# Why GTA 5 is one of the greatest games ever | Dan Houser and Lex Fridman

*Lex Clips* · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owAg6cOJgUU

## Summary

In this short clip from Lex Fridman's interview with Dan Houser, Houser explains why the middle part of Grand Theft Auto V, where the three protagonists come together, was such an accomplishment. He discusses the technical and narrative challenge of a multi-protagonist game and describes Rockstar's culture of excellence and creative clarity. He also reflects on the intensity of finishing big projects and the emptiness that can follow.

## Key points

- Dan Houser lists the ending of Red Dead Redemption 1, all of Grand Theft Auto IV, and the middle part of Grand Theft Auto V among his proudest accomplishments.
- The three GTA V protagonists were designed around ego, id, and a drive to get ahead, playing off each other like a representation of the super-ego.
- Moving between multiple protagonists was a huge technical challenge that Houser says people didn't realize was so hard.
- Rockstar's culture was one of excellence and creative clarity, with clear tone and cohesion deciding which features fit.
- By 2002, features were no longer limited by technology; the challenge was making a game cohesive.
- Houser says working that hard means no good work/life balance, but it isn't constant, and finishing a project is intensely rewarding though it can feel empty afterwards.
- Lex Fridman compares the post-project emptiness to Olympic gold medal winners who face depression after winning.

## Notes

### Grand Theft Auto V's three protagonists
- Dan Houser is proud of the middle part of GTA V, when Michael, Franklin, and Trevor come together.
- Lex Fridman compares the trio to Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov, using protagonists to explore the spectrum of human nature.
- Houser says the characters were built so one is driven by ego, one by id, and one by trying to get ahead — a representation of the super-ego — and their relationship becomes a character in itself.
- The characters were meant to feel like real characters, not just philosophical or psychological avatars.

### The technical challenge
- After the single-protagonist operatic journey of GTA IV, the challenge was making a multi-protagonist game.
- Switching between characters was technically very hard; the team sat holding their aching heads wondering why they'd decided to do it.
- Houser believes people didn't realize how hard it was, and the team did an amazing job.

### Rockstar's culture of excellence
- Houser describes himself as "a worker amongst workers" in a culture of excellence and creative clarity.
- From GTA III onward, the team was driven to innovate with narrative, art direction, and every piece of the game within the crime-drama format.
- With Vice City and beyond, they used time and money to put impressive things on screen and push the medium of fake worlds further.
- By 2002, any feature could technically be put in a game; the real challenge was cohesion — deciding which features fit the tone.

### The grind and its aftermath
- Navid Khansari said Sam and Dan rolled up their sleeves and never left the team holding the bag.
- Houser says finishing a game is tough but intensely rewarding, though it can feel empty afterwards — like any big undertaking.
- Working that hard means no good work/life balance, but it isn't constant.
- Lex Fridman compares this to Olympic gold medal winners who face depression after winning, noting you need the lows to experience the highs.

## Transcript

[00:02] - And of course, Michael's from Grand Theft Auto V. And he's one of three protagonists with also Franklin and Trevor. And you said that of the things you're proud of creating and you think was a great accomplishment, it was Red Dead Redemption 2, the ending of Red Dead Redemption 1, all of Grand Theft Auto IV, and the middle part of Grand Theft Auto V when the three characters come together. Can you speak to the Grand Theft Auto V? Is there some degree... I don't know if you're a Dostoevsky guy, but... - A little bit. - Is there some aspect of the three protagonists, sort of, you know, Brothers Karamazov, ...Alyosha, Dmitry, and Ivan, sort of, using the protagonists to explore the spectrum of human nature and...

[00:47] - Yes, sure. - ...just the tension between them that allows you the, the, the three of them become a character in themselves. - Their relationship. - Their relationship. - is more... Yeah, it was, it was, I think one of the reasons that, that the team did such... That Grand Theft Auto is still so popular is we always tried as a group to really innovate from game to game within the confines of what it was. It was a crime, it was a crime drama, you know, began as a crime, a crime sim in GTA 1 about stealing, you know, 2D top-down cars. And we always tried to innovate with the narrative and innovate with the art direction, innovate with every piece of the game. And I think having done, you know, GTA IV, which

[01:27] was this kind of operatic journey for this big lead character, and then these two extra stories that came afterwards. So the challenge, the, the, the challenge was, can we combine... Can we make a video game which tends to be very much focused on one protagonist, but have multi-protagonists? And the technical challenge of moving from character to character. The team did such an amazing job that I don't think people realized how hard it was. But we would sit there just sort of holding our heads 'cause they hurt so much around like, what happens if you do this, then do that? It's just, this is so hard. Why have we, why have we decided to do this? It's horrible. And then it all came together. But I think the idea was to develop

[02:11] three characters who do feel like characters. They don't just feel like philosophical, you know, psychological avatars. But where one is really, really driven by ego, one is really driven by id, and one is really driven by trying to get ahead. So some kind of representation of the super-ego and see how that feels when they all play off against each other. - One of the most upvoted questions on Reddit about GTA V, From a fan, "GTA V is my favorite game ever made. I spent over 1,000 hours in the world of GTA V and GTA Online. GTA IV is a hard second or third. It never ceases to impress me. When you lead a team of over 1,000 people to make a masterpiece like GTA V or Red Dead Redemption 2, how do you ensure that the bar of perfection is always

[02:56] met? How's that even possible? We know the answer isn't money, because there's other studios with a lot of money, and they are two decades behind Rockstar." So what does it take to create these worlds, to create these incredibly compelling games and stories? - I think the cult- I mean, certainly when I was at Rockstar, I was a worker amongst workers. You know, the culture was one of excellence and tried to provide creative clarity. And people would just, you know... And also an ambition to make... I think we were like... We thought GTA III could be really popular. Really popular to us meant, quite honestly, it's gonna sell two or three million copies. And we thought we were making something pretty innovative. I mean, we knew we were

[03:40] making something innovative, but we didn't know if people would understand how innovative it was. And then when we got the chance to make Vice City, and to try and repeat it, I think every time from then on the team was very driven to make something better. And to use, this was long before we had lots of resources, to use time and whatever money we had to always put impressive stuff on the screen, always think about what we can do to push the medium of video games and the sort of medium of building fake worlds further. And that was always... You know, there was a, it was, you know, both clarity of, "Here's what we're trying to do. Here's what the tone of the game is going to be. Here's how features will fit into that, and why these features would

[04:23] work and these features wouldn't work." Because fundamentally by 2002, you could put pretty much any feature into a game you wanted. It wasn't a question, it wasn't a technical limitation. It was just making it cohesive. And then it was also just everyone committing to a culture of excellence. - Navid Khansari, an award-winning director and virtual reality game maker, who worked with you on a number of Grand Theft Auto games, spoke highly about his time working with you. Quote, "We always worked ourselves to the bone, but it wasn't coming from the top down. Sam and Dan always rolled up their sleeves, and they were always there. They never left us holding the bag. We all thought we were making badass shit,

[05:03] so it didn't matter how hard we worked." So I'm sure there were some tough grinds. - I think finishing it is certainly... It's tough, but it also is intensely rewarding. And you get something done, and you've made something. And that feeling is, as you say, really, really incredible. I mean, it can sometimes feel a bit empty as well because it's... when you're finished, you're like, "Then my life's got nothing to it," and then you have to... You know, but that's the same with any big undertaking that you take. I don't think there are... You know, when you're working that hard, you do not have a good work/life balance. But the truth is, you're not working that hard all of the time. So you just have to manage it slightly differently.

[05:39] - Man, that's such such a heavy thing about the human experience. I've talked to Olympic gold medal winners, and many of them face real depression after they win the gold medal. because they've been pursuing a thing that they deeply care about. This has been everything, and they're so truly happy to do it, and then it's like, "What else is there in life?" What, compared to this, what else is there? So that's the ups and downs of life. You need the darkness and you need the lows to really experience the highs. Let me ask you