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- We're talking about a society
that was right in the middle

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of one of the main corridors
of empire building and new religions

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in the world. This is the most dangerous
neighborhood that you can possibly live

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in. - 26 emperors were murdered
in a period of 50 years.

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- Yes. It's tremendous instability.

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- Almost all were of these emperors
were generals, and almost all were

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murdered by their men. So civil war was
the norm, hyperinflation, economic crash,

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plus there's a plague.
There's just a lot of chaos.

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- Here's why I don't think
the Eastern Roman Empire is a military

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dictatorship. Even though, again,
the emperors control the armies,

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and the armies themselves
will often have a say in,

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Who becomes emperor, like through the
civil wars that we mentioned. The reason

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why I don't think it's
a military dictatorship is because

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they almost never, very, very, very rarely
use the army as an instrument of social

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control. Sometimes these
eunuchs were extremely competent

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like Narses, Justinian's general,
who defeated the Goths in Italy in this

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massive battle. Like, this guy
was a total hardass. And he's this little

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old man. He was- he was very old,
and he was tiny, and he was a eunuch,

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and the Goths laughed at him,
but he had the last laugh.

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- The following is a conversation
with Anthony Kaldellis, a

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historian of the Eastern Roman Empire,
also known as the Byzantine Empire.

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This is a Lex Fridman podcast. To support
it, please check out our sponsors in the

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description, where you can
also find links to contact me,

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ask questions,
give feedback, and so on. And

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now, dear friends,
here's Anthony Kaldellis.

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You've described that the
Byzantine Empire is the Roman

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Empire, that calling it the Byzantine
Empire is an invention of

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historians writing long after
the empire has collapsed,

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that the people of that time
considered themselves Romans, and that

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the so-called Byzantine Empire
never actually existed, that it was,

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in every legal and cultural
sense, the Roman Empire

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continuing unbroken. So let's get
our terms right in the grand historical

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context.

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What is the Byzantine Empire, and why
should we just call it the Roman Empire?

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- So Lex, the burden of proof is on those
who would assert that what we've been

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calling the Byzantine
Empire is something other-

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... than the Roman Empire, because all
of our sources are very clear about this.

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And we've known about

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this. We've always known about it. It's
almost a form of cognitive dissonance,

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right?

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It's like when you know something is the
case, but you carry on as if it's not.

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So the Eastern Roman Empire,
this is the direct continuation

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of the ancient Roman Empire in the East,
right? Everybody knows the Western Empire

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fell in the fifth century.

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And for many conceptions of Western
history, that was sufficient. Like,

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that's when we just called it. The Roman
Empire fell in the fifth century.

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And we kinda, yeah, we kinda know
that the eastern half survived,

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but we don't wanna include

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that in our cultural genealogy.
And so we kinda pretend that it became

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something else. But in fact, it called
itself the Roman Empire. Its subjects were

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Roman citizens. They called themselves
Romans all the way down through to the end

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and beyond. So there are a number
of reasons why Western Europeans wanted to

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think that the Eastern Empire is something
different, and those reasons have

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created these models where

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They were, they called it Empire
of the Greeks for 1,000 years,

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then they switched to Byzantine

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Empire for very political reasons.
Now that's collapsing.

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So we're now moving into a phase where
we have the long Roman Empire. We,

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we recognize that the history
of the Roman state, the Roman polity,

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is something that lasts
an extraordinarily long time.

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Very unique almost in history,
from antiquity,

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like the archaic period,
down to the 15th century.

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- I think it would be
really nice to actually look

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just for a brief moment
at the grand scale of the,

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the full Roman state as it
lasted for over 2,200 years.

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- Yeah.

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- So its founding, 753 BC, to let's say
the fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD.

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So can we try to give a big picture
overview of everything that happened?

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- Okay, so first we have a period of
the kings. This is almost legendary, from

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like the eighth century
BC down to around 510 BC.

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So this is when Rome is ruled
by a series of local kings.

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The kings are expelled, and the republic,
or what we call the republic,

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is instituted, and this is a
regime that's governed by mostly

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an aristocracy,
but with cooperation from the

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people of Rome. In various ways,
the arrangements change over the

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centuries. So that lasts
for about five centuries.

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And then we have the end of the republic
in the era of Julius Caesar and

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Augustus Caesar, when the civil wars lead
to the creation of an imperial monarchy...

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...right, under Augustus.
So that's, we date that roughly either,

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yeah, 27 BC, something like that.
And thereafter, it is an

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imperial monarchy for the
next millennium and a half.

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Very broadly, we can divide
that into two phases, one where the

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center of power is in Rome,
and one where it's in Constantinople.

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And, you know, we can debate the dates
of when that transition takes place.

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These big transitions usually take
place over long periods of time.

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They're not, like,

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very sudden. So that's the big picture.
Kings, republic, imperial monarchy.

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- The Roman Kingdom, the Roman
Republic, the Roman Empire.

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- Yes. - And then the West
and East Roman Empire.

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- Yes. - Uh, and then maybe what are
the different terms that we could be

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using for the Byzantine Empire,
including Byzantium?

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Is it also fair to say
the Late Roman Empire?

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- So Late Roman Empire we use
for both east and west, starting

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around the reign of Diocletian maybe,
even a bit earlier, so during the third

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century AD. And that goes down to maybe
the early seventh century. So that

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period we call Late Roman Empire. And

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if you ask me to define its principal
characteristics, it would probably

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be the tax system and the administration,
the bureaucracy...

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...of the later Roman Empire
is that that comes from mostly

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Diocletian and Constantine's reforms.

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- And Diocletian was in the 3rd century.

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- Yes, 284 to 305 AD. Yes.
A very important reformer.

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- And we'll talk about it,
but let's just do this whirlwind,

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and hopefully there'll be automagical
images somewhere overlaid, but- - Okay.

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- So in 753 BC, Rome, a small city state,
is founded, and in 509 BC, the kings are

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overthrown, and the Roman Republic
is born. 390 BC, the Gauls sack Rome,

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and this, I believe, among other events
throughout its history, is a formative

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trauma that hardens
Rome's security obsession.

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It turns out, throughout
its history, people want to

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attack from different directions,
and so you have to defend. So

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there's two wars, as we're actually
saying off mic. There's two kinds

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of military operations. One is wars
of conquest and expansion, and one is

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more defensive. And we'll
talk about how the military

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changes throughout its history to allocate
more effort to one versus the other.

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In 264 to 146 BC, the Punic

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Wars and the survival against Hannibal
transform Rome into a Mediterranean

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superpower. Then like you mentioned,
Caesar in 49 to 31 BC,

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Caesar's crossing of the Rubicon
to assassination of Caesar to

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the Battle of Actium,
and then the Civil War dismantles

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the Republic and concentrates power in a
single ruler, Octavian, AKA Augustus, the

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first Roman emperor, let's say. Then
27 BC, Augustus founds the Principate,

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really low-key monarchy.
And so officially, that ends the

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Republic, and then that begins, 27 BC
to 180 AD, the Pax Romana, which is a

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period of relative peace and stability.
And a lot of the emperors we know of,

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the sexy, popular emperors
all come from that period.

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Marcus Aurelius, who I'm a big fan of,
from that period. Then that

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takes us to 284 AD, the guy we mentioned,

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Diocletian, who rebuilds the state.
Emperors drop the first citizen mask,

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this perception of the way, and we'll
talk about this, the persona that's

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presented by the state. 312 AD,
Constantine defeats Maxentius at the

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Milvian Bridge to become the sole ruler of
the western half of the empire, and then

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founds Constantinople in 330 AD. East
and West are split in 395 AD. Visigoths

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sack Rome in 410 AD. The West
falls at 476 AD as the last Western

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emperor is deposed. And then we sort of
focus more on the East Roman Empire with

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527. In the 6th century,
Justinian's reign.

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In the 7th century, Heraclius
defeats Persia and then loses against

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the Arabs. There's the Arab
conquest continuing in the 7th

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century. In the 8th the Arab
siege of Constantinople fails.

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There's the Macedonian dynasty in that you

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have an excellent book about.
And then the Crusades,

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and then eventually leading
to Constantinople falling in 1453 AD.

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As a person who understands
the full journey of it with

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a focus on East Roman history,
is there obvious glaring

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holes or incorrect things
in what I just said?

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- No, nothing incorrect. I would say
if you wanted to produce a sort of

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very swift timeline of its history,
it's obviously important to focus on the

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moments when lots of territory was

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lost to foreign invaders,
and these are actually three main

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moments. There's the Arab conquests in the

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630s. This is a decade. In a decade,
that war was lost. It is the Seljuk Turk

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conquest of Asia Minor,
modern Turkey, in the 1070s,

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and that was very swift and partly
reversed afterwards, but only partly.

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And then there's the Fourth Crusade,
1204, when the armies from

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mostly France sack,
conquer Constantinople,

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and dismember the empire as

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much as they could. It didn't last
that long. The Romans managed to

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regroup and recover but those
are the three main crisis points.

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They are very swift,

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but they cause incredible damage.

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For all the rest of its
history, it is a state and

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society that is generally sort
of consolidating, you know, regrouping,

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and generally engaged in slow
but steady economic growth,

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territorial expansion
on a small scale, but steady.

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Uh, so we can talk about this.
It's... I think it's an important thing

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to keep in mind about the big picture,
that the defeats were swift

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and kind of, you know, terrible. But most
of its history is one of slow growth.

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- There's some traumatic events
that have a big impact, but a

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lot of the developments
we'll talk about it might

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seem or feel like there's
a particular moment

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when those developments or changes in
the way the government or the military is

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structured arise,
but really it's a gradual process.

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- Exactly. - And so that's the tension
we have to be constantly dancing with.

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- Yeah, so as historians, this is a point
of method, and it's very important. There

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are moments when, like,
individuals with a great deal of power

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make choices that impact everybody
else and have, you know, long-term

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consequences downstream.

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Constantine's conversion
to Christianity, for example, right?

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Not something that anybody
could have or did predict. Okay.

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Otherwise, most of the
developments that we identify by

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specific dates, like you mentioned 395,
the division of the eastern and

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the western

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empires, those are conventional dates
that we use to actually capture what is in

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fact a much longer process.
There was no split between the two

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halves. It was one among many

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allocations of jurisdiction to, like, one
son and another son in the east and the

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west. The two halves were subsequently
reunited, then they kind of

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divided again among different
emperors. It's just a process,

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and so we sometimes use fixed dates
for what is in fact a process. Or for

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76, the fall of the Western Empire,
that's just the last date. It's

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actually a very long
process that took decades.

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Right? So that's just
something to keep in mind,

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that sometimes we're
talking about processes,

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sometimes we're talking about
very discrete events with long-term

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consequences. Yeah.

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- Maybe an impossible question
for a Roman state that lasted

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over 2,200 years,
but is there a kind of through

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line, a thread, a soul that runs
through the entire history of the Roman

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Empire? As you said, it's a slow

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transformation and evolution.
But if we dare call the whole

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thing Roman, Rome, the Roman state- - Yes

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00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:04,688
-... is there some aspect, some
characteristics that run through the whole

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thing?

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00:14:05,930 --> 00:14:10,430
- I think so, yes. By the way, you know
the metaphor of the Ship of Theseus?

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Okay. So in case the audience doesn't
know it, this is when there's a ship,

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and it's, you know, at sea, and over time,
like, every component of that ship

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is replaced with some other component,
so that by the end of the story, it

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has none of the original parts.
But it's, like, in a

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certain sense still that ship because
of the story, right? The... Okay.

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So Roman history is different
from, let's say, Greek history

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or Christian history, right? Christian
history is the story of a religion.

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It can be

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in any country, among any ethnic group.
It's here, there, right? It's everywhere.

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But you still have
histories of Christianity.

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It's the same with,
like say, Greek culture-

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... or your Greek literature, right?
It's not a function of a particular

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state. Ancient Greeks were
famously never united in a state.

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But it's people who culturally accept that

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00:15:00,530 --> 00:15:04,347
tradition as their kind of elite
prestige culture and engage

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with Homer and Plato and so forth.
And they can be anywhere.

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Roman history is not like that. Roman
history is very specifically the history

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of a state or a political
community. And so this is the

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community of the Roman people,
the Roman citizens. And it

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is in gradual evolution, but at no
point is there a rupture in that

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history such that its members
would ever think that something

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dramatic had changed,
and that they're no longer part of that

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story. So in the same way
as the ship I just mentioned,

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in other words, it's the narrative that
you tell about it where the changes that

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take place to it make sense only when you
see them within the context of that story.

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It's the same with Roman history.
Yes, there are changes. Like, eventually

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everything changes. But it happens
so gradually that it doesn't

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seem that way to anyone living in it.

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And so the narrative
of the history of the Roman

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people is what holds all of this together.

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- How important is it that,
so you mentioned Greek culture. So a lot

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of my friends who are Greek are
extremely proud of being Greek.

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There's certain cultures that are proud.

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- Sure. - And it's not a momentary
ephemeral thing. It feels

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like a thing that has
lasted for many generations.

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00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:23,827
- Oh, yeah. - And so that is an
engine that propagates through

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time that carries that culture
forward. And so does

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00:16:27,890 --> 00:16:31,827
a similar thing apply for the Roman
Empire in a different way? Maybe

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because you say it's a political kind
of community, that means a set of ideals.

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And we'll talk about, because
those ideals become even more

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concretized and explicit,
I think, through the East Roman

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Empire, because one of the things
you talk about is that the

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citizens of the empire are kind
of all connected, that they are—

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... engaged in this whole
sort of machinery. Anyway,

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that's a complicated way of asking,
is there some elements that Greek

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pride, dare I speak, is there some kind
of Roman pride that propagates the thing?

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- Oh, there totally is. You can find
authors and historical agents who

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definitely display this or talk about it.
But we don't want to make that

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the center of the story or the basis
for any analysis because... So what you're

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observing in your Greek friends is also
the result of modern nation building,

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00:17:25,350 --> 00:17:27,687
is it's the result of modern
systems of education,

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and sort of national identities,

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00:17:29,370 --> 00:17:32,687
and these are fostered and created
through all kinds of media and

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institutions. It's just a different
situation altogether. What you

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00:17:36,430 --> 00:17:43,430
find in ancient republics or medieval
states is more something like a consensus

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to be ruled, to be, to rule and to be
ruled in this particular political

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community.

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Now, some members of it may definitely,
and in fact did have this kind of pride.

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I'll give you an example. So there's
an ambassador in the sixth century,

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and he's concluding

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a deal with the Persians.
And you know, the Persians are skeptical

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cause, you know, Romans can't always
be trusted. But this guy says to them,

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he says,

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00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:10,570
and let me just tell you, you're
making a deal here with the Romans.

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The Romans. The name should say it all."

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Like, you, okay, and you
get a sense that this is,

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00:18:15,712 --> 00:18:17,587
he's expressing a certain pride in, like,

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00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:21,048
being a bearer of the Roman tradition and
speaking for the emperors and the Roman

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Empire. I mean, that's, for him,
this was something very, very momentous.

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You find these kinds of

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examples, so these people exist.
But I wouldn't want to make that the basis

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for like an analysis of how
the society works as a whole.

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For the most part, it was something
like a consensus where, you

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know, subjects or citizens, however
you want to call them, they agree to—

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00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:48,367
let's say be taxed and be ruled
by political authorities because of what

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00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:52,030
they get in return, and there's
this kind of understanding of a

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00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:55,430
mutual set of responsibilities. And

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my concern, among other things,
is to try to explain how this

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society held together for so long. Pride,
yes, among some people, definitely. You

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00:19:06,330 --> 00:19:09,807
find it in the sources.
But sources are, texts are written by

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00:19:09,890 --> 00:19:13,827
literate, you know, usually elites.
So this is a small part

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00:19:13,910 --> 00:19:18,750
of the population. We can't automatically
extend their attitudes to everybody else.

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00:19:18,850 --> 00:19:22,011
So in dealing with everyone else, we have
to work with different kinds of materials,

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00:19:22,095 --> 00:19:22,747
different kinds of

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00:19:22,830 --> 00:19:26,430
assumptions. We can't just posit
that they're just proud of being Roman.

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00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,487
They could have been. We don't know that,
though. We can see other sorts of things

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00:19:30,570 --> 00:19:34,427
about them. Like, for example, did they
pay their taxes? Did they try to rebel and

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00:19:34,510 --> 00:19:37,860
leave the empire? So those are
the kinds of things that I look for.

292
00:19:37,950 --> 00:19:42,700
- Pride is one component, but there
could be other explanations and factors

293
00:19:43,930 --> 00:19:48,930
that explain what motivates a soldier
to defend the capital, for example.

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00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:53,047
Like, what motivates a

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00:19:53,130 --> 00:19:56,967
particular person to pay the taxes.
And then this is something that we'll

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00:19:57,050 --> 00:20:00,390
definitely talk about.
But just to linger at the big picture,

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00:20:01,570 --> 00:20:04,630
if the Romans from the
different periods met,

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00:20:06,170 --> 00:20:10,150
how different would they be
from each other? Like, if I

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00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:12,197
brought to you... This is one of those,
you know, there's like- - Yes, yes,

300
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,480
-... blind taste tests
you can do with food.

301
00:20:14,670 --> 00:20:17,270
- Yes. Pepsi and Coke. - Pepsi and Coke.

302
00:20:17,450 --> 00:20:21,750
- Yes. - If I brought you
a Roman from the kingdom period,

303
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:26,750
the republic period,
the early imperial period-

304
00:20:27,250 --> 00:20:29,642
- I mean, I get asked this
in a much more radical form,

305
00:20:29,725 --> 00:20:31,147
which is like if you take someone

306
00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:35,210
from, like, around 1453 who's
a Roman and a subject of this Roman,

307
00:20:35,310 --> 00:20:39,207
and compare, and, and, you know,
compare him or have him meet, you know,

308
00:20:39,290 --> 00:20:42,467
in your imagination with someone from
the ancient republic. Like, how- - Yeah,

309
00:20:42,550 --> 00:20:46,447
-... could they find any kind
of agreement on what it means to

310
00:20:46,530 --> 00:20:50,407
be Roman and recognize each other
as belonging to that polity? This, this

311
00:20:50,490 --> 00:20:54,347
is a very difficult thing to...
Like, now, I can point to a

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00:20:54,430 --> 00:20:58,307
number of things that they would
find eventually. And, you know,

313
00:20:58,390 --> 00:21:01,747
if you told them, "Yo, you're both Romans,
you're both from this long history,

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00:21:01,831 --> 00:21:04,386
now you have to find, you know,
what you have in common,"

315
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:06,107
I think they could find things. But

316
00:21:06,190 --> 00:21:08,840
before we talk about those,
if you wanna get into it,

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00:21:09,630 --> 00:21:13,307
let's just say that the
question can even be posed

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00:21:13,390 --> 00:21:17,310
about Romans who live at the same time.
I mean, if you take a

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00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:21,210
senator from the age
of Cicero and someone from the

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00:21:21,650 --> 00:21:25,467
slums of Rome, who's
maybe the son of a slave

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00:21:25,550 --> 00:21:29,470
who was brought from the East
by some general a generation ago,

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00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:34,147
and put them in a room and say,
"Now, you discuss. You're

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00:21:34,230 --> 00:21:37,233
both Romans. What do you have in common?"
They might have trouble in coming up

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00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:41,727
with something. Right?
So let's not minimize the sheer

325
00:21:41,810 --> 00:21:45,530
diversity of experiences
and sort of life experiences

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00:21:45,710 --> 00:21:48,130
of Romans who are living at the same time.

327
00:21:49,650 --> 00:21:52,910
The important thing is that a
change is always happening, and

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00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:57,267
from my standpoint this change is sort of

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00:21:57,350 --> 00:22:00,747
cumulative, so it results
in Greek-speaking Orthodox

330
00:22:00,830 --> 00:22:04,767
Christian Romans
in Constantinople who at first

331
00:22:04,850 --> 00:22:08,767
sight might have little
to do with Latin-speaking, you

332
00:22:08,850 --> 00:22:12,347
know, non-Christians or worshiping
the ancient gods, Romans from a

333
00:22:12,430 --> 00:22:16,167
republic in Rome. And those are very,
very different situations, and no

334
00:22:16,250 --> 00:22:20,107
doubt they would look and seem
foreign to each other, right? The

335
00:22:20,190 --> 00:22:25,287
question is, why do we assume that someone
like Hadrian, right, an emperor from the

336
00:22:25,370 --> 00:22:29,147
second century sort of a
very cosmopolitan figure

337
00:22:29,230 --> 00:22:32,650
who travels around the empire
with his Greek lover and,

338
00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:37,724
you know, writes poems and has
a Greek beard and, you know,

339
00:22:37,808 --> 00:22:39,530
loves Greek culture and

340
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:44,307
has much to do with someone
from the Middle Republic who's, you

341
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:48,327
know some warrior who's chasing
down cattle from the Samnites. I

342
00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:52,347
mean, and yet the way we
understand history is that, oh no,

343
00:22:52,431 --> 00:22:57,170
those belong together. Hadrian and this
ancient Roman from the fourth century BC.

344
00:22:58,250 --> 00:23:02,107
But not Hadrian and someone,
you know, an emperor a few

345
00:23:02,190 --> 00:23:06,337
centuries later who's just like him,
bilingual in Greek and Latin, who's

346
00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:09,790
... kinda cosmopolitan, who,
you know, reads the same stuff,

347
00:23:10,770 --> 00:23:14,570
because we posit this rupture
between Roman and Byzantine.

348
00:23:15,030 --> 00:23:18,860
- One of the ways we can try to analyze
this is, for example, looking at

349
00:23:18,970 --> 00:23:25,380
a very specific role in society across
time. So we can look at soldiers,

350
00:23:26,570 --> 00:23:29,767
how they solve violence,
for example. That's one way.

351
00:23:29,850 --> 00:23:33,647
So you're making me realize
that we can just take 1,000

352
00:23:33,730 --> 00:23:36,547
different professions
and positions in society and really

353
00:23:36,630 --> 00:23:41,597
specifically look at what
the experience of the world was like.

354
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,520
And so one of them
is the view on violence,

355
00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:53,250
Across time. And, and then the other
is the view on the role of the,

356
00:23:54,150 --> 00:23:57,270
the government-... across time.

357
00:23:57,690 --> 00:24:00,786
- That's an excellent way of putting it.
So take soldiers, for example.

358
00:24:00,869 --> 00:24:05,110
They swear an oath. Right? Now, we don't
have the oath for every given period.

359
00:24:05,990 --> 00:24:08,782
We have some approximations of it,
some hints of what it contained,

360
00:24:08,866 --> 00:24:09,767
but we know that Roman

361
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:13,570
soldiers swore an oath like,
throughout all of the centuries of the

362
00:24:13,670 --> 00:24:17,527
empire. Sometimes they might add,
like, a Christian formula

363
00:24:17,610 --> 00:24:24,610
to it. Sometime before that, not.
But they swore basically to protect the

364
00:24:25,150 --> 00:24:28,797
republic or depending
on what term they used or the

365
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,487
empire or the emperor.
And this is something that they would have

366
00:24:32,570 --> 00:24:36,347
recognized very quickly. Like,
if, if they met each other over

367
00:24:36,430 --> 00:24:38,177
time and said, "Hey,
what was your oath like?"

368
00:24:38,261 --> 00:24:41,427
And they recited it this would
have made much sense to them, right?

369
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:47,147
Or take, for example, a woman who runs
a business, right? From any century of the

370
00:24:47,230 --> 00:24:52,340
empire. It, it would have been, especially
the later you go, the, the more so,

371
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,777
that this woman is enabled
to do this by virtue

372
00:24:56,860 --> 00:25:00,397
of Roman law. Of certain,
you know, Roman law of

373
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,540
property and inheritance
and, and marriage, but

374
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,397
also regulations regarding
who can do what and what

375
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:11,100
kinds of properties women can
handle and under what circumstances.

376
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,460
This is something that Roman women had in
common that many other cultures did not.

377
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:20,657
So I'll give you an example.
So for example, in the 10th,

378
00:25:20,740 --> 00:25:26,067
11th century, there are Jewish women
who live in the Eastern Roman Empire-

379
00:25:26,150 --> 00:25:31,757
... who realize that they have
more rights in Roman courts than in

380
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:36,180
rabbinical ones, and they take
their disputes to the Roman courts.

381
00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:40,620
Now, the thing is that for the Romans,
these are property matters-

382
00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:44,077
... not religious matters. But for the
rabbis, these are religious matters.

383
00:25:44,161 --> 00:25:46,940
But the Roman courts
trump the Jewish courts-

384
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:50,242
... in the empire, right? And so you end
up with a situation where Jewish women

385
00:25:50,326 --> 00:25:51,680
have more rights-

386
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,050
... than Jewish women do elsewhere,
because where Roman law is not operative.

387
00:25:56,860 --> 00:26:00,797
And there you go. Right? Like,
these things matter, right? And that's a

388
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,130
function of imperial law.

389
00:26:02,540 --> 00:26:06,500
- And this, this would be an interesting
actually interplay between the law

390
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,580
and religious institutions-...
Throughout the East-... uh, Roman Empire.

391
00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:16,745
So you argue that even though
the personality of the various emperors

392
00:26:16,828 --> 00:26:20,937
varied, as we'll talk about,
and as they're often venerated,

393
00:26:21,020 --> 00:26:22,880
celebrated, criticized, talked about,

394
00:26:24,120 --> 00:26:27,697
the late Roman Empire
was projecting a persona to its

395
00:26:27,780 --> 00:26:30,740
citizens that was consistent
throughout its history.

396
00:26:31,620 --> 00:26:35,277
Can you describe what you mean by this
and describe the different detailed

397
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:36,917
characteristics of this persona?

398
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:43,793
- Yes. So this persona, it's what
the governments or the emperor, the court,

399
00:26:43,877 --> 00:26:48,170
and the spokesman, the bureaucracy
want their subjects to think,

400
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,686
This whole thing is about.
Like, how is power being used, why,

401
00:26:53,769 --> 00:26:55,230
and for whom, right?

402
00:26:56,220 --> 00:27:00,057
And they do so in laws that

403
00:27:00,140 --> 00:27:04,037
they promulgate throughout the empire.
Sometimes they have these laws read in

404
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,917
church, for example, or posted publicly.
They're definitely eager to

405
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,650
have them communicated
to as many people as possible.

406
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:15,137
But they're also a function
of imperial rhetoric so the way

407
00:27:15,220 --> 00:27:18,857
you praise an emperor, the way you
talk about an emperor. You find this

408
00:27:18,940 --> 00:27:22,537
language in petitions,
so this is a hugely important

409
00:27:22,620 --> 00:27:26,337
glue for this society,
is that anyone could

410
00:27:26,420 --> 00:27:29,997
basically petition the authorities
for let's just say just about anything.

411
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,517
That's not technically true,
but there's a lot of petitioning going

412
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,457
on. So, you know, if you think
something's wrong or you've been

413
00:27:37,540 --> 00:27:41,317
treated unjustly, you can
petition local officials, even

414
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,157
imperial officials. You can petition
the emperor, you can... Right? And the

415
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,508
expectation is that that petition
will be read, addressed, and answered.

416
00:27:48,591 --> 00:27:52,341
It might not be answered in the way
that you want, but it will be answered.

417
00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:56,897
And those responses contain this
language also, right? So these are

418
00:27:56,980 --> 00:28:00,657
the different media through which
the emperors are broadcasting this

419
00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:04,057
persona, and that persona is what?
Basically, that the

420
00:28:04,140 --> 00:28:07,960
authorities are responsive
to the needs of their subjects,

421
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,697
that they are often accountable.
In other words, they understand

422
00:28:12,780 --> 00:28:15,130
that they are exercising public power,

423
00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:19,797
and that their mandate
is to exercise it solely for the

424
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,237
benefit of their subjects.
They keep saying this. Um,

425
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,577
so renouncing any kind
of private interest. In other

426
00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:30,357
words, "We're not doing
this for our benefit," say the

427
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,890
authorities. "We're doing
this for your benefit."

428
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:36,477
Also that they're proactive.
So the emperors are constantly

429
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,670
saying that, "We're planning ahead.

430
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,337
We're trying to foresee what problems
you might have, and we are solving

431
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:46,570
them at, before you experience them."

432
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,900
And that they are also working very hard.
So hardworking. In fact,

433
00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:54,840
the one of the cliches that they
keep using is sleepless. The emperors

434
00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:58,817
keep saying that, "I'm losing sleep over
this. I'm not sleeping at night because

435
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:02,240
I'm just worrying so much about
your problems and how to solve them."

436
00:29:02,324 --> 00:29:06,777
Justinian, for example, was publicly
known as the sleepless emperor, and not

437
00:29:06,860 --> 00:29:10,560
because he was a demon whose head
floated around in the palace on its own,

438
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:11,810
which some people

439
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:13,937
- That's the thing? - It was a thing, yes.

440
00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:15,177
- Okay. - That's a whole thing.

441
00:29:15,260 --> 00:29:17,087
- But sleepless in terms
of worked so hard- - Yes.

442
00:29:17,170 --> 00:29:19,300
-... there's no time to sleep.

443
00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:23,937
- He was a workaholic.
That is conceded by even his enemies.

444
00:29:24,020 --> 00:29:27,897
All night he was up just hauling
officials in at any old hour to

445
00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:31,897
talk about whatever, you know,
wars and architecture and laws and the

446
00:29:31,980 --> 00:29:36,037
religion and theology and whatever. So the
emperors are projecting this image, right?

447
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,000
So that's what I call the persona.

448
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:44,180
Tireless effort to work on behalf
of subjects, to do so responsibly,

449
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:48,720
to be responsive and accountable.
In other words,

450
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,060
if some of my officials
breaks the law or oppresses

451
00:29:53,220 --> 00:29:56,717
you, I'm giving you
instruments, like legal

452
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,230
instruments, by which
to hold them to account.

453
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,520
So that's the persona.
It's very consistent,

454
00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:07,277
And I think it's part of the
mechanism of tying the society

455
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,260
together. In other words, if subjects
think that their emperors are like this,

456
00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:17,010
right, they're more likely to agree to
the consensus of essentially paying taxes.

457
00:30:17,580 --> 00:30:20,580
- And you draw this distinction
between rhetoric and action,

458
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,957
what the authorities say and what
they actually do. So when you say

459
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:30,727
persona in the modern times, some of that
could be reframed as propaganda- - Yeah.

460
00:30:30,810 --> 00:30:36,180
-... for example.
And propaganda implies that the rhetoric,

461
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,900
that there's a big gap
between the rhetoric and the

462
00:30:40,020 --> 00:30:43,817
action. And one of the things you said you
took away from reading Machiavelli is that

463
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:47,740
we should judge people not by what
they say, but by what they do.

464
00:30:48,460 --> 00:30:52,297
So how much of the Roman Empire's
government of what they espoused

465
00:30:52,380 --> 00:30:56,360
was merely rhetoric, and how
much was true in how they acted?

466
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,380
- Yes. This is a key lesson I
took from reading Machiavelli, and

467
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,480
I found this a very insightful
way of thinking about politics, and

468
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,027
I would recommend that anybody kind of
practice this way of looking at the world,

469
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:12,907
right? People and states and,
you know, powerful people can say

470
00:31:12,990 --> 00:31:15,249
anything they want to.
At the end of the day,

471
00:31:15,332 --> 00:31:17,310
what matters is what they actually do.

472
00:31:18,250 --> 00:31:21,307
And this doesn't mean
that what they say is

473
00:31:21,390 --> 00:31:26,990
irrelevant, even if it's discordant
with what they do. But nevertheless,

474
00:31:27,810 --> 00:31:31,647
In the case of the East Roman state,

475
00:31:31,730 --> 00:31:35,387
so my research suggests that
the emperors and the authorities

476
00:31:35,470 --> 00:31:39,110
were generally sincere in what
they said. In other words,

477
00:31:39,710 --> 00:31:45,390
I have found that they generally did what
they said they were going to do overall.

478
00:31:46,210 --> 00:31:50,147
Not perfectly, obviously. And of course,
these are human beings we're talking

479
00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:54,107
about. The, right, the human societies,
there was a lot of, you know,

480
00:31:54,190 --> 00:31:56,257
corruption, and you name it. Abuse-

481
00:31:56,340 --> 00:32:00,100
... of course. Of course there is.
But overall, I think that there was

482
00:32:00,770 --> 00:32:04,747
a sufficient level
of understanding that the emperors

483
00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:08,141
are in fact doing this, and they
were actually incentivized to do this.

484
00:32:08,224 --> 00:32:08,747
We can talk

485
00:32:08,830 --> 00:32:14,030
about how. Because they were also in a
pretty vulnerable situation too, so they

486
00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:18,390
needed their subjects to be
relatively content on this front.

487
00:32:18,930 --> 00:32:22,550
- Isn't this surprising to you?
So, you know, from the

488
00:32:22,770 --> 00:32:27,870
outsider point of view, Roman emperors,
even in the East Roman Empire,

489
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:32,927
technically have a lot of power.

490
00:32:33,010 --> 00:32:36,800
You can even say in some
cases absolute power, and yet

491
00:32:37,610 --> 00:32:44,040
they seem to be awfully worried...
to make everybody in the empire happy.

492
00:32:44,650 --> 00:32:48,317
What explains that?
Like what, what explains the small

493
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,820
gap between rhetoric and action
in the East Roman Empire?

494
00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:56,950
- A number of things, but ultimately it
is that there is no right to the throne.

495
00:32:57,950 --> 00:33:02,630
And this is a function of the Roman
matrix of politics here. In other words,

496
00:33:03,850 --> 00:33:05,990
So here's a bit of a paradox.

497
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:10,707
What we call the Roman Republic
was the most imperialistic

498
00:33:10,790 --> 00:33:14,890
phase of Roman history. Like this is when
the Romans did most of their conquering.

499
00:33:15,130 --> 00:33:18,927
What we call the empire is much
less imperialistic in this way.

500
00:33:19,010 --> 00:33:22,727
That's much more defensive in its
approach, right? And yet our

501
00:33:22,810 --> 00:33:29,810
terms are a little mismatched in that way.
The empire is more a function of the,

502
00:33:30,630 --> 00:33:36,227
That it has an emperor rather
than it is engaged in imperialism.

503
00:33:36,310 --> 00:33:40,147
And that emperor emerged
out of the republic.

504
00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:43,730
But emerged out of the republic
in a very strange way. In other words,

505
00:33:44,210 --> 00:33:47,930
not as a dynasty that created the

506
00:33:48,050 --> 00:33:51,950
state. So for example, if you think
of the Ottoman Empire, many other empires,

507
00:33:52,670 --> 00:33:57,657
they... The whole thing existed because
this dynasty engaged in conquest and-

508
00:33:57,740 --> 00:34:01,281
... was successful in creating the state,
and so the dynasty was like at the heart

509
00:34:01,365 --> 00:34:05,427
of the state. But that's not
at all the case in the Roman

510
00:34:05,510 --> 00:34:09,167
Empire. The emperor is a
figure who emerged within a

511
00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:12,927
republic, and in order
to create peace after the

512
00:34:13,010 --> 00:34:16,907
civil wars, those emperors had to,
for a long time, kind of

513
00:34:16,990 --> 00:34:23,347
pretend that they were not what they
really were. Um, basically, you know,

514
00:34:23,430 --> 00:34:27,227
continuing to flatter the idea of a
republic that is, you know, that has a

515
00:34:27,310 --> 00:34:31,107
first citizen maybe. "Oh, no,
no, I'm not a king. I'm just, I

516
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:33,257
have this office and that
office and that office."

517
00:34:33,340 --> 00:34:37,247
"Whatever the Senate has given me." Now,
we understand that's a facade, but the

518
00:34:37,330 --> 00:34:40,207
fact that they had to create
this facade at all is very important.

519
00:34:40,290 --> 00:34:41,687
- Can we actually just linger on that?

520
00:34:41,770 --> 00:34:45,187
I mean, how much of this... 'Cause you
said they had to create this facade.

521
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:46,103
- Yeah.

522
00:34:46,890 --> 00:34:52,250
- Did Augustus, who started the whole
thing, the first emperor of Rome,

523
00:34:53,070 --> 00:34:58,970
did he have to act that way? 'Cause he
kept acting like he's not an absolute-

524
00:34:59,330 --> 00:34:59,407
- Yes

525
00:34:59,490 --> 00:35:06,490
-... monarch, and he could have gone
hardcore, destroy the Senate, just full

526
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:11,127
hardcore rule, dictatorship.
- Well, then how does he govern then?

527
00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:13,447
- Uh, so he wants to be
an effective governor.

528
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:16,007
- Oh, yeah. - And he also
wants to not be overthrown.

529
00:35:16,090 --> 00:35:19,987
- Exactly. Because, you know,
just because you ended one civil war

530
00:35:20,070 --> 00:35:22,047
doesn't mean that there's
not going to be another.

531
00:35:22,130 --> 00:35:25,551
You have to create a consensus such that
people don't want to have another civil

532
00:35:25,635 --> 00:35:30,110
war. If he did what you said,
which he in theory could have done,

533
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:34,107
but that would've just led
to more wars, right? So the

534
00:35:34,190 --> 00:35:37,627
problem is that the emperors, even those
who come to power through violence, they

535
00:35:37,710 --> 00:35:41,587
can't prevent other people from trying
to come to power through violence

536
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:45,087
because like I said,
no one has a right to the throne.

537
00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:47,670
- We should also say one more thing where,

538
00:35:49,450 --> 00:35:55,870
dare I carefully say this,
but it seems like riots and civil wars

539
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:58,890
is a feature, not a bug of the system.

540
00:35:59,070 --> 00:36:02,560
- Yes. - This is a different thing
that we have to the modern day,

541
00:36:03,650 --> 00:36:07,387
is because the threat of a civil war,
a violent civil war where you

542
00:36:07,470 --> 00:36:11,477
overthrow the government
and there's just a lot of-

543
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,310
... death and struggle
for power is always a threat.

544
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:19,307
That's another incentive that,
I guess the stick, not the carrot, but

545
00:36:19,390 --> 00:36:21,910
the stick for the emperor to behave.

546
00:36:22,150 --> 00:36:25,967
- Yes. It's the main one.
In other words, just take the,

547
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:31,390
the thousand years that I study.
There's something like 120 civil wars.

548
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:34,850
Now, these are usually very swift.
They're over quickly,

549
00:36:35,610 --> 00:36:40,270
and they're never about ideology.
So they're not like modern civil wars.

550
00:36:40,430 --> 00:36:44,480
Right? It's about slavery or the rights
of kings or whatever. No, no, no. They're

551
00:36:44,610 --> 00:36:47,247
solely about who has the power.

552
00:36:47,330 --> 00:36:50,787
All sides have the same ideology.
They talk about, you know, the

553
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:54,647
responsibility of government in the same
way, right? They're just competing over

554
00:36:54,730 --> 00:36:56,710
who's the best man to do the job.

555
00:36:57,050 --> 00:37:00,867
Right? And so once you have that
situation... And it might not be a

556
00:37:00,950 --> 00:37:04,407
civil war, it could be a palace
coup, it could be a kind

557
00:37:04,490 --> 00:37:06,537
of fighting in the capital-

558
00:37:06,620 --> 00:37:10,620
... something like that. Once everyone's
taken their side and you have a winner,

559
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:15,003
that's the emperor, And you often
overthrow the previous regime.

560
00:37:15,087 --> 00:37:20,227
I'll give you some statistics.
Something like 46% of the emperors of

561
00:37:20,310 --> 00:37:25,620
Constantinople are overthrown through
violence. 46%. And that's almost half.

562
00:37:25,870 --> 00:37:29,767
Right? So that's a huge, that's a huge
number, which means that every emperor

563
00:37:29,850 --> 00:37:32,100
is vulnerable and insecure,
and they know it,

564
00:37:32,510 --> 00:37:36,360
right? So what they have to do is make
sure that that doesn't happen to them,

565
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:40,527
and the way to do that is not by arresting

566
00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:44,550
and executing everybody you think might
be a threat or just generally behaving

567
00:37:44,650 --> 00:37:48,467
like a, you know, a Caligula or a Nero.
That will just get you killed.

568
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:52,307
Like, they know this.
So the best way to avoid that

569
00:37:52,390 --> 00:37:56,107
fate is to actually do
the things that will make

570
00:37:56,190 --> 00:38:00,007
people happy so that they
don't support a rebel if a rebel

571
00:38:00,090 --> 00:38:02,740
decides to appear.
And sometimes rebels would appear.

572
00:38:03,170 --> 00:38:06,228
There's a kind of convention
in Constantinople, like if you...

573
00:38:06,311 --> 00:38:07,107
Sometimes you

574
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:10,242
you think, "Hmm, that emperor's pretty
unpopular and I think I can overthrow

575
00:38:10,325 --> 00:38:15,290
him." What you would do is you would
march down the center boulevard-

576
00:38:15,870 --> 00:38:19,727
... And, you know, you'd
have your people just call the

577
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:23,627
populace of Constantinople out
to rally, to you know, maybe go to

578
00:38:23,710 --> 00:38:27,447
Hagia Sophia, the, the church, and just
create a big crowd and call for the

579
00:38:27,530 --> 00:38:30,987
deposition of the emperor and, you know,
maybe that would hap- And sometimes it

580
00:38:31,071 --> 00:38:35,647
did, and sometimes it didn't, and the
rebel or wannabe rebel would sort of

581
00:38:35,730 --> 00:38:39,207
proceed down the Mese,
the boulevard, and people would just

582
00:38:39,290 --> 00:38:42,970
gradually just disappear,
and then he'd be left alone-

583
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:49,217
... and go up to Hagia Sophia as seeking
asylum. Right? So that's a bid.

584
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:53,147
That's someone making a bid for the
throne, and it just goes disastrously bad.

585
00:38:53,230 --> 00:38:55,217
Other times, the people come
out 'cause they hate the emperor,

586
00:38:55,300 --> 00:39:01,167
and they drag the emperor out and cut
his nose off or whatever. So emperors are

587
00:39:01,250 --> 00:39:05,007
constantly trying to prevent that
from happening, and the best way to do

588
00:39:05,090 --> 00:39:06,510
that is through goodwill.

589
00:39:07,420 --> 00:39:11,367
- I'm trying to load in that kind
of world 'cause it's a different

590
00:39:11,450 --> 00:39:14,047
world than we live in today. - Yes.

591
00:39:14,130 --> 00:39:20,610
- There's a constant inner workings
of policy development inside government.

592
00:39:20,850 --> 00:39:21,667
- Yes.

593
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:26,530
- But the check on power is, like,
literal, like, we will murder you.

594
00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:30,927
- Yes, it depends on the period.
Sometimes murder you, sometimes blind you,

595
00:39:31,010 --> 00:39:33,610
sometimes cut your nose off,
but there were periods-

596
00:39:33,950 --> 00:39:35,147
- Thank you for the nuance

597
00:39:35,230 --> 00:39:37,871
-... No, there were periods that were
more civilized. We'll just basically,

598
00:39:37,954 --> 00:39:39,654
you'll get retired to a monastery.

599
00:39:39,770 --> 00:39:43,690
- Right. - Okay. You're right.
So here's what elections do.

600
00:39:43,790 --> 00:39:47,770
Elections give a government a mandate
for, I don't know, four or five years,

601
00:39:48,610 --> 00:39:52,410
and during that period, you may be
unpopular, but you're legitimate,

602
00:39:53,050 --> 00:39:54,970
right, because of the institutions.

603
00:39:55,950 --> 00:39:59,630
Whereas in Constantinople, we don't
have those kinds of institutions.

604
00:40:00,590 --> 00:40:04,250
We have instead an ongoing referendum.

605
00:40:04,830 --> 00:40:07,130
We just call it a perpetual
referendum, right?

606
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:11,107
And in fact, the emperors are, they're
conducting opinion polls in a sense

607
00:40:11,190 --> 00:40:14,927
because they appear in public.
When they appear in public, everyone is

608
00:40:15,010 --> 00:40:19,010
expected to cheer and chant
acclamations, right, like,

609
00:40:19,870 --> 00:40:23,727
Slogans. Right? So you have
100,000 people in the Hippodrome

610
00:40:23,810 --> 00:40:27,587
all chanting, you know, "Worthy" or "Many
years for you, Augustus" or something

611
00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:29,407
like this.
And if that happens, it's great.

612
00:40:29,491 --> 00:40:31,667
But if you appear in the
Hippodrome and people are,

613
00:40:31,750 --> 00:40:36,570
like, sullen or if the chanting
is a bit tepid or if they're booing,

614
00:40:37,410 --> 00:40:38,977
then you know something's wrong, right?

615
00:40:39,060 --> 00:40:42,667
So you gotta find out what's wrong.
It could be something like the grain

616
00:40:42,750 --> 00:40:45,970
supply is, you know, not working or

617
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:49,370
whatever. And so emperors are
desperate to fix those problems.

618
00:40:49,990 --> 00:40:53,267
- And the Hippodrome
is this big gathering place in

619
00:40:53,350 --> 00:40:57,007
Constantinople, which I
guess a lot of people gathered

620
00:40:57,090 --> 00:41:01,567
at and did this kind of cheering
or not cheering based on policy and-

621
00:41:01,650 --> 00:41:06,220
... and whether the emperor
is popular or not. This was democracy.

622
00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:09,227
Uh, I apologize to use that term, but-

623
00:41:09,310 --> 00:41:13,067
... in our conception of what that means,
because what do we mean by

624
00:41:13,150 --> 00:41:16,567
democracy in the modern day
is that the people somehow have a

625
00:41:16,650 --> 00:41:20,270
connection to who leads and how they lead,

626
00:41:20,830 --> 00:41:25,681
and this is, the Hippodrome was that
connection between the people and

627
00:41:25,764 --> 00:41:29,841
the leaders. - Yes. Now, we can talk about
modern democracy if you, if you want.

628
00:41:29,924 --> 00:41:32,597
That's a, that's a, I have,
I have my own views about-

629
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,607
... modern democracy, and, and,
you know, how it works and how

630
00:41:36,690 --> 00:41:39,143
it doesn't and, anyway,
whether it is democracy, in fact,

631
00:41:39,226 --> 00:41:41,357
'cause there are other
models of democracy, like-

632
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,307
... ancient Athenian democracy, which
is a whole other thing. But you're right.

633
00:41:45,390 --> 00:41:49,147
So it's not just in the Hippodrome.
It's wherever people assemble in large

634
00:41:49,230 --> 00:41:52,820
numbers. So this could be
military mustering grounds,

635
00:41:53,470 --> 00:41:57,320
right? So the army. The army is also
the Roman people in a way, and the-

636
00:41:57,570 --> 00:42:01,227
in some cases, the most decisive
part of it, right? So if an

637
00:42:01,310 --> 00:42:04,710
army gathers together and they
decide they want a different emperor,

638
00:42:04,890 --> 00:42:08,707
that's serious, and that can happen
out in the provinces too. That doesn't

639
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:12,587
necessarily have to happen
in Constantinople. There's also Hagia

640
00:42:12,670 --> 00:42:16,387
Sophia, so the people gather
in the church, or they gather in

641
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:18,810
public spaces like
the Forum of Constantine.

642
00:42:19,270 --> 00:42:23,450
So this can happen anywhere where
a large number of people can gather,

643
00:42:24,390 --> 00:42:28,150
and it's, I don't know if you
wanna call it a democracy as such

644
00:42:28,610 --> 00:42:32,090
but it is definitely a form
of popular, mm, let's say

645
00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:36,010
consultation and a testing of consensus.

646
00:42:36,610 --> 00:42:41,820
I'll give you another example. So in the
1190s, the emperor, and it's Alexius III,

647
00:42:42,890 --> 00:42:45,330
he's being threatened by the German
emperor. German emperor's basically,

648
00:42:45,413 --> 00:42:49,563
"You, you, you pay me a bunch of money or
I'll invade." Just straight up extortion.

649
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:54,027
- Yeah. - Um, and Alexius decides, "Okay,
I'm gonna gather this money. I'm gonna

650
00:42:54,110 --> 00:42:55,110
impose these taxes."

651
00:42:55,930 --> 00:42:58,567
And he gathers the people in the
Hippodrome, and he says, "You know,

652
00:42:58,650 --> 00:42:59,687
we're gonna have the German

653
00:42:59,770 --> 00:43:04,070
tax." He called it the German tax.
And there's such an uproar

654
00:43:04,990 --> 00:43:08,907
in the Hippodrome against
this that he was like, "Uh, that

655
00:43:08,990 --> 00:43:11,370
wasn't my idea. I don't know where
that came from. No, never mind.

656
00:43:11,453 --> 00:43:12,567
We're not gonna have the German

657
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:16,450
tax." Fortunately, the German emperor
died and, and nothing ever happened,

658
00:43:17,050 --> 00:43:18,928
but it gives you a sense
of how emperors, like,

659
00:43:19,011 --> 00:43:20,867
literally can backtrack
when they see that the

660
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:24,850
people are against something in a matter
of policy, right-... like tax policy.

661
00:43:24,970 --> 00:43:27,550
So yeah, there was this give and take.

662
00:43:28,270 --> 00:43:32,187
So institutionally,
the emperor might look absolute, as

663
00:43:32,270 --> 00:43:36,115
you called him earlier.
In practice, no. No.

664
00:43:36,198 --> 00:43:39,680
The ones that did that didn't end well.

665
00:43:40,540 --> 00:43:44,347
- And we should say, going to Perplexity
here, the Hippodrome of Constantinople

666
00:43:44,430 --> 00:43:48,610
was the main stadium and social
center of the Byzantine capital,

667
00:43:49,570 --> 00:43:53,470
used primarily for chariot
racing and imperial ceremony,

668
00:43:53,570 --> 00:43:57,210
and today survives in Istanbul's
Sultanahmet district.

669
00:43:57,510 --> 00:44:01,467
And the reason I looked this up,
I wanted to see how many people. Shaped as

670
00:44:01,550 --> 00:44:05,390
a long U-shaped race course
with a central barrier

671
00:44:05,910 --> 00:44:09,470
and tiered seating, it may
have held from roughly thirty

672
00:44:09,590 --> 00:44:13,080
thousand up to a hundred
thousand spectators,

673
00:44:13,450 --> 00:44:18,307
though exact capacity is debated because
archaeological remains are limited.

674
00:44:18,390 --> 00:44:22,710
That's a lot of people. - Thirty thousand
is definitely a pretty un- underestimate.

675
00:44:22,930 --> 00:44:24,836
The Hippodrome is still there.
I mean, you can see it from,

676
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,870
it's like satellite photos.
The shape of it is still there.

677
00:44:28,010 --> 00:44:31,990
And actually some parts of the built,
the, the Sphendone, the, the sling

678
00:44:32,090 --> 00:44:35,947
around the southern side is still there.
You can walk around it. And it's right

679
00:44:36,030 --> 00:44:40,450
next to the palace. In other words,
emperors didn't have to go far. Now,

680
00:44:41,250 --> 00:44:45,167
sometimes there are events for replacing
an emperor. So say the emperor dies in

681
00:44:45,250 --> 00:44:50,010
his sleep, and there's no heir.
This happens in 491, for example.

682
00:44:51,110 --> 00:44:54,557
And so the people gather
in the Hippodrome in order to have a

683
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:57,038
discussion with the court
about whom to appoint. Now,

684
00:44:57,122 --> 00:44:58,567
in those kinds of contexts, it's

685
00:44:58,650 --> 00:45:02,530
entirely possible that there are
people also in the, the arena,

686
00:45:03,590 --> 00:45:07,487
like not just in the stands.
I think some military units might

687
00:45:07,570 --> 00:45:11,447
have just been arrayed there rather than
in the stands. So you can get more people

688
00:45:11,530 --> 00:45:13,658
than what we project
might fit in the stands,

689
00:45:13,741 --> 00:45:16,191
because they're not having
the races on that day.

690
00:45:16,430 --> 00:45:19,436
- We should say, so like, I think
the thing that was emphasized in the first

691
00:45:19,519 --> 00:45:20,369
paragraph is the,

692
00:45:20,830 --> 00:45:24,610
the athletic events and the
entertainment events, right? Like the

693
00:45:24,830 --> 00:45:28,210
imperial ceremony. But there
is a sort of a political gathering

694
00:45:28,850 --> 00:45:32,747
was also popular.
The Hippodrome was not just for sport. It

695
00:45:32,830 --> 00:45:36,820
was where emperors appeared before
the people, where acclamations,

696
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:40,527
public punishments, and political
demonstrations took place, and where the

697
00:45:40,610 --> 00:45:44,240
rival circus factions,
blues, greens, reds, whites,

698
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:48,360
became powerful social
and sometimes paramilitary forces.

699
00:45:48,810 --> 00:45:51,410
And this goes on and on and on.
So this was a place-

700
00:45:51,970 --> 00:45:55,327
- Oh, it's a very important place. Yeah,
-... for people to speak to the leader.

701
00:45:55,410 --> 00:45:58,250
- Yeah. Vent sometimes. Even insult them.

702
00:45:58,870 --> 00:46:02,767
- Yeah. This is fascinating. I mean,
it's human civilization. It's converged

703
00:46:02,850 --> 00:46:06,727
towards a mechanism that has
clearly worked, because

704
00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:10,747
for the empire in the East, stood

705
00:46:10,830 --> 00:46:15,210
for a thousand years. So it's,
it's fascinating. We as humans,

706
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:21,030
throughout our history, we try
to figure out, okay, how do we,

707
00:46:22,050 --> 00:46:24,930
figure out how to govern

708
00:46:25,850 --> 00:46:29,747
large collections of humans in a way
that they're represented, in the

709
00:46:29,830 --> 00:46:33,270
way that they don't riot,
they don't rebel.

710
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:37,000
Um, in the way that we
flourish together as a

711
00:46:37,150 --> 00:46:39,207
people, all this, all this kind of stuff.

712
00:46:39,290 --> 00:46:42,660
So this is a real...
The East Roman Empire is a real

713
00:46:42,810 --> 00:46:46,527
study of something that seemed
to have worked. There are

714
00:46:46,610 --> 00:46:50,087
lessons there even for the modern
times, I think. And modern times,

715
00:46:50,170 --> 00:46:54,070
again, is very early human civilization.

716
00:46:54,770 --> 00:46:58,527
- From a certain standpoint, yes, we are
still early in- - Trying to figure it out

717
00:46:58,610 --> 00:46:59,587
-... trying to figure it out.

718
00:46:59,670 --> 00:47:03,057
Yes. Now, mind you, I'm not
advocating for this type of social

719
00:47:03,140 --> 00:47:06,390
organization and government.
What I'm trying to do as a historian

720
00:47:07,070 --> 00:47:10,930
is understand how and why it survived

721
00:47:11,090 --> 00:47:14,830
and also to find the ways
that it worked, because it

722
00:47:15,010 --> 00:47:18,887
did work. We know that much. We have
to start from that. It survived. It

723
00:47:18,970 --> 00:47:20,870
was resilient. There was a lot of,

724
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:25,407
you know, give and take in the exercise
of power, and I want to understand the

725
00:47:25,490 --> 00:47:26,450
mechanisms of that.

726
00:47:27,630 --> 00:47:31,540
- So if we can, before we
go to Emperor Constantine the

727
00:47:31,690 --> 00:47:35,630
First and the founding of Constantinople,
can we look at some

728
00:47:36,550 --> 00:47:40,267
maybe seminal events
that led up to some of the

729
00:47:40,350 --> 00:47:43,967
topics we'll be talking about?
So one of them maybe tell me if this is

730
00:47:44,050 --> 00:47:51,050
not as interesting as I think it is, but
the Edict of Caracalla, in 212 AD. So this

731
00:47:52,010 --> 00:47:53,490
is where,

732
00:47:54,470 --> 00:47:58,387
You described that starting with Augustus
in the early imperial period, government

733
00:47:58,470 --> 00:48:01,390
saw itself as a protector
of the Roman citizens,

734
00:48:02,470 --> 00:48:06,127
which is a minority of the people
living in the, in the Roman

735
00:48:06,210 --> 00:48:10,050
Empire. It doesn't consider
the, the provincials.

736
00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:14,487
And then you described that
the Edict of Caracalla, that

737
00:48:14,570 --> 00:48:19,450
extended full Roman
citizenships to basically all,

738
00:48:20,350 --> 00:48:23,870
free inhabitants of the Roman Empire. So

739
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:27,390
what is it? Why was it done?
Why is it important?

740
00:48:28,330 --> 00:48:30,390
And how did it change the Roman Empire?

741
00:48:30,990 --> 00:48:34,890
- Right. I agree with you that this is,
in fact, a very important... It's

742
00:48:34,990 --> 00:48:38,890
a, it's a real turning point in a sense,
but it also is part of a process.

743
00:48:40,690 --> 00:48:47,690
So for various reasons, the Roman
polity tended to bestow its metropolitan

744
00:48:49,070 --> 00:48:54,060
citizenship, that is, Roman
citizenship, on its allies,

745
00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:58,320
and eventually in time,
on many people that it had conquered.

746
00:48:59,130 --> 00:49:02,830
And it had various mechanisms for doing
so. It could bestow block grants.

747
00:49:03,450 --> 00:49:07,167
Sometimes it allowed its generals
to bestow citizenship on people

748
00:49:07,250 --> 00:49:11,007
they thought would,
you know, would be necessary

749
00:49:11,090 --> 00:49:14,447
players for controlling local
societies. Sometimes they even

750
00:49:14,530 --> 00:49:18,147
allowed foreign cities to,
like non-Roman cities, to

751
00:49:18,230 --> 00:49:21,920
decide who would get Roman citizenship by

752
00:49:22,010 --> 00:49:24,433
basically electing them to certain
kinds of offices. Like they,

753
00:49:24,516 --> 00:49:26,016
they outsourced a lot of this.

754
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,537
And so you have over time
the steady growth of a

755
00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:34,497
Roman community of citizens
who are not all in Rome, and

756
00:49:34,580 --> 00:49:37,121
who are not all of Roman origin,
whatever that means, but they,

757
00:49:37,204 --> 00:49:39,954
they were not descended
from people who were from Rome.

758
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,900
And this proceeds, you know,
it expands, it expands, it expands.

759
00:49:44,260 --> 00:49:47,400
By Caracalla's time,
so early third century AD,

760
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:51,980
we can estimate that maybe at, at most, a

761
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,977
third of the free
citizens of the empire are

762
00:49:56,060 --> 00:49:59,880
Roman citizens. Everyone else
has local citizenship, like you're

763
00:50:00,180 --> 00:50:05,100
Alexandrian or Athenian or, or whatever.
And with... You're subject to those laws.

764
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:09,697
This emperor, Caracalla, now that's his
nickname. His reigning name is Marcus

765
00:50:09,780 --> 00:50:10,780
Aurelius Antoninus.

766
00:50:12,260 --> 00:50:15,537
So just like Marcus Aurelius,
it's sa- same name two generations later.

767
00:50:15,620 --> 00:50:19,477
- Some badass names for emperors, by the
way. I don't know if it's the chicken or

768
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,317
the egg, but just... some epic names.

769
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,557
- They've been remembered that way,
and so we read that back into the name—

770
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:26,877
- Yes, that's true.
-... and absolutely, yes.

771
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,187
- But anyway, Caracalla. Yeah.

772
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:31,637
- Yeah, so he issues
this edict in 212 called the

773
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:35,557
Constitutio Antoniniana,
named after him. Some people at the

774
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,290
time called it the Divine Decree,

775
00:50:37,980 --> 00:50:41,757
which basically extended citizenship to
everybody. Now, we don't know exactly why

776
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:43,680
he did so. We can guess

777
00:50:44,660 --> 00:50:48,517
the reasons that he said he did so,
and this was for religious

778
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:54,760
reasons. In other words, he wanted
people to go to the temples and pray and

779
00:50:54,880 --> 00:51:01,380
give thanks to the gods for him,
for his survival out of a coup.

780
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:05,390
Which is whatever. And it's

781
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,297
possible that there was some kind of
religious motivation here, and he wanted

782
00:51:09,380 --> 00:51:13,257
everybody to do so as Roman citizens
to honor the Roman gods and something like

783
00:51:13,340 --> 00:51:17,080
that. Other historians at the time
said he did it for tax reasons.

784
00:51:17,820 --> 00:51:21,617
We don't know exactly.
There might even have been

785
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:25,637
a kind of ideology of a
unified community across

786
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:29,620
the empire playing in his,
if not in his mind, in that of

787
00:51:29,780 --> 00:51:34,940
the jurists, that is the legal advisors
that he had. So that's possible. But

788
00:51:35,820 --> 00:51:42,820
less interesting than his motivations,
more interesting are the

789
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:46,750
consequences of this—... and what it
tells us about the Roman community. So

790
00:51:47,340 --> 00:51:54,330
imagine a situation where, like, no modern
empire has ever done this really, right?

791
00:51:55,540 --> 00:51:58,957
When what's significant about the Roman
case is that not only did they extend

792
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,857
citizenship to everybody, but they meant
it. This is something that had teeth. In

793
00:52:02,940 --> 00:52:06,677
other words, it meant that the rights
and opportunities that were available to

794
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,480
Roman citizens, say,
in the Roman Senate at Rome—

795
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:17,097
... are now available to everybody. And
within a generation, you have a situation

796
00:52:17,180 --> 00:52:20,360
where, like, all of the
emperors are provincials,

797
00:52:21,580 --> 00:52:25,057
right? All the most powerful people
in the empire are from the provinces.

798
00:52:25,140 --> 00:52:28,560
- This is, like, mind-breaking,
mind-blowing. This is incredible.

799
00:52:29,020 --> 00:52:33,320
The fact that the Roman Empire
was able to do this, and it stuck.

800
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:34,717
- They did it, and they meant it.

801
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,747
- And they meant it.
They implemented it. It was real.

802
00:52:37,830 --> 00:52:41,600
That's, that tells you, that's
an important thing that tells you a

803
00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:45,817
lot of information about
the populace of the Roman Empire.

804
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:49,440
That the, the fact that it stuck,
that the government meant it,

805
00:52:49,820 --> 00:52:53,957
that the system encouraged,
incentivized the government to mean it.

806
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:54,837
It's incredible.

807
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,697
- Yeah, and there's a law of citizenship,
and it, basically it says something like,

808
00:52:58,780 --> 00:53:01,630
"Anyone born within the Roman
Empire is a Roman citizen."

809
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,937
And the Roman jurists
and policymakers who were behind,

810
00:53:06,020 --> 00:53:09,597
This had some very interesting ideas
about, you know, creating this kind of

811
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,520
community. Look, like,
imagine if, I mean, it's almost

812
00:53:13,660 --> 00:53:17,537
impossible to, to imagine,
but the, the British at the

813
00:53:17,620 --> 00:53:21,477
time of the peak of the empire
bestowed British citizenship on

814
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:25,097
everyone, including in India, and, like,

815
00:53:25,180 --> 00:53:29,057
suddenly made positions
of power in London available to

816
00:53:29,140 --> 00:53:33,610
people from India, like, including
the throne. Like, it's just unthinkable.

817
00:53:34,140 --> 00:53:36,912
And that has to do, you know, with race
and colonialism and all kinds of things,

818
00:53:36,996 --> 00:53:37,829
right?

819
00:53:38,050 --> 00:53:41,937
But not in the Roman Empire.
So we have a situation where

820
00:53:42,020 --> 00:53:45,937
the emperors are all from the provinces.
The most powerful officials are

821
00:53:46,020 --> 00:53:49,840
all from the provinces.
And so a century later,

822
00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:53,870
when Constantinople is created,
this is, it's created,

823
00:53:54,260 --> 00:53:58,020
right, like, in, in the Bosporus,
so, like, where modern Istanbul is,

824
00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:02,717
in the Eastern Roman Empire.
It's created within the preexisting Roman

825
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,880
context, right? It doesn't bring
Romanness to the East. It's already there.

826
00:54:07,740 --> 00:54:11,730
And so it's not such a leap
to create a center of Roman power

827
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:13,500
in the East because of that.

828
00:54:13,860 --> 00:54:16,718
- And you've helped put together a book
on the history of intellectual thought in

829
00:54:16,801 --> 00:54:17,577
the East Roman Empire.

830
00:54:17,660 --> 00:54:21,317
But this is the interesting thing
here, and I can ask that many

831
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,237
times, but let me ask it here
also, is the great man, the

832
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:27,520
great woman view of history.

833
00:54:28,380 --> 00:54:33,640
Were there, like, Thomas Jefferson or
those types of characters in the meetings

834
00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:38,477
as they're executing
on the edict or developing

835
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:42,377
the edict? Is that important, or is it
more about the system and the culture and

836
00:54:42,460 --> 00:54:43,940
just, uh—

837
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:47,610
... is it, how important was it? 'Cause
this seems like a revolutionary idea,

838
00:54:47,693 --> 00:54:48,057
and when

839
00:54:48,140 --> 00:54:52,017
we think about the American Revolution
and the, the founding documents, it seems

840
00:54:52,100 --> 00:54:55,067
like a few individuals—

841
00:54:55,150 --> 00:54:59,140
... were really critical about the wording
of things, and then words matter

842
00:54:59,540 --> 00:55:03,340
because those words create the reality,
and then it propagates through time.

843
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,317
- Yeah. For the edict, I suspect that yes,
there were a few people who were behind

844
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,117
it, and quite possibly jurists,
that is Roman legal scholars.

845
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,900
And, and 212 is in an
age of very important

846
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:19,600
Roman legal scholars Ulpian,
for example, and others.

847
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:24,367
But we just don't have those... We, we
have-... minutes of the meetings for the-

848
00:55:24,450 --> 00:55:27,908
... American Revolution. Not only
do we not know who was in the room,

849
00:55:27,992 --> 00:55:29,697
we don't actually even have the whole

850
00:55:29,780 --> 00:55:33,797
edict. We have a papyrus fragment,
this is a piece of ancient paper—

851
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,437
... that's mostly torn and mutilated,
and we have, like, a bit of a

852
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:43,277
paragraph from it. Um, in Greek, not even
the Latin original. And it's kind of torn,

853
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,220
but it actually preserves
the key clause. Right? And that's,

854
00:55:48,450 --> 00:55:52,287
that's all we have of the original.
We have contemporary sources that

855
00:55:52,370 --> 00:55:55,630
mention it, we have legal
documents, but nothing like a,

856
00:55:56,670 --> 00:56:00,650
Like we can talk about
the people involved in it. Or even

857
00:56:00,750 --> 00:56:04,607
how it was immediately implemented.
Like, suddenly we know everyone in the

858
00:56:04,690 --> 00:56:08,227
provinces, like, there's this explosion
in the number of people called

859
00:56:08,310 --> 00:56:12,390
Aurelius, because that
was his Roman family name.

860
00:56:13,030 --> 00:56:18,170
Um, and so when you acquired citizenship
from that edict, you became an Aurelius.

861
00:56:18,350 --> 00:56:21,174
Right? And there are lots of Aurelii
suddenly all over the place. Like,

862
00:56:21,258 --> 00:56:26,377
we can see it immediately. Uh, but we
can't actually see the implementation.

863
00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:30,750
- But your instinct says that
individuals were very important

864
00:56:31,570 --> 00:56:33,707
in the development of that
idea and execution of it.

865
00:56:33,790 --> 00:56:37,627
- Probably, yeah. Yeah. Even though
it's part of a long-term process

866
00:56:37,710 --> 00:56:42,810
of expanding Roman citizenship, this was
a, an explosion, not just an expansion.

867
00:56:43,310 --> 00:56:46,970
- And then you said that one of the
important aspects about this edict is

868
00:56:47,070 --> 00:56:50,987
that giving equal rights to provincials

869
00:56:51,070 --> 00:56:53,420
was one of the things
that helped deal with the

870
00:56:53,790 --> 00:56:57,420
crisis of the third century,
and was the thing that,

871
00:56:57,990 --> 00:57:01,527
I think you said, quote,
"sapped discontent from the

872
00:57:01,610 --> 00:57:07,007
relevant populations," which then
minimized the probability of uprisings.

873
00:57:07,090 --> 00:57:09,567
- Well, now that's
a very long-term process.

874
00:57:09,650 --> 00:57:13,150
Now, the third century is chaos,
there's a crisis, it's a mess, right?

875
00:57:13,570 --> 00:57:19,930
So what follows the edict
is quite a few decades of unrest.

876
00:57:20,190 --> 00:57:21,487
- Okay, let's put it in mildly.

877
00:57:21,570 --> 00:57:25,490
Let's talk about the crisis
of the third century, where

878
00:57:25,730 --> 00:57:30,730
26 emperors were murdered
in a period of 50 years.

879
00:57:30,930 --> 00:57:32,910
- Yes. It's tremendous instability.

880
00:57:33,310 --> 00:57:37,040
- So there's civil wars
nonstop. Almost all were,

881
00:57:37,270 --> 00:57:41,390
of these emperors were generals,
and almost all were murdered by their men.

882
00:57:42,670 --> 00:57:48,730
So civil war was the norm, hyperinflation,
economic crash, plus there's a plague-

883
00:57:48,870 --> 00:57:55,870
... from 249 to 262 AD, which is a
pandemic, possibly smallpox or Ebola. It

884
00:57:56,850 --> 00:58:00,707
killed up to 5,000 people a day
in Rome alone, devastating the

885
00:58:00,790 --> 00:58:05,710
tax base and army recruitment pool.
And the empire

886
00:58:07,010 --> 00:58:10,660
fractured into three pieces,
but then Emperor,

887
00:58:10,910 --> 00:58:15,550
Aurelian miraculously reconquered
them in a period of five years.

888
00:58:16,370 --> 00:58:20,787
So just a lot of chaos. It deserves
the name, the Crisis of the Third Century.

889
00:58:20,870 --> 00:58:22,676
- Yeah, it's a perfect storm.
Yeah, I mean,

890
00:58:22,759 --> 00:58:24,547
you have a crisis of imperial legitimacy.

891
00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:29,390
Basically, the army's proclaiming
emperors left and right. In an odd sense,

892
00:58:30,220 --> 00:58:33,490
ironically, this is in part
because there are now a lot more

893
00:58:33,590 --> 00:58:35,379
stakeholders in the Roman
tradition, right?

894
00:58:35,462 --> 00:58:37,207
There's all of these provincial armies,

895
00:58:37,290 --> 00:58:40,630
and they're appointing
their generals as rival emperors.

896
00:58:41,490 --> 00:58:46,850
But you also have a serious
uptick in foreign invasions.

897
00:58:47,430 --> 00:58:51,107
In the north, you have the creation
of the Sasanian Persian or

898
00:58:51,190 --> 00:58:54,350
Iranian Empire in the east,
and this was very, very bellicose.

899
00:58:55,410 --> 00:58:59,390
So lots of foreign defeats.
Armies are defeated by

900
00:58:59,730 --> 00:59:03,307
you know, like, quote, "barbarian
enemies." You have eventually

901
00:59:03,390 --> 00:59:09,607
inflation, and you have plague. And so
under the pressure, right, of all of those

902
00:59:09,690 --> 00:59:14,747
forces, it almost fell apart.
Now, it didn't actually.

903
00:59:14,830 --> 00:59:18,480
Inevitably, there are also historians
who downplay the crisis. Of course,

904
00:59:18,610 --> 00:59:22,387
right, like, and legitimately so, right?
We must push back against every of these

905
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:25,607
characterizations.
- 26 emperors died, bro. What do you-

906
00:59:25,690 --> 00:59:29,597
- That's just the emperors.
That's just the emperors. We should be

907
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,867
- I'm sorry. In 50 years. - Yeah.

908
00:59:31,950 --> 00:59:33,600
- Every other year, emperor dead.

909
00:59:33,770 --> 00:59:34,907
- Yeah, that's- - Civil war

910
00:59:34,990 --> 00:59:39,097
-... that's political instability at the
top, right? But what- - Right, that's not-

911
00:59:39,180 --> 00:59:40,807
-... what are the l-
the lives of most people?

912
00:59:40,890 --> 00:59:40,930
- Sure.

913
00:59:40,910 --> 00:59:44,660
- So if you go to Egypt, for example,
which is kind of out of the... Right?

914
00:59:45,210 --> 00:59:47,124
What's going on there?
How are people living there?

915
00:59:47,208 --> 00:59:49,007
And we can see how
people are living in Egypt

916
00:59:49,090 --> 00:59:51,840
because we have all these
papyrus documents from Egypt.

917
00:59:52,650 --> 00:59:53,317
- That's true.

918
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,187
- And for the most part, they don't
seem to be experiencing a crisis.

919
00:59:56,270 --> 00:59:59,687
- I mean, this is something you talk
about. Constantine, as we'll get to him,

920
00:59:59,770 --> 01:00:03,527
is one of the most murderous
leaders in all of human

921
01:00:03,610 --> 01:00:07,567
history, if you consider
his own family. But

922
01:00:07,650 --> 01:00:13,667
if you're living in the provinces,
you know, there's... He's not-

923
01:00:13,750 --> 01:00:15,207
- Oh, yeah, yeah. -...
he's not that murderous.

924
01:00:15,290 --> 01:00:16,647
- No, no, no,
he's perfectly fine. Yeah, yeah.

925
01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:20,391
- So it's very important to actually
remember about what the actual experience

926
01:00:20,474 --> 01:00:20,547
of

927
01:00:20,630 --> 01:00:27,630
the average citizen of the empire is like.
Fair. Okay, so but how... Maybe there's

928
01:00:27,850 --> 01:00:31,667
more we could say about the crisis.
And then of course, the, the

929
01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:35,687
crisis is in part
resolved by Diocletian as

930
01:00:35,770 --> 01:00:38,787
he does a hard reset on the
structure on the Roman system of

931
01:00:38,870 --> 01:00:42,527
government. So maybe you could speak
a little bit more to the crisis that's

932
01:00:42,610 --> 01:00:48,010
important for us to understand, and how
Diocletian solves the crisis in 284 AD.

933
01:00:48,710 --> 01:00:52,410
- Right. So again, these are
processes rather than specific events.

934
01:00:52,530 --> 01:00:53,027
- Sure.

935
01:00:53,110 --> 01:00:56,950
- So for example, you mentioned that
the empire kind of breaks into pieces.

936
01:00:57,170 --> 01:01:01,550
- Yes. - And we have what's called
sometime the Empire of the Gauls.

937
01:01:02,170 --> 01:01:06,030
Gaul are modern France and sort
of Britain, for a while are, for

938
01:01:06,290 --> 01:01:09,737
a decade and a half or so,
are kind of like this little separatist-

939
01:01:09,820 --> 01:01:13,707
empire. So what's interesting
about that is that this was

940
01:01:13,790 --> 01:01:17,727
not an attempt to break away
from the empire. In other words,

941
01:01:17,810 --> 01:01:21,447
it's not some discontent provincials
who are just tired of Roman

942
01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:25,390
rule and wanna break away
and do their own thing. No.

943
01:01:26,650 --> 01:01:29,990
This is actually just a,
it's an attempt by,

944
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,187
provincial generals to take the throne,
and do so to rule the entire

945
01:01:34,270 --> 01:01:38,460
empire. It doesn't work. They get only
as far as the provinces that they take.

946
01:01:38,930 --> 01:01:42,970
And the only way that they know to set
up a state is to make it a Roman state.

947
01:01:43,290 --> 01:01:47,170
Right? Like, that's the total of their
political imaginary is like, "Well,

948
01:01:47,390 --> 01:01:49,390
we're just gonna do a Roman thing here."

949
01:01:50,180 --> 01:01:53,837
And maybe we'll get,
you know, we'll reunite the

950
01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,837
empire ourselves, or as happened,
Aurelian, that is someone from the other

951
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,840
side, will reunite the empire. But it's
always a Roman model. Like, there's,

952
01:02:01,940 --> 01:02:06,180
it's almost like there's no alternatives
by this point. So that's interesting.

953
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:09,840
What Diocletian does essentially is,

954
01:02:11,500 --> 01:02:15,257
The, the way I characterize
it sometimes is that he

955
01:02:15,340 --> 01:02:17,340
turns the problem into its own solution.

956
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:21,580
In other words, the problem is too
many emperors or wanna-be emperors.

957
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,420
Because there's just more going on. Like,
one emperor can't deal with all these

958
01:02:25,503 --> 01:02:28,603
problems along the frontiers,
with all the political problems.

959
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:33,377
So what he does is he deputizes some
of his colleagues, people he was on

960
01:02:33,460 --> 01:02:36,740
very good terms with from the army.
These are all Illyrians. They're from...

961
01:02:36,823 --> 01:02:37,637
By the way,

962
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:41,077
for a few centuries, the emperors
are all from this region of the former

963
01:02:41,160 --> 01:02:44,757
Yugoslavia that's the size of Scotland.
Like, that's where they all come from.

964
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:46,957
- Well, what explains that?
- Uh, the army.

965
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,960
- Ah. - These are military men.
Sometimes hard-drinking military men.

966
01:02:51,180 --> 01:02:54,957
Very good at their job like Aurelian, you
mentioned, right? So there's a series of

967
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,617
Illyrian emperors who

968
01:02:58,700 --> 01:03:02,477
restore stability. And the reason
why there's so many Illyrian

969
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:06,537
emperors is because they worked their way
up through the ranks of the army. And,

970
01:03:06,620 --> 01:03:10,780
you know, the regions of Yugoslavia in,
at that time are sufficiently,

971
01:03:11,620 --> 01:03:15,740
you know, economically underdeveloped
that there's a strong incentive for,

972
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:21,250
for young men to go join the army
because, you know, it's a living.

973
01:03:21,460 --> 01:03:25,137
Um, and so Illyrians become,
like, kind of the backbone of the

974
01:03:25,220 --> 01:03:29,177
Roman army, and they're described as
these, you know, tough Roman conservative

975
01:03:29,260 --> 01:03:32,977
types. I mean, these are,
you know, these are, these are tough

976
01:03:33,060 --> 01:03:36,997
military guys. I say that to
draw a contrast between, say,

977
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:39,127
Hadrian, whom I mentioned earlier-

978
01:03:39,210 --> 01:03:42,920
... you know, who was a much
more sophisticated, artsy, poetic,

979
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:44,857
cosmopolitan emperor. - Sure.

980
01:03:44,940 --> 01:03:48,520
- Also a hard-ass. You did not
wanna mess with Hadrian. But,

981
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,958
These guys from the third century
are military men through and through.

982
01:03:52,041 --> 01:03:57,537
Like, their whole careers are in the army.
And they have, like, the military stubble.

983
01:03:57,620 --> 01:03:59,577
They've got these thick necks.

984
01:03:59,660 --> 01:04:03,077
They look angry. They've got their hands
on their swords. Like, they're not

985
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:04,667
projecting an image of sort of- - Yeah.

986
01:04:04,750 --> 01:04:08,220
-... calm and sophisticated,
you know, bum-bum, you know.

987
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,347
- So, military men. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

988
01:04:10,430 --> 01:04:11,057
-... military men from Aurelian.

989
01:04:11,140 --> 01:04:14,957
- Yep. So Diocletian gets a gang of them
together. They, eventually there are

990
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:22,040
four. We call this the Tetrarchy. Um, and
he basically allocates them to various,

991
01:04:22,620 --> 01:04:26,170
um... This wasn't any kind
of hard division of the empire.

992
01:04:26,260 --> 01:04:31,520
Basically, it was a collaborative project.
They each went wherever they were needed.

993
01:04:31,780 --> 01:04:35,580
- Uh, was it, is it fair to say that
there was four administrative zones?

994
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,217
He allocated each one to a zone?

995
01:04:38,300 --> 01:04:40,420
- Broadly. I'd say more military zones.

996
01:04:40,780 --> 01:04:40,957
- Okay.

997
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,917
- Um, so the administration tends to
operate, it kind of humming along in the

998
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,640
background wherever these emperors
happen to be, right? This is a,

999
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:53,077
We're talking about a period of big
government now. So Diocletian creates a

1000
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:56,414
larger government, possibly a larger
army, and in order to pay for that,

1001
01:04:56,497 --> 01:04:58,747
you need more systematic
and effective taxation- - Mm-hmm.

1002
01:04:58,830 --> 01:05:01,383
-... which means you need more
census, you need more bureaucracy,

1003
01:05:01,467 --> 01:05:05,697
you need more collect... You know?
So it is an era of bigger government.

1004
01:05:05,780 --> 01:05:07,367
- So just to linger on that point- - Yeah.

1005
01:05:07,450 --> 01:05:10,505
-... is it fair to say that Diocletian
created the deep state? Quote,

1006
01:05:10,589 --> 01:05:14,390
"deep state." So the tax
collectors, the, the logistics,

1007
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:18,711
the thing that you've kinda hinted at,
which is the separation of the civil

1008
01:05:18,795 --> 01:05:21,580
and the military layer of society.

1009
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,940
- So the concept of a deep state,
I've had discussions about that

1010
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,817
with experts who work on the idea
of the deep state, and I'm

1011
01:05:29,900 --> 01:05:33,697
not sure that I would
characterize the Roman Empire that

1012
01:05:33,780 --> 01:05:37,637
way, in part because while you do have big
government, you do have bureaucracy, you

1013
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:41,577
have, you have bureaucrats who are
buried in various echelons, and you

1014
01:05:41,660 --> 01:05:44,837
know, nobody knows exactly what
they're doing and things like that,

1015
01:05:44,920 --> 01:05:48,730
you know, I have not come
across the idea of some sort of

1016
01:05:48,820 --> 01:05:53,859
sinister elements, you know,
who are working within the administrative

1017
01:05:53,942 --> 01:05:57,620
apparatus to undermine the emperor.

1018
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:02,307
Like, from a distance occasionally, you
might get glimpses of this kind of thing.

1019
01:06:02,390 --> 01:06:05,348
Diocletian, for example, once complained
that, "Nobody ever tells me anything."

1020
01:06:05,431 --> 01:06:07,332
In other words, like, he's so removed-

1021
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:11,360
... in part from the realities
of what's going on on the ground that he,

1022
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:17,737
felt sometimes he'd lost touch.
But I don't find this kind of idea of of

1023
01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:21,080
undermining imperial power
from within the bureaucracy.

1024
01:06:21,240 --> 01:06:25,157
- Yeah, I think the, one of the ways
to explain that is because, so, you

1025
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:26,440
know, in the modern day,

1026
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:32,407
democracy in quotes, there's a kind of
temporary nature to the leader at the top.

1027
01:06:32,490 --> 01:06:34,997
So it's incentivized
the deep state to form.

1028
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:38,037
That, so the deep state thinks
of themselves as a thing that

1029
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,837
propagates long-term
periods of time, and then the

1030
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,470
leader is a very ephemeral
short, short-term thing.

1031
01:06:45,180 --> 01:06:46,987
- Yeah. - With a,
with an emperor, technically-

1032
01:06:47,070 --> 01:06:50,980
... you can go for a long time,
so it's best to be integrated deeply.

1033
01:06:51,500 --> 01:06:55,400
With, the bureaucracy should be integrated
with the leader. It makes sense.

1034
01:06:55,700 --> 01:06:56,967
- Yeah. But also, - Fair enough

1035
01:06:57,050 --> 01:07:03,277
-... also in, in, in modern social thought
or, or fear is that the deep state might

1036
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,480
be undermining, say... - Undermining, yeah

1037
01:07:05,580 --> 01:07:08,408
-... the democracy itself rather
than, right, rather than...

1038
01:07:08,491 --> 01:07:13,460
It can cut both ways. - But there is a
bureaucracy. There is a big government.

1039
01:07:13,580 --> 01:07:15,537
- Absolutely. Yeah.
- There's a big machinery.

1040
01:07:15,620 --> 01:07:17,767
- Yeah, compared to before. - Before.

1041
01:07:17,850 --> 01:07:18,683
- Yes.

1042
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:21,349
So Diocletian creates these
larger bureaucratic structures,

1043
01:07:21,432 --> 01:07:22,817
and these are the ones that define

1044
01:07:22,900 --> 01:07:26,817
the society that I study.
So as a specialist, I focus on

1045
01:07:26,900 --> 01:07:29,050
the period after him mostly.

1046
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,080
But he implemented those
to solve a lot of these problems.

1047
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:37,397
He was mostly successful.
So in terms of generating revenue from

1048
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:43,477
a much more troubled and kind of
precarious situation in sustaining large

1049
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:50,560
armies and putting down these
rebellions and usurpations. And he was

1050
01:07:50,820 --> 01:07:52,570
generally successful at doing that.

1051
01:07:53,220 --> 01:07:59,140
So he created the model that they kept for
the next, Well, three centuries or more.

1052
01:08:00,330 --> 01:08:04,670
- But a lot of the elements of that
model lasted even beyond that, right?

1053
01:08:04,830 --> 01:08:08,590
- Yeah, like universal taxation.
I'll give you an example. Up until then,

1054
01:08:09,590 --> 01:08:12,367
Italy was exempt from taxes.
Italy was the land of the conquerors.

1055
01:08:12,450 --> 01:08:13,447
The conquerors don't pay

1056
01:08:13,530 --> 01:08:17,080
taxes to themselves. The conquerors
live off the taxes that others pay,

1057
01:08:17,490 --> 01:08:21,330
right? So Italy was this
big tax haven, right?

1058
01:08:22,150 --> 01:08:25,610
Diocletian, Galerius, you know,
his guys, these guys are from

1059
01:08:25,850 --> 01:08:27,547
Illyria. They're from the Balkans.

1060
01:08:27,630 --> 01:08:31,680
Like why is Italy tax-free exactly, you
know? That doesn't make any sense. It's a

1061
01:08:31,790 --> 01:08:35,567
very, very wealthy, prosperous
part of the world, and so, no, they

1062
01:08:35,650 --> 01:08:39,537
tax Italy. So now, like, not only do
all Romans have the same citizenship and

1063
01:08:39,620 --> 01:08:42,910
the same law, they all
have the same tax system,

1064
01:08:43,530 --> 01:08:47,487
and the Diocletianic tax code, as it
were, it's not a code, it sounds like

1065
01:08:47,570 --> 01:08:50,650
a flat tax, which
for us sounds regressive.

1066
01:08:51,410 --> 01:08:54,987
But by those stand- by the standards
of that time, it's actually kind of

1067
01:08:55,070 --> 01:08:57,047
progressive in a way. - Right.

1068
01:08:57,130 --> 01:08:58,197
- It means that, like, even- - Right.

1069
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,950
-... elites paid, like,
the same, right? Yeah.

1070
01:09:01,990 --> 01:09:05,927
- So how much of all of this,
everything we'll talk about in the, in

1071
01:09:06,010 --> 01:09:08,210
the coming centuries
is all about taxation?

1072
01:09:08,650 --> 01:09:11,100
- I think it's huge.
Taxation is the heart of it.

1073
01:09:12,390 --> 01:09:16,660
- So I mean, the functioning,
the success, the flourishing of a society,

1074
01:09:17,530 --> 01:09:20,475
the way the government works,
the way the people are represented,

1075
01:09:20,558 --> 01:09:21,437
all of it has to do,

1076
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,170
all the civil wars and everything,
it feels like taxation is at the core.

1077
01:09:25,290 --> 01:09:30,050
- Yes. Yeah. If you asked me to put
my finger on one factor, it would be that.

1078
01:09:30,590 --> 01:09:34,507
- So the taxation system,
that feels like the early

1079
01:09:34,590 --> 01:09:36,927
framework for the East Roman Empire.

1080
01:09:37,010 --> 01:09:40,890
- It did create a more sort
of homogeneous framework, for sure.

1081
01:09:40,990 --> 01:09:44,367
By the end of the third century,
it's pretty much in place. What

1082
01:09:44,450 --> 01:09:47,790
Diocletian does is a universal census,

1083
01:09:48,490 --> 01:09:51,680
and this is continued
by his successors. So every

1084
01:09:52,390 --> 01:09:58,550
taxable asset in the empire is censused.
And so you can now start to have a budget.

1085
01:09:59,390 --> 01:10:02,690
- Now, there is some element,
and then you push back against that,

1086
01:10:03,310 --> 01:10:09,894
some element of Diocletian where he
legally limited social and class mobility

1087
01:10:09,977 --> 01:10:14,047
in part for the taxation
system, and made it, in many

1088
01:10:14,130 --> 01:10:17,827
cases, illegal to move
and illegal to quit your job. For

1089
01:10:17,910 --> 01:10:21,707
example, as I read to guarantee the food

1090
01:10:21,790 --> 01:10:25,567
supply and land tax, farmers
were legally forbidden from

1091
01:10:25,650 --> 01:10:29,387
moving away from the land they worked,
so the state always knew who to

1092
01:10:29,470 --> 01:10:32,827
tax. And then for soldiers,
sons of veterans were

1093
01:10:32,910 --> 01:10:37,630
legally obligated to serve
in the army to maintain troop numbers.

1094
01:10:38,570 --> 01:10:42,050
You argue that these were tax enforcement

1095
01:10:42,170 --> 01:10:46,027
mechanisms, not a rigid caste
system, and so in practice, the

1096
01:10:46,110 --> 01:10:49,230
empire remained a society
of high mobility.

1097
01:10:50,030 --> 01:10:51,747
- This is a complicated matter.

1098
01:10:51,830 --> 01:10:55,787
So let's talk, for example,
about soldiers. It's probably

1099
01:10:55,870 --> 01:11:02,787
the case that most soldiers' sons were
expected to succeed them. Like most

1100
01:11:02,870 --> 01:11:06,447
professions where you have
an apprenticeship, the son will usually

1101
01:11:06,530 --> 01:11:09,910
succeed, right?
There are a number of other

1102
01:11:10,070 --> 01:11:15,130
professions that were kind of guild-like
in nature like for example, shipping.

1103
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:21,027
Uh, where there were considerable
assets involved in order to

1104
01:11:21,110 --> 01:11:25,030
secure contracts for insurance
purposes for the ships and so forth,

1105
01:11:25,230 --> 01:11:28,684
and it made sense for those assets to be,
you know, passed from father to son.

1106
01:11:28,767 --> 01:11:32,847
In other words, and with them
comes the obligation to

1107
01:11:32,930 --> 01:11:39,930
continue in that line of work. Some
of these things are inherently, sort of

1108
01:11:40,100 --> 01:11:43,930
hereditary, and I don't think most
people would have objected to it.

1109
01:11:44,690 --> 01:11:48,030
The farmers is probably the only case

1110
01:11:48,270 --> 01:11:52,207
where it might have actually
involved some coercion. There was

1111
01:11:52,290 --> 01:11:55,930
a category of farmers, and we don't
know how many of them, who were,

1112
01:11:56,850 --> 01:11:59,190
for fiscal purposes, bound to the land.

1113
01:12:00,090 --> 01:12:02,203
This doesn't mean they couldn't
leave the land, like physically.

1114
01:12:02,286 --> 01:12:03,567
No one's preventing them from leaving.

1115
01:12:03,650 --> 01:12:07,347
But they were fiscally responsible
for providing the taxes or rents or

1116
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:11,147
whatever because the state
wanted to have a secure

1117
01:12:11,230 --> 01:12:15,127
revenue stream from, say, those lands.
And if... Anyway, it's, it's one of these

1118
01:12:15,210 --> 01:12:19,087
complicated situations.
This did create some limitations on,

1119
01:12:19,170 --> 01:12:22,890
on those people. And it's
a topic of current research,

1120
01:12:23,490 --> 01:12:25,190
these bound farmers, as it were,

1121
01:12:25,990 --> 01:12:29,267
who are tied to the land. It's more
of a... You know, someone put it that,

1122
01:12:29,350 --> 01:12:33,167
you know, most of the time it's
people who own the land, and in

1123
01:12:33,250 --> 01:12:35,900
this arrangement,
it's the land that owns the people.

1124
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,667
- But you're saying the bigger picture
thing is that there was mobility.

1125
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:40,277
- Oh, there's considerable mobility.

1126
01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:42,337
- So, so class mobility-...
and physical mobility-

1127
01:12:42,420 --> 01:12:46,120
... meaning people moved a... And we'll
see this as from the West into the

1128
01:12:46,210 --> 01:12:48,157
East and Constantinople
and all this kind of stuff.

1129
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:50,410
- Oh, yeah. There's tons of mobility.

1130
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:53,630
No, no, this is not a society
where people are bound really,

1131
01:12:54,390 --> 01:12:58,190
to... We, like, we don't find
anybody who's, who's like, "Ah, I

1132
01:12:59,370 --> 01:13:02,153
I really don't want to be a soldier.
But my father was a soldier,

1133
01:13:02,236 --> 01:13:03,207
and I'm obligated to be

1134
01:13:03,290 --> 01:13:06,367
one." Like-... like, we just don't
hear those kinds of complaints-

1135
01:13:06,450 --> 01:13:09,217
of people who don't want to be a so-
Why wouldn't you want to be a soldier in

1136
01:13:09,301 --> 01:13:11,307
the Roman Empire? I mean,
it's got tremendous perks.

1137
01:13:11,390 --> 01:13:16,330
- Right. Right. So can we just linger
on the why is it that Diocletian

1138
01:13:17,150 --> 01:13:20,987
was able to stabilize
the empire? It's like, you

1139
01:13:21,070 --> 01:13:24,109
know, the crisis of the third century
really threatened to tear apart

1140
01:13:24,192 --> 01:13:25,026
everything.

1141
01:13:25,510 --> 01:13:29,950
So why did some of these things
that we talked about stabilize?

1142
01:13:30,270 --> 01:13:33,320
- Well, Aurelian had already
united the empire territorially.

1143
01:13:33,490 --> 01:13:35,240
So this is right before Diocletian.

1144
01:13:36,110 --> 01:13:39,587
And what Diocletian did
was put in place a system that

1145
01:13:39,670 --> 01:13:43,527
reduced the number of rebellions.
Simply by having four big guys with

1146
01:13:43,610 --> 01:13:47,800
four armies, they managed to put out
all of those fires, or most of them.

1147
01:13:48,690 --> 01:13:52,527
And once you have stability,
and he also beat the Persians, I

1148
01:13:52,610 --> 01:13:56,007
mean, Galerius did so
starting to beat back foreign

1149
01:13:56,090 --> 01:14:01,690
invasions, that creates a framework
for economic stability. People need

1150
01:14:02,540 --> 01:14:06,300
To, you know, if they're going
to invest in, like, land reclamation

1151
01:14:06,400 --> 01:14:10,217
or expand production,
they need to know that, you know,

1152
01:14:10,300 --> 01:14:13,054
foreigners aren't gonna come rampaging
through, marauding through the,

1153
01:14:13,137 --> 01:14:14,077
you know, stealing their

1154
01:14:14,160 --> 01:14:17,717
cattle and, you know, enslaving
them and taking them off to work on

1155
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,887
agricultural farms in Mesopotamia.
Like, they need to know this.

1156
01:14:20,970 --> 01:14:24,377
And if you provide that context
of stability, the economic growth, the

1157
01:14:24,460 --> 01:14:29,061
demographic growth will return.
And Diocletian created that kind of,

1158
01:14:29,144 --> 01:14:30,040
that context.

1159
01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:35,237
- So that takes us to Constantine but
first a quick bathroom break, if I can.

1160
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:36,153
- Sure.

1161
01:14:36,360 --> 01:14:38,269
- Quick ten-second thank
you to our sponsors.

1162
01:14:38,352 --> 01:14:40,317
Check them out in the
description. It really

1163
01:14:40,400 --> 01:14:42,767
is the best way to support
this podcast. Go to

1164
01:14:42,850 --> 01:14:46,560
lexfridman.com/sponsors.
And now, dear friends,

1165
01:14:47,100 --> 01:14:51,020
back to our conversation
about the Eastern Roman Empire.

1166
01:14:52,220 --> 01:14:55,860
All right, we're back,
and let's talk about Constantine

1167
01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,057
and Constantinople. Let's go
to the rise of the East Roman

1168
01:15:00,140 --> 01:15:03,957
Empire. Who was Constantine?
Tell me about his rise

1169
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:08,400
to power and the founding
of Constantinople in 330 AD.

1170
01:15:08,700 --> 01:15:12,540
- Sure. So Constantine was the son
of one of Diocletian's colleagues,

1171
01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:14,710
so he comes from within the system.

1172
01:15:15,700 --> 01:15:19,540
And the system was actually designed
to be non-hereditary. In other words,

1173
01:15:20,420 --> 01:15:24,197
the senior emperors would retire, the
junior ones would move up to the senior

1174
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:27,160
position, and then they
would recruit two new ones.

1175
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:31,400
And they tried to skip
the dynastic element. So,

1176
01:15:31,660 --> 01:15:35,360
so it would be kind of, let's
just say, kinda meritocratic, not

1177
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:39,370
whose son, you know, you were.
Constantine was a son. He was passed over,

1178
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,970
but the armies liked him.
He was actually quite competent.

1179
01:15:43,180 --> 01:15:47,037
And so there's a series
of civil wars among all of these

1180
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:50,670
successors of Diocletian,
and Constantine emerges as the winner.

1181
01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:53,891
There are periods when there are
quite a few of them. There are, like,

1182
01:15:53,974 --> 01:15:59,200
six at a time, but they gra- they
gradually dwindle down to one. So

1183
01:15:59,540 --> 01:16:02,391
yeah, it's as long as you have
the quarterfinals, semifinals,

1184
01:16:02,474 --> 01:16:06,740
and then the final war,
and Constantine emerges in 324 as the sole

1185
01:16:07,120 --> 01:16:11,090
ruler of the entire Roman Empire.
So that's who he is. He's

1186
01:16:11,360 --> 01:16:14,700
definitely an insider,
very, very competent

1187
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:19,300
general at civil war.
And he gradually moves eastward.

1188
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,737
So as he's conquering
his rivals, who are often

1189
01:16:23,820 --> 01:16:27,157
his father-in-laws or his brother-in-laws,
because these people are all

1190
01:16:27,240 --> 01:16:30,277
intermarried, and they have alliances, and
they fall out. It's one of those kinds of

1191
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:34,297
situations. He moves eastward,
and by the time he defeats his

1192
01:16:34,380 --> 01:16:41,380
last rival, this uh, an emperor called
Licinius, in 324 he's in the East. And

1193
01:16:42,180 --> 01:16:45,680
Licinius had his headquarters
or one of his headquarters at

1194
01:16:45,980 --> 01:16:49,280
this town called Byzantium. Byzantium is a

1195
01:16:49,820 --> 01:16:53,060
city right where
Constantinople was founded.

1196
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:58,280
And it is at exactly the point where
Europe meets Asia, so on the Bosporus.

1197
01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:01,614
And it's a very strategic location.
It always had been, right?

1198
01:17:01,697 --> 01:17:03,057
So whoever controls the straits of

1199
01:17:03,140 --> 01:17:06,490
the Bosporus, yeah, we don't need
to explain how important that is.

1200
01:17:07,180 --> 01:17:10,880
And Constantine decides to create
a city named after himself,

1201
01:17:11,020 --> 01:17:14,857
Constantinople, on that spot,
Byzantium. So Byzantium

1202
01:17:14,940 --> 01:17:19,700
essentially ceases to exist as a city
and is replaced by Constantinople,

1203
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:24,120
AKA New Rome. So it's pretty clear
that right from the beginning,

1204
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:28,077
Constantine intended
this to be a kind of branch

1205
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:32,200
office of Rome in the East,
a kind of copy and paste of Rome

1206
01:17:33,260 --> 01:17:37,960
in the East, and it's a plan that his
successors continued, right? Now,

1207
01:17:39,860 --> 01:17:43,720
there are a number
of other cities in this,

1208
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:46,400
Let's say in the generation
or two before this,

1209
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,180
that were also treated as sort
of quasi-Romes. Basically,

1210
01:17:51,540 --> 01:17:53,740
there was this historian in the
third century who said, "Well,

1211
01:17:53,823 --> 01:17:58,627
wherever the emperor is, that's Rome,"
right? 'Cause emperors are now itinerant.

1212
01:17:58,710 --> 01:18:02,317
They're no longer staying at Rome.
They're mostly on the frontier, and

1213
01:18:02,400 --> 01:18:04,197
Constantine is one
of these frontier emperors.

1214
01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:06,077
They will sometimes
visit Rome, maybe once or

1215
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:09,260
twice, maybe once a decade,
you know, something like this.

1216
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:13,997
So Rome becomes something
that can be sort of copied

1217
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:17,617
and pasted in other parts of the empire,
and a bunch of other cities get

1218
01:18:17,700 --> 01:18:21,237
called, you know, a New
Rome, an Other Rome, an

1219
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:25,217
Alternative Rome, My Rome.
And Constantinople

1220
01:18:25,300 --> 01:18:28,020
is the last and most successful of those.

1221
01:18:28,740 --> 01:18:31,735
- So maybe can you speak geographically
the importance of Constantinople?

1222
01:18:31,819 --> 01:18:34,200
It's an interesting place 'cause it-

1223
01:18:35,580 --> 01:18:39,497
... when you're talking about a land
so large as the West and the East, with

1224
01:18:39,580 --> 01:18:43,400
enemies, with threats from all
kinds of different directions, the

1225
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:46,740
location where the emperor
sits is important.

1226
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:48,380
- Very. So look at Rome,

1227
01:18:49,580 --> 01:18:51,019
right? So it's right
in the middle of Italy,

1228
01:18:51,102 --> 01:18:53,117
right in the middle of the Mediterranean.

1229
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:56,640
Very safe location in a way,
but it's very far from the frontiers.

1230
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:01,357
And this is a period when emperors
need to be with the armies, right?

1231
01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:05,077
They're not senatorial emperors who
are sitting in Rome having meetings with

1232
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:10,420
senators. They are military emperors
who are marching along the frontiers,

1233
01:19:11,260 --> 01:19:14,820
mostly with generals rather
than civilian administration.

1234
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:19,080
So they're doing their job.
Like, this is the hard

1235
01:19:19,220 --> 01:19:24,667
work. They're slogging through
the mud of winter campaigns, right?

1236
01:19:24,750 --> 01:19:28,600
Uh, they're not just sitting in a palace
enjoying themselves when they could.

1237
01:19:28,940 --> 01:19:32,837
But Rome just becomes inconvenient
because of that. And if you

1238
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:35,680
look at Constantinople, it is

1239
01:19:36,660 --> 01:19:41,980
kind of halfway between the Danube
frontier and the Euphrates frontier.

1240
01:19:42,820 --> 01:19:46,697
So if you want to prioritize the East
or treat it as an equal part of

1241
01:19:46,780 --> 01:19:49,490
the Roman Empire, as these
emperors all did. In fact,

1242
01:19:50,440 --> 01:19:54,237
almost all emperors who had a choice
about whether they would stay in the East

1243
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:58,117
or stay in the West chose the East.
There's only one who

1244
01:19:58,200 --> 01:20:01,267
chooses the West, and that's
Valentinian later in the fourth century.

1245
01:20:01,351 --> 01:20:04,201
All the others understand
that the East is where it's at.

1246
01:20:04,990 --> 01:20:07,486
And Constantinople is right between
the Danube and the Euphrates.

1247
01:20:07,569 --> 01:20:09,069
These are two major frontiers.

1248
01:20:09,370 --> 01:20:12,130
And so it allows emperors
to move between the two.

1249
01:20:13,090 --> 01:20:16,827
And also look at its location north,
south, east, west, right? So

1250
01:20:16,910 --> 01:20:21,490
north, south, it is the node between
the Black Sea and the Mediterranean,

1251
01:20:22,310 --> 01:20:26,210
right? And east, west,
it's precisely where Europe meets Asia,

1252
01:20:26,870 --> 01:20:30,807
right? And because there's a break
there, so there's a Bosporus, the

1253
01:20:30,890 --> 01:20:34,470
Sea of Marmara, the Hellespont,
the Roman Empire during the civil

1254
01:20:34,570 --> 01:20:37,700
wars, it would tend to break there.

1255
01:20:38,010 --> 01:20:39,930
And you would have one
emperor on one side in Asia,

1256
01:20:40,014 --> 01:20:41,807
and you would have another
emperor on the other

1257
01:20:41,890 --> 01:20:45,527
side. And this just kept happening. And

1258
01:20:45,610 --> 01:20:52,124
Constantinople ultimately functions
as a kind of clamp that unifies this whole

1259
01:20:52,207 --> 01:20:53,040
area,

1260
01:20:53,170 --> 01:21:00,170
so basically the Balkans and Asia
Minor and Syria as a kind of unit,

1261
01:21:00,970 --> 01:21:04,827
right? And, you know,
what is a new Rome? A new

1262
01:21:04,910 --> 01:21:11,727
Rome is, among other things, a new senate,
right? And Constantine and his successors

1263
01:21:11,810 --> 01:21:14,967
recruit this new senate for the new

1264
01:21:15,050 --> 01:21:18,890
Rome. So we're talking about maybe
two and a half thousand, 3,000

1265
01:21:19,110 --> 01:21:22,647
men, you know, at, at,
at its peak, and these are all

1266
01:21:22,730 --> 01:21:25,980
recruited from all of these areas.
You know, some come from Rome,

1267
01:21:26,370 --> 01:21:29,970
but others come from the Aegean
region, from Asia Minor,

1268
01:21:30,690 --> 01:21:33,790
Eastern Mediterranean.
So these are the wealthiest people,

1269
01:21:34,210 --> 01:21:37,810
usually most well-connected elites
from the whole Eastern Mediterranean,

1270
01:21:38,270 --> 01:21:42,710
and they come together and form a new
purpose, common purpose in Constantinople.

1271
01:21:43,510 --> 01:21:45,510
And the empire never breaks there again.

1272
01:21:46,110 --> 01:21:49,767
Right? So it, it holds together
this part of the world. The

1273
01:21:49,850 --> 01:21:52,700
breaking point now, interestingly,
moves to the Adriatic,

1274
01:21:53,570 --> 01:21:57,667
right? So when, in 395, we talked
about East and West kind of splitting.

1275
01:21:57,750 --> 01:22:01,387
It breaks at the Adriatic 'cause
Constantinople is now holding that whole

1276
01:22:01,470 --> 01:22:05,187
Eastern world together. 'Cause all
of these elites, they now, they're

1277
01:22:05,270 --> 01:22:07,353
invested in it.
They're literally investing in it.

1278
01:22:07,437 --> 01:22:10,837
They have to invest in it in order
to be senators in Constantinople.

1279
01:22:11,310 --> 01:22:13,653
So that's kind of one of the functions
that it, that it performs,

1280
01:22:13,736 --> 01:22:14,786
a strategic function.

1281
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:19,347
There's a political function. There's also
a cultural one, but you know, we can talk

1282
01:22:19,430 --> 01:22:23,227
about that, too. But that's what you see
there on that map, the northwest, east,

1283
01:22:23,310 --> 01:22:24,143
south.

1284
01:22:24,410 --> 01:22:28,287
- So just to linger on it,
so you do a podcast,

1285
01:22:28,370 --> 01:22:33,550
Byzantium and Friends, but you're also
a guest on podcasts, and I should mention

1286
01:22:34,670 --> 01:22:38,247
you being a guest multiple
times on the excellent The

1287
01:22:38,330 --> 01:22:42,247
History of Byzantium podcast
hosted by Robin Pierson. I

1288
01:22:42,330 --> 01:22:44,817
highly recommend people listen to it,
to all of your appearances.

1289
01:22:44,901 --> 01:22:45,847
You have a lot of really

1290
01:22:45,930 --> 01:22:49,730
fascinating ones. But the reason I
bring all that up is one of the episodes,

1291
01:22:50,270 --> 01:22:57,270
you do the fun thing of selecting
the top 10 emperors of Byzantium, and

1292
01:22:58,110 --> 01:23:01,967
spoiler alert, everybody should go
listen to the full list 'cause you

1293
01:23:02,050 --> 01:23:08,722
justify all the different options.
But Constantine ends up in the number one

1294
01:23:08,806 --> 01:23:13,167
spot. And so can you just add
a little bit more depth why he

1295
01:23:13,250 --> 01:23:17,150
would be in your number one spot- - Yes
-... now that we're talking about him?

1296
01:23:17,410 --> 01:23:21,170
- Yes. It's not because I sort
of like him as a person, right? I mean-

1297
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:23,770
... as you said, he was pretty murderous.

1298
01:23:23,890 --> 01:23:30,030
Right? All those wars, so clearly
ambitious, murderous, ruthless, basically.

1299
01:23:30,270 --> 01:23:34,227
- Can you actually speak to the murderous
aspect? He seemed to have murdered a

1300
01:23:34,310 --> 01:23:40,110
lot of people in his family. - Yes, that's
because what we call his family were also

1301
01:23:40,230 --> 01:23:43,770
alliances of convenience that he
made on the way to the top.

1302
01:23:44,570 --> 01:23:48,467
And when those alliances
or, you know, those, you

1303
01:23:48,550 --> 01:23:52,170
know, those wives or those fathers-in-law
were no longer convenient or,

1304
01:23:52,790 --> 01:23:56,727
or turned against him,
he had no hesitation in

1305
01:23:56,810 --> 01:24:00,667
removing them. But he's also, you know, he

1306
01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:05,287
gets a little extra bonus because he also
murdered his own son, Crispus, who was-

1307
01:24:05,370 --> 01:24:09,165
... apparently a very competent
and popular kind of general,

1308
01:24:09,248 --> 01:24:14,930
and we don't know why. He executes
Crispus soon after defeating Licinius,

1309
01:24:15,830 --> 01:24:18,607
and then follows it up
with the murder of his wife-

1310
01:24:18,690 --> 01:24:22,607
... not Crispus' mother, and we don't
know why. The funny thing is that when

1311
01:24:22,690 --> 01:24:26,467
emperors do this sort of thing,
if there's any kind of remotely, like, a

1312
01:24:26,550 --> 01:24:30,447
good reason, they'll blast it through
all of the media, right? Like, "Crispus

1313
01:24:30,530 --> 01:24:34,547
was rebelling against me,"
or whatever. There's nothing.

1314
01:24:34,630 --> 01:24:38,330
He doesn't even try to justify it,
which means it must have been something

1315
01:24:38,710 --> 01:24:41,410
unjustifiable- Like, I don't know.
I can't process it.

1316
01:24:41,630 --> 01:24:45,467
- And also, I read that the
historians of the time would

1317
01:24:45,550 --> 01:24:47,100
just ignore that that happened.

1318
01:24:47,710 --> 01:24:50,570
- Yes. Well, sort of. So

1319
01:24:51,510 --> 01:24:54,950
when Crispus is alive, it's all,
like, praising Crispus as, "Oh,

1320
01:24:55,310 --> 01:24:58,467
Constantine, you great emperor, and
your wonderful son who will..." whatever.

1321
01:24:58,550 --> 01:25:01,397
And then Crispus is executed,
and he just disappears from the, like-

1322
01:25:01,480 --> 01:25:02,307
... they never talk about him.

1323
01:25:02,390 --> 01:25:08,170
- Yeah. Actually, as another side
to a side, I think you mentioned,

1324
01:25:09,290 --> 01:25:13,247
Whether it's on your podcast
or elsewhere, that if, if you had

1325
01:25:13,330 --> 01:25:16,730
to have a beer with any of the emperors,
that you probably wouldn't.

1326
01:25:17,490 --> 01:25:21,187
So it's not like some of the
most impactful, some of the

1327
01:25:21,270 --> 01:25:24,780
most influential and great
emperors that we talk about,

1328
01:25:25,510 --> 01:25:27,810
they might not be very pleasant people.

1329
01:25:28,680 --> 01:25:31,804
- So let's set aside whether you'd
like to have a beer with these people.

1330
01:25:31,887 --> 01:25:32,547
The reason I put

1331
01:25:32,630 --> 01:25:36,087
Constantine at the top of the list is
because the decisions that he made were so

1332
01:25:36,170 --> 01:25:39,420
consequential, just important, and

1333
01:25:40,650 --> 01:25:47,650
for the most part, not bad decisions.
So I couldn't not put him at the

1334
01:25:49,390 --> 01:25:52,407
top of the list. The,
you know, the creating

1335
01:25:52,490 --> 01:25:56,021
Constantinople and converting
to Christianity and setting the empire on

1336
01:25:56,105 --> 01:26:01,360
a path to conversion, these are major,
like, world history level decisions.

1337
01:26:02,070 --> 01:26:05,847
Right? Now, not many emperors do that.
In fact, Constantine is in,

1338
01:26:05,930 --> 01:26:09,080
like, his own league when it
comes to those kinds of decisions.

1339
01:26:09,880 --> 01:26:15,060
My other criteria for top emperors were
basically those who did the job well,

1340
01:26:16,280 --> 01:26:19,947
right? Not making, you know, these
kinds of earth, you know, shattering

1341
01:26:20,030 --> 01:26:23,640
decisions or, you know, world
history changing decisions, but just

1342
01:26:24,140 --> 01:26:27,997
who performed the role competently with

1343
01:26:28,080 --> 01:26:33,180
results that impacted the lives
of their subjects for the better.

1344
01:26:33,420 --> 01:26:35,620
So those are the other
criteria that I used.

1345
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:39,377
It's difficult to juggle these different
criteria, right, in order to create a

1346
01:26:39,460 --> 01:26:42,506
systematic list. And by the way, we,
historians generally don't do these kinds

1347
01:26:42,589 --> 01:26:45,077
of things. But you said
it's fun. It is fun.

1348
01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:45,637
- It was fun. It was fun.

1349
01:26:45,720 --> 01:26:50,300
- And it allows you to talk about certain
things that you might not otherwise do.

1350
01:26:50,820 --> 01:26:53,170
So yeah, that's why
Constantine was at the top.

1351
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:57,417
- So you mentioned Christianity.
That was one other big component of his

1352
01:26:57,500 --> 01:27:01,300
rule. What was the role of Christianity
in, in Constantine's life,

1353
01:27:02,020 --> 01:27:07,460
in the lives of the citizens
of the new Roman Empire?

1354
01:27:08,180 --> 01:27:12,680
- At this stage, Christianity doesn't have
a role. It actually took the emperors...

1355
01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:17,357
When the emperors took it on board,
that is, they made it a part

1356
01:27:17,440 --> 01:27:21,257
of the imperial system,
then it began to acquire a role

1357
01:27:21,340 --> 01:27:25,157
within the system. Previously,
it had imagined itself as having its

1358
01:27:25,240 --> 01:27:28,577
own history, like not
necessarily part of the

1359
01:27:28,660 --> 01:27:32,497
empire or affiliated
with imperial power. But

1360
01:27:32,580 --> 01:27:34,680
after Constantine, it does acquire a role.

1361
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:37,525
- And so actually, one way to ask
that question, which is fascinating,

1362
01:27:37,609 --> 01:27:42,780
'cause you said that there's like, there's
Rome, and then there's like cultures like,

1363
01:27:43,800 --> 01:27:50,380
or traditions like Christianity,
or being Greek, that kind of thing.

1364
01:27:51,360 --> 01:27:55,020
So, one of the ways to ask
this question is does Christianity

1365
01:27:55,140 --> 01:27:58,710
triumph over Rome, or did
Rome capture Christianity?

1366
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:03,060
- Right. Yes. That's a—
- Which is the mechanism?

1367
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:07,457
- I would lean more toward the second.
In other words, that the religion was

1368
01:28:07,540 --> 01:28:11,440
co-opted by the imperial system.
Now, there are many areas in which

1369
01:28:11,800 --> 01:28:13,590
that's not the case and where
the opposite happens,

1370
01:28:13,674 --> 01:28:15,717
so I'm not going to be absolute about it,

1371
01:28:15,800 --> 01:28:18,650
but I think it's very important
to recognize that because

1372
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:22,680
Christianity generates
this narrative of triumph-

1373
01:28:22,780 --> 01:28:25,480
...right, which modern
historians perpetuate,

1374
01:28:26,340 --> 01:28:28,644
and it's framed in very
particular ways. In other words,

1375
01:28:28,728 --> 01:28:30,177
that Christianity triumphs over the

1376
01:28:30,260 --> 01:28:35,320
ancient religions. Right?
So displacing Zeus and Apollo and all of

1377
01:28:35,440 --> 01:28:39,357
that, and animal sacrifice is gone,
and like, that's because Christianity

1378
01:28:39,440 --> 01:28:42,525
triumphs, and that's a very narrow
way of looking at it. In other words,

1379
01:28:42,608 --> 01:28:45,758
you pick your enemy, and then
you can defeat that enemy, right?

1380
01:28:46,140 --> 01:28:48,465
But if you look in the other
direction, there's, like,

1381
01:28:48,548 --> 01:28:49,977
the Roman imperial state, and you

1382
01:28:50,060 --> 01:28:53,680
cannot say that Christianity
either triumphed over it or

1383
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:56,690
even tamed it or anything.
It actually became part of it.

1384
01:28:56,980 --> 01:29:00,577
in many ways that, you know,
determined its history for

1385
01:29:00,660 --> 01:29:02,560
centuries and, in fact, down to today.

1386
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:06,540
So this is very different,
for example, from the history of Islam.

1387
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:11,310
So Islam comes into existence without a

1388
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:15,417
preexisting state to receive
it and take it on board. It

1389
01:29:15,500 --> 01:29:19,210
creates its own state, right?
So the Muslim armies,

1390
01:29:19,610 --> 01:29:23,580
they conquer this empire,
and then they have to sort of govern it.

1391
01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:25,848
They think according
to whatever Islamic principles.

1392
01:29:25,931 --> 01:29:28,760
The Quran doesn't say anything
about running an empire.

1393
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,557
So that creates a completely
different society, right, where, like,

1394
01:29:32,640 --> 01:29:36,150
Islam is a, is really
a primary kind of identity and,

1395
01:29:36,640 --> 01:29:40,237
like, drives a lot of developments.
But Christianity comes into

1396
01:29:40,320 --> 01:29:43,980
existence within a very
well-developed society and, and

1397
01:29:44,080 --> 01:29:46,080
political system. Now, here's the thing.

1398
01:29:46,440 --> 01:29:50,117
We don't know exactly how many Christians
existed in the time of Constantine.

1399
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:54,057
Well, we speculate maybe 10%
of the empire. That might be very

1400
01:29:54,140 --> 01:29:57,677
high, right? But even if it's 10%, it's

1401
01:29:57,760 --> 01:30:01,580
not a lot, and these are not, like,
elites for the most part. Maybe

1402
01:30:01,740 --> 01:30:05,440
middle, you know, what we
loosely call middle class,

1403
01:30:06,420 --> 01:30:09,270
a few elites, a few slaves,
like this kind of thing.

1404
01:30:10,060 --> 01:30:14,190
Mostly urban, and keeping in mind,
most of the population is rural.

1405
01:30:14,420 --> 01:30:18,197
Right? So pockets
of concentrated, you know,

1406
01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:21,777
Christian groups in cities. That's
what we're talking about. Not terribly

1407
01:30:21,860 --> 01:30:22,877
politically powerful.

1408
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:26,018
- So Constantine's conversion to
Christianity and moving the empire towards

1409
01:30:26,102 --> 01:30:30,167
Christianity is not something where
it's a gigantic majority of the people-

1410
01:30:30,250 --> 01:30:33,159
... or it's a political
convenience because it's the elites.

1411
01:30:33,242 --> 01:30:34,197
It's something else.

1412
01:30:34,280 --> 01:30:38,480
I mean, it's, I mean, a pretty
revolutionary decision, I would say.

1413
01:30:38,580 --> 01:30:42,097
- Exactly. Now, there used to be theories
that Constantine did this for, like,

1414
01:30:42,180 --> 01:30:45,562
pragmatic, cynical reasons, that he,
like, wasn't a true Christian or anything,

1415
01:30:45,645 --> 01:30:50,000
but there was some kind of political
gain to be had here. But I have never

1416
01:30:50,540 --> 01:30:54,020
read a convincing account of what
exactly that political gain is.

1417
01:30:54,900 --> 01:30:58,637
We now know that there are
fewer Christians. They were not

1418
01:30:58,720 --> 01:31:02,257
that influential. You can make
an argument that bishops are a kind of

1419
01:31:02,340 --> 01:31:06,220
convenient social influencers,
you might say. Like, you can use those.

1420
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:08,340
They're not a threat to your position.

1421
01:31:08,460 --> 01:31:11,157
Right? So a bishop is not
gonna try to take the throne.

1422
01:31:11,240 --> 01:31:15,057
So they're not dangerous political
operatives in that way. But they

1423
01:31:15,140 --> 01:31:18,297
do have some influence over sectors
of society, and so that might be

1424
01:31:18,380 --> 01:31:22,097
a... Okay, I see that,
but I don't quite see the

1425
01:31:22,180 --> 01:31:24,390
argument for, like, going full Christian,

1426
01:31:25,320 --> 01:31:28,595
Just to get the support of some bishops,
who actually pretty quickly turn out

1427
01:31:28,678 --> 01:31:31,328
to be, some of them,
more trouble than they're worth.

1428
01:31:31,660 --> 01:31:35,400
Anyway, so I have not
yet seen a convincing

1429
01:31:35,660 --> 01:31:39,580
like, political argument for Constantine's
decision, which means that you then

1430
01:31:39,680 --> 01:31:43,277
fall back on a personal
explanation that he did this

1431
01:31:43,360 --> 01:31:47,080
because he was a believing Christian,
right? And he came out,

1432
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:51,177
You know, in support of the religion
that he held, and that's kind of

1433
01:31:51,260 --> 01:31:54,340
where most scholars are today.
Though, I gotta tell you,

1434
01:31:55,340 --> 01:31:59,037
historians are very uncomfortable
about personal choice, like explaining

1435
01:31:59,120 --> 01:32:01,720
history in terms of these
kinds of personal choices.

1436
01:32:02,260 --> 01:32:05,960
Because Constantine's conversion
is like, it's massive. It

1437
01:32:06,060 --> 01:32:11,540
opens the door. It incentivizes
so many people to also convert.

1438
01:32:11,730 --> 01:32:15,557
'Cause Romans will generally
do what their, you know, rulers

1439
01:32:15,640 --> 01:32:19,437
will tell them. If we've
mentioned Hadrian a few times

1440
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:23,240
Hadrian's, he had this lover,
Antinous, Greek boy from Bithynia,

1441
01:32:23,820 --> 01:32:26,820
who died in an accident in Egypt,
whatever, and Hadrian said

1442
01:32:27,310 --> 01:32:31,010
Basically that Antinous should be
regarded as a god throughout the empire.

1443
01:32:31,850 --> 01:32:35,707
And he was. We have, like, more statues
and busts of Antinous from all of

1444
01:32:35,790 --> 01:32:39,640
these temples all over the empire than
I think of anyone else except Hadrian.

1445
01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:42,982
So yeah, if, if the emperor says,
like, "This is a person who's a god now,

1446
01:32:43,066 --> 01:32:45,407
you know, put statues of him
everywhere," they will.

1447
01:32:45,490 --> 01:32:49,387
And when Constantine comes out in favor
of Christianity, you know, suddenly people

1448
01:32:49,470 --> 01:32:53,647
discover that, oh, this is an interesting
rite. It's got the support of the emperor.

1449
01:32:53,730 --> 01:32:55,778
- So one of the things here,
going to the Perplexity,

1450
01:32:55,861 --> 01:33:00,690
Constantine's conversion to Christianity
is usually dated to 312 AD,

1451
01:33:01,410 --> 01:33:04,887
Linked to a visionary experience
before the Battle of the Milvian

1452
01:33:04,970 --> 01:33:11,672
Bridge. Do you believe that vision, that
he had this religious experience before

1453
01:33:11,756 --> 01:33:15,747
the Battle of the Milvian Bridge?
Here it says, "But historians debate

1454
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:17,790
both its nature and its sincerity."

1455
01:33:18,390 --> 01:33:20,227
- Well- - Do you believe
the sincerity of that experience?

1456
01:33:20,310 --> 01:33:21,917
- Before we even get to the sincerity-

1457
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:25,800
... is the problem of the sources.
This is reported by authors writing later

1458
01:33:25,990 --> 01:33:28,740
in the aftermath of a victory
when the emperor... Like,

1459
01:33:29,090 --> 01:33:33,007
one of them had a dinner conversation with
the emperor a few decades later, and he

1460
01:33:33,090 --> 01:33:35,456
said, "Well, let me tell you about
the Milvian Bridge." And it's like, okay,

1461
01:33:35,540 --> 01:33:38,387
I'm not gonna believe that. I'm not
gonna take that at face value, rather.

1462
01:33:38,470 --> 01:33:42,327
It's a much more complicated...
You know, this is how the emperor

1463
01:33:42,410 --> 01:33:43,777
wants things to be remembered.

1464
01:33:43,860 --> 01:33:47,527
That's different. Also, Constantine
tended to have a lot of religious visions.

1465
01:33:47,610 --> 01:33:51,507
He had had religious visions
of Apollo before Christ, and we have

1466
01:33:51,590 --> 01:33:54,484
sources that talk about that, too,
that he went to this temple in Gaul,

1467
01:33:54,567 --> 01:33:55,427
and Apollo appeared to

1468
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:59,121
him in the form of light. Okay,
Constantine has a religious vision every

1469
01:33:59,205 --> 01:34:03,240
time he kind of wants to shift
policies. And his, like,

1470
01:34:03,500 --> 01:34:06,850
profile. Like, when he wanted
to break away from his other emperors

1471
01:34:07,510 --> 01:34:10,917
who used to go for the, like, they went
for this kind of Jupiter/Hercules model.

1472
01:34:11,000 --> 01:34:14,687
And he shifted to an Apollo model.
This is a branding. This is emperors doing

1473
01:34:14,770 --> 01:34:19,667
branding. - So we should say that,
as you've described, Constantine is a

1474
01:34:19,750 --> 01:34:21,510
pragmatist. He's very pragmatic.

1475
01:34:22,370 --> 01:34:26,707
- Yeah. - But you're saying it's
fair to believe, based on the

1476
01:34:26,790 --> 01:34:31,830
evidence, that he actually converged
towards being a Christian believer.

1477
01:34:32,110 --> 01:34:35,997
- Yeah. It's very possible,
in fact plausible, that he thought

1478
01:34:36,080 --> 01:34:39,310
the Christian God had
helped him in battle. And,

1479
01:34:40,150 --> 01:34:44,167
you know, for someone like him, that's as
good a reason as any to support that god.

1480
01:34:44,250 --> 01:34:48,010
- But he was not, like, a hardcore
Christian all the way through.

1481
01:34:48,630 --> 01:34:52,507
He was a kind of a spiritual,
religious kind of person. He

1482
01:34:52,590 --> 01:34:59,590
thought about religions more generally
and just converged towards Christianity as

1483
01:35:00,090 --> 01:35:04,357
a good religion. He also had ideas
about what a good religion is-

1484
01:35:04,440 --> 01:35:08,587
... and what a bad religion is, that kind
of stuff. So he's thinking in this space.

1485
01:35:08,670 --> 01:35:11,410
- He's tending not to be too explicit.

1486
01:35:11,530 --> 01:35:15,447
Depending on the audience.
So Constantine remains a pragmatist

1487
01:35:15,530 --> 01:35:20,107
in the sense that he doesn't want to
alienate too many of his subjects, right?

1488
01:35:20,190 --> 01:35:20,887
- Mm-hmm. Fair. Mm-hmm.

1489
01:35:20,970 --> 01:35:25,847
- And so he's sometimes a bit
coy or elusive about what he's

1490
01:35:25,930 --> 01:35:29,787
getting at. When he's talking to
Christians, he will talk about Christ. He

1491
01:35:29,870 --> 01:35:33,920
will mention Christ. When he's talking
to everybody else in, like, a general law,

1492
01:35:34,250 --> 01:35:38,187
he'll just refer to good religion.
And it's like, maybe

1493
01:35:38,270 --> 01:35:43,350
you know what I mean, right? But he's
not gonna, like, you know, come to Jesus.

1494
01:35:43,510 --> 01:35:44,467
- Yeah. - Right? - Yeah.

1495
01:35:44,550 --> 01:35:49,890
- So even at the time when he's,
like, supporting the church, like,

1496
01:35:50,670 --> 01:35:54,447
basically institutionalizing
the church as part of the imperial

1497
01:35:54,530 --> 01:35:57,947
system, but he's also putting up
statues of himself that look like

1498
01:35:58,030 --> 01:36:01,847
Apollo in Constantinople,
right? So the focal point of

1499
01:36:01,930 --> 01:36:04,780
Constantine's Constantinople
is the Forum of Constantine.

1500
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:08,707
And in the middle is this very tall
column, and it has a colossal statue of

1501
01:36:08,790 --> 01:36:12,487
Constantine on top, gilded, enormous

1502
01:36:12,570 --> 01:36:16,527
thing. I don't know, like, eight
meters tall or whatever. But it's a

1503
01:36:16,610 --> 01:36:20,367
repurposed Apollo. It's even, it,
like, visibly so. It's naked. It

1504
01:36:20,450 --> 01:36:22,257
has the rays coming out of the-

1505
01:36:22,340 --> 01:36:25,840
... head, right? Right. And everybody
knew it was an Apollo. So that's

1506
01:36:25,930 --> 01:36:29,190
Constantine in the guise
of his old patron god, Apollo.

1507
01:36:30,090 --> 01:36:33,787
Still, but he's still Christian
Constantine, so he's sending all of these

1508
01:36:33,870 --> 01:36:34,787
different messages.

1509
01:36:34,870 --> 01:36:38,467
- I mean, he likes being the god-like
figure. I mean, that whole

1510
01:36:38,550 --> 01:36:40,730
statue just is like, "I am the god."

1511
01:36:41,190 --> 01:36:43,847
- Yeah. It's assimilating
yourself to... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1512
01:36:43,930 --> 01:36:46,388
- And I mean, a lot of the
Romans, is it fair to say,

1513
01:36:46,471 --> 01:36:48,147
kinda saw the emperor
a little bit in that light?

1514
01:36:48,230 --> 01:36:50,627
- No, yeah. Oh, yeah.
They called him divine and-

1515
01:36:50,710 --> 01:36:53,084
... yeah. There's not a hard
theology there, right? Like,

1516
01:36:53,167 --> 01:36:56,067
if you pressed them on the actual
theology, they wouldn't-

1517
01:36:56,210 --> 01:37:00,047
... they wouldn't say the emperor
is a god. No. This is mushy.

1518
01:37:00,130 --> 01:37:01,570
This gets very, very mushy.

1519
01:37:01,690 --> 01:37:07,330
- But I mean, a lot of the Christians
have a kinda humility before God.

1520
01:37:07,950 --> 01:37:11,750
I think when you have an emperor
that's god-like, it gets a little weird-

1521
01:37:11,870 --> 01:37:15,387
- Yes. Yes -...
in the way you talk about God.

1522
01:37:15,470 --> 01:37:19,176
- It depends on the context. Like, there
are contexts in which you are an emperor

1523
01:37:19,260 --> 01:37:19,327
and

1524
01:37:19,410 --> 01:37:23,287
you're proclaiming your majesty, and then
there are more personal contexts where you

1525
01:37:23,370 --> 01:37:27,247
might be more humble because,
I don't know, you're being baptized or

1526
01:37:27,330 --> 01:37:29,630
something. Like, those
are different contexts.

1527
01:37:29,810 --> 01:37:33,607
- So can you speak to the whole process
of the conversion to Christianity, of the-

1528
01:37:33,690 --> 01:37:37,587
... propagation of Christianity throughout
the empire and, and Constantine's role in

1529
01:37:37,670 --> 01:37:41,927
that? - Constantine, or his
successors as well, because this was a

1530
01:37:42,010 --> 01:37:45,750
gradual process, and it takes
a very long time. So let's,

1531
01:37:46,410 --> 01:37:48,110
Let's put it into perspective.

1532
01:37:49,430 --> 01:37:52,910
We probably can't talk about
a majority Christian society

1533
01:37:53,110 --> 01:37:56,997
until maybe the 5th century, or early 5th-

1534
01:37:57,080 --> 01:38:00,410
... mid-5th. We don't
have data, obviously.

1535
01:38:01,330 --> 01:38:04,910
And we can't talk about,
like, a solidly Christian

1536
01:38:05,010 --> 01:38:08,927
society until early 6th century.
And by solidly, I mean maybe

1537
01:38:09,010 --> 01:38:15,320
where the non-Christians are 10,
15%, right? So that's a long time.

1538
01:38:15,430 --> 01:38:18,780
That's, like, five centuries after Jesus.
That's half a millennium.

1539
01:38:19,410 --> 01:38:24,750
So we're talking about a half a millennial
process here. It's, it's very long.

1540
01:38:25,010 --> 01:38:29,557
- But it's only a couple of centuries
after Constantine. So it takes-

1541
01:38:29,640 --> 01:38:34,450
... about two centuries to really
make the Roman Empire Christian

1542
01:38:34,720 --> 01:38:38,567
- Yes. So very slow conversion,
maybe, maybe up to 10%

1543
01:38:38,650 --> 01:38:42,317
tops under Constantine.
Then obviously larger and

1544
01:38:42,400 --> 01:38:45,920
larger groups join the church,
even if only nominally, right?

1545
01:38:46,800 --> 01:38:50,617
Until you get to the sixth century
when you're clearly talking about a, you

1546
01:38:50,700 --> 01:38:53,200
know, mostly or overwhelmingly
Christian society.

1547
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:56,410
A lot of this is just
done through incentives

1548
01:38:57,500 --> 01:39:01,337
and disincentives, right?
So bishops are given

1549
01:39:01,420 --> 01:39:05,270
funds with which to distribute,
like, charity and

1550
01:39:05,360 --> 01:39:09,017
help to communities in distress.
They have lists of

1551
01:39:09,100 --> 01:39:12,997
widows and whatever they support. Land is

1552
01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:16,757
given to the church by the emperors
or in wills so that they

1553
01:39:16,840 --> 01:39:20,437
can engage in this kind of social policy.
And then there are disincentives. So

1554
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:24,790
emperors pass laws that increasingly
restrict the exercise of traditional

1555
01:39:24,873 --> 01:39:28,757
religion. Like, you can't perform animal
sacrifices, then you can't start doing

1556
01:39:28,840 --> 01:39:32,717
these like tying ribbons to make
wishes or, like, all of these

1557
01:39:32,800 --> 01:39:35,950
things, like going out to sacred
trees and doing this or that,

1558
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:39,957
because they say, "Oh, this is kind
of nefarious business," or, like, magic or

1559
01:39:40,040 --> 01:39:43,897
whatever it is. And then they just
gradually start outlawing it more

1560
01:39:43,980 --> 01:39:47,897
and more, putting restrictions on, like,
if you're not a Christian, you can't hold

1561
01:39:47,980 --> 01:39:51,780
these high offices or you can't...
Your... There's problems with your wills.

1562
01:39:52,080 --> 01:39:53,780
So they gradually do it like that.

1563
01:39:54,620 --> 01:39:58,480
And this is how you... Yeah,
this is... And it works. It works.

1564
01:39:58,780 --> 01:40:02,597
- What explains the success
of Christianity after Constantine?

1565
01:40:02,680 --> 01:40:08,060
Why was it, as a technology, so successful
at spreading throughout the empire?

1566
01:40:08,880 --> 01:40:12,320
- Christianity developed in a number of

1567
01:40:12,920 --> 01:40:16,620
ways. So it acquired a certain
number of forms that were capable

1568
01:40:16,760 --> 01:40:20,280
of appealing to different constituencies.

1569
01:40:20,380 --> 01:40:25,280
In other words, there
was an intellectual side to it,

1570
01:40:26,100 --> 01:40:28,960
The sort of theology, the almost

1571
01:40:29,220 --> 01:40:33,097
quasi-philosophical or engagement
with philosophical schools that could

1572
01:40:33,180 --> 01:40:37,220
draw in, let's say,
intellectuals. There is a,

1573
01:40:38,060 --> 01:40:42,037
a public ceremony and ritual
aspect where you can organize

1574
01:40:42,120 --> 01:40:45,777
communities and cities
to have processions or,

1575
01:40:45,860 --> 01:40:49,717
like, have ho- all these festivals
that take the place of the ancient

1576
01:40:49,800 --> 01:40:54,060
ones. You have a kind of

1577
01:40:54,980 --> 01:40:58,760
not, it's not secretive,
but it's kind of this initiatory aspect

1578
01:40:59,180 --> 01:41:02,920
where there's this baptism
and you learn a sort of creed,

1579
01:41:03,120 --> 01:41:06,777
and you're initiated into
the religion with the prospect of a

1580
01:41:06,860 --> 01:41:10,677
personal afterlife, right?
And that appeals to other kinds

1581
01:41:10,760 --> 01:41:14,740
of people. There's also ways in which it

1582
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:18,380
it integrated itself into
the court and the language of power.

1583
01:41:19,080 --> 01:41:22,817
Also in the army, right?
Soldiers now swear an oath to the

1584
01:41:22,900 --> 01:41:26,517
Trinity, right? So it takes all
of these different forms that

1585
01:41:26,600 --> 01:41:30,200
enable it to position itself, you know,

1586
01:41:30,340 --> 01:41:34,080
here and there and, you know, in the
streets, in the court, in the armies,

1587
01:41:34,620 --> 01:41:38,557
in the churches,
in texts, in books. And so

1588
01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:43,960
it has this kind of manifold diversity,
right, that makes it very adaptable.

1589
01:41:44,560 --> 01:41:46,610
- So one of the things you mentioned that

1590
01:41:47,480 --> 01:41:51,137
Constantine did not anticipate,
did not realize that Christianity

1591
01:41:51,220 --> 01:41:53,270
creates divisions between various groups.

1592
01:41:53,420 --> 01:41:57,220
- So in part, this happens when you have,

1593
01:41:57,640 --> 01:42:01,937
Religions that make exclusive claims,
right? Like, my beliefs are true-

1594
01:42:02,020 --> 01:42:07,440
... and yours are by definition false.
Not, not just wrong, but false and

1595
01:42:07,540 --> 01:42:10,787
even kinda evil. Like maybe-...
Satan put them in your mind to-

1596
01:42:10,870 --> 01:42:15,080
... lead you astray, right? And this
is inherently divisive. Like, it is.

1597
01:42:15,940 --> 01:42:18,360
So there's this paradox where

1598
01:42:19,500 --> 01:42:23,220
Christianity, in contrast to,
say, the ancient religions, is both

1599
01:42:23,420 --> 01:42:30,217
far more polarizing but also far
more powerful as a unifying force

1600
01:42:30,300 --> 01:42:34,037
at the same time, right?
So ancient religions tended not to

1601
01:42:34,120 --> 01:42:38,060
produce this kind of conflict
or identities, right,

1602
01:42:38,180 --> 01:42:41,737
or, or wars or these kinds of things.
And they could under certain

1603
01:42:41,820 --> 01:42:44,920
circumstances,
but for the most part, they were not

1604
01:42:45,540 --> 01:42:49,497
drivers of history in this kind of way.
But when you have exclusive claims, then

1605
01:42:49,580 --> 01:42:52,657
suddenly these very communities of,
that are sort of

1606
01:42:52,740 --> 01:42:57,070
consolidated and have
this very strong identity,

1607
01:42:57,900 --> 01:43:02,310
But you also alienate other groups-...
that you then are in conflict with.

1608
01:43:03,140 --> 01:43:06,990
So this is why I for one
can't come down on whether,

1609
01:43:07,360 --> 01:43:11,097
you know, Christianity is more of a
unifying force or a divisive force in the

1610
01:43:11,180 --> 01:43:13,930
history of the Eastern Empire,
because it's, it's both.

1611
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:18,350
- And also trying to figure out
whether the unifying or the divisive

1612
01:43:19,040 --> 01:43:21,437
aspects are a feature or a bug.

1613
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:25,077
Maybe some of the divisive
elements is a way for society

1614
01:43:25,160 --> 01:43:30,740
internally to try to, much like the civil
wars, to try to figure itself out.

1615
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:35,437
- Yes. - So sometimes tension and conflict
is a good mechanism for figuring out what

1616
01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:38,767
do the people want.
- Or what's the truth, right?

1617
01:43:38,850 --> 01:43:43,337
- Or what's the truth. - Yeah. So the
story that it likes to tell itself is that

1618
01:43:43,420 --> 01:43:46,837
there's this, like,
this one original truth, and the

1619
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:50,877
hardcore of true believers is defending
that truth at every moment against

1620
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:52,787
all of these evil
heretics who are coming in-

1621
01:43:52,870 --> 01:43:56,657
... and trying to corrupt it. In reality,
what happens is that this truth is

1622
01:43:56,740 --> 01:44:00,740
something that's evolving
in the course of the controversies.

1623
01:44:01,780 --> 01:44:05,417
And, like, often they don't
know that they believed

1624
01:44:05,500 --> 01:44:09,257
that until in retrospect,
once they've had the fight and the winner

1625
01:44:09,340 --> 01:44:13,257
has this position, oh, now that turns
out to have been the position we

1626
01:44:13,340 --> 01:44:17,277
always held, right? And this happens
again and again and again. You know, a lot

1627
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:19,360
of the time, these Christian theologians

1628
01:44:20,060 --> 01:44:23,403
who get into so much trouble and get
branded as heretics and sometimes get sent

1629
01:44:23,487 --> 01:44:26,500
into exile, they didn't mean any harm.

1630
01:44:27,370 --> 01:44:31,140
They often just were stating what
they thought everybody believed.

1631
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:34,072
And then when they blurt it out,
someone is like, off in Alexandria,

1632
01:44:34,156 --> 01:44:37,024
is like, "What? That's heresy." And then
now you're, now you're in trouble.

1633
01:44:37,107 --> 01:44:38,697
Now you're getting
into this fight, and you

1634
01:44:38,780 --> 01:44:42,537
might win, you might lose. But, like,
a lot of them were kind of sort of

1635
01:44:42,620 --> 01:44:46,457
well-intentioned in that way, or they
had no intention of starting a fight. But

1636
01:44:46,540 --> 01:44:49,040
there's always someone
who wants to start a fight.

1637
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:53,440
- Yeah, I mean, sometimes
the fights are extremely intense

1638
01:44:53,560 --> 01:44:57,080
over things that I could
see on the surface or, like,

1639
01:44:57,220 --> 01:45:00,880
iconography. It's like,
it seems like a very subtle-

1640
01:45:00,980 --> 01:45:04,380
...debate, like almost academic. And then

1641
01:45:04,840 --> 01:45:08,520
a large number of people
don't see it as academic. They,

1642
01:45:09,060 --> 01:45:11,917
they do see it like the devil
put ideas in your head that are-

1643
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:16,408
...completely wrong, and it's, it's
fascinating how that kind of division can

1644
01:45:16,492 --> 01:45:17,592
emerge. Uh, I mean, I—

1645
01:45:18,380 --> 01:45:21,960
The impossible question, and I
apologize for asking it, but maybe just

1646
01:45:22,100 --> 01:45:27,557
worthwhile to try to think about
it is, on the grand scale of

1647
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:30,960
centuries of the East
Roman Empire, is religion

1648
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:35,720
a constructive or a destructive force

1649
01:45:36,260 --> 01:45:40,180
for the empire? Did it help it
flourish, or did it hold it back?

1650
01:45:41,240 --> 01:45:44,867
- This society identified
itself increasingly

1651
01:45:44,950 --> 01:45:49,347
with what it saw as orthodoxy. Orthodoxy
just means correct belief. I mean—

1652
01:45:49,430 --> 01:45:52,930
...like every religion ultimately
thinks it's orthodox, right? That's—

1653
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:56,720
But that's the conventional name, right?
Orthodoxy today might be called Greek

1654
01:45:56,804 --> 01:46:03,000
Orthodoxy. Um, and I mean, it's such
an essential part of the culture.

1655
01:46:03,680 --> 01:46:07,617
It really is. I can't think
of the two of them inde... I mean,

1656
01:46:07,700 --> 01:46:11,620
I try to because, as a historian,
I have to test the models,

1657
01:46:11,820 --> 01:46:15,077
you know, and try to see these
things as independent of each other.

1658
01:46:15,160 --> 01:46:18,657
But ultimately, it's very difficult to

1659
01:46:18,740 --> 01:46:22,577
disentangle them, and I would
say that to the degree that

1660
01:46:22,660 --> 01:46:25,160
this is a successful society historically,

1661
01:46:26,040 --> 01:46:29,860
that its religion definitely contributed
to that and played a role in it.

1662
01:46:29,960 --> 01:46:33,777
Not without cost, right?
There are, it mattered to

1663
01:46:33,860 --> 01:46:38,557
them. They valued it, but things
that matter to you have a cost.

1664
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:42,740
And they paid that price. They were
willing to pay that price for it.

1665
01:46:43,540 --> 01:46:49,080
For example, at the very end, they had to
choose between Catholicism, Western rule,

1666
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:53,520
where they essentially have
to compromise on their faith, or

1667
01:46:54,000 --> 01:46:58,640
rule by Muslims, the Turks, where they
would not have to compromise their faith.

1668
01:46:59,640 --> 01:47:03,040
And some of them were explicit
that they were preferring option B,

1669
01:47:03,780 --> 01:47:09,660
because the Turks will at least respect
our identity. Like, that's a cost.

1670
01:47:09,940 --> 01:47:12,920
- Yeah. But there's other
layers, like taxation and-

1671
01:47:13,780 --> 01:47:15,477
...the, the functions of government—

1672
01:47:15,560 --> 01:47:19,510
... that are connected to religion
to the degree it interacts with the

1673
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:23,240
tax system. But it feels
like that's the engine

1674
01:47:23,700 --> 01:47:27,080
of the society and religion
is more like the cultural layer.

1675
01:47:27,320 --> 01:47:31,040
- Yeah. So this is why I said that I try

1676
01:47:31,440 --> 01:47:35,137
in thinking of the models
that we use to understand the

1677
01:47:35,220 --> 01:47:38,537
society, not to assume that religion is

1678
01:47:38,620 --> 01:47:42,317
everywhere and for everything.
Now, I have colleagues who do

1679
01:47:42,400 --> 01:47:46,297
that, and I would disagree with them about
this, but you're exactly right. There are

1680
01:47:46,380 --> 01:47:50,617
elements of this society that I
like to see as their own thing.

1681
01:47:50,700 --> 01:47:55,240
Like the Roman identity, for example.
It's not the same as Orthodoxy.

1682
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:59,877
But also the operations
of the state. Those are

1683
01:47:59,960 --> 01:48:03,457
very pragmatic things, and you see them

1684
01:48:03,540 --> 01:48:06,757
intersect with religion
in, largely in areas of

1685
01:48:06,840 --> 01:48:10,517
terminology or the vocabulary that
they use or, you know, like at the

1686
01:48:10,600 --> 01:48:13,200
top, but not at their actual functioning.

1687
01:48:14,060 --> 01:48:17,977
So in my field,
I'm a historian who's tried

1688
01:48:18,060 --> 01:48:21,997
to promote other aspects
of the culture as having

1689
01:48:22,080 --> 01:48:27,240
a kind of integrity of their own and not
to subsume them all within Orthodoxy.

1690
01:48:28,020 --> 01:48:31,870
- So, I mean, again,
an impossible way of asking the

1691
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:37,000
same question. If you asked
a Roman, a million Romans across

1692
01:48:38,220 --> 01:48:44,010
a thousand years, "Are you
a Roman or a Christian?"

1693
01:48:44,770 --> 01:48:45,727
What would be the answer for that?

1694
01:48:45,810 --> 01:48:47,620
- Oh, both. Oh, absolutely.

1695
01:48:47,720 --> 01:48:49,677
- No, you don't get to say both.
You're not allowed to do that.

1696
01:48:49,760 --> 01:48:52,137
- Why not? It's the- - Well,
you're- - It's the true answer.

1697
01:48:52,220 --> 01:48:55,020
- Okay. So you're saying
they're really tied together.

1698
01:48:55,840 --> 01:48:59,320
- Well, they overlap.
But if you were to...

1699
01:48:59,800 --> 01:49:03,717
And this might be a somewhat more
subtle conversation than most of

1700
01:49:03,800 --> 01:49:07,717
them would want to have, but if you
were to say, "Is Roman and Christian the

1701
01:49:07,800 --> 01:49:11,417
same thing to you?" If they
thought about it for a little while,

1702
01:49:11,500 --> 01:49:18,097
they'd quickly be able to say no. Because
there were, I mean, just logically, there

1703
01:49:18,180 --> 01:49:20,080
were Christians who were not Romans.

1704
01:49:20,660 --> 01:49:24,480
The Bulgarians or the Rus or,
you know, whoever.

1705
01:49:24,660 --> 01:49:28,317
There were lots of Christians who were
not Roman, and they did not regard them as

1706
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:32,200
Roman just because they were Christian.
Conversely, they knew perfectly well

1707
01:49:32,660 --> 01:49:34,617
that there had been Romans
who were not Christians,

1708
01:49:34,700 --> 01:49:36,177
and they knew this how? Because in the

1709
01:49:36,260 --> 01:49:39,677
churches like almost
every week, they celebrated

1710
01:49:39,760 --> 01:49:43,000
martyrs who had been killed
by the Roman emperors in the past.

1711
01:49:43,550 --> 01:49:47,277
And so it was, like,
the performance of violence by

1712
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:50,201
Roman emperors against Christians
was something they remember.

1713
01:49:50,284 --> 01:49:55,300
They knew perfectly well. So those
two things did not overlap perfectly.

1714
01:49:55,820 --> 01:49:59,617
And there were some contexts in which
you would be more Roman, and there were

1715
01:49:59,700 --> 01:50:02,250
some contexts in which you
would be more Christian.

1716
01:50:02,480 --> 01:50:06,330
And you find characters who, and I
love to do this. I find characters who,

1717
01:50:07,540 --> 01:50:11,217
As some sources say we didn't pay
too much attention to Christian

1718
01:50:11,300 --> 01:50:15,177
things. Like, they were just politicians.
They were just doing their work. And then

1719
01:50:15,260 --> 01:50:19,000
you find characters who, like,
devote themselves. They go all

1720
01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:22,977
in on Orthodoxy and, like,
monasticism and they just don't care about

1721
01:50:23,060 --> 01:50:24,967
the Roman stuff at all.

1722
01:50:25,050 --> 01:50:28,837
And that is, in fact, part of the reason
why I like this society, is because

1723
01:50:28,920 --> 01:50:30,872
it has these kinds of options
for people to choose.

1724
01:50:30,955 --> 01:50:32,917
And there's another one.
There's the Greek stuff,

1725
01:50:33,000 --> 01:50:35,747
too, because their language is Greek,
their literature is Greek,

1726
01:50:35,830 --> 01:50:40,110
and so there are people in the society
who go all in on the Greek stuff. Right?

1727
01:50:40,700 --> 01:50:44,467
And I see this society
as this kind of laboratory of

1728
01:50:44,550 --> 01:50:47,907
these three elements
coexisting in these fascinating

1729
01:50:47,990 --> 01:50:51,567
combinations. Usually it's
combinations, right? But

1730
01:50:51,650 --> 01:50:55,607
sometimes you'll find people who are like,
kinda try to be purists in one way or

1731
01:50:55,690 --> 01:50:59,607
another. And it's the only
society in history in

1732
01:50:59,690 --> 01:51:03,223
which you can do this, 'cause it's the
only society that's Roman and Christian

1733
01:51:03,306 --> 01:51:05,390
and Greek. But in different ways, right?

1734
01:51:06,290 --> 01:51:08,322
- Yeah, unfortunately,
I think it's tempting,

1735
01:51:08,405 --> 01:51:10,155
but it's probably impossible to say

1736
01:51:10,450 --> 01:51:13,810
if we remove the taxation system,
would the, would Roman Empire

1737
01:51:13,910 --> 01:51:17,807
be more or less successful? If we
removed religion, would it be more or

1738
01:51:17,890 --> 01:51:23,130
less successful? - Right.
- If we removed, uh,

1739
01:51:24,090 --> 01:51:26,174
Greek and kept it Latin
all the way through,

1740
01:51:26,257 --> 01:51:28,057
would it be more or less successful?

1741
01:51:28,410 --> 01:51:32,110
It's probably impossible to do this kind
of analysis 'cause they're all so

1742
01:51:32,750 --> 01:51:36,814
deeply integrated. - And fundamentally,
it also wouldn't be what it was.

1743
01:51:36,898 --> 01:51:38,750
It would be something different.

1744
01:51:39,170 --> 01:51:43,047
- But there is a big temptation, and
this is at the core of your work, and to

1745
01:51:43,130 --> 01:51:47,810
understand why did the East Roman
Empire last as long as it did.

1746
01:51:48,170 --> 01:51:51,170
And why did the broader Roman
Empire last as long as it did?

1747
01:51:51,310 --> 01:51:57,327
- Yeah. - 'Cause it's, it is one of, if
not the most successful empires in terms

1748
01:51:57,410 --> 01:52:02,070
of duration and stability
in a very dense part of the world.

1749
01:52:02,250 --> 01:52:05,710
- That's actually like my next project.
I'm starting to write a book

1750
01:52:06,310 --> 01:52:11,210
trying to explain just kind
of from an analytical standpoint why.

1751
01:52:11,730 --> 01:52:13,367
- How did it last so long? - Yeah.

1752
01:52:13,450 --> 01:52:15,400
- A lot of your work kinda hints at it.

1753
01:52:15,550 --> 01:52:16,487
- Yeah. - It's here and there.

1754
01:52:16,570 --> 01:52:19,449
But you're trying to do more,
more systematic. So,

1755
01:52:19,532 --> 01:52:21,570
and we'll keep hinting at it. - Yes.

1756
01:52:22,010 --> 01:52:25,830
- But to put a bow tie
on Constantinople, it went from a

1757
01:52:25,970 --> 01:52:29,710
very low population of maybe 25,000 people

1758
01:52:30,250 --> 01:52:37,130
to 500,000 people in just two centuries.
So can you explain how that happened?

1759
01:52:37,910 --> 01:52:41,807
- Well, it didn't happen
through just demographic growth

1760
01:52:41,890 --> 01:52:45,287
and reproduction in the city itself.
That rate of growth is

1761
01:52:45,370 --> 01:52:49,370
impossible for an ancient city.
So when I say 20,000, 25,000, that's

1762
01:52:50,230 --> 01:52:53,780
possibly what the ancient
city of Byzantium had-

1763
01:52:53,990 --> 01:52:56,273
... when Constantine decided
to found Constantinople,

1764
01:52:56,357 --> 01:52:57,787
and it grew to a city of a half a

1765
01:52:57,870 --> 01:53:01,220
million in two centuries.
That can only have been done in one way,

1766
01:53:02,230 --> 01:53:05,109
and that is immigration
from the provinces.

1767
01:53:05,192 --> 01:53:07,810
So people must have been moving there,

1768
01:53:08,770 --> 01:53:10,830
In large numbers,

1769
01:53:12,870 --> 01:53:16,787
Which is a movement that we can't
see very clearly in the sources, but

1770
01:53:16,870 --> 01:53:20,290
we have to infer it and then
try to explain it. So,

1771
01:53:21,130 --> 01:53:27,790
Also there's another factor, which is that
ancient cities we now know or suspect are

1772
01:53:28,810 --> 01:53:32,647
what some historians call death traps.
In other words, the density

1773
01:53:32,730 --> 01:53:38,290
of disease is such that ancient cities
probably are losing something like

1774
01:53:38,710 --> 01:53:42,370
1, 2, possibly 3%
of their population per year.

1775
01:53:43,610 --> 01:53:49,020
So just in order to stay with a stable
population, they have to import people.

1776
01:53:49,190 --> 01:53:53,630
Right? Now, they're not like 17th
century London. They're not that bad.

1777
01:53:53,770 --> 01:53:56,530
- Do diseases and plagues
seem to be prevalent?

1778
01:53:56,790 --> 01:54:00,587
- Oh, yeah. Now, you know,
Roman cities have some corrections

1779
01:54:00,670 --> 01:54:04,059
for these sorts of things, like the way
they distribute the water through

1780
01:54:04,142 --> 01:54:08,220
the city. Anyway, they,
they weren't as bad as they could've been,

1781
01:54:08,770 --> 01:54:12,647
but there's that. So not only
to keep the population steady, but to

1782
01:54:12,730 --> 01:54:16,567
expand it so dramatically means
that a lot of people are coming in

1783
01:54:16,650 --> 01:54:20,567
from the provinces, mostly
the Greek-speaking provinces. So

1784
01:54:20,650 --> 01:54:24,347
you know, Greece, Asia Minor,
and some of the major cities in the

1785
01:54:24,430 --> 01:54:28,267
East that are Greek speaking.
And I start to wonder

1786
01:54:28,350 --> 01:54:32,670
like, well, how did this happen?
Like, who are these people, for one thing?

1787
01:54:33,550 --> 01:54:37,387
And then I did some simple calculations.
So I mentioned earlier that we

1788
01:54:37,470 --> 01:54:40,120
have something like two
and a half thousand senators-

1789
01:54:40,290 --> 01:54:43,450
... Who are required initially
to reside in Constantinople.

1790
01:54:44,130 --> 01:54:46,650
Well, senators don't
live in bachelor pads.

1791
01:54:47,730 --> 01:54:51,627
Senators have manners.
They have household staff, right? In Rome

1792
01:54:51,710 --> 01:54:55,607
at the time, there's a calculation
that a senatorial household

1793
01:54:55,690 --> 01:55:00,470
was something like 100 people,
right? Just servants, slaves,

1794
01:55:01,650 --> 01:55:04,830
dancing girls, cooks,
barbers, whatever, right?

1795
01:55:05,610 --> 01:55:09,487
So let's assume sort of conservatively
that in Constantinople it's

1796
01:55:09,570 --> 01:55:13,410
only 30 people, which it might be
low, right? So if you do the math,

1797
01:55:13,550 --> 01:55:17,700
you're starting to get something like,
I mean, closer to 100,000 people,

1798
01:55:18,730 --> 01:55:21,970
right? And that's just
by bringing in senators.

1799
01:55:22,350 --> 01:55:27,970
Right? They come with people.
So I think this was the nucleus

1800
01:55:29,010 --> 01:55:32,527
of the population.
Now then Constantine also makes

1801
01:55:32,610 --> 01:55:39,607
provision for possibly up to like 200,000
people to receive the grain dole, the

1802
01:55:39,690 --> 01:55:43,627
bread. So that would've incentivized even

1803
01:55:43,710 --> 01:55:47,690
more people to travel there because
there are- - So you get free bread.

1804
01:55:47,890 --> 01:55:51,047
- Yes. And you can't live on that alone,
but it is, it's something.

1805
01:55:51,130 --> 01:55:55,747
- Incentive. Is it true that he diverted
resources from Rome to Constantinople?

1806
01:55:55,830 --> 01:55:59,050
- Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
That grain, that's coming from Egypt.

1807
01:55:59,590 --> 01:56:05,507
So New Rome is literally stealing
food from the mouth of Old Rome.

1808
01:56:05,590 --> 01:56:09,347
Now, Old Rome doesn't starve because they,
they divert other, like from North

1809
01:56:09,430 --> 01:56:11,607
Africa and Sicily,
you can feed Rome, right?

1810
01:56:11,690 --> 01:56:15,150
- But it sends a strong signal
to the people living in Old Rome

1811
01:56:15,390 --> 01:56:17,470
that, long term, we should probably move.

1812
01:56:18,330 --> 01:56:21,830
- Some people do move. So we know
of some senators who move from Rome.

1813
01:56:22,590 --> 01:56:26,407
It sends a signal about the priorities
of the state, like they're investing much

1814
01:56:26,490 --> 01:56:31,030
more in the East. And that the East
would be regarded as an equal parallel

1815
01:56:31,330 --> 01:56:33,530
Roman, you know, world. Yeah.

1816
01:56:33,830 --> 01:56:38,570
- As we talk about
diverting resources, slowly

1817
01:56:39,410 --> 01:56:46,410
the West declines and collapses in 476 AD.
So the Visigoths sack Rome in 410 AD,

1818
01:56:51,180 --> 01:56:54,840
and in 476 AD, the last
Western emperor is deposed,

1819
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:58,780
marking the end of the
Western Roman Empire.

1820
01:56:59,360 --> 01:57:03,160
High-level question:
What is the reason for that decline

1821
01:57:03,320 --> 01:57:06,957
and the collapse of the
Western Roman Empire? So,

1822
01:57:07,040 --> 01:57:10,860
nonstop civil wars, as we've
talked about, weak emperors.

1823
01:57:11,680 --> 01:57:16,680
There's an economic money crisis,
so shrinking tax base,

1824
01:57:17,600 --> 01:57:21,180
rising army costs. There was a loss of key

1825
01:57:21,300 --> 01:57:26,540
provinces, especially in North Africa.
Reliance on contracted barbarian troops

1826
01:57:27,420 --> 01:57:30,527
as they immigrated more and more into—

1827
01:57:30,610 --> 01:57:33,960
...the Western Roman Empire.
Cascading invasions,

1828
01:57:34,100 --> 01:57:41,100
migrations amplified by Hun pressure,
and then the East-West split. The richer

1829
01:57:42,140 --> 01:57:47,560
East survives, the West can't
stabilize under—...that split.

1830
01:57:48,370 --> 01:57:52,297
- Yeah. The crux of the matter
is that barbarian armies, so armies from

1831
01:57:52,380 --> 01:57:56,207
outside the empire,
put increasing pressure on it during

1832
01:57:56,290 --> 01:57:59,827
the fifth century.
And for whatever reason,

1833
01:57:59,910 --> 01:58:03,837
when the Roman state failed
to sort of suppress one of

1834
01:58:03,920 --> 01:58:07,417
them and, say, settled them
here or allowed them to have here

1835
01:58:07,500 --> 01:58:11,357
or couldn't stop them and they took
over a province, like the Vandals did in

1836
01:58:11,440 --> 01:58:16,997
North Africa—...this created this kind
of vicious cycle because then the Roman

1837
01:58:17,080 --> 01:58:20,917
state lost access to the resources
from those provinces, that

1838
01:58:21,000 --> 01:58:23,850
is the taxes, and without
those resources, they couldn't,

1839
01:58:24,420 --> 01:58:28,050
you know, maintain, mobilize,
pay for their armies.

1840
01:58:28,380 --> 01:58:32,317
Then they had fewer armies to handle
the next wave of barbarians that

1841
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:36,277
came in. The previous barbarians who
settled kind of declared their kind

1842
01:58:36,360 --> 01:58:40,360
of independence. They also could not be
put down, and so this created a vicious,

1843
01:58:40,460 --> 01:58:42,360
cycle that just continued in that way.

1844
01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:46,840
It's not rocket science, actually.
I mean, you can see it playing out.

1845
01:58:47,360 --> 01:58:51,200
Yeah. Now, who these groups are,
where they came from, why did they

1846
01:58:51,340 --> 01:58:54,060
cross, that, those are
different questions, right?

1847
01:58:54,980 --> 01:58:58,800
But from the Roman standpoint,
that's how it was experienced. These are

1848
01:58:58,900 --> 01:59:05,900
armies that can defeat a Roman field army-
right, in battle. And sometimes they do.

1849
01:59:07,540 --> 01:59:09,861
And they then settle
and take over territories,

1850
01:59:09,944 --> 01:59:11,497
and then you lose the revenues,

1851
01:59:11,580 --> 01:59:15,017
and so you can't recruit your own armies.
And so, anyway, that's the kind of

1852
01:59:15,100 --> 01:59:17,480
cycle. The East tried to help.

1853
01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:22,175
Occasionally, they would send forces, but
they were also subject to some of the same

1854
01:59:22,259 --> 01:59:26,917
pressures. Because remember,
the Goths cross the Danube for the first

1855
01:59:27,000 --> 01:59:30,637
time in a major way in 376.
Then you have the Battle of

1856
01:59:30,720 --> 01:59:34,657
Adrianople a couple years later, where,
like, one and a half field armies is just

1857
01:59:34,740 --> 01:59:37,919
annihilated, and the Emperor Valens
dies, and the Goths are just, like,

1858
01:59:38,003 --> 01:59:44,450
kind of loose in the Balkans. And there
was then a long war with them, four years.

1859
01:59:44,560 --> 01:59:48,497
It results in a kind
of truce where neither side

1860
01:59:48,580 --> 01:59:52,117
wins, and the Romans, for the first
time, accept the presence of

1861
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:56,320
this quasi-independent Gothic army
in the territory of the empire.

1862
01:59:57,200 --> 02:00:01,037
This is unprecedented,
as I said, and it creates a lot of

1863
02:00:01,120 --> 02:00:05,057
tensions and dysfunctions.
Okay, so why does

1864
02:00:05,140 --> 02:00:08,257
the East survive
and the West does not, right?

1865
02:00:08,340 --> 02:00:12,240
There's... And so the-- Lots of reasons
that we can give here, but one of them

1866
02:00:12,660 --> 02:00:16,060
is the geography that we were
talking about earlier. In other words,

1867
02:00:16,600 --> 02:00:20,420
the, without a fleet, which they
don't have, the Goths can't cross

1868
02:00:20,520 --> 02:00:27,137
over from Thrace or the western Balkans
to Asia Minor and go plunder some of the

1869
02:00:27,220 --> 02:00:31,157
more prosperous provinces.
So they're stuck in the Balkans.

1870
02:00:31,240 --> 02:00:34,694
They're gradually pushed kind of in toward
the western Balkans, which is, like,

1871
02:00:34,777 --> 02:00:38,027
the worst part you, you know,
at the time, like, you wanna be in.

1872
02:00:38,600 --> 02:00:42,840
And eventually, they just decide, "Well,
you know, it's kinda nicer in Naples."

1873
02:00:44,120 --> 02:00:45,670
And so they go to Italy, right?

1874
02:00:46,320 --> 02:00:49,420
Just because there's just a lot
more resources there for them.

1875
02:00:50,120 --> 02:00:53,800
And that's one way that the East
just kind of manages to...

1876
02:00:54,380 --> 02:00:56,380
It doesn't do this deliberately, but it,

1877
02:00:56,880 --> 02:01:00,480
the geography kind of pushes
these invaders to the West.

1878
02:01:00,880 --> 02:01:06,000
- So that's one. So geography is, some
of it's sort of the luck of geography and-

1879
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:09,560
... both of the invaders
and the geography of the empire.

1880
02:01:09,740 --> 02:01:15,380
- Yeah. - But, you know,
the East had a lot of invaders since-

1881
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:19,840
... and was able to still barely at times-

1882
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:23,880
... survive the invaders, so...
And some of that could be luck. Some of it

1883
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:27,837
could be about the nature
of the invaders and the, the

1884
02:01:27,920 --> 02:01:30,720
effectiveness of their military,
all that kind of stuff.

1885
02:01:30,820 --> 02:01:33,429
- By the way, it worked in the other
direction, too. So if you have,

1886
02:01:33,512 --> 02:01:36,562
like, Persians or Arabs coming
into Asia Minor from the East,

1887
02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:40,090
they usually can't cross over
into your Balkan provinces.

1888
02:01:40,500 --> 02:01:44,077
- Mm-hmm. Right. - So you can fall
back on one side or the other side.

1889
02:01:44,160 --> 02:01:48,110
They... If you fortified Constantinople
so that it's an impregnable bunker,

1890
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:52,377
which it was, right? So you're
holding your command center in

1891
02:01:52,460 --> 02:01:56,397
Constantinople. You can alternate
between your European or your Asian

1892
02:01:56,480 --> 02:01:58,248
provinces, depending
on where the trouble is.

1893
02:01:58,332 --> 02:02:00,017
You can call in reinforcements from either

1894
02:02:00,100 --> 02:02:04,007
side. So the East does have that kind
of advantage. This is not the reason

1895
02:02:04,090 --> 02:02:07,990
why it survives for as long as it does,
though it is a reason. You know, also,

1896
02:02:08,260 --> 02:02:12,030
they acquire flamethrowers at some
point, which-... those help, too.

1897
02:02:12,300 --> 02:02:16,217
Um, right? Ultimately, I think it's
the decision made by local communities

1898
02:02:16,300 --> 02:02:19,777
to stick with the Roman state,
like, ultimately. Like, they're

1899
02:02:19,860 --> 02:02:24,060
not going to actively side with invaders.

1900
02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:28,897
And when the trouble passes,
they restore ties with Constantinople

1901
02:02:28,980 --> 02:02:31,800
immediately. Like,
this is their natural political home.

1902
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:35,500
And, and that's the question that
I'm really trying to answer, like,

1903
02:02:35,583 --> 02:02:36,633
why does that happen?

1904
02:02:36,960 --> 02:02:40,817
- You know, we should say, just like we've
articulated multiple times, that it, the

1905
02:02:40,900 --> 02:02:42,340
Roman Empire survives-

1906
02:02:43,810 --> 02:02:48,509
So it's not like the Roman Empire
collapsed and another Byzantine Empire

1907
02:02:48,592 --> 02:02:53,087
was born. Really, there is a shift
that happens, and part of that

1908
02:02:53,170 --> 02:02:54,950
shift is because of Constantine,

1909
02:02:55,870 --> 02:02:59,387
right? It's not just about where
the capital is, but I'm sure that

1910
02:02:59,470 --> 02:03:04,690
there's just a general move towards
that direction from the West to the East.

1911
02:03:05,170 --> 02:03:05,347
- Yeah, yeah.

1912
02:03:05,430 --> 02:03:10,443
- And, and that in many ways,
you know, weak emperors and the West,

1913
02:03:10,527 --> 02:03:11,820
the weak leaders,

1914
02:03:12,890 --> 02:03:16,760
The structure of government,
all these kinds of elements put together-

1915
02:03:16,870 --> 02:03:20,270
... maybe demographic shifts
and declines that have to do

1916
02:03:20,410 --> 02:03:24,090
with the fact that the center
of the empire has moved.

1917
02:03:24,730 --> 02:03:25,507
- That's right.

1918
02:03:25,590 --> 02:03:30,847
- And so ultimately-... it's not that
the West Roman Empire collapsed, it is

1919
02:03:30,930 --> 02:03:34,757
that the center of the
Roman Empire shifted.

1920
02:03:34,840 --> 02:03:38,110
And because of that,
the historic West collapsed.

1921
02:03:38,430 --> 02:03:43,053
- It's quite striking.
So for example, already by,

1922
02:03:43,136 --> 02:03:46,387
like in the 430s, Constantinople is

1923
02:03:46,470 --> 02:03:50,387
basically codifying Roman
law for the West. So Roman

1924
02:03:50,470 --> 02:03:54,147
law in Latin is codified
in Constantinople, and then sent

1925
02:03:54,230 --> 02:03:56,380
to the West as, "Oh,
here's your law code."

1926
02:03:57,010 --> 02:04:00,860
And this is in the 430s, so after the
alleged division between the two, which

1927
02:04:00,950 --> 02:04:04,680
like I said, is kind of loose.
It's not hard and fast. In the

1928
02:04:04,810 --> 02:04:09,434
6th century, it is the East that
reconquers part of the West under

1929
02:04:09,517 --> 02:04:10,807
Justinian. - Mm-hmm.

1930
02:04:10,890 --> 02:04:14,707
- And not only that, he also
recodifies Roman law on a much bigger

1931
02:04:14,790 --> 02:04:18,450
scale, and then that law becomes Western

1932
02:04:18,550 --> 02:04:22,407
law. So in a certain sense,
Roman law as we know

1933
02:04:22,490 --> 02:04:26,250
it comes from Constantinople.
It doesn't come from ancient Rome. I mean,

1934
02:04:26,410 --> 02:04:29,483
ultimately it comes from ancient Rome,
but we don't have those versions of it.

1935
02:04:29,567 --> 02:04:34,067
We have the East Roman
versions of it. It is East

1936
02:04:34,150 --> 02:04:37,787
Rome that reconquers Rome.
This is a funny inversion, you know,

1937
02:04:37,870 --> 02:04:41,727
because Constantinople is situated
in a province, Thrace, which always was

1938
02:04:41,810 --> 02:04:43,260
sort of considered backwards,

1939
02:04:43,790 --> 02:04:47,607
right? In the time of, like, the early
Caesars, if you were in Rome and you

1940
02:04:47,690 --> 02:04:50,645
thought, you know, Thrace,
it was like, "Ugh." It's like, you know,

1941
02:04:50,728 --> 02:04:51,678
some sort of, yeah,

1942
02:04:51,810 --> 02:04:55,800
armpit of the Roman Empire or something,
you know? But by Justinian's time,

1943
02:04:55,920 --> 02:04:59,667
it's complete inversion. Like, the capital
of the Roman world, the heart of it

1944
02:04:59,750 --> 02:05:04,970
is there, and Rome is this kind
of backwater provincial city in Italy,

1945
02:05:05,790 --> 02:05:07,621
you know, that you've just
liberated from the Goths,

1946
02:05:07,705 --> 02:05:09,687
and it's kind of in ruins.
There are wolves roaming the

1947
02:05:09,770 --> 02:05:13,710
streets of the Forum.
So this is a complete, you know,

1948
02:05:13,830 --> 02:05:17,470
overhaul of the centers of power.
It's turned inside out almost.

1949
02:05:18,110 --> 02:05:21,090
- And I think it's fair to say
that the reason the East...

1950
02:05:22,390 --> 02:05:26,267
Part of the reason the East lasted
as long as it did is the topic that we've

1951
02:05:26,350 --> 02:05:28,550
mentioned, which is the
structure of government.

1952
02:05:28,633 --> 02:05:30,227
So can we just zoom out once again

1953
02:05:30,310 --> 02:05:34,440
and explain the key ways the government
functioned in the East Roman Empire,

1954
02:05:35,290 --> 02:05:37,930
and how it evolved over
the lifetime of the empire?

1955
02:05:38,710 --> 02:05:42,100
- Very broadly speaking,
there's civilian and military,

1956
02:05:42,850 --> 02:05:44,933
right? And you might
actually add the church.

1957
02:05:45,017 --> 02:05:46,707
It's entirely plausible to treat the

1958
02:05:46,790 --> 02:05:50,750
church as a kind of government
institution at this time.

1959
02:05:51,170 --> 02:05:55,090
But let's just stick
with military and civilian.

1960
02:05:55,210 --> 02:05:59,067
the military is pretty straightforward,
would be recognizable to any student

1961
02:05:59,150 --> 02:06:03,490
of military history.
This is how you recruit, organize, equip,

1962
02:06:04,450 --> 02:06:11,450
pay, and lead soldiers.
And the East Roman state tends to have a

1963
02:06:12,370 --> 02:06:14,950
larger military, at least paper strength.

1964
02:06:15,750 --> 02:06:18,738
Active is a different matter. Like, how
many soldiers you take on a campaign is

1965
02:06:18,821 --> 02:06:19,771
a different matter,

1966
02:06:19,990 --> 02:06:24,190
but how many soldiers you maintain, like,
in the provinces generally, right, is a...

1967
02:06:24,630 --> 02:06:31,630
It tends to be on the large side for a
medieval society, right? So it compares

1968
02:06:32,710 --> 02:06:36,517
favorably to, say, the Caliphate
later on, which is a much

1969
02:06:36,600 --> 02:06:43,600
more massive territorial entity. So
the military is that. It can have anywhere

1970
02:06:44,410 --> 02:06:51,410
between 100,000 at a minimum, at a low
point, up to maybe about 250,000 at a high

1971
02:06:52,650 --> 02:06:56,330
point, depending on the period.
It's a lot of people. It's a lot of men.

1972
02:06:57,370 --> 02:07:00,847
Factor in their families, right?
These are also, like, part of the

1973
02:07:00,930 --> 02:07:05,050
whole, you know, military
economic complex, if you will.

1974
02:07:05,470 --> 02:07:08,307
- And they're career military,
so, like, this is their job.

1975
02:07:08,390 --> 02:07:13,067
- Yep, yes. - And is the military
for most of the history of the East Roman

1976
02:07:13,150 --> 02:07:14,830
Empire defensive military?

1977
02:07:16,150 --> 02:07:19,870
- Mostly, but not always. - Yeah.
And we'll talk about Justinian.

1978
02:07:20,170 --> 02:07:23,298
- Sure. Um, and so then you
have the civilian administration.

1979
02:07:23,381 --> 02:07:24,927
Civilian administration does a number of

1980
02:07:25,010 --> 02:07:29,950
things. Principally, it is to find
the funds to pay for this army,

1981
02:07:30,830 --> 02:07:34,550
which is the single largest
expense on the state budget,

1982
02:07:34,750 --> 02:07:37,907
right? And so in order
to find those funds, it has

1983
02:07:37,990 --> 02:07:41,907
to have census of the assets, and it has

1984
02:07:41,990 --> 02:07:45,970
to be able to tax them, and there are
lots of different ways of doing that. So

1985
02:07:46,170 --> 02:07:50,030
the civilian administration
has a number of tax bureaus,

1986
02:07:51,090 --> 02:07:55,047
records keeping this sort of thing,
also a legal branch for

1987
02:07:55,130 --> 02:07:58,927
resolving disputes with the imperial fisc.
Okay. But the civilian

1988
02:07:59,010 --> 02:08:02,547
administration does a number of other
things, too. For example, the whole legal

1989
02:08:02,630 --> 02:08:08,260
regulation of the, of the empire,
the courts, judges, courts of appeal,

1990
02:08:09,200 --> 02:08:13,127
Or also issuing laws,
keeping records, all,

1991
02:08:13,210 --> 02:08:17,087
all of this. And those
are the main bureaus that

1992
02:08:17,170 --> 02:08:20,770
have to do with the
subjects of the empire.

1993
02:08:21,230 --> 02:08:25,550
The emperors obviously maintain bureaus
that are for things like diplomacy,

1994
02:08:26,390 --> 02:08:28,290
right, or running the palace staff,

1995
02:08:29,250 --> 02:08:32,130
Because the palace is a huge
institution, right, with...

1996
02:08:33,320 --> 02:08:37,187
And then there are a number
of endowments that, you know, major

1997
02:08:37,270 --> 02:08:41,047
churches, Hagia Sophia, for example,
has hundreds of staff, clergy to, you

1998
02:08:41,130 --> 02:08:44,547
know, readers to whatever, and so
they need to be paid, and so you need

1999
02:08:44,630 --> 02:08:48,067
endowments. The imperial household,
it has expenses, so it needs

2000
02:08:48,150 --> 02:08:51,890
endowments, right? So there's
a lot of land that's earmarked

2001
02:08:52,540 --> 02:08:56,257
For these kinds of expenses,
that requires administration. So,

2002
02:08:56,340 --> 02:08:58,777
this multiplies, right?
I mean, go on and on and on and on.

2003
02:08:58,860 --> 02:09:03,747
- And I'm sure the tax code
is not a simple flat tax. It's...

2004
02:09:03,830 --> 02:09:07,660
... probably incredibly complicated.
So it's just like in the United States,

2005
02:09:08,940 --> 02:09:12,990
it feels like the majority of the United
States is basically lawyers and the IRS.

2006
02:09:14,880 --> 02:09:18,500
That's maybe 98%, I think, is lawyers.

2007
02:09:18,600 --> 02:09:20,227
- Lawyers. - I'm not
sure it's scientifically-

2008
02:09:20,310 --> 02:09:23,213
- I thought they shrunk the IRS down
now to a size that it can't, like,

2009
02:09:23,297 --> 02:09:25,597
actually do anything.
- They shrunk it down...

2010
02:09:25,780 --> 02:09:27,347
- I thought it was just...
-... to just 90% now.

2011
02:09:27,430 --> 02:09:28,263
- 90, just 90.

2012
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:33,960
- No. I think there
is something—this is another,

2013
02:09:34,320 --> 02:09:37,997
Conversation about human nature
and about the, the nature of

2014
02:09:38,080 --> 02:09:40,130
governments, but there's something about,

2015
02:09:40,860 --> 02:09:45,740
like I think it's impossible to have an
IRS-type organization that doesn't grow.

2016
02:09:47,180 --> 02:09:53,370
I think maybe with good intentions
because you can't— You have to, like...

2017
02:09:53,580 --> 02:09:57,400
... everybody always comes to you,
"Well, I don't... Here's my special

2018
02:09:57,520 --> 02:09:59,980
case. I want my tax to be lower."

2019
02:10:01,180 --> 02:10:04,367
And they kind of add another line.
"All right, if you have...

2020
02:10:04,450 --> 02:10:06,637
... purple hair, you..."

2021
02:10:06,720 --> 02:10:10,378
... the tax decrease. And so you
keep adding, and then of course,

2022
02:10:10,461 --> 02:10:11,440
the more you add,

2023
02:10:12,460 --> 02:10:16,200
the more opaque the thing becomes,
therefore corruption seeps in

2024
02:10:16,340 --> 02:10:19,917
or co- you know, maybe not
like official corruption, but...

2025
02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:23,837
... corruption light,
and then that tax code grows, and

2026
02:10:23,920 --> 02:10:26,507
then all of a sudden you have
these big institutions that then-

2027
02:10:26,590 --> 02:10:30,257
... encourage corruption, and then
there's a bureaucracy, and there's a

2028
02:10:30,340 --> 02:10:32,657
momentum, and this is just how humans are.

2029
02:10:32,740 --> 02:10:35,524
- Yes. So this happens
in East Roman society too.

2030
02:10:35,607 --> 02:10:37,480
I'll give you some examples. So,

2031
02:10:38,960 --> 02:10:42,900
there's not a tax code as such,
but what you-- The way it

2032
02:10:43,000 --> 02:10:45,240
operates is through basically exemptions.

2033
02:10:46,290 --> 02:10:50,217
So you petition for an exemption.
You might be

2034
02:10:50,300 --> 02:10:53,691
a monastery, you might be a wealthy la-
You might be someone well-connected to

2035
02:10:53,775 --> 02:10:54,197
the court.

2036
02:10:54,280 --> 02:10:58,180
You might be a struggling provincial
village, and you petition the emperor or

2037
02:10:58,300 --> 02:11:01,205
some official, and you say, "Hey,
we know we had a bad season," or,

2038
02:11:01,288 --> 02:11:04,584
"The barbarians came through and they
took all of our... We can't pay the taxes.

2039
02:11:04,668 --> 02:11:06,068
Could we have an exemption?"

2040
02:11:06,880 --> 02:11:10,740
And emperors often are granting
these exemptions for very

2041
02:11:10,840 --> 02:11:14,400
specific things, like maybe for this
year or for that tax or whatever.

2042
02:11:15,000 --> 02:11:17,790
The problem is that the emperors
are discovering every once in a while

2043
02:11:17,874 --> 02:11:18,897
that their officials are,

2044
02:11:18,980 --> 02:11:22,116
are granting these exemptions sort
of on their own. So every once in a while,

2045
02:11:22,199 --> 02:11:26,200
the emperors have to, like,
clear house when they have to, like,

2046
02:11:26,580 --> 02:11:30,360
cancel all of these exemptions
and start the whole process again. But,

2047
02:11:30,740 --> 02:11:32,928
later on, when-- once we
start to have documentation,

2048
02:11:33,011 --> 02:11:38,777
like maybe in the 11th century,
we see that every little, well, not every,

2049
02:11:38,860 --> 02:11:41,635
but we have all these monasteries, these
little villages, these high officials,

2050
02:11:41,718 --> 02:11:42,477
and they all have these

2051
02:11:42,560 --> 02:11:45,600
documents that give them exemption
from this or that or the other thing,

2052
02:11:45,683 --> 02:11:48,620
and it gets so complicated
and that's how it works.

2053
02:11:49,780 --> 02:11:53,617
- Uh, but it is the engine of society
that makes the whole thing work 'cause you

2054
02:11:53,700 --> 02:11:54,533
have to fund--

2055
02:11:55,280 --> 02:11:58,603
I mean, there's infrastructure projects,
but you have to also fund the army,

2056
02:11:58,686 --> 02:12:03,220
and the army's necessary to defend
against all the military incursions.

2057
02:12:03,660 --> 02:12:07,640
A good fraction of the bureaucracy
seemed to have been eunuchs,

2058
02:12:07,820 --> 02:12:11,420
which are castrated men. Can you
explain why this was a prominent thing?

2059
02:12:11,980 --> 02:12:15,280
- The eunuchs are part of the
household staff of the emperor.

2060
02:12:16,680 --> 02:12:19,623
So that would be like, what would it be?
The West Wing of the White House

2061
02:12:19,706 --> 02:12:25,120
or something like this. So they are
the people who handle the imperial person,

2062
02:12:25,920 --> 02:12:29,220
the bedchamber,
the organization of palace life,

2063
02:12:29,780 --> 02:12:33,920
things like banquets, you know,
these kinds of things, the wardrobe.

2064
02:12:34,720 --> 02:12:38,360
And why are they important?
So for starters, if you're, like,

2065
02:12:38,820 --> 02:12:42,717
physically with the emperor
all day, right? Like,

2066
02:12:42,800 --> 02:12:44,741
you're handling the meetings,
you're... Right?

2067
02:12:44,824 --> 02:12:46,697
People can come to you
and say, "Hey, I need

2068
02:12:46,780 --> 02:12:50,557
you to put in a good word
for whatever," right? So they can

2069
02:12:50,640 --> 02:12:54,517
get things done. So you bribe them,
they get things done. So they're

2070
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:57,907
very useful in this way. They're
also kind of hated for that reason.

2071
02:12:57,990 --> 02:13:01,880
Right? But they're also kind of there
to be hated. In other words, they

2072
02:13:02,060 --> 02:13:05,977
soak up a lot of the frustration
that people sometimes feel when

2073
02:13:06,060 --> 02:13:10,300
they're not getting, you know,
what they want from the court.

2074
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:14,190
Okay. That's one thing. Here's
the other thing that's more interesting.

2075
02:13:15,760 --> 02:13:19,700
How do you as an emperor make sure
that your bureaucracy doesn't displace

2076
02:13:19,820 --> 02:13:23,820
you? Like, if the bureaucracy is handling
all the matters of running the empire,

2077
02:13:23,960 --> 02:13:29,577
what do we need you for? Right? Like, the
bureaucracy can develop rules of its own-

2078
02:13:29,660 --> 02:13:33,397
... for solving all
the problems for dealing with

2079
02:13:33,480 --> 02:13:36,720
petitions and exemptions and whatever.
Like, they can do it. So

2080
02:13:37,220 --> 02:13:41,057
where's your power exactly?
So what the emperors did not want is to

2081
02:13:41,140 --> 02:13:44,697
be displaced or overshadowed
by these kinds of more

2082
02:13:44,780 --> 02:13:48,060
impersonal institutions.
And so they would often set up, like,

2083
02:13:48,840 --> 02:13:51,940
So this could be a bit confusing.

2084
02:13:52,980 --> 02:13:56,740
So eunuchs were perfect
for this reason because often

2085
02:13:56,980 --> 02:14:00,737
their origin was from outside the empire,
or they were former slaves. They

2086
02:14:00,820 --> 02:14:03,960
weren't connected to, like,
networks of powerful families.

2087
02:14:04,060 --> 02:14:07,637
So you knew that they would
generally be loyal to you because they

2088
02:14:07,720 --> 02:14:11,690
depended entirely on you, the emperor,
for their position and their power.

2089
02:14:12,320 --> 02:14:16,237
And what you would sometimes do is you'd
say, "Okay, I'm putting you in charge of,

2090
02:14:16,320 --> 02:14:19,670
like, this army." Literally,
like putting you in charge of an army,

2091
02:14:20,360 --> 02:14:23,640
just so that you can
counterbalance the kind of

2092
02:14:24,120 --> 02:14:28,007
networks of established generals,
and you'll have, like, a eunuch

2093
02:14:28,090 --> 02:14:31,917
from my wardrobe. You know,
I'm putting him in charge. And so this

2094
02:14:32,000 --> 02:14:35,897
kind of shook things up a little
bit so that people who were part of a

2095
02:14:35,980 --> 02:14:39,897
system or a network could never fully
count that that could get them all

2096
02:14:39,980 --> 02:14:43,283
the power that they wanted. They now have
to answer to this eunuch from the wardrobe

2097
02:14:43,366 --> 02:14:47,297
who's, like, outside of their system.
And sometimes these eunuchs were extremely

2098
02:14:47,380 --> 02:14:50,937
competent like Narses,
Justinian's general, who

2099
02:14:51,020 --> 02:14:54,637
defeated the Goths in Italy in this
massive battle. Like, this guy was a total

2100
02:14:54,720 --> 02:14:58,597
hardass. And he was this little old man.
He was very old, and he was tiny, and he

2101
02:14:58,680 --> 02:15:04,317
was a eunuch, and the Goths laughed
at him, but he had the last laugh, right?

2102
02:15:04,400 --> 02:15:08,297
- Is there some component to them
being eunuchs, so they can't

2103
02:15:08,380 --> 02:15:09,717
propagate the bloodline?

2104
02:15:09,800 --> 02:15:12,526
- Yeah. They can't have their own
family, so they can't be, like,

2105
02:15:12,609 --> 02:15:13,697
looking out for their own

2106
02:15:13,780 --> 02:15:19,660
offspring. They're kind of isolated
individuals who depend entirely on

2107
02:15:19,743 --> 02:15:26,120
your favor. - Is it known whether
the castration is almost always by force?

2108
02:15:26,610 --> 02:15:30,417
- There are eunuchs in society generally.
They're often bishops. They're appointed

2109
02:15:30,500 --> 02:15:32,597
Patriarch of Constantinople
sometimes. They're-

2110
02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:36,417
... they're in all kinds
of positions. Many of them are

2111
02:15:36,500 --> 02:15:41,737
children who are enslaved
and castrated against their will.

2112
02:15:41,820 --> 02:15:45,495
Sometimes, however, they are castrated
very much according to the will of

2113
02:15:45,578 --> 02:15:50,217
their families. Um,
in some parts of, like in

2114
02:15:50,300 --> 02:15:53,950
Caucasia, there were some regions
that were famous for producing eunuchs,

2115
02:15:54,220 --> 02:15:55,940
also in, in Persia and so forth.

2116
02:15:56,970 --> 02:16:00,340
But also, we are pretty sure
that this happened within the empire,

2117
02:16:00,880 --> 02:16:02,517
because there were some
families that, like,

2118
02:16:02,600 --> 02:16:04,697
really wanted to place
a eunuch at the court.

2119
02:16:04,780 --> 02:16:07,897
Um, so from Paphlagonia, there
were a number of... This is in

2120
02:16:07,980 --> 02:16:14,980
northern Asia Minor. And so they would...
It was almost like a family strategy.

2121
02:16:15,760 --> 02:16:18,860
- I mean, it's fascinating.
It's fascinating that they had so,

2122
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:24,787
So much representation
in the inner circles-

2123
02:16:24,870 --> 02:16:28,220
... of the emperor,
and therefore had real influence.

2124
02:16:28,340 --> 02:16:32,257
- Oh, yeah. But this was the case always,
even in Rome, like in the Julio-Claudians

2125
02:16:32,340 --> 02:16:32,947
under-

2126
02:16:33,030 --> 02:16:36,980
... you know, the first Caesars. There
are all these powerful eunuchs, and the,

2127
02:16:37,760 --> 02:16:39,622
the senatorial class
always hates them. I mean,

2128
02:16:39,706 --> 02:16:41,656
it's just the s- it's the same dynamic.

2129
02:16:42,180 --> 02:16:45,717
- Uh, one of the interesting things
you've said as an aside in one of the many

2130
02:16:45,800 --> 02:16:51,200
podcasts that I listened with you is you
said that there were no isolated people,

2131
02:16:52,820 --> 02:16:56,520
You know, people that are
disconnected from the empire,

2132
02:16:57,780 --> 02:17:01,537
Maybe who, for example, don't know
about the taxes or just don't feel

2133
02:17:01,620 --> 02:17:05,310
integrated into the system. I mean,
that's really interesting to me, that

2134
02:17:06,180 --> 02:17:12,200
there's so much connectivity, there's so
much cohesion-... as an entire peoples.

2135
02:17:12,860 --> 02:17:16,477
- These people do not exist,
these isolated peasants. This is a

2136
02:17:16,560 --> 02:17:20,510
myth that I, one day I'm going
to write a chapter about this

2137
02:17:20,680 --> 02:17:23,614
because it's this idea that you
occasionally encounter, well,

2138
02:17:23,697 --> 02:17:24,357
actually quite

2139
02:17:24,440 --> 02:17:28,277
often in the scholarship, that there
are these sort of rural communities out

2140
02:17:28,360 --> 02:17:32,110
there somewhere that don't
know what's going on in

2141
02:17:32,200 --> 02:17:36,177
Constantinople. They might not know,
even know who the emperor is. They're cut

2142
02:17:36,260 --> 02:17:40,157
off. Maybe a tax official
will show up every once in a

2143
02:17:40,240 --> 02:17:43,877
while, maybe not, and they just
live their lives on their own,

2144
02:17:43,960 --> 02:17:47,880
unaffected by the, say, state,
because the medieval state,

2145
02:17:48,020 --> 02:17:51,200
we suspect, is you know, always

2146
02:17:51,540 --> 02:17:55,277
powerless and can't, you know,
affect people's lives. There's

2147
02:17:55,360 --> 02:17:59,160
no proof for these communities
at all. At most, you

2148
02:17:59,320 --> 02:18:03,310
might try to find some,
like, actual hermits, like,

2149
02:18:03,420 --> 02:18:08,640
actual Christian ascetic hermits who
try to go out and find this situation,

2150
02:18:09,520 --> 02:18:13,237
and sometimes they're described in the
text as, like, oh, so, so-and-so went so

2151
02:18:13,320 --> 02:18:17,240
far out into the mountains that,
like, not even the tax census people

2152
02:18:17,520 --> 02:18:20,977
showed up there, which tells you how
they think about what it means to be

2153
02:18:21,060 --> 02:18:24,920
isolated, right? So this is not a...
This is a state in which every

2154
02:18:25,040 --> 02:18:28,657
arable, you know, piece of arable
land has been censused for

2155
02:18:28,740 --> 02:18:32,380
centuries. It's not like you
can hide a village, right?

2156
02:18:32,940 --> 02:18:36,857
And the, the taxation process
is not like, what, they visit

2157
02:18:36,940 --> 02:18:40,697
once a year, give us some coin, and we'll
leave. It's actually more like three

2158
02:18:40,780 --> 02:18:44,720
times a year.
And the taxes is not just coin and

2159
02:18:45,100 --> 02:18:48,737
maybe a payment in kind or something, but
it's, it's a whole bunch of things like

2160
02:18:48,820 --> 02:18:52,680
services and recruits and all...
You're right. And once you

2161
02:18:52,780 --> 02:18:56,860
start adding all of these things up,
it creates a very dense,

2162
02:18:57,740 --> 02:19:02,097
Institutional matrix in which
all communities are enmeshed.

2163
02:19:02,180 --> 02:19:06,640
They can't get out of it. Also,
they, they have a church, don't they?

2164
02:19:07,570 --> 02:19:09,430
And if they have a church,
they have the calendar.

2165
02:19:09,513 --> 02:19:11,857
And of course they have
the calendar because...

2166
02:19:11,940 --> 02:19:15,820
So, like, how do they
organize time and space and

2167
02:19:15,960 --> 02:19:18,475
boundaries and all of these things?
No, this is all state institutions.

2168
02:19:18,559 --> 02:19:23,257
How do they pay for anything? They have
coins. Coins are everywhere. So I think

2169
02:19:23,340 --> 02:19:27,100
that these institutions
structured the way that everyone,

2170
02:19:27,360 --> 02:19:31,200
even in village communities, even
in the most isolated ones, supposedly,

2171
02:19:31,760 --> 02:19:35,417
how they thought about things
like time and space and value and

2172
02:19:35,500 --> 02:19:39,480
relations and power
and kinship and so forth.

2173
02:19:39,860 --> 02:19:43,910
- So what you're saying is taxation is
the thing that brings the empire together.

2174
02:19:44,700 --> 02:19:46,000
- It is, principally, yes.

2175
02:19:46,420 --> 02:19:50,017
- I mean, it's-... it's true, right?
This is, like, this is how you know.

2176
02:19:50,100 --> 02:19:53,480
- Yeah. But on top of that is
layered things like the economy,

2177
02:19:53,740 --> 02:19:55,960
coins, right? But also there's the church.

2178
02:19:56,600 --> 02:19:59,057
- Yeah, and the church is important,
just like you said.

2179
02:19:59,140 --> 02:20:00,997
Yeah. And there's churches
throughout the empire.

2180
02:20:01,080 --> 02:20:04,597
- Yes, and they have sermons,
and they pray for the

2181
02:20:04,680 --> 02:20:08,980
emperor after this service. No,
there are no isolated communities.

2182
02:20:09,500 --> 02:20:13,060
- So one of the things I briefly
mentioned just would be nice to

2183
02:20:13,980 --> 02:20:17,400
elaborate on is this term
of monarchic republic.

2184
02:20:18,640 --> 02:20:24,860
So we've been throwing around words
like kingdom and republic and empire and,

2185
02:20:25,740 --> 02:20:32,740
Monarchy. So what is the actual...
What's a good applicable term to what this

2186
02:20:33,360 --> 02:20:35,320
thing is-... the East Roman Empire?

2187
02:20:35,660 --> 02:20:39,470
- That's an excellent question,
and I'm glad you flagged that

2188
02:20:40,040 --> 02:20:41,818
because we call it
conventionally Byzantine Empire,

2189
02:20:41,902 --> 02:20:46,197
and it's neither of those things really.
We talked about Byzantine.

2190
02:20:46,280 --> 02:20:52,220
Now, empire's a bit of a problem because
first of all, There's no term in Greek,

2191
02:20:53,600 --> 02:20:58,040
In the Greek that they use at this period
that corresponds to our notion of empire.

2192
02:20:59,100 --> 02:21:02,977
It's not part of the official terms. It's
not even... They didn't even have a term

2193
02:21:03,060 --> 02:21:07,110
for it. You could have... There's some
terms that might mean something like state

2194
02:21:07,280 --> 02:21:13,757
Arche maybe or kratos. But for the most
part, it's either basileia, which we might

2195
02:21:13,840 --> 02:21:17,980
translate as monarchy
or politeia, which is polity.

2196
02:21:18,900 --> 02:21:24,280
And politeia in Greek, polity, is a Greek
translation of Latin res publica.

2197
02:21:24,620 --> 02:21:28,160
Res publica doesn't mean republic
the way we mean it for the Romans,

2198
02:21:28,400 --> 02:21:30,926
like a non-monarchical regime,
right? That's how we mean, like,

2199
02:21:31,009 --> 02:21:32,177
the American Republic or, you

2200
02:21:32,260 --> 02:21:35,737
know. That's a usage that came
in later, like during the

2201
02:21:35,820 --> 02:21:39,657
Enlightenment. In Latin,
a res publica is the

2202
02:21:39,740 --> 02:21:43,417
common affairs, the common
interest of a people who are

2203
02:21:43,500 --> 02:21:47,167
constituted as a political community,
regardless of the type of

2204
02:21:47,250 --> 02:21:50,917
regime that they have. Like even
Cicero could imagine the Roman res

2205
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:54,360
publica governed by a king
or by a senate or by a

2206
02:21:54,500 --> 02:21:58,277
democracy. And they continue
to use that term. We don't use it

2207
02:21:58,360 --> 02:22:01,322
according to Roman norms.
We use it according to modern norms,

2208
02:22:01,406 --> 02:22:02,306
the term republic.

2209
02:22:03,460 --> 02:22:07,357
So they continue to call it a res
publica or a polity under the emperors

2210
02:22:07,440 --> 02:22:11,150
as well, right?
And it was understood that the role of the

2211
02:22:11,280 --> 02:22:14,977
emperor, whether he's Caesar
or basileus or whatever, whatever

2212
02:22:15,060 --> 02:22:18,860
language, was to serve the polity.
They keep saying this.

2213
02:22:19,540 --> 02:22:23,560
So the terms that occur
in the sources most commonly are

2214
02:22:24,380 --> 02:22:28,320
basileia of the Romans,
polity of the Romans, or Romania,

2215
02:22:28,500 --> 02:22:33,740
which is the proper name
of this state. Not empire.

2216
02:22:33,900 --> 02:22:39,120
Now, empire.
Empire in modern English commonly,

2217
02:22:39,860 --> 02:22:43,717
an empire is a state that's created
when one group conquers a bunch of

2218
02:22:43,800 --> 02:22:46,003
others and rules them.
It could be an ethnic group.

2219
02:22:46,086 --> 02:22:47,657
It could be an ethnoreligious group.

2220
02:22:47,740 --> 02:22:51,517
It could be a political group, whatever.
But there's an act of conquest, and

2221
02:22:51,600 --> 02:22:54,450
results in a state where one
group is ruling over others.

2222
02:22:55,200 --> 02:22:57,426
That's not how Romania
is actually constituted.

2223
02:22:57,509 --> 02:22:59,137
We've talked about this. It's, for

2224
02:22:59,220 --> 02:23:02,957
the most part, all Roman
citizens ruling like Roman

2225
02:23:03,040 --> 02:23:06,380
subjects ruling themselves,
through their own government.

2226
02:23:07,300 --> 02:23:10,980
So it's not an empire strictly
speaking. Now, occasionally,

2227
02:23:11,580 --> 02:23:14,340
they will conquer other people,
right? We talked about the warfare.

2228
02:23:14,424 --> 02:23:17,774
Sometimes it's not just defensive.
Sometimes it's offensive, right?

2229
02:23:17,960 --> 02:23:21,777
In that case, you do
establish a- an imperial

2230
02:23:21,860 --> 02:23:25,697
relationship. Like we, the Romans,
are ruling over this other group. Could

2231
02:23:25,780 --> 02:23:29,680
be Slavs, it could be Bulgarians
for a while, it could be whatever. Or,

2232
02:23:29,780 --> 02:23:34,460
even some Muslims in northern Syria
for a while in the 11th century,

2233
02:23:35,480 --> 02:23:36,930
who-- and you are not Romans.

2234
02:23:37,940 --> 02:23:39,999
And that's an imperial relationship.
The question is,

2235
02:23:40,082 --> 02:23:41,777
how many of these
imperial relationships do

2236
02:23:41,860 --> 02:23:45,697
you need to decide that, well,
we've reached a tipping point, and

2237
02:23:45,780 --> 02:23:49,657
now we're just gonna call the whole
thing an empire? Personally, I don't

2238
02:23:49,740 --> 02:23:53,680
think we ever reach that point.
I mean, all states, even today,

2239
02:23:53,820 --> 02:23:55,120
have like minorities.

2240
02:23:56,020 --> 02:23:59,441
Some of them are part of that state
because they were conquered once upon

2241
02:23:59,524 --> 02:24:00,357
a time.

2242
02:24:00,720 --> 02:24:05,420
But we don't call those states empires
necessarily. Even though... Like,

2243
02:24:06,800 --> 02:24:10,340
look at the United Kingdom.
Well, Wales was conquered.

2244
02:24:11,240 --> 02:24:14,690
And, you know, the Welsh have
their own identity, their own language.

2245
02:24:15,560 --> 02:24:20,300
I don't know that you would call
that now an imperial relationship.

2246
02:24:21,140 --> 02:24:22,580
Maybe. I don't know.

2247
02:24:22,800 --> 02:24:26,777
- I think there's also a synonymous
use of the word empire that refers to

2248
02:24:26,860 --> 02:24:29,477
the power that the state has-

2249
02:24:29,560 --> 02:24:33,000
... in the global context
geopolitically. So sometimes

2250
02:24:33,120 --> 02:24:36,562
empire is used synonymously
with superpower,

2251
02:24:36,646 --> 02:24:39,127
meaning it's one of the primary-

2252
02:24:39,210 --> 02:24:42,977
... nations in the world, and it
doesn't necessarily have to do with the

2253
02:24:43,060 --> 02:24:46,420
imperial nature of its history.

2254
02:24:47,080 --> 02:24:50,680
- That's true. - Hence the sort
of American empire, US empire.

2255
02:24:50,840 --> 02:24:54,557
- Yes. Though you would never characterize
the American political regime as an

2256
02:24:54,640 --> 02:25:01,020
imperial one insofar as it does not
have an emperor, for example. But anyway,

2257
02:25:02,520 --> 02:25:06,257
yes. The problem is that in my field,
we use the term empire

2258
02:25:06,340 --> 02:25:09,997
conventionally, even when
what you just described is

2259
02:25:10,080 --> 02:25:13,937
clearly not happening, like even
toward the end. It's not a major world

2260
02:25:14,020 --> 02:25:17,957
power. It, like, has a few islands
in the Peloponnese, and, but we call it

2261
02:25:18,040 --> 02:25:20,817
empire and the emperor, and it's
like, it's completely ridiculous.

2262
02:25:20,900 --> 02:25:24,940
There's not even a term in their
language for that sort of thing.

2263
02:25:25,900 --> 02:25:27,845
anyway, we can call
things whatever we want,

2264
02:25:27,928 --> 02:25:29,677
just so we understand what the reality

2265
02:25:29,760 --> 02:25:33,600
is-... and what we are
using those terms to mean.

2266
02:25:33,760 --> 02:25:35,537
I think that's the important thing. Yeah.

2267
02:25:35,620 --> 02:25:41,320
- So then let's look at words which are
both fascinating, monarchic republic.

2268
02:25:41,720 --> 02:25:46,250
- Right. - Why is that a good
term for the East Roman Empire?

2269
02:25:46,720 --> 02:25:50,657
- Uh, because they understood it very
much to be a polity in the Roman sense

2270
02:25:50,740 --> 02:25:55,120
of a res publica that was governed
by a regime that was monarchical.

2271
02:25:55,500 --> 02:25:59,400
- So those two elements,
there's an emperor dude at the top,

2272
02:26:00,480 --> 02:26:03,980
and it functioned
politically like a republic.

2273
02:26:04,460 --> 02:26:07,920
- Also, the emperor was expected
to be working for the republic.

2274
02:26:08,680 --> 02:26:12,660
Like, they keep saying this. So,
like, this was their conception.

2275
02:26:13,440 --> 02:26:18,340
You don't find it, for example,
in other kinds of dynastic empires,

2276
02:26:19,220 --> 02:26:22,857
The ones that don't emerge from
within the context of an ancient

2277
02:26:22,940 --> 02:26:26,437
republic. So this is another reason
why I find this civilization so

2278
02:26:26,520 --> 02:26:28,352
fascinating, right?
I mean, we mentioned the,

2279
02:26:28,435 --> 02:26:30,197
the Greek and the Roman and the Christian

2280
02:26:30,280 --> 02:26:32,334
elements that are kind
of jostling together.

2281
02:26:32,417 --> 02:26:37,780
This is fascinating to me in part because
it's this weird combination of monarchical

2282
02:26:37,880 --> 02:26:44,300
power, like in terms of executive
institutions—... and a republican kind of

2283
02:26:44,780 --> 02:26:48,697
baseline ideology on which it
operates. Yeah, and they, they

2284
02:26:48,780 --> 02:26:50,240
sometimes come to a head.

2285
02:26:50,860 --> 02:26:54,110
- Is there at all a degree to which
it's a military dictatorship?

2286
02:26:54,600 --> 02:26:58,160
Because especially when it's
the general in the emperor's seat,

2287
02:26:58,800 --> 02:27:02,697
yes, there's a republic, yes, there's
political discussion, but the army has

2288
02:27:02,780 --> 02:27:08,137
a lot of power. So to what degree
is it a military dictatorship, as is

2289
02:27:08,220 --> 02:27:11,860
sometimes talked about when
you talk about the Roman Empire?

2290
02:27:12,610 --> 02:27:15,947
- Yeah, so Augustus' position,
for example, and that of his

2291
02:27:16,030 --> 02:27:18,876
successors is, is talked about
as a military dictatorship.

2292
02:27:18,960 --> 02:27:19,927
In other words, when

2293
02:27:20,010 --> 02:27:24,710
push comes to shove—... and the basis
of political power is the army,

2294
02:27:25,710 --> 02:27:29,087
then I suppose it's legitimate
for historians to talk

2295
02:27:29,170 --> 02:27:33,070
about a military dictatorship.
But here's why I don't think

2296
02:27:33,570 --> 02:27:37,170
the Eastern Roman Empire is a military
dictatorship. Even though, again,

2297
02:27:37,670 --> 02:27:43,590
the emperors control the armies, and the
armies themselves will often have a say

2298
02:27:44,370 --> 02:27:48,730
in who becomes emperor, like through
the civil wars that we mentioned.

2299
02:27:49,410 --> 02:27:53,250
Okay. The reason why I don't think
it's a military dictatorship is because

2300
02:27:54,210 --> 02:28:01,210
they almost never, very, very, very rarely
use the army as an instrument of social

2301
02:28:01,810 --> 02:28:02,643
control.

2302
02:28:03,250 --> 02:28:07,130
- Is that, isn't that strange to you?
Because you see that being done

2303
02:28:07,910 --> 02:28:12,650
through so much of human history.
And the fact they don't resort to that,

2304
02:28:13,470 --> 02:28:18,110
I mean, they, for 1,000 years,
that's just not a thing.

2305
02:28:18,870 --> 02:28:22,610
- As a way of keeping down
the population, you just don't see it.

2306
02:28:23,150 --> 02:28:26,060
And part of the reason for that is I don't
think the population needs to be kept

2307
02:28:26,143 --> 02:28:29,107
down. Like, this gets back to the
consensus that we were talking about.

2308
02:28:29,190 --> 02:28:33,730
The understanding is that the army
is there to protect the Roman people.

2309
02:28:34,200 --> 02:28:41,200
And is often recruited among them. And for
most of the period that I study, is like

2310
02:28:41,290 --> 02:28:44,130
lives among them. So when
the emperors have to call up the army,

2311
02:28:44,213 --> 02:28:47,887
they're literally calling up
soldiers from local villages.

2312
02:28:47,970 --> 02:28:51,370
- It's just incredible that this worked.
I guess the civil war thing

2313
02:28:52,030 --> 02:28:55,867
is, as a mechanism, is effective.
'Cause you just, throughout human

2314
02:28:55,950 --> 02:28:59,727
history, I mean, you look at even
recent history, it's just a very

2315
02:28:59,810 --> 02:29:05,050
common thing for a authoritarian figure
to use the army to suppress people.

2316
02:29:05,350 --> 02:29:09,247
- Yeah, but isn't that dangerous,
though? Look at how many modern regimes

2317
02:29:09,330 --> 02:29:14,153
tried to use their own armies against
their people who are in a moment of rising

2318
02:29:14,236 --> 02:29:19,350
up. - It doesn't last. - Well,
it's a risk. Like the Arab Spring.

2319
02:29:19,750 --> 02:29:24,330
Especially in Egypt. And you could,
you could tell for those three weeks

2320
02:29:25,410 --> 02:29:29,220
that Mubarak was trying
to decide whether he could

2321
02:29:29,310 --> 02:29:33,240
actually count on the army
to suppress the protesters or not,

2322
02:29:33,930 --> 02:29:37,827
because you never know what
they're going to do if you ask

2323
02:29:37,910 --> 02:29:43,930
them to fire on a civilian population.
It can backfire on you badly.

2324
02:29:45,090 --> 02:29:49,027
So I think that is a very
dangerous force to use, and

2325
02:29:49,110 --> 02:29:52,850
even in the context of modern regimes,
can result in a regime change.

2326
02:29:53,490 --> 02:29:57,027
- Absolutely, and there's huge wisdom
behind that, but, you know, leaders are

2327
02:29:57,110 --> 02:29:59,817
not always wise, often not wise.

2328
02:29:59,900 --> 02:30:03,267
And often maybe they start out wise,
but power corrupts them over time,

2329
02:30:03,350 --> 02:30:08,387
and so the fact that this does not happen
just over and over and over and over-

2330
02:30:08,470 --> 02:30:12,007
... in the East Roman Empire is, is,
there's just a signal there that's

2331
02:30:12,090 --> 02:30:16,190
fascinating. And I mean, this goes to
the book that you want to be working on-

2332
02:30:16,630 --> 02:30:18,730
... About why the thing lasts. So.

2333
02:30:19,070 --> 02:30:22,650
- There's one emperor who does
do that, and that's Justinian.

2334
02:30:22,810 --> 02:30:24,967
- Mm-hmm. Yeah, he gets wild.
- Right. Yeah.

2335
02:30:25,050 --> 02:30:28,287
- So let's talk about Justinian. We
have to. We have to talk about Justinian.

2336
02:30:28,370 --> 02:30:29,203
- Yes.

2337
02:30:29,330 --> 02:30:32,090
- one of the most impactful
Roman emperors in history,

2338
02:30:33,030 --> 02:30:37,430
started as a peasant,
and rose in power to become emperor.

2339
02:30:38,250 --> 02:30:42,230
He fought wars of conquest and was
very consequential and impactful.

2340
02:30:42,390 --> 02:30:47,710
- Yes. - So who was he? - All right.
So Justinian was the emperor from 527 to

2341
02:30:48,050 --> 02:30:54,390
565, so quite a long reign. He was the
nephew of the previous emperor, Justin I,

2342
02:30:55,670 --> 02:30:59,290
who was an older man, ruled for just
under a decade before Justinian.

2343
02:30:59,910 --> 02:31:03,050
And both of them came from small, poor

2344
02:31:03,750 --> 02:31:06,087
agricultural communities
in the western Balkans.

2345
02:31:06,170 --> 02:31:11,390
- We should say that Justin I ended
up in your worst 10 emperors list.

2346
02:31:11,750 --> 02:31:15,550
- Yeah, for one decision.
He's not the worst of the worst, but he,

2347
02:31:15,690 --> 02:31:19,307
he made a very, very bad call when it
came to church policy, tore the church

2348
02:31:19,390 --> 02:31:21,140
apart. He shouldn't have done that,

2349
02:31:21,750 --> 02:31:25,630
in my view. But by the way, Justinian's
an immensely complicated figure.

2350
02:31:25,770 --> 02:31:27,480
I found it impossible
to decide, first of all,

2351
02:31:27,563 --> 02:31:30,247
whether to put him on the best
emperors or the worst emperors.

2352
02:31:30,330 --> 02:31:31,807
- Yeah, you, I mean,
you're being spicy. Yeah.

2353
02:31:31,890 --> 02:31:34,890
- Yeah, yeah. You have to be
provocative about these things.

2354
02:31:35,050 --> 02:31:38,930
And I thought omitting those two
would be that, and it, and it was. So,

2355
02:31:39,050 --> 02:31:39,887
and here we are talking about it.

2356
02:31:39,970 --> 02:31:42,247
- Yeah, yeah, exactly. The controversy.

2357
02:31:42,330 --> 02:31:45,937
- And through all the systems
of social mobility that we've been

2358
02:31:46,020 --> 02:31:49,230
talking about, Justin ended up emperor.

2359
02:31:49,850 --> 02:31:52,179
because of his military background,
he just rose through the ranks.

2360
02:31:52,262 --> 02:31:53,607
He was in the right place at the right

2361
02:31:53,690 --> 02:31:57,430
time, became emperor, and then he
gradually positioned his nephew,

2362
02:31:57,630 --> 02:32:00,075
Justinian, whose background
we do not know. Literally,

2363
02:32:00,159 --> 02:32:01,407
we do not know anything that

2364
02:32:01,490 --> 02:32:04,708
Justinian did before the age of something
like 38 when he appears on the historical

2365
02:32:04,792 --> 02:32:05,625
record.

2366
02:32:06,030 --> 02:32:09,767
Same background. We know where he came
from, but we don't know what he was

2367
02:32:09,850 --> 02:32:13,890
doing, although, like, was he an active
soldier for decades? We don't know.

2368
02:32:15,310 --> 02:32:19,087
Probably not. He comes equipped with,

2369
02:32:19,170 --> 02:32:22,627
like, a knowledge of something
like Roman law and some Christian

2370
02:32:22,710 --> 02:32:25,070
theology. That seems to be,
like, what he knew.

2371
02:32:26,030 --> 02:32:29,927
And then Justin positions
him to become his

2372
02:32:30,010 --> 02:32:33,070
successor eventually,
kind of reluctantly, but he does.

2373
02:32:33,750 --> 02:32:37,250
Justinian also marries Theodora,
who's a woman who's a

2374
02:32:37,410 --> 02:32:40,730
former sex worker, which
is a controversial choice.

2375
02:32:41,710 --> 02:32:45,770
By this point, he's a senator and is
holding all of these top generalships,

2376
02:32:46,670 --> 02:32:49,947
and then he becomes emperor.
- She was also very influential, yes?

2377
02:32:50,030 --> 02:32:51,127
- Very powerful, yes. - Very powerful.

2378
02:32:51,210 --> 02:32:56,370
- Under his, yeah, during his reign.
So the interesting thing about Justinian's

2379
02:32:57,410 --> 02:33:01,070
choice of, let's say, associates,
and that includes his wife,

2380
02:33:01,830 --> 02:33:06,420
is that he seems to have just gone for
people he, like, he thought were talented-

2381
02:33:06,690 --> 02:33:10,587
... or that would be good
for him as a ruler, rather than

2382
02:33:10,670 --> 02:33:14,447
their social class or prestige.
And so he accumulates

2383
02:33:14,530 --> 02:33:21,530
around him quite a motley group of odd,
sometimes like these kinds of,

2384
02:33:22,000 --> 02:33:28,540
disreputable people. But they did what he
wanted them to, and they were, they, with

2385
02:33:28,640 --> 02:33:32,520
lasting consequences for world history.
So he has an eye for talent,

2386
02:33:32,940 --> 02:33:36,680
and, and he doesn't hesitate to pick
people that others might look down

2387
02:33:36,780 --> 02:33:39,577
on if he thought they
could get the job done.

2388
02:33:39,660 --> 02:33:43,437
And these are some of the attributes
that enable him to be as successful as he

2389
02:33:43,520 --> 02:33:46,520
was. So that's his background.

2390
02:33:47,920 --> 02:33:50,720
He's a Latin speaker primarily,
but he knows Greek, too.

2391
02:33:51,360 --> 02:33:55,340
- So here he is and he, but he had, so
like I mentioned, the wars of conquests.

2392
02:33:55,440 --> 02:33:57,400
He also overhauled the Roman law.

2393
02:33:58,180 --> 02:33:59,500
- He appoints a committee-

2394
02:33:59,840 --> 02:34:05,840
... As one does-... To just take
the whole of Roman law and condense it

2395
02:34:05,940 --> 02:34:09,857
into what today we call the Corpus
Juris Civilis, which is the,

2396
02:34:09,940 --> 02:34:14,800
the body of Roman civil law. And this
was a massive work of codification,

2397
02:34:15,720 --> 02:34:19,477
And it is our main source for Roman

2398
02:34:19,560 --> 02:34:23,080
law. Like overwhelmingly,
what we call Roman law

2399
02:34:23,920 --> 02:34:27,086
is what Justinian's committee,
and specifically this character called

2400
02:34:27,169 --> 02:34:31,180
Tribonian, who was a very
accomplished jurist said it was.

2401
02:34:31,480 --> 02:34:34,687
- Mm-hmm. And that, did that persist
through time? Did that last?

2402
02:34:34,770 --> 02:34:38,350
- Yes, still to this day.
When you study Roman law, you're studying

2403
02:34:39,140 --> 02:34:40,240
Tribonian's committee.

2404
02:34:40,960 --> 02:34:45,570
- And so in terms of our modern society,
how much of impact did that have,

2405
02:34:46,640 --> 02:34:51,190
this codification, this stable
law that ran the East Roman Empire?

2406
02:34:51,500 --> 02:34:53,900
- Well, I mean, Roman
legal concepts pervade

2407
02:34:54,900 --> 02:34:58,837
everything from philosophy to political
thought to actual Roman, uh, legal

2408
02:34:58,920 --> 02:35:00,951
practice. I mean, depends
on what country you're in.

2409
02:35:01,035 --> 02:35:02,935
So in many of the countries of Europe,

2410
02:35:03,940 --> 02:35:05,340
it is the,

2411
02:35:06,320 --> 02:35:09,217
you know, current law. And it is to some
degree. I mean, I'm, I'm exaggerating.

2412
02:35:09,300 --> 02:35:13,280
But legal scholars have
to study Roman law. Even, even,

2413
02:35:13,600 --> 02:35:15,050
law students have to do that.

2414
02:35:15,700 --> 02:35:18,412
Not in, so much in countries
like the United States or Britain,

2415
02:35:18,495 --> 02:35:19,537
which have the so-called

2416
02:35:19,620 --> 02:35:25,140
common law system. But ideas
in Roman law about, for example,

2417
02:35:25,440 --> 02:35:28,980
property, right,
ownership, things like this,

2418
02:35:29,520 --> 02:35:33,397
these were hugely important in formulating
ideas, for example, about sovereignty

2419
02:35:33,480 --> 02:35:36,917
in political thought. Yeah,
it's one of the most important and

2420
02:35:37,000 --> 02:35:40,280
influential acts of committee
work ever done in Constantinople.

2421
02:35:41,700 --> 02:35:44,977
- So, going to Perplexity here
and looking at some aspects of the

2422
02:35:45,060 --> 02:35:48,957
Justinian's laws, they include
a systematic structure of private

2423
02:35:49,040 --> 02:35:52,697
law, persons, things,
actions, strong protection of

2424
02:35:52,780 --> 02:35:56,580
property and contracts,
detailed family and inheritance

2425
02:35:56,700 --> 02:36:00,120
rules, and a hierarchical
status-based view of

2426
02:36:00,240 --> 02:36:04,080
persons. These elements became
the template for later civil

2427
02:36:04,180 --> 02:36:11,117
law systems. And some overall
structures, tripartite schema, law

2428
02:36:11,200 --> 02:36:18,200
organized around personae, legal
subjects, things, and procedural

2429
02:36:18,800 --> 02:36:21,987
actions. Essentially who,
what, and how of—

2430
02:36:22,070 --> 02:36:25,857
...private law. And it goes on. I mean, a
lot of the things I'm reading here really

2431
02:36:25,940 --> 02:36:30,660
sounds like what we
think of as law. Marriage.

2432
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:33,760
- Look, most of it's about property.

2433
02:36:35,140 --> 02:36:38,597
- Marriage is a legal status.
Lawful matrimony required

2434
02:36:38,680 --> 02:36:42,380
conformity to rules about
age, citizenship, and

2435
02:36:42,560 --> 02:36:46,457
cognatum or prohibited degrees,
incest rules, adoption

2436
02:36:46,540 --> 02:36:49,060
relations, et cetera.
All that kind of stuff.

2437
02:36:49,300 --> 02:36:51,620
- Oh, yes. Who you can marry, who not.

2438
02:36:52,240 --> 02:36:54,190
- What was their view of homosexuality?

2439
02:36:54,480 --> 02:36:57,330
- Well, I mean, Justinian
thought it caused earthquakes.

2440
02:36:58,360 --> 02:37:00,037
- Oh, did it? - Yes. - Did it?

2441
02:37:00,120 --> 02:37:01,780
- Yes. - Wow. That's fascinating.

2442
02:37:01,880 --> 02:37:05,560
- Um, no, for him no, for, for...
So for Christian emperors

2443
02:37:06,640 --> 02:37:10,720
or Christian authorities, this is a,
a reprehensible immoral act.

2444
02:37:11,620 --> 02:37:15,680
Um, depending, it, it could be punished.

2445
02:37:16,140 --> 02:37:20,100
Um, Justinian did try to punish
it pretty brutally. I mean,

2446
02:37:20,420 --> 02:37:27,097
ultimately lethally. Um,
however, this gets really tricky

2447
02:37:27,180 --> 02:37:34,180
here because what counts as a homosexual
act is not clear to everybody, right?

2448
02:37:35,360 --> 02:37:42,360
And in addition to which, there... This
is a society that generally will not go

2449
02:37:45,580 --> 02:37:48,560
after, let's say,

2450
02:37:50,400 --> 02:37:54,297
Scandals or deviance or however you
wanna call it, like systematically.

2451
02:37:54,380 --> 02:37:56,637
This is not like some--
There's no inquisition.

2452
02:37:56,720 --> 02:38:03,720
There's no social police. If there's
some sort of scandal and this comes out,

2453
02:38:04,080 --> 02:38:07,780
then it's a problem. But they're
not actively going to track down,

2454
02:38:07,880 --> 02:38:11,697
hunt down, monitor, survey, interrogate

2455
02:38:11,780 --> 02:38:15,417
people about their sex lives.
I mean, it is in a way, despite

2456
02:38:15,500 --> 02:38:21,300
having views that we, we may
not agree with about sexuality,

2457
02:38:22,140 --> 02:38:27,097
uh, it was, it was, it was generally
humane in the way of just kind of leaving

2458
02:38:27,180 --> 02:38:28,040
people alone.

2459
02:38:28,920 --> 02:38:32,797
- I mean, that said, there's some...
I'm just on Perplexity, looked

2460
02:38:32,880 --> 02:38:39,880
up Justinian Roman law view of sexuality.
They're pretty harsh on, like adultery

2461
02:38:40,140 --> 02:38:43,520
and just getting freaky with it.

2462
02:38:43,660 --> 02:38:48,617
- No, Justinian was more zealous
in this matter, definitely.

2463
02:38:48,700 --> 02:38:52,380
- Even though he married a sex worker.

2464
02:38:53,400 --> 02:38:55,000
- Well, sex work wasn't illegal.

2465
02:38:56,540 --> 02:38:58,337
- Right, but it's a bit spicy.

2466
02:38:58,420 --> 02:39:02,300
- Yes. And in fact,
it was illegal for a senator to marry

2467
02:39:02,500 --> 02:39:05,050
someone from such
a disreputable profession.

2468
02:39:05,400 --> 02:39:10,260
And he got his uncle to pass a law
changing that rule-... so that he could.

2469
02:39:11,160 --> 02:39:14,320
- Well. Love knows no bounds.

2470
02:39:14,520 --> 02:39:17,257
- Actually, Justinian kind
of says that in one of his laws.

2471
02:39:17,340 --> 02:39:20,687
- Oh, wow. - No, he clearly loved her.
There, there's no question.

2472
02:39:20,770 --> 02:39:24,397
- This actual love. I mean, this, you have
to like this guy. Starts as a peasant.

2473
02:39:24,480 --> 02:39:28,277
Surround himself by all kinds
of weirdos just because they

2474
02:39:28,360 --> 02:39:31,717
were good at what they did, and it
doesn't really matter, class or not.

2475
02:39:31,800 --> 02:39:36,580
- Yes, but there's a lot to be said
against him, too. Um, I like so much.

2476
02:39:37,980 --> 02:39:41,640
- Let's get into it.
So he did launch wars of conquest.

2477
02:39:42,560 --> 02:39:46,377
What was his view of war
and conquest, and what maybe what

2478
02:39:46,460 --> 02:39:50,637
are the things we should mention
in terms of expansionary wars?

2479
02:39:50,720 --> 02:39:53,950
- He thought he was authorized by God
to reconquer the lost provinces of

2480
02:39:54,034 --> 02:39:58,400
the Western Roman Empire, and when he did
so, that was proof that God favored him.

2481
02:39:59,620 --> 02:40:03,557
And he was generally opportunistic
about it and for the most part, kind

2482
02:40:03,640 --> 02:40:07,457
of successful in that he
intervened in the most

2483
02:40:07,540 --> 02:40:11,437
critical moments of the histories of these
barbarian, you know, kingdoms in the

2484
02:40:11,520 --> 02:40:15,077
West, and exploited
their weaknesses and took them

2485
02:40:15,160 --> 02:40:18,797
over. Now, in the process,
many of these provinces were ravaged by

2486
02:40:18,880 --> 02:40:25,297
war Italy for decades. He
overstretched his resources, leaving his

2487
02:40:25,380 --> 02:40:31,800
successors with a much more
dangerous situation to defend.

2488
02:40:32,360 --> 02:40:36,260
and he disbanded certain armies that
were meant to protect Constantinople,

2489
02:40:36,640 --> 02:40:40,200
sent them to Italy, for example.
This weakened the home front.

2490
02:40:41,160 --> 02:40:45,057
So he left a very difficult legacy
for his successors in that way.

2491
02:40:45,140 --> 02:40:48,837
Plus, some of the provinces
that he conquered were so like

2492
02:40:48,920 --> 02:40:52,770
Italy, I don't think it could even
pay for itself after a certain point.

2493
02:40:53,020 --> 02:40:56,517
so I'm not sure that some of those
decisions were the best ones. North

2494
02:40:56,600 --> 02:41:02,060
Africa, yeah, probably that paid off.
Italy and southern Spain, not so sure.

2495
02:41:02,280 --> 02:41:06,840
- So that's one of the big criticisms
is even though there was conquest,

2496
02:41:07,760 --> 02:41:13,000
it was overextended, and-...
those lands were not economically stable.

2497
02:41:13,480 --> 02:41:15,680
- Yeah, and - Broke. AKA.

2498
02:41:15,960 --> 02:41:19,400
- Conquest is not just good,
you know, in itself. I mean, this is...

2499
02:41:20,240 --> 02:41:23,603
I know that some rulers in history are
called the Great simply because they

2500
02:41:23,686 --> 02:41:27,382
conquered something. But that's,
no, that's not enough. I mean,

2501
02:41:27,466 --> 02:41:29,160
I know that rulers do this,

2502
02:41:29,900 --> 02:41:33,557
but if we're to compare them
to each other we should at least

2503
02:41:33,640 --> 02:41:37,577
expect that they have a plan or that it
works out well in the end, let's

2504
02:41:37,660 --> 02:41:39,960
say, and I don't think
that many of these did.

2505
02:41:40,580 --> 02:41:44,060
- I should say that as
far as historians go,

2506
02:41:44,660 --> 02:41:48,500
I think you don't give too many
points on the conquest front.

2507
02:41:49,260 --> 02:41:50,780
- Personally, I? No, I don't.

2508
02:41:51,060 --> 02:41:56,760
- Yeah, so your value comes from
is a leader implementing lasting

2509
02:41:58,080 --> 02:42:02,037
change, like a stable- -
Was he good for his subjects?

2510
02:42:02,120 --> 02:42:05,240
Were they living better
because of him than otherwise?

2511
02:42:05,600 --> 02:42:10,677
- And also, like, longer, like,
the long- term nature of it, not just-

2512
02:42:10,760 --> 02:42:12,957
... not just, like, a temporary thing.

2513
02:42:13,040 --> 02:42:17,960
- Right. Are you strengthening
institutions that benefit your subjects?

2514
02:42:18,580 --> 02:42:22,377
That. And some he did, some not.
So look, in order to send

2515
02:42:22,460 --> 02:42:26,237
those armies west to make
the conquests, he stripped the

2516
02:42:26,320 --> 02:42:29,977
east of armies, so the Persians could
just march in and, like, destroyed

2517
02:42:30,060 --> 02:42:33,480
Antioch. Like, that's
a major strategic failure,

2518
02:42:34,380 --> 02:42:38,041
and I don't think you get a pass for
conquering North Africa by surrendering

2519
02:42:38,124 --> 02:42:38,958
Syria.

2520
02:42:39,540 --> 02:42:44,760
- He did rebuild Constantinople
and reconstructed the Hagia Sophia.

2521
02:42:44,860 --> 02:42:48,740
- Yes, after he and his
soldiers set fire to it. Yes. I-

2522
02:42:48,840 --> 02:42:52,439
in the Nika insurrection. So this is when
the people of the capital rise up against

2523
02:42:52,523 --> 02:42:53,356
him,

2524
02:42:53,460 --> 02:42:57,317
and there's, like about 10 days of street
fighting, and he brings in some armies,

2525
02:42:57,400 --> 02:43:00,817
and eventually he orders
his armies to slaughter the

2526
02:43:00,900 --> 02:43:04,637
protesters, leaving more than
30,000 dead. Like, this is an

2527
02:43:04,720 --> 02:43:08,637
enormous number.
And a lot of Constantinople

2528
02:43:08,720 --> 02:43:12,497
burned in the process, and yeah,
he rebuilt it. So his building is

2529
02:43:12,580 --> 02:43:16,457
considered one of his great points.
He built Hagia Sophia, for example, which

2530
02:43:16,540 --> 02:43:22,997
is a magnificent church, like, hands down.
It's just a fascinating monument to study,

2531
02:43:23,080 --> 02:43:26,917
too. And yeah, that was,
that was him, too. I'm trying

2532
02:43:27,000 --> 02:43:30,957
to give you a sense here that the good and
the bad are mixed in such equal measure

2533
02:43:31,040 --> 02:43:35,417
that, like Buridan's ass, I can't decide
which-... which bale of hay to put him on.

2534
02:43:35,500 --> 02:43:37,737
- But there's a grand scale
to the good and the bad.

2535
02:43:37,820 --> 02:43:41,940
- Yes, yes. - For many people,
that's what makes for a, uh-

2536
02:43:42,260 --> 02:43:46,120
... top 10 emperor list.
Uh, what about the plague?

2537
02:43:46,800 --> 02:43:49,200
- Well, he wasn't
responsible for that at least.

2538
02:43:49,780 --> 02:43:50,617
- All right. - Okay.

2539
02:43:50,700 --> 02:43:56,477
- The plague of Justinian-...
AKA 541 AD. So some historians claim

2540
02:43:56,560 --> 02:43:59,410
that it killed half the population
and ruined the empire.

2541
02:44:00,000 --> 02:44:01,580
You are skeptical on this view.

2542
02:44:02,020 --> 02:44:05,860
- Yes. So this is a bubonic plague.

2543
02:44:06,280 --> 02:44:10,157
Um, which lasts more
or less for two centuries. It

2544
02:44:10,240 --> 02:44:14,037
comes and it goes, and it's kind
of endemic to large parts of the

2545
02:44:14,120 --> 02:44:18,017
world. 541 is when it
starts to break out in

2546
02:44:18,100 --> 02:44:21,900
the empire, in Constantinople
and other cities, and it spreads.

2547
02:44:22,780 --> 02:44:26,697
There's been a lot of debate about
this recently because now we've

2548
02:44:26,780 --> 02:44:30,430
actually isolated the pathogen.
It's Yersinia pestis. Like, we know this.

2549
02:44:31,040 --> 02:44:33,957
Just as of, like, a generation
ago, this was just guesswork.

2550
02:44:34,040 --> 02:44:37,897
But now there's all of this new, like,
laboratory science work that's come in to

2551
02:44:37,980 --> 02:44:39,997
fill in some of the gaps in history.

2552
02:44:40,080 --> 02:44:44,357
- That's so cool. - It is. It is. There
are lots of discussions about that. And

2553
02:44:44,440 --> 02:44:50,700
so the study of diseases and virology have
just become much more important lately.

2554
02:44:51,960 --> 02:44:55,797
It still doesn't tell you, however,
like mortality rates and historical

2555
02:44:55,880 --> 02:44:59,577
impact. Like, for that,
you still need standard old-fashioned

2556
02:44:59,660 --> 02:45:01,380
non-laboratory historical work.

2557
02:45:01,800 --> 02:45:04,814
And there's a debate about the impact
of this plague. It's ongoing,

2558
02:45:04,898 --> 02:45:05,798
I should say that.

2559
02:45:06,660 --> 02:45:10,217
And some scholars argue
for a kind of maximalist position

2560
02:45:10,300 --> 02:45:15,220
of 50%. I think that would have
brought this society to a halt.

2561
02:45:16,150 --> 02:45:22,470
Just logistically speaking. And so I
believe in a much more moderate impact.

2562
02:45:22,870 --> 02:45:25,610
- And the real impact is what?
The tax base shrinks?

2563
02:45:25,830 --> 02:45:29,450
- Oh. Oh, yeah.
The tax base would shrink instantly.

2564
02:45:29,890 --> 02:45:33,787
You wouldn't be able to recruit armies.
You know, there would be massive social

2565
02:45:33,870 --> 02:45:37,727
dislocation. Like what
happens in the, in the Black

2566
02:45:37,810 --> 02:45:41,687
Death in Europe in the 14th century.
Like, we have very good records

2567
02:45:41,770 --> 02:45:44,973
for what happened to those societies, and
basically everything that they were doing

2568
02:45:45,057 --> 02:45:45,707
stopped for a few

2569
02:45:45,790 --> 02:45:49,667
years until they sort of tried to put
things back together again. This

2570
02:45:49,750 --> 02:45:51,500
does not happen in the 6th century.

2571
02:45:52,070 --> 02:45:56,027
In fact, Justinian is at that time
waging war on something like

2572
02:45:56,110 --> 02:45:57,630
four or five different fronts.

2573
02:45:58,810 --> 02:46:02,600
If you read the narratives of those
wars, there's no pause. There's

2574
02:46:02,750 --> 02:46:06,507
no, there's no impact
from the plague on the

2575
02:46:06,590 --> 02:46:08,880
conduct of those wars.
They just continue on.

2576
02:46:09,250 --> 02:46:13,107
Taxation continues. The courts continue.
Like, you just don't see it in

2577
02:46:13,190 --> 02:46:16,947
the narrative, and so I
think that there's a much less

2578
02:46:17,030 --> 02:46:19,530
impact than, certainly than 50%, yeah.

2579
02:46:19,870 --> 02:46:24,750
- So this sets the stage
for a tumultuous 7th century.

2580
02:46:25,390 --> 02:46:27,490
- Yeah, you could call it that. Yes.

2581
02:46:27,910 --> 02:46:34,910
- So what is the legacy of Justinian,
in terms of how he left the empire

2582
02:46:35,610 --> 02:46:37,790
leading into the 7th century?

2583
02:46:38,490 --> 02:46:42,427
- Well, he left it overextended,
so his successors

2584
02:46:42,510 --> 02:46:46,180
had to deal with many more
problems along many more fronts,

2585
02:46:46,990 --> 02:46:50,927
With fewer military forces
concentrated in what we might call the

2586
02:46:51,010 --> 02:46:52,860
homeland of the Eastern Roman Empire.

2587
02:46:53,890 --> 02:46:57,747
And so that made the, the center
vulnerable too, and so you start

2588
02:46:57,830 --> 02:47:04,370
to get raids into the Balkans and, you
know, it enters a kind of vicious cycle

2589
02:47:05,010 --> 02:47:06,030
again.

2590
02:47:07,110 --> 02:47:09,268
now, not all of this was
Justinian's fault. I mean,

2591
02:47:09,351 --> 02:47:10,647
the plague definitely had some

2592
02:47:10,730 --> 02:47:16,507
impact. But I wouldn't
blame everything on his

2593
02:47:16,590 --> 02:47:20,540
successors, as is sometimes done,
like they mishandled the situation.

2594
02:47:21,430 --> 02:47:26,590
He... Yeah, he left them a very
difficult situation to deal with.

2595
02:47:27,130 --> 02:47:29,680
- So speaking of which,
let's talk about Heraclius.

2596
02:47:30,610 --> 02:47:34,430
He didn't make, he didn't make
your list either, which is a shocker

2597
02:47:35,110 --> 02:47:38,447
for a lot of people. Perhaps you
can describe the nuance of that, but

2598
02:47:38,530 --> 02:47:41,627
he took over the Roman
Empire on the verge of

2599
02:47:41,710 --> 02:47:48,710
extinction. Persians at the gates,
treasury empty. So maybe first tell the

2600
02:47:49,450 --> 02:47:53,430
full saga of the Roman-Persian War
that threatened the empire's existence.

2601
02:47:53,630 --> 02:47:56,650
- Sure. Well,
he wasn't entirely, you know,

2602
02:47:57,390 --> 02:48:01,027
free of blame for the
situation that he inherited.

2603
02:48:01,110 --> 02:48:05,387
He was in part responsible for it.
So he doesn't get a pass on that.

2604
02:48:05,470 --> 02:48:10,270
So Heraclius is basically
a rebel and a usurper. So

2605
02:48:11,610 --> 02:48:18,610
for various reasons Rome and Persia
are at war starting around 602.

2606
02:48:18,990 --> 02:48:22,710
and the, the Persian shah
at this time, Khosrow II,

2607
02:48:23,270 --> 02:48:26,870
has basically decided
on a policy of conquest,

2608
02:48:27,010 --> 02:48:30,060
not just raiding. Like,
I'm gonna go in and take your people,

2609
02:48:31,090 --> 02:48:34,640
some cattle, and some statues,
and take them to, you know, Mesopotamia.

2610
02:48:35,210 --> 02:48:38,947
He starts what... I mean, I think there's
some evolution in his thinking and his

2611
02:48:39,030 --> 02:48:42,290
planning about this,
but pretty soon during the

2612
02:48:42,470 --> 02:48:46,087
600 and the aughts,
he realizes that there's

2613
02:48:46,170 --> 02:48:50,027
potential for actual permanent territorial
gain here, and his armies start moving

2614
02:48:50,110 --> 02:48:54,050
in. And the Roman Emperor is this guy
called Phocas, who is himself a usurper,

2615
02:48:54,810 --> 02:48:58,587
a military background,
and he now faces a rebellion

2616
02:48:58,670 --> 02:49:02,990
by Heraclius, who, whose base is in North
Africa at this time, like around Carthage.

2617
02:49:04,150 --> 02:49:09,690
And they have a civil war
for three years, 608 to 610.

2618
02:49:10,200 --> 02:49:13,590
That civil war that Heraclius initiates

2619
02:49:14,470 --> 02:49:18,227
causes a diversion of Roman
armies to the civil war away

2620
02:49:18,310 --> 02:49:22,070
from the Persian front.
So it's a massive gift to the Persians.

2621
02:49:22,730 --> 02:49:26,367
Plus, a lot of the fighting takes
place in Egypt, and Egypt was a

2622
02:49:26,450 --> 02:49:31,720
province that had up until that point
not really been harmed by war. Now it is,

2623
02:49:32,530 --> 02:49:36,400
right? So Heraclius's forces,
he's not in Egypt, but his backers,

2624
02:49:37,390 --> 02:49:41,027
are fighting a civil war
in Egypt, so that province is

2625
02:49:41,110 --> 02:49:45,027
now, you know, ravaged in part. The

2626
02:49:45,110 --> 02:49:49,087
Persians make tremendous gains
in the east. Heraclius heads straight for

2627
02:49:49,170 --> 02:49:53,087
Constantinople during all of this,
and to make a long story short, he manages

2628
02:49:53,170 --> 02:49:56,760
to take Constantinople,
execute Phocas, and become emperor,

2629
02:49:57,210 --> 02:50:01,047
right? But now he's facing a problem
that's much worse than it was

2630
02:50:01,130 --> 02:50:06,830
when, before he started the rebellion.
The reason why Heraclius is sort of

2631
02:50:06,930 --> 02:50:10,807
lionized in some... Well, actually,
there's a very long tradition of doing

2632
02:50:10,890 --> 02:50:13,567
this, which goes back to the Middle Ages.
In the Western Middle Ages,

2633
02:50:13,650 --> 02:50:16,587
Heraclius was sometimes considered,
like, the first crusader.

2634
02:50:16,670 --> 02:50:17,570
- Oh, interesting.

2635
02:50:17,910 --> 02:50:21,367
- Yeah, yeah. So there's all this medieval
literature about Heraclius as being a

2636
02:50:21,450 --> 02:50:23,510
a proto-crusader type and all that,

2637
02:50:24,350 --> 02:50:28,147
For reconquering, like,
Jerusalem from the Persians and

2638
02:50:28,230 --> 02:50:32,190
restoring the True Cross and all that.
So he had this kind of

2639
02:50:32,290 --> 02:50:34,920
aura, and I think his modern

2640
02:50:35,350 --> 02:50:39,300
admirers are basically just continuing...
I mean, they might not know it,

2641
02:50:39,530 --> 02:50:43,206
but they're kind of continuing this very,
very long tradition of treating Heraclius

2642
02:50:43,289 --> 02:50:48,610
as this heroic holy warrior.
Anyway, from my standpoint,

2643
02:50:49,670 --> 02:50:53,290
it's a complete wash.
In other words, yes, he

2644
02:50:53,430 --> 02:50:57,367
does beat the Persians and he gets, like,

2645
02:50:57,450 --> 02:51:01,227
in my view, full credit for that,
though he did it with, I think, the

2646
02:51:01,310 --> 02:51:05,050
help of some Turkish allies from
Central Asia. These were, I think,

2647
02:51:05,630 --> 02:51:09,207
the major component of his
success at the very end. But no,

2648
02:51:09,290 --> 02:51:13,400
no. So he held the Persians off
and ultimately defeated them, yes.

2649
02:51:14,210 --> 02:51:16,287
And then he loses everything to the Arabs.

2650
02:51:16,370 --> 02:51:23,370
- So the Arab conquests are 630s and 640s,
but the Persian War is 602 to 628.

2651
02:51:23,890 --> 02:51:24,467
- Yes.

2652
02:51:24,550 --> 02:51:31,360
- So what can be said about this what
seems to be a pretty costly war, I guess

2653
02:51:31,540 --> 02:51:37,600
Persians - So the war was costly
initially only for the Romans.

2654
02:51:38,660 --> 02:51:42,257
the eastern provinces were conquered
by Persia. That means Syria,

2655
02:51:42,340 --> 02:51:45,000
Palestine, Egypt. So that's a loss.

2656
02:51:45,120 --> 02:51:48,670
You lose all that revenue, and then
they start raiding into Asia Minor.

2657
02:51:48,800 --> 02:51:52,051
- Yes. - By the way, this is exactly
what the Arabs would do, you know,

2658
02:51:52,134 --> 02:51:55,002
just a couple decades later. They
would conquer Syria, Palestine, Egypt,

2659
02:51:55,085 --> 02:51:57,335
and they would start
raiding into Asia Minor.

2660
02:51:57,620 --> 02:52:01,237
So almost like this phase
of East Roman history begins

2661
02:52:01,320 --> 02:52:05,237
already during the Persian invasion.
It's just a kind of a prelude. It was, in

2662
02:52:05,320 --> 02:52:08,420
fact, the Arabs that would do
that for the next few centuries.

2663
02:52:08,720 --> 02:52:13,300
So Heraclius, it takes him
a very long time to get organized,

2664
02:52:14,120 --> 02:52:17,877
In fact, something like
15 years, and it's not

2665
02:52:17,960 --> 02:52:21,760
entirely clear, like,
what he's doing all this time. Um,

2666
02:52:22,360 --> 02:52:29,360
but he ultimately manages to defeat
the Persians by waging these really

2667
02:52:29,820 --> 02:52:33,597
spectacular, weird
campaigns in the East. He

2668
02:52:33,680 --> 02:52:37,617
decides to strike into
the Persian heartland,

2669
02:52:37,700 --> 02:52:41,057
as it were. Well, first in the Caucasus
region, and then he goes into

2670
02:52:41,140 --> 02:52:44,597
Mesopotamia. So not to try
to defeat their armies that

2671
02:52:44,680 --> 02:52:48,400
are rampaging around Asia Minor
or even besieging his capital

2672
02:52:48,740 --> 02:52:52,677
in 626. The Persians and the Avars,
this people from... This

2673
02:52:52,760 --> 02:52:56,637
nomadic warrior group
that settled in roughly modern

2674
02:52:56,720 --> 02:53:00,170
Hungary, they're besieging Constantinople.
Heraclius doesn't even go.

2675
02:53:01,040 --> 02:53:04,697
And he's just kind of preparing his
armies in the East, and he strikes the

2676
02:53:04,780 --> 02:53:08,257
Persians right where it hurts,
and this now begins to

2677
02:53:08,340 --> 02:53:12,160
degrade the Persian heartland
and their infrastructure

2678
02:53:12,780 --> 02:53:15,933
because remember, both of these empires
are going to be in shambles by the time

2679
02:53:16,016 --> 02:53:16,517
the Arabs come

2680
02:53:16,600 --> 02:53:19,342
along, and this is what enables
the Arabs to conquer them so quickly.

2681
02:53:19,426 --> 02:53:21,226
I mean, they've destroyed each other

2682
02:53:22,040 --> 02:53:25,897
in these wars. And eventually Heraclius
calls in his Turkish allies, and they

2683
02:53:25,980 --> 02:53:29,877
go on a field trip
through Mesopotamia, and

2684
02:53:29,960 --> 02:53:33,440
this causes a coup in,
in Persia, and Khosrow is killed.

2685
02:53:34,060 --> 02:53:37,757
- Is there something to be said,
a little bit of texture to the

2686
02:53:37,840 --> 02:53:41,657
motivations of the different empires
and the different groups involved? So the

2687
02:53:41,740 --> 02:53:45,097
East Roman Empire,
the Persian Empire, and the Islamic

2688
02:53:45,180 --> 02:53:48,800
Caliphates, were they
after conquering? Were they

2689
02:53:48,960 --> 02:53:52,717
after expansion?
Were they after more like raiding

2690
02:53:52,800 --> 02:53:55,840
for financial benefits?
What was the motivation?

2691
02:53:56,160 --> 02:53:59,977
- So in the past, the Persian Shahs
basically were interested in raiding, and

2692
02:54:00,060 --> 02:54:03,977
they also had an interest in manpower.
So all of those Mesopotamian

2693
02:54:04,060 --> 02:54:07,637
agricultural estates won't till
themselves. So they were kind of

2694
02:54:07,720 --> 02:54:11,383
insatiable for agricultural workforces
and specialized craftsmen and people like

2695
02:54:11,466 --> 02:54:14,280
that. so they would go into
the empire and get them.

2696
02:54:15,420 --> 02:54:18,880
But in this phase, it seems that Khosrow

2697
02:54:19,040 --> 02:54:22,757
II is taking really to heart
the idea that the Persian

2698
02:54:22,840 --> 02:54:25,240
Empire should really
extend to the Mediterranean

2699
02:54:25,820 --> 02:54:29,607
as it did in, like, Achaemenid times,
right, in, in ancient history, the empire

2700
02:54:29,690 --> 02:54:33,637
that Alexander conquered.
So it seems that the, the Sassanians,

2701
02:54:33,720 --> 02:54:37,397
this is this dynasty, this Iranian
dynasty that's ruling the Persian

2702
02:54:37,480 --> 02:54:41,397
Empire, of course, they were aware
of the Achaemenids, but sometimes they

2703
02:54:41,480 --> 02:54:46,300
would have these claims to reviving the
former greatness of the Iranian Empire.

2704
02:54:46,800 --> 02:54:50,597
So, you know, bathing in the
Mediterranean Sea is something

2705
02:54:50,680 --> 02:54:54,597
that many Near Eastern monarchs, you know,

2706
02:54:54,680 --> 02:54:58,399
they did this as a sign of success.
Anyway, for the Romans,

2707
02:54:58,482 --> 02:54:59,900
it was sheer survival,

2708
02:55:00,980 --> 02:55:04,917
Just desperate survival 'cause
they knew that this was a war

2709
02:55:05,000 --> 02:55:06,437
that could end the Roman state.

2710
02:55:06,520 --> 02:55:10,720
- I mean, they're already
on the verge of being ended.

2711
02:55:10,860 --> 02:55:15,500
And here, their defensive
wars of survival.

2712
02:55:15,820 --> 02:55:22,820
- Yeah. So it's pretty clear that
initially the goal of Arab Muslim warfare

2713
02:55:23,526 --> 02:55:27,980
is to unify Arabia. That is,
that all Arabs should be

2714
02:55:28,240 --> 02:55:35,240
Muslim and should be unified into this
religious kind of state, whatever, that

2715
02:55:35,780 --> 02:55:38,639
the prophet and his
successors had created. Now,

2716
02:55:38,722 --> 02:55:40,500
then they start striking out,

2717
02:55:41,520 --> 02:55:47,900
Into Rome and into Iran.
It's not entirely clear, like, why. Now,

2718
02:55:49,060 --> 02:55:52,540
there are obvious reasons. Like,
I mean, we don't-- It's not, like, a

2719
02:55:52,660 --> 02:55:55,927
huge historical mystery
why a, you know, recently

2720
02:55:56,010 --> 02:56:01,097
formed successful army will decide
to take on two very weak opponents-

2721
02:56:01,180 --> 02:56:04,897
... who are on their doorstep. Like-...
this is not, you know, complicated.

2722
02:56:04,980 --> 02:56:08,460
- Yeah, they're pretty effective
at military-... conquest.

2723
02:56:08,580 --> 02:56:12,217
- Yeah. But they're striking both
empires from a direction that those

2724
02:56:12,300 --> 02:56:15,997
empires had never prepared
to defend from. Arabia was just

2725
02:56:16,080 --> 02:56:20,000
not, "Oh, you might get some occasional
raiders, but you're never gonna get an

2726
02:56:20,180 --> 02:56:24,117
army that's coming out that can
potentially conquer you." So

2727
02:56:24,200 --> 02:56:26,980
the defensive orientations are all wrong.

2728
02:56:27,460 --> 02:56:30,310
And these two empires have
gone through this massive war,

2729
02:56:31,140 --> 02:56:34,877
that has destabilized them.
They're, they're low on manpower, low on

2730
02:56:34,960 --> 02:56:38,837
resources. The outcome is almost kind
of inevitable. I don't think there's a

2731
02:56:38,920 --> 02:56:39,753
great mystery.

2732
02:56:40,520 --> 02:56:44,960
- And the effect of that is they
stripped away the richest provinces

2733
02:56:45,780 --> 02:56:47,120
of the Roman Empire.

2734
02:56:47,940 --> 02:56:52,677
- Yes, Egypt in particular. That's, that
means now you can't feed Constantinople.

2735
02:56:52,760 --> 02:56:54,477
Like we talked about the grain from Egypt,

2736
02:56:54,560 --> 02:56:57,560
right, that came to Constantinople.
You don't have that now.

2737
02:56:57,800 --> 02:57:00,997
And so that means that the population
of Constantinople will decline

2738
02:57:01,080 --> 02:57:03,460
dramatically over the next few decades.

2739
02:57:03,820 --> 02:57:06,090
- So how, how does
the empire rebuild itself,

2740
02:57:07,620 --> 02:57:11,590
you know, restabilize? Because it's not,
it doesn't collapse there, right?

2741
02:57:11,940 --> 02:57:16,100
- Yes. - It stays, it survives.
There's interesting low

2742
02:57:16,220 --> 02:57:18,680
points for the empire
where it still survives.

2743
02:57:18,820 --> 02:57:19,920
- This is one of them.

2744
02:57:20,320 --> 02:57:23,120
- And that is as interesting
as the survival at the top,

2745
02:57:23,960 --> 02:57:27,397
and the flourishing survival
at the bottom is also super

2746
02:57:27,480 --> 02:57:31,700
interesting. So how do-- What happens?
How does it kinda stabilize?

2747
02:57:32,240 --> 02:57:38,048
- Very slowly. This is a painful
process, and it takes them centuries,

2748
02:57:38,132 --> 02:57:43,390
you could say. First you gotta stop
the bleeding, just try to hold the line.

2749
02:57:43,510 --> 02:57:46,807
It takes them decades to just
to hold a line. Like, they get

2750
02:57:46,890 --> 02:57:53,370
pummeled by the Arabs for decades in
the seventh century until finally by, 6-

2751
02:57:54,110 --> 02:57:58,270
660s, 670, they finally
begin to beat them.

2752
02:57:59,350 --> 02:58:05,110
Beat them on land and hold
the line, on the sea.

2753
02:58:06,010 --> 02:58:09,630
And so we now have
an investment in fleets.

2754
02:58:10,470 --> 02:58:13,930
Eventually, you get the Greek fire,
which is the flamethrowers.

2755
02:58:14,790 --> 02:58:18,367
And when the Arabs try
to take Constantinople, these

2756
02:58:18,450 --> 02:58:22,287
attempts are defeated,
like, twice, and that

2757
02:58:22,370 --> 02:58:26,950
ensures the survival of this,
of the Roman state in some form.

2758
02:58:27,710 --> 02:58:29,630
- How were the flamethrowers used?

2759
02:58:29,930 --> 02:58:31,544
- Ah, yes.
This is an interesting question.

2760
02:58:31,628 --> 02:58:33,287
We're still kind of debating that.

2761
02:58:33,370 --> 02:58:34,587
- Oh, it's not fully understood.

2762
02:58:34,670 --> 02:58:36,070
- Well, it's a state secret.

2763
02:58:37,320 --> 02:58:41,167
They didn't want this getting out,
so they kept it pretty well. The fact

2764
02:58:41,250 --> 02:58:44,807
that we're debating it will tell you that
they were pretty good at keeping secrets.

2765
02:58:44,890 --> 02:58:51,890
So possibly through a pressure valve.
Right? So you have this flammable compound

2766
02:58:55,390 --> 02:58:58,350
whose preparation and components
is also a state secret.

2767
02:58:59,290 --> 02:59:03,167
So there's specialized-- There's a corps
of engineers that prepares this and

2768
02:59:03,250 --> 02:59:04,110
deploys it.

2769
02:59:04,930 --> 02:59:11,930
Um, and it's possibly through a heated
pressurized container with a spigot,

2770
02:59:12,230 --> 02:59:18,990
let's say, that unleashes this thing
through a nozzle, and it's lit and

2771
02:59:20,030 --> 02:59:23,610
basically spews flaming napalm

2772
02:59:24,990 --> 02:59:29,727
on other ships, and it will continue
to burn even when it's on the water.

2773
02:59:29,810 --> 02:59:33,727
Right? On the top. So, like, you can't,
like, swim away or anything. So it's

2774
02:59:33,810 --> 02:59:37,467
this very, very destructive weapon.
Terrifying. They used it

2775
02:59:37,550 --> 02:59:41,410
against Vikings too. This is much later.
So once the Vikings show up-

2776
02:59:41,690 --> 02:59:44,947
... Like, when they would raid attacked

2777
02:59:45,030 --> 02:59:49,060
Constantinople in the 940s,
then again in the 1040s-

2778
02:59:50,270 --> 02:59:54,370
... Yeah, the Romans used Greek
fire fleets to just incinerate the...

2779
02:59:55,410 --> 02:59:57,450
And that'll teach Vikings.

2780
02:59:59,270 --> 03:00:03,107
Yes. If you're in that situation,
you'd rather serve under

2781
03:00:03,190 --> 03:00:05,870
the emperors than attack them.

2782
03:00:06,870 --> 03:00:10,550
- And so this is a kind of nuclear
weapon level state secret.

2783
03:00:10,750 --> 03:00:12,750
- They even had it in hand grenade form.

2784
03:00:14,450 --> 03:00:16,150
- This is a real thing? - Oh, yes.

2785
03:00:16,790 --> 03:00:20,090
- Hand grenade form. - Yes.
So it's a, it's like a clay container,

2786
03:00:20,650 --> 03:00:24,267
with the compound,
and it has, like, some sort of

2787
03:00:24,350 --> 03:00:27,280
fuse that you light on the
outside and you throw it. Now,

2788
03:00:28,250 --> 03:00:30,109
you throw it...
You can throw it against people,

2789
03:00:30,193 --> 03:00:31,647
but it's not gonna be that effective.

2790
03:00:31,730 --> 03:00:34,464
Maybe you burn a person, whatever.
You just wasted a hand grenade for,

2791
03:00:34,547 --> 03:00:40,230
you know, one person. It's most effective
against things like, uh, siege engines.

2792
03:00:40,850 --> 03:00:45,090
Uh, so you, you throw that on a
wooden frame and, you know, yeah.

2793
03:00:45,330 --> 03:00:49,180
- This is incredible. So this is one
of the things that's finally stabilized,

2794
03:00:49,630 --> 03:00:52,630
Stopped the bleeding
from a military perspective.

2795
03:00:52,770 --> 03:00:56,005
- Yeah, eventually. Now, now remember,
they've pulled the armies back into Asia

2796
03:00:56,088 --> 03:01:00,550
Minor, so they're, they're
beginning to defend and fortify Asia

2797
03:01:00,670 --> 03:01:03,668
Minor. Now you have to find ways
to pay and support and feed all of these

2798
03:01:03,751 --> 03:01:07,587
soldiers, and this is a whole
administrative- it's a wrenching

2799
03:01:07,670 --> 03:01:11,487
administrative readjustment. But they
go through it. It takes them a long time.

2800
03:01:11,570 --> 03:01:15,420
Eventually, they emerge with a different
kind of strategic logistical system.

2801
03:01:15,650 --> 03:01:20,070
- Just a smaller, harder-...
core-... of the empire.

2802
03:01:20,250 --> 03:01:21,900
- That's right. Very militarized.

2803
03:01:22,610 --> 03:01:27,807
- Very militarized. And then in the eighth
century, the, the second Arab siege

2804
03:01:27,890 --> 03:01:30,590
of Constantinople, that somehow fails.

2805
03:01:31,070 --> 03:01:34,170
- In the early eighth century,
yes, that was the second siege.

2806
03:01:34,330 --> 03:01:38,147
- Yeah, the early eighth century.
So why, why did it fail? Can you

2807
03:01:38,230 --> 03:01:43,587
tell the story of that siege? That was
really the empire hanging by, by a thread.

2808
03:01:43,670 --> 03:01:47,440
- Yes, but it happened to have a very
competent man in charge. This is,

2809
03:01:47,530 --> 03:01:51,407
uh, Leo III, and he's an emperor
who has- he's a usurper. He's just

2810
03:01:51,490 --> 03:01:55,447
seized power. They knew that
this massive Arab attack was

2811
03:01:55,530 --> 03:01:58,967
coming, and so it's quite
possible that the Roman

2812
03:01:59,050 --> 03:02:02,447
elites, you know, preferred to put someone

2813
03:02:02,530 --> 03:02:06,370
capable in, in power at that moment.
The city was very well prepared.

2814
03:02:07,090 --> 03:02:09,339
I encourage people in the audience to,
to go and read the,

2815
03:02:09,423 --> 03:02:10,727
the sources that we have for that.

2816
03:02:10,810 --> 03:02:14,527
You, you can find many accounts of it
online. It, it was just very, very

2817
03:02:14,610 --> 03:02:18,590
well done. He also had Bulgar allies.

2818
03:02:18,970 --> 03:02:21,151
So these are the,
the Bulgars who had just, you know,

2819
03:02:21,235 --> 03:02:22,707
crossed the Danube just, like, just

2820
03:02:22,790 --> 03:02:26,687
a few years earlier actually
and settled south of the Danube, you

2821
03:02:26,770 --> 03:02:30,740
know, where eventually, you know,
Bulgaria emerged. So he had Bulgar allies,

2822
03:02:31,230 --> 03:02:34,987
and he used the, the Greek fire very,
very strategically. He used his

2823
03:02:35,070 --> 03:02:38,767
own fleet. He contained the Arabs
to certain places where they kind of

2824
03:02:38,850 --> 03:02:42,490
starved and wore them down.
Yeah, it's just very well done.

2825
03:02:42,910 --> 03:02:44,077
- From a military perspective.

2826
03:02:44,160 --> 03:02:45,660
- From a military perspective.

2827
03:02:45,850 --> 03:02:52,187
- Well, was there, was it the,
the walls, the navy, the weather, the

2828
03:02:52,270 --> 03:02:57,970
diplomacy, just good luck
that helped Constantinople hold?

2829
03:02:58,170 --> 03:03:00,206
- I don't see much role
for good luck there. I mean,

2830
03:03:00,289 --> 03:03:01,887
I think he had it all pretty planned out.

2831
03:03:01,970 --> 03:03:04,563
It was all of the elements
that you mentioned. And yeah, he,

2832
03:03:04,646 --> 03:03:09,587
he just deployed them very,
very astutely and went on to rule

2833
03:03:09,670 --> 03:03:13,400
after that for another 20-some
years, and his son continued. Um,

2834
03:03:13,990 --> 03:03:16,736
they, they formed a dynasty.
It was-- We call it the Isaurian dynasty,

2835
03:03:16,819 --> 03:03:18,519
though they were not from Isauria.

2836
03:03:19,190 --> 03:03:23,040
- And then from that, the fascinating
thing that we mentioned about religion,

2837
03:03:23,440 --> 03:03:27,390
there was a whole stretch
of time marked by intense

2838
03:03:27,530 --> 03:03:31,070
internal religious
conflicts over iconoclasm.

2839
03:03:32,090 --> 03:03:35,807
Maybe you can clarify this,
but so iconoclasm, of course, is whether

2840
03:03:35,890 --> 03:03:39,540
sacred images, icons,
should be venerated or destroyed.

2841
03:03:40,330 --> 03:03:44,017
This had major political
and theological stakes. The

2842
03:03:44,100 --> 03:03:47,940
seemingly smallest things can
have the biggest of conflicts.

2843
03:03:48,180 --> 03:03:50,960
- Yeah. You've been in an Orthodox church.

2844
03:03:51,220 --> 03:03:54,360
Have you seen all the icons
and the just painting everywhere?

2845
03:03:54,920 --> 03:03:58,780
Every space that you can imagine
is covered in either icons or

2846
03:03:58,880 --> 03:04:02,480
images or iconography of saints.
All right. That's a result of this.

2847
03:04:03,520 --> 03:04:05,905
No, that's not what Christian
churches used to be like,

2848
03:04:05,989 --> 03:04:07,539
at least not in Constantinople.

2849
03:04:08,220 --> 03:04:13,860
But his dynasty basically tried to limit,

2850
03:04:14,760 --> 03:04:18,617
Or remove images from churches,
and ultimately that

2851
03:04:18,700 --> 03:04:22,030
policy failed. And the other side that

2852
03:04:22,520 --> 03:04:26,457
wanted images or liked images, or let me
put it differently, thought that images

2853
03:04:26,540 --> 03:04:29,797
were not only appropriate but helpful
in the context of Christian

2854
03:04:29,880 --> 03:04:33,717
worship prevailed.
And so gradually the churches began

2855
03:04:33,800 --> 03:04:40,800
to fill up with icons, lots of icons.
They're almost like, you know, like a

2856
03:04:41,220 --> 03:04:45,060
catchword for Orthodox,
you know, devotion. Um,

2857
03:04:45,260 --> 03:04:48,571
I have icons at home. You have a little
corner in the house and you have little

2858
03:04:48,654 --> 03:04:49,488
iconography.

2859
03:04:49,660 --> 03:04:53,497
Um, anyway, I mean, as a secular Orthodox
person, but I... even I can't get away

2860
03:04:53,580 --> 03:04:54,413
from them.

2861
03:04:55,410 --> 03:04:57,187
- But that has serious consequences.
I mean, that was-

2862
03:04:57,270 --> 03:05:00,860
... serious. It was an extremely
serious internal religious conflict.

2863
03:05:01,060 --> 03:05:08,060
- Well, okay, so one asterisk on that.
In my research, I did not find a

2864
03:05:09,140 --> 03:05:13,780
popular interest in this matter. Like-
- Oh, interesting -... yeah, I don't-

2865
03:05:14,220 --> 03:05:18,477
- So this is an overblown- - Yes.
Yes, socially completely overblown.

2866
03:05:18,560 --> 03:05:22,480
- Oh, this is one of those things
where religious folks will write the

2867
03:05:22,620 --> 03:05:24,520
story of history. - That's it. Got it.

2868
03:05:24,780 --> 03:05:25,730
- Ah. - You got it.

2869
03:05:26,560 --> 03:05:30,417
I could not find... There were, like,
a few emperors, and there's some bishops

2870
03:05:30,500 --> 03:05:34,177
and abbots and monks. Like,
I don't know, maybe 100, 200

2871
03:05:34,260 --> 03:05:37,760
people are, like, seriously invested
in this, and they're going at it.

2872
03:05:38,320 --> 03:05:40,760
But these are the people
who write the texts.

2873
03:05:41,580 --> 03:05:44,917
But they never mention, for example,
that, oh, you know, the people of

2874
03:05:45,000 --> 03:05:48,897
Constantinople, they rose up,
and they demanded icons or not icons or

2875
03:05:48,980 --> 03:05:50,077
anything like that.

2876
03:05:50,160 --> 03:05:55,580
Nah, never. So in my view,
this is one of those controversies that's

2877
03:05:56,580 --> 03:06:00,227
only a few people really, really cared-

2878
03:06:00,310 --> 03:06:04,260
... about it, and unfortunately,
they're the ones who wrote the sources.

2879
03:06:04,820 --> 03:06:06,020
- So you always have to,

2880
03:06:07,840 --> 03:06:11,677
Be very careful to consider
the sources when you're reading about

2881
03:06:11,760 --> 03:06:14,420
anything involving religious events.

2882
03:06:14,600 --> 03:06:15,800
- Or any kind of events.

2883
03:06:15,900 --> 03:06:21,068
- But certain things are more intensely,
People are more intensely passionate

2884
03:06:21,151 --> 03:06:24,497
about- ... and therefore they're going,
that bias is going to- - Yeah, yeah

2885
03:06:24,580 --> 03:06:28,387
-... bleed into the way
you report the history.

2886
03:06:28,470 --> 03:06:31,570
- Yeah. And not only that,
when emperors changed their policy,

2887
03:06:33,080 --> 03:06:37,000
almost everyone fell into line.
They switched positions.

2888
03:06:37,620 --> 03:06:41,297
It's like, "No, yeah, whatever. Put the
images, take the images," like, whatever.

2889
03:06:41,380 --> 03:06:45,130
I mean, like this isn't, they did not
see this as central. Some people did,

2890
03:06:45,580 --> 03:06:47,430
and they got very worked up about it.

2891
03:06:48,280 --> 03:06:52,020
Anyway, but in the end,
the pro-icon position won,

2892
03:06:52,860 --> 03:06:56,097
and their view just began
to fill up the space.

2893
03:06:56,180 --> 03:07:02,057
Like, like it literally was filling
up the churches, and it still does.

2894
03:07:02,140 --> 03:07:08,464
- The thing is, we somehow took
on the impossible task of talking about

2895
03:07:08,547 --> 03:07:09,540
a thousand-

2896
03:07:10,180 --> 03:07:12,657
- It'll defeat you, man.
It'll defeat you every time.

2897
03:07:12,740 --> 03:07:16,600
- I mean, there's a reason why
you really wanna do a thousand-hour

2898
03:07:16,700 --> 03:07:18,217
podcast on this, right?

2899
03:07:18,300 --> 03:07:22,290
As, as, as you do, as there's so many
incredible conversations about every

2900
03:07:22,420 --> 03:07:26,297
single emperor, every single nuanced
detail of the emperors. It really is a, is

2901
03:07:26,380 --> 03:07:31,837
a thriving civilization.
It's a thriving empire which in it

2902
03:07:31,920 --> 03:07:35,800
contains so many lessons for even
the modern times. But anyway,

2903
03:07:35,900 --> 03:07:39,697
you have written one of the books
is Streams of Gold, Rivers of

2904
03:07:39,780 --> 03:07:46,577
Blood: The Rise and Fall of Byzantium,
955 AD to the First Crusade. So this

2905
03:07:46,660 --> 03:07:50,397
period has... We talked
about survival and some low

2906
03:07:50,480 --> 03:07:54,460
points. This is a period where,
once again, there's some flourishing.

2907
03:07:55,520 --> 03:08:00,280
So by the 10th century in the
Macedonian era, the empire is back.

2908
03:08:01,360 --> 03:08:07,080
It's wealthy, it's culturally confident,
and under emperors like Basil II,

2909
03:08:08,060 --> 03:08:11,120
Who I think is in your top 10 list.

2910
03:08:11,900 --> 03:08:15,810
it is expanding again,
and this is a period that you

2911
03:08:15,960 --> 03:08:19,877
describe in part in your book, Streams
of Gold, Rivers of Blood. So how did

2912
03:08:19,960 --> 03:08:23,040
Byzantium go from surviving
to expanding again?

2913
03:08:23,800 --> 03:08:29,877
- So I wrote that book in part
in order to test myself and see if I

2914
03:08:29,960 --> 03:08:31,500
could write narrative.

2915
03:08:31,760 --> 03:08:35,697
So I hadn't written a history narrative
book up until that point. Everything

2916
03:08:35,780 --> 03:08:37,680
I wrote was sort of analytical, right?

2917
03:08:38,820 --> 03:08:42,577
And it was successful enough that a few
years later, my editor asked me to

2918
03:08:42,660 --> 03:08:45,997
write the big history, the new Roman
Empire- - Yeah -... the thousand page-

2919
03:08:46,080 --> 03:08:50,717
- Of the whole thing -... of the whole
thing. And so I set for myself the

2920
03:08:50,800 --> 03:08:54,520
task of explaining in this book,
Streams of Gold, Rivers of Blood,

2921
03:08:55,560 --> 03:08:58,980
a very particular period
that was marked by a

2922
03:08:59,100 --> 03:09:06,100
sudden turn to conquest again after a long
period of more or less defensive war. 955,

2923
03:09:06,820 --> 03:09:10,360
there's a new military
leadership is appointed, and

2924
03:09:10,880 --> 03:09:14,720
the Romans go conquering again,
especially in Cilicia,

2925
03:09:14,960 --> 03:09:17,873
northern Syria, and Cyprus,
and the Caucasus,

2926
03:09:17,956 --> 03:09:20,220
and then eventually also Bulgaria.

2927
03:09:22,320 --> 03:09:26,200
And then right afterwards,
they have this generation plus

2928
03:09:26,420 --> 03:09:30,277
period of stability and prosperity, and

2929
03:09:30,360 --> 03:09:33,877
then they're hit by a triple
whammy. These are three new

2930
03:09:33,960 --> 03:09:37,797
attackers. So it's primarily
the Seljuk Turks coming in from the

2931
03:09:37,880 --> 03:09:41,580
east, some Pechenegs coming down
from the north over the Danube,

2932
03:09:42,480 --> 03:09:46,580
And the Normans in southern Italy.

2933
03:09:47,140 --> 03:09:52,060
And under the pressure
of this three-part attack, the,

2934
03:09:52,980 --> 03:09:58,620
you know, this expansionist what had
become more imperial state buckles.

2935
03:09:58,940 --> 03:10:02,417
And enters another one of these
crises, just like the one we

2936
03:10:02,500 --> 03:10:05,996
described for the seventh
century. You know,

2937
03:10:06,080 --> 03:10:09,090
survives it by the skin of its teeth.

2938
03:10:09,320 --> 03:10:13,217
And goes on again to rebuild and become
prosperous, wealthy, and powerful

2939
03:10:13,300 --> 03:10:15,697
again, as it does throughout its history.

2940
03:10:15,780 --> 03:10:21,247
It's these cycles. So I just wanted
to describe that iteration of that-

2941
03:10:21,330 --> 03:10:24,660
... that process,
and that's what I do in that book.

2942
03:10:25,020 --> 03:10:32,020
- So I think the traditional view,
In this perfect storm of the 11th century

2943
03:10:33,740 --> 03:10:38,360
is that it was more to do with the
internal sort of moral decay and,

2944
03:10:39,500 --> 03:10:42,940
Civilian emperors neglecting
the army, this internal stuff.

2945
03:10:43,580 --> 03:10:46,940
And you make the case that
it's the external stuff, the

2946
03:10:47,060 --> 03:10:49,810
three-prong attack, like you
said, Normans in the west,

2947
03:10:50,700 --> 03:10:57,700
the Turkic steppe people in the north, and
in Central Asia, the Turks in the east.

2948
03:10:58,680 --> 03:11:02,517
Can you describe that, the three
forces in the case that that was the

2949
03:11:02,600 --> 03:11:05,300
main reason why it hit a low?

2950
03:11:05,800 --> 03:11:08,837
- Well, this is also a methodological
problem, right? In other words,

2951
03:11:08,921 --> 03:11:09,717
when you're looking

2952
03:11:09,800 --> 03:11:13,677
at a society that suddenly faces a bunch
of problems, and you could, you know,

2953
03:11:13,760 --> 03:11:18,860
reasonably make the case for a kind
of decline or a crisis, is your instinct,

2954
03:11:19,720 --> 03:11:23,337
it's your first instinct to suppose
that there must be something wrong in the

2955
03:11:23,420 --> 03:11:27,300
internal mechanisms of that society
that, you know, led it to fail,

2956
03:11:28,720 --> 03:11:31,647
which is what my field
has done traditionally.

2957
03:11:31,730 --> 03:11:35,217
Uh, in part because of the decline
and fall model, right, of this

2958
03:11:35,300 --> 03:11:39,850
society, we're kind of primed to think
that there was something wrong with it.

2959
03:11:40,000 --> 03:11:47,000
It's a long story. Or is it
reasonable to say that a society

2960
03:11:47,440 --> 03:11:53,160
that does not seem to have any, like,
particularly serious structural flaws

2961
03:11:54,360 --> 03:11:58,200
is hit by external,
you know, challenges that it

2962
03:11:58,480 --> 03:12:02,357
couldn't realistically have foreseen
or prepared for such that, you

2963
03:12:02,440 --> 03:12:05,490
know, it, it couldn't cope
with them and, as I said, buckled.

2964
03:12:06,480 --> 03:12:10,000
And I think that's what happened.
I think that's the,

2965
03:12:10,120 --> 03:12:14,840
main narrative. Not that there
weren't problems. There were. But

2966
03:12:16,220 --> 03:12:21,220
no state can, I mean, medieval
or ancient, can realistically survive

2967
03:12:22,080 --> 03:12:25,717
the simultaneous attack
of three very different kinds of

2968
03:12:25,800 --> 03:12:29,680
enemies, the Normans or,
like, these knights...

2969
03:12:29,840 --> 03:12:33,480
Like a new type of Western warfare
that is just all about, you know,

2970
03:12:33,620 --> 03:12:37,157
grinding the enemy to bits.
But who are also

2971
03:12:37,240 --> 03:12:39,900
terrorists. Like,
they're straight up terrorists.

2972
03:12:40,200 --> 03:12:41,727
- Normans are fascinating
because, I mean, there's...

2973
03:12:41,810 --> 03:12:43,287
... there's a Viking component
too- - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2974
03:12:43,370 --> 03:12:44,567
-... with the Normans. - Yeah, yeah.

2975
03:12:44,650 --> 03:12:49,880
- That's a whole... So they have, they
have three different kinds of enemies.

2976
03:12:50,080 --> 03:12:53,677
- Yes. The Pechenegs,
who's, you know, a, a

2977
03:12:53,760 --> 03:12:57,980
totally different type of, you know,
probably mostly nomadic horsemen.

2978
03:12:58,960 --> 03:13:02,840
And then the Seljuk Turks who are

2979
03:13:03,220 --> 03:13:06,937
also mostly nomadic horsemen,
but who are coming in from Central Asia

2980
03:13:07,020 --> 03:13:10,797
with vast reserves of manpower
behind them. In fact,

2981
03:13:10,880 --> 03:13:17,880
either intending to or, as it happens,
effecting a demographic change in not just

2982
03:13:18,420 --> 03:13:22,197
demographic, but ecological too,
because they basically, when they

2983
03:13:22,280 --> 03:13:25,660
move into Asia Minor, they're
transforming or terraforming,

2984
03:13:26,260 --> 03:13:29,380
Agricultural land into pasturage.

2985
03:13:29,760 --> 03:13:32,780
And, and they're just backed
by reserves of manpower

2986
03:13:32,880 --> 03:13:38,200
that no other enemy
of the empire has had yet.

2987
03:13:38,460 --> 03:13:41,390
Uh, so yeah, how do you, how do you
cope with these situations? I mean,

2988
03:13:41,474 --> 03:13:42,257
they're, it's very,

2989
03:13:42,340 --> 03:13:45,458
very difficult, and it's a wonder
that they survived it at all. Now,

2990
03:13:45,541 --> 03:13:46,157
they also have

2991
03:13:46,240 --> 03:13:50,097
internal problems, and I'm not gonna
sort of try to sweep these under the rug,

2992
03:13:50,180 --> 03:13:54,537
right? In particular, we're
seeing the end of the Macedonian

2993
03:13:54,620 --> 03:14:00,060
dynasty. This is a dynasty that had
lasted for about two centuries, and

2994
03:14:01,280 --> 03:14:05,177
this has a kind of politically
destabilizing effect. New

2995
03:14:05,260 --> 03:14:08,910
emperors, and there are a lot of,
like, childless old men in this period,

2996
03:14:09,100 --> 03:14:13,017
are relatively insecure. They don't
have this sort of a dynastic glitz behind

2997
03:14:13,100 --> 03:14:16,760
them, and so they're tending to,
to buy a lot of political support,

2998
03:14:17,180 --> 03:14:21,077
like hand out these exemptions,
give cash, you know, titles to

2999
03:14:21,160 --> 03:14:24,465
anyone who will support them, and this,
of course, causes a budget problem.

3000
03:14:24,548 --> 03:14:24,957
Like, they

3001
03:14:25,040 --> 03:14:27,690
don't have enough money after a while.
And then they have to start raising all

3002
03:14:27,773 --> 03:14:28,957
of these armies to deal with all of

3003
03:14:29,040 --> 03:14:32,897
these problems, and that just increases
the pressure on the budget, and

3004
03:14:32,980 --> 03:14:35,280
so there is an internal
problem as well, yeah.

3005
03:14:36,120 --> 03:14:42,540
- So you mentioned this loop
of thriving and then having to survive,

3006
03:14:42,660 --> 03:14:46,619
surviving, that happens a few times-...
throughout the history of the Roman

3007
03:14:46,703 --> 03:14:47,536
Empire.

3008
03:14:48,020 --> 03:14:50,970
It seems that societies
in general oscillate in that way.

3009
03:14:52,260 --> 03:14:56,050
Is there something particular you
could say about the oscillations,

3010
03:14:56,280 --> 03:14:58,530
the loops that the Roman
Empire goes through?

3011
03:14:59,460 --> 03:15:01,347
- Yes. Now, I don't think
this is an oscillation.

3012
03:15:01,430 --> 03:15:03,277
At least that's not how
I think of it in my own

3013
03:15:03,360 --> 03:15:09,980
mind. Um, so as I explained,
the crises that this, this

3014
03:15:10,220 --> 03:15:12,720
polity, this state,
this society that it undergoes

3015
03:15:13,580 --> 03:15:17,417
are dis- there are a discrete
number of them. I can tell

3016
03:15:17,500 --> 03:15:21,397
you what they are, and we've
talked about most of them so far.

3017
03:15:21,480 --> 03:15:28,357
They don't last very long, and they
are all sudden challenges that appear

3018
03:15:28,440 --> 03:15:31,390
from the outside. In other words,
they're exogenous shocks,

3019
03:15:32,400 --> 03:15:35,520
that they can't really have prepared for.

3020
03:15:36,560 --> 03:15:40,320
These shocks cause
massive territorial loss,

3021
03:15:41,040 --> 03:15:44,857
which requires adjustment,
right? But they don't last

3022
03:15:44,940 --> 03:15:48,620
that long. In other words,
the Romans almost always, at some point,

3023
03:15:48,940 --> 03:15:54,040
figure out how to hold a line, how
to consolidate their position, regroup-

3024
03:15:54,880 --> 03:16:00,460
and put their economy and their society
back on a trajectory of revival, regrowth,

3025
03:16:01,420 --> 03:16:08,420
and eventual reconquest. Always. Every
single time, except the last time, right?

3026
03:16:09,220 --> 03:16:14,660
And for me, this poses
the following kind of dilemma,

3027
03:16:15,790 --> 03:16:19,397
which I can answer.
And the dilemma is, should we define the

3028
03:16:19,480 --> 03:16:23,040
society by these brief
crises of exogenous shocks,

3029
03:16:23,600 --> 03:16:27,340
or should we define it
by the centuries-long, sometimes,

3030
03:16:27,500 --> 03:16:34,500
periods of regrowth, consolidation,
and stabilization, which are endogenous.

3031
03:16:36,500 --> 03:16:39,200
Nobody came from the outside
to help them rebuild.

3032
03:16:39,800 --> 03:16:43,640
Uh, and my answer
is unequivocally the latter. So

3033
03:16:43,840 --> 03:16:50,840
I see this as a society whose internal
organization primes it to stabilize

3034
03:16:51,800 --> 03:16:57,160
and embark on steady growth.
Slow and gradual, but steady.

3035
03:16:58,200 --> 03:17:02,037
And that's what I would like
my field to explain more, and I'm

3036
03:17:02,120 --> 03:17:05,697
gonna try to do so in the book
I mentioned that I'm writing

3037
03:17:05,780 --> 03:17:09,670
on, like, the longevity
or the resilience of this society.

3038
03:17:10,040 --> 03:17:13,570
And not try to center the crises,

3039
03:17:13,940 --> 03:17:16,940
which I see as being from the outside.
Like, these aren't...

3040
03:17:17,120 --> 03:17:20,197
Of course, they're part of its story,
but they're not coming from it.

3041
03:17:20,280 --> 03:17:24,077
What's coming from it is the stability,
and I think that's the more

3042
03:17:24,160 --> 03:17:25,810
interesting part of this society.

3043
03:17:26,760 --> 03:17:30,850
- Yeah, so the, you know,
these peak-to-peak histories,

3044
03:17:31,700 --> 03:17:35,377
as you can think of them, they miss the
machinery in the valleys. Institutions,

3045
03:17:35,460 --> 03:17:39,200
incentives, daily life, all of these
things. The politics, the religion.

3046
03:17:40,560 --> 03:17:44,210
You have a bunch of revisionist
history ideas in your work. You're

3047
03:17:44,300 --> 03:17:46,950
challenging the field.
- Yes. You could say that.

3048
03:17:47,480 --> 03:17:51,377
- In the best possible way.
So just to linger on it, what

3049
03:17:51,460 --> 03:17:53,958
are, what are some of the
things that historians miss?

3050
03:17:54,041 --> 03:17:55,417
So this is a big one, right,

3051
03:17:55,500 --> 03:17:59,417
that you're speaking to,
which is, like, focusing too much

3052
03:17:59,500 --> 03:18:05,700
on specific moments versus
on the broad structural underpinnings

3053
03:18:06,120 --> 03:18:07,880
of, of an empire, of a society.

3054
03:18:08,400 --> 03:18:11,800
- Right. So what you alluded
to there is a critique

3055
03:18:11,900 --> 03:18:15,777
of what we might call short histories
of Byzantium, which is a kind

3056
03:18:15,860 --> 03:18:21,157
of genre of a book. Right? This isn't
necessarily, like, what my other

3057
03:18:21,240 --> 03:18:24,997
revisionist ideas are about.
The more important ones are things

3058
03:18:25,080 --> 03:18:28,877
like the monarchical republic that we
talked about. In other words, that there's

3059
03:18:28,960 --> 03:18:32,370
actually a broader spectrum
of political participation.

3060
03:18:32,660 --> 03:18:35,697
Um, that emperors are having to look
over their shoulders all the time.

3061
03:18:35,781 --> 03:18:40,257
That there is a deeper matrix of Roman
Republican thought there. Like, that's one

3062
03:18:40,340 --> 03:18:44,090
revisionist idea.
Another one is about Roman identity,

3063
03:18:44,220 --> 03:18:45,497
just like who are these people?

3064
03:18:45,580 --> 03:18:49,397
And no, they are Romans, and in fact,
it's kind of an ethnic identity after a

3065
03:18:49,480 --> 03:18:52,260
certain point. Like, those kinds of ideas.

3066
03:18:53,110 --> 03:18:56,640
The criticism of the peak
to peak kinds of books.

3067
03:18:57,180 --> 03:19:01,117
So if you're trying to condense
1,200 years into 120 pages

3068
03:19:01,200 --> 03:19:03,520
or even, you know, even 200 pages,

3069
03:19:04,640 --> 03:19:08,500
there's no way to do so realistically
and give a sense of the whole

3070
03:19:08,620 --> 03:19:12,300
terrain. In other words, what these
books do is they go, they jump from,

3071
03:19:13,100 --> 03:19:16,980
from highlight to highlight, and these
highlights are sometimes things like,

3072
03:19:17,160 --> 03:19:22,740
you know, everything Justinian did because
it's so extravagant, to the crises.

3073
03:19:22,840 --> 03:19:26,200
The crises are, of course,
dramatic moments that you can't skip.

3074
03:19:27,160 --> 03:19:31,117
And you can't get a sense
from these books as to

3075
03:19:31,200 --> 03:19:34,917
how all of this is interconnected
in the valleys, right?

3076
03:19:35,000 --> 03:19:38,657
In the crags, down there. Like,
what are the mechanisms that are

3077
03:19:38,740 --> 03:19:42,527
connecting these peaks together?
And that's how I tried to write

3078
03:19:42,610 --> 03:19:46,197
the big history, The New Roman
Empire, is to tell the story by

3079
03:19:46,280 --> 03:19:50,217
casting light in those darker
places. That is, to show how

3080
03:19:50,300 --> 03:19:54,037
especially institutions
and ideologies sort of

3081
03:19:54,120 --> 03:19:58,057
tie, you know,
people's lives together. That

3082
03:19:58,140 --> 03:20:01,397
is, tie people to institutions
and to the broader history that surrounds

3083
03:20:01,480 --> 03:20:05,257
them. So that the reader
can get a sense when

3084
03:20:05,340 --> 03:20:09,540
I'm, when I'm recounting specific
events or either of, you know,

3085
03:20:10,880 --> 03:20:15,620
greatness or of a success or a failure,
that they can understand

3086
03:20:16,580 --> 03:20:20,297
roughly why these things are happening,
right? Look, there's no perfect

3087
03:20:20,380 --> 03:20:24,000
answer. A short book will just not
tell you these things. A long book,

3088
03:20:24,400 --> 03:20:25,860
well, is a long book.

3089
03:20:26,020 --> 03:20:28,986
- Well, in some sense, I mean, this,
in this, even in this very conversation,

3090
03:20:29,069 --> 03:20:29,957
I think we did a pretty

3091
03:20:30,040 --> 03:20:34,007
good job of looking at the valleys,
at the structure, at the institutions.

3092
03:20:34,090 --> 03:20:36,797
And that gives you a sense
of the whole underpinnings.

3093
03:20:36,880 --> 03:20:39,627
And so it's, it's beautiful.
It's a beautiful way to see history,

3094
03:20:39,710 --> 03:20:40,317
especially for

3095
03:20:40,400 --> 03:20:44,820
societies that have lasted as long as-...
as the, as the East Roman Empire has.

3096
03:20:44,940 --> 03:20:46,590
- But it did take us a few hours.

3097
03:20:46,680 --> 03:20:52,017
- Yes. - Yes. You're right. But it
requires that you actually spend some

3098
03:20:52,100 --> 03:20:55,437
time to look in there, yeah. - What's,
what's a few hours among friends?

3099
03:20:55,520 --> 03:20:57,260
- No, no, no, that's... I agree.

3100
03:20:58,920 --> 03:21:02,140
- Uh, so zooming out
and asking once again,

3101
03:21:03,220 --> 03:21:07,000
the old we're getting a little
close to last call at a bar,

3102
03:21:07,260 --> 03:21:10,517
I'm gonna ask you the big question.
We asked it before about the

3103
03:21:10,600 --> 03:21:15,140
collapse of the West Roman Empire.

3104
03:21:15,960 --> 03:21:22,872
When did the decline of the East
Roman Empire begin for you?

3105
03:21:22,955 --> 03:21:25,520
Throughout this loops,

3106
03:21:26,420 --> 03:21:32,900
when, if you were to predict, Would you be
able to say where this is gonna be over?

3107
03:21:33,900 --> 03:21:37,757
And what led to that decline and the

3108
03:21:37,840 --> 03:21:44,260
collapse? So of course,
the collapse is finally in 1453 AD.

3109
03:21:44,600 --> 03:21:49,020
- Right. That's actually a very
good question. In other words, um,

3110
03:21:50,180 --> 03:21:53,780
not looking at all of the previous
crises that caused loss of territory,

3111
03:21:54,320 --> 03:21:58,037
like, you know, you lose Egypt, you
lose Syria, you lose Palestine, you lose

3112
03:21:58,120 --> 03:22:01,837
Eastern Asia Minor, you lo- right?
But at what point could you

3113
03:22:01,920 --> 03:22:04,440
say there's no coming back from this?

3114
03:22:04,560 --> 03:22:10,390
Right? I would say early 14th century.
Somewhere between 1300 and 1350,

3115
03:22:11,280 --> 03:22:17,997
the sources of resilience begin
to dry up, and you have a number of

3116
03:22:18,080 --> 03:22:23,720
setbacks. They lose Asia Minor
to the Turks by 1300, roughly,

3117
03:22:24,560 --> 03:22:28,520
which means that you can
now no longer draw upon the

3118
03:22:28,640 --> 03:22:32,537
two wings, as it were,
the European side and

3119
03:22:32,620 --> 03:22:36,170
the Asian side, which they could
always do. They're confined to Europe.

3120
03:22:36,740 --> 03:22:40,617
And then you have a series
of civil wars, you have the Serbian

3121
03:22:40,700 --> 03:22:47,700
expansion and you have the Black Death,
and they never recover from that.

3122
03:22:48,900 --> 03:22:52,517
In 1300, you think of this,
you look at it and you think, "That's a

3123
03:22:52,600 --> 03:22:54,400
tiny little Balkan state."

3124
03:22:54,780 --> 03:22:58,657
Okay, it goes from Constantinople
to the Adriatic in this

3125
03:22:58,740 --> 03:23:02,730
just sort of ribbon, right, this,
this corridor that just stretches

3126
03:23:03,140 --> 03:23:07,820
across the Balkans. And yet,
it's not that much smaller than England

3127
03:23:09,040 --> 03:23:12,917
and has about as much, if not more,
revenue, because they're still able

3128
03:23:13,000 --> 03:23:14,860
to raise cash, because taxes.

3129
03:23:15,710 --> 03:23:19,740
Right? So the emperor's still
able to pull in a lot of gold. Um,

3130
03:23:20,920 --> 03:23:24,437
and his territory is not,
you know, completely insignificant.

3131
03:23:24,520 --> 03:23:27,115
It's not what it, you know,
the Roman Empire used to be.

3132
03:23:27,199 --> 03:23:28,437
But I don't think that it's

3133
03:23:28,520 --> 03:23:32,237
completely lost. Then they
have some civil wars. Then one

3134
03:23:32,320 --> 03:23:35,877
emperor- um, a rebel makes a deal
with the Serbs, surrenders half that

3135
03:23:35,960 --> 03:23:38,310
territory. Okay, after that, game over.

3136
03:23:39,420 --> 03:23:44,340
What's surprising is it takes the Turks
that long. 1453, that's another century.

3137
03:23:44,460 --> 03:23:48,277
Right? It didn't need to be.
It looks like they might have

3138
03:23:48,360 --> 03:23:53,100
had it wrapped up like 50 years
after- uh, you know, like by 1400.

3139
03:23:54,000 --> 03:23:58,627
But then accidental events happened.
This is Timur, Tamerlane comes-

3140
03:23:58,710 --> 03:24:02,637
... from Central Asia, trounces the Turks,
breaks up their empire. So they go

3141
03:24:02,720 --> 03:24:06,257
into a cycle of, you know,
rebuilding, and so that's why it takes

3142
03:24:06,340 --> 03:24:11,820
another 50 years. Anyway,
but I'd say by the 1340s, game over.

3143
03:24:12,600 --> 03:24:19,260
- And so why did it collapse? What are the
things in the ground, when you zoom out,

3144
03:24:20,500 --> 03:24:25,840
the thing that ate away at the,
I like this term, sources of resilience?

3145
03:24:26,320 --> 03:24:29,377
- Oh, foreign invasions. There's no
question. It's just- - It's just invasions

3146
03:24:29,460 --> 03:24:33,377
-...it's foreign invasions,
those which they could

3147
03:24:33,460 --> 03:24:36,040
not cope with.
They coped with lots of them.

3148
03:24:37,140 --> 03:24:40,900
But, you know, it,
all it takes is to lose to one,

3149
03:24:41,100 --> 03:24:44,700
and you lose some part of your territory.
And if you keep losing enough,

3150
03:24:45,780 --> 03:24:49,030
you won't have anything to fall
back on, and that's what happens.

3151
03:24:49,620 --> 03:24:55,240
- So really, you know, if there's
no significant external invasions,

3152
03:24:56,320 --> 03:25:01,840
the East Roman Empire,
the fundamentals, the taxation system,

3153
03:25:03,340 --> 03:25:07,217
the way the, the policies were developed,
the way the politics was done, the way

3154
03:25:07,300 --> 03:25:10,850
the representation was done,
all of that, this empire could have lasted

3155
03:25:12,100 --> 03:25:18,800
for another thousand years. - Absolutely.
I'm absolutely convinced of this because

3156
03:25:20,680 --> 03:25:24,120
you never see movements to split away.

3157
03:25:24,940 --> 03:25:28,677
That is, there's no separatist movements,
at least not on the part of

3158
03:25:28,760 --> 03:25:32,697
any Roman provincials. There's one
separatist movement, which is Bulgaria.

3159
03:25:32,780 --> 03:25:36,657
We mentioned Bulgaria was conquered,
right, in 1018. There's

3160
03:25:36,740 --> 03:25:39,940
a couple of independentist
movements rebellions. Um,

3161
03:25:40,320 --> 03:25:43,880
eventually one succeeds in 1185,
so just under two centuries.

3162
03:25:44,260 --> 03:25:46,720
So Bulgaria is the only
part of this empire that

3163
03:25:47,560 --> 03:25:49,860
actively seeks to break away and does so.

3164
03:25:50,840 --> 03:25:54,647
But for the rest of the 1,200 years,
you don't find provincials wanting

3165
03:25:54,730 --> 03:25:57,980
to leave this system. However
much they complain about the taxes,

3166
03:25:58,780 --> 03:26:02,680
they don't want to leave, and they make
no move to do so. You also never have

3167
03:26:02,780 --> 03:26:09,640
a moment when the center loses
its ability to tax its territories,

3168
03:26:10,300 --> 03:26:14,177
right? You don't have, like,
widespread peasant uprisings or

3169
03:26:14,260 --> 03:26:17,710
provinc- or, right, agricultural
rebellions or these kinds of things,

3170
03:26:18,400 --> 03:26:22,317
Which happens in every other one
of these empires. They also never decide

3171
03:26:22,400 --> 03:26:26,200
to partition it. The Franks partition
theirs, right, like after Charlemagne.

3172
03:26:26,760 --> 03:26:29,940
No. There are no, like, Roman

3173
03:26:30,080 --> 03:26:33,597
warlords that try to carve out
a piece of the territory for

3174
03:26:33,680 --> 03:26:37,640
themselves and rule it independent.
Nope, that doesn't happen either. So

3175
03:26:37,740 --> 03:26:41,680
if you're looking at the kinds
of factors that cause states to fail,

3176
03:26:41,860 --> 03:26:46,460
fragment, you know, become
ungovernable, these never happen.

3177
03:26:47,000 --> 03:26:50,560
- This is so incredible.
This is truly incredible.

3178
03:26:51,520 --> 03:26:55,397
In the history of human civilization,
just an incredible study of

3179
03:26:55,480 --> 03:26:59,190
what human societies can form.
So, so what, what,

3180
03:26:59,840 --> 03:27:04,337
what, what are the whys? Why?
Why? Why was it so stable?

3181
03:27:04,420 --> 03:27:07,520
- Well, now look, there are
other stable... Like, for example,

3182
03:27:08,420 --> 03:27:11,640
The, the British monarchy.
That's been around for quite a while.

3183
03:27:11,770 --> 03:27:11,957
- Yeah, that's true.

3184
03:27:12,040 --> 03:27:17,220
- Right? States like Portugal,
Japan, they have one thing in common.

3185
03:27:18,450 --> 03:27:20,300
They're all tucked away at the edges.

3186
03:27:20,940 --> 03:27:24,237
Like, they're off, they're little islands
or whatever. They're not like, right?

3187
03:27:24,320 --> 03:27:28,320
We're talking about a society
that was right in the- - In the, yeah

3188
03:27:28,420 --> 03:27:32,270
-... middle of one of the main corridors
of empire building and new religions

3189
03:27:32,540 --> 03:27:36,457
in the world. This is the most
dangerous neighborhood, right,

3190
03:27:36,540 --> 03:27:38,570
that you can possibly live in.

3191
03:27:38,660 --> 03:27:42,497
So no wonder it didn't survive.
Like it would've been

3192
03:27:42,580 --> 03:27:46,400
extraordinary if it had.
But absent those forces,

3193
03:27:47,580 --> 03:27:51,280
I don't see any forces of internal

3194
03:27:51,400 --> 03:27:56,397
decomposition that would have
imperiled it, you know, significantly.

3195
03:27:56,480 --> 03:28:00,177
- So what, I mean we've talked about
a lot of it, but what, just to, like,

3196
03:28:00,260 --> 03:28:04,860
return to it, why was there no internal

3197
03:28:05,990 --> 03:28:09,730
sources of decomposition.
Like why, why did it work so well?

3198
03:28:09,890 --> 03:28:13,690
Why did the people feel represented?
Yes, they— By the way, you talked about

3199
03:28:14,030 --> 03:28:17,417
how they complain about the taxes, which
is one of the signs of a healthy society,

3200
03:28:17,501 --> 03:28:19,676
that we... It's like
complaining about the weather.

3201
03:28:19,759 --> 03:28:21,627
The fact that you complain about the taxes

3202
03:28:21,710 --> 03:28:24,951
actually means that you're happy with
the taxes, kind of counterintuitively,

3203
03:28:25,034 --> 03:28:28,407
or it's not too bad. You're just
complaining as part of the system.

3204
03:28:28,490 --> 03:28:33,090
Anyway, but why? Why, why did it work
so well? Why did everybody get along—

3205
03:28:33,390 --> 03:28:37,987
- Oh, no, they— -... feel represented? No,
not get along. Not in a, in a silly way.

3206
03:28:38,070 --> 03:28:41,947
I mean, sufficiently to where
they wouldn't... Warlords wouldn't

3207
03:28:42,030 --> 03:28:44,030
rise and break apart the system and—

3208
03:28:44,210 --> 03:28:48,247
... or if there was those kinds of forces,
they would come back together.

3209
03:28:48,330 --> 03:28:50,880
Like, why is this such
a great self-healing system?

3210
03:28:51,270 --> 03:28:53,687
- So you're exactly right.
So sufficient is the key word.

3211
03:28:53,770 --> 03:28:55,167
We don't want to idealize this,

3212
03:28:55,250 --> 03:28:58,073
right? These aren't, like,
they're not just dancing in the streets,

3213
03:28:58,156 --> 03:29:02,410
holding hands and then direct... It's so—
Even when it comes to the tax system,

3214
03:29:02,630 --> 03:29:06,547
they are complaining all the time. Of
course, they're doing so because they know

3215
03:29:06,630 --> 03:29:08,810
that complaining gets you things.

3216
03:29:08,950 --> 03:29:11,888
There's no disincentive to complaining.
You might not get what you want,

3217
03:29:11,971 --> 03:29:12,807
or you might get it,

3218
03:29:12,890 --> 03:29:16,750
but you know, no harm will come to you.
So they're complaining all the

3219
03:29:16,850 --> 03:29:20,790
time. They have all of these civil wars.
They're like, "Okay." Um,

3220
03:29:21,590 --> 03:29:25,370
so I think I would give
you a two-part answer, so

3221
03:29:25,970 --> 03:29:28,810
really quickly, as to why
this held together so well.

3222
03:29:30,050 --> 03:29:33,667
First is that an extraordinary effort was

3223
03:29:33,750 --> 03:29:37,587
made by the authorities to persuade
their subjects that they were

3224
03:29:37,670 --> 03:29:41,570
ruling on their behalf,
and I think, for the most part,

3225
03:29:41,690 --> 03:29:45,467
actually tended to do so.
And the second is that it

3226
03:29:45,550 --> 03:29:49,450
had a very tightly unified identity

3227
03:29:49,550 --> 03:29:53,270
as Roman and as Orthodox.
In other words, for the most,

3228
03:29:53,790 --> 03:29:58,303
most time, they knew that they were
surrounded by enemies who were not those

3229
03:29:58,387 --> 03:30:02,547
things. And they did not want to live
under the power of non-Romans and

3230
03:30:02,630 --> 03:30:07,950
non-Christian people. And so those two
factors combined, I think, gave everybody

3231
03:30:08,750 --> 03:30:12,550
reason to hold it together.
The alternatives were worse.

3232
03:30:13,310 --> 03:30:17,217
- Yeah. I mean, that's a really brilliant
summary, and I think we should mention

3233
03:30:17,300 --> 03:30:20,647
that both the rhetoric and the action
are important. I think you've

3234
03:30:20,730 --> 03:30:24,158
articulated that rhetoric
is really powerful,

3235
03:30:24,241 --> 03:30:26,977
like stating over and over and over-

3236
03:30:27,060 --> 03:30:30,787
... that you represent the people, that
you're acting on behalf of the people and

3237
03:30:30,870 --> 03:30:33,517
doing the action. But it's not
enough to actually do the action.

3238
03:30:33,601 --> 03:30:34,667
You would think that's all

3239
03:30:34,750 --> 03:30:37,507
Machiavelli says that's the only
thing that matters. But no.

3240
03:30:37,590 --> 03:30:42,367
It's the rhetoric actually has a lot
of power-... because it is a uniting idea-

3241
03:30:42,450 --> 03:30:46,410
... an ideal that propagates
through time, and it pacifies you. It

3242
03:30:46,550 --> 03:30:49,750
makes you, it puts you at peace.
Rhetoric is important.

3243
03:30:50,030 --> 03:30:54,610
- I'll give you an example.
As an academic administrator, right?

3244
03:30:54,930 --> 03:30:57,730
I mean, I was chair of a
department for years and years.

3245
03:30:58,350 --> 03:31:05,350
There's a difference between a dean who
says, "Sorry, bad budget situation. We're

3246
03:31:07,370 --> 03:31:12,390
just going to have to cut your programs,"
on the one hand, and a dean who says,

3247
03:31:13,850 --> 03:31:17,627
"I am fully on board with what
you're trying to accomplish with

3248
03:31:17,710 --> 03:31:22,670
these programs. I am a defender
of the humanities. Unfortunately,

3249
03:31:23,550 --> 03:31:26,999
we have this budget situation, and we're
going to have to cut some of the programs.

3250
03:31:27,082 --> 03:31:31,927
But I assure you, the moment
I'm in this with you together-

3251
03:31:32,010 --> 03:31:34,810
... the moment we find the funds,
we will restore them."

3252
03:31:35,670 --> 03:31:40,568
Those two just rhetorical strategies,
they're aiming at the same practical

3253
03:31:40,651 --> 03:31:41,485
outcome,

3254
03:31:42,090 --> 03:31:46,610
will produce very different levels
of compliance-... right, and consensus.

3255
03:31:47,110 --> 03:31:49,460
- And I should say that
there's subtlety there.

3256
03:31:49,600 --> 03:31:54,710
The best rhetoric in that context,
and maybe in the East Roman Empire,

3257
03:31:55,570 --> 03:31:57,120
is you also have to believe it.

3258
03:31:57,490 --> 03:32:00,627
- Yes. It has to be credible.
You can't just say it and then not do it.

3259
03:32:00,710 --> 03:32:03,359
- But one of the things I've
learned about humans, just having,

3260
03:32:03,442 --> 03:32:04,742
doing this little podcast,

3261
03:32:05,170 --> 03:32:09,110
is that people could-- Like,
the best way to say a thing,

3262
03:32:09,950 --> 03:32:12,647
a powerful thing, is to really believe it.

3263
03:32:12,730 --> 03:32:16,210
And so, like, this is clearly
one of the things that made

3264
03:32:16,990 --> 03:32:23,370
the Roman Empire work, is doing
the action is the best way to make the

3265
03:32:23,530 --> 03:32:26,210
rhetoric powerful and effective.

3266
03:32:26,350 --> 03:32:29,950
- Yeah. This is sort of what
Aristotle says about tyrants.

3267
03:32:30,790 --> 03:32:34,166
In The Politics, Aristotle's giving
essentially advice to tyrants on how

3268
03:32:34,250 --> 03:32:38,487
to protect themselves because tyrants
are usually hated and are killed in coups,

3269
03:32:38,570 --> 03:32:42,487
right? And he says, "Well, how-- You
know, essentially, how do you manage

3270
03:32:42,570 --> 03:32:47,930
to secure yourself when you're a tyrant?"
Well, you know, you can start

3271
03:32:48,980 --> 03:32:52,887
by maybe, you know, obeying the laws
or making sure that your subjects obey

3272
03:32:52,970 --> 03:32:56,787
the laws and, you know, maybe work for
the interests of yourself. Essentially,

3273
03:32:56,870 --> 03:32:59,770
he's telling them to kind
of become benevolent kings.

3274
03:33:00,570 --> 03:33:04,437
And the best way to persuade your subjects
that you're legitimate, benevolent

3275
03:33:04,520 --> 03:33:07,630
kings is to be that.

3276
03:33:08,730 --> 03:33:14,090
- So what, from all of this, from this
2,200-year history of the Roman Empire,

3277
03:33:14,950 --> 03:33:20,650
what lessons can we draw for modern times?
Now we're sitting in America, this

3278
03:33:21,690 --> 03:33:25,830
young empire. I know we're not
calling it an empire, but, you know.

3279
03:33:26,030 --> 03:33:29,024
- Lots of people are calling it an empire.
I thought it was sort of taboo. Yeah,

3280
03:33:29,107 --> 03:33:33,387
in the 20th century, it was like,
"Is America an empire now?" But like, I

3281
03:33:33,470 --> 03:33:40,470
think since the Iraq War, like since 2003,
I've seen at least very casual uses of

3282
03:33:41,490 --> 03:33:45,367
America and empire in the same,
you know, sentence without any kind of

3283
03:33:45,450 --> 03:33:48,650
hand-wringing. - Is it ever
called that in a academic setting?

3284
03:33:49,030 --> 03:33:51,267
- Yes. - I mean, it's technically,
I guess you could say- - Oh, yeah

3285
03:33:51,350 --> 03:33:55,580
-... given, given the expanse
of the military bases and,

3286
03:33:56,650 --> 03:34:00,427
and the military might
and and the way that represents

3287
03:34:00,510 --> 03:34:02,390
itself in the geopolitical context.

3288
03:34:02,510 --> 03:34:05,410
- There are books published
all the time that unironically

3289
03:34:06,070 --> 03:34:09,567
Discuss America as an empire
in various ways. Yeah, no.

3290
03:34:09,650 --> 03:34:11,147
- By the way, both positive and negative.

3291
03:34:11,230 --> 03:34:14,124
So when you're saying a positive thing
about America, calling it an empire,

3292
03:34:14,208 --> 03:34:15,458
and when you're saying it

3293
03:34:15,570 --> 03:34:18,487
to criticize America, you call
it an empire. Yeah, you're right.

3294
03:34:18,570 --> 03:34:20,944
- Yeah. I mean, most academic books
aren't trying to do, like, either.

3295
03:34:21,027 --> 03:34:24,247
They're just trying
to analyze a situation.

3296
03:34:24,330 --> 03:34:31,070
- What lessons about, about representing
the people, about flourishing,

3297
03:34:32,310 --> 03:34:33,990
about stability can we draw?

3298
03:34:34,330 --> 03:34:39,630
- I will say that, just drawing on what
we were talking about a moment ago,

3299
03:34:40,510 --> 03:34:45,610
that investing in institutions that work
for the majority of your subjects,

3300
03:34:46,490 --> 03:34:48,909
even if indirectly, like they
have to pay a cost for them,

3301
03:34:48,992 --> 03:34:50,387
but you have to explain to them

3302
03:34:50,470 --> 03:34:56,690
why they're paying that cost, is to the
benefit of the ruling classes as well.

3303
03:34:57,710 --> 03:35:00,830
Because you're-- ideally,
you're thinking about

3304
03:35:01,270 --> 03:35:04,630
long-term success and not just your own

3305
03:35:04,750 --> 03:35:08,540
short-term, you know, gain.
And I think that's what this society

3306
03:35:08,810 --> 03:35:10,923
tends to do well.
You know, the Romans generally,

3307
03:35:11,007 --> 03:35:12,847
you know how they built roads for the,

3308
03:35:12,930 --> 03:35:16,807
the centuries and the millennia.
They built institutions too. You know,

3309
03:35:16,890 --> 03:35:20,007
one of the institutions they built
was, like, the Christian Church.

3310
03:35:20,090 --> 03:35:22,350
Like, they build things to last.

3311
03:35:22,610 --> 03:35:26,460
Um, and I think that's a, that's a good
lesson beyond even the roads. I think

3312
03:35:26,830 --> 03:35:32,010
institutions that explain,
you know, to people why they exist,

3313
03:35:32,890 --> 03:35:37,347
is... Yeah, I think we could
we could use some of that.

3314
03:35:37,430 --> 03:35:41,267
- And also the first point you made
about the East Roman Empire. I think

3315
03:35:41,350 --> 03:35:45,270
you've said that US foreign
policy sometimes has a, quite a

3316
03:35:45,370 --> 03:35:50,290
large gap between the rhetoric and the in
modern times, the rhetoric and the action.

3317
03:35:50,590 --> 03:35:54,587
- Oh, yeah. Yeah. - And so that's
to the Machiavelli's point that we want to

3318
03:35:54,670 --> 03:35:59,050
maybe narrow that gap for a successful
empire, for a successful nation.

3319
03:35:59,890 --> 03:36:01,830
The rhetoric has to match the action.

3320
03:36:03,030 --> 03:36:03,137
- Yes.

3321
03:36:03,220 --> 03:36:09,890
- And it doesn't quite for some of the
foreign policy engagements in the world.

3322
03:36:10,210 --> 03:36:14,127
- So in the context of the society
I study, let's say the army

3323
03:36:14,210 --> 03:36:17,670
is the single largest expense,
is doing pretty much what

3324
03:36:18,530 --> 03:36:21,827
the emperors say that it's doing,
which is protecting its subjects.

3325
03:36:21,910 --> 03:36:25,607
That's actually what it's doing most
of the time. Not all the time. So, for

3326
03:36:25,690 --> 03:36:29,487
example, emperors will sometimes
take the armies out on a

3327
03:36:29,570 --> 03:36:33,427
raid or an expedition, you know,
crack some skulls, gather some

3328
03:36:33,510 --> 03:36:36,622
plunder, come back, and this is done
to glorify the emperor. Like, yeah.

3329
03:36:36,706 --> 03:36:37,507
Yeah, yeah, this,

3330
03:36:37,590 --> 03:36:42,850
this does happen. But for the most part,
they're doing that, not much else.

3331
03:36:43,330 --> 03:36:46,850
And actually, in pre-modern
context, it's very difficult to

3332
03:36:46,990 --> 03:36:50,807
operate like, you know, shadow
foreign policies and things like

3333
03:36:50,890 --> 03:36:53,090
this. Like, it's just not part of the-

3334
03:36:53,210 --> 03:37:00,210
... It's not in the cards.
But America in particular has such

3335
03:37:00,710 --> 03:37:04,550
a history of proclaiming
the loftiest goals.

3336
03:37:05,850 --> 03:37:10,690
It just, sometimes just, you know,
breathtakingly implausible.

3337
03:37:11,390 --> 03:37:15,047
- Plus the incredible engineering behind
the military industrial complex, so

3338
03:37:15,130 --> 03:37:18,810
America's very good at creating-...
to the flamethrowers.

3339
03:37:19,830 --> 03:37:25,610
- Yes. - The technologies—... of war,
and so the lofty goals combined with

3340
03:37:25,710 --> 03:37:27,887
just a lot of profit
that could be made on-

3341
03:37:27,970 --> 03:37:31,927
... the technologies of war creates a very
difficult situation to navigate, where

3342
03:37:32,010 --> 03:37:33,790
the gap naturally widens.

3343
03:37:34,520 --> 03:37:38,360
- Yeah. I don't think most of the
world even believes, you know, what

3344
03:37:38,650 --> 03:37:42,790
American leaders say their goals are,
especially when it comes to, like, war.

3345
03:37:43,830 --> 03:37:45,680
Like spreading democracy? No, really?

3346
03:37:46,670 --> 03:37:50,110
I remember when they were
trying to convince me,

3347
03:37:51,310 --> 03:37:56,190
us, that the invasion
of Afghanistan was a feminist war.

3348
03:37:57,150 --> 03:37:58,347
- Oh, that was a thing, huh?

3349
03:37:58,430 --> 03:38:02,407
- Oh, yes. They were to liberate the women
from the burqas or whatever, and, like,

3350
03:38:02,490 --> 03:38:06,187
the news was just flooded with, like,
how terrible women have it in Afghanistan.

3351
03:38:06,270 --> 03:38:09,827
It's like, you're really trying
to persuade me that that's why you're

3352
03:38:09,910 --> 03:38:13,547
sending armed forces— like... Anyway.

3353
03:38:13,630 --> 03:38:16,618
- I think there's a lot, a lot of wake-up
calls about the war in Afghanistan

3354
03:38:16,701 --> 03:38:17,547
and Iraq, where people

3355
03:38:17,630 --> 03:38:21,767
realized that there is that gap
between the rhetoric and the action.

3356
03:38:21,850 --> 03:38:26,400
And I mean, that's how, because
of a lot of people waking up to that,

3357
03:38:27,360 --> 03:38:31,957
they create pressure on the government
to close that gap, and that's—

3358
03:38:32,040 --> 03:38:33,937
... how we kind of navigate this—

3359
03:38:34,020 --> 03:38:37,407
... complicated world, but it's
a costly one. I mean, these, these were

3360
03:38:37,490 --> 03:38:41,650
extremely costly wars—...
on every front, on every measure.

3361
03:38:42,390 --> 03:38:45,640
- Yep, but the same lesson
was learned in, like, the Vietnam War,

3362
03:38:46,170 --> 03:38:48,700
and that was such a disaster that

3363
03:38:49,930 --> 03:38:53,467
essentially they had to switch to--
abandon the conscript army, switch to a

3364
03:38:53,550 --> 03:38:57,450
professional army. And,
like, it took them so long

3365
03:38:57,690 --> 03:39:01,430
to be able to, like, wage,
you know, these empire wars again

3366
03:39:02,190 --> 03:39:05,947
because of the sheer damage that the
Vietnam War did to the credibility

3367
03:39:06,030 --> 03:39:09,727
of the military leadership
in the country, right? This

3368
03:39:09,810 --> 03:39:13,770
never happens in, like,
this doesn't happen in Constantinople.

3369
03:39:14,390 --> 03:39:18,187
I can lose a w-- You can be criticized for
losing a war. That's, that's one thing,

3370
03:39:18,270 --> 03:39:22,990
right? But that you're using the army
to do some, like... You know. No.

3371
03:39:23,430 --> 03:39:27,270
- Some of this does have to do
with the, the functioning of

3372
03:39:28,490 --> 03:39:31,967
of how democracy works, the,
the temporary nature of the

3373
03:39:32,050 --> 03:39:34,060
leaderships, and that they're very-

3374
03:39:34,810 --> 03:39:39,710
... short-sighted because of the nature
of the elected position or the executive.

3375
03:39:40,750 --> 03:39:43,470
I mean, that's what we're trying
to figure out as a human civilization,

3376
03:39:43,554 --> 03:39:47,127
how to do this for, in this particular
case, the democracy thing.

3377
03:39:47,210 --> 03:39:48,807
- There's no right answer, and by the way,

3378
03:39:48,890 --> 03:39:51,067
I don't wanna be ruled
by kings or monarchs or emperors

3379
03:39:51,150 --> 03:39:55,090
either. So it's like I wouldn't
necessarily support that. I'm not

3380
03:39:55,630 --> 03:39:58,987
advocating here for anything. I'm just
trying to explain. But you're exactly

3381
03:39:59,070 --> 03:40:05,207
right. You know, we, we want democracy.
We want leaders whom we can eject

3382
03:40:05,290 --> 03:40:06,810
every four or five years-

3383
03:40:07,030 --> 03:40:10,707
... which includes sometimes their, their,
you know, teams of experts and policy

3384
03:40:10,790 --> 03:40:13,630
designers and whatever,
and that comes at a cost too.

3385
03:40:14,190 --> 03:40:17,900
- So you, you said that. You know,
the Roman Empire, maybe ancient Greece,

3386
03:40:18,040 --> 03:40:24,100
maybe the societies before that,
and now societies after that, the society

3387
03:40:24,200 --> 03:40:29,020
we live in are very different.
And so applying the lessons of history,

3388
03:40:29,840 --> 03:40:34,720
you have to be careful doing so.
But are there things that are the same

3389
03:40:35,920 --> 03:40:37,140
with us humans?

3390
03:40:37,990 --> 03:40:41,710
So of everything you've studied
across hundreds of years and centuries,

3391
03:40:42,200 --> 03:40:45,320
are there aspects of human
nature that kind of persist?

3392
03:40:46,080 --> 03:40:49,270
- So look, intellectually,
I have gone through,

3393
03:40:50,100 --> 03:40:53,440
periods when, like when
I was a grad student,

3394
03:40:54,320 --> 03:40:58,177
it was, you know, this was kind
of when postmodernism, what

3395
03:40:58,260 --> 03:41:02,137
we might call loosely,
was kind of alive and well and not-

3396
03:41:02,220 --> 03:41:04,920
... had not yet been kicked in the pants.

3397
03:41:05,020 --> 03:41:08,940
Um, it was very common
to find colleagues who

3398
03:41:09,200 --> 03:41:12,645
did not believe that there was such
a thing as, let's say, human nature.

3399
03:41:12,728 --> 03:41:16,180
In other words, that, let's say,
the parameters of human psychology

3400
03:41:16,740 --> 03:41:19,004
are, you know, yes,
there's considerable variation,

3401
03:41:19,087 --> 03:41:24,300
but they're within a certain set of,
you know, norms. Like it's not--

3402
03:41:25,380 --> 03:41:28,030
We're, we're not gonna
behave like different species.

3403
03:41:29,020 --> 03:41:32,857
And, and that they did
not believe that there

3404
03:41:32,940 --> 03:41:36,640
was such a thing. In other words,
that all of human history is essentially

3405
03:41:36,880 --> 03:41:40,520
a series of incommensurate
slices of difference,

3406
03:41:41,200 --> 03:41:45,137
right? That you just couldn't go
from one to the next. And I think it's a

3407
03:41:45,220 --> 03:41:47,792
very problematic view for all
kinds of reasons, like how,

3408
03:41:47,876 --> 03:41:49,157
how small do you slice these

3409
03:41:49,240 --> 03:41:53,897
slices? I mean, it... And no,
I'm with Thucydides on this one-

3410
03:41:53,980 --> 03:41:57,797
... Who says that, you know, more or less
human beings are gonna, more or less,

3411
03:41:57,880 --> 03:42:01,517
they're, they're going to be act-- Right?
They love, and they hate, and they have

3412
03:42:01,600 --> 03:42:05,580
ambitions, and they're incompetent,
and, you know, you find the whole

3413
03:42:05,800 --> 03:42:08,540
range of, you know,
the whole gamut of diversity-

3414
03:42:08,720 --> 03:42:12,637
... Pretty much in every, in any group of,
of about 20 or 30 people, you're gonna

3415
03:42:12,720 --> 03:42:16,657
find the same kinds of types.
Now, culture then comes in and,

3416
03:42:16,740 --> 03:42:19,443
you know, tweaks things in all
kinds of weird ways, and that's,

3417
03:42:19,526 --> 03:42:20,677
as a historian, what I like

3418
03:42:20,760 --> 03:42:27,540
to study. I like just how the culture
will modify, will set the dials, right?

3419
03:42:27,810 --> 03:42:30,267
But that the dials go
from one to 10 most people-

3420
03:42:30,350 --> 03:42:31,797
... it's like, yeah,
yeah, yeah, I think so.

3421
03:42:31,880 --> 03:42:34,230
- But every once in a while,
there'll be a few,

3422
03:42:35,300 --> 03:42:39,137
A few folks who come along,
whether it's Steve Jobs with a turtleneck

3423
03:42:39,220 --> 03:42:43,160
or some guy with a weird mustache or

3424
03:42:43,880 --> 03:42:47,560
with a funny hat, and those
can turn the tides of history.

3425
03:42:47,700 --> 03:42:49,300
- I think so. Occasionally, yes.

3426
03:42:49,440 --> 03:42:54,480
- But they're just ultra skilled
at the right time-... at the right moment.

3427
03:42:54,860 --> 03:42:58,757
- Oh, I believe that too. Oh, yeah.
In other words, I don't-- I also don't

3428
03:42:58,840 --> 03:43:02,060
think that, that cultural
systems or ideologies are so

3429
03:43:02,820 --> 03:43:06,567
effectively totalitarian that they sort
of colonize the mind of every person.

3430
03:43:06,650 --> 03:43:10,277
And so everyone in a culture
is just like a clone. No, you

3431
03:43:10,360 --> 03:43:13,110
encounter this sometimes in,
in historical scholarship.

3432
03:43:13,500 --> 03:43:16,045
And, no, I think people can
sometimes just think for themselves,

3433
03:43:16,129 --> 03:43:17,317
or they can think outside the

3434
03:43:17,400 --> 03:43:21,050
box, and they can do all kinds of things.
And, and I always wanna keep my

3435
03:43:21,520 --> 03:43:26,157
mind open to that possibility when I'm
encountering historical agents. Yeah.

3436
03:43:26,240 --> 03:43:28,690
- So just because you've
seen this grand history,

3437
03:43:29,560 --> 03:43:34,920
I apologize for the ridiculous question,
but if we look at the entirety of Earth,

3438
03:43:35,840 --> 03:43:38,480
and we fast-forward
a million years from now-

3439
03:43:39,360 --> 03:43:40,193
- Oof

3440
03:43:40,720 --> 03:43:43,980
-... and the, and the history
of life on Earth is written,

3441
03:43:44,740 --> 03:43:48,840
do you think we're at the very
beginning of human history?

3442
03:43:50,320 --> 03:43:53,880
Or is, are we in the middle,
or are we close to the end?

3443
03:43:54,860 --> 03:44:01,010
- A million years from now. Um, I mean,
I can't project or predict anything like a

3444
03:44:01,120 --> 03:44:01,953
year from now.

3445
03:44:02,640 --> 03:44:06,620
And I've become actually increasingly
skeptical that I can do so at least.

3446
03:44:07,320 --> 03:44:13,420
However, so I don't know about
beginning, middle, and end. Um, I--

3447
03:44:14,240 --> 03:44:18,257
It's easier to think in terms
of like, like numbered phases.

3448
03:44:18,340 --> 03:44:20,757
Like significantly different
phases of human history.

3449
03:44:20,840 --> 03:44:22,690
And I would say we're
probably in the third.

3450
03:44:22,773 --> 03:44:24,773
I think there've only been three phases.

3451
03:44:25,220 --> 03:44:28,280
The first one being sort
of hunter-gatherer period, which--

3452
03:44:28,880 --> 03:44:31,680
...that lasted for the majority
of human history so far.

3453
03:44:31,880 --> 03:44:35,757
Right? Then there's the agricultural
revolution, basically. And

3454
03:44:35,840 --> 03:44:39,348
this is when you start to produce
surpluses that create more complex

3455
03:44:39,432 --> 03:44:40,265
societies.

3456
03:44:40,940 --> 03:44:46,027
And we're now living through
a technological-- first industrial, now,

3457
03:44:46,111 --> 03:44:48,397
you know-- - Yeah.
You can throw it all in the same bucket.

3458
03:44:48,480 --> 03:44:49,587
-...all kinds of tech-- -
Industrial, technological.

3459
03:44:49,670 --> 03:44:53,637
- Yeah. Industrial, technological. Which
is modifying the parameters of what it

3460
03:44:53,720 --> 03:44:56,420
is that human beings
can do and possibly be.

3461
03:44:56,880 --> 03:45:00,920
And who knows where this will go.
But I see these as very distinct,

3462
03:45:01,780 --> 03:45:05,437
In many ways. It's all human
beings-- - Yeah, it's all humans--

3463
03:45:05,520 --> 03:45:06,037
-...but very different contexts.

3464
03:45:06,120 --> 03:45:11,340
- But they're almost modifying themselves.
So the question is, is there a fourth?

3465
03:45:12,680 --> 03:45:14,757
Is there going to be a-- - Yeah,
I'm pretty sure there will be.

3466
03:45:14,840 --> 03:45:18,800
- And what does that look like? And is
it-- When they look back at the third,

3467
03:45:20,100 --> 03:45:22,640
would they still see us as the same

3468
03:45:23,900 --> 03:45:27,160
as them, or would it be
something completely different?

3469
03:45:28,360 --> 03:45:32,340
- Oh, no. I mean, we look back at the,
you know, Romans or the Greeks or,

3470
03:45:32,500 --> 03:45:34,875
like, any period in history,
and we're like, "Yeah, no,

3471
03:45:34,959 --> 03:45:36,297
I see what you're doing there.

3472
03:45:36,380 --> 03:45:40,277
You're doing it with the, you know, the
technological capabilities that you had

3473
03:45:40,360 --> 03:45:42,908
at that time. You're doing it
with the materials that you had.

3474
03:45:42,992 --> 03:45:44,392
But I see what you're doing.

3475
03:45:44,840 --> 03:45:47,956
Yeah. You've got, you've got families,
and you've got armies, and you've got,

3476
03:45:48,040 --> 03:45:50,157
you know, you bury your dead,
and you, you know."

3477
03:45:50,240 --> 03:45:54,037
- Mm-hmm. But now we're
increasingly actually having the

3478
03:45:54,120 --> 03:45:55,940
tools and technology to modify,

3479
03:45:57,060 --> 03:46:00,840
to, like, deeply modify what it means
to be human. Genetic engineering,

3480
03:46:01,480 --> 03:46:05,117
brain-computer interfaces.
As we understand the brain more, we can

3481
03:46:05,200 --> 03:46:11,890
modify things, expand completely. Plus
artificial intelligence can expand the

3482
03:46:12,760 --> 03:46:16,520
knowledge base and the intelligence
of the human mind. Unless

3483
03:46:17,320 --> 03:46:21,137
we figure out the human mind
is actually incredibly special to the

3484
03:46:21,220 --> 03:46:26,747
degree where it's-- At least with the
tools we have this century, we cannot

3485
03:46:26,830 --> 03:46:30,387
accomplish, we cannot achieve the level--

3486
03:46:30,470 --> 03:46:33,990
...of intelligence that-- general
intelligence that humans have.

3487
03:46:34,490 --> 03:46:37,727
Or one of the things we might
figure out in stage four of

3488
03:46:37,810 --> 03:46:41,650
this long history is that
the thing that makes humans

3489
03:46:41,750 --> 03:46:45,607
special is not intelligence.
It's not any of the things we kind of

3490
03:46:45,690 --> 03:46:48,190
value each other by.
It's actually consciousness,

3491
03:46:49,250 --> 03:46:53,557
and consciousness is the thing
that is very difficult to engineer.

3492
03:46:53,640 --> 03:46:56,490
And so that's the common thing
from the hunter-gatherers,

3493
03:46:57,450 --> 03:47:01,370
to before the Industrial Revolution
and after, is we're still the same.

3494
03:47:02,130 --> 03:47:05,430
We still feel like something to be alive,

3495
03:47:06,030 --> 03:47:09,807
and that's maybe an important component
of what makes us fall in love with each

3496
03:47:09,890 --> 03:47:13,670
other or fear each other or suffer and all

3497
03:47:13,770 --> 03:47:16,907
the full range of the human
condition, the human experience.

3498
03:47:16,990 --> 03:47:20,847
Maybe even technology cannot,
cannot replicate that, cannot

3499
03:47:20,930 --> 03:47:23,710
modify that.
Maybe that's what we learn. Or

3500
03:47:25,470 --> 03:47:28,490
very possibly we destroy this whole thing.

3501
03:47:29,280 --> 03:47:32,237
'Cause now for the first time
in human history, we have the tools-

3502
03:47:32,320 --> 03:47:35,520
- Yeah, yeah, we have -...
unfortunately, to destroy everything.

3503
03:47:35,850 --> 03:47:37,207
- This is all very eloquent.

3504
03:47:37,290 --> 03:47:41,087
I mean, after so many hours of my
rambling about the medieval Roman

3505
03:47:41,170 --> 03:47:44,370
Empire, you're, you're-- Yeah.
I'm impressed.

3506
03:47:44,970 --> 03:47:47,520
- Okay. What gives you
hope about this whole thing,

3507
03:47:48,530 --> 03:47:50,600
about the future of human civilization?

3508
03:47:51,550 --> 03:47:55,447
- Look, there are a lot of challenges,
right, that we, that

3509
03:47:55,530 --> 03:48:02,530
we face and we talk about them a lot.
As a historian, I see other periods that

3510
03:48:02,790 --> 03:48:06,130
were far, far more difficult

3511
03:48:06,830 --> 03:48:12,050
when people could have far more easily
have given up hope, and sometimes did. Um,

3512
03:48:13,190 --> 03:48:16,947
but I don't think we're in one
of those... Like, there, there's

3513
03:48:17,030 --> 03:48:20,727
some major issues like the uncertain
future of technologies, what they might

3514
03:48:20,810 --> 03:48:22,810
do, exactly what you were talking about.

3515
03:48:23,710 --> 03:48:27,210
I think they're solvable problems
to a certain degree. Like, if we can

3516
03:48:27,630 --> 03:48:31,746
rein in some elites, a lot
of these problems can be fixed,

3517
03:48:31,829 --> 03:48:33,350
and that's not like a

3518
03:48:33,570 --> 03:48:37,270
super difficult... I mean, it's difficult,
but it's not, like, impossible.

3519
03:48:37,390 --> 03:48:41,287
Look, so I grew up
during the Cold War. Uh,

3520
03:48:41,370 --> 03:48:45,187
let's just take the '80s, for example.
And in the '80s, like, there was a

3521
03:48:45,270 --> 03:48:48,987
pervasive sense that nuclear war
could happen at any time and just

3522
03:48:49,070 --> 03:48:51,180
annihilate everything,
and we lived under that.

3523
03:48:51,263 --> 03:48:52,967
If you look at the popular culture of

3524
03:48:53,050 --> 03:48:56,960
the '80s, it's, like, all, like,
upbeat and cheerful and naive and-

3525
03:48:57,210 --> 03:49:01,087
... like, there was just no correlation.
And then you move into the '90s, and the

3526
03:49:01,170 --> 03:49:04,987
Cold War is over, and everyone's
all depressed. The music gets

3527
03:49:05,070 --> 03:49:08,770
all, like, whiny,
and it's like, "What happened?"

3528
03:49:08,930 --> 03:49:12,847
There's just no correlation.
Anyway, I just think that the, the, it's

3529
03:49:12,930 --> 03:49:16,297
a pervasive sense
of hopelessness or, you know-

3530
03:49:16,380 --> 03:49:20,130
... Despair doesn't always match with,

3531
03:49:20,610 --> 03:49:24,410
like, if you look at the situation
objectively. I mean, yeah, it's, it, it

3532
03:49:24,530 --> 03:49:30,570
can be pretty bad. I-- But there's
so much that's happening that is good-

3533
03:49:30,810 --> 03:49:32,287
... All the time, so.

3534
03:49:32,370 --> 03:49:36,267
- I think this period of human
history will be-- 'cause we've talked

3535
03:49:36,350 --> 03:49:39,367
about the ups and downs
of the Roman Empire. I think

3536
03:49:39,450 --> 03:49:43,250
unquestionably,
this period in history, the 20th,

3537
03:49:44,410 --> 03:49:48,230
the, the late 20th century
and the 21st century will be

3538
03:49:48,370 --> 03:49:52,970
seen as the flourishing of humans.
So if we actually just wake up-

3539
03:49:53,110 --> 03:49:59,297
... it's like what everything around us,
by most measures of human flourishing-

3540
03:49:59,380 --> 03:50:00,780
... we're doing pretty good.

3541
03:50:01,010 --> 03:50:06,725
- The amount of, like, sheer misery
is probably objectively decreasing every

3542
03:50:06,809 --> 03:50:11,127
year. Now, you know, we're also
creating problems, yes, that will cause

3543
03:50:11,210 --> 03:50:14,947
misery down the road.
Yeah, yes. But overall, I

3544
03:50:15,030 --> 03:50:18,290
don't see a reason
to despair and not have hope.

3545
03:50:19,190 --> 03:50:20,440
- Yeah. We're doing okay.

3546
03:50:21,700 --> 03:50:24,717
- We can do better.
Let's do better. But yeah.

3547
03:50:24,800 --> 03:50:30,227
- That's the... Let's do better.
Well, Anthony, this was an incredible

3548
03:50:30,310 --> 03:50:32,390
conversation. Thank you for all the

3549
03:50:33,210 --> 03:50:36,430
Amazing work you do
and for the whirlwind journey

3550
03:50:37,270 --> 03:50:41,250
through such a fascinating
part of human history.

3551
03:50:41,350 --> 03:50:43,450
this was fun. Thank you for talking today.

3552
03:50:43,670 --> 03:50:47,547
- It was a pleasure to be here,
and thank you for, not just for

3553
03:50:47,630 --> 03:50:51,567
inviting me, I mean, this is probably the,
the largest audience, you know, I've,

3554
03:50:51,650 --> 03:50:55,270
I've ever spoken to but also just
for giving my, my field and this,

3555
03:50:55,590 --> 03:50:59,137
this civilization that I study the
opportunity to be seen and heard from more

3556
03:50:59,220 --> 03:50:59,527
people.

3557
03:50:59,610 --> 03:51:03,430
I think that's very important. You've,
you've done a real service here, so

3558
03:51:03,570 --> 03:51:04,920
I wanna thank you for that.

3559
03:51:05,410 --> 03:51:06,243
- Thank you.

3560
03:51:07,030 --> 03:51:10,947
Thanks for listening to this conversation
with Anthony Kaldellis. To support this

3561
03:51:11,030 --> 03:51:14,907
podcast, please check out our sponsors in
the description, where you can also find

3562
03:51:14,990 --> 03:51:18,930
links to contact me, ask questions,
give feedback, and so on.

3563
03:51:19,520 --> 03:51:25,690
And now, let me leave you with some words
from Benjamin Franklin. "A great empire,

3564
03:51:26,730 --> 03:51:31,470
like a great cake, is most
easily diminished at the edges."

3565
03:51:32,690 --> 03:51:35,810
Thank you for listening,
and hope to see you next time.