1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,797 AI has happened so much faster than I thought it was going to by now that the 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,917 need for something like world feels especially strong. Clearly the world is 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,597 getting close to very powerful AI, but I'm sure many of you have started to 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:14,757 have an experience more and more where you're like, am I am I interacting with 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,877 an AI or a person or how much of each and how do I know? I I had this like 6 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:23,077 weird experience recently where I I I realized that using like Reddit or 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,237 something like that, I couldn't tell anymore which comments were real and 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,157 which were written by AI. I would love to be able to use a product like Reddit 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,157 and really know who the people are. 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:36,637 World is now on the way to being a real human network for the internet. We can 11 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,717 increasingly tell we're seeing this now and now with what you all and others are 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,677 building. People are really going to need this. Pantera Capital joined World 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,437 for its lift-off event last week. We believe World is at an inflection point 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,597 in its story as people begin to truly appreciate how important this technology 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,237 is. We had the chance to sit down with Sam Altman for a conversation about the 16 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,637 intersection of blockchain and AI. Later in the video, Mason Nystrom and I sit 17 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,717 down to discuss some of the compelling use cases that led Pantera to invest in 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,797 World and why we believe proof of human is so important. Clearly the world is 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,517 getting close to very powerful AI and this is doing a lot of wonderful things. 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,717 We're going to see this play out in all of the ways we dreamed, many we didn't. 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,837 Um but we are also heading to a world now where 22 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:24,597 there's going to be more stuff generated by AI than by humans. 23 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,597 And I think there's a ton of reason for optimism for this new world. Clearly we 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,517 care more about humans than we care about AI, but I'm sure many of you have 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,277 started to have an experience more and more uh where you're like, am I am I 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,517 interacting with an AI or a person or 27 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,957 how much of each and how do I know? And 28 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,477 we are so hardwired to care about people 29 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,637 uh that I'm not afraid for the future as long as we can tell. 30 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,277 So years ago we started thinking about what 31 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,037 we would need to have proof of human in a world with advanced AI in it. What it 32 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,917 was going to be like when the internet 33 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,197 had way more AI uh agents, you know, 34 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,557 writing comments or making posts or on 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,637 social networks or interacting on 36 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,877 commerce uh flows or whatever else 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:15,517 um than than it did people. And we really wanted to make sure that the 38 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,917 world continue to be about people, for people, that people were still the primary 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,557 thing that we all care about, which we knew was going to happen no matter what 40 00:02:22,640 --> 00:02:25,517 else happened with AI. We are so hardwired for that. We just wanted to 41 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,117 figure out how to make it easier. 42 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,037 Uh Alex and I and the team started thinking about ideas for how this could 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:34,717 happen uh and then AI has continued to go like this. 44 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:39,517 And World is now on the way to being a real 45 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,237 human network for the internet. I don't think we know yet exactly all the ways 46 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,397 that's going to be important, how that's going to work, what people are going to 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,597 do with that, but we can increasingly tell we're seeing this now and now with 48 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,237 what you all and others are building. Um people are really going to need this and 49 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,357 really going to need to do this in a privacy-preserving way. So World ID is 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:02,077 our effort at that and it's been amazing to see the progress over the last year 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,357 as people have adopted this and figured out how to integrate this into a new 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,917 world of AI. 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,917 And our goal is to make World ID be this new proof of human for the internet. 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:14,877 Sam, thanks for joining us. >> Absolutely. 55 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:17,677 >> We're excited to be investors in World and think you guys are doing really 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,237 great things. There's always been a lot of advancements in AI over the last few 57 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:24,557 years and that has crowded out a little bit all the fundamental developments we 58 00:03:24,640 --> 00:03:29,277 are seeing elsewhere. How is your view of how blockchain has evolved and how 59 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,917 maybe that intersects with AI? I don't view it as crowding out. I think AI will 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,397 like lift everything up. Uh I don't know what all the most important pieces will 61 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,277 be, but clearly agents are going to need to be able to pay each other and move 62 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:42,197 money around in all sorts of ways and that's one of the things I'm personally 63 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,117 most excited about. Obviously everything we're doing at World. 64 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,997 What are the use cases that you are most excited about World ID, like seeing 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,557 World ID being used in and like where could it be the most impactful? I mean 66 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,797 you mentioned Reddit, that's a great example. 67 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,437 I am most excited to see the kind of creative energy unfurl. I d- I don't 68 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:03,197 know like I have my own set list of things like that. I mentioned one. Uh 69 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:08,277 clearly there's a lot of stuff around payments and how access to AI compute 70 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,477 may go, but I'm most excited to just see what the creative world thinks of here. 71 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:17,277 I feel like this concept of identity has become much more clear now than it was 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,597 certainly if many years ago when you guys first ideated this. How has that 73 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,397 view of like what like what World ID is trying to accomplish change or maybe 74 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,637 hasn't changed? I think a lot of the core ideas have stayed exactly the same, 75 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,957 but the exact ways in which this is going to be 76 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,237 important, like you know, eight years ago we didn't know language models were 77 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:37,717 going to be the thing for example. We knew that somehow you want to be able to 78 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,477 identify people um and that there was going to be a lot of AI in the world and 79 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,237 a lot of people in the world, but the the specifics of like where you're going 80 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,357 to most feel it breaking in the current system, that wasn't so obvious. Like how 81 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:51,077 fast do you think World ID can really catch on? It does feel like it is the 82 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,557 moment for something like identity. A lot of people are talking about it. Just 83 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,397 how fast and how large of a scale do you think this could be? 84 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:01,397 I think the scale can be absolutely huge. How fast? You know, I I assume it 85 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,237 will continue to scale over a number of years to get to like a real significant 86 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,517 fraction of the internet. Um these things always almost always take longer 87 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,037 than you think, but the the trajectory of it seems really good. 88 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,477 >> Well, we're really excited to be part of this. We're really excited about what 89 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,997 we're trying to accomplish at World and so thank you for for the time and the 90 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,080 work. Really happy we could talk. Yeah, thanks, Sam. 91 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,437 We've heard a lot about the builder perspective of World, but I think it'd 92 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,037 be great to touch on the investor perspective. 93 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,837 Uh Pantera, we are investors in World. 94 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:34,157 Uh maybe frame up why we're excited about World and you know, what led what 95 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:38,317 catalyzed that initial investment. Well, I think let's start big picture and and 96 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,797 and think about what the problem really is, problem state really is. 97 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,157 We are rapidly entering a world where there's going to be infinite 98 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,757 AI-generated content, infinite AI identities in a world that is 99 00:05:48,840 --> 00:05:51,557 increasingly digital. And in that world 100 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,597 we will want to know what is truly human or not. And the only way to do that is 101 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,197 with some sort of 102 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,957 cryptographic cryptographic secure, 103 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,997 verifiable, censorship-resistant layer 104 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,597 called and proof proof of human and it turns out that blockchain's actually a 105 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,117 really good way to to do that. Uh and so that's why proof of human exists and 106 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:17,277 that's why World exists and um if you know, this sounded kind of crazy a few 107 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,197 years ago when they I mean when they started eight years ago, it was truly 108 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:24,477 crazy. Like no one could really see that happening, but Sam Altman had the vision 109 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,437 that he saw what OpenAI was probably building towards and that actually 110 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,157 proof of human was really necessary as a complementary technology to that. Right. 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,797 AI is this technology of abundance as you mentioned and World provides this 112 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,397 element of scarcity to actually verify human identity, this this idea of proof 113 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,517 of personhood. I think it's maybe uh 114 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,757 sometimes hard to understand like how many ways that can impact the world. Uh 115 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:51,917 talk about some of the use cases that really shows like the scale of how 116 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:54,277 something like proof of personhood can be useful. 117 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:59,157 So I'm a uh consumer internet tech investor by training and so the the 118 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:02,397 biggest TAM that everyone's always talking about is advertising. All right, 119 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,637 advertising was driven tremendous growth 120 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,677 out of Google, Facebook, now Meta and now, you know, Amazon and even OpenAI 121 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,677 really that's that's what's going to drive a lot of growth. Uh because you 122 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:15,077 know, advertising is effectively in many 123 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,197 ways you can think of it as 20% of GDP. 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,957 Uh retailers or you know, businesses are willing to spend up to 20% of revenue to 125 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,157 get customers. So that's advertising. Uh today it's about a you know, the 126 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,757 measurable advertising, digital advertising a half trillion dollar 127 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:31,997 industry. And when I think about what you know, what the details of what 128 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,797 advertisers buy is they buy impressions, right? They're trying to get impressions 129 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,197 that are valuable that hopefully convert into some action they care about, which 130 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,517 is you know, purchasing something. And um advertisers will pay will they pay a 131 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,237 lot for better targeting. And so you can imagine a world where if there's 132 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:51,197 infinite AI bots crawling your website, like you don't 133 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:53,877 want to pay for an impression that's going to a bot. You want to pay for an 134 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:58,317 impression that's actually viewed by a human. And so you can imagine a CPM, you 135 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,037 know, CPMs are something like 15, 20 bucks on the open web. 136 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,197 I don't know, probably could be 30 bucks, 40 bucks we knew it could be 50 137 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,157 bucks, right? And so you you immediately realize that wow, like proof of human 138 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,437 could be applied towards one of the largest industries, this half trillion 139 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,077 dollar industry and maybe it's 5, 10% capture of that. You know, there are 140 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,397 other use cases that are uh that haven't historically been 141 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,717 monetized, but may become new use cases. 142 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,997 You know, if you think about it from uh from dating apps, right? There the 143 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,357 what there was a dating app today that dating app called match.com, which is 144 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,157 the largest runner runner of dating apps. Um they announced last year their 145 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,757 first partnership with OpenAI around Tinder. 146 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,957 Uh and uh in order so that, you know, kids can't get catfished, right? And that's 147 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,717 you know, it's like kind of funny, haha, but actually it's a really serious 148 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,397 issue. And um it's actually really valuable especially because people pay 149 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:51,197 on these dating apps to meet other people and so why why not pay to make 150 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,437 sure you're meeting a real human. Uh other use cases like government 151 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,957 services, you can imagine, you know, in the future most of our government 152 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,877 services are probably going to be digital. That's probably even how we get 153 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,237 distributed uh you know, social security or other insurance benefits. And they 154 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,317 need to be able to verify that they're not getting their their their not 155 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,997 getting the government's not being scammed and delivered to real verifiable 156 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:16,917 humans. And so there are just so many surface areas that this primitive um 157 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,517 clearly addresses, but also potentially opens up. Right. And this primitive also 158 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,877 has the potential to evolve. When we think about what makes you a digital 159 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,797 human today, it's maybe your username, it's your email, it's your phone number, 160 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,357 maybe like your government ID. But if you have this actual, you know, verified 161 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,597 human identity, you can start to tie it 162 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:38,797 to other credentials. And so maybe as 163 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,637 you think of kind of the the grandest framing and scale, this can can be, you 164 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,717 know, a proof of person for for the world, uh but that can expand to other 165 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,517 types of credentials or ways that, you know, we think of ourselves as human. 166 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,957 Oh, completely. I think uh the 167 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,877 uh this this concept of identity is just becoming more and more important and 168 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,797 there are many ways to layer on different types of identity, right? And 169 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:05,477 so, Proof of Humanity is the is is is a great substrate on which you can apply 170 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,677 other forms of verification or licensing. Like, you will want to know 171 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,917 that I have a driver's license, maybe, but maybe you can append that to your 172 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,077 your Proof of Humanity. You will want to know that you're you know, some some 173 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,797 employers will want to know that you're educated in XYZ place. Maybe you can 174 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,517 append that credential to your Proof of Humanity. That way you know that you 175 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,077 know, this human is it there is a real human, he's authentic that he's 176 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,917 authentic and he that he indeed went to these schools. And you can verify that 177 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:33,317 with, you know, with the school. And and so, uh there there just there there 178 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,757 clearly a lot of ways that we've thought about that that we've taken identity for 179 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,397 granted in the physical world, right? 180 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,117 Because we we see people, we we we speak 181 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:45,597 to them in person. As we move more digital, this concept of identity and 182 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:48,877 the value of a digital identity is only going to increase. Right. And same as we 183 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,477 move towards a world where we're using agents on a more daily basis, 184 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:55,157 the idea that there's actually even a human behind that agent becomes 185 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,797 increasingly valuable. >> That's right. And by the way, that's 186 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,077 this not to stop agent of commerce in any way. It's In fact, it really 187 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,037 accelerates it because this way you know 188 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:08,677 that, you know, an an agent is truly being is tied to an authenticated human 189 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,597 and know that, you know, that is something that Well, well, there are 190 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,397 some cases where you're okay with bots hanging around, but there are some cases 191 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:16,717 where you want to know there's a human in the loop and that a human is 192 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,397 directing the agent to do something. You can You can do that. Right. And maybe 193 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,477 the last thing to talk about is scale. 194 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:24,997 So, World is being used by uh or it has 195 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:30,037 18 million verified humans today. How do you think of the potential scale this 196 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,157 type of human network can get to and on what timeline? 197 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,517 Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, there are 8 billion people in the world and, you 198 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,677 know, about 6 billion of them are online in some form of fashion. You know, 199 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,077 something like 4 billion of them have a smartphone. And so, the the immediately 200 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,397 addressable TAM is is the 4 billion people in the world that have access to 201 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,317 a smartphone. Um I think you could see a 202 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:53,517 world where, you know, today it's it's around 20 million users, so it's early 203 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,997 days, but we could really scale that scale to billions of people over time. 204 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,917 And you can see why it'd be valuable for each person, you know, on the order of 205 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,997 five, 10 bucks a person in value a year 206 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,597 is maybe attached to this ID. This could 207 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:10,597 become a $50 free cash flow protocol because of how valuable because of the 208 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:14,717 revenue that I can generate. And that is a very, very valuable system. Yeah, 209 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,677 absolutely. We're going to find out very quickly how the 210 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,357 value of a human is going to accrue. Oh, I just think we're the time is now. 211 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,597 Like, we are such an inflection point in the recognition that we need digital 212 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:30,477 identity and digital solutions. I mean, you're seeing every AI leader talk about 213 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,797 it. And today on stage, we saw all these major enterprises come out and announce 214 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:37,197 partnerships starting with Tinder, 215 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,997 DocuSign, Zoom, Okta, Vercel. All these companies realize they want to integrate 216 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,837 with World ID. So, we're seeing adoption come to life now. Cosmo, thank you for 217 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,600 highlighting the investment case for World. Thanks for having me.