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So, one more episode, you interviewed
the lady Cecilia, who got Tinder

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swindled. Can you tell what happened
with the Tinder swindle situation?

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- So, the Tinder Swindler,
that was a person who pretended

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on Tinder to be a rich
guy who had this lavish

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lifestyle, and he would
match with women on

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Tinder, and very quickly
love-bomb them. So he would send

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them all kinds of messages
and immediately start

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being very emotional,
very sharing, pretend that he's

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messaging from his private jet,
or actually message from his private jet,

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but pretend that he's in love with
this person very quickly. And then

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he would invite women,
in this case Cecilia, to very expensive,

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luxurious dates. So he would whisk them
away to Paris, or he would show them

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his private jet, or he would take
them to a really expensive restaurant,

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almost to prove that he, in fact,
is this really wealthy guy.

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And he would simultaneously
be building up the story of

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a future together.
You see this in people who

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are really problematic in relationships in
a lot of ways. I mean, this is not just in

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scams or in criminal settings,
but problematic relationship

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styles often involve
someone who is creating this

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idea of a future together that you
can just see it now. You know,

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"Our kids in the garden running around.
You're the only one for me."

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That kind of language, like almost
planning your wedding on the third date.

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That kind of thing is what
he would weaponize. And she,

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Cecilia, was looking for love.
She wanted all of those

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things, and so it worked really well.
He ended up doing is

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defrauding her of lots of money,
and she ended up taking

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out loans, and her family were
giving her money to help what he

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was saying was this critical
situation. Very classic fraud.

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It's a critical situation where he
was being followed, he was under attack,

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and he needed her to pay for some things.
He needed her to pay for some flights,

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until she ran out of money.
And then she realized that

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this all was a big fraud.
This was a love scam. So,

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the reason that we spoke
with her is partly to show

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how it can happen, and I think
it's really important to remind

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people that this is something
everybody is capable of

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believing. Fraud works because people

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know what we want to hear, and they
tell us the things we want to hear. And

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so, I think all of us, there's a tailored
version of fraud that could appeal to

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basically everybody if they have
enough information about you.

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- Yeah, and by the way now, in modern
day, AI could probably better and

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better do that kind of thing.
Do the tailored

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version of the story
that you want to believe,

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and love is a topic on which
that would be especially effective.

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- Yeah, because you're
playing with people's emotions,

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and you know that they're
vulnerable in that

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way. And most people want to be
loved and want to love, and

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so it's a really manipulative way

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in, and I think it's really horrible,
but it's also something that we all

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almost underestimate. So we think,
"I would identify fraud. I would

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know if someone was trying to scam
me of money," until it happens to us,

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and then we go, "Oh,

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wait. That did just happen."
And then we get really embarrassed.

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And so I think talking
about it is really important,

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and seeing it as not this thing that

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happens to dumb people, because that
is sometimes how it's framed. It's like,

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"Oh, such an idiot."
"She was so gullible."

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Was she? Or was she just a nice
person who wanted to believe that this

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person was capable of loving her,
which I would hope we all are.

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- Yeah, and I hope she and others
that fall victim to that kind of thing

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don't become cynical and keep trying.

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- Yeah. Yeah, that's right, that's right.

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- Those kinds of things
can really destroy your

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ability to be vulnerable to the world.
But, I mean, it sounds like this same

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kind of thing is just commonplace in all
kinds of relationships. That's the puzzle

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that it could be a...
If you find yourself inside of a toxic

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relationship with a, quote,
"Love bombing," It could be a lot of

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manipulative, fraud type of things,
right, inside a relationship.

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...in this spectrum. - Well, and coercive
control is becoming more of an issue,

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where that's when somebody,

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for example, in a relationship takes
control of the finances, and that's

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often a man in a relationship.
That's sort of traditionally because it

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falls often along these gender lines.
But the problem is if that

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person then starts to weaponize the fact
that they're controlling the finances

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and starts using words like, "I'm going
to give you your allowance," instead

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of going, "You've paid as much into
this as I have, and so this is our shared

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money," and starts using
that and controlling things and

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controlling how the other person
lives in that relationship, that's when

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you get into things that are called
coercive control. And things like jealousy

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can also be used in that way.