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The very big picture here is in 2017
a lot of people believed we lived at the

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end of history that there was no more
geopolitical movement of significance to

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happen and that the United Nations could
write mean letters to dissuade people

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from expansionist actions. The cynics
were right. The cynics who said no war

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is still a thing of the present.
You can't start working on bombs after the

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war has started and expect to have any
deterrent impact. You're just going to

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be part of fighting wars instead
of preventing them. All of this stuff

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that's been talked about my whole life
um is like suddenly happening. AI is

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clearly happening. We believe crypto
will happen. Do you think we're entering

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into this maybe unprecedented
20 30 year period of experience?

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>> Absolutely. I'll give you
my my thesis for optimism.

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>> Thanks for being here. I just watched
your um your uh Joe Rogan interview

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which everyone should watch.
There's talking parrots,

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>> UFOs, uh China uh

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>> UFOs again.
China UFOs and China. Just a

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lot of interesting stuff. Um, a AR

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helmet that you built. I mean, it's like
it's like nerd like Nirvana this video.

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So, you guys will have to watch.

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>> And then UFOs again.
>> It's like three or four times.

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>> And there's like the alien seed. Joe
Rogan has to always talk about the alien

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seed seed human evolution or some
or the uplift theory. Was that it?

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>> Talked about uplift theory taking
non-sensient species and bringing them

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up to or past the point of human
consciousness. It's a much it's a much

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it's like old style Joe Rogan of like
just like deep in every rabbit hole. We

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were going for it. >> It was incredible.

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>> The one problem I I I recommend going
on Joe Rogan if you get the chance, but

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>> the one problem is that all
of your messaging tools become completely

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unusable for a period of at least
48 hours because a lot of things like

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inboxes and your SMS, email, it relies
to some degree on there being a limited

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quantity. >> Yeah. Yeah.
And so if you have over a

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thousand messages come in from everyone

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you've ever known saying, "Bro,
so cool on Joe Rogan." Then everything

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else in between. And then they're like,
"Palmer, you must finish your security

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training today or you will lose your
clearance." And and they're like, "Did

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Palmer, did you get the message?"

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[laughter] No. No. Hang on.
Bro on your on your inbox.

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>> That's right, >> Joe Rogan.
That's awesome.

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>> Um anyway, so uh
so I I was lucky enough

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to meet you back in your Oculus days.

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That's right. >> Um,
which was I think the cool I

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remember Mark Andre and I flew down
and saw I remember the demo with the QR

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codes on the wall. You want to turn turn a
little bit? Um, the QR codes on the wall.

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>> I can't I can't cheat that well.
I'm not like a Broadway actor. [laughter]

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Yes, Chris. I remember.

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>> So, so uh the the
demo with the QR codes

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on the wall. Yep. Right. Obviously,
you know, and like it was so for those who

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don't know like the time like the first
developer kit you had tracking but you

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had to have uh the boxes outside. Well,
what it was is the first development kit

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didn't have any spatial tracking.
You couldn't track movement through space.

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It was just where you were looking.

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>> So, three three degrees off.

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>> Exactly. And so then we we were
developing a six off system and that was

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what became the Oculus Rift DK2. That's
right. That was I think we like that was

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the real first modern >> that was
the outside tracking. Is that right?

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>> We're experimenting with different
systems actually, you know. I mean that

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was an inside out system that you're
referring to. We ended up still using an

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outside in system for the DK2 and then

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even for the CV1. It took us years
to get inside out tracking robust enough

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that we could take it out of a room that
we would show investors and actually get

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it into people's people's living rooms
because we were talking a little bit

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about this earlier, but the edge cases
are what kills you. It's easy to make it

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work in a lab. Very very very easy.

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>> Not maybe not really easy, but it it's
relatively easy. What's hard is when you

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put it into a real room. Real rooms have
glass in them. They have reflections in

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them. They have other people walk through.
Now a a large chunk of your

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scene is moving. You have to reject that.
And that sounds easy for the bulk

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of it, but what about the things on the
fringes? What about what about um things

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like curtains that move a little bit?

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What about or like you you scan your
scene and then you come back and next

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time it's moved a just a little bit. Uh

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also fans, ceiling fans, the death of

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inside out tracking. Uh it's just

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rejecting all of those things

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>> becomes uh uh a hercilian challenge and

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we we eventually got it working >>
and and you had to fix that Oculus

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Quest. I need to do the optics like
the lenses, the screens were a big issue.

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You can talk about like for those who
don't know like the the only I believe

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only Samsung made what was it the system?

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>> Oh, it was even worse. Samsung was
the only company that was sort of able to

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make them. So, we were using Samsung
displays that were more advanced than

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was in their smartphones. We were
trying to take things that really were

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engineering samples and prototypes
and we were trying to put them into

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full-scale production. And uh so we had

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very low yield on those lines. We had to

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calc we we had to we had to test every

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display and reject ones that had dead
pixels. And in VR, you really can't get

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away with one dead pixel. Forget bright
pixels. There's even dead pixels. It's

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because you have uh it's so obviously
apparent. It's right in your face. It's

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a very large large, you know,
it's stretched out a big in a big way. And

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then also it's the mismatch between
your eyes. One of the are the schemes we

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experimented with actually
was if you had a dead pixel

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>> killing an an equivalent
pixel in your other eye.

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>> At least it's symmetric. It actually
made it much better. But it was the

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asymmetry. You've ever seen those cross
eye puzzles where you can, you know, you

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cross your eyes, you can see what's
different. That's what it's like having

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a dead pixel. You're constantly seeing
this asymmetric mismatched image and so

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those dots stand out so much. Anyway, we
ended up not doing that because it turns

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out customers still like disliked dead
pixels. But uh it was a tricky time.

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>> To me, it was a lesson of I had not
invested in hardware and like to me it

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was a lesson of why hardware is so hard.

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Like there was literally one company
Samsung and it like unless it was like

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you tell me couple hundred million
dollar order they weren't even going to

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in fact that's why isn't that
why you did the Samsung dealer

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VR was to get the screen there
was really no amount of money that would

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convince them to do what we need to make
our display but then we did a deal with

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them to basically be the software
and hardware designers behind the Samsung

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Gear VR product. So, if you bought V
Gear VR or if you got it for free with

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your phone, uh it was it was Oculus that
made made that happen. And we sold over

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10 million units, which was >>
But they were three off. They not six

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off, right? They were >> correct.
They were three off.

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>> I always didn't like three off because
I felt like it wasn't the real thing.

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>> I agree. It was not the real thing. I

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look people people forget that uh I was

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a hobbyist who started building VR
headsets as a 15-year-old and then I got

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all of you guys to give me
a bunch of money to do it. Yeah,

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>> it's a business. And so, uh, I like I
I I knew that threedolf was not going to

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actually work to build this VR revolution,

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but it got you guys to give us money
and like but like we got from DK1 to DK2

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very quickly. And here's the good news.

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DK1, we sold about 55,000 units, which
made it the best selling VR headset in

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history at the time. Um, by the way, I

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spec I the previous bestseller was the

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Philips Scuba in the US. It was the

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Takara Dino Visor in Japan. But combined

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those that same design sold exactly

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50,000 units. So the 55 was I I want I
we we we specifically sold that much so

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that the DK1 would be the best selling.

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And then we sold 250,000 DK2s.

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>> I'm not criticizing
you, by the way. I'm

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just like No, but once you I just meant
once you experience the six off, you're

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like, "Wow, that's the real thing."
Cuz you can like walk around the room all

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the people >> and it
was critical to get to that as

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fast as possible. I mean I I would argue
the DK1 days what like we knew we were

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living on borrowed time. We were living
in this world where people would see it

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and they'd get a fiveminute demo
and they say oh this is absolutely

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incredible but without six off tracking
it will make them sick and it will make

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them nauseous. Cyber sickness is caused
by a lot of things but the primary

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mechanism is that when you have what
your inner ear feels mismatch with what

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your eye sees. Your body believes that

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that mismatch must be due to a poison
that is interfering with your peripheral

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nervous system. And so what do you need to
do when you're poison? Expel the poison.

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>> And so we we we knew that we were on
borrowed time. It was a great demo piece

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of demo hardware, but we knew we needed
to get to really good six off tracking

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before too many people figured out what
was going on. And we did. And we did.

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>> Can I tell the the the selling story we
just talked about? Okay. I don't know if

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it's public. All right. So here's
my Palmer crypto story, which is um uh so

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>> I had even thought about this for so
many years. Well, one was we had a we

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had a call once where in like 2013
he's like I wanted to make the store all

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Bitcoin, right? And I was like, I love
you. You know, this is awesome. Um and

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and in fact, you were almost you
said the first customer of Coinbase.

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>> I So I literally was with Brian
Armstrong yesterday and we were going

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back through my emails to refresh our

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memory and I have an email chain of me

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with Brian Armstrong in uh late 2012

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talking about supporting that he's like
Coinbase is going to be rolling out a

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payments system. you'll be able to take
Bitcoin on your website and we were

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going to be their very first their very
first customer and I was grilling him. I

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said, "Why should I work with you
instead of Bit Pay?" Um, and [laughter]

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uh and uh but I I did have a I had
a wallet at Coinbase. I was an early

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Bitcoin guy like before there were any
exchanges on the Bitcoin Talk forums.

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Like I told you, I sold banner ads
on my website for 400 Bitcoin. I bought a

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Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, which was the
T-Mobile's first Galaxy phone for 8,000

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Bitcoin. Could you imagine if I wouldn't
have bought that phone? Um I could have

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done so much more Bitcoin gambling at

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the time and uh but uh but yeah like
yeah we we I mean we were we we almost

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made it happen. Then the lawyers came in.
This is the worst part. We got

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approval and then we got a new COO
and he brought in real lawyers and they

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stopped us. >> They stopped. They said how
do you handle the taxes on this? Is it an

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asset? Is it a currency?
It better not be or it's illegal.

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>> And then what happened?
This is my story

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but I just confirmed with you was true
that I'd heard it from Brandon. So

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Brendan's the CEO and uh and I sort
of would talk to him more about some of

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this stuff. Um so they got an offer. You
got an offer from Zuck went down to LA,

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saw the demo and was like this is the
greatest thing ever. And I think maybe

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on the you tell me on the spot offered
you a billion dollars or something.

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>> It was more or less on the spot.

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>> Yeah. More or less on the spot
offers him a billion dollars. And then I

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remember Brendan called me and he's like
we're going to turn down the billion.

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I'm like okay. You know like why?
And he's like well Palmer has a lot of

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Bitcoin and doesn't
really give a about money.

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>> And this was when
Bitcoin was $200. Like

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literally [laughter] that was I I never
actually asked Palmer until just now. I

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00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,757
was like, "Was that true before I say it
on stage, but that was what Brendon told

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me was the reason." >> I
was checking I was [laughter] checking

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I was checking my witcoin
at $28. I am set.

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>> Yeah. And then but then he came back
and offered three billion. But but but the

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more important thing >> when I
when when Forbes gave me the 30

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under 30 uh award in 2014, they they
they they had everybody had to give one

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sentence of advice to young entrepreneurs.
And I was on the cover.

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It said Palmer Lucky. quote,
"Buy more Bitcoin." [laughter]

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So, I was I was the OG here. >> So,
so then then you eventually got to

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got to a higher price. But more
importantly, just just to give context,

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right, the real reason for selling was not
just like personal money. It was the

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fact that we we all saw the writing on the
wall, which was going to be billions more

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>> R&D. >> Well,
you remember the other side of

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this. I you are the other side
of the table on this. So, like for me, the

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founder position was uh I I wasn't

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interested in selling for money. Uh, and

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I also believed that Oculus was going
to be worth a lot more than a billion. Why

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00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,237
would you sell out for a billion dollars
and give up control? Uh, the thing that

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convinced us is Mark came back and said,
"One, here's why we are aligned in ways

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00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:18,557
that Microsoft and Google is not. Here's
why we want VR and AR to be the next

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platform, whereas they generally want
the status quo to continue." So, it

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convinced us that they really
did want what we wanted. Yeah.

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>> Which was not to sell us
for parts or use us to sell more Xbox.

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>> Yeah. >> No offense to Microsoft.
love those guys. But uh >> yeah,

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>> the the the real thing that made the
difference was that they were willing to

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put money behind that belief. They said,

209
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"We will put a billion dollars in R&D

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behind you every year for the
next 10 years, guaranteed."

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>> I think that was actually
in the deal, too, as I recall.

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>> It was it was it was that was the thing
that was most important to me because

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you start running the numbers. How am I
going to get a billion dollars a year to

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do uh R&D? You launching a platform
takes a lot of money. Xbox spent like

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five billion launching the first Xbox.

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You you it just it's the content is
expensive, the people are expensive, the

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marketing is expensive. And so we had
people like Chris coming and saying,

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"We're going to raise more money than
we've ever raised in any company in

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history." You you was a $75 million
round about we did was 75 million

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>> $250 million valuation.
It was a big deal back then.

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>> And uh for us
to raise billions, I'm not

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going to have any control of my company.

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It would have taken years if the market
had downturned and you have a burn rate

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that relies on a billion a year
in VC money. I mean, you're toast.

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>> I mean, there wasn't a back then there
wasn't a billion. Like we we literally

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had a Wall Street Journal article that we
had a billion dollar fund and it was

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like this bubble bubble thing.
That's right.

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>> So, we put 7 and a half% of our fund
like we could there's like a limit.

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Yeah. >> And so this
this offer from Mark, they

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said they would say they were committed.

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I I actually remember exactly the words
I said. It's it's in a book called The

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History of the Future. The author got
a bunch of Facebook internal. It's a good

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book. bunch of Facebook internal
documents, but uh the email that I sent

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out to the founders, they're like, "Oh,
you know, I think Zuck might be might be

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BSing us." I said, "If Zuck is playing

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us, he's Van Halen." Uh [laughter]
and uh and that that was really the thing

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that that convinced us in the end.

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>> And now they've spent
you said 80 billion.

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>> The official public number is $60
billion. The way that I look at this and

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the way that I the way that I convinced
myself that it wasn't so bad that I got

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fired from my own company that I I built

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as a youth and put my whole adult life

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into uh is that in the end uh Facebook
didn't really acquire Oculus. Uh Oculus

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took over Facebook. We became
the overwhelming and dominant component of

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their spend and their R&D and their
product product creation engine. That's

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pretty good. That's pretty good.

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>> Yeah. No, it's amazing. >> Yeah. Um,
>> and it only cost them $3 billion for me

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to take over. >> It's gotten good.
It's gotten good. The

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MetaQuest is good and I think the,
you know, it's like I I believe

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>> Quest was the last thing that I
worked on before they fired me.

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>> Is that right? >> Yeah.
>> I mean, I I still very much believe in

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VR. It's it's taken longer than I
expected. I mean, as has, you know,

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crypto and a bunch of stuff
can take longer, but

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>> it it is going to work. And there's
there's people who take a kind of glee

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in it failing. You got to actually look

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like like rationally it is not failing.

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I think it's not living up to what
certain people, myself included,

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believed that it would be. But when you
see these articles uh from from like the

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modern tech press is not the tech press.

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They're the anti-tech press. But when
you see modern anti-tech press articles,

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you know, why didn't VR succeed? They're

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not mentioning that the last version of
Quest sold 20 million units. They're not

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00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:26,557
mentioning >> more than
Xbox at least one year.

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>> It sold way more than Xbox. It's and

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like Quest 2 sold better for the first

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three years that it existed than the

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Nintendo 64. Like, and so it's like,

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huh, what a failure. It only sold better

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than every game console I owned as a
child. Like, it's it's it's this it's

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it's because they're comparing it
to smartphones, which but smartphones are

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this unparalleled explosion in
technological change. Yeah. We're not as

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good as the biggest change in the way
we've used computers in history, but

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we're we're we're we're like the next
we're only one step down. So I I I'm

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like, by the way, that's just Quest 2.

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You also then had Quest 3 selling for
the same time as a while. Like you had,

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of course, PlayStation VR, which sold
about about 6 million units. We don't

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have numbers for PlayStation VR 2 yet,
but like they're definitely selling

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millions of units. You had HTC Vive,
which sold at least three or four

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million units. Like you're looking at a
world where there are by any measure low

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tens of millions of users of this
technology. That's that's pretty good.

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There weren't that many people
using iPhones until the iPhone 3GS.

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>> Like like like it's like like you had
to get to the third generation of iPhones.

283
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>> 2012 that Facebook did their mobile
pivot. People forget that it was 5 years

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in that it actually was obvious to people
that it was like the new platform.

285
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>> That's right. That's right.

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>> Like it's like people have this
retrospect like this retcon kind of what

287
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,517
happened. >> Well, I also
I I like to compare it to

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iPods, too. Um, and it's been a while
since I did this exercise, but we had

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some vanity metric where we pointed that

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the Oculus Rift in the first year

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outsold the first three years of the iPod.
And like it's true, iPod took off

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00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,677
in an exponential way later. But by the
time it like those first three years, I

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mean, it was on the cover of major
magazines. It was winning gadget of the

294
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year. All the hottest like it was it was
an it thing to have and we were we were

295
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we were out selling it. It used
to be that success was enough. Yeah,

296
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>> that's not enough anymore. It needs to
be mega billion success or you're nobody.

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>> Well, the other thing is that there's
there obviously like the ergonomics, the

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00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,637
the visuals, like they're just obviously
going to get better and they're an issue

299
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,837
right now. Like it's kind of you get
sweaty. It's kind of like right and so

300
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,797
like I feel like there's hard things
to predict like user behavior like but

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00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,437
they're easy things like of course
they're going to get smaller, lighter,

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00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:41,357
faster, more performant, better
graphics, better games. There's a

303
00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,397
there's a great article that's
definitely worth reading, very well

304
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,117
written, um on palmerlucky.com called
free isn't cheap enough. It's the

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00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:50,877
number one Palmer Lucky
blog on the internet.

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00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,237
>> Free isn't cheap enough.
>> It's written by me. Um but it's this

307
00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,837
great piece where I laid out this
hypothesis years ago um called free

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00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,797
isn't cheap enough. And I argue that the

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00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,437
thing holding VR back is not the price

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00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,837
per unit. Like it's it's not the fact
that it's $300 versus $200. It's the

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00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,757
it's what you're talking about. It's
too heavy. It's too sweaty. quality and

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00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,757
content pipeline is just not there to make
an average person, not a gamer, not

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an early adopter like your mom

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>> to use it. And so when people say, "I'm
not interested in VR," you can give them

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00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,197
an easy hypothetical. Okay, well wait,
what if it was a pair of like sunglasses

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00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,757
and it was as good as The Matrix and it

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00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:34,637
were $99? Would you use it? And it
doesn't even unimaginative people are

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00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,677
like, "Yeah, I like if I could do
literally anything that I could imagine

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00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,277
in a pair of glasses, of course I would
do it, but that's not what VR is." And I

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00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,397
say, "Well, then then we're just arguing
about when VR is going to take off. It's

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00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,517
not if it will. We know the physics
allows us to get to something like what

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00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,077
I've described." Um, and so I argued
that this relentless push on making it

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00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,837
cheaper and cheaper is pointless because
even if it was free, it wouldn't be good

324
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,517
enough for people to keep using. I would
posit you could give a VR headset as

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00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,997
they exist today to every person in

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00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,517
America and upwards of 90% of them would

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00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:09,837
stop using them within a month because
it's just the quality is not quite there

328
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,957
yet. In other words, free isn't
cheap enough to make VR succeed.

329
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,677
>> Yeah, maybe even a higher price
better one would be even more successful.

330
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:16,877
>> That was one of that was my argument.

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00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,597
Unfortunately, people didn't listen to me
and they kept going and they launched

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the Oculus Go at $99 which went back
to being three off and that was a whole

333
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:27,997
misadventure and uh [snorts] uh it it
ended up This is one of the things where

334
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,517
me and John Carmarmac were actually
at odds. He thought that the price

335
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,157
>> John Car very love the gear.
He always loved that.

336
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,517
>> He is a he is a very sharp guy and he's
a man of the people. He wanted everybody

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00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:43,357
to have VR but it turns out that Quest
at 399 hugely outsold Go at 99 and I

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00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:46,317
think that says something about
the shape of it. Now you see Apple and

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00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,117
Samsung attacking the high end of the
market. I think that has a higher chance

340
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,837
of success. I'm I'm I'm praying that it
works this gen or we're going to have to

341
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,357
go through another bit of a winter.

342
00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,797
>> Yeah. So you've done so moving on to
Andre. You've done an amazing job with

343
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:01,037
Andre. I think some of the things
that stand out to me. I mean first of all

344
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:05,277
it's just an iconic company
and congratulations success. Um but also

345
00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:09,677
like you started off you know negative
press like this this kind of sense you

346
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,237
know >> we won the Wired
magazine worst person

347
00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,117
in Silicon Valley award. Uh Bloomberg

348
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,197
called us the most controversial company

349
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:19,597
in tech. So this was back when Andre was

350
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,797
25 people building drone defense

351
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,877
systems. Um and and by the way this was

352
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,437
the same year that uh we work had be

353
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:31,917
been indicted by the feds. Uh Uber had
just ousted all of its senior leaders

354
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,157
and you beat them as >> No.
Yeah. The most controversial tech

355
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,437
company was Homer Lucky and his 24 drone

356
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,277
drone [laughter] people. Uh yeah it was

357
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:44,957
incredible. So you so you went from that
to now 7,000 people employees. Um you

358
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,757
know >> depends on how you count it,
but if you include contractors. Yeah.

359
00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,157
>> And and sort of I think an iconic
company that is I assume has gone from

360
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,197
maybe having trouble recruiting in the
tell me trouble recruit in the beginning

361
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:58,557
to now being a talent magnet.
>> Oh the opposite. Did you see our latest

362
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,437
recruiting campaign?
>> It was called don't work at

363
00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,917
>> work because you don't
want the wrong people to work.

364
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,277
>> It is it has become so when you're
when you when you're doing something early

365
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,557
and it's really crazy and it's new.
This is true with Oculus, too.

366
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,477
>> You only get the true believers,
the people who are there because they want

367
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,757
to and they believe in what you're
doing and they could be making more money

368
00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:21,917
elsewhere. As long as they feel like
what they're doing is like, why would

369
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,557
you go work at this startup that
everyone's laughing about and thinks is

370
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,477
a joke like Oculus was early on to a lot
of people in tech, why would you go

371
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,557
there if uh if if it's not even going
to pay you well? And the answer is because

372
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,277
you really believe in what they're doing.
And that's a natural filter for

373
00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:39,437
the lily pad jumpers, the thinkfluencers.

374
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,277
You know the people [clears throat]
I'm talking about. You see them on the

375
00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:44,957
LinkedIn. You these are the people who
they're they're AI experts right now.

376
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,917
They were AR experts a year ago. They
were VR experts a year before that. Um

377
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,957
what I guess they Yeah, they were like,
you know, the social local mobile

378
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,317
experts before that. Web 2.0. Yeah, I

379
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,037
guarantee they all were web 2.0 people

380
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:03,517
as well. And web 3.0.
Don't forget web 3.0. 5G.

381
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,557
>> Yep. [laughter] >> You
people who have been to enough of

382
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,717
tech conferences know exactly
what I'm talking about.

383
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,917
>> That's hilarious. >> And so,
uh, the problem is Androl has

384
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,197
now gotten to the point where there's
no filter. We are now cool enough to get

385
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,477
those people. >> You're too cool now.

386
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,677
>> And so, it's important to get the right
people. It's even more important to

387
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,517
repel the wrong people. No matter how
well they dress themselves up and and

388
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,317
hide their true nature.
>> How do you discover that? So, we did a

389
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,597
commercial where we showed people how
you have to go out in the field and work

390
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,597
in the dirt and you and your hours are

391
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,597
unpredictable and you might see your

392
00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,037
family, you also might not. Um, and we

393
00:21:37,120 --> 00:21:40,957
kind of and the ad there's a guy in the ad
and he he complains throughout the ad

394
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,117
about how awful it is. And then at the

395
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,477
end he says, "Yeah, don't work at Ander."
And uh and the idea was that to

396
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,357
a certain type of person who's looking
for purpose and mission and adventure,

397
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,957
like there's a point where he's like
on a boat with a bunch of special forces

398
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,557
guys. They're on a little rubber boat
and he's bouncing around and you know

399
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,477
and and going off to some, you know,
on some forward deployed location. We

400
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,757
actually do this. We have a team
of hundreds of forward deployed engineers

401
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,397
supporting a lot of these these missions

402
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,237
>> and uh our customers love it for us.
But the idea was to a certain person, they

403
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,357
see that and say, "Oh my gosh, this looks
like the coolest thing ever." And

404
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,197
to the normal person who wants to play

405
00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,237
soccer and do yoga and and be home by

406
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,797
55, they're going to be repelled by that.
And so I I by the way, same thing

407
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,597
with investors. It's important to get
investors. At a certain point, you

408
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,397
become so hot that everyone wants
to invest. And then you've have to figure

409
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,917
out how will I repel investors who are
not mission aligned. So you have to say

410
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,157
crazy stuff. You have to you have
to really push the limit. You have to you

411
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,717
want to generate that conversation
in the LP meeting where they're like, are

412
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,797
why are why are you investing in this
company? And you need them to to to to

413
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:52,077
say we are 100% behind them and here's
why and you can't you can't have the you

414
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,277
can't have the fairweather friends when
you're in in controversial business.

415
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,237
>> And do you think you may manage to do
that with 7,000 people? You also must do

416
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,997
like like in your interviews and your
process you must because they slip

417
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,917
through the ads and they >> look
it's it it you'll never be perfect

418
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,837
but everything you do makes the problem
slide this way on the scale towards

419
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,837
better and so like like don't work at

420
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,877
and as an ad campaign tripled our
recruitment on like in terms of incoming

421
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,277
>> and and also we got a lot of more
qualified applicants mostly it brought

422
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:23,757
in people who are unqualified but you
you're trying to move the move the

423
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,437
needle and I I think it all it all it
all adds up we of course hire people who

424
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,917
are bad fits and then
uh and then we fire them.

425
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,317
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the um

426
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,757
>> they quit themselves sometimes.

427
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,437
>> Yeah. The other thing I'll say and I'm
I'm not I'm only on the out I mean the

428
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,717
firm's an investor but I'm not directly
involved but I I'm a fan from the

429
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,477
outside and I am just amazed like so
many startups like they'll launch a

430
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,157
product especially hardware like every
two years and I feel like every 3 weeks

431
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,357
like I just saw you you had this new
AR helmet and three weeks ago you had I

432
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,797
think an autonomous submarine like you
just launch a lot of stuff it's kind of

433
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,037
incredible like >> about 25
products the interesting thing

434
00:24:01,120 --> 00:24:03,517
about Anderol is what we're doing where

435
00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,077
we're launching many many many products
and where we are having indiv individual

436
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,477
product teams on each of those that are
relatively lean is actually easier for

437
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,917
me to run as a company than the companies
that have to invest in one or

438
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,517
two products and grow them to serve
everybody. Like the ultimate example of

439
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,877
this is these large enterprise software
companies where you have thousands of

440
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:27,197
people working on one thing and it has
to serve everyone in you know commercial

441
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,277
and consumers and enterprise
and government and it like that is a very

442
00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:33,037
hard problem to build a product with

443
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:35,917
thousands of cooks in the kitchen. All I

444
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,797
have to do is keep making new products

445
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:43,437
and then I keep a small number of cooks
in each kitchen. And uh that that that

446
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,037
that that ends up being a pretty
self-regulating strategy. People are

447
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,957
tribal. People work well with a certain
number of people. Like there's only so

448
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,317
many people you can have very high trust
in where you trust they're truly doing

449
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,197
things for the right reason. You
and where you understand what everyone is

450
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,517
doing around you. It's not that much

451
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,757
bigger than the size of a home

452
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,477
construction crew or a small game

453
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,877
development team or that you kind of see

454
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,597
these natural themes emerge over
and over again across societies and across

455
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,597
history where it's it's these groups of

456
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:15,517
a certain size. you I mean the founding

457
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:21,997
fathers and uh I'm trying to keep every
business unit as close to that size as I

458
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,757
can >> and they're all sort of engineers
and product people not I assume you try to

459
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,597
eliminate middle management and lay >>
there there was a very brief period very

460
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,677
early in Andreal's history where we
had more lawyers and lobbyists than

461
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,437
engineers it was very very brief but you
had we had to overinvest in that when

462
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,837
you're starting a company in such
a complianceheavy regulatoryheavy

463
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:46,157
government interfaceheavy side we have
never ever had that problem since. I'd

464
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,557
say we're about 85% engineering. So,
yeah, we we have we have quite little

465
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,157
overhead. We don't have a ton of middle
management. We have a lot like we

466
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:58,557
basically have project and team leads
that are typically engineers who came up

467
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,957
out of other programs. Like one of our
program leads is a guy um we call him

468
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,877
the king intern because he started he
was Andre's first intern. So, he started

469
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,757
when he was 19 years old at Anderl. We

470
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,677
were his summer internship and then he

471
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,477
quit school, came to Anderl and uh

472
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,117
within 12 months was leading a product
and now he's leading an entire business

473
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,797
division. Uh and like we've done
a pretty good job of making a meritocracy

474
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,997
where people see the people
in leadership roles are themselves

475
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,037
engineers who have cut their teeth
and proven themselves inside of Anderol.

476
00:26:29,120 --> 00:26:31,437
>> Yeah. Um >> and when
you're growing quickly, it's a

477
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,397
lot easier. Like this is a harder
strategy for a stable company and I

478
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,597
can't recommend it. But when you're
introducing products at a sufficiently

479
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,117
high rate, there's always a place
for you to take these people to to pluck

480
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,197
them out and say, "You're going to be
in charge of this new product and you're

481
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,237
going to make it work using your
experience of how to work inside of our

482
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,157
organization and the fact that people
know you and trust you." Uh, static

483
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,437
organizations struggle with this because
like there just aren't enough roles.

484
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,637
It's the it's the how many senior VPs
are there problem. Um, it's uh it's it's

485
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,757
nice to be growing fast. And how do you
come up like I guess a couple questions

486
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,517
on this like one how do you you seem
to follow like everything in hardware and

487
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,077
software [laughter] I watch
your videos and so like I'm

488
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,557
curious how you do that and also how do
you come up with all the ideas for the

489
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,237
products like is that is that bottoms up
is it you is it like how do you keep it

490
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,037
like an active R&D >> I used
to come up with everything I now

491
00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:19,997
come up with about half of our products
the other half come through a

492
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,597
combination of customer demand
and people in the teams coming up with

493
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:27,037
solutions to problems and that's good
like that the the term in the terminal

494
00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,877
stage every idea I have should
worse than the ones my employees are

495
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,717
generating. Um, >> I mean,
that could even be the case

496
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:39,037
today, but I'm the guy in charge.
I'm the one guy that can't be fired. So,

497
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,477
half the ideas are still mine.

498
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:44,077
Hopefully, that shrinks over time.
Um, sorry, what was the other bit of that

499
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,397
question that was in terms >> Well,
just like I'm just curious like

500
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,917
how you kind of keep up with the stuff.

501
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:49,277
>> How do I keep up with weird stuff? I

502
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:52,397
would never admit so in uh in public,

503
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,957
but I do actually keep up
with the academic literature. Oh,

504
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,717
>> um I'm not I >> like which
like of the the computer science

505
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,477
>> in any space that I'm interested in.
So like I I am reading all the journals

506
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,077
that mention synthetic longchain
hydrocarbons. I'm a huge believer in

507
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,157
that. It's going to change everything
and it's going to make this whole

508
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,397
battery electric nonsense look like the

509
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,317
multi- trillion dollar farce that it is,

510
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,437
especially in aviation. Um this is a long
topic, but like I'm not saying, by

511
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,877
the way, the best performers in that
area are not necessarily academic, but

512
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,917
by staying on top of the academic side,
you'll never be too far behind. People

513
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,637
people in academia don't have to create
or produce or sell necessarily. Their

514
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,637
job is just to be on the front lines
of what's new and so they'll never be too

515
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,797
far behind that most of the time. Same
thing with VR. Same thing with optics.

516
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,877
Same thing like >> there's
like good academic stuff in VR

517
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,197
in some of these areas. >> No,
no, there's nothing good but but

518
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,157
they talk about everything.
Okay. Um it's it's it's what it's

519
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,037
>> I think of Yeah. I just don't think >>
think think of it this way. Like suppose

520
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,117
that you were going to try to like you

521
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,397
want to keep up to date with new curved

522
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:58,557
polarizer materials that are used
for making pancake optics where you're

523
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,917
folding optical paths on top
of themselves. You're like I want to stay

524
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,117
on top of this. What are you going to do?
Are you going to read press releases

525
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,037
that of all the companies that are uh
you know touting this stuff uh that the

526
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,477
company that the manufacturers don't
tout this stuff? Like how are you going

527
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:15,597
to stay on top of the fact that there
even are new advancements? And it turns

528
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,637
out a pretty good way is to just follow
the academic literature where you have

529
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,517
people that are doing research on these
things and then they'll like their jobs

530
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,997
say you know oh and you know s such and
such group in in China is doing this and

531
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,957
there's other company that has this
approach. What we propose is a novel

532
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,717
approach to X Y and Z. Now they probably
can't actually do it and they're never

533
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,757
going to pull off anything of interest
but they've still done like the the the

534
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,757
other work. I I am basically using
them as my outsource research team on

535
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,597
anything. If I need to find out what the
state of the art on something is, I can

536
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,157
trust the academics somewhat more than

537
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:50,717
the press because the press just hates
everything. And so, and also they're

538
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,477
lazy. They don't they they they're not
they're not digging deep. They they are

539
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,397
they're basically re the press used
to regurgitate what was given to them in

540
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,877
press releases positively. Now they just
regurgitate it and and the and the the

541
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,477
tenor has changed, but it's the same
it's the same activity. It's just

542
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,357
repeating what's in the press release
and the commentary around it is what's

543
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,157
changed. >> Uh so yeah,
actually I stay up to date a

544
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,477
lot by reading academic academic papers
and journals that are focused on the

545
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,277
things that I'm interested in. The
academics I also love when they complain

546
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:20,877
about people in industry like nuclear.

547
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,677
If you want to stay on top of what's
what's what's going on in nuclear and

548
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,357
you want kind of the contrarian view,
follow what the academics are saying

549
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,357
about modern small modular reactors
and you'll see them talking about new

550
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,637
developments and then complaining about
how they don't work. And sometimes their

551
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,357
complaints are good and sometimes
they make absolutely no sense. But like

552
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,637
>> it tells you what to look at.

553
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,757
>> It tells you what to look at and
and like I I I don't have enough time to

554
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,877
become a real expert [clears throat]
on this stuff. Like I I just people didn't

555
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,597
know I used to be a journalism major
till I dropped out. I was the online

556
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,197
editor of the Daily 49er at Cal State
Long Beach, which was the fourth largest

557
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,437
student run paper
in the country at the time.

558
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:55,197
>> And it's not the Daily 49er anymore.

559
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,557
It's now the Daily Breeze because 49er
is a reference to the Gold Rush. And the

560
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,557
gold rush is racist racist now.
Um that's I'm not kidding. that's why they

561
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,717
did it, which is crazy cuz this team is

562
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,757
still the 49ers. So, how could that be?

563
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,757
Anyway, um the the the the the the paper

564
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,277
decided its name was racist and so they
would rename it after a hundred plus

565
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,397
years. >> Um but you
I what I realized as a

566
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,277
journalist is you can only really follow
so many things yourself directly from

567
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,317
first sources. like if you you could
choose a beat and you could stay on top

568
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,997
of it, but you have to outsource at some
point the research to other people to

569
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,997
consolidate and and bring these things
together. I'm very bullish on using AI

570
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:37,197
at my direction to do this. I want
to be able to send an AI and say scrape

571
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,157
literally everything, the press releases,
the social media chatter, the

572
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,637
academic stuff, and then give me give
me a summary that is not contaminated by

573
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,517
some profit interest
or ideological interest.

574
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,437
>> Yeah, you don't have to convince
this crowd that the press is anti-tech.

575
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,597
Crypto has been the most tra like it's
just unbelievable like for we've tried

576
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,757
for 12 years to have like one reasonable
like article printed about like the

577
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,477
actual stuff going on. >> Well,
and the AI stuff is so hard.

578
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,117
>> The AI start they're starting to feel
it now with all these like fake water

579
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,357
articles and things and it's
going to just heat up more on the

580
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,797
>> It's so funny when people they look
at and say, "Oh, look at Anderl trying to

581
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,957
jump onto the AI grift trying to pretend
that all their stuff's about AI.

582
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,157
>> Been doing it for eight years.

583
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,837
>> The name of my company is literally

584
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,917
Anderil Industries. The acronym is

585
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,197
literally AI. Like [laughter] it's it is

586
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,357
so we we didn't talk about it in the early
days because AI wasn't cool almost

587
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,397
nine years ago. It was like cold fusion
or VR nonsense for the future. Never in

588
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,157
the present. Uh but yeah, it's so funny

589
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,717
to be painted by the media as a as as an

590
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,517
AI uh you know coattail writer when in

591
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,477
fact I've I've been been there before
LLMs were were were were a glimmer in

592
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,597
most people's eye. Yeah. only because
John Carmarmac told me he told me AI was

593
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,837
going to work and that
was why I believed him.

594
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:50,957
>> That's a good person to listen to.

595
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,077
>> He's a good person to listen to.

596
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,837
>> So a big like kind of premise I think
of Andrew, tell me if I'm wrong is is the

597
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,717
ri growing rivalry between the US and
China and I've heard you talk about this

598
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,237
in podcast, but you don't think that on
the current trajectory with the defense

599
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,477
contractors and technology industry
that were well set up for that, right?

600
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:07,837
>> And so maybe you
could talk a little bit

601
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,757
I I would love to hear your thoughts on
that rivalry and then specifically on uh

602
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,397
how you see kind of handicap
the technology race. So AI and you know

603
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,077
robotics >> we're spending way too much
we're getting way too little and we're not

604
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,197
progressing at the rate that
our geopolitical adversaries are

605
00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,197
>> and if it were a perfect if it were
peace time and there was no inkling of

606
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,917
conflict for us or our allies that maybe
wouldn't be a problem. Um but that's not

607
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,597
the world that we live in

608
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:37,597
>> and so uh the rivalry
with China is is a

609
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,037
big one. It was a little broader than
that. I mean, when we started Anderal,

610
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,237
if you look back at the first first
pitch deck, you remember there's a page

611
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,237
with a bear and a pair with
a page with a dragon. And we

612
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,477
lay out what the Chinese road map looks
like. And we laid out what the Russian

613
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,357
road map looked like. And we literally
lay out that Russia is going to invade

614
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,957
Ukraine. They intend to take it by force.
We there's a great quote by Putin

615
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:03,597
where he says, uh, the country that wins
in the sphere of AI will become the

616
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,197
ruler of the entire world. I have a huge
amount of respect for that quote. First

617
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,517
of all, like what an incredible amount

618
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,957
of of style there. Um, I'm not saying

619
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,957
that I like Putin. I super don't.
I arguably started a company to fight

620
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,037
Putin. I'm personally sanctioned
in Russia and Bellarus. I literally cannot

621
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,637
go there without being arrested
by Russian security forces. So, don't take

622
00:34:24,720 --> 00:34:28,077
this in like the I'm going to nail
Palmer to the wall. He said something

623
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,157
good about Putin. But let's like let's
be honest, that's some really good like

624
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:37,837
Bond villain level. Yes. they will
become the ruler of THE ENTIRE WORLD.

625
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,077
>> YOU GOT to understand. >> And he
said that along like you said it was

626
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:43,117
>> he said that speaking to a bunch
of technical students at a technical high

627
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,877
school. >> But a long time ago you're
saying >> yeah back in 2007 like

628
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,597
>> seven. Okay.
>> This this guy was way like Putin must

629
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,637
read a lot of science fiction.
He was >> that's really early. I mean

630
00:34:52,720 --> 00:34:54,237
>> well remember we were quoting it in an

631
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,957
Andal pitch deck in early 2017 before AI

632
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,077
was cool at all. So put like man I would

633
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,197
kill for a US leader to be that far ahead.
Could you imagine if you had if

634
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,757
you had somebody come out I won't even
name who but if you had somebody come

635
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,637
out in the White House he says we
have to hold the Lraange points.

636
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:16,637
Someone has to have the high ground
in orbit. The cis lunar insertion and

637
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,517
transfer pads must be protected if we're

638
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,137
going to extract resources from

639
00:35:22,220 --> 00:35:25,197
[laughter] the belt. Asteroids. Some of

640
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,917
you know what I'm talking about.

641
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,477
And imagine if that was also [applause]
>> could you imagine if that was like from

642
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,477
his own mind and not not something that
somebody wrote that that is Putin. He's

643
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,597
a competent adversary
in these ways. And so

644
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,077
>> um I I yeah like that was that was very
much part of the rivalry. The problem is

645
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,757
of course that now that rivalry is kind
of reached its terminal stage, right?

646
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,117
He's made his move on Ukraine.

647
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,757
Everyone's seen that it's happening.
And so the remaining one that we can

648
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,477
influence is China. >> And you
called out all the drone stuff.

649
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,877
I mean you knew that was all going to h
all the stuff. That's right. Like the

650
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,917
Ukraine drone. >> We we were
talking about literally I

651
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,597
mean our deck laid out exactly what
was going to happen. And it said that

652
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,877
warfare is going to be about a lot
of these proliferated systems. A lot like

653
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,157
it's going to move away from exquisite
things that you build up capacity over

654
00:36:10,240 --> 00:36:13,357
decades to and said lower-end systems
that you can actually manufacture at a

655
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,637
rate that is relevant to an ongoing
conflict. And of course that's exactly

656
00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:21,277
what's what what what's what's exactly
what's happened in Russia. You the very

657
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:25,597
big picture here is we were living
in a world in 2017 where a lot of people

658
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,357
believed we lived at the end of history
that there was no more geopolitical

659
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:33,677
movement of significance to happen
and that the United Nations could write

660
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,157
>> mean letters to dissuade people from

661
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:37,917
expansionist actions. And now what we're

662
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,197
seeing playing out is uh kind of the

663
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,757
more cynical version of of of we're
seeing the cynics the cynics were right.

664
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,997
The cynics who said no war is still
a thing of the present. hopefully not the

665
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,757
future. Uh, and it's a it's a good thing
that companies like Anderrol, I think,

666
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:55,917
were were getting started early on this

667
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,717
because imagine if Andre was started

668
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,797
right as

669
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,357
conflict kicked off in Europe or worse,

670
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,077
being started right as conflict kicks

671
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,037
off over Taiwan uh, with China. It's

672
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,277
it's too late. You you can't start

673
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,397
working on bombs after the war has
started and expect to have any deterrent

674
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,277
impact. you're just going to be part of
fighting wars instead of preventing them.

675
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,197
>> How do you like handicap? So I always
I like with AI I always hear about China

676
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:24,717
US. Now I don't hear Russia as much.

677
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:26,077
Maybe they're good at I don't know.

678
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:27,837
>> But but then like how
do you handicap it? Like

679
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,957
>> well see that's that
that that's true today.

680
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,077
>> It's Putin didn't
say that thinking they

681
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,157
he wasn't saying I think AI is going
to acrue to the winner and I bet the US is

682
00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:41,437
going to beat me. They were investing
a lot. It's just they they didn't take the

683
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,117
winning path, right? like they they
didn't do some of these like the kind of

684
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,957
attentionbased models, focus based
models like it just that wasn't the path

685
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,277
they went on.
They didn't get the winning path.

686
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,357
>> And so you're right, it's mostly US and
China now. Russia's trying to catch up.

687
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,117
But he he he said this at a time where
he thought that was going to be their

688
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,557
asymmetric advantage. He thought they
were going to figure out all the all the

689
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,517
killer drone stuff way ahead
of everybody else and he would have put it

690
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,677
to work before anyone else even knew how

691
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,677
to respond. Imagine if Putin had made

692
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,877
chat GPT is kind of the the simplified

693
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,117
version I use for members of Congress.

694
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,117
>> Yeah. But like with the way I sort
of like America has we have this sort of

695
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,717
decentralized capitalist system. China
has a centralized obviously command and

696
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,117
control. >> They have
more people. They're very

697
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,077
smart. The deepseek and all these other
things show they caught up very quickly.

698
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,917
They're ahead of manufacturing. Yep.

699
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,517
Like you we you know on the flip side
like I think this superpower of the

700
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,997
United States right is the very fact
that every thing everyone's complaining

701
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:39,277
about in the press right now which is we
just like the hyperscalers just invested

702
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:43,117
a trillion dollars in like and is it
a bubble maybe? Who knows? But it's a good

703
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,357
thing because this is what we do.
This is what we're good at.

704
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,597
>> It's an advantage we have.
>> It's the animal it's the capitalist

705
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,637
animal spirits, right? Like it's like
the you know it's like the internet.

706
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,437
It's like building out the fiber.
Like you need you need this excitement and

707
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,277
capitalism. >> We need
to choose advantages that the

708
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,437
United States has. Like this. This is
the one issue with the one issue with

709
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,037
re-industrialization is that China has
already done a really good job there.

710
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,197
I'm not saying we shouldn't. We should.

711
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,957
But we need advantages that take
advantage of our better financial

712
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:13,037
apparatus. Arguably that take better
advantage of our cultural apparatus.

713
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,877
Certainly that take advantage of a unique
fact which is the US has friends

714
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,597
or at least partners all over the world.

715
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,837
China doesn't have that. China has not
convinced the world to host the Chinese

716
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:27,837
military, to host Chinese culture.
The United States needs to lean into the

717
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,837
remaining advantages we do have.
We should re-industrialize. I'm not saying

718
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,517
we can win, you know, all all on our on,
you know, we can't win without doing

719
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,037
that, but there it's it's
not enough on its own.

720
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,397
>> Um, and you you recently started a like
a stable coin related um crypto like

721
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,477
bank, right? >> It's a little
more boring than that.

722
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,157
Everyone's calling it Palmer Ly's crypto
bank. It's it's not so much a crypto

723
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:53,997
bank as a bank that does support stable
coin deposits and transfers because of

724
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,117
course any bank is going to need
to support these things. If you want 24/7

725
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:02,157
liquidity and you want 247 settlement
and you want it every day of the year

726
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:05,037
with every country around the world,
you're going to have to do it via stable

727
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,877
coins like and like reg.
>> It's just obvious how that's going to

728
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,317
happen. So everyone's seized on Palmer
Lucky is doing all this crypto stuff.

729
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,597
It's actually way more boring. It's it's
a bank that's a modern bank in a way.

730
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:17,517
Like >> in in in many
ways it's the most boring

731
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,077
bank there could be. We originally were
thinking of calling it the real bank,

732
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:25,517
but it turns out that the slogan I think
of City Bank is uh the real the it's the

733
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,477
real something bank. I can't remember
what it was. It's not a good slogan.

734
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,477
Okay. >> Um anyway, we're going to call
it the real bank, but it was a very simple

735
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,557
thought. Okay, SVB is collapsing.

736
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:36,957
>> Yeah. >> Turns out
that there's more risk in the

737
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,797
system than people thought. uh it's
potentially more widespread and like

738
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,877
like yes SVB did some things that someone
could avoid but there's a lot of

739
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,477
things that are inherent to the way that
current banking is done. So our idea was

740
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,237
what would a bank look like if its job

741
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,877
was to serve companies who more than

742
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:57,837
every half percent of interest on their
deposits actually just really needs

743
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,677
their money to be there and not
disappear like that. So, so it's narrow

744
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:02,877
banking, not fractional reserve.

745
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:06,717
>> I I So, >> yeah, [snorts] >> I
think that there needs to be onetoone

746
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,157
banking in the United States.
Not all banking. I'm not saying every bank

747
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:13,597
should be like this, but the product
should be available. I started going

748
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,317
around talking to banks. I said, "All
right, I've got this thing. I want you

749
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,677
to take my money >> and then
you have it when I come to get

750
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,037
it. [laughter] It's the It's
the only thing you're going to do."

751
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,037
>> It's called It's called, by the way,
it's called narrow banking. And like

752
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,917
there was a there was actually a company
that tried to do it recently and under

753
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,357
the B administration
and they got shot down

754
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,397
>> and the government doesn't want anyone
to do this is part of the crazy scheme.

755
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,397
I know like no like like this there's
a reason the banks aren't doing this and

756
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,037
it's not just that nobody's smart. It's
that the government doesn't really want

757
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:40,637
it to happen. >> Well yeah
they claim it's because then

758
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:43,837
you would hurt the credit system and all
those other things. But it's to your

759
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,717
point I think shouldn't you be able
to like have at least some people opt out

760
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,157
and actually have that has your put your
money there. Well, and by the way, you

761
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,197
can, you know, you can do it if you have
a T- bill, for example, then you have a

762
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,717
QIP or there custodial. It's bankruptcy
remote. And so, it's effectively

763
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,437
available to wealthier people,
but not to the retail

764
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,637
>> and and not available or a lot of these
tech companies, including smaller tech.

765
00:42:02,720 --> 00:42:05,677
So, that was the question. How do we
make a bank that would give people the

766
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:09,197
things they need from a bank without
the parts that are going to destroy their

767
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,317
entire business? I mean, if if the like
let's be real, if the federal government

768
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,637
would not have bailed out SVB customers

769
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:19,357
far beyond what the law required, and if
the Biden administration would not have

770
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:24,077
more or less spuriously declared
that the Signature Bank deal was actually

771
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,597
signs of systemic collapse, which
is nonsense. Like, if they wouldn't have

772
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,917
done that, it would have wiped out a lot
of tech companies. And so, that that

773
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,717
what what we're trying to do with Arabore
is is actually a lot more boring

774
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,877
than many people think, but there is there
is a market for it. Imagine a bank

775
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:43,037
that doesn't debank you and has
your money when you want it and actually

776
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,237
maybe gives you interest would be
another radical idea which you know

777
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,277
Jennif that's the big debate
point in the stable coin bill

778
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,717
>> is that they're trying to undo this now
is this thing where you actually pay

779
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,637
interest to customers >> I'm
very famili you can pay rewards to

780
00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:59,357
customers but you can't pay >> so
even that they're trying to ban rewards

781
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,317
>> they're trying well that that was like
yeah that was the negotiated now they're

782
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,677
trying to get they're trying to undo
the deal the way that I look at look at it

783
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,117
is this there is a lot more risk in
banking system than anyone is willing to

784
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,877
admit. It only works if everyone stays

785
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,357
in the matrix and doesn't doesn't look

786
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,157
at the at how it all works.

787
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:21,437
>> And I probably cannot build a bank that
survives a total financial collapse. But

788
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,677
if you guys familiar with the theory
of of of the bear, uh the bear is chasing

789
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,077
you. He's chasing people around you. You

790
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:33,037
don't have to outrun the bear. You have
to outrun everyone else. And so I think

791
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:37,277
you might you might not be able to make
it where every bank fails. uh and and

792
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:41,197
you survive, but you can make it where
you're one of the survivors in a world

793
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,717
where something really bad happens,
something that is beyond what is what

794
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:45,837
the government could feasibly bail out.

795
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,557
And by the way, when I say feasibly bail
out, I don't just mean financially. I

796
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,397
mean politically. I am actually
astounded that the Biden administration

797
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:56,317
bailed out a bunch of billionaires like me

798
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,797
in the midst of this huge populist shift,
right or left. and they the fact

799
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:04,637
that they did it for rational reasons,
but like I'm surprised they didn't do

800
00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:07,597
the thing that would have been popular
with their base. And it's not hard to

801
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,557
imagine a world where a different White
House would do something different. And

802
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:11,837
this is not a right or a left thing.

803
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,917
It's a popular, it's a populism

804
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,957
argument. Uh we will we live in a world
where politicians can make rational risk

805
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,637
management, systemic, you know,
financial collapse risk management if

806
00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:25,197
it's going to make them look
like they're in the pockets of the

807
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,477
billionaires. I think maybe not. I
think you could end up a war of the world

808
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,557
where there's massive economic pain

809
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,677
because it's not politically uh viable
to do the right thing for the country.

810
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,397
And so that that's that's the world
that I'm trying to prepare for.

811
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:40,637
>> The billionaires,
the millionaires were,

812
00:44:40,720 --> 00:44:44,557
you know, if if Bernie has his way,
if Bernie got in the White House and he's

813
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,597
he's not that far away, you know, he's
he's he's like at one point he was a he

814
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,837
was a few superdelegates away from
winning winning a general election. Uh

815
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,597
it's it's something to ponder.
Bernie can still

816
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:56,797
>> if we have an economic
collapse, I think

817
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,917
that the well, I don't know if we want
to get to politics, but the I I mean I

818
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,717
look I think I think that the politics
>> we're not into politics.

819
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,437
>> Yeah. So, um, so I mean, you know, the
Mandami winning in New York like I think

820
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,197
we what we saw that's a great example.

821
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,557
>> Yeah. The Republican party has shifted
to this kind of nationalist populist

822
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,757
movement with Trump and Vance. That's
why I said it's not really Democrats may

823
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,037
shift to that and who knows like we're
into I think we're an uncharted I mean

824
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,797
it's a real realignment I think in the
sense of maybe since FDR or something we

825
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,437
haven't had such a realignment
of the parties and it makes it very

826
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,757
unpredictable and you have a bad economy

827
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,717
and you know a there were only a few
dominoes falling away from some really

828
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,877
weird outcomes in my opinion. >> Yep.

829
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,717
>> Yep. But but like
in the case of Arabore, the most

830
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,357
>> the riskiest asset like the riskiest

831
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,637
product we're offering is lending with a
50% uh loan to deposit ratio which would

832
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,917
make it one of like like that's
the riskiest product is one of the most

833
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,757
conservative ratios in the entire
country. So >> it's smart. I mean

834
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,037
>> and luckily this administration
is willing to sign off on it which in the

835
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:58,637
past they've not been
a fan of these things.

836
00:45:58,720 --> 00:46:02,477
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um that's awesome. Um
so maybe last question then we'll take a

837
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,837
question from the audience. Um,
just since you're like such a futuristic

838
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,357
thinker, I'd love to hear like I I I

839
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,277
feel like all these things like sci-fi
things that I've I heard you talking

840
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,877
about Robert Heinland on the podcast.
I just I just read Stranger to Strange

841
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,837
Land recently.
I love I love Starship Trooper.

842
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,757
>> It's so funny when people call him
a fascist because of Starship Troopers and

843
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:25,117
they've clearly never read other

844
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,757
Heinland. Like Heinland also wrote

845
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,957
basically like proworker pro-communist

846
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:35,197
where like there's works where literal
communists who seize the means of

847
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,597
production from the private
companies are the heroes of it.

848
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:40,477
>> Have you read stranger stream? I just
read it's I've read every single line.

849
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,597
>> It's crazy. It's like this hippie it's
like electric cool assets. It's great. I

850
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:45,837
mean it's amazing.
>> He's just he's just a great sci-fi

851
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:48,797
author. It's so funny when people try
to blow it down. He must be a fascist

852
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,477
because the government has
some fascistic attendancies.

853
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:54,717
>> Starship he's critiquing it I think.

854
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:59,837
Yeah. He's he he he he does it all.
He makes fun of everyway. Yeah. Love.

855
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,657
>> But but I feel like to my question,
I feel like all of this stuff that's

856
00:47:03,740 --> 00:47:06,237
[clears throat] been talked about
my whole life um is like suddenly

857
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,197
happening. Like I don't know. I'm not
I know nothing about energy, but my

858
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:10,957
friends tell me fusion may happen.

859
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,037
Quantum computing, the experts, some
of the experts here say, you know, it may

860
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:16,717
be actually starting to happen.

861
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,837
>> Obviously, crypto AI AI is clearly
happening. We believe crypto will

862
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,117
happen. Yep. >> Um it feels
like there's all of these

863
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,477
things that have just been talked about.

864
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,037
I mean, there's stuff in biology,
there's stuff, you know, you're doing

865
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,557
in, you know, autonomous systems,
humanoid robots, like

866
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,077
>> inter species communication.

867
00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:34,717
>> Feels like all this stuff is happening
now. And I'm just curious like, do you

868
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:37,757
think that's true? And what's going to h
like in the next 30 is it like is like

869
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,157
to your point about history
starting again. It feels like

870
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,357
>> like we had, you know, Peter Teal
talks about we had 50 years only digital

871
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,077
innovation. And >> you know,
if you if you were born in

872
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,917
1890, you saw the invention of the
airplane and and a person a man on the

873
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,517
moon and then it physical world stuff
kind of stopped. But it really feels

874
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,997
like both history and your sense of like
wars restarting, land war in Europe, bad

875
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,437
obviously terrible things like that. But
at the same time on the tech side, like

876
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,357
all this cool shit's happening
all at once and it feels very real.

877
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,117
>> Our understanding of the world is
progressing so fast and there's a lot of

878
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,597
things that don't require even
technological breakthroughs. Like I

879
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,037
the most exciting thing about what's
going on right now in my opinion is that

880
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:19,997
it's mostly not actually technological

881
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,717
progress. It's psychological or you
could even call it quasi religious

882
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,397
progress catching up with the science
that was figured out decades ago. That's

883
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,957
this whole nuclear thing.
All this nuclear energy stuff, it is just

884
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,397
everyone's willingness to do nuclear
catching up with the technology,

885
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,357
>> political cultural will.
>> A lot of this bioscience, there's a lot

886
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,717
of things that have been proposed for
decades that are only just now actually

887
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,557
being tested. I mean, here's another
example. We've understood oxytocin,

888
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,757
which is one of the primary mamleian
pair bonding chemicals. We've understood

889
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,077
how it works for decades. We've been
like actively using it to help uh like

890
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,677
postpartum depressed mothers bond
with their kids. It's like, "Oh, you hate

891
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,317
your baby. Look at your baby and we're
going to give you this shot. What the

892
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,637
You love your baby now. It's incredible."
And there's people who are

893
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:08,637
talking about using it in totally
novel ways. For example, doing divorce

894
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:11,517
counseling and we've understood the

895
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,797
mechanism of it for 50 years now. And

896
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,797
it's literally just a willingness to just
do things. And so I'm excited about

897
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,237
the new science. I'm excited about new
fusion. There's a lot of just do things

898
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,957
that's going on right now. >> And some
of it's infrastructure. Like AI

899
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,237
is really about GPUs, right? Like a lot
of it engineer. It's just like isn't it

900
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,557
too? Like just the timing of like
all the stuff came into place.

901
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,357
>> We got so lucky. What a crazy
coincidence. You basically had all these

902
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,517
GPUs for gaming. By the way, >> Oculus
when we were acquired by Facebook

903
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,917
almost bought Nvidia back when they were

904
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,757
worth about $7 billion and we were

905
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:47,277
looking at doing a 51% takeover now. But
here's the and you people say, "Oh man,

906
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,317
imagine if we would have gone
through with that project."

907
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:51,437
>> But they never would
have done what they

908
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,397
did, right? It was gaming and then
the gaming stuff happened to be useful for

909
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,917
all the proof of work and staking stuff
in crypto. And then that ended up also

910
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,677
being very similar to what we needed
for AI. Like man, what an incredible

911
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:03,597
coincidence we live in in in in that

912
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,157
world. uh of there's there's an

913
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:09,357
interesting argument where uh where uh

914
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,677
Oculus would have gone and got Nvidia
and AMD and centralized them and then

915
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,557
only focused on gaming and then
we wouldn't have any of this stuff.

916
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,477
>> Um >> it's a it's a crazy world.

917
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,437
>> Um and do you think so do you think
we're entering into this sort of unpre

918
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,997
like maybe unprecedented 20
30 year period of experience?

919
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,597
>> Absolutely.
I I'll look I'll give you my

920
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:30,077
my thesis for optimism. People know
that I I'm I'm a pretty I'm a pretty happy

921
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:31,677
guy. It seems like I'm having a good

922
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,917
time. It's because I remind myself the

923
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,277
oats are like a dollar for some large

924
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,917
number of pounds of oats. Uh you you can

925
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,637
you can you can work for one you can
work for one hour of minimum wage at a

926
00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:48,717
federal level and earn enough calories
to survive an entire week. It's the best

927
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,237
it's ever been. Nobody's been able
to do that. And it's not just oats. It's

928
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,637
agriculture in general. Modern
pesticides controls Roundup machinery.

929
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:59,517
We've figured out how to make food really,
really well. We throw away most

930
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,037
of it. That's how good we are at making
it. And the same has been true I think

931
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,837
for clothing. How many outfits do you own?

932
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:06,957
>> 20 or something. I don't know.

933
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,957
>> And how many would have you have
owned as a rich guy even you know even 50

934
00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,317
years ago. How about 100 years ago?
How about 200 years ago? We've just made

935
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:18,237
clothes so cheap. People buy clothes and
they throw them away after wearing them

936
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,157
one time. And you don't even have to be
rich to do that. Like that there there

937
00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:26,077
are people who are in college
working part-time who do this. Yeah.

938
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,277
>> And I think that what you're going
to see is that same level of automation

939
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:33,037
that has dominated textiles
and agriculture start to apply to

940
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,957
everything. I think AI is going to make
it easier for the resource extraction,

941
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:41,517
processing, and manufacturing to like I
really do believe that in our lifetimes,

942
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,197
you'll be able to go buy something
that's like a Ford F-150 for $1,000 or

943
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,877
the equivalent >> cost of cost of the >>
the cost of extracting and transforming

944
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:52,477
it will go to near zero and we're going
to compete the margins way down. It's

945
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:55,597
it's just not that crazy. And so if
you can do and I bet you'll be able to

946
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,197
recycle it with 90% efficiency
at the end of the season. You'll say what

947
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,197
what's what's my summer car going to be?

948
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:05,437
Let's go down to the mall and buy one
and and and and we'll try it out. Same

949
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,797
thing I think for housing. Housing
is going to come extremely cheap. The

950
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,837
components are not expensive. It's
the transformation and the regulation that

951
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,077
have made it really hard.
>> The policy is is a bottleneck.

952
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,877
>> Correct. And so I think that this
is what I mean when I say we don't need

953
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:20,157
technological breakthrough so much as we
just need to just do things and like the

954
00:52:20,240 --> 00:52:23,117
the tech to do this is going to catch up.
Like, you know why manufactured

955
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,557
housing isn't big in the US?
It's just anti-manufactured housing laws.

956
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:30,957
Literally prohibiting housing that is
manufactured not on site. It's one of

957
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,117
the most anti-American sets of laws that
there's ever been. I confidently believe

958
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:38,317
that the founding fathers, if they were
around, would make this a federal issue.

959
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,077
And they would say, "We are not going
to allow we are not going to allow local

960
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,117
governments to decide." Like,
if you want to say a house of a certain

961
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,797
appearance is one thing, that's fine,
but you cannot like this is a real

962
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:52,717
interstate commerce issue. You cannot
effectively prohibit other states with

963
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:57,437
competing with your housing industry by
prohibiting any housing that was created

964
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,197
majority outside of your state lines.

965
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:03,357
That's that's that's crazy. And we've
probably spent I don't know a hundred

966
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,277
trillion dollars on housing that we
didn't need to because of that. Anyway,

967
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,717
there's all this stuff is is is going
in a good direction. That's why I'm

968
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,957
optimistic about the future. The future
of the current present of oats is the

969
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,957
future of everything.
>> Amazing. Um [applause]

970
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,317
the uh this is great. So uh let's maybe
take some questions from the from the

971
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:24,077
audience. >> Thank you Pro.
Super interesting

972
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:28,717
conversation. Uh I uh have a question
about your structures. You you you you

973
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,637
were speaking about how you have a lot
of small teams and this feels like it's

974
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:36,077
optimizing for the number of products
you can iterate on and figure out what

975
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,437
works not for manufacturing uh very

976
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,797
efficiently making the the cost of unit
uh uh as low as possible. And I'm coming

977
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:48,077
from Ukraine. I have spoken to some
people in defense industry there and

978
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,597
their criticism for Unreal was exactly
this that your products are very

979
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,117
expensive and what they need right
now on the front front line is like

980
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,357
something very very cheap just like
we had it in the second world war where

981
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:03,517
like German engineering was way superior
to the Soviet one but the Soviets just

982
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,837
had massive quantities of the tanks

983
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,717
which were stupid uh lame easy to to

984
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,517
destroy but the the sheer quantities uh

985
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:16,877
uh eventually won uh how are you
thinking about this sure is are we in a

986
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,917
situation where the China has
already won the race on uh on cheap

987
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,597
manufacturing are like are you are you
like generally what are your thoughts on

988
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,917
this very curious >> so they've
definitely kind of won by any

989
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:30,877
rational definition and so we're
probably not going to approach Chinese

990
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,757
cost luckily the US has more money
and we're more you know we make more money

991
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:39,117
per person and so we can probably afford
a little bit of an efficiency on the

992
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:42,157
Ukraine side that one's really
interesting because we've had hardware

993
00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:46,237
and people in Ukraine since the second
week of the or I've been to Ukraine

994
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,757
during the war myself and we we we've
been a part of US aid packages, European

995
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:53,037
aid packages. We've even sold some
things directly to Ukraine, but to your

996
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:56,157
point, mostly higherend stuff, long
range loitering munitions that can get

997
00:54:56,240 --> 00:55:00,557
through jamming bubbles. And what
they really need is large amounts of

998
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,237
industrial industrial levels of firepower.
I mean, like they need a lot

999
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,157
of really small, cheap drones. They also
just need a bunch of artillery shells.

1000
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:11,517
They need a bunch of mortar shells.
The biggest problem for a company like

1001
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,917
Anderl and and and it's a fair criticism
that people have made. The thing is I

1002
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,517
can't compete with for example Eastern
European manufactured artillery or

1003
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,717
mortar rounds. I I just can't do that in
the US no matter how smart I think about

1004
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,717
it. And I've I make solid rocket motors.

1005
00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:28,717
I've wanted to make Energetics get
into the artillery shell business. The

1006
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,117
problem is I just cannot compete with

1007
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:36,317
what is a quite powerful arms industry
that exists in a lot of of the Baltics

1008
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,357
and Eastern European countries that are
that are supporting Ukraine. The problem

1009
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:43,037
is that you to automate everything you
have to get to a sufficient scale. And

1010
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,997
so one thing I've done is I've
approached multiple administrations said

1011
00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,317
hey we need to commit to for example
supplying 155 you know artillery shells

1012
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:53,597
to not just Ukraine but all of these
allies. We need to build the you know

1013
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,197
the alien dreadnot where the metal goes
in and the shells come out. So are you

1014
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:59,757
are you familiar with how artillery
shell manufacturing happens in the

1015
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,197
United States? Here's the actual problem.
the facilities are literally

1016
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,117
owned by the government and then they
actually lease them out to operators who

1017
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,477
then use them to develop stuff. And so
if you try to compete with them, the

1018
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,877
government explicitly says, "But this
will it'll be like it's it's a waste of

1019
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:18,077
investment because we've already made
our investment in these facilities." So

1020
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,237
like I I'm I'm I I want to solve these
problems, but in general, Andre's looked

1021
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,797
at these things kind of quasi
realistically. I'm waging this this war

1022
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:30,157
of hearts and minds to explain why that
is the dumbest thing ever. They need to

1023
00:56:30,240 --> 00:56:33,677
open it up for competition. I think what
they should do is say we're not going to

1024
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:37,677
give you welfare to make your artillery
line. We're going to say that the first

1025
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:41,917
company to build something using private
capital and be get to sufficiency. Oh,

1026
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,717
we're going to award them a contract for
this much and they have to hit a certain

1027
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,037
price point and a certain scale and only
then are we committed to buying and they

1028
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:51,917
just don't want to do that because they
have their own centrally planned scheme.

1029
00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:55,357
There's a lot of there's a lot of secret
communism going on in the United States.

1030
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:57,677
A lot of secret Soviet thinking uh that

1031
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,077
is just hidden behind a veneer of the

1032
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:04,797
flag. Um the other so that that's kind
of like the artillery issue. When you

1033
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,797
get to the small drones, it actually
gets to I'm competing like my biggest

1034
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,317
competitor for building small drones.

1035
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,757
Like I to be clear, I want to build
small attack drones for Ukraine and I

1036
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:18,557
want to be cost competitive there. But I'm
competing with Ukraine using largely

1037
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,077
Chinese components, right? Most of these
internally assembled drones, they're

1038
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,877
built using Chinese flight controllers,
Chinese sensors, Chinese stuff. I'm

1039
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,957
prohibited from using those. So Andre
is sanctioned by China. Our entire seauite

1040
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,317
is sanctioned by China. The government
in the US prohibits us from making

1041
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,317
weapons using these Chinese components.

1042
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:38,077
And so I can come in and say, "Hey,
I have this thing that is cheap, but you

1043
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:42,237
know, instead of it being a $900 drone,
it is it is a $2,000 drone." And people

1044
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,797
in Ukraine say, "Well, that's expensive,
and how am I ever going to do

1045
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:47,437
that?" And I say, "You're right. If
you're willing to use Chinese stuff, I I

1046
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,197
I literally can't compete." Um, and this
has been a smart move by China, by the

1047
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,757
way. This is why China keeps, you know,
they they they they do this because it

1048
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:57,917
actually cripples my ability to compete.

1049
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:01,517
Um, there's other stuff that I do that's
just too expensive for Ukraine. And I'm

1050
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,997
trying to make it I'm trying to make it
cheaper. I want our learning munitions

1051
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,077
to be more less expensive. But, for

1052
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:11,037
example, I'm required to use a certain
navigation system that the government

1053
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:14,797
has approved for munitions of this
category. And they also require us to

1054
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,317
use it because they want us to sell
anti-tamper stuff using approved parts

1055
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:20,957
where Ukraine can't go in and say, "Ah,

1056
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:25,517
this was able to go, you know,
400 kilometers." But if I just strap on a

1057
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:28,317
bigger battery and I can tweak it,
I'm going to go to Moscow. Another example

1058
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,117
of this, like I wanted uh I actually
wanted to sell surveillance towers to

1059
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:34,957
Ukraine before this war even started.

1060
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,917
And that wasn't something that I came up
with. It was something Zalinsky came up

1061
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,597
with it. He read a wired article
about Anderl talking about how we were

1062
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,917
securing the US southern border.
And when he was in the US for his first UN

1063
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:49,277
meeting after winning his election, he
wanted to meet with Anderl to talk about

1064
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,157
what it would look like to have our
towers on his border so they could know

1065
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,117
how Russia was building things up,
how they would cross. And then we ran into

1066
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,757
this problem where the US State
Department basically put the kibos on

1067
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:02,077
the whole thing. They said, "No,
Russia's not going to invade Ukraine. Uh

1068
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:05,917
Zalinski is basically just angling
for welfare. He's trying to be a saber

1069
00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:10,237
rattler." And so like the people who
made those decisions, they're still in

1070
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,117
the State Department. They're still
making these the these things. So I've

1071
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,837
to a certain degree I've got my hands
tied behind my back. I'll say, "I want

1072
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,557
to make a $2,000 attack drone."
They say, "Well, you have to use this

1073
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,557
approved thing. You can only use this
approved warhead. You have to make it

1074
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,357
anti-tamper so the Ukrainians can't make
it do things that we don't want them to

1075
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,637
do." And [snorts] the net of that is
what you're talking about. People in

1076
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:30,717
Ukraine saying, "And stuff is expensive
and it's locked down and it doesn't and

1077
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,917
you can't modify it." And and I say,
"Yeah, that sucks. Look, I like I've

1078
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:37,517
been to Kev. I've been to Lviv and I've
I've trained people on how to use our

1079
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,637
systems and I've heard this feedback
face to face and it's really hard to

1080
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:44,957
tell a guy who's telling you that people
are dying because of it like oh well

1081
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:49,277
sorry I'm I you know I wish I could do
better but that's the that's the short

1082
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:52,957
one more thing you're right that we have
a lot of these different things and that

1083
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,317
is good for figuring out what works
not necessarily for scale some of those

1084
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,197
things are getting to scale like
our towers are very much at scale we're on

1085
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:03,917
35 bases around the world we're covering
about 30% of the US southern border now

1086
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:05,437
a bunch of the northern border as well.

1087
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,877
It's like our towers have scaled really
well. Um, same thing with our counter

1088
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:12,477
drone systems. Like we're the program of
record for all of SOCOM's drone defense.

1089
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,197
We're the program of record for all
of the Marine Corps's drone defense. So,

1090
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,357
some of these things are scaling. It's
these newer things like I guess my my my

1091
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:22,477
if I have a critic who says Palmer,
but you have all these things that haven't

1092
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,237
scaled. I say, well, guess what? Every
single Android product that is more than

1093
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,757
5 years old has scaled. It takes time
to get the government to scale these

1094
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,677
things, but we don't have any examples
of a product that we did that didn't

1095
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:37,277
scale once it had enough time.
Every product in our we've been around for

1096
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,517
almost nine years. Every product that
was started more than 5 years ago is in

1097
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,117
major scaling mode. It's just we have
a lot of other things that are newer and

1098
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:48,157
they're there I'm sure there will be
some failures, but uh you know it's

1099
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:52,477
flipping coins. You don't need to get
a heads every time to to beat the house. I

1100
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:55,117
think you see what I mean when I said
the Joe Rogan thing is like the best

1101
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,477
thing to watch because he just gave us
a preview of it. Um, that's amazing. Thank

1102
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:01,917
you. There's like you have like a million
great stories. So, thank you so much.

1103
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,480
>> Of course. >> Yeah. [applause]