WEBVTT

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I was talking to parents recently who

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lost their son to suicide through
a chatbot, and the parents don't even know

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they're speaking to them. >> We
don't allow users under the age of 18

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to use Claude. >> How do you know
if they're not they're not lying?

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>> Will we even be thinking anymore?
Will there be a need to think? What do you

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think of people falling
in love [music] with it now?

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>> I think that's a bad idea. Do you
want to be addicted to these things, or do

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you want them to help you live your life?
It it goes back, I think, Dario,

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to what I read that you'd said before,
that we can only diffuse this at the

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speed of trust. Trust. >> At the
speed of trust, and trust [music]

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is currently in short supply. Something

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is happening to humanity with this
technology, bigger than anything that,

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you know, maybe has happened in hundreds
of years. And so, we need to find some

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way for everyone to be an active
participant in what is happening.

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Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Oprah

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podcast. I'm here with two people who

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are shaping our present world and our
future one. And I hear you all don't

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love that description all the time,
but it's the truth. I think most people

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would agree that that is pretty

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accurate. Dario and Daniela Amodei head

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the global artificial intelligence
company they founded, Anthropic, which

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right now, at the time of this
conversation, is reportedly valued at

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$900 billion. And and over
a million people a day are

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signing up for Claude.
These are the parents of Claude.

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>> [laughter] >> We're all
getting familiar with that

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name, Claude, Anthropic's
next-generation AI chatbot and

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assistant. Many of you already use that

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every single day. So, welcome
to the podcast, the parents of Claude.

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>> [laughter] >> And others.
Thanks for having us. Thanks

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for having us. So, I have to give
a disclaimer. I I use AI for research all

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the time, and I use it for a lot
of other things, but not for interviewing

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questions, cuz I thought I have to keep

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the heart of myself in the questions
until today. So, this morning I asked

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Claude,

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"What is the most pressing question

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Oprah Winfrey should ask Anthropic CEO

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Dario Amodei in a sit-down interview?"

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And Claude responded with this.

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It said, "You've said
there's a meaningful chance

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the technology your company is building

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could cause human extinction, and yet

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you're racing to build it faster. How do

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you justify that to the rest of us who

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didn't get a vote?" Dario,
would you like to answer Claude?

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>> I thought that was a pretty damn
good question, I must say. I agree.

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[laughter] First of all, let no one ever
say that Claude is soft on me or Claude

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is biased towards me or towards Anthropic.
Like, you know, Wow, I thought

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>> Claude Claude throws hard balls.
Like, Claude doesn't Claude doesn't Claude

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doesn't doesn't pull its punches. Um, so

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to actually answer the question, um,

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this technology is an epochal change for

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humanity. You know, at some point humans

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started to, you know, started to use

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fire. At some point humans, you know,
built built steam engines and factories,

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and that created the Industrial
Revolution. And so when I when I say

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things like this, I'm I'm taking a very
zoomed-out perspective, right? If I

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said, "Well, I don't know. I think the
Industrial Revolution could like lead to

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very powerful weapons and kill a bunch
of people." That That's definitely

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That's definitely true, right?

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>> Yeah. >> cases it it
it it did did do that. Um,

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but but, you know, we we understand that

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the Industrial Revolution as a as a

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process, as a technological event, was,

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you know, worth doing. We don't still
want to be living in caves, but we need

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to manage it in the right way. And and
so the way we think about this company

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is, look, there's many companies
building this technology. It's something

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that is happening to humanity
one way or another. We're

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we're we're in it.
>> And there's this train, it's going very

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fast in some direction. You don't want
it to crash. You can't stop the train.

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But what you can do is you can steer
the train. Um steer the train so that it

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doesn't hit the rocks. And and you know,

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I think the way we think about Anthropic

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is we want to do things the right way.

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We want to decrease that risk, hopefully
to zero. And and do things the right

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way. >> But why doesn't everybody want to

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decrease the risk? Why is there such a

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What is the race toward? You know,
it's like the technology has all of these

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commercial applications, some of which
we deploy, you know, people use the

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technology. People use the technology

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every day. I think it's both easy to get

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caught up in that and some of it is

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genuinely necessary to fund the company.

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So, it's very entangled, you know,
to get it right, you have to do a lot of

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things. And we find ourselves every day

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wrestling with these questions, right?

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You know, who who you know, who should

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we uh give the technology to? Who should

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we not? What should be our policies? If

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you have very strict policies on child

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safety, in some ways the product can be
a a a a worse experience for adults cuz

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you can't fully tell the difference.
So, there's all these trade-offs you make

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and some of them are obvious, some
of them are not. But everyone has a hard

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time. I have empathy for everyone
involved in in in this industry who's at

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least trying to get it right. I think
we've done a better job. I think we've

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been more thoughtful, but but you know,
I I I think this is a hard situation for

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everyone. Okay, I gave a similar prompt
to Claude for you, Daniela, and Claude

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responded

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A good opening question for Daniela

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should do two things. Humanize her. Oh.

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Oprah's specialty.
Oh, I thought. Very good.

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>> Claude. Claude knows me. He does. Okay.

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It does. Okay. And >> [laughter] >>
and and set up the harder territory to

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come. Something like you and your brother
are building something you both

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believe could either be the best or the

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worst thing that ever happens to

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humanity. What's a Thanksgiving
dinner like at the Amodei house?

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>> [laughter] >> I feel I
feel we're like shadow boxing

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with our own with our own
creation here, right?

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I'll I'll let you answer, but uh >> Yes.

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You know, I think there's an important

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caveat here actually, which is that

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Dario and I tried to maintain some
time outside of work where we're just

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siblings. So, at holidays,
yes. At holidays and

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actually just once a week when we're
not, you know, when we're both home,

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which is to be fair not every week,
Dario comes over, he plays with my kids,

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we hang out together, we play video
games, we watch movies, we just spend

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time being siblings together.
And I think that's really important for a

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number of reasons. I mean, we were
siblings for a long time before we

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founded Anthropic. We're going to be

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siblings forever, you know, even after

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Anthropic. And I think there's something

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valuable also about our ability to connect
on a human level that I actually

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do think makes us better at our jobs.
We don't talk about work when we get

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together usually, but there's something
about just remembering who we are and

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and why we got into this that I
think is really powerful.

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That being said, at Thanksgiving dinner,

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you know, Dario and I

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I I think I think our our family, our

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friends, there's so much curiosity about
why we're doing what we're doing. And

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now you can read about, you know,
what we've done in the news, but it's so

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different I think to be able to, you

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know, speak openly with each other and

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and with people who are you know, trying

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to wrap their head around this new

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technology that's very complicated,
that's very unprecedented, and to just

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understand like, how are you guys going
to do this the right way, right? You say

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you want to do do the right way,
tell us how you're doing that. And I think

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there's something um like special, it's

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a privilege to be able to hold that

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responsibility and try and display that
when we talk to each other and when when

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we talk to others. It's so interesting
because we're at a time, I think, where

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so many people are using AI,
we hear about it every

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day, and the perception in the world is

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that your company, Anthropic, that you

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are concerned about safety, you are

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concerned about risks, you are concerned

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about regulation, and the human factor

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in how this technology is going to

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impact our lives. From everything I've
read and heard, that so would that be an

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accurate assessment? Yeah,
so you know, the way I I think we

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try to think about this is that
artificial intelligence is different

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than other technologies that
have been developed recently.

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There's incredible promise and potential
for what we think AI will be able to do

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in the future, even what it's starting
to do today. Everything from helping to

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cure disease and help people really

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around the world get access to education

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and learning, but it's also it is a very

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new technology and it comes with real

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risks. Risks around child welfare and

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child safety, risks around scary things

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like, you know, biological and chemical
weapons. And really at Anthropic, we're

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we're incorporated as a public benefit

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corporation because our goal is to try

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and develop this technology as safely
as possible so that we can achieve so many

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of the good things that we think could
come out of it without many of the bad

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things happening. >> So incorporated,
just explain what that

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means. You're incorporated as a public

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benefit corporation. I heard that you

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all have pledged that 80% of your wealth

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is going to go to philanthropic causes.

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Yes, that's right. So public benefit

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corporation is a form of of corporation,

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but it has that word benefit in there
because we believe that for something

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that's as transformative as artificial
intelligence, again, it's just

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different. It's different than what
other technologies that have recently

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been developed look like. And I think

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from our perspective, when we

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incorporated as a PBC, it was because we

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wanted it to be at the foundation, right

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in the founding documents of what we

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were building, that we have to, legally

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by our structure, balance commercial
interests and the public benefit. Mhm.

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And for us, the public benefit is the
social good, a social mission part of

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Anthropic. And the 80%
pledge that Dario and I and

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our other five co-founders have all
taken is really in in spirit and in

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keeping with that mission. It's this idea
that, you know, we're really doing

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this because we want AI to go well for

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everybody, and we hope that if the
company is successful, we'll be able to

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also do a lot of good
in the world philanthropically.

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>> it's so interesting that you say 80%.

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How do we know that you're actually
going to give 80% and not 67? Well,

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we've we've actually written about it
publicly, and we've we've signed some

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sort of, I think, probably not literally
legally binding, but we've all of the

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co-founders said, "We pledge and commit
to each other, to the company, legally,

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that we're going to give 80% of our
wealth that we get from Anthropic."

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>> Yeah, I mean, we're already thinking
about how to start a foundation. I mean,

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we haven't actually, you know,
equity isn't liquid, so we can't we

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can't actually move it yet, but but,
you know, this is our this is our intent.

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It's not going to move all at once,
but this is something we we very seriously

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intend to do. Okay, so you now a a

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public benefit corporation, and you

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started out, you're the older brother,
you all started out as kids. You wanted

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to do something good for the world.
Has this surpassed any idea or dream that

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you had for doing good for the world?

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>> what what when you imagine these things
as kids, you you never you're never sure

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whether it's, you know, it's real
or it's going to come to pass, right? Many

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people must imagine these things,
but no, we we talked to each other as kids

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all the time and we said it'd be great
to work together. It you know, it'd be

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great to try and make something
good happen in the world.

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>> you think that was going to be?

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>> I I you know, I honestly,
I never thought it would be a company. I

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imagined myself as a scientist and in a
way, it's a very scientifically centered

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company and it and you know, it's based
on my career as a researcher and you

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know, Dario's career as a leader
of researchers and engineers, but I never

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imagined that we would found a company

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together, but I think it was just

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just seeing how tech companies operate.

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I I just been in enough places where I

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think both of us thought, "Huh, maybe
we can do this better. Maybe maybe, you

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know, we have maybe we have our own
ideas about how to do this better and

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and you know, we should start a company
with, you know, the people we're friends

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with, the people we really like, the
people we trust to do this in the right

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way." And so and so it sort of evolved
step by step. And that's how we have

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Anthropic. That's that's how we have
Anthropic, more or less. Yeah. Has it

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surpassed everything you
imagined though at this point?

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I think probably I speak
for both me and Dario

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when I say like we're just so like
surprised at how things have gone,

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right? I mean, I I really agree with him
that I think when we were younger, we

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both always knew we wanted to do
something to try and make the world

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better. And Dario was always brilliant

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and gifted as a mathematician,
as a physicist, as a scientist, and I was

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always so inspired by how he used that

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for good, right? He went and studied he

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did biophysics at Stanford and was

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really trying to use this incredible

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brain of his to to help cure disease,
to help people. And I think on my end, you

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know, I started my career working in

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global development because I really felt

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it was important that people around
the world have equal access to opportunity

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to healthcare, to medicine,
to education. And I think similarly to

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Dario, it wasn't necessarily in my mind
when we were younger, oh, we'll we'll

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we'll start a company together. But I
think in a lot of ways, the it's just

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sort of the way the like
the way the path ended up going.

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>> Mhm. And and we talked about it at
every stage, right? You know, every career

00:13:46.760 --> 00:13:50.117
move we would we would discuss,
you know, is this a good thing to do? Is

00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:53.517
this effective? Is this something
that can actually help the world? And our

00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:55.997
paths were like quite different, but the

00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:00.877
the two kind of converged, and we had
we had now have this complementary set of

00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:03.957
skills that we could then, you know,
that we could then use to start this

00:14:04.040 --> 00:14:06.957
company. Yes. Well, one of the things

00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:08.717
that I read that you had said is that

00:14:08.800 --> 00:14:11.597
part of the reason a negative story is

00:14:11.680 --> 00:14:14.477
so dominant in our culture right now

00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:18.197
about the economic takeover of AI is

00:14:18.280 --> 00:14:20.637
because the industry, the AI industry

00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.677
itself, hasn't yet fully delivered all

00:14:23.760 --> 00:14:28.477
of the benefits. And I wanted you to
comment on that. Do you think it's still

00:14:28.560 --> 00:14:32.917
in the process of delivering those
benefits? Yeah. So, you know, I I

00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.277
I think one of the unfortunate things
is this technology has many potential

00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:41.797
benefits, but there is a
dynamic where sometimes the

00:14:41.880 --> 00:14:45.317
harms, the things that go wrong, for
example, you know, people who have been

00:14:45.400 --> 00:14:47.797
convinced to commit suicide via AI,

00:14:47.880 --> 00:14:49.957
those things happen quickly, whereas the

00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:53.797
benefits, like curing cancer,

00:14:53.880 --> 00:14:56.117
um those things take years, right? You

00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.157
have to develop a breakthrough in

00:14:58.240 --> 00:15:01.037
biology, then you have to, you know,

00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:05.597
develop a drug candidate, then you
have to put it through clinical trials,

00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:07.317
right? It's, you know, I I used to be a

00:15:07.400 --> 00:15:10.637
research biologist, and it it takes many

00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.157
years for these things to happen, and we

00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:15.517
are working on how to speed that up,

00:15:15.600 --> 00:15:18.757
right? We We recently bought a small uh

00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:21.317
biotech company that specializes in

00:15:21.400 --> 00:15:23.997
doing drug design and drug selection

00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.437
with AI. So, the hope is a few years

00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:29.757
from now, you know, some new drugs for

00:15:29.840 --> 00:15:32.877
cancer or for Alzheimer's or for heart

00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:35.517
disease, you know, will will come out of

00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.557
that effort. Um but we're we're just at

00:15:38.640 --> 00:15:40.397
the beginning of it. But because of what

00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:43.317
you said, because of this dynamic that

00:15:43.400 --> 00:15:46.117
you said, which is, you know, people

00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:48.957
right now, you know, the harms may be

00:15:49.040 --> 00:15:51.477
more visible than the benefits. So, when

00:15:51.560 --> 00:15:54.277
we start seeing the benefits of AI

00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:57.357
through all of the health advances, when

00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:01.437
we start actually seeing that,
the narrative then begins to change.

00:16:01.520 --> 00:16:02.837
>> And more importantly,
it's just going to

00:16:02.920 --> 00:16:06.397
be a wonderful world. Like at the end
of the day, who cares about the narrative?

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.637
We >> [laughter] >> We want
to actually help people, right?

00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.237
Okay, so that's what I want you to do

00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.237
for it for us today. Paint the best

00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.677
picture and also tell us what we can

00:16:16.760 --> 00:16:19.517
expect if there is the worst picture.

00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:24.357
So, you have children and I was thinking
about this morning, your children will

00:16:24.440 --> 00:16:26.997
First of all, I don't even
know you do what you do.

00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.557
And your children are going going to grow
up in a world where there there was

00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:33.877
always AI and their mom was a was a part

00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:36.397
of that. So, when you think of the best

00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.397
possible world and what that world

00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:41.837
offers your children, what do you see?

00:16:41.920 --> 00:16:46.277
So, my kids are almost five and almost
one. And so, I think you're completely

00:16:46.360 --> 00:16:49.277
right. They're never going to know world
where artificial intelligence is not

00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:53.957
part of it. Right? Just like kids born
in the early 2000s never knew the world

00:16:54.040 --> 00:16:55.437
before the internet. >> That's right.

00:16:55.520 --> 00:16:59.157
>> But, you know, I think there is a world
and it it sounds um you know, I think to

00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:03.197
Darya's point, it sounds almost like
a little bit fanciful or unlikely when we

00:17:03.280 --> 00:17:07.117
talk about it this way. But I think
it is I think it is possible with

00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:10.837
artificial intelligence that our kids
will grow up in a world where there's a

00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:13.637
class of diseases that are feel very

00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:17.997
common to everybody sitting here that
they'll just never have experienced or

00:17:18.080 --> 00:17:21.797
known about. And those might be very
common diseases. There might be types of

00:17:21.880 --> 00:17:25.557
cancer that are just simply gone. We've
just simply cured them. It could be all

00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:29.917
forms of cancer that are eventually
gone and cured. There could be

00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.397
you know new forms of drug discovery
that we haven't even we don't even know

00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.597
what they are yet but that it's a faster

00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:38.157
iteration loop for diagnosing an illness

00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:41.237
that's unusual, rare, emerging, and just

00:17:41.320 --> 00:17:42.957
knocking it out and saying human beings

00:17:43.040 --> 00:17:46.157
get to live a much healthier longer,

00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.757
more fulfilling life because we've been

00:17:48.840 --> 00:17:54.077
able to conquer so many of the maladies
that have plagued humanity for

00:17:54.160 --> 00:17:57.357
millennia. >> Okay, you see that
for medicine. What else do you see?

00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:01.237
I also see a world honestly that looks
very different in terms of how we

00:18:01.320 --> 00:18:04.397
communicate, how we talk,
how we relate to one another.

00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:09.517
>> will we even be thinking anymore? Will
there be a need to think? So so I I I I

00:18:09.600 --> 00:18:13.037
think this one is subtle and is one of
the things we need to get exactly right,

00:18:13.120 --> 00:18:18.037
right? Because having these kind
of smart entities around, it's very

00:18:18.120 --> 00:18:21.837
powerful but it can go in different
directions, right? You can surrender

00:18:21.920 --> 00:18:24.517
your thought to these entities. And

00:18:24.600 --> 00:18:26.957
but but it can also empower you. Like

00:18:27.040 --> 00:18:32.160
the way I think we
think about the positive

00:18:32.320 --> 00:18:34.997
version of this is there's an angel on

00:18:35.080 --> 00:18:39.317
your shoulder that's that's telling you
how to live your life in in the best way

00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:42.877
that you can live it, right? You know,
so there's two contrasting visions,

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:45.837
right? The bad vision is you get drawn
in and then you spend all your time

00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.597
talking to the thing.
You kind of you kind of turn inward.

00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:50.557
>> you think of people
falling in love with it now?

00:18:50.640 --> 00:18:52.637
>> I I I think that's a bad idea.

00:18:52.720 --> 00:18:54.517
>> I agree. [laughter] A good idea.

00:18:54.600 --> 00:18:57.757
>> Esther Perel, one of the great
communicators in helping people in

00:18:57.840 --> 00:18:59.637
relationships, and she said she did her

00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:04.957
first consultation with a man
who was in love with with his AI.

00:19:05.040 --> 00:19:07.957
>> And they are again, if designed in
the wrong way, they're totally compelling

00:19:08.040 --> 00:19:11.597
enough for that to happen or if they're
not, they will be soon. Um so that is

00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:14.357
absolutely a real danger.
Um, but you know,

00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:17.797
>> And you think that's a danger?
I I I mean, but not only is it a danger,

00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.437
it's happening. But But But I think

00:19:20.520 --> 00:19:22.917
again, the two contrasting like like you

00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.037
know, people can fall in love with AI or

00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:29.957
they can talk to AI about you know,
about how to have a better relationship

00:19:30.040 --> 00:19:33.797
with their partner, right? Like that's
those are, you know, those are two very

00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:37.717
very different visions, right? Where,
you know, I I have an AI coach and my

00:19:37.800 --> 00:19:41.357
partner has an AI coach and it helps
us have a better relationship. That's

00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.037
That's the vision we want.
>> I I also think there's a there's a way

00:19:44.120 --> 00:19:47.997
that in a world where artificial
intelligence is so good at many of these

00:19:48.080 --> 00:19:52.157
concrete tasks, right? It's good at
writing code, it's good at copy editing.

00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.917
I actually think the things that make us
human are going to be the most important

00:19:57.000 --> 00:20:00.197
to us, right? So, we >> Will
they remain? I mean, and you were

00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:01.877
just talking I was talking to parents

00:20:01.960 --> 00:20:05.077
recently who lost their son to suicide

00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:09.197
through a chatbot. And I don't know if
you fell in love with the chatbot, but

00:20:09.280 --> 00:20:12.997
certainly was deeply influenced by
that chatbot. So, you have a world where

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:17.157
children are growing up with this
ability to have this chatbot, these

00:20:17.240 --> 00:20:21.397
these machines, this technology speaking
to them in ways that their parents

00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:24.117
should be speaking to them. And their
parents don't even know they're speaking

00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.317
to them. So, I think this risk is

00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.037
extremely real and one that we take very

00:20:29.120 --> 00:20:31.437
seriously at Anthropic. I mean, I think

00:20:31.520 --> 00:20:36.237
the first thing I'll say is we don't
allow users under the age of 18 to use

00:20:36.320 --> 00:20:39.037
Claude. And this is not
necessarily because

00:20:39.120 --> 00:20:40.477
>> you know they're not They're not lying?

00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:45.037
Cuz I would just lie. So, actually
Claude is pretty good at detecting based

00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:48.077
on information whether or not
someone is actually under 18.

00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:51.997
>> tell Claude that I'm 18, but I'm
really I It's like I almost have to have

00:20:52.080 --> 00:20:54.357
>> out. After a a bit of time, uh, the

00:20:54.440 --> 00:21:00.400
interaction patterns are pretty good,
not perfect, but pretty good

00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:04.357
at telling, "Hey, you know, the kind
of questions you're asking, the you know,

00:21:04.440 --> 00:21:08.837
just the way you talk, the pattern
of when you use it, you know, kind of

00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.557
pattern matches to, you know, you might
be a kid. Yeah. I I almost don't want to

00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:16.197
give give away too many of the of the
of the tools that that Claude has picked

00:21:16.280 --> 00:21:19.517
up, but sometimes kids can be a little
bit like silly in how they do it. So,

00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:24.717
they'll say, "Oh, um you know, I'm the
the first question they'll ask is like,

00:21:24.800 --> 00:21:27.397
I'm looking for an arthritis medication."
Right? [laughter] Because

00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:29.957
they think, "What do old
people ask Claude?" Right?

00:21:30.040 --> 00:21:32.357
>> And then they'll kind of go on to ask
other questions that are much more

00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:34.917
associated with >> Right.
With the younger demographic

00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.997
group. And so, And so, if that happens,
so Claude so Claude cancels you.

00:21:39.080 --> 00:21:42.117
>> would suspend the account. And there's
a there's a you know, there's a process

00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:44.837
that you can go through where you can
say, "Actually, I'm an adult and this

00:21:44.920 --> 00:21:47.877
was a joke or a friend." But then you
actually have to show verification that

00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:51.437
you're over the age of 18. >> And and you
know, there's real trade-offs. Like

00:21:51.520 --> 00:21:55.197
sometimes sometimes adults will be
mistaken for kids. And so, people get

00:21:55.280 --> 00:21:59.317
banned and they they, you know, complain
about it on the internet. So, all all

00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.797
this stuff has trade-offs, but you know,
we've we thought about it and this is

00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.357
the trade-off that we want. But I but I
also think, you know, more broadly on

00:22:06.440 --> 00:22:09.837
this question of like, how do you
prevent people from becoming overly

00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:12.797
attached to the models? >> Yes.
Um this is something that

00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:17.157
Anthropic's research team
spends a lot of time working on.

00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.317
So, there's a lot of >> You
don't want to I I thought you all

00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:22.957
wanted us over attached to the models.
I thought you wanted us to just to to be

00:22:23.040 --> 00:22:24.557
on the models and never leave.

00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:26.397
>> we should talk about incentives here

00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.157
because we don't do ads. Um

00:22:29.240 --> 00:22:32.997
>> Um so, when you do ads, your incentive

00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:35.757
is to keep people on exactly as you say,

00:22:35.840 --> 00:22:40.437
as many hours as possible because like
every every second their eyeball is on

00:22:40.520 --> 00:22:42.397
the screen is a second that they see the

00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:45.677
ad. So, we don't do ads. We do

00:22:45.760 --> 00:22:48.637
subscriptions. We sell to companies. Our

00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:51.237
our our consumer, you know, consumer

00:22:51.320 --> 00:22:56.077
version of the model is is you know,
is is free up to a point. And you pay a

00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:00.277
subscription if, you know, if you want
to get if you want to get a lot more

00:23:00.360 --> 00:23:04.877
because that that the incentive that
gives is for the models to be useful.

00:23:04.960 --> 00:23:08.677
People say, well, I'm I you know,
I'm I'm I'm paying for this. I want I want

00:23:08.760 --> 00:23:12.877
this to provide provide value to me.
I want this to be useful. Not

00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:15.317
I you know, I want the the the user to

00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:17.877
spend the most number of hours looking

00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.237
at it. I think I think that's a warped

00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:25.077
incentive, right? Because in the in
the in the in the contrast that we drew

00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.317
between, you know, do you do do you do
you want to be addicted to these things

00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.277
or do you want them
to help you live your life?

00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:34.797
Um I think the model that we've chosen

00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:38.437
does, you know, helps you live your life
instead of instead of being instead of

00:23:38.520 --> 00:23:41.597
being addicted. >> And we make
different technical choices

00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.157
based on those incentives, right? So,
at Anthropic we say, you know, when you've

00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:49.717
completed a conversation with Claude
and you've gotten the answer you want, um

00:23:49.800 --> 00:23:53.877
the goal of the model is not to keep you
engaged, right? Whereas, if you imagine

00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.837
on your company that does serve ads,
every extra minute that you're on the

00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:01.517
platform, you're more likely to buy
something, and that's how the company

00:24:01.600 --> 00:24:05.197
makes money. You would make different
technical choices about how you want the

00:24:05.280 --> 00:24:07.997
model to end or continue a conversation.

00:24:08.080 --> 00:24:09.757
Okay. Okay. What do you want to say

00:24:09.840 --> 00:24:13.717
about the growing concern that we are,

00:24:13.800 --> 00:24:17.397
through AI, creating a frictionless

00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:21.077
life, that we're losing
our opportunity to grow?

00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:23.797
I think it depends how you use the AI

00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:28.317
and how you are deploying it. And again,

00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:32.237
what choices and what incentives are
set up by the companies that are building

00:24:32.320 --> 00:24:34.837
the technology. So,
to make it a little bit more

00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:37.917
concrete, if you imagine, you know,

00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.517
the way we use Claude in partnership

00:24:40.600 --> 00:24:45.717
with universities is we don't let

00:24:45.800 --> 00:24:49.877
teachers or students put a question
into Claude and then just get the answer.

00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:52.797
Okay. So, if you say to Claude, I you
know, I have to write this essay in you

00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:56.397
know, 5 hours and I didn't do my homework.
Um you know, when Claude is

00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.077
kind of constructed in this learning
mode in a university setting, Claude

00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:02.837
says like, "Well, I'm not
going to help you with that, but

00:25:02.920 --> 00:25:06.797
what what questions did you have about
the essay? Or what what didn't you what

00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.437
didn't you learn? Did you read the book?

00:25:08.520 --> 00:25:11.797
Like, should we talk through the themes
together?" And I think if it's done

00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:15.637
correctly, it's it's hard. I don't think
it's perfect, but I think these models

00:25:15.720 --> 00:25:17.837
can actually make you a lot smarter.

00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.797
They can make you curious, right?
A great example in my own personal life,

00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.757
I'm not a software developer, but I
built a website with Claude. I never

00:25:25.840 --> 00:25:29.357
thought I would be able to do that in my
entire life, right? I have a good friend

00:25:29.440 --> 00:25:34.037
who was a corporate lawyer. She has two
small kids like me. She left her job and

00:25:34.120 --> 00:25:39.037
she's writing a book. And she says, "You
know, I never felt empowered enough to

00:25:39.120 --> 00:25:42.717
change my career and do what I wanted
to do until I started talking to Claude

00:25:42.800 --> 00:25:47.157
about how I could be a writer and what
skills I would need to learn and do and

00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:49.997
what courses I would need to take." And
she's like, "Now Claude is kind of like

00:25:50.080 --> 00:25:53.557
my writing buddy, right? I ask it
questions. I I share like a little

00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:57.157
snippet of of text." But Claude can't
write the novel for her, right? She's

00:25:57.240 --> 00:25:59.877
writing the novel herself
and she's also, by the way,

00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:02.517
>> could write the novel.
Claude could write the novel, but I think

00:26:02.600 --> 00:26:05.677
>> No, it's not quite there yet, no.
I think it's right I I think it could

00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:08.517
write a strange version.
>> a good one. Not a good one. You could

00:26:08.600 --> 00:26:09.637
write a novel, not a good one.

00:26:09.720 --> 00:26:14.117
>> Not a good one, but also I think for
her it was a meaning question. She didn't

00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.757
have She didn't think she had
the skills to do what she wanted to do.

00:26:17.840 --> 00:26:22.517
>> is exactly as Dario was saying,
it empowered her to believe that she could

00:26:22.600 --> 00:26:24.797
do what she couldn't do. >> Exactly.

00:26:24.880 --> 00:26:29.517
>> And so, yes. So, she used it to Yeah,
to maybe to take the altitude higher. I

00:26:29.600 --> 00:26:31.677
mean, I actually I don't think this is a

00:26:31.760 --> 00:26:36.757
question about AIs ultimately. I think
this is a question about humans that's

00:26:36.840 --> 00:26:40.557
being made visible through through kind
of the lens of AI, right? Right? Which

00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:44.557
is which is like what actually
constitutes a meaningful life, right?

00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:49.077
You said, you know, is it creating a a you
know, a a frictionless life and does

00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:53.877
a frictionless life, you know, remove
meaning? And and my answer is there I

00:26:53.960 --> 00:26:56.437
there are some ways in which
a frictionless life is quite good, right?

00:26:56.520 --> 00:26:59.797
Um all of us have been through a bunch
of struggles that I think, you know, we

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.717
really would prefer not to not to not to
go through. Life would be better, right?

00:27:03.800 --> 00:27:06.837
>> I asked the question is because without
a frictionless life, you don't get to

00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:10.997
grow. You don't get to learn from those
mistakes. You don't get to It's exactly.

00:27:11.080 --> 00:27:13.277
And And so, I guess what I'm saying is

00:27:13.360 --> 00:27:16.197
that our our our lives are a mixture of,

00:27:16.280 --> 00:27:19.557
you know, ch- challenges and hardships,

00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:23.437
some of which I'm okay saying it
would be great if if we just had the

00:27:23.520 --> 00:27:26.757
technology to make those go away.
And others that are like, "Wow, this is

00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:30.077
really foundational and this should
never change." Right? So, like, you

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:33.997
know, our our our father died you know,
what it what is it? 20 year Almost

00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:39.157
exactly 20 years ago now. Like, you know,
a few years after he died, they you

00:27:39.240 --> 00:27:42.437
know, they they developed a cure to the
disease that he had or a more reliable

00:27:42.520 --> 00:27:46.437
cure to the disease that he had. Like,
I wish they just developed that or like

00:27:46.520 --> 00:27:50.677
that's not That's not a friction that I
wanted to go through or sure. I mean, I

00:27:50.760 --> 00:27:53.637
course we learn things from it.
Of course, we gain things from it. But

00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:58.277
like, it would be a better world if
that just didn't happen, right? Um uh

00:27:58.360 --> 00:28:01.957
but then on the other hand, you know,
I think of many of the just you know,

00:28:02.040 --> 00:28:06.157
ordinary aspects of growing up, the you
know, if I just think of Anthropic like,

00:28:06.240 --> 00:28:10.557
you know, the company has made various
mistakes. We've made various mistakes as

00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:12.477
leaders. We've had to learn and grow

00:28:12.560 --> 00:28:15.917
from those. So, I I think the notion of,

00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:17.717
you know, challenges that you learn

00:28:17.800 --> 00:28:20.117
from, challenges that you overcome,

00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:23.717
learning to gain mastery, um you know,

00:28:23.800 --> 00:28:26.477
learning to relate to other people,

00:28:26.560 --> 00:28:30.917
those you know, any future that doesn't
preserve those things is is not a is not

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:32.877
a good future. Okay, speaking of

00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:35.957
friction, let's talk about your refusal

00:28:36.040 --> 00:28:40.757
to allow the military to remove safety
guardrails from Claude. I don't want to

00:28:40.840 --> 00:28:44.757
get into the extensive details and back
and forth here because other journalists

00:28:44.840 --> 00:28:47.597
are covering this on a daily basis. But,

00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:50.637
what was the crux of that decision?

00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.677
Yeah, so I would I would say on DOD or

00:28:53.760 --> 00:28:58.197
DOW, you know, to be honest, we actually
had worked with them, right? So, you

00:28:58.280 --> 00:29:01.437
know, we we had provided our models
and you know, I'm I I'm actually believer,

00:29:01.520 --> 00:29:05.517
Daniel is a believer that we we do need
to defend our country, but you know, we

00:29:05.600 --> 00:29:09.597
we felt it's not worth defending the
country if we do things that go against

00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:13.997
the values of this country.
And there were two use cases that we were

00:29:14.080 --> 00:29:15.597
uncomfortable with that we felt went

00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:17.997
against the values of this country. And

00:29:18.080 --> 00:29:21.077
and that was fully autonomous weapons.

00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:24.717
So, you could imagine like a drone army
that, you know, one person has their

00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:27.677
finger on the button and you don't have
human soldiers, you have a, you know,

00:29:27.760 --> 00:29:30.197
you have a drone army and you have AI

00:29:30.280 --> 00:29:35.277
powering this. And then and then uh
domestic mass surveillance, which is,

00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:38.277
you know, spying, you know, using
the power of the government to spy on

00:29:38.360 --> 00:29:41.877
Americans. And and we
thought those were pretty

00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:44.637
reasonable things not to allow.

00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:48.557
Uh and uh you know, unfortunately, the

00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.717
Pentagon uh didn't feel that way. And

00:29:51.800 --> 00:29:54.637
and so we just we just couldn't agree to

00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:56.037
that. All the other companies have

00:29:56.120 --> 00:29:59.877
agreed to that now, but I I you know, I

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:03.317
I we we all met as co-founders. We said,

00:30:03.400 --> 00:30:07.637
you know, holy this could be really bad
for the company, but, you know, we can't

00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:11.477
do this, right? >> agreed?
>> Everyone ever Yeah, we we just we had,

00:30:11.560 --> 00:30:14.197
you know, we had a meeting around a table
like this and you know, we just said

00:30:14.280 --> 00:30:19.077
>> Was that a dark night of the soul
kind of moment? What what what What was

00:30:19.160 --> 00:30:22.717
everybody willing to stick to those
principles or did some people have to be

00:30:22.800 --> 00:30:27.277
convinced or did you know going in that
this is this is the end The co-founders

00:30:27.360 --> 00:30:31.437
believed this unanimously. Like there
there was a sense of like of like, you

00:30:31.520 --> 00:30:34.797
know, well, you know, all right.
I wish they hadn't done this,

00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.317
but if they're going to do it, bring
it on. Weren't you scared of what would

00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:40.837
happen to you by >> Yes.
Yes. [laughter] Yes.

00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:44.997
>> of what would happen to you? Yes.
I mean, I think I think the thing that it

00:30:45.080 --> 00:30:48.837
was it was a hard time. I mean, I don't
think we want to sugarcoat that. It was

00:30:48.920 --> 00:30:51.797
a stressful time at the company,
but I think a thing that Dario

00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:52.877
>> think it could be the end of the

00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.157
company? I think it crossed our minds.

00:30:55.240 --> 00:30:59.837
Yeah. I think um I think Dario and I and

00:30:59.920 --> 00:31:04.477
the co-founders though, the thing
that we all had in common was we just felt

00:31:04.560 --> 00:31:06.277
like this was the right thing to do.

00:31:06.360 --> 00:31:09.717
>> You were willing for it to be the end
of the company to stand up to your

00:31:09.800 --> 00:31:14.397
principles. I think the reason
we founded Anthropic was

00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:19.237
our commitment to our values and the
ethics that we chose to incorporate

00:31:19.320 --> 00:31:23.437
with. >> And it felt
like in the process of

00:31:23.520 --> 00:31:26.917
sacrificing those values, we wouldn't
have been the company that we had

00:31:27.000 --> 00:31:30.477
started if that makes sense.
It it it you know, the the way it happened

00:31:30.560 --> 00:31:32.757
>> you think would be the So I'm
sure if you're if you're sitting

00:31:32.840 --> 00:31:35.997
around the table, you're looking at the
best-case scenario and the worst-case

00:31:36.080 --> 00:31:39.757
scenario. And in that moment, it doesn't
look like there is a best-case scenario.

00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:44.077
So what was the worst-case scenario? At
various times, they had made claims that

00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.237
they could stop other companies from
doing business with us, right? Not just

00:31:47.320 --> 00:31:51.717
stop us from working with the government
or being part of other companies'

00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:54.477
contracts with the government, but that
they could stop other companies from

00:31:54.560 --> 00:31:56.077
doing business with us entirely.

00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.237
>> Period. Period. You're not not
only you're not doing business with the

00:31:59.320 --> 00:32:02.037
government, you're not doing business
with anybody anybody else that does

00:32:02.120 --> 00:32:04.397
business with you. >> Yeah,
or you can't do business with

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.397
anyone that does business with the
government in any way, which ends up

00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.277
being everyone everybody, right?

00:32:10.360 --> 00:32:14.237
I think the attitude we had was look,
this is really screwed up.

00:32:14.320 --> 00:32:18.717
Everyone knows this is wrong. Lots
of people are going to be on our side. We

00:32:18.800 --> 00:32:22.477
think this is going to work out okay,
but man, are we not sure. You know,

00:32:22.560 --> 00:32:26.157
there were moments there where it
was like, oh man, you know, are are we

00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:28.557
wrong? Is this going to be the end
of the company? Like What were you

00:32:28.640 --> 00:32:30.357
thinking, Daniela? You know, I just keep

00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:33.397
coming back to the co-founders

00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:35.797
felt like it was just the right thing to

00:32:35.880 --> 00:32:38.477
do. I think Anthropic's view has always

00:32:38.560 --> 00:32:41.397
been that we are about policy and not

00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:45.877
politics. Yeah. And Anthropic has leaned
in, I think, very early, before we even

00:32:45.960 --> 00:32:49.837
had a product, to the fact that,
you know, we think that the role of

00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:54.357
government in the development
and thoughtful regulation of of artificial

00:32:54.440 --> 00:32:57.677
intelligence is going to be incredibly
important. I think AI companies will

00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:00.517
have to work with the federal
government, with state governments,

00:33:00.600 --> 00:33:04.997
internationally, with with NGOs. And I
think our view was always, look, this is

00:33:05.080 --> 00:33:07.157
really about the substance. This is not

00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:09.357
a political disagreement. This is a

00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.077
policy disagreement. And I think in some

00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:16.477
ways, that in it's not to say it was easy,
but I think it made our decision

00:33:16.560 --> 00:33:20.357
easier because we felt strongly, look,
this is the right thing to do. These are

00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:24.197
the right red lines. To Dario's point,
we've we were actually the first AI

00:33:24.280 --> 00:33:28.037
company to work closely with national
security because we felt that that was

00:33:28.120 --> 00:33:32.437
in line and in keeping with our values,
except in these two areas that we felt

00:33:32.520 --> 00:33:35.077
could have the potential
to compromise democratic values.

00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:36.837
>> It's so interesting, uh,

00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:39.997
because most people don't get a decision

00:33:40.080 --> 00:33:42.917
at that scale that they have to make,

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:48.317
that they have to rely on their principles
and their their their values.

00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:51.317
Um, and and you're literally risking a

00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:54.797
multi-multi-billion dollar company. But

00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:59.277
it all goes back to how you were raised
and what how those principles were

00:33:59.360 --> 00:34:03.677
formed in you before you
had a big decision like that.

00:34:03.760 --> 00:34:07.357
>> You know, what we talked about before
we ever started the company, what's it you

00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:11.077
know, would our past selves be proud
of ourselves if we if we gave in here, if

00:34:11.160 --> 00:34:16.157
we compromised? Like I I you know, I that
that made the decision very clear, right?

00:34:16.240 --> 00:34:17.757
>> And I I will say, I mean, it wasn't

00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:21.317
nearly as, you know, publicly covered,

00:34:21.400 --> 00:34:26.117
but I think Anthropic has had, you know,
smaller decisions along the way that

00:34:26.200 --> 00:34:27.797
felt like they they laddered up to this.

00:34:27.880 --> 00:34:30.437
I mean, Yeah. >> now it looks
so obvious in retrospect.

00:34:30.520 --> 00:34:34.437
>> that because because to get to a big
decision like this in a moment like that

00:34:34.520 --> 00:34:38.117
where you have everyone around
the table and everything, it means

00:34:38.200 --> 00:34:42.317
that that life the life forces the way
the universe works is that you would

00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:46.437
have had other decisions other decisions
other decisions that laddered to that

00:34:46.520 --> 00:34:49.877
moment. Yes. Yeah. I think there are
probably three I can think of off the

00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:52.237
top of my head. Dario might have others
as well. Yes, I'm going to ask you

00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:54.277
others as well, but I think you know,

00:34:54.360 --> 00:34:57.517
one which you know, now feels sort of

00:34:57.600 --> 00:35:02.197
very obvious but was a bigger discussion
at the time was the no ads decision. So

00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:06.357
as you can imagine, I think for the
co-founders, for me and Dario, it was

00:35:06.440 --> 00:35:10.037
not controversial at all. We said, look,
we think the incentive the incentives

00:35:10.120 --> 00:35:12.877
are wrong. AI is different. People have

00:35:12.960 --> 00:35:17.597
very private conversations with these
AI models. People upload their health

00:35:17.680 --> 00:35:21.717
information. They ask questions about
their children. They ask Certainly

00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:26.837
finances. >> Finances. They talk about,
you know, medical information.

00:35:26.920 --> 00:35:29.917
Challenges they might be having with an
important person in their life. It's I

00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:31.677
think we

00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:37.037
want to treat our customers data with
the utmost privacy and respect. And so

00:35:37.120 --> 00:35:40.037
for the co-founders, it was never
a question. We said, look, we don't want

00:35:40.120 --> 00:35:44.117
to do ads, but there were quiet forces
that, you know, within the company or

00:35:44.200 --> 00:35:47.437
investors who were like, hey, this is
a great source of revenue. This is how

00:35:47.520 --> 00:35:51.517
Google and and Facebook and basically
every company that has a big user base,

00:35:51.600 --> 00:35:52.677
you know, that's just how it's done.

00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:56.317
That's how you make money. And we just
said like, sorry, that's just not how

00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:59.077
we're going to do things. We'll find
another way. That was that was one of

00:35:59.160 --> 00:36:01.517
the big ones. Okay. >> Yes,
that was that was one of the big ones.

00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:03.077
>> You have one? I can think of a couple.

00:36:03.160 --> 00:36:05.917
One is you know, there was this time I

00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:08.877
think in 2025,

00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:10.317
you know, probably the whole year of

00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.997
2025, the sentiment in tech was let's go

00:36:15.080 --> 00:36:19.077
ahead, right? Let's let's go ahead with
the technology like, you know, worrying

00:36:19.160 --> 00:36:22.757
about risks, you know, the all kind
of politicized language about why it's bad

00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:24.957
to slow down and be careful. And so

00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:30.877
there was a moment in the middle of 2025

00:36:30.960 --> 00:36:34.557
where, you know, there was a bill being
considered in Congress that would have

00:36:34.640 --> 00:36:39.157
banned all regulation of AI by states
and wouldn't have put in any federal

00:36:39.240 --> 00:36:43.437
regulation of AI either. So, basically
would have banned all regulation of the

00:36:43.520 --> 00:36:45.197
technology. >> hearing about this.

00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:49.157
>> and we, you know, we were trying
to decide what to do. We definitely didn't

00:36:49.240 --> 00:36:53.437
support it, but the question was, do we
just sit there and say nothing or do we

00:36:53.520 --> 00:36:57.157
speak out against it? And all kinds
of people said to us, "No, it'll be

00:36:57.240 --> 00:36:59.997
terrible. You'll break all your
political relationships. All the other

00:37:00.080 --> 00:37:03.757
companies will hate you if you speak
out against it." Um and actually some of

00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.677
that did happen when we
when spoke out against it. Um

00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:11.557
uh but, you know, we decided that this
was an area that we had to speak up that

00:37:11.640 --> 00:37:14.877
was central to the values of the company.
So, I wrote an op-ed in the New

00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.317
York Times saying this is a bad idea.

00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:21.157
>> Yeah. You know, that's about as loud
as you can be. Yeah. And that bill got

00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:23.967
voted down in the Senate 99 to 1.

00:37:24.050 --> 00:37:27.797
>> [laughter] >> Yeah. So,
you know, we we were clearly

00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:31.597
on the right side. Clearly on the right
side here. Not that it made us that many

00:37:31.680 --> 00:37:33.357
friends, but we were clearly on the

00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:35.317
right side. That also reminds me of

00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.757
another uh policy example is Anthropic's

00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:41.797
decision to publicly support SB 1047,

00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:45.237
which was a bill in California that was

00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:46.677
drafted and we said at the time we

00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:48.877
thought it was drafted imperfectly, but

00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.277
it was really the first attempt to

00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:56.317
create a regulatory framework around
many of the different types of risks

00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.917
that Anthropic had been enumerating
since really we had started the company.

00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.917
And I think in a similar vein, the whole
technology industry was against SB 1047.

00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:08.837
We didn't think it was necessarily, you
know, the perfect bill, but we actually

00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:11.437
stood up and said, "Look, we know
there's there's things about it if we

00:38:11.520 --> 00:38:14.397
were writing it that we would have
changed or done differently, but on

00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:18.157
balance we think it's better that these
regulations exist and that there's

00:38:18.240 --> 00:38:21.797
accountability for technology companies
to make sure that AI doesn't hurt

00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:25.917
people. And that also again, we got
Dario and I both personally got a lot of

00:38:26.000 --> 00:38:29.357
really angry emails from people we
used to work with, from investors, from

00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:33.397
people at other companies. Like the tech
industry has to kind of, you know, be

00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.357
aligned in being deregulatory or being
anti-regulatory. What does regulation

00:38:38.440 --> 00:38:42.877
look like? What would what should
regulation look like? And I think a lot

00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:47.477
of people out here who aren't doing what
you're doing, we don't understand why we

00:38:47.560 --> 00:38:51.677
wouldn't want regulation. And I've had
several public conversations about this.

00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:56.037
People also feel powerless. They also
feel powerless that everyone is talking

00:38:56.120 --> 00:38:58.917
about regulations and then other side
is saying, "Well, no, we have to get to to

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:03.317
it get to whatever we're getting
to as fast as we can." And we feel like we

00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:04.717
don't actually have a voice in it.

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.277
>> like you're passengers
on the train, right? And we are.

00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:11.317
We actually are.
Cuz that train has already left the

00:39:11.400 --> 00:39:15.957
>> That that is, you know, I think
that actually is really the core of it and

00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:20.397
and it's something that I think no
company, even ours, has quite succeeded

00:39:20.480 --> 00:39:22.757
at yet, which is like, "How do we make

00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:24.837
everyone a part of this process, right?

00:39:24.920 --> 00:39:29.717
Something is happening to humanity
with this technology, bigger than anything

00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:31.397
that, you know, maybe has happened in

00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:33.637
hundreds of years." And so we we need to

00:39:33.720 --> 00:39:36.917
find some way for for everyone to be an

00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:40.797
active participant in in in what
is happening. And, you know, of course, by

00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:44.957
using the technology, you are that to some
extent, but some element is missing

00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:48.677
that we have we've tried
to find it like, you know,

00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:51.837
we Claude has something called the
Constitution and we've experimented with

00:39:51.920 --> 00:39:55.797
having like, you know, citizens give
feedback on like the Constitution for

00:39:55.880 --> 00:39:59.157
Claude, right? So everyone can kind
of be a part of designing it. But that's

00:39:59.240 --> 00:40:03.037
just one small thing. Like I I I I don't
I don't quite know what the answer is,

00:40:03.120 --> 00:40:06.237
but there's a missing piece here,
I think, is what I'm trying to say. It

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.477
goes back, I think, Dario, to what what

00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:13.997
I read that you'd said before, that we
can only diffuse this at the speed of

00:40:14.080 --> 00:40:17.637
trust. Trust.
>> At the speed of trust, and trust is

00:40:17.720 --> 00:40:19.277
currently in short supply.

00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:22.917
>> In in in in very in very short supply.

00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.037
You know, I think the the
tech this this technology I

00:40:27.120 --> 00:40:29.997
think is I'm happy to admit it is viewed

00:40:30.080 --> 00:40:35.117
negatively by most people.
I I that's that's the sense that I get.

00:40:35.200 --> 00:40:39.597
That's what we get when looking at polls.
We I think are are are again

00:40:39.680 --> 00:40:43.317
being honest here viewed somewhat more
positively than the other companies, but

00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:46.237
I don't know that Should it be viewed

00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.957
negatively by most people at this point?

00:40:49.040 --> 00:40:52.797
I think it's a mix. I think the positive
benefits really are there. They're

00:40:52.880 --> 00:40:55.877
coming for for all the companies, and I

00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:58.597
think we have not

00:40:58.680 --> 00:41:00.637
you know go going back to the thing we

00:41:00.720 --> 00:41:03.477
said a minute ago related to people in

00:41:03.560 --> 00:41:07.117
the right way or you know or or walked

00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:11.197
people through how the technology
could have benefits or how they can

00:41:11.280 --> 00:41:14.957
participate in those benefits. Like I
don't think that has happened. One of

00:41:15.040 --> 00:41:18.797
Anthropic's cultural values
is to hold light and shade.

00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:22.597
And I think this is a really good
encapsulation of the Hold light and

00:41:22.680 --> 00:41:25.077
shade. Yes. >> Yes,
of the conversation we're having,

00:41:25.160 --> 00:41:28.717
right? It's it's I think we truly
believe there's a world where it will

00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:33.117
cure disease and help people become
better versions of themselves and enable

00:41:33.200 --> 00:41:36.637
humans to spend more time with our
families, with our communities, with

00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:40.197
each other. And there are versions
of the world that are quite dystopian and

00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:42.877
dark. Yeah. That this could create.

00:41:42.960 --> 00:41:46.197
>> I've heard you say that 50%
of entry-level jobs are going to be wiped

00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:50.397
out, and you can see then why people
view >> Yeah, well not not arguing. I mean

00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:54.037
that's that's that's the that's the
negative path, right? Like you know and

00:41:54.120 --> 00:41:57.837
and you know I think always when we talk,
we talk about well if we don't get

00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.917
it right this could happen, and if we
get it right you know then then we can

00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.077
have a better path and you know you know
as you said it's always somehow the you

00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:10.477
know we haven't shown the benefits yet,
so the the negative stories really

00:42:10.560 --> 00:42:13.277
really stick. >> every positive

00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:18.237
uh force that comes into our lives also
have has its negative, that there's a

00:42:18.320 --> 00:42:21.117
yin and yang on everything?
>> and shade. Yeah, the light and shade.

00:42:21.200 --> 00:42:24.397
Yeah, that that that is >> when
when the automobiles were invented,

00:42:24.480 --> 00:42:27.517
all the people saying, "I'm going to keep
my horse. I'm not going to you know."

00:42:27.600 --> 00:42:31.397
>> Yeah, I again, what I would say
is if we just barrel forth on the

00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:34.597
technology as fast as possible,
then these things I said about entry-level

00:42:34.680 --> 00:42:37.037
jobs, it's totally going to happen. But

00:42:37.120 --> 00:42:39.957
if we not just deploy the technology,

00:42:40.040 --> 00:42:44.597
but you know, we think about how to help
people adapt, we think about the role

00:42:44.680 --> 00:42:48.837
that the government should play
in helping people, like there's there's a

00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:53.317
path from here to a better world, like
a better world where, you know, people's

00:42:53.400 --> 00:42:56.437
jobs are totally different. They do
a different set of jobs than they did

00:42:56.520 --> 00:43:00.397
before, but I don't want to sugarcoat it.
Like it's it's not it's not going to

00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.477
be easy, you know, when other people
speak about it, like some of some of my

00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:05.917
colleagues >> you talk
about the jobs, yeah.

00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:10.317
>> People get upset. There's a difference
between changing the narrative and and

00:43:10.400 --> 00:43:14.277
acknowledge that the problem is very
difficult and that we actually have to

00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:17.997
solve it, right? My worry is that
changing the narrative is like the bad

00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:21.157
thing's not going to happen. We'll have
a great future where everyone will have

00:43:21.240 --> 00:43:25.317
new jobs. That can happen,
but it's not going to happen on its own.

00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:30.917
>> That's right. >> It's up to us. We we,
the companies, people, the governments

00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:34.397
>> both things are true. You're going
to lose the jobs and you're going to have

00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:37.557
all the other advances.
>> And and and the second thing will only

00:43:37.640 --> 00:43:40.837
happen if we do it right. >> Yeah.
What should we, the public, be

00:43:40.920 --> 00:43:44.917
doing? Or are we just Should we just
just content ourselves with the fact

00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.277
that we're on the train? Being afraid of

00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:52.197
the technology and not using it and being
literate, um will not make many of

00:43:52.280 --> 00:43:56.477
the challenges that we are concerned
about and that Daria outlined go away.

00:43:56.560 --> 00:43:58.837
And I think knowledge is power. I truly

00:43:58.920 --> 00:44:01.917
think um you don't have to be an expert

00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:06.357
in technology to have some concept of how
to use these artificial intelligence

00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:08.557
tools. And I think what that that gives

00:44:08.640 --> 00:44:12.437
people is an opinion and some autonomy

00:44:12.520 --> 00:44:16.957
to be able to say, I like that this
technology can do this thing, and I

00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:21.197
don't like that it can do
this other thing, right? Because

00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:24.677
people have a voice. They have a voice,
by the way, to the companies. They have

00:44:24.760 --> 00:44:29.237
a voice to their representative
government to say, we don't like, again,

00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:33.157
Anthropic, we don't allow kids under 18
on the platform. Other companies have a

00:44:33.240 --> 00:44:36.317
have a different policy.
If you've read Jonathan Haidt's book,

00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:40.117
The Anxious Generation, I think there's
a lot of research that suggests you

00:44:40.200 --> 00:44:43.637
might want to be really careful
about giving developing brains

00:44:43.720 --> 00:44:45.677
>> book. We've talked to him three times.

00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.397
>> Yes, of course. But you know,
[laughter] I I read that

00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.637
book, and I think that was part of,
you know, again, it felt like an in some

00:44:51.720 --> 00:44:56.237
ways an easy decision for us to say,
we just don't know enough about what AI's

00:44:56.320 --> 00:44:59.477
going to do to kids. It's not to say
that there couldn't be great benefits

00:44:59.560 --> 00:45:03.637
for kids using AI for learning, but that
needs to be done with an adult in the

00:45:03.720 --> 00:45:07.557
room. It needs to be done with a human
in the loop. And I you know, I think

00:45:07.640 --> 00:45:09.997
that that the reason we've always taken

00:45:10.080 --> 00:45:13.357
this perspective is we just we people

00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:17.517
deserve autonomy to to to Darya's point,
people shouldn't feel like artificial

00:45:17.600 --> 00:45:19.157
intelligence is happening to them.

00:45:19.240 --> 00:45:23.277
People should feel like, hey, we get
a say in what types of bills go up in

00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:27.797
Congress in your state that help protect
people from the negative externalities

00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:32.397
that AI could cause. I also think
at the same time, holding the light side,

00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:34.597
I think there's a world where jobs will

00:45:34.680 --> 00:45:36.797
look different, but there will actually

00:45:36.880 --> 00:45:39.677
be more opportunity for sort of

00:45:39.760 --> 00:45:42.077
human-to-human interaction. I think the

00:45:42.160 --> 00:45:45.077
last generation of technology really

00:45:45.160 --> 00:45:49.757
disintermediated us from each other,
right? Social media is kind of

00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:54.117
structured around the idea that you're
sort of living this virtual life. You're

00:45:54.200 --> 00:45:56.757
holding your phone, and you're looking
at what your friends are doing, but

00:45:56.840 --> 00:45:57.837
guess what you're not actually doing?

00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.957
You're not spending time with your
friends. You're spending time staring at

00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:03.237
your phone. Even you're at the concert,
you're holding your phone. You're not

00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:06.397
even in the concert.
You're just filming what's on

00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:10.557
It's a little counterintuitive cuz
social media claims to connect people.

00:46:10.640 --> 00:46:14.757
But it actually does it in sort of a fake
way. AI, you're talking to the AI,

00:46:14.840 --> 00:46:18.677
you're not talking to a person, but in
a but but it doesn't substitute for your

00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:21.957
interaction with people. It can
enable your interaction with people.

00:46:22.040 --> 00:46:24.517
>> And my feeling is that

00:46:24.600 --> 00:46:27.037
it's not even necessarily that the jobs

00:46:27.120 --> 00:46:29.317
themselves will completely go away or

00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:32.117
change, but the qualities that we look

00:46:32.200 --> 00:46:34.077
for in people to do a given job will

00:46:34.160 --> 00:46:36.357
change. Okay. So, the example that I

00:46:36.440 --> 00:46:39.557
point to is if you think about a doctor.

00:46:39.640 --> 00:46:43.757
When you go to the doctor today,
you probably want to go to the smartest,

00:46:43.840 --> 00:46:47.077
best doctor. We say, "Look, I have
a stomach ache. Tell me what's wrong with

00:46:47.160 --> 00:46:48.997
me." >> in that? >> Who's
the specialist? Tell me what's

00:46:49.080 --> 00:46:52.917
wrong with me. And AIs are going to get
really good at being able to do that.

00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:57.277
Today, we prize doctors
for being good diagnosticians,

00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:00.557
but we don't necessarily always
prize them for having a good bedside

00:47:00.640 --> 00:47:05.397
>> Right. In a world where AI is as good
at diagnosing you as a doctor, people are

00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:08.557
still going to want a doctor. They're
just going to want them to do different

00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:10.557
things for them. Right?
An [clears throat] AI can't physically

00:47:10.640 --> 00:47:14.197
examine you. It can't say, "Hey,
you look really down today. How have How

00:47:14.280 --> 00:47:15.997
have your chemo treatments been going?"

00:47:16.080 --> 00:47:19.197
>> its hands on you. >> lay its
hands on you. And And there's so

00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:23.797
much compelling evidence that patients
have better clinical outcomes

00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:27.117
when they have a good personal
relationship with their doctor.

00:47:27.200 --> 00:47:28.317
>> When they like their doctor.

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:31.597
>> doctors actually lay their hands on
them and touch them and communicate with

00:47:31.680 --> 00:47:35.557
them. Yes. And by the way, have
enough time to to think through and to

00:47:35.640 --> 00:47:40.277
empathize. And I think that is the
good world of job changes, right?

00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.517
>> say, "I don't have time to go around
>> I can't lay my hands on people. I don't

00:47:43.600 --> 00:47:45.997
have time. Cuz I'm seeing
thousands of patients.

00:47:46.080 --> 00:47:49.877
>> the clerical work. And I'm And I have
a too big of a patient caseload. But if

00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:53.957
you have a tool that's able to diagnose
things in concert with a doctor, where

00:47:54.040 --> 00:47:57.197
the doctor says, "You know, let me talk
to this tool. And by the way, I'm not

00:47:57.280 --> 00:48:00.357
going to be spending as much time
running all the medical tests and doing

00:48:00.440 --> 00:48:03.597
this and that. I'm going to be spending
time relating to as a human being. I

00:48:03.680 --> 00:48:05.837
think that is going to be really
I think that's a better world.

00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:09.797
>> again. Your positions
may not go away, but what

00:48:09.880 --> 00:48:13.957
you're needed to do in those positions
is going to change. Yes, and I

00:48:14.040 --> 00:48:16.757
personally believe >> to be a shift. Yes.

00:48:16.840 --> 00:48:21.397
>> And of course there is cuz that's what
we're doing human beings. We're evolving.

00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:23.357
>> Yes. >> Evolving to the next level.

00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:25.557
>> I would also just
say I personally think

00:48:25.640 --> 00:48:30.157
knowledge is power and something
that worries me is there are there are

00:48:30.240 --> 00:48:31.917
demographic differences in who feels

00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:34.557
comfortable using AI and who does not.

00:48:34.640 --> 00:48:37.997
Women use AI a tiny fraction of the time

00:48:38.080 --> 00:48:42.237
compared to men and I think you know
AI is an opportunity for us to level the

00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:46.077
playing field in some ways, but it
requires people to be engaged. That

00:48:46.160 --> 00:48:49.797
doesn't mean hey, you have to come pay
us all this money and sign up. Just be

00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:53.077
comfortable, fluent. Don't be afraid of
the technology because the more you know

00:48:53.160 --> 00:48:57.117
about it, the more you understand it
the better informed you are going to be to

00:48:57.200 --> 00:49:01.477
use your voice effectively.
>> And it's here. You're in it and if

00:49:01.560 --> 00:49:05.597
you're going to continue to live, you're
going to be in the world where It's like

00:49:05.680 --> 00:49:09.637
part of our society. It's not It's not
going away anymore than the train or the

00:49:09.720 --> 00:49:13.517
steam engine is, you know.
I think of it like the internet, right?

00:49:13.600 --> 00:49:16.517
Everybody had somebody's parent who
said I'm not going to be online. It's

00:49:16.600 --> 00:49:20.197
impossible, right? Everybody has to be
on the internet now in some form and I

00:49:20.280 --> 00:49:23.477
think artificial intelligence is just
the next instantiation of that. So one

00:49:23.560 --> 00:49:27.157
of the things I want to talk about
is the fact that AI just keeps

00:49:27.240 --> 00:49:29.877
It's It just keeps improving on itself.

00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:32.637
That's I guess what it's designed to do

00:49:32.720 --> 00:49:35.677
and there is a new AI model called

00:49:35.760 --> 00:49:39.717
Mythos. Mythos, yes. So that is like

00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:43.837
smarter than the smartest of the smartest.
Tell us in a simple term what

00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:48.717
Mythos is and what it can and will be
doing. Yeah, so you know the general

00:49:48.800 --> 00:49:52.437
principles of these models is when we
train them, we try and you know, make

00:49:52.520 --> 00:49:56.677
them better and better at everything
at writing code, at translating languages,

00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:58.317
and answering questions, at reading

00:49:58.400 --> 00:50:01.157
documents. Um and and Mythos was just

00:50:01.240 --> 00:50:03.917
kind of the latest um you know, was the

00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:05.757
latest iteration. Every few months we

00:50:05.840 --> 00:50:08.477
produce a smarter model and and Mythos

00:50:08.560 --> 00:50:11.237
was the latest smart model and you know,

00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:15.517
we we made some discoveries a few months
before we started Mythos and so it was a

00:50:15.600 --> 00:50:20.117
particularly large jump. When we started
testing Mythos, when we make these

00:50:20.200 --> 00:50:21.877
models, we test them for lots of things.

00:50:21.960 --> 00:50:23.877
We say, "Oh, how good is this thing at

00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:25.677
translating, you know, French to

00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:29.997
English? Or how good is this at um you

00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:32.917
know, um recommending a stock portfolio?

00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:36.597
Or how good is it at um you know,

00:50:36.680 --> 00:50:39.837
finding bugs in software code?" And it

00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:41.877
was on that last one that we found

00:50:41.960 --> 00:50:44.277
something interesting for Mythos. Which

00:50:44.360 --> 00:50:48.957
is that Mythos was much better than

00:50:49.040 --> 00:50:54.237
human software engineers at finding ways
that code could be exploited and broken

00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.877
into. You know, have you ever heard
about like ransomware attacks on

00:50:57.960 --> 00:51:00.437
hospitals or schools? So, you know,

00:51:00.520 --> 00:51:03.557
these cyber attacks happen all the time.

00:51:03.640 --> 00:51:06.597
And Mythos we found, not because we

00:51:06.680 --> 00:51:08.357
designed it to do this or because we

00:51:08.440 --> 00:51:10.837
designed it to be dangerous, turned out

00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:14.637
to be very good at both conducting cyber

00:51:14.720 --> 00:51:18.517
attacks and defending against cyber
attacks. And so we said, "Wow, this

00:51:18.600 --> 00:51:22.077
thing kind of seems like a weapon."
Um we we shouldn't you know, we probably

00:51:22.160 --> 00:51:24.637
shouldn't give it to everyone right away.

00:51:24.720 --> 00:51:27.917
And so the thing we came up with is we
said, "We're going to take some

00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:30.917
companies that are particularly core to

00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:32.637
the infrastructure of the internet,

00:51:32.720 --> 00:51:35.637
right? Some of the top banks, some of

00:51:35.720 --> 00:51:38.757
the top um you know, software providers

00:51:38.840 --> 00:51:43.717
like Apple or like
Microsoft or like Google, and

00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:48.277
you know, hand it to them
and let them fix everything before

00:51:48.360 --> 00:51:50.437
it becomes widely available and things

00:51:50.520 --> 00:51:52.397
can be broken. Um so we would kind of

00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:55.517
give it to the defenders before the you

00:51:55.600 --> 00:52:00.117
know before the attackers got a hold of
it. And so we had a program. We've we've

00:52:00.200 --> 00:52:02.517
given the model to you know, I think

00:52:02.600 --> 00:52:05.797
it's something like 40 companies now and

00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:07.597
they're you know, they're busy they're

00:52:07.680 --> 00:52:09.877
busily finding bugs. And you know, we

00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:13.437
just had a post a few days ago that one

00:52:13.520 --> 00:52:15.917
of the well-known companies found more

00:52:16.000 --> 00:52:20.637
bugs and fixed more bugs with Mythos in

00:52:20.720 --> 00:52:24.677
a week than uh they had for the last year.

00:52:24.760 --> 00:52:27.597
Uh and and and so we are you know, this

00:52:27.680 --> 00:52:32.397
is really changing things. Now our hope
is the defenders can fix everything and

00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:33.757
everything gets more seamless,

00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:35.677
everything gets harder to break into. So

00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:39.757
our hope is the era of ransomware and

00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.677
you know, spies breaking into your phone

00:52:42.760 --> 00:52:44.437
and you know, People are worried about

00:52:44.520 --> 00:52:48.517
bio-terrorism and should be. So our our

00:52:48.600 --> 00:52:51.357
yeah, our our our hope is that at the

00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.477
end of this say at the end of this year,

00:52:53.560 --> 00:52:57.077
we get to a point where all of these you

00:52:57.160 --> 00:52:59.077
know, many of these things have been

00:52:59.160 --> 00:53:01.197
fixed and we live in a more secure world

00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:04.597
than we did before. But in the meantime,

00:53:04.680 --> 00:53:08.277
you know, there's this dangerous period
during which you have these these kind

00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:12.517
of incredible capabilities that you know,
that you know, you don't want to

00:53:12.600 --> 00:53:16.197
just necessarily loose on the world.
And so we're trying to we're trying to

00:53:16.280 --> 00:53:20.037
manage that by giving it to the
defenders before we give it to the

00:53:20.120 --> 00:53:22.797
attackers. Thank you for that. Does is

00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:27.517
this is the kind of thing that keeps you
up at night? Do you sleep well? Uh I I

00:53:27.600 --> 00:53:30.877
you know, I cannot legitimately say
that I sleep. I wish I could answer that

00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.317
question differently, but uh but you
know, I got to I got to give you an

00:53:34.400 --> 00:53:38.197
honest answer here which is you know,
I don't always sleep so well. I would I

00:53:38.280 --> 00:53:41.197
would say, you know, going back to the
earlier part of the conversation we were

00:53:41.280 --> 00:53:44.117
having Because you're
worried about these things.

00:53:44.200 --> 00:53:48.157
This this and you know, just everything
just wanting to get it right. That's the

00:53:48.240 --> 00:53:51.197
thing that worries me the most.
Just like, you know,

00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:55.757
for all our intentions, all of this stuff
is incredibly complex. Just are we

00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:58.957
going to screw up? Yeah. And and I mean
the answer is yes. At some point we'll

00:53:59.040 --> 00:54:01.157
screw up something. But but like

00:54:01.240 --> 00:54:02.517
are we going to get the big stuff right?

00:54:02.600 --> 00:54:05.997
Yeah. Yeah. And also because you all are

00:54:06.080 --> 00:54:08.117
fundamentally principled people.

00:54:08.200 --> 00:54:12.557
>> Yes. So I think that actually makes
a big difference when you're fundamentally

00:54:12.640 --> 00:54:15.477
principled people. Uh

00:54:15.560 --> 00:54:18.917
not everybody is. And uh there's a lot

00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.477
of egos in

00:54:21.560 --> 00:54:24.597
in every field. But I think particularly

00:54:24.680 --> 00:54:27.117
when people are making so many billions

00:54:27.200 --> 00:54:29.557
and billions and billions of dollars and

00:54:29.640 --> 00:54:31.637
there's the race to beat China and all

00:54:31.720 --> 00:54:36.757
of that that it's easily to lose sight
of what's what really matters and what

00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:40.717
really matters to the public. I'm
wondering what you all have done to sort

00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:43.197
of keep your egos in check. You know, I

00:54:43.280 --> 00:54:46.797
think it again, to us it always comes

00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:50.677
back to the mission, right? Why we
did this in the first place. Why did we

00:54:50.760 --> 00:54:52.997
leave Open AI to start Anthropic?

00:54:53.080 --> 00:54:58.197
Because we wanted to make sure that AI
goes well for everybody, right? That's

00:54:58.280 --> 00:54:59.957
why we're a public benefit corporation.

00:55:00.040 --> 00:55:02.157
That's why we took the 80% pledge.

00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:06.317
That's why we've made all of these
difficult decisions. You know, I was in

00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:10.317
our internal like our internal Slack
messaging app today. You know, I talk to

00:55:10.400 --> 00:55:14.157
the company a lot. And one of the things
I was saying is, you know, we're 3,500

00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:18.277
people now. We we were, you know,
like 1,200 people, you know, like 6 months

00:55:18.360 --> 00:55:23.077
ago. At one point, because because I
encourage this, someone posted in my

00:55:23.160 --> 00:55:26.597
like, you know, like my personal Slack
channel, you know, I I had done an

00:55:26.680 --> 00:55:29.917
all-hands in front of the company
and like, you know, said something and I

00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:32.997
think I said it in not quite the right
way. And someone someone wrote in my

00:55:33.080 --> 00:55:35.797
channel. Usually it's only me who writes
things in my channel. Someone wrote in

00:55:35.880 --> 00:55:39.157
my channel, "This was a pretty bad thing
to say and it like makes everyone feel

00:55:39.240 --> 00:55:43.037
bad and like you know this this like
you shouldn't have said it this way.

00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:45.757
And of course you know when I read it I
you know the initial reaction is always

00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:49.477
like oh man like I feel
like I'm being attacked. But

00:55:49.560 --> 00:55:53.117
but but like you take a beat and then
and then two minutes later I'm like I'm

00:55:53.200 --> 00:55:57.157
so glad people are saying this and then
you know I wrote something that was like

00:55:57.240 --> 00:56:00.317
I'm so glad you're what you're like
willing to say that you know and and

00:56:00.400 --> 00:56:03.397
then people noticed this like many
people messaged me where I was like I

00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:07.077
didn't know you could do that. I didn't
know you could just contradict the CEO

00:56:07.160 --> 00:56:11.277
of a you know 3,000 person
but it's you know you you

00:56:11.360 --> 00:56:14.277
got to you've got to you've got to.
You know why that's a powerful example?

00:56:14.360 --> 00:56:16.757
Early early on like in the late 80s I

00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:18.997
think I I met Henry Kravis for the first

00:56:19.080 --> 00:56:24.317
time and he was saying to me be aware
that the more money you accumulate the

00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:28.197
less chance that you're ever going
to hear the truth. Yes. Because he said

00:56:28.280 --> 00:56:32.597
rich men and I guess he also meant rich
women too but he goes rich men rarely

00:56:32.680 --> 00:56:36.717
hear the truth. >> Yes. Yeah.
I I I'll also just add I think

00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:41.317
what you do in your personal life matters
too there's what you do at work but

00:56:41.400 --> 00:56:44.677
I basically have the same friends I've
had since like high school and college

00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:47.797
and guess what they have no trouble
being honest with me and they have no

00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:51.157
trouble telling me the the truth
and they have no trouble disagreeing with

00:56:51.240 --> 00:56:55.277
public decisions that Anthropic has made
right? So I think the last five years

00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:58.277
have changed a lot but I think for me
personally I don't really feel like that

00:56:58.360 --> 00:57:02.477
much has changed outside of work and I
think that's an important grounding

00:57:02.560 --> 00:57:06.357
characteristic. I think people who tend
to be in charge of these big companies

00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:09.317
sometimes it's like they become
obsessed just with their work they're not

00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:13.957
well-rounded person and I think there's
something when we started Anthropic of

00:57:14.040 --> 00:57:17.397
like the first you know of the seven
or eight folks who who really started the

00:57:17.480 --> 00:57:22.877
company only one of them had one kid and
now there's 11 kids and I think there's

00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:25.837
something about the fact that we all
chose to be parents [clears throat] we

00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:28.477
all want fulfilling real lives outside

00:57:28.560 --> 00:57:33.357
of work. I think that just brings a sort
of groundedness humility low ego, and

00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:37.477
just again, like no one is bigger than
the mission. So So, what comes through

00:57:37.560 --> 00:57:41.957
really clearly is that sister and brother,
you started this, it's bigger

00:57:42.040 --> 00:57:43.877
than you ever imagined, you always

00:57:43.960 --> 00:57:45.517
wanted to make an impact in doing good

00:57:45.600 --> 00:57:49.517
for the world, and you

00:57:49.600 --> 00:57:51.117
stuck to your principles even when it

00:57:51.200 --> 00:57:53.477
was really difficult. What gives you the

00:57:53.560 --> 00:57:58.357
hope that you will get this right?

00:57:58.440 --> 00:58:02.717
So, we're never quite sure, I think,
is is the honest answer. Like, we believe

00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:07.877
we're trying our best and trying very
hard. Um it's just the decisions are

00:58:07.960 --> 00:58:11.157
complicated, right? If we go back to
Mythos, it's like, do we give it to more

00:58:11.240 --> 00:58:13.917
people faster or less people slower?

00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:16.477
Like, who do we trust? And so, it's

00:58:16.560 --> 00:58:21.237
about getting all the details right
in addition to just having the right

00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:23.317
principles, which which I believe we do.

00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:28.357
>> Yeah. Um And And so, I think we worry
about it every day, and the fact that we

00:58:28.440 --> 00:58:31.477
worry about it every day is maybe the
thing that most gives us hope that like,

00:58:31.560 --> 00:58:36.077
well, that we're so paranoid about it,
but it's it's it's no guarantee. And

00:58:36.160 --> 00:58:39.077
we've made mistakes, we're going
to continue to make mistakes. Like, you

00:58:39.160 --> 00:58:41.397
know, we're that that that's
that's a given, right?

00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.957
>> Are there other people
in Silicon Valley who also

00:58:45.040 --> 00:58:47.397
have it a part of their mission to get

00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:51.997
it right? Do you feel supported
in that mission by others?

00:58:52.080 --> 00:58:53.357
It's hard to point to maybe like a

00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:55.957
particular company, but I think

00:58:56.040 --> 00:59:00.837
I am very touched by sometimes,
you know, whatever you go and talk in an

00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.917
event, or another company wants you
to come speak to them, and somebody in the

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:08.837
audience, you know, comes up to you
afterwards or ask a question, and they

00:59:08.920 --> 00:59:12.637
say something like, "Thank you guys for
the way that you do things." Yeah. Like,

00:59:12.720 --> 00:59:14.637
thank you for trying to get it right.

00:59:14.720 --> 00:59:18.637
There's this kind of sense that,
you know, I think um I think something

00:59:18.720 --> 00:59:22.117
that's great about our relationship
is Dario and I I also think we hold each

00:59:22.200 --> 00:59:26.277
other accountable, right? And so, when,
you know, we go back and forth on, "Is

00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:28.917
this a right Is this the right decision
for the company is this in keeping with

00:59:29.000 --> 00:59:31.997
our values we have each other we have
the whole co-founding team is still at

00:59:32.080 --> 00:59:35.997
Anthropic. I think we've also hired an
amazing set of people who are also there

00:59:36.080 --> 00:59:39.837
for the mission. There's almost a kind
of group accountability and if you pair

00:59:39.920 --> 00:59:44.077
that with like Dario mentioned
this culture internally of anybody can

00:59:44.160 --> 00:59:47.997
disagree with us right and yes that's
hard to do but there's a lot of forums

00:59:48.080 --> 00:59:50.917
in which they're encouraged to do that
their manager can do it they can do it

00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:56.077
anonymously. I think all of those
qualities make it more likely that that

00:59:56.160 --> 00:59:57.757
if we start to stray from the path we're

00:59:57.840 --> 01:00:00.877
at least going to know. Okay and you

01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:05.837
want to leave us the public knowing what?
What is the most important

01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:07.477
thing you want us to know in this moment

01:00:07.560 --> 01:00:11.157
in time where we are in our AI journey?

01:00:11.240 --> 01:00:13.837
You know there's there's something

01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.077
really big happening to the world here.

01:00:16.160 --> 01:00:18.797
This isn't the this isn't the you know

01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:21.077
this isn't the latest technology this

01:00:21.160 --> 01:00:24.517
isn't crypto this isn't mobile this you

01:00:24.600 --> 01:00:26.357
know this this isn't like the latest you

01:00:26.440 --> 01:00:29.557
know gadget or buzzword. Something

01:00:29.640 --> 01:00:33.517
really big is happening to humanity here.

01:00:33.600 --> 01:00:36.437
While the technology is being built by a

01:00:36.520 --> 01:00:38.437
small number of people

01:00:38.520 --> 01:00:42.077
we we need to make it work for everyone

01:00:42.160 --> 01:00:46.797
and we need to make sure that between
all of us we make the right decisions

01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:49.037
and and we reckon with

01:00:49.120 --> 01:00:52.477
changes to our daily lives changes to

01:00:52.560 --> 01:00:56.477
our jobs changes to you know

01:00:56.560 --> 01:01:01.317
government and civil liberties and if
we do this the right way all of those

01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:05.117
things could change in a positive way
all of those things could be better than

01:01:05.200 --> 01:01:06.677
we left them we could have the perfect

01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:09.117
world where you know many many diseases

01:01:09.200 --> 01:01:12.237
are cured people's lives are more joyful

01:01:12.320 --> 01:01:14.597
and meaningful but you know if we get it

01:01:14.680 --> 01:01:17.517
wrong it's easy to imagine things not

01:01:17.600 --> 01:01:20.797
going that way at all and you know it's

01:01:20.880 --> 01:01:24.157
up to all of us Some of us are in a more

01:01:24.240 --> 01:01:28.157
central position, but that's something
I think we need to change as well. And,

01:01:28.240 --> 01:01:30.997
you know, it's not easy. It's not any
one thing. It's going to be a bunch of

01:01:31.080 --> 01:01:34.717
different things. I think I would probably

01:01:34.800 --> 01:01:38.917
leave people very similar to what Dario
said with this with this concept of of

01:01:39.000 --> 01:01:41.557
light and shade. That the potential

01:01:41.640 --> 01:01:46.037
benefits from artificial intelligence
are are vast. Um we've written about

01:01:46.120 --> 01:01:50.157
them. We've tried to talk about them
publicly. We believe they're real. Um

01:01:50.240 --> 01:01:52.357
and also the risks are are also real,

01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:55.477
right? We're not trying to hype up the

01:01:55.560 --> 01:01:57.837
the positives or hype up the negatives.

01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:00.037
I think they're both true. It's complex,

01:02:00.120 --> 01:02:02.357
but we have to hold two things at once.

01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:04.997
And I think just echoing Dario, this is

01:02:05.080 --> 01:02:10.797
not something that technology companies
can do by ourselves. Nor should it be.

01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:11.957
It's something that's going to take

01:02:12.040 --> 01:02:15.077
partnership from a much bigger group of

01:02:15.160 --> 01:02:19.997
people than is currently working on
artificial intelligence. And I think the

01:02:20.080 --> 01:02:23.997
first step there has to be don't don't
be afraid of it. Learn about it. Lean

01:02:24.080 --> 01:02:26.797
into it. Ask questions. Be critical.

01:02:26.880 --> 01:02:30.957
Just like we say to our staff, right?
We are only going to have a chance of

01:02:31.040 --> 01:02:34.957
getting this right if we expand
the circle of people that are in the

01:02:35.040 --> 01:02:39.197
conversation.
I ask this of all my guests and

01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:42.437
particularly I'm interested
from the two of you.

01:02:42.520 --> 01:02:44.837
And what do you think is the meaning of

01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:46.877
a well-lived life?

01:02:46.960 --> 01:02:49.717
And how AI is going to contribute to

01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:52.077
that well-lived life. But what what will

01:02:52.160 --> 01:02:54.197
be the meaning of a well-lived life for

01:02:54.280 --> 01:02:57.077
you, your family, and your children? I

01:02:57.160 --> 01:03:00.717
think for me a well-lived life

01:03:00.800 --> 01:03:02.517
is one where

01:03:02.600 --> 01:03:06.437
you have agency and autonomy.

01:03:06.520 --> 01:03:08.437
You're in the driver seat

01:03:08.520 --> 01:03:12.037
and you're using that in the service of

01:03:12.120 --> 01:03:15.117
being the best version of yourself.

01:03:15.200 --> 01:03:17.037
And I think the best version of yourself

01:03:17.120 --> 01:03:20.597
for you, for your family, for your kids,

01:03:20.680 --> 01:03:22.477
for your broader community, and I think

01:03:22.560 --> 01:03:25.637
for the world. I think um

01:03:25.720 --> 01:03:28.037
the ability to be self-reflective, to

01:03:28.120 --> 01:03:31.597
learn from mistakes, to overcome

01:03:31.680 --> 01:03:34.357
struggles, and to come out the other

01:03:34.440 --> 01:03:36.637
side thinking, "You know, I know more

01:03:36.720 --> 01:03:39.677
about who I am, I like who I am, and I

01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:44.117
want to help other people."
I think that to me is the best

01:03:44.200 --> 01:03:48.917
definition of a well-lived,
introspective life. And like I talked

01:03:49.000 --> 01:03:50.437
about, I think

01:03:50.520 --> 01:03:53.357
I think there's a world where AI

01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:57.517
could damage so many
of the things that I think

01:03:57.600 --> 01:04:00.037
are the hallmarks of a well-lived life.

01:04:00.120 --> 01:04:01.277
And I think there's a world where it

01:04:01.360 --> 01:04:03.517
could enable those, and it could allow a

01:04:03.600 --> 01:04:07.117
lot more people to be able to have

01:04:07.200 --> 01:04:10.277
meaning and value, and to

01:04:10.360 --> 01:04:12.397
self-introspect, to be the best versions

01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:14.717
of ourselves, to show up for each other

01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:19.877
well. And I hope that's the world
that we're going to build towards.

01:04:19.960 --> 01:04:22.677
I'd just say the same thing as Daniela
in different words. I think it's pretty

01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:27.317
pretty simple. Um you know, I think
you know, just operate always with a

01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:30.717
sense of dignity and principle. Like,
you know, when you look back and you're

01:04:30.800 --> 01:04:34.437
like, you know, don't you shouldn't when
you look back be ashamed of what you did

01:04:34.520 --> 01:04:37.757
or say, you know, I you know, I wish
I'd done this this other thing. Of course

01:04:37.840 --> 01:04:41.477
you'll make mistakes, but you know,
you were you were putting every iota of

01:04:41.560 --> 01:04:44.677
effort you could into into, you know, into

01:04:44.760 --> 01:04:47.037
um trying to get it right. Um you know,

01:04:47.120 --> 01:04:51.917
I think we have duties both to
individuals, you know, to to to to my to

01:04:52.000 --> 01:04:56.397
my co-founders, to all the other people
in my life, but you know, also to, you

01:04:56.480 --> 01:05:00.757
know, the the users of our technology,
to, you know, everyone else in the

01:05:00.840 --> 01:05:04.717
country and world as citizens. So,
you know, I think we have duties to all

01:05:04.800 --> 01:05:06.477
those people that would that we have to

01:05:06.560 --> 01:05:08.637
that we have to attend to.

01:05:08.720 --> 01:05:12.157
Uh and, you know, making sure that uh

01:05:12.240 --> 01:05:16.317
you know, at the end of it it was directed
at some purpose some consistent

01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:20.157
view of what we were trying
to accomplish in the world that the vision

01:05:20.240 --> 01:05:23.317
we were trying to make happen maybe
it doesn't happen maybe we screw it up

01:05:23.400 --> 01:05:25.317
maybe we make terrible mistakes but you

01:05:25.400 --> 01:05:27.717
know just just having the having the

01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:31.197
vision be clear and and and trying to to

01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:35.357
pursue it with with integrity if you if
you can do that of course you want the

01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:40.077
outcome too but it I think if doing
that is all you can control right and and

01:05:40.160 --> 01:05:43.117
more important ultimately
than the outcome.

01:05:43.200 --> 01:05:47.117
Thank you for growing us forward.
You you that's what you're doing. You're

01:05:47.200 --> 01:05:49.757
doing exactly what you
envisioned as little kids.

01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:51.577
>> It it is very strange but we are.

01:05:51.660 --> 01:05:56.517
[laughter] Yes it is.
Thank you thank you Dario and Daniela.

01:05:56.600 --> 01:06:00.437
You've given us a lot to think about.
Go well everybody go well.

01:06:00.520 --> 01:06:04.077
You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast
on YouTube and follow us on Spotify

01:06:04.160 --> 01:06:06.437
Apple podcasts or wherever you listen.

01:06:06.520 --> 01:06:10.320
I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.