1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:06,957 Wow, it's so much brighter out here. 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,397 >> It is. It's, you know, the future is bright. 3 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,117 >> There's lens flare in the future. 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,757 >> Yeah. So, welcome everybody to the Oscars of 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,477 optimism. That, of course, we're opening up the summit with the king of 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,290 AUTONOMOUS WEAPON SYSTEMS. >> [laughter] 7 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,997 >> ALL RIGHT. SO, 8 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:30,917 I'M GOING TO start with the fact that 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,957 we're awarding three X prizes this week. 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,757 Palmer, congratulations for winning our 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,187 wildfire X prize. >> Thank you so much. 12 00:00:41,270 --> 00:00:45,037 >> [applause] >> This one's been a long time in in the works. 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:50,877 >> Let's get Let's get the the the slide up here. So, Palmer won $2.2 million for 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,117 Anduril. >> As if you needed it. 15 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,797 >> Um a million of 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,597 a million of that from Lockheed, 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,157 which was kind of interesting. 18 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,957 >> We do a lot of work with Lockheed. We also compete with them, but we 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,237 in the in the defense space, it's you know, we we we compete with their 20 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:10,957 fighter jet division and we partner with them on some of their payloads. And so, 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,557 we do a lot of stuff together. But, you me and you have both been trying to get 22 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,277 this autonomous firefighting stuff going for a long time. 23 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,677 >> mean, you got this prize announced back in 2019. It's been a long time. 24 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,037 Anduril's one of our first two products was an autonomous firefighting tank that 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,117 we started building in 2017, finished in 2019. 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,357 >> It's insane that we let fires become conflagrations before we put them out. 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:36,357 >> And it well, and it's and it's kind of insane that people are saying, "Oh, the 28 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,357 you know, the technology's finally made it possible." And I don't know, I'm not 29 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,437 going to correct them too often in public, but it's I mean, this has been 30 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,437 possible for over a decade. It's >> Yeah. All right. 31 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,517 >> It's just that it's become politically politically 32 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,557 impossible to ignore the problem now. 33 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,797 >> We'll watch a 1-minute video clip of what your team achieved. And if you walk 34 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,917 us through it here. >> Sure. So, you this was 35 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,717 an example of what we were doing at the test site where we were 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,717 detecting fires, classifying fires. What you don't really see in here is that you 37 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:08,557 also need [music] to reject false fires. 38 00:02:08,640 --> 00:02:11,077 That was part of the test as well. So, you have to know, you know, who's the 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,317 guy smoking a cigarette? Who's the guy What's What's What's a campfire? What's 40 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:17,557 a road flare? And then what's something that shows the characteristics of real 41 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:22,037 fire? That's what you need to flag to people. That's what you need to flag to 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,517 emergency services. Uh and then you need 43 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,757 to match make the type of fire to the right asset that's in the area. And so, 44 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:34,397 you want to basically use the most cost-effective thing that can respond 45 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,277 and get there in time. And if something's growing faster, you might 46 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,997 need something different. If it's in woods versus on a brush hill, you might 47 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,997 need something different. And so, you know, it's it's about detection, 48 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:48,477 classification, rejection, matchmaking, and then going and and hitting the 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,877 target. And the last thing I'll say is that with most of what we do, 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,557 uh our work with the military, you'd go through many of these same 51 00:02:56,640 --> 00:03:00,437 steps, but if you find a target, let's say it 52 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:03,197 takes you, you know, an hour to an hour 53 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,837 to to get to somebody versus 10 minutes, 54 00:03:05,920 --> 00:03:10,317 it usually doesn't make as much of a difference. When you're talking about 55 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:15,157 fire, though, the difference between 10 minutes and an hour response, totally 56 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,157 different tools you're going to need to respond with. You know, 57 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,237 a bomb is is is a is a bomb whether or not it takes a day or an hour or a 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,637 minute to get there. Uh but when you when when a fire is is is is 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,117 metastasizing, you need to pick the right thing that can put it out before 60 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:30,917 it gets too large. >> Amazing. 61 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,877 >> You know, uh we're going to be announcing something 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:35,877 in a month's time 63 00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,037 uh that you're funding a new X Prize, 64 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:44,157 and uh it's going to be secret until then, but we're going to tease it now. 65 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,117 Uh another $10 million prize. Would you share share with us what we're going to 66 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:53,277 do? >> Sure, you know, uh the 67 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,477 you know, we we should we should keep the details secret cuz there's there's 68 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,637 some there's some good twists, but 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,957 suffice to say that I'm not I'm not 70 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,157 interested in joining the race to push 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:08,237 AI forward with my money. I think that the 72 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,237 the artificial intelligence side of models is is is pretty well covered by 73 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,357 plenty of people. I think we've not been doing enough understanding biological 74 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,837 intelligence particularly beyond people 75 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,477 and so this is going to be a prize around understanding how animals think 76 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,357 and making so that we can communicate with them 10 times better than the 77 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:30,677 current state of the art for the current smartest species and not just trained 78 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:34,677 animals, but wild animals in their own in their own language. 79 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,477 >> Amazing. [applause and cheering] >> And I think that there's actually a lot 80 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,357 that we're going to be able to learn. I mean, if you look at large language 81 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,357 models, they're kind of this, you know, they're they're they're based on 82 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:45,917 humanity's way of thinking and 83 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,877 communicating distilled and I think that 84 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,397 there's plenty to learn from all of the other species that are on this planet 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:58,037 and I wouldn't be surprised if it has applications for AI particularly AI 86 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,317 where you need to be more efficient, you know, more power 87 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,637 efficient, more time efficient, you know, 88 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,957 a different point of view, two heads are better than one, whichever whatever 89 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,517 metaphor you want to use. >> Love it. Love it. All right, I'm going 90 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,077 to kick off the first official question here. 91 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:20,280 P-doom, you're in the AI industry, the defense industry, what's your P-doom? 92 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,197 >> I'm just not worried 93 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,837 about AI dooming 94 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,357 the I guess I'm not worried about AI doing the killing. I'm very very worried 95 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,757 about evil people >> Yes. >> using moderately competent AI to do evil things. 96 00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:39,117 >> Exactly. >> And I am s- 97 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,957 kind of frustrated by a lot of people 98 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:45,477 who are new to the dooming hobby. 99 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,757 It's It's It's sort It's sort of like how we had to deal with 100 00:05:49,840 --> 00:05:53,197 the war in Ukraine happens and all of a sudden all these people who have had the 101 00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:58,397 dumbest opinions you've ever heard about the military for their whole life 102 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,997 and people who believed we lived at the end of history that we had moved past 103 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,877 conflict that we lived in a world where you could just write a nasty letter in 104 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,317 the UN forgetting that that only works if it's backed up by credible threat of 105 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:12,717 violence and then all of a sudden they change their minds. You're seeing this 106 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,637 with AI. People who have not thought about this problem for more than 107 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,197 a couple years or maybe even just a couple months 108 00:06:21,280 --> 00:06:25,197 are saying oh my god this is the biggest threat to humanity. These are people who 109 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:29,077 have spent almost no time actually analyzing what the largest threats to 110 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,917 humanity are. They haven't spoken to any of the experts in this area. They 111 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,317 certainly weren't buying freeze-dried food and building prepper bunkers, you 112 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,397 know, like like like like me and many of 113 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,917 my my my buddies who who have who have 114 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,677 indulged fantasies about what doom could 115 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,517 look like and also thought realistically about it. And so yeah, the AI doom is 116 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,517 way down the list for me. I'm I'm I'm I'm a big optimist. I think it's going 117 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:57,317 to massively reduce the cost of resource extraction, processing, transformation. 118 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:01,077 You're going to see every part of society become subject to the same 119 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,557 economies of scale and efficiency that automated industries that automated 120 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,957 without AI have seen. So think like 121 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,037 agriculture or or textiles. You can buy 122 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:17,317 2 weeks of calories for less than 1 hour 123 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,557 of federal minimum wage labor. That's crazy. 124 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,437 >> Let's give it up for Palmer here. You're going to see that for everything. 125 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:29,757 >> David [applause] >> So I I got a really um pressing question on my mind. I'm kind 126 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,917 of a feeds and feeds and ships and AI foundation models guy. 127 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,837 And so when you're putting systems in the field, weapons in the field, uh 128 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,397 you can you can put the intelligence inside it and it this has always been a 129 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,837 big problem for the Air Force, like if we're going to start flying drones 130 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,557 instead of pilots, who's going to unleash the weapons and how's that 131 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,117 decision going to get made? And the the downside of transmitting it back to 132 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,997 headquarters is you have latency. 133 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,117 Uh the upside is you have a lot more compute. Uh what you can put locally in 134 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,957 a device, in a robot in the field, in a plane is limited, but it's really really 135 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,277 fast. So what's your philosophy on like, you know, I think a lot of people would 136 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,357 say, well, are we going to have self-contained decision-making weapons 137 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,797 wandering around enemy territories or are we going to have like are we going 138 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,597 to have you know, control at the headquarters? 139 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,877 >> Yeah, more or less. The the real concern 140 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,277 isn't so much the latency or or the 141 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,077 speed of computation. The problem is that if you rely on 142 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:25,877 you know, a central a central location 143 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,517 to do your compute, you now need to have 144 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,357 command and control that has a good high-bandwidth communication back and 145 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,197 forth between you and potentially thousands or tens of thousands of active 146 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:41,117 assets. And if your enemy jams your communications or intercepts your 147 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,637 communications or hacks your communications, you're done. 148 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,797 Uh or worse, they just skip targeting all the stuff in the field and they go 149 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,757 for the place where it's all being controlled. You know, we saw we saw this 150 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,517 I there was a there was a there there was there was this documentary that 151 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,437 George Lucas was working on and and the Trade Federation, they had they had 152 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,077 their central AI command and control blown up and that was how the Battle of 153 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:09,197 Naboo actually resolved was all all the battle droids lost 154 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:09,957 >> Oh yeah, they all fell over. 155 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,717 >> That's right, they all fell over. And so I think that that's that that's the 156 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,917 practical reality that's driving the need to have autonomy living not back 157 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,077 home, but forward. There's other areas 158 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,917 like you go underwater, you can't talk 159 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,357 to things. And sometimes you could talk to things, but you don't want to. Having 160 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:32,557 radio emissions actually exposes you necessarily. And so what what you 161 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:34,757 for better or for worse, you're going to need this. I actually don't think it's 162 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,157 as much of a shift as people think. 163 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,317 I there's a lot of people who look at this and say, "Oh my god, Pandora's Box 164 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,277 is being opened. You're going to have weapons that are making their own kill 165 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,277 decisions." And they don't recognize the reality, which is that that's been the 166 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:51,637 case for decades. You look at the You look at the You look at the Aegis system 167 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,317 on destroyers. It has a fully autonomous mode. You can flip a button and it will 168 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:57,717 shoot down anything that comes within 169 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,277 whatever range you programmed it with 170 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,117 without any human confirmation. You look at SeaWiz and SeaRAM for shooting down 171 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,957 incoming missiles, incoming incoming artillery fire, incoming missiles, or 172 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,237 incoming speedboats. Same thing. You can put them in fully 173 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,317 autonomous modes. And I mean, it Going back to into Vietnam, we had missiles 174 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,877 that you could launch from an aircraft. 175 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,797 They flew over the horizon, tried to identify the right radio emitters that 176 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,157 they believed corresponded with a surface-to-air missile launch site, and 177 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,837 then struck them without any The person had to decide, "I'm going to send it in 178 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,637 this area. They're going to look for this signal, and I know that there's 179 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:33,997 this probability they're going to get it 180 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:36,117 right." That decision is going to remain 181 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,837 with people. But, autonomous weapons are 182 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,557 widely widely There's a whole other talk we're not going to have today, but I 183 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,957 will I I do have a rant about this where 184 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,597 actually autonomous weapons have existed for thousands of years. If you look at 185 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:54,997 Defined as kind of weapons that can execute the intent of what you 186 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,157 programmed to do independent from the operator to the engineer. You look at, 187 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,877 for example, pitfall traps that allow people to walk over them, but then 188 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,117 capture the commander on his horse when he walks by and it's heavier. You look 189 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,237 at certain poison traps that would that 190 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:14,037 would kill people who had who had certain characteristics, not kill people 191 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,917 who had other characteristics, or not kill animals. 192 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,037 You look many types of landmines and sea mines 193 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:25,997 and even even torpedoes. And so, it depends on on your exact definition. 194 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,197 But, even going into myth where people are creating golems that can you go out 195 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,677 and fight on their fight on their behalf or or defend you defend their city. 196 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,357 I I guess my argument is we've had autonomous weapons for a very very long 197 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,437 time. It's just a new set of technology that's that's making them better. 198 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,877 >> So, technical question on that. The foundation models that go into those 199 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,757 those remote systems >> Or the pit traps. 200 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,597 >> Yeah, well so that that right right now the open source models 201 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,317 are all Chinese. So, I'm pretty sure you're not going to be putting Chinese 202 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,317 models into remote weapons. Are you going to build Anduril foundation models 203 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,157 or how how are you going to get AI in those devices? 204 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,597 >> I mean, we've been doing it since 2017. 205 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,397 So, we're way ahead of everybody. We're we're a decade beyond that question. 206 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,317 Um I think that we also don't the foundation models that people are 207 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,157 building are not the types of models you want to be doing this. They're non that 208 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:17,677 they're largely non-deterministic. 209 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,277 They're non-auditable. It it's it's a very different category. The thing that 210 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,157 we are building, unfortunately, has very few consumer applications. 211 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:30,237 >> Mhm. >> And vice versa. Um there of course are LLM use cases for 212 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,077 defense that make a lot of sense, but it's not guiding my missile or or 213 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,637 classifying radar your radar radar radar feeds. I mean, and we we're also we 214 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:43,157 can't build models that ingest text and then spit out text. I need to process 215 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:47,517 raw data radar data feeds. I need to process sonar data from passive 216 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:51,357 listening stations on submarines. That's it's it's pretty highly specialized. And 217 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:53,277 I I will take some credit here. 218 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,677 Uh all these people who are talking about how AI is going to change everything 219 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,317 they are mostly uh recent converts. 220 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,957 Anduril Industries, you might notice the acronym is AI. Um so, and that that was 221 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,037 not that was not a mistake. >> Okay. 222 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,757 >> Alex, jump in. >> Yeah, I think maybe dovetailing on our 223 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,077 discussion of driving bench, we're now in an era when it's possible to take 224 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,957 frontier models, drop them into a robotic embodiment, and get pretty 225 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,757 stunning results. So, I'd love to ask you a question maybe about the scaling 226 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,197 hypothesis as it applies to autonomous 227 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,797 weapon systems or autonomous systems in general. If you have to extrapolate out, 228 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:32,477 is there a Moore's law? Is there an 229 00:13:32,560 --> 00:13:36,037 experience curve for what as obviously 230 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:39,877 the capabilities of underlying frontier models, whether they're from Frontier 231 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,637 Labs proper or from AI, 232 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,277 as as those progress, do we see any equivalent of a Moore's 233 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,157 law for the autonomous systems themselves? And and maybe the the second 234 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,077 half of the question would be, do you 235 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,477 think ultimately we achieve some sort of 236 00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,677 convergency? Anduril it makes a variety 237 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:01,237 of embodiments in a variety of different 238 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,477 form factors. Do you see ultimately some 239 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,637 general purpose category killer robot 240 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:12,637 that is equivalently the generalist robotic embodiment just like we now have 241 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,957 generalist models that are capable of doing substantially any task? 242 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,157 >> No, I don't think so on the defense 243 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,437 side. I think that for manufacturing and 244 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,757 for hospitality and medicine, you might see this because you get economies of 245 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,997 scale that uh that that that that that are really that are really material for 246 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,437 those types of businesses and you know, a humanoid robot may not be the optimal 247 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,317 form for a burger griller and it may not be the optimal form for a firefighter. 248 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,717 It may not be the optimal form for a for a nurse [laughter] or an assembly 249 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,197 technician. >> I see you're smiling. 250 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,117 >> But even if it's not optimal, the fact 251 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:50,237 that it is shared with humanity in its form makes it a really really good form 252 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,517 factor. And now I can make one robot that does all of these things and I I 253 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:56,757 would probably rather have a let's say 254 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,557 robot that's 5% slower or or you know, 255 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,677 less reliable than the optimal burger 256 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,277 flipping robot if I can share 257 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,797 commonality with that with that nurse. 258 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,237 In defense, that's not really the case 259 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,717 because you are in this constant race to 260 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:18,317 not just barely beat your adversary, but to massively overpower them. To try and 261 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,077 make it where you know, the goal is is 262 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,677 to just barely win a conflict on the 263 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,997 margins. It is to fight unfair, to have 264 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,197 overwhelming threat of violence underpinning whatever diplomatic 265 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,197 overtures or negotiations you have. And and and everyone was always pushing the 266 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:37,037 limits. So, if if if I if I have a jet 267 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,877 that has a reliable 5% every time edge 268 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,557 over the enemy, that's worth paying a 269 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,437 lot of money for, right? Like I I I and 270 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,677 and I I I think the the the loss in performance you would see 271 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:54,157 through lack of specialization probably makes it non-viable. Like to to to go to 272 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,357 the to the extreme like a you know, I build robot submarines and those have a 273 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,197 specialized form that needs to dive to 6,000 m depth and and sit on the bottom 274 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,037 of the ocean for months at a time. And then I have other stuff that's on the 275 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,757 surface and and you know, they're robotic systems that you know, roll up a 276 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,837 hill and and they loiter and then I have other things that are you know, aerial 277 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,837 vehicles that are doing very specialized tasks and I just can't imagine a 278 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,597 convergence that would make sense. 279 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,837 Unless you're telling me that we're going to get some cool like like 280 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,717 humanoids that have like you know, on-board fusion reactors and they can 281 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,757 dive to 6,000 ft depth. >> So, Palmer, why aren't why aren't you 282 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,997 building those? I mean, if anybody, you should >> [laughter] 283 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,597 >> Look, you could potentially build such a thing, but then very quickly you realize 284 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,957 that specialization would allow you to build something even better. You say, 285 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,237 "Okay, I've built something that can dive to the bottom of the ocean and fly 286 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,917 to the moon." Man, it could get to the moon a lot faster if it didn't have to 287 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,237 also dive to the bottom of the ocean. 288 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,357 So, I think I think defense is going to be this one where kind of like a 289 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,197 you know, you you look at for example the difference between cars where 290 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,397 everything has shared platforms within a manufacturer you know, manufacturer and 291 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,597 they also share a lot of the same standards 292 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,437 and the interfaces. I think that you compare that with like 293 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,597 a motorsport where it's all completely different and it's continuously pushing 294 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,517 forward. I I think the defense side is probably always going to be this this 295 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,117 weird branch of exotic highly specialized robotic systems. 296 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,077 >> You know, Palmer, I expected if anybody was going to be building humanoid 297 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:22,637 robots, it would be you. >> No, no, no. 298 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,517 >> just you you said you said absolutely not. 299 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,477 >> I've I've opted out because um I because 300 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,637 I believe in them. If I didn't believe that humanoid robotics had such a 301 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,197 powerful future, then I would probably build them. But I want Anduril to build 302 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,317 things that wouldn't exist otherwise. 303 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,880 That's what I generally want to do. 304 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,957 Correct. All the other people are already doing a great job. Like I I I 305 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,677 want to use their robots. >> And and and do things with them. Like I 306 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,037 think humanoids are going to be an incredible general artificial 307 00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:56,357 intelligence interface between AI and remote systems and a lot of legacy 308 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,237 platforms that were designed for a person to you know pull the lever, push 309 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,197 the button, read the screen. Like we're going to be able to take all those and 310 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,917 automate them without replacing them entirely. So, you have a lot of things 311 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,997 like radar systems that cost millions, tens 312 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,277 of millions, even hundreds of millions of dollars. 313 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,037 Uh nobody wants to man them during a hot conflict cuz they're the first thing 314 00:18:16,120 --> 00:18:19,917 that's going to go. But if I can put humanoid robots in them, I've now been 315 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,157 able to automate them without that. So, yeah, I'm not going to build humanoids. 316 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,917 Uh this is also why Anduril is not building like small quadcopter attack 317 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,317 drones. Too many other companies doing a great job. There's a there's a lot of 318 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,357 a lot of areas. And and we're not going to do space launch. Like we do space 319 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,357 products. We have a lot we operate a lot of our own satellites and a lot of our 320 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,677 own sensors in space. Uh but I don't want to be a launch provider. That's for 321 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,597 all the other billionaires to >> Yeah, yeah, let let them handle that. 322 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,157 That's fantastic. Salim, um you know, when you're operating 323 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,597 Anduril Industries, you're uh 324 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,757 decentralizing defense, right? The 325 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,197 Pentagon and ministries of defense globally have been the most centralized 326 00:18:57,280 --> 00:18:59,757 entity in the history of humanity. 327 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:03,557 Uh you're sitting on the edge dealing with that. Uh 328 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,477 you must have a massive immune system problem where people inside the entity 329 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,437 are going, "Nah, we've done that before. 330 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,437 We can do it better." They either try and suck you in or they try and spit you 331 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,357 out. How are you navigating that interface because you're doing it in a 332 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:22,120 way that I've never seen anybody succeed do it. 333 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,037 >> I think that this is a problem that's very, very hard at the beginning. 334 00:19:26,120 --> 00:19:28,447 >> Oh, I said the wrong thing. 335 00:19:28,530 --> 00:19:30,117 >> [laughter] >> Wow. >> No idea what the 336 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,957 >> Well, until someone gets on the intercom and tells us to 337 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:34,597 >> Someone won a million dollars. 338 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:40,600 Congratulations. >> Um what were we talking about? What what what what was it? 339 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,317 Seriously, I knew the intercom was going to come on. 340 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,717 What were we talking about again? 341 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:51,957 >> Centralization of Pentagon versus decentralized government. 342 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,877 >> I'm going to I'm going to keep talking till somebody tells me that I can't. Um 343 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,877 So, we've gotten through this a bit. I think early on there was that concern 344 00:19:59,960 --> 00:20:03,397 that Anduril was not going to be able to get through that. Our Our hardest 345 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,437 problem raising money >> Skippy, would you please shut this down? 346 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,477 >> [laughter] >> I've been through enough of these to to 347 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,437 know how it's going to work. >> There we go. 348 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,477 >> I imagine. >> One of our early problems was that our 349 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,357 investors said, "Palmer, you potential investors." They said, "Look, we believe 350 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,957 that you'll be able to build things that work. We believe you'll be able to build 351 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,037 products that are great, but we don't believe the government is capable of 352 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:27,757 actually purchasing them at scale." Cuz I mean, you talk you talk about 353 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,597 centralization, you know about the 354 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,237 issues. For people who don't, uh until 355 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:35,877 just a few years ago, you had about 80% 356 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,797 of MDAPs, major defense acquisition 357 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,917 programs. So, the basically anything 358 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,877 that that that matters, uh 80% of MDAPs 359 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,197 went to five companies, and that's it. 360 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,637 And I mean, you've seen incredible consolidation, centralization. Anduril 361 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,757 has been successful because we use we're we're we're less of a contractor and 362 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,837 more of a product company. We use our own money to build products, then we 363 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,437 sell them, and we've gotten to the point now where people in government have done 364 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,917 very, very well betting on Anduril, and then miraculously we finish on schedule, 365 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,277 we finish on time, and then the next 366 00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:14,077 program manager says, "I know how I can make my job easy. I just I just give the 367 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:15,917 contract to Anduril." >> Got it. 368 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,917 >> So, it it's got to take guts to enter the defense industry, right? The most 369 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:24,117 incestuous, you know, self-licking ice cream cone on the planet. 370 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:25,037 >> Yeah. 371 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:28,477 >> And and and what insanity, 372 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,637 you know, gave you the balls to do that? 373 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,237 >> The insanity was the reason that I got into it. 374 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,757 Uh the first page of our pitch deck said Anduril will save taxpayers hundreds of 375 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,517 billions of dollars a year by making tens of billions of dollars a year. The 376 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,397 idea being we're not just making products that we're selling, but we are 377 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:51,997 displacing the systems that cost needlessly 10 times what they should. 378 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:58,037 And Yeah, thank you. >> [applause] >> And so, it does seem crazy, but, you 379 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:01,317 know, I don't I I I can't put myself on the 380 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:06,077 same pedestal as him, but one of my mentors and idols growing up and then 381 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,317 also early in my career was John Carmack, the founder of id Software. 382 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,877 >> John is great. >> John is incredible. And for people who 383 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,237 don't know, he's basically the inventor of the modern modern 3D game engine, 384 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,997 first-person shooters, also started a rocket company that competed in the 385 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,477 >> He he was competing in the X Prize, and I I remember 386 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:27,157 >> And he was one of the, if not the only one to be doing reusable 387 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,277 >> Exactly, he was doing vertical takeoff, vertical landing. 388 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:31,277 >> else was even trying to do. He did it. 389 00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,957 >> I remember there's this this name on the side of his vehicles, Armadillo 390 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,517 Aerospace. How do you pronounce that thing? I 391 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:37,997 thought you'd only know. That's right. 392 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,117 He was using So, yeah, he was using uh he was using uh he was building his own 393 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,157 sensor fusion algorithms. He was processing them on modern, you know, or 394 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,637 on you know, commercial-style graphics 395 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:50,197 card hardware using his game programming 396 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,397 experience. Anyway, the point is it was 397 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,477 called Armadillo Aerospace. That's right. And the thing and yeah, they were 398 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:01,037 doing vertical takeoff and landing long before SpaceX was 399 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:03,557 was was was I mean, doing anything. 400 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,037 >> Yeah. No, before it existed, for sure. 401 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,357 >> And but anyway, the the point is he he 402 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,677 I I he ended up becoming the CTO of 403 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,837 Oculus VR. I managed to poach him away 404 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:18,517 from Id, but after he left, he went to 405 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,957 work on AI actually even before I did. 406 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:23,557 And so he started he started his own 407 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,477 company to work on on on AGI. And and I said why why are you why are you 408 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,517 doing this? >> You know, that the odds of you succeeding and to be clear, I still 409 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,317 believe AI was going somewhere, but he said, "I'm going to start a company 410 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,077 that's just going all in on the end state. Like I'm not trying to 411 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,677 incrementally get there. It's just all in on AGI." And the point that he made 412 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,477 was, "Palmer, even if I've got a 1% chance of succeeding, which maybe is an 413 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,557 overestimation, but suppose I have a 1% 414 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:55,080 chance of succeeding, and suppose that I could pull it off, 415 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,877 the the risk-adjusted 416 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,997 outcome kind of demands that I do it. 417 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,757 And that was how I felt about defense. 418 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,477 If there was a 1% chance that I could 419 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,837 help solve this problem, then it was one that would be massively impactful to 420 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,597 work on versus, let's say, starting another gaming company, getting into 421 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,317 space launch, you know, building a car company, which 422 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,357 it it all of the billionaires, they end up doing the same thing. You don't have 423 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,797 enough people getting into defense or or 424 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:25,957 putting on a bat suit. It's just it's 425 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,957 just cars and rockets and and they just go in circles like that for for for 426 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,997 >> So, you know, when I interviewed you on the on the Moonshots podcast last time, 427 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,597 you mentioned that you're part of a billionaire's boys club chat. 428 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:39,637 >> Yeah, yeah. >> [clears throat] >> Oh, yeah. 429 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,997 >> Are they working on anything worthwhile at this point? I mean, I gave I gave 430 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,077 them for saying like, "God, you got all this capital. Solve the world's 431 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,557 biggest problems." >> I think the B boys are doing a lot 432 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,797 better now than we were a few years ago. 433 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,277 >> Okay. >> Um >> They're they're stepping up. 434 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:56,237 >> And and for people you think we're talking about is I I was giving a lot of 435 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,917 people a hard time, especially some retired B boys. And uh I was telling 436 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:01,837 them what are you what are you doing? 437 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,917 You have cuz money is one of the resources they have. But one of the 438 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,357 resources people don't talk about, especially for the retired B boys, is 439 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,397 that they have credibility, which would allow them to gather people around them, 440 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,757 teams around them, and capital. Like they could and it's just sitting there 441 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,197 underutilized if they're doing nothing. 442 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,597 They have the credibility in that people trust them as a leader to be able to 443 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,397 lead an organization like that. 444 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,517 They could have the same ideas and the same words as somebody who's equally 445 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,637 smart or smarter and they'll still do better for that. And so my point to them 446 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,597 is you have a responsibility not only as someone who's who's got a lot of capital 447 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,877 yourself, but who's got this underutilized resource of the ability to 448 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,557 do more. If if you're not doing that, then are 449 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,637 you really like what are you even doing? 450 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,157 Anyone can sit on a boat. Few people can start another multi-billion dollar 451 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,907 company that does something that matters. 452 00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:57,957 >> [applause] >> And the good news is most of them I 453 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,717 think I I I think a lot of people have have gotten the itch to to solve some of 454 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,597 these problems that are out there. 455 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,640 Nihilism is is is on is on the down. 456 00:26:10,050 --> 00:26:11,997 >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that's an interesting point. 457 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,557 Although Like I said, I think most of the B boys 458 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,757 I think they seem like they keep pretty busy. 459 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,037 I don't I don't I don't have a problem with B boys who don't do enough. Like to 460 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:25,637 some people they mis- mistake what I what I say like oh Palmer wants other 461 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,317 billionaires to work on defense or energy or or biology. 462 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,157 You like my point is not that people need to distract themselves by doing more 463 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,397 things. A lot of people can only do one thing. 464 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,197 You know, and that was what I did for a long time. 465 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,157 It's what I hate is the people who are not doing anything. That's that that is 466 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,317 that is like a repulsive to me. 467 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,277 >> So maybe message to the audience, you get to join the B boys slack group or 468 00:26:50,360 --> 00:26:53,957 whatever this is, Telegram, if you're doing something new 469 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,517 and differentiated. >> The group actually got shut down and uh 470 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,477 we've been we've been talking about now that we need to do a B boys 2.0. 471 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,397 Um but I think I think people post >> some B girls as well. 472 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,477 >> I think people posted the wrong memes a few too many times. 473 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,637 >> Boom. >> I I look uh there there was there was a 474 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,357 time where there were no there were no B girls and then there was this Business 475 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,317 Insider article uh whining about it and uh the the reality is like it's just 476 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,917 like me and some guys. >> Like you know, it's not like there's 477 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,327 this isn't like the Illuminati conference. 478 00:27:23,410 --> 00:27:25,157 >> [laughter] >> You know, it's like they're they're like 479 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,797 oh, there's a group and you know, but no women have been invited. I'm like I it's 480 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,117 not that no women have been invited. 481 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,357 It's just like me and some some of my boys. But >> [laughter] 482 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,197 >> uh but actually there there was a there was a there was a there was a girl in it 483 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,437 by the end. So, uh we need Yeah, we need to we need to restart that. We need to 484 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,397 restart that group. >> So, you're in Facebook commercials now. 485 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,117 >> Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, so so the new Meta VR is out, uh 486 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,077 how does it compare against your vision of what you wanted to achieve? Is it Yeah. 487 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,677 >> Look, it does a lot of the things that uh it's not exactly what I would make 488 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:01,437 were I the guy who's waving the magic wand and and and and you got lots of 489 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,557 magic wands spinning the CAD, but uh 490 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,597 look, the new Meta VR glasses are a lot closer in a lot of ways. Uh so, I've 491 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,557 long been a believer that you need to decouple the compute and the battery 492 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,357 from the head. You should it should not be that and and I'm not even saying the 493 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,837 head totally, it's more of the front. 494 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,917 So, uh before Oculus Quest. So, Oculus Quest was the last thing that I 495 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,397 worked on before they fired me. And uh 496 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,637 the prototypes at the time were a prototype series code named Santa Cruz 497 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,077 and uh we were sure actually showing that publicly before they fired me. And 498 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,957 uh Santa Cruz had the battery and compute on the back of the head and then 499 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,597 the light, you know, the part on the soft tissue on the front of your head 500 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,157 was kept as light as possible. And then at some point after they got rid of me, 501 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,757 they they jammed it all into one big giant lump in the front and they ruined 502 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,557 the ergonomics. They forgot why you need a top strap. Uh, 503 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,557 but you know, it it it it bothers >> Serve them right. 504 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,037 >> It bothers me most Look, it bothers me 505 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,957 mostly at this point because uh 506 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,677 the Oculus Rift CV1, which was the first 507 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,317 modern consumer VR headset, it got the 508 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,237 ergonomics more or less perfect in 2016 509 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,597 and you know, we we were showing it off 510 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,957 in 2015 and literally nobody has done as 511 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,797 good of as it and it's been over a 512 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,437 decade. Every single person screws it 513 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,117 up, even Apple. And I I I just I don't I 514 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,637 can't comprehend it. How how could it be 515 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,317 that the ergonomic design led by a 516 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,197 19-year-old kid with no experience is 517 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,357 better than anything that anyone has 518 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,437 come up with since. Anyway, the new Meta VR glasses are the closest thing. 519 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:41,797 And they're very lightweight. They've off-boarded the computer. They've 520 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,677 off-boarded the batteries. They have really high-quality pass-through. 521 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,357 Um they they It has a feature that I invented for CV1 called Transformo 522 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,877 Fabric, which they do not call it. 523 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,317 The basically using uh fabric uh a a a 524 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,757 a soft flexible fab black black light-absorbing matte fabric to one 525 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,437 minimize reflections, but two uh basically seal the cavity between and 526 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,197 around the lenses. That means that you can move them uh and the fabric just 527 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,397 stretches to meet where the lenses are for different interpupillary distances 528 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,997 rather than having like sliding mechanical interfaces and plastic and 529 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,717 they brought Transformo Fabric back for the first time since my my era. So, I'm 530 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,677 I'm I'm a huge fan and uh you know, it's it's a third of the price of Apple's 531 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,597 product and uh somewhat higher higher 532 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:32,237 pixel density. I I think that's pretty extraordinary. Oh, and and and 1/8 the 533 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:36,357 weight. >> Yeah. Amazing. >> Pretty amazing. Pretty good. 534 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:37,917 >> Let's close on Let's close on this. 535 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:43,037 We've got, you know, 1,500 entrepreneurs, moonshot visionaries, and 536 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,037 tens of thousands watching on the live stream. 537 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,797 Uh what's your advice? 538 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,917 What, you know, what did you learn in high school that made you succeed at the 539 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,277 speed you did? We were talking about this on the plane right back. 540 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,677 >> I I was really lucky to uh I guess maybe 541 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,317 not lucky. I did it. Uh but >> Well, you are you are lucky. 542 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:05,997 >> That's right. >> I am [laughter] lucky. 543 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,957 >> It's in the name. >> I started an online community called 544 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,437 ModRetro when I was 14 or 15. Uh it was 545 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,957 an internet forum for people who were 546 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,477 modifying vintage game consoles and computers, building handheld units, 547 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,877 improving the performance in a variety of ways. We had a few thousand active 548 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,197 members. And uh and a whole team of volunteer 549 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,157 moderators and administrators with with me me at me at the top of it for some 550 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:35,557 reason. And uh I learned a lot of valuable lessons about how you can build an 551 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,917 organization, how you market an organization, how you get people to 552 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:44,317 believe in what you're doing. I learned a lot about dealing with the types of 553 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,317 problems you deal with when you're running a company, you know. 554 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,717 >> With humans. >> Well, I mean, you you have you have two 555 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,397 It's a tale as old as time. You've got two people. 556 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,877 They're both brilliant. They're both very good at what they do. 557 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,757 And they hate each other. And they 558 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:02,037 disagree over something. You need to somehow mediate the conflict or separate 559 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,957 them in a way that allows you to get the value that that allows both of them to 560 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,957 contribute value to the greater project, uh but not have them hate you, not have 561 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:15,477 them lose faith in the broader thing, but also you not not kill each other. 562 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,357 Sometimes that means you need to reconcile things between the two. 563 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,997 Sometimes it means that you need to put one guy over here and one guy over here. 564 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,437 And sometimes you need to make sure that they don't know that that's what you're 565 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,837 doing as you do it. That's just [laughter] I'm not saying that's the key 566 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:33,397 to running a successful business is the management of the two problem, but it's 567 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,427 Yeah, and then and once you make it a three-body problem, now I'm out. 568 00:32:36,510 --> 00:32:39,357 >> [laughter] >> But uh but but it's it's that and a 569 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,437 hundred things like it that I learned 570 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,557 running Mod Retro that I was able to take into starting Oculus, to carry 571 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,477 forward into what I'm doing in my other companies. And uh that that's why I'm a 572 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,717 I'm a strong believer that the the the kids should should should get a job. And 573 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,637 I I I also had a job starting when I was 14, so I learned how the real world 574 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,837 works, too. But I I So, I'm a huge fan of people doing things at a scale that's 575 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,317 larger than just themselves. In other words, 576 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,517 don't just do a project, do a project 577 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,717 with someone else. Do a project with 578 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:14,557 other people. Build in the open, learn the the the the good parts of that, the 579 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,957 bad parts of that. It it it's been extremely useful to me. And 580 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:19,877 >> Has building changed in the age of AI? 581 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,957 What advice do you have? Again, you know, we've been saying on the pod for a 582 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:27,797 while now, you know, forget about grad school, you know, even college is a is a 583 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:29,477 maybe. You didn't go to college. You 584 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,237 know, and high schoolers should what? 585 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,437 Find a a purpose they care about and use 586 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,560 AI to go and code it. What's your your closing advice here on that? 587 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,837 >> You know, one of the reasons I have not 588 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,597 been as upset as some people about uh 589 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,407 Now, it's funny. There's something on the screen. It's like it's to not talk about 590 00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:54,357 >> [laughter] >> Just wanted to make sure you saw that. 591 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,757 >> I I I did. We're not going to talk about Don't think about it. All right, 592 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,607 company. All right, great. Great. 593 00:33:59,690 --> 00:34:03,517 >> [laughter] >> The uh There's the There's a lot of people who 594 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,117 who who love their craft and they love 595 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,997 what they do. And uh and and they are 596 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:11,157 rightfully mourning uh the end of, for 597 00:34:11,240 --> 00:34:15,397 example, coding things by hand top to bottom, start to finish as anything but 598 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,717 like a craft endeavor. Um and and I and I understand that. It's it's the same 599 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,317 way that a lot of artists felt when the camera was invented. They They whined 600 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,557 and complained about how it ruined art and it made it so that anybody could 601 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,797 push a button. And and you know, the these things are always painful for the 602 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:31,997 people who are masters of their craft. 603 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,557 Um I already got screwed in that way a long time ago. When you're a founder, 604 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,237 you don't get to actually work in any of the tech anyway. All the other people 605 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,037 get to have all the fun. And so, you know, I I like electrical engineering. I 606 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,037 like optical engineering. I like mechanical engineering. I don't get to 607 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,557 do any of it cuz the job of a founder is to 608 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,677 hire people to to displace them. And and 609 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,917 and to do what they thought they could do or what they like they do like doing 610 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,637 better. The job, I've said many times to people, if you want to work on 611 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:02,997 technology work for somebody else. If you want to 612 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,957 work on nonstop start a company. 613 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,477 And so and so what I would say to people is AI doesn't actually change the 614 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,237 part of the job very much. You're still on the hook legally. You're 615 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,357 still on the hook for all the interpersonal stuff. And you could you 616 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:21,357 you can delegate some of it, but at the end of the day it's your call, it's your 617 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,677 decision. It's the same thing for fundraising. It's the same thing for 618 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,637 general product architecture. And when people make the wrong decisions, it's 619 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:31,037 your choice as to when you need to overrule them, 620 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,317 override them, replace them. I don't see 621 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:36,397 AI replacing that part of it anytime 622 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,637 soon. Not because it couldn't, but because the gains everywhere else are so 623 00:35:40,720 --> 00:35:45,477 much larger that I think we've got a good 10 years of speed running 624 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,597 all of the other parts of the business before they before they come to that. 625 00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,237 So, look, AI changes a lot, but I I I'm telling you there's a lot of people you 626 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,837 are in for a rude awakening if you are like a hobbyist coder or a hobbyist 627 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,117 engineer and you think you're going to start a company and you think you're 628 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,237 going to be doing all that stuff? No, 629 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,117 you're going to learn a hard lesson. It 630 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,437 Being a founder was was always like AI took your job. It's just that other 631 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,917 people took it. >> Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, let's give it up 632 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,960 for Palmer Luckey. 633 00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:21,880 >> [music]