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Speaking of friction, let's talk about

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your refusal to allow the military to

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remove safety guardrails from Claude.
I don't want to get into the extensive

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details and back and forth here because

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other journalists are covering this on
a daily basis. But what was the crux of

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that decision? >> Yeah,
so I would I would say on DOD or

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DOW, you know, to be honest, we actually
had worked with them, right? So, you

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know, we we had provided our models
and you know, I'm I I'm actually believer

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and Danielle is a believer that we we
do need to defend our country, but you

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know, we we felt it's not worth
defending the country if we do things

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that go against
the values of this country.

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And there were two use cases that we
were uncomfortable with that we felt

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went against the values of this country.

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And and that was fully autonomous
weapons. So, you can imagine like a

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drone army that you know, one person has
their finger on the button and you don't

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have human soldiers. You have a you

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know, you have a drone army and you have

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AI powering this. And then and then uh
domestic mass surveillance, which is,

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you know, spying you know, using
the power of the government to spy on

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Americans. And and we thought those were

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pretty reasonable things not to allow.

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Uh and you know, unfortunately,

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the Pentagon

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uh didn't feel that way. And and so we
just we just couldn't agree to that. All

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the other companies have
agreed to that now, but I

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you know, I I we we all met
as co-founders. We said, you know, holy

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this could be really bad for the company,
but you know, we can't do this, right?

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>> agreed. >> Everyone
ever we we just we had you

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know, we had a meeting around a table
like this and you know, we just said

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>> Was that a dark night of the soul
kind of moment? What what what what was

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everybody willing to stick to those
principles or did some people have to be

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convinced or did you know going
in that this is this is the end of

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>> The co-founders believed this
unanimously. Like there there was a

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sense of like of like,
you know, well, you know,

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all right. I wish they hadn't done this,
but if they're going to do it, bring it

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on. >> Weren't you scared
of what would happen to you?

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>> Yes. >> [laughter] >> Yes. >> Were
you scared of what would happen to you?

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>> Yes. I mean, I think I think the thing
that It was It was a hard time. I mean,

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I don't think we want to sugarcoat that.

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It was a stressful time at the company,
but I think a thing that Dario

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>> it could be the end of the company?

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>> I think it crossed our minds.
Yeah. I think um

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I think Dario and I
and the co-founders though,

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the thing that we all had in common
was we just felt like this was the right

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thing to do. >> You were
willing for it to be the end of

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the company to stand
up to your principles.

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>> I think the reason
we founded Anthropic was

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our commitment to our values and the

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ethics that we chose to work with.

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>> And it felt like in the process
of sacrificing those values, we wouldn't

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have been the company that we
had started, if that makes sense.

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>> It It It you know,
the the way it happened

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>> What did you think would be the So I'm
sure if you're sitting around the table,

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you're looking at the best-case scenario
and the worst-case scenario. And in that

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moment, it doesn't look like there
is a best-case scenario. So what was the

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worst-case scenario?
>> At various times, they had made claims

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that they could stop other companies
from doing business with us, right? Not

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just stop us from working with the
government or being part of other

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companies' contracts with the government,
but that they could stop

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other companies from doing
business with us entirely.

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>> Period. So you're not >> Period.
Not only you're not doing

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business with the government, you're not
doing business with anybody Anybody else

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that does business with you.
>> Yeah, or you can't do business with

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anyone that does business with the
government in any way, which ends up

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being everyone or everybody, right?
Um I think the attitude we had was

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look, this is really screwed up.

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Everyone knows this is wrong. Lots
of people are going to be on our side.

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We think this is going to work out okay,
but man, are we not sure. You know,

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there were moments there where it
was like, oh man, you know, are are we

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wrong? Is this going to be
the end of the company? Like

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>> What were you thinking, Daniela?

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>> You know, I just keep
coming back to the co-founders

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felt like it was just the right thing to

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do. I think Anthropic's view has always
been that we are about policy and not

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politics. >> Yeah.
>> And Anthropic has leaned in, I think,

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very early before we even had a product
to the fact that, you know, we think

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that the role of government in the
development and thoughtful regulation of

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artificial intelligence is going
to be incredibly important. I think AI

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companies will have to work with
the federal government, with state

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governments, internationally, with with
NGOs. And I think our view was always,

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look, this is really about the substance.
This is not a political

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disagreement. This is a policy

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disagreement. And I think in some ways
that in it's not to say it was easy, but

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I think it made our decision easier
because we felt strongly, look, this is

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the right thing to do. These are the right
red lines. To Dario's point, we've

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we were actually the first AI company
to work closely with national security

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because we felt that that was in line
and in keeping with our values, except

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in these two areas that we felt
could have the potential to compromise

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democratic values. >> It's so interesting

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because most people don't get a decision

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at that scale that they have to make

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that they have to rely on their

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principles and their values. Um and and

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you're literally risking
a multi-multi billion-dollar company.

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But it all goes back to how you were

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raised and what how those principles

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were formed in you before you
had a big decision like that.

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>> know, what we talked about before we
ever started the company, what's it you

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know, would our past selves be proud
of ourselves if we if we gave in here, if

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we compromised? Like I I you know, I I
I that that made the decision very clear,

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right? >> And I I will
say, I mean, it wasn't

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nearly as, you know, publicly covered,

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but I think Anthropic has had, you know,
smaller decisions along the way that

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felt like they they laddered up to this.

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I mean, >> Yeah. >> now it
looks so obvious in retrospect.

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>> that because because to get to a big
decision like this in a moment like that

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where you have everyone around the table
and have to it means the that that life

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the life force is the way the universe
works is that you would have had other

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decisions other decisions other
decisions that laddered to that moment.

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>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> I think
there are probably three I can

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think of off the top of my head.

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>> ask you that. >> Dario
might have others as well, but I

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think, you know, one which, you know,

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now feels sort of very obvious, but was

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a bigger discussion at the time was the no
ads decision. So, as you can imagine,

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I think for the co-founders, for me and
Dario, it was not controversial at all.

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We said, "Look, we think the incentive
the incentives are wrong. AI is

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different. People have very private
conversations with these AI models.

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People upload their health information.

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They ask questions about their children.

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They ask >> Certainly finances.

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>> Finances. They talk about, you know,
>> Medical information. Medical finances,

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yeah. >> Challenges they
might be having with an

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important person in their life.
It's I think we

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want to treat our customers' data with
the utmost privacy and respect. And so,

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for the co-founders, it was never
a question. We said, "Look, we don't want

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to do ads, but there were quiet forces
that, you know, within the company or

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investors who were like, "Hey, this is
a great source of revenue. This is how

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Google and and Facebook and basically
every company that has a big user base,

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you know, that's just how it's done.

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That's how you make money." And we just
said, "Like, sorry, that's just not how

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we're going to do things.
We'll find another way."

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>> That was That was one
of the big ones, okay.

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>> Yes, that was that
was one of the big ones.

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>> You have one? >> I can think
of a couple. One is, uh, you

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know, there was this time,
I think, in 2025,

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um, you know, probably the whole year of

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2025, the sentiment in tech was, "Let's

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go ahead, right? Let's Let's go ahead
with the technology like, you know,

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worrying about risks, you know, they're
all kind of politicized language about

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why it's bad to slow down and be

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careful. And so, there was a moment in

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the middle of 2025

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where, you know, there was a bill being
considered in Congress that would have

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banned all regulation of AI by states
and wouldn't have put in any federal

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regulation of AI either. So,
basically it would have banned

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all regulation of the technology.

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>> I remember hearing about this.

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>> And And we, you know, we were trying
to decide what to do. We definitely didn't

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support it, but the question was, do we
just sit there and say nothing? Or do we

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speak out against it? And all kinds
of people said to us, "No, it'll be

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terrible. You'll break all your
political relationships. All the other

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companies will hate you if you speak
out against it." Um and actually some of

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that did happen when we
we spoke out against it. Um

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uh but, you know, we decided that this
was an area that we had to speak up,

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that was central to the values of the
company. So, I wrote an op-ed in The New

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York Times saying this is a bad idea. We
should You know, that's about as loud as

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you can be. And that bill got
voted down in the Senate 99 to 1.

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>> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> So,
you know, we we were clearly on the

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right side.
Clearly on the right side here.