1 00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:06,907 You've helped create some of the most incredible characters, stories, and 2 00:00:06,990 --> 00:00:10,547 open worlds in video game history. But when you grew up in 3 00:00:10,630 --> 00:00:14,467 the late '70s and '80s, open-world video games 4 00:00:14,550 --> 00:00:18,480 wasn't a thing. So you've credited literature and film 5 00:00:18,630 --> 00:00:23,507 as early inspiration. So let's talk about film first, if we can. 6 00:00:23,590 --> 00:00:24,027 - Sure. 7 00:00:24,110 --> 00:00:27,787 - What to you are some of the candidates for the greatest films of all time, 8 00:00:27,870 --> 00:00:31,847 maybe films that were highly influential on you? I mean, Godfather. 9 00:00:31,930 --> 00:00:34,706 - God, well, I think for me, probably Godfather II more than Godfather I, 10 00:00:34,790 --> 00:00:39,487 but I love both of them. But I love the divided story in 11 00:00:39,570 --> 00:00:42,910 Godfather II. And as a migrant, I used to live in Soho. 12 00:00:43,010 --> 00:00:46,687 I love the bits in Little Italy, and I love 13 00:00:46,770 --> 00:00:50,567 the sections in Sicily. I think and the bit, Ellis 14 00:00:50,650 --> 00:00:54,387 Island is just one of the best shots in all of cinema. 15 00:00:54,470 --> 00:00:58,327 When you see little Vito turning up in Ellis Island and you get that shot, it's 16 00:00:58,410 --> 00:01:02,247 amazing. It gives you a really good cinematic sense of what it must have been 17 00:01:02,330 --> 00:01:03,687 like to arrive in America. 18 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:06,947 - How much of the greatness of Godfather do you think is the 19 00:01:07,030 --> 00:01:10,967 writing? How much is the cinematography and how much is the acting? 20 00:01:11,050 --> 00:01:13,887 You got De Niro, you got young Pacino. 21 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:17,830 - Coppola started as a screenwriter, so I think he wrote, at least co-wrote 22 00:01:18,270 --> 00:01:20,265 the script. So it's almost like the writing, 23 00:01:20,348 --> 00:01:22,147 directing almost become the same thing. 24 00:01:22,230 --> 00:01:24,646 But it's one of those films, both of them are those films, 25 00:01:24,730 --> 00:01:29,467 which I was thinking about this idea of a perfect film where everything's good. 26 00:01:29,550 --> 00:01:33,407 Where the acting's seminal, where the writing's seminal, where the music is 27 00:01:33,490 --> 00:01:37,307 seminal, where the shots are so memorable, where the scenes you 28 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:40,887 know, define what you think about things. It's impossible to think about the 29 00:01:40,970 --> 00:01:42,867 mafia and not think about The Godfather. 30 00:01:42,950 --> 00:01:46,787 - What about the pacing? It is a bit slow. You have movies like 2001 31 00:01:46,870 --> 00:01:52,847 Space Odyssey, slow. - Yes. - It used to be, back in my day, it used to be slow. 32 00:01:52,930 --> 00:01:56,138 - Life got faster. Life just got, you know, 33 00:01:56,222 --> 00:01:59,327 as I think as we moved from the '70s into 34 00:01:59,410 --> 00:02:03,247 the '80s, into the '90s, people had seen so many films, 35 00:02:03,330 --> 00:02:06,827 they just started to edit films faster. And people understood cinematic 36 00:02:06,910 --> 00:02:10,807 storytelling so much that you could do things much quicker, 37 00:02:10,890 --> 00:02:14,507 you could show a look and just that meant you realized that person was 38 00:02:14,590 --> 00:02:18,087 gonna betray the other person. They just edited films much quicker. 39 00:02:18,170 --> 00:02:21,960 But I quite like the slowness. I think these days with modern, you know, 40 00:02:22,110 --> 00:02:25,627 high quality televisions, you don't have to necessarily watch these films in one 41 00:02:25,710 --> 00:02:26,367 sitting, 42 00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:28,045 particularly when you're rewatching them. So it doesn't bother me that they're long 43 00:02:28,128 --> 00:02:32,227 and slow. - Speaking of faster, life getting faster, I... 44 00:02:32,310 --> 00:02:35,679 I'm sure another influential movie was Goodfellas, Scorsese. 45 00:02:35,762 --> 00:02:40,207 That's faster, right? - Yes. - A mixture of crime and humor. 46 00:02:40,290 --> 00:02:44,107 - And almost like an open world game in some ways, in that it's this slice of 47 00:02:44,190 --> 00:02:47,399 life. You know, I think that probably changed cinema at the tail end of 48 00:02:47,483 --> 00:02:51,767 the '80s, changed cinema at the sort of tail end of the '80s, 49 00:02:51,850 --> 00:02:55,470 early '90s, more than any other film. And it's so 50 00:02:55,570 --> 00:02:59,427 iconic. In some ways I prefer Casino, but the invention 51 00:02:59,510 --> 00:03:02,787 is really in Goodfellas. I love the end of Casino, you know, the use of 52 00:03:02,870 --> 00:03:06,637 voiceover, the way you saw them being criminals and being 53 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,507 normal people, you know, it changed everything. The Sopranos is obviously 54 00:03:10,590 --> 00:03:12,287 completely inspired by Goodfellas. 55 00:03:12,370 --> 00:03:16,947 - Casino has, first of all, the character of Sharon Stone. I mean, everything. 56 00:03:17,030 --> 00:03:19,687 - The look, the clothes......The music. 57 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:23,597 - I would say one of the most memorable moments in film for me 58 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:28,247 is the meeting in the desert. I mean, just the drama building up to that between... 59 00:03:28,330 --> 00:03:29,067 - Dig another hole. 60 00:03:29,150 --> 00:03:32,827 - Yeah. The environment, the city, speaking of open world and creating a 61 00:03:32,910 --> 00:03:36,590 character from the city. It's one of the great Vegas films. 62 00:03:36,690 --> 00:03:39,987 - I think the great Vegas film. There are bits that I always... that I 63 00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:43,867 love. At the end, when everything's wrapping up, and on the one hand you 64 00:03:43,950 --> 00:03:47,747 see the Robert De Niro character, he's still good at making money, so 65 00:03:47,830 --> 00:03:51,395 they let him return to normal life. But then you get that brilliant scene when all 66 00:03:51,479 --> 00:03:55,667 of the, the mob bosses from back home, they're discussing 67 00:03:55,750 --> 00:03:59,607 all these people who may or may not be able to implicate them. And then there's 68 00:03:59,690 --> 00:04:03,490 that incredibly cold line where one of them, they're thinking about the old, 69 00:04:03,650 --> 00:04:06,353 you know, I think it's the casino manager, and one of them just goes, "Ah, 70 00:04:06,436 --> 00:04:07,447 the way I see it, why take a 71 00:04:07,530 --> 00:04:11,387 chance?" And then the next thing, he's just shot. The brutality of it all is just 72 00:04:11,470 --> 00:04:15,062 brilliant. - I don't know, I probably have to disagree with you on Vegas. 73 00:04:15,146 --> 00:04:16,287 There's at least some competitors. 74 00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:20,247 You got what, Nicolas Cage Leaving Las Vegas? I mean, falling in love with a 75 00:04:20,330 --> 00:04:25,027 prostitute. You've written some of the great crime stories ever. 76 00:04:25,110 --> 00:04:25,827 - Thank you. 77 00:04:25,910 --> 00:04:31,437 - And in some sense, there's love stories in there. And you've talked about- 78 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,250 ...being a bit of a romantic yourself. 79 00:04:35,650 --> 00:04:39,447 Appreciating the depth of love stories in literature at the 80 00:04:39,530 --> 00:04:43,130 very least. And there is a dark kind of love story between an 81 00:04:43,250 --> 00:04:45,807 alcoholic and a prostitute. He got an Oscar for that. 82 00:04:45,890 --> 00:04:46,667 - I think he did for that, didn't he? 83 00:04:46,750 --> 00:04:50,587 - Plus there's the caricature of the drug world of Fear and Loathing in 84 00:04:50,670 --> 00:04:52,447 Las Vegas. That's an interesting one. 85 00:04:52,530 --> 00:04:56,687 - I love the book so much. I was obsessed by it when I was about 17, 18. 86 00:04:56,770 --> 00:04:59,367 And I enjoyed the film, but I preferred the book. 87 00:04:59,450 --> 00:05:02,564 - Has a Hunter S. Thompson type of character ever made it into any of 88 00:05:02,648 --> 00:05:07,170 your stories? - No, but one of the things we're working on now, there's sort of 89 00:05:07,630 --> 00:05:11,247 an English version of Hunter S. Thompson if he was also a 90 00:05:11,330 --> 00:05:14,967 market gardener. I love that persona. But he's kind 91 00:05:15,050 --> 00:05:18,947 of... it's hard. If you make him American, it's hard for it not just to be Hunter 92 00:05:19,030 --> 00:05:21,087 S. Thompson. - Is this an American caper? 93 00:05:21,170 --> 00:05:24,867 - No, it's in this animated show we're developing in 94 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:27,433 this sort of comedy world we're working on called Absurdiverse, 95 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:29,437 and it's in one of the stories in that. 96 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:34,770 - What is Absurdiverse? - Absurdiverse is a comedy 97 00:05:35,550 --> 00:05:39,370 universe we're developing that will be an open-world video game 98 00:05:39,810 --> 00:05:43,650 and then some loosely adjacent stories that we're going to 99 00:05:44,150 --> 00:05:46,604 make as animated TV shows or possibly animated movies. 100 00:05:46,687 --> 00:05:51,887 We're still thinking that all through. And we're building the game up in San 101 00:05:51,970 --> 00:05:55,747 Rafael at the moment, and it's early days, but it's looking very 102 00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:59,567 exciting. And it's trying to be... like, trying to make a game that feels a 103 00:05:59,650 --> 00:06:02,227 a little bit like a living sitcom. 104 00:06:02,310 --> 00:06:06,467 - Is there some drama and tragedy at the edges, or is it pure comedy? 105 00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:13,107 - I hope it's got comedy, cynicism, heart, drama, and some amusing life lessons. 106 00:06:13,190 --> 00:06:17,247 Otherwise, you can't just have jokes for 40 hours, it won't work. 107 00:06:17,330 --> 00:06:19,207 - Okay, so comedy needs some darkness. 108 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:23,187 - Well, I think it needs story. One of my favorite comedies of this century 109 00:06:23,270 --> 00:06:26,947 is The Office because it was incredibly funny, but also because it had narrative 110 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:30,890 and heart underneath the cynicism. I think with narrative, you get a drive 111 00:06:31,030 --> 00:06:36,487 alongside jokes. - And there's going to be an open-world video game. 112 00:06:36,570 --> 00:06:41,677 - Yes. Yes. - When? - Two, three, four years. Still thinking that through. 113 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,647 - So, what's the process of getting from the idea to the end of a video game? 114 00:06:45,730 --> 00:06:48,427 Why does it take so long to get it right? 115 00:06:48,510 --> 00:06:51,933 - That's an interesting question. I think if you look at the scale at which they're 116 00:06:52,017 --> 00:06:52,850 built, 117 00:06:53,310 --> 00:06:57,110 you could argue it the other way, why is it so quick? I mean, you really are 118 00:06:57,450 --> 00:07:02,827 building, in one go, a world, a city, and 40 hours of entertainment cut through it. 119 00:07:02,910 --> 00:07:06,510 and 40 hours of entertainment cut through it. You know, these things are 120 00:07:06,650 --> 00:07:10,547 massive four-dimensional mosaics that are intensely complicated and have to work 121 00:07:10,630 --> 00:07:14,487 in lots of different ways. And I think that's us being kind of aggressive on 122 00:07:14,570 --> 00:07:17,737 the timeline. - We're taking a tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent, 123 00:07:17,820 --> 00:07:22,407 but I have to return to some films. Let me just list a few of my favorites. 124 00:07:22,490 --> 00:07:26,427 So first of all, you said you love great war books. 125 00:07:26,510 --> 00:07:28,067 - Yes. - and movies. - Yes. 126 00:07:28,150 --> 00:07:32,788 - So we have to throw in Platoon from Oliver Stone and Apocalypse Now, 127 00:07:32,871 --> 00:07:39,077 for me at least. - Of course. - There's more crime, fast-moving crime movies, 128 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,907 like Scarface. I also love True Romance. 129 00:07:41,990 --> 00:07:46,427 - I love True Romance. Possibly the best, one of the best scripts ever written. 130 00:07:46,510 --> 00:07:49,430 - Written, of course, by Quentin Tarantino. 131 00:07:49,530 --> 00:07:52,487 What do you love about True Romance? I think sometimes, depending on the 132 00:07:52,570 --> 00:07:56,427 day, depending on the bar and how much alcohol I've had, I will say 133 00:07:56,510 --> 00:07:58,927 True Romance is the best movie ever made. 134 00:07:59,010 --> 00:08:02,317 - Yeah, I mean, True Romance is super fun. Tony Scott was a really good director, 135 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,987 so it moves at a really good speed. It's funny, it's completely unbelievable, 136 00:08:06,070 --> 00:08:09,767 but you really care about the characters. It's the kind of, you know, this world 137 00:08:09,850 --> 00:08:13,727 that obviously doesn't exist, but you feel it does exist. The characters 138 00:08:13,810 --> 00:08:17,187 are larger than life. The dialogue is unbelievable. You could just sit and watch 139 00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:21,320 unbelievable. You could just sit and watch them talk all day long. And, you know, 140 00:08:21,510 --> 00:08:25,407 you just... it's amusing. You just want to live in that world. I was thinking about, 141 00:08:25,490 --> 00:08:29,290 like, what do you like about films? It's the idea to be in a world. You want 142 00:08:29,610 --> 00:08:31,294 to... they're not real. They're never real, 143 00:08:31,377 --> 00:08:33,767 but you want to be in these fake worlds that people have invented. 144 00:08:33,850 --> 00:08:37,467 - And I think you said that what makes a great world is having a large cast of 145 00:08:37,550 --> 00:08:41,347 characters. And I think that movie is a good example. I mean, you have Christopher 146 00:08:41,430 --> 00:08:45,347 Walken with the sort of legendary super racist discussion. 147 00:08:45,430 --> 00:08:48,547 - Yeah. Rant. - Rant. - Dennis Hopper is just sort of a dream dad. 148 00:08:48,630 --> 00:08:50,047 - Yeah. Dream dad. 149 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:53,847 And just that interaction is legendary. You got even Brad Pitt as a 150 00:08:53,930 --> 00:08:57,477 pothead on the couch. - Gary Oldman. 151 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:03,937 - Gary Oldman. - As a rasta. - Yeah, and you have... I mean, a real love story. 152 00:09:04,020 --> 00:09:08,387 Like, a real, genuine, pure love can survive in any context. 153 00:09:08,470 --> 00:09:11,187 - And it's just sweet. Their love story is very sweet in that film. 154 00:09:11,270 --> 00:09:15,320 - Yeah. - It's endearing. - The... Elvis is a character. It's kind of like a mini 155 00:09:15,810 --> 00:09:19,117 GTA type game. Some of the same beauty, the comedy, the love, the- 156 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,407 - Yeah, and it's all crossed with Play It Again, Sam. It sort of feels a bit like 157 00:09:22,490 --> 00:09:23,387 that with the Elvis character. 158 00:09:23,470 --> 00:09:26,707 - What about greatest war film? What would it be for you? 159 00:09:26,790 --> 00:09:30,717 - Greatest war film? If I'm feeling serious, it would be 160 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,777 a Russian film called Come and See. 161 00:09:32,860 --> 00:09:36,477 which is probably the most intense film ever made. And if I'm 162 00:09:36,560 --> 00:09:40,377 feeling slightly less serious, Apocalypse Now, and I would 163 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:44,397 always want to watch the original cut. I don't prefer the re-edits. I like the 164 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,397 original first release. I think it's tighter and slicker and works the best. 165 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,380 - Yeah, of course, Apocalypse Now is this hallucinatory journey into darkness, 166 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,777 I think, madness. - Yeah, but from your first- - Yeah 167 00:09:55,860 --> 00:09:59,317 - scene onwards, it's just got these amazing set piece after set piece 168 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:04,137 and, again, incredible characters, brilliant dialogue. 169 00:10:04,220 --> 00:10:09,160 - Some of the greatest films about war reveal that war is not what it seems, 170 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,137 and there's different ways of doing that. And you've talked about different books. 171 00:10:14,220 --> 00:10:18,877 The Thin Red Line is another book—...and movie that shows that. 172 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,310 - Yeah, yeah, and I watched the movie years before I read the book, 173 00:10:22,980 --> 00:10:24,680 and I didn't understand the movie. 174 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,460 And then I read the book, and I read a lot about the 175 00:10:29,570 --> 00:10:33,457 editing of the movie, and I understood why I didn't understand the movie, 176 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:36,556 and that's 'cause the movie makes no sense. It is beautifully shot, 177 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:37,357 and the music is 178 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,137 one of the best film scores of all time. But they edited two different 179 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:44,661 battle scenes into one battle in a way that they're spread apart by ages in 180 00:10:44,744 --> 00:10:48,009 the book to assemble... I think they filmed the book pretty much verbatim. 181 00:10:48,093 --> 00:10:48,997 It would've been as a 182 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,517 six-hour movie, then edited this impressionistic thing that's incredibly 183 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,497 beautiful but doesn't necessarily make narrative sense at the end of it. 184 00:10:56,580 --> 00:10:58,940 But it's still very beautiful, the film. 185 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,317 - And in terms of Westerns, what's the greatest? The Good, the Bad and the 186 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,857 Ugly, Unforgiven? Those are for me, maybe even Django 187 00:11:06,940 --> 00:11:09,127 Unchained. You've mentioned Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. 188 00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:12,637 - I think for me it's two films from, I think, pretty much the same year, Butch 189 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:17,597 Cassidy and The Wild Bunch. - I love Robert Redford. Rest in peace. 190 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:22,445 - That film, it's just impossible to imagine any buddy film without Butch 191 00:11:22,529 --> 00:11:26,917 Cassidy. - It's Paul Newman, Robert Redford, and Clint Eastwood for you, also? 192 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,117 Has that impacted your writing on Red Dead? 193 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,200 - I love Unforgiven, but the truth is 194 00:11:33,060 --> 00:11:36,877 with Red Dead, I'd seen a lot of Westerns as a kid. My dad watched lots of 195 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,817 Westerns. They were always on TV. You know, I felt I knew a 196 00:11:40,900 --> 00:11:44,670 lot, quite a bit about Westerns. And then, 197 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,407 you know, then I had to start thinking about writing one for work. 198 00:11:48,490 --> 00:11:50,686 And I deliberately did not binge on Westerns. 199 00:11:50,769 --> 00:11:52,440 I tried to watch no more Westerns 200 00:11:52,900 --> 00:11:56,777 and just think about what I liked about them, what I didn't like about 201 00:11:56,860 --> 00:12:00,797 them, what would be a take that would work today and would 202 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,800 work within the confines of a game. And I think Red Dead 203 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:08,600 1 was a slightly more traditional Western. And then having done that, 204 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:10,490 tried to take Red Dead 2 in a 205 00:12:11,340 --> 00:12:15,237 different direction so that it felt like a worthy successor. Didn't 206 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:16,920 just feel like more of the same.