# BREAKING: Elon Musk's First Interview Since Jury Rejected Claim Against Altman's OpenAI

*Forbes* · https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adgbH9FixW0

## Summary

At a Forbes innovators dinner, Elon Musk gives his first interview after a jury rejected his legal claim concerning OpenAI's for-profit conversion. He argues the case sets a dangerous precedent allowing charities to be converted into for-profits and says he will appeal. The conversation then covers his companies, AI timelines, space-based compute, and future opportunities like tunnels, synthetic medicine, and electric aircraft.

## Key points

- Musk says the jury verdict means the case was decided on narrow grounds, and he believes OpenAI was 'stolen one piece at a time' from a non-profit.
- He warns that converting a non-profit into an $800 billion for-profit company undermines all charitable giving in America, so he will appeal.
- He predicts AI smarter than humans in every way, including innovation, is probably a year or two away.
- He forecasts that in about five years digital intelligence will exceed the sum of all human intelligence, with 100 million to a billion humanoid robots.
- He expects the economy to roughly double in five to seven years due to accelerating AI-driven output.
- He outlines a vision of solar-powered AI satellites in space, potentially a terawatt per year launched from Earth and a petawatt per year using a lunar base and mass driver.
- He highlights untapped opportunities in tunneling (the Boring Company), synthetic RNA 'digital medicine', and electric aircraft.
- Asked about his legacy, he says he wants people to say he 'played a useful role in the advancement of civilization.'
- He declines to comment on a possible SpaceX S-1, citing a quiet period.
- He names Nikola Tesla, Edison, Ben Franklin, Newton, Einstein, and Henry Ford as innovators he admires, and Jensen Huang among living contemporaries.

## Notes

### OpenAI Verdict and Appeal
- Musk addresses the Oakland jury verdict, saying the jury decided on narrow grounds rather than whether unjust enrichment occurred or the charity could be dissolved.
- He argues OpenAI was "stolen one piece at a time," beginning with a small capped for-profit whose stock would revert to the charity upon achieving AGI — a clause he says was removed just in recent weeks.
- He calls an $800 billion for-profit emerging from a non-profit a dangerous precedent that could undermine all charitable giving in America, and confirms he will appeal.

### His Companies and Priorities
- Musk says running four major companies "more or less just happened"; in college he wanted to change the world, focusing on sustainable energy, brain-machine interfaces, and (later) AI.
- He describes Neuralink work as "Jesus-level": restoring speech, eyesight via direct brain interfaces, and enabling people to walk again.
- SpaceX aims to make life multi-planetary; he hopes for the first fully reusable orbital rocket breakthrough later this year, and estimates roughly a million tons of payload is needed for a self-sustaining Mars civilization.
- He declines to comment on merging companies or a SpaceX S-1, citing a quiet period.

### AI Predictions
- He is "simultaneously" petrified and excited; AI smarter than humans in every way, including innovation, is "probably not more than a year or two away."
- In about five years (by 2031), he predicts digital intelligence will exceed the sum of all human intelligence, 100 million to a billion humanoid robots, and an economy roughly twice its current size in five to seven years.

### Space-Based AI Compute
- SpaceX has 10,000 satellites in orbit; Starship could launch over 10,000 communication satellites per year.
- He frames energy via the sun: all human energy use is less than a trillionth of the sun's output, so climbing the Kardashev scale requires going to space.
- A terawatt per year of solar-powered AI satellites could be launched from Earth (~10 million tons of payload at 100 kW per ton); a lunar base with a mass driver could reach a petawatt per year.

### Future Opportunities and Legacy
- He encourages others to start tunneling companies, sees opportunity in synthetic RNA "digital medicine" that could "cure almost anything," and in electric aircraft.
- On legacy: "You played a useful role in the advancement of civilization."

## Transcript

[00:00] All right, everybody. We have a very special guest. Listen. We love all of you. This is a This is the most amazing room of innovators in America. Uh we love you all. It's a dinner of equals, but there can only be one number one. Uh we do We're Forbes. We do rank things. Uh and the Forbes 250 uh innovators the number one innovator uh and it wasn't that close, to be honest, was Elon Musk. So, uh and we are very honored to have him join us. Elon, are you here? >> Uh yeah. >> Oh, we're glad that you're glad that you're here. Thank you. There he is. >> [applause] >> AND YOU DO LIKE RANKING THINGS. IT'S TRUE. >> HA, we do. We're good at it. Uh and and again, first congratulations. It was not that close. There were a lot of There

[00:53] were a lot of battles in a lot of places, but number one was not in doubt. Uh but anyway, this is a room of your people. Yeah, you Well deserved This is a room of your people. I will say they were asking the first question and we want we want to get really nerdy about innovation. The first question though that everybody was asking is, all right, ask Elon. We had one of the great ca- cases in the world of innovation over the last few weeks. What's Elon's verdict on the verdict today? >> What do you mean on me? >> Uh I that that that um the case in Oakland. >> Yes. Oh, oh, what that verdict? >> [laughter] >> It's like, what are you doing? Um yeah, I guess just Well, they they basically just decided that the uh

[01:48] staff would not pay things for fast. They were not actually whether depending on whether um you you they've been unjustly enriched or the charity could be dissolved, which I think is obviously the case. Um So, um But, I I do think it's somewhat of a dubious situation because um you know, what happened was in by degrees. I mean, it wasn't it wasn't stolen all at once, but stolen one piece at a time. And, um so, we have to say, like, well, was there really even a basis for legal action before um you know, problems to dissolve? And, I don't think there is, actually. Um so, you know, but like, the first step I don't label at this point, but the first step into adding a for-profit thing had a cap for-profit and was at a small scale.

[02:42] Um and also, that uh all stock would revert to the charity upon the eventual of artificial general intelligence. Uh that that clause is now being removed. So, it it will continue to be a for-profit after developing artificial general intelligence. Um that removal was quite recent, just in the last few weeks. Um so, um it is this point is it it is it is a whatever $800 billion for-profit company somehow from a non-profit. And, I I think this is a dangerous precedent to set because if if it means that someone can um start take money as a non-profit, convert that to a for-profit when it's successful, um it undermines all charitable giving in America. >> It certainly would uh you'd see a lot of people starting to start non-profits

[03:36] with a path towards for-profit. Uh you you >> Exactly. What do you got to lose? >> Right, exactly. What um you said on X you're appealing optimistic about the appeal? >> Yeah, I think we we necessarily have to appeal um because uh it this this will this become precedent, you know, which people can actually then essentially loot charities and use this case as a as a basis for doing so. Um which I think would be a lot. >> Let's uh let's talk innovation. Your your title we have up here, I mean, again, you're the CEO of four major companies, even those companies have major companies within those companies. Uh was this was this part of the plan or did it just happen? >> More or less just happened. I mean, it

[04:22] well, let's just say that when I was in college, I wanted to be part of um things that would uh change the world in a significant way. Um I didn't originally think I wanted to be doing things in AI because AI was somewhat of a double-edged sword, but I I I did want to um accelerate the transition to a sustainable energy economy, which is the sort of electric cars, solar, and batteries. Um and uh you know, I think I think some some kind of brain machine interface uh that can give you cybernetic superpowers, I think is probably good. Um it could, you know, help people that have brain or spine injuries, uh you know, restore enable people who never spoken for years to speak again, which is which we've done.

[05:16] Um get people eyesight who have lost uh both eyes or the optic nerve uh or maybe have never even seen at all, blind from birth. Um by direct interface to the uh the um optical sensors in the brain, you you can actually restore eyesight or give people eyesight that they've never had before. And you can enable people to walk again, which I think is profound. I mean, these are kind of Jesus-level things, you know, like uh let's say like when technologies are hitting like Jesus-level miracles, you know, like, "Yeah, that's pretty good." >> How do you How do you um um How do you Again, it's asked a lot, but it's it's fun to ask it to you. How do you prioritize? I mean, cuz you're right, you've got you've got multiple deities

[05:59] here. If it's if these are Jesus level solutions, which one which one do you serve? >> Jesus level, you're like, "Okay, that's pretty good." Um So, um And if And if SpaceX is about um making life multi-planetary expanding consciousness to the stars. Um And hopefully, we will make a fundamental breakthrough later this year, which is having the the the first a fully reusable uh orbital rocket. Um which is necessary in order to do transport enough tonnage uh to the moon or Mars to create a self uh a self-growing city. Um basically, to extend civilization to to to other planets. Um I mean, I I think probably you need to move a rough order of magnitude of about a million tons to the moon or to Mars

[06:59] uh to create enough of an of an industrial base to have have the civilization there be um self-growing, meaning like the acid test being if the resupply ships from Earth stop coming for any reason, um does it does the the civilization on the moon or Mars continue to grow or does it die out? Um and um I think I think that's that's a a fundamental branching point in the future of civilization. Um Are Are we a multi-planet space-faring civilization or are we um stuck on one planet forever? Um and um I do want to emphasize I mean, like, being a multi-planet civilization is doesn't mean like we leave Earth and go somewhere else cuz that would just be a single planet civilization somewhere else. >> Right.

[07:49] On a lesser place, probably. >> Yeah, and a tougher place to to live than than here by far. Um Earth is extremely easy and comfortable compared to the moon, Mars, or pretty much anywhere else. Um but you know, I think I think at some point we want to be a space flying civilization. We want to Um be out there among the stars and we and and and be Yeah. Um >> So, these are again, these are huge, huge things you're dealing with. So, when you try to figure out when you get up every morning, is it just kind of like a buffet or is it Do you have kind of a plan on what you're going to what you're going to focus on? Cuz that's something a lot of innovators here have to deal with on a much smaller scale.

[08:36] >> Well, uh I guess I don't really uh I don't really get up and say, "Hey, what should I innovate today?" you know, type of thing. Um it's it's really just um I've both building the technologies necessary to uh extend life beyond Earth. Um There's you know, there's this there's the Starlink internet which is rebuilding the entire internet in space. Um But better, you know, I guess that's kind of pretty cool. Um There's Yeah, but the Optimus robot that we're developing at Tesla, the self-driving cars, um solar power at scale, you know. >> Big stuff. A lot of Again, they're all pointing a lot of them are pointing to becoming an interplanetary Is there a Is there a time when you could see again putting these companies

[09:31] together and just running one big company? I mean, some of you have a a but do you envision that? Would and would that help you in terms of making these things mesh? >> Um Well, I I think it's difficult for me to to sort of comment on that, you know, because uh you know, there's publicly traded companies and >> Yeah. >> one is publicly traded and one is, you know, about to be. So, uh it would be like difficult to you know. >> No no problem. We'll we'll we'll move on. Although we we did uh the you know, the reports today that that you might follow your SpaceX S-1 this week. Is that that a go? >> I'm not I think I'm not allowed to comment on on these things. >> Seriously? >> That's like a quiet period or something

[10:20] to that effect. >> That That is the beauty That is the beauty of uh going public or being in that quiet period. Um do you have a favorite of all your We know we you love all you love all your your children, all your companies. Is there a favorite? among your companies? >> Well, no. I mean, I'm not really going to say that's like what's your favorite kid type of thing, you know. Um I think you can't really s- say that, you know. Uh >> What um If it's not your favorite company, who's your favorite role model as an innovator historically? >> Well, I guess uh you know, I'm obviously a big fan of Nikola Tesla since uh named the company after him. Um Um but also I I also like uh you know. Um I don't know. Um Edison is great, too.

[11:17] Um Like some people like don't like don't like Edison really cuz he just did some pretty impressive stuff. Um And um Like General Electric is like Edison's company. Um That's I mean I certainly admire the great scientists, engineers, but I I like anyone. I mean, you know, Ben Franklin, uh Shakespeare, Newton, uh Einstein, you know, >> We We did >> suspects. >> We did We surveyed uh historians, and so you were number one on the 250 living list. We did a 250 historical, and the top three were Edison, you said, Franklin, uh and Henry Ford. So, you you've uh you know, you you're We should have had you as a judge. Uh >> Ford was actually more awesome than people realize cuz I mean, he basically invented um

[12:13] mass manufacturing of of complex objects. Like, people didn't really know how to do that uh before uh before Ford. >> Yes. >> Um And like, Ford actually created the automotive industry uh of of Earth, really. Um And uh cuz cuz he he he pretty much started what became General Motors, and then he kind of got I don't know, kicked out of that or something, and then started uh Ford Motor Company. Um Uh And and really developed mass manufacturing of complex objects. Um It's quite quite a tricky thing, and then everyone just pretty much copied him. >> What's uh what's amazing if you look at the historical list, and even the current list, is just how much uh innovation comes out of America, and how much of the things that everyone takes

[13:01] for granted came out of America. Do you have a Do you have a favorite innovator who's living today? Besides, you know, anybody in this room, or anybody uh uh Who are Who are some of your favorite entrepreneurs, innovators you admire who uh who are your contemporaries now? >> Well, uh hmm. I mean, I guess uh I don't I I mean, I don't really think about these things that much, but I

[13:38] Uh well, I mean, I guess uh you know, Jensen Huang at Nvidia is like doing pretty great in terms of uh inventing, you know, the developing AI computers. Um uh And um >> Well, you mostly you mentioned Jensen and uh Listen, you were early uh warning about the dangers of AI, but also you've been uh you know, a somebody who's helping pioneer a lot of great things that come out of AI. Right now, where are you on the scale of how being petrified or excited? >> Well, I think I'm like so simultaneously both, honestly. It's like uh I mean, at this this point, like like like when I go to sleep, there's like some AI breakthrough. When I wake up, there's some AI breakthrough. And by lunchtime, there's another AI

[14:32] breakthrough. >> Yeah. >> So, um it it's like a head spinner at this point. Um it you know, it's it's pretty obvious that we we're going to have AI that is vastly smarter than humans. Um And um And already in some ways it already is. Um I it seems like AI unequivocally smarter than humans in every way, including in innovation, is probably not more than a year or two away, it would seem. Um That's uh >> It's It's heavy to think about. >> I know. Jesus, this is this is kind of worrying. I hope it's nice to us, you know. >> [laughter] >> What um Um right, you know, when you look at me about all the things we've asked him to do what what's something that you have a better position that to see this than

[15:29] anybody pretty much what's going to happen in 5 years that you're seeing that maybe a lot of people aren't seeing that's going to blow people's minds that will be doable in 5 years. >> In 5 years. We'll have probably so 5 years being say 2031 um. I think. Digital intelligence will exceed the sum of all human intelligence. That there will be in 5 years. Probably. There might be a. Let's say at least a hundred million humanoid robots but maybe a billion. Yeah. >> All right the. >> Let me and and and I I I would predict that the economy is probably. Twice its current size. In. Five maybe six years. Seven at five to seven years. Um because you're going to hit a doubling period you know where it's it's

[16:41] where the the economic output is increasing so so fast that you know plus minus a few years you're you'll see giant changes. Um. >> What um what you know a couple follow-up questions on that when do you see the first data center in space again you have a better vision on that than pretty much anybody you know you're again if when we're going to Mars it's you clearly going to be leading the way when when do we get a colony on the moon when do we get a colony on Mars three-pronged question data center in space. Humans on the moon humans on Mars, timeline. >> Yeah, certainly space is much easier than people may think. I mean, SpaceX at this point has 10,000 satellites in orbit right now. Um and um

[17:30] and in the future with Starship we'll be launching over 10,000 um communication satellites per year. Uh each one of which is much more capable than our current satellites. So, you can expect, you know, that probably uh 10 to 100 times more communications capability than than is than currently exists from space. Um But but that that will pale in comparison to the tonnage of uh AI satellites. So, I mean, it's it's always helpful to use the physics tools of thinking in the limit. If say if you think in the limit, what is the most amount of uh AI compute you could possibly bring bring to bear? Um and the the way to access power that's far beyond anything on Earth is in space. Um so, these are so so humbling

[18:21] ways to maybe frame the problem and see how tiny we are. We Here on Earth we are like microbes on a dust mote compared to the sun. Um so, we All of human civilization currently uses less than a trillionth of the energy of the say the power emitted by the sun. Much less than a trillionth. All human energy counted as generously as you could possibly imagine is much less than a trillionth of the sun's energy. Um so, that means if you were to increase civilizational the energy harnessed by a million, you would still be much less than a millionth of the sun's energy harnessed. Um So, an another way to think about it is cuz people sometimes say, "What about this this form of of power generation or that

[19:20] form of power generation?" I'm like, "Everything is irrelevant compared to the sun." Um the sun is 99.8% of mass in the solar system. If If all mass that was not the sun was was burnt uh and you extracted the absolute maximum amount of energy from all mass that is not the sun, the amount of energy produced by the sun would still round out to 100% of energy produced in the solar system. And then if you teleported two more Jupiters from other somehow teleported two more Jupiters into our solar system and burnt them, too, um the sun would still be 100% of power uh rounding up. So, really and everything is just extremely tiny compared to the sun. So, that that whole when you go to space, um if you want if you want to to

[20:06] climb the Kardashev Kardashev scale in any meaningful way whatsoever, you have to go to space. Um and and and uh you know, our rough estimate is that you could probably do a terawatt a year of AI-powered uh you know, solar-powered AI satellites um from from launched from Earth. Um that would require, let's say, something like 10 million tons a year of payload to orbit at 100 kW per ton. And that'd be a terawatt per year. The average power usage in the United States is half a terawatt. So, that would mean you'd be launching twice the um twice the amount of AI power than than the entire electricity can consumption in the United States. per year. But this is this is this is we're we're not breaking any physics here. This is

[20:58] this is all achievable. Um Now, if you want to take that up uh several more orders of magnitude, then the the thing to do is to build a base on the moon. And construct a mass driver. Um and build the uh solar panels and radiators on the moon. Chips you could probably bring from Earth, but build those on the moon, too. Um And uh and and that would let enable you to do about a pedawatt per year into of solar-powered AI. Um and I'm not sure how much AI we need up there, but uh that's a lot. >> That is a lot. >> Yeah. >> What um >> It would be vastly greater than the than the Earth's economy. Um Earth's economy would be yeah, really inconsequential by comparison with that. >> No, that's a that's a vision of

[21:48] abundance, for sure. Uh I know you you've had a quite a busy day and you you always have a busy day, so we don't we want to be mindful of your time. So, I just have two last questions. One, uh there must be I mean, again, you keep on coming up with these big ideas and you keep executing them. What's a What's a big idea in your head that you haven't deployed yet? Uh that you'd like to. >> Well, I you know, I did I did say for the longest time that people ought to build build tunnels, and then everyone thought I was joking. And then I was like, "Fine, well, let's just create a company, the Boring Company, to build tunnels." Um cuz this is an obvious way to um reduce traffic to zero by going 3D with your transport system. Just as we

[22:30] go 3D with the buildings, um it's obviously uh logical to it logical to expect that you you uh won't have traffic if you have buildings that are 3D and and a transport system that is 2D. And everyone tries to go in and out of the 3D building at the same time. Um but if you have a transport network that is three-dimensional with tunnels going all over the place, um then um you can address any arbitrary level of traffic. Um now, I encourage other people to start tunneling companies cuz the the Boring Company is the only one, as far as I can tell that's taking this seriously. >> to be the only boring company, right? So, >> Yeah, honestly, there's like a lot of opportunity, um, you know, in tunnels.

[23:11] Um, and >> [laughter] >> there really is. Um, and it's quite hard work building these things. So, I would I hope that others people do it, too. >> Okay. >> Um, and I guess there's there's probably a lot of opportunity in, um, synthetic medicine. So, um, with like these days, you can basically create uh custom, you know, RNA. Uh, and I think I think like the the sort of we're going from uh from a situation where medicine has been analog, where we kind of like just find drugs kind of by accident most of the time. Um, like finding sticks in the forest that, you know, seem like it this thing this stick seems like a useful club, um, type of thing. It's it's it's quite primitive how we found medication

[23:57] in the past. Um, now, but once you can since since we can now construct synthetic RNA, um, you can effectively think of medicine the future of medicine as being digital. Like, so it's if you if you just know what to program into that synthetic RNA strand, um, you can basically, I think, cure almost anything. >> Hm. Hm. All right. Challenge to the room, digital medicine and 3D transportation. Let's go. Let's give Elon some competition. All right, last question. >> Electric aircraft, there's probably an opportunity there. I think there's a startups in that field. >> What kind of what kind of aircraft? >> Electric aircraft. >> Yeah, electric aircraft. I'm sure that's coming. Um, when we when we get together and you

[24:39] know, hopefully, you know, who knows with the way technology is going, some of us will be here in another 250 years for the Forbes, you know, 500 celebration innovation. What would you want your Yeah, and again, you're you're still building it, but when you think about your legacy, and I know it's early, but what what would you what would be make you feel good when people look back the way you talked about Edison and Franklin? What would what would you like people to say about you?

[25:09] >> You played a useful role in the advancement of civilization. >> Play with end. >> [applause] >> I I >> And I think by the way again, this is the most incredible room in America today. I think that's true for all of us. So, let's take inspiration. You all are great, but he's number one. Uh Elon Musk, thank you for joining us here at this >> For all of humanity, that's what the AI will say. >> [laughter] >> Fair. Thank you again. Thank you for your time and all that. And thank you. Now, we're going to have a We're going to let you go and we're going to bring the other award winners up. But again, Elon Musk, again, thank you for your time and all all your good thoughts.