WEBVTT 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.357 LA in a lot of ways is is sort of you you could describe it as like it's the 00:00:03.440 --> 00:00:04.557 ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar archetypal American 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:07.917 city. Here's the larger significance of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or my view 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:11.677 of it, which is it captures a time and place that was absolutely critical to 00:00:11.760 --> 00:00:12.957 the evolution of modern America. 00:00:13.040 --> 00:00:17.197 >> The reaction from the audience is extreme laughter. You are laughing 00:00:17.280 --> 00:00:22.077 during the most violent sequence for 20 minutes. 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:25.997 >> Well, uh excited to have the Modern the Situation crew back for another episode 00:00:26.080 --> 00:00:30.397 on movies. Uh Mark, thanks for joining again. Yes. Excited. 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.917 >> So, we want to go deeper into some of our in some of our favorite movies. 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:38.077 Mark, I know from watching movies with you that one of your genres you enjoy is 00:00:38.160 --> 00:00:41.437 movies about Hollywood. And so, we wanted to start with Once Upon a Time in 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:44.637 Hollywood. Why don't you talk about what's so remarkable about that or why 00:00:44.720 --> 00:00:46.877 you wanted to talk about it? >> The reason I movies about Hollywood, I 00:00:46.960 --> 00:00:49.197 mean, one is they tend to be very entertaining because of course the 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:51.837 people who make movies about Hollywood are from Hollywood and they they know 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:55.437 where all the bodies are buried. Um, and they tend to put them all in in the 00:00:55.520 --> 00:00:59.597 movies. Um, and so they're, you know, all run spectacular Hollywood movies. So 00:00:59.680 --> 00:01:02.877 for people who haven't seen, I would recommend Mahal and Drive. Um, it's one 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:05.517 of Eric's favorites. Um, and [laughter] 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:09.997 >> nightmares run it >> and, uh, and then The Player, um, which 00:01:10.080 --> 00:01:12.157 also is an alltime alltime one there. 00:01:12.240 --> 00:01:14.157 You know, there's there's a bunch of, of course, you know, famous ones like 00:01:14.240 --> 00:01:18.157 Sunset Boulevard, but, you know, the the iconic, you know, clearly the the the 00:01:18.240 --> 00:01:21.197 iconic Hollywood movie, you know, now is is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, you 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:24.237 know, by by Quentyn Tarantino. Um, and 00:01:24.320 --> 00:01:28.877 so, uh, the the reason I like Hollywood movies is because like, you know, there 00:01:28.960 --> 00:01:31.757 are a handful of cities that have a claim to be like the ultimate American 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:35.197 city. Um, and you know, New York City is one of those. You know, I think you 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:39.277 know, San Francisco in some ways, you know, where we are is. Uh, but LA and 00:01:39.360 --> 00:01:43.357 Las Vegas also put on the list. But, by the way, for Las Vegas, see Bugsy talk 00:01:43.440 --> 00:01:45.197 about that another time. But, um, that's 00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:49.517 the iconic Vegas movie. Um but uh LA in 00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:52.717 a lot of ways is is sort of you you could describe it as like it's the ar 00:01:52.800 --> 00:01:57.517 archetypal American city and and literally it's a um there's a great book 00:01:57.600 --> 00:02:00.717 we can we'll put put in the notes called thinking big where it goes actually the 00:02:00.800 --> 00:02:03.517 creation of the city of Los Angeles and basically like Los Angeles you could 00:02:03.600 --> 00:02:06.637 argue is the ultimate American city because it was the ultimate fake it 00:02:06.720 --> 00:02:11.517 until you make it uh thing like it was the theos of cities um and so and and 00:02:11.600 --> 00:02:16.317 and very specifically like it was desert like there was absolutely nothing uh in 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:19.437 LA And then um you know literally it was like a land development deal by a bunch 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:22.797 of wealthy families in the in the in the late 1800s. And they they literally 00:02:22.880 --> 00:02:26.077 placed newspaper ads in eastern newspapers. You know this is you know 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:29.117 this is before you know photography made it into newspapers. And so like you know 00:02:29.200 --> 00:02:31.517 when there was like a a picture of something in a newspaper it' be a 00:02:31.600 --> 00:02:35.597 drawing. Um, and so they they would uh they would uh they would they would list 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.397 land plots for sale in Los Angeles and they would have like line drawings of 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:41.117 like you know orchards and like you know beautiful everything's green and palm 00:02:41.200 --> 00:02:43.997 trees and then you know people would like buy the land move across country 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.517 and discover that it was just like blasted out desert um and then you know 00:02:47.600 --> 00:02:50.397 they they famously created you know they created the city they carved it carved 00:02:50.480 --> 00:02:54.637 it out of the desert and um and then you know they they famously um you know it's 00:02:54.720 --> 00:02:57.757 a famous saga of how they went to get the water you know which which turned 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:59.197 into you know another great another 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.837 great LA movie uh you know um uh 00:03:01.920 --> 00:03:06.477 Chinatown. Um, and you know, it as as you'd expect, you know, Hollywood kind 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:09.037 of goes for the, you know, kind of goes for a certain interpretation of history. 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:11.997 And so it, you know, sort of painted in retrospect as like a purely evil 00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:15.197 activity, but um, you know, there's actually, you know, there's actually 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.597 like a very kind of straightforward reading, which is like this is what was 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.117 actually required to create a city. Um, and it was it wasn't as black and white 00:03:21.200 --> 00:03:24.237 as as as sort of a you know, the Hollywood history has it. It was more 00:03:24.320 --> 00:03:27.677 complex story, but still, you know, very very interesting, amazing story. And, 00:03:27.760 --> 00:03:30.477 you know, cities like what Los Angeles are created every day. So, you know, 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.637 that's a pretty big deal. Um, so anyway, like movies about LA, I think it with 00:03:34.720 --> 00:03:37.757 when when they're when they're when when they reach the level of capital A art, 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:40.957 you know, they they become movies about America. Um, and so it's like a great, 00:03:41.040 --> 00:03:45.117 you know, it's like a great test bed um or a great subject, you know, or a great 00:03:45.200 --> 00:03:48.157 lens through which to look at look at, you know, the history of America. And 00:03:48.240 --> 00:03:51.997 Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is, I would say, one one of the top movies u 00:03:52.080 --> 00:03:56.557 in that along that theme. Um, let me start by saying if if anybody watching 00:03:56.640 --> 00:03:59.597 this hasn't seen Once Upon Time in Hollywood, pause the podcast 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:04.477 immediately. Um, go watch the movie >> and then come back because I would just 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:09.117 we going to spoil the on it. [laughter] Um, and it's tremendously fun to watch. 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:11.517 If you haven't if you haven't if you haven't read about it, by the way, I'd 00:04:11.600 --> 00:04:13.917 also say like it's a tremendously entertaining movie. Like it's one of the 00:04:14.000 --> 00:04:15.517 most entertaining Ponfor Pond movies. 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:18.397 You know, it's like infinitely rewatchable. You know, the the cast is 00:04:18.480 --> 00:04:22.237 ridiculous. Um, you know, every frame of the thing is amazing. Um, so it's also a 00:04:22.320 --> 00:04:26.237 very fun movie. But um so okay so here here's the larger significance of once 00:04:26.320 --> 00:04:28.637 upon a time time at Hollywood or my view 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:33.277 of it which is um it it it captures a time and place um that was absolutely 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:37.277 critical to the evolution of modern America um in um and I think Katherine 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:40.957 you'll remind me but I think of the year was it 60 was it 69 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.317 >> 69 yeah >> 69 yeah 69 and so to to put this in 00:04:44.400 --> 00:04:47.437 context and the movie you know kind of goes through this but it the movie 00:04:47.520 --> 00:04:49.597 doesn't explain all the cultural backstory it shows you what happened but 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:52.317 it does explain the backtory so I'll just go through the backtory so you know 00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:55.037 basically like what we now consider to be the kind of the cultural revolution 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.797 of the 1960s. You know, really started, you know, probably in like around 1964 00:04:58.880 --> 00:05:02.477 with the Berkeley free speech movement and then kind of, you know, sort of, you 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:05.677 know, kind of expanded or metastasized to include, you know, the the sort of 00:05:05.760 --> 00:05:08.957 hippie movements and then, you know, the sort of birth of like modern rock and 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.357 roll and the rise of the counterculture. 00:05:11.440 --> 00:05:14.077 Um, and, you know, all of a sudden everybody's, you know, has long hair and 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.797 they've got beads and they're, you know, they're wearing, you know, suede, uh, 00:05:16.880 --> 00:05:19.517 you know, jackets and they're, you know, wearing they're not washing their 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.357 Levis's. um and you know sort of that old counterculture. And so there was 00:05:23.440 --> 00:05:27.837 this like just like incredible explosion of um you know this when the baby 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.957 boomers were you know you know coming of age as as as basically high school and 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:36.157 college kids this incredible explosion of art uh culture creativity uh social 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:39.597 innovation you know the the birth of you know the commutes you know the the you 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:43.277 know the entire hippie movement and then of course this is also when world when 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:44.877 the Vietnam war was ramping up and so 00:05:44.960 --> 00:05:47.117 this was you know the the ramp up in um 00:05:47.200 --> 00:05:52.477 you know in uh in conscription of uh you know people you know American kids being 00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:56.077 off to to to Vietnam but you know kind of you know say non-volunteers and so 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:58.717 the you know the kind of anti-war movement kicked in the campus the 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:03.837 college protest kicked in um and like the entire thing was like you know and 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:08.237 we kind of remember it as like this like incredibly like sort of spontaneous and 00:06:08.320 --> 00:06:11.517 you know largely positive explosion of kind of you know breaking out of the 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:16.237 staltified cultural norms of the 1940s 1950s you know the creation of kind of 00:06:16.320 --> 00:06:19.837 the modern kind of liberated American society by the way obviously also right 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:23.597 alongside that you know the civil rights movement and feminism and gay rights and 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:26.637 you know kind of all you know kind of the the whole explosion of of of sort of 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.797 modern modern morality through that period. Um and anyway from from like if 00:06:30.880 --> 00:06:33.837 you read the histories of the time basically from 64 to 69 it was just 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:36.797 basically this like just glorious wonderful thing with like absolutely no 00:06:36.880 --> 00:06:39.837 downside like you know these kids that were like rioting on their college 00:06:39.920 --> 00:06:42.877 campuses or protesting in the streets or like you know getting stoned all day or 00:06:42.960 --> 00:06:45.757 you know having their whole hippie thing or moving to communes and going back to 00:06:45.840 --> 00:06:48.877 the earth like they had they had discovered a far superior way to live, 00:06:48.960 --> 00:06:52.077 right? They they had discovered a far superior way to like coexist with nature 00:06:52.160 --> 00:06:55.357 and to be like to fight against the man and to fight against you know evil 00:06:55.440 --> 00:06:58.397 corporations and you know you know fight for the environment to fight for the 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.357 planet fight for peace and the whole thing and so it was this it was this 00:07:01.440 --> 00:07:05.357 like incredible kind of wave of of positivity and look you know the a very 00:07:05.440 --> 00:07:06.557 good argument that there was a lot too. 00:07:06.640 --> 00:07:09.357 You know a lot a lot of people do believe that and then um you know and 00:07:09.440 --> 00:07:12.557 then look it was like a time of great cultural creativity that you know led to 00:07:12.640 --> 00:07:16.637 enormous amounts of like amazing art that we still have today. Um and so that 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:19.117 you know there there's a lot to like about it. And then and then basically 00:07:19.200 --> 00:07:22.557 what happened is in 1969 is it sort of came that the sort of positivity came to 00:07:22.640 --> 00:07:27.277 a screeching halt. Um and sort of the movement you know basically like you 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:31.197 know turned um you know very much the dark side and you know that sort of 00:07:31.280 --> 00:07:33.277 began the long slide into the sort of 00:07:33.360 --> 00:07:36.797 1970s. Um and that that slide was 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:41.037 basically a slide into you know variously among other things you know it 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.797 was a slide into like you know drugs you know going you know very bad drug 00:07:44.880 --> 00:07:49.277 overdoses you know the shift from sort of soft drugs to hard drugs um you know 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:53.117 a lot of people who participated in the the the sort of this cult sort of 00:07:53.200 --> 00:07:56.317 cultural movement in 60s ended up like dying. Well, we'll talk we'll talk about 00:07:56.400 --> 00:07:58.957 the death later on because you know the movie directly directly hits that. But 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:01.997 like there's just an extraordinary amount of death that followed you know 00:08:02.080 --> 00:08:05.917 degradation and then you know it it uh you know turned into you know the sexual 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:09.277 liberation it turns out has dark sides and you know maybe it isn't so great for 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.037 everybody and specifically maybe it isn't so great for women. um you know 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:16.797 it's like at least in some ways um and then you know and then look you know in 00:08:16.880 --> 00:08:19.997 the 70s it was like you know Vietnam went very bad and then the energy crisis 00:08:20.080 --> 00:08:23.117 and economic recession and then inflation and you know just you know 00:08:23.200 --> 00:08:26.797 this very kind of you know bitter divisive you know politics um you know 00:08:26.880 --> 00:08:29.757 in a lot of ways you know the sort of the the beginning of the political kind 00:08:29.840 --> 00:08:33.037 of dynamic that we see playing out today and so so in the 70s kind of things went 00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:37.117 really bad and then and then you know the you know the book ending movie uh uh 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:40.237 once upon a time is the movie sort of about that pivot point I'll talk about 00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:43.277 that and then you know boogie nights is maybe the movie on the other side of 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:46.877 that, right? Which is like, you know, once the culture is kind of sliding down 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.317 the hill into chaos and and madness and disease of death, you know, you know, 00:08:50.400 --> 00:08:53.117 kind of boogie nice captures that on the other side, but for the purpose of 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:57.197 today's discussion, we can focus on on on 1969. And so if you read the history 00:08:57.280 --> 00:09:01.037 of time, basically what happened was it was the Charles Manson murders uh 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:04.157 specifically in Los Angeles and then sort of on behalf of America, it was the 00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:06.877 Manson murders that basically were the turning point. It's the the Manson 00:09:06.960 --> 00:09:09.757 murders are the thing that people point to and they kind of say, "Oh, that was 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.157 the moment when we all kind of realized, 00:09:12.240 --> 00:09:14.957 oh u like there's a dark side of 00:09:15.040 --> 00:09:17.357 this whole thing and like, oh my god, 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:20.637 here we go." Um, and so and and so let's 00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:24.637 talk about that at length. Um, let me just uh close off this this intro 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:26.877 introductory part though with kind of the most amazing thing about the movie 00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:30.797 that I found, which is, you know, if you know the history of that period, you 00:09:30.880 --> 00:09:33.517 know about the I mean, the Manson murders were super famous at the time. 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:35.677 you know, they're, you know, they're still famous in American culture. Kind 00:09:35.760 --> 00:09:37.997 of everybody knows that there was this guy Charles Mansion that had this death 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.357 cult. He was able to get these kids to like go out and kill random people. Um, 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:43.517 and you know, there's still like all these, you know, questions like how the 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:46.077 hell did he did he do that? Um, right. 00:09:46.160 --> 00:09:48.877 And so, uh, everybody knows that he was kind of intertwined with Hollywood and 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.997 intertwined with the the movie industry and the music industry and and like he 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:54.957 he was part of that whole thing. Um and 00:09:55.040 --> 00:09:57.117 so uh you know everybody kind kind of 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:02.077 kind of knows that but I think that what is um oh and then specifically for for 00:10:02.160 --> 00:10:04.877 people who know anything about that there sort of famously the Manson 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.397 murders are also known as the Sharon Tate murders uh because there was this 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:10.237 like incredibly you know vivaceious 00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.797 attractive bubbly you know enthusiastic 00:10:12.880 --> 00:10:17.517 young blonde actress named Sharon Tate um who at the time famously was was 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:20.157 actually married to Roman Palansky who was you know one of the leading you know 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:23.357 kind of new you know Hollywood movie directors of that time and they were is 00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:27.117 how basically this this new Hollywood glamour power couple um and then Sharon 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:29.597 Tate and among other people you know Sharon Tate was was one of the people 00:10:29.680 --> 00:10:32.877 murdered it. So Quentyn Tarantino comes out, you know, when he first announces 00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:35.357 the movie comes out and he says, you know, Quentino Quinton Tarantino is 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.197 going to make the movie about the Charles Manson murders, right? And if 00:10:39.280 --> 00:10:42.477 you've seen, you know, any other Tarantino movie like Pulp Fiction, for 00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:45.997 example, you're just like, "Oh my god, you know, this is going to be a like 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.997 this is going to be horrible." like like like the Mansa murders are bad enough, 00:10:50.080 --> 00:10:52.717 but like you know turning them into like 00:10:52.800 --> 00:10:55.757 a you know Tarantino style you know mass 00:10:55.840 --> 00:11:00.237 slaughter violence you know reservoir dogs you know just like blood and guts 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.437 you know uh exploit you know basically super high exploitation movie as he had 00:11:03.520 --> 00:11:06.957 done in the past u just like it was a horror show and I was actually I was 00:11:07.040 --> 00:11:09.757 actually personally worried about it cuz my my wife got all excited to to to see 00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:12.877 the movie uh cuz you know she you know because it's going to star Leo the 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:15.437 Cabrio and Brett Kit and it's going to be about Hollywood and it's about 00:11:15.520 --> 00:11:18.157 fashion and you know all this you know design and all this creativity and she's 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:20.797 like, "We got to go see this movie." And I'm like, I'm like, "We can't go see the 00:11:20.880 --> 00:11:24.877 movie because you are going to be so traumatized by what he puts on screen, 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:27.757 but like you're never going to want to ever see a movie ever again and you're 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:30.077 going to hold it against me for the rest of my life, but it didn't prevent you 00:11:30.160 --> 00:11:32.397 from seeing this movie cuz it's obviously just going to be a complete 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.677 horror show. Like, it's just going to be a disaster." And actually Sharon Tate's 00:11:35.760 --> 00:11:38.957 family actually came out and and basically said when this movie is first 00:11:39.040 --> 00:11:41.597 announced, basically said like, "Wait a minute, hold on. like you know we don't 00:11:41.680 --> 00:11:45.197 want the memory of our you know of our you know of our of our family member you 00:11:45.280 --> 00:11:48.797 know who you know we we still love you know many decades later you know kind of 00:11:48.880 --> 00:11:51.437 you know turned into basically fodder for you know basically Hollywood 00:11:51.520 --> 00:11:54.477 exploitation um and then there was this like amazing thing that happened when 00:11:54.560 --> 00:11:58.077 nobody knew anything about the movie which is uh Tarotino at least the way 00:11:58.160 --> 00:12:01.357 story is recorded Tarotino actually let I think it was Sharon Tate's it was 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.357 either sister and maybe sister or something like that read read the script 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:09.517 uh and immediately um the family did a 180 um and they came right out and they 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.117 said we completely approved >> [laughter] >> thrilled that he's faking him. And I 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:16.957 remember at the time reading that and I was like, what the hell? Like [laughter] 00:12:17.040 --> 00:12:21.197 >> how how is it that he could possibly get the that that the tape family of all 00:12:21.280 --> 00:12:24.237 people on board with putting this on screen? And of course, you know, that 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:27.437 that that leads to kind of that, you know, the movie sort of turns into a 00:12:27.520 --> 00:12:30.877 Valentine a Valentine to Hollywood and to America and specifically to Sharon 00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:34.237 Tate. Um you know, it's like it's like, you know, it it really, you know, kind 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.077 of restores her memory in in an amazing 00:12:36.160 --> 00:12:39.357 way. Yeah. Please. He did something very 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.837 smart in the movie for those of us who who love Tarantino and follow his work. 00:12:43.920 --> 00:12:46.957 So I think there that that was like the common theme was like oh god this is 00:12:47.040 --> 00:12:49.757 going to be horrific right and especially if you've read about if you 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:53.597 know the Manson murders if you've read about how gruesome they are like yes 00:12:53.680 --> 00:12:57.837 that was sort of the the dominant theme but his you know he he had he made a few 00:12:57.920 --> 00:12:59.597 films between but like I'd say the last 00:12:59.680 --> 00:13:02.637 other fantastic Tarantino film was the 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.997 revenge fantasy and glorious bastards 00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:10.317 which is of course you know again like could have been I mean it is extremely 00:13:10.400 --> 00:13:13.437 gruesome but at the same time it's a revenge fantasy of what could have 00:13:13.520 --> 00:13:15.277 happened. What could have happened if 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:17.837 someone had killed Hitler? And so in the 00:13:17.920 --> 00:13:22.957 very beginning of the movie, there's a scene with Leonardo DiCaprio also at the 00:13:23.040 --> 00:13:25.277 end, but there's a scene in the very beginning where it shows all of his 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.837 films and he has the famous flamethrower from Englorious Bastards. And so if 00:13:29.920 --> 00:13:34.557 you're a Tarantino fan, you're like, "Wait, wait, wait. Which direction are 00:13:34.640 --> 00:13:38.157 we going in? Are we going in gruesome violence with no purpose, which I would 00:13:38.240 --> 00:13:42.237 argue Tarantino is always misunderstood in that way, or are we going in a are we 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.597 going in a different direction, a little more fantastical, a little more what 00:13:45.680 --> 00:13:49.037 could have happened? Um, and so for those of us with like the eagle eye in 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:52.797 the theater, I think uh I think we kind of we kind of knew, you know, especially 00:13:52.880 --> 00:13:55.117 as you said, like the family said, "Oh, it's it's great. It's going to be fine." 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:59.597 We kind of knew, okay, this this film is not going to be nearly as bad. Um, and 00:13:59.680 --> 00:14:02.797 Tarantino is going to take us in a in a different direction, but he did put that 00:14:02.880 --> 00:14:05.917 little Easter egg in there for us in like the first 10 minutes of the film. 00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:07.197 >> So, it's funny you bring that up because 00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:10.637 I of course totally missed that when I was watching the movie. Um, I just 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:12.717 thought it was like it was like a re, you know, he So, so for people who 00:14:12.800 --> 00:14:16.477 haven't seen it, Leo Caprio plays a sort of a Steve McQueen style movie star on 00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:20.717 1960s named Rick is kind of as the movie starts, his kind of career is imploding. 00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:23.197 Um, he's trying to figure out how to kind of turn things around or stay 00:14:23.280 --> 00:14:26.157 relevant to the times and it it does it shows these clips from his his prior 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:29.357 movies in the universe. Um, and what but I just figured it was just like a 00:14:29.440 --> 00:14:32.717 throwaway. Oh yeah, I see with the flamethrower. That's funny. Haha. Um, 00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:36.957 like it didn't even for a minute occur to me. I mean, you know, just since 00:14:37.040 --> 00:14:40.237 we're going to spoil it, we'll just say the flamethrower plays a critical role. 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.797 >> A pretty critical role. >> Have you ever been happier to see the 00:14:42.880 --> 00:14:46.797 flamethrower get taken out um than 00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:49.917 at the at the end of that movie? But yeah, I mean I I just I was like 00:14:50.000 --> 00:14:52.877 literally I I enjoyed the movie so much when I was watching it, but I I did not 00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:55.917 know. I mean, I I knew it had to be something amazing that I wasn't 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:58.797 expecting in order to get the Tate family on board, but like I I I still 00:14:58.880 --> 00:15:01.517 was I I still was like sitting there in a state of dread throughout the entire 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.437 movie, you know, still anticipating that he would somehow Anyway, so to spoil the 00:15:05.520 --> 00:15:08.877 movie, he he once upon a time in Hollywood, he he basically he basically 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:12.797 tells you the story of the man called of Hollywood at that time and sort of how 00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:15.357 that all intertwined and he takes it all the way up to the night of the murders, 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:19.757 but then he he takes a left turn um in the history as he does this alternative 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.677 history. And so it and and so the the the kid the Manson cultists who who in 00:15:23.760 --> 00:15:26.877 real life culture take in the movie they they they go they go they go in the the 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:28.877 house next door which is which which is 00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:32.397 Leo's house um with with and with Leo's 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:36.797 friend Brad Pitt uh and Brad Pitt's character by the way I don't know you I 00:15:36.880 --> 00:15:39.757 don't know if you know this Kevin I'm curious if you know the backstory on the 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.517 Brad Pitt character is it he doesn't quite say this in the movie but it 00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:46.237 explains a lot which is basically Tarantino's conception of him is he's 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:50.477 basically the most deadly man in the world at that time. So he's he's like a 00:15:50.560 --> 00:15:53.597 you know he plays not just a war hero but like a greeter like you know super 00:15:53.680 --> 00:15:57.197 highly decorated you know basically super soldier uh who's who's become a 00:15:57.280 --> 00:16:00.877 Hollywood stunt man. Um and so basically the um you know the the the mansion 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.277 killer is basically walked exactly to the wrong house because number one 00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:06.077 they're up against this guy who basically like you know spent the 00:16:06.160 --> 00:16:10.237 preceding whatever you know 20 years you know killing people for America. Um you 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:13.277 know basically Captain America and then and then number two it turns out Leo 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:16.157 still had the flamethrower in his garage. Um, [snorts] 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.517 >> well, there's also there's also the backstory that you're you're not totally 00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:23.837 sure how good Cliff is. Like there's a whole backstory of did he kill his wife. 00:16:23.920 --> 00:16:27.437 Um, which is actually in the film and also in sort of the backstory, but like 00:16:27.520 --> 00:16:29.997 there he he is he is he is, you know, a 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:31.597 deadly, as you said, like a very deadly 00:16:31.680 --> 00:16:35.437 person. Um, but that final scene, um, 00:16:35.520 --> 00:16:39.117 and yeah, there's no way you can anticipate, like even if you knew, okay, 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.757 maybe it's not going to be as gruesome or there's going to be some sort of like 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:43.437 revenge fantasy, there's no way you can 00:16:43.520 --> 00:16:48.877 anticipate how genius like the run-up to it is. And then also the final scene 00:16:48.960 --> 00:16:51.677 because there's this whole other thing that happens in the movie where you 00:16:51.760 --> 00:16:55.597 forget that you're watching a movie about the Mansims. like you forget that 00:16:55.680 --> 00:16:59.277 you're watching this this horrific like what what it's supposed to be and 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.237 there's a there's like a 30 minute scene 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.077 um of Rick Dalton who's the who's sort 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:06.637 of this you know um aging like he's 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.437 losing his place in Hollywood he sort of 00:17:09.520 --> 00:17:14.397 you know is is is sort of a at a at a loss for why he's no longer powerful 00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:18.557 right like and and and he has this moment where he stars in this like kind 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:23.117 of cheesy western with this like 11-year-old girl and it's like a movie 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:27.277 within a movie and And it is like probably the best encapsulation of like 00:17:27.360 --> 00:17:30.957 what happens to actors in Hollywood. So you kind of lose track of the fact it's 00:17:31.040 --> 00:17:34.557 like here's Sher Sharon Tate and she's at the Playboy Mansion. She's dancing. 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.757 She's this new generation, but here's this old generation of like hyper 00:17:37.840 --> 00:17:40.877 masculine figures who can't get work. 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.797 And there's there it's just a genius movie within a movie where the little 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.677 girl says to him and it's probably like one of the most memorable lines. She's 00:17:47.760 --> 00:17:51.197 like, "That's the best acting I've ever seen in my whole life." And I mean it's 00:17:51.280 --> 00:17:54.397 like just even if they'd stopped the movie there, it would have been just as 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:57.277 brilliant, right? But then it goes on to this other sequence where you're like, 00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:01.757 "Oh yeah, we're watching we're about to see the most gruesome, you know, 00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:05.837 possible like this. I mean, and you know, I wasn't alive in 1969, but I can 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:09.037 imagine it's like if you know, if Jennifer Lauren, if it happened to 00:18:09.120 --> 00:18:11.917 Jennifer Lawrence or if it happened to Margot Roby or Robbie, who's actually 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:16.397 playing her, right? It would just be this horrific thing. Um, but you kind of 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:20.157 forget because there's all of these just beautiful, hilarious sequences that run 00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.757 up to it. You forget that you're watching a movie that's supposed to end 00:18:23.840 --> 00:18:27.677 in this horrific violence. Um, and of course, I'll let you continue, Mark, but 00:18:27.760 --> 00:18:30.877 it doesn't. It ends it ends in a different type of horrific violence, but 00:18:30.960 --> 00:18:35.277 not female on female violence that characterized the the Manson murders, 00:18:35.360 --> 00:18:37.037 which I think is is another kind of 00:18:37.120 --> 00:18:40.317 subtext of of the of the film. Um, it's 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:44.317 just how how gory and violent the actual episode is, but you you don't actually 00:18:44.400 --> 00:18:47.677 see that. So, I'll let you continue, but there whole other part of the Hollywood 00:18:47.760 --> 00:18:49.437 story that's really fascinating. 00:18:49.520 --> 00:18:50.797 >> Yeah. No, that's that's exactly right. 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:54.957 And by the way, pop quiz, Katherine, the the the little girl the the little girl 00:18:55.040 --> 00:18:58.397 actress, uh, who who was she in who was that intended to be in real life? I 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:01.757 >> I I don't know, actually. Um, >> Jodyie Foster. 00:19:01.840 --> 00:19:03.917 >> Oh. Oh, is that Oh, that's who she's supposed to be. 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:05.597 >> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize. Okay. 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:07.677 >> She's not under that name, but that's basically the the character is supposed 00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:09.997 to be Jody Foster. >> That makes sense. 00:19:10.080 --> 00:19:12.477 >> And so, and I bring that up because like 00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:17.277 representative of of new Hollywood. So, so cuz so Jodie Foster was in that in 00:19:17.360 --> 00:19:20.957 that era was like a rising biscuit child star. Uh and then she she had her 00:19:21.040 --> 00:19:25.037 breakup role in I think in um in Taxi Driver um you know where she's just like 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:29.597 you know it's like incredibly revoly you know acting performance uh uh and so 00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:32.557 she's sort of representative of the new of the new of the quote unquote new 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.757 Hollywood um with the much more naturalistic like the actually 00:19:35.840 --> 00:19:38.717 naturalistic acting style that took over from the much more stylized style of the 00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:42.797 50s and 60s. And so, so I bring that up because to to your point, part of the 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.477 story there is Rick Dalton, you know, basically trying to get out of basically 00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:50.477 making clichéed haty genre stuff, right, where he just plays the same tough guy 00:19:50.560 --> 00:19:53.437 over and over again. Well, so so the running joke up until that point is that 00:19:53.520 --> 00:19:57.117 Rick Dalton starts started out his career as like a tough guy movie star. 00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:00.637 Um, and then basically, you know, over the years like that that that archetype 00:20:00.720 --> 00:20:04.317 was kind of fading in 1969. And so he was increasingly being uh being cast as 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.677 the bad guy. Um, and then and you know then the thing is you know the bad guy 00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:10.397 you know gets like punch is not the guy who punches and knocks other people out. 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:12.317 He's the guy who gets punched and knocked out and he's sort of on this 00:20:12.400 --> 00:20:15.837 dumber slide and he has absolutely no idea how to adapt itself to this new 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:19.197 world. In fact, and again, and the way the movie the way this intersects with 00:20:19.280 --> 00:20:22.077 the other the other part of the movie is, you know, uh is literally when Roman 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:25.597 Palansky and share a tape move in next door, you know, to his character and he 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:29.277 and literally he's like, "Oh my god, if I could just figure out a way to like 00:20:29.360 --> 00:20:32.877 get invited over for like a barbecue or something where I could just meet Roman 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.237 Pansky, who's like the, you know, the the leading kind of new Hollywood movie 00:20:36.320 --> 00:20:39.357 director of that time. If I could just get captioned one of his movies, then I 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.557 could stay relevant, you know, for the next decade." And he just had like 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:46.317 absolutely there was just absolutely no reason for like Roman philosopher Sher 00:20:46.400 --> 00:20:49.277 tape to give to give this Rick Dalton character you know the time of day 00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:52.797 because he just he represent the past they represent the future um until of 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.757 course at the very end of the movie you know Rick Dalton saves you know saves 00:20:55.840 --> 00:20:59.517 her life um and then in that she you know that's that's the significance of 00:20:59.600 --> 00:21:03.357 of him being invited over at the end of the movie is is sort of his entree into 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:05.757 Hollywood having basically been taught 00:21:05.840 --> 00:21:07.837 by Jodie Foster as an 11-year-old in 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:11.277 actually how to act right [laughter] 00:21:11.360 --> 00:21:15.197 basically it comes together in it's in such a genius way. Anyway, yeah. So, so 00:21:15.280 --> 00:21:18.797 so basically like the the the sort of macro the macro relevance of this just 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:23.357 to kind of restate the thesis is you know like if the Manson murders were 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:27.437 were kind of where the cultural revolution in the 1960s went bad then 00:21:27.520 --> 00:21:31.277 once upon a time in Hollywood is sort of the it's sort of the fantasy or the love 00:21:31.360 --> 00:21:35.437 letter to a different America in which that didn't happen right and and and and 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:38.557 basically things kept going in like a much more much a much more positive 00:21:38.640 --> 00:21:42.397 direction. Um, but by putting on screen 00:21:42.480 --> 00:21:44.877 the alternate direction, my view is like 00:21:44.960 --> 00:21:49.677 he really highlights how bad it was that that's not what happened. And so that 00:21:49.760 --> 00:21:52.717 the tragedy of the Manson murders was not just the tragedy for the people who 00:21:52.800 --> 00:21:56.237 were killed and for their families. Um, and which is a profound tragedy, but the 00:21:56.320 --> 00:21:59.677 tragedy was like for basically for all of LA cuz like LA, if you talk to people 00:21:59.760 --> 00:22:02.717 who were who were around during that period, like things got dark in LA like 00:22:02.800 --> 00:22:05.997 very quickly. Like people people were so freaked out by the Manson murders, like 00:22:06.080 --> 00:22:07.997 they didn't know how many other serial killers were running around. They didn't 00:22:08.080 --> 00:22:09.117 know how many other cults there were. 00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.157 They like everybody all of a sudden had to like lock their doors. Like people 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.197 stopped going out. Like it became like and and by the way, this was the 00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:18.157 beginning of the heyday of the serial killer, you know, with Ted Bundy. And 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.357 you know, like it was the beginning of this like wave of these things where 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.277 people got like really really seriously freaked out. Um and and so that was the 00:22:25.360 --> 00:22:27.997 other but but then just generally in America that you know as I said like 00:22:28.080 --> 00:22:31.197 that was the beginning of the downward slide of the 70s. And so by by making 00:22:31.280 --> 00:22:36.797 the what if and positive kind of you know all you know counterfactual so 00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:39.837 clear it sort to me it sort of highlights and illustrates in in maybe 00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:43.197 the way that nothing else has been able to do kind of the darkness that actually 00:22:43.280 --> 00:22:45.037 played out in real life. >> Totally. 00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:48.477 >> Totally. And and and like I I went back and watched uh the beginning of the 00:22:48.560 --> 00:22:52.637 sequence because it's actually a long sequence of violence. Um but what I 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.997 remember so much I read the reviews before not know you know they they try 00:22:56.080 --> 00:22:58.317 to not have spoiler alerts and critics 00:22:58.400 --> 00:22:59.917 were very divided. It was like this is 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.277 so violent. This is extremely violent. 00:23:03.360 --> 00:23:08.237 And what what's funny about seeing it in the theater um which was I'm so glad I 00:23:08.320 --> 00:23:11.997 saw in the theater is that the reaction from the audience and these are again 00:23:12.080 --> 00:23:14.557 it's like if you've been opening weekend these are people who like really wanted 00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:19.037 to see this movie or are Tarantino fans is extreme laughter. 00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:22.237 >> Yes. >> As it is you are laughing during the 00:23:22.320 --> 00:23:23.917 most violent sequence for 20 minutes. 00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:26.957 And what's what's really funny about what's happening on screen too is that 00:23:27.040 --> 00:23:31.597 Cliff Cliff who's the you know the stuntman um that and again this is a 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:35.757 spoiler like turn this off. I'm going to go into detail the he takes an edible 00:23:35.840 --> 00:23:38.477 like or LSD I can't remember if it's an edible or 00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:40.077 >> smokes smokes an LSD cigarette. 00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:45.037 >> Yes. So so right before so he is like high as a kite when these guys come in 00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:46.397 which is also like a funny part of it. 00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.557 And then and the other part that you have to like Tarantino is so particular 00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:55.037 about details and so the music that is playing when they come in is actually 00:23:55.120 --> 00:23:59.037 this like uh psychedelic rock band like and and he shows the kind of transition 00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:02.237 of the ' 60s through music through the entire thing which is really important 00:24:02.320 --> 00:24:06.797 but that scene he's listening to um uh [snorts] the Supremes set me free why 00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:10.317 don't you babe right like so it's this perfect moment of like set me free and 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:12.557 these guys come in he's high and he's 00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.837 like is this is this real? But but Cliff 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:20.877 Cliff's response is like laughter. He's laughing at these women, right? And 00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:21.997 these women, you know, they have their 00:24:22.080 --> 00:24:24.557 their knives like they they are ready to 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.997 to do to do the deed, you know, and um 00:24:28.080 --> 00:24:32.157 and and he's laughing. And I think it's in some ways it's, you know, Tarantino 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.997 always has sort of these like takes on like masculine violence and and you 00:24:36.080 --> 00:24:39.437 know, can can you kind of can you can you can take the power out of whatever 00:24:39.520 --> 00:24:43.517 situation happened in history by just like this extreme violence and like you 00:24:43.600 --> 00:24:46.637 know it's about to happen and there's like a I won't ruin the pit bull part, 00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:50.557 but like there is something >> let's ruin it. Let's ruin it. We're running. 00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.037 >> Okay. Like he he sixs his pit bull on on 00:24:53.120 --> 00:24:56.557 these women, right? But it but the what 00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:00.557 watching it again, you're like this is it's fascinating because if if the 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.517 Manson had been met with laughter, right? Like instead they were met with 00:25:03.600 --> 00:25:06.957 these are the most evil. They're they're you know they're they're they're taken 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:10.877 by the devil, right? Like they were met with fear and and to Mark's point, like 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.797 that set off serial killers. Like it gave power to this extraordinary evil 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:17.117 for for decades. And I think the point 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.597 of it is like what if Cliff, the most 00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:22.637 masculine deadly man in the room, had 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:27.757 just been high and laughed and like, you know, sick as pitull on on on these on 00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:31.197 these women who, you know, are kind of silly and high themselves. And like the 00:25:31.280 --> 00:25:35.277 whole thing had become a comedy, which it turns into like 20 minutes of just 00:25:35.360 --> 00:25:39.357 sheer hilarity. Like just absolute hilarity, even though it's the most 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:44.157 violent thing you've probably seen in the last several years. He he he 00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:47.357 the Bradford character beats a Himei to death with a telephone and it's just the 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:50.957 funniest thing you've ever >> It's like it's it's Yeah, it's like a 00:25:51.040 --> 00:25:53.917 and the flamethrower shows up, right? 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:57.997 Like I mean it's it is there you could not conceive of the type of violence. It 00:25:58.080 --> 00:26:01.037 it meets it meets the most horrific violence that we know is coming, right? 00:26:01.120 --> 00:26:04.237 And like that's the backstory to this too is like you know what really 00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:07.517 happened. So you have this weird anthropolic response of you know what 00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:13.117 actually happened and it's so tragic. U was women on you know I always think 00:26:13.200 --> 00:26:15.517 it's interesting that it was like the Manson family right they called 00:26:15.600 --> 00:26:20.077 themselves family it was a perversion of the family and they actually killed a 00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:23.917 woman who was 8 months pregnant starting a family so it's like this horrific all 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.157 that's a whole whole other narrative to 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.637 this but like the fact that it's met 00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:33.197 with even more extreme violence and and at the time it was during you know it 00:26:33.280 --> 00:26:37.037 was during me too as well so it was violence against women but of course 00:26:37.120 --> 00:26:39.917 everyone wants that violence to happen because you don't want the alternative 00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:43.197 to happen. So, it it's this very strange 00:26:43.280 --> 00:26:48.157 um moviegoing experience u that is both delightful but also like you know a lot 00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:51.517 of mixed emotions that I think you know probably that's why I think critics were 00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:55.917 so divided on it. Um I loved it but that's why I think critics were divided on it. 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.797 >> Yeah. And then if you if you kind of telescope up you know one one notch it's 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:02.477 it's caffing your point. It's like it's like the ultimate square in the form of 00:27:02.560 --> 00:27:05.117 Rick Dalton who's like, you know, still putting broil cream in his hair and 00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:08.557 trying to be like, you know, kind of James Dean tough guy, you know, you 00:27:08.640 --> 00:27:11.677 know, when that's not what the world wants. Um and then yeah and then you 00:27:11.760 --> 00:27:14.237 know basically like I said you know Captain America like an icon of the 00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:18.317 American military you know at the time you know by the way the time of Vietnam 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.517 in which you know the military was you know not you know it was not viewed at 00:27:21.600 --> 00:27:24.877 the level of respect that that American culture has for it today you know the 00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:28.157 the fact that those two you know end up basically beating and roasting a bunch 00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:31.917 of hippies to death at the height of the counterculture. [laughter] 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.437 It's an incredibly crowd-pleasing movie and as you said it kind of happened in 00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:39.277 sort of the sort of you know very very close to peak woke um kind of during our 00:27:39.360 --> 00:27:43.597 cultural revolution of the last decade like it it's it's I I don't I don't know 00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:45.997 if you I don't know if it's properly characterized as like a reactionary 00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:50.797 movie but it it it's it definitely not it was definitely not the arc the moral 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.917 arc of of of other attempts at arc during that time period. 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:57.757 >> Totally. Totally. And and and just even the the final scene of as you said him 00:27:57.840 --> 00:28:01.517 getting invited over and her sort of being blissfully unaware this happens. I 00:28:01.600 --> 00:28:03.597 mean, that's all magical of like she had 00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:06.637 no idea that someone this happens. 00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:10.957 >> Um, and you see like the camera sort of pan up and it's like this is like it it 00:28:11.040 --> 00:28:14.157 just genuinely feels like this is, you know, in the same way that Glorious 00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.077 Bastards was a revenge drama of what could have possibly happened. This is 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:21.517 also like the once upon a time in America story, like what could have 00:28:21.600 --> 00:28:26.317 happened. Um, and and it was a weird movie going experience in 2019 to be 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.917 surrounded by people who were laughing, who loved it. You know, it it it kind of 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:33.037 went against everything you were reading in the news, which is that like, you 00:28:33.120 --> 00:28:37.197 know, no, no one agrees with with sort of this this alternative history. I 00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:39.517 mean, it was it's just a brilliant film. 00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:43.357 Um, that that Yeah, I'm excited there's a sequel coming, right, Mark? 00:28:43.440 --> 00:28:46.557 >> There is indeed. There is a there's a deed, which is going to be Let me also 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.477 say, number one, there's a sequel coming, which, you know, it's going to 00:28:48.560 --> 00:28:50.637 be just incredible, I'm sure. Uh but 00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:53.837 also um there was a there Tarantino it's 00:28:53.920 --> 00:28:58.717 so funny. So you guys may both remember this but back before the internet and 00:28:58.800 --> 00:29:02.477 even back before like DVDs and video rentals if if you like if you if you 00:29:02.560 --> 00:29:05.437 didn't see a movie when it was in the theater like you didn't see it and like 00:29:05.520 --> 00:29:08.317 it might show up on TV like two years later if they would have cut all the 00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:10.797 good parts out and they would have you know stuck in all the commercials. Um 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.197 and so you like have basically in one shot to see a movie in the theater and 00:29:13.280 --> 00:29:15.837 then if you want to see it again and it was out of theater you couldn't. And so 00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:20.237 there was this there was this genre of paperback novelizations um of of movies. 00:29:20.320 --> 00:29:22.637 And so what you would do is you would buy the paperback novelization and then 00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:25.517 you could read that as many times as you want. So you know my I had a shot these 00:29:25.600 --> 00:29:28.477 things when I was a kid you know Star Wars and all these things you read them 00:29:28.560 --> 00:29:32.477 all like 14 times. Um and so anyway so Tarantino being you know sort of a child 00:29:32.560 --> 00:29:37.037 of this era you know like I am Tarantino actually wrote a paperback novelization 00:29:37.120 --> 00:29:39.997 of the movie Once Upon [snorts] a Time in Hollywood and he specifically wrote 00:29:40.080 --> 00:29:45.197 it as a paperback novelization. uh and and so it came out in paperback um uh 00:29:45.280 --> 00:29:48.317 and you know very much as an homage to this but of course being Tarantino it's 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.437 it actually turns out of course it's not just a paperback novelization it turns 00:29:51.520 --> 00:29:55.437 out it's like an entirely new novel um and so and and it's actually funny 00:29:55.520 --> 00:29:59.597 because it doesn't it's it's it's it's it's the novel is set in the same world 00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:03.677 of the movie and has and and and goes much deeper into the themes of the movie 00:30:03.760 --> 00:30:07.197 but like he doesn't even get he doesn't care at all about like having the plot 00:30:07.280 --> 00:30:09.917 of the movie actually in the novel and so he just throws it away right up front 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.517 in the novel oh yeah and then Rick Brick Baldton like roasted a bunch of hippies, 00:30:13.600 --> 00:30:15.837 you know, in his swimming pool that night, right? So, like it's like the 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:19.197 plot's not the point for for the novelization. So, the the novelization I 00:30:19.280 --> 00:30:22.877 think I think is a as a very few people have read it, you know, kind of just by 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:25.517 by virtue of how he how he came out with it, I think, because I think people 00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:27.997 didn't know what to make of like literally a paperback novelization in 00:30:28.080 --> 00:30:31.757 like 2022 or whatever it came out. Uh, but I think it has he has a reasonable 00:30:31.840 --> 00:30:33.837 claim on being a great American novel. 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.797 um be because and and the reason specifically uh Kev I think you'd enjoy 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:40.477 it a lot because it it just it goes much deeper into all the themes of you know 00:30:40.560 --> 00:30:43.437 that we're talking about and so it like it goes really deep into the 00:30:43.520 --> 00:30:46.317 transformation of Hollywood that was happening at that time you know it goes 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:48.957 really deep into the making you know this the western show that happens 00:30:49.040 --> 00:30:52.877 inside the movie which is actually a real show called Lancer uh it was 00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:55.677 actually a real show with with that you know with that setup and with those 00:30:55.760 --> 00:30:58.957 actors um and it goes much deeper into into all the characters and it goes 00:30:59.040 --> 00:31:00.877 deeper into the Manson family uh and so 00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:03.117 it's um uh yeah it's really amazing and 00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:07.917 by I should also say um uh yeah the the movie does have a scene in which it is 00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.757 left ambiguous as to whether or not Cliff Booth killed his wife. By the way, 00:31:11.840 --> 00:31:15.837 let me just say the wife played by Rebecca Dehart um who just like I think 00:31:15.920 --> 00:31:18.957 she's in the movie for like 30 seconds and she almost steals the movie. Like 00:31:19.040 --> 00:31:22.557 she's just hysterically funny and she plays like the meanest like wife in the 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:25.997 world. She's just like hectoring and like screaming at Brad Pitt and they're 00:31:26.080 --> 00:31:30.077 literally on a fishing boat. Brad Pitt has a spear gun in his lap. Um, and it's 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:32.957 sort of and in the movie it's it's like set up as basically, you know, there was 00:31:33.040 --> 00:31:37.597 a spear gun accident. Um, you know, following this argument and and did did 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.637 Brett Bit actually actually deliberately kill his wife or not? Um, and of course 00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.157 in the novelization it makes her fair. 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:47.037 Yes, he he in fact yes, he [laughter] >> I think I think it's in the I think it's 00:31:47.120 --> 00:31:49.437 in the novel. I think it's like yes, Brad Pitt definitely killed his wife and 00:31:49.520 --> 00:31:52.797 got married. Cliff Booth killed his wife and got away with it. Um, and then I 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:55.117 think that I think I think he says the novel he says and that was one of the 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.087 three times that Cliff Booth committed murder, got away with it. 00:31:59.170 --> 00:32:02.077 >> [laughter] >> So anyway, anyway, for those of you 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:04.717 who've only seen the movie, it turn it turns it turns out the click poof 00:32:04.800 --> 00:32:06.557 character actually yes has a real dark 00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:08.237 side and and yes, the the hippies picked 00:32:08.320 --> 00:32:11.917 the wrong house to stumble into 00:32:12.000 --> 00:32:15.437 >> and and so is the we were talking offline about how it's you know there's 00:32:15.520 --> 00:32:19.757 some relevance to today. is is the connection that you know the 2010s to to 00:32:19.840 --> 00:32:24.317 some people was seen as a sort of glorious march towards uh you know 00:32:24.400 --> 00:32:25.917 progress and then you know whether it's 00:32:26.000 --> 00:32:29.277 the 2020 Floyd riots or more recently 00:32:29.360 --> 00:32:33.597 the Louis G you know mun murder or or the murder of Charlie Kirk there's kind 00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:37.277 of this moment of oh my god [laughter] that this thing is gone off there is 00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:40.317 that that kind of the >> so I would say whichever side of the 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:43.757 political and social spectrum you're on like the world that we live in today is 00:32:43.840 --> 00:32:47.277 a much darker version of what everybody thought we were going to be living in. I 00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:51.757 mean like so for people who were like 100% on board with like the social back 00:32:51.840 --> 00:32:53.837 up a second there to your point. So like 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:55.677 I think there's a very direct analogy of 00:32:55.760 --> 00:33:00.397 let's call it 1964 to 1972 or something 00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:04.477 um with the re-election of Richard Nixon. Um like that cultural revolution 00:33:04.560 --> 00:33:07.277 that happened during the 60s kind of the hippie Vietnam you know kind of 00:33:07.360 --> 00:33:11.197 revolution. Um I I think what we what we in America been through in the last 00:33:11.280 --> 00:33:14.237 decade is sort of another version of that. Like I think we we went through 00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:18.157 our version of that. And it started around I would date it to like 2015 2014 00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:21.277 and then you know it basically that era sort of ended November November November 00:33:21.360 --> 00:33:24.637 2024. You know obviously if you're on the right you're like oh my god thank 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:28.077 god that's over. Um and you know the world can move on. If you're on the left 00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:30.877 of course you're like oh my god what just happened? How did you know how did 00:33:30.960 --> 00:33:33.277 the revolution revolution go so bad? 00:33:33.360 --> 00:33:36.397 That that is precisely what happened at the at the end of the revolution in the 00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.397 1960s and and specifically I mentioned 1972. So Richard Nixon was elected 00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:43.197 president in 1968 and it was like a hard fought race and very dramatic in 00:33:43.280 --> 00:33:46.957 Minnesota right but then he was re-elected in 1972 in a landslide like I 00:33:47.040 --> 00:33:50.157 think was it was like a 49 state landslide or some crazy thing like it 00:33:50.240 --> 00:33:51.437 was just like an overwhelming landslide. 00:33:51.520 --> 00:33:54.797 So it's like the American people basically rose up and and basically said 00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:57.357 yeah no more of this it's over. Um and 00:33:57.440 --> 00:34:02.957 and and so we you know we we I mean that the echoes are just like profound uh of 00:34:03.040 --> 00:34:05.917 of how this played out and you know and they're echoes right it's not exactly 00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:08.877 comparable you know and Iraq and Vietnam you know play different roles and so 00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.517 forth and the economy you know developed in different ways and you know Trump and 00:34:11.600 --> 00:34:14.477 Nixon are different people and so forth but and the social movements are 00:34:14.560 --> 00:34:17.757 different uh you know and times have changed but still like there there there 00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:22.317 was there was a cultural revolution it was you know either glorious or terrible 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:26.557 for some period of time and then get ended right it was just like a sequence 00:34:26.640 --> 00:34:29.357 of events happened where just like it was over and you're out the other side 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:33.837 and you're in a new world. Um and and and and and then I I would argue like 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.037 that's exactly what that that's exactly the process kicked off in 69 with the 00:34:37.120 --> 00:34:40.637 mass murders and then sort of book ended with 72 with Nix's re-election and then 00:34:40.720 --> 00:34:43.917 kind of the slide into the 1970s and then ultimately 1980s like that 00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.117 transformation and then I I would argue like that that's pre precisely the same 00:34:47.200 --> 00:34:50.237 kind of transition that we're going through right now. Um, and I I think 00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:53.437 it's either it's either thrilling or horrifying people in a very similar way 00:34:53.520 --> 00:34:57.437 um that the that the end of the 60s uh either thrilled or horrifying people. 00:34:57.520 --> 00:34:59.277 Yeah, Katherine, would you agree with that? 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:02.557 >> I would. I would. Um, and I I also since 00:35:02.640 --> 00:35:07.197 you mentioned Vietnam, I I want to transition to the best Vietnam war film 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:10.157 ever made. >> Okay. This is this is everything we've 00:35:10.240 --> 00:35:13.277 said up until now is milk toast as compared to the extremely controversial 00:35:13.360 --> 00:35:14.797 plane that Katherine is about to make. 00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.357 Please go for It is it is it is by far 00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:21.837 the best Vietnam war film ever made. Um and of course it incorporates every 00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:24.077 Vietnam war film ever ever made in 00:35:24.160 --> 00:35:25.757 including Deer Hunter, Full Metal 00:35:25.840 --> 00:35:28.877 Jacket. Um you know once or or um Born 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.437 on the Fourth of July, Apocalypse Now. 00:35:31.520 --> 00:35:36.237 The best Vietnam war film ever made is Tropic Thunder. Uh but it also happens 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:40.157 to be one of the best films about Hollywood. Um, actually our I would 00:35:40.240 --> 00:35:43.757 actually say that Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, while it is incredible film, 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:48.637 is more about America, but Tropic Thunder is also about America in 00:35:48.720 --> 00:35:52.157 different ways and reveals a lot about America, but is is by far the best 00:35:52.240 --> 00:35:55.997 Hollywood film ever made. I'll let Mark talk about why that is. Um, 00:35:56.080 --> 00:35:59.197 >> well, let's tell us date. Traffic Thunder was what year? 00:35:59.280 --> 00:36:01.757 >> It was 2008, which is actually very 00:36:01.840 --> 00:36:03.517 important. Um because I think one of the 00:36:03.600 --> 00:36:06.877 things that people forget is that um 00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:11.677 2008 was also the year where we had a a P from the Vietnam War running for 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:13.677 office against the first black president 00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:15.597 in history. And that is in very 00:36:15.680 --> 00:36:18.877 important context for all of the themes 00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:20.877 dealt with inside of Tropic Thunder, 00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.197 which of course is a comedy. Um it's a 00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:26.717 satire, but it satarizes everything in 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:30.717 the kind of Before Times 2008. Um, but I think that is a very important subtext 00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:35.277 to what came out during an election year where those two themes were on display. 00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.797 Um, but I'll let Mark get into the summary. Um, since it's also one of his 00:36:38.880 --> 00:36:41.997 favorite films. >> Well, it it is although I I I'm going to 00:36:42.080 --> 00:36:45.917 defer so because you know I think it's I think it's historically you know it's 00:36:46.000 --> 00:36:48.877 maybe the funniest movie funniest Hollywood movie the last 25 years or 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:51.517 something like it's just it's just like an incredibly entertaining movie. Um, 00:36:51.600 --> 00:36:54.877 and just for people to just have a sense of like how much times have changed, 00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.197 like the most I mean there's many amazing things about it, but one of the 00:36:57.280 --> 00:37:00.157 most amazing things about it is, you know, the the great actor Robert Downey 00:37:00.240 --> 00:37:04.557 Jr. uh plays the entire movie of Blackface [laughter] 00:37:04.640 --> 00:37:07.117 and not only plays the entire movie of Blackface, like I would say 00:37:07.200 --> 00:37:10.797 extraordinarily commits for the bit. Um, [laughter] 00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.477 >> yes, he's a method actor playing a method actor. 00:37:14.560 --> 00:37:16.877 entire movie in method playing another 00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.117 method actor, you know, playing an actor 00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:24.237 in in in a type of blackface. Um, again, which which to your point on on um Once 00:37:24.320 --> 00:37:28.237 Upon a Time in Hollywood when the film was first announced, this was known that 00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:32.077 that Robert Downey Jr. was was going to be playing an actor in blackface. And as 00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:34.477 you can imagine, it was the same thing that happened with Once Upon a Time in 00:37:34.560 --> 00:37:37.997 Hollywood, where it was like like the, you know, in the same way that the the 00:37:38.080 --> 00:37:42.157 Tate family was terrified of what would happen in the film. Um there was a whole 00:37:42.240 --> 00:37:46.477 kind of you know terror of what what is going to like Robert Downey Jr. like 00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:50.237 like like he's destroying his career like who does Ben Stiller think he is 00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:54.317 doing this movie right like no one actually knew the backstory or how it 00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:56.557 would be satarizing Hollywood actors who 00:37:56.640 --> 00:37:58.877 will go through any extreme length to 00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:03.677 win an Oscar. Um but but when you get into the film it is handled so 00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:06.797 beautifully indelically and actually I was I was reading um I was reading about 00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.837 sort of how they handled it um when they were producing it which was that they 00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:13.677 invited you know a number of members of the NAACP. They invited, you know, a 00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.477 number of different like very thoughtful critics and said, "You have to see this 00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:19.597 film first and see." And it was again the same sort of thing where it's like 00:38:19.680 --> 00:38:23.677 everyone saw it first and they said, "Don't worry, it's perfect." Right? It's 00:38:23.760 --> 00:38:27.357 hilarious. Um, and so I'll let you continue, but it like they handled it in 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:30.157 a way. >> Wait, did did they have to apologize in 00:38:30.240 --> 00:38:34.317 the 2010s? I remember Jimmy Kimmel had to apologize for blackface uh or or one 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:36.557 of these people. Did they get away with it? 00:38:36.640 --> 00:38:39.517 >> Interesting point. So they didn't So when it came out it was so clearly 00:38:39.600 --> 00:38:43.757 satarizing um white actors who were trying to win 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.917 an Oscar, right? Like so it was clearly satarizing everyone. It it was not it 00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:51.597 was you know it was it was sort of universally beloved. So much so that 00:38:51.680 --> 00:38:55.117 that Robert Downey Jr. was nominated for an Oscar which is a whole other 00:38:55.200 --> 00:38:57.037 backstory to how they made that happen 00:38:57.120 --> 00:39:02.237 because it was kind of a continuation of the movie that they as a joke petitioned 00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:05.997 the Academy. you know, it said for your consideration and the Academy actually 00:39:06.080 --> 00:39:07.837 nominated him for an Oscar for the role. 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.877 So, it was so it was so like beloved 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:15.197 like what he did and how how how brilliant the role was that no one 00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:19.037 cared. But I believe it was like 2017 or 2018 when this sort of like new crop of 00:39:19.120 --> 00:39:20.717 young people came through journalism and 00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.437 said like this is horrible. They tried 00:39:23.520 --> 00:39:28.077 to sort of cancel him. You might know Mark better if how he handled it, but 00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:32.237 like it it clearly they did not cancel Robert Downey Jr. for doing a 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:35.037 satarization of of the role he played. 00:39:35.120 --> 00:39:37.597 >> So just to just to fill this in and then we we'll get to I want to get to the 00:39:37.680 --> 00:39:41.997 Katherine your the Vietnam aspects of this but uh Vietnam war movie aspects to 00:39:42.080 --> 00:39:45.197 this uh but yeah so just specifically what happened was correct me if I have 00:39:45.280 --> 00:39:50.317 this wrong. Um Robert Downey Jr. a white American actor plays a white Australian 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:53.357 actor >> [snorts] >> um who is a method actor who I think was 00:39:53.440 --> 00:39:56.317 sort of loosely inspired by Daniel D. Le as sort of a, you know, sort of that 00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:59.277 that kind that kind of sort of, you know, super elite. You know, there 00:39:59.360 --> 00:40:00.717 there's a couple scenes where you see 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:02.797 where you see where you see Robert out 00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:06.397 of black face, but but dressed up with 00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:09.917 as uh dressed up as the uh as the Australian actor who like has like I 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.037 forget what's like translucent green eyes or something as this very striking 00:40:13.120 --> 00:40:16.877 striking look and like this very plumby Australian accent. Um, and so it's a 00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:18.557 white American actor in real life played 00:40:18.640 --> 00:40:20.717 a white Australia actor playing a 00:40:20.800 --> 00:40:24.397 southern black man in blackface 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:28.397 for the entire movie. On top of that, I believe Robert Downey often often 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.517 improvises uh through throughout his movies. And I I think a fair amount of 00:40:31.600 --> 00:40:36.077 the uh uh I think a fair a fair amount of the portrayal was was was him on on 00:40:36.160 --> 00:40:39.197 the spur of the moment, which is which is, you know, fairly incredible uh uh 00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:41.997 when you see it uh because he he fully fully inhabits the world. And then of 00:40:42.080 --> 00:40:45.517 course he's he's actually in the movie he's actually he's in you know in in in 00:40:45.600 --> 00:40:48.317 the movie inside the movie he's in this he's in a platoon with of course an 00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:52.397 actual black guy who's a young black actor whose name I can't recall but he 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:56.237 just like impress >> it was such to him he's a br it's a 00:40:56.320 --> 00:40:59.357 brilliant like the way they play off each other is brilliant. His name in the 00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.397 film is Alpuccino but Alpacino 00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:06.797 >> Alino who's a rapper who's a rapper who becomes an actor. 00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:11.997 >> Yes. it and and there's a >> there's a whole other >> Go ahead. Sorry. 00:41:12.080 --> 00:41:14.797 >> Oh, no, no. I was gonna say there's a whole other through line there of his 00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:17.437 his role because I think one of the things that everyone remembers of the 00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:19.997 film is they have the fake um trailers 00:41:20.080 --> 00:41:22.477 before the film starts and he is 00:41:22.560 --> 00:41:24.477 Alpuccino the rapper and he's selling a 00:41:24.560 --> 00:41:29.597 drink that he calls Booty Sweat. Uh and and and what's so funny about like how 00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:32.797 brilliant this film is because not only like not only do they satarize Hollywood 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.117 in the film, they were like the first Barbenheimer. Like what they did, 00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:40.317 they're like, "We're going to market this in so many funny ways." They did 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:43.357 incredible things before and after the film. But one of the things that the 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:45.117 that they did was they made Booty Sweat 00:41:45.200 --> 00:41:47.437 into an actual drink. Marketed it 00:41:47.520 --> 00:41:52.237 through the entire Oscar petition. Like they they went so far. I mean, the only 00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:56.157 film that's done this as as exceptional as Drop of Thunder was was Barbie. Um, 00:41:56.240 --> 00:42:01.197 but they they they they figured out how to turn every aspect of this film into a 00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.677 into marketing genius. The other smart thing that they did, by the way, the one 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.797 of the actors that that Ben Stiller, Ben Stiller plays this guy named Tug 00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:13.517 Speedman, who is based on a dumb Tom Cruz. His name is Tug Speedman, right? 00:42:13.600 --> 00:42:14.957 Like, where did they get that name? It's 00:42:15.040 --> 00:42:17.517 Tom Cruz. But they also have Tom Cruz in 00:42:17.600 --> 00:42:23.837 the movie as as the producer who's based on Harvey Weinstein. Uh, less less I I 00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:25.837 can't remember his >> less Gman. 00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:29.757 >> Less Grossman. Yes. Um, and so but they didn't want anyone to know Tom Cruz was 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:33.037 in the film. So they actually sued anyone any of the paparazzi who took 00:42:33.120 --> 00:42:36.317 pictures of him before because they wanted people to come to the theater and 00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:39.917 not know that Tom Cruz was in it. And of course he like wrote his entire role 00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.637 like like he he to to your point in improv like he improvised that entire 00:42:44.720 --> 00:42:48.237 role and wrote it. Like it was sort of Tom Cruz's brainchild. I think they 00:42:48.320 --> 00:42:50.797 originally offered him something else and he's like, "No, no, no. I I want to 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:55.677 play Harvey Weinstein and it is genius, but they did so many things to make sure 00:42:55.760 --> 00:42:59.437 that the entire sort of cult of the movie outside of the movie was like 00:42:59.520 --> 00:43:03.837 Hollywood produced." Um, where you to to to Mark's point, you have this, you 00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:07.997 know, method actor playing a method actor who is trying to get an Oscar 00:43:08.080 --> 00:43:12.957 through his method acting who ultimately ends up getting nominated for the Oscar, 00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:14.957 losing to Heath Ledger the the year that 00:43:15.040 --> 00:43:17.997 Ledger died posthumously. um when it was 00:43:18.080 --> 00:43:23.037 awarded to him. But it it's like they they could not have this is a 20-year 00:43:23.120 --> 00:43:25.357 project. That's the other that's the other very interesting thing about this 00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:29.117 was like Ben Stiller has been working on this since the 80s. And it was just that 00:43:29.200 --> 00:43:32.797 year where they were finally able to get it made and it is this brilliant 00:43:32.880 --> 00:43:37.037 commentary on all of Hollywood. And we can get into the Vietnam stuff too 00:43:37.120 --> 00:43:40.717 because I think it's also commentary on that. But it's it's it is the best 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:44.477 Hollywood film ever made even in the fact that they were able to successfully 00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:47.357 sway the Oscars. >> Right. Well, it was also Catherine to 00:43:47.440 --> 00:43:50.477 your point. It was also the recite of the Tom Cruz image issues at the time 00:43:50.560 --> 00:43:54.397 cuz this was after the sort of run of controversy around him and psychology 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.277 and his personal life and all those things. And there there was so this run 00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.917 of very bad publicity. A lot of people in the industry were worried that he was 00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:03.677 not going to be a bankable movie star anymore. And I I think this role in this 00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:06.957 movie was basically his recovery from that which which was pulled off 00:44:07.040 --> 00:44:09.437 absolutely perfectly. And of course he then went on to be an even bigger movie 00:44:09.520 --> 00:44:13.357 star than before. >> Totally. >> Yeah. So it's a great career 00:44:13.440 --> 00:44:15.117 resurrection in in the middle of this. 00:44:15.200 --> 00:44:18.157 Yeah. And then Yeah. Just just in terms of like how how much times have changed 00:44:18.240 --> 00:44:20.317 or you know somebody once said that the 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:25.197 past is a is a foreign planet or another country. Um 00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:28.557 is yeah like you you had an American actor being nominated for an Oscar for 00:44:28.640 --> 00:44:33.117 for a character performed at black blackface in 2008. 00:44:33.200 --> 00:44:37.117 directed by a Hollywood filmmaker who's obviously a genius but you know within 00:44:37.200 --> 00:44:40.397 10 years was like he you know Ben Ben Stellar subsequently became one of the 00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.317 wokest Hollywood figures uh you know in in the years that follow like you know 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.597 all all through the last decade like Ben Stellar has been like you know to you 00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:51.597 know to to the left of Shavara on every social and political issue and so and I 00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:55.917 I you know I I don't know I've never met him I've met great admirer of his art 00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:00.157 but like I wonder how much of his shift to the far left politically and socially 00:45:00.240 --> 00:45:02.237 was a was a reaction having made this it. 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:05.597 >> Well, well, and the other thing is everyone focuses on Robert Downey Jr., 00:45:05.680 --> 00:45:09.197 but there are like at least four other untouchable things that happened in that 00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.157 film. Um, so the the disability advocates actually when the film came 00:45:12.240 --> 00:45:14.157 out, the the people who were most upset 00:45:14.240 --> 00:45:17.277 in 2008 were the disability advocates um 00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:21.037 because of the um commentary on what's I 00:45:21.120 --> 00:45:24.637 believe it's on what's eating Gilbert Grape, right? Never like I'll just say 00:45:24.720 --> 00:45:27.037 >> oh and forest Forest and Forest Gup. 00:45:27.120 --> 00:45:31.277 Yes. Yes. >> And Rayman and Rayman. Yeah. Um um uh uh 00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:34.877 Simple Jack. >> Simple Jack. Yes. So the the the famous 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:36.957 line that is said is and and again I'm 00:45:37.040 --> 00:45:38.957 I'm quoting the film, never go full 00:45:39.040 --> 00:45:44.317 Um which was okay to say in 2008 except for the disability advocates um 00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:45.517 who were who were very upset about it. 00:45:45.600 --> 00:45:49.517 And of course, like they were sort of on the fringe in 2008, but that was 00:45:49.600 --> 00:45:53.117 actually the thing that that Ben Stiller had to apologize for because they they 00:45:53.200 --> 00:45:55.517 didn't they didn't test the film on 00:45:55.600 --> 00:45:58.237 SimpleJack. But it was commentary from 00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:00.957 from Robert Downey Jr. in blackface 00:46:01.040 --> 00:46:03.357 saying everybody knows and then saying 00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.837 the line, right? Because because Tug 00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:08.397 Speedman doesn't play it as he should. 00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:12.077 Um he he he does the full Leo DiCaprio what what's eating Gilbert Grape sort of 00:46:12.160 --> 00:46:15.117 like, you know, full on, right? He doesn't do Rain Maker. But there's two 00:46:15.200 --> 00:46:19.037 other things that happen. Um, so the the other thing that I think people didn't 00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:21.677 realize is that be it is so much of a 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:24.157 commentary on Vietnam War film because a 00:46:24.240 --> 00:46:29.117 lot of Vietnam war memoirs in later years have been proven to be completely 00:46:29.200 --> 00:46:32.397 disingenuous, right? So it's like people who said they went to Vietnam didn't go 00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:34.717 to Vietnam. And so in the storyline and 00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:39.517 the film, the guy whose memoir, Tropic Thunder, the movie is actually based on, 00:46:39.600 --> 00:46:42.077 >> right, >> is a is a member of the Coast Guard who 00:46:42.160 --> 00:46:46.157 never got sent to Vietnam who worked for the sanitation department, right? Like 00:46:46.240 --> 00:46:47.757 that's like a whole theme in the movie. 00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:51.197 And so there's this like brilliant commentary also on like, you know, 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.157 veterans issues and I think some veterans groups were upset about it. 00:46:54.240 --> 00:46:58.557 There were also people who were very upset with um Tom Cruz's portrayal. Um, 00:46:58.640 --> 00:47:01.837 and it was, you know, it was before we kind of all knew who he was betraying 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:04.237 and everything, but there were people who were very upset that they felt that 00:47:04.320 --> 00:47:08.157 that was the stereotype. So, like pretty much every character, like there was 00:47:08.240 --> 00:47:11.757 there was people who were and again these were cringes. It wasn't like mass 00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:13.517 commentary on this, but there like they 00:47:13.600 --> 00:47:19.197 managed to insult like every protected group uh in a way that like ev like 00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:22.237 everyone kind of was like, well, yeah, but it's it's satire, right? So, it it 00:47:22.320 --> 00:47:26.237 was a totally different time in America, but it wasn't just um you know, focus on 00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:29.757 on race relations. I mean, it was on, you know, we had a again, we had a 00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:33.597 Vietnam P running for president that year 00:47:33.680 --> 00:47:38.637 >> and and basically a mockery, like the greatest mockery of Vietnam film ever 00:47:38.720 --> 00:47:42.317 made. So, in some ways, it's like this film was just like so perfectly timed 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:44.157 for the era we were living in. 00:47:44.240 --> 00:47:48.397 >> Well, we still have to this day, let's not names on on a on a otherwise a fun a 00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.597 fun podcast, but there there are sitting United States politicians in in serious 00:47:51.680 --> 00:47:54.957 offices who like literally faked Vietnam War Records. 00:47:55.040 --> 00:47:59.197 >> Like that like that's not over. like that's actually still the case. Um, and 00:47:59.280 --> 00:48:02.317 so to to your point like you know there there were many people obviously who 00:48:02.400 --> 00:48:04.477 served very honorably in Vietnam and then there were people who like made up 00:48:04.560 --> 00:48:08.797 completely fake stories and wrote them the rest of their career. Um, and like 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:11.917 you know that Yeah. So the movie takes like it's your point movie among other 00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.917 things takes direct aim at that >> and I I believe the guy wears a hook the 00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:17.677 whole film with glasses [laughter] hand. 00:48:17.760 --> 00:48:19.277 I mean like there's like this movie is 00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:22.157 so brilliant. It's so brilliant and the 00:48:22.240 --> 00:48:25.597 levels of of commentary um just are are 00:48:25.680 --> 00:48:29.917 remarkable to this day. >> Yes. Yes. And so yes. Yes. Cute. Yes. I 00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:33.757 mean just like so yeah maybe this is book ends the the previous previous 00:48:33.840 --> 00:48:37.357 conversation of just like Yes. This is clearly made before the culture before 00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:39.197 our version of the cultural revolution. 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:43.357 Um and so it's it's it's like a it's like it's like an ancient artifact. Um 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:47.517 uh um like I say only now are we reemerging into a world in which a movie 00:48:47.600 --> 00:48:50.717 like that could be made like for a movie like that for the last probably what 13 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.917 years or something would have been totally off limits. Um and we're coming 00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:56.077 out into a world now where movies like that can get made again. 00:48:56.160 --> 00:48:57.437 >> Yeah. Jimmy Kimmel is not going to bring 00:48:57.520 --> 00:49:00.157 back the man show uh [laughter] 00:49:00.240 --> 00:49:05.117 or return to his uh his his roots. Um >> for people who followed Yes. For people 00:49:05.200 --> 00:49:08.717 who don't get the reference, for anybody who followed the recent Jimmy Kimmel uh 00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.717 sort of affair and all of the outrage, uh it is worth going on YouTube and just 00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:15.997 yeah, looking at clips from a Jimmy Kimmel show 20 years ago, which was 00:49:16.080 --> 00:49:21.117 literally called The Man Show. Um and uh to just to get a sense of the uh the the 00:49:21.200 --> 00:49:25.197 long and twist the long and twisty road that some of our uh some of our highest 00:49:25.280 --> 00:49:27.037 most famous public figures have followed. 00:49:27.120 --> 00:49:29.757 >> And also a tale of a tale of two comedians, right? Because it's him and 00:49:29.840 --> 00:49:31.517 and Adam Corolla, right? And it's like 00:49:31.600 --> 00:49:36.797 their their careers have detoutored dramatically since since the show. 00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:40.477 >> Yes, that's right. >> Two other films we wanted to discuss uh 00:49:40.560 --> 00:49:42.157 were Oenheimer and Fight Club. 00:49:42.240 --> 00:49:44.317 >> So, let's start with let's start with let's start with Oppenheimer just 00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:47.517 because it's it's more it's it's more recent. So, I I I will make the case. 00:49:47.600 --> 00:49:50.397 So, I'm a I'm a you know enormous Christopher Nolan fan. I've seen all his 00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:54.477 movies. I love all his movies. I I think they're really tremendous. Um you know, 00:49:54.560 --> 00:49:58.397 I I think that I you know, let me say this. I'm I think Tenant is one of the 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:03.597 best movies I've ever seen. Um, and like I I I I sat through Tenant with a giant 00:50:03.680 --> 00:50:06.397 smile on my face the entire movie. Like I just thought that was just like 00:50:06.480 --> 00:50:09.197 absolute magic. Obviously I loved Inception. Uh, I loved many of his 00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:13.757 movies. Um, and I think Oenheimer was like an incredibly well-made movie. Um, 00:50:13.840 --> 00:50:16.717 and had, you know, incredible performances and was was like, you know, 00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:19.437 put together really well. It was, you know, tremendously interesting to watch. 00:50:19.520 --> 00:50:24.477 I I I I will argue that it did not re reach our level of capital A art. Uh, I 00:50:24.560 --> 00:50:28.157 think it it actually quite badly fell short um on sort of uh I would say 00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:30.957 morality and um and uh and ultimately 00:50:31.040 --> 00:50:33.277 and and in importance uh to our culture. 00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:36.317 But uh yeah, let me I'm be happy to get my feel on that. But let me just start 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.117 by saying C Katherine, would just out of the gate, would you agree with me on 00:50:39.200 --> 00:50:41.437 that or would you like to would you like to take that would you like to take the 00:50:41.520 --> 00:50:43.117 pro side that Oppenheimer was great art? 00:50:43.200 --> 00:50:47.037 No, I I I agree with you, but I probably I probably concur like I probably have 00:50:47.120 --> 00:50:49.437 different reasons um than you as to why 00:50:49.520 --> 00:50:51.597 I didn't think it worked like and I 00:50:51.680 --> 00:50:56.877 should I should preface it with like I I had hyped this movie so much where my 00:50:56.960 --> 00:50:59.917 expectations might have been so ridiculously high that when I finally 00:51:00.000 --> 00:51:03.837 saw it I was like me. But I do think it's interesting Robert Downey Jr. was 00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:08.237 all he won the Academy Award finally for Oenheimer. He deserved it for Tropic 00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:12.077 Thunder. He was fantastic in the movie, but I will say he deserved it for Tropic 00:51:12.160 --> 00:51:14.877 Thunder. And if not for Heath Ledger, he would have won it for Tropic Thunder. 00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:17.837 And I feel like that that would have been really the role he should have won 00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:21.277 it for, but he was fantastic in Oenheimer as well. So to your point, 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:26.077 like there there were there were many good uh performances. My my sort of 00:51:26.160 --> 00:51:28.397 criticism is probably different than yours, but it probably has a lot more to 00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:31.517 do with like the actual sort of storytelling and film making than the 00:51:31.600 --> 00:51:35.037 actual um content of of the of the work. 00:51:35.120 --> 00:51:36.637 >> Okay, got it. Yeah. So I because I would 00:51:36.720 --> 00:51:39.837 say so for people who haven't seen it, we're going to spoil it. So, uh, Robert 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:42.157 Robert Robert Downey plays, uh, a real 00:51:42.240 --> 00:51:44.557 life guy named Lewis Strauss, uh, who 00:51:44.640 --> 00:51:47.357 was a, um, he was a very high ranking 00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:51.757 like sort of important person of the of the of the 1950s, 1960s in the 00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.197 government. Um, and, uh, ended up I forget the exact role, but basically 00:51:55.280 --> 00:51:59.757 ended up overseeing um, uh, Oppenheimer having a security clearance stripped and 00:51:59.840 --> 00:52:02.557 and basically being booted out of the out of the military-industrial complex 00:52:02.640 --> 00:52:07.037 after after, you know, basically leading the creation of the atomic bomb. Um, and 00:52:07.120 --> 00:52:10.637 the the movie kind of goes through that whole story. Um, uh, and you know, it's 00:52:10.720 --> 00:52:13.437 a fantastic performance. All the all I mean, look, all the performances in the 00:52:13.520 --> 00:52:17.437 movie were fantastic. Uh, Jillian Murphy was just outstanding as Oppenheimer and 00:52:17.520 --> 00:52:20.477 and then was it Benny, I think it's Benny Safy, one of the Safety brothers, 00:52:20.560 --> 00:52:25.437 uh, played um, Edward Teller um, and like almost just stole the movie just 00:52:25.520 --> 00:52:28.637 with that portrayal. Um, and again, you know, a real person, the creator of the 00:52:28.720 --> 00:52:30.877 later the creator of the hydrogen bomb. 00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:34.477 Anyway, so fantastic performances, fantastic direction. Um I I will argue 00:52:34.560 --> 00:52:37.037 my my critique of the movie though it involves the following claim which is 00:52:37.120 --> 00:52:38.877 that Louiswis Strauss is actually the hero of the movie. 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.157 >> Yes. May maybe go into that history so people understand um because that is 00:52:42.240 --> 00:52:44.157 definitely not the takeaway from the film. 00:52:44.240 --> 00:52:47.597 >> Yes. That is not what the film intend uh uh you know the film intended I think 00:52:47.680 --> 00:52:50.477 the film in see if Katherine would agree with this. The film intended to contrast 00:52:50.560 --> 00:52:54.877 basically a great man Oppenheimer to basically a u an an as an an aspirate to 00:52:54.960 --> 00:52:57.917 greatness who you know fell badly short in in the Louis Dra character who sort 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:01.597 of brought the great man low and in a in a fun fundamentally unfair way. And then 00:53:01.680 --> 00:53:05.037 it sort of the movie sort of sets up both uh Oppenheimer and actually also 00:53:05.120 --> 00:53:09.677 specifically Albert Einstein as sort of the key moral authorities um of of the 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.957 era with respect to use of nuclear weapons. Both both claims of which I 00:53:13.040 --> 00:53:17.277 believe are like deeply incorrect um on substance. Um and this is my critique of 00:53:17.360 --> 00:53:20.637 so my critique of the movie is not in it execution or any of the performances. My 00:53:20.720 --> 00:53:24.237 critique is the morality of the movie I think is very badly upside down. Um and 00:53:24.320 --> 00:53:26.877 and it's upside down in a way that kind of flatters our current politics but 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:29.997 like is very badly upside down in terms of what actually happened at the time. 00:53:30.080 --> 00:53:33.757 Um and so the the movie basically tells the story of course Robert Oenheimer the 00:53:33.840 --> 00:53:37.037 the sort of person who ran the the Manhattan project created the atomic 00:53:37.120 --> 00:53:39.997 bomb which was then you know at least historically gets credit for you know 00:53:40.080 --> 00:53:43.837 helping to end World War II you know when when when the US dropped dropped 00:53:43.920 --> 00:53:47.117 you know there won't be only two uses of the atomic bomb in wartime you know to 00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:51.677 date where you know the US dropped dropped a bomb on Japan twice in 1945 00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.477 and you know and there you know there's even still to this day debate about this 00:53:54.560 --> 00:53:57.917 but you know generally accepted history I think is that that you know that ended 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:01.357 the the the Pacific theater conflict, you know, sooner than it would have. It 00:54:01.440 --> 00:54:04.477 it prevented the need for a land invasion of Japan, you know, you know, 00:54:04.560 --> 00:54:07.437 conceivably, you know, saved like a million lives or something like that. 00:54:07.520 --> 00:54:11.437 Now, by the way, it was dropping the atomic bomb on two civilian cities, 00:54:11.520 --> 00:54:14.957 right? So, again, you know, like the morality of the time was, you know, 00:54:15.040 --> 00:54:17.997 quite a bit different than, you know, than maybe ours today, but but anyway, 00:54:18.080 --> 00:54:20.797 so that's that's kind of the history of it. And then, you know, famously, the 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:24.317 Manhattan Project was sort of this assembly of of sort of the finest minds 00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:27.837 uh in America. Many many of whom by the way were you know refugee you know not 00:54:27.920 --> 00:54:32.237 not up I'm up and I character actually is a is a is a in in the movie in in 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:35.597 reality and in the movie is German Jewish whose you know had who his family 00:54:35.680 --> 00:54:39.917 had arrived much earlier um and but then a lot of the other key members of the uh 00:54:40.000 --> 00:54:43.117 Manhattan project you know kind of been one of the great twists of irony were 00:54:43.200 --> 00:54:46.797 Hungarian Jewish refugees from you know from from basically the Nazi kind of 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:50.237 rampage through Europe you know who came to the US and and and basically you know 00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:54.637 helped arm up the US as which Edward Teller was an example of that um and So 00:54:54.720 --> 00:54:57.117 anyway, so the movie tells this, you know, kind of the amazing story of of 00:54:57.200 --> 00:54:58.877 the Manhattan Project, but specifically 00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:01.757 in the arc of of Oppenheimer, um I guess 00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:06.877 I would say that the the the the conventional Let me back up for a sec. I 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.517 think the first half of the movie I think is actually quite historically 00:55:09.600 --> 00:55:13.437 grounded and I think has like I I like I at least I agreed with this 00:55:13.520 --> 00:55:16.717 interpretation of history. And so is the following. So the first half and I think 00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:18.717 the movie is maybe a little bit schizophrenic and I should give it a 00:55:18.800 --> 00:55:21.357 little bit more credit than I than I was. But like the first half of the 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:25.997 movie is actually a it's one of the only recreations on film of what American 00:55:26.080 --> 00:55:30.317 elite culture and society and American um uh research establishment of kind of 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:33.277 the leading experts at the time the 1920s and 30s like how thoroughly 00:55:33.360 --> 00:55:35.757 saturated that that world was communism. 00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:40.317 Um and and specifically it sort of recreates uh you know this sort of the 00:55:40.400 --> 00:55:43.197 there's actually there's actually a joke in the movie there's a line in the movie 00:55:43.280 --> 00:55:45.677 that's sort of one of these one of these jokes that's not really a joke which is 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:49.277 the joke is you know cuz the a lot of the movie takes place as is set up as at 00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:54.077 UC Berkeley um and uh there's sort of a joke a joke in the movie which is like 00:55:54.160 --> 00:55:57.277 you know well you know you know it's so and so on the Berkeley faculty you know 00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:00.077 is a communist somebody else will says yes like half the Berkeley faculty are 00:56:00.160 --> 00:56:02.477 communists like every like everybody knows that like it's just completely 00:56:02.560 --> 00:56:05.837 taken for granted and of course you know the the politics of that aside the issue 00:56:05.920 --> 00:56:09.197 becomes, okay, now they're working on a classified weapons program. Um, you 00:56:09.280 --> 00:56:12.477 know, the US is, you know, is kind of variously at odds with not just Germany, 00:56:12.560 --> 00:56:16.397 but also with Soviet Russia. Um, and, you know, there's this very big concern, 00:56:16.480 --> 00:56:19.437 you know, we're, you know, the the this effort is is is inventing this, you 00:56:19.520 --> 00:56:22.397 know, super weapon. Uh, and there was a, you know, very high degree of concern 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:25.277 that the the secrets of of the atomic bomb were going to, you know, just walk 00:56:25.360 --> 00:56:28.397 their way out the out the door from Los Alamos. were going to end up at, you 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.837 know, bad people's hands, you know, and one fear obviously was that they'd end 00:56:31.920 --> 00:56:35.437 up in Hitler's hands, but another fear was they would end up in Stalin's hands. 00:56:35.520 --> 00:56:40.317 And by the way, spoiler alert, that's exactly what happened. [laughter] So So 00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:44.957 in fact, the nuclear secrets will walk right out the door. Um and um you know 00:56:45.040 --> 00:56:48.477 and and basically the both the the the concepts of the atomic bomb and then 00:56:48.560 --> 00:56:52.637 actually the specific wiring instructions uh for the atomic bomb were 00:56:52.720 --> 00:56:55.437 actually walking right out the back door of Los Alamos into into into into 00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:58.877 Soviet's hands and Stalin got the bomb very quickly after that and it was 00:56:58.960 --> 00:57:01.037 directly derived from the work that actually happened on the Manhattan 00:57:01.120 --> 00:57:04.317 project. And so it turned out the Manhattan project like it really was 00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:07.357 riddled in the contra spies and there there's these famous names in history 00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.317 like the Roseberg and David Greenlass that you can go through and read about 00:57:10.400 --> 00:57:13.917 if you want. But like it like the the fears of all of the people who are 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.637 worried about this were actually correct. It is actually what happened. 00:57:16.720 --> 00:57:20.077 Um by the way there's a character in the movie Boris Pash who is sort of the 00:57:20.160 --> 00:57:23.277 security officer at the Manhattan Project both in real life and in the 00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:26.157 movie. In the movie, he's sort of portrayed as this like guy with 00:57:26.240 --> 00:57:29.597 basically essentially a stick up his butt like this like guy who's like, you 00:57:29.680 --> 00:57:32.637 know, like constantly like, you know, cross-examining and not trusting the 00:57:32.720 --> 00:57:35.197 scientists and thinks that I'm Oenheimer's probably a spy and the whole 00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:37.917 thing. He's kind of portrayed as this like over the top, you know, kind of 00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:41.357 thing. But like if you if you go if you read his Wikipedia entry of like what 00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:44.557 his life story had been up until that point, he's another one of these guys 00:57:44.640 --> 00:57:47.357 where just like he has just this incredibly impressive backstory of like 00:57:47.440 --> 00:57:51.277 service to the country at fighting commiss. Um and then you know and then 00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:53.917 like you know whether he was right about Oenheimer we could talk about but like 00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:57.517 he was right that like Los Alamos would run with cognitive spies and this is 00:57:57.600 --> 00:58:01.037 going to lead to catastrophe you know with with Stalin getting the bomb. Um 00:58:01.120 --> 00:58:03.677 and then you know the Strauss character was also very worried about that and 00:58:03.760 --> 00:58:06.717 again you know outside of whether he was right about Oppenheimer per se. He was 00:58:06.800 --> 00:58:10.237 he was right about the he was right about the broader issue. Um and so so so 00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:14.157 that is what actually that that is what actually happened. Um, and so like all 00:58:14.240 --> 00:58:17.197 of the security concerns that are kind of a setup to what you know is sort of 00:58:17.280 --> 00:58:19.677 portrayed as the persecution of Robert Oppenheimer, like they were all 00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:21.677 completely legitimate security concerns. 00:58:21.760 --> 00:58:24.397 And in fact, the worst case scenario actually did happen. Like all the 00:58:24.480 --> 00:58:27.757 secrets like walked right out the door, went straight to Stalin. The first 00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:31.117 Soviet, we now know this, the first Soviet atomic bomb was wire for wire 00:58:31.200 --> 00:58:34.957 compatible with the US Nagasaki bomb, right? So, so, so, so, so they got 00:58:35.040 --> 00:58:37.437 literally the wiring threats. And, you know, for for people who have read about 00:58:37.520 --> 00:58:40.157 nuclear weapons, like it's actually very hard to detonate a nuke and they have to 00:58:40.240 --> 00:58:44.397 be wired in a very specific way. Um it's like you can't they're very difficult to 00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:47.837 set off and like the Soviet spies on the Manhattan project literally like 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:52.557 transferred that information to to to to Russia B nuclear power. Um and so anyway 00:58:52.640 --> 00:58:56.237 like within that there's this arc of basically Oenheimer you know was he or 00:58:56.320 --> 00:58:59.917 was he not there's one arc actually which is was he or was he not himself a 00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:03.357 Soviet asset which is it's generally viewed historically that he wasn't 00:59:03.440 --> 00:59:05.757 literally a Soviet asset although I think there are still questions around 00:59:05.840 --> 00:59:08.717 that in fairness and we could talk about that but then there's just this broader 00:59:08.800 --> 00:59:12.077 thing which is even if he wasn't like was he trustworthy and could could he be 00:59:12.160 --> 00:59:15.117 relied upon and then there was this specific thing that actually happened 00:59:15.200 --> 00:59:19.117 which the movie presents a version of that I think is not is my understanding 00:59:19.200 --> 00:59:23.837 history is not correct but which Oppenheimer basically u worked his butt 00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:27.677 off to to deliver the atomic bomb for the purpose of beating Germany and 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:31.517 Japan. Um but then immediately upon that happening, the US weapons program 00:59:31.600 --> 00:59:34.477 shifted into making the hydrogen bomb which was going to be the you know the 00:59:34.560 --> 00:59:37.357 big one that was going to be used ultimately you know ultimately was going 00:59:37.440 --> 00:59:40.957 to be used in the cold war you know as as a deterrent against the Soviet Union 00:59:41.040 --> 00:59:45.597 you know at a project led by Edward Teller um and um and and the accusation 00:59:45.680 --> 00:59:48.717 always was Oenheimer deliberately slow roll the development of the hydrogen 00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:52.077 bomb like he he tried to prevent that from happening of course the the the you 00:59:52.160 --> 00:59:54.957 know and you know Oppenheimer's version of the story is it's one thing to like 00:59:55.040 --> 00:59:58.637 have a nuc take out a city if to end a war it's another thing to have a nuke 00:59:58.720 --> 01:00:01.597 that can take out the planet. Uh, you know, and and and so like, you know, 01:00:01.680 --> 01:00:03.757 should we really be doing this? But there's another version of the story 01:00:03.840 --> 01:00:06.397 which is you were completely in favor of beating Germany and Japan and then but 01:00:06.480 --> 01:00:09.117 the minute it came to beating the Soviet Union, you [snorts] know, you got cold 01:00:09.200 --> 01:00:12.317 feet. Hm. You know, isn't that interesting? Right? That that that 01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:15.277 that's the thing that you didn't want to have happen. And then there's just the 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:19.917 reality that like Oppenheimer's background and political activities and 01:00:20.000 --> 01:00:23.117 like all of the people around him including his wife and his girlfriend 01:00:23.200 --> 01:00:27.197 and his brother were actual like I don't believe this to be the case. I think his 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:31.357 wife, his girlfriend, and and his brother were all actual communists, like 01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:35.277 actual capital C carry communists. And then Alenheimer himself was like 01:00:35.360 --> 01:00:38.477 embroiled to communism and it's it's sort of communist, you know, sort of 01:00:38.560 --> 01:00:42.077 adjacent organizations, you know, his entire life. He he's not known ever have 01:00:42.160 --> 01:00:43.277 been a member of the communist party. 01:00:43.360 --> 01:00:46.877 Although again there's there's there's u there's ambiguity there because the 01:00:46.960 --> 01:00:49.997 Soviets had a practice of having their best placed assets actually never become 01:00:50.080 --> 01:00:52.317 members of the communist party because of course they were trying to protect 01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:55.357 them against exactly the kind of persecution that Oppenheimer got got got 01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:59.197 leveled against him. U so anyway so in in the movie ultimately his security 01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:03.037 clearance gets gets stripped and he sort of resigns to disgrace. The movie paints 01:01:03.120 --> 01:01:06.397 this as like a great act of moral heroism on his part where basically he 01:01:06.480 --> 01:01:08.957 wanted credit for the little bomb, but he didn't want the big bomb to happen 01:01:09.040 --> 01:01:12.317 and certainly didn't want to have anything to do with it. Um, you know, 01:01:12.400 --> 01:01:13.917 and and look, you know, he's dead. 01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:16.397 They're all dead. Like, you know, I I don't know that we'll ever know like 01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:18.797 what what what lay in their hearts, but there are very interesting questions 01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:21.997 around this. Um, and then there's the the and then there's my most stinging 01:01:22.080 --> 01:01:25.277 indictment of the movie, which is Einstein was the exact opposite of 01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:27.597 immoral exemplar. Uh, Einstein was a 01:01:27.680 --> 01:01:32.477 Stalinist. like Einstein was like a fullon like Einstein was proto Stalin 01:01:32.560 --> 01:01:35.757 like not even just procism was actually like pro Stalin and Einstein thought but 01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:38.797 like American democracy was like not going to cut it and like we clearly 01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:41.437 needed to get to communist dictatorship and there's a there's a book that goes 01:01:41.520 --> 01:01:44.957 through this called when reason goes on holiday uh that came out a few years ago 01:01:45.040 --> 01:01:47.117 that kind of goes through all of Einstein's writings and speeches and 01:01:47.200 --> 01:01:51.197 kind of reconstructs this history and so the movie kind of presents Oenheimer and 01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:54.717 Einstein as like the adults and especially Einstein as like the moral 01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:58.637 adults in the room uh to a degree that I just think is like basically at this 01:01:58.720 --> 01:02:01.597 point bizarre and the and the reason it's bizarre is because you know the 01:02:01.680 --> 01:02:04.477 whole thing is set up of like oh my god what if the atomic bomb destroys the 01:02:04.560 --> 01:02:07.757 world oh my god you know this whole thing and all politics involved in that 01:02:07.840 --> 01:02:10.797 so the beginning and so forth but like we're sitting here 80 years later and 01:02:10.880 --> 01:02:13.757 and the thing that we know today and I don't know that any of us would choose 01:02:13.840 --> 01:02:16.397 to have had the events play out this way and maybe the world would be better 01:02:16.480 --> 01:02:19.277 without the bomb or whatever but like what we know today is World War II 01:02:19.360 --> 01:02:23.917 didn't happen um and so basically like everybody everybody in sort of the 01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:27.517 military political establishment in 1945 kind of took it for granted that there 01:02:27.600 --> 01:02:30.637 was going to be World War II with the Soviet Union at some point. Um, and it 01:02:30.720 --> 01:02:33.037 was going to be a land war, you know, in Europe and around the world and it was 01:02:33.120 --> 01:02:35.517 going to kill probably, you know, on the order of 200 million people and it was 01:02:35.600 --> 01:02:36.637 just going to be absolutely devastating. 01:02:36.720 --> 01:02:41.037 And like, you know, in any other era like of of of sort of geopolitics, like 01:02:41.120 --> 01:02:43.197 that almost certainly would have happened given how given how tense 01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:47.117 everything got, especially in the ' 60s and ' 70s. Like, literally, it didn't 01:02:47.200 --> 01:02:50.077 happen. Like World War II is is is the dog that didn't bite. And and the reason 01:02:50.160 --> 01:02:52.397 World War II didn't happen is sort of, I think, fairly obvious, which was 01:02:52.480 --> 01:02:54.157 mutually assured destruction, right? 01:02:54.240 --> 01:02:56.797 that the fact that both sides had nukes basically meant that neither side could 01:02:56.880 --> 01:02:59.757 go to war with the other and that resulted in 80 you know it resulted in a 01:02:59.840 --> 01:03:03.437 cold war but not a hot war. Um, and so I, you know, I think if you kind of 01:03:03.520 --> 01:03:06.477 stack up Oppenheimer and Teller and these guys, you kind of say, you know, 01:03:06.560 --> 01:03:08.397 by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by by by building bombs that could 01:03:08.480 --> 01:03:11.917 destroy the world, they prevented at least one, you know, major world war, if 01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:15.597 if, you know, by the way, if if not many. Uh, and by the way, the existence 01:03:15.680 --> 01:03:18.557 of nukes may prevent another world war for 500 years, right? You know, we don't 01:03:18.640 --> 01:03:21.517 know yet, but like, you know, like that that mutually assured destruction is is 01:03:21.600 --> 01:03:26.397 is still in effect. They may be they may be uh they may be causing us to not have 01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:29.197 a hot war with with China, right? The fact that both the US and China have 01:03:29.280 --> 01:03:32.637 nukes. Um, and so anyway, so and and by the way, that's all debatable and you 01:03:32.720 --> 01:03:35.997 could argue that, but like that's the argument that's the argument that ought 01:03:36.080 --> 01:03:39.517 to happen like especially with what we know today. And I just thought the movie 01:03:39.600 --> 01:03:41.837 like I thought the movie just like really cheated on the morality of it 01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:44.717 because it kind of presented this as slam dunk that the nuke was bad and that 01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:47.037 these people were bad and the whole thing was bad and that Einstein was like 01:03:47.120 --> 01:03:51.837 a or sorry that both Einstein and Oenheim were moral heroes in some extent 01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:54.557 kind of trying to line up against this and I just thought that that really 01:03:54.640 --> 01:03:58.637 cheated the audience. I I I think uh I think you and I are much closer on our 01:03:58.720 --> 01:04:02.557 critique of it. My my sense is very similar to yours that it started out 01:04:02.640 --> 01:04:06.397 very strong, right? Like like your your the portrayal in Berkeley like it was a 01:04:06.480 --> 01:04:10.797 very interesting, you know, like you kind of you saw this complex figure and 01:04:10.880 --> 01:04:14.557 complex character and then there's this whole middle section um on the Manhattan 01:04:14.640 --> 01:04:18.237 Project that kind of culminates in what I would say is like incredible like 01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:22.557 visuals and sound. Like actually like the movie excels in both score and 01:04:22.640 --> 01:04:26.397 sound. And if you saw it in a theater, you were like the the the sound editing 01:04:26.480 --> 01:04:28.877 is like the thing that won the Oscar, right? I think they won 10 Oscars. I 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.797 mean, they won everything, but it's like like sound editing and score like just 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:35.517 incredible movie making. And then to 01:04:35.600 --> 01:04:39.837 your to use your word schizophrenic like the third part which is all about you 01:04:39.920 --> 01:04:43.437 know Robert Downey Junior Junior's character being like a villain. It sort 01:04:43.520 --> 01:04:46.077 of ends with this you know there's this brilliant scene that I think everyone 01:04:46.160 --> 01:04:48.717 remembers where they show him giving a 01:04:48.800 --> 01:04:51.517 speech to all the people at Los Alamos 01:04:51.600 --> 01:04:57.197 and then they show like him envisioning bodies um in in you know in in Hiroshima 01:04:57.280 --> 01:05:00.717 right and you kind of see the justosition. you see him sort of losing 01:05:00.800 --> 01:05:05.517 his his sort of um his his sort of you know con conviction that he did the 01:05:05.600 --> 01:05:09.197 right thing and I feel like if they had just stopped the movie there it would 01:05:09.280 --> 01:05:12.637 have been the commentary on like okay like we don't really understand his 01:05:12.720 --> 01:05:16.077 legacy but instead they had to tie it up with it was almost like if you know for 01:05:16.160 --> 01:05:18.717 for writers and artists like if you don't know how to end something you kind 01:05:18.800 --> 01:05:21.597 of tie things up with neat bows that have nothing to do with the thing that 01:05:21.680 --> 01:05:25.597 happened before and it felt like the third section on the security clearance 01:05:25.680 --> 01:05:29.837 and on him being a hero was almost like the filmmaker's apology like actually no 01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:33.277 no I'm going to side I'm actually going to paint this for everyone and side that 01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:36.237 he was actually a good man and and there's there's no sort of moral 01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:39.837 ambiguity about this this figure like he was actually a good man and actually the 01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:43.997 the real villains are the national security hawks and the people in 01:05:44.080 --> 01:05:47.117 Washington and the bureaucrats and like and then it was just this sort of 01:05:47.200 --> 01:05:50.637 portrayal of you know the evil bureaucracy coming for the beautiful 01:05:50.720 --> 01:05:53.997 scientists and and it sort of mimicked I think also a conversation that was 01:05:54.080 --> 01:05:55.837 happening in 2023 when it came out which 01:05:55.920 --> 01:06:01.197 is all of these great AI I scientists basically saying, "Oh, well, no, AI is 01:06:01.280 --> 01:06:03.597 actually going to kill us all." And, you know, I know this because I'm an expert. 01:06:03.680 --> 01:06:07.197 It was like the same sort of thing. And I kind of felt like that was also the 01:06:07.280 --> 01:06:10.397 the sort of language of the end of the film is like, "No, no, it's normal for 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.917 people who who build incredible things to like actually regret their 01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:18.637 innovation." And it just felt like way too buttoned up for a film that has a 01:06:18.720 --> 01:06:22.717 lot more complexity and that if they had just ended it at hour two, it would have 01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:25.517 been a masterpiece. >> Yeah. It felt like it wanted to conform 01:06:25.600 --> 01:06:27.517 with President Morales like very badly. 01:06:27.600 --> 01:06:30.157 Yeah. >> Um, yeah, exactly. Um, and so anyway, so 01:06:30.240 --> 01:06:32.717 that's my like like long extended argument for why Leo Strauss was 01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:37.597 actually the hero of the movie. U was correct. Uh, Oppenheimer could not be 01:06:37.680 --> 01:06:40.877 trusted. Oppenheimer needed to be rejected in the project. Also, Lewis 01:06:40.960 --> 01:06:43.997 Strauss is shown in the movie as being very jealous of of Einstein, but if you 01:06:44.080 --> 01:06:47.597 squint, you could say he also had Einstein's number. He knew Einstein was 01:06:47.680 --> 01:06:51.837 not to be trusted. Um, uh, which was 100% true. But then yeah, Catherine to 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:55.517 your point like it like if you again I guess exactly right what you just said 01:06:55.600 --> 01:06:59.197 the comparison to AI like if you read the history of of those people at that 01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:01.757 time specifically people like Oppenheimer you realize yeah the people 01:07:01.840 --> 01:07:05.597 who invent the technology have no special moral claim uh they have no 01:07:05.680 --> 01:07:08.077 special predictive power for the consequence of the technology and they 01:07:08.160 --> 01:07:11.597 have no no basis for a superior moral claim on the implications of the 01:07:11.680 --> 01:07:14.477 technology. Um and and I will say this, the movie, you know, the movie being 01:07:14.560 --> 01:07:17.677 made by geniuses, like there was a scene in the movie that actually did kind of 01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:20.797 hit that uh which was which was which was based on a real life thing that 01:07:20.880 --> 01:07:24.077 happened which was Oenheimer after the war, visited Harry Truman at the in the 01:07:24.160 --> 01:07:27.837 White House. Um and basically and and this is sort of in in the histories in 01:07:27.920 --> 01:07:30.717 the real world histories. Oppenheimer basically went to Truman and bas 01:07:30.800 --> 01:07:34.317 essentially basically confessed enormous guilt uh for having built the atomic 01:07:34.400 --> 01:07:38.237 bomb and for for having you know for the US having dropped it on on Japan and and 01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:41.917 actually in real life Truman is I forget the exact quote but it's in the Truman 01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:45.597 biographies uh you know Truman basically said uh it basically uh you know 01:07:45.680 --> 01:07:48.637 basically like got him out of his office as fast as possible and told his chief 01:07:48.720 --> 01:07:51.837 of staff like I think I think the exact line was never let that weepy son of a 01:07:51.920 --> 01:07:55.757 bitching here again. Um, and then I think the line of the movie is based on 01:07:55.840 --> 01:07:59.037 something Truman apparently actually said which was, you know, Robert, you 01:07:59.120 --> 01:08:01.677 didn't make the decision to drop the bomb. It's not on you. I made the 01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:05.677 decision. Right. Which, right, which which is like which is like an 01:08:05.760 --> 01:08:09.997 incredibly powerful thing which is the dulyeleed commander-in-chief of the 01:08:10.080 --> 01:08:14.077 country made that decision as he should have that the the the scientist does not 01:08:14.160 --> 01:08:17.277 have the moral authority to decide how the technology is used. It it's it's the 01:08:17.360 --> 01:08:20.077 it's our, you know, in our system of of government that the the 01:08:20.160 --> 01:08:22.477 commander-in-chief has that authority, you know, and our elected 01:08:22.560 --> 01:08:26.637 representatives. Um, and so I like to the movie's enormous credit, it did 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:29.437 include that. It did show that. Um, and 01:08:29.520 --> 01:08:34.077 again, like in my fantasy cut of the movie, that's the end of the movie. Um, 01:08:34.160 --> 01:08:38.557 so they kind of nodded that, but like like I said, they then then they let 01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:40.797 then then they let him off the hook um uh at the end. 01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:43.277 >> Shall we close with uh with Fight Club? 01:08:43.360 --> 01:08:47.037 >> Fight Club. Well, we could spend an entire we could spend hours on just 01:08:47.120 --> 01:08:49.357 Fight Club and we probably should at some point. I I will just say about 01:08:49.440 --> 01:08:52.717 Fight Club. Bike Club's an amazing I it's like I think it's I I think it's 01:08:52.800 --> 01:08:55.997 it's 100% true art with capital A. I think it's amazing. I think it's you 01:08:56.080 --> 01:08:59.277 know definitely going to stand the test of time, you know, already is. Um and 01:08:59.360 --> 01:09:01.597 it's one of those movies and it's it's one of those movies that has that 01:09:01.680 --> 01:09:05.037 characteristic we talked about last time where like if you watched it the week it 01:09:05.120 --> 01:09:08.557 came out versus a year later versus 5 years later versus 10 years later versus 01:09:08.640 --> 01:09:12.637 20 years versus 30 years later. Like it it has new meanings uh as as as our 01:09:12.720 --> 01:09:16.157 society evolves and and it's got and you can kind of you can kind at any kind of 01:09:16.240 --> 01:09:17.517 point in time you can kind of use it as 01:09:17.600 --> 01:09:21.437 a prism on our society. Um it's it's 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:25.357 it's amazing in retrospect. I guess my my sort of so social political kind of 01:09:25.440 --> 01:09:29.437 kind of analysis of it would be like it was clearly intended as a leftwing movie 01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.717 um at the time because it was sort of it was sort of um and you know and the 01:09:32.800 --> 01:09:35.837 novel that you know this the famous novel that it's based on you know and it 01:09:35.920 --> 01:09:39.517 was sort of this you know almost like what was it remember the original like 01:09:39.600 --> 01:09:42.717 there's the sort of leftwing anti- capitalism of that era like leftwing 01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:46.557 anarchism um you know a little bit like that you know the '90s version of like 01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:49.597 Luigi leftism or something where it's like you know capitalism is this you 01:09:49.680 --> 01:09:51.917 know basically this horrible right-wing machine that's like crushing everybody's 01:09:52.000 --> 01:09:54.477 spirits Um and of course in the movie Andart in 01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:58.077 place you know sort of an office drone who just like absticates his life. Um 01:09:58.160 --> 01:10:01.277 and you know has no future in my case himself and you know ends up doing all 01:10:01.360 --> 01:10:03.677 all the things that that you know kind of play out in the movie which you know 01:10:03.760 --> 01:10:06.717 and then by the way the movie culminates in basically the the the destruction of 01:10:06.800 --> 01:10:10.877 capitalism. Um you know basically what is it he they they he takes down the 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:13.277 buildings containing I think it's like all the what is it all the bank records 01:10:13.360 --> 01:10:16.717 or credit card records uh to kind of you know wipe this lake clean and start 01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:20.797 start the economy and society over again. Um, [clears throat] so at the 01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:23.357 time it's just like, wow, that's like a really leftwing message. And of course 01:10:23.440 --> 01:10:25.677 it's, you know, it's like it's, you know, David Fincher and it's Edn Brad 01:10:25.760 --> 01:10:29.037 Pitt. It's like one of the best most entertaining, you know, most captivating 01:10:29.120 --> 01:10:31.517 movies ever made. It's it's phenomenal, but like it's fundamentally a leftwing 01:10:31.600 --> 01:10:34.077 movie. You watch it today and you're just like, "Wow, it's like ultra 01:10:34.160 --> 01:10:36.317 rightwing." Like it's like ultra ultra 01:10:36.400 --> 01:10:41.357 ultra rightwing cuz it's a to start with it's a white guy, right? Um, right. And 01:10:41.440 --> 01:10:44.157 so like it's literally you view it today and you're like wow it's you know it's 01:10:44.240 --> 01:10:47.437 it's you know the stereotype would be it's a right you know it's a it's a it's 01:10:47.520 --> 01:10:52.157 a white you know it's a privileged white male incel uh you know basically right u 01:10:52.240 --> 01:10:54.477 you know with like every advantage in the world who suddenly you know 01:10:54.560 --> 01:10:58.317 nevertheless has built up this persecution complex right and you just 01:10:58.400 --> 01:11:01.437 lines you're just like wow that's like an ultra right-wing movie and then by 01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:04.877 the way the the sort of argument the movie makes about like capitalism is 01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:08.397 like the great you know atomization of society and like nobody has any type 01:11:08.480 --> 01:11:11.597 anything and people are just like interchangeable cogs in the great you 01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:15.437 know kind of you know in the great kind of machine of modernity um you know they 01:11:15.520 --> 01:11:17.837 kind of put on this assembly line through complete meaningless until they 01:11:17.920 --> 01:11:20.797 die and like all concept of like family and community is like completely 01:11:20.880 --> 01:11:23.837 ruptured and like capitalism is like you know basically the machine that does 01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:27.757 that you know neoliberal capitalism is the machine that does that like sitting 01:11:27.840 --> 01:11:32.557 here today that's a rightman critique um and so and so I I I probably shouldn't 01:11:32.640 --> 01:11:35.037 name names but I did talk to somebody who was involved in the making of the 01:11:35.120 --> 01:11:39.277 movie I don't want to it was a I don't want to I don't want to represent his 01:11:39.360 --> 01:11:42.157 his views but I specifically by name, but I talked to somebody who made the 01:11:42.240 --> 01:11:44.477 movie and I laid up my theory that it was a leftwing movie at the time and now 01:11:44.560 --> 01:11:48.077 it's a right movie. And this this person basically said, "Oh, no." He's like, 01:11:48.160 --> 01:11:50.877 "It's very clear in the movie that at the end, you know, that he greatly 01:11:50.960 --> 01:11:53.357 regrets what he's doing." Like, you know, he he like has, you know, he's 01:11:53.440 --> 01:11:57.117 filled with regret. Like, it's a very, you know, kind of sad tragic ending. Um, 01:11:57.200 --> 01:12:00.157 and and I was like, "Oh, well then if you just like used AI to just go in 01:12:00.240 --> 01:12:03.837 there and tweak the final scene of of the Ed Norton character standing, you 01:12:03.920 --> 01:12:06.557 know, watching the buildings come down and if you just tweak the final scene to 01:12:06.640 --> 01:12:09.677 where he would have like a sly little smile on his face, like all of a sudden 01:12:09.760 --> 01:12:12.797 like the entire movie becomes like this, you know, basically ultra rightwing from 01:12:12.880 --> 01:12:16.717 start to finish." Um, and anyway, I I'll pause there. I just I just got to say 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:19.517 whichever way you interpret it, like I think that movie definitely is capital 01:12:19.600 --> 01:12:22.557 AR. I think it's amazing. I think it'll I think people will be watching it and 01:12:22.640 --> 01:12:24.717 discussing it, you know, 100 years from now. 01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:28.557 >> Yeah. to to bring it back to the original thesis of this podcast, 01:12:28.640 --> 01:12:31.837 monitoring the situation that's going on in the internet. Um, what went viral 01:12:31.920 --> 01:12:36.797 this week related to Fight Club was the PSAs that Brad Pitt and Edward Norton 01:12:36.880 --> 01:12:40.317 put out before the movie came out in theaters. And if you have, I won't, this 01:12:40.400 --> 01:12:44.317 is one thing I won't spoil, but it was going viral like why don't we make PSAs 01:12:44.400 --> 01:12:46.237 about like staying silent in the theater 01:12:46.320 --> 01:12:48.797 like this uh anymore. You have to watch 01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:53.357 it. It's like 90 seconds. Um, and it just confirms that Brad Pitt is the 01:12:53.440 --> 01:12:57.677 goat. he is hilarious. Um, and that he puts serious thought into everything he 01:12:57.760 --> 01:13:02.157 does, including the please stay quiet in the theater uh PSAs that went out before 01:13:02.240 --> 01:13:06.717 the movie came out in theaters 25 years ago. So, watch it. Uh, I'm glad it's 01:13:06.800 --> 01:13:09.837 going viral again. And we should definitely make actors do those PSAs for 01:13:09.920 --> 01:13:13.597 theaters. >> So, Katherine, that movie came out in what year? 01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:17.357 >> 1999. >> 99. Yeah. 1999, >> which is kind of universally I remember 01:13:17.440 --> 01:13:19.517 just like a year of like absolutely amazing movies. 01:13:19.600 --> 01:13:23.037 >> Yes. Maybe that maybe the best single year for movies in the last like 40 01:13:23.120 --> 01:13:27.277 years or >> or longer. So um question um could that 01:13:27.360 --> 01:13:30.077 movie So number one is that movie was at least according to the accounts that 01:13:30.160 --> 01:13:33.357 I've read that movie was very difficult to make. Um and then once they had in 01:13:33.440 --> 01:13:36.077 the can like people the original people who saw it like were you know it was 01:13:36.160 --> 01:13:38.877 just like a lot of people just like didn't know what to make of it you know 01:13:38.960 --> 01:13:42.077 cuz there's a very simplistic reading of it right which is just like total 01:13:42.160 --> 01:13:45.837 nihilism and like just destruction and you know sex violence you know to no 01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:49.517 purpose. It's one of those movies where like you you have to have a lens on the 01:13:49.600 --> 01:13:52.077 movie. You have to have an idea of the movie or the movie has to get its idea 01:13:52.160 --> 01:13:54.717 across to you and you have to you have to catch the idea before you can 01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:57.357 actually watch it properly because if you just watch it otherwise it just 01:13:57.440 --> 01:14:00.797 seems like it's just like tremendously nihilistic which I you know very much I 01:14:00.880 --> 01:14:03.357 very much don't believe that it is. But uh you know I think it was very 01:14:03.440 --> 01:14:07.997 controversial at the time u it was very hard to get made. You know it's it was 01:14:08.080 --> 01:14:11.517 misinterpreted by many people over the years and by the way the people who made 01:14:11.600 --> 01:14:15.837 it me is misinterpreting it. Um, and so that that movie could get made during 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:17.197 that era. Could that movie have gotten 01:14:17.280 --> 01:14:21.357 made uh after the '90s? 01:14:21.440 --> 01:14:25.277 >> I I feel like it's the like the consumate '90s film, [clears throat] 01:14:25.360 --> 01:14:27.117 >> right? Like like just the the as you 01:14:27.200 --> 01:14:29.277 said, like the critique on consumerism, 01:14:29.360 --> 01:14:33.917 like the uh sort of early critique on um 01:14:34.000 --> 01:14:38.477 you know, kind of the consumerism affecting masculine like traits, right? 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:41.437 like like the whole the whole reaction of you know we're going to have a fight 01:14:41.520 --> 01:14:45.277 club to kind of reclaim our our masculinity and sort of our life and our 01:14:45.360 --> 01:14:48.157 you know that that felt like was actually I mean it's it's interesting 01:14:48.240 --> 01:14:50.717 because it's the same critique it's the same conversation that's happening right 01:14:50.800 --> 01:14:55.997 now but it really was also a '9s conversation um just sort of you know 01:14:56.080 --> 01:14:59.757 and that's the same thing as um I believe 1999 was also American Beauty 01:14:59.840 --> 01:15:03.357 and that's a similar sort of like all of these movies had the same sort of to 01:15:03.440 --> 01:15:07.677 your point nihilism but sort of this David Foster Wallaceesque sort of 01:15:07.760 --> 01:15:10.877 consumerism M is destroying us. We're moving to the suburbs and we have to 01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:13.117 reclaim in some way. And like the sort 01:15:13.200 --> 01:15:16.797 of I I I don't like the portrayal of any 01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:20.797 man feeling like constrained in their, you know, it was it was always sort of 01:15:20.880 --> 01:15:24.637 like the consumerism and the suburbanization of America is destroying 01:15:24.720 --> 01:15:26.717 sort of like masculine freedom, right? 01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:29.837 So there were like that was like a very '9s 01:15:29.920 --> 01:15:33.517 >> coded end of the '9s film era. like I 01:15:33.600 --> 01:15:37.117 don't so part of me is like I don't I it could probably be made but it would 01:15:37.200 --> 01:15:40.077 probably be made with totally different ethos and maybe a totally different take 01:15:40.160 --> 01:15:45.357 on that um thesis now like the thesis is slightly different than what it was in 01:15:45.440 --> 01:15:49.517 the '9s which is that like you know like Walmart is destroying you right like 01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:52.717 it's a very different now it's like tech is destroying you but at the time it was 01:15:52.800 --> 01:15:55.917 Walmart and capitalism are destroying you >> Mark Katherine thanks so much for for 01:15:56.000 --> 01:16:01.530 coming on and talking about movies again thank you so much Perfect. [music] 01:16:06.710 --> 01:16:12.280 [music] Hey,