WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:03.797 AI has happened so much faster than I thought it was going to by now that the 00:00:03.880 --> 00:00:07.917 need for something like world feels especially strong. Clearly the world is 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.597 getting close to very powerful AI, but I'm sure many of you have started to 00:00:11.680 --> 00:00:14.757 have an experience more and more where you're like, am I am I interacting with 00:00:14.840 --> 00:00:18.877 an AI or a person or how much of each and how do I know? I I had this like 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:23.077 weird experience recently where I I I realized that using like Reddit or 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.237 something like that, I couldn't tell anymore which comments were real and 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:30.157 which were written by AI. I would love to be able to use a product like Reddit 00:00:30.240 --> 00:00:32.157 and really know who the people are. 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:36.637 World is now on the way to being a real human network for the internet. We can 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:39.717 increasingly tell we're seeing this now and now with what you all and others are 00:00:39.800 --> 00:00:43.677 building. People are really going to need this. Pantera Capital joined World 00:00:43.760 --> 00:00:47.437 for its lift-off event last week. We believe World is at an inflection point 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:51.597 in its story as people begin to truly appreciate how important this technology 00:00:51.680 --> 00:00:55.237 is. We had the chance to sit down with Sam Altman for a conversation about the 00:00:55.320 --> 00:00:59.637 intersection of blockchain and AI. Later in the video, Mason Nystrom and I sit 00:00:59.720 --> 00:01:03.717 down to discuss some of the compelling use cases that led Pantera to invest in 00:01:03.800 --> 00:01:07.797 World and why we believe proof of human is so important. Clearly the world is 00:01:07.880 --> 00:01:11.517 getting close to very powerful AI and this is doing a lot of wonderful things. 00:01:11.600 --> 00:01:15.717 We're going to see this play out in all of the ways we dreamed, many we didn't. 00:01:15.800 --> 00:01:19.837 Um but we are also heading to a world now where 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:24.597 there's going to be more stuff generated by AI than by humans. 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:28.597 And I think there's a ton of reason for optimism for this new world. Clearly we 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:32.517 care more about humans than we care about AI, but I'm sure many of you have 00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:36.277 started to have an experience more and more uh where you're like, am I am I 00:01:36.360 --> 00:01:38.517 interacting with an AI or a person or 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:40.957 how much of each and how do I know? And 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.477 we are so hardwired to care about people 00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:49.637 uh that I'm not afraid for the future as long as we can tell. 00:01:49.720 --> 00:01:53.277 So years ago we started thinking about what 00:01:53.360 --> 00:01:57.037 we would need to have proof of human in a world with advanced AI in it. What it 00:01:57.120 --> 00:01:58.917 was going to be like when the internet 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:02.197 had way more AI uh agents, you know, 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:04.557 writing comments or making posts or on 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:07.637 social networks or interacting on 00:02:07.720 --> 00:02:10.877 commerce uh flows or whatever else 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:15.517 um than than it did people. And we really wanted to make sure that the 00:02:15.600 --> 00:02:19.917 world continue to be about people, for people, that people were still the primary 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:22.557 thing that we all care about, which we knew was going to happen no matter what 00:02:22.640 --> 00:02:25.517 else happened with AI. We are so hardwired for that. We just wanted to 00:02:25.600 --> 00:02:27.117 figure out how to make it easier. 00:02:27.200 --> 00:02:30.037 Uh Alex and I and the team started thinking about ideas for how this could 00:02:30.120 --> 00:02:34.717 happen uh and then AI has continued to go like this. 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:39.517 And World is now on the way to being a real 00:02:39.600 --> 00:02:43.237 human network for the internet. I don't think we know yet exactly all the ways 00:02:43.320 --> 00:02:46.397 that's going to be important, how that's going to work, what people are going to 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:49.597 do with that, but we can increasingly tell we're seeing this now and now with 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:53.237 what you all and others are building. Um people are really going to need this and 00:02:53.320 --> 00:02:57.357 really going to need to do this in a privacy-preserving way. So World ID is 00:02:57.440 --> 00:03:02.077 our effort at that and it's been amazing to see the progress over the last year 00:03:02.160 --> 00:03:05.357 as people have adopted this and figured out how to integrate this into a new 00:03:05.440 --> 00:03:07.917 world of AI. 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:12.917 And our goal is to make World ID be this new proof of human for the internet. 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:14.877 Sam, thanks for joining us. >> Absolutely. 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.677 >> We're excited to be investors in World and think you guys are doing really 00:03:17.760 --> 00:03:21.237 great things. There's always been a lot of advancements in AI over the last few 00:03:21.320 --> 00:03:24.557 years and that has crowded out a little bit all the fundamental developments we 00:03:24.640 --> 00:03:29.277 are seeing elsewhere. How is your view of how blockchain has evolved and how 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:32.917 maybe that intersects with AI? I don't view it as crowding out. I think AI will 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:36.397 like lift everything up. Uh I don't know what all the most important pieces will 00:03:36.480 --> 00:03:39.277 be, but clearly agents are going to need to be able to pay each other and move 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.197 money around in all sorts of ways and that's one of the things I'm personally 00:03:42.280 --> 00:03:45.117 most excited about. Obviously everything we're doing at World. 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:48.997 What are the use cases that you are most excited about World ID, like seeing 00:03:49.080 --> 00:03:51.557 World ID being used in and like where could it be the most impactful? I mean 00:03:51.640 --> 00:03:53.797 you mentioned Reddit, that's a great example. 00:03:53.880 --> 00:03:58.437 I am most excited to see the kind of creative energy unfurl. I d- I don't 00:03:58.520 --> 00:04:03.197 know like I have my own set list of things like that. I mentioned one. Uh 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:08.277 clearly there's a lot of stuff around payments and how access to AI compute 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:12.477 may go, but I'm most excited to just see what the creative world thinks of here. 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:17.277 I feel like this concept of identity has become much more clear now than it was 00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:20.597 certainly if many years ago when you guys first ideated this. How has that 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:23.397 view of like what like what World ID is trying to accomplish change or maybe 00:04:23.480 --> 00:04:27.637 hasn't changed? I think a lot of the core ideas have stayed exactly the same, 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:31.957 but the exact ways in which this is going to be 00:04:32.040 --> 00:04:34.237 important, like you know, eight years ago we didn't know language models were 00:04:34.320 --> 00:04:37.717 going to be the thing for example. We knew that somehow you want to be able to 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:41.477 identify people um and that there was going to be a lot of AI in the world and 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:44.237 a lot of people in the world, but the the specifics of like where you're going 00:04:44.320 --> 00:04:48.357 to most feel it breaking in the current system, that wasn't so obvious. Like how 00:04:48.440 --> 00:04:51.077 fast do you think World ID can really catch on? It does feel like it is the 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.557 moment for something like identity. A lot of people are talking about it. Just 00:04:54.640 --> 00:04:57.397 how fast and how large of a scale do you think this could be? 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.397 I think the scale can be absolutely huge. How fast? You know, I I assume it 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.237 will continue to scale over a number of years to get to like a real significant 00:05:05.320 --> 00:05:08.517 fraction of the internet. Um these things always almost always take longer 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.037 than you think, but the the trajectory of it seems really good. 00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:13.477 >> Well, we're really excited to be part of this. We're really excited about what 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.997 we're trying to accomplish at World and so thank you for for the time and the 00:05:16.080 --> 00:05:20.080 work. Really happy we could talk. Yeah, thanks, Sam. 00:05:20.440 --> 00:05:24.437 We've heard a lot about the builder perspective of World, but I think it'd 00:05:24.520 --> 00:05:27.037 be great to touch on the investor perspective. 00:05:27.120 --> 00:05:29.837 Uh Pantera, we are investors in World. 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:34.157 Uh maybe frame up why we're excited about World and you know, what led what 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:38.317 catalyzed that initial investment. Well, I think let's start big picture and and 00:05:38.400 --> 00:05:41.797 and think about what the problem really is, problem state really is. 00:05:41.880 --> 00:05:45.157 We are rapidly entering a world where there's going to be infinite 00:05:45.240 --> 00:05:48.757 AI-generated content, infinite AI identities in a world that is 00:05:48.840 --> 00:05:51.557 increasingly digital. And in that world 00:05:51.640 --> 00:05:56.597 we will want to know what is truly human or not. And the only way to do that is 00:05:56.680 --> 00:05:58.197 with some sort of 00:05:58.280 --> 00:06:00.957 cryptographic cryptographic secure, 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:04.997 verifiable, censorship-resistant layer 00:06:05.080 --> 00:06:08.597 called and proof proof of human and it turns out that blockchain's actually a 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.117 really good way to to do that. Uh and so that's why proof of human exists and 00:06:12.200 --> 00:06:17.277 that's why World exists and um if you know, this sounded kind of crazy a few 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:20.197 years ago when they I mean when they started eight years ago, it was truly 00:06:20.280 --> 00:06:24.477 crazy. Like no one could really see that happening, but Sam Altman had the vision 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:29.437 that he saw what OpenAI was probably building towards and that actually 00:06:29.520 --> 00:06:33.157 proof of human was really necessary as a complementary technology to that. Right. 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:36.797 AI is this technology of abundance as you mentioned and World provides this 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:40.397 element of scarcity to actually verify human identity, this this idea of proof 00:06:40.480 --> 00:06:43.517 of personhood. I think it's maybe uh 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:47.757 sometimes hard to understand like how many ways that can impact the world. Uh 00:06:47.840 --> 00:06:51.917 talk about some of the use cases that really shows like the scale of how 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.277 something like proof of personhood can be useful. 00:06:54.360 --> 00:06:59.157 So I'm a uh consumer internet tech investor by training and so the the 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.397 biggest TAM that everyone's always talking about is advertising. All right, 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:04.637 advertising was driven tremendous growth 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:09.677 out of Google, Facebook, now Meta and now, you know, Amazon and even OpenAI 00:07:09.760 --> 00:07:12.677 really that's that's what's going to drive a lot of growth. Uh because you 00:07:12.760 --> 00:07:15.077 know, advertising is effectively in many 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:18.197 ways you can think of it as 20% of GDP. 00:07:18.280 --> 00:07:21.957 Uh retailers or you know, businesses are willing to spend up to 20% of revenue to 00:07:22.040 --> 00:07:25.157 get customers. So that's advertising. Uh today it's about a you know, the 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:27.757 measurable advertising, digital advertising a half trillion dollar 00:07:27.840 --> 00:07:31.997 industry. And when I think about what you know, what the details of what 00:07:32.080 --> 00:07:35.797 advertisers buy is they buy impressions, right? They're trying to get impressions 00:07:35.880 --> 00:07:39.197 that are valuable that hopefully convert into some action they care about, which 00:07:39.280 --> 00:07:43.517 is you know, purchasing something. And um advertisers will pay will they pay a 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:47.237 lot for better targeting. And so you can imagine a world where if there's 00:07:47.320 --> 00:07:51.197 infinite AI bots crawling your website, like you don't 00:07:51.280 --> 00:07:53.877 want to pay for an impression that's going to a bot. You want to pay for an 00:07:53.960 --> 00:07:58.317 impression that's actually viewed by a human. And so you can imagine a CPM, you 00:07:58.400 --> 00:08:02.037 know, CPMs are something like 15, 20 bucks on the open web. 00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.197 I don't know, probably could be 30 bucks, 40 bucks we knew it could be 50 00:08:05.280 --> 00:08:09.157 bucks, right? And so you you immediately realize that wow, like proof of human 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.437 could be applied towards one of the largest industries, this half trillion 00:08:12.520 --> 00:08:16.077 dollar industry and maybe it's 5, 10% capture of that. You know, there are 00:08:16.160 --> 00:08:19.397 other use cases that are uh that haven't historically been 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:21.717 monetized, but may become new use cases. 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:25.997 You know, if you think about it from uh from dating apps, right? There the 00:08:26.080 --> 00:08:30.357 what there was a dating app today that dating app called match.com, which is 00:08:30.440 --> 00:08:34.157 the largest runner runner of dating apps. Um they announced last year their 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:36.757 first partnership with OpenAI around Tinder. 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:40.957 Uh and uh in order so that, you know, kids can't get catfished, right? And that's 00:08:41.040 --> 00:08:43.717 you know, it's like kind of funny, haha, but actually it's a really serious 00:08:43.800 --> 00:08:47.397 issue. And um it's actually really valuable especially because people pay 00:08:47.480 --> 00:08:51.197 on these dating apps to meet other people and so why why not pay to make 00:08:51.280 --> 00:08:54.437 sure you're meeting a real human. Uh other use cases like government 00:08:54.520 --> 00:08:57.957 services, you can imagine, you know, in the future most of our government 00:08:58.040 --> 00:09:00.877 services are probably going to be digital. That's probably even how we get 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:06.237 distributed uh you know, social security or other insurance benefits. And they 00:09:06.320 --> 00:09:09.317 need to be able to verify that they're not getting their their their not 00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:11.997 getting the government's not being scammed and delivered to real verifiable 00:09:12.080 --> 00:09:16.917 humans. And so there are just so many surface areas that this primitive um 00:09:17.000 --> 00:09:20.517 clearly addresses, but also potentially opens up. Right. And this primitive also 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:24.877 has the potential to evolve. When we think about what makes you a digital 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:28.797 human today, it's maybe your username, it's your email, it's your phone number, 00:09:28.880 --> 00:09:33.357 maybe like your government ID. But if you have this actual, you know, verified 00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.597 human identity, you can start to tie it 00:09:35.680 --> 00:09:38.797 to other credentials. And so maybe as 00:09:38.880 --> 00:09:42.637 you think of kind of the the grandest framing and scale, this can can be, you 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:46.717 know, a proof of person for for the world, uh but that can expand to other 00:09:46.800 --> 00:09:50.517 types of credentials or ways that, you know, we think of ourselves as human. 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:53.957 Oh, completely. I think uh the 00:09:54.040 --> 00:09:57.877 uh this this concept of identity is just becoming more and more important and 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.797 there are many ways to layer on different types of identity, right? And 00:10:00.880 --> 00:10:05.477 so, Proof of Humanity is the is is is a great substrate on which you can apply 00:10:05.560 --> 00:10:08.677 other forms of verification or licensing. Like, you will want to know 00:10:08.760 --> 00:10:11.917 that I have a driver's license, maybe, but maybe you can append that to your 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:15.077 your Proof of Humanity. You will want to know that you're you know, some some 00:10:15.160 --> 00:10:17.797 employers will want to know that you're educated in XYZ place. Maybe you can 00:10:17.880 --> 00:10:21.517 append that credential to your Proof of Humanity. That way you know that you 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.077 know, this human is it there is a real human, he's authentic that he's 00:10:25.160 --> 00:10:27.917 authentic and he that he indeed went to these schools. And you can verify that 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:33.317 with, you know, with the school. And and so, uh there there just there there 00:10:33.400 --> 00:10:36.757 clearly a lot of ways that we've thought about that that we've taken identity for 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:38.397 granted in the physical world, right? 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.117 Because we we see people, we we we speak 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:45.597 to them in person. As we move more digital, this concept of identity and 00:10:45.680 --> 00:10:48.877 the value of a digital identity is only going to increase. Right. And same as we 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:52.477 move towards a world where we're using agents on a more daily basis, 00:10:52.560 --> 00:10:55.157 the idea that there's actually even a human behind that agent becomes 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:57.797 increasingly valuable. >> That's right. And by the way, that's 00:10:57.880 --> 00:11:01.077 this not to stop agent of commerce in any way. It's In fact, it really 00:11:01.160 --> 00:11:04.037 accelerates it because this way you know 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:08.677 that, you know, an an agent is truly being is tied to an authenticated human 00:11:08.760 --> 00:11:11.597 and know that, you know, that is something that Well, well, there are 00:11:11.680 --> 00:11:14.397 some cases where you're okay with bots hanging around, but there are some cases 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.717 where you want to know there's a human in the loop and that a human is 00:11:16.800 --> 00:11:20.397 directing the agent to do something. You can You can do that. Right. And maybe 00:11:20.480 --> 00:11:22.477 the last thing to talk about is scale. 00:11:22.560 --> 00:11:24.997 So, World is being used by uh or it has 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:30.037 18 million verified humans today. How do you think of the potential scale this 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.157 type of human network can get to and on what timeline? 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:35.517 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, there are 8 billion people in the world and, you 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.677 know, about 6 billion of them are online in some form of fashion. You know, 00:11:38.760 --> 00:11:43.077 something like 4 billion of them have a smartphone. And so, the the immediately 00:11:43.160 --> 00:11:46.397 addressable TAM is is the 4 billion people in the world that have access to 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.317 a smartphone. Um I think you could see a 00:11:49.400 --> 00:11:53.517 world where, you know, today it's it's around 20 million users, so it's early 00:11:53.600 --> 00:11:56.997 days, but we could really scale that scale to billions of people over time. 00:11:57.080 --> 00:12:00.917 And you can see why it'd be valuable for each person, you know, on the order of 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.997 five, 10 bucks a person in value a year 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:05.597 is maybe attached to this ID. This could 00:12:05.680 --> 00:12:10.597 become a $50 free cash flow protocol because of how valuable because of the 00:12:10.680 --> 00:12:14.717 revenue that I can generate. And that is a very, very valuable system. Yeah, 00:12:14.800 --> 00:12:18.677 absolutely. We're going to find out very quickly how the 00:12:18.760 --> 00:12:23.357 value of a human is going to accrue. Oh, I just think we're the time is now. 00:12:23.440 --> 00:12:26.597 Like, we are such an inflection point in the recognition that we need digital 00:12:26.680 --> 00:12:30.477 identity and digital solutions. I mean, you're seeing every AI leader talk about 00:12:30.560 --> 00:12:34.797 it. And today on stage, we saw all these major enterprises come out and announce 00:12:34.880 --> 00:12:37.197 partnerships starting with Tinder, 00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:41.997 DocuSign, Zoom, Okta, Vercel. All these companies realize they want to integrate 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.837 with World ID. So, we're seeing adoption come to life now. Cosmo, thank you for 00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:50.600 highlighting the investment case for World. Thanks for having me.