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LA in a lot of ways is is sort of you
you could describe it as like it's the

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ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar ar
ar ar ar ar ar ar ar archetypal American

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city. Here's the larger significance of
Once Upon a Time in Hollywood or my view

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of it, which is it captures a time
and place that was absolutely critical to

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the evolution of modern America.

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>> The reaction from the audience
is extreme laughter. You are laughing

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during the most violent
sequence for 20 minutes.

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>> Well, uh excited to have the Modern the
Situation crew back for another episode

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on movies. Uh Mark, thanks
for joining again. Yes. Excited.

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>> So, we want to go deeper into some
of our in some of our favorite movies.

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Mark, I know from watching movies with you
that one of your genres you enjoy is

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movies about Hollywood. And so, we
wanted to start with Once Upon a Time in

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Hollywood. Why don't you talk about
what's so remarkable about that or why

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you wanted to talk about it?
>> The reason I movies about Hollywood, I

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mean, one is they tend to be very
entertaining because of course the

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people who make movies about Hollywood
are from Hollywood and they they know

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where all the bodies are buried. Um,
and they tend to put them all in in the

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movies. Um, and so they're, you know,
all run spectacular Hollywood movies. So

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for people who haven't seen, I would
recommend Mahal and Drive. Um, it's one

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of Eric's favorites. Um, and [laughter]

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>> nightmares run it >> and, uh,
and then The Player, um, which

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also is an alltime alltime one there.

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You know, there's there's a bunch of,
of course, you know, famous ones like

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Sunset Boulevard, but, you know, the
the iconic, you know, clearly the the the

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iconic Hollywood movie, you know, now
is is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, you

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know, by by Quentyn Tarantino. Um, and

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so, uh, the the reason I like Hollywood
movies is because like, you know, there

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are a handful of cities that have
a claim to be like the ultimate American

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city. Um, and you know, New York City
is one of those. You know, I think you

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know, San Francisco in some ways,
you know, where we are is. Uh, but LA and

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Las Vegas also put on the list. But,
by the way, for Las Vegas, see Bugsy talk

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about that another time. But, um, that's

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the iconic Vegas movie. Um but uh LA in

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a lot of ways is is sort of you you
could describe it as like it's the ar

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archetypal American city and and literally
it's a um there's a great book

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we can we'll put put in the notes called
thinking big where it goes actually the

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creation of the city of Los Angeles
and basically like Los Angeles you could

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argue is the ultimate American city
because it was the ultimate fake it

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until you make it uh thing like it
was the theos of cities um and so and and

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and very specifically like it was desert
like there was absolutely nothing uh in

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LA And then um you know literally it was
like a land development deal by a bunch

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of wealthy families in the in the in
the late 1800s. And they they literally

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placed newspaper ads in eastern
newspapers. You know this is you know

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this is before you know photography made
it into newspapers. And so like you know

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when there was like a a picture
of something in a newspaper it' be a

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drawing. Um, and so they they would uh
they would uh they would they would list

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land plots for sale in Los Angeles
and they would have like line drawings of

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like you know orchards and like you know
beautiful everything's green and palm

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trees and then you know people would
like buy the land move across country

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and discover that it was just like
blasted out desert um and then you know

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they they famously created you know they
created the city they carved it carved

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it out of the desert and um and then you
know they they famously um you know it's

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a famous saga of how they went to get
the water you know which which turned

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into you know another great another

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great LA movie uh you know um uh

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Chinatown. Um, and you know, it as as
you'd expect, you know, Hollywood kind

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of goes for the, you know, kind of goes
for a certain interpretation of history.

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And so it, you know, sort of painted
in retrospect as like a purely evil

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activity, but um, you know, there's
actually, you know, there's actually

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like a very kind of straightforward
reading, which is like this is what was

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actually required to create a city. Um,
and it was it wasn't as black and white

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as as as sort of a you know,
the Hollywood history has it. It was more

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complex story, but still, you know,
very very interesting, amazing story. And,

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you know, cities like what Los Angeles
are created every day. So, you know,

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that's a pretty big deal. Um, so anyway,
like movies about LA, I think it with

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when when they're when they're when when
they reach the level of capital A art,

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you know, they they become movies about
America. Um, and so it's like a great,

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you know, it's like a great test bed um
or a great subject, you know, or a great

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lens through which to look at look at,
you know, the history of America. And

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Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is,
I would say, one one of the top movies u

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in that along that theme. Um, let me
start by saying if if anybody watching

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this hasn't seen Once Upon Time
in Hollywood, pause the podcast

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immediately. Um, go watch the movie >>
and then come back because I would just

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we going to spoil the on it. [laughter]
Um, and it's tremendously fun to watch.

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If you haven't if you haven't if you
haven't read about it, by the way, I'd

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also say like it's a tremendously
entertaining movie. Like it's one of the

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most entertaining Ponfor Pond movies.

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You know, it's like infinitely
rewatchable. You know, the the cast is

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ridiculous. Um, you know, every frame of
the thing is amazing. Um, so it's also a

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very fun movie. But um so okay so here
here's the larger significance of once

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upon a time time at Hollywood or my view

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of it which is um it it it captures
a time and place um that was absolutely

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critical to the evolution of modern
America um in um and I think Katherine

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you'll remind me but I think
of the year was it 60 was it 69

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>> 69 yeah >> 69 yeah 69
and so to to put this in

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context and the movie you know kind
of goes through this but it the movie

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doesn't explain all the cultural
backstory it shows you what happened but

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it does explain the backtory so I'll
just go through the backtory so you know

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basically like what we now consider
to be the kind of the cultural revolution

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of the 1960s. You know, really started,
you know, probably in like around 1964

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with the Berkeley free speech movement
and then kind of, you know, sort of, you

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know, kind of expanded or metastasized
to include, you know, the the sort of

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hippie movements and then, you know,
the sort of birth of like modern rock and

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roll and the rise of the counterculture.

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Um, and, you know, all of a sudden
everybody's, you know, has long hair and

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they've got beads and they're, you know,
they're wearing, you know, suede, uh,

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you know, jackets and they're, you know,
wearing they're not washing their

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Levis's. um and you know sort of that
old counterculture. And so there was

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this like just like incredible explosion
of um you know this when the baby

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boomers were you know you know coming
of age as as as basically high school and

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college kids this incredible explosion
of art uh culture creativity uh social

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innovation you know the the birth of you
know the commutes you know the the you

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know the entire hippie movement and then
of course this is also when world when

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the Vietnam war was ramping up and so

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this was you know the the ramp up in um

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you know in uh in conscription of uh you
know people you know American kids being

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off to to to Vietnam but you know kind
of you know say non-volunteers and so

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the you know the kind of anti-war
movement kicked in the campus the

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college protest kicked in um and like
the entire thing was like you know and

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we kind of remember it as like this like
incredibly like sort of spontaneous and

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you know largely positive explosion
of kind of you know breaking out of the

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staltified cultural norms of the 1940s
1950s you know the creation of kind of

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the modern kind of liberated American
society by the way obviously also right

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alongside that you know the civil rights
movement and feminism and gay rights and

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you know kind of all you know kind of
the the whole explosion of of of sort of

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modern modern morality through that
period. Um and anyway from from like if

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you read the histories of the time
basically from 64 to 69 it was just

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basically this like just glorious
wonderful thing with like absolutely no

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downside like you know these kids
that were like rioting on their college

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campuses or protesting in the streets
or like you know getting stoned all day or

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you know having their whole hippie thing
or moving to communes and going back to

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the earth like they had they had
discovered a far superior way to live,

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right? They they had discovered a far
superior way to like coexist with nature

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and to be like to fight against the man
and to fight against you know evil

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corporations and you know you know fight
for the environment to fight for the

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planet fight for peace and the whole
thing and so it was this it was this

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like incredible kind of wave of of
positivity and look you know the a very

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good argument that there was a lot too.

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You know a lot a lot of people do
believe that and then um you know and

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then look it was like a time of great
cultural creativity that you know led to

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enormous amounts of like amazing art
that we still have today. Um and so that

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you know there there's a lot to like
about it. And then and then basically

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what happened is in 1969 is it sort of
came that the sort of positivity came to

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a screeching halt. Um and sort of the
movement you know basically like you

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know turned um you know very much
the dark side and you know that sort of

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began the long slide into the sort of

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1970s. Um and that that slide was

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basically a slide into you know
variously among other things you know it

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was a slide into like you know drugs
you know going you know very bad drug

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overdoses you know the shift from sort
of soft drugs to hard drugs um you know

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a lot of people who participated
in the the the sort of this cult sort of

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cultural movement in 60s ended up like
dying. Well, we'll talk we'll talk about

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the death later on because you know
the movie directly directly hits that. But

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like there's just an extraordinary
amount of death that followed you know

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degradation and then you know it it uh
you know turned into you know the sexual

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liberation it turns out has dark sides
and you know maybe it isn't so great for

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everybody and specifically maybe it
isn't so great for women. um you know

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it's like at least in some ways um and
then you know and then look you know in

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the 70s it was like you know Vietnam
went very bad and then the energy crisis

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and economic recession and then
inflation and you know just you know

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this very kind of you know bitter
divisive you know politics um you know

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in a lot of ways you know the sort
of the the beginning of the political kind

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of dynamic that we see playing out today
and so so in the 70s kind of things went

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really bad and then and then you know
the you know the book ending movie uh uh

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once upon a time is the movie sort
of about that pivot point I'll talk about

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that and then you know boogie nights
is maybe the movie on the other side of

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that, right? Which is like, you know,
once the culture is kind of sliding down

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the hill into chaos and and madness
and disease of death, you know, you know,

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kind of boogie nice captures that on
the other side, but for the purpose of

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today's discussion, we can focus on on
on 1969. And so if you read the history

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of time, basically what happened
was it was the Charles Manson murders uh

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specifically in Los Angeles and then
sort of on behalf of America, it was the

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Manson murders that basically were
the turning point. It's the the Manson

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murders are the thing that people point
to and they kind of say, "Oh, that was

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the moment when we all kind of realized,

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oh u like there's a dark side of

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this whole thing and like, oh my god,

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here we go." Um, and so and and so let's

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talk about that at length. Um,
let me just uh close off this this intro

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introductory part though with kind
of the most amazing thing about the movie

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that I found, which is, you know, if
you know the history of that period, you

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know about the I mean, the Manson
murders were super famous at the time.

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you know, they're, you know, they're
still famous in American culture. Kind

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of everybody knows that there was this
guy Charles Mansion that had this death

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cult. He was able to get these kids
to like go out and kill random people. Um,

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and you know, there's still like all
these, you know, questions like how the

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hell did he did he do that? Um, right.

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And so, uh, everybody knows that he
was kind of intertwined with Hollywood and

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intertwined with the the movie industry
and the music industry and and like he

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he was part of that whole thing. Um and

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so uh you know everybody kind kind of

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kind of knows that but I think that what
is um oh and then specifically for for

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people who know anything about
that there sort of famously the Manson

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murders are also known as the Sharon
Tate murders uh because there was this

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like incredibly you know vivaceious

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attractive bubbly you know enthusiastic

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00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,517
young blonde actress named Sharon Tate
um who at the time famously was was

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actually married to Roman Palansky who
was you know one of the leading you know

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kind of new you know Hollywood movie
directors of that time and they were is

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how basically this this new Hollywood
glamour power couple um and then Sharon

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Tate and among other people you know
Sharon Tate was was one of the people

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murdered it. So Quentyn Tarantino comes
out, you know, when he first announces

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the movie comes out and he says,
you know, Quentino Quinton Tarantino is

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going to make the movie about
the Charles Manson murders, right? And if

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you've seen, you know, any other
Tarantino movie like Pulp Fiction, for

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example, you're just like, "Oh my god,
you know, this is going to be a like

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00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,997
this is going to be horrible." like like
like the Mansa murders are bad enough,

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but like you know turning them into like

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a you know Tarantino style you know mass

200
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slaughter violence you know reservoir
dogs you know just like blood and guts

201
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you know uh exploit you know basically
super high exploitation movie as he had

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00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,957
done in the past u just like it
was a horror show and I was actually I was

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00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,757
actually personally worried about it cuz
my my wife got all excited to to to see

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the movie uh cuz you know she you
know because it's going to star Leo the

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Cabrio and Brett Kit and it's going
to be about Hollywood and it's about

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fashion and you know all this you know
design and all this creativity and she's

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like, "We got to go see this movie." And
I'm like, I'm like, "We can't go see the

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movie because you are going to be so
traumatized by what he puts on screen,

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but like you're never going to want
to ever see a movie ever again and you're

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going to hold it against me for the rest
of my life, but it didn't prevent you

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from seeing this movie cuz it's
obviously just going to be a complete

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horror show. Like, it's just going to be
a disaster." And actually Sharon Tate's

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family actually came out and and
basically said when this movie is first

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announced, basically said like, "Wait
a minute, hold on. like you know we don't

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want the memory of our you know of our you
know of our of our family member you

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know who you know we we still love you
know many decades later you know kind of

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you know turned into basically fodder
for you know basically Hollywood

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exploitation um and then there was this
like amazing thing that happened when

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nobody knew anything about the movie
which is uh Tarotino at least the way

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story is recorded Tarotino actually
let I think it was Sharon Tate's it was

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either sister and maybe sister or
something like that read read the script

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uh and immediately um the family did
a 180 um and they came right out and they

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said we completely approved >> [laughter]
>> thrilled that he's faking him. And I

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remember at the time reading that and I
was like, what the hell? Like [laughter]

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>> how how is it that he could possibly
get the that that the tape family of all

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people on board with putting this on
screen? And of course, you know, that

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that that leads to kind of that,
you know, the movie sort of turns into a

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Valentine a Valentine to Hollywood
and to America and specifically to Sharon

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Tate. Um you know, it's like it's like,
you know, it it really, you know, kind

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of restores her memory in in an amazing

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way. Yeah. Please. He did something very

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smart in the movie for those of us who
who love Tarantino and follow his work.

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So I think there that that was like
the common theme was like oh god this is

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going to be horrific right
and especially if you've read about if you

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know the Manson murders if you've read
about how gruesome they are like yes

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that was sort of the the dominant theme
but his you know he he had he made a few

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films between but like I'd say the last

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other fantastic Tarantino film was the

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revenge fantasy and glorious bastards

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which is of course you know again like
could have been I mean it is extremely

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gruesome but at the same time it's
a revenge fantasy of what could have

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happened. What could have happened if

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someone had killed Hitler? And so in the

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very beginning of the movie, there's
a scene with Leonardo DiCaprio also at the

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end, but there's a scene in the very
beginning where it shows all of his

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films and he has the famous flamethrower
from Englorious Bastards. And so if

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you're a Tarantino fan, you're like,
"Wait, wait, wait. Which direction are

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we going in? Are we going in gruesome
violence with no purpose, which I would

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argue Tarantino is always misunderstood
in that way, or are we going in a are we

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going in a different direction, a little
more fantastical, a little more what

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could have happened? Um, and so
for those of us with like the eagle eye in

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the theater, I think uh I think we kind
of we kind of knew, you know, especially

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as you said, like the family said, "Oh,
it's it's great. It's going to be fine."

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We kind of knew, okay, this this film
is not going to be nearly as bad. Um, and

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Tarantino is going to take us in a in a
different direction, but he did put that

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little Easter egg in there for us
in like the first 10 minutes of the film.

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>> So, it's funny you
bring that up because

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I of course totally missed that when
I was watching the movie. Um, I just

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thought it was like it was like a re,
you know, he So, so for people who

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haven't seen it, Leo Caprio plays a sort
of a Steve McQueen style movie star on

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1960s named Rick is kind of as the movie
starts, his kind of career is imploding.

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Um, he's trying to figure out how
to kind of turn things around or stay

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relevant to the times and it it does
it shows these clips from his his prior

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00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,357
movies in the universe. Um, and what
but I just figured it was just like a

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throwaway. Oh yeah, I see with the
flamethrower. That's funny. Haha. Um,

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like it didn't even for a minute occur
to me. I mean, you know, just since

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we're going to spoil it, we'll just say
the flamethrower plays a critical role.

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>> A pretty critical role.
>> Have you ever been happier to see the

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flamethrower get taken out um than

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at the at the end of that movie?
But yeah, I mean I I just I was like

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literally I I enjoyed the movie so much
when I was watching it, but I I did not

272
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know. I mean, I I knew it had to be
something amazing that I wasn't

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00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,797
expecting in order to get the Tate
family on board, but like I I I still

274
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was I I still was like sitting there
in a state of dread throughout the entire

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movie, you know, still anticipating that
he would somehow Anyway, so to spoil the

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movie, he he once upon a time
in Hollywood, he he basically he basically

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tells you the story of the man called
of Hollywood at that time and sort of how

278
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that all intertwined and he takes it all
the way up to the night of the murders,

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but then he he takes a left turn um
in the history as he does this alternative

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history. And so it and and so the the
the kid the Manson cultists who who in

281
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real life culture take in the movie they
they they go they go they go in the the

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house next door which is which which is

283
00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,397
Leo's house um with with and with Leo's

284
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,797
friend Brad Pitt uh and Brad Pitt's
character by the way I don't know you I

285
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don't know if you know this Kevin I'm
curious if you know the backstory on the

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00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,517
Brad Pitt character is it he doesn't
quite say this in the movie but it

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00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,237
explains a lot which is basically
Tarantino's conception of him is he's

288
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basically the most deadly man in the
world at that time. So he's he's like a

289
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,597
you know he plays not just a war hero
but like a greeter like you know super

290
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,197
highly decorated you know basically
super soldier uh who's who's become a

291
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Hollywood stunt man. Um and so basically
the um you know the the the mansion

292
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killer is basically walked exactly
to the wrong house because number one

293
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,077
they're up against this guy who
basically like you know spent the

294
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:10,237
preceding whatever you know 20 years you
know killing people for America. Um you

295
00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,277
know basically Captain America and then
and then number two it turns out Leo

296
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,157
still had the flamethrower
in his garage. Um, [snorts]

297
00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,517
>> well, there's also there's also the
backstory that you're you're not totally

298
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,837
sure how good Cliff is. Like there's
a whole backstory of did he kill his wife.

299
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,437
Um, which is actually in the film and
also in sort of the backstory, but like

300
00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,997
there he he is he is he is, you know, a

301
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:31,597
deadly, as you said, like a very deadly

302
00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,437
person. Um, but that final scene, um,

303
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,117
and yeah, there's no way you can
anticipate, like even if you knew, okay,

304
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,757
maybe it's not going to be as gruesome
or there's going to be some sort of like

305
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,437
revenge fantasy, there's no way you can

306
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,877
anticipate how genius like the run-up
to it is. And then also the final scene

307
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,677
because there's this whole other thing
that happens in the movie where you

308
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,597
forget that you're watching a movie
about the Mansims. like you forget that

309
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,277
you're watching this this horrific
like what what it's supposed to be and

310
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,237
there's a there's like a 30 minute scene

311
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,077
um of Rick Dalton who's the who's sort

312
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,637
of this you know um aging like he's

313
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,437
losing his place in Hollywood he sort of

314
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,397
you know is is is sort of a at a at
a loss for why he's no longer powerful

315
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,557
right like and and and he has this moment
where he stars in this like kind

316
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:23,117
of cheesy western with this like
11-year-old girl and it's like a movie

317
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,277
within a movie and And it is like
probably the best encapsulation of like

318
00:17:27,360 --> 00:17:30,957
what happens to actors in Hollywood.
So you kind of lose track of the fact it's

319
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,557
like here's Sher Sharon Tate and she's
at the Playboy Mansion. She's dancing.

320
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,757
She's this new generation, but here's
this old generation of like hyper

321
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:40,877
masculine figures who can't get work.

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00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:44,797
And there's there it's just a genius
movie within a movie where the little

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00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,677
girl says to him and it's probably like
one of the most memorable lines. She's

324
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,197
like, "That's the best acting I've ever
seen in my whole life." And I mean it's

325
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,397
like just even if they'd stopped the
movie there, it would have been just as

326
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,277
brilliant, right? But then it goes on
to this other sequence where you're like,

327
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,757
"Oh yeah, we're watching we're about
to see the most gruesome, you know,

328
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,837
possible like this. I mean, and you know,
I wasn't alive in 1969, but I can

329
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,037
imagine it's like if you know,
if Jennifer Lauren, if it happened to

330
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:11,917
Jennifer Lawrence or if it happened
to Margot Roby or Robbie, who's actually

331
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,397
playing her, right? It would just be
this horrific thing. Um, but you kind of

332
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,157
forget because there's all of these just
beautiful, hilarious sequences that run

333
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,757
up to it. You forget that you're
watching a movie that's supposed to end

334
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,677
in this horrific violence. Um, and of
course, I'll let you continue, Mark, but

335
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,877
it doesn't. It ends it ends in a different
type of horrific violence, but

336
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,277
not female on female violence that
characterized the the Manson murders,

337
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:37,037
which I think is is another kind of

338
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:40,317
subtext of of the of the film. Um, it's

339
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,317
just how how gory and violent the actual
episode is, but you you don't actually

340
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:47,677
see that. So, I'll let you continue, but
there whole other part of the Hollywood

341
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:49,437
story that's really fascinating.

342
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:50,797
>> Yeah. No, that's that's exactly right.

343
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:54,957
And by the way, pop quiz, Katherine, the
the the little girl the the little girl

344
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,397
actress, uh, who who was she in who
was that intended to be in real life? I

345
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,757
>> I I don't know, actually.
Um, >> Jodyie Foster.

346
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:03,917
>> Oh. Oh, is that Oh,
that's who she's supposed to be.

347
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,597
>> Yeah. Yeah. I didn't realize. Okay.

348
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,677
>> She's not under that name, but that's
basically the the character is supposed

349
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,997
to be Jody Foster. >> That makes sense.

350
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,477
>> And so, and I bring
that up because like

351
00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,277
representative of of new Hollywood.
So, so cuz so Jodie Foster was in that in

352
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,957
that era was like a rising biscuit
child star. Uh and then she she had her

353
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,037
breakup role in I think in um in Taxi
Driver um you know where she's just like

354
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:29,597
you know it's like incredibly revoly
you know acting performance uh uh and so

355
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,557
she's sort of representative of the new
of the new of the quote unquote new

356
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,757
Hollywood um with the much more
naturalistic like the actually

357
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,717
naturalistic acting style that took over
from the much more stylized style of the

358
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,797
50s and 60s. And so, so I bring that up
because to to your point, part of the

359
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,477
story there is Rick Dalton, you know,
basically trying to get out of basically

360
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,477
making clichéed haty genre stuff, right,
where he just plays the same tough guy

361
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,437
over and over again. Well, so so the
running joke up until that point is that

362
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,117
Rick Dalton starts started out his
career as like a tough guy movie star.

363
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,637
Um, and then basically, you know, over
the years like that that that archetype

364
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,317
was kind of fading in 1969. And so he
was increasingly being uh being cast as

365
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,677
the bad guy. Um, and then and you know
then the thing is you know the bad guy

366
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,397
you know gets like punch is not the guy
who punches and knocks other people out.

367
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,317
He's the guy who gets punched
and knocked out and he's sort of on this

368
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,837
dumber slide and he has absolutely no
idea how to adapt itself to this new

369
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,197
world. In fact, and again, and the way
the movie the way this intersects with

370
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,077
the other the other part of the movie is,
you know, uh is literally when Roman

371
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,597
Palansky and share a tape move in next
door, you know, to his character and he

372
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,277
and literally he's like, "Oh my god,
if I could just figure out a way to like

373
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,877
get invited over for like a barbecue
or something where I could just meet Roman

374
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,237
Pansky, who's like the, you know, the
the leading kind of new Hollywood movie

375
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,357
director of that time. If I could just
get captioned one of his movies, then I

376
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,557
could stay relevant, you know,
for the next decade." And he just had like

377
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:46,317
absolutely there was just absolutely no
reason for like Roman philosopher Sher

378
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,277
tape to give to give this Rick Dalton
character you know the time of day

379
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,797
because he just he represent the past
they represent the future um until of

380
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,757
course at the very end of the movie you
know Rick Dalton saves you know saves

381
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:59,517
her life um and then in that she you
know that's that's the significance of

382
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,357
of him being invited over at the end
of the movie is is sort of his entree into

383
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,757
Hollywood having basically been taught

384
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,837
by Jodie Foster as an 11-year-old in

385
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,277
actually how to act right [laughter]

386
00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:15,197
basically it comes together in it's
in such a genius way. Anyway, yeah. So, so

387
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,797
so basically like the the the sort
of macro the macro relevance of this just

388
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,357
to kind of restate the thesis is you
know like if the Manson murders were

389
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,437
were kind of where the cultural
revolution in the 1960s went bad then

390
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:31,277
once upon a time in Hollywood is sort of
the it's sort of the fantasy or the love

391
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:35,437
letter to a different America in which
that didn't happen right and and and and

392
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,557
basically things kept going in like
a much more much a much more positive

393
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:42,397
direction. Um, but by putting on screen

394
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,877
the alternate direction, my view is like

395
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,677
he really highlights how bad it was that
that's not what happened. And so that

396
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,717
the tragedy of the Manson murders was not
just the tragedy for the people who

397
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,237
were killed and for their families. Um,
and which is a profound tragedy, but the

398
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,677
tragedy was like for basically for all
of LA cuz like LA, if you talk to people

399
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,717
who were who were around during that
period, like things got dark in LA like

400
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,997
very quickly. Like people people were so
freaked out by the Manson murders, like

401
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,997
they didn't know how many other serial
killers were running around. They didn't

402
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,117
know how many other cults there were.

403
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,157
They like everybody all of a sudden had
to like lock their doors. Like people

404
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,197
stopped going out. Like it became
like and and by the way, this was the

405
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,157
beginning of the heyday of the serial
killer, you know, with Ted Bundy. And

406
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:21,357
you know, like it was the beginning
of this like wave of these things where

407
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,277
people got like really really seriously
freaked out. Um and and so that was the

408
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:27,997
other but but then just generally
in America that you know as I said like

409
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,197
that was the beginning of the downward
slide of the 70s. And so by by making

410
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,797
the what if and positive kind of you
know all you know counterfactual so

411
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,837
clear it sort to me it sort
of highlights and illustrates in in maybe

412
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,197
the way that nothing else has been able
to do kind of the darkness that actually

413
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,037
played out in real life. >> Totally.

414
00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:48,477
>> Totally. And and and like I I went
back and watched uh the beginning of the

415
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:52,637
sequence because it's actually a long
sequence of violence. Um but what I

416
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,997
remember so much I read the reviews
before not know you know they they try

417
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,317
to not have spoiler alerts and critics

418
00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,917
were very divided. It was like this is

419
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,277
so violent. This is extremely violent.

420
00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:08,237
And what what's funny about seeing it
in the theater um which was I'm so glad I

421
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,997
saw in the theater is that the reaction
from the audience and these are again

422
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,557
it's like if you've been opening weekend
these are people who like really wanted

423
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,037
to see this movie or are
Tarantino fans is extreme laughter.

424
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:22,237
>> Yes. >> As it is you
are laughing during the

425
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:23,917
most violent sequence for 20 minutes.

426
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,957
And what's what's really funny about
what's happening on screen too is that

427
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,597
Cliff Cliff who's the you know
the stuntman um that and again this is a

428
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,757
spoiler like turn this off. I'm going
to go into detail the he takes an edible

429
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,477
like or LSD I can't
remember if it's an edible or

430
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,077
>> smokes smokes an LSD cigarette.

431
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:45,037
>> Yes. So so right before so he is like
high as a kite when these guys come in

432
00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:46,397
which is also like a funny part of it.

433
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,557
And then and the other part that you
have to like Tarantino is so particular

434
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,037
about details and so the music that is
playing when they come in is actually

435
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,037
this like uh psychedelic rock band like
and and he shows the kind of transition

436
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:02,237
of the ' 60s through music through
the entire thing which is really important

437
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,797
but that scene he's listening to um uh
[snorts] the Supremes set me free why

438
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,317
don't you babe right like so it's this
perfect moment of like set me free and

439
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,557
these guys come in he's high and he's

440
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,837
like is this is this real? But but Cliff

441
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,877
Cliff's response is like laughter.
He's laughing at these women, right? And

442
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:21,997
these women, you know, they have their

443
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:24,557
their knives like they they are ready to

444
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,997
to do to do the deed, you know, and um

445
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,157
and and he's laughing. And I think it's
in some ways it's, you know, Tarantino

446
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,997
always has sort of these like takes
on like masculine violence and and you

447
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,437
know, can can you kind of can you can
you can take the power out of whatever

448
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,517
situation happened in history by just
like this extreme violence and like you

449
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,637
know it's about to happen and there's
like a I won't ruin the pit bull part,

450
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,557
but like there is something >> let's
ruin it. Let's ruin it. We're running.

451
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,037
>> Okay. Like he he
sixs his pit bull on on

452
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:56,557
these women, right? But it but the what

453
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,557
watching it again, you're like this
is it's fascinating because if if the

454
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,517
Manson had been met with laughter,
right? Like instead they were met with

455
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,957
these are the most evil. They're they're
you know they're they're they're taken

456
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,877
by the devil, right? Like they were met
with fear and and to Mark's point, like

457
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,797
that set off serial killers. Like it
gave power to this extraordinary evil

458
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,117
for for decades. And I think the point

459
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,597
of it is like what if Cliff, the most

460
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,637
masculine deadly man in the room, had

461
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,757
just been high and laughed and like,
you know, sick as pitull on on on these on

462
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,197
these women who, you know, are kind
of silly and high themselves. And like the

463
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,277
whole thing had become a comedy, which
it turns into like 20 minutes of just

464
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,357
sheer hilarity. Like just absolute
hilarity, even though it's the most

465
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,157
violent thing you've probably seen
in the last several years. He he he

466
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,357
the Bradford character beats a Himei to
death with a telephone and it's just the

467
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,957
funniest thing you've ever >> It's
like it's it's Yeah, it's like a

468
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,917
and the flamethrower shows up, right?

469
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,997
Like I mean it's it is there you could
not conceive of the type of violence. It

470
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,037
it meets it meets the most horrific
violence that we know is coming, right?

471
00:26:01,120 --> 00:26:04,237
And like that's the backstory
to this too is like you know what really

472
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,517
happened. So you have this weird
anthropolic response of you know what

473
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:13,117
actually happened and it's so tragic.
U was women on you know I always think

474
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,517
it's interesting that it was like
the Manson family right they called

475
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,077
themselves family it was a perversion
of the family and they actually killed a

476
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,917
woman who was 8 months pregnant starting
a family so it's like this horrific all

477
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,157
that's a whole whole other narrative to

478
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,637
this but like the fact that it's met

479
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,197
with even more extreme violence and and
at the time it was during you know it

480
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,037
was during me too as well so it
was violence against women but of course

481
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,917
everyone wants that violence to happen
because you don't want the alternative

482
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,197
to happen. So, it it's this very strange

483
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,157
um moviegoing experience u that is both
delightful but also like you know a lot

484
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,517
of mixed emotions that I think you know
probably that's why I think critics were

485
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,917
so divided on it. Um I loved it but that's
why I think critics were divided on it.

486
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,797
>> Yeah. And then if you if you kind of
telescope up you know one one notch it's

487
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,477
it's caffing your point. It's like it's
like the ultimate square in the form of

488
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,117
Rick Dalton who's like, you know,
still putting broil cream in his hair and

489
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,557
trying to be like, you know, kind
of James Dean tough guy, you know, you

490
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,677
know, when that's not what the world
wants. Um and then yeah and then you

491
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,237
know basically like I said you know
Captain America like an icon of the

492
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,317
American military you know at the time
you know by the way the time of Vietnam

493
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,517
in which you know the military was you
know not you know it was not viewed at

494
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,877
the level of respect that that American
culture has for it today you know the

495
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,157
the fact that those two you know end up
basically beating and roasting a bunch

496
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,917
of hippies to death at the height
of the counterculture. [laughter]

497
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,437
It's an incredibly crowd-pleasing movie
and as you said it kind of happened in

498
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,277
sort of the sort of you know very very
close to peak woke um kind of during our

499
00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:43,597
cultural revolution of the last decade
like it it's it's I I don't I don't know

500
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,997
if you I don't know if it's properly
characterized as like a reactionary

501
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,797
movie but it it it's it definitely not
it was definitely not the arc the moral

502
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:53,917
arc of of of other attempts
at arc during that time period.

503
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,757
>> Totally. Totally. And and and just even
the the final scene of as you said him

504
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,517
getting invited over and her sort of being
blissfully unaware this happens. I

505
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,597
mean, that's all magical of like she had

506
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,637
no idea that someone this happens.

507
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,957
>> Um, and you see like the camera sort
of pan up and it's like this is like it it

508
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,157
just genuinely feels like this is,
you know, in the same way that Glorious

509
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,077
Bastards was a revenge drama of what
could have possibly happened. This is

510
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,517
also like the once upon a time
in America story, like what could have

511
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,317
happened. Um, and and it was a weird
movie going experience in 2019 to be

512
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,917
surrounded by people who were laughing,
who loved it. You know, it it it kind of

513
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,037
went against everything you were reading
in the news, which is that like, you

514
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,197
know, no, no one agrees with with sort
of this this alternative history. I

515
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,517
mean, it was it's just a brilliant film.

516
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,357
Um, that that Yeah, I'm excited
there's a sequel coming, right, Mark?

517
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,557
>> There is indeed. There is a there's
a deed, which is going to be Let me also

518
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,477
say, number one, there's a sequel coming,
which, you know, it's going to

519
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,637
be just incredible, I'm sure. Uh but

520
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,837
also um there was a there Tarantino it's

521
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,717
so funny. So you guys may both remember
this but back before the internet and

522
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,477
even back before like DVDs and video
rentals if if you like if you if you

523
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,437
didn't see a movie when it was in the
theater like you didn't see it and like

524
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,317
it might show up on TV like two years
later if they would have cut all the

525
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,797
good parts out and they would have you
know stuck in all the commercials. Um

526
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,197
and so you like have basically in one
shot to see a movie in the theater and

527
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:15,837
then if you want to see it again and it
was out of theater you couldn't. And so

528
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,237
there was this there was this genre of
paperback novelizations um of of movies.

529
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,637
And so what you would do is you would
buy the paperback novelization and then

530
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,517
you could read that as many times as you
want. So you know my I had a shot these

531
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,477
things when I was a kid you know Star
Wars and all these things you read them

532
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,477
all like 14 times. Um and so anyway so
Tarantino being you know sort of a child

533
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,037
of this era you know like I am Tarantino
actually wrote a paperback novelization

534
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,997
of the movie Once Upon [snorts] a Time
in Hollywood and he specifically wrote

535
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:45,197
it as a paperback novelization. uh
and and so it came out in paperback um uh

536
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,317
and you know very much as an homage
to this but of course being Tarantino it's

537
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,437
it actually turns out of course it's not
just a paperback novelization it turns

538
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,437
out it's like an entirely new novel
um and so and and it's actually funny

539
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,597
because it doesn't it's it's it's it's
it's the novel is set in the same world

540
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,677
of the movie and has and and and goes
much deeper into the themes of the movie

541
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,197
but like he doesn't even get he doesn't
care at all about like having the plot

542
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,917
of the movie actually in the novel and so
he just throws it away right up front

543
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,517
in the novel oh yeah and then Rick Brick
Baldton like roasted a bunch of hippies,

544
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:15,837
you know, in his swimming pool that night,
right? So, like it's like the

545
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,197
plot's not the point for for the
novelization. So, the the novelization I

546
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,877
think I think is a as a very few people
have read it, you know, kind of just by

547
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,517
by virtue of how he how he came out
with it, I think, because I think people

548
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,997
didn't know what to make of like
literally a paperback novelization in

549
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:31,757
like 2022 or whatever it came out. Uh,
but I think it has he has a reasonable

550
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:33,837
claim on being a great American novel.

551
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,797
um be because and and the reason
specifically uh Kev I think you'd enjoy

552
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,477
it a lot because it it just it goes much
deeper into all the themes of you know

553
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,437
that we're talking about and so it
like it goes really deep into the

554
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,317
transformation of Hollywood that was
happening at that time you know it goes

555
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,957
really deep into the making you know
this the western show that happens

556
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,877
inside the movie which is actually
a real show called Lancer uh it was

557
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,677
actually a real show with with that you
know with that setup and with those

558
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,957
actors um and it goes much deeper into
into all the characters and it goes

559
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:00,877
deeper into the Manson family uh and so

560
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,117
it's um uh yeah it's really amazing and

561
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,917
by I should also say um uh yeah the the
movie does have a scene in which it is

562
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,757
left ambiguous as to whether or not
Cliff Booth killed his wife. By the way,

563
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,837
let me just say the wife played
by Rebecca Dehart um who just like I think

564
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,957
she's in the movie for like 30 seconds
and she almost steals the movie. Like

565
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,557
she's just hysterically funny and she
plays like the meanest like wife in the

566
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,997
world. She's just like hectoring and like
screaming at Brad Pitt and they're

567
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,077
literally on a fishing boat. Brad Pitt
has a spear gun in his lap. Um, and it's

568
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,957
sort of and in the movie it's it's like
set up as basically, you know, there was

569
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:37,597
a spear gun accident. Um, you know,
following this argument and and did did

570
00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,637
Brett Bit actually actually deliberately
kill his wife or not? Um, and of course

571
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,157
in the novelization it makes her fair.

572
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,037
Yes, he he in fact yes, he [laughter] >>
I think I think it's in the I think it's

573
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:49,437
in the novel. I think it's like yes,
Brad Pitt definitely killed his wife and

574
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,797
got married. Cliff Booth killed his
wife and got away with it. Um, and then I

575
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,117
think that I think I think he says
the novel he says and that was one of the

576
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,087
three times that Cliff Booth
committed murder, got away with it.

577
00:31:59,170 --> 00:32:02,077
>> [laughter] >> So anyway,
anyway, for those of you

578
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,717
who've only seen the movie, it turn
it turns it turns out the click poof

579
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,557
character actually yes has a real dark

580
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,237
side and and yes, the the hippies picked

581
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,917
the wrong house to stumble into

582
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,437
>> and and so is the we were talking
offline about how it's you know there's

583
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,757
some relevance to today. is is the
connection that you know the 2010s to to

584
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,317
some people was seen as a sort
of glorious march towards uh you know

585
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,917
progress and then you know whether it's

586
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,277
the 2020 Floyd riots or more recently

587
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,597
the Louis G you know mun murder or or
the murder of Charlie Kirk there's kind

588
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,277
of this moment of oh my god [laughter]
that this thing is gone off there is

589
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,317
that that kind of the >> so I
would say whichever side of the

590
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,757
political and social spectrum you're
on like the world that we live in today is

591
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,277
a much darker version of what everybody
thought we were going to be living in. I

592
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,757
mean like so for people who were like
100% on board with like the social back

593
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:53,837
up a second there to your point. So like

594
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:55,677
I think there's a very direct analogy of

595
00:32:55,760 --> 00:33:00,397
let's call it 1964 to 1972 or something

596
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,477
um with the re-election of Richard Nixon.
Um like that cultural revolution

597
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,277
that happened during the 60s kind
of the hippie Vietnam you know kind of

598
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,197
revolution. Um I I think what we what
we in America been through in the last

599
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,237
decade is sort of another version of that.
Like I think we we went through

600
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,157
our version of that. And it started
around I would date it to like 2015 2014

601
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,277
and then you know it basically that era
sort of ended November November November

602
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,637
2024. You know obviously if you're
on the right you're like oh my god thank

603
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,077
god that's over. Um and you know the world
can move on. If you're on the left

604
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,877
of course you're like oh my god what
just happened? How did you know how did

605
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,277
the revolution revolution go so bad?

606
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,397
That that is precisely what happened
at the at the end of the revolution in the

607
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,397
1960s and and specifically I mentioned
1972. So Richard Nixon was elected

608
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,197
president in 1968 and it was like
a hard fought race and very dramatic in

609
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,957
Minnesota right but then he was re-elected
in 1972 in a landslide like I

610
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,157
think was it was like a 49 state
landslide or some crazy thing like it

611
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:51,437
was just like an overwhelming landslide.

612
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,797
So it's like the American people
basically rose up and and basically said

613
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,357
yeah no more of this it's over. Um and

614
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:02,957
and and so we you know we we I mean that
the echoes are just like profound uh of

615
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,917
of how this played out and you know
and they're echoes right it's not exactly

616
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,877
comparable you know and Iraq and Vietnam
you know play different roles and so

617
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,517
forth and the economy you know developed
in different ways and you know Trump and

618
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,477
Nixon are different people and so
forth but and the social movements are

619
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,757
different uh you know and times have
changed but still like there there there

620
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,317
was there was a cultural revolution it
was you know either glorious or terrible

621
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,557
for some period of time and then get
ended right it was just like a sequence

622
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,357
of events happened where just like it
was over and you're out the other side

623
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,837
and you're in a new world. Um and and
and and and then I I would argue like

624
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,037
that's exactly what that that's exactly
the process kicked off in 69 with the

625
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,637
mass murders and then sort of book ended
with 72 with Nix's re-election and then

626
00:34:40,720 --> 00:34:43,917
kind of the slide into the 1970s
and then ultimately 1980s like that

627
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,117
transformation and then I I would argue
like that that's pre precisely the same

628
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,237
kind of transition that we're going
through right now. Um, and I I think

629
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,437
it's either it's either thrilling
or horrifying people in a very similar way

630
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,437
um that the that the end of the 60s uh
either thrilled or horrifying people.

631
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,277
Yeah, Katherine,
would you agree with that?

632
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,557
>> I would. I would.
Um, and I I also since

633
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:07,197
you mentioned Vietnam, I I want
to transition to the best Vietnam war film

634
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,157
ever made. >> Okay.
This is this is everything we've

635
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,277
said up until now is milk toast
as compared to the extremely controversial

636
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,797
plane that Katherine is about to make.

637
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,357
Please go for It is it is it is by far

638
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:21,837
the best Vietnam war film ever made.
Um and of course it incorporates every

639
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,077
Vietnam war film ever ever made in

640
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:25,757
including Deer Hunter, Full Metal

641
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,877
Jacket. Um you know once or or um Born

642
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,437
on the Fourth of July, Apocalypse Now.

643
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,237
The best Vietnam war film ever made
is Tropic Thunder. Uh but it also happens

644
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,157
to be one of the best films about
Hollywood. Um, actually our I would

645
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,757
actually say that Once Upon a Time
in Hollywood, while it is incredible film,

646
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,637
is more about America, but Tropic
Thunder is also about America in

647
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,157
different ways and reveals a lot about
America, but is is by far the best

648
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:55,997
Hollywood film ever made.
I'll let Mark talk about why that is. Um,

649
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,197
>> well, let's tell us date.
Traffic Thunder was what year?

650
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,757
>> It was 2008, which is actually very

651
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,517
important. Um because I think one of the

652
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,877
things that people forget is that um

653
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,677
2008 was also the year where we had
a a P from the Vietnam War running for

654
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,677
office against the first black president

655
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,597
in history. And that is in very

656
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,877
important context for all of the themes

657
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,877
dealt with inside of Tropic Thunder,

658
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,197
which of course is a comedy. Um it's a

659
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,717
satire, but it satarizes everything in

660
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,717
the kind of Before Times 2008. Um, but I
think that is a very important subtext

661
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,277
to what came out during an election year
where those two themes were on display.

662
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,797
Um, but I'll let Mark get into the
summary. Um, since it's also one of his

663
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,997
favorite films. >> Well,
it it is although I I I'm going to

664
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,917
defer so because you know I think it's
I think it's historically you know it's

665
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,877
maybe the funniest movie funniest
Hollywood movie the last 25 years or

666
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,517
something like it's just it's just like
an incredibly entertaining movie. Um,

667
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,877
and just for people to just have a sense
of like how much times have changed,

668
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,197
like the most I mean there's many
amazing things about it, but one of the

669
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,157
most amazing things about it is, you know,
the the great actor Robert Downey

670
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:04,557
Jr. uh plays the entire
movie of Blackface [laughter]

671
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,117
and not only plays the entire
movie of Blackface, like I would say

672
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,797
extraordinarily commits
for the bit. Um, [laughter]

673
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,477
>> yes, he's a method actor
playing a method actor.

674
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,877
entire movie in method playing another

675
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,117
method actor, you know, playing an actor

676
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:24,237
in in in a type of blackface. Um, again,
which which to your point on on um Once

677
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:28,237
Upon a Time in Hollywood when the film
was first announced, this was known that

678
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,077
that Robert Downey Jr. was was going to be
playing an actor in blackface. And as

679
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,477
you can imagine, it was the same thing
that happened with Once Upon a Time in

680
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,997
Hollywood, where it was like like the,
you know, in the same way that the the

681
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,157
Tate family was terrified of what would
happen in the film. Um there was a whole

682
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,477
kind of you know terror of what what
is going to like Robert Downey Jr. like

683
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:50,237
like like he's destroying his career
like who does Ben Stiller think he is

684
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,317
doing this movie right like no one
actually knew the backstory or how it

685
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,557
would be satarizing Hollywood actors who

686
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,877
will go through any extreme length to

687
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:03,677
win an Oscar. Um but but when you
get into the film it is handled so

688
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,797
beautifully indelically and actually I
was I was reading um I was reading about

689
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,837
sort of how they handled it um when they
were producing it which was that they

690
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,677
invited you know a number of members
of the NAACP. They invited, you know, a

691
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,477
number of different like very thoughtful
critics and said, "You have to see this

692
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,597
film first and see." And it was again
the same sort of thing where it's like

693
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,677
everyone saw it first and they said,
"Don't worry, it's perfect." Right? It's

694
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,357
hilarious. Um, and so I'll let you
continue, but it like they handled it in

695
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,157
a way. >> Wait, did did
they have to apologize in

696
00:38:30,240 --> 00:38:34,317
the 2010s? I remember Jimmy Kimmel had
to apologize for blackface uh or or one

697
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,557
of these people.
Did they get away with it?

698
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,517
>> Interesting point. So they didn't
So when it came out it was so clearly

699
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,757
satarizing um white actors
who were trying to win

700
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:47,917
an Oscar, right? Like so it was clearly
satarizing everyone. It it was not it

701
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,597
was you know it was it was sort
of universally beloved. So much so that

702
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,117
that Robert Downey Jr. was nominated
for an Oscar which is a whole other

703
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,037
backstory to how they made that happen

704
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:02,237
because it was kind of a continuation of
the movie that they as a joke petitioned

705
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,997
the Academy. you know, it said for your
consideration and the Academy actually

706
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:07,837
nominated him for an Oscar for the role.

707
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,877
So, it was so it was so like beloved

708
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,197
like what he did and how how how
brilliant the role was that no one

709
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,037
cared. But I believe it was like 2017
or 2018 when this sort of like new crop of

710
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:20,717
young people came through journalism and

711
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,437
said like this is horrible. They tried

712
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:28,077
to sort of cancel him. You might know
Mark better if how he handled it, but

713
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:32,237
like it it clearly they did not
cancel Robert Downey Jr. for doing a

714
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,037
satarization of of the role he played.

715
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,597
>> So just to just to fill this in and
then we we'll get to I want to get to the

716
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:41,997
Katherine your the Vietnam aspects of
this but uh Vietnam war movie aspects to

717
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,197
this uh but yeah so just specifically
what happened was correct me if I have

718
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:50,317
this wrong. Um Robert Downey Jr. a white
American actor plays a white Australian

719
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,357
actor >> [snorts] >> um who
is a method actor who I think was

720
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,317
sort of loosely inspired by Daniel D.
Le as sort of a, you know, sort of that

721
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,277
that kind that kind of sort of,
you know, super elite. You know, there

722
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,717
there's a couple scenes where you see

723
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:02,797
where you see where you see Robert out

724
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,397
of black face, but but dressed up with

725
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,917
as uh dressed up as the uh as the
Australian actor who like has like I

726
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,037
forget what's like translucent green
eyes or something as this very striking

727
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,877
striking look and like this very plumby
Australian accent. Um, and so it's a

728
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,557
white American actor in real life played

729
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,717
a white Australia actor playing a

730
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,397
southern black man in blackface

731
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:28,397
for the entire movie. On top of that,
I believe Robert Downey often often

732
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,517
improvises uh through throughout his
movies. And I I think a fair amount of

733
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:36,077
the uh uh I think a fair a fair amount
of the portrayal was was was him on on

734
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,197
the spur of the moment, which is which is,
you know, fairly incredible uh uh

735
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,997
when you see it uh because he he fully
fully inhabits the world. And then of

736
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,517
course he's he's actually in the movie
he's actually he's in you know in in in

737
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,317
the movie inside the movie he's in
this he's in a platoon with of course an

738
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,397
actual black guy who's a young black
actor whose name I can't recall but he

739
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,237
just like impress >> it
was such to him he's a br it's a

740
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,357
brilliant like the way they play off
each other is brilliant. His name in the

741
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,397
film is Alpuccino but Alpacino

742
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:06,797
>> Alino who's a rapper who's
a rapper who becomes an actor.

743
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,997
>> Yes. it and and there's a >> there's
a whole other >> Go ahead. Sorry.

744
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,797
>> Oh, no, no. I was gonna say there's
a whole other through line there of his

745
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,437
his role because I think one of the
things that everyone remembers of the

746
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,997
film is they have the fake um trailers

747
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,477
before the film starts and he is

748
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,477
Alpuccino the rapper and he's selling a

749
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:29,597
drink that he calls Booty Sweat. Uh
and and and what's so funny about like how

750
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,797
brilliant this film is because not only
like not only do they satarize Hollywood

751
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:37,117
in the film, they were like the first
Barbenheimer. Like what they did,

752
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,317
they're like, "We're going to market
this in so many funny ways." They did

753
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,357
incredible things before and after
the film. But one of the things that the

754
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,117
that they did was they made Booty Sweat

755
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,437
into an actual drink. Marketed it

756
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:52,237
through the entire Oscar petition. Like
they they went so far. I mean, the only

757
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,157
film that's done this as as exceptional
as Drop of Thunder was was Barbie. Um,

758
00:41:56,240 --> 00:42:01,197
but they they they they figured out how
to turn every aspect of this film into a

759
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,677
into marketing genius. The other smart
thing that they did, by the way, the one

760
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,797
of the actors that that Ben Stiller,
Ben Stiller plays this guy named Tug

761
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,517
Speedman, who is based on a dumb Tom Cruz.
His name is Tug Speedman, right?

762
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:14,957
Like, where did they get that name? It's

763
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,517
Tom Cruz. But they also have Tom Cruz in

764
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:23,837
the movie as as the producer who's based
on Harvey Weinstein. Uh, less less I I

765
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,837
can't remember his >> less Gman.

766
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,757
>> Less Grossman. Yes. Um, and so but they
didn't want anyone to know Tom Cruz was

767
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:33,037
in the film. So they actually sued
anyone any of the paparazzi who took

768
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:36,317
pictures of him before because they
wanted people to come to the theater and

769
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,917
not know that Tom Cruz was in it. And
of course he like wrote his entire role

770
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,637
like like he he to to your point
in improv like he improvised that entire

771
00:42:44,720 --> 00:42:48,237
role and wrote it. Like it was sort
of Tom Cruz's brainchild. I think they

772
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,797
originally offered him something else
and he's like, "No, no, no. I I want to

773
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,677
play Harvey Weinstein and it is genius,
but they did so many things to make sure

774
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,437
that the entire sort of cult of the
movie outside of the movie was like

775
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:03,837
Hollywood produced." Um, where you
to to to Mark's point, you have this, you

776
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,997
know, method actor playing a method
actor who is trying to get an Oscar

777
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,957
through his method acting who ultimately
ends up getting nominated for the Oscar,

778
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,957
losing to Heath Ledger the the year that

779
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,997
Ledger died posthumously. um when it was

780
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:23,037
awarded to him. But it it's like they
they could not have this is a 20-year

781
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,357
project. That's the other that's the
other very interesting thing about this

782
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,117
was like Ben Stiller has been working on
this since the 80s. And it was just that

783
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,797
year where they were finally able
to get it made and it is this brilliant

784
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:37,037
commentary on all of Hollywood.
And we can get into the Vietnam stuff too

785
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,717
because I think it's also commentary
on that. But it's it's it is the best

786
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,477
Hollywood film ever made even in the fact
that they were able to successfully

787
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,357
sway the Oscars. >> Right.
Well, it was also Catherine to

788
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,477
your point. It was also the recite
of the Tom Cruz image issues at the time

789
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,397
cuz this was after the sort of run
of controversy around him and psychology

790
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,277
and his personal life and all those
things. And there there was so this run

791
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,917
of very bad publicity. A lot of people
in the industry were worried that he was

792
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,677
not going to be a bankable movie star
anymore. And I I think this role in this

793
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,957
movie was basically his recovery
from that which which was pulled off

794
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,437
absolutely perfectly. And of course he
then went on to be an even bigger movie

795
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:13,357
star than before. >> Totally.
>> Yeah. So it's a great career

796
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,117
resurrection in in the middle of this.

797
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,157
Yeah. And then Yeah. Just just in terms
of like how how much times have changed

798
00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:20,317
or you know somebody once said that the

799
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,197
past is a is a foreign
planet or another country. Um

800
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,557
is yeah like you you had an American
actor being nominated for an Oscar for

801
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,117
for a character performed
at black blackface in 2008.

802
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:37,117
directed by a Hollywood filmmaker who's
obviously a genius but you know within

803
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,397
10 years was like he you know Ben Ben
Stellar subsequently became one of the

804
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,317
wokest Hollywood figures uh you know
in in the years that follow like you know

805
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,597
all all through the last decade like
Ben Stellar has been like you know to you

806
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:51,597
know to to the left of Shavara on every
social and political issue and so and I

807
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,917
I you know I I don't know I've never
met him I've met great admirer of his art

808
00:44:56,000 --> 00:45:00,157
but like I wonder how much of his shift
to the far left politically and socially

809
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,237
was a was a reaction having made this it.

810
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,597
>> Well, well, and the other thing
is everyone focuses on Robert Downey Jr.,

811
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:09,197
but there are like at least four other
untouchable things that happened in that

812
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:12,157
film. Um, so the the disability
advocates actually when the film came

813
00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,157
out, the the people who were most upset

814
00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:17,277
in 2008 were the disability advocates um

815
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,037
because of the um commentary on what's I

816
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,637
believe it's on what's eating Gilbert
Grape, right? Never like I'll just say

817
00:45:24,720 --> 00:45:27,037
>> oh and forest Forest and Forest Gup.

818
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,277
Yes. Yes. >> And Rayman and Rayman.
Yeah. Um um uh uh

819
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,877
Simple Jack. >> Simple Jack.
Yes. So the the the famous

820
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,957
line that is said is and and again I'm

821
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:38,957
I'm quoting the film, never go full

822
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:44,317
Um which was okay to say in 2008
except for the disability advocates um

823
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:45,517
who were who were very upset about it.

824
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,517
And of course, like they were sort
of on the fringe in 2008, but that was

825
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,117
actually the thing that that Ben Stiller
had to apologize for because they they

826
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,517
didn't they didn't test the film on

827
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,237
SimpleJack. But it was commentary from

828
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,957
from Robert Downey Jr. in blackface

829
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,357
saying everybody knows and then saying

830
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,837
the line, right? Because because Tug

831
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,397
Speedman doesn't play it as he should.

832
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:12,077
Um he he he does the full Leo DiCaprio
what what's eating Gilbert Grape sort of

833
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,117
like, you know, full on, right?
He doesn't do Rain Maker. But there's two

834
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,037
other things that happen. Um, so the the
other thing that I think people didn't

835
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,677
realize is that be it is so much of a

836
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,157
commentary on Vietnam War film because a

837
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:29,117
lot of Vietnam war memoirs in later
years have been proven to be completely

838
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,397
disingenuous, right? So it's like people
who said they went to Vietnam didn't go

839
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,717
to Vietnam. And so in the storyline and

840
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,517
the film, the guy whose memoir, Tropic
Thunder, the movie is actually based on,

841
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,077
>> right, >> is a is a member
of the Coast Guard who

842
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:46,157
never got sent to Vietnam who worked
for the sanitation department, right? Like

843
00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:47,757
that's like a whole theme in the movie.

844
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,197
And so there's this like brilliant
commentary also on like, you know,

845
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,157
veterans issues and I think some
veterans groups were upset about it.

846
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,557
There were also people who were very
upset with um Tom Cruz's portrayal. Um,

847
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,837
and it was, you know, it was before we
kind of all knew who he was betraying

848
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,237
and everything, but there were people
who were very upset that they felt that

849
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,157
that was the stereotype. So, like pretty
much every character, like there was

850
00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:11,757
there was people who were and again
these were cringes. It wasn't like mass

851
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:13,517
commentary on this, but there like they

852
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,197
managed to insult like every protected
group uh in a way that like ev like

853
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,237
everyone kind of was like, well, yeah,
but it's it's satire, right? So, it it

854
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,237
was a totally different time in America,
but it wasn't just um you know, focus on

855
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,757
on race relations. I mean, it was on,
you know, we had a again, we had a

856
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,597
Vietnam P running for president that year

857
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,637
>> and and basically a mockery, like
the greatest mockery of Vietnam film ever

858
00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:42,317
made. So, in some ways, it's like
this film was just like so perfectly timed

859
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,157
for the era we were living in.

860
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,397
>> Well, we still have to this day, let's
not names on on a on a otherwise a fun a

861
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:51,597
fun podcast, but there there are sitting
United States politicians in in serious

862
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,957
offices who like literally
faked Vietnam War Records.

863
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:59,197
>> Like that like that's not over. like
that's actually still the case. Um, and

864
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,317
so to to your point like you know there
there were many people obviously who

865
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,477
served very honorably in Vietnam and then
there were people who like made up

866
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,797
completely fake stories and wrote them
the rest of their career. Um, and like

867
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,917
you know that Yeah. So the movie takes
like it's your point movie among other

868
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,917
things takes direct aim at that >>
and I I believe the guy wears a hook the

869
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,677
whole film with glasses [laughter] hand.

870
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:19,277
I mean like there's like this movie is

871
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,157
so brilliant. It's so brilliant and the

872
00:48:22,240 --> 00:48:25,597
levels of of commentary um just are are

873
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:29,917
remarkable to this day. >> Yes.
Yes. And so yes. Yes. Cute. Yes. I

874
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,757
mean just like so yeah maybe this is
book ends the the previous previous

875
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,357
conversation of just like Yes. This is
clearly made before the culture before

876
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:39,197
our version of the cultural revolution.

877
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:43,357
Um and so it's it's it's like a it's
like it's like an ancient artifact. Um

878
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,517
uh um like I say only now are we
reemerging into a world in which a movie

879
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:50,717
like that could be made like for a movie
like that for the last probably what 13

880
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,917
years or something would have been
totally off limits. Um and we're coming

881
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,077
out into a world now where movies
like that can get made again.

882
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:57,437
>> Yeah. Jimmy Kimmel
is not going to bring

883
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,157
back the man show uh [laughter]

884
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:05,117
or return to his uh his his roots. Um >>
for people who followed Yes. For people

885
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:08,717
who don't get the reference, for anybody
who followed the recent Jimmy Kimmel uh

886
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,717
sort of affair and all of the outrage,
uh it is worth going on YouTube and just

887
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,997
yeah, looking at clips from a Jimmy
Kimmel show 20 years ago, which was

888
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:21,117
literally called The Man Show. Um and uh
to just to get a sense of the uh the the

889
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:25,197
long and twist the long and twisty road
that some of our uh some of our highest

890
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:27,037
most famous public figures have followed.

891
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,757
>> And also a tale of a tale of two
comedians, right? Because it's him and

892
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:31,517
and Adam Corolla, right? And it's like

893
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,797
their their careers have detoutored
dramatically since since the show.

894
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,477
>> Yes, that's right.
>> Two other films we wanted to discuss uh

895
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:42,157
were Oenheimer and Fight Club.

896
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,317
>> So, let's start with let's start
with let's start with Oppenheimer just

897
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,517
because it's it's more it's it's more
recent. So, I I I will make the case.

898
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,397
So, I'm a I'm a you know enormous
Christopher Nolan fan. I've seen all his

899
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,477
movies. I love all his movies. I I think
they're really tremendous. Um you know,

900
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,397
I I think that I you know, let me say
this. I'm I think Tenant is one of the

901
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:03,597
best movies I've ever seen. Um, and like
I I I I sat through Tenant with a giant

902
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,397
smile on my face the entire movie.
Like I just thought that was just like

903
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,197
absolute magic. Obviously I loved
Inception. Uh, I loved many of his

904
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,757
movies. Um, and I think Oenheimer was
like an incredibly well-made movie. Um,

905
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,717
and had, you know, incredible
performances and was was like, you know,

906
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,437
put together really well. It was, you
know, tremendously interesting to watch.

907
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,477
I I I I will argue that it did not re
reach our level of capital A art. Uh, I

908
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,157
think it it actually quite badly fell
short um on sort of uh I would say

909
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:30,957
morality and um and uh and ultimately

910
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,277
and and in importance uh to our culture.

911
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,317
But uh yeah, let me I'm be happy to get
my feel on that. But let me just start

912
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,117
by saying C Katherine, would just out
of the gate, would you agree with me on

913
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,437
that or would you like to would you like
to take that would you like to take the

914
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,117
pro side that Oppenheimer was great art?

915
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,037
No, I I I agree with you, but I probably
I probably concur like I probably have

916
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,437
different reasons um than you as to why

917
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:51,597
I didn't think it worked like and I

918
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,877
should I should preface it with like I
I had hyped this movie so much where my

919
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:59,917
expectations might have been so
ridiculously high that when I finally

920
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,837
saw it I was like me. But I do think
it's interesting Robert Downey Jr. was

921
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,237
all he won the Academy Award finally
for Oenheimer. He deserved it for Tropic

922
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:12,077
Thunder. He was fantastic in the movie,
but I will say he deserved it for Tropic

923
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:14,877
Thunder. And if not for Heath Ledger,
he would have won it for Tropic Thunder.

924
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,837
And I feel like that that would have
been really the role he should have won

925
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,277
it for, but he was fantastic
in Oenheimer as well. So to your point,

926
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:26,077
like there there were there were many
good uh performances. My my sort of

927
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,397
criticism is probably different than
yours, but it probably has a lot more to

928
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:31,517
do with like the actual sort
of storytelling and film making than the

929
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:35,037
actual um content of of the of the work.

930
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:36,637
>> Okay, got it. Yeah.
So I because I would

931
00:51:36,720 --> 00:51:39,837
say so for people who haven't seen it,
we're going to spoil it. So, uh, Robert

932
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,157
Robert Robert Downey plays, uh, a real

933
00:51:42,240 --> 00:51:44,557
life guy named Lewis Strauss, uh, who

934
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,357
was a, um, he was a very high ranking

935
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,757
like sort of important person
of the of the of the 1950s, 1960s in the

936
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,197
government. Um, and, uh, ended up I
forget the exact role, but basically

937
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:59,757
ended up overseeing um, uh, Oppenheimer
having a security clearance stripped and

938
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,557
and basically being booted out of the
out of the military-industrial complex

939
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:07,037
after after, you know, basically leading
the creation of the atomic bomb. Um, and

940
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,637
the the movie kind of goes through that
whole story. Um, uh, and you know, it's

941
00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:13,437
a fantastic performance. All the all I
mean, look, all the performances in the

942
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,437
movie were fantastic. Uh, Jillian Murphy
was just outstanding as Oppenheimer and

943
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,477
and then was it Benny, I think it's
Benny Safy, one of the Safety brothers,

944
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:25,437
uh, played um, Edward Teller um,
and like almost just stole the movie just

945
00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:28,637
with that portrayal. Um, and again, you
know, a real person, the creator of the

946
00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:30,877
later the creator of the hydrogen bomb.

947
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,477
Anyway, so fantastic performances,
fantastic direction. Um I I will argue

948
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,037
my my critique of the movie though it
involves the following claim which is

949
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:38,877
that Louiswis Strauss
is actually the hero of the movie.

950
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,157
>> Yes. May maybe go into that history
so people understand um because that is

951
00:52:42,240 --> 00:52:44,157
definitely not the takeaway from the film.

952
00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:47,597
>> Yes. That is not what the film intend
uh uh you know the film intended I think

953
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,477
the film in see if Katherine would agree
with this. The film intended to contrast

954
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,877
basically a great man Oppenheimer to
basically a u an an as an an aspirate to

955
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,917
greatness who you know fell badly short
in in the Louis Dra character who sort

956
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,597
of brought the great man low and in a in
a fun fundamentally unfair way. And then

957
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,037
it sort of the movie sort of sets up
both uh Oppenheimer and actually also

958
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:09,677
specifically Albert Einstein as sort
of the key moral authorities um of of the

959
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,957
era with respect to use of nuclear
weapons. Both both claims of which I

960
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:17,277
believe are like deeply incorrect um on
substance. Um and this is my critique of

961
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,637
so my critique of the movie is not in it
execution or any of the performances. My

962
00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:24,237
critique is the morality of the movie I
think is very badly upside down. Um and

963
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,877
and it's upside down in a way that kind
of flatters our current politics but

964
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,997
like is very badly upside down in terms
of what actually happened at the time.

965
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,757
Um and so the the movie basically tells
the story of course Robert Oenheimer the

966
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,037
the sort of person who ran the the
Manhattan project created the atomic

967
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,997
bomb which was then you know at least
historically gets credit for you know

968
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,837
helping to end World War II you know
when when when the US dropped dropped

969
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,117
you know there won't be only two uses
of the atomic bomb in wartime you know to

970
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:51,677
date where you know the US dropped
dropped a bomb on Japan twice in 1945

971
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,477
and you know and there you know there's
even still to this day debate about this

972
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,917
but you know generally accepted history
I think is that that you know that ended

973
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,357
the the the Pacific theater conflict,
you know, sooner than it would have. It

974
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:04,477
it prevented the need for a land
invasion of Japan, you know, you know,

975
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,437
conceivably, you know, saved like
a million lives or something like that.

976
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:11,437
Now, by the way, it was dropping
the atomic bomb on two civilian cities,

977
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,957
right? So, again, you know, like
the morality of the time was, you know,

978
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,997
quite a bit different than, you know,
than maybe ours today, but but anyway,

979
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:20,797
so that's that's kind of the history
of it. And then, you know, famously, the

980
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:24,317
Manhattan Project was sort of this
assembly of of sort of the finest minds

981
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:27,837
uh in America. Many many of whom by the
way were you know refugee you know not

982
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,237
not up I'm up and I character actually
is a is a is a in in the movie in in

983
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,597
reality and in the movie is German
Jewish whose you know had who his family

984
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,917
had arrived much earlier um and but then
a lot of the other key members of the uh

985
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,117
Manhattan project you know kind of been
one of the great twists of irony were

986
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:46,797
Hungarian Jewish refugees from you know
from from basically the Nazi kind of

987
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,237
rampage through Europe you know who came
to the US and and and basically you know

988
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:54,637
helped arm up the US as which Edward
Teller was an example of that um and So

989
00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:57,117
anyway, so the movie tells this,
you know, kind of the amazing story of of

990
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:58,877
the Manhattan Project, but specifically

991
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,757
in the arc of of Oppenheimer, um I guess

992
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:06,877
I would say that the the the the
conventional Let me back up for a sec. I

993
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:09,517
think the first half of the movie I
think is actually quite historically

994
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:13,437
grounded and I think has like I I
like I at least I agreed with this

995
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,717
interpretation of history. And so is the
following. So the first half and I think

996
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:18,717
the movie is maybe a little bit
schizophrenic and I should give it a

997
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,357
little bit more credit than I than I was.
But like the first half of the

998
00:55:21,440 --> 00:55:25,997
movie is actually a it's one of the only
recreations on film of what American

999
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:30,317
elite culture and society and American
um uh research establishment of kind of

1000
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,277
the leading experts at the time
the 1920s and 30s like how thoroughly

1001
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:35,757
saturated that that world was communism.

1002
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:40,317
Um and and specifically it sort
of recreates uh you know this sort of the

1003
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,197
there's actually there's actually a joke
in the movie there's a line in the movie

1004
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,677
that's sort of one of these one of these
jokes that's not really a joke which is

1005
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,277
the joke is you know cuz the a lot of
the movie takes place as is set up as at

1006
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:54,077
UC Berkeley um and uh there's sort of
a joke a joke in the movie which is like

1007
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,277
you know well you know you know it's so
and so on the Berkeley faculty you know

1008
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,077
is a communist somebody else will says
yes like half the Berkeley faculty are

1009
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,477
communists like every like everybody
knows that like it's just completely

1010
00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,837
taken for granted and of course you know
the the politics of that aside the issue

1011
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:09,197
becomes, okay, now they're working
on a classified weapons program. Um, you

1012
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:12,477
know, the US is, you know, is kind of
variously at odds with not just Germany,

1013
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:16,397
but also with Soviet Russia. Um, and,
you know, there's this very big concern,

1014
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,437
you know, we're, you know, the the
this effort is is is inventing this, you

1015
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:22,397
know, super weapon. Uh, and there was a,
you know, very high degree of concern

1016
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,277
that the the secrets of of the atomic
bomb were going to, you know, just walk

1017
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,397
their way out the out the door from Los
Alamos. were going to end up at, you

1018
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,837
know, bad people's hands, you know,
and one fear obviously was that they'd end

1019
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,437
up in Hitler's hands, but another fear
was they would end up in Stalin's hands.

1020
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:40,317
And by the way, spoiler alert, that's
exactly what happened. [laughter] So So

1021
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:44,957
in fact, the nuclear secrets will walk
right out the door. Um and um you know

1022
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:48,477
and and basically the both the the the
concepts of the atomic bomb and then

1023
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:52,637
actually the specific wiring
instructions uh for the atomic bomb were

1024
00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:55,437
actually walking right out the back
door of Los Alamos into into into into

1025
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:58,877
Soviet's hands and Stalin got the bomb
very quickly after that and it was

1026
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,037
directly derived from the work
that actually happened on the Manhattan

1027
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:04,317
project. And so it turned out
the Manhattan project like it really was

1028
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,357
riddled in the contra spies and there
there's these famous names in history

1029
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:10,317
like the Roseberg and David Greenlass
that you can go through and read about

1030
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,917
if you want. But like it like
the the fears of all of the people who are

1031
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,637
worried about this were actually correct.
It is actually what happened.

1032
00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,077
Um by the way there's a character
in the movie Boris Pash who is sort of the

1033
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:23,277
security officer at the Manhattan
Project both in real life and in the

1034
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,157
movie. In the movie, he's sort
of portrayed as this like guy with

1035
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,597
basically essentially a stick up his
butt like this like guy who's like, you

1036
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,637
know, like constantly like, you know,
cross-examining and not trusting the

1037
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,197
scientists and thinks that I'm
Oenheimer's probably a spy and the whole

1038
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,917
thing. He's kind of portrayed as this
like over the top, you know, kind of

1039
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,357
thing. But like if you if you go if you
read his Wikipedia entry of like what

1040
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,557
his life story had been up until that
point, he's another one of these guys

1041
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:47,357
where just like he has just this
incredibly impressive backstory of like

1042
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,277
service to the country at fighting
commiss. Um and then you know and then

1043
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,917
like you know whether he was right about
Oenheimer we could talk about but like

1044
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,517
he was right that like Los Alamos would
run with cognitive spies and this is

1045
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,037
going to lead to catastrophe you know
with with Stalin getting the bomb. Um

1046
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,677
and then you know the Strauss character
was also very worried about that and

1047
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:06,717
again you know outside of whether he
was right about Oppenheimer per se. He was

1048
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,237
he was right about the he was right
about the broader issue. Um and so so so

1049
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:14,157
that is what actually that that is what
actually happened. Um, and so like all

1050
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:17,197
of the security concerns that are kind
of a setup to what you know is sort of

1051
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,677
portrayed as the persecution of Robert
Oppenheimer, like they were all

1052
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,677
completely legitimate security concerns.

1053
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,397
And in fact, the worst case scenario
actually did happen. Like all the

1054
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,757
secrets like walked right out the door,
went straight to Stalin. The first

1055
00:58:27,840 --> 00:58:31,117
Soviet, we now know this, the first
Soviet atomic bomb was wire for wire

1056
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,957
compatible with the US Nagasaki bomb,
right? So, so, so, so, so they got

1057
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:37,437
literally the wiring threats. And, you
know, for for people who have read about

1058
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:40,157
nuclear weapons, like it's actually very
hard to detonate a nuke and they have to

1059
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:44,397
be wired in a very specific way. Um it's
like you can't they're very difficult to

1060
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,837
set off and like the Soviet spies
on the Manhattan project literally like

1061
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:52,557
transferred that information to to to to
Russia B nuclear power. Um and so anyway

1062
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:56,237
like within that there's this arc
of basically Oenheimer you know was he or

1063
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,917
was he not there's one arc actually
which is was he or was he not himself a

1064
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:03,357
Soviet asset which is it's generally
viewed historically that he wasn't

1065
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,757
literally a Soviet asset although I
think there are still questions around

1066
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,717
that in fairness and we could talk about
that but then there's just this broader

1067
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,077
thing which is even if he wasn't like
was he trustworthy and could could he be

1068
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,117
relied upon and then there was this
specific thing that actually happened

1069
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:19,117
which the movie presents a version
of that I think is not is my understanding

1070
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:23,837
history is not correct but which
Oppenheimer basically u worked his butt

1071
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,677
off to to deliver the atomic bomb
for the purpose of beating Germany and

1072
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,517
Japan. Um but then immediately upon
that happening, the US weapons program

1073
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,477
shifted into making the hydrogen bomb
which was going to be the you know the

1074
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:37,357
big one that was going to be used
ultimately you know ultimately was going

1075
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:40,957
to be used in the cold war you know
as as a deterrent against the Soviet Union

1076
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:45,597
you know at a project led by Edward
Teller um and um and and the accusation

1077
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:48,717
always was Oenheimer deliberately slow
roll the development of the hydrogen

1078
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,077
bomb like he he tried to prevent that
from happening of course the the the you

1079
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,957
know and you know Oppenheimer's version
of the story is it's one thing to like

1080
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,637
have a nuc take out a city if to end
a war it's another thing to have a nuke

1081
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,597
that can take out the planet. Uh,
you know, and and and so like, you know,

1082
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:03,757
should we really be doing this?
But there's another version of the story

1083
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:06,397
which is you were completely in favor
of beating Germany and Japan and then but

1084
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,117
the minute it came to beating the Soviet
Union, you [snorts] know, you got cold

1085
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,317
feet. Hm. You know, isn't that
interesting? Right? That that that

1086
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:15,277
that's the thing that you didn't want
to have happen. And then there's just the

1087
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:19,917
reality that like Oppenheimer's
background and political activities and

1088
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,117
like all of the people around him
including his wife and his girlfriend

1089
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,197
and his brother were actual like I don't
believe this to be the case. I think his

1090
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,357
wife, his girlfriend, and and his
brother were all actual communists, like

1091
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:35,277
actual capital C carry communists.
And then Alenheimer himself was like

1092
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,477
embroiled to communism and it's it's
sort of communist, you know, sort of

1093
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,077
adjacent organizations, you know, his
entire life. He he's not known ever have

1094
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:43,277
been a member of the communist party.

1095
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,877
Although again there's there's there's
u there's ambiguity there because the

1096
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,997
Soviets had a practice of having their
best placed assets actually never become

1097
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,317
members of the communist party because
of course they were trying to protect

1098
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:55,357
them against exactly the kind of
persecution that Oppenheimer got got got

1099
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:59,197
leveled against him. U so anyway so
in in the movie ultimately his security

1100
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:03,037
clearance gets gets stripped and he sort
of resigns to disgrace. The movie paints

1101
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,397
this as like a great act of moral
heroism on his part where basically he

1102
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,957
wanted credit for the little bomb,
but he didn't want the big bomb to happen

1103
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,317
and certainly didn't want to have
anything to do with it. Um, you know,

1104
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:13,917
and and look, you know, he's dead.

1105
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:16,397
They're all dead. Like, you know,
I I don't know that we'll ever know like

1106
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,797
what what what lay in their hearts,
but there are very interesting questions

1107
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,997
around this. Um, and then there's
the the and then there's my most stinging

1108
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:25,277
indictment of the movie, which
is Einstein was the exact opposite of

1109
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:27,597
immoral exemplar. Uh, Einstein was a

1110
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:32,477
Stalinist. like Einstein was like
a fullon like Einstein was proto Stalin

1111
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:35,757
like not even just procism was actually
like pro Stalin and Einstein thought but

1112
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,797
like American democracy was like not
going to cut it and like we clearly

1113
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,437
needed to get to communist dictatorship
and there's a there's a book that goes

1114
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:44,957
through this called when reason goes on
holiday uh that came out a few years ago

1115
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:47,117
that kind of goes through all
of Einstein's writings and speeches and

1116
01:01:47,200 --> 01:01:51,197
kind of reconstructs this history and so
the movie kind of presents Oenheimer and

1117
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:54,717
Einstein as like the adults
and especially Einstein as like the moral

1118
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,637
adults in the room uh to a degree that I
just think is like basically at this

1119
01:01:58,720 --> 01:02:01,597
point bizarre and the and the reason
it's bizarre is because you know the

1120
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,477
whole thing is set up of like oh my god
what if the atomic bomb destroys the

1121
01:02:04,560 --> 01:02:07,757
world oh my god you know this whole
thing and all politics involved in that

1122
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,797
so the beginning and so forth but like
we're sitting here 80 years later and

1123
01:02:10,880 --> 01:02:13,757
and the thing that we know today and I
don't know that any of us would choose

1124
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:16,397
to have had the events play out this way
and maybe the world would be better

1125
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:19,277
without the bomb or whatever but like
what we know today is World War II

1126
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,917
didn't happen um and so basically
like everybody everybody in sort of the

1127
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:27,517
military political establishment in 1945
kind of took it for granted that there

1128
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:30,637
was going to be World War II with the
Soviet Union at some point. Um, and it

1129
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:33,037
was going to be a land war, you know,
in Europe and around the world and it was

1130
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,517
going to kill probably, you know, on the
order of 200 million people and it was

1131
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:36,637
just going to be absolutely devastating.

1132
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:41,037
And like, you know, in any other era
like of of of sort of geopolitics, like

1133
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,197
that almost certainly would have
happened given how given how tense

1134
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,117
everything got, especially in the ' 60s
and ' 70s. Like, literally, it didn't

1135
01:02:47,200 --> 01:02:50,077
happen. Like World War II is is is the dog
that didn't bite. And and the reason

1136
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:52,397
World War II didn't happen is sort of,
I think, fairly obvious, which was

1137
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:54,157
mutually assured destruction, right?

1138
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,797
that the fact that both sides had nukes
basically meant that neither side could

1139
01:02:56,880 --> 01:02:59,757
go to war with the other and that resulted
in 80 you know it resulted in a

1140
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:03,437
cold war but not a hot war. Um,
and so I, you know, I think if you kind of

1141
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,477
stack up Oppenheimer and Teller
and these guys, you kind of say, you know,

1142
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:08,397
by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by,
by, by by by building bombs that could

1143
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:11,917
destroy the world, they prevented at least
one, you know, major world war, if

1144
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:15,597
if, you know, by the way, if if not many.
Uh, and by the way, the existence

1145
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,557
of nukes may prevent another world war
for 500 years, right? You know, we don't

1146
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,517
know yet, but like, you know, like that
that mutually assured destruction is is

1147
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:26,397
is still in effect. They may be they may
be uh they may be causing us to not have

1148
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,197
a hot war with with China, right?
The fact that both the US and China have

1149
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,637
nukes. Um, and so anyway, so and and
by the way, that's all debatable and you

1150
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,997
could argue that, but like that's the
argument that's the argument that ought

1151
01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:39,517
to happen like especially with what we
know today. And I just thought the movie

1152
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:41,837
like I thought the movie just like
really cheated on the morality of it

1153
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,717
because it kind of presented this as slam
dunk that the nuke was bad and that

1154
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,037
these people were bad and the whole
thing was bad and that Einstein was like

1155
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:51,837
a or sorry that both Einstein and Oenheim
were moral heroes in some extent

1156
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,557
kind of trying to line up against
this and I just thought that that really

1157
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,637
cheated the audience. I I I think uh I
think you and I are much closer on our

1158
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,557
critique of it. My my sense is very
similar to yours that it started out

1159
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:06,397
very strong, right? Like like your your
the portrayal in Berkeley like it was a

1160
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,797
very interesting, you know, like you
kind of you saw this complex figure and

1161
01:04:10,880 --> 01:04:14,557
complex character and then there's this
whole middle section um on the Manhattan

1162
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:18,237
Project that kind of culminates in what
I would say is like incredible like

1163
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:22,557
visuals and sound. Like actually like
the movie excels in both score and

1164
01:04:22,640 --> 01:04:26,397
sound. And if you saw it in a theater,
you were like the the the sound editing

1165
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:28,877
is like the thing that won the Oscar,
right? I think they won 10 Oscars. I

1166
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,797
mean, they won everything, but it's like
like sound editing and score like just

1167
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:35,517
incredible movie making. And then to

1168
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:39,837
your to use your word schizophrenic like
the third part which is all about you

1169
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,437
know Robert Downey Junior Junior's
character being like a villain. It sort

1170
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,077
of ends with this you know there's
this brilliant scene that I think everyone

1171
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,717
remembers where they show him giving a

1172
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,517
speech to all the people at Los Alamos

1173
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:57,197
and then they show like him envisioning
bodies um in in you know in in Hiroshima

1174
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,717
right and you kind of see the justosition.
you see him sort of losing

1175
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:05,517
his his sort of um his his sort of you
know con conviction that he did the

1176
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:09,197
right thing and I feel like if they had
just stopped the movie there it would

1177
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,637
have been the commentary on like okay
like we don't really understand his

1178
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:16,077
legacy but instead they had to tie it up
with it was almost like if you know for

1179
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,717
for writers and artists like if you
don't know how to end something you kind

1180
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:21,597
of tie things up with neat bows that
have nothing to do with the thing that

1181
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:25,597
happened before and it felt like the
third section on the security clearance

1182
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:29,837
and on him being a hero was almost like
the filmmaker's apology like actually no

1183
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:33,277
no I'm going to side I'm actually going
to paint this for everyone and side that

1184
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,237
he was actually a good man and and
there's there's no sort of moral

1185
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,837
ambiguity about this this figure like he
was actually a good man and actually the

1186
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,997
the real villains are the national
security hawks and the people in

1187
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,117
Washington and the bureaucrats and like
and then it was just this sort of

1188
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:50,637
portrayal of you know the evil
bureaucracy coming for the beautiful

1189
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,997
scientists and and it sort of mimicked
I think also a conversation that was

1190
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:55,837
happening in 2023 when it came out which

1191
01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:01,197
is all of these great AI I scientists
basically saying, "Oh, well, no, AI is

1192
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,597
actually going to kill us all." And, you
know, I know this because I'm an expert.

1193
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,197
It was like the same sort of thing.
And I kind of felt like that was also the

1194
01:06:07,280 --> 01:06:10,397
the sort of language of the end of the
film is like, "No, no, it's normal for

1195
01:06:10,480 --> 01:06:13,917
people who who build incredible
things to like actually regret their

1196
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:18,637
innovation." And it just felt like way
too buttoned up for a film that has a

1197
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:22,717
lot more complexity and that if they had
just ended it at hour two, it would have

1198
01:06:22,800 --> 01:06:25,517
been a masterpiece. >> Yeah.
It felt like it wanted to conform

1199
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:27,517
with President Morales like very badly.

1200
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,157
Yeah. >> Um, yeah, exactly.
Um, and so anyway, so

1201
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,717
that's my like like long extended
argument for why Leo Strauss was

1202
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:37,597
actually the hero of the movie. U
was correct. Uh, Oppenheimer could not be

1203
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:40,877
trusted. Oppenheimer needed to be
rejected in the project. Also, Lewis

1204
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,997
Strauss is shown in the movie as being
very jealous of of Einstein, but if you

1205
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:47,597
squint, you could say he also had
Einstein's number. He knew Einstein was

1206
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,837
not to be trusted. Um, uh, which
was 100% true. But then yeah, Catherine to

1207
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,517
your point like it like if you again I
guess exactly right what you just said

1208
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:59,197
the comparison to AI like if you read
the history of of those people at that

1209
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,757
time specifically people like
Oppenheimer you realize yeah the people

1210
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,597
who invent the technology have no
special moral claim uh they have no

1211
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,077
special predictive power for the
consequence of the technology and they

1212
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,597
have no no basis for a superior
moral claim on the implications of the

1213
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,477
technology. Um and and I will say this,
the movie, you know, the movie being

1214
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,677
made by geniuses, like there was a scene
in the movie that actually did kind of

1215
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,797
hit that uh which was which was which
was based on a real life thing that

1216
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,077
happened which was Oenheimer after the
war, visited Harry Truman at the in the

1217
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:27,837
White House. Um and basically and and
this is sort of in in the histories in

1218
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:30,717
the real world histories. Oppenheimer
basically went to Truman and bas

1219
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:34,317
essentially basically confessed enormous
guilt uh for having built the atomic

1220
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,237
bomb and for for having you know for the
US having dropped it on on Japan and and

1221
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:41,917
actually in real life Truman is I forget
the exact quote but it's in the Truman

1222
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,597
biographies uh you know Truman basically
said uh it basically uh you know

1223
01:07:45,680 --> 01:07:48,637
basically like got him out of his office
as fast as possible and told his chief

1224
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,837
of staff like I think I think the exact
line was never let that weepy son of a

1225
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,757
bitching here again. Um, and then I
think the line of the movie is based on

1226
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,037
something Truman apparently actually
said which was, you know, Robert, you

1227
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:01,677
didn't make the decision to drop the bomb.
It's not on you. I made the

1228
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:05,677
decision. Right. Which, right,
which which is like which is like an

1229
01:08:05,760 --> 01:08:09,997
incredibly powerful thing which
is the dulyeleed commander-in-chief of the

1230
01:08:10,080 --> 01:08:14,077
country made that decision as he should
have that the the the scientist does not

1231
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,277
have the moral authority to decide how
the technology is used. It it's it's the

1232
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:20,077
it's our, you know, in our system
of of government that the the

1233
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,477
commander-in-chief has that authority,
you know, and our elected

1234
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,637
representatives. Um, and so I like
to the movie's enormous credit, it did

1235
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,437
include that. It did show that. Um, and

1236
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:34,077
again, like in my fantasy cut of the
movie, that's the end of the movie. Um,

1237
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:38,557
so they kind of nodded that, but like
like I said, they then then they let

1238
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,797
then then they let him off
the hook um uh at the end.

1239
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,277
>> Shall we close with uh with Fight Club?

1240
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,037
>> Fight Club. Well, we could spend
an entire we could spend hours on just

1241
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:49,357
Fight Club and we probably should
at some point. I I will just say about

1242
01:08:49,440 --> 01:08:52,717
Fight Club. Bike Club's an amazing I
it's like I think it's I I think it's

1243
01:08:52,800 --> 01:08:55,997
it's 100% true art with capital A.
I think it's amazing. I think it's you

1244
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:59,277
know definitely going to stand the test
of time, you know, already is. Um and

1245
01:08:59,360 --> 01:09:01,597
it's one of those movies and it's
it's one of those movies that has that

1246
01:09:01,680 --> 01:09:05,037
characteristic we talked about last time
where like if you watched it the week it

1247
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:08,557
came out versus a year later versus 5
years later versus 10 years later versus

1248
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,637
20 years versus 30 years later. Like
it it has new meanings uh as as as our

1249
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,157
society evolves and and it's got and you
can kind of you can kind at any kind of

1250
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:17,517
point in time you can kind of use it as

1251
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:21,437
a prism on our society. Um it's it's

1252
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:25,357
it's amazing in retrospect. I guess
my my sort of so social political kind of

1253
01:09:25,440 --> 01:09:29,437
kind of analysis of it would be like it
was clearly intended as a leftwing movie

1254
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,717
um at the time because it was sort
of it was sort of um and you know and the

1255
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,837
novel that you know this the famous
novel that it's based on you know and it

1256
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,517
was sort of this you know almost like
what was it remember the original like

1257
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:42,717
there's the sort of leftwing anti-
capitalism of that era like leftwing

1258
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:46,557
anarchism um you know a little bit like
that you know the '90s version of like

1259
01:09:46,640 --> 01:09:49,597
Luigi leftism or something where it's
like you know capitalism is this you

1260
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,917
know basically this horrible right-wing
machine that's like crushing everybody's

1261
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,477
spirits Um and of course
in the movie Andart in

1262
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:58,077
place you know sort of an office drone
who just like absticates his life. Um

1263
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:01,277
and you know has no future in my case
himself and you know ends up doing all

1264
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,677
all the things that that you know kind
of play out in the movie which you know

1265
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,717
and then by the way the movie culminates
in basically the the the destruction of

1266
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,877
capitalism. Um you know basically what
is it he they they he takes down the

1267
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:13,277
buildings containing I think it's like
all the what is it all the bank records

1268
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,717
or credit card records uh to kind of you
know wipe this lake clean and start

1269
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,797
start the economy and society over again.
Um, [clears throat] so at the

1270
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:23,357
time it's just like, wow, that's like
a really leftwing message. And of course

1271
01:10:23,440 --> 01:10:25,677
it's, you know, it's like it's,
you know, David Fincher and it's Edn Brad

1272
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,037
Pitt. It's like one of the best most
entertaining, you know, most captivating

1273
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:31,517
movies ever made. It's it's phenomenal,
but like it's fundamentally a leftwing

1274
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,077
movie. You watch it today and you're
just like, "Wow, it's like ultra

1275
01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:36,317
rightwing." Like it's like ultra ultra

1276
01:10:36,400 --> 01:10:41,357
ultra rightwing cuz it's a to start with
it's a white guy, right? Um, right. And

1277
01:10:41,440 --> 01:10:44,157
so like it's literally you view it today
and you're like wow it's you know it's

1278
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:47,437
it's you know the stereotype would be
it's a right you know it's a it's a it's

1279
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:52,157
a white you know it's a privileged white
male incel uh you know basically right u

1280
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,477
you know with like every advantage
in the world who suddenly you know

1281
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:58,317
nevertheless has built up this
persecution complex right and you just

1282
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,437
lines you're just like wow that's like
an ultra right-wing movie and then by

1283
01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,877
the way the the sort of argument
the movie makes about like capitalism is

1284
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:08,397
like the great you know atomization
of society and like nobody has any type

1285
01:11:08,480 --> 01:11:11,597
anything and people are just like
interchangeable cogs in the great you

1286
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,437
know kind of you know in the great kind
of machine of modernity um you know they

1287
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,837
kind of put on this assembly line
through complete meaningless until they

1288
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:20,797
die and like all concept of like
family and community is like completely

1289
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,837
ruptured and like capitalism is like
you know basically the machine that does

1290
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:27,757
that you know neoliberal capitalism
is the machine that does that like sitting

1291
01:11:27,840 --> 01:11:32,557
here today that's a rightman critique
um and so and so I I I probably shouldn't

1292
01:11:32,640 --> 01:11:35,037
name names but I did talk to somebody
who was involved in the making of the

1293
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:39,277
movie I don't want to it was a I don't
want to I don't want to represent his

1294
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:42,157
his views but I specifically by name,
but I talked to somebody who made the

1295
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,477
movie and I laid up my theory that it
was a leftwing movie at the time and now

1296
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:48,077
it's a right movie. And this this person
basically said, "Oh, no." He's like,

1297
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:50,877
"It's very clear in the movie that
at the end, you know, that he greatly

1298
01:11:50,960 --> 01:11:53,357
regrets what he's doing." Like,
you know, he he like has, you know, he's

1299
01:11:53,440 --> 01:11:57,117
filled with regret. Like, it's a very,
you know, kind of sad tragic ending. Um,

1300
01:11:57,200 --> 01:12:00,157
and and I was like, "Oh, well then
if you just like used AI to just go in

1301
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:03,837
there and tweak the final scene of of
the Ed Norton character standing, you

1302
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,557
know, watching the buildings come down
and if you just tweak the final scene to

1303
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:09,677
where he would have like a sly little
smile on his face, like all of a sudden

1304
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,797
like the entire movie becomes like this,
you know, basically ultra rightwing from

1305
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,717
start to finish." Um, and anyway, I I'll
pause there. I just I just got to say

1306
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,517
whichever way you interpret it, like I
think that movie definitely is capital

1307
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:22,557
AR. I think it's amazing. I think it'll
I think people will be watching it and

1308
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,717
discussing it, you know,
100 years from now.

1309
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:28,557
>> Yeah. to to bring it back
to the original thesis of this podcast,

1310
01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,837
monitoring the situation that's going
on in the internet. Um, what went viral

1311
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:36,797
this week related to Fight Club was the
PSAs that Brad Pitt and Edward Norton

1312
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:40,317
put out before the movie came out in
theaters. And if you have, I won't, this

1313
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:44,317
is one thing I won't spoil, but it was
going viral like why don't we make PSAs

1314
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:46,237
about like staying silent in the theater

1315
01:12:46,320 --> 01:12:48,797
like this uh anymore. You have to watch

1316
01:12:48,880 --> 01:12:53,357
it. It's like 90 seconds. Um,
and it just confirms that Brad Pitt is the

1317
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:57,677
goat. he is hilarious. Um, and that he
puts serious thought into everything he

1318
01:12:57,760 --> 01:13:02,157
does, including the please stay quiet in
the theater uh PSAs that went out before

1319
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:06,717
the movie came out in theaters 25 years
ago. So, watch it. Uh, I'm glad it's

1320
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:09,837
going viral again. And we should
definitely make actors do those PSAs for

1321
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:13,597
theaters. >> So, Katherine,
that movie came out in what year?

1322
01:13:13,680 --> 01:13:17,357
>> 1999. >> 99. Yeah. 1999,
>> which is kind of universally I remember

1323
01:13:17,440 --> 01:13:19,517
just like a year of like
absolutely amazing movies.

1324
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:23,037
>> Yes. Maybe that maybe the best single
year for movies in the last like 40

1325
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:27,277
years or >> or longer.
So um question um could that

1326
01:13:27,360 --> 01:13:30,077
movie So number one is that movie was
at least according to the accounts that

1327
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,357
I've read that movie was very difficult
to make. Um and then once they had in

1328
01:13:33,440 --> 01:13:36,077
the can like people the original people
who saw it like were you know it was

1329
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:38,877
just like a lot of people just like
didn't know what to make of it you know

1330
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:42,077
cuz there's a very simplistic reading
of it right which is just like total

1331
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:45,837
nihilism and like just destruction
and you know sex violence you know to no

1332
01:13:45,920 --> 01:13:49,517
purpose. It's one of those movies where
like you you have to have a lens on the

1333
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,077
movie. You have to have an idea of the
movie or the movie has to get its idea

1334
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:54,717
across to you and you have to you
have to catch the idea before you can

1335
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:57,357
actually watch it properly because
if you just watch it otherwise it just

1336
01:13:57,440 --> 01:14:00,797
seems like it's just like tremendously
nihilistic which I you know very much I

1337
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,357
very much don't believe that it is.
But uh you know I think it was very

1338
01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:07,997
controversial at the time u it was very
hard to get made. You know it's it was

1339
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:11,517
misinterpreted by many people over the
years and by the way the people who made

1340
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:15,837
it me is misinterpreting it. Um, and so
that that movie could get made during

1341
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:17,197
that era. Could that movie have gotten

1342
01:14:17,280 --> 01:14:21,357
made uh after the '90s?

1343
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:25,277
>> I I feel like it's the like
the consumate '90s film, [clears throat]

1344
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,117
>> right? Like like just the the as you

1345
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,277
said, like the critique on consumerism,

1346
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:33,917
like the uh sort of early critique on um

1347
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:38,477
you know, kind of the consumerism
affecting masculine like traits, right?

1348
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:41,437
like like the whole the whole reaction
of you know we're going to have a fight

1349
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:45,277
club to kind of reclaim our our
masculinity and sort of our life and our

1350
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:48,157
you know that that felt like
was actually I mean it's it's interesting

1351
01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,717
because it's the same critique it's the
same conversation that's happening right

1352
01:14:50,800 --> 01:14:55,997
now but it really was also a '9s
conversation um just sort of you know

1353
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:59,757
and that's the same thing as um I
believe 1999 was also American Beauty

1354
01:14:59,840 --> 01:15:03,357
and that's a similar sort of like all
of these movies had the same sort of to

1355
01:15:03,440 --> 01:15:07,677
your point nihilism but sort
of this David Foster Wallaceesque sort of

1356
01:15:07,760 --> 01:15:10,877
consumerism M is destroying us.
We're moving to the suburbs and we have to

1357
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:13,117
reclaim in some way. And like the sort

1358
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:16,797
of I I I don't like the portrayal of any

1359
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:20,797
man feeling like constrained in their,
you know, it was it was always sort of

1360
01:15:20,880 --> 01:15:24,637
like the consumerism and the
suburbanization of America is destroying

1361
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:26,717
sort of like masculine freedom, right?

1362
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,837
So there were like
that was like a very '9s

1363
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,517
>> coded end of the '9s film era. like I

1364
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,117
don't so part of me is like I don't I
it could probably be made but it would

1365
01:15:37,200 --> 01:15:40,077
probably be made with totally different
ethos and maybe a totally different take

1366
01:15:40,160 --> 01:15:45,357
on that um thesis now like the thesis
is slightly different than what it was in

1367
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:49,517
the '9s which is that like you know
like Walmart is destroying you right like

1368
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,717
it's a very different now it's like tech
is destroying you but at the time it was

1369
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:55,917
Walmart and capitalism are destroying you
>> Mark Katherine thanks so much for for

1370
01:15:56,000 --> 01:16:01,530
coming on and talking about movies
again thank you so much Perfect. [music]

1371
01:16:06,710 --> 01:16:12,280
[music] Hey,