WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.837 I cause a lot of antagonism between us and the other firms in those days. 00:00:03.920 --> 00:00:07.277 >> Your filter is like you're going to get the deal or I'm going to get the deal. 00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.717 You die or I die. >> And they're not exactly shrinking ballots themselves. 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:14.237 >> They hated that cover story. Look at [music] him on the cover of the 00:00:14.320 --> 00:00:16.557 magazine. That's not supposed to be him. 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:18.317 Not supposed to be the entrepreneur. 00:00:18.400 --> 00:00:23.677 What the hell? D. I mean, they just like we didn't have any entrepreneurs at the 00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:27.997 time. >> VC was like a big secret. And then 00:00:28.080 --> 00:00:31.517 actually building companies was a big secret. And so just kind of talking 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:33.437 about it was a big differentiator. 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:34.957 >> We don't have products. 00:00:35.040 --> 00:00:36.397 >> Yeah. And we we have products. 00:00:36.480 --> 00:00:40.680 >> We have people and ideas. That's it. 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.557 >> All right. Welcome to the A16C. What are 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:48.397 we on? The Mark and Ben show. Welcome to 00:00:48.480 --> 00:00:51.357 the Mark and Ben show. Um today we've 00:00:51.440 --> 00:00:54.077 got Margaret Wenmachers, the legendary 00:00:54.160 --> 00:00:57.197 >> Oh jeez. uh head of marketing for A16Z 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.757 for for the last 16 years. Uh and she is 00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:06.157 going to uh tell us the story of all that. You've heard snippets of it from 00:01:06.240 --> 00:01:09.597 me and Mark over the years, but now we're going to hear the real thing from 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:11.437 the real person. Market, welcome. 00:01:11.520 --> 00:01:12.957 >> Thank you so much for having me, guys. 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:17.437 I'm thrilled to be here. But between the legendary and the 15 or 16, I feel kind 00:01:17.520 --> 00:01:21.917 of ancient. [laughter] >> Wise wise. 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.477 No, it's getting us all. It's very It's very rough. 00:01:24.560 --> 00:01:26.237 >> I know. It just that way. 00:01:26.320 --> 00:01:29.357 >> Um, so maybe we can start with just like 00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:31.917 uh when we met maybe we I'd love to hear 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:33.997 it from your perspective. Where were we 00:01:34.080 --> 00:01:36.957 at? Hobies or I think it was the stats. 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.837 The crearyy. The crearyy. The crearyy. 00:01:39.920 --> 00:01:41.757 >> At that point was your office. 00:01:41.840 --> 00:01:46.557 >> Yeah. >> And um so I >> I forgot. Yeah. The the firm started at 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:51.517 the crearyy. That's right. >> Right. Exactly. So I was um some a 00:01:51.600 --> 00:01:55.277 certain someone who shall go nameless tried to hire outcast 00:01:55.360 --> 00:01:59.917 >> and um Facebook invoked a conflict of interest. You know exactly who that is, 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:03.677 right? And so that certain someone called Mark and like just call Mark 00:02:03.760 --> 00:02:06.797 Zuckerberg and I think you have better things to do than like pull a favor for 00:02:06.880 --> 00:02:11.197 Mark Zuckerberg to go like why don't you like just whatever. Anyhow, but I think 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.437 you asked for my email address and so 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.237 that's how we were introduced. Ah, 00:02:16.320 --> 00:02:20.637 >> and then I was told to go to the crearyy. The waiter at the crearyy, he's 00:02:20.720 --> 00:02:24.637 like, "Go be it here. They're meeting with some democratic functionaries or 00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:28.397 something like that." [laughter] >> So I wait there with my little 00:02:28.480 --> 00:02:31.357 capabilities presentation and I I had 00:02:31.440 --> 00:02:35.437 met you like years before, but like had no recollection. I had not met you. I'd 00:02:35.520 --> 00:02:38.477 heard about you a little bit. >> So I go there with my capabilities 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:43.117 presentation. I sit down. The the Democrats left the booth and I sit down. 00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:47.677 You basically were just looking straight ahead. You You were just like I don't 00:02:47.760 --> 00:02:50.317 know what you were thinking about, but it was not that big 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.877 >> probably. How we get the fur we raised 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:57.597 the money >> and then Mark grabs the like you grab 00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:00.877 the capabilities position which was generic because I had no idea why I was 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:03.357 there. Right. >> So, and you go like okay so how do you 00:03:03.440 --> 00:03:06.077 pick the clients and here are the clients and why those clients and not 00:03:06.160 --> 00:03:09.597 these clients and like like teams whatever like detailed questions. So, I 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:14.077 got this little grilling and then you both said thank you and I left and I 00:03:14.160 --> 00:03:17.837 concluded that it was probably because you were angel investing at the time and 00:03:17.920 --> 00:03:21.677 you had just left HP. I was like >> maybe they just want to have somebody 00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:24.317 they can recommend to their angel portfolio or whatever. 00:03:24.400 --> 00:03:27.357 >> Yeah. Right. Right. >> And then a few months later 00:03:27.440 --> 00:03:31.437 >> we met at the Rosewood I think. No, it was not the Was it the Rosewood? 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:33.997 >> We were there a lot. So anyhow, and then 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:37.357 you guys, okay, so we're going to start this firm 00:03:37.440 --> 00:03:41.037 >> and uh top secret blah blah blah. I'm going to start this firm and it's going 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:45.837 to be the two of us, $300 million. And this was at a certain time where money 00:03:45.920 --> 00:03:49.757 was kind of tight. [laughter] >> 2009 to the end the end of the world, 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:51.197 >> right? There was no liquidity. 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:52.397 >> The last end of the world. Yeah. 00:03:52.480 --> 00:03:56.317 >> And I looked a little quizzical and I said like, you know, it's not a great 00:03:56.400 --> 00:03:58.957 time. And you said, Mark said, let's 00:03:59.040 --> 00:04:01.517 assume success, shall we? And then you 00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:04.157 had already had the the idea of like 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:06.957 well we wanted to say something but we 00:04:07.040 --> 00:04:09.757 we couldn't be out talking to press or 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:11.837 be on Twitter at the time or whatever 00:04:11.920 --> 00:04:14.797 else and raise money be viewed as 00:04:14.880 --> 00:04:19.037 soliciting money. Right. So >> Mark then went um he had a standing 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:23.037 invitation I think on Charlie Rose and you went on Charlie Rose and you had all 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:26.397 a nice very nice chat and at the very end he was like well by the way we're 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:31.277 going to start a VC firm [laughter] >> and then we all went quiet. So that was 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:33.997 that that's my recollection. I don't know what you guys thought. I remember 00:04:34.080 --> 00:04:36.077 thinking, yeah, like I I I was just so 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.397 distracted with 00:04:38.480 --> 00:04:41.837 how like how do we raise money? Like we 00:04:41.920 --> 00:04:45.677 had never met uh LPS till till then. And 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:49.357 so and then we every VC that we had been 00:04:49.440 --> 00:04:51.357 meeting with and we at the same time we 00:04:51.440 --> 00:04:53.677 were meeting with lots and lots of VCs 00:04:53.760 --> 00:04:57.037 trying to understand the industry and um 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:00.797 they all said that's a dumbass idea for 00:05:00.880 --> 00:05:03.997 a fund. you should definitely not do it. 00:05:04.080 --> 00:05:06.877 Uh >> they just wanted to give you jobs, I'm assuming. 00:05:06.960 --> 00:05:10.637 >> Uh yeah. Well, they they were like, well, you know, well, one of them said 00:05:10.720 --> 00:05:14.797 that um we should just do like we'd never raise it from the LP, so we should 00:05:14.880 --> 00:05:19.197 just raise the money from VCs and give the VCs who invested half the carry. 00:05:19.280 --> 00:05:23.517 That was >> interesting plan. >> Yeah, that was one strategy. And then 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.917 the the the whole platform thing that 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.917 was that was really dumb because it had 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:30.957 been tried before and proven like like 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:33.677 proven like you know QED 00:05:33.760 --> 00:05:38.717 uh that it could never work >> actually who who tried it for real. 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:41.997 >> I don't know. So I think the main thing that they were thinking about was the 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:45.197 incubators. >> Oh yeah. So I think it was the Bill It 00:05:45.280 --> 00:05:48.077 was the late 90s. Exactly. And and you know actually in retrospect like it's 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:51.997 actually very very like so there's this entrepreneur Bill Gross Idea Lab. 00:05:52.080 --> 00:05:53.597 >> Yeah. Yeah, which >> incubator created I think a lot of 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:55.837 companies. I mean among the companies you created turned out to be the company 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:59.037 that created basically the Google search model [snorts] 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:01.517 >> as well as like a bunch of other like super interesting companies. So I think 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.237 those those actually worked the good ones worked better than people remember. 00:06:04.320 --> 00:06:07.437 But um >> yeah they they specifically and the 00:06:07.520 --> 00:06:11.997 incubators in those days went for like a 50% equity split. Um right as contrasted 00:06:12.080 --> 00:06:13.997 a like combinator which is famously like 00:06:14.080 --> 00:06:19.037 7%. Um and so to justify the 50% they did like they did they provided your 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:22.397 office space and your accounting services and your legal services and so 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.437 Right. Exactly. >> And it just and in our view you know we 00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:28.077 had just we we had been entrepreneurs and so we just had a very different 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:31.037 perspective on what we actually needed from our venture firms and so we we just 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.277 had a very different view than the incubators had 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.557 >> and then the existing VCs just yeah for whatever reason couldn't put themselves 00:06:36.640 --> 00:06:38.877 in that in that I think because they hadn't been entrepreneurs. 00:06:38.960 --> 00:06:42.557 >> They hadn't been customers of the VC product. So they weren't looking at it 00:06:42.640 --> 00:06:46.717 through that lens. they were looking at it, you know, from the provider and you 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:50.877 know that by the way those businesses were all great businesses. So, you know, 00:06:50.960 --> 00:06:53.037 they they sort of earned the right to be 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:54.717 arrogant in that sense. 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:58.397 >> Yeah. And I remember the Bill Gross when 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:02.877 he was talking and I met him and it was all like, okay, I have all these ideas. 00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:06.237 >> Well, it was also that there was that, right? hire an entrepreneur and you guys 00:07:06.320 --> 00:07:09.357 had come from a completely different lens where you had the ideas and 00:07:09.440 --> 00:07:13.197 believed that you know Larry Ellis and those people had the ideas not the 00:07:13.280 --> 00:07:17.197 >> financial machinery right >> and then obviously you had absorbed the 00:07:17.280 --> 00:07:21.837 oitz um playbook right so it's a very different version of a platform 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:25.917 >> from an from a v from an incubator >> yeah and as as you know I mean that's so 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:28.477 basically what we did when we had to find a historical model for what we're 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.077 doing it turned out to be turned out to be CA because that that just mapped much 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.837 more um to what we had in mind there hadn't been precedent like that applied 00:07:35.920 --> 00:07:40.077 in the valley. >> Yeah. And at that time uh it was before 00:07:40.160 --> 00:07:42.557 Ozitz's book came out. So that whole 00:07:42.640 --> 00:07:47.357 strategy was basically a secret. Nobody knew it. Like you had to know oitz to 00:07:47.440 --> 00:07:52.077 know it. >> Um and oitz was very secretive. 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:54.877 >> Yes. >> Uh you know we we had like several 00:07:54.960 --> 00:07:58.317 conversations before we could actually get it out of him even though he was out 00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:00.317 of CIA for many years. you know, it was 00:08:00.400 --> 00:08:05.997 it was like a very um secret formula he had come up with and it it you know it 00:08:06.080 --> 00:08:08.557 was an amazing thing >> but it ended up being a genius thing to 00:08:08.640 --> 00:08:10.317 have him on your board like it was a 00:08:10.400 --> 00:08:13.757 very unorthodox pick like looking in 00:08:13.840 --> 00:08:18.317 from the outside and it led to all all kinds of useful connections and useful 00:08:18.400 --> 00:08:21.997 thinking right >> yeah true >> yeah it was uh it was controversial at 00:08:22.080 --> 00:08:23.837 the time even amongst our own board I 00:08:23.920 --> 00:08:29.037 won't name names but uh yeah it was uh it it was different to have them we 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:30.957 actually met him through Ron Conway, right? 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.357 >> Years ago. >> Yeah. >> The human router of all time. 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:37.517 >> The human router. Yeah. Great. That was a great intro from Ron. 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.677 >> And uh Yeah. What a what an interesting friendship that's been. 00:08:41.760 --> 00:08:43.837 >> So So the next thing that happened. So 00:08:43.920 --> 00:08:47.677 then we're going to raise the money and 00:08:47.760 --> 00:08:50.077 we decide that we're going to talk to 00:08:50.160 --> 00:08:52.557 the press. Um which was very different 00:08:52.640 --> 00:08:55.037 for VCs to actually be aggressive about 00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:57.837 that. Usually the VCs would want to talk 00:08:57.920 --> 00:09:02.077 to the press and some of them had been clients at the IPO time, right? 00:09:02.160 --> 00:09:04.797 >> So they wanted to basically have no risk, 00:09:04.880 --> 00:09:07.757 >> but then when the company goes public, it's like, "Hey, I did that." Right. So 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:10.957 it was it was kind of we did it backwards, if you will. 00:09:11.040 --> 00:09:13.757 >> Yeah. You're right. With with nothing [laughter] 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.837 >> nothing in hand. We we just went for it. 00:09:15.920 --> 00:09:19.517 So as soon as >> we raised the fund, was it Yeah. We must 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:22.797 have had to raise the fund to do the press tour. Yep. Because the gun 00:09:22.880 --> 00:09:25.997 jumping. Yeah. And so 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.477 how did you think about it? I guess you know it was very kind of magical from 00:09:30.560 --> 00:09:34.477 our point of view other than you know when Wyatt slammed the door in my face. 00:09:34.560 --> 00:09:39.117 But [laughter] [gasps] >> well that was a useful signal. We we 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.717 realized oh we have to we have to even the plague field here a little bit. 00:09:42.800 --> 00:09:44.477 >> Yeah that was a little bit of a problem. 00:09:44.560 --> 00:09:47.517 So tell us tell us about that. Yeah, 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.317 >> the way I used to think about this when 00:09:50.400 --> 00:09:52.237 this was all working so magically is 00:09:52.320 --> 00:09:54.877 that okay so if you read any article and 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:57.757 you just dissect the headline 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:00.717 the paragraphs like how it unfolds and 00:10:00.800 --> 00:10:05.197 then so you take a client like you guys or or a product company you go okay how 00:10:05.280 --> 00:10:09.517 do I fill that how do I write that story from a reporter's point of view and like 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.917 do you actually have it right and so if 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:15.277 the story is like oh $300 million and 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:19.037 two people who have never actually done this before. That's not a great story. 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:21.277 But we did have the column interest to 00:10:21.360 --> 00:10:23.917 fill, if you will, because you had the 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.797 idea for the platform, right? You you 00:10:26.880 --> 00:10:31.197 had you had been proven successful entrepreneurs. You had credibility with 00:10:31.280 --> 00:10:35.197 the core audience, right? And taking a step back, the thing that we all decided 00:10:35.280 --> 00:10:39.357 is like we're just going to >> aim all of our communications at the 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:42.557 entrepreneurs, at the at the entrepreneurs versus the LPS because we 00:10:42.640 --> 00:10:45.837 have their numbers. We we know how to call them. and you guys got great 00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:48.797 introductions to people, but like it all needs to be very entrepreneur friendly. 00:10:48.880 --> 00:10:50.477 And so we sort of set out like we have 00:10:50.560 --> 00:10:53.197 this platform and it's all in service of 00:10:53.280 --> 00:10:56.397 the entrepreneur who is the genius if if 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:01.197 the and then hopefully the idea works right and then how do can how can we add 00:11:01.280 --> 00:11:05.597 value and that was different enough to me having met like most of all the other 00:11:05.680 --> 00:11:06.637 VCs 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:09.837 >> and then you know the tall guy over here 00:11:09.920 --> 00:11:12.797 had co-created the browser so that was 00:11:12.880 --> 00:11:15.517 not a VC credential but it was an 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:17.517 incredible entrepreneur credential right 00:11:17.600 --> 00:11:21.777 like so you how and then and then you 00:11:21.860 --> 00:11:25.517 [snorts] did the the turnaround like the save of all time. I mean, I'm not so 00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:29.357 good with sports analogies, but there's there's got to be 17 in there, right? 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:31.117 Like having turned that around and sold 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:34.717 it to HP and for like money money 00:11:34.800 --> 00:11:36.637 >> was just spectacular. So, I think the 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:39.917 the two people who were behind it were 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.917 very entrepreneur friendly. They had really good credentials both on the tech 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:48.557 side and a category creation side and on the sort of like how does one execute 00:11:48.640 --> 00:11:52.797 one of those companies and then you had the money and you had the money at a 00:11:52.880 --> 00:11:55.277 time when there was no money. Yeah. 00:11:55.360 --> 00:11:58.237 >> Right. Like there was nobody really raising and like the other people they 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:00.877 could just sit and wait right until times got better. 00:12:00.960 --> 00:12:04.717 >> Yeah. >> And then I think >> if I remember correctly who had done it 00:12:04.800 --> 00:12:09.677 in three months which at the time seemed very spectacular because there was no 00:12:09.760 --> 00:12:11.837 money. So I could then pitch [clears throat] and it's like, okay, 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:15.997 like it's those two guys and it did in 3 months and have you read the news and 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:19.277 then they have all these ideas. Well, actually, one of the funny things that 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:23.917 happened while we were raising money that uh upset Mark upset me because I 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.997 just thought it was weird. But we went 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:32.397 to see an LP who who we knew. And the LP 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:35.437 walks into the meeting, you know, and here we are like, you know, and it 00:12:35.520 --> 00:12:38.637 really kind of brought us back to raising money in general, which is a 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.797 good kind of thing to go through if you're going to be uh investing in 00:12:42.880 --> 00:12:46.477 companies because you need to know what that feels like. So, you know, we're 00:12:46.560 --> 00:12:49.917 Yeah, we we're [snorts] like practicing the pitch where he got it all lined up. 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:53.357 We're like, "Okay, this is a big meeting. It's a it's a big LP." And we 00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.917 go in and the guy comes in and he goes, 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.357 "Oh, yeah. You know, yeah, this I I I I 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.077 I uh you know, I hear what you guys are 00:13:02.160 --> 00:13:06.717 doing. I think, you know, at best you could raise it in 18 months, but it'll 00:13:06.800 --> 00:13:11.167 be very hard. But I got to go. I'm going to go talk to some exNFL players." 00:13:11.250 --> 00:13:15.037 [laughter] quote, "I have to go over to Stanford. I 00:13:15.120 --> 00:13:17.437 have to talk to a room full of NFL players and how to manage their money 00:13:17.520 --> 00:13:19.757 and then now that they're now that their NFL careers are over." 00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:21.757 >> Yeah. >> Like that was the that was the thing 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.037 that was more important than talking to us, which was a very um Yeah, that was a 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:28.847 level setting experience. >> Yeah. We were like >> that was extremely motivating. 00:13:28.930 --> 00:13:32.317 [laughter] >> Yeah. >> As you can tell, 00:13:32.400 --> 00:13:36.157 >> it was Mark was like super pissed [laughter] 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:40.797 and I just remember going, "Wow, like that's so disrespectful." It's just like 00:13:40.880 --> 00:13:43.357 so crazy that that that he would do that. 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:48.157 >> I just made a little angel investment and like this um entrepreneur is trying 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.917 to raise money and like literally she's 00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:52.877 been told by an investor. I think people 00:13:52.960 --> 00:13:55.597 like you just basically shouldn't exist. 00:13:55.680 --> 00:13:59.277 >> Guess how motivated she is. 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.237 >> Show that >> This is the thing. The nuclear fire that 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.877 you get on the other side of that is Yes. Like I can't believe people 00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:08.797 actually say that out loud and they're not like they're 95 and they don't have 00:14:08.880 --> 00:14:11.757 a filter anymore. Like they're just >> we went I mean there was all these 00:14:11.840 --> 00:14:14.237 stories from this time but I mean there have been obviously many great VCs 00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:17.197 before us but there we I mean we went out and we basically met all the all the 00:14:17.280 --> 00:14:20.477 top VCs you know kind of because one of them knew we were doing it 00:14:20.560 --> 00:14:24.397 >> and [snorts] uh and you know a different guy one of the VCs at the time I 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:27.597 remember him saying uh he's like oh yeah venture is a great business. Venture is 00:14:27.680 --> 00:14:31.077 like running it's like it's like going to a sushi sushi boat restaurant. 00:14:31.160 --> 00:14:33.277 [laughter] He's like it's fantastic. He's just like 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.917 you just sushi boat restaurant. He's like it's fantastic. You just sit at the 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.717 counter and like the startups just like come drifting by 00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:42.637 >> and you're [snorts] just like oh >> and he's like every once in a while you 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:44.957 know whenever you want you just reach out and you just like pluck a piece of 00:14:45.040 --> 00:14:50.557 sushi. [laughter] >> I remember thinking you know what 00:14:50.640 --> 00:14:53.347 >> I'm not sure that this is going to be as hard as we thought it was going to be. 00:14:53.430 --> 00:14:55.117 [laughter] >> You mean the competing part? 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.637 >> Competing part. Exactly. >> Yeah. It was very formative in how we 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.357 thought about um competing. We were 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:06.077 like, and still to this day when we think about the culture of the firm, 00:15:06.160 --> 00:15:08.637 it's like, don't be that. >> Yes. 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.637 >> You know, don't don't be Mr. Smartyp 00:15:10.720 --> 00:15:13.997 Pants like sitting in your Sand Hill 00:15:14.080 --> 00:15:18.557 Road office waiting for the sushi boat to come by. [laughter] Like, don't do that. 00:15:18.640 --> 00:15:22.157 >> And yet, I mean, look, yeah, maybe the competition isn't that hard, but it felt 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:24.477 like to me when I was at the out on the 00:15:24.560 --> 00:15:26.477 outcast side, it felt like to me the top 00:15:26.560 --> 00:15:29.517 five firms never changed. 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:32.717 >> Yeah. Like never ever changed, right? 00:15:32.800 --> 00:15:37.037 And you guys didn't h you guys hadn't peeled off from a VC firm and therefore 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:40.397 you didn't have a track. I mean, you had made some angel investments, but like 00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:44.237 >> basically not so much. Not to be insulting, but 00:15:44.320 --> 00:15:47.757 >> we had a professional. >> Yeah, it was a the angel fund was what, 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:51.197 like $2 million? >> Yeah, we had Yeah, we we had no I mean we had no training. We 00:15:51.280 --> 00:15:54.317 >> Right. And and then you know the the all 00:15:54.400 --> 00:15:59.117 like there are exceptions but all the important companies they're just like 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.037 the top five firms invest. So like the conundrum was like okay how do you break 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.917 into that list without 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.877 >> the substance right just with the ideas. 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.597 >> One more story one more story from that period and this this is one I love to 00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:15.997 tell the LPS. >> Another guy uh uh said oh he's like LPs 00:16:16.080 --> 00:16:19.037 he's like LPS you guys are going to you guys are going to hate dealing with LPS 00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:22.957 they're just the worst. Um, and >> it's a good thing to tell the competitor. Yeah. 00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:25.277 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, and he said, and he said, "The key is I," he 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:27.517 said, "I realized after a long career, I realized the key is you want to treat 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:30.557 the LPS like mushrooms." [laughter] >> Yeah. Like mushrooms. 00:16:30.640 --> 00:16:33.757 >> Like mushrooms. >> And we were like, "Magic mushrooms? 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.197 What the are you talking about?" 00:16:35.280 --> 00:16:38.157 >> So they treat mushrooms is you put you put them in a cardboard box, you put the 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:41.037 lid of the cardboard box, and you put it under your bed for two years [snorts] 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:43.357 >> and then you don't take the box out until the next time you need to raise 00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.150 money. [laughter] 00:16:46.240 --> 00:16:50.797 >> Wow. And it was that it it was so funny 00:16:50.880 --> 00:16:54.717 because the whole time we're thinking, wow, you know, we're coming out of 00:16:54.800 --> 00:16:58.317 running a public company. We've got like we're meeting with investors who are 00:16:58.400 --> 00:17:02.397 shorting our stock >> and like these guys have like very nice 00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:06.237 universities. They were just like super pleasant to 00:17:06.320 --> 00:17:08.557 talk to when we went out there. They had 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.517 interesting things to say. It's just so 00:17:11.600 --> 00:17:13.357 it was like wow, you guys are living in 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.557 like a weird perceptive world. One of 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:21.197 the surprising things to me, I had not ever met LPs because I wasn't on that 00:17:21.280 --> 00:17:25.517 side of the business, but like >> it's a really great community and a lot 00:17:25.600 --> 00:17:27.757 of them are super super missiondriven. 00:17:27.840 --> 00:17:31.117 They're not financiers. They they're just 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:35.757 >> they're very cool people. >> Yeah. Very long time horizons and very 00:17:35.840 --> 00:17:38.077 devoted to their institutions, very smart. I mean, they they spend all their 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.437 time thinking about right all these topics. They, you know, incredible we 00:17:41.520 --> 00:17:45.277 have incredible discussions, >> great investors. um and very patient and 00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:48.317 you know >> uh want to understand the strategy, care 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:52.077 about the strategy, plan to be in it a long time with us, all that kind of 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:57.357 thing. >> Um it's yeah, [laughter] it was just very interesting um that that was 00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.837 >> I go through the stories because it it is so indicative of so many of these 00:17:59.920 --> 00:18:02.557 things. It just there are certain industries at certain times where they 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.677 just get they get wedged. They get, you know, they get they get locked into 00:18:05.760 --> 00:18:08.957 patterns >> and and and you know, the most uncomfortable thing in the world is to 00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:10.557 like break the pattern, right? Right. 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:12.957 And if you don't have to, you know, if you don't have to, you don't. 00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:17.677 >> And if you think of it as a sushi situation or a mushroom situation, why 00:18:17.760 --> 00:18:20.557 would you ever do marketing? >> Right. Exactly. Right. Right. 00:18:20.640 --> 00:18:23.757 >> Why would you ever >> blackbox cartel, [snorts] 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:28.157 you know, >> some mystique, some like mystical fairy, 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.557 whatever creature is is way better. 00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.797 That's right. If there's no pressures on it, right? That's right. Yeah. And it 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.397 was it was a very good strategy which is why you know we went out with the 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.357 marketing and then um of course so so so 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:44.397 we do the press tour. Um and you get 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:49.757 Mark on the cover of Fortune which was that that was amazing to me because you 00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:53.277 know we had been running a company all these years and I remember you saying do 00:18:53.360 --> 00:18:56.557 you want to be on the cover of Fortune, Forbes or Business Week? 00:18:56.640 --> 00:18:59.277 >> And I was like >> and this [laughter] is when we get a choice. 00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:01.837 >> Yeah. This is like yeah being you know I don't know being in the I don't know 00:19:01.920 --> 00:19:06.477 Vatican museum or it's just like the most important thing you can possibly 00:19:06.560 --> 00:19:09.037 in those days those magazines particularly the covers were like 00:19:09.120 --> 00:19:13.597 incredibly important tough to get >> and then and and then the thing that 00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:17.997 like really blew my mind was I said fortune and then you got Mark on the 00:19:18.080 --> 00:19:21.917 cover of Fortune >> and and 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.037 nobody was going to put me on the cover of anything in those days. Yeah. 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:28.077 >> No, but you got to be on the cover of Fortune when you did your book. 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:29.997 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I did. I did. But 00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:32.957 that that be famous first. Yeah. 00:19:33.040 --> 00:19:35.597 >> Look, the thing is you you never get 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.477 what you don't ask for, right? And then 00:19:38.560 --> 00:19:41.357 >> it it's it's a com like at the time the 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:43.677 publications mattered really 00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:45.917 >> now. It's just the writer who matters. 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:50.077 And also now they're downstream from all the entire internet, right? Like they 00:19:50.160 --> 00:19:52.477 come in at the end basically. >> Yeah. 00:19:52.560 --> 00:19:55.677 >> But um Kevin Manny was a really good 00:19:55.760 --> 00:19:58.637 writer. He had had a really strong track 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:03.197 record like you you know followed him forever and he would write substantive 00:20:03.280 --> 00:20:07.117 curiosity driven stories right >> and he was great. The worst part about 00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.117 that whole thing was the damn photo shoot 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.997 >> this Mark hates stuff [laughter] 00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:16.477 and like I know remember when you did that finger thing I want you. I was like 00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:19.277 that's going to be it. Like it's just not even a question but that was the 00:20:19.360 --> 00:20:23.117 worst part about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. It was a 00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:26.157 scary picture. It was good. 00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:28.797 It was some fun. But that that kind of 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:33.197 set off um kind of really 00:20:33.280 --> 00:20:37.357 positioning us at that point. We knew we weren't going to be friendly with the 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.277 industry. So we were not only not going 00:20:39.360 --> 00:20:41.997 to be in the cartel, we were going to be 00:20:42.080 --> 00:20:44.557 against the cartel because they hated 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.757 that cover story. Oh my god. I mean, 00:20:47.840 --> 00:20:50.637 they went bananas. They called every LP. 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.717 They're like, "These guys, they're egoomaniacs. Look at him on the cover of 00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:58.077 the magazine. That's not supposed to be him. That's supposed to be the 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:02.557 entrepreneur. What the hell? D. I mean, they just like lost 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:04.397 >> We didn't have any entrepreneurs at the 00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:07.197 time. 00:21:07.280 --> 00:21:12.717 >> No, it's that's that's bananas. I think I think that comes from them viewing 00:21:12.800 --> 00:21:16.317 having to do any of those kinds of outbound activities as beneath beneath 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:18.877 them and kind of unseemly. And here we 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.557 were like like unashamed about like 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.237 advertising ourselves and our wares if you will, right? So it was kind of like 00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:31.197 what we're doing what now? And >> um I it worked I think and I think it 00:21:31.280 --> 00:21:35.597 got sort of >> I think that but like mostly I think the 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:39.117 writing >> got us in with the entrepreneurs because 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:42.637 like I I remember I think it was you Mark told me that an entrepreneur said 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.517 like I kind of feel like I know you guys a little bit. That's right. Right. 00:21:45.600 --> 00:21:46.717 >> Having not even met you yet. 00:21:46.800 --> 00:21:50.397 >> Yeah. So they hadn't been our offices, they hadn't met anybody, but they had 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.957 some idea of like who are these people and what do they care about? And then 00:21:55.040 --> 00:22:00.077 from then on, >> every time a GP would come on board, we're like, okay, 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.517 >> what do you want to invest in? 00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:05.437 Therefore, we're going to write about these things because that that is 00:22:05.520 --> 00:22:09.997 becomes the magnet for the entrepreneurs in that corner of the internet or AI 00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:11.757 infrastructure, whatever it is, right? 00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:15.117 And I think that was really powerful particular with the entrepreneurs. 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:15.757 >> Yeah. 00:22:15.840 --> 00:22:18.797 >> Yeah. It was kind of one in those days 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.557 um VC was like a big secret and then 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.317 actually building companies was a big secret and so just kind of talking about 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:30.477 it >> was a big differentiator you would learn right when you because 00:22:30.560 --> 00:22:33.277 you'd hear as entrepreneur you hear all these horror stories you know from other 00:22:33.360 --> 00:22:35.597 entrepreneurs of like things that have gone wrong in the relationship with the 00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.917 VC and all the problems but you didn't know like if you [snorts] didn't know 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.877 who any of the people were when you walk in the door like who do you trust how 00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:43.677 are they going to behave under pressure you know what what are they going to do 00:22:43.760 --> 00:22:47.997 right um and So, I mean, yeah, I it's a great if you can get away with having 00:22:48.080 --> 00:22:51.597 nobody know who you are and still, you know, be be on top of the industry, it's 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.517 great, but like if somebody actually does, you know, does it the other way, 00:22:55.600 --> 00:22:58.797 it's it causes a permanent change, which is, I think, what we catalyed. 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:01.277 >> It does. And to me like I don't know the 00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:03.757 latest numbers but like the the blog 00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:06.637 posts that that you would write or the 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:10.877 other um GPS would write that are sort of like timeless like I remember the 00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:14.797 good product manager bad like that is one of the most successful blog post and 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.557 you know how many blog posts the firm has put out like a gajillion right but 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.637 like the ones that have depth that the entrepreneurs can like take something from 00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:27.757 >> and that is somewhat timeless way more important than are we in a bubble or are 00:23:27.840 --> 00:23:31.757 we not in a bubble and that was kind of fun and that was like like chatter. 00:23:31.840 --> 00:23:34.237 Yeah. >> But like the substantive pieces on like 00:23:34.320 --> 00:23:39.117 how do I construct a company? How do I manage a person? How do I think about 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.037 promotions? Like all that kind of stuff. 00:23:41.120 --> 00:23:44.397 Like I think that that was really valuable to the entrepreneurs and I 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:47.997 think it also showed our LPs like okay they actually are very passionate about 00:23:48.080 --> 00:23:50.477 all the details of the stuff that they invest in. 00:23:50.560 --> 00:23:53.677 >> Well that was one of the interesting things is the LPs were like reading all 00:23:53.760 --> 00:23:55.277 the [laughter] content. I mean, which is 00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:58.477 so different than uh a public market 00:23:58.560 --> 00:24:01.917 investor just say um you know they and 00:24:02.000 --> 00:24:04.157 not only did they read the content but 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:07.437 we have many LPs that um Reddit would 00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:11.117 call up say hey in managing my little 00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:15.357 organization you know this is what I'm running into and so forth. So they 00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:20.317 really they're real partners. Uh >> right >> in a way that um 00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.357 >> yeah it's just been you know that's been probably one of the best parts of the 00:24:23.440 --> 00:24:27.117 firm is to to get to have >> investors like that. 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:30.957 >> Yeah. We got one we did one incredibly controversial blog post was turns out 00:24:31.040 --> 00:24:33.517 like a few LPs really hated the headline 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:38.557 and it it was um was in the bio health team and it said cancer which I 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.037 thought wasn't very controversial [laughter] but are so nice. They were 00:24:43.120 --> 00:24:44.637 like, "Did you have to put it that way?" 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.097 I mean, there are better ways to put this. I'm like, "All right, fine. 00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:50.797 [laughter] >> Screw cancer." >> Right. 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.037 >> Yes. For the record, we're very anti-cancer. 00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:56.477 >> Yeah, we're very and we're willing to say so. 00:24:56.560 --> 00:25:00.317 >> But they they deeply care about like everything that we put out, which I 00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:04.157 think is quite flattering even even though they may hate some of it. So, one 00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:08.637 of the things in the early days that I wanted to ask you about is like because 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:11.117 we came out and because they kind kind 00:25:11.200 --> 00:25:13.757 of we caused that reaction with the 00:25:13.840 --> 00:25:17.517 other VCs, I I kind of felt like we, you 00:25:17.600 --> 00:25:20.397 know, maybe I took it too far in terms 00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:24.317 of just the VC competitiveness and the 00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:29.837 anti-VC stuff, like we really went hard in in the early days. Like, since you 00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:31.837 brought this up >> over the line. Yeah. So since you 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.957 brought this up, you have to you have to your your thing with was it the Sarah 00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:39.197 Lacy? >> The peak of this was the your peak moment of this was in the Sarah Lacy 00:25:39.280 --> 00:25:41.437 thing. >> Okay, you have to refresh my memory. 00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:44.237 Okay. So, remember Sarah Lacy uh at her 00:25:44.320 --> 00:25:47.037 peak by by the way she was a great uh 00:25:47.120 --> 00:25:49.837 great journalist um and then she had 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.557 this thing PO Daily that she started and 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:55.117 then she had this uh these big events 00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.797 >> and I spoke at the event and she she 00:25:58.880 --> 00:26:01.517 said to me and it just like I it popped 00:26:01.600 --> 00:26:04.797 out. She said, "You know, you you're you 00:26:04.880 --> 00:26:10.077 kind of like have a lot of conflict with the other VCs." And I said, "Well," I 00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:11.437 said, 00:26:11.520 --> 00:26:14.557 I come from enterprise software and so 00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:17.677 like when I see another VC coming at me 00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:22.637 and I quoted Little Wayne with a P sign all I see is the trigger and the middle 00:26:22.720 --> 00:26:25.997 finger [laughter] and 00:26:26.080 --> 00:26:29.117 >> that I so my answer was going to be that 00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:33.277 like you have an inner enterprise sales dude in you. 00:26:33.360 --> 00:26:37.997 >> Yeah. Can't get it out. Yeah. If there if there's ever like I think like 00:26:38.080 --> 00:26:42.637 >> when it comes to other firms it's like which is horseshit because we co-invest 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.677 like we don't actually compete all that much, right? 00:26:45.760 --> 00:26:47.757 >> No, no, no. We we should be partnering. 00:26:47.840 --> 00:26:51.757 >> But basically your filter is like >> you're going to get the deal or I'm 00:26:51.840 --> 00:26:54.157 going to get the deal. You die or I die. 00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.797 It's like that's that's sort of the the thing that happens to you in any sort of 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.477 competitive situation. And >> yeah, >> God help you if you're in the way of 00:27:02.560 --> 00:27:04.957 that. So yeah, I think we overdid it 00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:09.917 because like I said like you guys have joint board seats you know you you will 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:13.117 we will our teams will call people and it's like hey we've got this company 00:27:13.200 --> 00:27:17.037 would you like to do follow investment all that stuff here you are pissing them off 00:27:17.120 --> 00:27:21.197 >> and we caused a lot of I cause a lot of antagonism between us and the other 00:27:21.280 --> 00:27:25.837 firms in those days which I think we've you know at this point like we're 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.957 more friendlier and they're not exactly shrinking ballots themselves so you know 00:27:29.040 --> 00:27:32.717 they're also also also [laughter] also true. 00:27:32.800 --> 00:27:34.557 >> They've risen to the occasion. Yes. 00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.957 >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> I think I think we're past that. Maybe. 00:27:39.040 --> 00:27:41.837 Maybe now. >> Yeah. I I think we're we're we're much 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.237 more user friendly now for sure in terms 00:27:44.320 --> 00:27:47.837 of uh our VC our our many VC partners uh 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.517 that we have. 00:27:49.600 --> 00:27:52.157 So then uh tell us you know one of the 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.517 the big pieces that came out was um when 00:27:55.600 --> 00:27:57.837 Mark wrote software is eating the world 00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.357 uh and how that came about was very 00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:04.877 interesting because it was a really busy time for us. It was like what 2011 so it 00:28:04.960 --> 00:28:07.597 was very I think we had just raised a second fund maybe 00:28:07.680 --> 00:28:09.757 >> and the way it came about was entirely 00:28:09.840 --> 00:28:15.117 random if you will. So at the time there was a guy um you know the economist has 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:19.197 these reporters and they sent them to new regions and new beats like for 25 00:28:19.280 --> 00:28:22.237 years and they go from Hong Kong to Silicon Valley whatever. At the time 00:28:22.320 --> 00:28:26.557 there was a guy called Martin Giles and he was covering 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.957 >> very nice guy. >> Yes. Very nice guy. Um great guy. And he 00:28:31.040 --> 00:28:33.517 would cover um Silicon Valley who's 00:28:33.600 --> 00:28:37.997 British. And every so often I forget what the cadence is. They do a special 00:28:38.080 --> 00:28:41.597 report. And they were doing a special report on the state of tech and where it 00:28:41.680 --> 00:28:46.077 was going. And we were sitting >> remember my first office was at this 00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:47.837 office. It was I think it was next door. 00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.317 That's right. >> It was like we the three of us were 00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:53.357 sitting there and Martin is visiting and he's asking all these questions and Mark 00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:55.917 was like well it's basically like software is eating the world and then he 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:00.317 explains the whole thing and I'm like >> this is really interesting and I was 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.637 like we should write this down and Mark's like sure maybe later. And then I 00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:08.157 placed it with this guy Ryan at the Wall Street Journal and he's like, "If I had 00:29:08.240 --> 00:29:09.677 an operate like that, would you run it?" 00:29:09.760 --> 00:29:12.317 And he's like, "Yeah, sure. I would run it." 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.597 >> And then Mark wrote it when when you 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.757 could schedule things [laughter] like that. And Mark wrote exactly one draft 00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:22.397 and it's still that same draft. And I'm sure you're torturing yourself because 00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:25.357 you would change all kinds of things this that and the other. And then just 00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:31.277 for kicks to bookend that story when you wrote was it time to build? 00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:33.997 >> It's time to build. >> Yeah. wrote, "It's time to build." Like, 00:29:34.080 --> 00:29:37.357 you caved for a minute. So, like, all right, we'll place it. Maybe we'll place 00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:40.557 it. And nobody took it. Nobody. 00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:44.077 >> Oh, yeah. That's right. >> I called Ryan who has since gone on to 00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:48.317 bigger and better things. I'm like, Ryan, >> can I ask you a hypothetical that thing 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.357 like if I like you've been at the journal and it's like, of course, like 00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.677 it's a joke. That's not even a question. 00:29:53.760 --> 00:29:56.957 >> But times have changed, so nobody ran it. 00:29:57.040 --> 00:30:01.597 >> Good thing we had a big piece of we had a good audience at the time. No. And I I 00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:05.277 think I forget I don't want to malign people but somebody said it's angry and 00:30:05.360 --> 00:30:07.197 I'm like you know we're in a pandemic. 00:30:07.280 --> 00:30:09.597 >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is >> and we don't we're wearing 00:30:09.680 --> 00:30:12.637 >> 2020. Yeah. And that was the Yeah. The the whole point of it was just that what 00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:15.517 was actually happening in the pandemic with literally the inability to get like 00:30:15.600 --> 00:30:18.957 surgical gowns. >> Exactly. [snorts] >> For first responders was like the the 00:30:19.040 --> 00:30:23.517 catalyst for it. Yeah. it read angry and I was like really 00:30:23.600 --> 00:30:25.037 >> software is eating the world is probably 00:30:25.120 --> 00:30:26.797 more famous but I'd say time to build is 00:30:26.880 --> 00:30:30.477 more influential in that um 00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:32.557 >> people read software is eating the world 00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.197 and then they didn't do anything they were like wow that's very interesting 00:30:35.280 --> 00:30:37.437 and then that was it but with time to 00:30:37.520 --> 00:30:40.317 build like the number of people in 00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:44.637 >> like Washington and entrepreneurial community and so forth that are like 00:30:44.720 --> 00:30:48.557 >> yeah we're taking this this is the blueprint we're moving on it I mean in a 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.557 way like the whole like abundance movement on the Democratic party came off 00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:55.277 >> which is a great development I think >> a great development yeah 00:30:55.360 --> 00:30:58.477 >> but I think the I have a theory on why that is software is eating the world 00:30:58.560 --> 00:31:02.477 it's like to our people our community duh 00:31:02.560 --> 00:31:04.077 >> hello that's happening and they were all 00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:08.077 building against it they didn't need to read the thing and the people who needed 00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:11.597 to do something were going to get flattened by the software eating the 00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:16.477 world movement and they didn't know what to do like how do you retool into a like 00:31:16.560 --> 00:31:19.437 remember all the car companies that came to visit us right and you take them 00:31:19.520 --> 00:31:23.357 through autonomous and does the brand even matter and whatever. It just did not 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.557 >> register. They they weren't going to become a software company. Therefore, 00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:29.437 nobody nobody who needed to do something with it did. Right. 00:31:29.520 --> 00:31:31.437 >> Because it's just rather difficult. 00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:34.717 >> Yeah. Especially, you know, one of the very 00:31:34.800 --> 00:31:37.277 interesting things uh that we've learned 00:31:37.360 --> 00:31:41.197 as a firm is how unusual it is for a 00:31:41.280 --> 00:31:44.397 company that's been around a long time 00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:49.117 um and where the founders are no longer there to change anything. anything. 00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.757 Yeah. >> Yeah. Even in like I mean it's been a 00:31:51.840 --> 00:31:54.557 huge blessing for us in venture capital 00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.277 and that many of the firms that were 00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:01.837 extremely powerful when we started just never changed. 00:32:01.920 --> 00:32:04.237 >> They're exactly as they were. Like it's 00:32:04.320 --> 00:32:08.877 almost like frozen in time. It reminds me of if you've ever been to Havana in 00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.957 Cuba, right? >> It it's frozen in time. It's all 1959. 00:32:13.040 --> 00:32:17.757 Like the cars are 1959, the buildings, everything. It's like just frozen. And 00:32:17.840 --> 00:32:19.837 uh you know whole industries freeze like 00:32:19.920 --> 00:32:22.317 that. The auto industry for sure did. Uh 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:25.837 and you know it was 00:32:25.920 --> 00:32:30.797 >> Elon you know Elon was came along for what how long when did he start Tesla? 00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:35.197 Early 2000s and you know had been going and going and going and then like 00:32:35.280 --> 00:32:39.757 >> when the car comes out and is awesome everybody is just like sitting there going 00:32:39.840 --> 00:32:42.157 >> what do we do here? I mean, look, I just 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:46.637 saw this on X. I think like the layoff numbers from the German car companies, 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:50.957 my home country, >> like every six job in Germany is somehow 00:32:51.040 --> 00:32:55.037 related to the auto industry. >> It's a disaster. 00:32:55.120 --> 00:33:00.237 >> Yeah. >> But they're not going like the a genius software engineer is not going to 00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:03.357 they're going to want to work for Elon Musk. Like you can say about Elon Musk 00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:06.077 whatever you want but like a 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.197 >> suave well manicured executive from the 00:33:09.280 --> 00:33:13.997 car industry is like not really like an a talent magnet for software engineers 00:33:14.080 --> 00:33:15.037 right so 00:33:15.120 --> 00:33:17.757 >> and then uh you know one of the things 00:33:17.840 --> 00:33:22.717 that happened early was I got a um 00:33:22.800 --> 00:33:25.357 note from Harper Collins saying that I 00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.317 should write a book. Yeah. And uh and you know we I did not have time to write 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.197 a book but you made it. >> Yeah. You thought well you thought it 00:33:33.280 --> 00:33:34.397 was a good idea to write the book. Why 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.597 did you think it was a guy? I guess it 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.477 seemed one it seemed crazy because the 00:33:40.560 --> 00:33:42.717 blog was doing so well. So like aren't 00:33:42.800 --> 00:33:47.837 books pass a at least to us. I mean >> and then um 00:33:47.920 --> 00:33:52.397 yeah and then we didn't have I didn't have time. So like 00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:55.757 why did you think that made sense? I guess it wasn't something that VCs did 00:33:55.840 --> 00:33:59.917 either, right? like I do think we needed to even out the 00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:03.037 brand a little bit because like otherwise any entrepreneur with leverage 00:34:03.120 --> 00:34:06.317 was going to go like well I want him to be on my board right and that was just 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:10.317 going to get successes worse with every other GP so that like we needed a plan 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:14.797 for everybody right and you were the other at at the time 00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:19.837 >> I thought the book was good because I think >> andre other >> there is exactly 00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:24.717 >> which is why you wanted to call it horitz andre I remember which uh 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.557 >> it does sound her And it's a cool sounding name. It sounds a little law 00:34:28.640 --> 00:34:32.157 firmish though. And then you could never A16Z would like 00:34:32.240 --> 00:34:36.237 >> wouldn't work. >> H16N is not nearly as good. 00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:39.997 >> It it is good the way it is. I do still think there is value in a book of like 00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:42.717 having a definitive theory on something. 00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.077 Okay. >> I think with all the blog posters and all the expos and all that, I think 00:34:46.160 --> 00:34:50.237 there is value. People people read books. People consume consume books. 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:54.157 Long form podcast is sort of a a different version of the same flavor. 00:34:54.240 --> 00:34:57.277 But more importantly, I thought you had something to say. Y 00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.957 >> like the the actual theory of like how 00:35:01.040 --> 00:35:05.277 one builds a company and like all the stuff that goes sideways. And as you 00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:08.877 always said, >> most books like the whoever the guy was 00:35:08.960 --> 00:35:11.357 from this and that, GE, whatever. They 00:35:11.440 --> 00:35:16.157 were all kind of fancy resumes and victory labs. They weren't really 00:35:16.240 --> 00:35:19.597 >> where you could learn something. and particularly for our audience that like 00:35:19.680 --> 00:35:23.917 it's so rough and tumble to be in a startup and to be in the trenches and to 00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:26.797 lose the deal and like not be able to raise the money and you have this 00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:29.997 magical person walk out the door and all that kind of stuff. So having an honest 00:35:30.080 --> 00:35:33.517 book that I think you I was expecting you to write I thought was really 00:35:33.600 --> 00:35:35.837 valuable and then you know the little 00:35:35.920 --> 00:35:41.037 hack that we had is you had written all the blog post right and so then it was 00:35:41.120 --> 00:35:44.237 >> I have a little built-in audience >> right and then it was it's telling the 00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:48.717 dramatic story of like what went down you know including with Felicia being 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:53.117 sick and all of that right like that then made the book but like you kind of 00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:55.677 had the lessons in your head and like I 00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.397 actually think that book like I like the 00:35:58.480 --> 00:36:02.717 title I've been living by what you do is who you are forever. I like that title 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:06.237 better, but I think this is a more important book and it's way more kind of 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:09.677 usable for for people. >> It's much more broad-based. I think the 00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.957 uh the what you do is who you are is 00:36:13.040 --> 00:36:15.197 it's actually it's more useful for me. 00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:19.357 Um and you know, when I talk to like Ted Sarandos or somebody like that, they're 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:21.117 like, "Oh yeah, that's a book I like." 00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:22.877 But you have to run a very large 00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.597 organization and you you have to have 00:36:25.680 --> 00:36:28.477 gotten beyond the things hard thing 00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:33.597 about hard things to start to think about okay how do you program the 00:36:33.680 --> 00:36:36.957 culture of the whole organization and this kind of thing >> but I remember the Navy 00:36:37.040 --> 00:36:39.837 >> too abstract >> wanting to wanting to buy the book the 00:36:39.920 --> 00:36:43.517 hard thing about hard things right like I think people actually think it's much 00:36:43.600 --> 00:36:45.197 more applicable than you might think 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.877 >> well oh no no it so it's very the hard 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:53.437 thing about hard things I would say in retrospect was very broadly applicable 00:36:53.520 --> 00:36:55.597 like pastors bought it and 00:36:55.680 --> 00:36:59.117 >> you know people you'd never think but 00:36:59.200 --> 00:37:00.477 you know like to me everything the hard 00:37:00.560 --> 00:37:03.277 thing about hard things is like easy 00:37:03.360 --> 00:37:07.837 whereas I had to think a lot more about what you do is who you are it's just 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:09.597 like but you know it's one of those 00:37:09.680 --> 00:37:11.117 things it's like you know how many 00:37:11.200 --> 00:37:15.517 people need to learn uh algebra versus 00:37:15.600 --> 00:37:18.557 quantum physics it's it's a it's a thing like that 00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:21.917 >> yeah that's a that's a good point no I actually thought the book was valuable 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:26.557 to your brand. >> Yeah. >> And a good equalizer. And also I think 00:37:26.640 --> 00:37:28.877 it raised the ambition like when when we 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:33.757 then hired new GPS >> it was just understood that they were 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:38.237 going to be out in the world and then it was a matter for me for my team to go 00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:40.477 like okay so what are your thoughts? 00:37:40.560 --> 00:37:44.397 Hopefully you have some right and then what are you good at? And then matching 00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.477 the format. Not everybody should write a book right and not everybody should do 00:37:48.560 --> 00:37:51.677 podcasts. Some people are good with decks and all of that, but like it was a 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:54.477 given that the bar is high. >> Well, that's, you know, that's such a 00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:56.797 good point because one of the things 00:37:56.880 --> 00:38:01.517 that we always get asked because Grace did such a nice job of of marketing the 00:38:01.600 --> 00:38:03.997 book is well, like how do you market your book? 00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:08.397 >> Well, go ahead. And I'm like, well, look, you can do there's like well-known 00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:12.557 marketing ideas and so forth and you can do a lot of things and you can get 00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:15.997 yourself even on like the bestseller list, 00:38:16.080 --> 00:38:19.837 >> but then the book's going to disappear unless it's a great book. Like it has to 00:38:19.920 --> 00:38:24.477 be good, right? Like that's the fundamental thing. And so like if you 00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:28.077 don't write something that's good, if you're completely focused on like how 00:38:28.160 --> 00:38:31.197 you promote it before you've written it, like that's probably about 00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:34.077 >> that's backwards. Yeah, that is backwards. You have to actually believe 00:38:34.160 --> 00:38:37.437 that you have an idea that that's worth 00:38:37.520 --> 00:38:41.757 putting a book. Like a book has to stand the test of time. You know what I mean? 00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:44.717 It has to be an actual thing versus a tweet or 00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:49.837 >> Well, so many people in business take a blog post idea, a blog post length idea, 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:51.597 and they try and turn it into a book. 00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:54.957 And um >> some things are just a snack. 00:38:55.040 --> 00:38:58.797 >> Yeah, they're snacks and snacks should be snacks. Yeah, [laughter] >> exactly. 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:00.717 >> Yeah. know I thought the book served you 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:03.197 well and I think it it made it made the 00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:08.237 everybody in the firm go like oh >> like I don't know that Andrew would he 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:11.117 have thought automatically walking in here it's like well maybe I should write 00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:14.797 a book. >> Yeah. >> Like and it just made it open up the 00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:16.397 thinking I think for everybody else. 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:18.397 >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know a good thing 00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:20.317 about you also learn a lot when you 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:23.757 write a book. So I I think everybody's 00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.477 it set the standard of 00:39:26.560 --> 00:39:30.877 you can't just have an idea here. you have to be able to really think it 00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:34.877 through, be able to articulate it, be able to write it, be able to publish it. 00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:38.477 >> And otherwise, like your idea didn't count. And that 00:39:38.560 --> 00:39:41.597 >> that I think um has helped us a lot as an artist. 00:39:41.680 --> 00:39:46.637 >> I mean, look at Katherine Bole. I mean, she came in with the pitch of like if I 00:39:46.720 --> 00:39:49.997 work here, I'm going to do American Dynamism and here's what that is. And 00:39:50.080 --> 00:39:52.397 like she also happens to be a gifted 00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:53.677 communicator 00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.197 >> and now it's, you know, it was a deck. 00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:02.317 Now it's a movement and a fund >> and like it's helping really change the 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:05.677 way people think about defense tech as all of a sudden allowed. 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:10.157 >> Remember back in the day Diane Green was outed from Google for like a very 00:40:10.240 --> 00:40:14.077 innocent contract would look at pictures [laughter] satellites, right? And that 00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:17.997 like and Katherine played a re is playing a really big role in turning 00:40:18.080 --> 00:40:20.157 that around, right? And that's an idea. 00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:23.677 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure it is. 00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:25.437 You know, I hadn't actually thought 00:40:25.520 --> 00:40:28.557 about it that much, but it's a very 00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:31.037 important part. It's how like marketing, 00:40:31.120 --> 00:40:33.117 our original marketing ideas turned into 00:40:33.200 --> 00:40:36.557 kind of a very important cultural point 00:40:36.640 --> 00:40:40.157 >> uh of the firm, which is, you know, like this is how we work, this is how we 00:40:40.240 --> 00:40:42.637 think. >> I mean, sometimes it would it was so 00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:46.397 overdone like a new person comes in, first thing they want to do is meet with 00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:48.877 marketing. I'm >> like, do you know where you're sitting? 00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:52.317 And then and then I was like I literally I've had people say like you should 00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.677 really think about me like you should think about Mark Andre. 00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:57.357 >> And I was like okay what are your [laughter] thoughts? 00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.437 >> I I know exactly who that was but I'm not going to say no no no and it's all 00:41:01.520 --> 00:41:03.597 well intentioned but like you do you do 00:41:03.680 --> 00:41:06.637 have to test the actual idea right? Like 00:41:06.720 --> 00:41:09.277 is that a snack? Is it a book? Is it 00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:13.757 just a conversation? >> Like they need to be calibrated properly 00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:16.077 right and and sometimes young people who 00:41:16.160 --> 00:41:18.157 are incredibly ambitious. That was me. 00:41:18.240 --> 00:41:23.117 Still is. Like you just want to go right for the win, but you need to make sure 00:41:23.200 --> 00:41:26.237 you have the goods to do it. >> Yeah. Well, this this kind of gets into 00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:30.797 a conversation Mark and I have been having, which is, you know, the 00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:32.957 marketing of companies has changed so 00:41:33.040 --> 00:41:36.317 much uh because you're really now 00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:40.717 marketing a person. And that's a lot what we did at the firm now because the 00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:42.717 firm had our name. It was a natural. 00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:44.717 >> Also, we don't have products. 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.517 >> Yeah. And we we have products. We have people and ideas. That's it. 00:41:47.600 --> 00:41:51.437 >> We could but that's extended now to >> Oh yeah. 00:41:51.520 --> 00:41:55.917 >> You know, is it is it Tesla or is it Elon? Is it Palanteer? Is it Alex? You 00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:00.877 know, like and >> the in order to be able to do that like 00:42:00.960 --> 00:42:02.797 you can be an extremely accomplished 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:06.637 person who is not interesting. um like 00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:10.477 those don't necessarily go together >> and that I think that's a little bit 00:42:10.560 --> 00:42:13.597 unfair from the press or like it creates 00:42:13.680 --> 00:42:18.157 this perception that Silicon Valley is staffed entirely with weirdos, >> right? 00:42:18.240 --> 00:42:20.157 >> They're more interesting to write about. 00:42:20.240 --> 00:42:21.757 >> Somebody who goes to work every day and 00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.957 drives an Audi and is a good father and 00:42:25.040 --> 00:42:29.677 drops kid off at school, that's all nice. Like I'll I'll pick on someone, 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:31.677 right? Like Dylan Field. Yeah. 00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:33.997 >> Most amazing guy built an incredible 00:42:34.080 --> 00:42:37.117 company. I hosted dinners with him. He's 00:42:37.200 --> 00:42:41.837 just normal. Well adjusted. The weirdest thing about him is he did the Teal 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:46.237 Fellowship. >> Yeah. >> But like >> those don't get written up as much. The 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:50.637 weirdos like the weirder the better, right? Like and and it it's gotten to an 00:42:50.720 --> 00:42:54.557 extreme where it's like this is actually not reflecting Silicon Valley. It's just 00:42:54.640 --> 00:42:57.277 a the a slice of it. Well, it's an 00:42:57.360 --> 00:42:59.597 interesting marketing conundrum though 00:42:59.680 --> 00:43:05.357 because you can't >> market a company if you don't have a character, 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:08.237 >> right? >> Like like 00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:10.877 >> no, you used to look there used to be 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:12.957 companies and it was fine where all you 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:16.077 do is you report your financial results, 00:43:16.160 --> 00:43:20.957 you announce your new products and that kind of started to end with Steve Jobs 00:43:21.040 --> 00:43:23.037 because it was a show. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 00:43:23.120 --> 00:43:24.957 >> And he made you want a product. 00:43:25.040 --> 00:43:28.237 >> That's right. And like it it became it's 00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:32.077 almost like politics adjacent. Like you can't vote for a party. You're voting 00:43:32.160 --> 00:43:34.077 for a person. Yeah. And if you have the 00:43:34.160 --> 00:43:36.477 company but not a character or or a 00:43:36.560 --> 00:43:39.117 sense of character, it just doesn't 00:43:39.200 --> 00:43:43.597 work. And then you know the the corporate ex accounts and all of that. 00:43:43.680 --> 00:43:47.437 Those are all fine and like but like at the end of the day it's the identity of 00:43:47.520 --> 00:43:51.917 the person and do they actually sound like does the tweet sound like Mark? 00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:56.717 Right? like does the LinkedIn post sound like DG or whatever it is, right? Like 00:43:56.800 --> 00:43:58.957 you cannot disconnect it anymore, >> right? 00:43:59.040 --> 00:44:01.037 >> And that places a premium on people who 00:44:01.120 --> 00:44:03.997 are willing to play character or be 00:44:04.080 --> 00:44:06.237 character. I'm not sure that's always 00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:09.037 the healthiest thing for a company at 00:44:09.120 --> 00:44:11.517 every in at every stage, right? Or in 00:44:11.600 --> 00:44:14.157 every situation like that there are some 00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:18.797 downsides to it, but the upside beats the downside like 10 to one or whatever 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.877 the right number is. Well, it it requires a lot of discipline, I think, 00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.597 from the founder because you 00:44:25.680 --> 00:44:28.397 >> it turns you into like this uh mini 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:32.157 celebrity. And so, as a mini celebrity, 00:44:32.240 --> 00:44:33.837 um 00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:36.477 can you like be out there and not act 00:44:36.560 --> 00:44:39.517 like an actual celebrity because those 00:44:39.600 --> 00:44:41.997 aren't great organizational dynamics? 00:44:42.080 --> 00:44:46.557 Yeah. um just having been around uh you know many celebrities although 00:44:46.640 --> 00:44:50.077 >> and the thing is >> Nas notwithstanding he's a very regular 00:44:50.160 --> 00:44:52.237 uh person and and that kind of thing. 00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:54.957 >> Yeah, he's surprising though >> but he he's he's very surprising. He's 00:44:55.040 --> 00:44:57.357 very unusual >> but also he has an amazing product. 00:44:57.440 --> 00:45:02.477 >> Yeah, >> it's hard to argue. Uh so like being able to be like this interesting 00:45:02.560 --> 00:45:04.237 character on the outside and then come 00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:08.957 in and you know be well just be somebody 00:45:09.040 --> 00:45:13.357 who you can have an actual conversation with where you can get information and 00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.157 not be this >> thing that you put yourself on a 00:45:16.240 --> 00:45:19.277 pedestal to the point where people won't tell you anything and and that kind of 00:45:19.360 --> 00:45:21.037 stuff is very destructive in a company. 00:45:21.120 --> 00:45:24.317 >> Yeah. I think I think there's some there's some downside along those lines. 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:26.397 And then the other part is like you 00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:29.197 can't really fake that stuff. If if you 00:45:29.280 --> 00:45:32.637 have a public persona and it's not real 00:45:32.720 --> 00:45:35.597 and it's all manicured, it does does not 00:45:35.680 --> 00:45:38.397 work. It it won't work over time, right? 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:41.597 So you kind of have to lean like this is 00:45:41.680 --> 00:45:45.917 what I always try to do is lean into like who is this person and what are 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:50.157 they good at that they can sustain over time. Like you make anybody do a TED 00:45:50.240 --> 00:45:52.797 talk if you really really are hellbent on doing it. 00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:57.037 >> But like that's not actual marketing campaign that that's not a personal 00:45:57.120 --> 00:45:59.517 brand. You have to really figure out, okay, 00:45:59.600 --> 00:46:02.797 >> who is this person? What are their dynamics? What are their talents that 00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:06.797 they can actually be, not act, but like actually be, right? 00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:10.397 >> I think it's hard to actually be a character and a TED talk, 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:14.717 >> you know, like the people who do TED talks aren't characters and vice versa. 00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.917 You've never done a TED talk? Like I've I've never done a TED talk. I think it's 00:46:18.000 --> 00:46:20.237 hard to do both. Yeah. >> I've never watched a TED talk. 00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:21.197 >> You've never watched a TED talk? 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:25.437 >> I've never watched a TED talk. Oh man, you're missing out on a very beautifully 00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:29.197 packaged. It's almost like >> But that is my point. My point is that 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.397 is exactly my point. TED talks are these 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.637 very manicured 00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:38.477 >> things that like work for a minute. But 00:46:38.560 --> 00:46:42.237 like anybody who's seen so many TED talks is like this is all the same. It's 00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:46.557 all the exact same plastic, right? Or maybe you think it's platinum, but it's 00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:51.437 the exact same formulaic thing. That's not an actual brand. That's maybe an 00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:54.157 event that if you really care about it, like some people really care about that 00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:56.557 but like that's not actually who you are. 00:46:56.640 --> 00:46:59.677 >> They read they read to me as religious sermons [laughter] 00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:02.317 >> and I I have an aversion to fake religions. 00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.157 >> They're all they're all little morality. 00:47:04.240 --> 00:47:07.437 They're little morality stories. They've all they've all got a message >> and 00:47:07.520 --> 00:47:10.717 >> it's like the very special episodes of TV shows of the 1970s. They're the very 00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.917 special episodes where you like learn about >> very special happy days. 00:47:14.000 --> 00:47:15.277 >> You learn about drug addiction or Yeah. 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:18.637 Exactly. >> And the thing is I'm in marketing and I 00:47:18.720 --> 00:47:22.717 find them saccharine. like they're just too they're just too perfect in a way, 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:26.397 right? And and and they train you like crazy. And then you know they're the 00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.797 teams that peel off of TED and then they 00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:31.837 help executives be great and you can 00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:34.157 just I've talked to them and I'm like 00:47:34.240 --> 00:47:36.717 like you know you've been invited to 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.277 >> to podcast where that are produced that way and they literally are trying to 00:47:41.360 --> 00:47:44.317 script what you're going to say and I'm like we don't do that 00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:47.437 >> back specific format and that's why by the way that's why I'm saying that's why 00:47:47.520 --> 00:47:50.317 I'm I'm riffing on a little bit is because like my my instincts are to the 00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:52.957 exact opposite of that >> as you know which is like of the 00:47:53.040 --> 00:47:56.717 authenticity and rawness. when you could do a TED talk. I think you'd be fine at 00:47:56.800 --> 00:47:59.917 it, but like it's actually not you and like therefore it wouldn't it wouldn't 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:02.877 acrude to the brand. >> He could not do a TED talk because in 00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:06.477 order to do a TED talk they have to review what you're going to say and they 00:48:06.560 --> 00:48:09.597 have to edit it and there's no >> chance. 00:48:09.680 --> 00:48:12.957 >> No, what I'm saying is if he decided he wanted to if I edit something Mark 00:48:13.040 --> 00:48:17.277 writes like I take one sentence [laughter] and I give him one word in it 00:48:17.360 --> 00:48:21.277 and like and then that's that's as much as he likes to be edited. This is why I 00:48:21.360 --> 00:48:24.077 find it so hilarious when you send around like when you used to do that 00:48:24.160 --> 00:48:27.277 when you send around the blog post and then everybody is so eager to edit them 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:31.277 and I'm like this is such a waste of time. This is like 00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:35.037 not you. It's like not you. So >> that actually reminds me of my favorite 00:48:35.120 --> 00:48:39.837 thing that Larry David said. The rule on Seinfeld was no hugs and no lessons. 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.957 >> Exactly. That's right. That's right. 00:48:41.040 --> 00:48:42.557 That's right. >> And they're very special after 00:48:42.640 --> 00:48:44.637 >> and that's what made that that's what made that show so distinctive is they 00:48:44.720 --> 00:48:47.757 never did that. They never they never there was never it was never Modlin or 00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:51.917 Sakura. >> Never. >> Right. It was like almost unique in that way. Yeah. Yeah. 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:53.277 >> It's a very very good show. 00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:55.997 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's kind of the opposite of Ted. 00:48:56.080 --> 00:48:59.757 Yeah. And look, that is great. Like I'm not trying to malign it, but people like 00:48:59.840 --> 00:49:04.397 it. It's it's very manufactured and I don't think that's an actual brand. As a 00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:05.677 person, you can't be that brand. 00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:07.997 >> Yeah. The thing that works well and you know, a lot of this just has to do with 00:49:08.080 --> 00:49:10.797 the shift in technological environ media environment, but the thing that works in 00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:17.080 this media environment is much much more much more authenticity and >> transpority, 00:49:17.680 --> 00:49:20.877 right? So interesting. Yeah. >> Which is interesting because the old 00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:23.037 world like our media training in the old 00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:25.197 world was all like much is the opposite. 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:30.717 It's conformist um stand message uh >> discipline discipline discipline and 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.517 that's just out the window. And and the thing that I think what's interesting to 00:49:33.600 --> 00:49:38.317 media and that's what media has to figure out is >> they used to set the tone 00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.397 >> and now they're at the very end 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:42.077 >> at the very end of all the stuff that's 00:49:42.160 --> 00:49:45.597 been said on Twitter or um Reddit or it 00:49:45.680 --> 00:49:50.077 eventually spills out and then media is like oh what is this thing comment on 00:49:50.160 --> 00:49:53.597 the Rogan show >> but like it's it's at the very end and 00:49:53.680 --> 00:49:57.357 like for me that must be total out of body experience where it's like wait 00:49:57.440 --> 00:49:59.437 >> like I was the I was the beginning right 00:49:59.520 --> 00:50:01.437 when you when you were to when you were 00:50:01.520 --> 00:50:03.357 unveiling something, that's where you 00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:06.877 would go, right? And now you can go any 00:50:06.960 --> 00:50:11.197 freaking place that like you have 50,000 choices, right? And then it gets enough 00:50:11.280 --> 00:50:15.597 steam and then it gets reviewed by media almost, right? It's just like the order 00:50:15.680 --> 00:50:19.837 has flipped completely. Yeah, it it makes it very tricky to speak to the 00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:24.557 media because >> when they're on that end and they have 00:50:24.640 --> 00:50:29.997 to turn you into news, >> um anything you you say can and will be 00:50:30.080 --> 00:50:33.757 used against you, >> you know, it's a very Miranda type world. 00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:36.397 >> My new my new version my new version of this my the new test I think is 00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:39.917 happening is what we might call the GPT test, which is okay, if if what somebody 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:44.717 says is in indistinguishable from chat GPT output, >> like not going to make it. 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:47.757 >> Yep. >> Right. Um and and then the more advanced 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.907 version of the test is like is it indistinguishable from like chat GPT 3.5 00:50:52.990 --> 00:50:55.997 [laughter] >> right which is like not which is like 00:50:56.080 --> 00:50:59.837 the earlier version that's not as good >> and the number of public figures in 00:50:59.920 --> 00:51:03.997 various domains who continue to speak in public or put out crafted you know 00:51:04.080 --> 00:51:08.317 whatever and literally you're just like this is indistinguishable from what the 00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:13.037 LM could do um or or by the way columnists people write you know columns for a living 00:51:13.120 --> 00:51:17.437 >> like there's a lot of people who don't pass that test. Um and and so and I just 00:51:17.520 --> 00:51:20.637 say that of like there there's going to be a big big turnover there and then and 00:51:20.720 --> 00:51:24.237 then and then it begs the important question like okay what does it take to 00:51:24.320 --> 00:51:28.557 pass that test? Right. >> Right. Like how many >> while it's changing all the time. 00:51:28.640 --> 00:51:32.637 >> Yeah. Also true. Right. Exactly. But like who who is actually I had this a 00:51:32.720 --> 00:51:35.357 version of this conversation with Tyler Cohen one time. So Tyler Cohen and his 00:51:35.440 --> 00:51:39.117 partner Alex have been blogging daily for over 20 years. Marshall Revolution 00:51:39.200 --> 00:51:40.877 which is amazing. And they don't they do a great job 00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:43.357 >> and they're leaders of like these you know intellectual movement and they're 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:46.157 incredibly important influential and like all these things and they're in all 00:51:46.240 --> 00:51:48.717 these rooms that they you know they they will say this like it's put them in all 00:51:48.800 --> 00:51:51.437 these incredibly important rooms and >> and all these things and I was like wow 00:51:51.520 --> 00:51:54.237 it's worked so great for you guys. It's like why don't you know why don't more 00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:56.797 people do this and and Tyler just like laughed and he's like Mark how many 00:51:56.880 --> 00:51:58.797 people have something to say every day. 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:02.317 Yeah, that's a lot of talking, [laughter] right? Like genuinely like 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:04.717 how many people have that and then you know every day for 20 years is like 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.917 maybe the highest bar, but how many people have, you know, three interesting 00:52:08.000 --> 00:52:09.757 things to say or one interesting thing to say? 00:52:09.840 --> 00:52:13.997 >> But this is what this is my beef with some of these platforms or actually it's 00:52:14.080 --> 00:52:17.837 the humans. It's not the platforms. It's it's always the humans, right? We're like, 00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:20.477 >> does every thought that you have, >> right, 00:52:20.560 --> 00:52:23.117 >> need to go on X or wherever it needs to 00:52:23.200 --> 00:52:27.677 go? I would beg to differ, but like a lot of people No, a lot of people would 00:52:27.760 --> 00:52:30.077 go like, "Okay, it's a new day. I got to say something." 00:52:30.160 --> 00:52:31.677 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm like, I don't know. 00:52:31.760 --> 00:52:35.757 >> Well, to me, the test Let me ask you this though. I would you agree that the 00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.237 difference is if they have an interesting thought every day, that's one thing. 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:39.517 >> Fantastic. >> Right. Right. Right. 00:52:39.600 --> 00:52:42.637 >> The more the marrier, >> right? Right. Right. But but yeah, most people don't. 00:52:42.720 --> 00:52:44.957 >> But like most people don't. And I sort of feel like 00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:47.117 >> even the people every day don't always. 00:52:47.200 --> 00:52:52.077 Yeah. >> They would be better served to like >> pop up when 00:52:52.160 --> 00:52:54.797 >> Yeah. when they have a thought or or contribute something to the 00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:58.797 conversation. Yeah, that's >> I I don't know. I just don't think that 00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:02.317 everybody has interesting things to say every day. 00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:03.917 >> If I look at X, I see proof. 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:06.477 >> Well, the reason I go through this is because my my theory at least is the 00:53:06.560 --> 00:53:08.797 nature of leadership is change because of everything you you guys have 00:53:08.880 --> 00:53:11.997 discussed, the nature of leadership is changing. And the the the lead that the 00:53:12.080 --> 00:53:15.597 the people who the leaders who have very the large number of interesting things 00:53:15.680 --> 00:53:17.837 to say and know how to communicate it are going to do disproportionately well 00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:21.037 in the years ahead. And the leaders who don't, even if they're professionally 00:53:21.120 --> 00:53:22.957 skilled, I think are going to have a harder and harder time and their 00:53:23.040 --> 00:53:25.037 companies are going to have a harder and harder time because it's just the old 00:53:25.120 --> 00:53:26.797 the old methods are just not working as well anymore. 00:53:26.880 --> 00:53:30.557 >> No. Well, particularly on the um on the marketing front. 00:53:30.640 --> 00:53:33.597 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like but 00:53:33.680 --> 00:53:35.757 people are changing like it's been 00:53:35.840 --> 00:53:38.877 interesting to watch uh our friend uh 00:53:38.960 --> 00:53:43.837 Mark Zuckerberg kind of change his public persona so much so fast. 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:48.077 >> So great. >> Yeah. I mean >> uh so he's kind of I mean running a 00:53:48.160 --> 00:53:52.077 gigantic social media company you you would think he would figure it out but I 00:53:52.160 --> 00:53:55.437 guess but it's still very difficult to do >> well and it actually mapped to an 00:53:55.520 --> 00:53:58.317 internal change right like he himself changed 00:53:58.400 --> 00:54:01.517 >> right it wasn't like a synthetically generated message like it's every 00:54:01.600 --> 00:54:05.437 everything of like Mark Zuckerberg in public now is is 100% wholly authentic 00:54:05.520 --> 00:54:10.157 >> he used to try to calculate >> um 00:54:10.240 --> 00:54:13.677 what he was going to say through the lens of all his many many constituents 00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.277 and now He's saying what he thinks. 00:54:15.360 --> 00:54:19.037 >> Yeah. People he was and as you know he was trained to do that. He received the 00:54:19.120 --> 00:54:23.757 A+ grade version of that training from people who were world class at that 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.917 >> and it worked for a while and then the environment 00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:30.637 >> but I also think he whoever was advised like overdid it. I remember being in 00:54:30.720 --> 00:54:34.557 your office and was like that man has the wrong beer somewhere. It's a scandal 00:54:34.640 --> 00:54:39.117 because it was so perfect. I was like chill out a little bit. Well, you know 00:54:39.200 --> 00:54:41.517 what it was >> and then he did now that he's doing the 00:54:41.600 --> 00:54:44.077 like this is me deal with it. It's working great. 00:54:44.160 --> 00:54:46.397 >> And again, the people who train people who train him are like super geniuses 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:49.117 and they were fantastic. But they they themselves were trained in what I would 00:54:49.200 --> 00:54:51.997 describe as like 1980s, 1990s style politics. 00:54:52.080 --> 00:54:54.157 >> They came out politics in particular. 00:54:54.240 --> 00:54:55.517 >> They came out of a political background, 00:54:55.600 --> 00:54:57.757 right, which is an even more intense version of everything that we're talking 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:00.317 about. >> Yeah. >> And so they got train they they got 00:55:00.400 --> 00:55:03.597 trained the way politicians got trained in the 1990s, which was extremely uh 00:55:03.680 --> 00:55:07.597 scripted and controlled, >> right? Maximally so. Um and so and then 00:55:07.680 --> 00:55:11.037 just the the as we've disc like just this massive shift in the environment 00:55:11.120 --> 00:55:14.157 since then has basically rendered I mean I mean you see this playing out 00:55:14.240 --> 00:55:16.637 >> I [snorts] think he's done a great job >> all over the world right which is this 00:55:16.720 --> 00:55:19.117 is also everything we're talking about is also playing out politically. Yes. 00:55:19.200 --> 00:55:20.717 >> And maybe even more so politically. 00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:23.197 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's even like like the subtle 00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:27.917 things have been the most interesting to me. So he used to be known for like he's 00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:31.517 always wearing a hoodie which was the most conformous thing in the world in 00:55:31.600 --> 00:55:35.517 Silicon Valley, right? And now like he's got like the gold chains and this hair 00:55:35.600 --> 00:55:37.517 all over the, you know, and and it's 00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:40.477 kind of like he's he's expressing 00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:43.757 himself, you know, on all fronts. 00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:44.957 Exactly what he looks like in private. 00:55:45.040 --> 00:55:49.117 Like it now now it all matches. It's been great to kind of see him flower 00:55:49.200 --> 00:55:50.957 like that and be able to like fully express himself. 00:55:51.040 --> 00:55:52.877 >> Yeah. I think it's great something spectacular. 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:56.957 >> Still people are like, "Well, what's with the gold chains?" I'm like, 00:55:57.040 --> 00:56:00.157 >> he likes them. Yeah. >> Well, here's an executive. I know the 00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:03.757 main one that he wears has a real it's important just with his faith. 00:56:03.840 --> 00:56:07.837 >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a guy who runs a ginormous 00:56:07.920 --> 00:56:10.397 company that's in the spotlight all the time and like this is what you're 00:56:10.480 --> 00:56:12.717 picking on. It's like >> hello. 00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:15.517 >> Also true. >> But it's I I think when people from the 00:56:15.600 --> 00:56:18.637 old world see that it makes him very 00:56:18.720 --> 00:56:20.637 uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. One of Okay. 00:56:20.720 --> 00:56:25.917 One of the guys who was doing what we wanted him to is no longer he's off the 00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:27.197 leash. >> He's not on the program. That's right. 00:56:27.280 --> 00:56:29.437 That's right. Yeah. Well, he's liberated. 00:56:29.520 --> 00:56:33.197 >> We go all the way back to when when what's his name? The found Dennis from 00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:36.717 Foursquare, >> he got yelled at because he went um to a 00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:41.437 press meeting with a hoodie on like all the way at the beginning. [laughter] 00:56:41.520 --> 00:56:43.917 >> That was I remember that. I remember that. Yeah. 00:56:44.000 --> 00:56:46.797 >> He was like I think and he had a banana or something like that. It was like 00:56:46.880 --> 00:56:50.557 apparently >> entirely [clears throat] unacceptable, >> right? 00:56:50.640 --> 00:56:52.797 >> It's almost makes it nostalgic. 00:56:52.880 --> 00:56:54.717 >> Very interesting. >> So I think companies I mean look I think 00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:57.597 all this stuff I'm view all this stuff is going to intensify. I I think every 00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:00.157 successful company in the I think every successful company in the future is 00:57:00.240 --> 00:57:02.157 going to need this kind of personality. 00:57:02.240 --> 00:57:04.237 >> They're gonna need somebody who can do this and it's it's a different 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:06.637 leadership profile. >> Do you think it has to be the CEO? 00:57:06.720 --> 00:57:09.117 >> I I think it's really hard for it not to be. 00:57:09.200 --> 00:57:11.117 >> I I I mean maybe maybe it could be 00:57:11.200 --> 00:57:13.597 another founder. I think can do it. 00:57:13.680 --> 00:57:17.597 >> Yeah. Co-founder for sure if you're a consumer brand. Yeah. 00:57:17.680 --> 00:57:21.037 >> I think it's very difficult to not have a 00:57:21.120 --> 00:57:26.397 >> a person like that. I think you know if you're less marketing like like if you 00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:30.157 are like if the I mean there are historically businesses that are all 00:57:30.240 --> 00:57:33.837 >> but I think if you're in a compet competitive situation and on the other 00:57:33.920 --> 00:57:35.677 side there's somebody who's really good at it. 00:57:35.760 --> 00:57:38.957 >> Yeah. >> It still sucks. If you sell security stuff 00:57:39.040 --> 00:57:41.677 >> Palanteer is as enterprise you know government as it gets and 00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.237 >> Oh yeah. No is like is killing it. 00:57:44.320 --> 00:57:47.357 >> He's perfect for that. >> Imagine being a competitor to Palunteer 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:51.197 and not having an Alex right like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even just the 00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.757 stock market valuation alone, like how can you possibly keep up? 00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:58.317 >> Yeah. It's basically can you sell? And the way you're selling today is entirely 00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.517 different. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like it's not, you know, having 00:58:01.600 --> 00:58:03.437 features and a Gartner report. It's just like 00:58:03.520 --> 00:58:05.917 >> I think it's great. I think it's I I I think it's I think it's leading to a 00:58:06.000 --> 00:58:08.877 more honest world. Uh like more transparent, more authentic, 00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:11.917 >> more honest, more interesting things being discussed, more interesting issues 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:14.157 getting surfaced, people actually getting to know each other. 00:58:14.240 --> 00:58:15.837 >> Yeah. It's a much less sanitized world. 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.317 >> Yeah. That's right. That's right. And of course that that it's uncom it's 00:58:18.400 --> 00:58:21.277 uncomfortable because if you're used to if you're used to the the wall you know 00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:23.917 the wall as they say the wald garden if you're used to a sanitized environment 00:58:24.000 --> 00:58:27.197 if you're used to Disneyland entering the real world is traumatic >> very traumatic 00:58:27.280 --> 00:58:30.157 >> but like we do live in the real world right and 00:58:30.240 --> 00:58:32.237 >> and as always it's the transition that's 00:58:32.320 --> 00:58:36.477 the toughest part it's going like oh this is all different now right and and 00:58:36.560 --> 00:58:38.877 I think we're in a really big transition 00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.437 >> and the transition is transitioning it's sort of like 00:58:41.520 --> 00:58:44.157 >> that's right and we're still in the middle of it like it's not over yet 00:58:44.240 --> 00:58:47.437 >> yeah yeah know it's going to it's definitely going to keep moving Yeah. 00:58:47.520 --> 00:58:49.357 >> All right. Well, we're going to keep going. 00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:50.877 >> Good. Awesome. Fantastic. Yes. 00:58:50.960 --> 00:58:53.997 >> Thank you. Thank you for joining us on the Mark Advent show. This has been a 00:58:54.080 --> 00:58:58.267 lot of fun. Thank you, too. Hope you enjoyed it. 00:58:58.350 --> 00:59:00.370 [music]