WEBVTT

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The very big picture here is in 2017
a lot of people believed we lived at the

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end of history that there was no more
geopolitical movement of significance to

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happen and that the United Nations could
write mean letters to dissuade people

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from expansionist actions. The cynics
were right. The cynics who said no war

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is still a thing of the present.
You can't start working on bombs after the

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war has started and expect to have any
deterrent impact. You're just going to

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be part of fighting wars instead
of preventing them. All of this stuff

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that's been talked about my whole life
um is like suddenly happening. AI is

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clearly happening. We believe crypto
will happen. Do you think we're entering

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into this maybe unprecedented
20 30 year period of experience?

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>> Absolutely. I'll give you
my my thesis for optimism.

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>> Thanks for being here. I just watched
your um your uh Joe Rogan interview

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which everyone should watch.
There's talking parrots,

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>> UFOs, uh China uh

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>> UFOs again.
China UFOs and China. Just a

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lot of interesting stuff. Um, a AR

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helmet that you built. I mean, it's like
it's like nerd like Nirvana this video.

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So, you guys will have to watch.

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>> And then UFOs again.
>> It's like three or four times.

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>> And there's like the alien seed. Joe
Rogan has to always talk about the alien

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seed seed human evolution or some
or the uplift theory. Was that it?

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>> Talked about uplift theory taking
non-sensient species and bringing them

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up to or past the point of human
consciousness. It's a much it's a much

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it's like old style Joe Rogan of like
just like deep in every rabbit hole. We

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were going for it. >> It was incredible.

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>> The one problem I I I recommend going
on Joe Rogan if you get the chance, but

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>> the one problem is that all
of your messaging tools become completely

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unusable for a period of at least
48 hours because a lot of things like

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inboxes and your SMS, email, it relies
to some degree on there being a limited

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quantity. >> Yeah. Yeah.
And so if you have over a

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thousand messages come in from everyone

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you've ever known saying, "Bro,
so cool on Joe Rogan." Then everything

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else in between. And then they're like,
"Palmer, you must finish your security

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training today or you will lose your
clearance." And and they're like, "Did

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Palmer, did you get the message?"

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[laughter] No. No. Hang on.
Bro on your on your inbox.

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>> That's right, >> Joe Rogan.
That's awesome.

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>> Um anyway, so uh
so I I was lucky enough

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to meet you back in your Oculus days.

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That's right. >> Um,
which was I think the cool I

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remember Mark Andre and I flew down
and saw I remember the demo with the QR

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codes on the wall. You want to turn turn a
little bit? Um, the QR codes on the wall.

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>> I can't I can't cheat that well.
I'm not like a Broadway actor. [laughter]

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Yes, Chris. I remember.

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>> So, so uh the the
demo with the QR codes

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on the wall. Yep. Right. Obviously,
you know, and like it was so for those who

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don't know like the time like the first
developer kit you had tracking but you

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had to have uh the boxes outside. Well,
what it was is the first development kit

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didn't have any spatial tracking.
You couldn't track movement through space.

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It was just where you were looking.

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>> So, three three degrees off.

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>> Exactly. And so then we we were
developing a six off system and that was

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what became the Oculus Rift DK2. That's
right. That was I think we like that was

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the real first modern >> that was
the outside tracking. Is that right?

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>> We're experimenting with different
systems actually, you know. I mean that

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was an inside out system that you're
referring to. We ended up still using an

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outside in system for the DK2 and then

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even for the CV1. It took us years
to get inside out tracking robust enough

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that we could take it out of a room that
we would show investors and actually get

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it into people's people's living rooms
because we were talking a little bit

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about this earlier, but the edge cases
are what kills you. It's easy to make it

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work in a lab. Very very very easy.

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>> Not maybe not really easy, but it it's
relatively easy. What's hard is when you

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put it into a real room. Real rooms have
glass in them. They have reflections in

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them. They have other people walk through.
Now a a large chunk of your

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scene is moving. You have to reject that.
And that sounds easy for the bulk

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of it, but what about the things on the
fringes? What about what about um things

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like curtains that move a little bit?

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What about or like you you scan your
scene and then you come back and next

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time it's moved a just a little bit. Uh

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also fans, ceiling fans, the death of

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inside out tracking. Uh it's just

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rejecting all of those things

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>> becomes uh uh a hercilian challenge and

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we we eventually got it working >>
and and you had to fix that Oculus

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Quest. I need to do the optics like
the lenses, the screens were a big issue.

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You can talk about like for those who
don't know like the the only I believe

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only Samsung made what was it the system?

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>> Oh, it was even worse. Samsung was
the only company that was sort of able to

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make them. So, we were using Samsung
displays that were more advanced than

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was in their smartphones. We were
trying to take things that really were

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engineering samples and prototypes
and we were trying to put them into

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full-scale production. And uh so we had

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very low yield on those lines. We had to

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calc we we had to we had to test every

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display and reject ones that had dead
pixels. And in VR, you really can't get

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away with one dead pixel. Forget bright
pixels. There's even dead pixels. It's

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because you have uh it's so obviously
apparent. It's right in your face. It's

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a very large large, you know,
it's stretched out a big in a big way. And

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then also it's the mismatch between
your eyes. One of the are the schemes we

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experimented with actually
was if you had a dead pixel

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>> killing an an equivalent
pixel in your other eye.

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>> At least it's symmetric. It actually
made it much better. But it was the

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asymmetry. You've ever seen those cross
eye puzzles where you can, you know, you

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cross your eyes, you can see what's
different. That's what it's like having

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a dead pixel. You're constantly seeing
this asymmetric mismatched image and so

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those dots stand out so much. Anyway, we
ended up not doing that because it turns

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out customers still like disliked dead
pixels. But uh it was a tricky time.

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>> To me, it was a lesson of I had not
invested in hardware and like to me it

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was a lesson of why hardware is so hard.

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Like there was literally one company
Samsung and it like unless it was like

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you tell me couple hundred million
dollar order they weren't even going to

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in fact that's why isn't that
why you did the Samsung dealer

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VR was to get the screen there
was really no amount of money that would

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convince them to do what we need to make
our display but then we did a deal with

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them to basically be the software
and hardware designers behind the Samsung

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Gear VR product. So, if you bought V
Gear VR or if you got it for free with

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your phone, uh it was it was Oculus that
made made that happen. And we sold over

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10 million units, which was >>
But they were three off. They not six

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off, right? They were >> correct.
They were three off.

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>> I always didn't like three off because
I felt like it wasn't the real thing.

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>> I agree. It was not the real thing. I

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look people people forget that uh I was

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a hobbyist who started building VR
headsets as a 15-year-old and then I got

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all of you guys to give me
a bunch of money to do it. Yeah,

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>> it's a business. And so, uh, I like I
I I knew that threedolf was not going to

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actually work to build this VR revolution,

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but it got you guys to give us money
and like but like we got from DK1 to DK2

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very quickly. And here's the good news.

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DK1, we sold about 55,000 units, which
made it the best selling VR headset in

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history at the time. Um, by the way, I

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spec I the previous bestseller was the

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Philips Scuba in the US. It was the

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Takara Dino Visor in Japan. But combined

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those that same design sold exactly

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50,000 units. So the 55 was I I want I
we we we specifically sold that much so

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that the DK1 would be the best selling.

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And then we sold 250,000 DK2s.

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>> I'm not criticizing
you, by the way. I'm

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just like No, but once you I just meant
once you experience the six off, you're

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like, "Wow, that's the real thing."
Cuz you can like walk around the room all

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the people >> and it
was critical to get to that as

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fast as possible. I mean I I would argue
the DK1 days what like we knew we were

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living on borrowed time. We were living
in this world where people would see it

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and they'd get a fiveminute demo
and they say oh this is absolutely

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incredible but without six off tracking
it will make them sick and it will make

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them nauseous. Cyber sickness is caused
by a lot of things but the primary

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mechanism is that when you have what
your inner ear feels mismatch with what

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your eye sees. Your body believes that

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that mismatch must be due to a poison
that is interfering with your peripheral

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nervous system. And so what do you need to
do when you're poison? Expel the poison.

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>> And so we we we knew that we were on
borrowed time. It was a great demo piece

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of demo hardware, but we knew we needed
to get to really good six off tracking

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before too many people figured out what
was going on. And we did. And we did.

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>> Can I tell the the the selling story we
just talked about? Okay. I don't know if

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it's public. All right. So here's
my Palmer crypto story, which is um uh so

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>> I had even thought about this for so
many years. Well, one was we had a we

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had a call once where in like 2013
he's like I wanted to make the store all

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Bitcoin, right? And I was like, I love
you. You know, this is awesome. Um and

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and in fact, you were almost you
said the first customer of Coinbase.

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>> I So I literally was with Brian
Armstrong yesterday and we were going

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back through my emails to refresh our

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memory and I have an email chain of me

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with Brian Armstrong in uh late 2012

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talking about supporting that he's like
Coinbase is going to be rolling out a

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payments system. you'll be able to take
Bitcoin on your website and we were

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going to be their very first their very
first customer and I was grilling him. I

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said, "Why should I work with you
instead of Bit Pay?" Um, and [laughter]

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uh and uh but I I did have a I had
a wallet at Coinbase. I was an early

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Bitcoin guy like before there were any
exchanges on the Bitcoin Talk forums.

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Like I told you, I sold banner ads
on my website for 400 Bitcoin. I bought a

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Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, which was the
T-Mobile's first Galaxy phone for 8,000

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Bitcoin. Could you imagine if I wouldn't
have bought that phone? Um I could have

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done so much more Bitcoin gambling at

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the time and uh but uh but yeah like
yeah we we I mean we were we we almost

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made it happen. Then the lawyers came in.
This is the worst part. We got

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approval and then we got a new COO
and he brought in real lawyers and they

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stopped us. >> They stopped. They said how
do you handle the taxes on this? Is it an

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asset? Is it a currency?
It better not be or it's illegal.

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>> And then what happened?
This is my story

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but I just confirmed with you was true
that I'd heard it from Brandon. So

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Brendan's the CEO and uh and I sort
of would talk to him more about some of

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this stuff. Um so they got an offer. You
got an offer from Zuck went down to LA,

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saw the demo and was like this is the
greatest thing ever. And I think maybe

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on the you tell me on the spot offered
you a billion dollars or something.

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>> It was more or less on the spot.

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>> Yeah. More or less on the spot
offers him a billion dollars. And then I

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remember Brendan called me and he's like
we're going to turn down the billion.

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I'm like okay. You know like why?
And he's like well Palmer has a lot of

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Bitcoin and doesn't
really give a about money.

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>> And this was when
Bitcoin was $200. Like

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literally [laughter] that was I I never
actually asked Palmer until just now. I

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was like, "Was that true before I say it
on stage, but that was what Brendon told

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me was the reason." >> I
was checking I was [laughter] checking

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I was checking my witcoin
at $28. I am set.

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>> Yeah. And then but then he came back
and offered three billion. But but but the

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more important thing >> when I
when when Forbes gave me the 30

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under 30 uh award in 2014, they they
they they had everybody had to give one

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sentence of advice to young entrepreneurs.
And I was on the cover.

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It said Palmer Lucky. quote,
"Buy more Bitcoin." [laughter]

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So, I was I was the OG here. >> So,
so then then you eventually got to

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got to a higher price. But more
importantly, just just to give context,

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right, the real reason for selling was not
just like personal money. It was the

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fact that we we all saw the writing on the
wall, which was going to be billions more

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>> R&D. >> Well,
you remember the other side of

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this. I you are the other side
of the table on this. So, like for me, the

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founder position was uh I I wasn't

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interested in selling for money. Uh, and

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I also believed that Oculus was going
to be worth a lot more than a billion. Why

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would you sell out for a billion dollars
and give up control? Uh, the thing that

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convinced us is Mark came back and said,
"One, here's why we are aligned in ways

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that Microsoft and Google is not. Here's
why we want VR and AR to be the next

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platform, whereas they generally want
the status quo to continue." So, it

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convinced us that they really
did want what we wanted. Yeah.

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>> Which was not to sell us
for parts or use us to sell more Xbox.

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>> Yeah. >> No offense to Microsoft.
love those guys. But uh >> yeah,

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>> the the the real thing that made the
difference was that they were willing to

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put money behind that belief. They said,

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"We will put a billion dollars in R&D

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behind you every year for the
next 10 years, guaranteed."

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>> I think that was actually
in the deal, too, as I recall.

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>> It was it was it was that was the thing
that was most important to me because

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you start running the numbers. How am I
going to get a billion dollars a year to

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do uh R&D? You launching a platform
takes a lot of money. Xbox spent like

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five billion launching the first Xbox.

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You you it just it's the content is
expensive, the people are expensive, the

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marketing is expensive. And so we had
people like Chris coming and saying,

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"We're going to raise more money than
we've ever raised in any company in

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history." You you was a $75 million
round about we did was 75 million

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>> $250 million valuation.
It was a big deal back then.

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>> And uh for us
to raise billions, I'm not

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going to have any control of my company.

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It would have taken years if the market
had downturned and you have a burn rate

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that relies on a billion a year
in VC money. I mean, you're toast.

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>> I mean, there wasn't a back then there
wasn't a billion. Like we we literally

00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:33.757
had a Wall Street Journal article that we
had a billion dollar fund and it was

00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:35.917
like this bubble bubble thing.
That's right.

00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:39.277
>> So, we put 7 and a half% of our fund
like we could there's like a limit.

00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.917
Yeah. >> And so this
this offer from Mark, they

00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:43.277
said they would say they were committed.

00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.317
I I actually remember exactly the words
I said. It's it's in a book called The

00:12:46.400 --> 00:12:49.197
History of the Future. The author got
a bunch of Facebook internal. It's a good

00:12:49.280 --> 00:12:53.037
book. bunch of Facebook internal
documents, but uh the email that I sent

00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.917
out to the founders, they're like, "Oh,
you know, I think Zuck might be might be

00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.477
BSing us." I said, "If Zuck is playing

00:12:58.560 --> 00:13:03.117
us, he's Van Halen." Uh [laughter]
and uh and that that was really the thing

00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:04.717
that that convinced us in the end.

00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:07.197
>> And now they've spent
you said 80 billion.

00:13:07.280 --> 00:13:10.877
>> The official public number is $60
billion. The way that I look at this and

00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.117
the way that I the way that I convinced
myself that it wasn't so bad that I got

00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.117
fired from my own company that I I built

00:13:17.200 --> 00:13:19.277
as a youth and put my whole adult life

00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:24.477
into uh is that in the end uh Facebook
didn't really acquire Oculus. Uh Oculus

00:13:24.560 --> 00:13:28.237
took over Facebook. We became
the overwhelming and dominant component of

00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:34.077
their spend and their R&D and their
product product creation engine. That's

00:13:34.160 --> 00:13:34.957
pretty good. That's pretty good.

00:13:35.040 --> 00:13:38.797
>> Yeah. No, it's amazing. >> Yeah. Um,
>> and it only cost them $3 billion for me

00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:40.557
to take over. >> It's gotten good.
It's gotten good. The

00:13:40.640 --> 00:13:43.917
MetaQuest is good and I think the,
you know, it's like I I believe

00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:46.397
>> Quest was the last thing that I
worked on before they fired me.

00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:48.877
>> Is that right? >> Yeah.
>> I mean, I I still very much believe in

00:13:48.960 --> 00:13:52.317
VR. It's it's taken longer than I
expected. I mean, as has, you know,

00:13:52.400 --> 00:13:54.717
crypto and a bunch of stuff
can take longer, but

00:13:54.800 --> 00:13:57.837
>> it it is going to work. And there's
there's people who take a kind of glee

00:13:57.920 --> 00:13:59.837
in it failing. You got to actually look

00:13:59.920 --> 00:14:02.557
like like rationally it is not failing.

00:14:02.640 --> 00:14:07.277
I think it's not living up to what
certain people, myself included,

00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.277
believed that it would be. But when you
see these articles uh from from like the

00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.117
modern tech press is not the tech press.

00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:17.037
They're the anti-tech press. But when
you see modern anti-tech press articles,

00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:19.677
you know, why didn't VR succeed? They're

00:14:19.760 --> 00:14:24.557
not mentioning that the last version of
Quest sold 20 million units. They're not

00:14:24.640 --> 00:14:26.557
mentioning >> more than
Xbox at least one year.

00:14:26.640 --> 00:14:29.197
>> It sold way more than Xbox. It's and

00:14:29.280 --> 00:14:33.037
like Quest 2 sold better for the first

00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:34.957
three years that it existed than the

00:14:35.040 --> 00:14:37.037
Nintendo 64. Like, and so it's like,

00:14:37.120 --> 00:14:40.157
huh, what a failure. It only sold better

00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:44.957
than every game console I owned as a
child. Like, it's it's it's this it's

00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:48.077
it's because they're comparing it
to smartphones, which but smartphones are

00:14:48.160 --> 00:14:52.397
this unparalleled explosion in
technological change. Yeah. We're not as

00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.077
good as the biggest change in the way
we've used computers in history, but

00:14:56.160 --> 00:15:00.637
we're we're we're we're like the next
we're only one step down. So I I I'm

00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.637
like, by the way, that's just Quest 2.

00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:06.557
You also then had Quest 3 selling for
the same time as a while. Like you had,

00:15:06.640 --> 00:15:11.197
of course, PlayStation VR, which sold
about about 6 million units. We don't

00:15:11.280 --> 00:15:14.717
have numbers for PlayStation VR 2 yet,
but like they're definitely selling

00:15:14.800 --> 00:15:18.397
millions of units. You had HTC Vive,
which sold at least three or four

00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:23.197
million units. Like you're looking at a
world where there are by any measure low

00:15:23.280 --> 00:15:26.397
tens of millions of users of this
technology. That's that's pretty good.

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.797
There weren't that many people
using iPhones until the iPhone 3GS.

00:15:30.880 --> 00:15:33.997
>> Like like like it's like like you had
to get to the third generation of iPhones.

00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:37.517
>> 2012 that Facebook did their mobile
pivot. People forget that it was 5 years

00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.797
in that it actually was obvious to people
that it was like the new platform.

00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:41.837
>> That's right. That's right.

00:15:41.920 --> 00:15:45.597
>> Like it's like people have this
retrospect like this retcon kind of what

00:15:45.680 --> 00:15:47.517
happened. >> Well, I also
I I like to compare it to

00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:51.277
iPods, too. Um, and it's been a while
since I did this exercise, but we had

00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:53.357
some vanity metric where we pointed that

00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.957
the Oculus Rift in the first year

00:15:57.040 --> 00:16:01.597
outsold the first three years of the iPod.
And like it's true, iPod took off

00:16:01.680 --> 00:16:05.677
in an exponential way later. But by the
time it like those first three years, I

00:16:05.760 --> 00:16:09.597
mean, it was on the cover of major
magazines. It was winning gadget of the

00:16:09.680 --> 00:16:14.637
year. All the hottest like it was it was
an it thing to have and we were we were

00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:17.517
we were out selling it. It used
to be that success was enough. Yeah,

00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:21.757
>> that's not enough anymore. It needs to
be mega billion success or you're nobody.

00:16:21.840 --> 00:16:25.277
>> Well, the other thing is that there's
there obviously like the ergonomics, the

00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:28.637
the visuals, like they're just obviously
going to get better and they're an issue

00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.837
right now. Like it's kind of you get
sweaty. It's kind of like right and so

00:16:31.920 --> 00:16:34.797
like I feel like there's hard things
to predict like user behavior like but

00:16:34.880 --> 00:16:37.437
they're easy things like of course
they're going to get smaller, lighter,

00:16:37.520 --> 00:16:41.357
faster, more performant, better
graphics, better games. There's a

00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.397
there's a great article that's
definitely worth reading, very well

00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:49.117
written, um on palmerlucky.com called
free isn't cheap enough. It's the

00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:50.877
number one Palmer Lucky
blog on the internet.

00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.237
>> Free isn't cheap enough.
>> It's written by me. Um but it's this

00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.837
great piece where I laid out this
hypothesis years ago um called free

00:16:57.920 --> 00:17:00.797
isn't cheap enough. And I argue that the

00:17:00.880 --> 00:17:03.437
thing holding VR back is not the price

00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:07.837
per unit. Like it's it's not the fact
that it's $300 versus $200. It's the

00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:11.757
it's what you're talking about. It's
too heavy. It's too sweaty. quality and

00:17:11.840 --> 00:17:15.757
content pipeline is just not there to make
an average person, not a gamer, not

00:17:15.840 --> 00:17:18.397
an early adopter like your mom

00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.437
>> to use it. And so when people say, "I'm
not interested in VR," you can give them

00:17:23.520 --> 00:17:27.197
an easy hypothetical. Okay, well wait,
what if it was a pair of like sunglasses

00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:29.757
and it was as good as The Matrix and it

00:17:29.840 --> 00:17:34.637
were $99? Would you use it? And it
doesn't even unimaginative people are

00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:37.677
like, "Yeah, I like if I could do
literally anything that I could imagine

00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:41.277
in a pair of glasses, of course I would
do it, but that's not what VR is." And I

00:17:41.360 --> 00:17:44.397
say, "Well, then then we're just arguing
about when VR is going to take off. It's

00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.517
not if it will. We know the physics
allows us to get to something like what

00:17:47.600 --> 00:17:52.077
I've described." Um, and so I argued
that this relentless push on making it

00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.837
cheaper and cheaper is pointless because
even if it was free, it wouldn't be good

00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:59.517
enough for people to keep using. I would
posit you could give a VR headset as

00:17:59.600 --> 00:18:01.997
they exist today to every person in

00:18:02.080 --> 00:18:05.517
America and upwards of 90% of them would

00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:09.837
stop using them within a month because
it's just the quality is not quite there

00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:12.957
yet. In other words, free isn't
cheap enough to make VR succeed.

00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:15.677
>> Yeah, maybe even a higher price
better one would be even more successful.

00:18:15.760 --> 00:18:16.877
>> That was one of that was my argument.

00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.597
Unfortunately, people didn't listen to me
and they kept going and they launched

00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:23.437
the Oculus Go at $99 which went back
to being three off and that was a whole

00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:27.997
misadventure and uh [snorts] uh it it
ended up This is one of the things where

00:18:28.080 --> 00:18:31.517
me and John Carmarmac were actually
at odds. He thought that the price

00:18:31.600 --> 00:18:34.157
>> John Car very love the gear.
He always loved that.

00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.517
>> He is a he is a very sharp guy and he's
a man of the people. He wanted everybody

00:18:37.600 --> 00:18:43.357
to have VR but it turns out that Quest
at 399 hugely outsold Go at 99 and I

00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:46.317
think that says something about
the shape of it. Now you see Apple and

00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:49.117
Samsung attacking the high end of the
market. I think that has a higher chance

00:18:49.200 --> 00:18:53.837
of success. I'm I'm I'm praying that it
works this gen or we're going to have to

00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:55.357
go through another bit of a winter.

00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:58.797
>> Yeah. So you've done so moving on to
Andre. You've done an amazing job with

00:18:58.880 --> 00:19:01.037
Andre. I think some of the things
that stand out to me. I mean first of all

00:19:01.120 --> 00:19:05.277
it's just an iconic company
and congratulations success. Um but also

00:19:05.360 --> 00:19:09.677
like you started off you know negative
press like this this kind of sense you

00:19:09.760 --> 00:19:12.237
know >> we won the Wired
magazine worst person

00:19:12.320 --> 00:19:15.117
in Silicon Valley award. Uh Bloomberg

00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:17.197
called us the most controversial company

00:19:17.280 --> 00:19:19.597
in tech. So this was back when Andre was

00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.797
25 people building drone defense

00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:24.877
systems. Um and and by the way this was

00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:27.437
the same year that uh we work had be

00:19:27.520 --> 00:19:31.917
been indicted by the feds. Uh Uber had
just ousted all of its senior leaders

00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.157
and you beat them as >> No.
Yeah. The most controversial tech

00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.437
company was Homer Lucky and his 24 drone

00:19:37.520 --> 00:19:39.277
drone [laughter] people. Uh yeah it was

00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:44.957
incredible. So you so you went from that
to now 7,000 people employees. Um you

00:19:45.040 --> 00:19:47.757
know >> depends on how you count it,
but if you include contractors. Yeah.

00:19:47.840 --> 00:19:52.157
>> And and sort of I think an iconic
company that is I assume has gone from

00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:55.197
maybe having trouble recruiting in the
tell me trouble recruit in the beginning

00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:58.557
to now being a talent magnet.
>> Oh the opposite. Did you see our latest

00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.437
recruiting campaign?
>> It was called don't work at

00:20:01.520 --> 00:20:03.917
>> work because you don't
want the wrong people to work.

00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:07.277
>> It is it has become so when you're
when you when you're doing something early

00:20:07.360 --> 00:20:10.557
and it's really crazy and it's new.
This is true with Oculus, too.

00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.477
>> You only get the true believers,
the people who are there because they want

00:20:14.560 --> 00:20:17.757
to and they believe in what you're
doing and they could be making more money

00:20:17.840 --> 00:20:21.917
elsewhere. As long as they feel like
what they're doing is like, why would

00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.557
you go work at this startup that
everyone's laughing about and thinks is

00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:28.477
a joke like Oculus was early on to a lot
of people in tech, why would you go

00:20:28.560 --> 00:20:32.557
there if uh if if it's not even going
to pay you well? And the answer is because

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.277
you really believe in what they're doing.
And that's a natural filter for

00:20:35.360 --> 00:20:39.437
the lily pad jumpers, the thinkfluencers.

00:20:39.520 --> 00:20:41.277
You know the people [clears throat]
I'm talking about. You see them on the

00:20:41.360 --> 00:20:44.957
LinkedIn. You these are the people who
they're they're AI experts right now.

00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:49.917
They were AR experts a year ago. They
were VR experts a year before that. Um

00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:52.957
what I guess they Yeah, they were like,
you know, the social local mobile

00:20:53.040 --> 00:20:56.317
experts before that. Web 2.0. Yeah, I

00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.037
guarantee they all were web 2.0 people

00:20:59.120 --> 00:21:03.517
as well. And web 3.0.
Don't forget web 3.0. 5G.

00:21:03.600 --> 00:21:06.557
>> Yep. [laughter] >> You
people who have been to enough of

00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.717
tech conferences know exactly
what I'm talking about.

00:21:08.800 --> 00:21:11.917
>> That's hilarious. >> And so,
uh, the problem is Androl has

00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.197
now gotten to the point where there's
no filter. We are now cool enough to get

00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:16.477
those people. >> You're too cool now.

00:21:16.560 --> 00:21:19.677
>> And so, it's important to get the right
people. It's even more important to

00:21:19.760 --> 00:21:23.517
repel the wrong people. No matter how
well they dress themselves up and and

00:21:23.600 --> 00:21:26.317
hide their true nature.
>> How do you discover that? So, we did a

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.597
commercial where we showed people how
you have to go out in the field and work

00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:31.597
in the dirt and you and your hours are

00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:33.597
unpredictable and you might see your

00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:37.037
family, you also might not. Um, and we

00:21:37.120 --> 00:21:40.957
kind of and the ad there's a guy in the ad
and he he complains throughout the ad

00:21:41.040 --> 00:21:43.117
about how awful it is. And then at the

00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:48.477
end he says, "Yeah, don't work at Ander."
And uh and the idea was that to

00:21:48.560 --> 00:21:51.357
a certain type of person who's looking
for purpose and mission and adventure,

00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.957
like there's a point where he's like
on a boat with a bunch of special forces

00:21:55.040 --> 00:21:58.557
guys. They're on a little rubber boat
and he's bouncing around and you know

00:21:58.640 --> 00:22:02.477
and and going off to some, you know,
on some forward deployed location. We

00:22:02.560 --> 00:22:05.757
actually do this. We have a team
of hundreds of forward deployed engineers

00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:08.397
supporting a lot of these these missions

00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.237
>> and uh our customers love it for us.
But the idea was to a certain person, they

00:22:12.320 --> 00:22:15.357
see that and say, "Oh my gosh, this looks
like the coolest thing ever." And

00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.197
to the normal person who wants to play

00:22:17.280 --> 00:22:20.237
soccer and do yoga and and be home by

00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:24.797
55, they're going to be repelled by that.
And so I I by the way, same thing

00:22:24.880 --> 00:22:27.597
with investors. It's important to get
investors. At a certain point, you

00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:30.397
become so hot that everyone wants
to invest. And then you've have to figure

00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.917
out how will I repel investors who are
not mission aligned. So you have to say

00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:38.157
crazy stuff. You have to you have
to really push the limit. You have to you

00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.717
want to generate that conversation
in the LP meeting where they're like, are

00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:46.797
why are why are you investing in this
company? And you need them to to to to

00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:52.077
say we are 100% behind them and here's
why and you can't you can't have the you

00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.277
can't have the fairweather friends when
you're in in controversial business.

00:22:55.360 --> 00:22:58.237
>> And do you think you may manage to do
that with 7,000 people? You also must do

00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:01.997
like like in your interviews and your
process you must because they slip

00:23:02.080 --> 00:23:05.917
through the ads and they >> look
it's it it you'll never be perfect

00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:09.837
but everything you do makes the problem
slide this way on the scale towards

00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:11.837
better and so like like don't work at

00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:16.877
and as an ad campaign tripled our
recruitment on like in terms of incoming

00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:21.277
>> and and also we got a lot of more
qualified applicants mostly it brought

00:23:21.360 --> 00:23:23.757
in people who are unqualified but you
you're trying to move the move the

00:23:23.840 --> 00:23:27.437
needle and I I think it all it all it
all adds up we of course hire people who

00:23:27.520 --> 00:23:31.917
are bad fits and then
uh and then we fire them.

00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:36.317
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the um

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:37.757
>> they quit themselves sometimes.

00:23:37.840 --> 00:23:41.437
>> Yeah. The other thing I'll say and I'm
I'm not I'm only on the out I mean the

00:23:41.520 --> 00:23:44.717
firm's an investor but I'm not directly
involved but I I'm a fan from the

00:23:44.800 --> 00:23:48.477
outside and I am just amazed like so
many startups like they'll launch a

00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:52.157
product especially hardware like every
two years and I feel like every 3 weeks

00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:55.357
like I just saw you you had this new
AR helmet and three weeks ago you had I

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.797
think an autonomous submarine like you
just launch a lot of stuff it's kind of

00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:01.037
incredible like >> about 25
products the interesting thing

00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:03.517
about Anderol is what we're doing where

00:24:03.600 --> 00:24:08.077
we're launching many many many products
and where we are having indiv individual

00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:12.477
product teams on each of those that are
relatively lean is actually easier for

00:24:12.560 --> 00:24:15.917
me to run as a company than the companies
that have to invest in one or

00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.517
two products and grow them to serve
everybody. Like the ultimate example of

00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:22.877
this is these large enterprise software
companies where you have thousands of

00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.197
people working on one thing and it has
to serve everyone in you know commercial

00:24:27.280 --> 00:24:31.277
and consumers and enterprise
and government and it like that is a very

00:24:31.360 --> 00:24:33.037
hard problem to build a product with

00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:35.917
thousands of cooks in the kitchen. All I

00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:38.797
have to do is keep making new products

00:24:38.880 --> 00:24:43.437
and then I keep a small number of cooks
in each kitchen. And uh that that that

00:24:43.520 --> 00:24:47.037
that that ends up being a pretty
self-regulating strategy. People are

00:24:47.120 --> 00:24:50.957
tribal. People work well with a certain
number of people. Like there's only so

00:24:51.040 --> 00:24:54.317
many people you can have very high trust
in where you trust they're truly doing

00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.197
things for the right reason. You
and where you understand what everyone is

00:24:57.280 --> 00:24:59.517
doing around you. It's not that much

00:24:59.600 --> 00:25:01.757
bigger than the size of a home

00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:04.477
construction crew or a small game

00:25:04.560 --> 00:25:06.877
development team or that you kind of see

00:25:06.960 --> 00:25:11.597
these natural themes emerge over
and over again across societies and across

00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:13.597
history where it's it's these groups of

00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:15.517
a certain size. you I mean the founding

00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:21.997
fathers and uh I'm trying to keep every
business unit as close to that size as I

00:25:22.080 --> 00:25:25.757
can >> and they're all sort of engineers
and product people not I assume you try to

00:25:25.840 --> 00:25:29.597
eliminate middle management and lay >>
there there was a very brief period very

00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.677
early in Andreal's history where we
had more lawyers and lobbyists than

00:25:33.760 --> 00:25:37.437
engineers it was very very brief but you
had we had to overinvest in that when

00:25:37.520 --> 00:25:41.837
you're starting a company in such
a complianceheavy regulatoryheavy

00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:46.157
government interfaceheavy side we have
never ever had that problem since. I'd

00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:50.557
say we're about 85% engineering. So,
yeah, we we have we have quite little

00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:54.157
overhead. We don't have a ton of middle
management. We have a lot like we

00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:58.557
basically have project and team leads
that are typically engineers who came up

00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:02.957
out of other programs. Like one of our
program leads is a guy um we call him

00:26:03.040 --> 00:26:06.877
the king intern because he started he
was Andre's first intern. So, he started

00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.757
when he was 19 years old at Anderl. We

00:26:09.840 --> 00:26:11.677
were his summer internship and then he

00:26:11.760 --> 00:26:14.477
quit school, came to Anderl and uh

00:26:14.560 --> 00:26:19.117
within 12 months was leading a product
and now he's leading an entire business

00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.797
division. Uh and like we've done
a pretty good job of making a meritocracy

00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:25.997
where people see the people
in leadership roles are themselves

00:26:26.080 --> 00:26:29.037
engineers who have cut their teeth
and proven themselves inside of Anderol.

00:26:29.120 --> 00:26:31.437
>> Yeah. Um >> and when
you're growing quickly, it's a

00:26:31.520 --> 00:26:34.397
lot easier. Like this is a harder
strategy for a stable company and I

00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:37.597
can't recommend it. But when you're
introducing products at a sufficiently

00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:41.117
high rate, there's always a place
for you to take these people to to pluck

00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:43.197
them out and say, "You're going to be
in charge of this new product and you're

00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:46.237
going to make it work using your
experience of how to work inside of our

00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:50.157
organization and the fact that people
know you and trust you." Uh, static

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.437
organizations struggle with this because
like there just aren't enough roles.

00:26:53.520 --> 00:26:58.637
It's the it's the how many senior VPs
are there problem. Um, it's uh it's it's

00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:01.757
nice to be growing fast. And how do you
come up like I guess a couple questions

00:27:01.840 --> 00:27:05.517
on this like one how do you you seem
to follow like everything in hardware and

00:27:05.600 --> 00:27:08.077
software [laughter] I watch
your videos and so like I'm

00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:10.557
curious how you do that and also how do
you come up with all the ideas for the

00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.237
products like is that is that bottoms up
is it you is it like how do you keep it

00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:17.037
like an active R&D >> I used
to come up with everything I now

00:27:17.120 --> 00:27:19.997
come up with about half of our products
the other half come through a

00:27:20.080 --> 00:27:23.597
combination of customer demand
and people in the teams coming up with

00:27:23.680 --> 00:27:27.037
solutions to problems and that's good
like that the the term in the terminal

00:27:27.120 --> 00:27:30.877
stage every idea I have should
worse than the ones my employees are

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:34.717
generating. Um, >> I mean,
that could even be the case

00:27:34.800 --> 00:27:39.037
today, but I'm the guy in charge.
I'm the one guy that can't be fired. So,

00:27:39.120 --> 00:27:40.477
half the ideas are still mine.

00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:44.077
Hopefully, that shrinks over time.
Um, sorry, what was the other bit of that

00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:46.397
question that was in terms >> Well,
just like I'm just curious like

00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:47.917
how you kind of keep up with the stuff.

00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:49.277
>> How do I keep up with weird stuff? I

00:27:49.360 --> 00:27:52.397
would never admit so in uh in public,

00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:56.957
but I do actually keep up
with the academic literature. Oh,

00:27:57.040 --> 00:28:00.717
>> um I'm not I >> like which
like of the the computer science

00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:04.477
>> in any space that I'm interested in.
So like I I am reading all the journals

00:28:04.560 --> 00:28:08.077
that mention synthetic longchain
hydrocarbons. I'm a huge believer in

00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.157
that. It's going to change everything
and it's going to make this whole

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.397
battery electric nonsense look like the

00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:14.317
multi- trillion dollar farce that it is,

00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:19.437
especially in aviation. Um this is a long
topic, but like I'm not saying, by

00:28:19.520 --> 00:28:22.877
the way, the best performers in that
area are not necessarily academic, but

00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:25.917
by staying on top of the academic side,
you'll never be too far behind. People

00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.637
people in academia don't have to create
or produce or sell necessarily. Their

00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:34.637
job is just to be on the front lines
of what's new and so they'll never be too

00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.797
far behind that most of the time. Same
thing with VR. Same thing with optics.

00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:40.877
Same thing like >> there's
like good academic stuff in VR

00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.197
in some of these areas. >> No,
no, there's nothing good but but

00:28:43.280 --> 00:28:46.157
they talk about everything.
Okay. Um it's it's it's what it's

00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:49.037
>> I think of Yeah. I just don't think >>
think think of it this way. Like suppose

00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:51.117
that you were going to try to like you

00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:54.397
want to keep up to date with new curved

00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:58.557
polarizer materials that are used
for making pancake optics where you're

00:28:58.640 --> 00:29:01.917
folding optical paths on top
of themselves. You're like I want to stay

00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:05.117
on top of this. What are you going to do?
Are you going to read press releases

00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:09.037
that of all the companies that are uh
you know touting this stuff uh that the

00:29:09.120 --> 00:29:12.477
company that the manufacturers don't
tout this stuff? Like how are you going

00:29:12.560 --> 00:29:15.597
to stay on top of the fact that there
even are new advancements? And it turns

00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:18.637
out a pretty good way is to just follow
the academic literature where you have

00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:21.517
people that are doing research on these
things and then they'll like their jobs

00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:25.997
say you know oh and you know s such and
such group in in China is doing this and

00:29:26.080 --> 00:29:28.957
there's other company that has this
approach. What we propose is a novel

00:29:29.040 --> 00:29:32.717
approach to X Y and Z. Now they probably
can't actually do it and they're never

00:29:32.800 --> 00:29:35.757
going to pull off anything of interest
but they've still done like the the the

00:29:35.840 --> 00:29:39.757
other work. I I am basically using
them as my outsource research team on

00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:43.597
anything. If I need to find out what the
state of the art on something is, I can

00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:46.157
trust the academics somewhat more than

00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.717
the press because the press just hates
everything. And so, and also they're

00:29:50.800 --> 00:29:54.477
lazy. They don't they they they're not
they're not digging deep. They they are

00:29:54.560 --> 00:29:58.397
they're basically re the press used
to regurgitate what was given to them in

00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.877
press releases positively. Now they just
regurgitate it and and the and the the

00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.477
tenor has changed, but it's the same
it's the same activity. It's just

00:30:06.560 --> 00:30:09.357
repeating what's in the press release
and the commentary around it is what's

00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:12.157
changed. >> Uh so yeah,
actually I stay up to date a

00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:16.477
lot by reading academic academic papers
and journals that are focused on the

00:30:16.560 --> 00:30:19.277
things that I'm interested in. The
academics I also love when they complain

00:30:19.360 --> 00:30:20.877
about people in industry like nuclear.

00:30:20.960 --> 00:30:23.677
If you want to stay on top of what's
what's what's going on in nuclear and

00:30:23.760 --> 00:30:27.357
you want kind of the contrarian view,
follow what the academics are saying

00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:31.357
about modern small modular reactors
and you'll see them talking about new

00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.637
developments and then complaining about
how they don't work. And sometimes their

00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:37.357
complaints are good and sometimes
they make absolutely no sense. But like

00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:38.637
>> it tells you what to look at.

00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.757
>> It tells you what to look at and
and like I I I don't have enough time to

00:30:41.840 --> 00:30:44.877
become a real expert [clears throat]
on this stuff. Like I I just people didn't

00:30:44.960 --> 00:30:47.597
know I used to be a journalism major
till I dropped out. I was the online

00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:51.197
editor of the Daily 49er at Cal State
Long Beach, which was the fourth largest

00:30:51.280 --> 00:30:53.437
student run paper
in the country at the time.

00:30:53.520 --> 00:30:55.197
>> And it's not the Daily 49er anymore.

00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:58.557
It's now the Daily Breeze because 49er
is a reference to the Gold Rush. And the

00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.557
gold rush is racist racist now.
Um that's I'm not kidding. that's why they

00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:04.717
did it, which is crazy cuz this team is

00:31:04.800 --> 00:31:07.757
still the 49ers. So, how could that be?

00:31:07.840 --> 00:31:11.757
Anyway, um the the the the the the paper

00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:15.277
decided its name was racist and so they
would rename it after a hundred plus

00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:18.397
years. >> Um but you
I what I realized as a

00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:23.277
journalist is you can only really follow
so many things yourself directly from

00:31:23.360 --> 00:31:26.317
first sources. like if you you could
choose a beat and you could stay on top

00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:29.997
of it, but you have to outsource at some
point the research to other people to

00:31:30.080 --> 00:31:33.997
consolidate and and bring these things
together. I'm very bullish on using AI

00:31:34.080 --> 00:31:37.197
at my direction to do this. I want
to be able to send an AI and say scrape

00:31:37.280 --> 00:31:40.157
literally everything, the press releases,
the social media chatter, the

00:31:40.240 --> 00:31:44.637
academic stuff, and then give me give
me a summary that is not contaminated by

00:31:44.720 --> 00:31:47.517
some profit interest
or ideological interest.

00:31:47.600 --> 00:31:51.437
>> Yeah, you don't have to convince
this crowd that the press is anti-tech.

00:31:51.520 --> 00:31:55.597
Crypto has been the most tra like it's
just unbelievable like for we've tried

00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:59.757
for 12 years to have like one reasonable
like article printed about like the

00:31:59.840 --> 00:32:02.477
actual stuff going on. >> Well,
and the AI stuff is so hard.

00:32:02.560 --> 00:32:05.117
>> The AI start they're starting to feel
it now with all these like fake water

00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:07.357
articles and things and it's
going to just heat up more on the

00:32:07.440 --> 00:32:10.797
>> It's so funny when people they look
at and say, "Oh, look at Anderl trying to

00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:14.957
jump onto the AI grift trying to pretend
that all their stuff's about AI.

00:32:15.040 --> 00:32:16.157
>> Been doing it for eight years.

00:32:16.240 --> 00:32:17.837
>> The name of my company is literally

00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:19.917
Anderil Industries. The acronym is

00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:23.197
literally AI. Like [laughter] it's it is

00:32:23.280 --> 00:32:27.357
so we we didn't talk about it in the early
days because AI wasn't cool almost

00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:32.397
nine years ago. It was like cold fusion
or VR nonsense for the future. Never in

00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.157
the present. Uh but yeah, it's so funny

00:32:34.240 --> 00:32:36.717
to be painted by the media as a as as an

00:32:36.800 --> 00:32:39.517
AI uh you know coattail writer when in

00:32:39.600 --> 00:32:44.477
fact I've I've been been there before
LLMs were were were were a glimmer in

00:32:44.560 --> 00:32:47.597
most people's eye. Yeah. only because
John Carmarmac told me he told me AI was

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:49.837
going to work and that
was why I believed him.

00:32:49.920 --> 00:32:50.957
>> That's a good person to listen to.

00:32:51.040 --> 00:32:52.077
>> He's a good person to listen to.

00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:55.837
>> So a big like kind of premise I think
of Andrew, tell me if I'm wrong is is the

00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.717
ri growing rivalry between the US and
China and I've heard you talk about this

00:32:58.800 --> 00:33:02.237
in podcast, but you don't think that on
the current trajectory with the defense

00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:06.477
contractors and technology industry
that were well set up for that, right?

00:33:06.560 --> 00:33:07.837
>> And so maybe you
could talk a little bit

00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:11.757
I I would love to hear your thoughts on
that rivalry and then specifically on uh

00:33:11.840 --> 00:33:16.397
how you see kind of handicap
the technology race. So AI and you know

00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.077
robotics >> we're spending way too much
we're getting way too little and we're not

00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.197
progressing at the rate that
our geopolitical adversaries are

00:33:23.280 --> 00:33:27.197
>> and if it were a perfect if it were
peace time and there was no inkling of

00:33:27.280 --> 00:33:31.917
conflict for us or our allies that maybe
wouldn't be a problem. Um but that's not

00:33:32.000 --> 00:33:33.597
the world that we live in

00:33:33.680 --> 00:33:37.597
>> and so uh the rivalry
with China is is a

00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.037
big one. It was a little broader than
that. I mean, when we started Anderal,

00:33:41.120 --> 00:33:44.237
if you look back at the first first
pitch deck, you remember there's a page

00:33:44.320 --> 00:33:48.237
with a bear and a pair with
a page with a dragon. And we

00:33:48.320 --> 00:33:52.477
lay out what the Chinese road map looks
like. And we laid out what the Russian

00:33:52.560 --> 00:33:55.357
road map looked like. And we literally
lay out that Russia is going to invade

00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.957
Ukraine. They intend to take it by force.
We there's a great quote by Putin

00:33:59.040 --> 00:34:03.597
where he says, uh, the country that wins
in the sphere of AI will become the

00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:07.197
ruler of the entire world. I have a huge
amount of respect for that quote. First

00:34:07.280 --> 00:34:09.517
of all, like what an incredible amount

00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:12.957
of of style there. Um, I'm not saying

00:34:13.040 --> 00:34:16.957
that I like Putin. I super don't.
I arguably started a company to fight

00:34:17.040 --> 00:34:21.037
Putin. I'm personally sanctioned
in Russia and Bellarus. I literally cannot

00:34:21.120 --> 00:34:24.637
go there without being arrested
by Russian security forces. So, don't take

00:34:24.720 --> 00:34:28.077
this in like the I'm going to nail
Palmer to the wall. He said something

00:34:28.160 --> 00:34:32.157
good about Putin. But let's like let's
be honest, that's some really good like

00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:37.837
Bond villain level. Yes. they will
become the ruler of THE ENTIRE WORLD.

00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:40.077
>> YOU GOT to understand. >> And he
said that along like you said it was

00:34:40.160 --> 00:34:43.117
>> he said that speaking to a bunch
of technical students at a technical high

00:34:43.200 --> 00:34:46.877
school. >> But a long time ago you're
saying >> yeah back in 2007 like

00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:49.597
>> seven. Okay.
>> This this guy was way like Putin must

00:34:49.680 --> 00:34:52.637
read a lot of science fiction.
He was >> that's really early. I mean

00:34:52.720 --> 00:34:54.237
>> well remember we were quoting it in an

00:34:54.320 --> 00:34:56.957
Andal pitch deck in early 2017 before AI

00:34:57.040 --> 00:35:00.077
was cool at all. So put like man I would

00:35:00.160 --> 00:35:05.197
kill for a US leader to be that far ahead.
Could you imagine if you had if

00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:07.757
you had somebody come out I won't even
name who but if you had somebody come

00:35:07.840 --> 00:35:12.637
out in the White House he says we
have to hold the Lraange points.

00:35:12.720 --> 00:35:16.637
Someone has to have the high ground
in orbit. The cis lunar insertion and

00:35:16.720 --> 00:35:19.517
transfer pads must be protected if we're

00:35:19.600 --> 00:35:22.137
going to extract resources from

00:35:22.220 --> 00:35:25.197
[laughter] the belt. Asteroids. Some of

00:35:25.280 --> 00:35:27.917
you know what I'm talking about.

00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:32.477
And imagine if that was also [applause]
>> could you imagine if that was like from

00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:36.477
his own mind and not not something that
somebody wrote that that is Putin. He's

00:35:36.560 --> 00:35:39.597
a competent adversary
in these ways. And so

00:35:39.680 --> 00:35:44.077
>> um I I yeah like that was that was very
much part of the rivalry. The problem is

00:35:44.160 --> 00:35:47.757
of course that now that rivalry is kind
of reached its terminal stage, right?

00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:49.117
He's made his move on Ukraine.

00:35:49.200 --> 00:35:51.757
Everyone's seen that it's happening.
And so the remaining one that we can

00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:54.477
influence is China. >> And you
called out all the drone stuff.

00:35:54.560 --> 00:35:56.877
I mean you knew that was all going to h
all the stuff. That's right. Like the

00:35:56.960 --> 00:35:59.917
Ukraine drone. >> We we were
talking about literally I

00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:03.597
mean our deck laid out exactly what
was going to happen. And it said that

00:36:03.680 --> 00:36:06.877
warfare is going to be about a lot
of these proliferated systems. A lot like

00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.157
it's going to move away from exquisite
things that you build up capacity over

00:36:10.240 --> 00:36:13.357
decades to and said lower-end systems
that you can actually manufacture at a

00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:16.637
rate that is relevant to an ongoing
conflict. And of course that's exactly

00:36:16.720 --> 00:36:21.277
what's what what what's what's exactly
what's happened in Russia. You the very

00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.597
big picture here is we were living
in a world in 2017 where a lot of people

00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:29.357
believed we lived at the end of history
that there was no more geopolitical

00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:33.677
movement of significance to happen
and that the United Nations could write

00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:36.157
>> mean letters to dissuade people from

00:36:36.240 --> 00:36:37.917
expansionist actions. And now what we're

00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:41.197
seeing playing out is uh kind of the

00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.757
more cynical version of of of we're
seeing the cynics the cynics were right.

00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:49.997
The cynics who said no war is still
a thing of the present. hopefully not the

00:36:50.080 --> 00:36:53.757
future. Uh, and it's a it's a good thing
that companies like Anderrol, I think,

00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:55.917
were were getting started early on this

00:36:56.000 --> 00:36:58.717
because imagine if Andre was started

00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.797
right as

00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:03.357
conflict kicked off in Europe or worse,

00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.077
being started right as conflict kicks

00:37:06.160 --> 00:37:09.037
off over Taiwan uh, with China. It's

00:37:09.120 --> 00:37:11.277
it's too late. You you can't start

00:37:11.360 --> 00:37:16.397
working on bombs after the war has
started and expect to have any deterrent

00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:19.277
impact. you're just going to be part of
fighting wars instead of preventing them.

00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:23.197
>> How do you like handicap? So I always
I like with AI I always hear about China

00:37:23.280 --> 00:37:24.717
US. Now I don't hear Russia as much.

00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:26.077
Maybe they're good at I don't know.

00:37:26.160 --> 00:37:27.837
>> But but then like how
do you handicap it? Like

00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.957
>> well see that's that
that that's true today.

00:37:31.040 --> 00:37:34.077
>> It's Putin didn't
say that thinking they

00:37:34.160 --> 00:37:38.157
he wasn't saying I think AI is going
to acrue to the winner and I bet the US is

00:37:38.240 --> 00:37:41.437
going to beat me. They were investing
a lot. It's just they they didn't take the

00:37:41.520 --> 00:37:45.117
winning path, right? like they they
didn't do some of these like the kind of

00:37:45.200 --> 00:37:48.957
attentionbased models, focus based
models like it just that wasn't the path

00:37:49.040 --> 00:37:51.277
they went on.
They didn't get the winning path.

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:55.357
>> And so you're right, it's mostly US and
China now. Russia's trying to catch up.

00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:59.117
But he he he said this at a time where
he thought that was going to be their

00:37:59.200 --> 00:38:02.557
asymmetric advantage. He thought they
were going to figure out all the all the

00:38:02.640 --> 00:38:05.517
killer drone stuff way ahead
of everybody else and he would have put it

00:38:05.600 --> 00:38:07.677
to work before anyone else even knew how

00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:09.677
to respond. Imagine if Putin had made

00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:12.877
chat GPT is kind of the the simplified

00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:15.117
version I use for members of Congress.

00:38:15.200 --> 00:38:19.117
>> Yeah. But like with the way I sort
of like America has we have this sort of

00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:22.717
decentralized capitalist system. China
has a centralized obviously command and

00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:25.117
control. >> They have
more people. They're very

00:38:25.200 --> 00:38:28.077
smart. The deepseek and all these other
things show they caught up very quickly.

00:38:28.160 --> 00:38:29.917
They're ahead of manufacturing. Yep.

00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.517
Like you we you know on the flip side
like I think this superpower of the

00:38:33.600 --> 00:38:35.997
United States right is the very fact
that every thing everyone's complaining

00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:39.277
about in the press right now which is we
just like the hyperscalers just invested

00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:43.117
a trillion dollars in like and is it
a bubble maybe? Who knows? But it's a good

00:38:43.200 --> 00:38:45.357
thing because this is what we do.
This is what we're good at.

00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.597
>> It's an advantage we have.
>> It's the animal it's the capitalist

00:38:47.680 --> 00:38:50.637
animal spirits, right? Like it's like
the you know it's like the internet.

00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:53.437
It's like building out the fiber.
Like you need you need this excitement and

00:38:53.520 --> 00:38:55.277
capitalism. >> We need
to choose advantages that the

00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:59.437
United States has. Like this. This is
the one issue with the one issue with

00:38:59.520 --> 00:39:03.037
re-industrialization is that China has
already done a really good job there.

00:39:03.120 --> 00:39:05.197
I'm not saying we shouldn't. We should.

00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:08.957
But we need advantages that take
advantage of our better financial

00:39:09.040 --> 00:39:13.037
apparatus. Arguably that take better
advantage of our cultural apparatus.

00:39:13.120 --> 00:39:16.877
Certainly that take advantage of a unique
fact which is the US has friends

00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:19.597
or at least partners all over the world.

00:39:19.680 --> 00:39:23.837
China doesn't have that. China has not
convinced the world to host the Chinese

00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:27.837
military, to host Chinese culture.
The United States needs to lean into the

00:39:27.920 --> 00:39:31.837
remaining advantages we do have.
We should re-industrialize. I'm not saying

00:39:31.920 --> 00:39:35.517
we can win, you know, all all on our on,
you know, we can't win without doing

00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:39.037
that, but there it's it's
not enough on its own.

00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:44.397
>> Um, and you you recently started a like
a stable coin related um crypto like

00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:46.477
bank, right? >> It's a little
more boring than that.

00:39:46.560 --> 00:39:50.157
Everyone's calling it Palmer Ly's crypto
bank. It's it's not so much a crypto

00:39:50.240 --> 00:39:53.997
bank as a bank that does support stable
coin deposits and transfers because of

00:39:54.080 --> 00:39:57.117
course any bank is going to need
to support these things. If you want 24/7

00:39:57.200 --> 00:40:02.157
liquidity and you want 247 settlement
and you want it every day of the year

00:40:02.240 --> 00:40:05.037
with every country around the world,
you're going to have to do it via stable

00:40:05.120 --> 00:40:08.877
coins like and like reg.
>> It's just obvious how that's going to

00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:12.317
happen. So everyone's seized on Palmer
Lucky is doing all this crypto stuff.

00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.597
It's actually way more boring. It's it's
a bank that's a modern bank in a way.

00:40:15.680 --> 00:40:17.517
Like >> in in in many
ways it's the most boring

00:40:17.600 --> 00:40:20.077
bank there could be. We originally were
thinking of calling it the real bank,

00:40:20.160 --> 00:40:25.517
but it turns out that the slogan I think
of City Bank is uh the real the it's the

00:40:25.600 --> 00:40:28.477
real something bank. I can't remember
what it was. It's not a good slogan.

00:40:28.560 --> 00:40:32.477
Okay. >> Um anyway, we're going to call
it the real bank, but it was a very simple

00:40:32.560 --> 00:40:34.557
thought. Okay, SVB is collapsing.

00:40:34.640 --> 00:40:36.957
>> Yeah. >> Turns out
that there's more risk in the

00:40:37.040 --> 00:40:40.797
system than people thought. uh it's
potentially more widespread and like

00:40:40.880 --> 00:40:44.877
like yes SVB did some things that someone
could avoid but there's a lot of

00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:48.477
things that are inherent to the way that
current banking is done. So our idea was

00:40:48.560 --> 00:40:50.237
what would a bank look like if its job

00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.877
was to serve companies who more than

00:40:52.960 --> 00:40:57.837
every half percent of interest on their
deposits actually just really needs

00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.677
their money to be there and not
disappear like that. So, so it's narrow

00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:02.877
banking, not fractional reserve.

00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.717
>> I I So, >> yeah, [snorts] >> I
think that there needs to be onetoone

00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.157
banking in the United States.
Not all banking. I'm not saying every bank

00:41:10.240 --> 00:41:13.597
should be like this, but the product
should be available. I started going

00:41:13.680 --> 00:41:16.317
around talking to banks. I said, "All
right, I've got this thing. I want you

00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.677
to take my money >> and then
you have it when I come to get

00:41:19.760 --> 00:41:23.037
it. [laughter] It's the It's
the only thing you're going to do."

00:41:23.120 --> 00:41:25.037
>> It's called It's called, by the way,
it's called narrow banking. And like

00:41:25.120 --> 00:41:27.917
there was a there was actually a company
that tried to do it recently and under

00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:29.357
the B administration
and they got shot down

00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.397
>> and the government doesn't want anyone
to do this is part of the crazy scheme.

00:41:32.480 --> 00:41:36.397
I know like no like like this there's
a reason the banks aren't doing this and

00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.037
it's not just that nobody's smart. It's
that the government doesn't really want

00:41:39.120 --> 00:41:40.637
it to happen. >> Well yeah
they claim it's because then

00:41:40.720 --> 00:41:43.837
you would hurt the credit system and all
those other things. But it's to your

00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:46.717
point I think shouldn't you be able
to like have at least some people opt out

00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:50.157
and actually have that has your put your
money there. Well, and by the way, you

00:41:50.240 --> 00:41:53.197
can, you know, you can do it if you have
a T- bill, for example, then you have a

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:56.717
QIP or there custodial. It's bankruptcy
remote. And so, it's effectively

00:41:56.800 --> 00:41:59.437
available to wealthier people,
but not to the retail

00:41:59.520 --> 00:42:02.637
>> and and not available or a lot of these
tech companies, including smaller tech.

00:42:02.720 --> 00:42:05.677
So, that was the question. How do we
make a bank that would give people the

00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:09.197
things they need from a bank without
the parts that are going to destroy their

00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:12.317
entire business? I mean, if if the like
let's be real, if the federal government

00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:14.637
would not have bailed out SVB customers

00:42:14.720 --> 00:42:19.357
far beyond what the law required, and if
the Biden administration would not have

00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:24.077
more or less spuriously declared
that the Signature Bank deal was actually

00:42:24.160 --> 00:42:27.597
signs of systemic collapse, which
is nonsense. Like, if they wouldn't have

00:42:27.680 --> 00:42:31.917
done that, it would have wiped out a lot
of tech companies. And so, that that

00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:34.717
what what we're trying to do with Arabore
is is actually a lot more boring

00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.877
than many people think, but there is there
is a market for it. Imagine a bank

00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:43.037
that doesn't debank you and has
your money when you want it and actually

00:42:43.120 --> 00:42:46.237
maybe gives you interest would be
another radical idea which you know

00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:49.277
Jennif that's the big debate
point in the stable coin bill

00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.717
>> is that they're trying to undo this now
is this thing where you actually pay

00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.637
interest to customers >> I'm
very famili you can pay rewards to

00:42:56.720 --> 00:42:59.357
customers but you can't pay >> so
even that they're trying to ban rewards

00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:02.317
>> they're trying well that that was like
yeah that was the negotiated now they're

00:43:02.400 --> 00:43:05.677
trying to get they're trying to undo
the deal the way that I look at look at it

00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:09.117
is this there is a lot more risk in
banking system than anyone is willing to

00:43:09.200 --> 00:43:10.877
admit. It only works if everyone stays

00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:13.357
in the matrix and doesn't doesn't look

00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:16.157
at the at how it all works.

00:43:16.240 --> 00:43:21.437
>> And I probably cannot build a bank that
survives a total financial collapse. But

00:43:21.520 --> 00:43:25.677
if you guys familiar with the theory
of of of the bear, uh the bear is chasing

00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.077
you. He's chasing people around you. You

00:43:28.160 --> 00:43:33.037
don't have to outrun the bear. You have
to outrun everyone else. And so I think

00:43:33.120 --> 00:43:37.277
you might you might not be able to make
it where every bank fails. uh and and

00:43:37.360 --> 00:43:41.197
you survive, but you can make it where
you're one of the survivors in a world

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.717
where something really bad happens,
something that is beyond what is what

00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:45.837
the government could feasibly bail out.

00:43:45.920 --> 00:43:48.557
And by the way, when I say feasibly bail
out, I don't just mean financially. I

00:43:48.640 --> 00:43:52.397
mean politically. I am actually
astounded that the Biden administration

00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:56.317
bailed out a bunch of billionaires like me

00:43:56.400 --> 00:44:00.797
in the midst of this huge populist shift,
right or left. and they the fact

00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:04.637
that they did it for rational reasons,
but like I'm surprised they didn't do

00:44:04.720 --> 00:44:07.597
the thing that would have been popular
with their base. And it's not hard to

00:44:07.680 --> 00:44:10.557
imagine a world where a different White
House would do something different. And

00:44:10.640 --> 00:44:11.837
this is not a right or a left thing.

00:44:11.920 --> 00:44:13.917
It's a popular, it's a populism

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.957
argument. Uh we will we live in a world
where politicians can make rational risk

00:44:19.040 --> 00:44:22.637
management, systemic, you know,
financial collapse risk management if

00:44:22.720 --> 00:44:25.197
it's going to make them look
like they're in the pockets of the

00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:28.477
billionaires. I think maybe not. I
think you could end up a war of the world

00:44:28.560 --> 00:44:30.557
where there's massive economic pain

00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:35.677
because it's not politically uh viable
to do the right thing for the country.

00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:38.397
And so that that's that's the world
that I'm trying to prepare for.

00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.637
>> The billionaires,
the millionaires were,

00:44:40.720 --> 00:44:44.557
you know, if if Bernie has his way,
if Bernie got in the White House and he's

00:44:44.640 --> 00:44:49.597
he's not that far away, you know, he's
he's he's like at one point he was a he

00:44:49.680 --> 00:44:53.837
was a few superdelegates away from
winning winning a general election. Uh

00:44:53.920 --> 00:44:55.597
it's it's something to ponder.
Bernie can still

00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:56.797
>> if we have an economic
collapse, I think

00:44:56.880 --> 00:44:59.917
that the well, I don't know if we want
to get to politics, but the I I mean I

00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.717
look I think I think that the politics
>> we're not into politics.

00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:07.437
>> Yeah. So, um, so I mean, you know, the
Mandami winning in New York like I think

00:45:07.520 --> 00:45:09.197
we what we saw that's a great example.

00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.557
>> Yeah. The Republican party has shifted
to this kind of nationalist populist

00:45:12.640 --> 00:45:15.757
movement with Trump and Vance. That's
why I said it's not really Democrats may

00:45:15.840 --> 00:45:19.037
shift to that and who knows like we're
into I think we're an uncharted I mean

00:45:19.120 --> 00:45:22.797
it's a real realignment I think in the
sense of maybe since FDR or something we

00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.437
haven't had such a realignment
of the parties and it makes it very

00:45:25.520 --> 00:45:27.757
unpredictable and you have a bad economy

00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:32.717
and you know a there were only a few
dominoes falling away from some really

00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:34.877
weird outcomes in my opinion. >> Yep.

00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:38.717
>> Yep. But but like
in the case of Arabore, the most

00:45:38.800 --> 00:45:41.357
>> the riskiest asset like the riskiest

00:45:41.440 --> 00:45:46.637
product we're offering is lending with a
50% uh loan to deposit ratio which would

00:45:46.720 --> 00:45:49.917
make it one of like like that's
the riskiest product is one of the most

00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:53.757
conservative ratios in the entire
country. So >> it's smart. I mean

00:45:53.840 --> 00:45:57.037
>> and luckily this administration
is willing to sign off on it which in the

00:45:57.120 --> 00:45:58.637
past they've not been
a fan of these things.

00:45:58.720 --> 00:46:02.477
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um that's awesome. Um
so maybe last question then we'll take a

00:46:02.560 --> 00:46:05.837
question from the audience. Um,
just since you're like such a futuristic

00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:09.357
thinker, I'd love to hear like I I I

00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:13.277
feel like all these things like sci-fi
things that I've I heard you talking

00:46:13.360 --> 00:46:16.877
about Robert Heinland on the podcast.
I just I just read Stranger to Strange

00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.837
Land recently.
I love I love Starship Trooper.

00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:23.757
>> It's so funny when people call him
a fascist because of Starship Troopers and

00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:25.117
they've clearly never read other

00:46:25.200 --> 00:46:27.757
Heinland. Like Heinland also wrote

00:46:27.840 --> 00:46:30.957
basically like proworker pro-communist

00:46:31.040 --> 00:46:35.197
where like there's works where literal
communists who seize the means of

00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:37.597
production from the private
companies are the heroes of it.

00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:40.477
>> Have you read stranger stream? I just
read it's I've read every single line.

00:46:40.560 --> 00:46:43.597
>> It's crazy. It's like this hippie it's
like electric cool assets. It's great. I

00:46:43.680 --> 00:46:45.837
mean it's amazing.
>> He's just he's just a great sci-fi

00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.797
author. It's so funny when people try
to blow it down. He must be a fascist

00:46:48.880 --> 00:46:52.477
because the government has
some fascistic attendancies.

00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:54.717
>> Starship he's critiquing it I think.

00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:59.837
Yeah. He's he he he he does it all.
He makes fun of everyway. Yeah. Love.

00:46:59.920 --> 00:47:03.657
>> But but I feel like to my question,
I feel like all of this stuff that's

00:47:03.740 --> 00:47:06.237
[clears throat] been talked about
my whole life um is like suddenly

00:47:06.320 --> 00:47:09.197
happening. Like I don't know. I'm not
I know nothing about energy, but my

00:47:09.280 --> 00:47:10.957
friends tell me fusion may happen.

00:47:11.040 --> 00:47:15.037
Quantum computing, the experts, some
of the experts here say, you know, it may

00:47:15.120 --> 00:47:16.717
be actually starting to happen.

00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:19.837
>> Obviously, crypto AI AI is clearly
happening. We believe crypto will

00:47:19.920 --> 00:47:23.117
happen. Yep. >> Um it feels
like there's all of these

00:47:23.200 --> 00:47:24.477
things that have just been talked about.

00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:27.037
I mean, there's stuff in biology,
there's stuff, you know, you're doing

00:47:27.120 --> 00:47:30.557
in, you know, autonomous systems,
humanoid robots, like

00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:32.077
>> inter species communication.

00:47:32.160 --> 00:47:34.717
>> Feels like all this stuff is happening
now. And I'm just curious like, do you

00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:37.757
think that's true? And what's going to h
like in the next 30 is it like is like

00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:40.157
to your point about history
starting again. It feels like

00:47:40.240 --> 00:47:43.357
>> like we had, you know, Peter Teal
talks about we had 50 years only digital

00:47:43.440 --> 00:47:46.077
innovation. And >> you know,
if you if you were born in

00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:49.917
1890, you saw the invention of the
airplane and and a person a man on the

00:47:50.000 --> 00:47:53.517
moon and then it physical world stuff
kind of stopped. But it really feels

00:47:53.600 --> 00:47:57.997
like both history and your sense of like
wars restarting, land war in Europe, bad

00:47:58.080 --> 00:48:01.437
obviously terrible things like that. But
at the same time on the tech side, like

00:48:01.520 --> 00:48:05.357
all this cool shit's happening
all at once and it feels very real.

00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.117
>> Our understanding of the world is
progressing so fast and there's a lot of

00:48:09.200 --> 00:48:13.597
things that don't require even
technological breakthroughs. Like I

00:48:13.680 --> 00:48:17.037
the most exciting thing about what's
going on right now in my opinion is that

00:48:17.120 --> 00:48:19.997
it's mostly not actually technological

00:48:20.080 --> 00:48:24.717
progress. It's psychological or you
could even call it quasi religious

00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:28.397
progress catching up with the science
that was figured out decades ago. That's

00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:32.957
this whole nuclear thing.
All this nuclear energy stuff, it is just

00:48:33.040 --> 00:48:36.397
everyone's willingness to do nuclear
catching up with the technology,

00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.357
>> political cultural will.
>> A lot of this bioscience, there's a lot

00:48:39.440 --> 00:48:42.717
of things that have been proposed for
decades that are only just now actually

00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:46.557
being tested. I mean, here's another
example. We've understood oxytocin,

00:48:46.640 --> 00:48:49.757
which is one of the primary mamleian
pair bonding chemicals. We've understood

00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:54.077
how it works for decades. We've been
like actively using it to help uh like

00:48:54.160 --> 00:48:57.677
postpartum depressed mothers bond
with their kids. It's like, "Oh, you hate

00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:00.317
your baby. Look at your baby and we're
going to give you this shot. What the

00:49:00.400 --> 00:49:04.637
You love your baby now. It's incredible."
And there's people who are

00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:08.637
talking about using it in totally
novel ways. For example, doing divorce

00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:11.517
counseling and we've understood the

00:49:11.600 --> 00:49:14.797
mechanism of it for 50 years now. And

00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:18.797
it's literally just a willingness to just
do things. And so I'm excited about

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:22.237
the new science. I'm excited about new
fusion. There's a lot of just do things

00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:24.957
that's going on right now. >> And some
of it's infrastructure. Like AI

00:49:25.040 --> 00:49:28.237
is really about GPUs, right? Like a lot
of it engineer. It's just like isn't it

00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:30.557
too? Like just the timing of like
all the stuff came into place.

00:49:30.640 --> 00:49:33.357
>> We got so lucky. What a crazy
coincidence. You basically had all these

00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:37.517
GPUs for gaming. By the way, >> Oculus
when we were acquired by Facebook

00:49:37.600 --> 00:49:39.917
almost bought Nvidia back when they were

00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:41.757
worth about $7 billion and we were

00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:47.277
looking at doing a 51% takeover now. But
here's the and you people say, "Oh man,

00:49:47.360 --> 00:49:50.317
imagine if we would have gone
through with that project."

00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:51.437
>> But they never would
have done what they

00:49:51.520 --> 00:49:54.397
did, right? It was gaming and then
the gaming stuff happened to be useful for

00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:57.917
all the proof of work and staking stuff
in crypto. And then that ended up also

00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:01.677
being very similar to what we needed
for AI. Like man, what an incredible

00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:03.597
coincidence we live in in in in that

00:50:03.680 --> 00:50:06.157
world. uh of there's there's an

00:50:06.240 --> 00:50:09.357
interesting argument where uh where uh

00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:13.677
Oculus would have gone and got Nvidia
and AMD and centralized them and then

00:50:13.760 --> 00:50:16.557
only focused on gaming and then
we wouldn't have any of this stuff.

00:50:16.640 --> 00:50:18.477
>> Um >> it's a it's a crazy world.

00:50:18.560 --> 00:50:21.437
>> Um and do you think so do you think
we're entering into this sort of unpre

00:50:21.520 --> 00:50:23.997
like maybe unprecedented 20
30 year period of experience?

00:50:24.080 --> 00:50:25.597
>> Absolutely.
I I'll look I'll give you my

00:50:25.680 --> 00:50:30.077
my thesis for optimism. People know
that I I'm I'm a pretty I'm a pretty happy

00:50:30.160 --> 00:50:31.677
guy. It seems like I'm having a good

00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:33.917
time. It's because I remind myself the

00:50:34.000 --> 00:50:37.277
oats are like a dollar for some large

00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.917
number of pounds of oats. Uh you you can

00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.637
you can you can work for one you can
work for one hour of minimum wage at a

00:50:44.720 --> 00:50:48.717
federal level and earn enough calories
to survive an entire week. It's the best

00:50:48.800 --> 00:50:52.237
it's ever been. Nobody's been able
to do that. And it's not just oats. It's

00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:56.637
agriculture in general. Modern
pesticides controls Roundup machinery.

00:50:56.720 --> 00:50:59.517
We've figured out how to make food really,
really well. We throw away most

00:50:59.600 --> 00:51:03.037
of it. That's how good we are at making
it. And the same has been true I think

00:51:03.120 --> 00:51:05.837
for clothing. How many outfits do you own?

00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:06.957
>> 20 or something. I don't know.

00:51:07.040 --> 00:51:10.957
>> And how many would have you have
owned as a rich guy even you know even 50

00:51:11.040 --> 00:51:14.317
years ago. How about 100 years ago?
How about 200 years ago? We've just made

00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:18.237
clothes so cheap. People buy clothes and
they throw them away after wearing them

00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:22.157
one time. And you don't even have to be
rich to do that. Like that there there

00:51:22.240 --> 00:51:26.077
are people who are in college
working part-time who do this. Yeah.

00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:29.277
>> And I think that what you're going
to see is that same level of automation

00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:33.037
that has dominated textiles
and agriculture start to apply to

00:51:33.120 --> 00:51:36.957
everything. I think AI is going to make
it easier for the resource extraction,

00:51:37.040 --> 00:51:41.517
processing, and manufacturing to like I
really do believe that in our lifetimes,

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:45.197
you'll be able to go buy something
that's like a Ford F-150 for $1,000 or

00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.877
the equivalent >> cost of cost of the >>
the cost of extracting and transforming

00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:52.477
it will go to near zero and we're going
to compete the margins way down. It's

00:51:52.560 --> 00:51:55.597
it's just not that crazy. And so if
you can do and I bet you'll be able to

00:51:55.680 --> 00:51:59.197
recycle it with 90% efficiency
at the end of the season. You'll say what

00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.197
what's what's my summer car going to be?

00:52:01.280 --> 00:52:05.437
Let's go down to the mall and buy one
and and and and we'll try it out. Same

00:52:05.520 --> 00:52:08.797
thing I think for housing. Housing
is going to come extremely cheap. The

00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:11.837
components are not expensive. It's
the transformation and the regulation that

00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:14.077
have made it really hard.
>> The policy is is a bottleneck.

00:52:14.160 --> 00:52:16.877
>> Correct. And so I think that this
is what I mean when I say we don't need

00:52:16.960 --> 00:52:20.157
technological breakthrough so much as we
just need to just do things and like the

00:52:20.240 --> 00:52:23.117
the tech to do this is going to catch up.
Like, you know why manufactured

00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:26.557
housing isn't big in the US?
It's just anti-manufactured housing laws.

00:52:26.640 --> 00:52:30.957
Literally prohibiting housing that is
manufactured not on site. It's one of

00:52:31.040 --> 00:52:35.117
the most anti-American sets of laws that
there's ever been. I confidently believe

00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:38.317
that the founding fathers, if they were
around, would make this a federal issue.

00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:42.077
And they would say, "We are not going
to allow we are not going to allow local

00:52:42.160 --> 00:52:45.117
governments to decide." Like,
if you want to say a house of a certain

00:52:45.200 --> 00:52:48.797
appearance is one thing, that's fine,
but you cannot like this is a real

00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.717
interstate commerce issue. You cannot
effectively prohibit other states with

00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:57.437
competing with your housing industry by
prohibiting any housing that was created

00:52:57.520 --> 00:52:59.197
majority outside of your state lines.

00:52:59.280 --> 00:53:03.357
That's that's that's crazy. And we've
probably spent I don't know a hundred

00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:07.277
trillion dollars on housing that we
didn't need to because of that. Anyway,

00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.717
there's all this stuff is is is going
in a good direction. That's why I'm

00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:14.957
optimistic about the future. The future
of the current present of oats is the

00:53:15.040 --> 00:53:18.957
future of everything.
>> Amazing. Um [applause]

00:53:19.040 --> 00:53:22.317
the uh this is great. So uh let's maybe
take some questions from the from the

00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:24.077
audience. >> Thank you Pro.
Super interesting

00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:28.717
conversation. Uh I uh have a question
about your structures. You you you you

00:53:28.800 --> 00:53:32.637
were speaking about how you have a lot
of small teams and this feels like it's

00:53:32.720 --> 00:53:36.077
optimizing for the number of products
you can iterate on and figure out what

00:53:36.160 --> 00:53:39.437
works not for manufacturing uh very

00:53:39.520 --> 00:53:44.797
efficiently making the the cost of unit
uh uh as low as possible. And I'm coming

00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:48.077
from Ukraine. I have spoken to some
people in defense industry there and

00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:51.597
their criticism for Unreal was exactly
this that your products are very

00:53:51.680 --> 00:53:55.117
expensive and what they need right
now on the front front line is like

00:53:55.200 --> 00:53:59.357
something very very cheap just like
we had it in the second world war where

00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:03.517
like German engineering was way superior
to the Soviet one but the Soviets just

00:54:03.600 --> 00:54:05.837
had massive quantities of the tanks

00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:08.717
which were stupid uh lame easy to to

00:54:08.800 --> 00:54:11.517
destroy but the the sheer quantities uh

00:54:11.600 --> 00:54:16.877
uh eventually won uh how are you
thinking about this sure is are we in a

00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:19.917
situation where the China has
already won the race on uh on cheap

00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:23.597
manufacturing are like are you are you
like generally what are your thoughts on

00:54:23.680 --> 00:54:27.917
this very curious >> so they've
definitely kind of won by any

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.877
rational definition and so we're
probably not going to approach Chinese

00:54:30.960 --> 00:54:35.757
cost luckily the US has more money
and we're more you know we make more money

00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.117
per person and so we can probably afford
a little bit of an efficiency on the

00:54:39.200 --> 00:54:42.157
Ukraine side that one's really
interesting because we've had hardware

00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:46.237
and people in Ukraine since the second
week of the or I've been to Ukraine

00:54:46.320 --> 00:54:49.757
during the war myself and we we we've
been a part of US aid packages, European

00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:53.037
aid packages. We've even sold some
things directly to Ukraine, but to your

00:54:53.120 --> 00:54:56.157
point, mostly higherend stuff, long
range loitering munitions that can get

00:54:56.240 --> 00:55:00.557
through jamming bubbles. And what
they really need is large amounts of

00:55:00.640 --> 00:55:04.237
industrial industrial levels of firepower.
I mean, like they need a lot

00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:08.157
of really small, cheap drones. They also
just need a bunch of artillery shells.

00:55:08.240 --> 00:55:11.517
They need a bunch of mortar shells.
The biggest problem for a company like

00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:15.917
Anderl and and and it's a fair criticism
that people have made. The thing is I

00:55:16.000 --> 00:55:19.517
can't compete with for example Eastern
European manufactured artillery or

00:55:19.600 --> 00:55:22.717
mortar rounds. I I just can't do that in
the US no matter how smart I think about

00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:24.717
it. And I've I make solid rocket motors.

00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:28.717
I've wanted to make Energetics get
into the artillery shell business. The

00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.117
problem is I just cannot compete with

00:55:31.200 --> 00:55:36.317
what is a quite powerful arms industry
that exists in a lot of of the Baltics

00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:39.357
and Eastern European countries that are
that are supporting Ukraine. The problem

00:55:39.440 --> 00:55:43.037
is that you to automate everything you
have to get to a sufficient scale. And

00:55:43.120 --> 00:55:45.997
so one thing I've done is I've
approached multiple administrations said

00:55:46.080 --> 00:55:50.317
hey we need to commit to for example
supplying 155 you know artillery shells

00:55:50.400 --> 00:55:53.597
to not just Ukraine but all of these
allies. We need to build the you know

00:55:53.680 --> 00:55:57.197
the alien dreadnot where the metal goes
in and the shells come out. So are you

00:55:57.280 --> 00:55:59.757
are you familiar with how artillery
shell manufacturing happens in the

00:55:59.840 --> 00:56:03.197
United States? Here's the actual problem.
the facilities are literally

00:56:03.280 --> 00:56:07.117
owned by the government and then they
actually lease them out to operators who

00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:10.477
then use them to develop stuff. And so
if you try to compete with them, the

00:56:10.560 --> 00:56:14.877
government explicitly says, "But this
will it'll be like it's it's a waste of

00:56:14.960 --> 00:56:18.077
investment because we've already made
our investment in these facilities." So

00:56:18.160 --> 00:56:22.237
like I I'm I'm I I want to solve these
problems, but in general, Andre's looked

00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:26.797
at these things kind of quasi
realistically. I'm waging this this war

00:56:26.880 --> 00:56:30.157
of hearts and minds to explain why that
is the dumbest thing ever. They need to

00:56:30.240 --> 00:56:33.677
open it up for competition. I think what
they should do is say we're not going to

00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:37.677
give you welfare to make your artillery
line. We're going to say that the first

00:56:37.760 --> 00:56:41.917
company to build something using private
capital and be get to sufficiency. Oh,

00:56:42.000 --> 00:56:44.717
we're going to award them a contract for
this much and they have to hit a certain

00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:49.037
price point and a certain scale and only
then are we committed to buying and they

00:56:49.120 --> 00:56:51.917
just don't want to do that because they
have their own centrally planned scheme.

00:56:52.000 --> 00:56:55.357
There's a lot of there's a lot of secret
communism going on in the United States.

00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:57.677
A lot of secret Soviet thinking uh that

00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:00.077
is just hidden behind a veneer of the

00:57:00.160 --> 00:57:04.797
flag. Um the other so that that's kind
of like the artillery issue. When you

00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:08.797
get to the small drones, it actually
gets to I'm competing like my biggest

00:57:08.880 --> 00:57:10.317
competitor for building small drones.

00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:13.757
Like I to be clear, I want to build
small attack drones for Ukraine and I

00:57:13.840 --> 00:57:18.557
want to be cost competitive there. But I'm
competing with Ukraine using largely

00:57:18.640 --> 00:57:22.077
Chinese components, right? Most of these
internally assembled drones, they're

00:57:22.160 --> 00:57:24.877
built using Chinese flight controllers,
Chinese sensors, Chinese stuff. I'm

00:57:24.960 --> 00:57:28.957
prohibited from using those. So Andre
is sanctioned by China. Our entire seauite

00:57:29.040 --> 00:57:32.317
is sanctioned by China. The government
in the US prohibits us from making

00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.317
weapons using these Chinese components.

00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:38.077
And so I can come in and say, "Hey,
I have this thing that is cheap, but you

00:57:38.160 --> 00:57:42.237
know, instead of it being a $900 drone,
it is it is a $2,000 drone." And people

00:57:42.320 --> 00:57:44.797
in Ukraine say, "Well, that's expensive,
and how am I ever going to do

00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:47.437
that?" And I say, "You're right. If
you're willing to use Chinese stuff, I I

00:57:47.520 --> 00:57:51.197
I literally can't compete." Um, and this
has been a smart move by China, by the

00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.757
way. This is why China keeps, you know,
they they they they do this because it

00:57:55.840 --> 00:57:57.917
actually cripples my ability to compete.

00:57:58.000 --> 00:58:01.517
Um, there's other stuff that I do that's
just too expensive for Ukraine. And I'm

00:58:01.600 --> 00:58:03.997
trying to make it I'm trying to make it
cheaper. I want our learning munitions

00:58:04.080 --> 00:58:06.077
to be more less expensive. But, for

00:58:06.160 --> 00:58:11.037
example, I'm required to use a certain
navigation system that the government

00:58:11.120 --> 00:58:14.797
has approved for munitions of this
category. And they also require us to

00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:18.317
use it because they want us to sell
anti-tamper stuff using approved parts

00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:20.957
where Ukraine can't go in and say, "Ah,

00:58:21.040 --> 00:58:25.517
this was able to go, you know,
400 kilometers." But if I just strap on a

00:58:25.600 --> 00:58:28.317
bigger battery and I can tweak it,
I'm going to go to Moscow. Another example

00:58:28.400 --> 00:58:33.117
of this, like I wanted uh I actually
wanted to sell surveillance towers to

00:58:33.200 --> 00:58:34.957
Ukraine before this war even started.

00:58:35.040 --> 00:58:37.917
And that wasn't something that I came up
with. It was something Zalinsky came up

00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:41.597
with it. He read a wired article
about Anderl talking about how we were

00:58:41.680 --> 00:58:45.917
securing the US southern border.
And when he was in the US for his first UN

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:49.277
meeting after winning his election, he
wanted to meet with Anderl to talk about

00:58:49.360 --> 00:58:52.157
what it would look like to have our
towers on his border so they could know

00:58:52.240 --> 00:58:55.117
how Russia was building things up,
how they would cross. And then we ran into

00:58:55.200 --> 00:58:57.757
this problem where the US State
Department basically put the kibos on

00:58:57.840 --> 00:59:02.077
the whole thing. They said, "No,
Russia's not going to invade Ukraine. Uh

00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:05.917
Zalinski is basically just angling
for welfare. He's trying to be a saber

00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:10.237
rattler." And so like the people who
made those decisions, they're still in

00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:13.117
the State Department. They're still
making these the these things. So I've

00:59:13.200 --> 00:59:15.837
to a certain degree I've got my hands
tied behind my back. I'll say, "I want

00:59:15.920 --> 00:59:18.557
to make a $2,000 attack drone."
They say, "Well, you have to use this

00:59:18.640 --> 00:59:20.557
approved thing. You can only use this
approved warhead. You have to make it

00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:23.357
anti-tamper so the Ukrainians can't make
it do things that we don't want them to

00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.637
do." And [snorts] the net of that is
what you're talking about. People in

00:59:26.720 --> 00:59:30.717
Ukraine saying, "And stuff is expensive
and it's locked down and it doesn't and

00:59:30.800 --> 00:59:33.917
you can't modify it." And and I say,
"Yeah, that sucks. Look, I like I've

00:59:34.000 --> 00:59:37.517
been to Kev. I've been to Lviv and I've
I've trained people on how to use our

00:59:37.600 --> 00:59:40.637
systems and I've heard this feedback
face to face and it's really hard to

00:59:40.720 --> 00:59:44.957
tell a guy who's telling you that people
are dying because of it like oh well

00:59:45.040 --> 00:59:49.277
sorry I'm I you know I wish I could do
better but that's the that's the short

00:59:49.360 --> 00:59:52.957
one more thing you're right that we have
a lot of these different things and that

00:59:53.040 --> 00:59:56.317
is good for figuring out what works
not necessarily for scale some of those

00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:59.197
things are getting to scale like
our towers are very much at scale we're on

00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:03.917
35 bases around the world we're covering
about 30% of the US southern border now

01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:05.437
a bunch of the northern border as well.

01:00:05.520 --> 01:00:08.877
It's like our towers have scaled really
well. Um, same thing with our counter

01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:12.477
drone systems. Like we're the program of
record for all of SOCOM's drone defense.

01:00:12.560 --> 01:00:15.197
We're the program of record for all
of the Marine Corps's drone defense. So,

01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:19.357
some of these things are scaling. It's
these newer things like I guess my my my

01:00:19.440 --> 01:00:22.477
if I have a critic who says Palmer,
but you have all these things that haven't

01:00:22.560 --> 01:00:26.237
scaled. I say, well, guess what? Every
single Android product that is more than

01:00:26.320 --> 01:00:29.757
5 years old has scaled. It takes time
to get the government to scale these

01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:33.677
things, but we don't have any examples
of a product that we did that didn't

01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.277
scale once it had enough time.
Every product in our we've been around for

01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:41.517
almost nine years. Every product that
was started more than 5 years ago is in

01:00:41.600 --> 01:00:45.117
major scaling mode. It's just we have
a lot of other things that are newer and

01:00:45.200 --> 01:00:48.157
they're there I'm sure there will be
some failures, but uh you know it's

01:00:48.240 --> 01:00:52.477
flipping coins. You don't need to get
a heads every time to to beat the house. I

01:00:52.560 --> 01:00:55.117
think you see what I mean when I said
the Joe Rogan thing is like the best

01:00:55.200 --> 01:00:58.477
thing to watch because he just gave us
a preview of it. Um, that's amazing. Thank

01:00:58.560 --> 01:01:01.917
you. There's like you have like a million
great stories. So, thank you so much.

01:01:02.000 --> 01:01:05.480
>> Of course. >> Yeah. [applause]