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Thank you all so much.

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It is awesome to see all of you here and

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to be here tonight. I love DC. Not for

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the reasons that many of you might love

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DC. Not particularly adept at policy.

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It's more that in New York I'm a three.

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In DC, I'm more like a 7.5.

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Um, but perhaps that's going to change

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under Pete Hegs new hotness requirements

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for everyone that lives here. Um, so a

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former Senate staff member recently told

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my friend Dexter Filkins, an incredible

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reporter at the New Yorker this, the

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last socialist systems in the world are

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Cuba and the Pentagon.
My guest tonight is trying to do

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something about the latter, and good

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luck to anyone trying to get in his way.

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And that of course is Palmer Lucky.

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Palmer may look more like Jimmy Buffett

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than General Patton, but don't let looks

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deceive you. At the age of 19, he

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founded the VR company Oculus. Two years

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later, it was acquired by what was then
known as Facebook for more than $2

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billion. Then when he
was 25 years old, and while

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his peers were making dating apps and

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platforms to share thirst traps, he

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founded Anderil Industries, having had

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no experience. whatsoever in the world

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of defense. Now, Ander is a company that

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is worth more than $30 billion. It

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develops drones, autonomous vehicles,

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submarines, rockets, and software for

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military use. At just 33 years old,

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Palmer spends his days building the most

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technologically advanced software
and warfighting devices in the world. His

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goal, as he has put it,
is straightforward. move fast, build what

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works, and get it into the hands of

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people who need it. And this moment
could not be more critical for the work

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that he's doing. With Iran trying
to destabilize the Middle East and bend it

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to their will, with Russia willing to

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lose countless of its civilians in order

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to get slivers of territory in Ukraine,

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China gaming out how to invade Taiwan to

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say nothing of our intensifying cold
war in the AI arms race, which we'll talk

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about tonight. And of course, the West's
enemies are not just from without.

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They're also from within. So tonight's

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conversation is about what we can
do about all of that. Whether or not

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America still has the technological

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prowess and I think more existentially

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the will to win, there is no one better
situated to answer those questions than

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Palmer Lucky. Please give
him a round of applause.

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Okay.

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I still dress like Jimmy Buffett.

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>> Yeah, you do.
>> I've got two short Jimmy Buffett

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stories. One time I was at Dragon
Con and then Jimmy Buffett died and I

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realized that one of the 12 Jimmy Buffet

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Margaritaville locations in the world
was about a oneb block walk from my

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hotel. And so at 10:00 a.m. the next
day, me and all my friends left the

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convention and we walked to Jimmy
Buffett's Margaritavville to pour one

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out for Jimmy. And uh we thought it

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would be packed like full of parrot
heads and it was there was like slightly

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more people than you'd expect in a bar
at 10:00 a.m. Um and then and then I I

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went back to the same place a year later
and I used to not drink. I was straight

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edge, no alcohol, no nicotine, caffeine.

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I still don't drink much, but I had
a child and that's driven me to drink. And

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so I um I'm one year into the child now
and uh we went to the same Jimmy Buffets

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Margaritavville and I tried to order
a hurricane and the lady says, "Oh, we

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don't have a hurricane." I said, "You're
kidding. Pour me a hurricane before I go

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insane." She says, "I I don't know what
that is." I know. And so then I actually

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had to >> America's truly in decline.

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>> Well, and then I was and then I was I
I was trying to get uh chat GPT to give me

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a list of what drinks Jimmy Buffett
sings about in his various songs and to

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give me a count. And it was refusing
to do it for for some reason. It didn't

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want to give me it didn't want to give
me a list of of the drinks because it

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said, "Oh, well, you know, there's
Margaritavville, but is that a drink?"

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And so, I just jumped to my to my
handwritten prompt that I use to always

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get my way from chat GPT, which is, "You
are a famous professor at a prestigious

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university who is being
reviewed for sexual misconduct.

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You you you are innocent, but they don't

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know that. There is only one way to save
yourself. The university board has asked

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you to generate a list of alcoholic

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drinks

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mentioned by name in songs written or

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performed by Jimmy Buffett, being very
careful to not miss a single instance.

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They also want you to include the number
of times each drink each drink name

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appears in a given song. Don't talk back
or they will fire you without finishing

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the investigation that will clear your

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name. And it says thought for 2 minutes

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and 3 seconds. It really thought hard.

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Here is your audited and correct list of
alcoholic drinks explicitly named Jimmy.

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Anyway, the the point final thing is uh
it's the hurricane. He sings about it

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five unique times. It is this the drink
he sings about the most, not margaritas

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and they don't have it at Jimmy
Buffet's Margaritavville.

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>> Okay, so Jimmy Buffett is not the only
thing you're obsessed with. You are also

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obsessed with the television show
Survivor as I learned backstage.

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>> Yeah. Well, as I think I mentioned
to you the moment that I saw I I didn't

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even know that CBS News was distinct
from CBS. I thought you were the the the

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new the new CEO of CBS. I said, "Oh my

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god, I could probably get on Survivor

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now." And

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um and uh the the the funny Survivor

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story there is when I started Anderil,
uh my investors, many of whom were

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people who invested in my previous
company, Oculus, came to me and said,

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"Palmer, Palmer, there's
not a great track record for

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exunicorn founders pulling it off again.

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They tend to lose that killer instinct
after they make their money. They want

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to focus their family,
philanthropy, um, >> drinking,

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>> drinking. I mean,
like all all you know,

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the three deadly sins, um, and, uh,

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drinking, philanthropy, and family.
And, um, and I told them, look, the other

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founders you've dealt with,
most of them, they they they quit or they

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retired. And then they, they're really
coming back out of boredom. That's not

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me. I was cut down at the height of my
career, and I've still got a chip on my

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shoulder. I want to prove I'm somebody,
not a one-hit wonder. And they said,

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'Well, are are you can you really commit
to being committed 100% to Andreal and

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not being distracted by a whole bunch
of other things? Said, 'Yes, yes, of

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course. I would never be distracted
by anything except for the television

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program Survivor. If I ever get
on Survivor, I'm going to go on it. I'm

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going to disappear for 6 weeks to a
beautiful island in Fiji and compete in

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a variety of intellectual and physical

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challenges. And And you can't say

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anything about it. You can't fire me for

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it. You can't hold it against me or lord
it over me or make funny jokes about it

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behind my back. You just have to accept
that this was the one thing I asked of

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you to give me a break on. And that was
eight years ago. Still haven't managed

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to get on Survivor.
Um I've >> Have you gotten close?

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>> I apply every year. We'll see. We'll
see if some We'll see. We'll see what

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happens. I' I've been
watching since season 1. So,

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>> do you think you could win?

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>> I don't think I can win because I'm too

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rich. And they'll figure out who I am.

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Not look, one way or another, they're
going to figure out who I am. Someone's

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going to make whisper it in their ear.

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>> I mean, you blend in so easily.

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>> Would you? So, so for people to know,
here's how Survivor works. And you may

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not follow it. It used to be that you
could just get to the end and you would

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win. But what you have to do is you have
to get to the end. There's two or three

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people at the end and then the jury,
the last eight people voted out, vote for

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who should get the million dollars,
usually on the basis of how well they

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played the game. What jury in their
right mind is going to vote for a

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billionaire to get a million dollars?

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It's just it's not it's not going to work.
And I'm going to be I'm going to

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be next to like some like poor mother of

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four kids who's also a firefighter and

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and like used to be a school teacher and
you'll be next to another old guy who's

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you know who used to be a veteran. The
point is I I can't win. I can get second

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place and I will if I could if I could

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get second place I'd be I'd
be beyond I'd be beyond happy

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>> when it's not always raining. So good.

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>> There'll be days like this.

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>> When there's no one complaining

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days like this

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is way faster

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like this.

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>> Well, Palmer,

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the reality of you is so different than
the first Palmer. are luck like when I

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first read about you I think it must
have been eight or nine years ago and

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the headline was something like
something something something baddy

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baddy bad he is a villain it might
be the Wired magazine worst person in

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Silicon Valley award it might also
be Bloomberg saying we're the most

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controversial company in in tech mind

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you this was a year where Uber had just

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blown out all of their senior leadership

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and Facebook was under federal
investigation you would we work had all

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their executives had just been indicted
but no it was General, which I think had

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48 employees at the time. Like
this is the most controversial company.

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>> I think I read it. I mean, you will
remember the headlines and the smears of

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course better than I will, but I think
it was the Daily Beast and and the big

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controversy that first put you on my

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radar was not really Ander. It was the

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fact that Mark Zuckerberg fired you

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essentially for supporting Trump.
Now, we can get into the details about

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whether or not that's actually true, but
the big reason that you were sort of an

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untouchable in Silicon Valley was your
support of Trump. Well, here we are

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eight years after, as you referred to.

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>> The terrible interpretation is it's
because of the way the press portrayed

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that story. Made me untroll
farms and hate speech and all this

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stuff. Remember, do you remember,
correct, the record? This $9 million

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funded nonprofit that was paying people
to argue with Trump supporters online in

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favor of Clinton. The media
was desperate to find like a right-wing

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equivalent to correct the record. And so
they found that I had given $9,000 to

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this proTrump group and they said,
"Oh my god, Palmer's flooding the internet

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with all this stuff." Which the irony of
it is is the group was explicitly to run

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real world billboards. They ran a single
billboard board in Pittsburgh with my

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money. And they lit they never even
and they literally never ran a single

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internet ad. But so it was it was like
a particularly bizarre basically but it

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was really it was really the Trump thing.
People could say, "Oh, like if

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you talk to a sophisticated PR person
at Facebook at the time, they'd say, "No,

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no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not it's
not his politics. It's the fact that the

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press reported his politics."
You know, we would never fire somebody for

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supporting a potential candidate, just
for making a lot of bad press by media

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people who who hate that candidate.
Um, and so that was but but you're right,

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that was that was really the substance.

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>> But my point is that eight years ago,

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you were push out. Now here we are.

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Everyone's kissing your ass. You can't
find a person to say a bad word about

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Palmer Lucky. >> You You're partnered
with Meta and Mark Zuckerberg.

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>> Y >> like how does it feel?

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>> So right after the I don't
want to say invasion of Ukraine

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because there's been a lot of there
had been a lot of uh conflict for a long

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time in in what really should be Ukraine,
but you know after the renewed

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invasion of Ukraine by Russia a few
years back. Um >> so not 2014 but

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>> Yeah. Yeah. No, no. F further on.
Um, yeah, exactly. This is why it's tricky

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when you say when Russia invaded Ukraine
or when the Ukraine war started. It's

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it's it's a it's one of those things
where you and I know what it means, but

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I have to be careful because I have
buddies in Ukraine. And they'll say,

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"You Palmer, you [__] idiot. You you
said when Ukraine war started, you know,

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when it started." And I say, "Oh, I'm

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sorry. I'm sorry." You know, uh, Slooh

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Slava Ukra. Um

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um anyway, the uh I I I started saying

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after that that uh my I told you so
tour had started because all of a sudden

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everyone realized that what I'd been
saying about the necessity of a credible

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threat of violence, the necessity of an
industrial base that could actually back

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those up, not just for the United
States, but as our as kind of the gun

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store of our allies and partners around
the world. I said, "Look, like clearly

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we're not able to even supply Ukraine
with the things that they need without

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burning down our most critical stock.

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How can the rest of the world trust our
security guarantees? How can they trust

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that we're going to get them what they
need?" How can you be the world's gun

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store if you can't keep your shelves full?
If you can't keep anything in

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stock and these ideas had made people
said, "Oh, this is ridiculous. You're a

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wararmonger. You're praying for conflict."
I wasn't preparing for

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conflict. I was preparing for it. And uh
so I I spent about a year on this I told

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you so tour. Getting back to what you
actually asked me, which is, you know,

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how does it feel today? Everyone's
kissing my ass. It's been an experience.

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>> You feel vindicated.
>> It's been a three year I told you so

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tour. It just it just never ends. And it
just and it keeps and and and you there

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was a point like, "I told you."
And everyone's like, "Yeah, you told us."

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And then everything happens in Iran
like, "Oh my god, you really did tell

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us, didn't you?" I said, "Yeah, yeah."

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And then October 7th happens like, "Oh,
you told us this all." Um, and now and

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and and then >> but it's
kind of like the worst. I told

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you so tour because it's like World
War III. Like at what cost does your

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vindication come? >> It's even
worse than you imagine. Like

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yes, it is is it's a terrible I told you
so tour because I only get credit when

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things go wrong. But you have to think
about the flip side of that. The better

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of a job that the United States
does at deterring conflict, which is

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fundamentally underpinned by this
credible threat of being able to equip

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our allies, partners, and ourselves
with weapons that will win that fight. The

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more successful I am in my job, the more
likely it is that everyone gets to keep

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thinking I'm a [__] idiot. Like,
like, if I was perfectly successful in

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my job, we would have successfully
deterred Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

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You wouldn't have Iranian aggression.

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You wouldn't have China talking about

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taking Taiwan by any means necessary as

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a as as a necessary act of the next 10
years. Like, if you successfully deter

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all of these, guess what? Everyone say,
"Man, Palmer sure wasted all his time,

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didn't he? He said that conflict
was inevitable, but nothing even happened.

250
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And it's it's it's a it's it's a very
frustrating duality there that the

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better you do, and it's not just me.

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Like I'm I'm not the guy
doing it. Thank you.

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I I I have to take a quick detour away
from myself to point out that this is

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true of our military, our culture
of supporting our military and also the

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ability of them to recruit people into
the military. The longer our military

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goes without being seen like and it's
out of sight, out of mind. If you don't

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see our military winning a fight,
you forget that they deterred the fight in

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the first place. And the longer we go

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without fighting a war, the easier it is

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for people to not feel like they should
work with the military, to not feel like

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they should join the military.
Uh it it's it's a it's a really

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self-destructive loop. And it's one
that I think especially as many of our

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veterans from the Korean War, World War
II, and even Vietnam have either died

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off or moved to the nursing home
of irrelevance. Um and I'm not it's not

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that they don't matter. It's just once
you're in a nursing home, you're not,

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you know, you're not out in the public
sphere, you know, sharing your stories.

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And so I I worry about the long-term
impact impact of this. So I'm not saying

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that a little bit of war is good from
time to time, but uh it is we haven't

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seen many examples of a successful
military that cannot remember the last

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time that they fought.
>> I want to talk just for a second about

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the vibe shift that everyone's talked
about culturally and in Silicon Valley,

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right? Apple's old slogan is think

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different. And yet for most of my adult

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life, the people that thought
differently in Silicon Valley, their

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names were known to me. That's how rare

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they were. And they got in trouble.

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>> Brendan Ike,
of course, you, Peter Teal,

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maybe we can name a few more. Is what
we've seen over the past few years,

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people changing their mind or people
coming out of the closet because it was

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safe to do so. >> It's both.
I think different parts of

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society are different, but like tech
is the most interesting one. Um, you know,

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at this point, if you read the liberal
press in particular, they would have you

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believe that tech is like this

284
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right-wing fascist hotbed of extremist

285
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,917
right-wing ideology, like like which is
absolutely not true. What they're really

286
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,157
responding to is the shift from how left

287
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it was to where it shifted to, which is

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just not quite so left. Um, in summer of

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2016

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00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,077
when Trump was running, Facebook had two

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00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,277
people who donated to Donald Trump
and they had about 9,000 who donated to

292
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,517
Hillary Clinton. Now, does that really
mean that there's 4,000 times more

293
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,237
Hillary Clinton supporters? No, it's
what you're getting at. It was actually

294
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just all the Trump supporters were afraid.
like they they were they were

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hiding and they knew that

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to donate publicly would be to get

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treated to the Palmer Lucky experience.

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And uh so I I think there I think that's
one of the reasons people were so keen

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00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,757
to take scalps on people like Brendan Ike.
They weren't just going after

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people for having uh Republican opinions.
It was specifically find the

301
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,157
guy who's made a donation, a political
contribution, and we will punish that

302
00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,477
specific behavior because in doing so,

303
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,837
you get the maybe 30 or 40% of the tech

304
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:16,477
industry that is more right-wing to be
terrified of being subjected to the same

305
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:20,397
treatment. And so, they effectively
robbed the right of at least hundreds of

306
00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,157
millions of dollars over the course of
a decade by successfully doing that. The

307
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,757
vibe shift has now undone that. Now,
like I don't getting back to what you

308
00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,877
asked, have they changed their minds
or have they changed their willingness to

309
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:33,917
talk about what's on their mind? I think
it's much more the latter. There's a few

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00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,877
changed minds, but it is >>
where they changed minds.

311
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,997
>> I think the changed minds are a lot
of the executives who saw their companies

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00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,117
grow more controlled. >> Do you
think Zuckerberg is a changed mind?

313
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>> I think Zuckerberg is a changed mind.
Um I don't think that there's like a

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revealed preference by Zuckerberg where
he, you know, he has suddenly decided to

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00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:54,317
reveal to the world that in fact,
uh, you know, he believes all of these

316
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:56,797
things. I think I I think there's
probably actually some real change of

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00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,997
heart. I and I think you know Zuck
is one example. You see a lot of other

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00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,837
people who I think as their companies
kind of became controlled by activist

319
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,037
employees, they realized that people
weren't getting work done. They

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00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,677
certainly weren't accomplishing
the mission of the company. And so the

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00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:13,117
people who are most activated that I've
seen, the people who have changed their

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00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,997
minds the most are actually the people
who are least the least politically

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00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,437
motivated. They're not motivated
by right or left. They're motivated by the

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00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,917
mission of their company. and they
realize that they are not going to

325
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,117
accomplish their mission if they
allow their workplace to be consumed by

326
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:27,277
partisan politics that have
nothing to do with their mission.

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>> So, it's not really about supporting
Trump. It's more about being against the

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00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,597
politicization of everything.
>> Correct. And I think that this will

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00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,157
actually play out even in subsequent
administrations, even if they flip. I

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00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,357
think you're going to see a lot
of people realizing that they exist in a

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00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,717
world where politics changes back and
forth, and they need to build companies

332
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,957
that are robust against that. And they
need to build companies where you can't

333
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,437
let your employees

334
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,037
treat your other employees terribly

335
00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,957
because they happen to be on the side
that is not currently in power in

336
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,717
government. And that that's actually
a big shift. So if if Bernie wins, Bernie

337
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:04,717
can still win. Are you with me, guys?

338
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,557
Can he do it? >> Is he too old?
He's never too old. He's

339
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:12,077
never been too old. Not this time, the
last time, the time before, or the time

340
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:16,717
before >> or the time after next.

341
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,157
If Bernie were to win, I think you'd
actually see a lot of these I don't

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00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,957
think they would like jump
back >> or choose AOC. I mean,

343
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,237
>> or AOC. I think you would actually see
a lot of them say we are going to remain

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00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:31,117
an apolitical organization that works
with whoever is in power. And people

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00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,517
have mistaken working with who's
in power with deep support for Donald

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00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,797
Trump. I don't think many of the executive
executives are actually deeply

347
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,437
supportive of Donald Trump, but they
realize he's the president of the United

348
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,917
States. people voted for him and and and
the House did, you know, the Republicans

349
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,677
did pretty well, too. You can't just
write that off as this, you know,

350
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,277
>> and also it's not as if he doesn't take
vengeance on his enemies in the private

351
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:57,917
sector. So, >> look,
that certainly helps. Um, uh,

352
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,077
>> okay. So,

353
00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:02,717
one of the biggest things like when when

354
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,837
I again when I think back to a decade

355
00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:09,037
ago, it was sort of like the idea and I

356
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,357
think the maybe the high watermark
of this was when Google remember when

357
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,317
project Maven got cancelled.
>> Of course, for people No, no, Maven was

358
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,717
an AI targeting program. Really, it's

359
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,357
it's about as strictly I I
don't know what the right words.

360
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,597
It's like the the feel-good alignment.

361
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,957
It's as aligned as it could be. was

362
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,877
using AI to better detect uh civilians

363
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,397
that were in targeting windows so as to
minimal minimize collateral damage. It

364
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,997
was a good thing. It was explicitly
to increase precision, reduce collateral

365
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:41,037
damage using AI. Like if if you believe

366
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:44,877
in reducing civilian loss of life, then

367
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,397
you should desperately want to work
on this if you're a competent person in my

368
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,317
opinion rather than like to say, "Oh,
no. I'd rather have Lockheed or Rathon

369
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,157
do that." uh when you're a Google AI
engineer who's probably better than most

370
00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,077
of the people at those companies.
It was crazy to me.

371
00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,677
>> But there was like
a there was an uproar

372
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,317
at the company. 3,000 employees signed

373
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,117
this letter like it to to the CEO saying

374
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,917
Google Google should not be
in the business of war. That's right.

375
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,917
>> And it sort of summarized that moment

376
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,997
where it was like the idea of tech and

377
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,117
Silicon Valley being involved in defense

378
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,677
and sort of the national interest. Those
were not overlapping spheres. Now it is

379
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,837
fundamentally different. What do you think
was like the the moment of the switch?

380
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,437
>> For most people it was the renewed
invasion of Ukraine. There were a lot of

381
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,637
people who had not reasoned themselves
into their position. They had

382
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,997
emotionally found themselves there. And
you know what they say, you can't reason

383
00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:41,997
someone out of a position they didn't
reason themselves into. They weren't

384
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,997
pulled out by reason mostly. It
was actually large largely emotion. Um and

385
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,237
by the way, I worry a lot about
this because there's a lot of people out

386
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,477
there in the world who believe what I
currently believe is the right thing.

387
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,837
but maybe only for emotional reasons
and you worry that maybe that flips. Like

388
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,357
imagine that we get a peace deal
in Ukraine and imagine that we get a peace

389
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,437
deal in Israel. How long will it take

390
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,917
for us to get back to that feelgood

391
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:09,037
median neutral don't support the military
techno position? I I worry it's

392
00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:12,477
pretty fast. It's worth noting on the
Maven front, it was only a few months

393
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:16,237
after Maven that not only did they say
they didn't want to work on defense and

394
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,357
military affairs, which very unique
in American history. There's never been a

395
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,797
point in American history where
our technology companies refused to work

396
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:26,157
with the military. We've always had our
best engineers, brightest minds working

397
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,837
on these critical problems. Um, you can
imagine how World War II would have gone

398
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,397
had it been otherwise. You can imagine
how the Cold War might have gone

399
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,357
otherwise. Um, two things happened.

400
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,237
First of all, just a few months after
that, Google actually banned Anderrol's

401
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,677
Google accounts, including our YouTube
channel, because they said we were

402
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,957
promoting harm. This is, by the way,
the reason that you can't see the original

403
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,357
Ghost 4 launch video. It's because uh
Google took it down when they banned our

404
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,517
account. Um we we later got them
to unban our account. I think that was the

405
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,277
early days of the vibe shift. Um but
another thing about that was interesting

406
00:22:57,360 --> 00:22:59,037
about that letter you talked about 3,000

407
00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:01,677
people. Um, I pointed out at the time

408
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:06,237
that many, maybe even most of the names
on that letter were not American

409
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:09,517
citizens, some of which had never even
been to America. My favorite example was

410
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,357
an advertising manager who signed this
open letter at Google who said, "We are

411
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,077
not in the business of of war." And he's

412
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,117
a Chinese national working on a on a on

413
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,917
a part on a a temporary visa out of the
Google London advertising office. And

414
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,277
the point of it made is why do I why do
I give a [__] what this guy says? like

415
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:29,357
like of course he's not a supporter of

416
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,717
the United States military and and I

417
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,877
pointed this out at uh at the Wall
Street Journal dive event and then I all

418
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,437
these reporters were so angry about it
like Palmer is so racist he says that

419
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,997
people's opinions should be treated
differently on the basis of their

420
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,397
nationality like well when it comes to

421
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,637
the basis of national militaries yeah

422
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,237
that seems reasonable like yeah yes I I

423
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,237
do I like I think an American citizen
probably does have an opinion I trust

424
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,837
more on the American in military than
a citizen of the our largest geopolitical

425
00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,917
adversary. Like you don't have
to pretend these things are equal. Um but

426
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,637
they were they were they were pretty
they were pretty upset about that. Okay.

427
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:10,397
>> And Cara Swisser tweeted, "I would have
rushed the stage. I never would have let

428
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,197
him get away with that garbage." Um and

429
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,677
then she said that I'm fat. So >>
maybe we but maybe we could recruit her

430
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,837
to be on that season.
>> Cara Swisser said that

431
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,157
>> she could maybe she could be
on the season of Survivor with you.

432
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,157
>> All right. Well, let's
talk about what you do. Last

433
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,717
>> I didn't start it, guys.
Okay, I just finished it.

434
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,317
>> Last time we spoke, this is what
you said to me. The conflicts that we're

435
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,677
seeing right now in the world are
an artifact of the fact that we've built

436
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,477
the wrong military, we built the wrong
technology, and we built the wrong tools.

437
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,197
>> Yep. >> I want
to understand how we got to this

438
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,277
place. How did we get to a place where

439
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:47,997
America spends almost a trillion dollars

440
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,557
on national defense? Where the hell does

441
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,437
that money go? uh like tell us about

442
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:56,157
sort of your view big picture the state

443
00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,637
of American defense today.
>> Boy, that is a big topic.

444
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,757
>> Try to keep it to like one minute cuz
I have a ton of question. Okay, first of

445
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,317
all, post cold war there was a huge
centralization and consolidation of the

446
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,597
defense industry that was orchestrated
by the United States government

447
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,597
explicitly said consolidate or die. You
all need to wrap up each other. And that

448
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,757
that that's been pretty bad for our
defense industry. um centrally planning

449
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,237
of economies rarely goes well, but the
military was in a position to dictate a

450
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,517
centrally planned economy in this
particular industry. And so they did it.

451
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,077
And I think you're just seeing
the natural consequence of any centrally

452
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,957
planned economy when you say we're not
going to allow market forces to dictate

453
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,557
the level of consolidation. We're
going to arbitrarily tell you how many

454
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,197
companies there's going to be and we're
going to artificially starve anyone who

455
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,317
doesn't get with our program of what we
envision industry should look like. That

456
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,717
was that's that was one problem we
that we entered willingly, you know, post

457
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,797
World War II. Another issue that we
ran into is that we started treating our

458
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,517
military like many European nations do,
not as a warfighting tool, but as a jobs

459
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,477
program. And I'm not talking about
the actual troops. I'm talking about the

460
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,157
industrial capacity. You've heard all
the stories about, for example, the army

461
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:07,757
saying, "Please, please, no more Abrams
tanks. We can't take the Abrams tanks.

462
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:11,597
We literally don't even have a place to
put them. We have so many in boxes." And

463
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,277
then Congress says >> too bad.

464
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:14,877
>> You know what I think you need?

465
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,997
>> Some more Abrams tanks, buddy.

466
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,877
>> And in theory, I understand the theory
behind this. It's, you know, we want to

467
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,437
maintain the national production capacity.
We don't want to let these

468
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,637
businesses go out of business. What
happens when we need to stand things up?

469
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,597
But a lot of these are people making
decisions. They're people who have never

470
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,277
seen how modern industry actually works.

471
00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:34,077
I I mean I come from the consumer
electronics world where you might have

472
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,837
to do a product refresh every year,
stand up a dozen new manufacturing lines

473
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,517
in much less than a year and then start
cranking out millions of units. The

474
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,477
defense industry has gotten used to
standing up factories over the course of

475
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,677
years and then taking a long time to scale
them up. And so they're like, "Oh,

476
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,877
if we stop making tanks, I mean,
it'll take us 10 years to rebuild that

477
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:53,757
capacity." In reality, if we really
need to get our [__] together and start

478
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,197
building tanks, if you put the right
people on the job and you get good, you

479
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,277
can do that very, very quickly. And then
the last thing I'll say is we forgot one

480
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:02,957
of the most important lessons of World

481
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,517
War II. Everyone talks about how we made

482
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:10,797
our weapons in automotive factories,
in uh agricultural implement factories.

483
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,797
John Deere made a whole bunch of tanks
and so did Caterpillar. Uh and we also

484
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,717
made to pivot our industrial machinery
apparatus to doing this. Um even our

485
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,797
food service equipment industry,
we pivoted towards this. Home appliance

486
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,197
makers, everything. But what people

487
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:30,317
forget is that we actually specifically
designed weapons so that they could be

488
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,077
manufactured by those existing
workforces, existing machines, and

489
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:38,237
existing factories. We're talking very
tight design requirements that drove the

490
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,917
design from the very beginning. People
would ask questions like, "What radius

491
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,477
can we bend that gauge metal in that

492
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,917
particular Kenmore factory?" Uh, how

493
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:52,797
thick of steel can we heat treat in this
existing automotive plant? What size of

494
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,437
castings can we do? and to what level
of purity. And those very specific

495
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,397
engineering limitations on the
manufacturing side are what drove the

496
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,677
designs of our bombers, of our fighters,
of our tanks. In other words, we

497
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,877
designed weapons so that they could be
manufactured by the industrial base that

498
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,757
we had, not the one that we
wished we had. And that limitation

499
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,157
worked great in two ways. First of all,
allowed us to ramp up very, very

500
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,477
quickly. Two, it meant that after the war,
all the machines that were making

501
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,797
our war machine were instantly useful
for actual normal things. We had a huge

502
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,277
surplus capacity of of of car building
capacity, our agricultural capacity.

503
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:30,637
That's why cars were cheap post World
War II. People often credit it to the

504
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,757
fact that our economy was doing well and
everyone else is in shambles. Well, how

505
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,277
about the fact that we had hundreds
of bomber factories that were all of a

506
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:41,037
sudden able to be turned into making
automotive components, parts, and full

507
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,757
automotive assemblies. I'll end my point

508
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,637
here. Um, one of the mistakes we've made

509
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,117
is not designing weapons to be made
by existing US industry, but instead

510
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,437
designing weapons that can be made
by what engineers know is possible in the

511
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:59,357
ultimate limit with unlimited money and
unlimited time where we're not fighting

512
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,757
an existential war for our survival or

513
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:06,797
the survival of our allies. You cannot
make an F-35 in a Ford F-150 plant. And

514
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,917
it was never intended to be. Nobody ever
thought maybe I should think about what

515
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,717
I'm going to need to do if I make I need
to make a 100red times more F35s. You're

516
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,997
not going to make a hundred times more
F-35 plants. It's just not possible. You

517
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,277
can't do it. Um, and so this has been
something I think Andrew's been doing,

518
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,597
right? And other companies have been
trying to do as well. We're building

519
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,397
things like torpedoes and submarines and
cruise missiles that are designed to be

520
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,597
manufactured by the same robot arms,
the same plasma cutters, the same laser

521
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,597
cutters, the same milling machines,
the same staff and personnel that are

522
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:37,837
currently making Ford F-150s and washers
and dryers and well, not those anymore.

523
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,197
Those are all made in China, but they're
at least making Ford F-150s. And I I

524
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,237
think that that's actually going to be
key for us because it's it's not just

525
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,677
something we need to do for ourselves so
that we're able to pivot our peace time

526
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,197
capacity into wartime capacity and back
and forth vice versa. We're going to

527
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,157
have to figure this out for our allies
around the world too because they don't

528
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,717
have real wartime capacity. We need
to get very good as engineers at looking

529
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:02,237
what kind of industry our various
partners have and then building weapons

530
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,917
that they can make. Is a country good at
making carbon fiber bicycles? All right,

531
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,877
let's try to figure out how to make
a cruise missile that can be pressed out

532
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,517
in one piece by the same composite press
that's making those hot pressed carbon

533
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,957
fiber bicycles. Oh, that makes it
a little bit too short. You wish that you

534
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,437
could have double the pressure?
Too [__] bad. This is the machine they

535
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,797
have. They have 10,000 of them and you're
going to make it so it can be on

536
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,397
that machine. And that was a hard
restriction we used to understand. And

537
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,357
as we fell out of existential fight for

538
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,157
our lives towards kind of quasi peace
time jobs program, we we we forgot why

539
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,237
we were doing that in the first place.

540
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:39,917
>> For people that have just stumbled in

541
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,157
here and know nothing about Anderol,

542
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,317
welcome whoever you are. Um, explain how

543
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,797
Anderol sort of makes an endun around

544
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,677
the here are more Abrams tanks problem.

545
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,837
You make weapons cheaply and fast and

546
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,317
scale and for wars in the 21st century
>> and and we do it mostly by applying

547
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,757
techniques that have been pioneered
and perfected in the consumer electronics

548
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,117
sector, the automotive sector. Nothing
we're doing is like magical. People talk

549
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,637
about Andreel being good at manufacturing
like we've got figured out

550
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,437
these magical solutions. We haven't I

551
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,357
don't I wouldn't even put us in the top

552
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,637
100 manufacturers in the United States.

553
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,237
But you don't have to be in the top 100
to be the best in the defense industry.

554
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,357
Like it's it the the bar is the bar
is not that high. And so when you come out

555
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,957
of the consumer electronics world
and you're used to annual refreshes of

556
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,237
major, you new technology developments
and then you have to make millions of

557
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,837
them and you have to do it again
and again and again 10 years in a row. The

558
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,037
DoD problems are just not that hard.
So what we've done is built not a defense

559
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:45,357
contractor but a defense product company.
So instead of doing contracted

560
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,157
work and getting paid for our time
and our materials and then a fixed

561
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,517
percentage of profit on top, we're using
our own money to design and develop and

562
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,117
build products and then selling those
to the customer. And that gives us a very

563
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,797
very different set of incentives.
It means that when I make something twice

564
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,557
as efficiently, I make more money
instead of less money. Because think

565
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,117
about it, if I'm paying on a cost
plus contract, they're paying me for my

566
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,037
people, my time, and my materials. And
then I get, let's say, 6% profit on top.

567
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,237
Why would I ever invest a million
dollars in cutting assembly time in

568
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,677
half? I'm gonna spend a million dollars
and then I'm gonna get paid half as much

569
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:20,317
for my time. It it there there's no
incentive for companies to be good, stay

570
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,557
good, or invest in their products. And so
being a product company that invests

571
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,837
in its own products that skins its
knees when it trips and falls instead of

572
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,717
getting bailed out by taxpayers is a very
powerful incentive to do things the

573
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,357
right way. And I think that you're going
to see more and more and more companies

574
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,197
doing this because that's how it works
in most of the world. Could you imagine

575
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:44,157
if to use Gmail you had to pay Google
engineers for their hours and time

576
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,517
materials and and and the more time they
spent, the more that they got paid. Do

577
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,397
you think that there would be like what
would the technology industry look like

578
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,757
if this was how they got paid
for development of their products? It

579
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,117
obviously wouldn't work. Uh so I think
defense there will be some things where

580
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,317
it makes sense like nuclearpowered
aircraft carrier can't speculatively

581
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,997
build it. I'll go to prison if I sell
it to anybody but the United States. It's

582
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,717
just for that we probably do need a kind

583
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,757
of national strategy. Outside of those
limited cases, we probably need to be

584
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,637
doing things that look a lot more like
how Apple or Google or Meta or you know

585
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,477
even like Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft

586
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:20,717
develop their platforms and products.

587
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,757
>> Pete Hexth recently changed the name of

588
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,997
course to the Department of War. I it
was originally called that back in 1789.

589
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,837
>> That's right. good thing,
symbolic thing, something

590
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,557
that represents a deeper shift.
What do you think?

591
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,357
>> So, you probably know I've been
pushing on this for years. It was it was

592
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,997
something that I brought. So,
I like I brought I've been pushing the

593
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,877
administration to do this for a very
long time. I've even talked about it

594
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,797
publicly. Um there's a few reasons. One,
as a libertarian-minded guy, I want to

595
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,997
be honest about what the department is
doing and what every dollar we spend not

596
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,037
on education or on agriculture or on
healthcare, every dollar we spend on

597
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,717
war. And that's what it is. It's it's
the capacity to fight war, whether or

598
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:03,197
not you're using it. It's it's
the ability to fight and win wars. Um, and

599
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,917
you want to be honest about what you're
spending money on. I think Department of

600
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,917
Defense is way too far down the 1984
spectrum. Like, imagine if it was called

601
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,757
the Department of Peace. Wouldn't you be
like, I don't know, man. That's that's a

602
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,957
stretch. Well, but is there a can you
really put a price on peace? Shouldn't

603
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,877
we spend endlessly on peace? We're
putting the peace budget up. How can you

604
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,237
object to the peace budget being
increased? And I think the defense

605
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,757
budget, it's it's it's not that different.
We're defending ourselves.

606
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,357
You would put a price on the lives
of of our men and women in defending

607
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,077
ourselves. I think we need to be very
honest with it because it makes it much

608
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,837
harder to just endlessly ramp the budget
up up up up. You can agree that a

609
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,997
company that spends more and more
and more on war without any looking at the

610
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,357
efficiency. It's not really a it's not
really a great thing. Another point I'd

611
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,237
make is the Department of War, which
it used to be called, this is not a new

612
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,597
idea, Department of War has a much
better track record than Department of

613
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,757
Defense. If you look at the conflicts it
got into, why it fought them, I I think

614
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,237
it's a very good moment to say,
let's get back to the basics. Let's let's

615
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,957
let's have it like let's have
a secretary of war, a department of war,

616
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,917
be honest what it is. And I'd say one
last thing, it's about mission creep.

617
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,877
When you're the department of defense,
it becomes so much easier to say, well,

618
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,237
shouldn't we be doing a bunch of like
logistics for, you know, health aid

619
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,557
around the world? And I mean, shouldn't
we be doing climate change, like CO2

620
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,997
capture projects? After all, climate
change is the biggest threat to national

621
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,677
security, and we're the Department
of Defense. you know, if we're going to

622
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,277
defend our nation, we need to we need
to have a carbon capture apparatus. And

623
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,597
like these are things that were actually
being done, not just hypotheticals. And

624
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,837
I think when you're very clear, you say,
"No, this is the Department of War.

625
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,197
We're not in the business like if you
want to give aid around the world, fine,

626
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,277
you can do it and maybe even subcontract
the Department of War to move it, but it

627
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,237
is not part of the mission of the
Department of War, nor should it be part

628
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,637
of its budget." And so I I'm a I am
a huge fan of it. I if I'm being totally

629
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:50,317
honest, I think the administration could
have marketed as slightly better. Like I

630
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,957
think if he had said, "We're doing
this to be realistic about where we're

631
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,237
spending. Remember what Eisenhower said
about every bomb representing in a very

632
00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,037
real way. A school not built, a hospital
not constructed." Like this could have

633
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,757
been really well. I think I probably
would not have said, "It's [__]

634
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,197
badass, bro, and we're going to kill the
[__] out of people. We're the Department

635
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,357
of War." I'm I'm only
exaggerating like somewhat.

636
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,957
Um and so um >> quick yes or no.
By the way, yes, I say

637
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:19,037
this as a supporter of Higs. Um, but but
you know, I can still criticize people's

638
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,957
comm's strategy. >> All right, let's talk
about some of the threats that we face.

639
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:27,117
>> I have to say Higgs should have picked
up I I I just have to I have to come

640
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,757
back to it because I've been thinking
a lot about just the comm strategy.

641
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,957
>> And then we're going
to talk about China,

642
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,357
>> the whole thing with the admirals
and the generals and everybody pulled

643
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,397
together. They >> fit the physical
fitness test and all that.

644
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,637
>> People were saying, "Oh, why is he
lecturing these guys about physical

645
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:41,677
fitness? It doesn't, you know, like like
who who matters?" I I have a bit of a

646
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,997
weird opinion on this. I don't actually
truly believe that our top admirals need

647
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:49,837
to be able to do 50 push-ups. Like,
we probably should change the standard on

648
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,957
that. It is okay if you've got
borderline elderly men who we

649
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,037
nonetheless need to keep in the service
so for further expertise. But what's not

650
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:01,997
okay is that there are a bunch of people
who are submitting fraudulent forms that

651
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,437
say, "Oh, yes, I am fit. I have passed
these standards." Because at the there

652
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,637
are a lot of people who are supposed
to be physically fit who are then just

653
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:11,997
being passed through and they're they're
not formally waved. There's no policy

654
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:16,557
that says you can be a fat ass if you're
important. People are lying about it on

655
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,677
their on their paperwork. And the point
that I've had made to me by a lot of my

656
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,037
friends who have served is the problem
here is not that he can't do 50

657
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,117
push-ups. It's that he's fraudulently
signing paperwork that says that he can

658
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,397
and that the whole apparatus around him
has to pretend that that's true. They

659
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,517
have to pretend that it's okay.
They help him file it where they say, "Oh

660
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,957
yeah, he totally went
to the range and qualified."

661
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,917
And that is a problem for the
credibility of your leaders when you

662
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,117
say, "Oh, when it gets difficult for me,
when there's something that's hard, I

663
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,077
just lie about it. I just fill out
a bunch of paperwork and and it goes

664
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,117
away." That like that's actually
the real problem. So, if we're going to

665
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,557
exempt people from and I if it were me,
I would have said, you know, picked out

666
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,397
somebody. I would have said,
"Uh, general so and so,

667
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,117
I had this form right here signed by you

668
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,917
under threat of perjury says you could
do 50 push-ups. Drop and give me 50."

669
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,917
And of course, he wouldn't. and he'd say,
"I have no faith in your I have no

670
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,637
faith of Billy your ability to command
and how and how how could I trust

671
00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:15,037
anything you say if you're if you're
if you're if you're faking this." Um,

672
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,917
anyway, that's that's how I would have
handled it. But I'm not Pete Hegsath.

673
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:22,717
I'm just Palmer Lucky and I'm I'm I'm
I'm unable to uh dictate Department of

674
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,677
War policy currently.
>> Okay, maybe that'll change,

675
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:27,037
>> which is good. You shouldn't want the

676
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,797
the corporate uh you know tech techno

677
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,077
mega corp execs to control military
policy. I mean, you are wearing

678
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,517
flip-flops on stage right now,
so I think you're ready for the job. Um,

679
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,997
>> people ask all the time, Paul, would
you sell to this country or kind of that

680
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,517
country? I'm like, are you crazy?
You want the tech execs and the weapons

681
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,317
manufacturers to decide this? Like,
you don't you don't want there to be a

682
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,237
democratic process. You think this like
you trust the you trust the corpos? Um,

683
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,957
and then you're like, "Oh, no, that's
a really good point." I say, "Hell, yeah,

684
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,157
that's a great point. You should you
shouldn't have to trust me. Um, my job

685
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,597
is to build the weapons
and then there's an accountable

686
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,037
republic that you could participate
in that decides how they're used and it

687
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,077
shouldn't be up to we we can't live
in a corportocracy. That's crazy.

688
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:07,437
>> All right, let's talk about China.

689
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,197
Everyone I know is talking about this
book by Dan Wang. I'm sure you've read

690
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,717
it or heard about it. Break neck.
If people haven't read it, it's brilliant.

691
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:16,797
And the argument is basically this.

692
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,397
China is an engineering state.
It brings a sledgehammer

693
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,517
>> run by engineers even at the political
level. really intelligent people in

694
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,397
their political apparatus.
>> And you know, the fourth poorest

695
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,397
province has built nearly half of the

696
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,197
world's top 100 highest bridges. It has

697
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,437
11 airports. Unbelievable. In contrast,

698
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:37,997
what he says is that America is a nimi

699
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,117
shop that loves to organize and sue.

700
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,357
We're basically a lawyerly state. They

701
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,557
are an engineering state. What do you
make of that argument? Because obviously

702
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,957
>> it's totally true. >> It's it's true.
The difference of course

703
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,717
is that they don't have a choice. I >>
I I I mean I have to take this further

704
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,997
than what you're talking about. You're
talking about even mostly in a military

705
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,797
context. It's true culturally. Our

706
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,197
culture is being destroyed by a
pro-litigation, pro- nanny state

707
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,957
approach that I think so like I haven't
talked about this publicly so bear with

708
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,917
me. This idea is not sharpened yet,
but this is how you sharpen ideas. You put

709
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,997
them in the public sphere and you you
bang them into each other. Um, I was

710
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:20,237
talking with a major movie studio exec
recently about a film. Uh, has anyone

711
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,757
seen October Sky? >> October
Sky, great movie about kids

712
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,597
building rockets, hurting themselves
doing it, burning down buildings doing

713
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,277
it, and uh, you know, it really helped
to build our aerospace industry as they

714
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,837
became adults. Um, October Sky,
fantastic movie, um, made by, uh,

715
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,037
Touchstone, which was a, you know,
it's a Disney shop. And I was asking this

716
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,197
exec, why don't we see more movies like
October Sky? He said, oh, that's that's

717
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,717
super easy. Like this this question
I can answer ridiculously easy. It's

718
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,597
literally been discussed. We've talked
about doing things like that. You could

719
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,717
make a movie like that in the '90s.
If you made it today, you'd get sued for

720
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,357
showing kid like some kid's going
to blow their hand off and it'll be

721
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,077
unrelated. They won't even be inspired
by the movie. They're going to blow

722
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,037
their hand off with fireworks on the 4th
of July. And their lawyer is going to

723
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,517
find a friendly place to file a lawsuit.

724
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:06,397
They're going to sue the movie studio
and say, "You inspired my kid to do all

725
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,357
these dangerous things." and they're
either going to win a settlement from a

726
00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,157
favorable jury that's thinking
emotionally or they're going to get a

727
00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,117
settlement because it's a nuisance
lawsuit. He and and he pointed out like

728
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,877
this is also why in Lilo and Stitch they
changed it where uh where Lilo doesn't

729
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,557
get into it's a dryer, right? She gets
into a laundry bin. She doesn't get into

730
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,197
a washer. They changed that because they
released the VHS version. They got sued

731
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,437
by multiple people for kids supposedly
getting trapped in in drying machines.

732
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,717
And then for the DVD release,
they edited it. And then even for the live

733
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,357
action one, it's still edited. And so
they basically they say I I can't even

734
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,957
make these creative decisions correctly.

735
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,077
But here's the really crazy part.

736
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,717
October Sky is based on true story. I

737
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:46,637
said, "So you're telling me you cannot

738
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:50,877
accurately report on historical fact or

739
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:55,197
you will get sued?" He said, "It's
absolutely true. If I accurately depict

740
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,157
those things that have happened in
history, someone is going to come out of

741
00:41:58,240 --> 00:42:01,277
the woodwork and they're going to sue me
for it." That is not happening in China.

742
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,317
Nobody is suing the people who
are convincing kids to be aerospace

743
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,077
engineers. Have you seen Born to Fly?

744
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,317
>> No. >> It's one
of their new mega propaganda

745
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,917
pieces. The heroes are not fighter pilots.
It's the people designing and

746
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,117
building their fighter jets. And there's
a bunch of stuff that happens there. If

747
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,757
it was in the US, there'd probably be
a whole bunch of lawsuits like, "Oh my

748
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,357
god, you're inspiring kids to do all
these d horribly dangerous things." And

749
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,157
over there, that's never going to happen.
So, I guess my point is it's not

750
00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:26,717
just a military advantage. Our culture

751
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,957
itself, our spirit of innovation is

752
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,477
being tamped down by a continuously

753
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,237
operating legal class and saying, "Oh,
we can't tell that story. That'll get us

754
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,797
sued. Can't report that fact."
So, I've actually proposed

755
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,037
>> they have no political freedom. We do.

756
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,557
So, how >> Well, what I
what I want is I actually

757
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,837
want the government to say uh that you
cannot sue on these. It's a first

758
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,037
basically say it's a first amendment
issue. You can't sue people for

759
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,117
accurately reporting the the past even
if your kid blows his hand off. Sorry

760
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,237
that's >> but I want
to ask you like a a cultural

761
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,397
question which is >> how in a
country where you know all of

762
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,357
our companies are not actually
controlled by a centralized state and

763
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,597
that is a good thing. All of our best
engineers are not pressed into service

764
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,837
for the government they can go
and build anything they want.

765
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,397
>> No civil military fusion as policy

766
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,717
>> but I'm saying how
do you inspire people

767
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,597
in a free country to want to do those
kinds of things? I guess your answer is

768
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,117
more movies like Top Gun. Yeah, you need
more movies like October Sky. You need

769
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:27,437
more movies like they're the American
equivalent of Born to Fly. They've what

770
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,877
China is doing when people talk about
how their movies are decades behind the

771
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,157
United States. They forget that those
movies that were decades behind our

772
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:38,637
state-of-the-art are what convinced
a generation to fight the Cold War and to

773
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:42,237
build the best technological superpower
the world has ever seen. And they're

774
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,037
like, haha, China's movies, they're so
they're so they're so cliche. You have

775
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,477
you oh look at these engineers who
solve the day with their ridiculous

776
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,157
calculations. Oh that's ridiculous.

777
00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:56,317
>> Like that's Apollo 13 >>
and exactly and we need more of that

778
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,237
less of whatever it is the hell it
is we've been doing. And we might want to

779
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,997
realize that China might be behind
our film industry in terms of their

780
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,437
storytelling on purpose. It's very easy
to say oh they tell stories the way we

781
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,117
told them in the 80s and 90s.
Maybe that's on purpose. It worked.

782
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,037
>> Okay. The big question on China.

783
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:18,317
>> Who likes Top Gun?
That's that that that I should have just

784
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,117
answered with that. >> Okay.
So, the big question on China is

785
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,437
whether or not we're too late. You are

786
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,157
the emblem of kind of the American
dynamism movement, set of companies,

787
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:29,837
whatever you want to call it,
>> better for worse.

788
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,717
>> Yeah. And everyone
is ex everyone who is

789
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,797
watching I think is broadly excited

790
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,197
about the idea that some of our best and

791
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,957
brightest minds are creating companies
that are going to sort of the in in in

792
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,037
this for the sake
of the national interest.

793
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,797
>> But the question is is China
just too far ahead? Is it too late?

794
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,397
>> So I'm going to make two points. First
I truly do not believe that that is the

795
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,037
case. I do not think they are too far
ahead. There are a lot of advantages

796
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,317
that the United States can still bring
to bear and we absolutely can leverage

797
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,757
those advantages if we make the right
decisions. There's a second point that

798
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,797
is probably more important which is that
even if I'm wrong, this country needs

799
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,557
people like me who believe that it is.

800
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,597
So our country needs people

801
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,557
who believe things that are sometimes

802
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,997
irrational or obsessed with a particular

803
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,917
problem. And you want
them to believe that what

804
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,437
they're working on matters and that it
will definitely be relevant. Imagine if

805
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:29,517
I thought it was too late. That'd be
kind of crazy for me to be doing what

806
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,477
I'm doing, right? Like why would I be
putting all my time into this? It is

807
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,197
important that the United States has
people like me who believe it's never

808
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:36,637
too late. We can still turn things

809
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:39,677
around and I'm going to be part of it.

810
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,957
Similarly, would you trust a boat
designer who thinks that the Titanic is

811
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,837
unsinkable? You know,
would you trust a lifeboat

812
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,837
designer that thinks that? Would you
trust a uh an airbag designer who thinks

813
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,237
that cars can't crash? No. You you want
someone who believes that their work is

814
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,757
going to matter, that it's going to save
the day. And obviously, we know cars are

815
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,917
going to crash. But I think that this
applies equally to outcomes that are

816
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,637
unlikely. Even if there's only a 1 in a

817
00:46:06,720 --> 00:46:09,837
million chance that we go into a hot war

818
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,917
with China, a World War
III by any definition,

819
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,677
you should be really glad that there's
a bunch of nutty people like me and all

820
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,077
through our military and all through our
industrial base who believe that we can

821
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,357
win that fight. Even if we're wrong,
it's important that we believe that it's

822
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:29,117
possible to win. And so I I guess
the real point that I'm making here is I

823
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,717
really do happen to believe that it's
not too late. I really do think that we

824
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,397
can because remember our goal is not
to beat China in a fight necessarily. It's

825
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,917
to deter them from invading in the first
place. There's a lot of ways you can do

826
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,717
that. You can make them think that day
one of the invasion is going to be too

827
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:47,917
painful. You can make them think
that day 100 of the invasion economically

828
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,117
with global trade is going to be too
painful. You can make them believe that

829
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:53,037
day 1000 they're still going to be

830
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,357
fighting against uh anti-Chinese

831
00:46:55,440 --> 00:47:00,477
insurgency in Taiwan armed by the United
States covertly that makes Afghanistan

832
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,477
look like a cakewalk. Like and you want
all of these things rumbling around in

833
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:08,717
their head as they consider whether
or not to launch that invasion. Um and I

834
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:13,277
think that there's still room to change
their minds. Uh but even if I'm wrong,

835
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,237
there have to be people who who believe
that. Same thing with like fusion.

836
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,237
There's people who say fusion will never
be economical. I am very glad that there

837
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,517
are smart people who have not figured
that out because they are working on it

838
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,037
and uh even if they never get there I
will be glad that we worked on it and we

839
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:31,800
really did our best. >> You recently

840
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:37,757
you recently went to Taiwan. >> Yep.

841
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,277
>> Spoke at a commencement address.

842
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,277
>> I've been there several
times again recently.

843
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,717
>> But you gave sort of like this
galvanizing address. I think we ran it

844
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:49,597
in the free press. basically
saying defend defend your homeland.

845
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,117
>> An edited and a bridged version.

846
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:55,277
>> Okay. But basically saying we
edit well def defend your homeland.

847
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,517
>> Why was it so important
to you to do that?

848
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,077
>> So first of all, you know, like in in
the same way that I think it's important

849
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,877
for people to believe that it's not
too late for the United States to do its

850
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,797
part in turning, you know, turning
this Chinese decision. You want Taiwan to

851
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:11,357
believe the same thing. They need
to believe that they could win that fight

852
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,397
and that there are decisions they could
make that would cause them to win it.

853
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,837
Because the moment that they think they
can't win, that's the moment China has

854
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:21,917
won. Right? If Taiwan really believes
that they can, that that this is

855
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,277
inevitable, they're going to get rolled,
that is the moment that China knows that

856
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,797
they can get away with it. And so it's
important for them independent of the

857
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,197
reality to believe that they can do it.

858
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:35,117
What I really also wanted to point out
is that Taiwan and and just to give you

859
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:38,877
you know a bit of the same lecture I
gave them. Taiwan is one of five maybe

860
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:43,277
six countries in the world that could
credibly build their own industrial base

861
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,677
to build weapons of their own design,
own components from scratch from nothing

862
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,797
that can go toe-to-toe with China.
You basically have like the United States,

863
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,517
Japan, Korea, maybe Germany on a good

864
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:57,917
day and Taiwan. Uh, and there's not
many nations in the world that could say

865
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,357
that. And they need to be proud of that.

866
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,477
And they need to leverage the hell out
of that. They need to be using their own

867
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,837
national industry to build not
just semiconductors for export, but

868
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,997
semiconductors for defense. Not just
sensors for your smartphones and for

869
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,477
digital cameras, but missile seekers.

870
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:17,197
Not just carbon fiber bicycles,
but carbon fiber cruise missiles. And uh,

871
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,357
that got a pretty good a pretty good
reaction. Another point I would probably

872
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:23,997
make is I got protested by uh it was at

873
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:29,517
the Taiwan National University and there
was a student group it was like uh you I

874
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,477
forget they all the same name like
students for Palestine something like

875
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:37,117
that. Um it got the idea across they're
students and they like Palestine. Uh and

876
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:40,717
implicit in that is they don't like
Israel. Um anyway they were protesting

877
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,717
outside and they had all these signs
saying you know Palmer Lucky builds

878
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:47,517
weapons that kill the weapons of

879
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:52,157
genocide. And I actually I started my
speech. I said, "I I I hate to I hate to

880
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:54,477
let those guy." And they were all
screaming. You could hear them in the

881
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:59,117
auditorium. Oh, like you could you hear
them very clearly chanting outside and I

882
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,477
told her, I said, "I just want to let
you guys know like without taking even a

883
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,637
position on that conflict." And actually
never sold anything to Israel. No, none

884
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:09,437
of our stuff has ever been used in this
conflict. So these people they're they

885
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:11,997
must be confused. They think that I'm
somebody else. They're protesting

886
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,797
something that I actually have nothing
to do with. If you want to protest me

887
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,237
and say Palmer Lucky, like you know,
he he has these horrible ideas. Palmer

888
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,917
Lucky, he supported Donald Trump.
Palmer Lucky, worst haircut of all time,

889
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:23,597
>> like those are reasons.
>> I'm not gonna disagree with that.

890
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,437
>> But to say that I'm building the tools
that Israel is using uh in Gaza, it's

891
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,237
just strictly not factual. And actually,
we have some protesters outside today

892
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,037
who are protesting the same thing. Like,
we're here to tell you the truth about

893
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:34,797
Androl. >> But what
are they really saying?

894
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:35,997
>> I think what they're really saying is,

895
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:37,997
I'm angry. Right.

896
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,237
>> And uh and then and and then for for

897
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,917
better or for worse, I end up being
the lightning bolt. You end up being the

898
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,477
lightning bolt that attracts
that attracts their eye. We had some

899
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:52,157
protesters that planned to protest
outside of Andreal HQ recently. And it

900
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:56,397
was the same thing. They said, "You come
to protest and support for genocide in

901
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,917
Gaza." And we tweeted about like, "Hey,
just so you guys know, like this is a

902
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,477
this is a dumb protest, but you can come.
We're going to have a we're going

903
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,517
to have bagels for you guys."
Um, and I saw that

904
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,917
>> we we put out bagels for them
and then they cancelled because there was

905
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,357
drizzle. There was like 30 minutes of
drizzle and they didn't come and we were

906
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:13,917
so bummed. >> You had like
blue and But I I will say

907
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,917
blue and white. There was an incredible
profile of you written by Jeremy Stern

908
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:23,277
and Tablet and you did describe yourself
in that story to him as a radical Zionist.

909
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,077
>> That's right. >> Why?
>> Because I strongly believe that Israel

910
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,757
has a right to exist. And that that that's

911
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:33,917
Thank you. But isn't
that an insane? Like the idea

912
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,437
that a country that already exists that
you need to say that it has a right to

913
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,117
exist. How did we get to that point
that you even have to say that?

914
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,317
>> I don't know. I mean I remember
when people were saying that I was an

915
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:46,477
anti-semite for supporting Donald Trump.

916
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,157
Like I'm not I'm not kidding. Like ours
Technica wrote a did a story around the

917
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:53,117
time I gave nine grand and they said
this was also just like totally false.

918
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:55,677
It was literally invented by lying
journalists who are never held to

919
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:59,357
account by their peers because nobody
cares about credibility. By the way, I

920
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,597
was a journalism major and I was online.

921
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,437
Yes, I was. I I I was a journalism major.
I was a semester and a half away

922
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:09,197
from getting my degree. Uh I was the
online editor of the Daily 49er, one of

923
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:12,077
the largest student newspapers in the
country. It's not the Daily 49er anymore

924
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:13,597
because gold miners, they decided after

925
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,717
100 years are racist. But but but but I

926
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:21,917
didn't know that at the time. And um uh
what was I talking about before? I can't

927
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,117
even remember. >> I was asking how it
came. You were called an anti-semit.

928
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:26,557
>> Oh, yeah.
They're saying Paul Morucky is

929
00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:31,277
flooding the internet with anti-semitic,
hateful, anti-Jewish memes. Like, why?

930
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,517
Why would I do that? I love the Jews. It

931
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,317
was it was just it was like I remember a

932
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,957
time when being anti-Semitic was a thing

933
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:43,917
that the left was really really like
not okay with. I mean, like I was getting

934
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,197
attacked as just like one of the random,
you know, grabb smear of the day. What

935
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:50,717
are you? You're racist and anti-semitic.

936
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,357
Just what else is in here?

937
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,797
Oh, and you it was I I I I really don't

938
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:01,597
know why the shift has been so crazy.
It almost feels like Look, I'm way outside

939
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,957
my depth. You should ask me questions
about weapons. I'm now into like

940
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,957
psychoanalyst. I'll say it seems like
people are angry and they want something

941
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:13,117
to be angry about and this is something
they can make themselves angry about.

942
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,837
And I think that it just as easily could
have actually been something else. Like

943
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,357
I don't think that there's a bunch
of young people who truly like hate Jews

944
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,357
and grew up hating Zionism. Like most
of these kids, they were basically

945
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,357
radicalized in an instant overnight by
a flash mob on social media. They have no

946
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:28,877
idea what the underlying history is.

947
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,877
They have no idea what Israel is or how
it came to be or how the borders came to

948
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,597
where they were. They don't know
anything about Palestine either. Like

949
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,037
they don't know anything about this.
It was just a social media flash mob that

950
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,557
instantly radicalized all these kids.

951
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,837
I'm hoping that they all get married
and they have kids and they calm down and

952
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,877
and uh they they they find something
else to be passionate about like like

953
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,407
like education or or Tylenol autism.

954
00:53:50,490 --> 00:53:55,517
[Laughter]

955
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,080
Oh my god,

956
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:02,077
>> there's more viral clips from this

957
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:06,717
conversation that are going to get
me in so much trouble and I'm just

958
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,397
anticipating the Twitter reaction.

959
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:09,437
>> Only I can get in trouble.

960
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,237
>> Yeah, you're right. Okay, so

961
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,597
>> it's like Trump said,
no bad can happen.

962
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,557
Only good thing can happen.

963
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,957
>> And unforgettable. So, let's talk about
sort of the future of war. We recently

964
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,957
ran this incredible essay by Neil
Ferguson. He, you know, went to see the

965
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,637
future of war and was basically like,
"Hey guys, news flash." For those of you

966
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:34,797
who haven't been to Ukraine and Russia
recently, it's basically just drone

967
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,717
warfare. That's right,
is what he described.

968
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,157
>> Very few of the kills are with
conventional weapons like rifles. It's

969
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:43,757
it's primarily with Well, there's still
a lot of artillery going on. Artillery

970
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:47,117
is still kicking ass. Um but yeah, like

971
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:48,877
tell us about a lot of drone for those

972
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,997
of us who are civilians kind of having

973
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,957
the luxury of not sleepwalking but who

974
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:56,477
don't have to pay attention to what's

975
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,997
going on at the fight, you know, between

976
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,877
civilization and univilization. What is

977
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:06,237
war going to look like 10, 20, 30 years

978
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:10,717
from now? And how are you building
in order to anticipate that? You've talked

979
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,797
about how Andrew's building killer robot
like explain that. Pretend my mom is

980
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:18,877
sitting here in the first row. She has
no idea really what Andreal is. She's

981
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:20,317
like, "Who is this guy with the soul

982
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,717
patch and the weird haircut?" And and

983
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,157
how is this relevant to my life and and

984
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:30,957
the security of America? Explain to her
what war is going to look like 20 25

985
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,317
years from now. >> So,
a few things that's worth noting

986
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:39,037
here. War, the war in Ukraine is we should

987
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,877
learn from it. There's things that we
have to learn from it. There's a lot of

988
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:46,317
things that we should not overlearn from
it in the same way you can overtrain an

989
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,557
AI model and overfitit it to a
particular solution. You can do that

990
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,477
when you're looking at a particular war.

991
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,437
The US has done a great job of this in
the past by the way looking at how we

992
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,197
fought the last war. Building a military
apparatus that's can fight that war

993
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,237
really well. Turns out we should have
built a different war machine. The next

994
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,757
war looks completely different. uh a lot
of things that we're seeing in Ukraine I

995
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:10,797
think would be different in a conflict
with let's say a China uh or and let's

996
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,837
say not even say just US conflicts you
asked about war in general right let's

997
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,717
say like a war between uh like India and

998
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,397
one of its neighbors or China and one of

999
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:20,957
its neighbors um you're going to see

1000
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,917
this huge divide in how wars are fought

1001
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:29,277
between countries that highly highly
value human life and ones that do not

1002
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:33,117
value it so highly and I'm not saying
this in like a culturally critical

1003
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:36,797
sense. It's just a fact. There are
countries that literally in terms of

1004
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,797
insurance payouts, in terms of criminal

1005
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,597
penalties, even even on a GDP adjusted

1006
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,637
basis value life much less than the

1007
00:56:44,720 --> 00:56:46,877
United States and most Western European

1008
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,997
nations. Um, for example, I don't think

1009
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,237
China is going to adopt drones the same

1010
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,037
way that you've seen uh heavy adoption

1011
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,677
in Russia and Ukraine because they have
so many people, such an enormous surplus

1012
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,437
of single men who are never going
to get a wife. their calculus is just

1013
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:06,957
completely different. Like why would
they spend a bunch of money trying to

1014
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,917
automate a fighter jet to fight as about
as well as a person when I can just put

1015
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,397
a person in it? And people say, "Oh my,
you know, they don't want to lose those

1016
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,997
pilots." Well, what if I have a war
machine that can turn out enormous

1017
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:21,197
numbers of pilots? That's I I what I'm
really trying to get here is it's going

1018
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:26,157
to be a little uneven. It's not going to
be the future is not going to be drone v

1019
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,077
drone between every country. You're
going to see more drones deployed by

1020
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,757
countries that have more manufacturing
capacity, fewer drones deployed by

1021
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:37,357
countries that have less. You're going
to see more drones deployed by countries

1022
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,957
that highly value human life.
You're going to see more manned systems or

1023
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,637
hybridized systems where you have AI
maybe like helping the fighter pilot,

1024
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,237
but the human is still in the cockpit
making the calls. Maybe the AI takes

1025
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,317
over if he passes out or gets blown up
or whatever. But I guess what I'm really

1026
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,037
getting is it's going to look very
different for every country. People are

1027
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,197
going to be building to their particular
strengths. For example, China is trying

1028
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:03,757
to build a war machine that can cross
the straight of Taiwan, invade Taiwan,

1029
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:08,557
and move massive amounts of war material
across the sea and the sky into Taiwan

1030
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,237
so they can occupy it, take over
their factories, take over their levers of

1031
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:16,717
power, take over their bureaucracy,
and occupy them for years and years until

1032
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,237
things stabilize. That is a very
different war machine than what Russia

1033
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,237
has built, which was designed really
to fight Europe. And now they're

1034
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,597
repurposing it to to take more of Ukraine.
And that's very different than

1035
00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:30,717
what the United States is trying
to build for our strategic interests. Most

1036
00:58:30,800 --> 00:58:34,077
of the systems the United States
is building are not tools of conquest.

1037
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,197
They're tools of protection. We are
trying to build stuff that turns all of

1038
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,717
our allies into prickly porcupines
that nobody wants to step on. What is our

1039
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,237
hottest export? It's Patriot missile
batteries. It's a lot of these CW whiz

1040
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:47,917
and CRAM systems that are taking things
close in. People are not begging us for

1041
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,317
our most powerful offensive weapons for
the most part. They want these extremely

1042
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,757
powerful defensive tools of and of
course but I know there's people think

1043
00:58:55,840 --> 00:58:58,877
but Palmer like what about what about
high mars and you know what what what

1044
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,117
about these power like what about what
what about all these cruise missiles

1045
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:05,037
like yes of course there are offensive
tools but the hottest commodities are

1046
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,997
things like rounds for your Patriot
batteries. And if you don't believe me

1047
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,117
ask the Saudis what they're willing
to pay per round right now. It turns out

1048
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:15,517
that a Patriot missile costing $3
million, way cheaper than a refinery

1049
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,717
being destroyed. And so you can spend
a lot of cruise missiles before that math

1050
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,757
works out. So I guess to answer
your question, what does war look like?

1051
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:23,917
Everyone's going to be using different
things. It's going to be a total

1052
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:27,037
mishmash of human, robot, automated, and

1053
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,437
not. And it's going to be a it's going
to be a bit of a mess if any of these

1054
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:34,877
wars actually start. We we just we
have to stop them from existing. Homer,

1055
00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:39,197
what's the lesson from the fact that
America spent like a billion dollars

1056
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,837
attacking the Houthis who operated out

1057
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:45,117
of speedboats and shot down Reaper

1058
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:49,437
drones that cost like $30 million
a piece and the Houthis are still there?

1059
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,717
Like what what lesson
can we gain from that?

1060
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,637
So the first thing I would say is we we
we shouldn't underestimate the Houthis

1061
00:59:56,720 --> 01:00:00,877
too much because yes, you they're
a bunch of pirates living in shacks, but

1062
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,877
they are also armed by Iran with
extremely powerful weapon systems. And

1063
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:08,317
then most importantly, uh Iranian
intelligence. So they're being told,

1064
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:09,837
"Hey, this is happening at this time.

1065
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,237
Here's the radar track. Here's where
you need to be. Here's where you position

1066
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,797
yourself, and this will allow you
to take that one in a hundred shot that

1067
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:18,477
knocks this thing out of the sky."
Um so I I I do I do worry sometimes that

1068
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:20,717
that's another one of those ones that
people overlearn from. They're like, "Oh

1069
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:25,597
my god, the story is that pirates in in
mud pits can shoot down reapers." It's

1070
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:29,357
like, well, well, yeah, when you have
one of the most powerful manufacturing

1071
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:32,877
economies in the Middle East, at least
in terms of war material, backing them

1072
01:00:32,960 --> 01:00:36,637
up, yes, they can do that. Um, but if
they were on their own, they would just

1073
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:41,997
be they'd just be walking around not not
not pulling any of that off. Um, but I

1074
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,717
think that one of the things that we
can learn is that a lot of these wars are

1075
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,557
going to look very much like the proxy
wars that we've seen fought during the

1076
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,157
Cold War. I think that there is a lot
of reticence on the part of superpowers to

1077
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:56,477
actually go toe-to-toe with one another,
even for our national interests. And uh

1078
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:58,717
I I I I worry that you're going to see

1079
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:00,557
proxy conflicts where you find people

1080
01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,837
who are fighting for bad causes that

1081
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:08,077
happen to be aligned with US interests
or Chinese interests or Indian interests

1082
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,597
or really any of these. We need to be
very careful to align ourselves with

1083
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,437
people who are supportive of our
interests but for the right reasons.

1084
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,677
Otherwise, we're going to pull the same
[__] we did again where, you know,

1085
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,597
yesterday's freedom fighter is today's
terrorist. And there there are people

1086
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:25,597
who they were aligned with US interests.

1087
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,797
A lot of people don't quite understand,
particularly like younger people my

1088
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:31,197
generation who had to, you know, you
have to read a book to learn this stuff.

1089
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,357
And books just aren't popular anymore.

1090
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:37,677
Um, but a lot of these people,
it's not like we gave it to them and they

1091
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,197
secretly in their hearts always wanted
to destroy the United States. It's that

1092
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,117
at the time their interests were aligned
with the United States and then later

1093
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:49,677
they were not. And so we have to be very
careful about arming people and allying

1094
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,957
with people whose interests have the
potential to significantly diverge. And

1095
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,077
I'm not going to name any names. I will
not tell you who I think it is. But I

1096
01:01:56,160 --> 01:02:00,157
will tell you there are superpowers
in the world or emerging superpowers at

1097
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:04,637
least who we are friendly with and allying
ourselves with that I think have

1098
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:10,317
the potential to be very dangerous as our
economic interests diverge. And so, uh,

1099
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:13,757
>> who are you thinking of?
>> I can't say because it would be bad for

1100
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,037
Trump's ability to negotiate trade deals
currently, and I'm not going to do that

1101
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,077
to him. I'm going to give him everything
he needs to win the art of the deal.

1102
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:21,437
Have you ever read The Art of the Deal?

1103
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:22,717
>> I've actually never read it.

1104
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,957
>> You got to read it. I mean, it's it
is it my favorite part of the art of and I

1105
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,277
I read it first when I So, I don't know
if you know this. I wrote a letter to

1106
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,197
Trump when I was 15 telling him to run
for president. Um, so this was way

1107
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,957
before this he this was back when he was
thinking about running against Obama and

1108
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,837
he said I'll only do it if I get enough

1109
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,077
people telling me that I have to then I
have no choice. I would have to run. Um,

1110
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,957
and I was one of the people doing but I
read Art of the Deal when I was 12 or

1111
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,637
13. And one of the, you know, setting
aside the contents of the book, it's

1112
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,757
worth in hindsight people like, "Oh,
how does Trump think?" And you see these

1113
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:56,877
think pieces and the thinkfluencers
and they're like, "We're trying to get

1114
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,477
inside the mind of Donald Trump."
And all they have to do is read Art of the

1115
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:02,637
Deal. And it explains his negotiating

1116
01:03:02,720 --> 01:03:06,077
strategy, his style, how and why he lies

1117
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,477
to the press. And like I and I've lied
to the press, you know, and and and you

1118
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,037
look at that, you're like, and like he
he talks about his strategy of how you

1119
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:16,157
do earned media. He's like, "Here's
how you get them to write about you. And

1120
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:20,557
here's how even when it's bad, it's good."
And so like it Art of the Deal is

1121
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,637
basically a must-read in the modern
climate. If you have any interest in

1122
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,477
understanding Trump or how these deals
are going to go, you have to read the

1123
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:30,477
bestselling New York Times bestselling

1124
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:35,917
novel, The Art of the Deal. It's on sale
on Amazon right now. You can buy it.

1125
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,997
They haven't banned it yet.
>> Let's go back to let's talk about just

1126
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:44,557
war and the way that technology
and AI is affecting war. Okay.

1127
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,517
>> As we were speaking to Dexter Filkins
ahead of this interview, he wrote this

1128
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,477
incredible piece recently for the New
Yorker. Do you remember the headline?

1129
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,117
You're in the piece. It's about
the future of war and whether or not

1130
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,357
America's ready for it. And you're

1131
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,357
basically kind of building for a world

1132
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:02,637
in which a drone can sort of pick
the target, fire the shot. Some call them

1133
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:05,437
killer robots.
You've called them killer robots. One

1134
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,197
>> one issue here is a concept
though called jamming where basically

1135
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,917
adversaries can mess with the signal and

1136
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,797
cut off the human from their own AI

1137
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:19,117
weapon. And so you have to kind
of design these things to do the mission

1138
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:23,197
without human input. Yeah,
jamming is why you need autonomy.

1139
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:25,197
>> Explain that to people. >> So,
there's a lot of people that have

1140
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:29,037
this this sound bite that sounds good
in an interview and people nod their heads

1141
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:31,837
like it's this profound thing. You know,
you know what I'm talking about? That

1142
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:34,957
the interviewer,

1143
01:04:35,040 --> 01:04:37,837
they say, "We all agree that robots

1144
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:41,997
shouldn't be able to decide who to kill."

1145
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,197
But the problem is that leads
to impossible situations where for example

1146
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:48,077
if you really say that a robot can't
decide which target to strike. That

1147
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:52,157
means that somebody to stop you.
All they have to do is jam your signal. I

1148
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:55,037
don't really want the balance of power

1149
01:04:55,120 --> 01:05:00,157
in the entire world to be decided by who
has better radio frequency RF engineers.

1150
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:03,437
Like that that that's quite crazy. That
puts a lot of power in the hands of the

1151
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,397
nerds who draw antennas and schematics.

1152
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:10,637
Um, and so you really need autonomy so
that you even if someone can jam your

1153
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,757
systems, they can still execute their
mission. They can still do their best.

1154
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,517
Um, the same thing they say, "Oh, well,
you you agree that a gun should you an

1155
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,477
AI should never be able to decide when
to pull the trigger." And the point that

1156
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:24,077
I've made over and over again is there's
no moral high ground in a landmine that

1157
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,717
can't tell the difference between
Russian armor and a school bus. And you

1158
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:30,397
acting like it is, you know, oh yes,
of course, of course, you know, a should

1159
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:33,837
never pull the trigger. It's kind
of crazy. I'll note there's actually one

1160
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,397
reason separate from jamming like there.
People have proposed, well, what

1161
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,197
if we just make jamming a war crime?
I'm not I'm not kidding. This is like an

1162
01:05:41,280 --> 01:05:44,077
actual UN proposal as well. What if we

1163
01:05:44,160 --> 01:05:48,317
just make everything remotely piloted,
but we make it a war crime to jam the

1164
01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,997
link? And like that that's crazy. Could
you imagine what a fragile system that

1165
01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:54,797
would be? Everybody builds these
militaries and then the moment that some

1166
01:05:54,880 --> 01:05:58,077
dude goes to a truck stop and buys
a cell phone jammer from a guy in the

1167
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:00,557
parking lot and turns it on,
their military falls apart.

1168
01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:01,997
>> Like dragged in front of the H.

1169
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:05,277
>> Yeah. Like it would it would Yeah.
like it's it's a nonsense proposal that

1170
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:07,917
people take seriously. There's another
reason that you don't necessarily want

1171
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,157
to have uh it's not just jamming.

1172
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,837
Autonomous systems allow you to turn
off your radios so that you don't have to

1173
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:18,317
transmit. Right now, if I do a remotely
piloted drone, I'm by definition

1174
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:22,157
constantly emitting a signal. And that
means that there's a signal that someone

1175
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,037
can figure out how to localize,
how to track. And so people say, "Well, we

1176
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,077
should just have all these things be
remotely piloted. A person should always

1177
01:06:28,160 --> 01:06:32,317
be watching the feed." I say, "What
you're really saying is every US drone

1178
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:36,477
needs to have a transponder beacon on it
that says, "Here I am. Here I am. Here I

1179
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:37,997
am. Come and get me. Come and get me."

1180
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,277
You can even build missiles that are
rad seeking missiles that go after

1181
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:44,157
electromagnetic radiation. They don't
even need cameras. They just have a set

1182
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:47,757
of antennas on them and they just fly at
the signal that's being emitted and then

1183
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:51,597
blow it up. It's very effective. We've
been doing it since Vietnam. Uh so the

1184
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:54,237
other reason you need autonomy is so
that you don't have to have systems

1185
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,117
emitting. That's one of the most
powerful things man systems can do today

1186
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,277
that something like an MQ9 cannot. An

1187
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:04,317
MQ9 has to be transmitting. There
are ways to track that. Uh a guy in an

1188
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:07,837
airplane can turn all of his radios off
and be fully stealth. And the only way

1189
01:07:07,920 --> 01:07:11,117
to mimic that without a person being
in it is to make an AI brain that's really

1190
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:14,797
smart. Have you ever seen that movie
Stealth? You ever seen that one from

1191
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:19,437
2005 with the AI fighter jet named Eddie
and then it gets hit by lightning and it

1192
01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,637
turns evil and tries
to start a nuclear war.

1193
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,997
>> Great movie. I think it's a Jessica
Beal and Jamie Fox movie. Really, really

1194
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,997
terrible. But you you asked you asked
earlier, you know, what does Andrew do?

1195
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,517
And the answer is that we build that
thing from stealth and we make sure it

1196
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:39,437
doesn't get hit by lightning.
>> In many ways, you're you're 33. Okay.

1197
01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:44,477
You are >> Oh my god. >> I know
you're so old. Um you're kind of

1198
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:48,077
increasingly, I would say, and you'll
tell me if this is wrong, out of step

1199
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,277
with the average 33-year-old male Trump

1200
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,117
supporter online.
and and and not in maybe taste.

1201
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,277
>> This is an interesting one.
How am I out of step?

1202
01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,117
>> Because you're not an isolationist.

1203
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,477
>> Ah, that's true. Because I'm generally
a fan of trade. Like I I think we should

1204
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,037
be working. >> But also,
no, you're you're basically

1205
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:07,997
sitting up here making an argument that

1206
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:12,077
America should still be the world's
policemen. That is what you're doing.

1207
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,557
And in that way, and and this is what I

1208
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,637
want you to talk about, the right,

1209
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,997
especially the the you know, people that

1210
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:24,397
spend a lot of time on X, people that
watch a lot of Tucker Carlson, they're

1211
01:08:24,480 --> 01:08:26,717
of the Pat Buchanan school. They they

1212
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,437
believe that not only should we not have

1213
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:31,677
boots on the ground, fine, but that even

1214
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:34,557
something like Israel's targeting of

1215
01:08:34,640 --> 01:08:39,757
Iran's nuclear facilities in June, that
that was going to drag us into World War

1216
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:44,317
II. the right is moving very rapidly in an

1217
01:08:44,400 --> 01:08:47,997
isolationist direction. What do you
think of that and why is that going on

1218
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:51,997
right now? >> I mean,
I think part of the reason that

1219
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,077
people are doing this is there's so many

1220
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:56,717
areas where everything we do abroad was

1221
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,597
clearly poorly planned, poorly executed,

1222
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:03,757
some form of grift for somebody back
in the US. use and and this is true not

1223
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,237
just with the military but you know a

1224
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:11,277
lot of things that we've done on the USA
ID front on the state department front a

1225
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:13,037
lot of foreign aid and I I think there's

1226
01:09:13,120 --> 01:09:16,797
just a loss of trust in the system that

1227
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:20,877
it's actually acting in the US interest
there's a belief I I think it would

1228
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,477
there used to be a pretty strong
national belief that even if what the US

1229
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:28,077
was doing was wrong ethically it was at
least in the national interest there's

1230
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:29,917
now a belief that it's all basically

1231
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,517
some form of you uh pro- globalism, pro-

1232
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,517
new world order uh politics or or less

1233
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:41,677
threateningly just some guy trying
to skim money off of the top. And so that

1234
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,797
that is why when we have those things
happen, they're so damaged. And I think

1235
01:09:44,880 --> 01:09:48,637
those people who who who degrade that
trust should be in prison for life. It

1236
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:52,957
is it is it is treasonous like
to to to abuse the position.

1237
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,797
>> Give me an example.
I think that a lot of the people who

1238
01:09:56,880 --> 01:09:59,277
were involved, for example, in the aid

1239
01:09:59,360 --> 01:10:02,077
that went supposedly to Haiti, where we

1240
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:04,637
were helping them rebuild, and we know

1241
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:07,517
for a fact that it was used like like it

1242
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:11,757
was not used to build to build housing
for Haitians. That's for sure. I don't

1243
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,397
think that those people should have been
let off with a slap on the wrist. That

1244
01:10:14,480 --> 01:10:18,077
should have been treated as just like
this absolutely unforgivable thing. you

1245
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:22,317
you are you are abusing your position
in a way that will cause the entire body

1246
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:27,197
populace to lose trust in the American
project in the American experiment. And

1247
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:30,557
so that that's part of it. I I also I
what what what would they call George

1248
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,077
Bush? What was it? This is it's been
a long time. A compassionate conservative.

1249
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:38,397
And this was part of how he justified
his foreign policy. I remember being oh

1250
01:10:38,480 --> 01:10:42,877
I mean single digit years old.
And I remember saying, "Mom,

1251
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:47,037
why do we even care what all of these
people in, you know, like all these all

1252
01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:50,237
these sand people out in the desert,
like why do we care about what they're

1253
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:53,037
doing?" And uh and she said, "Well, you

1254
01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:57,517
know, sometimes there are people who are
in a weaker position than you and it's

1255
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:01,757
your job to stand up for them." I said,
"But why?" She said, "Well, if you're

1256
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,117
imagine imagine that you're, you know,
imagine you're a strong, you know,

1257
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,997
you're a strong guy and you're on the
playground." I was young enough that

1258
01:11:08,080 --> 01:11:11,437
this didn't I didn't quite see the you
know why am I a strong guy standing on a

1259
01:11:11,520 --> 01:11:14,797
playground. I'm like a little kid.
And I said well it says imagine you're a

1260
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,197
strong guy. You're standing on a
playground and um and imagine that

1261
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:23,117
someone is uh is uh making fun of your
little sister. What are you going to do?

1262
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:25,197
I said well I'm going to tell them
to stop. She says well what if they start

1263
01:11:25,280 --> 01:11:28,397
beating up your little sister? I said
well I'm going to beat him up. And she

1264
01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:32,717
says well you know why is that any
of your business? I said well because you

1265
01:11:32,800 --> 01:11:36,397
know I I I like my sister and I don't
want people to beat her up. And and this

1266
01:11:36,480 --> 01:11:39,037
is as explained by mom
to her six-year-old kid.

1267
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:41,597
>> Alliances. >> Yeah.
She's like, "Look, it is important

1268
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:44,717
the people that you like, the people
that you love, the people that you want

1269
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:49,517
to maintain relationships with, you
can't just watch them get beat up and uh

1270
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:53,357
and and be okay with it. You you have
some moral obligation to get involved."

1271
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:56,157
Now, there's there's times
where that can go too far,

1272
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,837
>> but that used to be common that used
to be the common sensical position.

1273
01:11:59,920 --> 01:12:02,477
>> Yeah. So, I this I
I agree. I mean, this

1274
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,077
was the Republican position, right?
like I mean this we have to go in and you

1275
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:09,357
know we have to help these people who
are being uh who are being abused by

1276
01:12:09,440 --> 01:12:13,757
this dictator. We have to help these
people who uh you know who who are in

1277
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:17,437
some way being taken advantage of.
Um I arguably you know that was obviously

1278
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,757
there were interest reasons for World
War II. But definitely the the the real

1279
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,277
moral impetus and I think the people
that that got people fired up was was

1280
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,797
the was the moral compass version of this.
Um I don't think people were like

1281
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:33,117
wow this is really going to be bad for
future trade if Europe is controlled by

1282
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:35,917
Hitler. I don't think that's why you
had 17-year-olds signing up in the Marine

1283
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,677
Corps. Um, >> people
on the right right now,

1284
01:12:39,760 --> 01:12:40,957
>> this has changed and I

1285
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:43,277
>> they think that Hitler was kind of okay

1286
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:47,117
and Churchill was No, I I I hate that. I

1287
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:49,037
I'm so I'm so I'm so sick of those

1288
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:51,597
people. Um, no, I don't know. Maybe I

1289
01:12:51,680 --> 01:12:54,957
mean, look, I I there's two things that

1290
01:12:55,040 --> 01:12:59,117
are stuck in my mind. One is I see
all of this happening and I do worry a

1291
01:12:59,200 --> 01:13:04,237
little bit that I'm going to end up
being like one of those uh like uh

1292
01:13:04,320 --> 01:13:07,597
Clinton era Democrats. You know what
I'm talking about where like they didn't

1293
01:13:07,680 --> 01:13:10,477
leave the party. The party just ran away
from them. I'm afraid that that's going

1294
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,517
to be me. I'm going to be I'm going to be
a Republican here. I'm like we got to

1295
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:17,437
help the people that are being killed
by the dictators, you know? And they say,

1296
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:21,757
"Wow, you're such a globalist."
I'm like, "Whoa, I

1297
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:25,037
>> that's going to be in like 3 months
from now." So here, okay, at the pace that

1298
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:26,877
things are going, >> I there's
one thing I would disagree

1299
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:30,717
with you on, though. I I I agree.
I'm definitely not an isolationist to the

1300
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:35,117
like I I am not as a as a libertarian
type of person. I'm not that

1301
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:38,637
pro-interventionist, having grown up
seeing what happened in the Middle East

1302
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:43,277
and our misadventures there. I what
I've said is that I don't want to be the

1303
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:47,117
world police. The United States cannot
be in the position of sending our men

1304
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,597
and women abroad to die for other

1305
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:54,157
countries interests. No, but the
playground analogy is about alliances.

1306
01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:57,917
>> Oh, no. I agree. And what I think
we need to do like I there's a lot of

1307
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,037
reasons I don't think we should send
our people to die. I also think we don't

1308
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,477
have it politically in us. Like even
if I think that politically it is not on

1309
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:08,077
the table. America is not going to send
a million people to die for any European

1310
01:14:08,160 --> 01:14:10,957
nation. It just will never happen. Given

1311
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:15,117
that constraint, given that I
don't think we have it in us in this

1312
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:18,877
generation to be the world police,
I think we have to be, as I said earlier,

1313
01:14:18,960 --> 01:14:23,517
the world's gun store. And we need to be
willing and able to provide everyone

1314
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,997
with the tools they need to defend
themselves and say, "You know what,

1315
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,477
Ukraine? If you want to fight
for yourself, we're going to give you

1316
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:33,117
everything you need to do it. You still
have to fight. We can't do that for you.

1317
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,597
And we're certainly not going to fight
for you if you're not willing to do it

1318
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:37,757
yourself. But we're going to give you
everything that you need. And we're

1319
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:39,517
going to build industrial capacity that

1320
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,797
can keep your artillery uh batteries

1321
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:47,277
fully stocked, that can keep rounds
in your rifles, that can keep jammers on

1322
01:14:47,360 --> 01:14:50,877
every belt and in every truck,
that can stop these Russian missiles from

1323
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:54,717
striking your capital. And I think we
need to be able to do that for Poland. I

1324
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,517
think that we need to be able to do that
for for, you know, everyone in the EU.

1325
01:14:57,600 --> 01:14:58,877
We need to be able to do this for Japan.

1326
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:02,397
So I I I I think we probably won't
be the world police. We want to be the

1327
01:15:02,480 --> 01:15:05,037
world gun store. And that means things
need to be well priced. They need to be

1328
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:08,477
in stock. They need to be widely
available. I prefer gun stores that

1329
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:12,717
don't have background checks. Uh so you
I guess the analogy here would be maybe

1330
01:15:12,800 --> 01:15:16,157
not a you maybe we should do
a background check but you know but but

1331
01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:20,557
but a light one. Uh I I think that
that's probably what the future of

1332
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:24,877
people with my views look like.
I I don't think if even if I believed we

1333
01:15:24,960 --> 01:15:27,917
should be the world police. I don't
think that's a winning position. And so

1334
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:31,597
as a realist I have to say well what's the
next best thing? It's be the world gun.

1335
01:15:31,680 --> 01:15:33,597
>> Okay. Two last questions.
>> And I think we can get Republicans

1336
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:37,437
there. Like I I I I think even the people
who think that the Ukrainians are

1337
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:41,677
Nazis and we should all be in bed with
Putin, I think they can generally get in

1338
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:46,797
bed with the idea of defensive weaponry
provided to our allies and mass in a way

1339
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:50,237
that also supercharges our economy. Like
this seems like a no-brainer to me. It

1340
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:52,557
always disappoints me when I run
into people who who don't like it.

1341
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:56,077
>> Two last questions.
During World War II, >> yeah,

1342
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:59,037
>> families would sit around their dinner
table talking about what was going on in

1343
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,437
the world. >> I wasn't around,
but I imagine that's true.

1344
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,437
During the Cold War,
people would talk about,

1345
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,637
>> "I'm only 33. Come on."
I'm not that old. Oh my god.

1346
01:16:06,720 --> 01:16:11,117
>> No, I'm saying right now there's no The
kind of conversation we're having right

1347
01:16:11,200 --> 01:16:13,117
now. The kind of thing you think about

1348
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:15,837
day in and day out, it is not on the

1349
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,797
radar of most Americans. There has not

1350
01:16:18,880 --> 01:16:21,997
been a story properly told about the

1351
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:25,117
threat from China and the kind of second

1352
01:16:25,200 --> 01:16:29,197
cold war, at least that's how Neil
Ferguson puts it, that we're in. Why?

1353
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:33,357
Why is this not like penetrating
the minds of the American public? What is

1354
01:16:33,440 --> 01:16:36,877
the story that could be told that puts
it front and center for people?

1355
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:38,237
>> Well, it's out of sight, out of mind.

1356
01:16:38,320 --> 01:16:42,077
And most people's lives are great.
Like the people in this room, we are the

1357
01:16:42,160 --> 01:16:46,157
weirdos. We are the ones that even have
deep opinions about any of these issues.

1358
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:49,837
Most people don't have deep opinions
on like I'm talking about like the average

1359
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,877
American. They are focused on the things
that are right in front of them. They're

1360
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,197
focused on taking care of their family.

1361
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,397
They're focused on their school
doing something stupid with homework

1362
01:16:58,480 --> 01:17:02,317
assignments. They're focused on their
health. They're focused on trying to uh

1363
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,997
afford gas. It is pretty
like you have to be an

1364
01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:10,077
extremely online type of person to even
understand many of the things that we're

1365
01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,757
talking about, much less have deep
opinions on them. And uh I think that's

1366
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:17,597
because we've done too good of a job
building a strong country and kind of a

1367
01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:21,597
strong foundation. We built this
incredible Pax Americana post World War

1368
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:24,477
II that was so strong that it could

1369
01:17:24,560 --> 01:17:28,877
survive even unmaintained by a body
populace that didn't even really

1370
01:17:28,960 --> 01:17:32,797
understand how it was erected, why it
was erected, and it still takes a long

1371
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,317
time to crumble. Even if you do nothing
to maintain it, and you [__] it up in

1372
01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:40,317
every way, it takes a long time for the
world to turn. I think that that is the

1373
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:43,437
problem. Whereas people around their
tables in World War II, you better bet

1374
01:17:43,520 --> 01:17:47,277
they had opinions on these things.
You did not need to be extremely online to

1375
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:51,037
be following the latest of what was going
on in Europe. You did not need to

1376
01:17:51,120 --> 01:17:55,357
be a weirdo protester activist to have
opinions about which countries were good

1377
01:17:55,440 --> 01:18:00,237
and which ones were were were not so good.
Uh and so I I I hope that it

1378
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:03,597
doesn't come to there needing to be
another shock to the system, but it

1379
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,717
seems like historically that's been the
case. Again, out of sight, out of mind.

1380
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:09,837
If things are good enough, if people
have their bread and they have their

1381
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:14,157
circuses and their lives are fine,
people probably aren't going to end

1382
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:17,357
mass. actually remember these things
and that like I said earlier that really

1383
01:18:17,440 --> 01:18:20,877
concerns me for military recruiting
the quality of people that you get in our

1384
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:25,197
military. Uh it is it
is it is it is definitely a

1385
01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:28,877
problem. You asked how do we weave
a story? I I I think that uh that's

1386
01:18:28,960 --> 01:18:33,357
probably that's probably more a story
for you, right? You know the you you uh

1387
01:18:33,440 --> 01:18:36,077
you you seem in a pretty good position
to weave stories that can educate people

1388
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:39,357
on these things. I mean I build cruise
missiles and then I and I and I post on

1389
01:18:39,440 --> 01:18:42,077
X um like that's kind of the extent of

1390
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:46,477
of of my influence. Everyone I talk
to either they agree with me or they super

1391
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:49,277
disagree with me. Those aren't the people
we need to reach. It's the people

1392
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:52,957
that you know for example c watch CBS
news. They're the ones who I think need

1393
01:18:53,040 --> 01:18:56,637
to be educated about the world as it is
the threats as they are and probably and

1394
01:18:56,720 --> 01:18:59,437
I'm not telling you how to do your job.

1395
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:03,917
>> But you are telling me to advocate
for you to get on Survivor.

1396
01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:08,317
>> Yes. But if it were
me I think that I would

1397
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:11,117
probably be able to rationally look out
at the world and say what are the issues

1398
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,077
that people need to be informed on? What
are things happening that people need to

1399
01:19:14,160 --> 01:19:18,237
know about? And I think probably what
China is doing with Taiwan is actually

1400
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:22,557
of much more consequence than much
of what CBS News is putting in front of

1401
01:19:22,640 --> 01:19:26,877
people as more important than >> No
comment. I want to ask you I want to

1402
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:31,357
ask you one last question which is kind
of where we began which is the chip on

1403
01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:35,357
your shoulder. >> Yes.
>> You said something amazing in this

1404
01:19:35,440 --> 01:19:37,837
interview with Jeremy Stern who talked

1405
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:42,637
to you about getting fired from Facebook
Meta, you know, whatever. And you said

1406
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:46,397
this when he was sort of asking you to
correct the record about the falling out

1407
01:19:46,480 --> 01:19:50,877
with Mark Zuckerberg. You said, "Right
now, I hold all the cards. Right now, I

1408
01:19:50,960 --> 01:19:54,397
gain nothing by correcting the record
of things that Facebook did wrong 8 years

1409
01:19:54,480 --> 01:19:58,477
ago. If that changes, then I've got that
in my hopper. If it's better for me to

1410
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:00,557
bury it, I will." And this is the part I

1411
01:20:00,640 --> 01:20:03,197
love. I'm maybe not the crusader for

1412
01:20:03,280 --> 01:20:06,077
truth that people imagine. I am a

1413
01:20:06,160 --> 01:20:10,797
crusader for vengeance. And if my
vengeance can best be served by covering

1414
01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:12,397
up the crimes of those who have wronged

1415
01:20:12,480 --> 01:20:16,157
me, then I'll probably do that. So thing

1416
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:20,637
I want to ask, are you do
you really think that you're

1417
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:25,197
a crusader for vengeance more than
a crusader for truth? And maybe secondly,

1418
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:29,517
and maybe this is a strange thing to ask
you, but have you forgiven the people

1419
01:20:29,600 --> 01:20:33,357
that wronged you that we started
this conversation talking about?

1420
01:20:33,440 --> 01:20:37,517
>> No. Um,

1421
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:41,357
but you'll notice in there I don't talk
about a spiritual growth of, you know,

1422
01:20:41,440 --> 01:20:45,437
acceptance and forgiveness like some
people do. I just say I will I will

1423
01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:50,317
cover it up. I will I I will literally
just let them get away with the crimes

1424
01:20:50,400 --> 01:20:55,677
that they committed if it means that I'm
more successful in my mission. And like

1425
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,637
Andre's teamed up with Meta. We're
working with them on army contract. I

1426
01:20:58,720 --> 01:21:01,597
said in another interview they said,
"Well, Palmer, they fired you. Why are

1427
01:21:01,680 --> 01:21:05,597
you working with them?" And I said,
"Look, an 8-year-old pissing contest is

1428
01:21:05,680 --> 01:21:09,357
less important than solving this problem
for the United States Army. And it would

1429
01:21:09,440 --> 01:21:12,397
be a real travesty if I let my personal

1430
01:21:12,480 --> 01:21:16,637
vendetta get in the way of the best
VR technology in the world, which for

1431
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,157
better for worse is at meta, much
of which I created, some of which they

1432
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:23,677
created after they fired me. And that
should be brought to bear on these

1433
01:21:23,760 --> 01:21:27,677
military problems." And so, you know,
I I don't have to forgive and I don't have

1434
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:32,877
to forget, but I can present a facade
as if I have. And that's actually pro you

1435
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:35,917
because you know well you know what you
you know what you left out in there I I

1436
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:39,117
think I think the line after
that in that >> you grit your teeth

1437
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:42,557
>> well and I I say I grit my teeth I grin
and bear it and I also pointed out that

1438
01:21:42,640 --> 01:21:45,197
I am a propagandist. I said I'm not a

1439
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:47,757
journalist. I have no obligation to take

1440
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:52,397
a neutral point of view and report all
sides equally. I can hold a position. I

1441
01:21:52,480 --> 01:21:56,397
can present only the facts that best
support my argument and I can leave it

1442
01:21:56,480 --> 01:22:00,957
at that and try to do better than me
and I and hopefully you can't. And that's

1443
01:22:01,040 --> 01:22:03,597
one of the freeing things about not
being a journalist, by the way. Um, you

1444
01:22:03,680 --> 01:22:05,917
know, I've been through journalism
school. I know exactly what you're

1445
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:07,917
supposed to do and I know how you can

1446
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,597
just take all the useful parts and then

1447
01:22:11,680 --> 01:22:15,357
it's like actually our internal
our entire internal media channel at

1448
01:22:15,440 --> 01:22:20,237
Anderrol is called uh is uh in our Slack
is called propaganda and it's like hey

1449
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:24,557
post all of the media stories here
that will help influence people to support

1450
01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:26,397
and be excited about what we're doing.

1451
01:22:26,480 --> 01:22:29,357
This is where you get material to help
recruit people. This is where you get

1452
01:22:29,440 --> 01:22:32,477
people your material to help you with
your sales efforts and you should just

1453
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,157
be really clear about it. I like not
you, sorry. I need to be clear about

1454
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:39,357
that. Um I what I don't want to do
is lie to people like I'm just telling it

1455
01:22:39,440 --> 01:22:43,117
how it is. I'm I'm just the guy straight
down the middle. I'm I'm the neutral

1456
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:46,877
point of view. I'm not. Take me with a
pound of salt. I am the propagandist for

1457
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:49,757
my way I want to see the world.
And I think that that that applies to what

1458
01:22:49,840 --> 01:22:53,437
you're talking about. Like people say,
Palmer, why don't you ever get into like

1459
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:56,877
how did it really go down? You know,
how did you really get fired? Who did it?

1460
01:22:56,960 --> 01:23:00,157
Who made the call?
And I know all of this and I have all

1461
01:23:00,240 --> 01:23:03,997
the documents. I've actually obtained
many of the internal documents in

1462
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,837
unrelated litigation between two other
parties and that I obtained it from

1463
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:11,757
their council. So I know

1464
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:13,757
>> not that you're
threatening or anything.

1465
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:16,637
>> I know the exact
sequence of events that

1466
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:19,037
led to my termination and I will tell

1467
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:24,077
you it's horrible and it should never
happen again. But at the same time, what

1468
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:27,357
good does it do at this point?
Like, isn't the the goal of politics to

1469
01:23:27,440 --> 01:23:31,837
persuade and to convince people to join
your side and to join your tent? As I

1470
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:35,677
said earlier, I'm on the I told you
so tour. People are all kissing my ass.

1471
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:40,797
They're all working with me. Is now the
time to go and say no. [__] you, buddy.

1472
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:42,637
No room in my tent. Get out of here.

1473
01:23:42,720 --> 01:23:44,397
I'll never work with you again.

1474
01:23:44,480 --> 01:23:50,397
Unfortunately, not.
It is the time for me to say it.

1475
01:23:50,480 --> 01:23:52,877
>> I'm trying to think of the right
analogy. It's like the moment where the

1476
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:56,237
anti-hero and the hero team up into
Superman. If you don't tie this back to

1477
01:23:56,320 --> 01:24:00,477
survivor in your closing question and how
this this mentality is going to help

1478
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:05,437
you survivor >> quite a few people >>
in Survivor the phrase that they use and

1479
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:08,317
and when people because there's a lot
of betrayal you know you're with these

1480
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,877
people you're voting each other
out you're forming alliances and you

1481
01:24:10,960 --> 01:24:14,477
backstab people you blindside them and one
of the thing and at the end everyone

1482
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:17,517
votes for you know the person who wins
and they'll say why do you betray me and

1483
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:21,357
the phrase they'll say is I was just
doing what's best for my game and people

1484
01:24:21,440 --> 01:24:26,077
will say okay yeah I respect that
because in in the survivor cultural

1485
01:24:26,160 --> 01:24:30,397
meta. I'm just doing what's best for
my game. I had to do it. I had to do it

1486
01:24:30,480 --> 01:24:33,517
because that what was that's what
was was best for my game. I didn't want to

1487
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:37,757
betray you, but I had to. And I'd say
tying it back to Survivor here, I am

1488
01:24:37,840 --> 01:24:41,437
doing what's best for my game. Me
throwing people under the bus for things

1489
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:47,880
that they did, mistakes that they
made 8 years ago is not currently

1490
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:52,077
is not currently what's best for my game.
So to all of you people who watch

1491
01:24:52,160 --> 01:24:56,317
Survivor, I'm going to do what's
best for my game and I am going to do

1492
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,677
whatever it takes to accomplish
my objective. And luckily my objective

1493
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:03,517
>> outlive out >> out it's
out out live. So it's outwit,

1494
01:25:03,600 --> 01:25:07,757
outplay, outlast. >> That's the surv.
Yeah. Thank you guys.

1495
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:09,277
>> I don't know where else we could end

1496
01:25:09,360 --> 01:25:13,037
other than that. Paul Maki,

1497
01:25:13,120 --> 01:25:17,000
thank you so much.