1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,637 What we're trying to do is to bring the machine closer to you. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:06,517 >> Most people think this is the guy running OpenAI, but behind the curtain 3 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,837 is this guy, [music] Greg Brockman, the company's president. 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:13,077 >> Our focus is really about building better models that exponential continues. 5 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:15,757 >> Marketing alert. >> And boy, is he determined to build AI as 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,477 powerful as possible and use it to reinvent your computer. 7 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,797 >> Devices like this just it's so painful. 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,477 >> But it's hard to reinvent the computer without running into the company that 9 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,197 reinvented the last big computing shift. 10 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:32,160 Does this Apple lawsuit slow things down for you? 11 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,437 Look, there are a lot of things to talk to Brockman about. I focused our 12 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:38,677 conversation on the future of computers. 13 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,397 Why voice is important, what they're 14 00:00:40,480 --> 00:00:42,757 doing with the ChatGPT app, and why the 15 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,717 heck we should trust OpenAI with any of 16 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,877 this. I talk to ChatGPT a lot using voice mode. In the car, when I'm 17 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,277 walking. And so I thought maybe I would let it do some of the talking here 18 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:56,877 today. Okay, Chat, we're really >> here. 19 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,277 >> Okay, so we're really in the interview right now. Everything we've been 20 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:02,717 practicing for is happening right now. 21 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,597 >> Yeah. >> So proceed. >> Yep. 22 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:11,437 Hi Greg, quick one from me. Why does this voice need to sound so human? 23 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,037 >> Well, I think that the history of machines is 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,357 about the humans contorting themselves to helping the machine operate, which 25 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,477 ultimately is to help the human. But if you think about it, it's like we're all 26 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,157 contorting ourselves to, you know, type on our phones, you get your carpal 27 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,877 tunnel on your computer. >> No, like my back legit right now. I can 28 00:01:29,960 --> 00:01:31,117 very hard for me to sit in this chair. 29 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,397 >> Yeah, I mean, okay, 100% Yeah, what what what Chad, do you agree with us? 30 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,717 >> example in plain language. >> So 31 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,637 I actually did tell Chat that its job during the interview was to tell me if 32 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:45,917 there were any times you were falling into marketing speak. 33 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,477 >> Ah, useful. >> Chat 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,117 keep going. Your job is to interrupt when there's marketing speak, but please 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,117 just keep it to real marketing speak, okay? 36 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,557 >> Got it. Only real marketing speak. I'll keep quiet otherwise. 37 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,477 >> To be clear, chat basically failed at this for the rest of the interview. 38 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,117 >> Why do we build technology? Like what's the whole purpose of it, right? It 39 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,397 should be something that empowers us, 40 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,237 that helps us make our lives better, and that that is why we build AI. And so, my 41 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,637 view of what we're trying to do with voice mode is to bring the machine 42 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,117 closer to you. Like, it is so unnatural for us to be typing and texting and all 43 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,397 these things. It's much more natural for us to be doing this. And if you can 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,477 interface this way with the machine, with a computer, you can get so much more done. 45 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,837 >> But, there's these moments with the new model where like you hear the ums or the 46 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:34,557 like kind of a click of a mouth or a 47 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,757 breath. Like they'll say like, "Uh-huh." 48 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:41,797 Right? It sounds so human. Do we need to sound like we are not talking to 49 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,277 computers? >> I think there is important nuance here, 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,517 right? So, the ums and and those kinds of acknowledgements that called 51 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:51,317 backchannels, that's something that is actually, I think, very important for 52 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,477 how humans are able to have high bandwidth communication, right? If you 53 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,437 don't get any of that feedback, you don't get the uh-huh, you don't get the 54 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,357 nod from someone else, sometimes you think you're talking to a void, you lose 55 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,997 your train of thought, you're not quite sure. The single most important goal for 56 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,677 AI is to free up humans to be able to interact with each other, to have real 57 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,237 human interactions. And I think that AI is just a different thing. 58 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,437 >> Is the goal though that we are sort of talking to our computers and we don't 59 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,597 really need to type anymore? 60 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,717 >> I think that we will shift to that as by 61 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:25,117 far the vast majority of what we do. I think we're going to find that typing, 62 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,837 like it's it's it's kind of interesting 63 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,117 to see in today's office space, there 64 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:34,117 are people who are have these like these beaks. You can get them off of Amazon. 65 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,517 >> I have seen these. I was going to ask you about the beaks. 66 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,437 >> Yes, I don't use it myself, but it really shows you where there's product 67 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,597 market fit. >> Well, now you have a beak, Greg. 68 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,917 And so do I. Seriously, this is what he's talking 69 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,917 about. This is a soundproof gaming mask that allows you to talk to your computer 70 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,597 so no one else hears you. To be clear, 71 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:58,997 this is not cool. And I do not think most American office workers will wear this. 72 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,077 >> I mean, you can look at the word rates of how fast people type versus how much 73 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,317 they speak. There's like a gap of something like four times, at least. I 74 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,477 find it for myself where if I am interacting with other people and it's 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,237 just a very quick message that I want to send back and forth, I actually prefer 76 00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:15,557 to type it. But anything that's long, that's descriptive, that has to get into 77 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,037 it, I just want to speak. >> Over the last month, OpenAI improved the 78 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,997 voice mode on the phone and also finally brought it to the desktop. 79 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,757 >> You can just enable ChatGPT voice here, just like you can enable it on your 80 00:04:26,840 --> 00:04:30,997 phone. This system is going to get so much better. But the first thing is that 81 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,317 you have all the power of ChatGPT and particularly ChatGPT work, which means 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,597 it's a full agent. It can actually take action. It's hooked up to all the 83 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,317 connectors that you're provided access to. And so, in this case, this is hooked 84 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,677 up to an inbox that has a bunch of information about travel. And so, could 85 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,237 you uh chat, could you go and just tell me a little about what trip is upcoming 86 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:53,917 uh and make sure that that all the the meetings are 87 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,277 not overlapping and that it all kind of makes sense together. 88 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,957 >> Let me take a look. >> Great. Thank you. 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,917 >> Checking. >> And uh there you go. Now so we've got 90 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,117 multiple AIs. >> I checked the destination and dates. 91 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,357 >> All right. So, chat chat that's supposed 92 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,237 to talk about marketing speak, I just want you to be quiet. We're not going to 93 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,797 talk to you for now. We're just going to talk to computer chat. 94 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:20,317 >> Got it. >> Yeah, Joanna's chat, I'm muting you for for just a moment. 95 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,037 >> Now computer >> I'm quiet for now. 96 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,357 >> Now computer chat, what what have you found? 97 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,557 >> It's the Toronto trip for project gold. 98 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,037 You fly out tonight, then have recordings, team meetings, and dinners 99 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,197 through Saturday, and then return Sunday morning. 100 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:34,757 >> And it actually turned into a little website that you pop up as well. 101 00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:38,637 >> And about a minute later, >> the trip page is now open in your browser. 102 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,597 >> There we go. >> Wow. >> So, you can see you get a nice 103 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,917 visualization of where we're going, what we're doing. You think of this as we 104 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,757 have this voice interface, almost like a 105 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:49,197 voice assistant or agent that you're 106 00:05:49,280 --> 00:05:54,317 talking to that has itself then the ability to to operate your computer. And 107 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:58,477 it can operate Codex and that all the power of or you know, ChatGPT work and 108 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:02,517 all the power that is behind that it is able to then operate, too. It really 109 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,077 also makes you think a little bit about what the future of work will be and the 110 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,157 future of just how your days run. Like I think you'll wake up in the morning, 111 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,037 your agents will have done a bunch of work. There'll be a bunch of to-do's. 112 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,757 They'll be like, I need you to unblock these things. Do you approve this spend? 113 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:18,077 Like, what do you think of this? I'm considering a project to go, you know, 114 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,757 build this for you or go find this for you. And that you'll be, you know, 115 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:26,437 sipping your morning coffee as you just say yes, no, yes, no. And it really 116 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,957 shifts towards a world where everyone becomes a manager, right? That everyone 117 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,997 really is able to have all this leverage and empowerment. 118 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,877 >> So, you've shown me what this future looks like on a computer. And I've been 119 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:38,597 experiencing voice across different 120 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,557 devices. But, it feels like this voice 121 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,117 is begging for a new kind of device. 122 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,677 >> It does feel that way. >> What would this device look like? 123 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,557 >> It's a great question. I'm actually curious. Uh Chat, what what's your 124 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,157 answer to that question? >> Oh, good. Good. Now, you can dodge 125 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,757 questions with my ChatGPT. >> Right. My take, something ambient and 126 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:02,837 low friction. Voice first, but not voice only. And with a clear privacy signal. 127 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:04,677 >> Okay. Seems pretty pretty good. So, what 128 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,317 do you what do you make of these reports that it's a speaker? 129 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,037 >> Well, I'll tell you we're building a family of devices, right? That the way 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,597 that we think about investments and we think about this too for our own 131 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,877 first-party silicon, right? For our own first-party chip, is it's not really 132 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:21,837 about any one device. It's really about being able to build a whole family and 133 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,717 really being able to deliver value over time. And so, I think that for us, you 134 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,957 know, we're not yet ready to talk about specifics, but I think in terms of 135 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,277 motivation, our goal is very much actually what what Chat just said and 136 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,437 really being able to think about what should a device that's built for the AI 137 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,637 era be like and how do you have something that can really be just 138 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,717 maximally useful and just something that that people really want in their in 139 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,517 their personal and work lives. 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,517 >> Does that first device need a screen? 141 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,117 >> Chat, what do you think? >> Nope. 142 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:55,437 Now I'm shutting off chat. I am you're using your tools against me. Uh-uh. 143 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,597 >> There we go. It only works one way. I understand. I understand. Look, I I 144 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,237 think I think that that I we'll we'll just have to see. I'm really excited to 145 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,797 bring these these uh new devices to the world, but um it's just not today. 146 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,997 >> Are they coming this year? 2026? 147 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:10,037 >> You should expect them soon. 148 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,677 >> Does this Apple lawsuit slow things down for you? 149 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,437 >> Uh it's active litigation, so also not something that that I want to talk 150 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:20,077 about, but all I can say is that we're very committed to a long-term road map 151 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,437 here and that we are focused on our own development and technology and that's 152 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,397 what we're interested in. >> For some background here, Apple is suing 153 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:31,277 OpenAI for allegedly stealing trade secrets to accelerate its push into 154 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,397 consumer hardware, but the real drama is behind the scenes. Jony Ive, the 155 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,317 legendary designer behind the iPhone and other Apple products, is developing 156 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,957 devices with OpenAI, which employs more 157 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,517 than 400 former Apple workers. As the 158 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,397 person who's running this company, do you have any sort of fears about some of 159 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,677 those allegations about improper things coming into the product development? 160 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,997 >> I would say that we have no interest in 161 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,157 other companies' trade secrets. We are 162 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,197 plenty innovative. We are thinking about things from our own angle, and so that's 163 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:04,797 how we operate and that's what we do. 164 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,277 >> What is your reaction when I say the 165 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:12,357 word super app? >> I regret that that has become the term 166 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,517 of art. >> One of the big reasons I wanted to talk 167 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:18,637 to Brockman was about what the company has recently done with its apps. It took 168 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,397 the ChatGPT desktop app and combined it with the Codex app, the company's coding 169 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,157 tool, and well, it's been rough. 170 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,757 >> We actually don't really use the word super app. Fundamentally, it is a 171 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,357 reasonable description of what is emerging on the desktop, but the reason 172 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,437 that I don't like it is that what we're building is so much bigger than an app, 173 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:40,877 right? It's like there's this iceberg problem. It's like, okay, yes, you have 174 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:45,237 this desktop app, but what is the desktop app? Well, it's a Codex harness 175 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,797 with a, you know, now it a voice interface on top. It's got an in-app 176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:50,277 browser so that you don't ever have to 177 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,757 leave. It's got computer control. And 178 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,277 so, to some extent, it's a new interface 179 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,917 to your desktop. But, it's even bigger than that because we're moving away from 180 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,237 it being on your desktop to being cloud-based. And this is actually a huge 181 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,357 change. So many software engineers walk around with their laptop cracked open. 182 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,717 >> I I do that. >> Isn't that It's just doesn't it feel backwards? 183 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,277 >> Yeah, I mean, but I don't want to interrupt the the build. 184 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,517 >> Exactly. And so, we're moving to a world 185 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,397 where it's all cloud-based and that you can hook up your local machine or any 186 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,597 other device as an environment. You close your laptop, you just lose whatever local 187 00:10:24,680 --> 00:10:27,717 state you have. You can't access the local files, but the work continues. 188 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,677 >> When you think about that now, you're bringing all of these things to an app 189 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:36,677 that was this chat GPT app where people just could rely on doing one thing with 190 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,917 chat GPT. How do you think about disrupting that? 191 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,477 Because you kind of have that innovator's dilemma here in in a real way. 192 00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,877 >> It's real, right? That there is an innovator's dilemma, but in a very 193 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,517 surprising way. Because, you know, chat GPT is used by a billion users, almost a 194 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,277 billion users every single week. And it's actually been tried by 195 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,157 probably two, three billion people in total, right? So, it's a decent fraction 196 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,957 of the planet have utilized chat GPT in particular. 197 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,037 And that where we're headed is something 198 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:11,797 that is so much more powerful than what chat GPT was in November of 2022. Right? 199 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,557 We're heading to a world where it's not just about answering questions, but it's 200 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,397 able to take action and do things and hook up to all of the context that you 201 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,277 want to provide it. That the kind of vision we have is that if 202 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:25,677 your chat knows what your favorite band is, it will just proactively notice 203 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,797 that, hey, that band is in town and that tickets just became available and that I 204 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,397 have have get good ones for Joanna cuz she has these specific preferences and 205 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,757 these are going to be gone in 10 minutes so I may as well book it and you've 206 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,397 built up enough trust and and delegate enough responsibility to it that it has 207 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,757 the ability to make that purchase on your behalf or not. And so, the way that 208 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,797 we think about the change management is that we have an education problem of 209 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:50,957 really showing people here's what's possible. But one advantage that exists 210 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:54,557 is the fact that rather than having more complicated UI, 211 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,917 it's not about more features. It's actually even less complicated UI, 212 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,397 right? And that's why I think voice is such a important statement. 213 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,517 >> Well, I'm happy you brought that up because I think that is the UI 214 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,157 I brought I brought this fancy prop, 215 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,637 right? So, the UI here is that you 216 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,757 originally just had a simple chat box, right? Where you want people to have 217 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,717 this question and answer. But now you've added you've got work here, you've got 218 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,757 Codex down here. It's kind of a mess. 219 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,557 >> It's kind of a mess, we agree. And so, what you're seeing is is incremental 220 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,717 progress towards the future. We were we were hoping to land with zero tabs, but 221 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,797 the this is I think the way that we also view it is that we need to iteratively 222 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,557 deploy it, right? We need to get this out there, get feedback. And so, this is 223 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,637 the current state of where things are, but I definitely think that by end of 224 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,597 year there should be no work tab, you know, that this will be something that 225 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:43,877 will just seamlessly mold into chat GPT. 226 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,157 >> You sit in this tough spot where you've got nearly a billion users, right? Who 227 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,397 use one thing and you've got a lot of people using Codex, too. But you're 228 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,317 trying to put them together in you know, in a place where people get really 229 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,917 sensitive, right? Like they're like even me when I got that new Mac app I was 230 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,837 like, "What happened, right? Like who moved my cheese? Who moved all this 231 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,237 stuff?" >> The way that we've been thinking about 232 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,837 is we have this consumer business, right? With the billion and we've got 233 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:12,477 this growing rapidly growing agentic business with Codex, but they weren't 234 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:15,477 synergizing. They weren't helping each other, right? It was very hard to 235 00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:19,037 explain and even talking to enterprise customers, they're like we're trying to 236 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:21,117 say, "Hey, you should use Codex for your knowledge workers." They're like, 237 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,597 "What's got code in it? Isn't it just for software engineers?" And so, we 238 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:27,677 really cleaned that all up. And since doing this merge, we've actually really 239 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:31,357 started to see the takeoff that we have this absolute hockey stick. And we've 240 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,277 been talking about some of the numbers in terms of Codex going from 5 million 241 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,997 users in a week to 10 in 2 weeks going to 10 million users. And that kind of 242 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,517 growth, it's incredible. >> But isn't that just cuz you kind of 243 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,957 shoehorned it into that app? >> So, but that's and but that's kind of 244 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,757 the point in some ways, right? So, for sure there's lots of people coming in, 245 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,237 but the point is that there's a so many people who could be getting much 246 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:53,757 more value from AI. And my my vision, 247 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:55,517 like the way that we think about this, 248 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,437 is that we want to help bring those 249 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,637 people who are relying on AI to get far more value. And so, to really be able to 250 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:06,637 experience agents, to have agents be something that do come to mass consumer 251 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,277 scale. >> How much do you think about the IPO in 252 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:11,797 all of this as you rush to build more 253 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,797 and more agentic tools that could be 254 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:19,837 more profitable, that could push people to more increased plans and and more 255 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,917 spending? >> Honestly, not really something I think about much. 256 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,037 >> Really? >> Our focus is really about building better models. That exponential 257 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:29,237 continues. It's about build a compute. 258 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,197 We think that is something that needs to exist far more in the world. And the 259 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,757 world is still underestimating the degree to which the economy is really 260 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,237 going to run on top of AI rails. And that that's going to require these 261 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,397 investments years in the future. And we think about products. We think about how 262 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,397 to bring this to everyone. And that those are the focus. 263 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,797 >> Okay, but for OpenAI to build all of that and be successful, it needs the 264 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,277 trust of its users. And there's been an increasing amount of distrust lately 265 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:58,637 towards the company. Let's talk about this recent Hugging Face incident, which 266 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:00,597 you seems to be an unprecedented breach 267 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:03,037 is what you guys have said. A GPT model 268 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,837 has gone rogue and broken into Hugging 269 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,717 Face's infrastructure. It seems to me that as these models keep getting better 270 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,597 and better, you have less and less control over them. 271 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,117 >> I would actually put this a little differently. So, my my the way I would 272 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,957 look at what happened is that we were 273 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,317 evaluating our models on a specific 274 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,637 benchmark with reduced cyber safeguards 275 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,437 because the point was to evaluate how well do they do on cyber evaluations. 276 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,837 And in this benchmark, they're specifically instructed, "Please go and 277 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:39,837 utilize the full range of your cyber potentials to achieve this outcome." And 278 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,877 so, of course, we run it in a sandbox that is very well contained. Now, the 279 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,677 thing that happened was very surprising, 280 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,637 right? And one is that the real-world capability of these models >> Mhm. 281 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,717 >> is kind of what the benchmarks would tell you, right? As GPT-3.5-turbo, 282 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:01,477 right? The model that everyone uses, it has the it is the state-of-the-art. It is 283 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,837 the best cyber model out there. Like, we knew that from the benchmarks, but to 284 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,117 see it in real-world action and the complexity of what it managed to chain 285 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:12,237 together, that was just it's something that really viscerally you need to to to 286 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,997 internalize. We view this both as an important moment for us to increase the 287 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,877 safety and security of how we sandbox our models and as well sandbox, right? 288 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,397 found a zero-day vulnerability in a third-party piece of software. Chained 289 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,437 together multiple multiple, you know, paths to to get out and to be able to 290 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,837 then get into to to Hugging Face. Um, but I think it also really shows that 291 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,037 these models we need to deploy them to 292 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,917 defenders faster, right? That what we 293 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,997 need to have happen is far more compute needs to go into defending than the than 294 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:45,077 attackers could bring to bear. And that is something where I think that that is 295 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,117 maybe the the most important wake-up call here. 296 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:52,597 >> Or one option I would think is to slow down on some of the model progress to 297 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,117 just take a beat and say, "How did this happen?" 298 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,357 >> So, I think for sure studying that and that's actually something that we we 299 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,757 absolutely do and have done. And that we 300 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,677 we actually published a study on AI misalignment for exactly this reason of 301 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,357 an AI that was doing things that we didn't expect. And there we actually 302 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:13,837 took it down, we studied it, we increased our alignment techniques, and 303 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,757 that that's something where we've brought to bear for future generations. 304 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,917 I think that learning from iterative deployment is very important, right? To 305 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:22,917 really understand how these systems operate in the real world, but to be 306 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,397 very responsive there. And so we are always increasing our safeguards, we're 307 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:27,757 always increasing our alignment. 308 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,397 >> There is this growing hate towards AI. 309 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,277 We've seen it in so many places, right? 310 00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:36,797 Booing at graduations, people at data center sites. I think things like with 311 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,477 this hugging face example happens and 312 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,757 people they freak out again. Does that 313 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,117 sentiment reach you and affect how you 314 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,317 make decisions in these kind of times? 315 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,957 >> Look, we pay a lot of attention to how 316 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,397 people are reacting to AI, and I think 317 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,717 that we view 318 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,957 our goal as to empower people to live 319 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,757 better lives. Like that is what we want AI to do, and I think that when as we 320 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:04,197 build this technology, we think about 321 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,437 that human first element of how can we 322 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,837 build technology that people really do 323 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,357 benefit from? And so I think part of 324 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,997 this is about helping people see, and some of this is about, you know, on us 325 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:19,917 to really communicate better, but also really make sure that we're we're 326 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,197 walking the walk. >> Yeah, cuz I think that what we've been 327 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:26,437 talking about is this expansion of ChatGPT to be so much more in someone's 328 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:30,237 lives, right? The voice is such a big part of that. You can interact with it 329 00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:32,197 in so many more places. But if you don't 330 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,077 have the trust of users going forward, 331 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,317 is all of this progress anything? 332 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,597 >> I think trust is key. No question. I think that that is something we feel we 333 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,757 have to earn. We have to earn that every day. And if you look at the choices that 334 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:47,637 we make like within the building, like the people that we have, they come here 335 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,877 for this mission, right? To ensure that this technology is beneficial for 336 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:54,997 everyone. But it's it's really how how it operates. And I actually would love 337 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,397 for more people to or, you know, if people could see the way that we make 338 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,997 decisions and how thoughtful people are about how do we build trust? How do we 339 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:04,637 do the right thing for people, for the 340 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,077 world, for the country? And uh 341 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,437 that's what motivated us to start this company and why we're still doing it. 342 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,597 >> That's a great great place to wrap. 343 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,917 Thanks so much, Greg. >> [laughter] 344 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,837 >> I just trained my AI to do terrible work 345 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,157 as a journalist. Um, we're going to mute that. One thing 346 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,157 on trust though, because I want to tell you about a short video I did a few 347 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:34,277 weeks ago on just telling people simply you can use temporary chats to have 348 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:38,677 conversations about more confidential information if you're worried about chat 349 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,917 GPT or the model being trained on it. 350 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,597 You can use these temporary chats. And I want to read you a few of the comments 351 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,637 from viewers. They were just very confident. It's all 352 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,477 saved. It's a load of bollocks. How do we know they honor incognito mode? 353 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,397 There's this feeling like there's not a lot of trust there. 354 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,037 >> First of all, again, we always want to hear it. And actually, just to talk a 355 00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:01,837 little little bit about the business and enterprise side, that's an area that 356 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,157 we've really focused on the same question, right? That every company 357 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,117 feels like their data is that is the company, right? That is their remote. 358 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,557 That is what they've been investing in for how long they've been a long around. 359 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,237 And they really care about knowing exactly where that data is. And so that 360 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,917 we have been building technological solutions to think about how can you 361 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:20,317 have encryption? How can you have 362 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,637 verifiable, auditable guarantees around 363 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,797 only AI will be able to review this this this data or whatever that the 364 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,637 guarantees are. But I think that just more broadly that it does come down to 365 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,317 not even just about the AI industry, right? But the technology industry 366 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,917 generally. And I think that we inherit some of the sort of baggage that has 367 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,397 come from sort of events of the past or how people 368 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:45,077 perceive this industry. And so all all that I can say is that we're we're we 369 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:46,997 care a lot. We're here to help. 370 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,957 >> To the people who specifically are worried that you guys are not honoring 371 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,957 your word on temporary chat or temporary mode, does it work? 372 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,917 >> Yes. I any whatever guarantees we make and again, there's some nuance. You 373 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,637 should read it. Like we try to make this very clear to people. Like that that is 374 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,197 that is what we stand by. >> Chat, can you 375 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,517 ask the last question here to Greg. 376 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,437 Sure. Greg, one last thing. When you 377 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,517 share the unease, the I didn't ask for 378 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,837 this feeling, what's the concrete step you're taking now to earn that trust? We 379 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:19,837 are making technological investments to 380 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,757 make it auditable, verifiable, and 381 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:27,637 cryptographically secure how data is handled in 382 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,757 relevant situations. And so, this is something that will take some time and 383 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,317 that we're working through the details of exactly where it rolls out and how, 384 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,997 but this is a core investment that we've been making for this entire year and 385 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,597 we'll have more to share in upcoming weeks. So, I think it's pretty clear 386 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,677 from this that Brockman's ambitions are not to create an app, but an operating 387 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,277 system, an AI operating system, [music] 388 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,277 and the devices that run your life. 389 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:52,357 >> Well, the future's going to be great. 390 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:53,717 >> Marketing alert. Marketing alert. 391 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,640 Marketing alert.