1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,837 I cause a lot of antagonism between us and the other firms in those days. 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,277 >> Your filter is like you're going to get the deal or I'm going to get the deal. 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:10,717 You die or I die. >> And they're not exactly shrinking ballots themselves. 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:14,237 >> They hated that cover story. Look at [music] him on the cover of the 5 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,557 magazine. That's not supposed to be him. 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,317 Not supposed to be the entrepreneur. 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:23,677 What the hell? D. I mean, they just like we didn't have any entrepreneurs at the 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,997 time. >> VC was like a big secret. And then 9 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,517 actually building companies was a big secret. And so just kind of talking 10 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,437 about it was a big differentiator. 11 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:34,957 >> We don't have products. 12 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:36,397 >> Yeah. And we we have products. 13 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:40,680 >> We have people and ideas. That's it. 14 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,557 >> All right. Welcome to the A16C. What are 15 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,397 we on? The Mark and Ben show. Welcome to 16 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:51,357 the Mark and Ben show. Um today we've 17 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,077 got Margaret Wenmachers, the legendary 18 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,197 >> Oh jeez. uh head of marketing for A16Z 19 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:01,757 for for the last 16 years. Uh and she is 20 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,157 going to uh tell us the story of all that. You've heard snippets of it from 21 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,597 me and Mark over the years, but now we're going to hear the real thing from 22 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:11,437 the real person. Market, welcome. 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,957 >> Thank you so much for having me, guys. 24 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,437 I'm thrilled to be here. But between the legendary and the 15 or 16, I feel kind 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,917 of ancient. [laughter] >> Wise wise. 26 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:24,477 No, it's getting us all. It's very It's very rough. 27 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:26,237 >> I know. It just that way. 28 00:01:26,320 --> 00:01:29,357 >> Um, so maybe we can start with just like 29 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:31,917 uh when we met maybe we I'd love to hear 30 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,997 it from your perspective. Where were we 31 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,957 at? Hobies or I think it was the stats. 32 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,837 The crearyy. The crearyy. The crearyy. 33 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:41,757 >> At that point was your office. 34 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,557 >> Yeah. >> And um so I >> I forgot. Yeah. The the firm started at 35 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,517 the crearyy. That's right. >> Right. Exactly. So I was um some a 36 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,277 certain someone who shall go nameless tried to hire outcast 37 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,917 >> and um Facebook invoked a conflict of interest. You know exactly who that is, 38 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,677 right? And so that certain someone called Mark and like just call Mark 39 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,797 Zuckerberg and I think you have better things to do than like pull a favor for 40 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:11,197 Mark Zuckerberg to go like why don't you like just whatever. Anyhow, but I think 41 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,437 you asked for my email address and so 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,237 that's how we were introduced. Ah, 43 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,637 >> and then I was told to go to the crearyy. The waiter at the crearyy, he's 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,637 like, "Go be it here. They're meeting with some democratic functionaries or 45 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,397 something like that." [laughter] >> So I wait there with my little 46 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:31,357 capabilities presentation and I I had 47 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,437 met you like years before, but like had no recollection. I had not met you. I'd 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,477 heard about you a little bit. >> So I go there with my capabilities 49 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:43,117 presentation. I sit down. The the Democrats left the booth and I sit down. 50 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,677 You basically were just looking straight ahead. You You were just like I don't 51 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,317 know what you were thinking about, but it was not that big 52 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,877 >> probably. How we get the fur we raised 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,597 the money >> and then Mark grabs the like you grab 54 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,877 the capabilities position which was generic because I had no idea why I was 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,357 there. Right. >> So, and you go like okay so how do you 56 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,077 pick the clients and here are the clients and why those clients and not 57 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,597 these clients and like like teams whatever like detailed questions. So, I 58 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:14,077 got this little grilling and then you both said thank you and I left and I 59 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,837 concluded that it was probably because you were angel investing at the time and 60 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:21,677 you had just left HP. I was like >> maybe they just want to have somebody 61 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,317 they can recommend to their angel portfolio or whatever. 62 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,357 >> Yeah. Right. Right. >> And then a few months later 63 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,437 >> we met at the Rosewood I think. No, it was not the Was it the Rosewood? 64 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,997 >> We were there a lot. So anyhow, and then 65 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,357 you guys, okay, so we're going to start this firm 66 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,037 >> and uh top secret blah blah blah. I'm going to start this firm and it's going 67 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,837 to be the two of us, $300 million. And this was at a certain time where money 68 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,757 was kind of tight. [laughter] >> 2009 to the end the end of the world, 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:51,197 >> right? There was no liquidity. 70 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:52,397 >> The last end of the world. Yeah. 71 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:56,317 >> And I looked a little quizzical and I said like, you know, it's not a great 72 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,957 time. And you said, Mark said, let's 73 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,517 assume success, shall we? And then you 74 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,157 had already had the the idea of like 75 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,957 well we wanted to say something but we 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,757 we couldn't be out talking to press or 77 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:11,837 be on Twitter at the time or whatever 78 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,797 else and raise money be viewed as 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,037 soliciting money. Right. So >> Mark then went um he had a standing 80 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:23,037 invitation I think on Charlie Rose and you went on Charlie Rose and you had all 81 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,397 a nice very nice chat and at the very end he was like well by the way we're 82 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:31,277 going to start a VC firm [laughter] >> and then we all went quiet. So that was 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,997 that that's my recollection. I don't know what you guys thought. I remember 84 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,077 thinking, yeah, like I I I was just so 85 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,397 distracted with 86 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,837 how like how do we raise money? Like we 87 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,677 had never met uh LPS till till then. And 88 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,357 so and then we every VC that we had been 89 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:51,357 meeting with and we at the same time we 90 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,677 were meeting with lots and lots of VCs 91 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,037 trying to understand the industry and um 92 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,797 they all said that's a dumbass idea for 93 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,997 a fund. you should definitely not do it. 94 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,877 Uh >> they just wanted to give you jobs, I'm assuming. 95 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:10,637 >> Uh yeah. Well, they they were like, well, you know, well, one of them said 96 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,797 that um we should just do like we'd never raise it from the LP, so we should 97 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:19,197 just raise the money from VCs and give the VCs who invested half the carry. 98 00:05:19,280 --> 00:05:23,517 That was >> interesting plan. >> Yeah, that was one strategy. And then 99 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,917 the the the whole platform thing that 100 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,917 was that was really dumb because it had 101 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,957 been tried before and proven like like 102 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,677 proven like you know QED 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,717 uh that it could never work >> actually who who tried it for real. 104 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,997 >> I don't know. So I think the main thing that they were thinking about was the 105 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:45,197 incubators. >> Oh yeah. So I think it was the Bill It 106 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,077 was the late 90s. Exactly. And and you know actually in retrospect like it's 107 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,997 actually very very like so there's this entrepreneur Bill Gross Idea Lab. 108 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,597 >> Yeah. Yeah, which >> incubator created I think a lot of 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:55,837 companies. I mean among the companies you created turned out to be the company 110 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,037 that created basically the Google search model [snorts] 111 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,517 >> as well as like a bunch of other like super interesting companies. So I think 112 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,237 those those actually worked the good ones worked better than people remember. 113 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,437 But um >> yeah they they specifically and the 114 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:11,997 incubators in those days went for like a 50% equity split. Um right as contrasted 115 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:13,997 a like combinator which is famously like 116 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:19,037 7%. Um and so to justify the 50% they did like they did they provided your 117 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,397 office space and your accounting services and your legal services and so 118 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,437 Right. Exactly. >> And it just and in our view you know we 119 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,077 had just we we had been entrepreneurs and so we just had a very different 120 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,037 perspective on what we actually needed from our venture firms and so we we just 121 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,277 had a very different view than the incubators had 122 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,557 >> and then the existing VCs just yeah for whatever reason couldn't put themselves 123 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,877 in that in that I think because they hadn't been entrepreneurs. 124 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,557 >> They hadn't been customers of the VC product. So they weren't looking at it 125 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:46,717 through that lens. they were looking at it, you know, from the provider and you 126 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,877 know that by the way those businesses were all great businesses. So, you know, 127 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:53,037 they they sort of earned the right to be 128 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,717 arrogant in that sense. 129 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,397 >> Yeah. And I remember the Bill Gross when 130 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,877 he was talking and I met him and it was all like, okay, I have all these ideas. 131 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,237 >> Well, it was also that there was that, right? hire an entrepreneur and you guys 132 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,357 had come from a completely different lens where you had the ideas and 133 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,197 believed that you know Larry Ellis and those people had the ideas not the 134 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,197 >> financial machinery right >> and then obviously you had absorbed the 135 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,837 oitz um playbook right so it's a very different version of a platform 136 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,917 >> from an from a v from an incubator >> yeah and as as you know I mean that's so 137 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,477 basically what we did when we had to find a historical model for what we're 138 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,077 doing it turned out to be turned out to be CA because that that just mapped much 139 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,837 more um to what we had in mind there hadn't been precedent like that applied 140 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:40,077 in the valley. >> Yeah. And at that time uh it was before 141 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,557 Ozitz's book came out. So that whole 142 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:47,357 strategy was basically a secret. Nobody knew it. Like you had to know oitz to 143 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,077 know it. >> Um and oitz was very secretive. 144 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,877 >> Yes. >> Uh you know we we had like several 145 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,317 conversations before we could actually get it out of him even though he was out 146 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,317 of CIA for many years. you know, it was 147 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:05,997 it was like a very um secret formula he had come up with and it it you know it 148 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,557 was an amazing thing >> but it ended up being a genius thing to 149 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,317 have him on your board like it was a 150 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,757 very unorthodox pick like looking in 151 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,317 from the outside and it led to all all kinds of useful connections and useful 152 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,997 thinking right >> yeah true >> yeah it was uh it was controversial at 153 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:23,837 the time even amongst our own board I 154 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,037 won't name names but uh yeah it was uh it it was different to have them we 155 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:30,957 actually met him through Ron Conway, right? 156 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,357 >> Years ago. >> Yeah. >> The human router of all time. 157 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,517 >> The human router. Yeah. Great. That was a great intro from Ron. 158 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,677 >> And uh Yeah. What a what an interesting friendship that's been. 159 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,837 >> So So the next thing that happened. So 160 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:47,677 then we're going to raise the money and 161 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,077 we decide that we're going to talk to 162 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,557 the press. Um which was very different 163 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,037 for VCs to actually be aggressive about 164 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:57,837 that. Usually the VCs would want to talk 165 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,077 to the press and some of them had been clients at the IPO time, right? 166 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,797 >> So they wanted to basically have no risk, 167 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,757 >> but then when the company goes public, it's like, "Hey, I did that." Right. So 168 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,957 it was it was kind of we did it backwards, if you will. 169 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,757 >> Yeah. You're right. With with nothing [laughter] 170 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,837 >> nothing in hand. We we just went for it. 171 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,517 So as soon as >> we raised the fund, was it Yeah. We must 172 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,797 have had to raise the fund to do the press tour. Yep. Because the gun 173 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,997 jumping. Yeah. And so 174 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,477 how did you think about it? I guess you know it was very kind of magical from 175 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:34,477 our point of view other than you know when Wyatt slammed the door in my face. 176 00:09:34,560 --> 00:09:39,117 But [laughter] [gasps] >> well that was a useful signal. We we 177 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,717 realized oh we have to we have to even the plague field here a little bit. 178 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,477 >> Yeah that was a little bit of a problem. 179 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:47,517 So tell us tell us about that. Yeah, 180 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,317 >> the way I used to think about this when 181 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,237 this was all working so magically is 182 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,877 that okay so if you read any article and 183 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,757 you just dissect the headline 184 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,717 the paragraphs like how it unfolds and 185 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:05,197 then so you take a client like you guys or or a product company you go okay how 186 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,517 do I fill that how do I write that story from a reporter's point of view and like 187 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,917 do you actually have it right and so if 188 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,277 the story is like oh $300 million and 189 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:19,037 two people who have never actually done this before. That's not a great story. 190 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,277 But we did have the column interest to 191 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,917 fill, if you will, because you had the 192 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,797 idea for the platform, right? You you 193 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,197 had you had been proven successful entrepreneurs. You had credibility with 194 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,197 the core audience, right? And taking a step back, the thing that we all decided 195 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,357 is like we're just going to >> aim all of our communications at the 196 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:42,557 entrepreneurs, at the at the entrepreneurs versus the LPS because we 197 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,837 have their numbers. We we know how to call them. and you guys got great 198 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,797 introductions to people, but like it all needs to be very entrepreneur friendly. 199 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:50,477 And so we sort of set out like we have 200 00:10:50,560 --> 00:10:53,197 this platform and it's all in service of 201 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,397 the entrepreneur who is the genius if if 202 00:10:56,480 --> 00:11:01,197 the and then hopefully the idea works right and then how do can how can we add 203 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,597 value and that was different enough to me having met like most of all the other 204 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:06,637 VCs 205 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,837 >> and then you know the tall guy over here 206 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,797 had co-created the browser so that was 207 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,517 not a VC credential but it was an 208 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:17,517 incredible entrepreneur credential right 209 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,777 like so you how and then and then you 210 00:11:21,860 --> 00:11:25,517 [snorts] did the the turnaround like the save of all time. I mean, I'm not so 211 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:29,357 good with sports analogies, but there's there's got to be 17 in there, right? 212 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,117 Like having turned that around and sold 213 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,717 it to HP and for like money money 214 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,637 >> was just spectacular. So, I think the 215 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,917 the two people who were behind it were 216 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,917 very entrepreneur friendly. They had really good credentials both on the tech 217 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,557 side and a category creation side and on the sort of like how does one execute 218 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,797 one of those companies and then you had the money and you had the money at a 219 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,277 time when there was no money. Yeah. 220 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,237 >> Right. Like there was nobody really raising and like the other people they 221 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,877 could just sit and wait right until times got better. 222 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,717 >> Yeah. >> And then I think >> if I remember correctly who had done it 223 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,677 in three months which at the time seemed very spectacular because there was no 224 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,837 money. So I could then pitch [clears throat] and it's like, okay, 225 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,997 like it's those two guys and it did in 3 months and have you read the news and 226 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,277 then they have all these ideas. Well, actually, one of the funny things that 227 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,917 happened while we were raising money that uh upset Mark upset me because I 228 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,997 just thought it was weird. But we went 229 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:32,397 to see an LP who who we knew. And the LP 230 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,437 walks into the meeting, you know, and here we are like, you know, and it 231 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,637 really kind of brought us back to raising money in general, which is a 232 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,797 good kind of thing to go through if you're going to be uh investing in 233 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:46,477 companies because you need to know what that feels like. So, you know, we're 234 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:49,917 Yeah, we we're [snorts] like practicing the pitch where he got it all lined up. 235 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,357 We're like, "Okay, this is a big meeting. It's a it's a big LP." And we 236 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:55,917 go in and the guy comes in and he goes, 237 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,357 "Oh, yeah. You know, yeah, this I I I I 238 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,077 I uh you know, I hear what you guys are 239 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,717 doing. I think, you know, at best you could raise it in 18 months, but it'll 240 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:11,167 be very hard. But I got to go. I'm going to go talk to some exNFL players." 241 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:15,037 [laughter] quote, "I have to go over to Stanford. I 242 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,437 have to talk to a room full of NFL players and how to manage their money 243 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,757 and then now that they're now that their NFL careers are over." 244 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,757 >> Yeah. >> Like that was the that was the thing 245 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,037 that was more important than talking to us, which was a very um Yeah, that was a 246 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,847 level setting experience. >> Yeah. We were like >> that was extremely motivating. 247 00:13:28,930 --> 00:13:32,317 [laughter] >> Yeah. >> As you can tell, 248 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,157 >> it was Mark was like super pissed [laughter] 249 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:40,797 and I just remember going, "Wow, like that's so disrespectful." It's just like 250 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,357 so crazy that that that he would do that. 251 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:48,157 >> I just made a little angel investment and like this um entrepreneur is trying 252 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:49,917 to raise money and like literally she's 253 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,877 been told by an investor. I think people 254 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,597 like you just basically shouldn't exist. 255 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:59,277 >> Guess how motivated she is. 256 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,237 >> Show that >> This is the thing. The nuclear fire that 257 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,877 you get on the other side of that is Yes. Like I can't believe people 258 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,797 actually say that out loud and they're not like they're 95 and they don't have 259 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,757 a filter anymore. Like they're just >> we went I mean there was all these 260 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,237 stories from this time but I mean there have been obviously many great VCs 261 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,197 before us but there we I mean we went out and we basically met all the all the 262 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,477 top VCs you know kind of because one of them knew we were doing it 263 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,397 >> and [snorts] uh and you know a different guy one of the VCs at the time I 264 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,597 remember him saying uh he's like oh yeah venture is a great business. Venture is 265 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:31,077 like running it's like it's like going to a sushi sushi boat restaurant. 266 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,277 [laughter] He's like it's fantastic. He's just like 267 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,917 you just sushi boat restaurant. He's like it's fantastic. You just sit at the 268 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,717 counter and like the startups just like come drifting by 269 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,637 >> and you're [snorts] just like oh >> and he's like every once in a while you 270 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:44,957 know whenever you want you just reach out and you just like pluck a piece of 271 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:50,557 sushi. [laughter] >> I remember thinking you know what 272 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,347 >> I'm not sure that this is going to be as hard as we thought it was going to be. 273 00:14:53,430 --> 00:14:55,117 [laughter] >> You mean the competing part? 274 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,637 >> Competing part. Exactly. >> Yeah. It was very formative in how we 275 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,357 thought about um competing. We were 276 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:06,077 like, and still to this day when we think about the culture of the firm, 277 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,637 it's like, don't be that. >> Yes. 278 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:10,637 >> You know, don't don't be Mr. Smartyp 279 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,997 Pants like sitting in your Sand Hill 280 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,557 Road office waiting for the sushi boat to come by. [laughter] Like, don't do that. 281 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:22,157 >> And yet, I mean, look, yeah, maybe the competition isn't that hard, but it felt 282 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:24,477 like to me when I was at the out on the 283 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,477 outcast side, it felt like to me the top 284 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,517 five firms never changed. 285 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:32,717 >> Yeah. Like never ever changed, right? 286 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:37,037 And you guys didn't h you guys hadn't peeled off from a VC firm and therefore 287 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:40,397 you didn't have a track. I mean, you had made some angel investments, but like 288 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,237 >> basically not so much. Not to be insulting, but 289 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,757 >> we had a professional. >> Yeah, it was a the angel fund was what, 290 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:51,197 like $2 million? >> Yeah, we had Yeah, we we had no I mean we had no training. We 291 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,317 >> Right. And and then you know the the all 292 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:59,117 like there are exceptions but all the important companies they're just like 293 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,037 the top five firms invest. So like the conundrum was like okay how do you break 294 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,917 into that list without 295 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,877 >> the substance right just with the ideas. 296 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,597 >> One more story one more story from that period and this this is one I love to 297 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:15,997 tell the LPS. >> Another guy uh uh said oh he's like LPs 298 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,037 he's like LPS you guys are going to you guys are going to hate dealing with LPS 299 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,957 they're just the worst. Um, and >> it's a good thing to tell the competitor. Yeah. 300 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,277 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, and he said, and he said, "The key is I," he 301 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,517 said, "I realized after a long career, I realized the key is you want to treat 302 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,557 the LPS like mushrooms." [laughter] >> Yeah. Like mushrooms. 303 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,757 >> Like mushrooms. >> And we were like, "Magic mushrooms? 304 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,197 What the are you talking about?" 305 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,157 >> So they treat mushrooms is you put you put them in a cardboard box, you put the 306 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,037 lid of the cardboard box, and you put it under your bed for two years [snorts] 307 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,357 >> and then you don't take the box out until the next time you need to raise 308 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,150 money. [laughter] 309 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,797 >> Wow. And it was that it it was so funny 310 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,717 because the whole time we're thinking, wow, you know, we're coming out of 311 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,317 running a public company. We've got like we're meeting with investors who are 312 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:02,397 shorting our stock >> and like these guys have like very nice 313 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,237 universities. They were just like super pleasant to 314 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,557 talk to when we went out there. They had 315 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,517 interesting things to say. It's just so 316 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,357 it was like wow, you guys are living in 317 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,557 like a weird perceptive world. One of 318 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,197 the surprising things to me, I had not ever met LPs because I wasn't on that 319 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,517 side of the business, but like >> it's a really great community and a lot 320 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:27,757 of them are super super missiondriven. 321 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:31,117 They're not financiers. They they're just 322 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:35,757 >> they're very cool people. >> Yeah. Very long time horizons and very 323 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,077 devoted to their institutions, very smart. I mean, they they spend all their 324 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,437 time thinking about right all these topics. They, you know, incredible we 325 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,277 have incredible discussions, >> great investors. um and very patient and 326 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,317 you know >> uh want to understand the strategy, care 327 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,077 about the strategy, plan to be in it a long time with us, all that kind of 328 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:57,357 thing. >> Um it's yeah, [laughter] it was just very interesting um that that was 329 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,837 >> I go through the stories because it it is so indicative of so many of these 330 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:02,557 things. It just there are certain industries at certain times where they 331 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,677 just get they get wedged. They get, you know, they get they get locked into 332 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,957 patterns >> and and and you know, the most uncomfortable thing in the world is to 333 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:10,557 like break the pattern, right? Right. 334 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:12,957 And if you don't have to, you know, if you don't have to, you don't. 335 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,677 >> And if you think of it as a sushi situation or a mushroom situation, why 336 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,557 would you ever do marketing? >> Right. Exactly. Right. Right. 337 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,757 >> Why would you ever >> blackbox cartel, [snorts] 338 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,157 you know, >> some mystique, some like mystical fairy, 339 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,557 whatever creature is is way better. 340 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:32,797 That's right. If there's no pressures on it, right? That's right. Yeah. And it 341 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,397 was it was a very good strategy which is why you know we went out with the 342 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,357 marketing and then um of course so so so 343 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:44,397 we do the press tour. Um and you get 344 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:49,757 Mark on the cover of Fortune which was that that was amazing to me because you 345 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,277 know we had been running a company all these years and I remember you saying do 346 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:56,557 you want to be on the cover of Fortune, Forbes or Business Week? 347 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,277 >> And I was like >> and this [laughter] is when we get a choice. 348 00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,837 >> Yeah. This is like yeah being you know I don't know being in the I don't know 349 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,477 Vatican museum or it's just like the most important thing you can possibly 350 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,037 in those days those magazines particularly the covers were like 351 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:13,597 incredibly important tough to get >> and then and and then the thing that 352 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:17,997 like really blew my mind was I said fortune and then you got Mark on the 353 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,917 cover of Fortune >> and and 354 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,037 nobody was going to put me on the cover of anything in those days. Yeah. 355 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:28,077 >> No, but you got to be on the cover of Fortune when you did your book. 356 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,997 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I did. I did. But 357 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,957 that that be famous first. Yeah. 358 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,597 >> Look, the thing is you you never get 359 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,477 what you don't ask for, right? And then 360 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,357 >> it it's it's a com like at the time the 361 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,677 publications mattered really 362 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:45,917 >> now. It's just the writer who matters. 363 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,077 And also now they're downstream from all the entire internet, right? Like they 364 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,477 come in at the end basically. >> Yeah. 365 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,677 >> But um Kevin Manny was a really good 366 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,637 writer. He had had a really strong track 367 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:03,197 record like you you know followed him forever and he would write substantive 368 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,117 curiosity driven stories right >> and he was great. The worst part about 369 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,117 that whole thing was the damn photo shoot 370 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,997 >> this Mark hates stuff [laughter] 371 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,477 and like I know remember when you did that finger thing I want you. I was like 372 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,277 that's going to be it. Like it's just not even a question but that was the 373 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:23,117 worst part about it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was good. It was a 374 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,157 scary picture. It was good. 375 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:28,797 It was some fun. But that that kind of 376 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:33,197 set off um kind of really 377 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,357 positioning us at that point. We knew we weren't going to be friendly with the 378 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,277 industry. So we were not only not going 379 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,997 to be in the cartel, we were going to be 380 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,557 against the cartel because they hated 381 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,757 that cover story. Oh my god. I mean, 382 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,637 they went bananas. They called every LP. 383 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,717 They're like, "These guys, they're egoomaniacs. Look at him on the cover of 384 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,077 the magazine. That's not supposed to be him. That's supposed to be the 385 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:02,557 entrepreneur. What the hell? D. I mean, they just like lost 386 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,397 >> We didn't have any entrepreneurs at the 387 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,197 time. 388 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,717 >> No, it's that's that's bananas. I think I think that comes from them viewing 389 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,317 having to do any of those kinds of outbound activities as beneath beneath 390 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,877 them and kind of unseemly. And here we 391 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,557 were like like unashamed about like 392 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,237 advertising ourselves and our wares if you will, right? So it was kind of like 393 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:31,197 what we're doing what now? And >> um I it worked I think and I think it 394 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:35,597 got sort of >> I think that but like mostly I think the 395 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,117 writing >> got us in with the entrepreneurs because 396 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,637 like I I remember I think it was you Mark told me that an entrepreneur said 397 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,517 like I kind of feel like I know you guys a little bit. That's right. Right. 398 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:46,717 >> Having not even met you yet. 399 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,397 >> Yeah. So they hadn't been our offices, they hadn't met anybody, but they had 400 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,957 some idea of like who are these people and what do they care about? And then 401 00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:00,077 from then on, >> every time a GP would come on board, we're like, okay, 402 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:01,517 >> what do you want to invest in? 403 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:05,437 Therefore, we're going to write about these things because that that is 404 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,997 becomes the magnet for the entrepreneurs in that corner of the internet or AI 405 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:11,757 infrastructure, whatever it is, right? 406 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,117 And I think that was really powerful particular with the entrepreneurs. 407 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:15,757 >> Yeah. 408 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,797 >> Yeah. It was kind of one in those days 409 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,557 um VC was like a big secret and then 410 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,317 actually building companies was a big secret and so just kind of talking about 411 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,477 it >> was a big differentiator you would learn right when you because 412 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,277 you'd hear as entrepreneur you hear all these horror stories you know from other 413 00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:35,597 entrepreneurs of like things that have gone wrong in the relationship with the 414 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,917 VC and all the problems but you didn't know like if you [snorts] didn't know 415 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,877 who any of the people were when you walk in the door like who do you trust how 416 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,677 are they going to behave under pressure you know what what are they going to do 417 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,997 right um and So, I mean, yeah, I it's a great if you can get away with having 418 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,597 nobody know who you are and still, you know, be be on top of the industry, it's 419 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,517 great, but like if somebody actually does, you know, does it the other way, 420 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,797 it's it causes a permanent change, which is, I think, what we catalyed. 421 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,277 >> It does. And to me like I don't know the 422 00:23:01,360 --> 00:23:03,757 latest numbers but like the the blog 423 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,637 posts that that you would write or the 424 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,877 other um GPS would write that are sort of like timeless like I remember the 425 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,797 good product manager bad like that is one of the most successful blog post and 426 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,557 you know how many blog posts the firm has put out like a gajillion right but 427 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,637 like the ones that have depth that the entrepreneurs can like take something from 428 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:27,757 >> and that is somewhat timeless way more important than are we in a bubble or are 429 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,757 we not in a bubble and that was kind of fun and that was like like chatter. 430 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,237 Yeah. >> But like the substantive pieces on like 431 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:39,117 how do I construct a company? How do I manage a person? How do I think about 432 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,037 promotions? Like all that kind of stuff. 433 00:23:41,120 --> 00:23:44,397 Like I think that that was really valuable to the entrepreneurs and I 434 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,997 think it also showed our LPs like okay they actually are very passionate about 435 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,477 all the details of the stuff that they invest in. 436 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,677 >> Well that was one of the interesting things is the LPs were like reading all 437 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,277 the [laughter] content. I mean, which is 438 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,477 so different than uh a public market 439 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,917 investor just say um you know they and 440 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,157 not only did they read the content but 441 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,437 we have many LPs that um Reddit would 442 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,117 call up say hey in managing my little 443 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,357 organization you know this is what I'm running into and so forth. So they 444 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,317 really they're real partners. Uh >> right >> in a way that um 445 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,357 >> yeah it's just been you know that's been probably one of the best parts of the 446 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,117 firm is to to get to have >> investors like that. 447 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,957 >> Yeah. We got one we did one incredibly controversial blog post was turns out 448 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,517 like a few LPs really hated the headline 449 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,557 and it it was um was in the bio health team and it said cancer which I 450 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,037 thought wasn't very controversial [laughter] but are so nice. They were 451 00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:44,637 like, "Did you have to put it that way?" 452 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,097 I mean, there are better ways to put this. I'm like, "All right, fine. 453 00:24:48,180 --> 00:24:50,797 [laughter] >> Screw cancer." >> Right. 454 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,037 >> Yes. For the record, we're very anti-cancer. 455 00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,477 >> Yeah, we're very and we're willing to say so. 456 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,317 >> But they they deeply care about like everything that we put out, which I 457 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,157 think is quite flattering even even though they may hate some of it. So, one 458 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,637 of the things in the early days that I wanted to ask you about is like because 459 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,117 we came out and because they kind kind 460 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,757 of we caused that reaction with the 461 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,517 other VCs, I I kind of felt like we, you 462 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:20,397 know, maybe I took it too far in terms 463 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,317 of just the VC competitiveness and the 464 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,837 anti-VC stuff, like we really went hard in in the early days. Like, since you 465 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,837 brought this up >> over the line. Yeah. So since you 466 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,957 brought this up, you have to you have to your your thing with was it the Sarah 467 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,197 Lacy? >> The peak of this was the your peak moment of this was in the Sarah Lacy 468 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,437 thing. >> Okay, you have to refresh my memory. 469 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,237 Okay. So, remember Sarah Lacy uh at her 470 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,037 peak by by the way she was a great uh 471 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:49,837 great journalist um and then she had 472 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,557 this thing PO Daily that she started and 473 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,117 then she had this uh these big events 474 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,797 >> and I spoke at the event and she she 475 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,517 said to me and it just like I it popped 476 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,797 out. She said, "You know, you you're you 477 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,077 kind of like have a lot of conflict with the other VCs." And I said, "Well," I 478 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,437 said, 479 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,557 I come from enterprise software and so 480 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,677 like when I see another VC coming at me 481 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,637 and I quoted Little Wayne with a P sign all I see is the trigger and the middle 482 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,997 finger [laughter] and 483 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,117 >> that I so my answer was going to be that 484 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,277 like you have an inner enterprise sales dude in you. 485 00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:37,997 >> Yeah. Can't get it out. Yeah. If there if there's ever like I think like 486 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:42,637 >> when it comes to other firms it's like which is horseshit because we co-invest 487 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,677 like we don't actually compete all that much, right? 488 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,757 >> No, no, no. We we should be partnering. 489 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,757 >> But basically your filter is like >> you're going to get the deal or I'm 490 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,157 going to get the deal. You die or I die. 491 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,797 It's like that's that's sort of the the thing that happens to you in any sort of 492 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,477 competitive situation. And >> yeah, >> God help you if you're in the way of 493 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,957 that. So yeah, I think we overdid it 494 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,917 because like I said like you guys have joint board seats you know you you will 495 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,117 we will our teams will call people and it's like hey we've got this company 496 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,037 would you like to do follow investment all that stuff here you are pissing them off 497 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,197 >> and we caused a lot of I cause a lot of antagonism between us and the other 498 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,837 firms in those days which I think we've you know at this point like we're 499 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,957 more friendlier and they're not exactly shrinking ballots themselves so you know 500 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:32,717 they're also also also [laughter] also true. 501 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,557 >> They've risen to the occasion. Yes. 502 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,957 >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. >> I think I think we're past that. Maybe. 503 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,837 Maybe now. >> Yeah. I I think we're we're we're much 504 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,237 more user friendly now for sure in terms 505 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,837 of uh our VC our our many VC partners uh 506 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,517 that we have. 507 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,157 So then uh tell us you know one of the 508 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,517 the big pieces that came out was um when 509 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,837 Mark wrote software is eating the world 510 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,357 uh and how that came about was very 511 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,877 interesting because it was a really busy time for us. It was like what 2011 so it 512 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,597 was very I think we had just raised a second fund maybe 513 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,757 >> and the way it came about was entirely 514 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,117 random if you will. So at the time there was a guy um you know the economist has 515 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:19,197 these reporters and they sent them to new regions and new beats like for 25 516 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,237 years and they go from Hong Kong to Silicon Valley whatever. At the time 517 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,557 there was a guy called Martin Giles and he was covering 518 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,957 >> very nice guy. >> Yes. Very nice guy. Um great guy. And he 519 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,517 would cover um Silicon Valley who's 520 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,997 British. And every so often I forget what the cadence is. They do a special 521 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,597 report. And they were doing a special report on the state of tech and where it 522 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,077 was going. And we were sitting >> remember my first office was at this 523 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,837 office. It was I think it was next door. 524 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,317 That's right. >> It was like we the three of us were 525 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,357 sitting there and Martin is visiting and he's asking all these questions and Mark 526 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,917 was like well it's basically like software is eating the world and then he 527 00:28:56,000 --> 00:29:00,317 explains the whole thing and I'm like >> this is really interesting and I was 528 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,637 like we should write this down and Mark's like sure maybe later. And then I 529 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,157 placed it with this guy Ryan at the Wall Street Journal and he's like, "If I had 530 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:09,677 an operate like that, would you run it?" 531 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,317 And he's like, "Yeah, sure. I would run it." 532 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,597 >> And then Mark wrote it when when you 533 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,757 could schedule things [laughter] like that. And Mark wrote exactly one draft 534 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,397 and it's still that same draft. And I'm sure you're torturing yourself because 535 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,357 you would change all kinds of things this that and the other. And then just 536 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:31,277 for kicks to bookend that story when you wrote was it time to build? 537 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,997 >> It's time to build. >> Yeah. wrote, "It's time to build." Like, 538 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,357 you caved for a minute. So, like, all right, we'll place it. Maybe we'll place 539 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,557 it. And nobody took it. Nobody. 540 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,077 >> Oh, yeah. That's right. >> I called Ryan who has since gone on to 541 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,317 bigger and better things. I'm like, Ryan, >> can I ask you a hypothetical that thing 542 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,357 like if I like you've been at the journal and it's like, of course, like 543 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,677 it's a joke. That's not even a question. 544 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,957 >> But times have changed, so nobody ran it. 545 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,597 >> Good thing we had a big piece of we had a good audience at the time. No. And I I 546 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,277 think I forget I don't want to malign people but somebody said it's angry and 547 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,197 I'm like you know we're in a pandemic. 548 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,597 >> Yeah. Yeah. So this is >> and we don't we're wearing 549 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,637 >> 2020. Yeah. And that was the Yeah. The the whole point of it was just that what 550 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,517 was actually happening in the pandemic with literally the inability to get like 551 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,957 surgical gowns. >> Exactly. [snorts] >> For first responders was like the the 552 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:23,517 catalyst for it. Yeah. it read angry and I was like really 553 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,037 >> software is eating the world is probably 554 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,797 more famous but I'd say time to build is 555 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,477 more influential in that um 556 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,557 >> people read software is eating the world 557 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,197 and then they didn't do anything they were like wow that's very interesting 558 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,437 and then that was it but with time to 559 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,317 build like the number of people in 560 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,637 >> like Washington and entrepreneurial community and so forth that are like 561 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,557 >> yeah we're taking this this is the blueprint we're moving on it I mean in a 562 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,557 way like the whole like abundance movement on the Democratic party came off 563 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,277 >> which is a great development I think >> a great development yeah 564 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,477 >> but I think the I have a theory on why that is software is eating the world 565 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,477 it's like to our people our community duh 566 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:04,077 >> hello that's happening and they were all 567 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,077 building against it they didn't need to read the thing and the people who needed 568 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,597 to do something were going to get flattened by the software eating the 569 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:16,477 world movement and they didn't know what to do like how do you retool into a like 570 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,437 remember all the car companies that came to visit us right and you take them 571 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,357 through autonomous and does the brand even matter and whatever. It just did not 572 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,557 >> register. They they weren't going to become a software company. Therefore, 573 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,437 nobody nobody who needed to do something with it did. Right. 574 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,437 >> Because it's just rather difficult. 575 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,717 >> Yeah. Especially, you know, one of the very 576 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,277 interesting things uh that we've learned 577 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:41,197 as a firm is how unusual it is for a 578 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,397 company that's been around a long time 579 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:49,117 um and where the founders are no longer there to change anything. anything. 580 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,757 Yeah. >> Yeah. Even in like I mean it's been a 581 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,557 huge blessing for us in venture capital 582 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,277 and that many of the firms that were 583 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,837 extremely powerful when we started just never changed. 584 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,237 >> They're exactly as they were. Like it's 585 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,877 almost like frozen in time. It reminds me of if you've ever been to Havana in 586 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,957 Cuba, right? >> It it's frozen in time. It's all 1959. 587 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,757 Like the cars are 1959, the buildings, everything. It's like just frozen. And 588 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,837 uh you know whole industries freeze like 589 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,317 that. The auto industry for sure did. Uh 590 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,837 and you know it was 591 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,797 >> Elon you know Elon was came along for what how long when did he start Tesla? 592 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,197 Early 2000s and you know had been going and going and going and then like 593 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,757 >> when the car comes out and is awesome everybody is just like sitting there going 594 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,157 >> what do we do here? I mean, look, I just 595 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:46,637 saw this on X. I think like the layoff numbers from the German car companies, 596 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,957 my home country, >> like every six job in Germany is somehow 597 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,037 related to the auto industry. >> It's a disaster. 598 00:32:55,120 --> 00:33:00,237 >> Yeah. >> But they're not going like the a genius software engineer is not going to 599 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,357 they're going to want to work for Elon Musk. Like you can say about Elon Musk 600 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,077 whatever you want but like a 601 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,197 >> suave well manicured executive from the 602 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,997 car industry is like not really like an a talent magnet for software engineers 603 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,037 right so 604 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,757 >> and then uh you know one of the things 605 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,717 that happened early was I got a um 606 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,357 note from Harper Collins saying that I 607 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,317 should write a book. Yeah. And uh and you know we I did not have time to write 608 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,197 a book but you made it. >> Yeah. You thought well you thought it 609 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:34,397 was a good idea to write the book. Why 610 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,597 did you think it was a guy? I guess it 611 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,477 seemed one it seemed crazy because the 612 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,717 blog was doing so well. So like aren't 613 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:47,837 books pass a at least to us. I mean >> and then um 614 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:52,397 yeah and then we didn't have I didn't have time. So like 615 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,757 why did you think that made sense? I guess it wasn't something that VCs did 616 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,917 either, right? like I do think we needed to even out the 617 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,037 brand a little bit because like otherwise any entrepreneur with leverage 618 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,317 was going to go like well I want him to be on my board right and that was just 619 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,317 going to get successes worse with every other GP so that like we needed a plan 620 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:14,797 for everybody right and you were the other at at the time 621 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,837 >> I thought the book was good because I think >> andre other >> there is exactly 622 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,717 >> which is why you wanted to call it horitz andre I remember which uh 623 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,557 >> it does sound her And it's a cool sounding name. It sounds a little law 624 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:32,157 firmish though. And then you could never A16Z would like 625 00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:36,237 >> wouldn't work. >> H16N is not nearly as good. 626 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,997 >> It it is good the way it is. I do still think there is value in a book of like 627 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,717 having a definitive theory on something. 628 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,077 Okay. >> I think with all the blog posters and all the expos and all that, I think 629 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:50,237 there is value. People people read books. People consume consume books. 630 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,157 Long form podcast is sort of a a different version of the same flavor. 631 00:34:54,240 --> 00:34:57,277 But more importantly, I thought you had something to say. Y 632 00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,957 >> like the the actual theory of like how 633 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,277 one builds a company and like all the stuff that goes sideways. And as you 634 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,877 always said, >> most books like the whoever the guy was 635 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,357 from this and that, GE, whatever. They 636 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:16,157 were all kind of fancy resumes and victory labs. They weren't really 637 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,597 >> where you could learn something. and particularly for our audience that like 638 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,917 it's so rough and tumble to be in a startup and to be in the trenches and to 639 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,797 lose the deal and like not be able to raise the money and you have this 640 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,997 magical person walk out the door and all that kind of stuff. So having an honest 641 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,517 book that I think you I was expecting you to write I thought was really 642 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:35,837 valuable and then you know the little 643 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:41,037 hack that we had is you had written all the blog post right and so then it was 644 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,237 >> I have a little built-in audience >> right and then it was it's telling the 645 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,717 dramatic story of like what went down you know including with Felicia being 646 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,117 sick and all of that right like that then made the book but like you kind of 647 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,677 had the lessons in your head and like I 648 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,397 actually think that book like I like the 649 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,717 title I've been living by what you do is who you are forever. I like that title 650 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,237 better, but I think this is a more important book and it's way more kind of 651 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,677 usable for for people. >> It's much more broad-based. I think the 652 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,957 uh the what you do is who you are is 653 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,197 it's actually it's more useful for me. 654 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,357 Um and you know, when I talk to like Ted Sarandos or somebody like that, they're 655 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,117 like, "Oh yeah, that's a book I like." 656 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,877 But you have to run a very large 657 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,597 organization and you you have to have 658 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,477 gotten beyond the things hard thing 659 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,597 about hard things to start to think about okay how do you program the 660 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,957 culture of the whole organization and this kind of thing >> but I remember the Navy 661 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,837 >> too abstract >> wanting to wanting to buy the book the 662 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,517 hard thing about hard things right like I think people actually think it's much 663 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,197 more applicable than you might think 664 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,877 >> well oh no no it so it's very the hard 665 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,437 thing about hard things I would say in retrospect was very broadly applicable 666 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,597 like pastors bought it and 667 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,117 >> you know people you'd never think but 668 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,477 you know like to me everything the hard 669 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,277 thing about hard things is like easy 670 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,837 whereas I had to think a lot more about what you do is who you are it's just 671 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,597 like but you know it's one of those 672 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,117 things it's like you know how many 673 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,517 people need to learn uh algebra versus 674 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,557 quantum physics it's it's a it's a thing like that 675 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,917 >> yeah that's a that's a good point no I actually thought the book was valuable 676 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,557 to your brand. >> Yeah. >> And a good equalizer. And also I think 677 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,877 it raised the ambition like when when we 678 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,757 then hired new GPS >> it was just understood that they were 679 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,237 going to be out in the world and then it was a matter for me for my team to go 680 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,477 like okay so what are your thoughts? 681 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:44,397 Hopefully you have some right and then what are you good at? And then matching 682 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,477 the format. Not everybody should write a book right and not everybody should do 683 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,677 podcasts. Some people are good with decks and all of that, but like it was a 684 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,477 given that the bar is high. >> Well, that's, you know, that's such a 685 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:56,797 good point because one of the things 686 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,517 that we always get asked because Grace did such a nice job of of marketing the 687 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,997 book is well, like how do you market your book? 688 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,397 >> Well, go ahead. And I'm like, well, look, you can do there's like well-known 689 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,557 marketing ideas and so forth and you can do a lot of things and you can get 690 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,997 yourself even on like the bestseller list, 691 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,837 >> but then the book's going to disappear unless it's a great book. Like it has to 692 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:24,477 be good, right? Like that's the fundamental thing. And so like if you 693 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,077 don't write something that's good, if you're completely focused on like how 694 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,197 you promote it before you've written it, like that's probably about 695 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,077 >> that's backwards. Yeah, that is backwards. You have to actually believe 696 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,437 that you have an idea that that's worth 697 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:41,757 putting a book. Like a book has to stand the test of time. You know what I mean? 698 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:44,717 It has to be an actual thing versus a tweet or 699 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:49,837 >> Well, so many people in business take a blog post idea, a blog post length idea, 700 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:51,597 and they try and turn it into a book. 701 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,957 And um >> some things are just a snack. 702 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,797 >> Yeah, they're snacks and snacks should be snacks. Yeah, [laughter] >> exactly. 703 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:00,717 >> Yeah. know I thought the book served you 704 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,197 well and I think it it made it made the 705 00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:08,237 everybody in the firm go like oh >> like I don't know that Andrew would he 706 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,117 have thought automatically walking in here it's like well maybe I should write 707 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,797 a book. >> Yeah. >> Like and it just made it open up the 708 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,397 thinking I think for everybody else. 709 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,397 >> Yeah. Yeah. And you know a good thing 710 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,317 about you also learn a lot when you 711 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,757 write a book. So I I think everybody's 712 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,477 it set the standard of 713 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,877 you can't just have an idea here. you have to be able to really think it 714 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,877 through, be able to articulate it, be able to write it, be able to publish it. 715 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,477 >> And otherwise, like your idea didn't count. And that 716 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,597 >> that I think um has helped us a lot as an artist. 717 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:46,637 >> I mean, look at Katherine Bole. I mean, she came in with the pitch of like if I 718 00:39:46,720 --> 00:39:49,997 work here, I'm going to do American Dynamism and here's what that is. And 719 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,397 like she also happens to be a gifted 720 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:53,677 communicator 721 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,197 >> and now it's, you know, it was a deck. 722 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:02,317 Now it's a movement and a fund >> and like it's helping really change the 723 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:05,677 way people think about defense tech as all of a sudden allowed. 724 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,157 >> Remember back in the day Diane Green was outed from Google for like a very 725 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:14,077 innocent contract would look at pictures [laughter] satellites, right? And that 726 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,997 like and Katherine played a re is playing a really big role in turning 727 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,157 that around, right? And that's an idea. 728 00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:23,677 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure it is. 729 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:25,437 You know, I hadn't actually thought 730 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,557 about it that much, but it's a very 731 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,037 important part. It's how like marketing, 732 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,117 our original marketing ideas turned into 733 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,557 kind of a very important cultural point 734 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,157 >> uh of the firm, which is, you know, like this is how we work, this is how we 735 00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:42,637 think. >> I mean, sometimes it would it was so 736 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,397 overdone like a new person comes in, first thing they want to do is meet with 737 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,877 marketing. I'm >> like, do you know where you're sitting? 738 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,317 And then and then I was like I literally I've had people say like you should 739 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,677 really think about me like you should think about Mark Andre. 740 00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,357 >> And I was like okay what are your [laughter] thoughts? 741 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,437 >> I I know exactly who that was but I'm not going to say no no no and it's all 742 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,597 well intentioned but like you do you do 743 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,637 have to test the actual idea right? Like 744 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,277 is that a snack? Is it a book? Is it 745 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,757 just a conversation? >> Like they need to be calibrated properly 746 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,077 right and and sometimes young people who 747 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,157 are incredibly ambitious. That was me. 748 00:41:18,240 --> 00:41:23,117 Still is. Like you just want to go right for the win, but you need to make sure 749 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,237 you have the goods to do it. >> Yeah. Well, this this kind of gets into 750 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:30,797 a conversation Mark and I have been having, which is, you know, the 751 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:32,957 marketing of companies has changed so 752 00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,317 much uh because you're really now 753 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:40,717 marketing a person. And that's a lot what we did at the firm now because the 754 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,717 firm had our name. It was a natural. 755 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:44,717 >> Also, we don't have products. 756 00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,517 >> Yeah. And we we have products. We have people and ideas. That's it. 757 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,437 >> We could but that's extended now to >> Oh yeah. 758 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,917 >> You know, is it is it Tesla or is it Elon? Is it Palanteer? Is it Alex? You 759 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,877 know, like and >> the in order to be able to do that like 760 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:02,797 you can be an extremely accomplished 761 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,637 person who is not interesting. um like 762 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:10,477 those don't necessarily go together >> and that I think that's a little bit 763 00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,597 unfair from the press or like it creates 764 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:18,157 this perception that Silicon Valley is staffed entirely with weirdos, >> right? 765 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,157 >> They're more interesting to write about. 766 00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:21,757 >> Somebody who goes to work every day and 767 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,957 drives an Audi and is a good father and 768 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,677 drops kid off at school, that's all nice. Like I'll I'll pick on someone, 769 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,677 right? Like Dylan Field. Yeah. 770 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:33,997 >> Most amazing guy built an incredible 771 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,117 company. I hosted dinners with him. He's 772 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,837 just normal. Well adjusted. The weirdest thing about him is he did the Teal 773 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,237 Fellowship. >> Yeah. >> But like >> those don't get written up as much. The 774 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,637 weirdos like the weirder the better, right? Like and and it it's gotten to an 775 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,557 extreme where it's like this is actually not reflecting Silicon Valley. It's just 776 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:57,277 a the a slice of it. Well, it's an 777 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,597 interesting marketing conundrum though 778 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:05,357 because you can't >> market a company if you don't have a character, 779 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,237 >> right? >> Like like 780 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,877 >> no, you used to look there used to be 781 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,957 companies and it was fine where all you 782 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,077 do is you report your financial results, 783 00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:20,957 you announce your new products and that kind of started to end with Steve Jobs 784 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,037 because it was a show. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 785 00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:24,957 >> And he made you want a product. 786 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,237 >> That's right. And like it it became it's 787 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,077 almost like politics adjacent. Like you can't vote for a party. You're voting 788 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,077 for a person. Yeah. And if you have the 789 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,477 company but not a character or or a 790 00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,117 sense of character, it just doesn't 791 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,597 work. And then you know the the corporate ex accounts and all of that. 792 00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,437 Those are all fine and like but like at the end of the day it's the identity of 793 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,917 the person and do they actually sound like does the tweet sound like Mark? 794 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,717 Right? like does the LinkedIn post sound like DG or whatever it is, right? Like 795 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:58,957 you cannot disconnect it anymore, >> right? 796 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,037 >> And that places a premium on people who 797 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,997 are willing to play character or be 798 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,237 character. I'm not sure that's always 799 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,037 the healthiest thing for a company at 800 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,517 every in at every stage, right? Or in 801 00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,157 every situation like that there are some 802 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:18,797 downsides to it, but the upside beats the downside like 10 to one or whatever 803 00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,877 the right number is. Well, it it requires a lot of discipline, I think, 804 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,597 from the founder because you 805 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,397 >> it turns you into like this uh mini 806 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,157 celebrity. And so, as a mini celebrity, 807 00:44:32,240 --> 00:44:33,837 um 808 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,477 can you like be out there and not act 809 00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,517 like an actual celebrity because those 810 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,997 aren't great organizational dynamics? 811 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,557 Yeah. um just having been around uh you know many celebrities although 812 00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:50,077 >> and the thing is >> Nas notwithstanding he's a very regular 813 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,237 uh person and and that kind of thing. 814 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,957 >> Yeah, he's surprising though >> but he he's he's very surprising. He's 815 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,357 very unusual >> but also he has an amazing product. 816 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,477 >> Yeah, >> it's hard to argue. Uh so like being able to be like this interesting 817 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:04,237 character on the outside and then come 818 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,957 in and you know be well just be somebody 819 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:13,357 who you can have an actual conversation with where you can get information and 820 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:16,157 not be this >> thing that you put yourself on a 821 00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:19,277 pedestal to the point where people won't tell you anything and and that kind of 822 00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,037 stuff is very destructive in a company. 823 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,317 >> Yeah. I think I think there's some there's some downside along those lines. 824 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,397 And then the other part is like you 825 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,197 can't really fake that stuff. If if you 826 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,637 have a public persona and it's not real 827 00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,597 and it's all manicured, it does does not 828 00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:38,397 work. It it won't work over time, right? 829 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,597 So you kind of have to lean like this is 830 00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,917 what I always try to do is lean into like who is this person and what are 831 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,157 they good at that they can sustain over time. Like you make anybody do a TED 832 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,797 talk if you really really are hellbent on doing it. 833 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:57,037 >> But like that's not actual marketing campaign that that's not a personal 834 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,517 brand. You have to really figure out, okay, 835 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,797 >> who is this person? What are their dynamics? What are their talents that 836 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,797 they can actually be, not act, but like actually be, right? 837 00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,397 >> I think it's hard to actually be a character and a TED talk, 838 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,717 >> you know, like the people who do TED talks aren't characters and vice versa. 839 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,917 You've never done a TED talk? Like I've I've never done a TED talk. I think it's 840 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,237 hard to do both. Yeah. >> I've never watched a TED talk. 841 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:21,197 >> You've never watched a TED talk? 842 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,437 >> I've never watched a TED talk. Oh man, you're missing out on a very beautifully 843 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:29,197 packaged. It's almost like >> But that is my point. My point is that 844 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,397 is exactly my point. TED talks are these 845 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,637 very manicured 846 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:38,477 >> things that like work for a minute. But 847 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,237 like anybody who's seen so many TED talks is like this is all the same. It's 848 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,557 all the exact same plastic, right? Or maybe you think it's platinum, but it's 849 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:51,437 the exact same formulaic thing. That's not an actual brand. That's maybe an 850 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,157 event that if you really care about it, like some people really care about that 851 00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:56,557 but like that's not actually who you are. 852 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,677 >> They read they read to me as religious sermons [laughter] 853 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,317 >> and I I have an aversion to fake religions. 854 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,157 >> They're all they're all little morality. 855 00:47:04,240 --> 00:47:07,437 They're little morality stories. They've all they've all got a message >> and 856 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,717 >> it's like the very special episodes of TV shows of the 1970s. They're the very 857 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,917 special episodes where you like learn about >> very special happy days. 858 00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:15,277 >> You learn about drug addiction or Yeah. 859 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,637 Exactly. >> And the thing is I'm in marketing and I 860 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:22,717 find them saccharine. like they're just too they're just too perfect in a way, 861 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,397 right? And and and they train you like crazy. And then you know they're the 862 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:28,797 teams that peel off of TED and then they 863 00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,837 help executives be great and you can 864 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,157 just I've talked to them and I'm like 865 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:36,717 like you know you've been invited to 866 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:41,277 >> to podcast where that are produced that way and they literally are trying to 867 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,317 script what you're going to say and I'm like we don't do that 868 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,437 >> back specific format and that's why by the way that's why I'm saying that's why 869 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,317 I'm I'm riffing on a little bit is because like my my instincts are to the 870 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,957 exact opposite of that >> as you know which is like of the 871 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,717 authenticity and rawness. when you could do a TED talk. I think you'd be fine at 872 00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,917 it, but like it's actually not you and like therefore it wouldn't it wouldn't 873 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,877 acrude to the brand. >> He could not do a TED talk because in 874 00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,477 order to do a TED talk they have to review what you're going to say and they 875 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,597 have to edit it and there's no >> chance. 876 00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,957 >> No, what I'm saying is if he decided he wanted to if I edit something Mark 877 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,277 writes like I take one sentence [laughter] and I give him one word in it 878 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,277 and like and then that's that's as much as he likes to be edited. This is why I 879 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,077 find it so hilarious when you send around like when you used to do that 880 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,277 when you send around the blog post and then everybody is so eager to edit them 881 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,277 and I'm like this is such a waste of time. This is like 882 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,037 not you. It's like not you. So >> that actually reminds me of my favorite 883 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,837 thing that Larry David said. The rule on Seinfeld was no hugs and no lessons. 884 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:40,957 >> Exactly. That's right. That's right. 885 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:42,557 That's right. >> And they're very special after 886 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,637 >> and that's what made that that's what made that show so distinctive is they 887 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:47,757 never did that. They never they never there was never it was never Modlin or 888 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:51,917 Sakura. >> Never. >> Right. It was like almost unique in that way. Yeah. Yeah. 889 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,277 >> It's a very very good show. 890 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,997 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. It's kind of the opposite of Ted. 891 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,757 Yeah. And look, that is great. Like I'm not trying to malign it, but people like 892 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:04,397 it. It's it's very manufactured and I don't think that's an actual brand. As a 893 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:05,677 person, you can't be that brand. 894 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:07,997 >> Yeah. The thing that works well and you know, a lot of this just has to do with 895 00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,797 the shift in technological environ media environment, but the thing that works in 896 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:17,080 this media environment is much much more much more authenticity and >> transpority, 897 00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,877 right? So interesting. Yeah. >> Which is interesting because the old 898 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,037 world like our media training in the old 899 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:25,197 world was all like much is the opposite. 900 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:30,717 It's conformist um stand message uh >> discipline discipline discipline and 901 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,517 that's just out the window. And and the thing that I think what's interesting to 902 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,317 media and that's what media has to figure out is >> they used to set the tone 903 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,397 >> and now they're at the very end 904 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,077 >> at the very end of all the stuff that's 905 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,597 been said on Twitter or um Reddit or it 906 00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:50,077 eventually spills out and then media is like oh what is this thing comment on 907 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,597 the Rogan show >> but like it's it's at the very end and 908 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,357 like for me that must be total out of body experience where it's like wait 909 00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,437 >> like I was the I was the beginning right 910 00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,437 when you when you were to when you were 911 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,357 unveiling something, that's where you 912 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,877 would go, right? And now you can go any 913 00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:11,197 freaking place that like you have 50,000 choices, right? And then it gets enough 914 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,597 steam and then it gets reviewed by media almost, right? It's just like the order 915 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,837 has flipped completely. Yeah, it it makes it very tricky to speak to the 916 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,557 media because >> when they're on that end and they have 917 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:29,997 to turn you into news, >> um anything you you say can and will be 918 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,757 used against you, >> you know, it's a very Miranda type world. 919 00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,397 >> My new my new version my new version of this my the new test I think is 920 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,917 happening is what we might call the GPT test, which is okay, if if what somebody 921 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,717 says is in indistinguishable from chat GPT output, >> like not going to make it. 922 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,757 >> Yep. >> Right. Um and and then the more advanced 923 00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:52,907 version of the test is like is it indistinguishable from like chat GPT 3.5 924 00:50:52,990 --> 00:50:55,997 [laughter] >> right which is like not which is like 925 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,837 the earlier version that's not as good >> and the number of public figures in 926 00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:03,997 various domains who continue to speak in public or put out crafted you know 927 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,317 whatever and literally you're just like this is indistinguishable from what the 928 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:13,037 LM could do um or or by the way columnists people write you know columns for a living 929 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:17,437 >> like there's a lot of people who don't pass that test. Um and and so and I just 930 00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,637 say that of like there there's going to be a big big turnover there and then and 931 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:24,237 then and then it begs the important question like okay what does it take to 932 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,557 pass that test? Right. >> Right. Like how many >> while it's changing all the time. 933 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,637 >> Yeah. Also true. Right. Exactly. But like who who is actually I had this a 934 00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:35,357 version of this conversation with Tyler Cohen one time. So Tyler Cohen and his 935 00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:39,117 partner Alex have been blogging daily for over 20 years. Marshall Revolution 936 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,877 which is amazing. And they don't they do a great job 937 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,357 >> and they're leaders of like these you know intellectual movement and they're 938 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,157 incredibly important influential and like all these things and they're in all 939 00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:48,717 these rooms that they you know they they will say this like it's put them in all 940 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,437 these incredibly important rooms and >> and all these things and I was like wow 941 00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,237 it's worked so great for you guys. It's like why don't you know why don't more 942 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,797 people do this and and Tyler just like laughed and he's like Mark how many 943 00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:58,797 people have something to say every day. 944 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,317 Yeah, that's a lot of talking, [laughter] right? Like genuinely like 945 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,717 how many people have that and then you know every day for 20 years is like 946 00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,917 maybe the highest bar, but how many people have, you know, three interesting 947 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,757 things to say or one interesting thing to say? 948 00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,997 >> But this is what this is my beef with some of these platforms or actually it's 949 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:17,837 the humans. It's not the platforms. It's it's always the humans, right? We're like, 950 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,477 >> does every thought that you have, >> right, 951 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,117 >> need to go on X or wherever it needs to 952 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,677 go? I would beg to differ, but like a lot of people No, a lot of people would 953 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,077 go like, "Okay, it's a new day. I got to say something." 954 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:31,677 >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I'm like, I don't know. 955 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,757 >> Well, to me, the test Let me ask you this though. I would you agree that the 956 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,237 difference is if they have an interesting thought every day, that's one thing. 957 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:39,517 >> Fantastic. >> Right. Right. Right. 958 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,637 >> The more the marrier, >> right? Right. Right. But but yeah, most people don't. 959 00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:44,957 >> But like most people don't. And I sort of feel like 960 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,117 >> even the people every day don't always. 961 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:52,077 Yeah. >> They would be better served to like >> pop up when 962 00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:54,797 >> Yeah. when they have a thought or or contribute something to the 963 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,797 conversation. Yeah, that's >> I I don't know. I just don't think that 964 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,317 everybody has interesting things to say every day. 965 00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:03,917 >> If I look at X, I see proof. 966 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:06,477 >> Well, the reason I go through this is because my my theory at least is the 967 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,797 nature of leadership is change because of everything you you guys have 968 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,997 discussed, the nature of leadership is changing. And the the the lead that the 969 00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,597 the people who the leaders who have very the large number of interesting things 970 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:17,837 to say and know how to communicate it are going to do disproportionately well 971 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,037 in the years ahead. And the leaders who don't, even if they're professionally 972 00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:22,957 skilled, I think are going to have a harder and harder time and their 973 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,037 companies are going to have a harder and harder time because it's just the old 974 00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:26,797 the old methods are just not working as well anymore. 975 00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,557 >> No. Well, particularly on the um on the marketing front. 976 00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,597 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, like but 977 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,757 people are changing like it's been 978 00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,877 interesting to watch uh our friend uh 979 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,837 Mark Zuckerberg kind of change his public persona so much so fast. 980 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,077 >> So great. >> Yeah. I mean >> uh so he's kind of I mean running a 981 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:52,077 gigantic social media company you you would think he would figure it out but I 982 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,437 guess but it's still very difficult to do >> well and it actually mapped to an 983 00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,317 internal change right like he himself changed 984 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,517 >> right it wasn't like a synthetically generated message like it's every 985 00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,437 everything of like Mark Zuckerberg in public now is is 100% wholly authentic 986 00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:10,157 >> he used to try to calculate >> um 987 00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:13,677 what he was going to say through the lens of all his many many constituents 988 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:15,277 and now He's saying what he thinks. 989 00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:19,037 >> Yeah. People he was and as you know he was trained to do that. He received the 990 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:23,757 A+ grade version of that training from people who were world class at that 991 00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:25,917 >> and it worked for a while and then the environment 992 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,637 >> but I also think he whoever was advised like overdid it. I remember being in 993 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:34,557 your office and was like that man has the wrong beer somewhere. It's a scandal 994 00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,117 because it was so perfect. I was like chill out a little bit. Well, you know 995 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,517 what it was >> and then he did now that he's doing the 996 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,077 like this is me deal with it. It's working great. 997 00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,397 >> And again, the people who train people who train him are like super geniuses 998 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,117 and they were fantastic. But they they themselves were trained in what I would 999 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,997 describe as like 1980s, 1990s style politics. 1000 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,157 >> They came out politics in particular. 1001 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:55,517 >> They came out of a political background, 1002 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,757 right, which is an even more intense version of everything that we're talking 1003 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,317 about. >> Yeah. >> And so they got train they they got 1004 00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,597 trained the way politicians got trained in the 1990s, which was extremely uh 1005 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,597 scripted and controlled, >> right? Maximally so. Um and so and then 1006 00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,037 just the the as we've disc like just this massive shift in the environment 1007 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:14,157 since then has basically rendered I mean I mean you see this playing out 1008 00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:16,637 >> I [snorts] think he's done a great job >> all over the world right which is this 1009 00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:19,117 is also everything we're talking about is also playing out politically. Yes. 1010 00:55:19,200 --> 00:55:20,717 >> And maybe even more so politically. 1011 00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,197 >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And it's even like like the subtle 1012 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:27,917 things have been the most interesting to me. So he used to be known for like he's 1013 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,517 always wearing a hoodie which was the most conformous thing in the world in 1014 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:35,517 Silicon Valley, right? And now like he's got like the gold chains and this hair 1015 00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,517 all over the, you know, and and it's 1016 00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,477 kind of like he's he's expressing 1017 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,757 himself, you know, on all fronts. 1018 00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:44,957 Exactly what he looks like in private. 1019 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,117 Like it now now it all matches. It's been great to kind of see him flower 1020 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:50,957 like that and be able to like fully express himself. 1021 00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,877 >> Yeah. I think it's great something spectacular. 1022 00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,957 >> Still people are like, "Well, what's with the gold chains?" I'm like, 1023 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,157 >> he likes them. Yeah. >> Well, here's an executive. I know the 1024 00:56:00,240 --> 00:56:03,757 main one that he wears has a real it's important just with his faith. 1025 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,837 >> Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There's a guy who runs a ginormous 1026 00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,397 company that's in the spotlight all the time and like this is what you're 1027 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,717 picking on. It's like >> hello. 1028 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,517 >> Also true. >> But it's I I think when people from the 1029 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,637 old world see that it makes him very 1030 00:56:18,720 --> 00:56:20,637 uncomfortable. Yeah. Right. One of Okay. 1031 00:56:20,720 --> 00:56:25,917 One of the guys who was doing what we wanted him to is no longer he's off the 1032 00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,197 leash. >> He's not on the program. That's right. 1033 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:29,437 That's right. Yeah. Well, he's liberated. 1034 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:33,197 >> We go all the way back to when when what's his name? The found Dennis from 1035 00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,717 Foursquare, >> he got yelled at because he went um to a 1036 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:41,437 press meeting with a hoodie on like all the way at the beginning. [laughter] 1037 00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,917 >> That was I remember that. I remember that. Yeah. 1038 00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,797 >> He was like I think and he had a banana or something like that. It was like 1039 00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:50,557 apparently >> entirely [clears throat] unacceptable, >> right? 1040 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:52,797 >> It's almost makes it nostalgic. 1041 00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,717 >> Very interesting. >> So I think companies I mean look I think 1042 00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,597 all this stuff I'm view all this stuff is going to intensify. I I think every 1043 00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,157 successful company in the I think every successful company in the future is 1044 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:02,157 going to need this kind of personality. 1045 00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:04,237 >> They're gonna need somebody who can do this and it's it's a different 1046 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,637 leadership profile. >> Do you think it has to be the CEO? 1047 00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:09,117 >> I I think it's really hard for it not to be. 1048 00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:11,117 >> I I I mean maybe maybe it could be 1049 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,597 another founder. I think can do it. 1050 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:17,597 >> Yeah. Co-founder for sure if you're a consumer brand. Yeah. 1051 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,037 >> I think it's very difficult to not have a 1052 00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:26,397 >> a person like that. I think you know if you're less marketing like like if you 1053 00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:30,157 are like if the I mean there are historically businesses that are all 1054 00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,837 >> but I think if you're in a compet competitive situation and on the other 1055 00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:35,677 side there's somebody who's really good at it. 1056 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,957 >> Yeah. >> It still sucks. If you sell security stuff 1057 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,677 >> Palanteer is as enterprise you know government as it gets and 1058 00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,237 >> Oh yeah. No is like is killing it. 1059 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,357 >> He's perfect for that. >> Imagine being a competitor to Palunteer 1060 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,197 and not having an Alex right like >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even just the 1061 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,757 stock market valuation alone, like how can you possibly keep up? 1062 00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:58,317 >> Yeah. It's basically can you sell? And the way you're selling today is entirely 1063 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,517 different. >> Yeah. >> Right. Like it's not, you know, having 1064 00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:03,437 features and a Gartner report. It's just like 1065 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:05,917 >> I think it's great. I think it's I I I think it's I think it's leading to a 1066 00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,877 more honest world. Uh like more transparent, more authentic, 1067 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,917 >> more honest, more interesting things being discussed, more interesting issues 1068 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,157 getting surfaced, people actually getting to know each other. 1069 00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,837 >> Yeah. It's a much less sanitized world. 1070 00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,317 >> Yeah. That's right. That's right. And of course that that it's uncom it's 1071 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,277 uncomfortable because if you're used to if you're used to the the wall you know 1072 00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:23,917 the wall as they say the wald garden if you're used to a sanitized environment 1073 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,197 if you're used to Disneyland entering the real world is traumatic >> very traumatic 1074 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:30,157 >> but like we do live in the real world right and 1075 00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,237 >> and as always it's the transition that's 1076 00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:36,477 the toughest part it's going like oh this is all different now right and and 1077 00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:38,877 I think we're in a really big transition 1078 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,437 >> and the transition is transitioning it's sort of like 1079 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,157 >> that's right and we're still in the middle of it like it's not over yet 1080 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,437 >> yeah yeah know it's going to it's definitely going to keep moving Yeah. 1081 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,357 >> All right. Well, we're going to keep going. 1082 00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:50,877 >> Good. Awesome. Fantastic. Yes. 1083 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,997 >> Thank you. Thank you for joining us on the Mark Advent show. This has been a 1084 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,267 lot of fun. Thank you, too. Hope you enjoyed it. 1085 00:58:58,350 --> 00:59:00,370 [music]