,557
What's going to happen here? Is this what
are the odds of like you know this

1203
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:50,157
sort of Ukraine Russia conflict breaking
out into something a lot more serious

1204
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:52,477
and like you know is there going to be a

1205
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:57,357
nuclear weapon you know in our near
future? So I mean it's very hard to

1206
01:09:57,440 --> 01:10:00,797
predict. There's people who are better
at this than me. Like what I always tell

1207
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,557
people is like our role is to build
the tools and then you have to trust in

1208
01:10:04,640 --> 01:10:07,517
democracy to deploy them correctly.
And people like, oh, you know, when would

1209
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:10,237
you stop supplying weapons to Ukraine?

1210
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:13,277
And you know, is there a point where
you'd be too, you know, where you where

1211
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,557
you think that we should where you
would make sure that you're not part of a

1212
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:20,957
nuclear escalation? And I say, listen,
if you believe in democracy at all, then

1213
01:10:21,040 --> 01:10:23,117
you should not want US foreign policy to

1214
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:28,237
be dictated by the everchanging whims
of technology executives. Like what an

1215
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:32,077
extraordinarily dangerous precedent
to set that you you'll build weapons for

1216
01:10:32,160 --> 01:10:34,237
the people you are politically aligned

1217
01:10:34,320 --> 01:10:37,197
with and then you'll suddenly drop it uh

1218
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:41,917
despite the like what it really is is I
will sell to the people that the US

1219
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,997
state department and the US DOD want
me to like if if that that because they

1220
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:50,317
have information that I don't they
have uh intelligence that I do not and I

1221
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:54,237
cannot second guessess that and say oh
you know I I would stop supplying if I

1222
01:10:54,320 --> 01:10:57,197
thought there was this level of of
escalation but you know with that out of

1223
01:10:57,280 --> 01:11:02,157
the way I think that we are going to see
a tactical nuke get used. Uh and and for

1224
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,277
people who are not familiar with the
difference, tactical nuclear weapons are

1225
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:08,157
designed for tactical use as part of a

1226
01:11:08,240 --> 01:11:10,557
battle uh for basically conventional

1227
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,677
warfare tactic. So blowing up uh you

1228
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:16,157
blowing up uh an armor division or

1229
01:11:16,240 --> 01:11:18,237
taking out a wing of bombers or maybe

1230
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:20,717
even destroying an airfield. Strategic

1231
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:24,077
nuclear weapons are used to deter mass

1232
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:28,237
nuclear exchange and to engage in, you

1233
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:32,317
know, strategic level annihilation
of cities and the like. Uh the United

1234
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:36,157
States disassembled all of our tactical
nuclear weapons a long time ago. We

1235
01:11:36,240 --> 01:11:38,397
decided that our warrant doctrine did

1236
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:41,117
not allow for tactical nukes. Nukes are

1237
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:45,837
only something you use at a strategic
level to deter other people from using

1238
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,997
them against you. That is not the case
for Russia. Russia has tactical nuclear

1239
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:52,317
weapons. It's they train to use them.

1240
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,237
They it is part of their doctrine that

1241
01:11:54,320 --> 01:11:56,077
they will use them in conventional

1242
01:11:56,160 --> 01:11:59,517
conflict and they are like even just

1243
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:01,917
having that in their doctrine shows that

1244
01:12:02,000 --> 01:12:06,557
to some degree they are willing to bet
that the United States and nobody else

1245
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:08,477
would respond with strategic nuclear

1246
01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:11,037
weapons in response to use of a tactical

1247
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:15,597
nuclear weapon. And the you know some
people say oh even saying that they'll

1248
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:19,837
use a nuke is akin to supporting Russia
and saying we shouldn't support Ukraine.

1249
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:24,157
I'm not saying that at all. I think
actually appeasement has the the longer

1250
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,037
that they're actually the the greater
risk. I mean if you can show if you show

1251
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:29,597
to the world that if you show to a world

1252
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:32,797
that even the threat of smallcale

1253
01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,517
tactical nuclear weapons is enough to

1254
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:40,077
deter any kind
of intervention in any kind of

1255
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:41,837
con in any kind of conventional warfare.

1256
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:45,677
You actually hugely incentivize the
nations of the world to obtain their own

1257
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,037
tactical nuclear weapons. you you
you you don't really actually want the

1258
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,117
calculus to tip that way where countries
look and say, "Wow, all Russia had to do

1259
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,317
was threaten to use their tactical nukes
and then they were allowed to operate

1260
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:01,197
with impunity in a conventional invasion
and nobody was willing to stop to do

1261
01:13:01,280 --> 01:13:05,517
anything about it or even stop buying
their exports like that. That's the that

1262
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:09,597
that that would be a very very bad
precedent to set even beyond this war."

1263
01:13:09,680 --> 01:13:13,197
And [snorts] so for that reason,
I I think this is a little contrarian and

1264
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:17,597
not everyone agrees, but I think that
the odds of a tactical nuclear weapon

1265
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:21,757
are very high. It will not be used
on the United States. It will not be used

1266
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:24,317
on a NATO ally. It'll probably be a

1267
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,797
tactical nuclear weapon used to strike

1268
01:13:26,880 --> 01:13:29,677
some inarguably military target. Like it

1269
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:33,837
probably they're not gonna they're not
going to nuke Kev. uh it it's much more

1270
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:38,477
likely that it would be a port or a you
know or or an air installation or or

1271
01:13:38,560 --> 01:13:41,837
something like that. And I the reason I
like to talk about this is I want people

1272
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:43,597
to get comfortable with this because

1273
01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:46,557
there's this idea that you know you use

1274
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:51,197
you use a you use a nuclear weapon and
all of a sudden you're in World War II.

1275
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,637
Uh, I think that's actually probably
the wrong the wrong way to look at it

1276
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:59,277
because if you do that, you're tacitly
admitting that tactical nuclear weapons

1277
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,517
deserve a strategic nuclear level
response. And if you set that up as, you

1278
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:07,597
know, the the nice lubricated path we
all slide down, yeah, things can get

1279
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:10,957
really bad really.
>> This sounds like selfish and trite, but

1280
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:14,317
I I think I it's important to me and I
bet you it's important to a lot of

1281
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:17,037
people. What does that mean for me? uh a

1282
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,917
uh wealthy American with money in the

1283
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:23,437
stock market who lives in a nice life

1284
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:27,037
like does that mean that like uh
inflation is going to get huge? Does

1285
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:29,997
that mean that my investments are going
to go down? Does that mean that like

1286
01:14:30,080 --> 01:14:33,357
people I know I don't know anyone
in Ukraine so I I care about them but like

1287
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:38,717
does that mean people I know are going
to get hurt. What does that mean for me?

1288
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:41,837
It's a fair question. You know I'm in a
different position. I know I know people

1289
01:14:41,920 --> 01:14:45,597
who are from Ukraine. I I know people
who are in Ukraine. So for me it al it

1290
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:49,437
does get a little bit personal and we we
have employees here who are who who are

1291
01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:52,557
deeply deeply you know involved in one

1292
01:14:52,640 --> 01:14:56,957
way or another with the people of Ukraine.
Um but I I think mostly you

1293
01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,557
need to boil it now not to necessarily
Ukraine specific question but the the

1294
01:15:00,640 --> 01:15:03,197
broader geopolitical question is the

1295
01:15:03,280 --> 01:15:06,397
United States the world police? Are we

1296
01:15:06,480 --> 01:15:09,597
going to help our allies and to what

1297
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:13,677
extent? And I I'm not saying that that
necessarily means that we need to throw

1298
01:15:13,760 --> 01:15:18,237
ourselves into World War II over
every conflict, but we do need to very

1299
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:19,997
carefully weigh like what what will

1300
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:25,277
happen in Taiwan if we completely pull
that like there's a million ways to

1301
01:15:25,360 --> 01:15:28,237
tackle this. So, I'm not trying to set
up a straw man here, but I I'll throw

1302
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:31,677
out one that is actually very popular
with certain politicians. They say we

1303
01:15:31,760 --> 01:15:34,477
should completely pull out. We should

1304
01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:39,037
not engage. This is not our problem.
Let the let the ex-s Soviet guys duke it

1305
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,087
out. they can do whatever they want.

1306
01:15:41,170 --> 01:15:45,437
[clears throat] Well, one there
the first issue is uh our European allies

1307
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:47,917
are going to be in pretty bad shape if

1308
01:15:48,000 --> 01:15:49,917
they [snorts] have Russia right on their

1309
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:53,357
border able to move deep deep deep into

1310
01:15:53,440 --> 01:15:57,517
Europe without any kind of buffer. More
importantly, what do you think China's

1311
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:00,717
going to do if they see that that's the
United States attitude? They say, "Wow,

1312
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,797
like there there there is a price they
will not pay. Uh there is there is a

1313
01:16:04,880 --> 01:16:07,837
certain level they are not willing to get
engaged at. If we can raise the cost

1314
01:16:07,920 --> 01:16:10,317
above that level, then they will make

1315
01:16:10,400 --> 01:16:12,797
the short-term decision to not get

1316
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:15,037
engaged. That's very dangerous for

1317
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:17,597
Taiwan, which is in turn very dangerous

1318
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:20,157
for semiconductors and for our entire

1319
01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:22,957
economy. Like I if Taiwan actually gets

1320
01:16:23,040 --> 01:16:27,757
invaded by China, you could see a 30 or
40% drop in the stock market beyond what

1321
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:31,517
we've already seen. Like that that's not
even that's not even a that's not even a

1322
01:16:31,600 --> 01:16:33,837
a crazy assumption. That's like a pretty

1323
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,317
well backed up by all of the the boring

1324
01:16:36,400 --> 01:16:41,037
establishment e economics guys uh
prediction. So that that that the way

1325
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:43,117
that I see it is you your question. Why

1326
01:16:43,200 --> 01:16:46,637
should I care? Because if we want to

1327
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,437
maintain credibility as a player that can
deter wars, not just win wars, then

1328
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:55,757
we have to take actions that maintain
our credibility there. If we if if we

1329
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:59,117
were to say the ultimate version of this,
which is you're on your own world,

1330
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:03,037
we're all and we're going to do our own
thing. uh we're going to get screwed by

1331
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:05,197
that very very quickly. And so there's

1332
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:08,317
something between zero engagement and

1333
01:17:08,400 --> 01:17:12,237
you know D-Day 2.0 that we have to do.

1334
01:17:12,320 --> 01:17:16,557
>> This is great. Uh Palmer, where can
people find you if they want to go work

1335
01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:20,317
at Andrew or you know read more of your
stuff, your blog, your Twitter? Where

1336
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:23,037
where should people follow you
or find you if they like this?

1337
01:17:23,120 --> 01:17:27,437
>> Oh man. Well, my my my my handle
my handle across social media is Palmer

1338
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:31,677
Techch. Um, but on you can find me
on Twitter under the handle Palmerlucky.

1339
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,397
Uh, there's my website palmerlucky.com.

1340
01:17:34,480 --> 01:17:36,317
The number one Palmerlucky blog on the

1341
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:39,997
internet and is also WordPress site spun

1342
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:44,317
up. I'm coming for you. Uh, >> oh well.
Hey, mine's WordPress, too.

1343
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:48,157
Great tool. >> Yeah, just tell
me about Palmerlucky69.com.

1344
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:50,077
He's is this new project
he's [laughter] working on.

1345
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,797
>> Yeah, it's got a lot of promise.

1346
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,837
>> Oh, man. I got to check this out.
That sounds right up [laughter] my alley.

1347
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:58,077
>> Oh, wait, wait.
I forgot. Do you want to

1348
01:17:58,160 --> 01:18:02,157
rip a WWE style promo at Jason Calacanis

1349
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:06,157
who's coming after you? He's challenging
you to a fight. Why would you challenge

1350
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:09,997
a guy who builds weapons for a living to
a fight? I don't understand this. But if

1351
01:18:10,080 --> 01:18:14,477
you want to rip a a WWE style promo,
this is this is the place. There are

1352
01:18:14,560 --> 01:18:18,717
100,000 entrepreneurs ready to back you
here if you can get them on your side.

1353
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,557
>> I mean, maybe this is because I all
like, look, I'm I don't know if you can

1354
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:24,157
tell, but like I'm actually a pretty big

1355
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,317
guy. Like, I weigh about 250 lbs. I'm

1356
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:31,277
six feet tall. Um, like I it's kind of I

1357
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,717
understand the mechanics of fighting
well enough and I've I've done enough of

1358
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:37,197
it recreationally to understand that

1359
01:18:37,280 --> 01:18:39,037
it's unlikely that somebody who's like,

1360
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:42,637
you know, 5'5 and 140 lbs is going to is

1361
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,637
is going to have a a good shot. But I
the thing is I don't I'm not I'm not a

1362
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:48,157
I'm not a physical violence kind of guy.

1363
01:18:48,240 --> 01:18:50,157
I I think it's weird to be like, "Oh

1364
01:18:50,240 --> 01:18:54,557
yeah, you you you you don't like me.

1365
01:18:54,640 --> 01:18:57,837
Well, I could beat you in in hand-to-hand
combat. It's like, well, I

1366
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:01,677
mean, maybe, but like your ideas
are still bad, [laughter] but it's it

1367
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:06,397
doesn't one doesn't one doesn't solve
the other. Um, so no, I unfortunately I

1368
01:19:06,480 --> 01:19:09,037
don't think I'll be throwing I don't
think I'll be throwing down the gauntlet

1369
01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:14,077
beyond beyond noting that just you
statistically speaking, you know, if if

1370
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:18,477
you just look at the fights between
people of of of one bulk versus another,

1371
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:20,157
you there's there's there's a clear trend.

1372
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:22,317
>> Is this the most Silicon Valley, dude?

1373
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:26,477
Is [laughter] this the most
Silicon Valley call out ever?

1374
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,367
>> I am I know the mechanics of fighting.

1375
01:19:28,450 --> 01:19:30,470
[laughter]

1376
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:36,370
>> I I physics is on my side, [laughter]

1377
01:19:36,560 --> 01:19:40,237
But uh yeah, you know, I mean, and for
and for people who are listening and

1378
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:42,557
don't know, the very short version is J

1379
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:45,437
Jason Calacanis said a bunch of really

1380
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:48,157
awful stuff about me for for years

1381
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:51,677
starting back in 2016. You know, when he

1382
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:55,437
said that I'm a terrible person, that I
don't care about my family or my I think

1383
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:57,357
he said Palmer Lucky is a complete

1384
01:19:57,440 --> 01:20:02,477
who doesn't care about his employees or
his families or his friends. Uh and then

1385
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:05,757
you know Palmer's an idiot.
He's a Zuckerberg should fire him, get

1386
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:09,597
rid of him, what a useless waste of space.
Then I get fired, he celebrates

1387
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,477
it over and over. Oh man, I'm so glad
they fired Palmer. What a terrible

1388
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,557
loser, etc., etc. Anyway, then he just
didn't then he just didn't talk to me

1389
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:21,357
for years. Never reached out and then
he invited me to go speak at uh on his

1390
01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:24,957
podcast and then at his conference. So
I went there and I I basically just told

1391
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:28,557
people I'm like, I can't believe Jason
invited me. It's only because I've

1392
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:32,397
clawed my way back to having a second
unicorn before the age of 30. like this

1393
01:20:32,480 --> 01:20:36,557
guy treated me like total garbage for
years. He's never apologized. He spread

1394
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:40,397
a bunch of li even insult aside.
He spread a bunch of lies about me. And

1395
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:43,517
then uh at at the com and I said, "Hey,
here look at all this he said about

1396
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:47,197
me." Like this. >> Yeah. You had like
a like a deck. It was amazing. [laughter]

1397
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:51,597
>> Yeah. Yeah. And and then uh and I
did that at the end of my talk about, you

1398
01:20:51,680 --> 01:20:54,397
know, basically the the future
of conflict and particularly the war in

1399
01:20:54,480 --> 01:20:58,477
Ukraine. And then at the conference
he said that he was sorry if he said

1400
01:20:58,560 --> 01:21:02,237
anything that offended me. But then when
he put my video up, he said, "Actually,

1401
01:21:02,320 --> 01:21:04,477
I take it back. Everything that I said

1402
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:09,357
was accurate and I don't regret exactly
what I said about him." Um, and I and so

1403
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:12,957
I now people people keep hitting me up
like you guys need to bury the hatchet,

1404
01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:17,677
you know, meet in the middle. I'm like,
I didn't do anything to like you you

1405
01:21:17,760 --> 01:21:20,877
can't meet in the middle. Like, you're
right. Maybe maybe I don't care about my

1406
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:24,477
family, but you know, we can admit I I
care about my friends. Let's meet in the

1407
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:27,517
middle. It's like, no, no, it's not
going to happen. Uh anyway, so now now

1408
01:21:27,600 --> 01:21:29,037
Jason's saying that he can that he can

1409
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:32,557
beat me up uh on and he's uh and and and

1410
01:21:32,640 --> 01:21:36,717
you know, look, maybe he could,
but the odds don't seem in his favor.

1411
01:21:36,800 --> 01:21:40,317
>> I do think he trains jiu-jitsu, so you
know, he does have that going for him if

1412
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:44,397
I recall correctly. >> Hey,
you know, I I I I did I did karate

1413
01:21:44,480 --> 01:21:48,717
one [laughter] time when I was a kid,
you know, but eventually but eventually

1414
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,117
you get old. [laughter] >> Yeah.

1415
01:21:51,200 --> 01:21:55,277
Well, now it's it's been wild for me cuz
I mean my whole career I've been uh my

1416
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:57,037
my my whole career I've been a whiz kid.

1417
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:00,877
You know, it's like the Palmer lucky
value proposition is wow, look at that

1418
01:22:00,960 --> 01:22:04,877
guy. He's improbably successful given
his age. And now it's just look at

1419
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,797
Palmer. He's Yeah, he's successful.
I guess [laughter] you know 30.

1420
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,317
>> Yeah, I wouldn't really want to deal
with the psychological with you or

1421
01:22:12,400 --> 01:22:16,797
anything. And also uh you know I find
Jason very entertaining. I like I don't

1422
01:22:16,880 --> 01:22:19,517
know him personally very well
or anything but but you know he's

1423
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,997
entertaining but he also I think was
totally wrong in this uh circumstance. I

1424
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,477
remember when I first heard him say
all that I looked it up. I was like

1425
01:22:26,560 --> 01:22:29,517
man Palmer must have well actually
called you Parker Lucky. I was like oh

1426
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:33,357
man this Parker Lucky this pluckucky
little guy must have done something

1427
01:22:33,440 --> 01:22:37,357
really messed up. And then I saw what
was actually done and I saw the coverage

1428
01:22:37,440 --> 01:22:42,317
and I was like oh he he donated $10,000
to you know like this thing or whatever.

1429
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:45,277
And you know, you you were >> whatever.

1430
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:48,557
>> But Jason was out there saying he
says Palmer's paying Trump supporters.

1431
01:22:48,640 --> 01:22:51,677
>> Extreme terror trolling. Anti Yeah.

1432
01:22:51,760 --> 01:22:56,077
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Extreme terror trolling.
He said not quite violent, but

1433
01:22:56,160 --> 01:22:58,157
close to it. And he's posting

1434
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,597
anti-semitic memes and misogynistic hate

1435
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:05,517
attacks. It's like, dude, it was $9,000
to a billboard. Like, you've you've

1436
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:10,317
given a heck of a lot more [laughter]
to spicier political stuff than that. But

1437
01:23:10,400 --> 01:23:13,357
you know, you know,
in a political cause or a

1438
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:16,557
political donation is nothing. Like, you
know, I think that's one of the big one

1439
01:23:16,640 --> 01:23:18,877
of the big hypocrisies,
>> not as mainstream as you can get.

1440
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,277
>> One of the big hypocrisies
of Silicon Valley is like it's all about

1441
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:24,077
open-mindedness. Unless you disagree
with us, unless you unless you believe

1442
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,677
in the thing I don't agree with, then
how dare you believe that, you know, how

1443
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,717
dare you support that candidate I don't
like. How dare you, you know, that half

1444
01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:33,197
the country, you know, votes
for or whatever. It's one of the great

1445
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:37,117
hypocrisies. It's so it's so and it's so
foreign to me too cuz I mean like one of

1446
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:39,037
my best friends is a socialist and like

1447
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:41,357
we had we very we we strongly disagree

1448
01:23:41,440 --> 01:23:44,317
politically but like you running Oculus

1449
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:46,637
I was never I I I like I had my

1450
01:23:46,720 --> 01:23:49,277
political beliefs but they were like 1%

1451
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:52,477
of my time in thinking 99% of it was on

1452
01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:56,317
VR in my company and it's it's it's
actually very funny where like I there

1453
01:23:56,400 --> 01:24:00,157
was a story recently said you know
Palmer Palmer Lucky you know a very

1454
01:24:00,240 --> 01:24:02,397
outspoken Republican. I'm like, I mean,

1455
01:24:02,480 --> 01:24:04,557
I've literally tweeted about politics

1456
01:24:04,640 --> 01:24:08,077
two times in eight years. Like, yeah,

1457
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:11,597
I'm not outspoken by any means, but to
them it means like, oh, there was this

1458
01:24:11,680 --> 01:24:16,157
story years ago where he privately
donated not using his name, and that

1459
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:18,397
means he's an outspoken Republican. And

1460
01:24:18,480 --> 01:24:20,157
you know, imagine if people were like,

1461
01:24:20,240 --> 01:24:23,437
Mark Zuckerberg, outspoken Democrat,

1462
01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:27,437
does X. Like, nobody nobody would ever
>> autoorrect would be like, you must have

1463
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:30,317
made a mistake. This sentence
doesn't get typed. [laughter]

1464
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:34,077
Yeah. Yeah. But you know I mean that but
that that's the best part about Anderall

1465
01:24:34,160 --> 01:24:35,677
is that you know like I have my

1466
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:37,757
political beliefs like our CEO Brian

1467
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:41,197
Ship he's he's very much a Democrat. Uh

1468
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:45,117
and we have a huge mix of people
at Anderol across the entire political

1469
01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,397
spectrum. And what we've done is said
listen we we might not agree on

1470
01:24:48,480 --> 01:24:51,357
everything but we agree on the
importance of national security. We

1471
01:24:51,440 --> 01:24:55,597
agree that the United States needs
to have the tools that deter Russia, China

1472
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:59,917
and other aggressors from getting into
fights with our partners and allies. and

1473
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,917
we agree that we can save taxpayers
hundreds of billions of dollars a year

1474
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:06,637
while we make tens of billions of dollars
a year. And if we agree on those

1475
01:25:06,720 --> 01:25:09,837
things, we need to put aside
the differences and you focus on what's

1476
01:25:09,920 --> 01:25:12,957
what's the same. And I think that's
been a really healthy company company

1477
01:25:13,040 --> 01:25:15,997
culture. Like a lot of other companies,
you know, they they'll they want to take

1478
01:25:16,080 --> 01:25:19,277
one political side of the other. And
we've been very clear, no, we are not a

1479
01:25:19,360 --> 01:25:24,237
politically uh oriented company. We are
a missionoriented company. And to the

1480
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:27,437
extent like if a Republican does
something that's bad for our mission,

1481
01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:31,597
we're going to push back on it. If
a Democrat does something that is bad for

1482
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:35,197
our mission, we're going to push back on
it. But it needs to be about our ability

1483
01:25:35,280 --> 01:25:39,597
to, you know, defend the West, not our,
you know, our personal opinions on how

1484
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:43,197
the country should be run. So [laughter]
that's that that's I I highly encourage

1485
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:46,797
people to set that to set that tone when
they're starting their own companies if

1486
01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,317
you want to be able to attract people
from all over the country, all over the

1487
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:53,197
world, of all different political
persuasions. Cuz if you pick a side,

1488
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:56,397
you're you're alienating huge swats of
people. Not just the people who disagree

1489
01:25:56,480 --> 01:26:00,637
with you, but also people who don't want
to be in a company that's partisan and

1490
01:26:00,720 --> 01:26:03,197
might not even care one way or the other.
I I know there's a lot of people

1491
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,877
here like, look, I don't I don't even
really have a strong political set of

1492
01:26:06,960 --> 01:26:10,637
beliefs. Uh but I do know I don't want
to work in a place where that's the

1493
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,157
thing that drives all our decisions.

1494
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:14,637
>> You're like, oh, we got the office
socialist just walking around giving

1495
01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:16,077
away snacks. It's awesome. It's great.

1496
01:26:16,160 --> 01:26:17,997
You need a diverse workplace like this.

1497
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:20,317
This is awesome, >> dude.
You're awesome, man. I'm That's

1498
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:24,397
right. I'm so pumped that uh you came on.
Uh this is this is this has been

1499
01:26:24,480 --> 01:26:26,557
amazing. I would love
you to come on again.

1500
01:26:26,640 --> 01:26:29,517
>> Well, wait. I have to bring up one
more thing. I have to bring up one more

1501
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:34,317
thing. I So, I I get a chance to bring
something up. Fine. Uh I I we we we we

1502
01:26:34,400 --> 01:26:38,477
got we got to talk about the the tweet
you made where you said that uh there's

1503
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:42,157
no way that there's any billionaires out
there [laughter] that actually fly coach

1504
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:44,957
AND DON'T FLY. >> OH, YES.
GOOD. You have got a good

1505
01:26:45,040 --> 01:26:48,957
memory. Do you do you fly coach? Oh, you
you do fly coach. You said that. You're

1506
01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:50,957
an idiot. What are you doing?
JKL was right.

1507
01:26:51,040 --> 01:26:55,837
>> No, it [laughter] it I mean,
so so I I I the reason I wanted

1508
01:26:55,920 --> 01:26:58,557
to chat about it is because yeah,
I think I responded. I told you like, hey,

1509
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:02,477
you're wrong. Like I I actually do I
don't fly private and I do fly coach. Uh

1510
01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:04,237
for me, it's it's a it's a it's a

1511
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:08,317
reasoned thing where uh we we exceptions

1512
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:12,237
for long ter like long long
international travel, we only cover

1513
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:16,077
coach travel for our employees. It's
like look, it's only a few hours. like

1514
01:27:16,160 --> 01:27:19,757
it is a very bad use of company money
for us to be buying business or first

1515
01:27:19,840 --> 01:27:22,157
class for people because we have so much

1516
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,477
travel at the company. We could easily

1517
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,757
spend a very serious fraction of our of

1518
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:32,397
our uh of our resources on just people
traveling in slightly better seats. And

1519
01:27:32,480 --> 01:27:35,597
so, and it's especially especially bad
when it's like, oh, am I really going to

1520
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:39,517
pay you to like, you know, fly business
class for three hours to a place where

1521
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:43,037
you're then going to like sweat it out
in the desert for for a week? Like, you

1522
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:46,397
know, it's it's only like, you know, >>
so you coach seats better than the desert.

1523
01:27:46,480 --> 01:27:49,037
>> You and your wife or your girlfriend
or whatever, if you're going to Europe,

1524
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:52,317
you're going to fly coach.
>> Even when I use my own money, I fly

1525
01:27:52,400 --> 01:27:54,957
coach. And people say, "Well, why don't
you just fly first class? Why don't you

1526
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:59,277
fly business?" And here's why. Because
I expect my employees to fly coach. And

1527
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:04,077
even like yes, I have a lot of money,
but it's if I don't also do it, it feels

1528
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,437
like I'm out of touch or I don't know
what it's like or you know, oh, it's

1529
01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:10,957
easy for you to say that we should fly
coach because you don't have to do it

1530
01:28:11,040 --> 01:28:13,757
because you happen to have a bunch of
money. And so for for me, a lot of it is

1531
01:28:13,840 --> 01:28:17,837
setting example like look, it's not
actually that bad. I am willing to do it

1532
01:28:17,920 --> 01:28:22,317
even when I pay for my own travel.
Uh because that's I I think it's just not

1533
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:25,037
that bad. >> Don't you
have like people who want to

1534
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:28,757
like kill you or like hurt you?
I mean, aren't you like a I mean, like

1535
01:28:28,840 --> 01:28:32,157
[laughter] like you've got the whole
anti-Trump crowd who sees you and

1536
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:34,877
they're like, "Go f yourself." And then
now you're like dealing with Lockhee

1537
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:38,797
Martin and stuff. Surely they want
to like kneecap you. You got you're your I

1538
01:28:38,880 --> 01:28:41,197
don't know what your state
is on China, but >> fanatics.

1539
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:44,237
>> Yeah. You got Jason Calcan is going to
come trying to put you in a nuggie. Like

1540
01:28:44,320 --> 01:28:46,957
something's going to happen. [laughter]
You know what I mean? Like surely like

1541
01:28:47,040 --> 01:28:48,557
there's like some type of security risk.

1542
01:28:48,640 --> 01:28:51,437
Also, maybe you have life insurance or
something like that. If they're going to

1543
01:28:51,520 --> 01:28:55,117
insure you, I'd be like, "Dog,
you're doing you're you got to have this a

1544
01:28:55,200 --> 01:28:58,477
security person with you or you got to
like have someone with you." Like surely

1545
01:28:58,560 --> 01:29:00,237
there's some type of security risk where

1546
01:29:00,320 --> 01:29:03,357
you got to think like beyond just like,

1547
01:29:03,440 --> 01:29:08,317
"Hey guys, I'm in solitude with you on
this flight." Like I get it. Like I mean

1548
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:11,597
surely there's some type of like
>> You're to you're you're to you're

1549
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:14,957
totally right. And I I mean it depends
on the trip where the trip is and what

1550
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:19,437
I'm doing. And like I I'm I I make sure
to keep myself safe. Um, and I probably

1551
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:21,917
don't want to get into the specifics
because, you know, like you said,

1552
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:25,997
there's people out there who who who
are not fans of me and like they you you

1553
01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:29,597
mentioned, you know, Jason Calcanis
and the Trump people, but like what about

1554
01:29:29,680 --> 01:29:32,877
the Mexican cartels that we've cost
hundreds of millions of dollars in drug

1555
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,317
trade? What about, you know, all
the people who have been foiled in attacks

1556
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:40,637
on US military forces because of our
stuff? And you there's there's actually

1557
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:42,797
a long list of people who are more who

1558
01:29:42,880 --> 01:29:47,677
are scarier than than Jason Calacanis,
if you can believe it. Um, but uh, look,

1559
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:51,277
you you're right that to some degree
that that's a worry, but I also think

1560
01:29:51,360 --> 01:29:54,397
that in general, if someone's going
to come to kill me, it's probably going to

1561
01:29:54,480 --> 01:29:58,237
be a place where they know I'm going to
be. And there's there's there's actually

1562
01:29:58,320 --> 01:30:02,237
much higher like to me, the high-risisk
place is actually not on a on a flight

1563
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:05,357
in the secure zone. Yeah. It's not
on Southwest in the secure zone of an

1564
01:30:05,440 --> 01:30:09,517
airport. Uh, like there's actually it's
actually probably more likely to be the

1565
01:30:09,600 --> 01:30:13,917
restaurants I go to too much. U, but I
anyway, I guess I want to explain that's

1566
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:17,277
why I do it. If if I'm going to ask my
employees to do it, I need to do it too.

1567
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:21,597
Even when it's my own money, even when
it's my own cost, because otherwise you

1568
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:25,277
are like you be you become an out it's
not just that I appear out of touch. I

1569
01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:29,037
would literally be out of touch.
And look, maybe one day coach gets so bad

1570
01:30:29,120 --> 01:30:32,317
that I tell everyone, guys, you know what?
I hear you. We're all going

1571
01:30:32,400 --> 01:30:35,357
business now. Uh but I think
I think today is not that day.

1572
01:30:35,440 --> 01:30:38,877
>> You're crazy. I I've agreed with
everything you've said except for that.

1573
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:41,997
You are crazy. >> Yeah. No,
I'm actually [laughter] glad

1574
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:45,357
you said this cuz I was feeling like,
man, this guy's great. He's funny. He's

1575
01:30:45,440 --> 01:30:49,277
smart. He's just really big thinker.
I'm glad you have something you're totally

1576
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:52,397
wrong about. It makes me feel so much
better [laughter] in this interview.

1577
01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:56,077
That's a great service you did
for everybody here by having this absolute

1578
01:30:56,160 --> 01:31:00,477
nonsense policy for yourself. You know,
like if I go get you if I'm the guy who

1579
01:31:00,560 --> 01:31:03,677
flies to go get that billion dollar
contract and I'm flying back, you know,

1580
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,877
in the in the sea zone
of Southwest, [laughter]

1581
01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:10,877
I'm rioting the next day at work.
I'm telling you, I I love the I love the

1582
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:14,877
back of the plane on the window. Nobody
Nobody bothers you. You can get on. You

1583
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:18,077
can let everybody get off the plane
before you do. You don't have to fight

1584
01:31:18,160 --> 01:31:22,157
anybody. You just, you know, let
everyone feel what I I got to throw this

1585
01:31:22,240 --> 01:31:27,117
in. My my my grandpa was a pilot
for United Airlines for over 40 years. And

1586
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:30,797
so I also grew up around commercial
airlines. And so this might be another

1587
01:31:30,880 --> 01:31:33,037
thing like to me there is a certain

1588
01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:36,397
romanticism to like mass market, mass

1589
01:31:36,480 --> 01:31:40,477
available air travel. Like what an
incredible thing. And we did it. America

1590
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:43,997
did it. We figured out how to make
it economically viable. And we build

1591
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:48,237
everyone else's airplanes. Like it it
is an American thing. And so I even when

1592
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:51,517
you're on everyone else's planes,
they're mostly made by Americans. And

1593
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:53,277
the ones that are made by Europeans were

1594
01:31:53,360 --> 01:31:55,837
made with American technology. So I I uh

1595
01:31:55,920 --> 01:32:01,037
look I I I also like to feet. I think
feet are gross. You're into coach. I

1596
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:03,837
think coach is gross. Boy, you know,
to each their own. And I think we'll leave

1597
01:32:03,920 --> 01:32:05,037
it at that. Agree to disagree.

1598
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:08,957
>> Each their own. [laughter] No,
look, I uh I disagree with that

1599
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:12,237
opinion, but I respect it like hell and I
respect [laughter] you. You're you're

1600
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:15,197
the best, man. I would love for you
to come on if you want, like in a few

1601
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:19,197
weeks, a few months, whenever, and talk
some more about ideas. You're uh I'm a

1602
01:32:19,280 --> 01:32:22,157
fan of yours, so this feels really
cool that you're here. Maybe we

1603
01:32:22,240 --> 01:32:24,877
>> Thank you. I appreciate that. This This
has been a lot of fun. We covered some

1604
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:26,957
good ground today. >> Yes.
And maybe we've suckered you into

1605
01:32:27,040 --> 01:32:30,077
beingcoming friends with us. So,
if you ever want, you could DM us DM us on

1606
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:33,677
Twitter. We have hobbies. Who knows?
I don't know. Maybe you we'll invite each

1607
01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:36,397
other over and hang out. you could show
us a thing or two. I don't know. We'll

1608
01:32:36,480 --> 01:32:39,677
see what happens. But, uh, this has been
awesome. Come on. Come on. Come on down

1609
01:32:39,760 --> 01:32:42,157
anytime. >> All right.
Sweet. Thank you so much.

1610
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:46,120
>> All right. See you guys later.