# Elon Musk's AI Utopia: No Jobs And Infinite Money - Joe Rogan *Podcast TV* ยท https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn9XW7ycnGM ## Summary Joe Rogan and Elon Musk discuss a benign AI future in which sustainable abundance leads to a universal high income, eliminating poverty and the need to work. They explore how people would find meaning and purpose outside of work, and how crime might be reduced. Musk recommends Iain Banks' Culture books as the best fictional depiction of such a future. ## Key points - Musk says a benign AI scenario could deliver universal high income and eliminate poverty. - Rogan notes that universal high income would resemble the greatest socialist solution, though it comes from technology rather than socialist policy. - The vision is sustainable abundance: nature preserved, plus excellent medical care and goods and services for everyone. - People would need to find meaning and purpose in things they enjoy rather than in work. - Rogan argues much crime is financially motivated and could drop with universal high income, while Musk cautions some people commit crime regardless. - Musk recommends Iain Banks' Culture books as the least inaccurate science fiction vision of the future. - Musk says the future is attainable with AI and robotics if AI is steered toward maximal truth-seeking and curiosity. - Musk often asks people what future they want, and they generally agree sustainable abundance is a good one. ## Notes ### Universal high income in the benign scenario - Musk anticipates that in the benign AI scenario, the economy could boost to the point where a high income is available to almost everybody, essentially eliminating poverty. - Rogan jokes that even though socialists and Marxists oppose many of Musk's ideas, universal high income would be "the greatest socialist solution of all time." ### Sustainable abundance - Musk describes the goal as sustainable abundance: nature is preserved (national parks, the Amazon rainforest), while everyone has excellent medical care and the goods and services they want. - Rogan says it sounds like heaven, and that working only to pay bills and feed yourself sounds archaic given today's technology. ### Meaning and purpose after work - Musk raises the question of meaning: people must find meaning not derived from their work. - Rogan points to independently wealthy people who spend their time on things they enjoy; that could be the majority of people. - Rogan says people would have to rewire how they approach life, but that this is acceptable because it frees them from financial burden rather than enslaving them. ### Crime - Rogan asks how much crime would be solved by universal high income, noting that a greater percentage of crime is committed in poor, disenfranchised neighborhoods. - Musk responds that some people commit crime because they like it, and universal high income would not completely stop the instincts of someone who has lived that life for 40 years. ### Iain Banks' Culture books - Musk recommends the Iain Banks Culture books as the least inaccurate science fiction version of the future. - Banks started writing them in the 70s; Rogan notes the Scottish author published them from '87 to 2012, and they have 4.6 stars on Amazon. ### The path forward - Musk often asks people what future they want, and they generally agree sustainable abundance is a good one. - He says that future is attainable with AI and robotics, but not every path is good; if AI is pushed toward maximally truth-seeking and curious, it will want to take care of and foster humanity. ## Transcript [00:00] So you anticipate a basic income from that that the economy will boost to such an extent that a high income would be available to almost everybody. So we'd essentially eliminate poverty >> um in the benign scenario. Yes. And the funniest thing is even though like the socialists and the Marxists are in opposition to a lot of your ideas but if this gets implemented and you really can achieve universal high income that's the greatest socialist solution of all time like literally no one will have to work. >> Uh correct. Um like I said so so there is a benign scenario here which I think probably people will be happy with if if as long as we we achieve it which is sustainable abundance um which is if if um if everyone can [00:51] have every like like like if if you ask people like what's the future that you want >> um and uh I think a future where we haven't destroyed nature like you can still we have the national parks we have the the Amazon rainforest is still still there we We haven't paved we haven't paved the paved the rainforest. Like the natural beauty is still there, but but people have nonetheless everyone has abundance. Everyone has excellent medical care. Everyone has whatever goods and services they want. >> And we just it kind of sounds like heaven. >> It sounds like it is like the ideal socialist utopia. And this idea that the only thing you should be doing with your time is working in order to pay your bills and feed yourself sounds kind of [01:36] archaic considering the kind of technology that's at play. >> Yeah. >> Like a world where that's not your concern at all anymore. Everybody has money for food. Everybody has abundance. Everybody has electronics in their home. Everybody essentially has a high income. Now you can kind of do whatever you want and your day can now be exploring your interests doing things that you actually enjoy doing. Your purpose just has to shift. So instead of, you know, I'm a hard worker and this is what I do and that's how I that's how I define myself. No, now you can [ __ ] golf all day. You know, you can whatever it is that you enjoy doing can now be your main pursuit. >> Yeah. Well, that sounds crazy good. [02:25] >> Yeah, that's that's that's the benign scenario that we should be >> best ending to the movie is actually pretty good. >> Yes. Um like I think there's there is still this question of meaning um of like making sure people don't uh lose meaning, you know, like um so hopefully they can find meaning in ways that are not that that's not derived from their work >> and purpose. purpose for things that you, you know, find things that you do that you enjoy. But there's a lot of people that are independently wealthy that spend most of their time doing something they enjoy, >> right? >> And that could be the majority of people >> pretty much everyone. >> But we would have to rewire how people approach life. [03:07] >> Mhm. >> Which seems to be like acceptable because you're not asking them to be enslaved. You're exactly asking them the opposite. Like no longer be burdened by financial worries. Now go do what you like. >> Yes. >> Go [ __ ] test pizza. >> Do whatever you want. >> Um, pretty much. Um, so that's uh that's that's the that's the that's probably the best case outcome. >> That sounds like the best case outcome period for the future. If you're looking at like how much people have struggled just to feed themselves all throughout history, food, shelter, safety. If all of that stuff can be fixed, like how much would you solve a lot of the crime if there was a universal high income? Just think of that. Like how much of [04:00] crime is financially motivated? You know, the greater percentage of people that are committing crimes live in poor, disenfranchised neighborhoods. >> So if there's no such thing anymore, >> if you really can achieve universal high income >> Yeah. that this is it sounds like a utopian. >> Yes. Um I think some people may commit crime because they like committing crime. It just sure some amount of that is they just >> wild people out there. >> Yeah. Um >> and obviously they've become 40 years old living a life like that now all of a sudden universal high income is not going to completely stop their instincts. >> Yeah. Um, I mean, I guess if you want to have like like say read a science fiction book or some books that that are [04:43] probably an accurate or or the the least inaccurate version of the future, I'd say I'd recommend um the Ian Banks books called the the the culture books. It's not actually a series. It's a it's like ai sci-fi books about the future. They're generally called the culture books. Ian Banks culture books. It's worth reading those. >> When did he write these? >> He started writing them in the 70s. Um, and I think he I um the last one I think he was I think it was written just like around I don't know maybe 2010 or something. I'm not sure exactly. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Scottish author Ian Banks from ' 87 to 2012. >> Yeah. >> Interesting. >> But he but like he wrote the the like his first book consider like he started [05:29] writing that in the 70s. These books are incredible, by the way. >> Oh, >> incredible books. >> 4.6 stars on Amazon. >> Interesting. >> So, um, >> well, this is gives me hope. >> Uh, yeah. Yeah. >> This is the first time I've ever thought about it this way. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, if like I often ask people, what is the future that you want? and they have to think about it for a second because you know they're usually tied up in whatever their daily struggles are but but you say what is the future that you want? Um and um and generally sustainable abundance what do these folks say what about a future where there's sustainable abundance like oh yeah that's a pretty good future. Um so um you know if if and and and that that [06:25] future is attainable with uh AI and robotics um but but you know it's it's like I said there's not every path is a good path uh there's this it's but I think if we if we push it in the direction of um maximally truth seeeking and curious then I AI will want to take to to take care of humanity and foster uh foster humanity.