WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.740 - We're talking about a society that was right in the middle 00:00:04.260 --> 00:00:08.217 of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions 00:00:08.300 --> 00:00:13.229 in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood that you can possibly live 00:00:13.312 --> 00:00:18.857 in. - 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years. 00:00:18.940 --> 00:00:20.860 - Yes. It's tremendous instability. 00:00:21.020 --> 00:00:24.837 - Almost all were of these emperors were generals, and almost all were 00:00:24.920 --> 00:00:31.200 murdered by their men. So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, 00:00:31.580 --> 00:00:34.540 plus there's a plague. There's just a lot of chaos. 00:00:34.760 --> 00:00:38.277 - Here's why I don't think the Eastern Roman Empire is a military 00:00:38.360 --> 00:00:42.120 dictatorship. Even though, again, the emperors control the armies, 00:00:43.120 --> 00:00:47.560 and the armies themselves will often have a say in, 00:00:48.500 --> 00:00:52.317 Who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. The reason 00:00:52.400 --> 00:00:55.877 why I don't think it's a military dictatorship is because 00:00:55.960 --> 00:01:02.960 they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social 00:01:03.500 --> 00:01:07.197 control. Sometimes these eunuchs were extremely competent 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.117 like Narses, Justinian's general, who defeated the Goths in Italy in this 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.057 massive battle. Like, this guy was a total hardass. And he's this little 00:01:15.140 --> 00:01:18.336 old man. He was- he was very old, and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch, 00:01:18.420 --> 00:01:22.440 and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh. 00:01:24.800 --> 00:01:28.457 - The following is a conversation with Anthony Kaldellis, a 00:01:28.540 --> 00:01:34.700 historian of the Eastern Roman Empire, also known as the Byzantine Empire. 00:01:35.600 --> 00:01:39.517 This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the 00:01:39.600 --> 00:01:43.170 description, where you can also find links to contact me, 00:01:43.540 --> 00:01:46.917 ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And 00:01:47.000 --> 00:01:50.680 now, dear friends, here's Anthony Kaldellis. 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:55.860 You've described that the Byzantine Empire is the Roman 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.797 Empire, that calling it the Byzantine Empire is an invention of 00:01:59.880 --> 00:02:03.560 historians writing long after the empire has collapsed, 00:02:04.060 --> 00:02:07.917 that the people of that time considered themselves Romans, and that 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:11.620 the so-called Byzantine Empire never actually existed, that it was, 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.460 in every legal and cultural sense, the Roman Empire 00:02:15.880 --> 00:02:22.682 continuing unbroken. So let's get our terms right in the grand historical 00:02:22.765 --> 00:02:23.599 context. 00:02:24.020 --> 00:02:28.300 What is the Byzantine Empire, and why should we just call it the Roman Empire? 00:02:28.640 --> 00:02:32.537 - So Lex, the burden of proof is on those who would assert that what we've been 00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:35.067 calling the Byzantine Empire is something other- 00:02:35.150 --> 00:02:38.203 ... than the Roman Empire, because all of our sources are very clear about this. 00:02:38.287 --> 00:02:39.037 And we've known about 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.361 this. We've always known about it. It's almost a form of cognitive dissonance, 00:02:42.444 --> 00:02:42.657 right? 00:02:42.740 --> 00:02:46.790 It's like when you know something is the case, but you carry on as if it's not. 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:51.037 So the Eastern Roman Empire, this is the direct continuation 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.617 of the ancient Roman Empire in the East, right? Everybody knows the Western Empire 00:02:54.700 --> 00:02:56.110 fell in the fifth century. 00:02:57.340 --> 00:03:00.685 And for many conceptions of Western history, that was sufficient. Like, 00:03:00.769 --> 00:03:04.469 that's when we just called it. The Roman Empire fell in the fifth century. 00:03:05.100 --> 00:03:07.860 And we kinda, yeah, we kinda know that the eastern half survived, 00:03:07.943 --> 00:03:09.057 but we don't wanna include 00:03:09.140 --> 00:03:12.877 that in our cultural genealogy. And so we kinda pretend that it became 00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:16.817 something else. But in fact, it called itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:20.385 Roman citizens. They called themselves Romans all the way down through to the end 00:03:20.468 --> 00:03:25.877 and beyond. So there are a number of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to 00:03:25.960 --> 00:03:29.950 think that the Eastern Empire is something different, and those reasons have 00:03:30.040 --> 00:03:31.420 created these models where 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:34.997 They were, they called it Empire of the Greeks for 1,000 years, 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:36.297 then they switched to Byzantine 00:03:36.380 --> 00:03:39.990 Empire for very political reasons. Now that's collapsing. 00:03:40.440 --> 00:03:44.257 So we're now moving into a phase where we have the long Roman Empire. We, 00:03:44.340 --> 00:03:47.690 we recognize that the history of the Roman state, the Roman polity, 00:03:48.490 --> 00:03:51.140 is something that lasts an extraordinarily long time. 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:55.050 Very unique almost in history, from antiquity, 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:58.440 like the archaic period, down to the 15th century. 00:03:59.000 --> 00:04:01.317 - I think it would be really nice to actually look 00:04:01.400 --> 00:04:05.180 just for a brief moment at the grand scale of the, 00:04:05.280 --> 00:04:11.100 the full Roman state as it lasted for over 2,200 years. 00:04:11.440 --> 00:04:11.897 - Yeah. 00:04:11.980 --> 00:04:18.980 - So its founding, 753 BC, to let's say the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD. 00:04:21.400 --> 00:04:25.260 So can we try to give a big picture overview of everything that happened? 00:04:25.820 --> 00:04:29.697 - Okay, so first we have a period of the kings. This is almost legendary, from 00:04:29.780 --> 00:04:33.710 like the eighth century BC down to around 510 BC. 00:04:34.120 --> 00:04:36.970 So this is when Rome is ruled by a series of local kings. 00:04:37.560 --> 00:04:41.240 The kings are expelled, and the republic, or what we call the republic, 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:45.440 is instituted, and this is a regime that's governed by mostly 00:04:45.620 --> 00:04:49.517 an aristocracy, but with cooperation from the 00:04:49.600 --> 00:04:53.277 people of Rome. In various ways, the arrangements change over the 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:55.860 centuries. So that lasts for about five centuries. 00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:00.477 And then we have the end of the republic in the era of Julius Caesar and 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:05.750 Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead to the creation of an imperial monarchy... 00:05:05.880 --> 00:05:09.730 ...right, under Augustus. So that's, we date that roughly either, 00:05:10.180 --> 00:05:14.117 yeah, 27 BC, something like that. And thereafter, it is an 00:05:14.200 --> 00:05:16.920 imperial monarchy for the next millennium and a half. 00:05:17.940 --> 00:05:21.857 Very broadly, we can divide that into two phases, one where the 00:05:21.940 --> 00:05:26.340 center of power is in Rome, and one where it's in Constantinople. 00:05:26.470 --> 00:05:30.220 And, you know, we can debate the dates of when that transition takes place. 00:05:30.780 --> 00:05:33.708 These big transitions usually take place over long periods of time. 00:05:33.791 --> 00:05:34.557 They're not, like, 00:05:34.640 --> 00:05:41.580 very sudden. So that's the big picture. Kings, republic, imperial monarchy. 00:05:42.220 --> 00:05:46.000 - The Roman Kingdom, the Roman Republic, the Roman Empire. 00:05:46.200 --> 00:05:49.080 - Yes. - And then the West and East Roman Empire. 00:05:49.280 --> 00:05:53.180 - Yes. - Uh, and then maybe what are the different terms that we could be 00:05:53.280 --> 00:05:58.300 using for the Byzantine Empire, including Byzantium? 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:03.120 Is it also fair to say the Late Roman Empire? 00:06:03.460 --> 00:06:07.177 - So Late Roman Empire we use for both east and west, starting 00:06:07.260 --> 00:06:10.937 around the reign of Diocletian maybe, even a bit earlier, so during the third 00:06:11.020 --> 00:06:16.797 century AD. And that goes down to maybe the early seventh century. So that 00:06:16.880 --> 00:06:19.040 period we call Late Roman Empire. And 00:06:20.050 --> 00:06:23.707 if you ask me to define its principal characteristics, it would probably 00:06:23.790 --> 00:06:26.967 be the tax system and the administration, the bureaucracy... 00:06:27.050 --> 00:06:30.487 ...of the later Roman Empire is that that comes from mostly 00:06:30.570 --> 00:06:32.627 Diocletian and Constantine's reforms. 00:06:32.710 --> 00:06:35.330 - And Diocletian was in the 3rd century. 00:06:35.450 --> 00:06:39.330 - Yes, 284 to 305 AD. Yes. A very important reformer. 00:06:39.910 --> 00:06:42.241 - And we'll talk about it, but let's just do this whirlwind, 00:06:42.324 --> 00:06:46.827 and hopefully there'll be automagical images somewhere overlaid, but- - Okay. 00:06:46.910 --> 00:06:53.910 - So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state, is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are 00:06:54.770 --> 00:07:01.253 overthrown, and the Roman Republic is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome, 00:07:01.337 --> 00:07:06.120 and this, I believe, among other events throughout its history, is a formative 00:07:06.230 --> 00:07:09.820 trauma that hardens Rome's security obsession. 00:07:10.970 --> 00:07:14.847 It turns out, throughout its history, people want to 00:07:14.930 --> 00:07:18.690 attack from different directions, and so you have to defend. So 00:07:19.150 --> 00:07:22.847 there's two wars, as we're actually saying off mic. There's two kinds 00:07:22.930 --> 00:07:29.930 of military operations. One is wars of conquest and expansion, and one is 00:07:31.170 --> 00:07:34.767 more defensive. And we'll talk about how the military 00:07:34.850 --> 00:07:39.930 changes throughout its history to allocate more effort to one versus the other. 00:07:40.790 --> 00:07:44.547 In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic 00:07:44.630 --> 00:07:48.367 Wars and the survival against Hannibal transform Rome into a Mediterranean 00:07:48.450 --> 00:07:55.450 superpower. Then like you mentioned, Caesar in 49 to 31 BC, 00:07:55.590 --> 00:07:59.447 Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon to assassination of Caesar to 00:07:59.530 --> 00:08:03.367 the Battle of Actium, and then the Civil War dismantles 00:08:03.450 --> 00:08:10.450 the Republic and concentrates power in a single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the 00:08:10.750 --> 00:08:17.150 first Roman emperor, let's say. Then 27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate, 00:08:17.870 --> 00:08:21.487 really low-key monarchy. And so officially, that ends the 00:08:21.570 --> 00:08:28.087 Republic, and then that begins, 27 BC to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a 00:08:28.170 --> 00:08:32.060 period of relative peace and stability. And a lot of the emperors we know of, 00:08:32.370 --> 00:08:35.987 the sexy, popular emperors all come from that period. 00:08:36.070 --> 00:08:40.007 Marcus Aurelius, who I'm a big fan of, from that period. Then that 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:43.207 takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned, 00:08:43.290 --> 00:08:48.030 Diocletian, who rebuilds the state. Emperors drop the first citizen mask, 00:08:49.150 --> 00:08:52.727 this perception of the way, and we'll talk about this, the persona that's 00:08:52.810 --> 00:08:59.810 presented by the state. 312 AD, Constantine defeats Maxentius at the 00:09:00.630 --> 00:09:04.587 Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of the western half of the empire, and then 00:09:04.670 --> 00:09:11.670 founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths 00:09:12.650 --> 00:09:19.650 sack Rome in 410 AD. The West falls at 476 AD as the last Western 00:09:20.490 --> 00:09:27.330 emperor is deposed. And then we sort of focus more on the East Roman Empire with 00:09:27.570 --> 00:09:31.010 527. In the 6th century, Justinian's reign. 00:09:31.810 --> 00:09:35.707 In the 7th century, Heraclius defeats Persia and then loses against 00:09:35.790 --> 00:09:39.447 the Arabs. There's the Arab conquest continuing in the 7th 00:09:39.530 --> 00:09:45.310 century. In the 8th the Arab siege of Constantinople fails. 00:09:46.430 --> 00:09:50.247 There's the Macedonian dynasty in that you 00:09:50.330 --> 00:09:54.260 have an excellent book about. And then the Crusades, 00:09:54.730 --> 00:10:01.730 and then eventually leading to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD. 00:10:02.710 --> 00:10:06.627 As a person who understands the full journey of it with 00:10:06.710 --> 00:10:10.650 a focus on East Roman history, is there obvious glaring 00:10:10.770 --> 00:10:14.830 holes or incorrect things in what I just said? 00:10:14.990 --> 00:10:19.790 - No, nothing incorrect. I would say if you wanted to produce a sort of 00:10:20.930 --> 00:10:27.930 very swift timeline of its history, it's obviously important to focus on the 00:10:28.850 --> 00:10:32.467 moments when lots of territory was 00:10:32.550 --> 00:10:36.047 lost to foreign invaders, and these are actually three main 00:10:36.130 --> 00:10:39.690 moments. There's the Arab conquests in the 00:10:39.990 --> 00:10:46.950 630s. This is a decade. In a decade, that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk 00:10:47.250 --> 00:10:52.180 conquest of Asia Minor, modern Turkey, in the 1070s, 00:10:53.210 --> 00:10:58.850 and that was very swift and partly reversed afterwards, but only partly. 00:10:59.700 --> 00:11:03.507 And then there's the Fourth Crusade, 1204, when the armies from 00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:05.902 mostly France sack, conquer Constantinople, 00:11:05.986 --> 00:11:07.447 and dismember the empire as 00:11:07.530 --> 00:11:11.387 much as they could. It didn't last that long. The Romans managed to 00:11:11.470 --> 00:11:16.108 regroup and recover but those are the three main crisis points. 00:11:16.191 --> 00:11:17.690 They are very swift, 00:11:18.550 --> 00:11:20.530 but they cause incredible damage. 00:11:22.110 --> 00:11:25.847 For all the rest of its history, it is a state and 00:11:25.930 --> 00:11:32.930 society that is generally sort of consolidating, you know, regrouping, 00:11:33.590 --> 00:11:38.856 and generally engaged in slow but steady economic growth, 00:11:38.940 --> 00:11:42.940 territorial expansion on a small scale, but steady. 00:11:43.550 --> 00:11:47.467 Uh, so we can talk about this. It's... I think it's an important thing 00:11:47.550 --> 00:11:51.850 to keep in mind about the big picture, that the defeats were swift 00:11:52.870 --> 00:11:59.870 and kind of, you know, terrible. But most of its history is one of slow growth. 00:12:00.510 --> 00:12:04.327 - There's some traumatic events that have a big impact, but a 00:12:04.410 --> 00:12:08.010 lot of the developments we'll talk about it might 00:12:08.510 --> 00:12:11.130 seem or feel like there's a particular moment 00:12:12.070 --> 00:12:15.847 when those developments or changes in the way the government or the military is 00:12:15.930 --> 00:12:18.710 structured arise, but really it's a gradual process. 00:12:18.850 --> 00:12:21.767 - Exactly. - And so that's the tension we have to be constantly dancing with. 00:12:21.850 --> 00:12:25.707 - Yeah, so as historians, this is a point of method, and it's very important. There 00:12:25.790 --> 00:12:29.540 are moments when, like, individuals with a great deal of power 00:12:30.130 --> 00:12:33.787 make choices that impact everybody else and have, you know, long-term 00:12:33.870 --> 00:12:35.090 consequences downstream. 00:12:36.170 --> 00:12:39.220 Constantine's conversion to Christianity, for example, right? 00:12:39.890 --> 00:12:43.490 Not something that anybody could have or did predict. Okay. 00:12:44.810 --> 00:12:48.327 Otherwise, most of the developments that we identify by 00:12:48.410 --> 00:12:51.721 specific dates, like you mentioned 395, the division of the eastern and 00:12:51.804 --> 00:12:52.307 the western 00:12:52.390 --> 00:12:57.667 empires, those are conventional dates that we use to actually capture what is in 00:12:57.750 --> 00:13:00.967 fact a much longer process. There was no split between the two 00:13:01.050 --> 00:13:04.887 halves. It was one among many 00:13:04.970 --> 00:13:08.667 allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one son and another son in the east and the 00:13:08.750 --> 00:13:13.787 west. The two halves were subsequently reunited, then they kind of 00:13:13.870 --> 00:13:17.640 divided again among different emperors. It's just a process, 00:13:17.810 --> 00:13:21.470 and so we sometimes use fixed dates for what is in fact a process. Or for 00:13:22.030 --> 00:13:25.907 76, the fall of the Western Empire, that's just the last date. It's 00:13:25.990 --> 00:13:28.660 actually a very long process that took decades. 00:13:29.170 --> 00:13:31.017 Right? So that's just something to keep in mind, 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:32.847 that sometimes we're talking about processes, 00:13:32.930 --> 00:13:35.834 sometimes we're talking about very discrete events with long-term 00:13:35.917 --> 00:13:36.867 consequences. Yeah. 00:13:37.550 --> 00:13:41.530 - Maybe an impossible question for a Roman state that lasted 00:13:41.670 --> 00:13:45.387 over 2,200 years, but is there a kind of through 00:13:45.470 --> 00:13:49.107 line, a thread, a soul that runs through the entire history of the Roman 00:13:49.190 --> 00:13:52.527 Empire? As you said, it's a slow 00:13:52.610 --> 00:13:56.587 transformation and evolution. But if we dare call the whole 00:13:56.670 --> 00:14:00.250 thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state- - Yes 00:14:00.350 --> 00:14:04.688 -... is there some aspect, some characteristics that run through the whole 00:14:04.772 --> 00:14:05.605 thing? 00:14:05.930 --> 00:14:10.430 - I think so, yes. By the way, you know the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus? 00:14:10.650 --> 00:14:13.615 Okay. So in case the audience doesn't know it, this is when there's a ship, 00:14:13.698 --> 00:14:18.510 and it's, you know, at sea, and over time, like, every component of that ship 00:14:18.610 --> 00:14:22.367 is replaced with some other component, so that by the end of the story, it 00:14:22.450 --> 00:14:26.167 has none of the original parts. But it's, like, in a 00:14:26.250 --> 00:14:30.030 certain sense still that ship because of the story, right? The... Okay. 00:14:30.570 --> 00:14:34.340 So Roman history is different from, let's say, Greek history 00:14:34.630 --> 00:14:38.059 or Christian history, right? Christian history is the story of a religion. 00:14:38.143 --> 00:14:38.527 It can be 00:14:38.610 --> 00:14:42.660 in any country, among any ethnic group. It's here, there, right? It's everywhere. 00:14:43.130 --> 00:14:45.380 But you still have histories of Christianity. 00:14:45.910 --> 00:14:48.887 It's the same with, like say, Greek culture- 00:14:48.970 --> 00:14:52.670 ... or your Greek literature, right? It's not a function of a particular 00:14:52.770 --> 00:14:55.970 state. Ancient Greeks were famously never united in a state. 00:14:56.630 --> 00:15:00.447 But it's people who culturally accept that 00:15:00.530 --> 00:15:04.347 tradition as their kind of elite prestige culture and engage 00:15:04.430 --> 00:15:08.110 with Homer and Plato and so forth. And they can be anywhere. 00:15:08.890 --> 00:15:12.593 Roman history is not like that. Roman history is very specifically the history 00:15:12.676 --> 00:15:16.887 of a state or a political community. And so this is the 00:15:16.970 --> 00:15:20.947 community of the Roman people, the Roman citizens. And it 00:15:21.030 --> 00:15:24.847 is in gradual evolution, but at no point is there a rupture in that 00:15:24.930 --> 00:15:28.747 history such that its members would ever think that something 00:15:28.830 --> 00:15:32.550 dramatic had changed, and that they're no longer part of that 00:15:32.650 --> 00:15:36.510 story. So in the same way as the ship I just mentioned, 00:15:36.670 --> 00:15:40.447 in other words, it's the narrative that you tell about it where the changes that 00:15:40.530 --> 00:15:45.520 take place to it make sense only when you see them within the context of that story. 00:15:45.770 --> 00:15:49.367 It's the same with Roman history. Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually 00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:53.350 everything changes. But it happens so gradually that it doesn't 00:15:53.450 --> 00:15:55.300 seem that way to anyone living in it. 00:15:56.110 --> 00:15:59.607 And so the narrative of the history of the Roman 00:15:59.690 --> 00:16:02.527 people is what holds all of this together. 00:16:02.610 --> 00:16:06.527 - How important is it that, so you mentioned Greek culture. So a lot 00:16:06.610 --> 00:16:09.760 of my friends who are Greek are extremely proud of being Greek. 00:16:10.730 --> 00:16:12.587 There's certain cultures that are proud. 00:16:12.670 --> 00:16:17.147 - Sure. - And it's not a momentary ephemeral thing. It feels 00:16:17.230 --> 00:16:19.927 like a thing that has lasted for many generations. 00:16:20.010 --> 00:16:23.827 - Oh, yeah. - And so that is an engine that propagates through 00:16:23.910 --> 00:16:27.807 time that carries that culture forward. And so does 00:16:27.890 --> 00:16:31.827 a similar thing apply for the Roman Empire in a different way? Maybe 00:16:31.910 --> 00:16:36.030 because you say it's a political kind of community, that means a set of ideals. 00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:40.607 And we'll talk about, because those ideals become even more 00:16:40.690 --> 00:16:44.587 concretized and explicit, I think, through the East Roman 00:16:44.670 --> 00:16:48.030 Empire, because one of the things you talk about is that the 00:16:48.130 --> 00:16:53.677 citizens of the empire are kind of all connected, that they are— 00:16:53.760 --> 00:16:56.393 ... engaged in this whole sort of machinery. Anyway, 00:16:56.476 --> 00:17:01.467 that's a complicated way of asking, is there some elements that Greek 00:17:01.550 --> 00:17:06.367 pride, dare I speak, is there some kind of Roman pride that propagates the thing? 00:17:06.450 --> 00:17:12.702 - Oh, there totally is. You can find authors and historical agents who 00:17:12.785 --> 00:17:16.920 definitely display this or talk about it. But we don't want to make that 00:17:17.610 --> 00:17:21.127 the center of the story or the basis for any analysis because... So what you're 00:17:21.210 --> 00:17:25.150 observing in your Greek friends is also the result of modern nation building, 00:17:25.350 --> 00:17:27.687 is it's the result of modern systems of education, 00:17:27.771 --> 00:17:29.287 and sort of national identities, 00:17:29.370 --> 00:17:32.687 and these are fostered and created through all kinds of media and 00:17:32.770 --> 00:17:36.347 institutions. It's just a different situation altogether. What you 00:17:36.430 --> 00:17:43.430 find in ancient republics or medieval states is more something like a consensus 00:17:45.010 --> 00:17:49.124 to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be ruled in this particular political 00:17:49.207 --> 00:17:50.040 community. 00:17:50.670 --> 00:17:54.377 Now, some members of it may definitely, and in fact did have this kind of pride. 00:17:54.460 --> 00:17:57.692 I'll give you an example. So there's an ambassador in the sixth century, 00:17:57.775 --> 00:17:58.607 and he's concluding 00:17:58.690 --> 00:18:02.387 a deal with the Persians. And you know, the Persians are skeptical 00:18:02.470 --> 00:18:05.369 cause, you know, Romans can't always be trusted. But this guy says to them, 00:18:05.452 --> 00:18:06.285 he says, 00:18:06.690 --> 00:18:10.570 and let me just tell you, you're making a deal here with the Romans. 00:18:10.790 --> 00:18:13.607 The Romans. The name should say it all." 00:18:13.690 --> 00:18:15.629 Like, you, okay, and you get a sense that this is, 00:18:15.712 --> 00:18:17.587 he's expressing a certain pride in, like, 00:18:17.670 --> 00:18:21.048 being a bearer of the Roman tradition and speaking for the emperors and the Roman 00:18:21.131 --> 00:18:24.208 Empire. I mean, that's, for him, this was something very, very momentous. 00:18:24.292 --> 00:18:25.247 You find these kinds of 00:18:25.330 --> 00:18:28.747 examples, so these people exist. But I wouldn't want to make that the basis 00:18:28.830 --> 00:18:34.467 for like an analysis of how the society works as a whole. 00:18:34.550 --> 00:18:38.447 For the most part, it was something like a consensus where, you 00:18:38.530 --> 00:18:43.550 know, subjects or citizens, however you want to call them, they agree to— 00:18:44.430 --> 00:18:48.367 let's say be taxed and be ruled by political authorities because of what 00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:52.030 they get in return, and there's this kind of understanding of a 00:18:52.150 --> 00:18:55.430 mutual set of responsibilities. And 00:18:55.770 --> 00:18:59.360 my concern, among other things, is to try to explain how this 00:18:59.450 --> 00:19:06.247 society held together for so long. Pride, yes, among some people, definitely. You 00:19:06.330 --> 00:19:09.807 find it in the sources. But sources are, texts are written by 00:19:09.890 --> 00:19:13.827 literate, you know, usually elites. So this is a small part 00:19:13.910 --> 00:19:18.750 of the population. We can't automatically extend their attitudes to everybody else. 00:19:18.850 --> 00:19:22.011 So in dealing with everyone else, we have to work with different kinds of materials, 00:19:22.095 --> 00:19:22.747 different kinds of 00:19:22.830 --> 00:19:26.430 assumptions. We can't just posit that they're just proud of being Roman. 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:30.487 They could have been. We don't know that, though. We can see other sorts of things 00:19:30.570 --> 00:19:34.427 about them. Like, for example, did they pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and 00:19:34.510 --> 00:19:37.860 leave the empire? So those are the kinds of things that I look for. 00:19:37.950 --> 00:19:42.700 - Pride is one component, but there could be other explanations and factors 00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:48.930 that explain what motivates a soldier to defend the capital, for example. 00:19:49.530 --> 00:19:53.047 Like, what motivates a 00:19:53.130 --> 00:19:56.967 particular person to pay the taxes. And then this is something that we'll 00:19:57.050 --> 00:20:00.390 definitely talk about. But just to linger at the big picture, 00:20:01.570 --> 00:20:04.630 if the Romans from the different periods met, 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:10.150 how different would they be from each other? Like, if I 00:20:10.250 --> 00:20:12.197 brought to you... This is one of those, you know, there's like- - Yes, yes, 00:20:12.280 --> 00:20:14.480 -... blind taste tests you can do with food. 00:20:14.670 --> 00:20:17.270 - Yes. Pepsi and Coke. - Pepsi and Coke. 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:21.750 - Yes. - If I brought you a Roman from the kingdom period, 00:20:22.110 --> 00:20:26.750 the republic period, the early imperial period- 00:20:27.250 --> 00:20:29.642 - I mean, I get asked this in a much more radical form, 00:20:29.725 --> 00:20:31.147 which is like if you take someone 00:20:31.230 --> 00:20:35.210 from, like, around 1453 who's a Roman and a subject of this Roman, 00:20:35.310 --> 00:20:39.207 and compare, and, and, you know, compare him or have him meet, you know, 00:20:39.290 --> 00:20:42.467 in your imagination with someone from the ancient republic. Like, how- - Yeah, 00:20:42.550 --> 00:20:46.447 -... could they find any kind of agreement on what it means to 00:20:46.530 --> 00:20:50.407 be Roman and recognize each other as belonging to that polity? This, this 00:20:50.490 --> 00:20:54.347 is a very difficult thing to... Like, now, I can point to a 00:20:54.430 --> 00:20:58.307 number of things that they would find eventually. And, you know, 00:20:58.390 --> 00:21:01.747 if you told them, "Yo, you're both Romans, you're both from this long history, 00:21:01.831 --> 00:21:04.386 now you have to find, you know, what you have in common," 00:21:04.470 --> 00:21:06.107 I think they could find things. But 00:21:06.190 --> 00:21:08.840 before we talk about those, if you wanna get into it, 00:21:09.630 --> 00:21:13.307 let's just say that the question can even be posed 00:21:13.390 --> 00:21:17.310 about Romans who live at the same time. I mean, if you take a 00:21:17.570 --> 00:21:21.210 senator from the age of Cicero and someone from the 00:21:21.650 --> 00:21:25.467 slums of Rome, who's maybe the son of a slave 00:21:25.550 --> 00:21:29.470 who was brought from the East by some general a generation ago, 00:21:30.250 --> 00:21:34.147 and put them in a room and say, "Now, you discuss. You're 00:21:34.230 --> 00:21:37.233 both Romans. What do you have in common?" They might have trouble in coming up 00:21:37.316 --> 00:21:41.727 with something. Right? So let's not minimize the sheer 00:21:41.810 --> 00:21:45.530 diversity of experiences and sort of life experiences 00:21:45.710 --> 00:21:48.130 of Romans who are living at the same time. 00:21:49.650 --> 00:21:52.910 The important thing is that a change is always happening, and 00:21:53.730 --> 00:21:57.267 from my standpoint this change is sort of 00:21:57.350 --> 00:22:00.747 cumulative, so it results in Greek-speaking Orthodox 00:22:00.830 --> 00:22:04.767 Christian Romans in Constantinople who at first 00:22:04.850 --> 00:22:08.767 sight might have little to do with Latin-speaking, you 00:22:08.850 --> 00:22:12.347 know, non-Christians or worshiping the ancient gods, Romans from a 00:22:12.430 --> 00:22:16.167 republic in Rome. And those are very, very different situations, and no 00:22:16.250 --> 00:22:20.107 doubt they would look and seem foreign to each other, right? The 00:22:20.190 --> 00:22:25.287 question is, why do we assume that someone like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the 00:22:25.370 --> 00:22:29.147 second century sort of a very cosmopolitan figure 00:22:29.230 --> 00:22:32.650 who travels around the empire with his Greek lover and, 00:22:33.390 --> 00:22:37.724 you know, writes poems and has a Greek beard and, you know, 00:22:37.808 --> 00:22:39.530 loves Greek culture and 00:22:40.830 --> 00:22:44.307 has much to do with someone from the Middle Republic who's, you 00:22:44.390 --> 00:22:48.327 know some warrior who's chasing down cattle from the Samnites. I 00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:52.347 mean, and yet the way we understand history is that, oh no, 00:22:52.431 --> 00:22:57.170 those belong together. Hadrian and this ancient Roman from the fourth century BC. 00:22:58.250 --> 00:23:02.107 But not Hadrian and someone, you know, an emperor a few 00:23:02.190 --> 00:23:06.337 centuries later who's just like him, bilingual in Greek and Latin, who's 00:23:06.420 --> 00:23:09.790 ... kinda cosmopolitan, who, you know, reads the same stuff, 00:23:10.770 --> 00:23:14.570 because we posit this rupture between Roman and Byzantine. 00:23:15.030 --> 00:23:18.860 - One of the ways we can try to analyze this is, for example, looking at 00:23:18.970 --> 00:23:25.380 a very specific role in society across time. So we can look at soldiers, 00:23:26.570 --> 00:23:29.767 how they solve violence, for example. That's one way. 00:23:29.850 --> 00:23:33.647 So you're making me realize that we can just take 1,000 00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.547 different professions and positions in society and really 00:23:36.630 --> 00:23:41.597 specifically look at what the experience of the world was like. 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:46.520 And so one of them is the view on violence, 00:23:47.610 --> 00:23:53.250 Across time. And, and then the other is the view on the role of the, 00:23:54.150 --> 00:23:57.270 the government-... across time. 00:23:57.690 --> 00:24:00.786 - That's an excellent way of putting it. So take soldiers, for example. 00:24:00.869 --> 00:24:05.110 They swear an oath. Right? Now, we don't have the oath for every given period. 00:24:05.990 --> 00:24:08.782 We have some approximations of it, some hints of what it contained, 00:24:08.866 --> 00:24:09.767 but we know that Roman 00:24:09.850 --> 00:24:13.570 soldiers swore an oath like, throughout all of the centuries of the 00:24:13.670 --> 00:24:17.527 empire. Sometimes they might add, like, a Christian formula 00:24:17.610 --> 00:24:24.610 to it. Sometime before that, not. But they swore basically to protect the 00:24:25.150 --> 00:24:28.797 republic or depending on what term they used or the 00:24:28.880 --> 00:24:32.487 empire or the emperor. And this is something that they would have 00:24:32.570 --> 00:24:36.347 recognized very quickly. Like, if, if they met each other over 00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:38.177 time and said, "Hey, what was your oath like?" 00:24:38.261 --> 00:24:41.427 And they recited it this would have made much sense to them, right? 00:24:41.510 --> 00:24:47.147 Or take, for example, a woman who runs a business, right? From any century of the 00:24:47.230 --> 00:24:52.340 empire. It, it would have been, especially the later you go, the, the more so, 00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:56.777 that this woman is enabled to do this by virtue 00:24:56.860 --> 00:25:00.397 of Roman law. Of certain, you know, Roman law of 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.540 property and inheritance and, and marriage, but 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:07.397 also regulations regarding who can do what and what 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:11.100 kinds of properties women can handle and under what circumstances. 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:16.460 This is something that Roman women had in common that many other cultures did not. 00:25:16.700 --> 00:25:20.657 So I'll give you an example. So for example, in the 10th, 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:26.067 11th century, there are Jewish women who live in the Eastern Roman Empire- 00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:31.757 ... who realize that they have more rights in Roman courts than in 00:25:31.840 --> 00:25:36.180 rabbinical ones, and they take their disputes to the Roman courts. 00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:40.620 Now, the thing is that for the Romans, these are property matters- 00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:44.077 ... not religious matters. But for the rabbis, these are religious matters. 00:25:44.161 --> 00:25:46.940 But the Roman courts trump the Jewish courts- 00:25:47.040 --> 00:25:50.242 ... in the empire, right? And so you end up with a situation where Jewish women 00:25:50.326 --> 00:25:51.680 have more rights- 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.050 ... than Jewish women do elsewhere, because where Roman law is not operative. 00:25:56.860 --> 00:26:00.797 And there you go. Right? Like, these things matter, right? And that's a 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.130 function of imperial law. 00:26:02.540 --> 00:26:06.500 - And this, this would be an interesting actually interplay between the law 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:12.580 and religious institutions-... Throughout the East-... uh, Roman Empire. 00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:16.745 So you argue that even though the personality of the various emperors 00:26:16.828 --> 00:26:20.937 varied, as we'll talk about, and as they're often venerated, 00:26:21.020 --> 00:26:22.880 celebrated, criticized, talked about, 00:26:24.120 --> 00:26:27.697 the late Roman Empire was projecting a persona to its 00:26:27.780 --> 00:26:30.740 citizens that was consistent throughout its history. 00:26:31.620 --> 00:26:35.277 Can you describe what you mean by this and describe the different detailed 00:26:35.360 --> 00:26:36.917 characteristics of this persona? 00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:43.793 - Yes. So this persona, it's what the governments or the emperor, the court, 00:26:43.877 --> 00:26:48.170 and the spokesman, the bureaucracy want their subjects to think, 00:26:49.240 --> 00:26:53.686 This whole thing is about. Like, how is power being used, why, 00:26:53.769 --> 00:26:55.230 and for whom, right? 00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.057 And they do so in laws that 00:27:00.140 --> 00:27:04.037 they promulgate throughout the empire. Sometimes they have these laws read in 00:27:04.120 --> 00:27:07.917 church, for example, or posted publicly. They're definitely eager to 00:27:08.000 --> 00:27:10.650 have them communicated to as many people as possible. 00:27:11.300 --> 00:27:15.137 But they're also a function of imperial rhetoric so the way 00:27:15.220 --> 00:27:18.857 you praise an emperor, the way you talk about an emperor. You find this 00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:22.537 language in petitions, so this is a hugely important 00:27:22.620 --> 00:27:26.337 glue for this society, is that anyone could 00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:29.997 basically petition the authorities for let's just say just about anything. 00:27:30.080 --> 00:27:33.517 That's not technically true, but there's a lot of petitioning going 00:27:33.600 --> 00:27:37.457 on. So, you know, if you think something's wrong or you've been 00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:41.317 treated unjustly, you can petition local officials, even 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.157 imperial officials. You can petition the emperor, you can... Right? And the 00:27:45.240 --> 00:27:48.508 expectation is that that petition will be read, addressed, and answered. 00:27:48.591 --> 00:27:52.341 It might not be answered in the way that you want, but it will be answered. 00:27:52.980 --> 00:27:56.897 And those responses contain this language also, right? So these are 00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:00.657 the different media through which the emperors are broadcasting this 00:28:00.740 --> 00:28:04.057 persona, and that persona is what? Basically, that the 00:28:04.140 --> 00:28:07.960 authorities are responsive to the needs of their subjects, 00:28:08.800 --> 00:28:12.697 that they are often accountable. In other words, they understand 00:28:12.780 --> 00:28:15.130 that they are exercising public power, 00:28:16.020 --> 00:28:19.797 and that their mandate is to exercise it solely for the 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:23.237 benefit of their subjects. They keep saying this. Um, 00:28:23.320 --> 00:28:26.577 so renouncing any kind of private interest. In other 00:28:26.660 --> 00:28:30.357 words, "We're not doing this for our benefit," say the 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:32.890 authorities. "We're doing this for your benefit." 00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:36.477 Also that they're proactive. So the emperors are constantly 00:28:36.560 --> 00:28:39.670 saying that, "We're planning ahead. 00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:44.337 We're trying to foresee what problems you might have, and we are solving 00:28:44.420 --> 00:28:46.570 them at, before you experience them." 00:28:47.000 --> 00:28:50.900 And that they are also working very hard. So hardworking. In fact, 00:28:51.020 --> 00:28:54.840 the one of the cliches that they keep using is sleepless. The emperors 00:28:54.940 --> 00:28:58.817 keep saying that, "I'm losing sleep over this. I'm not sleeping at night because 00:28:58.900 --> 00:29:02.240 I'm just worrying so much about your problems and how to solve them." 00:29:02.324 --> 00:29:06.777 Justinian, for example, was publicly known as the sleepless emperor, and not 00:29:06.860 --> 00:29:10.560 because he was a demon whose head floated around in the palace on its own, 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:11.810 which some people 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:13.937 - That's the thing? - It was a thing, yes. 00:29:14.020 --> 00:29:15.177 - Okay. - That's a whole thing. 00:29:15.260 --> 00:29:17.087 - But sleepless in terms of worked so hard- - Yes. 00:29:17.170 --> 00:29:19.300 -... there's no time to sleep. 00:29:19.420 --> 00:29:23.937 - He was a workaholic. That is conceded by even his enemies. 00:29:24.020 --> 00:29:27.897 All night he was up just hauling officials in at any old hour to 00:29:27.980 --> 00:29:31.897 talk about whatever, you know, wars and architecture and laws and the 00:29:31.980 --> 00:29:36.037 religion and theology and whatever. So the emperors are projecting this image, right? 00:29:36.120 --> 00:29:38.000 So that's what I call the persona. 00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:44.180 Tireless effort to work on behalf of subjects, to do so responsibly, 00:29:45.100 --> 00:29:48.720 to be responsive and accountable. In other words, 00:29:49.320 --> 00:29:53.060 if some of my officials breaks the law or oppresses 00:29:53.220 --> 00:29:56.717 you, I'm giving you instruments, like legal 00:29:56.800 --> 00:29:59.230 instruments, by which to hold them to account. 00:29:59.800 --> 00:30:02.520 So that's the persona. It's very consistent, 00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:07.277 And I think it's part of the mechanism of tying the society 00:30:07.360 --> 00:30:11.260 together. In other words, if subjects think that their emperors are like this, 00:30:11.780 --> 00:30:17.010 right, they're more likely to agree to the consensus of essentially paying taxes. 00:30:17.580 --> 00:30:20.580 - And you draw this distinction between rhetoric and action, 00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:24.957 what the authorities say and what they actually do. So when you say 00:30:25.040 --> 00:30:30.727 persona in the modern times, some of that could be reframed as propaganda- - Yeah. 00:30:30.810 --> 00:30:36.180 -... for example. And propaganda implies that the rhetoric, 00:30:36.280 --> 00:30:39.900 that there's a big gap between the rhetoric and the 00:30:40.020 --> 00:30:43.817 action. And one of the things you said you took away from reading Machiavelli is that 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:47.740 we should judge people not by what they say, but by what they do. 00:30:48.460 --> 00:30:52.297 So how much of the Roman Empire's government of what they espoused 00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:56.360 was merely rhetoric, and how much was true in how they acted? 00:30:56.560 --> 00:31:00.380 - Yes. This is a key lesson I took from reading Machiavelli, and 00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:04.480 I found this a very insightful way of thinking about politics, and 00:31:05.040 --> 00:31:09.027 I would recommend that anybody kind of practice this way of looking at the world, 00:31:09.110 --> 00:31:12.907 right? People and states and, you know, powerful people can say 00:31:12.990 --> 00:31:15.249 anything they want to. At the end of the day, 00:31:15.332 --> 00:31:17.310 what matters is what they actually do. 00:31:18.250 --> 00:31:21.307 And this doesn't mean that what they say is 00:31:21.390 --> 00:31:26.990 irrelevant, even if it's discordant with what they do. But nevertheless, 00:31:27.810 --> 00:31:31.647 In the case of the East Roman state, 00:31:31.730 --> 00:31:35.387 so my research suggests that the emperors and the authorities 00:31:35.470 --> 00:31:39.110 were generally sincere in what they said. In other words, 00:31:39.710 --> 00:31:45.390 I have found that they generally did what they said they were going to do overall. 00:31:46.210 --> 00:31:50.147 Not perfectly, obviously. And of course, these are human beings we're talking 00:31:50.230 --> 00:31:54.107 about. The, right, the human societies, there was a lot of, you know, 00:31:54.190 --> 00:31:56.257 corruption, and you name it. Abuse- 00:31:56.340 --> 00:32:00.100 ... of course. Of course there is. But overall, I think that there was 00:32:00.770 --> 00:32:04.747 a sufficient level of understanding that the emperors 00:32:04.830 --> 00:32:08.141 are in fact doing this, and they were actually incentivized to do this. 00:32:08.224 --> 00:32:08.747 We can talk 00:32:08.830 --> 00:32:14.030 about how. Because they were also in a pretty vulnerable situation too, so they 00:32:14.130 --> 00:32:18.390 needed their subjects to be relatively content on this front. 00:32:18.930 --> 00:32:22.550 - Isn't this surprising to you? So, you know, from the 00:32:22.770 --> 00:32:27.870 outsider point of view, Roman emperors, even in the East Roman Empire, 00:32:29.190 --> 00:32:32.927 technically have a lot of power. 00:32:33.010 --> 00:32:36.800 You can even say in some cases absolute power, and yet 00:32:37.610 --> 00:32:44.040 they seem to be awfully worried... to make everybody in the empire happy. 00:32:44.650 --> 00:32:48.317 What explains that? Like what, what explains the small 00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:51.820 gap between rhetoric and action in the East Roman Empire? 00:32:52.180 --> 00:32:56.950 - A number of things, but ultimately it is that there is no right to the throne. 00:32:57.950 --> 00:33:02.630 And this is a function of the Roman matrix of politics here. In other words, 00:33:03.850 --> 00:33:05.990 So here's a bit of a paradox. 00:33:06.990 --> 00:33:10.707 What we call the Roman Republic was the most imperialistic 00:33:10.790 --> 00:33:14.890 phase of Roman history. Like this is when the Romans did most of their conquering. 00:33:15.130 --> 00:33:18.927 What we call the empire is much less imperialistic in this way. 00:33:19.010 --> 00:33:22.727 That's much more defensive in its approach, right? And yet our 00:33:22.810 --> 00:33:29.810 terms are a little mismatched in that way. The empire is more a function of the, 00:33:30.630 --> 00:33:36.227 That it has an emperor rather than it is engaged in imperialism. 00:33:36.310 --> 00:33:40.147 And that emperor emerged out of the republic. 00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:43.730 But emerged out of the republic in a very strange way. In other words, 00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:47.930 not as a dynasty that created the 00:33:48.050 --> 00:33:51.950 state. So for example, if you think of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires, 00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:57.657 they... The whole thing existed because this dynasty engaged in conquest and- 00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:01.281 ... was successful in creating the state, and so the dynasty was like at the heart 00:34:01.365 --> 00:34:05.427 of the state. But that's not at all the case in the Roman 00:34:05.510 --> 00:34:09.167 Empire. The emperor is a figure who emerged within a 00:34:09.250 --> 00:34:12.927 republic, and in order to create peace after the 00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:16.907 civil wars, those emperors had to, for a long time, kind of 00:34:16.990 --> 00:34:23.347 pretend that they were not what they really were. Um, basically, you know, 00:34:23.430 --> 00:34:27.227 continuing to flatter the idea of a republic that is, you know, that has a 00:34:27.310 --> 00:34:31.107 first citizen maybe. "Oh, no, no, I'm not a king. I'm just, I 00:34:31.190 --> 00:34:33.257 have this office and that office and that office." 00:34:33.340 --> 00:34:37.247 "Whatever the Senate has given me." Now, we understand that's a facade, but the 00:34:37.330 --> 00:34:40.207 fact that they had to create this facade at all is very important. 00:34:40.290 --> 00:34:41.687 - Can we actually just linger on that? 00:34:41.770 --> 00:34:45.187 I mean, how much of this... 'Cause you said they had to create this facade. 00:34:45.270 --> 00:34:46.103 - Yeah. 00:34:46.890 --> 00:34:52.250 - Did Augustus, who started the whole thing, the first emperor of Rome, 00:34:53.070 --> 00:34:58.970 did he have to act that way? 'Cause he kept acting like he's not an absolute- 00:34:59.330 --> 00:34:59.407 - Yes 00:34:59.490 --> 00:35:06.490 -... monarch, and he could have gone hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full 00:35:07.990 --> 00:35:11.127 hardcore rule, dictatorship. - Well, then how does he govern then? 00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:13.447 - Uh, so he wants to be an effective governor. 00:35:13.530 --> 00:35:16.007 - Oh, yeah. - And he also wants to not be overthrown. 00:35:16.090 --> 00:35:19.987 - Exactly. Because, you know, just because you ended one civil war 00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:22.047 doesn't mean that there's not going to be another. 00:35:22.130 --> 00:35:25.551 You have to create a consensus such that people don't want to have another civil 00:35:25.635 --> 00:35:30.110 war. If he did what you said, which he in theory could have done, 00:35:30.470 --> 00:35:34.107 but that would've just led to more wars, right? So the 00:35:34.190 --> 00:35:37.627 problem is that the emperors, even those who come to power through violence, they 00:35:37.710 --> 00:35:41.587 can't prevent other people from trying to come to power through violence 00:35:41.670 --> 00:35:45.087 because like I said, no one has a right to the throne. 00:35:45.170 --> 00:35:47.670 - We should also say one more thing where, 00:35:49.450 --> 00:35:55.870 dare I carefully say this, but it seems like riots and civil wars 00:35:56.790 --> 00:35:58.890 is a feature, not a bug of the system. 00:35:59.070 --> 00:36:02.560 - Yes. - This is a different thing that we have to the modern day, 00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:07.387 is because the threat of a civil war, a violent civil war where you 00:36:07.470 --> 00:36:11.477 overthrow the government and there's just a lot of- 00:36:11.560 --> 00:36:15.310 ... death and struggle for power is always a threat. 00:36:15.410 --> 00:36:19.307 That's another incentive that, I guess the stick, not the carrot, but 00:36:19.390 --> 00:36:21.910 the stick for the emperor to behave. 00:36:22.150 --> 00:36:25.967 - Yes. It's the main one. In other words, just take the, 00:36:26.050 --> 00:36:31.390 the thousand years that I study. There's something like 120 civil wars. 00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:34.850 Now, these are usually very swift. They're over quickly, 00:36:35.610 --> 00:36:40.270 and they're never about ideology. So they're not like modern civil wars. 00:36:40.430 --> 00:36:44.480 Right? It's about slavery or the rights of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They're 00:36:44.610 --> 00:36:47.247 solely about who has the power. 00:36:47.330 --> 00:36:50.787 All sides have the same ideology. They talk about, you know, the 00:36:50.870 --> 00:36:54.647 responsibility of government in the same way, right? They're just competing over 00:36:54.730 --> 00:36:56.710 who's the best man to do the job. 00:36:57.050 --> 00:37:00.867 Right? And so once you have that situation... And it might not be a 00:37:00.950 --> 00:37:04.407 civil war, it could be a palace coup, it could be a kind 00:37:04.490 --> 00:37:06.537 of fighting in the capital- 00:37:06.620 --> 00:37:10.620 ... something like that. Once everyone's taken their side and you have a winner, 00:37:10.950 --> 00:37:15.003 that's the emperor, And you often overthrow the previous regime. 00:37:15.087 --> 00:37:20.227 I'll give you some statistics. Something like 46% of the emperors of 00:37:20.310 --> 00:37:25.620 Constantinople are overthrown through violence. 46%. And that's almost half. 00:37:25.870 --> 00:37:29.767 Right? So that's a huge, that's a huge number, which means that every emperor 00:37:29.850 --> 00:37:32.100 is vulnerable and insecure, and they know it, 00:37:32.510 --> 00:37:36.360 right? So what they have to do is make sure that that doesn't happen to them, 00:37:36.630 --> 00:37:40.527 and the way to do that is not by arresting 00:37:40.610 --> 00:37:44.550 and executing everybody you think might be a threat or just generally behaving 00:37:44.650 --> 00:37:48.467 like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero. That will just get you killed. 00:37:48.550 --> 00:37:52.307 Like, they know this. So the best way to avoid that 00:37:52.390 --> 00:37:56.107 fate is to actually do the things that will make 00:37:56.190 --> 00:38:00.007 people happy so that they don't support a rebel if a rebel 00:38:00.090 --> 00:38:02.740 decides to appear. And sometimes rebels would appear. 00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:06.228 There's a kind of convention in Constantinople, like if you... 00:38:06.311 --> 00:38:07.107 Sometimes you 00:38:07.190 --> 00:38:10.242 you think, "Hmm, that emperor's pretty unpopular and I think I can overthrow 00:38:10.325 --> 00:38:15.290 him." What you would do is you would march down the center boulevard- 00:38:15.870 --> 00:38:19.727 ... And, you know, you'd have your people just call the 00:38:19.810 --> 00:38:23.627 populace of Constantinople out to rally, to you know, maybe go to 00:38:23.710 --> 00:38:27.447 Hagia Sophia, the, the church, and just create a big crowd and call for the 00:38:27.530 --> 00:38:30.987 deposition of the emperor and, you know, maybe that would hap- And sometimes it 00:38:31.071 --> 00:38:35.647 did, and sometimes it didn't, and the rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of 00:38:35.730 --> 00:38:39.207 proceed down the Mese, the boulevard, and people would just 00:38:39.290 --> 00:38:42.970 gradually just disappear, and then he'd be left alone- 00:38:43.070 --> 00:38:49.217 ... and go up to Hagia Sophia as seeking asylum. Right? So that's a bid. 00:38:49.300 --> 00:38:53.147 That's someone making a bid for the throne, and it just goes disastrously bad. 00:38:53.230 --> 00:38:55.217 Other times, the people come out 'cause they hate the emperor, 00:38:55.300 --> 00:39:01.167 and they drag the emperor out and cut his nose off or whatever. So emperors are 00:39:01.250 --> 00:39:05.007 constantly trying to prevent that from happening, and the best way to do 00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:06.510 that is through goodwill. 00:39:07.420 --> 00:39:11.367 - I'm trying to load in that kind of world 'cause it's a different 00:39:11.450 --> 00:39:14.047 world than we live in today. - Yes. 00:39:14.130 --> 00:39:20.610 - There's a constant inner workings of policy development inside government. 00:39:20.850 --> 00:39:21.667 - Yes. 00:39:21.750 --> 00:39:26.530 - But the check on power is, like, literal, like, we will murder you. 00:39:27.310 --> 00:39:30.927 - Yes, it depends on the period. Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you, 00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:33.610 sometimes cut your nose off, but there were periods- 00:39:33.950 --> 00:39:35.147 - Thank you for the nuance 00:39:35.230 --> 00:39:37.871 -... No, there were periods that were more civilized. We'll just basically, 00:39:37.954 --> 00:39:39.654 you'll get retired to a monastery. 00:39:39.770 --> 00:39:43.690 - Right. - Okay. You're right. So here's what elections do. 00:39:43.790 --> 00:39:47.770 Elections give a government a mandate for, I don't know, four or five years, 00:39:48.610 --> 00:39:52.410 and during that period, you may be unpopular, but you're legitimate, 00:39:53.050 --> 00:39:54.970 right, because of the institutions. 00:39:55.950 --> 00:39:59.630 Whereas in Constantinople, we don't have those kinds of institutions. 00:40:00.590 --> 00:40:04.250 We have instead an ongoing referendum. 00:40:04.830 --> 00:40:07.130 We just call it a perpetual referendum, right? 00:40:07.430 --> 00:40:11.107 And in fact, the emperors are, they're conducting opinion polls in a sense 00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:14.927 because they appear in public. When they appear in public, everyone is 00:40:15.010 --> 00:40:19.010 expected to cheer and chant acclamations, right, like, 00:40:19.870 --> 00:40:23.727 Slogans. Right? So you have 100,000 people in the Hippodrome 00:40:23.810 --> 00:40:27.587 all chanting, you know, "Worthy" or "Many years for you, Augustus" or something 00:40:27.670 --> 00:40:29.407 like this. And if that happens, it's great. 00:40:29.491 --> 00:40:31.667 But if you appear in the Hippodrome and people are, 00:40:31.750 --> 00:40:36.570 like, sullen or if the chanting is a bit tepid or if they're booing, 00:40:37.410 --> 00:40:38.977 then you know something's wrong, right? 00:40:39.060 --> 00:40:42.667 So you gotta find out what's wrong. It could be something like the grain 00:40:42.750 --> 00:40:45.970 supply is, you know, not working or 00:40:46.270 --> 00:40:49.370 whatever. And so emperors are desperate to fix those problems. 00:40:49.990 --> 00:40:53.267 - And the Hippodrome is this big gathering place in 00:40:53.350 --> 00:40:57.007 Constantinople, which I guess a lot of people gathered 00:40:57.090 --> 00:41:01.567 at and did this kind of cheering or not cheering based on policy and- 00:41:01.650 --> 00:41:06.220 ... and whether the emperor is popular or not. This was democracy. 00:41:07.110 --> 00:41:09.227 Uh, I apologize to use that term, but- 00:41:09.310 --> 00:41:13.067 ... in our conception of what that means, because what do we mean by 00:41:13.150 --> 00:41:16.567 democracy in the modern day is that the people somehow have a 00:41:16.650 --> 00:41:20.270 connection to who leads and how they lead, 00:41:20.830 --> 00:41:25.681 and this is, the Hippodrome was that connection between the people and 00:41:25.764 --> 00:41:29.841 the leaders. - Yes. Now, we can talk about modern democracy if you, if you want. 00:41:29.924 --> 00:41:32.597 That's a, that's a, I have, I have my own views about- 00:41:32.680 --> 00:41:36.607 ... modern democracy, and, and, you know, how it works and how 00:41:36.690 --> 00:41:39.143 it doesn't and, anyway, whether it is democracy, in fact, 00:41:39.226 --> 00:41:41.357 'cause there are other models of democracy, like- 00:41:41.440 --> 00:41:45.307 ... ancient Athenian democracy, which is a whole other thing. But you're right. 00:41:45.390 --> 00:41:49.147 So it's not just in the Hippodrome. It's wherever people assemble in large 00:41:49.230 --> 00:41:52.820 numbers. So this could be military mustering grounds, 00:41:53.470 --> 00:41:57.320 right? So the army. The army is also the Roman people in a way, and the- 00:41:57.570 --> 00:42:01.227 in some cases, the most decisive part of it, right? So if an 00:42:01.310 --> 00:42:04.710 army gathers together and they decide they want a different emperor, 00:42:04.890 --> 00:42:08.707 that's serious, and that can happen out in the provinces too. That doesn't 00:42:08.790 --> 00:42:12.587 necessarily have to happen in Constantinople. There's also Hagia 00:42:12.670 --> 00:42:16.387 Sophia, so the people gather in the church, or they gather in 00:42:16.470 --> 00:42:18.810 public spaces like the Forum of Constantine. 00:42:19.270 --> 00:42:23.450 So this can happen anywhere where a large number of people can gather, 00:42:24.390 --> 00:42:28.150 and it's, I don't know if you wanna call it a democracy as such 00:42:28.610 --> 00:42:32.090 but it is definitely a form of popular, mm, let's say 00:42:32.190 --> 00:42:36.010 consultation and a testing of consensus. 00:42:36.610 --> 00:42:41.820 I'll give you another example. So in the 1190s, the emperor, and it's Alexius III, 00:42:42.890 --> 00:42:45.330 he's being threatened by the German emperor. German emperor's basically, 00:42:45.413 --> 00:42:49.563 "You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or I'll invade." Just straight up extortion. 00:42:49.950 --> 00:42:54.027 - Yeah. - Um, and Alexius decides, "Okay, I'm gonna gather this money. I'm gonna 00:42:54.110 --> 00:42:55.110 impose these taxes." 00:42:55.930 --> 00:42:58.567 And he gathers the people in the Hippodrome, and he says, "You know, 00:42:58.650 --> 00:42:59.687 we're gonna have the German 00:42:59.770 --> 00:43:04.070 tax." He called it the German tax. And there's such an uproar 00:43:04.990 --> 00:43:08.907 in the Hippodrome against this that he was like, "Uh, that 00:43:08.990 --> 00:43:11.370 wasn't my idea. I don't know where that came from. No, never mind. 00:43:11.453 --> 00:43:12.567 We're not gonna have the German 00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:16.450 tax." Fortunately, the German emperor died and, and nothing ever happened, 00:43:17.050 --> 00:43:18.928 but it gives you a sense of how emperors, like, 00:43:19.011 --> 00:43:20.867 literally can backtrack when they see that the 00:43:20.950 --> 00:43:24.850 people are against something in a matter of policy, right-... like tax policy. 00:43:24.970 --> 00:43:27.550 So yeah, there was this give and take. 00:43:28.270 --> 00:43:32.187 So institutionally, the emperor might look absolute, as 00:43:32.270 --> 00:43:36.115 you called him earlier. In practice, no. No. 00:43:36.198 --> 00:43:39.680 The ones that did that didn't end well. 00:43:40.540 --> 00:43:44.347 - And we should say, going to Perplexity here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople 00:43:44.430 --> 00:43:48.610 was the main stadium and social center of the Byzantine capital, 00:43:49.570 --> 00:43:53.470 used primarily for chariot racing and imperial ceremony, 00:43:53.570 --> 00:43:57.210 and today survives in Istanbul's Sultanahmet district. 00:43:57.510 --> 00:44:01.467 And the reason I looked this up, I wanted to see how many people. Shaped as 00:44:01.550 --> 00:44:05.390 a long U-shaped race course with a central barrier 00:44:05.910 --> 00:44:09.470 and tiered seating, it may have held from roughly thirty 00:44:09.590 --> 00:44:13.080 thousand up to a hundred thousand spectators, 00:44:13.450 --> 00:44:18.307 though exact capacity is debated because archaeological remains are limited. 00:44:18.390 --> 00:44:22.710 That's a lot of people. - Thirty thousand is definitely a pretty un- underestimate. 00:44:22.930 --> 00:44:24.836 The Hippodrome is still there. I mean, you can see it from, 00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:27.870 it's like satellite photos. The shape of it is still there. 00:44:28.010 --> 00:44:31.990 And actually some parts of the built, the, the Sphendone, the, the sling 00:44:32.090 --> 00:44:35.947 around the southern side is still there. You can walk around it. And it's right 00:44:36.030 --> 00:44:40.450 next to the palace. In other words, emperors didn't have to go far. Now, 00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:45.167 sometimes there are events for replacing an emperor. So say the emperor dies in 00:44:45.250 --> 00:44:50.010 his sleep, and there's no heir. This happens in 491, for example. 00:44:51.110 --> 00:44:54.557 And so the people gather in the Hippodrome in order to have a 00:44:54.640 --> 00:44:57.038 discussion with the court about whom to appoint. Now, 00:44:57.122 --> 00:44:58.567 in those kinds of contexts, it's 00:44:58.650 --> 00:45:02.530 entirely possible that there are people also in the, the arena, 00:45:03.590 --> 00:45:07.487 like not just in the stands. I think some military units might 00:45:07.570 --> 00:45:11.447 have just been arrayed there rather than in the stands. So you can get more people 00:45:11.530 --> 00:45:13.658 than what we project might fit in the stands, 00:45:13.741 --> 00:45:16.191 because they're not having the races on that day. 00:45:16.430 --> 00:45:19.436 - We should say, so like, I think the thing that was emphasized in the first 00:45:19.519 --> 00:45:20.369 paragraph is the, 00:45:20.830 --> 00:45:24.610 the athletic events and the entertainment events, right? Like the 00:45:24.830 --> 00:45:28.210 imperial ceremony. But there is a sort of a political gathering 00:45:28.850 --> 00:45:32.747 was also popular. The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It 00:45:32.830 --> 00:45:36.820 was where emperors appeared before the people, where acclamations, 00:45:36.950 --> 00:45:40.527 public punishments, and political demonstrations took place, and where the 00:45:40.610 --> 00:45:44.240 rival circus factions, blues, greens, reds, whites, 00:45:44.390 --> 00:45:48.360 became powerful social and sometimes paramilitary forces. 00:45:48.810 --> 00:45:51.410 And this goes on and on and on. So this was a place- 00:45:51.970 --> 00:45:55.327 - Oh, it's a very important place. Yeah, -... for people to speak to the leader. 00:45:55.410 --> 00:45:58.250 - Yeah. Vent sometimes. Even insult them. 00:45:58.870 --> 00:46:02.767 - Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean, it's human civilization. It's converged 00:46:02.850 --> 00:46:06.727 towards a mechanism that has clearly worked, because 00:46:06.810 --> 00:46:10.747 for the empire in the East, stood 00:46:10.830 --> 00:46:15.210 for a thousand years. So it's, it's fascinating. We as humans, 00:46:16.130 --> 00:46:21.030 throughout our history, we try to figure out, okay, how do we, 00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:24.930 figure out how to govern 00:46:25.850 --> 00:46:29.747 large collections of humans in a way that they're represented, in the 00:46:29.830 --> 00:46:33.270 way that they don't riot, they don't rebel. 00:46:33.430 --> 00:46:37.000 Um, in the way that we flourish together as a 00:46:37.150 --> 00:46:39.207 people, all this, all this kind of stuff. 00:46:39.290 --> 00:46:42.660 So this is a real... The East Roman Empire is a real 00:46:42.810 --> 00:46:46.527 study of something that seemed to have worked. There are 00:46:46.610 --> 00:46:50.087 lessons there even for the modern times, I think. And modern times, 00:46:50.170 --> 00:46:54.070 again, is very early human civilization. 00:46:54.770 --> 00:46:58.527 - From a certain standpoint, yes, we are still early in- - Trying to figure it out 00:46:58.610 --> 00:46:59.587 -... trying to figure it out. 00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:03.057 Yes. Now, mind you, I'm not advocating for this type of social 00:47:03.140 --> 00:47:06.390 organization and government. What I'm trying to do as a historian 00:47:07.070 --> 00:47:10.930 is understand how and why it survived 00:47:11.090 --> 00:47:14.830 and also to find the ways that it worked, because it 00:47:15.010 --> 00:47:18.887 did work. We know that much. We have to start from that. It survived. It 00:47:18.970 --> 00:47:20.870 was resilient. There was a lot of, 00:47:21.670 --> 00:47:25.407 you know, give and take in the exercise of power, and I want to understand the 00:47:25.490 --> 00:47:26.450 mechanisms of that. 00:47:27.630 --> 00:47:31.540 - So if we can, before we go to Emperor Constantine the 00:47:31.690 --> 00:47:35.630 First and the founding of Constantinople, can we look at some 00:47:36.550 --> 00:47:40.267 maybe seminal events that led up to some of the 00:47:40.350 --> 00:47:43.967 topics we'll be talking about? So one of them maybe tell me if this is 00:47:44.050 --> 00:47:51.050 not as interesting as I think it is, but the Edict of Caracalla, in 212 AD. So this 00:47:52.010 --> 00:47:53.490 is where, 00:47:54.470 --> 00:47:58.387 You described that starting with Augustus in the early imperial period, government 00:47:58.470 --> 00:48:01.390 saw itself as a protector of the Roman citizens, 00:48:02.470 --> 00:48:06.127 which is a minority of the people living in the, in the Roman 00:48:06.210 --> 00:48:10.050 Empire. It doesn't consider the, the provincials. 00:48:11.210 --> 00:48:14.487 And then you described that the Edict of Caracalla, that 00:48:14.570 --> 00:48:19.450 extended full Roman citizenships to basically all, 00:48:20.350 --> 00:48:23.870 free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So 00:48:24.230 --> 00:48:27.390 what is it? Why was it done? Why is it important? 00:48:28.330 --> 00:48:30.390 And how did it change the Roman Empire? 00:48:30.990 --> 00:48:34.890 - Right. I agree with you that this is, in fact, a very important... It's 00:48:34.990 --> 00:48:38.890 a, it's a real turning point in a sense, but it also is part of a process. 00:48:40.690 --> 00:48:47.690 So for various reasons, the Roman polity tended to bestow its metropolitan 00:48:49.070 --> 00:48:54.060 citizenship, that is, Roman citizenship, on its allies, 00:48:54.890 --> 00:48:58.320 and eventually in time, on many people that it had conquered. 00:48:59.130 --> 00:49:02.830 And it had various mechanisms for doing so. It could bestow block grants. 00:49:03.450 --> 00:49:07.167 Sometimes it allowed its generals to bestow citizenship on people 00:49:07.250 --> 00:49:11.007 they thought would, you know, would be necessary 00:49:11.090 --> 00:49:14.447 players for controlling local societies. Sometimes they even 00:49:14.530 --> 00:49:18.147 allowed foreign cities to, like non-Roman cities, to 00:49:18.230 --> 00:49:21.920 decide who would get Roman citizenship by 00:49:22.010 --> 00:49:24.433 basically electing them to certain kinds of offices. Like they, 00:49:24.516 --> 00:49:26.016 they outsourced a lot of this. 00:49:26.840 --> 00:49:30.537 And so you have over time the steady growth of a 00:49:30.620 --> 00:49:34.497 Roman community of citizens who are not all in Rome, and 00:49:34.580 --> 00:49:37.121 who are not all of Roman origin, whatever that means, but they, 00:49:37.204 --> 00:49:39.954 they were not descended from people who were from Rome. 00:49:40.200 --> 00:49:43.900 And this proceeds, you know, it expands, it expands, it expands. 00:49:44.260 --> 00:49:47.400 By Caracalla's time, so early third century AD, 00:49:48.300 --> 00:49:51.980 we can estimate that maybe at, at most, a 00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:55.977 third of the free citizens of the empire are 00:49:56.060 --> 00:49:59.880 Roman citizens. Everyone else has local citizenship, like you're 00:50:00.180 --> 00:50:05.100 Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever. And with... You're subject to those laws. 00:50:05.900 --> 00:50:09.697 This emperor, Caracalla, now that's his nickname. His reigning name is Marcus 00:50:09.780 --> 00:50:10.780 Aurelius Antoninus. 00:50:12.260 --> 00:50:15.537 So just like Marcus Aurelius, it's sa- same name two generations later. 00:50:15.620 --> 00:50:19.477 - Some badass names for emperors, by the way. I don't know if it's the chicken or 00:50:19.560 --> 00:50:22.317 the egg, but just... some epic names. 00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:25.557 - They've been remembered that way, and so we read that back into the name— 00:50:25.640 --> 00:50:26.877 - Yes, that's true. -... and absolutely, yes. 00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.187 - But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah. 00:50:28.270 --> 00:50:31.637 - Yeah, so he issues this edict in 212 called the 00:50:31.720 --> 00:50:35.557 Constitutio Antoniniana, named after him. Some people at the 00:50:35.640 --> 00:50:37.290 time called it the Divine Decree, 00:50:37.980 --> 00:50:41.757 which basically extended citizenship to everybody. Now, we don't know exactly why 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:43.680 he did so. We can guess 00:50:44.660 --> 00:50:48.517 the reasons that he said he did so, and this was for religious 00:50:48.600 --> 00:50:54.760 reasons. In other words, he wanted people to go to the temples and pray and 00:50:54.880 --> 00:51:01.380 give thanks to the gods for him, for his survival out of a coup. 00:51:01.720 --> 00:51:05.390 Which is whatever. And it's 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:09.297 possible that there was some kind of religious motivation here, and he wanted 00:51:09.380 --> 00:51:13.257 everybody to do so as Roman citizens to honor the Roman gods and something like 00:51:13.340 --> 00:51:17.080 that. Other historians at the time said he did it for tax reasons. 00:51:17.820 --> 00:51:21.617 We don't know exactly. There might even have been 00:51:21.700 --> 00:51:25.637 a kind of ideology of a unified community across 00:51:25.720 --> 00:51:29.620 the empire playing in his, if not in his mind, in that of 00:51:29.780 --> 00:51:34.940 the jurists, that is the legal advisors that he had. So that's possible. But 00:51:35.820 --> 00:51:42.820 less interesting than his motivations, more interesting are the 00:51:43.000 --> 00:51:46.750 consequences of this—... and what it tells us about the Roman community. So 00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:54.330 imagine a situation where, like, no modern empire has ever done this really, right? 00:51:55.540 --> 00:51:58.957 When what's significant about the Roman case is that not only did they extend 00:51:59.040 --> 00:52:02.857 citizenship to everybody, but they meant it. This is something that had teeth. In 00:52:02.940 --> 00:52:06.677 other words, it meant that the rights and opportunities that were available to 00:52:06.760 --> 00:52:10.480 Roman citizens, say, in the Roman Senate at Rome— 00:52:10.600 --> 00:52:17.097 ... are now available to everybody. And within a generation, you have a situation 00:52:17.180 --> 00:52:20.360 where, like, all of the emperors are provincials, 00:52:21.580 --> 00:52:25.057 right? All the most powerful people in the empire are from the provinces. 00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:28.560 - This is, like, mind-breaking, mind-blowing. This is incredible. 00:52:29.020 --> 00:52:33.320 The fact that the Roman Empire was able to do this, and it stuck. 00:52:33.600 --> 00:52:34.717 - They did it, and they meant it. 00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.747 - And they meant it. They implemented it. It was real. 00:52:37.830 --> 00:52:41.600 That's, that tells you, that's an important thing that tells you a 00:52:41.720 --> 00:52:45.817 lot of information about the populace of the Roman Empire. 00:52:45.900 --> 00:52:49.440 That the, the fact that it stuck, that the government meant it, 00:52:49.820 --> 00:52:53.957 that the system encouraged, incentivized the government to mean it. 00:52:54.040 --> 00:52:54.837 It's incredible. 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:58.697 - Yeah, and there's a law of citizenship, and it, basically it says something like, 00:52:58.780 --> 00:53:01.630 "Anyone born within the Roman Empire is a Roman citizen." 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.937 And the Roman jurists and policymakers who were behind, 00:53:06.020 --> 00:53:09.597 This had some very interesting ideas about, you know, creating this kind of 00:53:09.680 --> 00:53:13.520 community. Look, like, imagine if, I mean, it's almost 00:53:13.660 --> 00:53:17.537 impossible to, to imagine, but the, the British at the 00:53:17.620 --> 00:53:21.477 time of the peak of the empire bestowed British citizenship on 00:53:21.560 --> 00:53:25.097 everyone, including in India, and, like, 00:53:25.180 --> 00:53:29.057 suddenly made positions of power in London available to 00:53:29.140 --> 00:53:33.610 people from India, like, including the throne. Like, it's just unthinkable. 00:53:34.140 --> 00:53:36.912 And that has to do, you know, with race and colonialism and all kinds of things, 00:53:36.996 --> 00:53:37.829 right? 00:53:38.050 --> 00:53:41.937 But not in the Roman Empire. So we have a situation where 00:53:42.020 --> 00:53:45.937 the emperors are all from the provinces. The most powerful officials are 00:53:46.020 --> 00:53:49.840 all from the provinces. And so a century later, 00:53:50.240 --> 00:53:53.870 when Constantinople is created, this is, it's created, 00:53:54.260 --> 00:53:58.020 right, like, in, in the Bosporus, so, like, where modern Istanbul is, 00:53:58.900 --> 00:54:02.717 in the Eastern Roman Empire. It's created within the preexisting Roman 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:06.880 context, right? It doesn't bring Romanness to the East. It's already there. 00:54:07.740 --> 00:54:11.730 And so it's not such a leap to create a center of Roman power 00:54:11.840 --> 00:54:13.500 in the East because of that. 00:54:13.860 --> 00:54:16.718 - And you've helped put together a book on the history of intellectual thought in 00:54:16.801 --> 00:54:17.577 the East Roman Empire. 00:54:17.660 --> 00:54:21.317 But this is the interesting thing here, and I can ask that many 00:54:21.400 --> 00:54:25.237 times, but let me ask it here also, is the great man, the 00:54:25.320 --> 00:54:27.520 great woman view of history. 00:54:28.380 --> 00:54:33.640 Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or those types of characters in the meetings 00:54:34.660 --> 00:54:38.477 as they're executing on the edict or developing 00:54:38.560 --> 00:54:42.377 the edict? Is that important, or is it more about the system and the culture and 00:54:42.460 --> 00:54:43.940 just, uh— 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:47.610 ... is it, how important was it? 'Cause this seems like a revolutionary idea, 00:54:47.693 --> 00:54:48.057 and when 00:54:48.140 --> 00:54:52.017 we think about the American Revolution and the, the founding documents, it seems 00:54:52.100 --> 00:54:55.067 like a few individuals— 00:54:55.150 --> 00:54:59.140 ... were really critical about the wording of things, and then words matter 00:54:59.540 --> 00:55:03.340 because those words create the reality, and then it propagates through time. 00:55:03.520 --> 00:55:07.317 - Yeah. For the edict, I suspect that yes, there were a few people who were behind 00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:11.117 it, and quite possibly jurists, that is Roman legal scholars. 00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:14.900 And, and 212 is in an age of very important 00:55:15.600 --> 00:55:19.600 Roman legal scholars Ulpian, for example, and others. 00:55:20.440 --> 00:55:24.367 But we just don't have those... We, we have-... minutes of the meetings for the- 00:55:24.450 --> 00:55:27.908 ... American Revolution. Not only do we not know who was in the room, 00:55:27.992 --> 00:55:29.697 we don't actually even have the whole 00:55:29.780 --> 00:55:33.797 edict. We have a papyrus fragment, this is a piece of ancient paper— 00:55:33.880 --> 00:55:37.437 ... that's mostly torn and mutilated, and we have, like, a bit of a 00:55:37.520 --> 00:55:43.277 paragraph from it. Um, in Greek, not even the Latin original. And it's kind of torn, 00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.220 but it actually preserves the key clause. Right? And that's, 00:55:48.450 --> 00:55:52.287 that's all we have of the original. We have contemporary sources that 00:55:52.370 --> 00:55:55.630 mention it, we have legal documents, but nothing like a, 00:55:56.670 --> 00:56:00.650 Like we can talk about the people involved in it. Or even 00:56:00.750 --> 00:56:04.607 how it was immediately implemented. Like, suddenly we know everyone in the 00:56:04.690 --> 00:56:08.227 provinces, like, there's this explosion in the number of people called 00:56:08.310 --> 00:56:12.390 Aurelius, because that was his Roman family name. 00:56:13.030 --> 00:56:18.170 Um, and so when you acquired citizenship from that edict, you became an Aurelius. 00:56:18.350 --> 00:56:21.174 Right? And there are lots of Aurelii suddenly all over the place. Like, 00:56:21.258 --> 00:56:26.377 we can see it immediately. Uh, but we can't actually see the implementation. 00:56:26.460 --> 00:56:30.750 - But your instinct says that individuals were very important 00:56:31.570 --> 00:56:33.707 in the development of that idea and execution of it. 00:56:33.790 --> 00:56:37.627 - Probably, yeah. Yeah. Even though it's part of a long-term process 00:56:37.710 --> 00:56:42.810 of expanding Roman citizenship, this was a, an explosion, not just an expansion. 00:56:43.310 --> 00:56:46.970 - And then you said that one of the important aspects about this edict is 00:56:47.070 --> 00:56:50.987 that giving equal rights to provincials 00:56:51.070 --> 00:56:53.420 was one of the things that helped deal with the 00:56:53.790 --> 00:56:57.420 crisis of the third century, and was the thing that, 00:56:57.990 --> 00:57:01.527 I think you said, quote, "sapped discontent from the 00:57:01.610 --> 00:57:07.007 relevant populations," which then minimized the probability of uprisings. 00:57:07.090 --> 00:57:09.567 - Well, now that's a very long-term process. 00:57:09.650 --> 00:57:13.150 Now, the third century is chaos, there's a crisis, it's a mess, right? 00:57:13.570 --> 00:57:19.930 So what follows the edict is quite a few decades of unrest. 00:57:20.190 --> 00:57:21.487 - Okay, let's put it in mildly. 00:57:21.570 --> 00:57:25.490 Let's talk about the crisis of the third century, where 00:57:25.730 --> 00:57:30.730 26 emperors were murdered in a period of 50 years. 00:57:30.930 --> 00:57:32.910 - Yes. It's tremendous instability. 00:57:33.310 --> 00:57:37.040 - So there's civil wars nonstop. Almost all were, 00:57:37.270 --> 00:57:41.390 of these emperors were generals, and almost all were murdered by their men. 00:57:42.670 --> 00:57:48.730 So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash, plus there's a plague- 00:57:48.870 --> 00:57:55.870 ... from 249 to 262 AD, which is a pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It 00:57:56.850 --> 00:58:00.707 killed up to 5,000 people a day in Rome alone, devastating the 00:58:00.790 --> 00:58:05.710 tax base and army recruitment pool. And the empire 00:58:07.010 --> 00:58:10.660 fractured into three pieces, but then Emperor, 00:58:10.910 --> 00:58:15.550 Aurelian miraculously reconquered them in a period of five years. 00:58:16.370 --> 00:58:20.787 So just a lot of chaos. It deserves the name, the Crisis of the Third Century. 00:58:20.870 --> 00:58:22.676 - Yeah, it's a perfect storm. Yeah, I mean, 00:58:22.759 --> 00:58:24.547 you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy. 00:58:24.630 --> 00:58:29.390 Basically, the army's proclaiming emperors left and right. In an odd sense, 00:58:30.220 --> 00:58:33.490 ironically, this is in part because there are now a lot more 00:58:33.590 --> 00:58:35.379 stakeholders in the Roman tradition, right? 00:58:35.462 --> 00:58:37.207 There's all of these provincial armies, 00:58:37.290 --> 00:58:40.630 and they're appointing their generals as rival emperors. 00:58:41.490 --> 00:58:46.850 But you also have a serious uptick in foreign invasions. 00:58:47.430 --> 00:58:51.107 In the north, you have the creation of the Sasanian Persian or 00:58:51.190 --> 00:58:54.350 Iranian Empire in the east, and this was very, very bellicose. 00:58:55.410 --> 00:58:59.390 So lots of foreign defeats. Armies are defeated by 00:58:59.730 --> 00:59:03.307 you know, like, quote, "barbarian enemies." You have eventually 00:59:03.390 --> 00:59:09.607 inflation, and you have plague. And so under the pressure, right, of all of those 00:59:09.690 --> 00:59:14.747 forces, it almost fell apart. Now, it didn't actually. 00:59:14.830 --> 00:59:18.480 Inevitably, there are also historians who downplay the crisis. Of course, 00:59:18.610 --> 00:59:22.387 right, like, and legitimately so, right? We must push back against every of these 00:59:22.470 --> 00:59:25.607 characterizations. - 26 emperors died, bro. What do you- 00:59:25.690 --> 00:59:29.597 - That's just the emperors. That's just the emperors. We should be 00:59:29.680 --> 00:59:31.867 - I'm sorry. In 50 years. - Yeah. 00:59:31.950 --> 00:59:33.600 - Every other year, emperor dead. 00:59:33.770 --> 00:59:34.907 - Yeah, that's- - Civil war 00:59:34.990 --> 00:59:39.097 -... that's political instability at the top, right? But what- - Right, that's not- 00:59:39.180 --> 00:59:40.807 -... what are the l- the lives of most people? 00:59:40.890 --> 00:59:40.930 - Sure. 00:59:40.910 --> 00:59:44.660 - So if you go to Egypt, for example, which is kind of out of the... Right? 00:59:45.210 --> 00:59:47.124 What's going on there? How are people living there? 00:59:47.208 --> 00:59:49.007 And we can see how people are living in Egypt 00:59:49.090 --> 00:59:51.840 because we have all these papyrus documents from Egypt. 00:59:52.650 --> 00:59:53.317 - That's true. 00:59:53.400 --> 00:59:56.187 - And for the most part, they don't seem to be experiencing a crisis. 00:59:56.270 --> 00:59:59.687 - I mean, this is something you talk about. Constantine, as we'll get to him, 00:59:59.770 --> 01:00:03.527 is one of the most murderous leaders in all of human 01:00:03.610 --> 01:00:07.567 history, if you consider his own family. But 01:00:07.650 --> 01:00:13.667 if you're living in the provinces, you know, there's... He's not- 01:00:13.750 --> 01:00:15.207 - Oh, yeah, yeah. -... he's not that murderous. 01:00:15.290 --> 01:00:16.647 - No, no, no, he's perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah. 01:00:16.730 --> 01:00:20.391 - So it's very important to actually remember about what the actual experience 01:00:20.474 --> 01:00:20.547 of 01:00:20.630 --> 01:00:27.630 the average citizen of the empire is like. Fair. Okay, so but how... Maybe there's 01:00:27.850 --> 01:00:31.667 more we could say about the crisis. And then of course, the, the 01:00:31.750 --> 01:00:35.687 crisis is in part resolved by Diocletian as 01:00:35.770 --> 01:00:38.787 he does a hard reset on the structure on the Roman system of 01:00:38.870 --> 01:00:42.527 government. So maybe you could speak a little bit more to the crisis that's 01:00:42.610 --> 01:00:48.010 important for us to understand, and how Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD. 01:00:48.710 --> 01:00:52.410 - Right. So again, these are processes rather than specific events. 01:00:52.530 --> 01:00:53.027 - Sure. 01:00:53.110 --> 01:00:56.950 - So for example, you mentioned that the empire kind of breaks into pieces. 01:00:57.170 --> 01:01:01.550 - Yes. - And we have what's called sometime the Empire of the Gauls. 01:01:02.170 --> 01:01:06.030 Gaul are modern France and sort of Britain, for a while are, for 01:01:06.290 --> 01:01:09.737 a decade and a half or so, are kind of like this little separatist- 01:01:09.820 --> 01:01:13.707 empire. So what's interesting about that is that this was 01:01:13.790 --> 01:01:17.727 not an attempt to break away from the empire. In other words, 01:01:17.810 --> 01:01:21.447 it's not some discontent provincials who are just tired of Roman 01:01:21.530 --> 01:01:25.390 rule and wanna break away and do their own thing. No. 01:01:26.650 --> 01:01:29.990 This is actually just a, it's an attempt by, 01:01:30.280 --> 01:01:34.187 provincial generals to take the throne, and do so to rule the entire 01:01:34.270 --> 01:01:38.460 empire. It doesn't work. They get only as far as the provinces that they take. 01:01:38.930 --> 01:01:42.970 And the only way that they know to set up a state is to make it a Roman state. 01:01:43.290 --> 01:01:47.170 Right? Like, that's the total of their political imaginary is like, "Well, 01:01:47.390 --> 01:01:49.390 we're just gonna do a Roman thing here." 01:01:50.180 --> 01:01:53.837 And maybe we'll get, you know, we'll reunite the 01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:57.837 empire ourselves, or as happened, Aurelian, that is someone from the other 01:01:57.920 --> 01:02:01.840 side, will reunite the empire. But it's always a Roman model. Like, there's, 01:02:01.940 --> 01:02:06.180 it's almost like there's no alternatives by this point. So that's interesting. 01:02:07.040 --> 01:02:09.840 What Diocletian does essentially is, 01:02:11.500 --> 01:02:15.257 The, the way I characterize it sometimes is that he 01:02:15.340 --> 01:02:17.340 turns the problem into its own solution. 01:02:18.080 --> 01:02:21.580 In other words, the problem is too many emperors or wanna-be emperors. 01:02:21.880 --> 01:02:25.420 Because there's just more going on. Like, one emperor can't deal with all these 01:02:25.503 --> 01:02:28.603 problems along the frontiers, with all the political problems. 01:02:29.500 --> 01:02:33.377 So what he does is he deputizes some of his colleagues, people he was on 01:02:33.460 --> 01:02:36.740 very good terms with from the army. These are all Illyrians. They're from... 01:02:36.823 --> 01:02:37.637 By the way, 01:02:37.720 --> 01:02:41.077 for a few centuries, the emperors are all from this region of the former 01:02:41.160 --> 01:02:44.757 Yugoslavia that's the size of Scotland. Like, that's where they all come from. 01:02:44.840 --> 01:02:46.957 - Well, what explains that? - Uh, the army. 01:02:47.040 --> 01:02:50.960 - Ah. - These are military men. Sometimes hard-drinking military men. 01:02:51.180 --> 01:02:54.957 Very good at their job like Aurelian, you mentioned, right? So there's a series of 01:02:55.040 --> 01:02:58.617 Illyrian emperors who 01:02:58.700 --> 01:03:02.477 restore stability. And the reason why there's so many Illyrian 01:03:02.560 --> 01:03:06.537 emperors is because they worked their way up through the ranks of the army. And, 01:03:06.620 --> 01:03:10.780 you know, the regions of Yugoslavia in, at that time are sufficiently, 01:03:11.620 --> 01:03:15.740 you know, economically underdeveloped that there's a strong incentive for, 01:03:16.680 --> 01:03:21.250 for young men to go join the army because, you know, it's a living. 01:03:21.460 --> 01:03:25.137 Um, and so Illyrians become, like, kind of the backbone of the 01:03:25.220 --> 01:03:29.177 Roman army, and they're described as these, you know, tough Roman conservative 01:03:29.260 --> 01:03:32.977 types. I mean, these are, you know, these are, these are tough 01:03:33.060 --> 01:03:36.997 military guys. I say that to draw a contrast between, say, 01:03:37.080 --> 01:03:39.127 Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier- 01:03:39.210 --> 01:03:42.920 ... you know, who was a much more sophisticated, artsy, poetic, 01:03:43.040 --> 01:03:44.857 cosmopolitan emperor. - Sure. 01:03:44.940 --> 01:03:48.520 - Also a hard-ass. You did not wanna mess with Hadrian. But, 01:03:49.040 --> 01:03:51.958 These guys from the third century are military men through and through. 01:03:52.041 --> 01:03:57.537 Like, their whole careers are in the army. And they have, like, the military stubble. 01:03:57.620 --> 01:03:59.577 They've got these thick necks. 01:03:59.660 --> 01:04:03.077 They look angry. They've got their hands on their swords. Like, they're not 01:04:03.160 --> 01:04:04.667 projecting an image of sort of- - Yeah. 01:04:04.750 --> 01:04:08.220 -... calm and sophisticated, you know, bum-bum, you know. 01:04:08.560 --> 01:04:10.347 - So, military men. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:04:10.430 --> 01:04:11.057 -... military men from Aurelian. 01:04:11.140 --> 01:04:14.957 - Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them together. They, eventually there are 01:04:15.040 --> 01:04:22.040 four. We call this the Tetrarchy. Um, and he basically allocates them to various, 01:04:22.620 --> 01:04:26.170 um... This wasn't any kind of hard division of the empire. 01:04:26.260 --> 01:04:31.520 Basically, it was a collaborative project. They each went wherever they were needed. 01:04:31.780 --> 01:04:35.580 - Uh, was it, is it fair to say that there was four administrative zones? 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.217 He allocated each one to a zone? 01:04:38.300 --> 01:04:40.420 - Broadly. I'd say more military zones. 01:04:40.780 --> 01:04:40.957 - Okay. 01:04:41.040 --> 01:04:44.917 - Um, so the administration tends to operate, it kind of humming along in the 01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:48.640 background wherever these emperors happen to be, right? This is a, 01:04:49.240 --> 01:04:53.077 We're talking about a period of big government now. So Diocletian creates a 01:04:53.160 --> 01:04:56.414 larger government, possibly a larger army, and in order to pay for that, 01:04:56.497 --> 01:04:58.747 you need more systematic and effective taxation- - Mm-hmm. 01:04:58.830 --> 01:05:01.383 -... which means you need more census, you need more bureaucracy, 01:05:01.467 --> 01:05:05.697 you need more collect... You know? So it is an era of bigger government. 01:05:05.780 --> 01:05:07.367 - So just to linger on that point- - Yeah. 01:05:07.450 --> 01:05:10.505 -... is it fair to say that Diocletian created the deep state? Quote, 01:05:10.589 --> 01:05:14.390 "deep state." So the tax collectors, the, the logistics, 01:05:15.200 --> 01:05:18.711 the thing that you've kinda hinted at, which is the separation of the civil 01:05:18.795 --> 01:05:21.580 and the military layer of society. 01:05:21.960 --> 01:05:25.940 - So the concept of a deep state, I've had discussions about that 01:05:26.080 --> 01:05:29.817 with experts who work on the idea of the deep state, and I'm 01:05:29.900 --> 01:05:33.697 not sure that I would characterize the Roman Empire that 01:05:33.780 --> 01:05:37.637 way, in part because while you do have big government, you do have bureaucracy, you 01:05:37.720 --> 01:05:41.577 have, you have bureaucrats who are buried in various echelons, and you 01:05:41.660 --> 01:05:44.837 know, nobody knows exactly what they're doing and things like that, 01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:48.730 you know, I have not come across the idea of some sort of 01:05:48.820 --> 01:05:53.859 sinister elements, you know, who are working within the administrative 01:05:53.942 --> 01:05:57.620 apparatus to undermine the emperor. 01:05:58.080 --> 01:06:02.307 Like, from a distance occasionally, you might get glimpses of this kind of thing. 01:06:02.390 --> 01:06:05.348 Diocletian, for example, once complained that, "Nobody ever tells me anything." 01:06:05.431 --> 01:06:07.332 In other words, like, he's so removed- 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:11.360 ... in part from the realities of what's going on on the ground that he, 01:06:11.480 --> 01:06:17.737 felt sometimes he'd lost touch. But I don't find this kind of idea of of 01:06:17.820 --> 01:06:21.080 undermining imperial power from within the bureaucracy. 01:06:21.240 --> 01:06:25.157 - Yeah, I think the, one of the ways to explain that is because, so, you 01:06:25.240 --> 01:06:26.440 know, in the modern day, 01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:32.407 democracy in quotes, there's a kind of temporary nature to the leader at the top. 01:06:32.490 --> 01:06:34.997 So it's incentivized the deep state to form. 01:06:35.080 --> 01:06:38.037 That, so the deep state thinks of themselves as a thing that 01:06:38.120 --> 01:06:41.837 propagates long-term periods of time, and then the 01:06:41.920 --> 01:06:44.470 leader is a very ephemeral short, short-term thing. 01:06:45.180 --> 01:06:46.987 - Yeah. - With a, with an emperor, technically- 01:06:47.070 --> 01:06:50.980 ... you can go for a long time, so it's best to be integrated deeply. 01:06:51.500 --> 01:06:55.400 With, the bureaucracy should be integrated with the leader. It makes sense. 01:06:55.700 --> 01:06:56.967 - Yeah. But also, - Fair enough 01:06:57.050 --> 01:07:03.277 -... also in, in, in modern social thought or, or fear is that the deep state might 01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:05.480 be undermining, say... - Undermining, yeah 01:07:05.580 --> 01:07:08.408 -... the democracy itself rather than, right, rather than... 01:07:08.491 --> 01:07:13.460 It can cut both ways. - But there is a bureaucracy. There is a big government. 01:07:13.580 --> 01:07:15.537 - Absolutely. Yeah. - There's a big machinery. 01:07:15.620 --> 01:07:17.767 - Yeah, compared to before. - Before. 01:07:17.850 --> 01:07:18.683 - Yes. 01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:21.349 So Diocletian creates these larger bureaucratic structures, 01:07:21.432 --> 01:07:22.817 and these are the ones that define 01:07:22.900 --> 01:07:26.817 the society that I study. So as a specialist, I focus on 01:07:26.900 --> 01:07:29.050 the period after him mostly. 01:07:29.200 --> 01:07:33.080 But he implemented those to solve a lot of these problems. 01:07:33.520 --> 01:07:37.397 He was mostly successful. So in terms of generating revenue from 01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:43.477 a much more troubled and kind of precarious situation in sustaining large 01:07:43.560 --> 01:07:50.560 armies and putting down these rebellions and usurpations. And he was 01:07:50.820 --> 01:07:52.570 generally successful at doing that. 01:07:53.220 --> 01:07:59.140 So he created the model that they kept for the next, Well, three centuries or more. 01:08:00.330 --> 01:08:04.670 - But a lot of the elements of that model lasted even beyond that, right? 01:08:04.830 --> 01:08:08.590 - Yeah, like universal taxation. I'll give you an example. Up until then, 01:08:09.590 --> 01:08:12.367 Italy was exempt from taxes. Italy was the land of the conquerors. 01:08:12.450 --> 01:08:13.447 The conquerors don't pay 01:08:13.530 --> 01:08:17.080 taxes to themselves. The conquerors live off the taxes that others pay, 01:08:17.490 --> 01:08:21.330 right? So Italy was this big tax haven, right? 01:08:22.150 --> 01:08:25.610 Diocletian, Galerius, you know, his guys, these guys are from 01:08:25.850 --> 01:08:27.547 Illyria. They're from the Balkans. 01:08:27.630 --> 01:08:31.680 Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you know? That doesn't make any sense. It's a 01:08:31.790 --> 01:08:35.567 very, very wealthy, prosperous part of the world, and so, no, they 01:08:35.650 --> 01:08:39.537 tax Italy. So now, like, not only do all Romans have the same citizenship and 01:08:39.620 --> 01:08:42.910 the same law, they all have the same tax system, 01:08:43.530 --> 01:08:47.487 and the Diocletianic tax code, as it were, it's not a code, it sounds like 01:08:47.570 --> 01:08:50.650 a flat tax, which for us sounds regressive. 01:08:51.410 --> 01:08:54.987 But by those stand- by the standards of that time, it's actually kind of 01:08:55.070 --> 01:08:57.047 progressive in a way. - Right. 01:08:57.130 --> 01:08:58.197 - It means that, like, even- - Right. 01:08:58.280 --> 01:09:00.950 -... elites paid, like, the same, right? Yeah. 01:09:01.990 --> 01:09:05.927 - So how much of all of this, everything we'll talk about in the, in 01:09:06.010 --> 01:09:08.210 the coming centuries is all about taxation? 01:09:08.650 --> 01:09:11.100 - I think it's huge. Taxation is the heart of it. 01:09:12.390 --> 01:09:16.660 - So I mean, the functioning, the success, the flourishing of a society, 01:09:17.530 --> 01:09:20.475 the way the government works, the way the people are represented, 01:09:20.558 --> 01:09:21.437 all of it has to do, 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:25.170 all the civil wars and everything, it feels like taxation is at the core. 01:09:25.290 --> 01:09:30.050 - Yes. Yeah. If you asked me to put my finger on one factor, it would be that. 01:09:30.590 --> 01:09:34.507 - So the taxation system, that feels like the early 01:09:34.590 --> 01:09:36.927 framework for the East Roman Empire. 01:09:37.010 --> 01:09:40.890 - It did create a more sort of homogeneous framework, for sure. 01:09:40.990 --> 01:09:44.367 By the end of the third century, it's pretty much in place. What 01:09:44.450 --> 01:09:47.790 Diocletian does is a universal census, 01:09:48.490 --> 01:09:51.680 and this is continued by his successors. So every 01:09:52.390 --> 01:09:58.550 taxable asset in the empire is censused. And so you can now start to have a budget. 01:09:59.390 --> 01:10:02.690 - Now, there is some element, and then you push back against that, 01:10:03.310 --> 01:10:09.894 some element of Diocletian where he legally limited social and class mobility 01:10:09.977 --> 01:10:14.047 in part for the taxation system, and made it, in many 01:10:14.130 --> 01:10:17.827 cases, illegal to move and illegal to quit your job. For 01:10:17.910 --> 01:10:21.707 example, as I read to guarantee the food 01:10:21.790 --> 01:10:25.567 supply and land tax, farmers were legally forbidden from 01:10:25.650 --> 01:10:29.387 moving away from the land they worked, so the state always knew who to 01:10:29.470 --> 01:10:32.827 tax. And then for soldiers, sons of veterans were 01:10:32.910 --> 01:10:37.630 legally obligated to serve in the army to maintain troop numbers. 01:10:38.570 --> 01:10:42.050 You argue that these were tax enforcement 01:10:42.170 --> 01:10:46.027 mechanisms, not a rigid caste system, and so in practice, the 01:10:46.110 --> 01:10:49.230 empire remained a society of high mobility. 01:10:50.030 --> 01:10:51.747 - This is a complicated matter. 01:10:51.830 --> 01:10:55.787 So let's talk, for example, about soldiers. It's probably 01:10:55.870 --> 01:11:02.787 the case that most soldiers' sons were expected to succeed them. Like most 01:11:02.870 --> 01:11:06.447 professions where you have an apprenticeship, the son will usually 01:11:06.530 --> 01:11:09.910 succeed, right? There are a number of other 01:11:10.070 --> 01:11:15.130 professions that were kind of guild-like in nature like for example, shipping. 01:11:15.470 --> 01:11:21.027 Uh, where there were considerable assets involved in order to 01:11:21.110 --> 01:11:25.030 secure contracts for insurance purposes for the ships and so forth, 01:11:25.230 --> 01:11:28.684 and it made sense for those assets to be, you know, passed from father to son. 01:11:28.767 --> 01:11:32.847 In other words, and with them comes the obligation to 01:11:32.930 --> 01:11:39.930 continue in that line of work. Some of these things are inherently, sort of 01:11:40.100 --> 01:11:43.930 hereditary, and I don't think most people would have objected to it. 01:11:44.690 --> 01:11:48.030 The farmers is probably the only case 01:11:48.270 --> 01:11:52.207 where it might have actually involved some coercion. There was 01:11:52.290 --> 01:11:55.930 a category of farmers, and we don't know how many of them, who were, 01:11:56.850 --> 01:11:59.190 for fiscal purposes, bound to the land. 01:12:00.090 --> 01:12:02.203 This doesn't mean they couldn't leave the land, like physically. 01:12:02.286 --> 01:12:03.567 No one's preventing them from leaving. 01:12:03.650 --> 01:12:07.347 But they were fiscally responsible for providing the taxes or rents or 01:12:07.430 --> 01:12:11.147 whatever because the state wanted to have a secure 01:12:11.230 --> 01:12:15.127 revenue stream from, say, those lands. And if... Anyway, it's, it's one of these 01:12:15.210 --> 01:12:19.087 complicated situations. This did create some limitations on, 01:12:19.170 --> 01:12:22.890 on those people. And it's a topic of current research, 01:12:23.490 --> 01:12:25.190 these bound farmers, as it were, 01:12:25.990 --> 01:12:29.267 who are tied to the land. It's more of a... You know, someone put it that, 01:12:29.350 --> 01:12:33.167 you know, most of the time it's people who own the land, and in 01:12:33.250 --> 01:12:35.900 this arrangement, it's the land that owns the people. 01:12:36.400 --> 01:12:39.667 - But you're saying the bigger picture thing is that there was mobility. 01:12:39.750 --> 01:12:40.277 - Oh, there's considerable mobility. 01:12:40.360 --> 01:12:42.337 - So, so class mobility-... and physical mobility- 01:12:42.420 --> 01:12:46.120 ... meaning people moved a... And we'll see this as from the West into the 01:12:46.210 --> 01:12:48.157 East and Constantinople and all this kind of stuff. 01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:50.410 - Oh, yeah. There's tons of mobility. 01:12:50.630 --> 01:12:53.630 No, no, this is not a society where people are bound really, 01:12:54.390 --> 01:12:58.190 to... We, like, we don't find anybody who's, who's like, "Ah, I 01:12:59.370 --> 01:13:02.153 I really don't want to be a soldier. But my father was a soldier, 01:13:02.236 --> 01:13:03.207 and I'm obligated to be 01:13:03.290 --> 01:13:06.367 one." Like-... like, we just don't hear those kinds of complaints- 01:13:06.450 --> 01:13:09.217 of people who don't want to be a so- Why wouldn't you want to be a soldier in 01:13:09.301 --> 01:13:11.307 the Roman Empire? I mean, it's got tremendous perks. 01:13:11.390 --> 01:13:16.330 - Right. Right. So can we just linger on the why is it that Diocletian 01:13:17.150 --> 01:13:20.987 was able to stabilize the empire? It's like, you 01:13:21.070 --> 01:13:24.109 know, the crisis of the third century really threatened to tear apart 01:13:24.192 --> 01:13:25.026 everything. 01:13:25.510 --> 01:13:29.950 So why did some of these things that we talked about stabilize? 01:13:30.270 --> 01:13:33.320 - Well, Aurelian had already united the empire territorially. 01:13:33.490 --> 01:13:35.240 So this is right before Diocletian. 01:13:36.110 --> 01:13:39.587 And what Diocletian did was put in place a system that 01:13:39.670 --> 01:13:43.527 reduced the number of rebellions. Simply by having four big guys with 01:13:43.610 --> 01:13:47.800 four armies, they managed to put out all of those fires, or most of them. 01:13:48.690 --> 01:13:52.527 And once you have stability, and he also beat the Persians, I 01:13:52.610 --> 01:13:56.007 mean, Galerius did so starting to beat back foreign 01:13:56.090 --> 01:14:01.690 invasions, that creates a framework for economic stability. People need 01:14:02.540 --> 01:14:06.300 To, you know, if they're going to invest in, like, land reclamation 01:14:06.400 --> 01:14:10.217 or expand production, they need to know that, you know, 01:14:10.300 --> 01:14:13.054 foreigners aren't gonna come rampaging through, marauding through the, 01:14:13.137 --> 01:14:14.077 you know, stealing their 01:14:14.160 --> 01:14:17.717 cattle and, you know, enslaving them and taking them off to work on 01:14:17.800 --> 01:14:20.887 agricultural farms in Mesopotamia. Like, they need to know this. 01:14:20.970 --> 01:14:24.377 And if you provide that context of stability, the economic growth, the 01:14:24.460 --> 01:14:29.061 demographic growth will return. And Diocletian created that kind of, 01:14:29.144 --> 01:14:30.040 that context. 01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:35.237 - So that takes us to Constantine but first a quick bathroom break, if I can. 01:14:35.320 --> 01:14:36.153 - Sure. 01:14:36.360 --> 01:14:38.269 - Quick ten-second thank you to our sponsors. 01:14:38.352 --> 01:14:40.317 Check them out in the description. It really 01:14:40.400 --> 01:14:42.767 is the best way to support this podcast. Go to 01:14:42.850 --> 01:14:46.560 lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear friends, 01:14:47.100 --> 01:14:51.020 back to our conversation about the Eastern Roman Empire. 01:14:52.220 --> 01:14:55.860 All right, we're back, and let's talk about Constantine 01:14:56.280 --> 01:15:00.057 and Constantinople. Let's go to the rise of the East Roman 01:15:00.140 --> 01:15:03.957 Empire. Who was Constantine? Tell me about his rise 01:15:04.040 --> 01:15:08.400 to power and the founding of Constantinople in 330 AD. 01:15:08.700 --> 01:15:12.540 - Sure. So Constantine was the son of one of Diocletian's colleagues, 01:15:12.960 --> 01:15:14.710 so he comes from within the system. 01:15:15.700 --> 01:15:19.540 And the system was actually designed to be non-hereditary. In other words, 01:15:20.420 --> 01:15:24.197 the senior emperors would retire, the junior ones would move up to the senior 01:15:24.280 --> 01:15:27.160 position, and then they would recruit two new ones. 01:15:27.680 --> 01:15:31.400 And they tried to skip the dynastic element. So, 01:15:31.660 --> 01:15:35.360 so it would be kind of, let's just say, kinda meritocratic, not 01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:39.370 whose son, you know, you were. Constantine was a son. He was passed over, 01:15:39.880 --> 01:15:42.970 but the armies liked him. He was actually quite competent. 01:15:43.180 --> 01:15:47.037 And so there's a series of civil wars among all of these 01:15:47.120 --> 01:15:50.670 successors of Diocletian, and Constantine emerges as the winner. 01:15:51.360 --> 01:15:53.891 There are periods when there are quite a few of them. There are, like, 01:15:53.974 --> 01:15:59.200 six at a time, but they gra- they gradually dwindle down to one. So 01:15:59.540 --> 01:16:02.391 yeah, it's as long as you have the quarterfinals, semifinals, 01:16:02.474 --> 01:16:06.740 and then the final war, and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole 01:16:07.120 --> 01:16:11.090 ruler of the entire Roman Empire. So that's who he is. He's 01:16:11.360 --> 01:16:14.700 definitely an insider, very, very competent 01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:19.300 general at civil war. And he gradually moves eastward. 01:16:20.120 --> 01:16:23.737 So as he's conquering his rivals, who are often 01:16:23.820 --> 01:16:27.157 his father-in-laws or his brother-in-laws, because these people are all 01:16:27.240 --> 01:16:30.277 intermarried, and they have alliances, and they fall out. It's one of those kinds of 01:16:30.360 --> 01:16:34.297 situations. He moves eastward, and by the time he defeats his 01:16:34.380 --> 01:16:41.380 last rival, this uh, an emperor called Licinius, in 324 he's in the East. And 01:16:42.180 --> 01:16:45.680 Licinius had his headquarters or one of his headquarters at 01:16:45.980 --> 01:16:49.280 this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a 01:16:49.820 --> 01:16:53.060 city right where Constantinople was founded. 01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:58.280 And it is at exactly the point where Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus. 01:16:59.120 --> 01:17:01.614 And it's a very strategic location. It always had been, right? 01:17:01.697 --> 01:17:03.057 So whoever controls the straits of 01:17:03.140 --> 01:17:06.490 the Bosporus, yeah, we don't need to explain how important that is. 01:17:07.180 --> 01:17:10.880 And Constantine decides to create a city named after himself, 01:17:11.020 --> 01:17:14.857 Constantinople, on that spot, Byzantium. So Byzantium 01:17:14.940 --> 01:17:19.700 essentially ceases to exist as a city and is replaced by Constantinople, 01:17:20.720 --> 01:17:24.120 AKA New Rome. So it's pretty clear that right from the beginning, 01:17:24.240 --> 01:17:28.077 Constantine intended this to be a kind of branch 01:17:28.160 --> 01:17:32.200 office of Rome in the East, a kind of copy and paste of Rome 01:17:33.260 --> 01:17:37.960 in the East, and it's a plan that his successors continued, right? Now, 01:17:39.860 --> 01:17:43.720 there are a number of other cities in this, 01:17:43.840 --> 01:17:46.400 Let's say in the generation or two before this, 01:17:47.400 --> 01:17:51.180 that were also treated as sort of quasi-Romes. Basically, 01:17:51.540 --> 01:17:53.740 there was this historian in the third century who said, "Well, 01:17:53.823 --> 01:17:58.627 wherever the emperor is, that's Rome," right? 'Cause emperors are now itinerant. 01:17:58.710 --> 01:18:02.317 They're no longer staying at Rome. They're mostly on the frontier, and 01:18:02.400 --> 01:18:04.197 Constantine is one of these frontier emperors. 01:18:04.280 --> 01:18:06.077 They will sometimes visit Rome, maybe once or 01:18:06.160 --> 01:18:09.260 twice, maybe once a decade, you know, something like this. 01:18:10.120 --> 01:18:13.997 So Rome becomes something that can be sort of copied 01:18:14.080 --> 01:18:17.617 and pasted in other parts of the empire, and a bunch of other cities get 01:18:17.700 --> 01:18:21.237 called, you know, a New Rome, an Other Rome, an 01:18:21.320 --> 01:18:25.217 Alternative Rome, My Rome. And Constantinople 01:18:25.300 --> 01:18:28.020 is the last and most successful of those. 01:18:28.740 --> 01:18:31.735 - So maybe can you speak geographically the importance of Constantinople? 01:18:31.819 --> 01:18:34.200 It's an interesting place 'cause it- 01:18:35.580 --> 01:18:39.497 ... when you're talking about a land so large as the West and the East, with 01:18:39.580 --> 01:18:43.400 enemies, with threats from all kinds of different directions, the 01:18:43.520 --> 01:18:46.740 location where the emperor sits is important. 01:18:46.960 --> 01:18:48.380 - Very. So look at Rome, 01:18:49.580 --> 01:18:51.019 right? So it's right in the middle of Italy, 01:18:51.102 --> 01:18:53.117 right in the middle of the Mediterranean. 01:18:53.200 --> 01:18:56.640 Very safe location in a way, but it's very far from the frontiers. 01:18:57.280 --> 01:19:01.357 And this is a period when emperors need to be with the armies, right? 01:19:01.440 --> 01:19:05.077 They're not senatorial emperors who are sitting in Rome having meetings with 01:19:05.160 --> 01:19:10.420 senators. They are military emperors who are marching along the frontiers, 01:19:11.260 --> 01:19:14.820 mostly with generals rather than civilian administration. 01:19:15.500 --> 01:19:19.080 So they're doing their job. Like, this is the hard 01:19:19.220 --> 01:19:24.667 work. They're slogging through the mud of winter campaigns, right? 01:19:24.750 --> 01:19:28.600 Uh, they're not just sitting in a palace enjoying themselves when they could. 01:19:28.940 --> 01:19:32.837 But Rome just becomes inconvenient because of that. And if you 01:19:32.920 --> 01:19:35.680 look at Constantinople, it is 01:19:36.660 --> 01:19:41.980 kind of halfway between the Danube frontier and the Euphrates frontier. 01:19:42.820 --> 01:19:46.697 So if you want to prioritize the East or treat it as an equal part of 01:19:46.780 --> 01:19:49.490 the Roman Empire, as these emperors all did. In fact, 01:19:50.440 --> 01:19:54.237 almost all emperors who had a choice about whether they would stay in the East 01:19:54.320 --> 01:19:58.117 or stay in the West chose the East. There's only one who 01:19:58.200 --> 01:20:01.267 chooses the West, and that's Valentinian later in the fourth century. 01:20:01.351 --> 01:20:04.201 All the others understand that the East is where it's at. 01:20:04.990 --> 01:20:07.486 And Constantinople is right between the Danube and the Euphrates. 01:20:07.569 --> 01:20:09.069 These are two major frontiers. 01:20:09.370 --> 01:20:12.130 And so it allows emperors to move between the two. 01:20:13.090 --> 01:20:16.827 And also look at its location north, south, east, west, right? So 01:20:16.910 --> 01:20:21.490 north, south, it is the node between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean, 01:20:22.310 --> 01:20:26.210 right? And east, west, it's precisely where Europe meets Asia, 01:20:26.870 --> 01:20:30.807 right? And because there's a break there, so there's a Bosporus, the 01:20:30.890 --> 01:20:34.470 Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont, the Roman Empire during the civil 01:20:34.570 --> 01:20:37.700 wars, it would tend to break there. 01:20:38.010 --> 01:20:39.930 And you would have one emperor on one side in Asia, 01:20:40.014 --> 01:20:41.807 and you would have another emperor on the other 01:20:41.890 --> 01:20:45.527 side. And this just kept happening. And 01:20:45.610 --> 01:20:52.124 Constantinople ultimately functions as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole 01:20:52.207 --> 01:20:53.040 area, 01:20:53.170 --> 01:21:00.170 so basically the Balkans and Asia Minor and Syria as a kind of unit, 01:21:00.970 --> 01:21:04.827 right? And, you know, what is a new Rome? A new 01:21:04.910 --> 01:21:11.727 Rome is, among other things, a new senate, right? And Constantine and his successors 01:21:11.810 --> 01:21:14.967 recruit this new senate for the new 01:21:15.050 --> 01:21:18.890 Rome. So we're talking about maybe two and a half thousand, 3,000 01:21:19.110 --> 01:21:22.647 men, you know, at, at, at its peak, and these are all 01:21:22.730 --> 01:21:25.980 recruited from all of these areas. You know, some come from Rome, 01:21:26.370 --> 01:21:29.970 but others come from the Aegean region, from Asia Minor, 01:21:30.690 --> 01:21:33.790 Eastern Mediterranean. So these are the wealthiest people, 01:21:34.210 --> 01:21:37.810 usually most well-connected elites from the whole Eastern Mediterranean, 01:21:38.270 --> 01:21:42.710 and they come together and form a new purpose, common purpose in Constantinople. 01:21:43.510 --> 01:21:45.510 And the empire never breaks there again. 01:21:46.110 --> 01:21:49.767 Right? So it, it holds together this part of the world. The 01:21:49.850 --> 01:21:52.700 breaking point now, interestingly, moves to the Adriatic, 01:21:53.570 --> 01:21:57.667 right? So when, in 395, we talked about East and West kind of splitting. 01:21:57.750 --> 01:22:01.387 It breaks at the Adriatic 'cause Constantinople is now holding that whole 01:22:01.470 --> 01:22:05.187 Eastern world together. 'Cause all of these elites, they now, they're 01:22:05.270 --> 01:22:07.353 invested in it. They're literally investing in it. 01:22:07.437 --> 01:22:10.837 They have to invest in it in order to be senators in Constantinople. 01:22:11.310 --> 01:22:13.653 So that's kind of one of the functions that it, that it performs, 01:22:13.736 --> 01:22:14.786 a strategic function. 01:22:15.430 --> 01:22:19.347 There's a political function. There's also a cultural one, but you know, we can talk 01:22:19.430 --> 01:22:23.227 about that, too. But that's what you see there on that map, the northwest, east, 01:22:23.310 --> 01:22:24.143 south. 01:22:24.410 --> 01:22:28.287 - So just to linger on it, so you do a podcast, 01:22:28.370 --> 01:22:33.550 Byzantium and Friends, but you're also a guest on podcasts, and I should mention 01:22:34.670 --> 01:22:38.247 you being a guest multiple times on the excellent The 01:22:38.330 --> 01:22:42.247 History of Byzantium podcast hosted by Robin Pierson. I 01:22:42.330 --> 01:22:44.817 highly recommend people listen to it, to all of your appearances. 01:22:44.901 --> 01:22:45.847 You have a lot of really 01:22:45.930 --> 01:22:49.730 fascinating ones. But the reason I bring all that up is one of the episodes, 01:22:50.270 --> 01:22:57.270 you do the fun thing of selecting the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and 01:22:58.110 --> 01:23:01.967 spoiler alert, everybody should go listen to the full list 'cause you 01:23:02.050 --> 01:23:08.722 justify all the different options. But Constantine ends up in the number one 01:23:08.806 --> 01:23:13.167 spot. And so can you just add a little bit more depth why he 01:23:13.250 --> 01:23:17.150 would be in your number one spot- - Yes -... now that we're talking about him? 01:23:17.410 --> 01:23:21.170 - Yes. It's not because I sort of like him as a person, right? I mean- 01:23:21.720 --> 01:23:23.770 ... as you said, he was pretty murderous. 01:23:23.890 --> 01:23:30.030 Right? All those wars, so clearly ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically. 01:23:30.270 --> 01:23:34.227 - Can you actually speak to the murderous aspect? He seemed to have murdered a 01:23:34.310 --> 01:23:40.110 lot of people in his family. - Yes, that's because what we call his family were also 01:23:40.230 --> 01:23:43.770 alliances of convenience that he made on the way to the top. 01:23:44.570 --> 01:23:48.467 And when those alliances or, you know, those, you 01:23:48.550 --> 01:23:52.170 know, those wives or those fathers-in-law were no longer convenient or, 01:23:52.790 --> 01:23:56.727 or turned against him, he had no hesitation in 01:23:56.810 --> 01:24:00.667 removing them. But he's also, you know, he 01:24:00.750 --> 01:24:05.287 gets a little extra bonus because he also murdered his own son, Crispus, who was- 01:24:05.370 --> 01:24:09.165 ... apparently a very competent and popular kind of general, 01:24:09.248 --> 01:24:14.930 and we don't know why. He executes Crispus soon after defeating Licinius, 01:24:15.830 --> 01:24:18.607 and then follows it up with the murder of his wife- 01:24:18.690 --> 01:24:22.607 ... not Crispus' mother, and we don't know why. The funny thing is that when 01:24:22.690 --> 01:24:26.467 emperors do this sort of thing, if there's any kind of remotely, like, a 01:24:26.550 --> 01:24:30.447 good reason, they'll blast it through all of the media, right? Like, "Crispus 01:24:30.530 --> 01:24:34.547 was rebelling against me," or whatever. There's nothing. 01:24:34.630 --> 01:24:38.330 He doesn't even try to justify it, which means it must have been something 01:24:38.710 --> 01:24:41.410 unjustifiable- Like, I don't know. I can't process it. 01:24:41.630 --> 01:24:45.467 - And also, I read that the historians of the time would 01:24:45.550 --> 01:24:47.100 just ignore that that happened. 01:24:47.710 --> 01:24:50.570 - Yes. Well, sort of. So 01:24:51.510 --> 01:24:54.950 when Crispus is alive, it's all, like, praising Crispus as, "Oh, 01:24:55.310 --> 01:24:58.467 Constantine, you great emperor, and your wonderful son who will..." whatever. 01:24:58.550 --> 01:25:01.397 And then Crispus is executed, and he just disappears from the, like- 01:25:01.480 --> 01:25:02.307 ... they never talk about him. 01:25:02.390 --> 01:25:08.170 - Yeah. Actually, as another side to a side, I think you mentioned, 01:25:09.290 --> 01:25:13.247 Whether it's on your podcast or elsewhere, that if, if you had 01:25:13.330 --> 01:25:16.730 to have a beer with any of the emperors, that you probably wouldn't. 01:25:17.490 --> 01:25:21.187 So it's not like some of the most impactful, some of the 01:25:21.270 --> 01:25:24.780 most influential and great emperors that we talk about, 01:25:25.510 --> 01:25:27.810 they might not be very pleasant people. 01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:31.804 - So let's set aside whether you'd like to have a beer with these people. 01:25:31.887 --> 01:25:32.547 The reason I put 01:25:32.630 --> 01:25:36.087 Constantine at the top of the list is because the decisions that he made were so 01:25:36.170 --> 01:25:39.420 consequential, just important, and 01:25:40.650 --> 01:25:47.650 for the most part, not bad decisions. So I couldn't not put him at the 01:25:49.390 --> 01:25:52.407 top of the list. The, you know, the creating 01:25:52.490 --> 01:25:56.021 Constantinople and converting to Christianity and setting the empire on 01:25:56.105 --> 01:26:01.360 a path to conversion, these are major, like, world history level decisions. 01:26:02.070 --> 01:26:05.847 Right? Now, not many emperors do that. In fact, Constantine is in, 01:26:05.930 --> 01:26:09.080 like, his own league when it comes to those kinds of decisions. 01:26:09.880 --> 01:26:15.060 My other criteria for top emperors were basically those who did the job well, 01:26:16.280 --> 01:26:19.947 right? Not making, you know, these kinds of earth, you know, shattering 01:26:20.030 --> 01:26:23.640 decisions or, you know, world history changing decisions, but just 01:26:24.140 --> 01:26:27.997 who performed the role competently with 01:26:28.080 --> 01:26:33.180 results that impacted the lives of their subjects for the better. 01:26:33.420 --> 01:26:35.620 So those are the other criteria that I used. 01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:39.377 It's difficult to juggle these different criteria, right, in order to create a 01:26:39.460 --> 01:26:42.506 systematic list. And by the way, we, historians generally don't do these kinds 01:26:42.589 --> 01:26:45.077 of things. But you said it's fun. It is fun. 01:26:45.160 --> 01:26:45.637 - It was fun. It was fun. 01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:50.300 - And it allows you to talk about certain things that you might not otherwise do. 01:26:50.820 --> 01:26:53.170 So yeah, that's why Constantine was at the top. 01:26:53.520 --> 01:26:57.417 - So you mentioned Christianity. That was one other big component of his 01:26:57.500 --> 01:27:01.300 rule. What was the role of Christianity in, in Constantine's life, 01:27:02.020 --> 01:27:07.460 in the lives of the citizens of the new Roman Empire? 01:27:08.180 --> 01:27:12.680 - At this stage, Christianity doesn't have a role. It actually took the emperors... 01:27:13.520 --> 01:27:17.357 When the emperors took it on board, that is, they made it a part 01:27:17.440 --> 01:27:21.257 of the imperial system, then it began to acquire a role 01:27:21.340 --> 01:27:25.157 within the system. Previously, it had imagined itself as having its 01:27:25.240 --> 01:27:28.577 own history, like not necessarily part of the 01:27:28.660 --> 01:27:32.497 empire or affiliated with imperial power. But 01:27:32.580 --> 01:27:34.680 after Constantine, it does acquire a role. 01:27:34.880 --> 01:27:37.525 - And so actually, one way to ask that question, which is fascinating, 01:27:37.609 --> 01:27:42.780 'cause you said that there's like, there's Rome, and then there's like cultures like, 01:27:43.800 --> 01:27:50.380 or traditions like Christianity, or being Greek, that kind of thing. 01:27:51.360 --> 01:27:55.020 So, one of the ways to ask this question is does Christianity 01:27:55.140 --> 01:27:58.710 triumph over Rome, or did Rome capture Christianity? 01:27:58.800 --> 01:28:03.060 - Right. Yes. That's a— - Which is the mechanism? 01:28:04.080 --> 01:28:07.457 - I would lean more toward the second. In other words, that the religion was 01:28:07.540 --> 01:28:11.440 co-opted by the imperial system. Now, there are many areas in which 01:28:11.800 --> 01:28:13.590 that's not the case and where the opposite happens, 01:28:13.674 --> 01:28:15.717 so I'm not going to be absolute about it, 01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:18.650 but I think it's very important to recognize that because 01:28:19.080 --> 01:28:22.680 Christianity generates this narrative of triumph- 01:28:22.780 --> 01:28:25.480 ...right, which modern historians perpetuate, 01:28:26.340 --> 01:28:28.644 and it's framed in very particular ways. In other words, 01:28:28.728 --> 01:28:30.177 that Christianity triumphs over the 01:28:30.260 --> 01:28:35.320 ancient religions. Right? So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of 01:28:35.440 --> 01:28:39.357 that, and animal sacrifice is gone, and like, that's because Christianity 01:28:39.440 --> 01:28:42.525 triumphs, and that's a very narrow way of looking at it. In other words, 01:28:42.608 --> 01:28:45.758 you pick your enemy, and then you can defeat that enemy, right? 01:28:46.140 --> 01:28:48.465 But if you look in the other direction, there's, like, 01:28:48.548 --> 01:28:49.977 the Roman imperial state, and you 01:28:50.060 --> 01:28:53.680 cannot say that Christianity either triumphed over it or 01:28:53.840 --> 01:28:56.690 even tamed it or anything. It actually became part of it. 01:28:56.980 --> 01:29:00.577 in many ways that, you know, determined its history for 01:29:00.660 --> 01:29:02.560 centuries and, in fact, down to today. 01:29:03.240 --> 01:29:06.540 So this is very different, for example, from the history of Islam. 01:29:07.320 --> 01:29:11.310 So Islam comes into existence without a 01:29:11.480 --> 01:29:15.417 preexisting state to receive it and take it on board. It 01:29:15.500 --> 01:29:19.210 creates its own state, right? So the Muslim armies, 01:29:19.610 --> 01:29:23.580 they conquer this empire, and then they have to sort of govern it. 01:29:23.680 --> 01:29:25.848 They think according to whatever Islamic principles. 01:29:25.931 --> 01:29:28.760 The Quran doesn't say anything about running an empire. 01:29:29.000 --> 01:29:32.557 So that creates a completely different society, right, where, like, 01:29:32.640 --> 01:29:36.150 Islam is a, is really a primary kind of identity and, 01:29:36.640 --> 01:29:40.237 like, drives a lot of developments. But Christianity comes into 01:29:40.320 --> 01:29:43.980 existence within a very well-developed society and, and 01:29:44.080 --> 01:29:46.080 political system. Now, here's the thing. 01:29:46.440 --> 01:29:50.117 We don't know exactly how many Christians existed in the time of Constantine. 01:29:50.200 --> 01:29:54.057 Well, we speculate maybe 10% of the empire. That might be very 01:29:54.140 --> 01:29:57.677 high, right? But even if it's 10%, it's 01:29:57.760 --> 01:30:01.580 not a lot, and these are not, like, elites for the most part. Maybe 01:30:01.740 --> 01:30:05.440 middle, you know, what we loosely call middle class, 01:30:06.420 --> 01:30:09.270 a few elites, a few slaves, like this kind of thing. 01:30:10.060 --> 01:30:14.190 Mostly urban, and keeping in mind, most of the population is rural. 01:30:14.420 --> 01:30:18.197 Right? So pockets of concentrated, you know, 01:30:18.280 --> 01:30:21.777 Christian groups in cities. That's what we're talking about. Not terribly 01:30:21.860 --> 01:30:22.877 politically powerful. 01:30:22.960 --> 01:30:26.018 - So Constantine's conversion to Christianity and moving the empire towards 01:30:26.102 --> 01:30:30.167 Christianity is not something where it's a gigantic majority of the people- 01:30:30.250 --> 01:30:33.159 ... or it's a political convenience because it's the elites. 01:30:33.242 --> 01:30:34.197 It's something else. 01:30:34.280 --> 01:30:38.480 I mean, it's, I mean, a pretty revolutionary decision, I would say. 01:30:38.580 --> 01:30:42.097 - Exactly. Now, there used to be theories that Constantine did this for, like, 01:30:42.180 --> 01:30:45.562 pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he, like, wasn't a true Christian or anything, 01:30:45.645 --> 01:30:50.000 but there was some kind of political gain to be had here. But I have never 01:30:50.540 --> 01:30:54.020 read a convincing account of what exactly that political gain is. 01:30:54.900 --> 01:30:58.637 We now know that there are fewer Christians. They were not 01:30:58.720 --> 01:31:02.257 that influential. You can make an argument that bishops are a kind of 01:31:02.340 --> 01:31:06.220 convenient social influencers, you might say. Like, you can use those. 01:31:06.440 --> 01:31:08.340 They're not a threat to your position. 01:31:08.460 --> 01:31:11.157 Right? So a bishop is not gonna try to take the throne. 01:31:11.240 --> 01:31:15.057 So they're not dangerous political operatives in that way. But they 01:31:15.140 --> 01:31:18.297 do have some influence over sectors of society, and so that might be 01:31:18.380 --> 01:31:22.097 a... Okay, I see that, but I don't quite see the 01:31:22.180 --> 01:31:24.390 argument for, like, going full Christian, 01:31:25.320 --> 01:31:28.595 Just to get the support of some bishops, who actually pretty quickly turn out 01:31:28.678 --> 01:31:31.328 to be, some of them, more trouble than they're worth. 01:31:31.660 --> 01:31:35.400 Anyway, so I have not yet seen a convincing 01:31:35.660 --> 01:31:39.580 like, political argument for Constantine's decision, which means that you then 01:31:39.680 --> 01:31:43.277 fall back on a personal explanation that he did this 01:31:43.360 --> 01:31:47.080 because he was a believing Christian, right? And he came out, 01:31:47.360 --> 01:31:51.177 You know, in support of the religion that he held, and that's kind of 01:31:51.260 --> 01:31:54.340 where most scholars are today. Though, I gotta tell you, 01:31:55.340 --> 01:31:59.037 historians are very uncomfortable about personal choice, like explaining 01:31:59.120 --> 01:32:01.720 history in terms of these kinds of personal choices. 01:32:02.260 --> 01:32:05.960 Because Constantine's conversion is like, it's massive. It 01:32:06.060 --> 01:32:11.540 opens the door. It incentivizes so many people to also convert. 01:32:11.730 --> 01:32:15.557 'Cause Romans will generally do what their, you know, rulers 01:32:15.640 --> 01:32:19.437 will tell them. If we've mentioned Hadrian a few times 01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:23.240 Hadrian's, he had this lover, Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia, 01:32:23.820 --> 01:32:26.820 who died in an accident in Egypt, whatever, and Hadrian said 01:32:27.310 --> 01:32:31.010 Basically that Antinous should be regarded as a god throughout the empire. 01:32:31.850 --> 01:32:35.707 And he was. We have, like, more statues and busts of Antinous from all of 01:32:35.790 --> 01:32:39.640 these temples all over the empire than I think of anyone else except Hadrian. 01:32:39.910 --> 01:32:42.982 So yeah, if, if the emperor says, like, "This is a person who's a god now, 01:32:43.066 --> 01:32:45.407 you know, put statues of him everywhere," they will. 01:32:45.490 --> 01:32:49.387 And when Constantine comes out in favor of Christianity, you know, suddenly people 01:32:49.470 --> 01:32:53.647 discover that, oh, this is an interesting rite. It's got the support of the emperor. 01:32:53.730 --> 01:32:55.778 - So one of the things here, going to the Perplexity, 01:32:55.861 --> 01:33:00.690 Constantine's conversion to Christianity is usually dated to 312 AD, 01:33:01.410 --> 01:33:04.887 Linked to a visionary experience before the Battle of the Milvian 01:33:04.970 --> 01:33:11.672 Bridge. Do you believe that vision, that he had this religious experience before 01:33:11.756 --> 01:33:15.747 the Battle of the Milvian Bridge? Here it says, "But historians debate 01:33:15.830 --> 01:33:17.790 both its nature and its sincerity." 01:33:18.390 --> 01:33:20.227 - Well- - Do you believe the sincerity of that experience? 01:33:20.310 --> 01:33:21.917 - Before we even get to the sincerity- 01:33:22.000 --> 01:33:25.800 ... is the problem of the sources. This is reported by authors writing later 01:33:25.990 --> 01:33:28.740 in the aftermath of a victory when the emperor... Like, 01:33:29.090 --> 01:33:33.007 one of them had a dinner conversation with the emperor a few decades later, and he 01:33:33.090 --> 01:33:35.456 said, "Well, let me tell you about the Milvian Bridge." And it's like, okay, 01:33:35.540 --> 01:33:38.387 I'm not gonna believe that. I'm not gonna take that at face value, rather. 01:33:38.470 --> 01:33:42.327 It's a much more complicated... You know, this is how the emperor 01:33:42.410 --> 01:33:43.777 wants things to be remembered. 01:33:43.860 --> 01:33:47.527 That's different. Also, Constantine tended to have a lot of religious visions. 01:33:47.610 --> 01:33:51.507 He had had religious visions of Apollo before Christ, and we have 01:33:51.590 --> 01:33:54.484 sources that talk about that, too, that he went to this temple in Gaul, 01:33:54.567 --> 01:33:55.427 and Apollo appeared to 01:33:55.510 --> 01:33:59.121 him in the form of light. Okay, Constantine has a religious vision every 01:33:59.205 --> 01:34:03.240 time he kind of wants to shift policies. And his, like, 01:34:03.500 --> 01:34:06.850 profile. Like, when he wanted to break away from his other emperors 01:34:07.510 --> 01:34:10.917 who used to go for the, like, they went for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model. 01:34:11.000 --> 01:34:14.687 And he shifted to an Apollo model. This is a branding. This is emperors doing 01:34:14.770 --> 01:34:19.667 branding. - So we should say that, as you've described, Constantine is a 01:34:19.750 --> 01:34:21.510 pragmatist. He's very pragmatic. 01:34:22.370 --> 01:34:26.707 - Yeah. - But you're saying it's fair to believe, based on the 01:34:26.790 --> 01:34:31.830 evidence, that he actually converged towards being a Christian believer. 01:34:32.110 --> 01:34:35.997 - Yeah. It's very possible, in fact plausible, that he thought 01:34:36.080 --> 01:34:39.310 the Christian God had helped him in battle. And, 01:34:40.150 --> 01:34:44.167 you know, for someone like him, that's as good a reason as any to support that god. 01:34:44.250 --> 01:34:48.010 - But he was not, like, a hardcore Christian all the way through. 01:34:48.630 --> 01:34:52.507 He was a kind of a spiritual, religious kind of person. He 01:34:52.590 --> 01:34:59.590 thought about religions more generally and just converged towards Christianity as 01:35:00.090 --> 01:35:04.357 a good religion. He also had ideas about what a good religion is- 01:35:04.440 --> 01:35:08.587 ... and what a bad religion is, that kind of stuff. So he's thinking in this space. 01:35:08.670 --> 01:35:11.410 - He's tending not to be too explicit. 01:35:11.530 --> 01:35:15.447 Depending on the audience. So Constantine remains a pragmatist 01:35:15.530 --> 01:35:20.107 in the sense that he doesn't want to alienate too many of his subjects, right? 01:35:20.190 --> 01:35:20.887 - Mm-hmm. Fair. Mm-hmm. 01:35:20.970 --> 01:35:25.847 - And so he's sometimes a bit coy or elusive about what he's 01:35:25.930 --> 01:35:29.787 getting at. When he's talking to Christians, he will talk about Christ. He 01:35:29.870 --> 01:35:33.920 will mention Christ. When he's talking to everybody else in, like, a general law, 01:35:34.250 --> 01:35:38.187 he'll just refer to good religion. And it's like, maybe 01:35:38.270 --> 01:35:43.350 you know what I mean, right? But he's not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus. 01:35:43.510 --> 01:35:44.467 - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. 01:35:44.550 --> 01:35:49.890 - So even at the time when he's, like, supporting the church, like, 01:35:50.670 --> 01:35:54.447 basically institutionalizing the church as part of the imperial 01:35:54.530 --> 01:35:57.947 system, but he's also putting up statues of himself that look like 01:35:58.030 --> 01:36:01.847 Apollo in Constantinople, right? So the focal point of 01:36:01.930 --> 01:36:04.780 Constantine's Constantinople is the Forum of Constantine. 01:36:04.880 --> 01:36:08.707 And in the middle is this very tall column, and it has a colossal statue of 01:36:08.790 --> 01:36:12.487 Constantine on top, gilded, enormous 01:36:12.570 --> 01:36:16.527 thing. I don't know, like, eight meters tall or whatever. But it's a 01:36:16.610 --> 01:36:20.367 repurposed Apollo. It's even, it, like, visibly so. It's naked. It 01:36:20.450 --> 01:36:22.257 has the rays coming out of the- 01:36:22.340 --> 01:36:25.840 ... head, right? Right. And everybody knew it was an Apollo. So that's 01:36:25.930 --> 01:36:29.190 Constantine in the guise of his old patron god, Apollo. 01:36:30.090 --> 01:36:33.787 Still, but he's still Christian Constantine, so he's sending all of these 01:36:33.870 --> 01:36:34.787 different messages. 01:36:34.870 --> 01:36:38.467 - I mean, he likes being the god-like figure. I mean, that whole 01:36:38.550 --> 01:36:40.730 statue just is like, "I am the god." 01:36:41.190 --> 01:36:43.847 - Yeah. It's assimilating yourself to... Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:36:43.930 --> 01:36:46.388 - And I mean, a lot of the Romans, is it fair to say, 01:36:46.471 --> 01:36:48.147 kinda saw the emperor a little bit in that light? 01:36:48.230 --> 01:36:50.627 - No, yeah. Oh, yeah. They called him divine and- 01:36:50.710 --> 01:36:53.084 ... yeah. There's not a hard theology there, right? Like, 01:36:53.167 --> 01:36:56.067 if you pressed them on the actual theology, they wouldn't- 01:36:56.210 --> 01:37:00.047 ... they wouldn't say the emperor is a god. No. This is mushy. 01:37:00.130 --> 01:37:01.570 This gets very, very mushy. 01:37:01.690 --> 01:37:07.330 - But I mean, a lot of the Christians have a kinda humility before God. 01:37:07.950 --> 01:37:11.750 I think when you have an emperor that's god-like, it gets a little weird- 01:37:11.870 --> 01:37:15.387 - Yes. Yes -... in the way you talk about God. 01:37:15.470 --> 01:37:19.176 - It depends on the context. Like, there are contexts in which you are an emperor 01:37:19.260 --> 01:37:19.327 and 01:37:19.410 --> 01:37:23.287 you're proclaiming your majesty, and then there are more personal contexts where you 01:37:23.370 --> 01:37:27.247 might be more humble because, I don't know, you're being baptized or 01:37:27.330 --> 01:37:29.630 something. Like, those are different contexts. 01:37:29.810 --> 01:37:33.607 - So can you speak to the whole process of the conversion to Christianity, of the- 01:37:33.690 --> 01:37:37.587 ... propagation of Christianity throughout the empire and, and Constantine's role in 01:37:37.670 --> 01:37:41.927 that? - Constantine, or his successors as well, because this was a 01:37:42.010 --> 01:37:45.750 gradual process, and it takes a very long time. So let's, 01:37:46.410 --> 01:37:48.110 Let's put it into perspective. 01:37:49.430 --> 01:37:52.910 We probably can't talk about a majority Christian society 01:37:53.110 --> 01:37:56.997 until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th- 01:37:57.080 --> 01:38:00.410 ... mid-5th. We don't have data, obviously. 01:38:01.330 --> 01:38:04.910 And we can't talk about, like, a solidly Christian 01:38:05.010 --> 01:38:08.927 society until early 6th century. And by solidly, I mean maybe 01:38:09.010 --> 01:38:15.320 where the non-Christians are 10, 15%, right? So that's a long time. 01:38:15.430 --> 01:38:18.780 That's, like, five centuries after Jesus. That's half a millennium. 01:38:19.410 --> 01:38:24.750 So we're talking about a half a millennial process here. It's, it's very long. 01:38:25.010 --> 01:38:29.557 - But it's only a couple of centuries after Constantine. So it takes- 01:38:29.640 --> 01:38:34.450 ... about two centuries to really make the Roman Empire Christian 01:38:34.720 --> 01:38:38.567 - Yes. So very slow conversion, maybe, maybe up to 10% 01:38:38.650 --> 01:38:42.317 tops under Constantine. Then obviously larger and 01:38:42.400 --> 01:38:45.920 larger groups join the church, even if only nominally, right? 01:38:46.800 --> 01:38:50.617 Until you get to the sixth century when you're clearly talking about a, you 01:38:50.700 --> 01:38:53.200 know, mostly or overwhelmingly Christian society. 01:38:54.160 --> 01:38:56.410 A lot of this is just done through incentives 01:38:57.500 --> 01:39:01.337 and disincentives, right? So bishops are given 01:39:01.420 --> 01:39:05.270 funds with which to distribute, like, charity and 01:39:05.360 --> 01:39:09.017 help to communities in distress. They have lists of 01:39:09.100 --> 01:39:12.997 widows and whatever they support. Land is 01:39:13.080 --> 01:39:16.757 given to the church by the emperors or in wills so that they 01:39:16.840 --> 01:39:20.437 can engage in this kind of social policy. And then there are disincentives. So 01:39:20.520 --> 01:39:24.790 emperors pass laws that increasingly restrict the exercise of traditional 01:39:24.873 --> 01:39:28.757 religion. Like, you can't perform animal sacrifices, then you can't start doing 01:39:28.840 --> 01:39:32.717 these like tying ribbons to make wishes or, like, all of these 01:39:32.800 --> 01:39:35.950 things, like going out to sacred trees and doing this or that, 01:39:36.080 --> 01:39:39.957 because they say, "Oh, this is kind of nefarious business," or, like, magic or 01:39:40.040 --> 01:39:43.897 whatever it is. And then they just gradually start outlawing it more 01:39:43.980 --> 01:39:47.897 and more, putting restrictions on, like, if you're not a Christian, you can't hold 01:39:47.980 --> 01:39:51.780 these high offices or you can't... Your... There's problems with your wills. 01:39:52.080 --> 01:39:53.780 So they gradually do it like that. 01:39:54.620 --> 01:39:58.480 And this is how you... Yeah, this is... And it works. It works. 01:39:58.780 --> 01:40:02.597 - What explains the success of Christianity after Constantine? 01:40:02.680 --> 01:40:08.060 Why was it, as a technology, so successful at spreading throughout the empire? 01:40:08.880 --> 01:40:12.320 - Christianity developed in a number of 01:40:12.920 --> 01:40:16.620 ways. So it acquired a certain number of forms that were capable 01:40:16.760 --> 01:40:20.280 of appealing to different constituencies. 01:40:20.380 --> 01:40:25.280 In other words, there was an intellectual side to it, 01:40:26.100 --> 01:40:28.960 The sort of theology, the almost 01:40:29.220 --> 01:40:33.097 quasi-philosophical or engagement with philosophical schools that could 01:40:33.180 --> 01:40:37.220 draw in, let's say, intellectuals. There is a, 01:40:38.060 --> 01:40:42.037 a public ceremony and ritual aspect where you can organize 01:40:42.120 --> 01:40:45.777 communities and cities to have processions or, 01:40:45.860 --> 01:40:49.717 like, have ho- all these festivals that take the place of the ancient 01:40:49.800 --> 01:40:54.060 ones. You have a kind of 01:40:54.980 --> 01:40:58.760 not, it's not secretive, but it's kind of this initiatory aspect 01:40:59.180 --> 01:41:02.920 where there's this baptism and you learn a sort of creed, 01:41:03.120 --> 01:41:06.777 and you're initiated into the religion with the prospect of a 01:41:06.860 --> 01:41:10.677 personal afterlife, right? And that appeals to other kinds 01:41:10.760 --> 01:41:14.740 of people. There's also ways in which it 01:41:15.080 --> 01:41:18.380 it integrated itself into the court and the language of power. 01:41:19.080 --> 01:41:22.817 Also in the army, right? Soldiers now swear an oath to the 01:41:22.900 --> 01:41:26.517 Trinity, right? So it takes all of these different forms that 01:41:26.600 --> 01:41:30.200 enable it to position itself, you know, 01:41:30.340 --> 01:41:34.080 here and there and, you know, in the streets, in the court, in the armies, 01:41:34.620 --> 01:41:38.557 in the churches, in texts, in books. And so 01:41:38.640 --> 01:41:43.960 it has this kind of manifold diversity, right, that makes it very adaptable. 01:41:44.560 --> 01:41:46.610 - So one of the things you mentioned that 01:41:47.480 --> 01:41:51.137 Constantine did not anticipate, did not realize that Christianity 01:41:51.220 --> 01:41:53.270 creates divisions between various groups. 01:41:53.420 --> 01:41:57.220 - So in part, this happens when you have, 01:41:57.640 --> 01:42:01.937 Religions that make exclusive claims, right? Like, my beliefs are true- 01:42:02.020 --> 01:42:07.440 ... and yours are by definition false. Not, not just wrong, but false and 01:42:07.540 --> 01:42:10.787 even kinda evil. Like maybe-... Satan put them in your mind to- 01:42:10.870 --> 01:42:15.080 ... lead you astray, right? And this is inherently divisive. Like, it is. 01:42:15.940 --> 01:42:18.360 So there's this paradox where 01:42:19.500 --> 01:42:23.220 Christianity, in contrast to, say, the ancient religions, is both 01:42:23.420 --> 01:42:30.217 far more polarizing but also far more powerful as a unifying force 01:42:30.300 --> 01:42:34.037 at the same time, right? So ancient religions tended not to 01:42:34.120 --> 01:42:38.060 produce this kind of conflict or identities, right, 01:42:38.180 --> 01:42:41.737 or, or wars or these kinds of things. And they could under certain 01:42:41.820 --> 01:42:44.920 circumstances, but for the most part, they were not 01:42:45.540 --> 01:42:49.497 drivers of history in this kind of way. But when you have exclusive claims, then 01:42:49.580 --> 01:42:52.657 suddenly these very communities of, that are sort of 01:42:52.740 --> 01:42:57.070 consolidated and have this very strong identity, 01:42:57.900 --> 01:43:02.310 But you also alienate other groups-... that you then are in conflict with. 01:43:03.140 --> 01:43:06.990 So this is why I for one can't come down on whether, 01:43:07.360 --> 01:43:11.097 you know, Christianity is more of a unifying force or a divisive force in the 01:43:11.180 --> 01:43:13.930 history of the Eastern Empire, because it's, it's both. 01:43:14.360 --> 01:43:18.350 - And also trying to figure out whether the unifying or the divisive 01:43:19.040 --> 01:43:21.437 aspects are a feature or a bug. 01:43:21.520 --> 01:43:25.077 Maybe some of the divisive elements is a way for society 01:43:25.160 --> 01:43:30.740 internally to try to, much like the civil wars, to try to figure itself out. 01:43:31.560 --> 01:43:35.437 - Yes. - So sometimes tension and conflict is a good mechanism for figuring out what 01:43:35.520 --> 01:43:38.767 do the people want. - Or what's the truth, right? 01:43:38.850 --> 01:43:43.337 - Or what's the truth. - Yeah. So the story that it likes to tell itself is that 01:43:43.420 --> 01:43:46.837 there's this, like, this one original truth, and the 01:43:46.920 --> 01:43:50.877 hardcore of true believers is defending that truth at every moment against 01:43:50.960 --> 01:43:52.787 all of these evil heretics who are coming in- 01:43:52.870 --> 01:43:56.657 ... and trying to corrupt it. In reality, what happens is that this truth is 01:43:56.740 --> 01:44:00.740 something that's evolving in the course of the controversies. 01:44:01.780 --> 01:44:05.417 And, like, often they don't know that they believed 01:44:05.500 --> 01:44:09.257 that until in retrospect, once they've had the fight and the winner 01:44:09.340 --> 01:44:13.257 has this position, oh, now that turns out to have been the position we 01:44:13.340 --> 01:44:17.277 always held, right? And this happens again and again and again. You know, a lot 01:44:17.360 --> 01:44:19.360 of the time, these Christian theologians 01:44:20.060 --> 01:44:23.403 who get into so much trouble and get branded as heretics and sometimes get sent 01:44:23.487 --> 01:44:26.500 into exile, they didn't mean any harm. 01:44:27.370 --> 01:44:31.140 They often just were stating what they thought everybody believed. 01:44:31.280 --> 01:44:34.072 And then when they blurt it out, someone is like, off in Alexandria, 01:44:34.156 --> 01:44:37.024 is like, "What? That's heresy." And then now you're, now you're in trouble. 01:44:37.107 --> 01:44:38.697 Now you're getting into this fight, and you 01:44:38.780 --> 01:44:42.537 might win, you might lose. But, like, a lot of them were kind of sort of 01:44:42.620 --> 01:44:46.457 well-intentioned in that way, or they had no intention of starting a fight. But 01:44:46.540 --> 01:44:49.040 there's always someone who wants to start a fight. 01:44:49.760 --> 01:44:53.440 - Yeah, I mean, sometimes the fights are extremely intense 01:44:53.560 --> 01:44:57.080 over things that I could see on the surface or, like, 01:44:57.220 --> 01:45:00.880 iconography. It's like, it seems like a very subtle- 01:45:00.980 --> 01:45:04.380 ...debate, like almost academic. And then 01:45:04.840 --> 01:45:08.520 a large number of people don't see it as academic. They, 01:45:09.060 --> 01:45:11.917 they do see it like the devil put ideas in your head that are- 01:45:12.000 --> 01:45:16.408 ...completely wrong, and it's, it's fascinating how that kind of division can 01:45:16.492 --> 01:45:17.592 emerge. Uh, I mean, I— 01:45:18.380 --> 01:45:21.960 The impossible question, and I apologize for asking it, but maybe just 01:45:22.100 --> 01:45:27.557 worthwhile to try to think about it is, on the grand scale of 01:45:27.640 --> 01:45:30.960 centuries of the East Roman Empire, is religion 01:45:32.240 --> 01:45:35.720 a constructive or a destructive force 01:45:36.260 --> 01:45:40.180 for the empire? Did it help it flourish, or did it hold it back? 01:45:41.240 --> 01:45:44.867 - This society identified itself increasingly 01:45:44.950 --> 01:45:49.347 with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy just means correct belief. I mean— 01:45:49.430 --> 01:45:52.930 ...like every religion ultimately thinks it's orthodox, right? That's— 01:45:53.400 --> 01:45:56.720 But that's the conventional name, right? Orthodoxy today might be called Greek 01:45:56.804 --> 01:46:03.000 Orthodoxy. Um, and I mean, it's such an essential part of the culture. 01:46:03.680 --> 01:46:07.617 It really is. I can't think of the two of them inde... I mean, 01:46:07.700 --> 01:46:11.620 I try to because, as a historian, I have to test the models, 01:46:11.820 --> 01:46:15.077 you know, and try to see these things as independent of each other. 01:46:15.160 --> 01:46:18.657 But ultimately, it's very difficult to 01:46:18.740 --> 01:46:22.577 disentangle them, and I would say that to the degree that 01:46:22.660 --> 01:46:25.160 this is a successful society historically, 01:46:26.040 --> 01:46:29.860 that its religion definitely contributed to that and played a role in it. 01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:33.777 Not without cost, right? There are, it mattered to 01:46:33.860 --> 01:46:38.557 them. They valued it, but things that matter to you have a cost. 01:46:38.640 --> 01:46:42.740 And they paid that price. They were willing to pay that price for it. 01:46:43.540 --> 01:46:49.080 For example, at the very end, they had to choose between Catholicism, Western rule, 01:46:49.880 --> 01:46:53.520 where they essentially have to compromise on their faith, or 01:46:54.000 --> 01:46:58.640 rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they would not have to compromise their faith. 01:46:59.640 --> 01:47:03.040 And some of them were explicit that they were preferring option B, 01:47:03.780 --> 01:47:09.660 because the Turks will at least respect our identity. Like, that's a cost. 01:47:09.940 --> 01:47:12.920 - Yeah. But there's other layers, like taxation and- 01:47:13.780 --> 01:47:15.477 ...the, the functions of government— 01:47:15.560 --> 01:47:19.510 ... that are connected to religion to the degree it interacts with the 01:47:19.600 --> 01:47:23.240 tax system. But it feels like that's the engine 01:47:23.700 --> 01:47:27.080 of the society and religion is more like the cultural layer. 01:47:27.320 --> 01:47:31.040 - Yeah. So this is why I said that I try 01:47:31.440 --> 01:47:35.137 in thinking of the models that we use to understand the 01:47:35.220 --> 01:47:38.537 society, not to assume that religion is 01:47:38.620 --> 01:47:42.317 everywhere and for everything. Now, I have colleagues who do 01:47:42.400 --> 01:47:46.297 that, and I would disagree with them about this, but you're exactly right. There are 01:47:46.380 --> 01:47:50.617 elements of this society that I like to see as their own thing. 01:47:50.700 --> 01:47:55.240 Like the Roman identity, for example. It's not the same as Orthodoxy. 01:47:56.040 --> 01:47:59.877 But also the operations of the state. Those are 01:47:59.960 --> 01:48:03.457 very pragmatic things, and you see them 01:48:03.540 --> 01:48:06.757 intersect with religion in, largely in areas of 01:48:06.840 --> 01:48:10.517 terminology or the vocabulary that they use or, you know, like at the 01:48:10.600 --> 01:48:13.200 top, but not at their actual functioning. 01:48:14.060 --> 01:48:17.977 So in my field, I'm a historian who's tried 01:48:18.060 --> 01:48:21.997 to promote other aspects of the culture as having 01:48:22.080 --> 01:48:27.240 a kind of integrity of their own and not to subsume them all within Orthodoxy. 01:48:28.020 --> 01:48:31.870 - So, I mean, again, an impossible way of asking the 01:48:31.960 --> 01:48:37.000 same question. If you asked a Roman, a million Romans across 01:48:38.220 --> 01:48:44.010 a thousand years, "Are you a Roman or a Christian?" 01:48:44.770 --> 01:48:45.727 What would be the answer for that? 01:48:45.810 --> 01:48:47.620 - Oh, both. Oh, absolutely. 01:48:47.720 --> 01:48:49.677 - No, you don't get to say both. You're not allowed to do that. 01:48:49.760 --> 01:48:52.137 - Why not? It's the- - Well, you're- - It's the true answer. 01:48:52.220 --> 01:48:55.020 - Okay. So you're saying they're really tied together. 01:48:55.840 --> 01:48:59.320 - Well, they overlap. But if you were to... 01:48:59.800 --> 01:49:03.717 And this might be a somewhat more subtle conversation than most of 01:49:03.800 --> 01:49:07.717 them would want to have, but if you were to say, "Is Roman and Christian the 01:49:07.800 --> 01:49:11.417 same thing to you?" If they thought about it for a little while, 01:49:11.500 --> 01:49:18.097 they'd quickly be able to say no. Because there were, I mean, just logically, there 01:49:18.180 --> 01:49:20.080 were Christians who were not Romans. 01:49:20.660 --> 01:49:24.480 The Bulgarians or the Rus or, you know, whoever. 01:49:24.660 --> 01:49:28.317 There were lots of Christians who were not Roman, and they did not regard them as 01:49:28.400 --> 01:49:32.200 Roman just because they were Christian. Conversely, they knew perfectly well 01:49:32.660 --> 01:49:34.617 that there had been Romans who were not Christians, 01:49:34.700 --> 01:49:36.177 and they knew this how? Because in the 01:49:36.260 --> 01:49:39.677 churches like almost every week, they celebrated 01:49:39.760 --> 01:49:43.000 martyrs who had been killed by the Roman emperors in the past. 01:49:43.550 --> 01:49:47.277 And so it was, like, the performance of violence by 01:49:47.360 --> 01:49:50.201 Roman emperors against Christians was something they remember. 01:49:50.284 --> 01:49:55.300 They knew perfectly well. So those two things did not overlap perfectly. 01:49:55.820 --> 01:49:59.617 And there were some contexts in which you would be more Roman, and there were 01:49:59.700 --> 01:50:02.250 some contexts in which you would be more Christian. 01:50:02.480 --> 01:50:06.330 And you find characters who, and I love to do this. I find characters who, 01:50:07.540 --> 01:50:11.217 As some sources say we didn't pay too much attention to Christian 01:50:11.300 --> 01:50:15.177 things. Like, they were just politicians. They were just doing their work. And then 01:50:15.260 --> 01:50:19.000 you find characters who, like, devote themselves. They go all 01:50:19.120 --> 01:50:22.977 in on Orthodoxy and, like, monasticism and they just don't care about 01:50:23.060 --> 01:50:24.967 the Roman stuff at all. 01:50:25.050 --> 01:50:28.837 And that is, in fact, part of the reason why I like this society, is because 01:50:28.920 --> 01:50:30.872 it has these kinds of options for people to choose. 01:50:30.955 --> 01:50:32.917 And there's another one. There's the Greek stuff, 01:50:33.000 --> 01:50:35.747 too, because their language is Greek, their literature is Greek, 01:50:35.830 --> 01:50:40.110 and so there are people in the society who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right? 01:50:40.700 --> 01:50:44.467 And I see this society as this kind of laboratory of 01:50:44.550 --> 01:50:47.907 these three elements coexisting in these fascinating 01:50:47.990 --> 01:50:51.567 combinations. Usually it's combinations, right? But 01:50:51.650 --> 01:50:55.607 sometimes you'll find people who are like, kinda try to be purists in one way or 01:50:55.690 --> 01:50:59.607 another. And it's the only society in history in 01:50:59.690 --> 01:51:03.223 which you can do this, 'cause it's the only society that's Roman and Christian 01:51:03.306 --> 01:51:05.390 and Greek. But in different ways, right? 01:51:06.290 --> 01:51:08.322 - Yeah, unfortunately, I think it's tempting, 01:51:08.405 --> 01:51:10.155 but it's probably impossible to say 01:51:10.450 --> 01:51:13.810 if we remove the taxation system, would the, would Roman Empire 01:51:13.910 --> 01:51:17.807 be more or less successful? If we removed religion, would it be more or 01:51:17.890 --> 01:51:23.130 less successful? - Right. - If we removed, uh, 01:51:24.090 --> 01:51:26.174 Greek and kept it Latin all the way through, 01:51:26.257 --> 01:51:28.057 would it be more or less successful? 01:51:28.410 --> 01:51:32.110 It's probably impossible to do this kind of analysis 'cause they're all so 01:51:32.750 --> 01:51:36.814 deeply integrated. - And fundamentally, it also wouldn't be what it was. 01:51:36.898 --> 01:51:38.750 It would be something different. 01:51:39.170 --> 01:51:43.047 - But there is a big temptation, and this is at the core of your work, and to 01:51:43.130 --> 01:51:47.810 understand why did the East Roman Empire last as long as it did. 01:51:48.170 --> 01:51:51.170 And why did the broader Roman Empire last as long as it did? 01:51:51.310 --> 01:51:57.327 - Yeah. - 'Cause it's, it is one of, if not the most successful empires in terms 01:51:57.410 --> 01:52:02.070 of duration and stability in a very dense part of the world. 01:52:02.250 --> 01:52:05.710 - That's actually like my next project. I'm starting to write a book 01:52:06.310 --> 01:52:11.210 trying to explain just kind of from an analytical standpoint why. 01:52:11.730 --> 01:52:13.367 - How did it last so long? - Yeah. 01:52:13.450 --> 01:52:15.400 - A lot of your work kinda hints at it. 01:52:15.550 --> 01:52:16.487 - Yeah. - It's here and there. 01:52:16.570 --> 01:52:19.449 But you're trying to do more, more systematic. So, 01:52:19.532 --> 01:52:21.570 and we'll keep hinting at it. - Yes. 01:52:22.010 --> 01:52:25.830 - But to put a bow tie on Constantinople, it went from a 01:52:25.970 --> 01:52:29.710 very low population of maybe 25,000 people 01:52:30.250 --> 01:52:37.130 to 500,000 people in just two centuries. So can you explain how that happened? 01:52:37.910 --> 01:52:41.807 - Well, it didn't happen through just demographic growth 01:52:41.890 --> 01:52:45.287 and reproduction in the city itself. That rate of growth is 01:52:45.370 --> 01:52:49.370 impossible for an ancient city. So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that's 01:52:50.230 --> 01:52:53.780 possibly what the ancient city of Byzantium had- 01:52:53.990 --> 01:52:56.273 ... when Constantine decided to found Constantinople, 01:52:56.357 --> 01:52:57.787 and it grew to a city of a half a 01:52:57.870 --> 01:53:01.220 million in two centuries. That can only have been done in one way, 01:53:02.230 --> 01:53:05.109 and that is immigration from the provinces. 01:53:05.192 --> 01:53:07.810 So people must have been moving there, 01:53:08.770 --> 01:53:10.830 In large numbers, 01:53:12.870 --> 01:53:16.787 Which is a movement that we can't see very clearly in the sources, but 01:53:16.870 --> 01:53:20.290 we have to infer it and then try to explain it. So, 01:53:21.130 --> 01:53:27.790 Also there's another factor, which is that ancient cities we now know or suspect are 01:53:28.810 --> 01:53:32.647 what some historians call death traps. In other words, the density 01:53:32.730 --> 01:53:38.290 of disease is such that ancient cities probably are losing something like 01:53:38.710 --> 01:53:42.370 1, 2, possibly 3% of their population per year. 01:53:43.610 --> 01:53:49.020 So just in order to stay with a stable population, they have to import people. 01:53:49.190 --> 01:53:53.630 Right? Now, they're not like 17th century London. They're not that bad. 01:53:53.770 --> 01:53:56.530 - Do diseases and plagues seem to be prevalent? 01:53:56.790 --> 01:54:00.587 - Oh, yeah. Now, you know, Roman cities have some corrections 01:54:00.670 --> 01:54:04.059 for these sorts of things, like the way they distribute the water through 01:54:04.142 --> 01:54:08.220 the city. Anyway, they, they weren't as bad as they could've been, 01:54:08.770 --> 01:54:12.647 but there's that. So not only to keep the population steady, but to 01:54:12.730 --> 01:54:16.567 expand it so dramatically means that a lot of people are coming in 01:54:16.650 --> 01:54:20.567 from the provinces, mostly the Greek-speaking provinces. So 01:54:20.650 --> 01:54:24.347 you know, Greece, Asia Minor, and some of the major cities in the 01:54:24.430 --> 01:54:28.267 East that are Greek speaking. And I start to wonder 01:54:28.350 --> 01:54:32.670 like, well, how did this happen? Like, who are these people, for one thing? 01:54:33.550 --> 01:54:37.387 And then I did some simple calculations. So I mentioned earlier that we 01:54:37.470 --> 01:54:40.120 have something like two and a half thousand senators- 01:54:40.290 --> 01:54:43.450 ... Who are required initially to reside in Constantinople. 01:54:44.130 --> 01:54:46.650 Well, senators don't live in bachelor pads. 01:54:47.730 --> 01:54:51.627 Senators have manners. They have household staff, right? In Rome 01:54:51.710 --> 01:54:55.607 at the time, there's a calculation that a senatorial household 01:54:55.690 --> 01:55:00.470 was something like 100 people, right? Just servants, slaves, 01:55:01.650 --> 01:55:04.830 dancing girls, cooks, barbers, whatever, right? 01:55:05.610 --> 01:55:09.487 So let's assume sort of conservatively that in Constantinople it's 01:55:09.570 --> 01:55:13.410 only 30 people, which it might be low, right? So if you do the math, 01:55:13.550 --> 01:55:17.700 you're starting to get something like, I mean, closer to 100,000 people, 01:55:18.730 --> 01:55:21.970 right? And that's just by bringing in senators. 01:55:22.350 --> 01:55:27.970 Right? They come with people. So I think this was the nucleus 01:55:29.010 --> 01:55:32.527 of the population. Now then Constantine also makes 01:55:32.610 --> 01:55:39.607 provision for possibly up to like 200,000 people to receive the grain dole, the 01:55:39.690 --> 01:55:43.627 bread. So that would've incentivized even 01:55:43.710 --> 01:55:47.690 more people to travel there because there are- - So you get free bread. 01:55:47.890 --> 01:55:51.047 - Yes. And you can't live on that alone, but it is, it's something. 01:55:51.130 --> 01:55:55.747 - Incentive. Is it true that he diverted resources from Rome to Constantinople? 01:55:55.830 --> 01:55:59.050 - Absolutely. Oh, yeah. That grain, that's coming from Egypt. 01:55:59.590 --> 01:56:05.507 So New Rome is literally stealing food from the mouth of Old Rome. 01:56:05.590 --> 01:56:09.347 Now, Old Rome doesn't starve because they, they divert other, like from North 01:56:09.430 --> 01:56:11.607 Africa and Sicily, you can feed Rome, right? 01:56:11.690 --> 01:56:15.150 - But it sends a strong signal to the people living in Old Rome 01:56:15.390 --> 01:56:17.470 that, long term, we should probably move. 01:56:18.330 --> 01:56:21.830 - Some people do move. So we know of some senators who move from Rome. 01:56:22.590 --> 01:56:26.407 It sends a signal about the priorities of the state, like they're investing much 01:56:26.490 --> 01:56:31.030 more in the East. And that the East would be regarded as an equal parallel 01:56:31.330 --> 01:56:33.530 Roman, you know, world. Yeah. 01:56:33.830 --> 01:56:38.570 - As we talk about diverting resources, slowly 01:56:39.410 --> 01:56:46.410 the West declines and collapses in 476 AD. So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD, 01:56:51.180 --> 01:56:54.840 and in 476 AD, the last Western emperor is deposed, 01:56:55.000 --> 01:56:58.780 marking the end of the Western Roman Empire. 01:56:59.360 --> 01:57:03.160 High-level question: What is the reason for that decline 01:57:03.320 --> 01:57:06.957 and the collapse of the Western Roman Empire? So, 01:57:07.040 --> 01:57:10.860 nonstop civil wars, as we've talked about, weak emperors. 01:57:11.680 --> 01:57:16.680 There's an economic money crisis, so shrinking tax base, 01:57:17.600 --> 01:57:21.180 rising army costs. There was a loss of key 01:57:21.300 --> 01:57:26.540 provinces, especially in North Africa. Reliance on contracted barbarian troops 01:57:27.420 --> 01:57:30.527 as they immigrated more and more into— 01:57:30.610 --> 01:57:33.960 ...the Western Roman Empire. Cascading invasions, 01:57:34.100 --> 01:57:41.100 migrations amplified by Hun pressure, and then the East-West split. The richer 01:57:42.140 --> 01:57:47.560 East survives, the West can't stabilize under—...that split. 01:57:48.370 --> 01:57:52.297 - Yeah. The crux of the matter is that barbarian armies, so armies from 01:57:52.380 --> 01:57:56.207 outside the empire, put increasing pressure on it during 01:57:56.290 --> 01:57:59.827 the fifth century. And for whatever reason, 01:57:59.910 --> 01:58:03.837 when the Roman state failed to sort of suppress one of 01:58:03.920 --> 01:58:07.417 them and, say, settled them here or allowed them to have here 01:58:07.500 --> 01:58:11.357 or couldn't stop them and they took over a province, like the Vandals did in 01:58:11.440 --> 01:58:16.997 North Africa—...this created this kind of vicious cycle because then the Roman 01:58:17.080 --> 01:58:20.917 state lost access to the resources from those provinces, that 01:58:21.000 --> 01:58:23.850 is the taxes, and without those resources, they couldn't, 01:58:24.420 --> 01:58:28.050 you know, maintain, mobilize, pay for their armies. 01:58:28.380 --> 01:58:32.317 Then they had fewer armies to handle the next wave of barbarians that 01:58:32.400 --> 01:58:36.277 came in. The previous barbarians who settled kind of declared their kind 01:58:36.360 --> 01:58:40.360 of independence. They also could not be put down, and so this created a vicious, 01:58:40.460 --> 01:58:42.360 cycle that just continued in that way. 01:58:43.000 --> 01:58:46.840 It's not rocket science, actually. I mean, you can see it playing out. 01:58:47.360 --> 01:58:51.200 Yeah. Now, who these groups are, where they came from, why did they 01:58:51.340 --> 01:58:54.060 cross, that, those are different questions, right? 01:58:54.980 --> 01:58:58.800 But from the Roman standpoint, that's how it was experienced. These are 01:58:58.900 --> 01:59:05.900 armies that can defeat a Roman field army- right, in battle. And sometimes they do. 01:59:07.540 --> 01:59:09.861 And they then settle and take over territories, 01:59:09.944 --> 01:59:11.497 and then you lose the revenues, 01:59:11.580 --> 01:59:15.017 and so you can't recruit your own armies. And so, anyway, that's the kind of 01:59:15.100 --> 01:59:17.480 cycle. The East tried to help. 01:59:18.720 --> 01:59:22.175 Occasionally, they would send forces, but they were also subject to some of the same 01:59:22.259 --> 01:59:26.917 pressures. Because remember, the Goths cross the Danube for the first 01:59:27.000 --> 01:59:30.637 time in a major way in 376. Then you have the Battle of 01:59:30.720 --> 01:59:34.657 Adrianople a couple years later, where, like, one and a half field armies is just 01:59:34.740 --> 01:59:37.919 annihilated, and the Emperor Valens dies, and the Goths are just, like, 01:59:38.003 --> 01:59:44.450 kind of loose in the Balkans. And there was then a long war with them, four years. 01:59:44.560 --> 01:59:48.497 It results in a kind of truce where neither side 01:59:48.580 --> 01:59:52.117 wins, and the Romans, for the first time, accept the presence of 01:59:52.200 --> 01:59:56.320 this quasi-independent Gothic army in the territory of the empire. 01:59:57.200 --> 02:00:01.037 This is unprecedented, as I said, and it creates a lot of 02:00:01.120 --> 02:00:05.057 tensions and dysfunctions. Okay, so why does 02:00:05.140 --> 02:00:08.257 the East survive and the West does not, right? 02:00:08.340 --> 02:00:12.240 There's... And so the-- Lots of reasons that we can give here, but one of them 02:00:12.660 --> 02:00:16.060 is the geography that we were talking about earlier. In other words, 02:00:16.600 --> 02:00:20.420 the, without a fleet, which they don't have, the Goths can't cross 02:00:20.520 --> 02:00:27.137 over from Thrace or the western Balkans to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the 02:00:27.220 --> 02:00:31.157 more prosperous provinces. So they're stuck in the Balkans. 02:00:31.240 --> 02:00:34.694 They're gradually pushed kind of in toward the western Balkans, which is, like, 02:00:34.777 --> 02:00:38.027 the worst part you, you know, at the time, like, you wanna be in. 02:00:38.600 --> 02:00:42.840 And eventually, they just decide, "Well, you know, it's kinda nicer in Naples." 02:00:44.120 --> 02:00:45.670 And so they go to Italy, right? 02:00:46.320 --> 02:00:49.420 Just because there's just a lot more resources there for them. 02:00:50.120 --> 02:00:53.800 And that's one way that the East just kind of manages to... 02:00:54.380 --> 02:00:56.380 It doesn't do this deliberately, but it, 02:00:56.880 --> 02:01:00.480 the geography kind of pushes these invaders to the West. 02:01:00.880 --> 02:01:06.000 - So that's one. So geography is, some of it's sort of the luck of geography and- 02:01:06.680 --> 02:01:09.560 ... both of the invaders and the geography of the empire. 02:01:09.740 --> 02:01:15.380 - Yeah. - But, you know, the East had a lot of invaders since- 02:01:15.800 --> 02:01:19.840 ... and was able to still barely at times- 02:01:19.960 --> 02:01:23.880 ... survive the invaders, so... And some of that could be luck. Some of it 02:01:24.120 --> 02:01:27.837 could be about the nature of the invaders and the, the 02:01:27.920 --> 02:01:30.720 effectiveness of their military, all that kind of stuff. 02:01:30.820 --> 02:01:33.429 - By the way, it worked in the other direction, too. So if you have, 02:01:33.512 --> 02:01:36.562 like, Persians or Arabs coming into Asia Minor from the East, 02:01:37.240 --> 02:01:40.090 they usually can't cross over into your Balkan provinces. 02:01:40.500 --> 02:01:44.077 - Mm-hmm. Right. - So you can fall back on one side or the other side. 02:01:44.160 --> 02:01:48.110 They... If you fortified Constantinople so that it's an impregnable bunker, 02:01:48.720 --> 02:01:52.377 which it was, right? So you're holding your command center in 02:01:52.460 --> 02:01:56.397 Constantinople. You can alternate between your European or your Asian 02:01:56.480 --> 02:01:58.248 provinces, depending on where the trouble is. 02:01:58.332 --> 02:02:00.017 You can call in reinforcements from either 02:02:00.100 --> 02:02:04.007 side. So the East does have that kind of advantage. This is not the reason 02:02:04.090 --> 02:02:07.990 why it survives for as long as it does, though it is a reason. You know, also, 02:02:08.260 --> 02:02:12.030 they acquire flamethrowers at some point, which-... those help, too. 02:02:12.300 --> 02:02:16.217 Um, right? Ultimately, I think it's the decision made by local communities 02:02:16.300 --> 02:02:19.777 to stick with the Roman state, like, ultimately. Like, they're 02:02:19.860 --> 02:02:24.060 not going to actively side with invaders. 02:02:25.120 --> 02:02:28.897 And when the trouble passes, they restore ties with Constantinople 02:02:28.980 --> 02:02:31.800 immediately. Like, this is their natural political home. 02:02:32.680 --> 02:02:35.500 And, and that's the question that I'm really trying to answer, like, 02:02:35.583 --> 02:02:36.633 why does that happen? 02:02:36.960 --> 02:02:40.817 - You know, we should say, just like we've articulated multiple times, that it, the 02:02:40.900 --> 02:02:42.340 Roman Empire survives- 02:02:43.810 --> 02:02:48.509 So it's not like the Roman Empire collapsed and another Byzantine Empire 02:02:48.592 --> 02:02:53.087 was born. Really, there is a shift that happens, and part of that 02:02:53.170 --> 02:02:54.950 shift is because of Constantine, 02:02:55.870 --> 02:02:59.387 right? It's not just about where the capital is, but I'm sure that 02:02:59.470 --> 02:03:04.690 there's just a general move towards that direction from the West to the East. 02:03:05.170 --> 02:03:05.347 - Yeah, yeah. 02:03:05.430 --> 02:03:10.443 - And, and that in many ways, you know, weak emperors and the West, 02:03:10.527 --> 02:03:11.820 the weak leaders, 02:03:12.890 --> 02:03:16.760 The structure of government, all these kinds of elements put together- 02:03:16.870 --> 02:03:20.270 ... maybe demographic shifts and declines that have to do 02:03:20.410 --> 02:03:24.090 with the fact that the center of the empire has moved. 02:03:24.730 --> 02:03:25.507 - That's right. 02:03:25.590 --> 02:03:30.847 - And so ultimately-... it's not that the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is 02:03:30.930 --> 02:03:34.757 that the center of the Roman Empire shifted. 02:03:34.840 --> 02:03:38.110 And because of that, the historic West collapsed. 02:03:38.430 --> 02:03:43.053 - It's quite striking. So for example, already by, 02:03:43.136 --> 02:03:46.387 like in the 430s, Constantinople is 02:03:46.470 --> 02:03:50.387 basically codifying Roman law for the West. So Roman 02:03:50.470 --> 02:03:54.147 law in Latin is codified in Constantinople, and then sent 02:03:54.230 --> 02:03:56.380 to the West as, "Oh, here's your law code." 02:03:57.010 --> 02:04:00.860 And this is in the 430s, so after the alleged division between the two, which 02:04:00.950 --> 02:04:04.680 like I said, is kind of loose. It's not hard and fast. In the 02:04:04.810 --> 02:04:09.434 6th century, it is the East that reconquers part of the West under 02:04:09.517 --> 02:04:10.807 Justinian. - Mm-hmm. 02:04:10.890 --> 02:04:14.707 - And not only that, he also recodifies Roman law on a much bigger 02:04:14.790 --> 02:04:18.450 scale, and then that law becomes Western 02:04:18.550 --> 02:04:22.407 law. So in a certain sense, Roman law as we know 02:04:22.490 --> 02:04:26.250 it comes from Constantinople. It doesn't come from ancient Rome. I mean, 02:04:26.410 --> 02:04:29.483 ultimately it comes from ancient Rome, but we don't have those versions of it. 02:04:29.567 --> 02:04:34.067 We have the East Roman versions of it. It is East 02:04:34.150 --> 02:04:37.787 Rome that reconquers Rome. This is a funny inversion, you know, 02:04:37.870 --> 02:04:41.727 because Constantinople is situated in a province, Thrace, which always was 02:04:41.810 --> 02:04:43.260 sort of considered backwards, 02:04:43.790 --> 02:04:47.607 right? In the time of, like, the early Caesars, if you were in Rome and you 02:04:47.690 --> 02:04:50.645 thought, you know, Thrace, it was like, "Ugh." It's like, you know, 02:04:50.728 --> 02:04:51.678 some sort of, yeah, 02:04:51.810 --> 02:04:55.800 armpit of the Roman Empire or something, you know? But by Justinian's time, 02:04:55.920 --> 02:04:59.667 it's complete inversion. Like, the capital of the Roman world, the heart of it 02:04:59.750 --> 02:05:04.970 is there, and Rome is this kind of backwater provincial city in Italy, 02:05:05.790 --> 02:05:07.621 you know, that you've just liberated from the Goths, 02:05:07.705 --> 02:05:09.687 and it's kind of in ruins. There are wolves roaming the 02:05:09.770 --> 02:05:13.710 streets of the Forum. So this is a complete, you know, 02:05:13.830 --> 02:05:17.470 overhaul of the centers of power. It's turned inside out almost. 02:05:18.110 --> 02:05:21.090 - And I think it's fair to say that the reason the East... 02:05:22.390 --> 02:05:26.267 Part of the reason the East lasted as long as it did is the topic that we've 02:05:26.350 --> 02:05:28.550 mentioned, which is the structure of government. 02:05:28.633 --> 02:05:30.227 So can we just zoom out once again 02:05:30.310 --> 02:05:34.440 and explain the key ways the government functioned in the East Roman Empire, 02:05:35.290 --> 02:05:37.930 and how it evolved over the lifetime of the empire? 02:05:38.710 --> 02:05:42.100 - Very broadly speaking, there's civilian and military, 02:05:42.850 --> 02:05:44.933 right? And you might actually add the church. 02:05:45.017 --> 02:05:46.707 It's entirely plausible to treat the 02:05:46.790 --> 02:05:50.750 church as a kind of government institution at this time. 02:05:51.170 --> 02:05:55.090 But let's just stick with military and civilian. 02:05:55.210 --> 02:05:59.067 the military is pretty straightforward, would be recognizable to any student 02:05:59.150 --> 02:06:03.490 of military history. This is how you recruit, organize, equip, 02:06:04.450 --> 02:06:11.450 pay, and lead soldiers. And the East Roman state tends to have a 02:06:12.370 --> 02:06:14.950 larger military, at least paper strength. 02:06:15.750 --> 02:06:18.738 Active is a different matter. Like, how many soldiers you take on a campaign is 02:06:18.821 --> 02:06:19.771 a different matter, 02:06:19.990 --> 02:06:24.190 but how many soldiers you maintain, like, in the provinces generally, right, is a... 02:06:24.630 --> 02:06:31.630 It tends to be on the large side for a medieval society, right? So it compares 02:06:32.710 --> 02:06:36.517 favorably to, say, the Caliphate later on, which is a much 02:06:36.600 --> 02:06:43.600 more massive territorial entity. So the military is that. It can have anywhere 02:06:44.410 --> 02:06:51.410 between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high 02:06:52.650 --> 02:06:56.330 point, depending on the period. It's a lot of people. It's a lot of men. 02:06:57.370 --> 02:07:00.847 Factor in their families, right? These are also, like, part of the 02:07:00.930 --> 02:07:05.050 whole, you know, military economic complex, if you will. 02:07:05.470 --> 02:07:08.307 - And they're career military, so, like, this is their job. 02:07:08.390 --> 02:07:13.067 - Yep, yes. - And is the military for most of the history of the East Roman 02:07:13.150 --> 02:07:14.830 Empire defensive military? 02:07:16.150 --> 02:07:19.870 - Mostly, but not always. - Yeah. And we'll talk about Justinian. 02:07:20.170 --> 02:07:23.298 - Sure. Um, and so then you have the civilian administration. 02:07:23.381 --> 02:07:24.927 Civilian administration does a number of 02:07:25.010 --> 02:07:29.950 things. Principally, it is to find the funds to pay for this army, 02:07:30.830 --> 02:07:34.550 which is the single largest expense on the state budget, 02:07:34.750 --> 02:07:37.907 right? And so in order to find those funds, it has 02:07:37.990 --> 02:07:41.907 to have census of the assets, and it has 02:07:41.990 --> 02:07:45.970 to be able to tax them, and there are lots of different ways of doing that. So 02:07:46.170 --> 02:07:50.030 the civilian administration has a number of tax bureaus, 02:07:51.090 --> 02:07:55.047 records keeping this sort of thing, also a legal branch for 02:07:55.130 --> 02:07:58.927 resolving disputes with the imperial fisc. Okay. But the civilian 02:07:59.010 --> 02:08:02.547 administration does a number of other things, too. For example, the whole legal 02:08:02.630 --> 02:08:08.260 regulation of the, of the empire, the courts, judges, courts of appeal, 02:08:09.200 --> 02:08:13.127 Or also issuing laws, keeping records, all, 02:08:13.210 --> 02:08:17.087 all of this. And those are the main bureaus that 02:08:17.170 --> 02:08:20.770 have to do with the subjects of the empire. 02:08:21.230 --> 02:08:25.550 The emperors obviously maintain bureaus that are for things like diplomacy, 02:08:26.390 --> 02:08:28.290 right, or running the palace staff, 02:08:29.250 --> 02:08:32.130 Because the palace is a huge institution, right, with... 02:08:33.320 --> 02:08:37.187 And then there are a number of endowments that, you know, major 02:08:37.270 --> 02:08:41.047 churches, Hagia Sophia, for example, has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you 02:08:41.130 --> 02:08:44.547 know, readers to whatever, and so they need to be paid, and so you need 02:08:44.630 --> 02:08:48.067 endowments. The imperial household, it has expenses, so it needs 02:08:48.150 --> 02:08:51.890 endowments, right? So there's a lot of land that's earmarked 02:08:52.540 --> 02:08:56.257 For these kinds of expenses, that requires administration. So, 02:08:56.340 --> 02:08:58.777 this multiplies, right? I mean, go on and on and on and on. 02:08:58.860 --> 02:09:03.747 - And I'm sure the tax code is not a simple flat tax. It's... 02:09:03.830 --> 02:09:07.660 ... probably incredibly complicated. So it's just like in the United States, 02:09:08.940 --> 02:09:12.990 it feels like the majority of the United States is basically lawyers and the IRS. 02:09:14.880 --> 02:09:18.500 That's maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers. 02:09:18.600 --> 02:09:20.227 - Lawyers. - I'm not sure it's scientifically- 02:09:20.310 --> 02:09:23.213 - I thought they shrunk the IRS down now to a size that it can't, like, 02:09:23.297 --> 02:09:25.597 actually do anything. - They shrunk it down... 02:09:25.780 --> 02:09:27.347 - I thought it was just... -... to just 90% now. 02:09:27.430 --> 02:09:28.263 - 90, just 90. 02:09:29.520 --> 02:09:33.960 - No. I think there is something—this is another, 02:09:34.320 --> 02:09:37.997 Conversation about human nature and about the, the nature of 02:09:38.080 --> 02:09:40.130 governments, but there's something about, 02:09:40.860 --> 02:09:45.740 like I think it's impossible to have an IRS-type organization that doesn't grow. 02:09:47.180 --> 02:09:53.370 I think maybe with good intentions because you can't— You have to, like... 02:09:53.580 --> 02:09:57.400 ... everybody always comes to you, "Well, I don't... Here's my special 02:09:57.520 --> 02:09:59.980 case. I want my tax to be lower." 02:10:01.180 --> 02:10:04.367 And they kind of add another line. "All right, if you have... 02:10:04.450 --> 02:10:06.637 ... purple hair, you..." 02:10:06.720 --> 02:10:10.378 ... the tax decrease. And so you keep adding, and then of course, 02:10:10.461 --> 02:10:11.440 the more you add, 02:10:12.460 --> 02:10:16.200 the more opaque the thing becomes, therefore corruption seeps in 02:10:16.340 --> 02:10:19.917 or co- you know, maybe not like official corruption, but... 02:10:20.000 --> 02:10:23.837 ... corruption light, and then that tax code grows, and 02:10:23.920 --> 02:10:26.507 then all of a sudden you have these big institutions that then- 02:10:26.590 --> 02:10:30.257 ... encourage corruption, and then there's a bureaucracy, and there's a 02:10:30.340 --> 02:10:32.657 momentum, and this is just how humans are. 02:10:32.740 --> 02:10:35.524 - Yes. So this happens in East Roman society too. 02:10:35.607 --> 02:10:37.480 I'll give you some examples. So, 02:10:38.960 --> 02:10:42.900 there's not a tax code as such, but what you-- The way it 02:10:43.000 --> 02:10:45.240 operates is through basically exemptions. 02:10:46.290 --> 02:10:50.217 So you petition for an exemption. You might be 02:10:50.300 --> 02:10:53.691 a monastery, you might be a wealthy la- You might be someone well-connected to 02:10:53.775 --> 02:10:54.197 the court. 02:10:54.280 --> 02:10:58.180 You might be a struggling provincial village, and you petition the emperor or 02:10:58.300 --> 02:11:01.205 some official, and you say, "Hey, we know we had a bad season," or, 02:11:01.288 --> 02:11:04.584 "The barbarians came through and they took all of our... We can't pay the taxes. 02:11:04.668 --> 02:11:06.068 Could we have an exemption?" 02:11:06.880 --> 02:11:10.740 And emperors often are granting these exemptions for very 02:11:10.840 --> 02:11:14.400 specific things, like maybe for this year or for that tax or whatever. 02:11:15.000 --> 02:11:17.790 The problem is that the emperors are discovering every once in a while 02:11:17.874 --> 02:11:18.897 that their officials are, 02:11:18.980 --> 02:11:22.116 are granting these exemptions sort of on their own. So every once in a while, 02:11:22.199 --> 02:11:26.200 the emperors have to, like, clear house when they have to, like, 02:11:26.580 --> 02:11:30.360 cancel all of these exemptions and start the whole process again. But, 02:11:30.740 --> 02:11:32.928 later on, when-- once we start to have documentation, 02:11:33.011 --> 02:11:38.777 like maybe in the 11th century, we see that every little, well, not every, 02:11:38.860 --> 02:11:41.635 but we have all these monasteries, these little villages, these high officials, 02:11:41.718 --> 02:11:42.477 and they all have these 02:11:42.560 --> 02:11:45.600 documents that give them exemption from this or that or the other thing, 02:11:45.683 --> 02:11:48.620 and it gets so complicated and that's how it works. 02:11:49.780 --> 02:11:53.617 - Uh, but it is the engine of society that makes the whole thing work 'cause you 02:11:53.700 --> 02:11:54.533 have to fund-- 02:11:55.280 --> 02:11:58.603 I mean, there's infrastructure projects, but you have to also fund the army, 02:11:58.686 --> 02:12:03.220 and the army's necessary to defend against all the military incursions. 02:12:03.660 --> 02:12:07.640 A good fraction of the bureaucracy seemed to have been eunuchs, 02:12:07.820 --> 02:12:11.420 which are castrated men. Can you explain why this was a prominent thing? 02:12:11.980 --> 02:12:15.280 - The eunuchs are part of the household staff of the emperor. 02:12:16.680 --> 02:12:19.623 So that would be like, what would it be? The West Wing of the White House 02:12:19.706 --> 02:12:25.120 or something like this. So they are the people who handle the imperial person, 02:12:25.920 --> 02:12:29.220 the bedchamber, the organization of palace life, 02:12:29.780 --> 02:12:33.920 things like banquets, you know, these kinds of things, the wardrobe. 02:12:34.720 --> 02:12:38.360 And why are they important? So for starters, if you're, like, 02:12:38.820 --> 02:12:42.717 physically with the emperor all day, right? Like, 02:12:42.800 --> 02:12:44.741 you're handling the meetings, you're... Right? 02:12:44.824 --> 02:12:46.697 People can come to you and say, "Hey, I need 02:12:46.780 --> 02:12:50.557 you to put in a good word for whatever," right? So they can 02:12:50.640 --> 02:12:54.517 get things done. So you bribe them, they get things done. So they're 02:12:54.600 --> 02:12:57.907 very useful in this way. They're also kind of hated for that reason. 02:12:57.990 --> 02:13:01.880 Right? But they're also kind of there to be hated. In other words, they 02:13:02.060 --> 02:13:05.977 soak up a lot of the frustration that people sometimes feel when 02:13:06.060 --> 02:13:10.300 they're not getting, you know, what they want from the court. 02:13:10.640 --> 02:13:14.190 Okay. That's one thing. Here's the other thing that's more interesting. 02:13:15.760 --> 02:13:19.700 How do you as an emperor make sure that your bureaucracy doesn't displace 02:13:19.820 --> 02:13:23.820 you? Like, if the bureaucracy is handling all the matters of running the empire, 02:13:23.960 --> 02:13:29.577 what do we need you for? Right? Like, the bureaucracy can develop rules of its own- 02:13:29.660 --> 02:13:33.397 ... for solving all the problems for dealing with 02:13:33.480 --> 02:13:36.720 petitions and exemptions and whatever. Like, they can do it. So 02:13:37.220 --> 02:13:41.057 where's your power exactly? So what the emperors did not want is to 02:13:41.140 --> 02:13:44.697 be displaced or overshadowed by these kinds of more 02:13:44.780 --> 02:13:48.060 impersonal institutions. And so they would often set up, like, 02:13:48.840 --> 02:13:51.940 So this could be a bit confusing. 02:13:52.980 --> 02:13:56.740 So eunuchs were perfect for this reason because often 02:13:56.980 --> 02:14:00.737 their origin was from outside the empire, or they were former slaves. They 02:14:00.820 --> 02:14:03.960 weren't connected to, like, networks of powerful families. 02:14:04.060 --> 02:14:07.637 So you knew that they would generally be loyal to you because they 02:14:07.720 --> 02:14:11.690 depended entirely on you, the emperor, for their position and their power. 02:14:12.320 --> 02:14:16.237 And what you would sometimes do is you'd say, "Okay, I'm putting you in charge of, 02:14:16.320 --> 02:14:19.670 like, this army." Literally, like putting you in charge of an army, 02:14:20.360 --> 02:14:23.640 just so that you can counterbalance the kind of 02:14:24.120 --> 02:14:28.007 networks of established generals, and you'll have, like, a eunuch 02:14:28.090 --> 02:14:31.917 from my wardrobe. You know, I'm putting him in charge. And so this 02:14:32.000 --> 02:14:35.897 kind of shook things up a little bit so that people who were part of a 02:14:35.980 --> 02:14:39.897 system or a network could never fully count that that could get them all 02:14:39.980 --> 02:14:43.283 the power that they wanted. They now have to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe 02:14:43.366 --> 02:14:47.297 who's, like, outside of their system. And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely 02:14:47.380 --> 02:14:50.937 competent like Narses, Justinian's general, who 02:14:51.020 --> 02:14:54.637 defeated the Goths in Italy in this massive battle. Like, this guy was a total 02:14:54.720 --> 02:14:58.597 hardass. And he was this little old man. He was very old, and he was tiny, and he 02:14:58.680 --> 02:15:04.317 was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed at him, but he had the last laugh, right? 02:15:04.400 --> 02:15:08.297 - Is there some component to them being eunuchs, so they can't 02:15:08.380 --> 02:15:09.717 propagate the bloodline? 02:15:09.800 --> 02:15:12.526 - Yeah. They can't have their own family, so they can't be, like, 02:15:12.609 --> 02:15:13.697 looking out for their own 02:15:13.780 --> 02:15:19.660 offspring. They're kind of isolated individuals who depend entirely on 02:15:19.743 --> 02:15:26.120 your favor. - Is it known whether the castration is almost always by force? 02:15:26.610 --> 02:15:30.417 - There are eunuchs in society generally. They're often bishops. They're appointed 02:15:30.500 --> 02:15:32.597 Patriarch of Constantinople sometimes. They're- 02:15:32.680 --> 02:15:36.417 ... they're in all kinds of positions. Many of them are 02:15:36.500 --> 02:15:41.737 children who are enslaved and castrated against their will. 02:15:41.820 --> 02:15:45.495 Sometimes, however, they are castrated very much according to the will of 02:15:45.578 --> 02:15:50.217 their families. Um, in some parts of, like in 02:15:50.300 --> 02:15:53.950 Caucasia, there were some regions that were famous for producing eunuchs, 02:15:54.220 --> 02:15:55.940 also in, in Persia and so forth. 02:15:56.970 --> 02:16:00.340 But also, we are pretty sure that this happened within the empire, 02:16:00.880 --> 02:16:02.517 because there were some families that, like, 02:16:02.600 --> 02:16:04.697 really wanted to place a eunuch at the court. 02:16:04.780 --> 02:16:07.897 Um, so from Paphlagonia, there were a number of... This is in 02:16:07.980 --> 02:16:14.980 northern Asia Minor. And so they would... It was almost like a family strategy. 02:16:15.760 --> 02:16:18.860 - I mean, it's fascinating. It's fascinating that they had so, 02:16:19.440 --> 02:16:24.787 So much representation in the inner circles- 02:16:24.870 --> 02:16:28.220 ... of the emperor, and therefore had real influence. 02:16:28.340 --> 02:16:32.257 - Oh, yeah. But this was the case always, even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians 02:16:32.340 --> 02:16:32.947 under- 02:16:33.030 --> 02:16:36.980 ... you know, the first Caesars. There are all these powerful eunuchs, and the, 02:16:37.760 --> 02:16:39.622 the senatorial class always hates them. I mean, 02:16:39.706 --> 02:16:41.656 it's just the s- it's the same dynamic. 02:16:42.180 --> 02:16:45.717 - Uh, one of the interesting things you've said as an aside in one of the many 02:16:45.800 --> 02:16:51.200 podcasts that I listened with you is you said that there were no isolated people, 02:16:52.820 --> 02:16:56.520 You know, people that are disconnected from the empire, 02:16:57.780 --> 02:17:01.537 Maybe who, for example, don't know about the taxes or just don't feel 02:17:01.620 --> 02:17:05.310 integrated into the system. I mean, that's really interesting to me, that 02:17:06.180 --> 02:17:12.200 there's so much connectivity, there's so much cohesion-... as an entire peoples. 02:17:12.860 --> 02:17:16.477 - These people do not exist, these isolated peasants. This is a 02:17:16.560 --> 02:17:20.510 myth that I, one day I'm going to write a chapter about this 02:17:20.680 --> 02:17:23.614 because it's this idea that you occasionally encounter, well, 02:17:23.697 --> 02:17:24.357 actually quite 02:17:24.440 --> 02:17:28.277 often in the scholarship, that there are these sort of rural communities out 02:17:28.360 --> 02:17:32.110 there somewhere that don't know what's going on in 02:17:32.200 --> 02:17:36.177 Constantinople. They might not know, even know who the emperor is. They're cut 02:17:36.260 --> 02:17:40.157 off. Maybe a tax official will show up every once in a 02:17:40.240 --> 02:17:43.877 while, maybe not, and they just live their lives on their own, 02:17:43.960 --> 02:17:47.880 unaffected by the, say, state, because the medieval state, 02:17:48.020 --> 02:17:51.200 we suspect, is you know, always 02:17:51.540 --> 02:17:55.277 powerless and can't, you know, affect people's lives. There's 02:17:55.360 --> 02:17:59.160 no proof for these communities at all. At most, you 02:17:59.320 --> 02:18:03.310 might try to find some, like, actual hermits, like, 02:18:03.420 --> 02:18:08.640 actual Christian ascetic hermits who try to go out and find this situation, 02:18:09.520 --> 02:18:13.237 and sometimes they're described in the text as, like, oh, so, so-and-so went so 02:18:13.320 --> 02:18:17.240 far out into the mountains that, like, not even the tax census people 02:18:17.520 --> 02:18:20.977 showed up there, which tells you how they think about what it means to be 02:18:21.060 --> 02:18:24.920 isolated, right? So this is not a... This is a state in which every 02:18:25.040 --> 02:18:28.657 arable, you know, piece of arable land has been censused for 02:18:28.740 --> 02:18:32.380 centuries. It's not like you can hide a village, right? 02:18:32.940 --> 02:18:36.857 And the, the taxation process is not like, what, they visit 02:18:36.940 --> 02:18:40.697 once a year, give us some coin, and we'll leave. It's actually more like three 02:18:40.780 --> 02:18:44.720 times a year. And the taxes is not just coin and 02:18:45.100 --> 02:18:48.737 maybe a payment in kind or something, but it's, it's a whole bunch of things like 02:18:48.820 --> 02:18:52.680 services and recruits and all... You're right. And once you 02:18:52.780 --> 02:18:56.860 start adding all of these things up, it creates a very dense, 02:18:57.740 --> 02:19:02.097 Institutional matrix in which all communities are enmeshed. 02:19:02.180 --> 02:19:06.640 They can't get out of it. Also, they, they have a church, don't they? 02:19:07.570 --> 02:19:09.430 And if they have a church, they have the calendar. 02:19:09.513 --> 02:19:11.857 And of course they have the calendar because... 02:19:11.940 --> 02:19:15.820 So, like, how do they organize time and space and 02:19:15.960 --> 02:19:18.475 boundaries and all of these things? No, this is all state institutions. 02:19:18.559 --> 02:19:23.257 How do they pay for anything? They have coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think 02:19:23.340 --> 02:19:27.100 that these institutions structured the way that everyone, 02:19:27.360 --> 02:19:31.200 even in village communities, even in the most isolated ones, supposedly, 02:19:31.760 --> 02:19:35.417 how they thought about things like time and space and value and 02:19:35.500 --> 02:19:39.480 relations and power and kinship and so forth. 02:19:39.860 --> 02:19:43.910 - So what you're saying is taxation is the thing that brings the empire together. 02:19:44.700 --> 02:19:46.000 - It is, principally, yes. 02:19:46.420 --> 02:19:50.017 - I mean, it's-... it's true, right? This is, like, this is how you know. 02:19:50.100 --> 02:19:53.480 - Yeah. But on top of that is layered things like the economy, 02:19:53.740 --> 02:19:55.960 coins, right? But also there's the church. 02:19:56.600 --> 02:19:59.057 - Yeah, and the church is important, just like you said. 02:19:59.140 --> 02:20:00.997 Yeah. And there's churches throughout the empire. 02:20:01.080 --> 02:20:04.597 - Yes, and they have sermons, and they pray for the 02:20:04.680 --> 02:20:08.980 emperor after this service. No, there are no isolated communities. 02:20:09.500 --> 02:20:13.060 - So one of the things I briefly mentioned just would be nice to 02:20:13.980 --> 02:20:17.400 elaborate on is this term of monarchic republic. 02:20:18.640 --> 02:20:24.860 So we've been throwing around words like kingdom and republic and empire and, 02:20:25.740 --> 02:20:32.740 Monarchy. So what is the actual... What's a good applicable term to what this 02:20:33.360 --> 02:20:35.320 thing is-... the East Roman Empire? 02:20:35.660 --> 02:20:39.470 - That's an excellent question, and I'm glad you flagged that 02:20:40.040 --> 02:20:41.818 because we call it conventionally Byzantine Empire, 02:20:41.902 --> 02:20:46.197 and it's neither of those things really. We talked about Byzantine. 02:20:46.280 --> 02:20:52.220 Now, empire's a bit of a problem because first of all, There's no term in Greek, 02:20:53.600 --> 02:20:58.040 In the Greek that they use at this period that corresponds to our notion of empire. 02:20:59.100 --> 02:21:02.977 It's not part of the official terms. It's not even... They didn't even have a term 02:21:03.060 --> 02:21:07.110 for it. You could have... There's some terms that might mean something like state 02:21:07.280 --> 02:21:13.757 Arche maybe or kratos. But for the most part, it's either basileia, which we might 02:21:13.840 --> 02:21:17.980 translate as monarchy or politeia, which is polity. 02:21:18.900 --> 02:21:24.280 And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek translation of Latin res publica. 02:21:24.620 --> 02:21:28.160 Res publica doesn't mean republic the way we mean it for the Romans, 02:21:28.400 --> 02:21:30.926 like a non-monarchical regime, right? That's how we mean, like, 02:21:31.009 --> 02:21:32.177 the American Republic or, you 02:21:32.260 --> 02:21:35.737 know. That's a usage that came in later, like during the 02:21:35.820 --> 02:21:39.657 Enlightenment. In Latin, a res publica is the 02:21:39.740 --> 02:21:43.417 common affairs, the common interest of a people who are 02:21:43.500 --> 02:21:47.167 constituted as a political community, regardless of the type of 02:21:47.250 --> 02:21:50.917 regime that they have. Like even Cicero could imagine the Roman res 02:21:51.000 --> 02:21:54.360 publica governed by a king or by a senate or by a 02:21:54.500 --> 02:21:58.277 democracy. And they continue to use that term. We don't use it 02:21:58.360 --> 02:22:01.322 according to Roman norms. We use it according to modern norms, 02:22:01.406 --> 02:22:02.306 the term republic. 02:22:03.460 --> 02:22:07.357 So they continue to call it a res publica or a polity under the emperors 02:22:07.440 --> 02:22:11.150 as well, right? And it was understood that the role of the 02:22:11.280 --> 02:22:14.977 emperor, whether he's Caesar or basileus or whatever, whatever 02:22:15.060 --> 02:22:18.860 language, was to serve the polity. They keep saying this. 02:22:19.540 --> 02:22:23.560 So the terms that occur in the sources most commonly are 02:22:24.380 --> 02:22:28.320 basileia of the Romans, polity of the Romans, or Romania, 02:22:28.500 --> 02:22:33.740 which is the proper name of this state. Not empire. 02:22:33.900 --> 02:22:39.120 Now, empire. Empire in modern English commonly, 02:22:39.860 --> 02:22:43.717 an empire is a state that's created when one group conquers a bunch of 02:22:43.800 --> 02:22:46.003 others and rules them. It could be an ethnic group. 02:22:46.086 --> 02:22:47.657 It could be an ethnoreligious group. 02:22:47.740 --> 02:22:51.517 It could be a political group, whatever. But there's an act of conquest, and 02:22:51.600 --> 02:22:54.450 results in a state where one group is ruling over others. 02:22:55.200 --> 02:22:57.426 That's not how Romania is actually constituted. 02:22:57.509 --> 02:22:59.137 We've talked about this. It's, for 02:22:59.220 --> 02:23:02.957 the most part, all Roman citizens ruling like Roman 02:23:03.040 --> 02:23:06.380 subjects ruling themselves, through their own government. 02:23:07.300 --> 02:23:10.980 So it's not an empire strictly speaking. Now, occasionally, 02:23:11.580 --> 02:23:14.340 they will conquer other people, right? We talked about the warfare. 02:23:14.424 --> 02:23:17.774 Sometimes it's not just defensive. Sometimes it's offensive, right? 02:23:17.960 --> 02:23:21.777 In that case, you do establish a- an imperial 02:23:21.860 --> 02:23:25.697 relationship. Like we, the Romans, are ruling over this other group. Could 02:23:25.780 --> 02:23:29.680 be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians for a while, it could be whatever. Or, 02:23:29.780 --> 02:23:34.460 even some Muslims in northern Syria for a while in the 11th century, 02:23:35.480 --> 02:23:36.930 who-- and you are not Romans. 02:23:37.940 --> 02:23:39.999 And that's an imperial relationship. The question is, 02:23:40.082 --> 02:23:41.777 how many of these imperial relationships do 02:23:41.860 --> 02:23:45.697 you need to decide that, well, we've reached a tipping point, and 02:23:45.780 --> 02:23:49.657 now we're just gonna call the whole thing an empire? Personally, I don't 02:23:49.740 --> 02:23:53.680 think we ever reach that point. I mean, all states, even today, 02:23:53.820 --> 02:23:55.120 have like minorities. 02:23:56.020 --> 02:23:59.441 Some of them are part of that state because they were conquered once upon 02:23:59.524 --> 02:24:00.357 a time. 02:24:00.720 --> 02:24:05.420 But we don't call those states empires necessarily. Even though... Like, 02:24:06.800 --> 02:24:10.340 look at the United Kingdom. Well, Wales was conquered. 02:24:11.240 --> 02:24:14.690 And, you know, the Welsh have their own identity, their own language. 02:24:15.560 --> 02:24:20.300 I don't know that you would call that now an imperial relationship. 02:24:21.140 --> 02:24:22.580 Maybe. I don't know. 02:24:22.800 --> 02:24:26.777 - I think there's also a synonymous use of the word empire that refers to 02:24:26.860 --> 02:24:29.477 the power that the state has- 02:24:29.560 --> 02:24:33.000 ... in the global context geopolitically. So sometimes 02:24:33.120 --> 02:24:36.562 empire is used synonymously with superpower, 02:24:36.646 --> 02:24:39.127 meaning it's one of the primary- 02:24:39.210 --> 02:24:42.977 ... nations in the world, and it doesn't necessarily have to do with the 02:24:43.060 --> 02:24:46.420 imperial nature of its history. 02:24:47.080 --> 02:24:50.680 - That's true. - Hence the sort of American empire, US empire. 02:24:50.840 --> 02:24:54.557 - Yes. Though you would never characterize the American political regime as an 02:24:54.640 --> 02:25:01.020 imperial one insofar as it does not have an emperor, for example. But anyway, 02:25:02.520 --> 02:25:06.257 yes. The problem is that in my field, we use the term empire 02:25:06.340 --> 02:25:09.997 conventionally, even when what you just described is 02:25:10.080 --> 02:25:13.937 clearly not happening, like even toward the end. It's not a major world 02:25:14.020 --> 02:25:17.957 power. It, like, has a few islands in the Peloponnese, and, but we call it 02:25:18.040 --> 02:25:20.817 empire and the emperor, and it's like, it's completely ridiculous. 02:25:20.900 --> 02:25:24.940 There's not even a term in their language for that sort of thing. 02:25:25.900 --> 02:25:27.845 anyway, we can call things whatever we want, 02:25:27.928 --> 02:25:29.677 just so we understand what the reality 02:25:29.760 --> 02:25:33.600 is-... and what we are using those terms to mean. 02:25:33.760 --> 02:25:35.537 I think that's the important thing. Yeah. 02:25:35.620 --> 02:25:41.320 - So then let's look at words which are both fascinating, monarchic republic. 02:25:41.720 --> 02:25:46.250 - Right. - Why is that a good term for the East Roman Empire? 02:25:46.720 --> 02:25:50.657 - Uh, because they understood it very much to be a polity in the Roman sense 02:25:50.740 --> 02:25:55.120 of a res publica that was governed by a regime that was monarchical. 02:25:55.500 --> 02:25:59.400 - So those two elements, there's an emperor dude at the top, 02:26:00.480 --> 02:26:03.980 and it functioned politically like a republic. 02:26:04.460 --> 02:26:07.920 - Also, the emperor was expected to be working for the republic. 02:26:08.680 --> 02:26:12.660 Like, they keep saying this. So, like, this was their conception. 02:26:13.440 --> 02:26:18.340 You don't find it, for example, in other kinds of dynastic empires, 02:26:19.220 --> 02:26:22.857 The ones that don't emerge from within the context of an ancient 02:26:22.940 --> 02:26:26.437 republic. So this is another reason why I find this civilization so 02:26:26.520 --> 02:26:28.352 fascinating, right? I mean, we mentioned the, 02:26:28.435 --> 02:26:30.197 the Greek and the Roman and the Christian 02:26:30.280 --> 02:26:32.334 elements that are kind of jostling together. 02:26:32.417 --> 02:26:37.780 This is fascinating to me in part because it's this weird combination of monarchical 02:26:37.880 --> 02:26:44.300 power, like in terms of executive institutions—... and a republican kind of 02:26:44.780 --> 02:26:48.697 baseline ideology on which it operates. Yeah, and they, they 02:26:48.780 --> 02:26:50.240 sometimes come to a head. 02:26:50.860 --> 02:26:54.110 - Is there at all a degree to which it's a military dictatorship? 02:26:54.600 --> 02:26:58.160 Because especially when it's the general in the emperor's seat, 02:26:58.800 --> 02:27:02.697 yes, there's a republic, yes, there's political discussion, but the army has 02:27:02.780 --> 02:27:08.137 a lot of power. So to what degree is it a military dictatorship, as is 02:27:08.220 --> 02:27:11.860 sometimes talked about when you talk about the Roman Empire? 02:27:12.610 --> 02:27:15.947 - Yeah, so Augustus' position, for example, and that of his 02:27:16.030 --> 02:27:18.876 successors is, is talked about as a military dictatorship. 02:27:18.960 --> 02:27:19.927 In other words, when 02:27:20.010 --> 02:27:24.710 push comes to shove—... and the basis of political power is the army, 02:27:25.710 --> 02:27:29.087 then I suppose it's legitimate for historians to talk 02:27:29.170 --> 02:27:33.070 about a military dictatorship. But here's why I don't think 02:27:33.570 --> 02:27:37.170 the Eastern Roman Empire is a military dictatorship. Even though, again, 02:27:37.670 --> 02:27:43.590 the emperors control the armies, and the armies themselves will often have a say 02:27:44.370 --> 02:27:48.730 in who becomes emperor, like through the civil wars that we mentioned. 02:27:49.410 --> 02:27:53.250 Okay. The reason why I don't think it's a military dictatorship is because 02:27:54.210 --> 02:28:01.210 they almost never, very, very, very rarely use the army as an instrument of social 02:28:01.810 --> 02:28:02.643 control. 02:28:03.250 --> 02:28:07.130 - Is that, isn't that strange to you? Because you see that being done 02:28:07.910 --> 02:28:12.650 through so much of human history. And the fact they don't resort to that, 02:28:13.470 --> 02:28:18.110 I mean, they, for 1,000 years, that's just not a thing. 02:28:18.870 --> 02:28:22.610 - As a way of keeping down the population, you just don't see it. 02:28:23.150 --> 02:28:26.060 And part of the reason for that is I don't think the population needs to be kept 02:28:26.143 --> 02:28:29.107 down. Like, this gets back to the consensus that we were talking about. 02:28:29.190 --> 02:28:33.730 The understanding is that the army is there to protect the Roman people. 02:28:34.200 --> 02:28:41.200 And is often recruited among them. And for most of the period that I study, is like 02:28:41.290 --> 02:28:44.130 lives among them. So when the emperors have to call up the army, 02:28:44.213 --> 02:28:47.887 they're literally calling up soldiers from local villages. 02:28:47.970 --> 02:28:51.370 - It's just incredible that this worked. I guess the civil war thing 02:28:52.030 --> 02:28:55.867 is, as a mechanism, is effective. 'Cause you just, throughout human 02:28:55.950 --> 02:28:59.727 history, I mean, you look at even recent history, it's just a very 02:28:59.810 --> 02:29:05.050 common thing for a authoritarian figure to use the army to suppress people. 02:29:05.350 --> 02:29:09.247 - Yeah, but isn't that dangerous, though? Look at how many modern regimes 02:29:09.330 --> 02:29:14.153 tried to use their own armies against their people who are in a moment of rising 02:29:14.236 --> 02:29:19.350 up. - It doesn't last. - Well, it's a risk. Like the Arab Spring. 02:29:19.750 --> 02:29:24.330 Especially in Egypt. And you could, you could tell for those three weeks 02:29:25.410 --> 02:29:29.220 that Mubarak was trying to decide whether he could 02:29:29.310 --> 02:29:33.240 actually count on the army to suppress the protesters or not, 02:29:33.930 --> 02:29:37.827 because you never know what they're going to do if you ask 02:29:37.910 --> 02:29:43.930 them to fire on a civilian population. It can backfire on you badly. 02:29:45.090 --> 02:29:49.027 So I think that is a very dangerous force to use, and 02:29:49.110 --> 02:29:52.850 even in the context of modern regimes, can result in a regime change. 02:29:53.490 --> 02:29:57.027 - Absolutely, and there's huge wisdom behind that, but, you know, leaders are 02:29:57.110 --> 02:29:59.817 not always wise, often not wise. 02:29:59.900 --> 02:30:03.267 And often maybe they start out wise, but power corrupts them over time, 02:30:03.350 --> 02:30:08.387 and so the fact that this does not happen just over and over and over and over- 02:30:08.470 --> 02:30:12.007 ... in the East Roman Empire is, is, there's just a signal there that's 02:30:12.090 --> 02:30:16.190 fascinating. And I mean, this goes to the book that you want to be working on- 02:30:16.630 --> 02:30:18.730 ... About why the thing lasts. So. 02:30:19.070 --> 02:30:22.650 - There's one emperor who does do that, and that's Justinian. 02:30:22.810 --> 02:30:24.967 - Mm-hmm. Yeah, he gets wild. - Right. Yeah. 02:30:25.050 --> 02:30:28.287 - So let's talk about Justinian. We have to. We have to talk about Justinian. 02:30:28.370 --> 02:30:29.203 - Yes. 02:30:29.330 --> 02:30:32.090 - one of the most impactful Roman emperors in history, 02:30:33.030 --> 02:30:37.430 started as a peasant, and rose in power to become emperor. 02:30:38.250 --> 02:30:42.230 He fought wars of conquest and was very consequential and impactful. 02:30:42.390 --> 02:30:47.710 - Yes. - So who was he? - All right. So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to 02:30:48.050 --> 02:30:54.390 565, so quite a long reign. He was the nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I, 02:30:55.670 --> 02:30:59.290 who was an older man, ruled for just under a decade before Justinian. 02:30:59.910 --> 02:31:03.050 And both of them came from small, poor 02:31:03.750 --> 02:31:06.087 agricultural communities in the western Balkans. 02:31:06.170 --> 02:31:11.390 - We should say that Justin I ended up in your worst 10 emperors list. 02:31:11.750 --> 02:31:15.550 - Yeah, for one decision. He's not the worst of the worst, but he, 02:31:15.690 --> 02:31:19.307 he made a very, very bad call when it came to church policy, tore the church 02:31:19.390 --> 02:31:21.140 apart. He shouldn't have done that, 02:31:21.750 --> 02:31:25.630 in my view. But by the way, Justinian's an immensely complicated figure. 02:31:25.770 --> 02:31:27.480 I found it impossible to decide, first of all, 02:31:27.563 --> 02:31:30.247 whether to put him on the best emperors or the worst emperors. 02:31:30.330 --> 02:31:31.807 - Yeah, you, I mean, you're being spicy. Yeah. 02:31:31.890 --> 02:31:34.890 - Yeah, yeah. You have to be provocative about these things. 02:31:35.050 --> 02:31:38.930 And I thought omitting those two would be that, and it, and it was. So, 02:31:39.050 --> 02:31:39.887 and here we are talking about it. 02:31:39.970 --> 02:31:42.247 - Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy. 02:31:42.330 --> 02:31:45.937 - And through all the systems of social mobility that we've been 02:31:46.020 --> 02:31:49.230 talking about, Justin ended up emperor. 02:31:49.850 --> 02:31:52.179 because of his military background, he just rose through the ranks. 02:31:52.262 --> 02:31:53.607 He was in the right place at the right 02:31:53.690 --> 02:31:57.430 time, became emperor, and then he gradually positioned his nephew, 02:31:57.630 --> 02:32:00.075 Justinian, whose background we do not know. Literally, 02:32:00.159 --> 02:32:01.407 we do not know anything that 02:32:01.490 --> 02:32:04.708 Justinian did before the age of something like 38 when he appears on the historical 02:32:04.792 --> 02:32:05.625 record. 02:32:06.030 --> 02:32:09.767 Same background. We know where he came from, but we don't know what he was 02:32:09.850 --> 02:32:13.890 doing, although, like, was he an active soldier for decades? We don't know. 02:32:15.310 --> 02:32:19.087 Probably not. He comes equipped with, 02:32:19.170 --> 02:32:22.627 like, a knowledge of something like Roman law and some Christian 02:32:22.710 --> 02:32:25.070 theology. That seems to be, like, what he knew. 02:32:26.030 --> 02:32:29.927 And then Justin positions him to become his 02:32:30.010 --> 02:32:33.070 successor eventually, kind of reluctantly, but he does. 02:32:33.750 --> 02:32:37.250 Justinian also marries Theodora, who's a woman who's a 02:32:37.410 --> 02:32:40.730 former sex worker, which is a controversial choice. 02:32:41.710 --> 02:32:45.770 By this point, he's a senator and is holding all of these top generalships, 02:32:46.670 --> 02:32:49.947 and then he becomes emperor. - She was also very influential, yes? 02:32:50.030 --> 02:32:51.127 - Very powerful, yes. - Very powerful. 02:32:51.210 --> 02:32:56.370 - Under his, yeah, during his reign. So the interesting thing about Justinian's 02:32:57.410 --> 02:33:01.070 choice of, let's say, associates, and that includes his wife, 02:33:01.830 --> 02:33:06.420 is that he seems to have just gone for people he, like, he thought were talented- 02:33:06.690 --> 02:33:10.587 ... or that would be good for him as a ruler, rather than 02:33:10.670 --> 02:33:14.447 their social class or prestige. And so he accumulates 02:33:14.530 --> 02:33:21.530 around him quite a motley group of odd, sometimes like these kinds of, 02:33:22.000 --> 02:33:28.540 disreputable people. But they did what he wanted them to, and they were, they, with 02:33:28.640 --> 02:33:32.520 lasting consequences for world history. So he has an eye for talent, 02:33:32.940 --> 02:33:36.680 and, and he doesn't hesitate to pick people that others might look down 02:33:36.780 --> 02:33:39.577 on if he thought they could get the job done. 02:33:39.660 --> 02:33:43.437 And these are some of the attributes that enable him to be as successful as he 02:33:43.520 --> 02:33:46.520 was. So that's his background. 02:33:47.920 --> 02:33:50.720 He's a Latin speaker primarily, but he knows Greek, too. 02:33:51.360 --> 02:33:55.340 - So here he is and he, but he had, so like I mentioned, the wars of conquests. 02:33:55.440 --> 02:33:57.400 He also overhauled the Roman law. 02:33:58.180 --> 02:33:59.500 - He appoints a committee- 02:33:59.840 --> 02:34:05.840 ... As one does-... To just take the whole of Roman law and condense it 02:34:05.940 --> 02:34:09.857 into what today we call the Corpus Juris Civilis, which is the, 02:34:09.940 --> 02:34:14.800 the body of Roman civil law. And this was a massive work of codification, 02:34:15.720 --> 02:34:19.477 And it is our main source for Roman 02:34:19.560 --> 02:34:23.080 law. Like overwhelmingly, what we call Roman law 02:34:23.920 --> 02:34:27.086 is what Justinian's committee, and specifically this character called 02:34:27.169 --> 02:34:31.180 Tribonian, who was a very accomplished jurist said it was. 02:34:31.480 --> 02:34:34.687 - Mm-hmm. And that, did that persist through time? Did that last? 02:34:34.770 --> 02:34:38.350 - Yes, still to this day. When you study Roman law, you're studying 02:34:39.140 --> 02:34:40.240 Tribonian's committee. 02:34:40.960 --> 02:34:45.570 - And so in terms of our modern society, how much of impact did that have, 02:34:46.640 --> 02:34:51.190 this codification, this stable law that ran the East Roman Empire? 02:34:51.500 --> 02:34:53.900 - Well, I mean, Roman legal concepts pervade 02:34:54.900 --> 02:34:58.837 everything from philosophy to political thought to actual Roman, uh, legal 02:34:58.920 --> 02:35:00.951 practice. I mean, depends on what country you're in. 02:35:01.035 --> 02:35:02.935 So in many of the countries of Europe, 02:35:03.940 --> 02:35:05.340 it is the, 02:35:06.320 --> 02:35:09.217 you know, current law. And it is to some degree. I mean, I'm, I'm exaggerating. 02:35:09.300 --> 02:35:13.280 But legal scholars have to study Roman law. Even, even, 02:35:13.600 --> 02:35:15.050 law students have to do that. 02:35:15.700 --> 02:35:18.412 Not in, so much in countries like the United States or Britain, 02:35:18.495 --> 02:35:19.537 which have the so-called 02:35:19.620 --> 02:35:25.140 common law system. But ideas in Roman law about, for example, 02:35:25.440 --> 02:35:28.980 property, right, ownership, things like this, 02:35:29.520 --> 02:35:33.397 these were hugely important in formulating ideas, for example, about sovereignty 02:35:33.480 --> 02:35:36.917 in political thought. Yeah, it's one of the most important and 02:35:37.000 --> 02:35:40.280 influential acts of committee work ever done in Constantinople. 02:35:41.700 --> 02:35:44.977 - So, going to Perplexity here and looking at some aspects of the 02:35:45.060 --> 02:35:48.957 Justinian's laws, they include a systematic structure of private 02:35:49.040 --> 02:35:52.697 law, persons, things, actions, strong protection of 02:35:52.780 --> 02:35:56.580 property and contracts, detailed family and inheritance 02:35:56.700 --> 02:36:00.120 rules, and a hierarchical status-based view of 02:36:00.240 --> 02:36:04.080 persons. These elements became the template for later civil 02:36:04.180 --> 02:36:11.117 law systems. And some overall structures, tripartite schema, law 02:36:11.200 --> 02:36:18.200 organized around personae, legal subjects, things, and procedural 02:36:18.800 --> 02:36:21.987 actions. Essentially who, what, and how of— 02:36:22.070 --> 02:36:25.857 ...private law. And it goes on. I mean, a lot of the things I'm reading here really 02:36:25.940 --> 02:36:30.660 sounds like what we think of as law. Marriage. 02:36:31.000 --> 02:36:33.760 - Look, most of it's about property. 02:36:35.140 --> 02:36:38.597 - Marriage is a legal status. Lawful matrimony required 02:36:38.680 --> 02:36:42.380 conformity to rules about age, citizenship, and 02:36:42.560 --> 02:36:46.457 cognatum or prohibited degrees, incest rules, adoption 02:36:46.540 --> 02:36:49.060 relations, et cetera. All that kind of stuff. 02:36:49.300 --> 02:36:51.620 - Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not. 02:36:52.240 --> 02:36:54.190 - What was their view of homosexuality? 02:36:54.480 --> 02:36:57.330 - Well, I mean, Justinian thought it caused earthquakes. 02:36:58.360 --> 02:37:00.037 - Oh, did it? - Yes. - Did it? 02:37:00.120 --> 02:37:01.780 - Yes. - Wow. That's fascinating. 02:37:01.880 --> 02:37:05.560 - Um, no, for him no, for, for... So for Christian emperors 02:37:06.640 --> 02:37:10.720 or Christian authorities, this is a, a reprehensible immoral act. 02:37:11.620 --> 02:37:15.680 Um, depending, it, it could be punished. 02:37:16.140 --> 02:37:20.100 Um, Justinian did try to punish it pretty brutally. I mean, 02:37:20.420 --> 02:37:27.097 ultimately lethally. Um, however, this gets really tricky 02:37:27.180 --> 02:37:34.180 here because what counts as a homosexual act is not clear to everybody, right? 02:37:35.360 --> 02:37:42.360 And in addition to which, there... This is a society that generally will not go 02:37:45.580 --> 02:37:48.560 after, let's say, 02:37:50.400 --> 02:37:54.297 Scandals or deviance or however you wanna call it, like systematically. 02:37:54.380 --> 02:37:56.637 This is not like some-- There's no inquisition. 02:37:56.720 --> 02:38:03.720 There's no social police. If there's some sort of scandal and this comes out, 02:38:04.080 --> 02:38:07.780 then it's a problem. But they're not actively going to track down, 02:38:07.880 --> 02:38:11.697 hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate 02:38:11.780 --> 02:38:15.417 people about their sex lives. I mean, it is in a way, despite 02:38:15.500 --> 02:38:21.300 having views that we, we may not agree with about sexuality, 02:38:22.140 --> 02:38:27.097 uh, it was, it was, it was generally humane in the way of just kind of leaving 02:38:27.180 --> 02:38:28.040 people alone. 02:38:28.920 --> 02:38:32.797 - I mean, that said, there's some... I'm just on Perplexity, looked 02:38:32.880 --> 02:38:39.880 up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality. They're pretty harsh on, like adultery 02:38:40.140 --> 02:38:43.520 and just getting freaky with it. 02:38:43.660 --> 02:38:48.617 - No, Justinian was more zealous in this matter, definitely. 02:38:48.700 --> 02:38:52.380 - Even though he married a sex worker. 02:38:53.400 --> 02:38:55.000 - Well, sex work wasn't illegal. 02:38:56.540 --> 02:38:58.337 - Right, but it's a bit spicy. 02:38:58.420 --> 02:39:02.300 - Yes. And in fact, it was illegal for a senator to marry 02:39:02.500 --> 02:39:05.050 someone from such a disreputable profession. 02:39:05.400 --> 02:39:10.260 And he got his uncle to pass a law changing that rule-... so that he could. 02:39:11.160 --> 02:39:14.320 - Well. Love knows no bounds. 02:39:14.520 --> 02:39:17.257 - Actually, Justinian kind of says that in one of his laws. 02:39:17.340 --> 02:39:20.687 - Oh, wow. - No, he clearly loved her. There, there's no question. 02:39:20.770 --> 02:39:24.397 - This actual love. I mean, this, you have to like this guy. Starts as a peasant. 02:39:24.480 --> 02:39:28.277 Surround himself by all kinds of weirdos just because they 02:39:28.360 --> 02:39:31.717 were good at what they did, and it doesn't really matter, class or not. 02:39:31.800 --> 02:39:36.580 - Yes, but there's a lot to be said against him, too. Um, I like so much. 02:39:37.980 --> 02:39:41.640 - Let's get into it. So he did launch wars of conquest. 02:39:42.560 --> 02:39:46.377 What was his view of war and conquest, and what maybe what 02:39:46.460 --> 02:39:50.637 are the things we should mention in terms of expansionary wars? 02:39:50.720 --> 02:39:53.950 - He thought he was authorized by God to reconquer the lost provinces of 02:39:54.034 --> 02:39:58.400 the Western Roman Empire, and when he did so, that was proof that God favored him. 02:39:59.620 --> 02:40:03.557 And he was generally opportunistic about it and for the most part, kind 02:40:03.640 --> 02:40:07.457 of successful in that he intervened in the most 02:40:07.540 --> 02:40:11.437 critical moments of the histories of these barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the 02:40:11.520 --> 02:40:15.077 West, and exploited their weaknesses and took them 02:40:15.160 --> 02:40:18.797 over. Now, in the process, many of these provinces were ravaged by 02:40:18.880 --> 02:40:25.297 war Italy for decades. He overstretched his resources, leaving his 02:40:25.380 --> 02:40:31.800 successors with a much more dangerous situation to defend. 02:40:32.360 --> 02:40:36.260 and he disbanded certain armies that were meant to protect Constantinople, 02:40:36.640 --> 02:40:40.200 sent them to Italy, for example. This weakened the home front. 02:40:41.160 --> 02:40:45.057 So he left a very difficult legacy for his successors in that way. 02:40:45.140 --> 02:40:48.837 Plus, some of the provinces that he conquered were so like 02:40:48.920 --> 02:40:52.770 Italy, I don't think it could even pay for itself after a certain point. 02:40:53.020 --> 02:40:56.517 so I'm not sure that some of those decisions were the best ones. North 02:40:56.600 --> 02:41:02.060 Africa, yeah, probably that paid off. Italy and southern Spain, not so sure. 02:41:02.280 --> 02:41:06.840 - So that's one of the big criticisms is even though there was conquest, 02:41:07.760 --> 02:41:13.000 it was overextended, and-... those lands were not economically stable. 02:41:13.480 --> 02:41:15.680 - Yeah, and - Broke. AKA. 02:41:15.960 --> 02:41:19.400 - Conquest is not just good, you know, in itself. I mean, this is... 02:41:20.240 --> 02:41:23.603 I know that some rulers in history are called the Great simply because they 02:41:23.686 --> 02:41:27.382 conquered something. But that's, no, that's not enough. I mean, 02:41:27.466 --> 02:41:29.160 I know that rulers do this, 02:41:29.900 --> 02:41:33.557 but if we're to compare them to each other we should at least 02:41:33.640 --> 02:41:37.577 expect that they have a plan or that it works out well in the end, let's 02:41:37.660 --> 02:41:39.960 say, and I don't think that many of these did. 02:41:40.580 --> 02:41:44.060 - I should say that as far as historians go, 02:41:44.660 --> 02:41:48.500 I think you don't give too many points on the conquest front. 02:41:49.260 --> 02:41:50.780 - Personally, I? No, I don't. 02:41:51.060 --> 02:41:56.760 - Yeah, so your value comes from is a leader implementing lasting 02:41:58.080 --> 02:42:02.037 change, like a stable- - Was he good for his subjects? 02:42:02.120 --> 02:42:05.240 Were they living better because of him than otherwise? 02:42:05.600 --> 02:42:10.677 - And also, like, longer, like, the long- term nature of it, not just- 02:42:10.760 --> 02:42:12.957 ... not just, like, a temporary thing. 02:42:13.040 --> 02:42:17.960 - Right. Are you strengthening institutions that benefit your subjects? 02:42:18.580 --> 02:42:22.377 That. And some he did, some not. So look, in order to send 02:42:22.460 --> 02:42:26.237 those armies west to make the conquests, he stripped the 02:42:26.320 --> 02:42:29.977 east of armies, so the Persians could just march in and, like, destroyed 02:42:30.060 --> 02:42:33.480 Antioch. Like, that's a major strategic failure, 02:42:34.380 --> 02:42:38.041 and I don't think you get a pass for conquering North Africa by surrendering 02:42:38.124 --> 02:42:38.958 Syria. 02:42:39.540 --> 02:42:44.760 - He did rebuild Constantinople and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia. 02:42:44.860 --> 02:42:48.740 - Yes, after he and his soldiers set fire to it. Yes. I- 02:42:48.840 --> 02:42:52.439 in the Nika insurrection. So this is when the people of the capital rise up against 02:42:52.523 --> 02:42:53.356 him, 02:42:53.460 --> 02:42:57.317 and there's, like about 10 days of street fighting, and he brings in some armies, 02:42:57.400 --> 02:43:00.817 and eventually he orders his armies to slaughter the 02:43:00.900 --> 02:43:04.637 protesters, leaving more than 30,000 dead. Like, this is an 02:43:04.720 --> 02:43:08.637 enormous number. And a lot of Constantinople 02:43:08.720 --> 02:43:12.497 burned in the process, and yeah, he rebuilt it. So his building is 02:43:12.580 --> 02:43:16.457 considered one of his great points. He built Hagia Sophia, for example, which 02:43:16.540 --> 02:43:22.997 is a magnificent church, like, hands down. It's just a fascinating monument to study, 02:43:23.080 --> 02:43:26.917 too. And yeah, that was, that was him, too. I'm trying 02:43:27.000 --> 02:43:30.957 to give you a sense here that the good and the bad are mixed in such equal measure 02:43:31.040 --> 02:43:35.417 that, like Buridan's ass, I can't decide which-... which bale of hay to put him on. 02:43:35.500 --> 02:43:37.737 - But there's a grand scale to the good and the bad. 02:43:37.820 --> 02:43:41.940 - Yes, yes. - For many people, that's what makes for a, uh- 02:43:42.260 --> 02:43:46.120 ... top 10 emperor list. Uh, what about the plague? 02:43:46.800 --> 02:43:49.200 - Well, he wasn't responsible for that at least. 02:43:49.780 --> 02:43:50.617 - All right. - Okay. 02:43:50.700 --> 02:43:56.477 - The plague of Justinian-... AKA 541 AD. So some historians claim 02:43:56.560 --> 02:43:59.410 that it killed half the population and ruined the empire. 02:44:00.000 --> 02:44:01.580 You are skeptical on this view. 02:44:02.020 --> 02:44:05.860 - Yes. So this is a bubonic plague. 02:44:06.280 --> 02:44:10.157 Um, which lasts more or less for two centuries. It 02:44:10.240 --> 02:44:14.037 comes and it goes, and it's kind of endemic to large parts of the 02:44:14.120 --> 02:44:18.017 world. 541 is when it starts to break out in 02:44:18.100 --> 02:44:21.900 the empire, in Constantinople and other cities, and it spreads. 02:44:22.780 --> 02:44:26.697 There's been a lot of debate about this recently because now we've 02:44:26.780 --> 02:44:30.430 actually isolated the pathogen. It's Yersinia pestis. Like, we know this. 02:44:31.040 --> 02:44:33.957 Just as of, like, a generation ago, this was just guesswork. 02:44:34.040 --> 02:44:37.897 But now there's all of this new, like, laboratory science work that's come in to 02:44:37.980 --> 02:44:39.997 fill in some of the gaps in history. 02:44:40.080 --> 02:44:44.357 - That's so cool. - It is. It is. There are lots of discussions about that. And 02:44:44.440 --> 02:44:50.700 so the study of diseases and virology have just become much more important lately. 02:44:51.960 --> 02:44:55.797 It still doesn't tell you, however, like mortality rates and historical 02:44:55.880 --> 02:44:59.577 impact. Like, for that, you still need standard old-fashioned 02:44:59.660 --> 02:45:01.380 non-laboratory historical work. 02:45:01.800 --> 02:45:04.814 And there's a debate about the impact of this plague. It's ongoing, 02:45:04.898 --> 02:45:05.798 I should say that. 02:45:06.660 --> 02:45:10.217 And some scholars argue for a kind of maximalist position 02:45:10.300 --> 02:45:15.220 of 50%. I think that would have brought this society to a halt. 02:45:16.150 --> 02:45:22.470 Just logistically speaking. And so I believe in a much more moderate impact. 02:45:22.870 --> 02:45:25.610 - And the real impact is what? The tax base shrinks? 02:45:25.830 --> 02:45:29.450 - Oh. Oh, yeah. The tax base would shrink instantly. 02:45:29.890 --> 02:45:33.787 You wouldn't be able to recruit armies. You know, there would be massive social 02:45:33.870 --> 02:45:37.727 dislocation. Like what happens in the, in the Black 02:45:37.810 --> 02:45:41.687 Death in Europe in the 14th century. Like, we have very good records 02:45:41.770 --> 02:45:44.973 for what happened to those societies, and basically everything that they were doing 02:45:45.057 --> 02:45:45.707 stopped for a few 02:45:45.790 --> 02:45:49.667 years until they sort of tried to put things back together again. This 02:45:49.750 --> 02:45:51.500 does not happen in the 6th century. 02:45:52.070 --> 02:45:56.027 In fact, Justinian is at that time waging war on something like 02:45:56.110 --> 02:45:57.630 four or five different fronts. 02:45:58.810 --> 02:46:02.600 If you read the narratives of those wars, there's no pause. There's 02:46:02.750 --> 02:46:06.507 no, there's no impact from the plague on the 02:46:06.590 --> 02:46:08.880 conduct of those wars. They just continue on. 02:46:09.250 --> 02:46:13.107 Taxation continues. The courts continue. Like, you just don't see it in 02:46:13.190 --> 02:46:16.947 the narrative, and so I think that there's a much less 02:46:17.030 --> 02:46:19.530 impact than, certainly than 50%, yeah. 02:46:19.870 --> 02:46:24.750 - So this sets the stage for a tumultuous 7th century. 02:46:25.390 --> 02:46:27.490 - Yeah, you could call it that. Yes. 02:46:27.910 --> 02:46:34.910 - So what is the legacy of Justinian, in terms of how he left the empire 02:46:35.610 --> 02:46:37.790 leading into the 7th century? 02:46:38.490 --> 02:46:42.427 - Well, he left it overextended, so his successors 02:46:42.510 --> 02:46:46.180 had to deal with many more problems along many more fronts, 02:46:46.990 --> 02:46:50.927 With fewer military forces concentrated in what we might call the 02:46:51.010 --> 02:46:52.860 homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire. 02:46:53.890 --> 02:46:57.747 And so that made the, the center vulnerable too, and so you start 02:46:57.830 --> 02:47:04.370 to get raids into the Balkans and, you know, it enters a kind of vicious cycle 02:47:05.010 --> 02:47:06.030 again. 02:47:07.110 --> 02:47:09.268 now, not all of this was Justinian's fault. I mean, 02:47:09.351 --> 02:47:10.647 the plague definitely had some 02:47:10.730 --> 02:47:16.507 impact. But I wouldn't blame everything on his 02:47:16.590 --> 02:47:20.540 successors, as is sometimes done, like they mishandled the situation. 02:47:21.430 --> 02:47:26.590 He... Yeah, he left them a very difficult situation to deal with. 02:47:27.130 --> 02:47:29.680 - So speaking of which, let's talk about Heraclius. 02:47:30.610 --> 02:47:34.430 He didn't make, he didn't make your list either, which is a shocker 02:47:35.110 --> 02:47:38.447 for a lot of people. Perhaps you can describe the nuance of that, but 02:47:38.530 --> 02:47:41.627 he took over the Roman Empire on the verge of 02:47:41.710 --> 02:47:48.710 extinction. Persians at the gates, treasury empty. So maybe first tell the 02:47:49.450 --> 02:47:53.430 full saga of the Roman-Persian War that threatened the empire's existence. 02:47:53.630 --> 02:47:56.650 - Sure. Well, he wasn't entirely, you know, 02:47:57.390 --> 02:48:01.027 free of blame for the situation that he inherited. 02:48:01.110 --> 02:48:05.387 He was in part responsible for it. So he doesn't get a pass on that. 02:48:05.470 --> 02:48:10.270 So Heraclius is basically a rebel and a usurper. So 02:48:11.610 --> 02:48:18.610 for various reasons Rome and Persia are at war starting around 602. 02:48:18.990 --> 02:48:22.710 and the, the Persian shah at this time, Khosrow II, 02:48:23.270 --> 02:48:26.870 has basically decided on a policy of conquest, 02:48:27.010 --> 02:48:30.060 not just raiding. Like, I'm gonna go in and take your people, 02:48:31.090 --> 02:48:34.640 some cattle, and some statues, and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia. 02:48:35.210 --> 02:48:38.947 He starts what... I mean, I think there's some evolution in his thinking and his 02:48:39.030 --> 02:48:42.290 planning about this, but pretty soon during the 02:48:42.470 --> 02:48:46.087 600 and the aughts, he realizes that there's 02:48:46.170 --> 02:48:50.027 potential for actual permanent territorial gain here, and his armies start moving 02:48:50.110 --> 02:48:54.050 in. And the Roman Emperor is this guy called Phocas, who is himself a usurper, 02:48:54.810 --> 02:48:58.587 a military background, and he now faces a rebellion 02:48:58.670 --> 02:49:02.990 by Heraclius, who, whose base is in North Africa at this time, like around Carthage. 02:49:04.150 --> 02:49:09.690 And they have a civil war for three years, 608 to 610. 02:49:10.200 --> 02:49:13.590 That civil war that Heraclius initiates 02:49:14.470 --> 02:49:18.227 causes a diversion of Roman armies to the civil war away 02:49:18.310 --> 02:49:22.070 from the Persian front. So it's a massive gift to the Persians. 02:49:22.730 --> 02:49:26.367 Plus, a lot of the fighting takes place in Egypt, and Egypt was a 02:49:26.450 --> 02:49:31.720 province that had up until that point not really been harmed by war. Now it is, 02:49:32.530 --> 02:49:36.400 right? So Heraclius's forces, he's not in Egypt, but his backers, 02:49:37.390 --> 02:49:41.027 are fighting a civil war in Egypt, so that province is 02:49:41.110 --> 02:49:45.027 now, you know, ravaged in part. The 02:49:45.110 --> 02:49:49.087 Persians make tremendous gains in the east. Heraclius heads straight for 02:49:49.170 --> 02:49:53.087 Constantinople during all of this, and to make a long story short, he manages 02:49:53.170 --> 02:49:56.760 to take Constantinople, execute Phocas, and become emperor, 02:49:57.210 --> 02:50:01.047 right? But now he's facing a problem that's much worse than it was 02:50:01.130 --> 02:50:06.830 when, before he started the rebellion. The reason why Heraclius is sort of 02:50:06.930 --> 02:50:10.807 lionized in some... Well, actually, there's a very long tradition of doing 02:50:10.890 --> 02:50:13.567 this, which goes back to the Middle Ages. In the Western Middle Ages, 02:50:13.650 --> 02:50:16.587 Heraclius was sometimes considered, like, the first crusader. 02:50:16.670 --> 02:50:17.570 - Oh, interesting. 02:50:17.910 --> 02:50:21.367 - Yeah, yeah. So there's all this medieval literature about Heraclius as being a 02:50:21.450 --> 02:50:23.510 a proto-crusader type and all that, 02:50:24.350 --> 02:50:28.147 For reconquering, like, Jerusalem from the Persians and 02:50:28.230 --> 02:50:32.190 restoring the True Cross and all that. So he had this kind of 02:50:32.290 --> 02:50:34.920 aura, and I think his modern 02:50:35.350 --> 02:50:39.300 admirers are basically just continuing... I mean, they might not know it, 02:50:39.530 --> 02:50:43.206 but they're kind of continuing this very, very long tradition of treating Heraclius 02:50:43.289 --> 02:50:48.610 as this heroic holy warrior. Anyway, from my standpoint, 02:50:49.670 --> 02:50:53.290 it's a complete wash. In other words, yes, he 02:50:53.430 --> 02:50:57.367 does beat the Persians and he gets, like, 02:50:57.450 --> 02:51:01.227 in my view, full credit for that, though he did it with, I think, the 02:51:01.310 --> 02:51:05.050 help of some Turkish allies from Central Asia. These were, I think, 02:51:05.630 --> 02:51:09.207 the major component of his success at the very end. But no, 02:51:09.290 --> 02:51:13.400 no. So he held the Persians off and ultimately defeated them, yes. 02:51:14.210 --> 02:51:16.287 And then he loses everything to the Arabs. 02:51:16.370 --> 02:51:23.370 - So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s, but the Persian War is 602 to 628. 02:51:23.890 --> 02:51:24.467 - Yes. 02:51:24.550 --> 02:51:31.360 - So what can be said about this what seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess 02:51:31.540 --> 02:51:37.600 Persians - So the war was costly initially only for the Romans. 02:51:38.660 --> 02:51:42.257 the eastern provinces were conquered by Persia. That means Syria, 02:51:42.340 --> 02:51:45.000 Palestine, Egypt. So that's a loss. 02:51:45.120 --> 02:51:48.670 You lose all that revenue, and then they start raiding into Asia Minor. 02:51:48.800 --> 02:51:52.051 - Yes. - By the way, this is exactly what the Arabs would do, you know, 02:51:52.134 --> 02:51:55.002 just a couple decades later. They would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt, 02:51:55.085 --> 02:51:57.335 and they would start raiding into Asia Minor. 02:51:57.620 --> 02:52:01.237 So almost like this phase of East Roman history begins 02:52:01.320 --> 02:52:05.237 already during the Persian invasion. It's just a kind of a prelude. It was, in 02:52:05.320 --> 02:52:08.420 fact, the Arabs that would do that for the next few centuries. 02:52:08.720 --> 02:52:13.300 So Heraclius, it takes him a very long time to get organized, 02:52:14.120 --> 02:52:17.877 In fact, something like 15 years, and it's not 02:52:17.960 --> 02:52:21.760 entirely clear, like, what he's doing all this time. Um, 02:52:22.360 --> 02:52:29.360 but he ultimately manages to defeat the Persians by waging these really 02:52:29.820 --> 02:52:33.597 spectacular, weird campaigns in the East. He 02:52:33.680 --> 02:52:37.617 decides to strike into the Persian heartland, 02:52:37.700 --> 02:52:41.057 as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus region, and then he goes into 02:52:41.140 --> 02:52:44.597 Mesopotamia. So not to try to defeat their armies that 02:52:44.680 --> 02:52:48.400 are rampaging around Asia Minor or even besieging his capital 02:52:48.740 --> 02:52:52.677 in 626. The Persians and the Avars, this people from... This 02:52:52.760 --> 02:52:56.637 nomadic warrior group that settled in roughly modern 02:52:56.720 --> 02:53:00.170 Hungary, they're besieging Constantinople. Heraclius doesn't even go. 02:53:01.040 --> 02:53:04.697 And he's just kind of preparing his armies in the East, and he strikes the 02:53:04.780 --> 02:53:08.257 Persians right where it hurts, and this now begins to 02:53:08.340 --> 02:53:12.160 degrade the Persian heartland and their infrastructure 02:53:12.780 --> 02:53:15.933 because remember, both of these empires are going to be in shambles by the time 02:53:16.016 --> 02:53:16.517 the Arabs come 02:53:16.600 --> 02:53:19.342 along, and this is what enables the Arabs to conquer them so quickly. 02:53:19.426 --> 02:53:21.226 I mean, they've destroyed each other 02:53:22.040 --> 02:53:25.897 in these wars. And eventually Heraclius calls in his Turkish allies, and they 02:53:25.980 --> 02:53:29.877 go on a field trip through Mesopotamia, and 02:53:29.960 --> 02:53:33.440 this causes a coup in, in Persia, and Khosrow is killed. 02:53:34.060 --> 02:53:37.757 - Is there something to be said, a little bit of texture to the 02:53:37.840 --> 02:53:41.657 motivations of the different empires and the different groups involved? So the 02:53:41.740 --> 02:53:45.097 East Roman Empire, the Persian Empire, and the Islamic 02:53:45.180 --> 02:53:48.800 Caliphates, were they after conquering? Were they 02:53:48.960 --> 02:53:52.717 after expansion? Were they after more like raiding 02:53:52.800 --> 02:53:55.840 for financial benefits? What was the motivation? 02:53:56.160 --> 02:53:59.977 - So in the past, the Persian Shahs basically were interested in raiding, and 02:54:00.060 --> 02:54:03.977 they also had an interest in manpower. So all of those Mesopotamian 02:54:04.060 --> 02:54:07.637 agricultural estates won't till themselves. So they were kind of 02:54:07.720 --> 02:54:11.383 insatiable for agricultural workforces and specialized craftsmen and people like 02:54:11.466 --> 02:54:14.280 that. so they would go into the empire and get them. 02:54:15.420 --> 02:54:18.880 But in this phase, it seems that Khosrow 02:54:19.040 --> 02:54:22.757 II is taking really to heart the idea that the Persian 02:54:22.840 --> 02:54:25.240 Empire should really extend to the Mediterranean 02:54:25.820 --> 02:54:29.607 as it did in, like, Achaemenid times, right, in, in ancient history, the empire 02:54:29.690 --> 02:54:33.637 that Alexander conquered. So it seems that the, the Sassanians, 02:54:33.720 --> 02:54:37.397 this is this dynasty, this Iranian dynasty that's ruling the Persian 02:54:37.480 --> 02:54:41.397 Empire, of course, they were aware of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they 02:54:41.480 --> 02:54:46.300 would have these claims to reviving the former greatness of the Iranian Empire. 02:54:46.800 --> 02:54:50.597 So, you know, bathing in the Mediterranean Sea is something 02:54:50.680 --> 02:54:54.597 that many Near Eastern monarchs, you know, 02:54:54.680 --> 02:54:58.399 they did this as a sign of success. Anyway, for the Romans, 02:54:58.482 --> 02:54:59.900 it was sheer survival, 02:55:00.980 --> 02:55:04.917 Just desperate survival 'cause they knew that this was a war 02:55:05.000 --> 02:55:06.437 that could end the Roman state. 02:55:06.520 --> 02:55:10.720 - I mean, they're already on the verge of being ended. 02:55:10.860 --> 02:55:15.500 And here, their defensive wars of survival. 02:55:15.820 --> 02:55:22.820 - Yeah. So it's pretty clear that initially the goal of Arab Muslim warfare 02:55:23.526 --> 02:55:27.980 is to unify Arabia. That is, that all Arabs should be 02:55:28.240 --> 02:55:35.240 Muslim and should be unified into this religious kind of state, whatever, that 02:55:35.780 --> 02:55:38.639 the prophet and his successors had created. Now, 02:55:38.722 --> 02:55:40.500 then they start striking out, 02:55:41.520 --> 02:55:47.900 Into Rome and into Iran. It's not entirely clear, like, why. Now, 02:55:49.060 --> 02:55:52.540 there are obvious reasons. Like, I mean, we don't-- It's not, like, a 02:55:52.660 --> 02:55:55.927 huge historical mystery why a, you know, recently 02:55:56.010 --> 02:56:01.097 formed successful army will decide to take on two very weak opponents- 02:56:01.180 --> 02:56:04.897 ... who are on their doorstep. Like-... this is not, you know, complicated. 02:56:04.980 --> 02:56:08.460 - Yeah, they're pretty effective at military-... conquest. 02:56:08.580 --> 02:56:12.217 - Yeah. But they're striking both empires from a direction that those 02:56:12.300 --> 02:56:15.997 empires had never prepared to defend from. Arabia was just 02:56:16.080 --> 02:56:20.000 not, "Oh, you might get some occasional raiders, but you're never gonna get an 02:56:20.180 --> 02:56:24.117 army that's coming out that can potentially conquer you." So 02:56:24.200 --> 02:56:26.980 the defensive orientations are all wrong. 02:56:27.460 --> 02:56:30.310 And these two empires have gone through this massive war, 02:56:31.140 --> 02:56:34.877 that has destabilized them. They're, they're low on manpower, low on 02:56:34.960 --> 02:56:38.837 resources. The outcome is almost kind of inevitable. I don't think there's a 02:56:38.920 --> 02:56:39.753 great mystery. 02:56:40.520 --> 02:56:44.960 - And the effect of that is they stripped away the richest provinces 02:56:45.780 --> 02:56:47.120 of the Roman Empire. 02:56:47.940 --> 02:56:52.677 - Yes, Egypt in particular. That's, that means now you can't feed Constantinople. 02:56:52.760 --> 02:56:54.477 Like we talked about the grain from Egypt, 02:56:54.560 --> 02:56:57.560 right, that came to Constantinople. You don't have that now. 02:56:57.800 --> 02:57:00.997 And so that means that the population of Constantinople will decline 02:57:01.080 --> 02:57:03.460 dramatically over the next few decades. 02:57:03.820 --> 02:57:06.090 - So how, how does the empire rebuild itself, 02:57:07.620 --> 02:57:11.590 you know, restabilize? Because it's not, it doesn't collapse there, right? 02:57:11.940 --> 02:57:16.100 - Yes. - It stays, it survives. There's interesting low 02:57:16.220 --> 02:57:18.680 points for the empire where it still survives. 02:57:18.820 --> 02:57:19.920 - This is one of them. 02:57:20.320 --> 02:57:23.120 - And that is as interesting as the survival at the top, 02:57:23.960 --> 02:57:27.397 and the flourishing survival at the bottom is also super 02:57:27.480 --> 02:57:31.700 interesting. So how do-- What happens? How does it kinda stabilize? 02:57:32.240 --> 02:57:38.048 - Very slowly. This is a painful process, and it takes them centuries, 02:57:38.132 --> 02:57:43.390 you could say. First you gotta stop the bleeding, just try to hold the line. 02:57:43.510 --> 02:57:46.807 It takes them decades to just to hold a line. Like, they get 02:57:46.890 --> 02:57:53.370 pummeled by the Arabs for decades in the seventh century until finally by, 6- 02:57:54.110 --> 02:57:58.270 660s, 670, they finally begin to beat them. 02:57:59.350 --> 02:58:05.110 Beat them on land and hold the line, on the sea. 02:58:06.010 --> 02:58:09.630 And so we now have an investment in fleets. 02:58:10.470 --> 02:58:13.930 Eventually, you get the Greek fire, which is the flamethrowers. 02:58:14.790 --> 02:58:18.367 And when the Arabs try to take Constantinople, these 02:58:18.450 --> 02:58:22.287 attempts are defeated, like, twice, and that 02:58:22.370 --> 02:58:26.950 ensures the survival of this, of the Roman state in some form. 02:58:27.710 --> 02:58:29.630 - How were the flamethrowers used? 02:58:29.930 --> 02:58:31.544 - Ah, yes. This is an interesting question. 02:58:31.628 --> 02:58:33.287 We're still kind of debating that. 02:58:33.370 --> 02:58:34.587 - Oh, it's not fully understood. 02:58:34.670 --> 02:58:36.070 - Well, it's a state secret. 02:58:37.320 --> 02:58:41.167 They didn't want this getting out, so they kept it pretty well. The fact 02:58:41.250 --> 02:58:44.807 that we're debating it will tell you that they were pretty good at keeping secrets. 02:58:44.890 --> 02:58:51.890 So possibly through a pressure valve. Right? So you have this flammable compound 02:58:55.390 --> 02:58:58.350 whose preparation and components is also a state secret. 02:58:59.290 --> 02:59:03.167 So there's specialized-- There's a corps of engineers that prepares this and 02:59:03.250 --> 02:59:04.110 deploys it. 02:59:04.930 --> 02:59:11.930 Um, and it's possibly through a heated pressurized container with a spigot, 02:59:12.230 --> 02:59:18.990 let's say, that unleashes this thing through a nozzle, and it's lit and 02:59:20.030 --> 02:59:23.610 basically spews flaming napalm 02:59:24.990 --> 02:59:29.727 on other ships, and it will continue to burn even when it's on the water. 02:59:29.810 --> 02:59:33.727 Right? On the top. So, like, you can't, like, swim away or anything. So it's 02:59:33.810 --> 02:59:37.467 this very, very destructive weapon. Terrifying. They used it 02:59:37.550 --> 02:59:41.410 against Vikings too. This is much later. So once the Vikings show up- 02:59:41.690 --> 02:59:44.947 ... Like, when they would raid attacked 02:59:45.030 --> 02:59:49.060 Constantinople in the 940s, then again in the 1040s- 02:59:50.270 --> 02:59:54.370 ... Yeah, the Romans used Greek fire fleets to just incinerate the... 02:59:55.410 --> 02:59:57.450 And that'll teach Vikings. 02:59:59.270 --> 03:00:03.107 Yes. If you're in that situation, you'd rather serve under 03:00:03.190 --> 03:00:05.870 the emperors than attack them. 03:00:06.870 --> 03:00:10.550 - And so this is a kind of nuclear weapon level state secret. 03:00:10.750 --> 03:00:12.750 - They even had it in hand grenade form. 03:00:14.450 --> 03:00:16.150 - This is a real thing? - Oh, yes. 03:00:16.790 --> 03:00:20.090 - Hand grenade form. - Yes. So it's a, it's like a clay container, 03:00:20.650 --> 03:00:24.267 with the compound, and it has, like, some sort of 03:00:24.350 --> 03:00:27.280 fuse that you light on the outside and you throw it. Now, 03:00:28.250 --> 03:00:30.109 you throw it... You can throw it against people, 03:00:30.193 --> 03:00:31.647 but it's not gonna be that effective. 03:00:31.730 --> 03:00:34.464 Maybe you burn a person, whatever. You just wasted a hand grenade for, 03:00:34.547 --> 03:00:40.230 you know, one person. It's most effective against things like, uh, siege engines. 03:00:40.850 --> 03:00:45.090 Uh, so you, you throw that on a wooden frame and, you know, yeah. 03:00:45.330 --> 03:00:49.180 - This is incredible. So this is one of the things that's finally stabilized, 03:00:49.630 --> 03:00:52.630 Stopped the bleeding from a military perspective. 03:00:52.770 --> 03:00:56.005 - Yeah, eventually. Now, now remember, they've pulled the armies back into Asia 03:00:56.088 --> 03:01:00.550 Minor, so they're, they're beginning to defend and fortify Asia 03:01:00.670 --> 03:01:03.668 Minor. Now you have to find ways to pay and support and feed all of these 03:01:03.751 --> 03:01:07.587 soldiers, and this is a whole administrative- it's a wrenching 03:01:07.670 --> 03:01:11.487 administrative readjustment. But they go through it. It takes them a long time. 03:01:11.570 --> 03:01:15.420 Eventually, they emerge with a different kind of strategic logistical system. 03:01:15.650 --> 03:01:20.070 - Just a smaller, harder-... core-... of the empire. 03:01:20.250 --> 03:01:21.900 - That's right. Very militarized. 03:01:22.610 --> 03:01:27.807 - Very militarized. And then in the eighth century, the, the second Arab siege 03:01:27.890 --> 03:01:30.590 of Constantinople, that somehow fails. 03:01:31.070 --> 03:01:34.170 - In the early eighth century, yes, that was the second siege. 03:01:34.330 --> 03:01:38.147 - Yeah, the early eighth century. So why, why did it fail? Can you 03:01:38.230 --> 03:01:43.587 tell the story of that siege? That was really the empire hanging by, by a thread. 03:01:43.670 --> 03:01:47.440 - Yes, but it happened to have a very competent man in charge. This is, 03:01:47.530 --> 03:01:51.407 uh, Leo III, and he's an emperor who has- he's a usurper. He's just 03:01:51.490 --> 03:01:55.447 seized power. They knew that this massive Arab attack was 03:01:55.530 --> 03:01:58.967 coming, and so it's quite possible that the Roman 03:01:59.050 --> 03:02:02.447 elites, you know, preferred to put someone 03:02:02.530 --> 03:02:06.370 capable in, in power at that moment. The city was very well prepared. 03:02:07.090 --> 03:02:09.339 I encourage people in the audience to, to go and read the, 03:02:09.423 --> 03:02:10.727 the sources that we have for that. 03:02:10.810 --> 03:02:14.527 You, you can find many accounts of it online. It, it was just very, very 03:02:14.610 --> 03:02:18.590 well done. He also had Bulgar allies. 03:02:18.970 --> 03:02:21.151 So these are the, the Bulgars who had just, you know, 03:02:21.235 --> 03:02:22.707 crossed the Danube just, like, just 03:02:22.790 --> 03:02:26.687 a few years earlier actually and settled south of the Danube, you 03:02:26.770 --> 03:02:30.740 know, where eventually, you know, Bulgaria emerged. So he had Bulgar allies, 03:02:31.230 --> 03:02:34.987 and he used the, the Greek fire very, very strategically. He used his 03:02:35.070 --> 03:02:38.767 own fleet. He contained the Arabs to certain places where they kind of 03:02:38.850 --> 03:02:42.490 starved and wore them down. Yeah, it's just very well done. 03:02:42.910 --> 03:02:44.077 - From a military perspective. 03:02:44.160 --> 03:02:45.660 - From a military perspective. 03:02:45.850 --> 03:02:52.187 - Well, was there, was it the, the walls, the navy, the weather, the 03:02:52.270 --> 03:02:57.970 diplomacy, just good luck that helped Constantinople hold? 03:02:58.170 --> 03:03:00.206 - I don't see much role for good luck there. I mean, 03:03:00.289 --> 03:03:01.887 I think he had it all pretty planned out. 03:03:01.970 --> 03:03:04.563 It was all of the elements that you mentioned. And yeah, he, 03:03:04.646 --> 03:03:09.587 he just deployed them very, very astutely and went on to rule 03:03:09.670 --> 03:03:13.400 after that for another 20-some years, and his son continued. Um, 03:03:13.990 --> 03:03:16.736 they, they formed a dynasty. It was-- We call it the Isaurian dynasty, 03:03:16.819 --> 03:03:18.519 though they were not from Isauria. 03:03:19.190 --> 03:03:23.040 - And then from that, the fascinating thing that we mentioned about religion, 03:03:23.440 --> 03:03:27.390 there was a whole stretch of time marked by intense 03:03:27.530 --> 03:03:31.070 internal religious conflicts over iconoclasm. 03:03:32.090 --> 03:03:35.807 Maybe you can clarify this, but so iconoclasm, of course, is whether 03:03:35.890 --> 03:03:39.540 sacred images, icons, should be venerated or destroyed. 03:03:40.330 --> 03:03:44.017 This had major political and theological stakes. The 03:03:44.100 --> 03:03:47.940 seemingly smallest things can have the biggest of conflicts. 03:03:48.180 --> 03:03:50.960 - Yeah. You've been in an Orthodox church. 03:03:51.220 --> 03:03:54.360 Have you seen all the icons and the just painting everywhere? 03:03:54.920 --> 03:03:58.780 Every space that you can imagine is covered in either icons or 03:03:58.880 --> 03:04:02.480 images or iconography of saints. All right. That's a result of this. 03:04:03.520 --> 03:04:05.905 No, that's not what Christian churches used to be like, 03:04:05.989 --> 03:04:07.539 at least not in Constantinople. 03:04:08.220 --> 03:04:13.860 But his dynasty basically tried to limit, 03:04:14.760 --> 03:04:18.617 Or remove images from churches, and ultimately that 03:04:18.700 --> 03:04:22.030 policy failed. And the other side that 03:04:22.520 --> 03:04:26.457 wanted images or liked images, or let me put it differently, thought that images 03:04:26.540 --> 03:04:29.797 were not only appropriate but helpful in the context of Christian 03:04:29.880 --> 03:04:33.717 worship prevailed. And so gradually the churches began 03:04:33.800 --> 03:04:40.800 to fill up with icons, lots of icons. They're almost like, you know, like a 03:04:41.220 --> 03:04:45.060 catchword for Orthodox, you know, devotion. Um, 03:04:45.260 --> 03:04:48.571 I have icons at home. You have a little corner in the house and you have little 03:04:48.654 --> 03:04:49.488 iconography. 03:04:49.660 --> 03:04:53.497 Um, anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox person, but I... even I can't get away 03:04:53.580 --> 03:04:54.413 from them. 03:04:55.410 --> 03:04:57.187 - But that has serious consequences. I mean, that was- 03:04:57.270 --> 03:05:00.860 ... serious. It was an extremely serious internal religious conflict. 03:05:01.060 --> 03:05:08.060 - Well, okay, so one asterisk on that. In my research, I did not find a 03:05:09.140 --> 03:05:13.780 popular interest in this matter. Like- - Oh, interesting -... yeah, I don't- 03:05:14.220 --> 03:05:18.477 - So this is an overblown- - Yes. Yes, socially completely overblown. 03:05:18.560 --> 03:05:22.480 - Oh, this is one of those things where religious folks will write the 03:05:22.620 --> 03:05:24.520 story of history. - That's it. Got it. 03:05:24.780 --> 03:05:25.730 - Ah. - You got it. 03:05:26.560 --> 03:05:30.417 I could not find... There were, like, a few emperors, and there's some bishops 03:05:30.500 --> 03:05:34.177 and abbots and monks. Like, I don't know, maybe 100, 200 03:05:34.260 --> 03:05:37.760 people are, like, seriously invested in this, and they're going at it. 03:05:38.320 --> 03:05:40.760 But these are the people who write the texts. 03:05:41.580 --> 03:05:44.917 But they never mention, for example, that, oh, you know, the people of 03:05:45.000 --> 03:05:48.897 Constantinople, they rose up, and they demanded icons or not icons or 03:05:48.980 --> 03:05:50.077 anything like that. 03:05:50.160 --> 03:05:55.580 Nah, never. So in my view, this is one of those controversies that's 03:05:56.580 --> 03:06:00.227 only a few people really, really cared- 03:06:00.310 --> 03:06:04.260 ... about it, and unfortunately, they're the ones who wrote the sources. 03:06:04.820 --> 03:06:06.020 - So you always have to, 03:06:07.840 --> 03:06:11.677 Be very careful to consider the sources when you're reading about 03:06:11.760 --> 03:06:14.420 anything involving religious events. 03:06:14.600 --> 03:06:15.800 - Or any kind of events. 03:06:15.900 --> 03:06:21.068 - But certain things are more intensely, People are more intensely passionate 03:06:21.151 --> 03:06:24.497 about- ... and therefore they're going, that bias is going to- - Yeah, yeah 03:06:24.580 --> 03:06:28.387 -... bleed into the way you report the history. 03:06:28.470 --> 03:06:31.570 - Yeah. And not only that, when emperors changed their policy, 03:06:33.080 --> 03:06:37.000 almost everyone fell into line. They switched positions. 03:06:37.620 --> 03:06:41.297 It's like, "No, yeah, whatever. Put the images, take the images," like, whatever. 03:06:41.380 --> 03:06:45.130 I mean, like this isn't, they did not see this as central. Some people did, 03:06:45.580 --> 03:06:47.430 and they got very worked up about it. 03:06:48.280 --> 03:06:52.020 Anyway, but in the end, the pro-icon position won, 03:06:52.860 --> 03:06:56.097 and their view just began to fill up the space. 03:06:56.180 --> 03:07:02.057 Like, like it literally was filling up the churches, and it still does. 03:07:02.140 --> 03:07:08.464 - The thing is, we somehow took on the impossible task of talking about 03:07:08.547 --> 03:07:09.540 a thousand- 03:07:10.180 --> 03:07:12.657 - It'll defeat you, man. It'll defeat you every time. 03:07:12.740 --> 03:07:16.600 - I mean, there's a reason why you really wanna do a thousand-hour 03:07:16.700 --> 03:07:18.217 podcast on this, right? 03:07:18.300 --> 03:07:22.290 As, as, as you do, as there's so many incredible conversations about every 03:07:22.420 --> 03:07:26.297 single emperor, every single nuanced detail of the emperors. It really is a, is 03:07:26.380 --> 03:07:31.837 a thriving civilization. It's a thriving empire which in it 03:07:31.920 --> 03:07:35.800 contains so many lessons for even the modern times. But anyway, 03:07:35.900 --> 03:07:39.697 you have written one of the books is Streams of Gold, Rivers of 03:07:39.780 --> 03:07:46.577 Blood: The Rise and Fall of Byzantium, 955 AD to the First Crusade. So this 03:07:46.660 --> 03:07:50.397 period has... We talked about survival and some low 03:07:50.480 --> 03:07:54.460 points. This is a period where, once again, there's some flourishing. 03:07:55.520 --> 03:08:00.280 So by the 10th century in the Macedonian era, the empire is back. 03:08:01.360 --> 03:08:07.080 It's wealthy, it's culturally confident, and under emperors like Basil II, 03:08:08.060 --> 03:08:11.120 Who I think is in your top 10 list. 03:08:11.900 --> 03:08:15.810 it is expanding again, and this is a period that you 03:08:15.960 --> 03:08:19.877 describe in part in your book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So how did 03:08:19.960 --> 03:08:23.040 Byzantium go from surviving to expanding again? 03:08:23.800 --> 03:08:29.877 - So I wrote that book in part in order to test myself and see if I 03:08:29.960 --> 03:08:31.500 could write narrative. 03:08:31.760 --> 03:08:35.697 So I hadn't written a history narrative book up until that point. Everything 03:08:35.780 --> 03:08:37.680 I wrote was sort of analytical, right? 03:08:38.820 --> 03:08:42.577 And it was successful enough that a few years later, my editor asked me to 03:08:42.660 --> 03:08:45.997 write the big history, the new Roman Empire- - Yeah -... the thousand page- 03:08:46.080 --> 03:08:50.717 - Of the whole thing -... of the whole thing. And so I set for myself the 03:08:50.800 --> 03:08:54.520 task of explaining in this book, Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood, 03:08:55.560 --> 03:08:58.980 a very particular period that was marked by a 03:08:59.100 --> 03:09:06.100 sudden turn to conquest again after a long period of more or less defensive war. 955, 03:09:06.820 --> 03:09:10.360 there's a new military leadership is appointed, and 03:09:10.880 --> 03:09:14.720 the Romans go conquering again, especially in Cilicia, 03:09:14.960 --> 03:09:17.873 northern Syria, and Cyprus, and the Caucasus, 03:09:17.956 --> 03:09:20.220 and then eventually also Bulgaria. 03:09:22.320 --> 03:09:26.200 And then right afterwards, they have this generation plus 03:09:26.420 --> 03:09:30.277 period of stability and prosperity, and 03:09:30.360 --> 03:09:33.877 then they're hit by a triple whammy. These are three new 03:09:33.960 --> 03:09:37.797 attackers. So it's primarily the Seljuk Turks coming in from the 03:09:37.880 --> 03:09:41.580 east, some Pechenegs coming down from the north over the Danube, 03:09:42.480 --> 03:09:46.580 And the Normans in southern Italy. 03:09:47.140 --> 03:09:52.060 And under the pressure of this three-part attack, the, 03:09:52.980 --> 03:09:58.620 you know, this expansionist what had become more imperial state buckles. 03:09:58.940 --> 03:10:02.417 And enters another one of these crises, just like the one we 03:10:02.500 --> 03:10:05.996 described for the seventh century. You know, 03:10:06.080 --> 03:10:09.090 survives it by the skin of its teeth. 03:10:09.320 --> 03:10:13.217 And goes on again to rebuild and become prosperous, wealthy, and powerful 03:10:13.300 --> 03:10:15.697 again, as it does throughout its history. 03:10:15.780 --> 03:10:21.247 It's these cycles. So I just wanted to describe that iteration of that- 03:10:21.330 --> 03:10:24.660 ... that process, and that's what I do in that book. 03:10:25.020 --> 03:10:32.020 - So I think the traditional view, In this perfect storm of the 11th century 03:10:33.740 --> 03:10:38.360 is that it was more to do with the internal sort of moral decay and, 03:10:39.500 --> 03:10:42.940 Civilian emperors neglecting the army, this internal stuff. 03:10:43.580 --> 03:10:46.940 And you make the case that it's the external stuff, the 03:10:47.060 --> 03:10:49.810 three-prong attack, like you said, Normans in the west, 03:10:50.700 --> 03:10:57.700 the Turkic steppe people in the north, and in Central Asia, the Turks in the east. 03:10:58.680 --> 03:11:02.517 Can you describe that, the three forces in the case that that was the 03:11:02.600 --> 03:11:05.300 main reason why it hit a low? 03:11:05.800 --> 03:11:08.837 - Well, this is also a methodological problem, right? In other words, 03:11:08.921 --> 03:11:09.717 when you're looking 03:11:09.800 --> 03:11:13.677 at a society that suddenly faces a bunch of problems, and you could, you know, 03:11:13.760 --> 03:11:18.860 reasonably make the case for a kind of decline or a crisis, is your instinct, 03:11:19.720 --> 03:11:23.337 it's your first instinct to suppose that there must be something wrong in the 03:11:23.420 --> 03:11:27.300 internal mechanisms of that society that, you know, led it to fail, 03:11:28.720 --> 03:11:31.647 which is what my field has done traditionally. 03:11:31.730 --> 03:11:35.217 Uh, in part because of the decline and fall model, right, of this 03:11:35.300 --> 03:11:39.850 society, we're kind of primed to think that there was something wrong with it. 03:11:40.000 --> 03:11:47.000 It's a long story. Or is it reasonable to say that a society 03:11:47.440 --> 03:11:53.160 that does not seem to have any, like, particularly serious structural flaws 03:11:54.360 --> 03:11:58.200 is hit by external, you know, challenges that it 03:11:58.480 --> 03:12:02.357 couldn't realistically have foreseen or prepared for such that, you 03:12:02.440 --> 03:12:05.490 know, it, it couldn't cope with them and, as I said, buckled. 03:12:06.480 --> 03:12:10.000 And I think that's what happened. I think that's the, 03:12:10.120 --> 03:12:14.840 main narrative. Not that there weren't problems. There were. But 03:12:16.220 --> 03:12:21.220 no state can, I mean, medieval or ancient, can realistically survive 03:12:22.080 --> 03:12:25.717 the simultaneous attack of three very different kinds of 03:12:25.800 --> 03:12:29.680 enemies, the Normans or, like, these knights... 03:12:29.840 --> 03:12:33.480 Like a new type of Western warfare that is just all about, you know, 03:12:33.620 --> 03:12:37.157 grinding the enemy to bits. But who are also 03:12:37.240 --> 03:12:39.900 terrorists. Like, they're straight up terrorists. 03:12:40.200 --> 03:12:41.727 - Normans are fascinating because, I mean, there's... 03:12:41.810 --> 03:12:43.287 ... there's a Viking component too- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. 03:12:43.370 --> 03:12:44.567 -... with the Normans. - Yeah, yeah. 03:12:44.650 --> 03:12:49.880 - That's a whole... So they have, they have three different kinds of enemies. 03:12:50.080 --> 03:12:53.677 - Yes. The Pechenegs, who's, you know, a, a 03:12:53.760 --> 03:12:57.980 totally different type of, you know, probably mostly nomadic horsemen. 03:12:58.960 --> 03:13:02.840 And then the Seljuk Turks who are 03:13:03.220 --> 03:13:06.937 also mostly nomadic horsemen, but who are coming in from Central Asia 03:13:07.020 --> 03:13:10.797 with vast reserves of manpower behind them. In fact, 03:13:10.880 --> 03:13:17.880 either intending to or, as it happens, effecting a demographic change in not just 03:13:18.420 --> 03:13:22.197 demographic, but ecological too, because they basically, when they 03:13:22.280 --> 03:13:25.660 move into Asia Minor, they're transforming or terraforming, 03:13:26.260 --> 03:13:29.380 Agricultural land into pasturage. 03:13:29.760 --> 03:13:32.780 And, and they're just backed by reserves of manpower 03:13:32.880 --> 03:13:38.200 that no other enemy of the empire has had yet. 03:13:38.460 --> 03:13:41.390 Uh, so yeah, how do you, how do you cope with these situations? I mean, 03:13:41.474 --> 03:13:42.257 they're, it's very, 03:13:42.340 --> 03:13:45.458 very difficult, and it's a wonder that they survived it at all. Now, 03:13:45.541 --> 03:13:46.157 they also have 03:13:46.240 --> 03:13:50.097 internal problems, and I'm not gonna sort of try to sweep these under the rug, 03:13:50.180 --> 03:13:54.537 right? In particular, we're seeing the end of the Macedonian 03:13:54.620 --> 03:14:00.060 dynasty. This is a dynasty that had lasted for about two centuries, and 03:14:01.280 --> 03:14:05.177 this has a kind of politically destabilizing effect. New 03:14:05.260 --> 03:14:08.910 emperors, and there are a lot of, like, childless old men in this period, 03:14:09.100 --> 03:14:13.017 are relatively insecure. They don't have this sort of a dynastic glitz behind 03:14:13.100 --> 03:14:16.760 them, and so they're tending to, to buy a lot of political support, 03:14:17.180 --> 03:14:21.077 like hand out these exemptions, give cash, you know, titles to 03:14:21.160 --> 03:14:24.465 anyone who will support them, and this, of course, causes a budget problem. 03:14:24.548 --> 03:14:24.957 Like, they 03:14:25.040 --> 03:14:27.690 don't have enough money after a while. And then they have to start raising all 03:14:27.773 --> 03:14:28.957 of these armies to deal with all of 03:14:29.040 --> 03:14:32.897 these problems, and that just increases the pressure on the budget, and 03:14:32.980 --> 03:14:35.280 so there is an internal problem as well, yeah. 03:14:36.120 --> 03:14:42.540 - So you mentioned this loop of thriving and then having to survive, 03:14:42.660 --> 03:14:46.619 surviving, that happens a few times-... throughout the history of the Roman 03:14:46.703 --> 03:14:47.536 Empire. 03:14:48.020 --> 03:14:50.970 It seems that societies in general oscillate in that way. 03:14:52.260 --> 03:14:56.050 Is there something particular you could say about the oscillations, 03:14:56.280 --> 03:14:58.530 the loops that the Roman Empire goes through? 03:14:59.460 --> 03:15:01.347 - Yes. Now, I don't think this is an oscillation. 03:15:01.430 --> 03:15:03.277 At least that's not how I think of it in my own 03:15:03.360 --> 03:15:09.980 mind. Um, so as I explained, the crises that this, this 03:15:10.220 --> 03:15:12.720 polity, this state, this society that it undergoes 03:15:13.580 --> 03:15:17.417 are dis- there are a discrete number of them. I can tell 03:15:17.500 --> 03:15:21.397 you what they are, and we've talked about most of them so far. 03:15:21.480 --> 03:15:28.357 They don't last very long, and they are all sudden challenges that appear 03:15:28.440 --> 03:15:31.390 from the outside. In other words, they're exogenous shocks, 03:15:32.400 --> 03:15:35.520 that they can't really have prepared for. 03:15:36.560 --> 03:15:40.320 These shocks cause massive territorial loss, 03:15:41.040 --> 03:15:44.857 which requires adjustment, right? But they don't last 03:15:44.940 --> 03:15:48.620 that long. In other words, the Romans almost always, at some point, 03:15:48.940 --> 03:15:54.040 figure out how to hold a line, how to consolidate their position, regroup- 03:15:54.880 --> 03:16:00.460 and put their economy and their society back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth, 03:16:01.420 --> 03:16:08.420 and eventual reconquest. Always. Every single time, except the last time, right? 03:16:09.220 --> 03:16:14.660 And for me, this poses the following kind of dilemma, 03:16:15.790 --> 03:16:19.397 which I can answer. And the dilemma is, should we define the 03:16:19.480 --> 03:16:23.040 society by these brief crises of exogenous shocks, 03:16:23.600 --> 03:16:27.340 or should we define it by the centuries-long, sometimes, 03:16:27.500 --> 03:16:34.500 periods of regrowth, consolidation, and stabilization, which are endogenous. 03:16:36.500 --> 03:16:39.200 Nobody came from the outside to help them rebuild. 03:16:39.800 --> 03:16:43.640 Uh, and my answer is unequivocally the latter. So 03:16:43.840 --> 03:16:50.840 I see this as a society whose internal organization primes it to stabilize 03:16:51.800 --> 03:16:57.160 and embark on steady growth. Slow and gradual, but steady. 03:16:58.200 --> 03:17:02.037 And that's what I would like my field to explain more, and I'm 03:17:02.120 --> 03:17:05.697 gonna try to do so in the book I mentioned that I'm writing 03:17:05.780 --> 03:17:09.670 on, like, the longevity or the resilience of this society. 03:17:10.040 --> 03:17:13.570 And not try to center the crises, 03:17:13.940 --> 03:17:16.940 which I see as being from the outside. Like, these aren't... 03:17:17.120 --> 03:17:20.197 Of course, they're part of its story, but they're not coming from it. 03:17:20.280 --> 03:17:24.077 What's coming from it is the stability, and I think that's the more 03:17:24.160 --> 03:17:25.810 interesting part of this society. 03:17:26.760 --> 03:17:30.850 - Yeah, so the, you know, these peak-to-peak histories, 03:17:31.700 --> 03:17:35.377 as you can think of them, they miss the machinery in the valleys. Institutions, 03:17:35.460 --> 03:17:39.200 incentives, daily life, all of these things. The politics, the religion. 03:17:40.560 --> 03:17:44.210 You have a bunch of revisionist history ideas in your work. You're 03:17:44.300 --> 03:17:46.950 challenging the field. - Yes. You could say that. 03:17:47.480 --> 03:17:51.377 - In the best possible way. So just to linger on it, what 03:17:51.460 --> 03:17:53.958 are, what are some of the things that historians miss? 03:17:54.041 --> 03:17:55.417 So this is a big one, right, 03:17:55.500 --> 03:17:59.417 that you're speaking to, which is, like, focusing too much 03:17:59.500 --> 03:18:05.700 on specific moments versus on the broad structural underpinnings 03:18:06.120 --> 03:18:07.880 of, of an empire, of a society. 03:18:08.400 --> 03:18:11.800 - Right. So what you alluded to there is a critique 03:18:11.900 --> 03:18:15.777 of what we might call short histories of Byzantium, which is a kind 03:18:15.860 --> 03:18:21.157 of genre of a book. Right? This isn't necessarily, like, what my other 03:18:21.240 --> 03:18:24.997 revisionist ideas are about. The more important ones are things 03:18:25.080 --> 03:18:28.877 like the monarchical republic that we talked about. In other words, that there's 03:18:28.960 --> 03:18:32.370 actually a broader spectrum of political participation. 03:18:32.660 --> 03:18:35.697 Um, that emperors are having to look over their shoulders all the time. 03:18:35.781 --> 03:18:40.257 That there is a deeper matrix of Roman Republican thought there. Like, that's one 03:18:40.340 --> 03:18:44.090 revisionist idea. Another one is about Roman identity, 03:18:44.220 --> 03:18:45.497 just like who are these people? 03:18:45.580 --> 03:18:49.397 And no, they are Romans, and in fact, it's kind of an ethnic identity after a 03:18:49.480 --> 03:18:52.260 certain point. Like, those kinds of ideas. 03:18:53.110 --> 03:18:56.640 The criticism of the peak to peak kinds of books. 03:18:57.180 --> 03:19:01.117 So if you're trying to condense 1,200 years into 120 pages 03:19:01.200 --> 03:19:03.520 or even, you know, even 200 pages, 03:19:04.640 --> 03:19:08.500 there's no way to do so realistically and give a sense of the whole 03:19:08.620 --> 03:19:12.300 terrain. In other words, what these books do is they go, they jump from, 03:19:13.100 --> 03:19:16.980 from highlight to highlight, and these highlights are sometimes things like, 03:19:17.160 --> 03:19:22.740 you know, everything Justinian did because it's so extravagant, to the crises. 03:19:22.840 --> 03:19:26.200 The crises are, of course, dramatic moments that you can't skip. 03:19:27.160 --> 03:19:31.117 And you can't get a sense from these books as to 03:19:31.200 --> 03:19:34.917 how all of this is interconnected in the valleys, right? 03:19:35.000 --> 03:19:38.657 In the crags, down there. Like, what are the mechanisms that are 03:19:38.740 --> 03:19:42.527 connecting these peaks together? And that's how I tried to write 03:19:42.610 --> 03:19:46.197 the big history, The New Roman Empire, is to tell the story by 03:19:46.280 --> 03:19:50.217 casting light in those darker places. That is, to show how 03:19:50.300 --> 03:19:54.037 especially institutions and ideologies sort of 03:19:54.120 --> 03:19:58.057 tie, you know, people's lives together. That 03:19:58.140 --> 03:20:01.397 is, tie people to institutions and to the broader history that surrounds 03:20:01.480 --> 03:20:05.257 them. So that the reader can get a sense when 03:20:05.340 --> 03:20:09.540 I'm, when I'm recounting specific events or either of, you know, 03:20:10.880 --> 03:20:15.620 greatness or of a success or a failure, that they can understand 03:20:16.580 --> 03:20:20.297 roughly why these things are happening, right? Look, there's no perfect 03:20:20.380 --> 03:20:24.000 answer. A short book will just not tell you these things. A long book, 03:20:24.400 --> 03:20:25.860 well, is a long book. 03:20:26.020 --> 03:20:28.986 - Well, in some sense, I mean, this, in this, even in this very conversation, 03:20:29.069 --> 03:20:29.957 I think we did a pretty 03:20:30.040 --> 03:20:34.007 good job of looking at the valleys, at the structure, at the institutions. 03:20:34.090 --> 03:20:36.797 And that gives you a sense of the whole underpinnings. 03:20:36.880 --> 03:20:39.627 And so it's, it's beautiful. It's a beautiful way to see history, 03:20:39.710 --> 03:20:40.317 especially for 03:20:40.400 --> 03:20:44.820 societies that have lasted as long as-... as the, as the East Roman Empire has. 03:20:44.940 --> 03:20:46.590 - But it did take us a few hours. 03:20:46.680 --> 03:20:52.017 - Yes. - Yes. You're right. But it requires that you actually spend some 03:20:52.100 --> 03:20:55.437 time to look in there, yeah. - What's, what's a few hours among friends? 03:20:55.520 --> 03:20:57.260 - No, no, no, that's... I agree. 03:20:58.920 --> 03:21:02.140 - Uh, so zooming out and asking once again, 03:21:03.220 --> 03:21:07.000 the old we're getting a little close to last call at a bar, 03:21:07.260 --> 03:21:10.517 I'm gonna ask you the big question. We asked it before about the 03:21:10.600 --> 03:21:15.140 collapse of the West Roman Empire. 03:21:15.960 --> 03:21:22.872 When did the decline of the East Roman Empire begin for you? 03:21:22.955 --> 03:21:25.520 Throughout this loops, 03:21:26.420 --> 03:21:32.900 when, if you were to predict, Would you be able to say where this is gonna be over? 03:21:33.900 --> 03:21:37.757 And what led to that decline and the 03:21:37.840 --> 03:21:44.260 collapse? So of course, the collapse is finally in 1453 AD. 03:21:44.600 --> 03:21:49.020 - Right. That's actually a very good question. In other words, um, 03:21:50.180 --> 03:21:53.780 not looking at all of the previous crises that caused loss of territory, 03:21:54.320 --> 03:21:58.037 like, you know, you lose Egypt, you lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose 03:21:58.120 --> 03:22:01.837 Eastern Asia Minor, you lo- right? But at what point could you 03:22:01.920 --> 03:22:04.440 say there's no coming back from this? 03:22:04.560 --> 03:22:10.390 Right? I would say early 14th century. Somewhere between 1300 and 1350, 03:22:11.280 --> 03:22:17.997 the sources of resilience begin to dry up, and you have a number of 03:22:18.080 --> 03:22:23.720 setbacks. They lose Asia Minor to the Turks by 1300, roughly, 03:22:24.560 --> 03:22:28.520 which means that you can now no longer draw upon the 03:22:28.640 --> 03:22:32.537 two wings, as it were, the European side and 03:22:32.620 --> 03:22:36.170 the Asian side, which they could always do. They're confined to Europe. 03:22:36.740 --> 03:22:40.617 And then you have a series of civil wars, you have the Serbian 03:22:40.700 --> 03:22:47.700 expansion and you have the Black Death, and they never recover from that. 03:22:48.900 --> 03:22:52.517 In 1300, you think of this, you look at it and you think, "That's a 03:22:52.600 --> 03:22:54.400 tiny little Balkan state." 03:22:54.780 --> 03:22:58.657 Okay, it goes from Constantinople to the Adriatic in this 03:22:58.740 --> 03:23:02.730 just sort of ribbon, right, this, this corridor that just stretches 03:23:03.140 --> 03:23:07.820 across the Balkans. And yet, it's not that much smaller than England 03:23:09.040 --> 03:23:12.917 and has about as much, if not more, revenue, because they're still able 03:23:13.000 --> 03:23:14.860 to raise cash, because taxes. 03:23:15.710 --> 03:23:19.740 Right? So the emperor's still able to pull in a lot of gold. Um, 03:23:20.920 --> 03:23:24.437 and his territory is not, you know, completely insignificant. 03:23:24.520 --> 03:23:27.115 It's not what it, you know, the Roman Empire used to be. 03:23:27.199 --> 03:23:28.437 But I don't think that it's 03:23:28.520 --> 03:23:32.237 completely lost. Then they have some civil wars. Then one 03:23:32.320 --> 03:23:35.877 emperor- um, a rebel makes a deal with the Serbs, surrenders half that 03:23:35.960 --> 03:23:38.310 territory. Okay, after that, game over. 03:23:39.420 --> 03:23:44.340 What's surprising is it takes the Turks that long. 1453, that's another century. 03:23:44.460 --> 03:23:48.277 Right? It didn't need to be. It looks like they might have 03:23:48.360 --> 03:23:53.100 had it wrapped up like 50 years after- uh, you know, like by 1400. 03:23:54.000 --> 03:23:58.627 But then accidental events happened. This is Timur, Tamerlane comes- 03:23:58.710 --> 03:24:02.637 ... from Central Asia, trounces the Turks, breaks up their empire. So they go 03:24:02.720 --> 03:24:06.257 into a cycle of, you know, rebuilding, and so that's why it takes 03:24:06.340 --> 03:24:11.820 another 50 years. Anyway, but I'd say by the 1340s, game over. 03:24:12.600 --> 03:24:19.260 - And so why did it collapse? What are the things in the ground, when you zoom out, 03:24:20.500 --> 03:24:25.840 the thing that ate away at the, I like this term, sources of resilience? 03:24:26.320 --> 03:24:29.377 - Oh, foreign invasions. There's no question. It's just- - It's just invasions 03:24:29.460 --> 03:24:33.377 -...it's foreign invasions, those which they could 03:24:33.460 --> 03:24:36.040 not cope with. They coped with lots of them. 03:24:37.140 --> 03:24:40.900 But, you know, it, all it takes is to lose to one, 03:24:41.100 --> 03:24:44.700 and you lose some part of your territory. And if you keep losing enough, 03:24:45.780 --> 03:24:49.030 you won't have anything to fall back on, and that's what happens. 03:24:49.620 --> 03:24:55.240 - So really, you know, if there's no significant external invasions, 03:24:56.320 --> 03:25:01.840 the East Roman Empire, the fundamentals, the taxation system, 03:25:03.340 --> 03:25:07.217 the way the, the policies were developed, the way the politics was done, the way 03:25:07.300 --> 03:25:10.850 the representation was done, all of that, this empire could have lasted 03:25:12.100 --> 03:25:18.800 for another thousand years. - Absolutely. I'm absolutely convinced of this because 03:25:20.680 --> 03:25:24.120 you never see movements to split away. 03:25:24.940 --> 03:25:28.677 That is, there's no separatist movements, at least not on the part of 03:25:28.760 --> 03:25:32.697 any Roman provincials. There's one separatist movement, which is Bulgaria. 03:25:32.780 --> 03:25:36.657 We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered, right, in 1018. There's 03:25:36.740 --> 03:25:39.940 a couple of independentist movements rebellions. Um, 03:25:40.320 --> 03:25:43.880 eventually one succeeds in 1185, so just under two centuries. 03:25:44.260 --> 03:25:46.720 So Bulgaria is the only part of this empire that 03:25:47.560 --> 03:25:49.860 actively seeks to break away and does so. 03:25:50.840 --> 03:25:54.647 But for the rest of the 1,200 years, you don't find provincials wanting 03:25:54.730 --> 03:25:57.980 to leave this system. However much they complain about the taxes, 03:25:58.780 --> 03:26:02.680 they don't want to leave, and they make no move to do so. You also never have 03:26:02.780 --> 03:26:09.640 a moment when the center loses its ability to tax its territories, 03:26:10.300 --> 03:26:14.177 right? You don't have, like, widespread peasant uprisings or 03:26:14.260 --> 03:26:17.710 provinc- or, right, agricultural rebellions or these kinds of things, 03:26:18.400 --> 03:26:22.317 Which happens in every other one of these empires. They also never decide 03:26:22.400 --> 03:26:26.200 to partition it. The Franks partition theirs, right, like after Charlemagne. 03:26:26.760 --> 03:26:29.940 No. There are no, like, Roman 03:26:30.080 --> 03:26:33.597 warlords that try to carve out a piece of the territory for 03:26:33.680 --> 03:26:37.640 themselves and rule it independent. Nope, that doesn't happen either. So 03:26:37.740 --> 03:26:41.680 if you're looking at the kinds of factors that cause states to fail, 03:26:41.860 --> 03:26:46.460 fragment, you know, become ungovernable, these never happen. 03:26:47.000 --> 03:26:50.560 - This is so incredible. This is truly incredible. 03:26:51.520 --> 03:26:55.397 In the history of human civilization, just an incredible study of 03:26:55.480 --> 03:26:59.190 what human societies can form. So, so what, what, 03:26:59.840 --> 03:27:04.337 what, what are the whys? Why? Why? Why was it so stable? 03:27:04.420 --> 03:27:07.520 - Well, now look, there are other stable... Like, for example, 03:27:08.420 --> 03:27:11.640 The, the British monarchy. That's been around for quite a while. 03:27:11.770 --> 03:27:11.957 - Yeah, that's true. 03:27:12.040 --> 03:27:17.220 - Right? States like Portugal, Japan, they have one thing in common. 03:27:18.450 --> 03:27:20.300 They're all tucked away at the edges. 03:27:20.940 --> 03:27:24.237 Like, they're off, they're little islands or whatever. They're not like, right? 03:27:24.320 --> 03:27:28.320 We're talking about a society that was right in the- - In the, yeah 03:27:28.420 --> 03:27:32.270 -... middle of one of the main corridors of empire building and new religions 03:27:32.540 --> 03:27:36.457 in the world. This is the most dangerous neighborhood, right, 03:27:36.540 --> 03:27:38.570 that you can possibly live in. 03:27:38.660 --> 03:27:42.497 So no wonder it didn't survive. Like it would've been 03:27:42.580 --> 03:27:46.400 extraordinary if it had. But absent those forces, 03:27:47.580 --> 03:27:51.280 I don't see any forces of internal 03:27:51.400 --> 03:27:56.397 decomposition that would have imperiled it, you know, significantly. 03:27:56.480 --> 03:28:00.177 - So what, I mean we've talked about a lot of it, but what, just to, like, 03:28:00.260 --> 03:28:04.860 return to it, why was there no internal 03:28:05.990 --> 03:28:09.730 sources of decomposition. Like why, why did it work so well? 03:28:09.890 --> 03:28:13.690 Why did the people feel represented? Yes, they— By the way, you talked about 03:28:14.030 --> 03:28:17.417 how they complain about the taxes, which is one of the signs of a healthy society, 03:28:17.501 --> 03:28:19.676 that we... It's like complaining about the weather. 03:28:19.759 --> 03:28:21.627 The fact that you complain about the taxes 03:28:21.710 --> 03:28:24.951 actually means that you're happy with the taxes, kind of counterintuitively, 03:28:25.034 --> 03:28:28.407 or it's not too bad. You're just complaining as part of the system. 03:28:28.490 --> 03:28:33.090 Anyway, but why? Why, why did it work so well? Why did everybody get along— 03:28:33.390 --> 03:28:37.987 - Oh, no, they— -... feel represented? No, not get along. Not in a, in a silly way. 03:28:38.070 --> 03:28:41.947 I mean, sufficiently to where they wouldn't... Warlords wouldn't 03:28:42.030 --> 03:28:44.030 rise and break apart the system and— 03:28:44.210 --> 03:28:48.247 ... or if there was those kinds of forces, they would come back together. 03:28:48.330 --> 03:28:50.880 Like, why is this such a great self-healing system? 03:28:51.270 --> 03:28:53.687 - So you're exactly right. So sufficient is the key word. 03:28:53.770 --> 03:28:55.167 We don't want to idealize this, 03:28:55.250 --> 03:28:58.073 right? These aren't, like, they're not just dancing in the streets, 03:28:58.156 --> 03:29:02.410 holding hands and then direct... It's so— Even when it comes to the tax system, 03:29:02.630 --> 03:29:06.547 they are complaining all the time. Of course, they're doing so because they know 03:29:06.630 --> 03:29:08.810 that complaining gets you things. 03:29:08.950 --> 03:29:11.888 There's no disincentive to complaining. You might not get what you want, 03:29:11.971 --> 03:29:12.807 or you might get it, 03:29:12.890 --> 03:29:16.750 but you know, no harm will come to you. So they're complaining all the 03:29:16.850 --> 03:29:20.790 time. They have all of these civil wars. They're like, "Okay." Um, 03:29:21.590 --> 03:29:25.370 so I think I would give you a two-part answer, so 03:29:25.970 --> 03:29:28.810 really quickly, as to why this held together so well. 03:29:30.050 --> 03:29:33.667 First is that an extraordinary effort was 03:29:33.750 --> 03:29:37.587 made by the authorities to persuade their subjects that they were 03:29:37.670 --> 03:29:41.570 ruling on their behalf, and I think, for the most part, 03:29:41.690 --> 03:29:45.467 actually tended to do so. And the second is that it 03:29:45.550 --> 03:29:49.450 had a very tightly unified identity 03:29:49.550 --> 03:29:53.270 as Roman and as Orthodox. In other words, for the most, 03:29:53.790 --> 03:29:58.303 most time, they knew that they were surrounded by enemies who were not those 03:29:58.387 --> 03:30:02.547 things. And they did not want to live under the power of non-Romans and 03:30:02.630 --> 03:30:07.950 non-Christian people. And so those two factors combined, I think, gave everybody 03:30:08.750 --> 03:30:12.550 reason to hold it together. The alternatives were worse. 03:30:13.310 --> 03:30:17.217 - Yeah. I mean, that's a really brilliant summary, and I think we should mention 03:30:17.300 --> 03:30:20.647 that both the rhetoric and the action are important. I think you've 03:30:20.730 --> 03:30:24.158 articulated that rhetoric is really powerful, 03:30:24.241 --> 03:30:26.977 like stating over and over and over- 03:30:27.060 --> 03:30:30.787 ... that you represent the people, that you're acting on behalf of the people and 03:30:30.870 --> 03:30:33.517 doing the action. But it's not enough to actually do the action. 03:30:33.601 --> 03:30:34.667 You would think that's all 03:30:34.750 --> 03:30:37.507 Machiavelli says that's the only thing that matters. But no. 03:30:37.590 --> 03:30:42.367 It's the rhetoric actually has a lot of power-... because it is a uniting idea- 03:30:42.450 --> 03:30:46.410 ... an ideal that propagates through time, and it pacifies you. It 03:30:46.550 --> 03:30:49.750 makes you, it puts you at peace. Rhetoric is important. 03:30:50.030 --> 03:30:54.610 - I'll give you an example. As an academic administrator, right? 03:30:54.930 --> 03:30:57.730 I mean, I was chair of a department for years and years. 03:30:58.350 --> 03:31:05.350 There's a difference between a dean who says, "Sorry, bad budget situation. We're 03:31:07.370 --> 03:31:12.390 just going to have to cut your programs," on the one hand, and a dean who says, 03:31:13.850 --> 03:31:17.627 "I am fully on board with what you're trying to accomplish with 03:31:17.710 --> 03:31:22.670 these programs. I am a defender of the humanities. Unfortunately, 03:31:23.550 --> 03:31:26.999 we have this budget situation, and we're going to have to cut some of the programs. 03:31:27.082 --> 03:31:31.927 But I assure you, the moment I'm in this with you together- 03:31:32.010 --> 03:31:34.810 ... the moment we find the funds, we will restore them." 03:31:35.670 --> 03:31:40.568 Those two just rhetorical strategies, they're aiming at the same practical 03:31:40.651 --> 03:31:41.485 outcome, 03:31:42.090 --> 03:31:46.610 will produce very different levels of compliance-... right, and consensus. 03:31:47.110 --> 03:31:49.460 - And I should say that there's subtlety there. 03:31:49.600 --> 03:31:54.710 The best rhetoric in that context, and maybe in the East Roman Empire, 03:31:55.570 --> 03:31:57.120 is you also have to believe it. 03:31:57.490 --> 03:32:00.627 - Yes. It has to be credible. You can't just say it and then not do it. 03:32:00.710 --> 03:32:03.359 - But one of the things I've learned about humans, just having, 03:32:03.442 --> 03:32:04.742 doing this little podcast, 03:32:05.170 --> 03:32:09.110 is that people could-- Like, the best way to say a thing, 03:32:09.950 --> 03:32:12.647 a powerful thing, is to really believe it. 03:32:12.730 --> 03:32:16.210 And so, like, this is clearly one of the things that made 03:32:16.990 --> 03:32:23.370 the Roman Empire work, is doing the action is the best way to make the 03:32:23.530 --> 03:32:26.210 rhetoric powerful and effective. 03:32:26.350 --> 03:32:29.950 - Yeah. This is sort of what Aristotle says about tyrants. 03:32:30.790 --> 03:32:34.166 In The Politics, Aristotle's giving essentially advice to tyrants on how 03:32:34.250 --> 03:32:38.487 to protect themselves because tyrants are usually hated and are killed in coups, 03:32:38.570 --> 03:32:42.487 right? And he says, "Well, how-- You know, essentially, how do you manage 03:32:42.570 --> 03:32:47.930 to secure yourself when you're a tyrant?" Well, you know, you can start 03:32:48.980 --> 03:32:52.887 by maybe, you know, obeying the laws or making sure that your subjects obey 03:32:52.970 --> 03:32:56.787 the laws and, you know, maybe work for the interests of yourself. Essentially, 03:32:56.870 --> 03:32:59.770 he's telling them to kind of become benevolent kings. 03:33:00.570 --> 03:33:04.437 And the best way to persuade your subjects that you're legitimate, benevolent 03:33:04.520 --> 03:33:07.630 kings is to be that. 03:33:08.730 --> 03:33:14.090 - So what, from all of this, from this 2,200-year history of the Roman Empire, 03:33:14.950 --> 03:33:20.650 what lessons can we draw for modern times? Now we're sitting in America, this 03:33:21.690 --> 03:33:25.830 young empire. I know we're not calling it an empire, but, you know. 03:33:26.030 --> 03:33:29.024 - Lots of people are calling it an empire. I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah, 03:33:29.107 --> 03:33:33.387 in the 20th century, it was like, "Is America an empire now?" But like, I 03:33:33.470 --> 03:33:40.470 think since the Iraq War, like since 2003, I've seen at least very casual uses of 03:33:41.490 --> 03:33:45.367 America and empire in the same, you know, sentence without any kind of 03:33:45.450 --> 03:33:48.650 hand-wringing. - Is it ever called that in a academic setting? 03:33:49.030 --> 03:33:51.267 - Yes. - I mean, it's technically, I guess you could say- - Oh, yeah 03:33:51.350 --> 03:33:55.580 -... given, given the expanse of the military bases and, 03:33:56.650 --> 03:34:00.427 and the military might and and the way that represents 03:34:00.510 --> 03:34:02.390 itself in the geopolitical context. 03:34:02.510 --> 03:34:05.410 - There are books published all the time that unironically 03:34:06.070 --> 03:34:09.567 Discuss America as an empire in various ways. Yeah, no. 03:34:09.650 --> 03:34:11.147 - By the way, both positive and negative. 03:34:11.230 --> 03:34:14.124 So when you're saying a positive thing about America, calling it an empire, 03:34:14.208 --> 03:34:15.458 and when you're saying it 03:34:15.570 --> 03:34:18.487 to criticize America, you call it an empire. Yeah, you're right. 03:34:18.570 --> 03:34:20.944 - Yeah. I mean, most academic books aren't trying to do, like, either. 03:34:21.027 --> 03:34:24.247 They're just trying to analyze a situation. 03:34:24.330 --> 03:34:31.070 - What lessons about, about representing the people, about flourishing, 03:34:32.310 --> 03:34:33.990 about stability can we draw? 03:34:34.330 --> 03:34:39.630 - I will say that, just drawing on what we were talking about a moment ago, 03:34:40.510 --> 03:34:45.610 that investing in institutions that work for the majority of your subjects, 03:34:46.490 --> 03:34:48.909 even if indirectly, like they have to pay a cost for them, 03:34:48.992 --> 03:34:50.387 but you have to explain to them 03:34:50.470 --> 03:34:56.690 why they're paying that cost, is to the benefit of the ruling classes as well. 03:34:57.710 --> 03:35:00.830 Because you're-- ideally, you're thinking about 03:35:01.270 --> 03:35:04.630 long-term success and not just your own 03:35:04.750 --> 03:35:08.540 short-term, you know, gain. And I think that's what this society 03:35:08.810 --> 03:35:10.923 tends to do well. You know, the Romans generally, 03:35:11.007 --> 03:35:12.847 you know how they built roads for the, 03:35:12.930 --> 03:35:16.807 the centuries and the millennia. They built institutions too. You know, 03:35:16.890 --> 03:35:20.007 one of the institutions they built was, like, the Christian Church. 03:35:20.090 --> 03:35:22.350 Like, they build things to last. 03:35:22.610 --> 03:35:26.460 Um, and I think that's a, that's a good lesson beyond even the roads. I think 03:35:26.830 --> 03:35:32.010 institutions that explain, you know, to people why they exist, 03:35:32.890 --> 03:35:37.347 is... Yeah, I think we could we could use some of that. 03:35:37.430 --> 03:35:41.267 - And also the first point you made about the East Roman Empire. I think 03:35:41.350 --> 03:35:45.270 you've said that US foreign policy sometimes has a, quite a 03:35:45.370 --> 03:35:50.290 large gap between the rhetoric and the in modern times, the rhetoric and the action. 03:35:50.590 --> 03:35:54.587 - Oh, yeah. Yeah. - And so that's to the Machiavelli's point that we want to 03:35:54.670 --> 03:35:59.050 maybe narrow that gap for a successful empire, for a successful nation. 03:35:59.890 --> 03:36:01.830 The rhetoric has to match the action. 03:36:03.030 --> 03:36:03.137 - Yes. 03:36:03.220 --> 03:36:09.890 - And it doesn't quite for some of the foreign policy engagements in the world. 03:36:10.210 --> 03:36:14.127 - So in the context of the society I study, let's say the army 03:36:14.210 --> 03:36:17.670 is the single largest expense, is doing pretty much what 03:36:18.530 --> 03:36:21.827 the emperors say that it's doing, which is protecting its subjects. 03:36:21.910 --> 03:36:25.607 That's actually what it's doing most of the time. Not all the time. So, for 03:36:25.690 --> 03:36:29.487 example, emperors will sometimes take the armies out on a 03:36:29.570 --> 03:36:33.427 raid or an expedition, you know, crack some skulls, gather some 03:36:33.510 --> 03:36:36.622 plunder, come back, and this is done to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah. 03:36:36.706 --> 03:36:37.507 Yeah, yeah, this, 03:36:37.590 --> 03:36:42.850 this does happen. But for the most part, they're doing that, not much else. 03:36:43.330 --> 03:36:46.850 And actually, in pre-modern context, it's very difficult to 03:36:46.990 --> 03:36:50.807 operate like, you know, shadow foreign policies and things like 03:36:50.890 --> 03:36:53.090 this. Like, it's just not part of the- 03:36:53.210 --> 03:37:00.210 ... It's not in the cards. But America in particular has such 03:37:00.710 --> 03:37:04.550 a history of proclaiming the loftiest goals. 03:37:05.850 --> 03:37:10.690 It just, sometimes just, you know, breathtakingly implausible. 03:37:11.390 --> 03:37:15.047 - Plus the incredible engineering behind the military industrial complex, so 03:37:15.130 --> 03:37:18.810 America's very good at creating-... to the flamethrowers. 03:37:19.830 --> 03:37:25.610 - Yes. - The technologies—... of war, and so the lofty goals combined with 03:37:25.710 --> 03:37:27.887 just a lot of profit that could be made on- 03:37:27.970 --> 03:37:31.927 ... the technologies of war creates a very difficult situation to navigate, where 03:37:32.010 --> 03:37:33.790 the gap naturally widens. 03:37:34.520 --> 03:37:38.360 - Yeah. I don't think most of the world even believes, you know, what 03:37:38.650 --> 03:37:42.790 American leaders say their goals are, especially when it comes to, like, war. 03:37:43.830 --> 03:37:45.680 Like spreading democracy? No, really? 03:37:46.670 --> 03:37:50.110 I remember when they were trying to convince me, 03:37:51.310 --> 03:37:56.190 us, that the invasion of Afghanistan was a feminist war. 03:37:57.150 --> 03:37:58.347 - Oh, that was a thing, huh? 03:37:58.430 --> 03:38:02.407 - Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women from the burqas or whatever, and, like, 03:38:02.490 --> 03:38:06.187 the news was just flooded with, like, how terrible women have it in Afghanistan. 03:38:06.270 --> 03:38:09.827 It's like, you're really trying to persuade me that that's why you're 03:38:09.910 --> 03:38:13.547 sending armed forces— like... Anyway. 03:38:13.630 --> 03:38:16.618 - I think there's a lot, a lot of wake-up calls about the war in Afghanistan 03:38:16.701 --> 03:38:17.547 and Iraq, where people 03:38:17.630 --> 03:38:21.767 realized that there is that gap between the rhetoric and the action. 03:38:21.850 --> 03:38:26.400 And I mean, that's how, because of a lot of people waking up to that, 03:38:27.360 --> 03:38:31.957 they create pressure on the government to close that gap, and that's— 03:38:32.040 --> 03:38:33.937 ... how we kind of navigate this— 03:38:34.020 --> 03:38:37.407 ... complicated world, but it's a costly one. I mean, these, these were 03:38:37.490 --> 03:38:41.650 extremely costly wars—... on every front, on every measure. 03:38:42.390 --> 03:38:45.640 - Yep, but the same lesson was learned in, like, the Vietnam War, 03:38:46.170 --> 03:38:48.700 and that was such a disaster that 03:38:49.930 --> 03:38:53.467 essentially they had to switch to-- abandon the conscript army, switch to a 03:38:53.550 --> 03:38:57.450 professional army. And, like, it took them so long 03:38:57.690 --> 03:39:01.430 to be able to, like, wage, you know, these empire wars again 03:39:02.190 --> 03:39:05.947 because of the sheer damage that the Vietnam War did to the credibility 03:39:06.030 --> 03:39:09.727 of the military leadership in the country, right? This 03:39:09.810 --> 03:39:13.770 never happens in, like, this doesn't happen in Constantinople. 03:39:14.390 --> 03:39:18.187 I can lose a w-- You can be criticized for losing a war. That's, that's one thing, 03:39:18.270 --> 03:39:22.990 right? But that you're using the army to do some, like... You know. No. 03:39:23.430 --> 03:39:27.270 - Some of this does have to do with the, the functioning of 03:39:28.490 --> 03:39:31.967 of how democracy works, the, the temporary nature of the 03:39:32.050 --> 03:39:34.060 leaderships, and that they're very- 03:39:34.810 --> 03:39:39.710 ... short-sighted because of the nature of the elected position or the executive. 03:39:40.750 --> 03:39:43.470 I mean, that's what we're trying to figure out as a human civilization, 03:39:43.554 --> 03:39:47.127 how to do this for, in this particular case, the democracy thing. 03:39:47.210 --> 03:39:48.807 - There's no right answer, and by the way, 03:39:48.890 --> 03:39:51.067 I don't wanna be ruled by kings or monarchs or emperors 03:39:51.150 --> 03:39:55.090 either. So it's like I wouldn't necessarily support that. I'm not 03:39:55.630 --> 03:39:58.987 advocating here for anything. I'm just trying to explain. But you're exactly 03:39:59.070 --> 03:40:05.207 right. You know, we, we want democracy. We want leaders whom we can eject 03:40:05.290 --> 03:40:06.810 every four or five years- 03:40:07.030 --> 03:40:10.707 ... which includes sometimes their, their, you know, teams of experts and policy 03:40:10.790 --> 03:40:13.630 designers and whatever, and that comes at a cost too. 03:40:14.190 --> 03:40:17.900 - So you, you said that. You know, the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece, 03:40:18.040 --> 03:40:24.100 maybe the societies before that, and now societies after that, the society 03:40:24.200 --> 03:40:29.020 we live in are very different. And so applying the lessons of history, 03:40:29.840 --> 03:40:34.720 you have to be careful doing so. But are there things that are the same 03:40:35.920 --> 03:40:37.140 with us humans? 03:40:37.990 --> 03:40:41.710 So of everything you've studied across hundreds of years and centuries, 03:40:42.200 --> 03:40:45.320 are there aspects of human nature that kind of persist? 03:40:46.080 --> 03:40:49.270 - So look, intellectually, I have gone through, 03:40:50.100 --> 03:40:53.440 periods when, like when I was a grad student, 03:40:54.320 --> 03:40:58.177 it was, you know, this was kind of when postmodernism, what 03:40:58.260 --> 03:41:02.137 we might call loosely, was kind of alive and well and not- 03:41:02.220 --> 03:41:04.920 ... had not yet been kicked in the pants. 03:41:05.020 --> 03:41:08.940 Um, it was very common to find colleagues who 03:41:09.200 --> 03:41:12.645 did not believe that there was such a thing as, let's say, human nature. 03:41:12.728 --> 03:41:16.180 In other words, that, let's say, the parameters of human psychology 03:41:16.740 --> 03:41:19.004 are, you know, yes, there's considerable variation, 03:41:19.087 --> 03:41:24.300 but they're within a certain set of, you know, norms. Like it's not-- 03:41:25.380 --> 03:41:28.030 We're, we're not gonna behave like different species. 03:41:29.020 --> 03:41:32.857 And, and that they did not believe that there 03:41:32.940 --> 03:41:36.640 was such a thing. In other words, that all of human history is essentially 03:41:36.880 --> 03:41:40.520 a series of incommensurate slices of difference, 03:41:41.200 --> 03:41:45.137 right? That you just couldn't go from one to the next. And I think it's a 03:41:45.220 --> 03:41:47.792 very problematic view for all kinds of reasons, like how, 03:41:47.876 --> 03:41:49.157 how small do you slice these 03:41:49.240 --> 03:41:53.897 slices? I mean, it... And no, I'm with Thucydides on this one- 03:41:53.980 --> 03:41:57.797 ... Who says that, you know, more or less human beings are gonna, more or less, 03:41:57.880 --> 03:42:01.517 they're, they're going to be act-- Right? They love, and they hate, and they have 03:42:01.600 --> 03:42:05.580 ambitions, and they're incompetent, and, you know, you find the whole 03:42:05.800 --> 03:42:08.540 range of, you know, the whole gamut of diversity- 03:42:08.720 --> 03:42:12.637 ... Pretty much in every, in any group of, of about 20 or 30 people, you're gonna 03:42:12.720 --> 03:42:16.657 find the same kinds of types. Now, culture then comes in and, 03:42:16.740 --> 03:42:19.443 you know, tweaks things in all kinds of weird ways, and that's, 03:42:19.526 --> 03:42:20.677 as a historian, what I like 03:42:20.760 --> 03:42:27.540 to study. I like just how the culture will modify, will set the dials, right? 03:42:27.810 --> 03:42:30.267 But that the dials go from one to 10 most people- 03:42:30.350 --> 03:42:31.797 ... it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. 03:42:31.880 --> 03:42:34.230 - But every once in a while, there'll be a few, 03:42:35.300 --> 03:42:39.137 A few folks who come along, whether it's Steve Jobs with a turtleneck 03:42:39.220 --> 03:42:43.160 or some guy with a weird mustache or 03:42:43.880 --> 03:42:47.560 with a funny hat, and those can turn the tides of history. 03:42:47.700 --> 03:42:49.300 - I think so. Occasionally, yes. 03:42:49.440 --> 03:42:54.480 - But they're just ultra skilled at the right time-... at the right moment. 03:42:54.860 --> 03:42:58.757 - Oh, I believe that too. Oh, yeah. In other words, I don't-- I also don't 03:42:58.840 --> 03:43:02.060 think that, that cultural systems or ideologies are so 03:43:02.820 --> 03:43:06.567 effectively totalitarian that they sort of colonize the mind of every person. 03:43:06.650 --> 03:43:10.277 And so everyone in a culture is just like a clone. No, you 03:43:10.360 --> 03:43:13.110 encounter this sometimes in, in historical scholarship. 03:43:13.500 --> 03:43:16.045 And, no, I think people can sometimes just think for themselves, 03:43:16.129 --> 03:43:17.317 or they can think outside the 03:43:17.400 --> 03:43:21.050 box, and they can do all kinds of things. And, and I always wanna keep my 03:43:21.520 --> 03:43:26.157 mind open to that possibility when I'm encountering historical agents. Yeah. 03:43:26.240 --> 03:43:28.690 - So just because you've seen this grand history, 03:43:29.560 --> 03:43:34.920 I apologize for the ridiculous question, but if we look at the entirety of Earth, 03:43:35.840 --> 03:43:38.480 and we fast-forward a million years from now- 03:43:39.360 --> 03:43:40.193 - Oof 03:43:40.720 --> 03:43:43.980 -... and the, and the history of life on Earth is written, 03:43:44.740 --> 03:43:48.840 do you think we're at the very beginning of human history? 03:43:50.320 --> 03:43:53.880 Or is, are we in the middle, or are we close to the end? 03:43:54.860 --> 03:44:01.010 - A million years from now. Um, I mean, I can't project or predict anything like a 03:44:01.120 --> 03:44:01.953 year from now. 03:44:02.640 --> 03:44:06.620 And I've become actually increasingly skeptical that I can do so at least. 03:44:07.320 --> 03:44:13.420 However, so I don't know about beginning, middle, and end. Um, I-- 03:44:14.240 --> 03:44:18.257 It's easier to think in terms of like, like numbered phases. 03:44:18.340 --> 03:44:20.757 Like significantly different phases of human history. 03:44:20.840 --> 03:44:22.690 And I would say we're probably in the third. 03:44:22.773 --> 03:44:24.773 I think there've only been three phases. 03:44:25.220 --> 03:44:28.280 The first one being sort of hunter-gatherer period, which-- 03:44:28.880 --> 03:44:31.680 ...that lasted for the majority of human history so far. 03:44:31.880 --> 03:44:35.757 Right? Then there's the agricultural revolution, basically. And 03:44:35.840 --> 03:44:39.348 this is when you start to produce surpluses that create more complex 03:44:39.432 --> 03:44:40.265 societies. 03:44:40.940 --> 03:44:46.027 And we're now living through a technological-- first industrial, now, 03:44:46.111 --> 03:44:48.397 you know-- - Yeah. You can throw it all in the same bucket. 03:44:48.480 --> 03:44:49.587 -...all kinds of tech-- - Industrial, technological. 03:44:49.670 --> 03:44:53.637 - Yeah. Industrial, technological. Which is modifying the parameters of what it 03:44:53.720 --> 03:44:56.420 is that human beings can do and possibly be. 03:44:56.880 --> 03:45:00.920 And who knows where this will go. But I see these as very distinct, 03:45:01.780 --> 03:45:05.437 In many ways. It's all human beings-- - Yeah, it's all humans-- 03:45:05.520 --> 03:45:06.037 -...but very different contexts. 03:45:06.120 --> 03:45:11.340 - But they're almost modifying themselves. So the question is, is there a fourth? 03:45:12.680 --> 03:45:14.757 Is there going to be a-- - Yeah, I'm pretty sure there will be. 03:45:14.840 --> 03:45:18.800 - And what does that look like? And is it-- When they look back at the third, 03:45:20.100 --> 03:45:22.640 would they still see us as the same 03:45:23.900 --> 03:45:27.160 as them, or would it be something completely different? 03:45:28.360 --> 03:45:32.340 - Oh, no. I mean, we look back at the, you know, Romans or the Greeks or, 03:45:32.500 --> 03:45:34.875 like, any period in history, and we're like, "Yeah, no, 03:45:34.959 --> 03:45:36.297 I see what you're doing there. 03:45:36.380 --> 03:45:40.277 You're doing it with the, you know, the technological capabilities that you had 03:45:40.360 --> 03:45:42.908 at that time. You're doing it with the materials that you had. 03:45:42.992 --> 03:45:44.392 But I see what you're doing. 03:45:44.840 --> 03:45:47.956 Yeah. You've got, you've got families, and you've got armies, and you've got, 03:45:48.040 --> 03:45:50.157 you know, you bury your dead, and you, you know." 03:45:50.240 --> 03:45:54.037 - Mm-hmm. But now we're increasingly actually having the 03:45:54.120 --> 03:45:55.940 tools and technology to modify, 03:45:57.060 --> 03:46:00.840 to, like, deeply modify what it means to be human. Genetic engineering, 03:46:01.480 --> 03:46:05.117 brain-computer interfaces. As we understand the brain more, we can 03:46:05.200 --> 03:46:11.890 modify things, expand completely. Plus artificial intelligence can expand the 03:46:12.760 --> 03:46:16.520 knowledge base and the intelligence of the human mind. Unless 03:46:17.320 --> 03:46:21.137 we figure out the human mind is actually incredibly special to the 03:46:21.220 --> 03:46:26.747 degree where it's-- At least with the tools we have this century, we cannot 03:46:26.830 --> 03:46:30.387 accomplish, we cannot achieve the level-- 03:46:30.470 --> 03:46:33.990 ...of intelligence that-- general intelligence that humans have. 03:46:34.490 --> 03:46:37.727 Or one of the things we might figure out in stage four of 03:46:37.810 --> 03:46:41.650 this long history is that the thing that makes humans 03:46:41.750 --> 03:46:45.607 special is not intelligence. It's not any of the things we kind of 03:46:45.690 --> 03:46:48.190 value each other by. It's actually consciousness, 03:46:49.250 --> 03:46:53.557 and consciousness is the thing that is very difficult to engineer. 03:46:53.640 --> 03:46:56.490 And so that's the common thing from the hunter-gatherers, 03:46:57.450 --> 03:47:01.370 to before the Industrial Revolution and after, is we're still the same. 03:47:02.130 --> 03:47:05.430 We still feel like something to be alive, 03:47:06.030 --> 03:47:09.807 and that's maybe an important component of what makes us fall in love with each 03:47:09.890 --> 03:47:13.670 other or fear each other or suffer and all 03:47:13.770 --> 03:47:16.907 the full range of the human condition, the human experience. 03:47:16.990 --> 03:47:20.847 Maybe even technology cannot, cannot replicate that, cannot 03:47:20.930 --> 03:47:23.710 modify that. Maybe that's what we learn. Or 03:47:25.470 --> 03:47:28.490 very possibly we destroy this whole thing. 03:47:29.280 --> 03:47:32.237 'Cause now for the first time in human history, we have the tools- 03:47:32.320 --> 03:47:35.520 - Yeah, yeah, we have -... unfortunately, to destroy everything. 03:47:35.850 --> 03:47:37.207 - This is all very eloquent. 03:47:37.290 --> 03:47:41.087 I mean, after so many hours of my rambling about the medieval Roman 03:47:41.170 --> 03:47:44.370 Empire, you're, you're-- Yeah. I'm impressed. 03:47:44.970 --> 03:47:47.520 - Okay. What gives you hope about this whole thing, 03:47:48.530 --> 03:47:50.600 about the future of human civilization? 03:47:51.550 --> 03:47:55.447 - Look, there are a lot of challenges, right, that we, that 03:47:55.530 --> 03:48:02.530 we face and we talk about them a lot. As a historian, I see other periods that 03:48:02.790 --> 03:48:06.130 were far, far more difficult 03:48:06.830 --> 03:48:12.050 when people could have far more easily have given up hope, and sometimes did. Um, 03:48:13.190 --> 03:48:16.947 but I don't think we're in one of those... Like, there, there's 03:48:17.030 --> 03:48:20.727 some major issues like the uncertain future of technologies, what they might 03:48:20.810 --> 03:48:22.810 do, exactly what you were talking about. 03:48:23.710 --> 03:48:27.210 I think they're solvable problems to a certain degree. Like, if we can 03:48:27.630 --> 03:48:31.746 rein in some elites, a lot of these problems can be fixed, 03:48:31.829 --> 03:48:33.350 and that's not like a 03:48:33.570 --> 03:48:37.270 super difficult... I mean, it's difficult, but it's not, like, impossible. 03:48:37.390 --> 03:48:41.287 Look, so I grew up during the Cold War. Uh, 03:48:41.370 --> 03:48:45.187 let's just take the '80s, for example. And in the '80s, like, there was a 03:48:45.270 --> 03:48:48.987 pervasive sense that nuclear war could happen at any time and just 03:48:49.070 --> 03:48:51.180 annihilate everything, and we lived under that. 03:48:51.263 --> 03:48:52.967 If you look at the popular culture of 03:48:53.050 --> 03:48:56.960 the '80s, it's, like, all, like, upbeat and cheerful and naive and- 03:48:57.210 --> 03:49:01.087 ... like, there was just no correlation. And then you move into the '90s, and the 03:49:01.170 --> 03:49:04.987 Cold War is over, and everyone's all depressed. The music gets 03:49:05.070 --> 03:49:08.770 all, like, whiny, and it's like, "What happened?" 03:49:08.930 --> 03:49:12.847 There's just no correlation. Anyway, I just think that the, the, it's 03:49:12.930 --> 03:49:16.297 a pervasive sense of hopelessness or, you know- 03:49:16.380 --> 03:49:20.130 ... Despair doesn't always match with, 03:49:20.610 --> 03:49:24.410 like, if you look at the situation objectively. I mean, yeah, it's, it, it 03:49:24.530 --> 03:49:30.570 can be pretty bad. I-- But there's so much that's happening that is good- 03:49:30.810 --> 03:49:32.287 ... All the time, so. 03:49:32.370 --> 03:49:36.267 - I think this period of human history will be-- 'cause we've talked 03:49:36.350 --> 03:49:39.367 about the ups and downs of the Roman Empire. I think 03:49:39.450 --> 03:49:43.250 unquestionably, this period in history, the 20th, 03:49:44.410 --> 03:49:48.230 the, the late 20th century and the 21st century will be 03:49:48.370 --> 03:49:52.970 seen as the flourishing of humans. So if we actually just wake up- 03:49:53.110 --> 03:49:59.297 ... it's like what everything around us, by most measures of human flourishing- 03:49:59.380 --> 03:50:00.780 ... we're doing pretty good. 03:50:01.010 --> 03:50:06.725 - The amount of, like, sheer misery is probably objectively decreasing every 03:50:06.809 --> 03:50:11.127 year. Now, you know, we're also creating problems, yes, that will cause 03:50:11.210 --> 03:50:14.947 misery down the road. Yeah, yes. But overall, I 03:50:15.030 --> 03:50:18.290 don't see a reason to despair and not have hope. 03:50:19.190 --> 03:50:20.440 - Yeah. We're doing okay. 03:50:21.700 --> 03:50:24.717 - We can do better. Let's do better. But yeah. 03:50:24.800 --> 03:50:30.227 - That's the... Let's do better. Well, Anthony, this was an incredible 03:50:30.310 --> 03:50:32.390 conversation. Thank you for all the 03:50:33.210 --> 03:50:36.430 Amazing work you do and for the whirlwind journey 03:50:37.270 --> 03:50:41.250 through such a fascinating part of human history. 03:50:41.350 --> 03:50:43.450 this was fun. Thank you for talking today. 03:50:43.670 --> 03:50:47.547 - It was a pleasure to be here, and thank you for, not just for 03:50:47.630 --> 03:50:51.567 inviting me, I mean, this is probably the, the largest audience, you know, I've, 03:50:51.650 --> 03:50:55.270 I've ever spoken to but also just for giving my, my field and this, 03:50:55.590 --> 03:50:59.137 this civilization that I study the opportunity to be seen and heard from more 03:50:59.220 --> 03:50:59.527 people. 03:50:59.610 --> 03:51:03.430 I think that's very important. You've, you've done a real service here, so 03:51:03.570 --> 03:51:04.920 I wanna thank you for that. 03:51:05.410 --> 03:51:06.243 - Thank you. 03:51:07.030 --> 03:51:10.947 Thanks for listening to this conversation with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this 03:51:11.030 --> 03:51:14.907 podcast, please check out our sponsors in the description, where you can also find 03:51:14.990 --> 03:51:18.930 links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. 03:51:19.520 --> 03:51:25.690 And now, let me leave you with some words from Benjamin Franklin. "A great empire, 03:51:26.730 --> 03:51:31.470 like a great cake, is most easily diminished at the edges." 03:51:32.690 --> 03:51:35.810 Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.