WEBVTT

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Hey everybody. Hey everybody. We have an

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exciting show for you today. This is the

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15th and the final episode from the

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All-InSummit 2022.

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I wanted to take a quick moment to thank

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my team. They worked tirelessly over
a 100red days to make the event magical

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for everybody who was able to make it.

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Thanks to the audience for coming. Next
year we'll try to have twice as many of

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you there. Just a quick thank you to

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Amber, Ashley, Jackie, Nick, Fresh,

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Marine, Molly, Big Mike, Andre, Times 2,

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Rachel Reporting, Producer Justin,

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Jamie, Jimmy D, my brother Josh,

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everybody who came and supported the
event. We had an incredible crew. We had

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an incredible time. And of course,
I would be remiss if I didn't thank the

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amazing speakers who joined us from
all around the world. So candid, so

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insightful. My pal Bill Gurley, Bry

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Gersonner, Adena, Mara, Tandis, Tim,

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Elon, Antonio, Nate, Ryan, Claire, uh my

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boy Ra Boy, Antonio Garcia, Martinez,

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Joel, James, Mata, Glenn Greenwald, and

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of course, today's guest, the one and

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the only, Mr. Palmer Lucky. And most of

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all, I'd like to thank my besties,

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Chimat Saxs and Freeberg, who did an

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amazing job of hosting the event. Now, a

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little preamble here before we start

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this episode. Many of you have heard uh

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that this is a controversial episode.
It is a little controversial. There may be

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a little twist in it. So, I will be
coming back after Palmer Ly's talk to

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give you a little context because it
might get a little confusing. I don't

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want to spoil the surprise for you.
So, enjoy this episode.

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But before we go to this episode,
a lot of you have questions. You have

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questions about the future of the All-In
podcast. And those questions are

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important and um they're never going to

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be answered. They're never going to be
answered. But just so you know, I'm not

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leaving.

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I'm not leaving.

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I'm not leaving. [cheering]

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The show goes on. This is my home.

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They're going to need a wrecking ball
to take me out of here. They're going to

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need to send in the National Guard cuz
I ain't going nowhere. The show goes on.

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[music]

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>> We'll let your winners ride.

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>> Rainman, [music]

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>> we open source it to the fans and
[music] they've just gone crazy with it.

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Love you. [music]

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>> So, my name is Palmer Lucky. I founded
two companies. My first was a company

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called Oculus VR that I founded when I
was 19 years old and living in a camper

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trailer. Thank you. Thank you.

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um sold that to for a few billion

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dollars to Facebook and then got fired
a few years later and then started Android

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because I wanted to work in the national
security space for a variety of reasons

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and I'll get into some of those reasons
today. So the technology industry for

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many years has prided itself on being
the first to understand where things are

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heading so that they can build the things
that are going to be relevant for

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the future. on national security
though and on the rise of our strategic

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adversaries. It was one of the last
industries to realize where things were

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going due to a variety of ideological
reasons but also business reasons.

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Silicon Valley didn't just predict
the importance of defense in the 2020s. It

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largely took the exact wrong position,
the opposite position. Uh first of all,

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you have the obvious examples like big
technology companies explicitly refusing

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to do work with the Department of Defense.
Google is one big example, but

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the worst examples are really in the
startups that don't exist because people

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didn't want to even get into such a

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controversial space less it ruined their

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careers. Um, you know, when I started

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Anderoll, I had already sold a company

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for billions of dollars and investors

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still didn't want to invest. I still had
a tough time in a lot of meetings with

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venture capitalists and none of the
conversations with VCs that I had were

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about my ability to hire or execute or
build products. Everyone believed that I

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could do those things, even the ones who
didn't like me much. The vast majority

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of conversations that we had were about
whether or not it was even ethically

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okay to ever build a company that would
build weapons. And the people who turned

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us down, the ones who decided not
to invest in Anderole, actually believed

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that we had a good team and good people
and good product market fit. The issue

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is that they thought that it was
inherently wrong to build tools capable

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of being used for violence because
they believed that the idea of deterring

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violence through having a strong arsenal

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was fundamentally obsolete and itself
wrong. Uh even you know imagine how hard

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it would have been to raise money if
I hadn't founded Oculus would have been

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impossible. Even after we raised
money and got traction the negativity

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continued there there was a really
interesting uh cover story in Bloomberg

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in 2019 that called us tech's most

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controversial startup. This was a year
where Tik Tok was banning users for

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calling attention to the weaker genocide
in in China and banning users for

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posting homosexual content. This is a
year in which Adam Newman paid himself

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tens of millions of dollars for the
right to use the word we. It's a year

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that Uber was under a federal
investigation for its workplace culture

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immediately after a board coup that
ejected much of the leadership. It's a

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time where Facebook was getting hauled
in front of Congress to testify. But of

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course, as a tiny defense company
making a handful of purely defensive base

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security systems that committed
the crime of building technology for the

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military, Andrew was the one that
claimed the bel belt for the world's

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most controversial technology company.

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I'd say that the war in Europe has
totally shattered the idea that we live

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at the end of history. Every few
decades, we start to believe that

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economic ties have ended all prospect
of war. And every few decades, we're

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reminded that this isn't true. That's
is a very popular idea, especially in DC,

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that we live at what they call the end
of history. It's this idea that economic

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ties and interconnections make
the prospect of conflict fundamentally

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unthinkable, ignoring the fact that many
people see this as a matter of destiny,

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not economics. In 1909, English
economist and politician Norman Angel

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published an entire book called
The Great Illusion. And it was entirely

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about how war in Europe was impossible
and that spending money on building

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militaries that could deter conflict
was a waste of time that could be better

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spent building utopia. The he
specifically argued that any European

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country annexing another would be
as absurd as London annexing Herford. And

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the book was actually the number one
bestseller in 1909. Now, we've had some

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version of this argument for a few
decades now, ever since the Cold War

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started. And luckily, a lot of people
are waking up. But unfortunately, it's

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not because they've come to a reasoned

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decision based on the fundamental

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principles at play. It's because right
now supporting the military, supporting

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defense, and supporting Ukraine in

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particular has become the current thing.

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And in current year, current thing
is the thing that you have to support

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regardless of what you think of the
underpinnings. Unfortunately, for issues

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like defense and national security,
the stakes are too high and the relevant

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timelines far too long for people
to start caring about things at the moment

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that they need to start caring about them.
So today, I want to talk a little

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bit about why I started Andreal and why

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you should all think exactly
the same way that I do.

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So why I founded Androl, I thought that I
would work on virtual reality for my

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entire life. I had no plans on leaving

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Oculus at all. And I I love virtual
reality. I loved virtual reality. I

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started Oculus as a teenager and I would
have been there for another 50 years. I

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said as much less than 30 days before I
was fired. Uh and there there's a a lot

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of reasons for that, some of which I'll
get into later. Uh but the decision was

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made for me. I gave $9,000 against
the wrong political candidate and it was

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pretty unpopular in Silicon Valley.

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Before I worked on Oculus, I actually
worked in an Army affiliate research

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center on a program called Bravemind,
which was an Army project to treat

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veterans with post-traumatic stress
disorder using virtual reality exposure

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therapy. Basically putting them into
virtual reality environments that would

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set off their symptoms and then under
the guidance of a licensed therapist

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who's also in the simulation, they
could be taught coping skills that would

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reduce their dependency on medication
and medical aid. Uh it was a really

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fantastic program. I wasn't doing
anything important on it. I was just a

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lab technician, a cable monkey.
But I got a lot of exposure to both the

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virtual reality uh technology side, but
also how broken defense procurement was,

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how slow it was, how old a lot of the
technology was, how the incentives were

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totally misaligned. And ever since then,
I'd always wanted to make a contribution

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to national security if I could. Just
took a few years for the right for the

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right set of circumstances to come up.

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The defense industry in America is
fundamentally broken. uh you know before

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even getting into the specific problems
of our defense industry, the United

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States has the strongest commercial
artificial intelligence industry in the

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world followed closely by China.
But at the same time, the United States

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military and the prime contractors that
dominate the military-industrial complex

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have none of the right tools, talent,
or incentives to apply autonomy to the

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systems they do. There's no reason
to save cost because they don't get paid

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for making things that work. They get
paid for doing work. And in a world

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where you get more prestige and more
money by having more people working on

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bigger things, there's no reason to use
autonomy to reduce costs and increase

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capability. The US military is well
behind the Chinese people liber people's

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liberation army in the implementation of
artificial intelligence. Um there's more

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better AI in John Deere tractors than
there is in any US military vehicle.

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There's better computer vision
in the Snapchat app on your phone than any

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system that the US Department of Defense
has deployed. And other countries are

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taking notice of this. Countries like
Russia and China do not want to compete

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with us toe-to-toe with the tools that
we have. People will make fun of China

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and say, "Oh, they have a they don't
have a blue water navy. They only have

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one aircraft carrier coming up onto
uh you they could never fight us." The

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reality is that that's not where they're
going to fight us. They're going to arm

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proxies or if they engage directly,
they're going to use technologies that

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give them an asymmetrical advantage
in the areas where we are the least

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competent. These are the areas
where they are putting a lot of their

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resources. The reason that Vladimir
Putin is saying that the ruler of the

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world is going to be the country that
masters artificial intelligence is not

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because he thinks that they are going
to lose at this. It's because he thinks

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that that is one of the only ways that
they're going to be able to get the best

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of us. Now, the people
who are building technology

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for our military, the large defense
primes, I won't name any names because

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I'm I'm not I I I don't want to I don't
want to wrestle too many feathers in

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that area. You never know who's in the
room. But the people who are building

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the technology for the United States
military, the people who spend all their

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time do not have access to the best
talent. They do not have access to the

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people that the technology industry has
largely had a monopoly on in areas like

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autonomy, artificial intelligence,

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sensor fusion, high-end networking.
And then at the same time, the people who

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can build who can build good software,
the ones who do work in these technology

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companies are largely prohibited from
doing so. And even if they're working on

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something that the military buys,
let's say all the people at Apple who are

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working on an iPhone that can be sold
to the US Air Force, that same iPhone is

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also being sold to Russian intelligence,
that same iPhone is being sold to the

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Chinese Navy. Uh working on technologies
that help the United States don't give

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us a strategic or competitive advantage
if everyone else is getting the exact

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same thing. Uh the other problem
to consider is that asymetric technologies

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like artificial intelligence are almost
certainly going to empower nations that

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we aren't thinking about today. Some
of them are a little more obvious like

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Iran. It was a close US ally until
the late 1970s and today obviously is in a

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very different position. There's about
a dozen countries in Africa, South

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America, and Asia that were they
to acquire extremely advanced artificial

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intelligence either through coincidence
or by proxy arming would almost

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certainly start to wage war on their
neighbors in a very destabilizing way.

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It would have been a much sher bet
for me to found a second unicorn in a

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different industry that wasn't so
fundamentally broken. Uh gaming, fast

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casual dining, fintech, I could have
made some ape coins. But there have

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actually been more mattress unicorns

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than defense unicorns in the last 35
years. Uh but I decided the best thing

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that I could do to try and solve this
problem was to use the fact that I had a

00:11:58.560 --> 00:12:01.357
bunch of money and I had a bunch
of credibility to do something that was

00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:03.997
hugely unpopular. to ignore the fact

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that people were belittling me for it
and try to convince a bunch of brilliant

00:12:08.560 --> 00:12:11.997
people to come along with me so that they
wouldn't waste their lives spending

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augmented reality mustache emojis and
instead they could do some work for our

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armed forces.

00:12:19.680 --> 00:12:23.437
But it's worth looking at the past and
realizing that this is a recent problem.

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It's not something that has been
the case for a very long time. Um Silicon

00:12:27.520 --> 00:12:31.917
Valley was largely built on the back
of defense in 1947. Half of Stanford's

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engineering budget came from the
Department of Defense. Fred Turman,

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Stanford Dean, brought DoD contracts and
interest to the West Coast in a way that

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had fundamentally been limited almost

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entirely to the East Coast. And Silicon

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Valley helped power a lot of the things

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that are powering the modern military

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machine. In the 1950s alone, we built

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the Pentagon in well, sorry, I I I I I I

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have an error in my notes. This is

00:12:56.400 --> 00:12:59.997
wrong. um in the leadup to the 50s and

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the early 50s. We built the Pentagon
in 16 months. We completed the Manhattan

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project in three years. We put a man
on the moon in under a decade. And just

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between 1951 and 1959, we built five
generations of fighter jets, three

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generations of bombers, two classes of
carriers, nuclearpowered submarines, and

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ballistic missiles to go on top of them.

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If you look at the current state of the
industry, we're lucky to do even one of

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these things in a decade.

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And I can't really blame the the defense
industry for not working with the DoD

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entirely. It's not just an ideological
problem. It's also an economic problem.

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When the Cold War ended, the government
really became a pretty terrible

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customer. The technology industry
drifted away. Most engineers in Silicon

00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:42.557
Valley do not remember a great power
conflict because they haven't lived in a

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world where a great power was a
existential threat to the United States.

00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:49.197
And so you have a lot of people who are
ideologically opposed to working with

00:13:49.280 --> 00:13:52.397
the military. Now, we could spend
an entire talk. I only have a few minutes

00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:56.077
to talk today. We can talk spend a whole
talk talking about the ethics of defense

00:13:56.160 --> 00:13:59.677
and you know what what the reasonable
critiques of the military are and how

00:13:59.760 --> 00:14:03.757
you can change what you build for them
in a good way. But I I'll I'll throw out

00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.197
a factor that I think most people don't
think about enough. Even the people who

00:14:07.280 --> 00:14:09.037
do agree on working with the military.

00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.437
Um, there's a lot of companies in

00:14:11.520 --> 00:14:16.157
Silicon Valley and and and elsewhere
who look at those employees who are

00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:19.277
ideologically opposed to working
with the military and they use them as a

00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.717
smoke screen pretending that it's
principled opposition that drives their

00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:25.997
decision when in reality they want
access to Chinese markets. They want

00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.517
access to Chinese investment. They want
access to other countries that are tied

00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:32.397
into these things. And so they're
able to use these people who are

00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:34.797
ideologically opposed to working with
the military, which actually make up a

00:14:34.880 --> 00:14:38.957
pretty small fraction of the US
population, as a smoke screen for their

00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:42.557
real intention, which is to preserve
access to those markets, preserve access

00:14:42.640 --> 00:14:47.197
to those capital. Um, our largest
companies are not making these decisions

00:14:47.280 --> 00:14:50.237
based on what is best for the United
States. Certainly not what is best for

00:14:50.320 --> 00:14:51.437
the United States in the long term.

00:14:51.520 --> 00:14:55.837
They're largely making the decisions
based on short-term ideas that are not

00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:58.077
based in any kind of long-term thinking.

00:14:58.160 --> 00:15:02.077
If you look at the recent chips bill
that Congress passed saying that they're

00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:06.557
that the United States government
is going to put uh 50 billion 52 billion

00:15:06.640 --> 00:15:09.917
dollars into building semiconductors
in the United States. You have to compare

00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:14.237
that with the recent news that well
it leaked. It wasn't wasn't news on

00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.557
purpose. Uh but Apple has pledged to put

00:15:16.640 --> 00:15:20.237
$275 billion as one company into Chinese

00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.077
manufacturing. You have one company
putting in more than five times as much

00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:27.597
money into manufacturing advanced
technology as what is supposed to be a

00:15:27.680 --> 00:15:31.597
landmark piece of US legislation.
The situation that we're in is is pretty

00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:33.917
weird. Uh

00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:38.797
this is going to sound hyperbolic,
but bear with me. The situation we were we

00:15:38.880 --> 00:15:42.317
are in right now would be like if
in the buildup to World War II, General

00:15:42.400 --> 00:15:45.517
Electric had said, "You know what? We
really like the United States, but we're

00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:47.197
actually very bullish on Imperial Japan.

00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:50.317
We think it's going to be a huge growth
opportunity for us and our metrics just

00:15:50.400 --> 00:15:53.617
aren't going to look the same if we
wipe those off of our roadmap. Imagine

00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:57.677
[snorts] if in the buildup to the Cold
War if you had had Westinghouse and

00:15:57.760 --> 00:16:01.677
other major US technology companies say,
"Ah, you know, we love manufacturing in

00:16:01.760 --> 00:16:04.557
the United States, but we actually
think communist manufacturing is a really

00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:07.757
interesting experiment that we need to see
through and you know, we're not sure

00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.437
that we really want to take a side
on this." Uh, the situation that we are in

00:16:11.520 --> 00:16:15.917
today is as dire or worse. The only
reason that it seems ridiculous and the

00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:19.117
only reason it seems hyperbolic is because
conflict has not actually broken

00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.717
out yet. If a conflict does break out,
we're going to look at the current

00:16:22.800 --> 00:16:25.757
situation where we are hugely
strategically and economically dependent

00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.437
at the highest levels of our technology
industry and government on an adversary

00:16:29.520 --> 00:16:33.197
that is literally committing genocide,
enslaving millions of people. Uh we are

00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:36.717
going to look back on ourselves
and feel really stupid.

00:16:36.800 --> 00:16:40.877
Now the good news is that because of
Russia's invasion of Ukraine, defense is

00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:43.517
now the current thing. Uh in the United

00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:45.197
States,

00:16:45.280 --> 00:16:48.477
there is this idea that any problem can

00:16:48.560 --> 00:16:53.517
be fixed at the last second with just
a really incredible twist if we just come

00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.037
up with the right thing. But there's
a lot of problems out there that cannot be

00:16:57.120 --> 00:17:01.117
solved that way. national security,
economic policy, environmental policy.

00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:04.637
These are things that require
non-political bipartisan agreement on

00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:07.437
the problem decades before it becomes a

00:17:07.520 --> 00:17:11.677
really big problem. Those are not things
that are acceptable current things. Uh

00:17:11.760 --> 00:17:14.077
shape rotation, this is an acceptable

00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:16.717
current thing to debate. Uh whether or

00:17:16.800 --> 00:17:20.637
not Will Smith was wrong to uh to to

00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:24.397
wrong to take the slap or if he's just,
you know, a representative of warrior

00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:27.597
culture, you know, that's that's
a that's a fair debate to have. The idea

00:17:27.680 --> 00:17:31.277
of the United States having a military
that is strong enough to deter conflict

00:17:31.360 --> 00:17:34.477
should not be in that category. Um, so

00:17:34.560 --> 00:17:38.477
why is it too why is it too late to care
about defense now at this exact moment

00:17:38.560 --> 00:17:41.197
in time? Why is it too late
for everybody to suddenly change their

00:17:41.280 --> 00:17:44.957
minds? Uh, well, a few things. One, you
go to war with the tools that you have,

00:17:45.040 --> 00:17:47.997
not the tools that you wish you had or
the tools that you start working on when

00:17:48.080 --> 00:17:50.477
things become a problem. If you look
at the weapons that were given to Ukraine,

00:17:50.560 --> 00:17:54.717
they were built in the 80s, '90s,
and 2000s, $40 billion plus worth of them.

00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:57.357
And for all their differences,
defense is one of the few things that

00:17:57.440 --> 00:18:00.877
Republicans and Democrats alike have
realized transcends the partisan divide.

00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:03.837
On one level, it's obviously very bad
that we don't have more modern weapons

00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.437
to give to Ukraine. But on the other,
it shows a level of foresight in planning

00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:11.117
that we've been stockpiling and building
these legacy weapon systems for decades

00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:16.317
explicitly for a situation like today,
which has been war gamed out to the nth

00:18:16.400 --> 00:18:19.037
degree. Imagine if the Department
of Defense had done nothing to prepare for

00:18:19.120 --> 00:18:21.757
war for 40 years. And then as soon
as war broke out, they started tweeting a

00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:25.517
lot and changed their profile pictures
to Ukraine flag and then started saying,

00:18:25.600 --> 00:18:29.677
you know, we we stand with Ukraine.
Uh the people who are actually tasked with

00:18:29.760 --> 00:18:33.437
solving these problems are uh they
generally have good planning, but

00:18:33.520 --> 00:18:38.157
there's only so much they can do
without good technology. Um so I want to

00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.997
reiterate, if you only start building now,
you've lost the chance to deter war

00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:44.637
from happening. That's the real purpose
of the defense industry. It's not to

00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:47.917
fight wars. It's not to win wars.
It's to prevent wars from happening. Wars

00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.917
happen when one or both sides
misestimate their probability of

00:18:52.000 --> 00:18:55.597
winning. If both sides agree that one
side or the other is going to win,

00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.877
typically you end up with diplomatic
resolution. It's when both sides

00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.037
disagree about the possibility of

00:19:01.120 --> 00:19:06.077
winning that conflict actually actually
breaks out. And so if you actually want

00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.397
to prevent conflict from happening
in the first place, you have to get

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.077
involved well ahead of time. If you
get involved after conflict breaking out

00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.837
breaks out like so many companies have,
you're ensuring that you're only going

00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:19.837
to be a part of the killing. you're
only going to be a part of the bloodshed.

00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:23.117
You're only going to be a part of the war.
You're not going to be a part of

00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:26.717
preventing the war from
happening in the first place.

00:19:26.800 --> 00:19:30.957
So, I would argue that people in the
technology industry need to work on

00:19:31.040 --> 00:19:34.717
defense, not because it's the current
thing, but because it's the right thing.

00:19:34.800 --> 00:19:39.320
I have one more thing that I want to say.

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:46.237
Thank you. [applause]

00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:50.797
I talked earlier about NPC thinking that
prioritizes popularity over principles.

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:56.680
What I'm about to do is in very, very
bad taste, but I'm going to do it anyway.

00:19:56.800 --> 00:20:00.280
Yeah, we'll see.

00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:05.517
one of the people who I think
embodies this type of NPC

00:20:05.600 --> 00:20:08.077
thinking of going with what's popular

00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:11.037
and not being willing to to to ever

00:20:11.120 --> 00:20:15.437
reverse their position even when they're
proven wrong is Jason Calakanas. Let me

00:20:15.520 --> 00:20:18.717
read about some of the things he said
about me over the years. Just a just a

00:20:18.800 --> 00:20:21.517
small sampling.

00:20:21.600 --> 00:20:25.677
Palmer lucky hideous.

00:20:25.760 --> 00:20:27.837
What an idiot.

00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.797
A This guy, Parker Lucky, Parker

00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:33.517
Lucky, a complete and utter

00:20:33.600 --> 00:20:36.717
Jesus, this kid is an idiot. Palmer

00:20:36.800 --> 00:20:39.277
Lucky is just an idiot and a troll. He

00:20:39.360 --> 00:20:45.037
is dumb. So, so, so dumb.

00:20:45.120 --> 00:20:48.637
Oh, no. We got to keep going. For him
to pull the plug on the Palmer Lucky

00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.077
experience was brilliant.
Kudos, Zuckerberg.

00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:54.557
A complete lack of moral character and

00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:00.077
leadership. Palmer lucky a complete

00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:04.557
Palmer doesn't care about any of his
employees, family members, or team

00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:08.957
members. Now, this doesn't include any
of the lies that he's told about me. This

00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:11.757
doesn't include any of the lies he's
told about my businesses. This doesn't

00:21:11.840 --> 00:21:14.717
include any of the terrible things that
his co-hosts and guests had said about

00:21:14.800 --> 00:21:19.277
me over the years that went unchallenged
and egged on. If I'm a hideous, stupid

00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:23.437
person with no morals who doesn't
care about my family or my employees, I

00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:27.597
shouldn't be invited here, no matter
how relevant Ukraine is. He's had many

00:21:27.680 --> 00:21:30.957
chances to retract or apologize these
statements. And rather than taking any

00:21:31.040 --> 00:21:34.317
of them, he keeps telling people
that the reason I won't be on his show is

00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:38.877
because I'm too thin skinned because I
disagree with him on some of the things

00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:42.957
he said about Oculus. This is not the
case. I've explicitly told him why I've

00:21:43.040 --> 00:21:46.477
refused to be on his show. It's because
he and his crew of bullies have been

00:21:46.560 --> 00:21:48.797
vicious liars who have attacked me for

00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:53.597
years and bered me for years and spread
lies about me for re years years in a

00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.677
way that I've been able to overcome
that very few entrepreneurs would have the

00:21:57.760 --> 00:22:01.757
money or the resources or the
credibility to do. And being nice to a

00:22:01.840 --> 00:22:05.357
few people like I'm sure he's being nice
to you does not excuse this. This isn't

00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:08.797
debatable whether it happened or not.
It clearly happened. It's these are all

00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:11.757
direct quotes from things that he said
over the years, both while I was at

00:22:11.840 --> 00:22:14.637
Oculus and during my time after Oculus.

00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.237
And Jason, like many influential people,
some of them even in this room, who have

00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:22.397
treated me like for years, suddenly
changed their tune as soon as Andreal

00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.397
was on the upswing, as soon as we were
doing good things. They started inviting

00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:29.757
me on their podcasts, liking all
my social media posts, putting me on their

00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:33.677
innovator lists, all without any
acknowledgement whatsoever that they

00:22:33.760 --> 00:22:37.037
were the ones that were attacking me
when it was popular, kicking me while I

00:22:37.120 --> 00:22:40.797
was on the ground, and treating me like
garbage. It's really pathetic because a

00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:43.757
lot of my remaining critics at least
are basing their opinions on some kind of

00:22:43.840 --> 00:22:47.517
consistent worldview. A lot of other
people are attacking me and the work

00:22:47.600 --> 00:22:51.357
that I do because it's popular. When
it's popular to attack me, they attack

00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.277
me. when it's unpopular to attack me,
when Ukraine is being attacked, they are

00:22:55.360 --> 00:22:58.877
suddenly friends. And those are the same
people that I know are going to go back

00:22:58.960 --> 00:23:03.357
to on me the second that it becomes
popular again. Um, I'm coming to

00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:06.797
the end of this. And I know that you
guys are probably thinking, "Wow, this

00:23:06.880 --> 00:23:08.157
guy's pretty thin skinned for a

00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:14.120
billionaire." That's fair. That's fair.

00:23:15.820 --> 00:23:17.840
[cheering]

00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.037
But I want to remind you of something.

00:23:25.120 --> 00:23:28.557
Jason and the people like him are
the reason I was fired from my OC from

00:23:28.640 --> 00:23:33.037
Oculus, my own company. The company,
it was my heart and my soul for my entire

00:23:33.120 --> 00:23:35.437
teenage and adult life. For him, it was

00:23:35.520 --> 00:23:37.757
a game. It was his show. And for me, it

00:23:37.840 --> 00:23:40.797
was everything. And I lost everything.

00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:46.527
It almost destroyed me. I'm still filled
with rage about it. I always will be.

00:23:46.610 --> 00:23:48.797
>> [snorts] >> I'll end with this.
I was able to create

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.237
Andreal because a small group of people
were willing to give me a second chance

00:23:52.320 --> 00:23:55.917
to let me build something great
in an important but controversial industry

00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.037
that was being constantly bered
by people who thought we lived at the end

00:23:59.120 --> 00:24:03.437
of history. They invested in me while
Jason was trying to poison my career and

00:24:03.520 --> 00:24:05.837
keep me on the ground. Thank God he

00:24:05.920 --> 00:24:11.117
failed. Thank God for investors who
ignore him and people like him. The

00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:13.437
market conditions suggest there are
going to be a lot of founders, hopefully

00:24:13.520 --> 00:24:16.717
none of the people in this room, losing
their startups over the next year or so.

00:24:16.800 --> 00:24:20.637
And I pray that they get a second chance
like I did. I pray they aren't deterred

00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:25.037
from working on important but unpopular
problems. I pray that they will

00:24:25.120 --> 00:24:26.637
successfully claw their way back to

00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:29.437
success. That they aren't deterred from

00:24:29.520 --> 00:24:33.837
working on things that really matter.

00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:36.077
I pray that they manage to do this

00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:38.397
despite the inevitably stupid and hot

00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.037
takes. sorry, inevitably stupid and

00:24:41.120 --> 00:24:45.437
spiteful hot takes that Jason,
his associates, and the many

00:24:45.520 --> 00:24:47.597
people like him who make money spewing

00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:53.640
are certainly going to be putting
out there. Amen. Thank you.

00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:12.470
>> [cheering]

00:25:15.030 --> 00:25:19.800
[applause] >> Uh,

00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:22.557
>> nice talk.

00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:28.280
>> Well, great to meet you in person.

00:25:28.560 --> 00:25:32.957
>> Um, Jason, what lessons have
we LEARNED HERE TODAY? [laughter]

00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:36.637
WELL, I mean, I guess we were talking
backstage and Jason's like, "Oh, you

00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:39.357
know, I had to do so much to get this
guy here because I think he hates me."

00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.357
And this was before this happened.

00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.277
And I was like, "Well, maybe
you shouldn't talk about people."

00:25:45.360 --> 00:25:48.477
>> Well, the the good thing is I was able
to make it to this stage to say this.

00:25:48.560 --> 00:25:51.357
Most of the people that you've gone
after this way will never have that

00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:55.117
opportunity because they won't start
a second unicorn. I'm only here because I

00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:58.157
managed to claw my way back. And remember,
this is personal because it's

00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:01.837
not just you. It's you. You're one of
the most influential certainly, but it's

00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:06.717
you and really a small cadre of people
that by attacking me ceaselessly made it

00:26:06.800 --> 00:26:11.277
impossible for me to continue my tenure
at Oculus. I'm really lucky I clawed my

00:26:11.360 --> 00:26:17.177
way back cuz that's exceedingly rare
for a company to do a person to do that.

00:26:17.260 --> 00:26:20.717
>> [applause] >> What?

00:26:20.800 --> 00:26:24.237
I was hoping to talk about your new
thing, but I guess since we have no

00:26:24.320 --> 00:26:28.637
choice but go here. Well,
what happened at Facebook

00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:30.877
and maybe you just explain that and what

00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:34.077
I I got wrong about what happened.

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:37.437
>> Well, it's not just what's wrong.
This is actually why I I I went out of my

00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:41.357
way. There's actually a lot of lies you
told and spread and your co-hosts and

00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:44.317
your guests. Uh but I'm not even talking
about those. The things that I listed,

00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:48.077
you'll notice these aren't material
accusations. These are just personal

00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:49.597
attacks you've made on my character.

00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:53.037
These are just things you've said
about me personally as a founder and

00:26:53.120 --> 00:26:55.677
entrepreneur. Vicious personal attacks.

00:26:55.760 --> 00:26:59.837
Separately, there's all of the lies
you've said about how Oculus didn't have

00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:03.277
any differentiated technology. It was
totally commoditized. Anybody could have

00:27:03.360 --> 00:27:07.277
done it. It really was just the right
thing at the right time. Like, we could

00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:10.477
spend all day talking about why these
aren't true. But the real reason that it

00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:13.677
became untenable for me and the real
reason that I'm not in the VR industry

00:27:13.760 --> 00:27:17.917
is because people like you were enabling
those lies and then being vicious about

00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.357
it and attacking me personally.
It became clear I couldn't be a

00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.957
representative in an industry where people
are going to treat me like fairly or not.

00:27:25.040 --> 00:27:26.317
>> Imagine doing a podcast with them.

00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:31.240
>> What's that?
>> Imagine doing a podcast with

00:27:34.080 --> 00:27:36.557
>> I guess if you have no choice
but to keep I'll just ask you the same

00:27:36.640 --> 00:27:39.117
question. Do you want Do you want us
to just describe what Palmer's talking

00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:40.397
about? Can I Can I try my best?

00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:43.597
>> No, no, no. Hold on. What What What Cuz

00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:45.997
my memory of of the events. Uh,

00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:50.877
>> you just read all the things you said,
>> right? But what is the What were we

00:27:50.960 --> 00:27:54.477
talking about at the time? >> Well,
there was a lot of controversy at

00:27:54.560 --> 00:27:57.757
Facebook about some donations,
anonymous accounts, things you said.

00:27:57.840 --> 00:27:59.277
>> Well, so those that wasn't one thing.

00:27:59.360 --> 00:28:02.797
That was over the course of years. So,
that was just a small sampling. Um, I I

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:05.517
had to really find a small sample.
you know, you can't you can't ever do

00:28:05.600 --> 00:28:06.637
anything, but I'll tell you what happened.

00:28:06.720 --> 00:28:09.997
>> You got fired from Facebook. What
was the controversy there because that's

00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:11.837
what I was commenting on in this.

00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:14.877
>> Well, no, some of those were after I
was fired and you were saying it was great

00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:18.637
that I was fired. Um, and actually,
by the way, it's like one of your one of

00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:21.757
your co-hosts said on your show
that they're glad I got fired from my

00:28:21.840 --> 00:28:25.037
politics and that line is mysteriously
missing from your transcripts, by the

00:28:25.120 --> 00:28:27.837
way. Um, and there's >> we never
have edit we don't edit any of

00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:30.157
the things and I didn't have a co-host
at the time. It was probably just one of

00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:33.197
the news reporters who came on. we would
have interview them. But there was a lot

00:28:33.280 --> 00:28:37.517
of controversy wrong there. Here's what
happened. I gave $9,000 to a group that

00:28:37.600 --> 00:28:40.637
ran a single anti-H Hillary Clinton
billboard. That was actually the extent

00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:45.597
of it. And then a huge number of people
in the tech influencer space, the social

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.037
media talking heads and media.
They started saying Palmer Lucky is this

00:28:49.120 --> 00:28:52.317
terrible person who's funding all >>
Sorry, just to be clear. So you made a

00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:55.837
donation and it was on an FC filing
somewhere. Somebody pulled it out and

00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:58.637
then basically said >> like
to a pack or something? It was so

00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:03.277
it was to a it was to a 501c4 I believe
who used that for their political harm.

00:29:03.360 --> 00:29:06.877
Um so but it it was it was public.
This was it wasn't public filing. Yeah.

00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:09.917
>> Yeah. And so and I and I actually ended
up giving a quote to a reporter about

00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:13.437
it. Uh so you know it wasn't it wasn't
uh it it wasn't something that people

00:29:13.520 --> 00:29:17.357
understood what it was but then a bunch
of people just lied. They said Palmer

00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:21.517
Lucky was funding uh people who are
attacking Hillary Clinton supporters

00:29:21.600 --> 00:29:24.717
online. Uh there were a lot of people
who I think were looking for a scapegoat

00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:29.517
to kind of be the right-wing uh
the right-wing reaction to correct the

00:29:29.600 --> 00:29:32.797
record, which actually
was paying people to attack.

00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.317
>> Why did Zuck fire you? >> What's that?

00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.317
>> Why did Zuck fire you? >> Oh,
no. Zuck didn't fire me. He's way

00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:40.717
>> face Why did I'll just ask the third

00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:43.437
time. Why did Facebook fire you?

00:29:43.520 --> 00:29:46.717
>> There's a lot of reasons.

00:29:46.800 --> 00:29:48.637
>> I always had good performance reviews.

00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.397
Uh, but what it what but

00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:55.837
what >> here here's what
it what what it really

00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:00.397
boiled down to was this.
>> This is my favorite talk by far.

00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.237
>> What it really boils down to is this.

00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:06.237
Uh, it was clear that there were a lot
of people in the media and in the tech

00:30:06.320 --> 00:30:09.837
industry who were going to continue
attacking me. We hoped it would blow

00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:12.957
over, but they kept attacking me for
months and months and months and months.

00:30:13.040 --> 00:30:15.597
I was put on leave for 6 months.
I don't know if you know that.

00:30:15.680 --> 00:30:18.557
>> Right. is all on the heels
of this one political donation.

00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:22.557
>> Correct. >> $9,000. >> Yes.
And so on the heels that the hope

00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:25.277
was that it would go away. Now, I think
here's here's the real problem. I think

00:30:25.360 --> 00:30:29.037
if Trump had lost, people could have said,
"Oh, well, you know, he's just one

00:30:29.120 --> 00:30:31.597
of those eccentrics impact. No impact.

00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:35.437
>> He's a loser. Loser,
but whatever." Uh Trump winning

00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:37.517
is I think what made it unable because

00:30:37.600 --> 00:30:40.797
people continued to attack me not for

00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:44.957
>> the $9,000 donation was the reason you
were fired just for just for supporting

00:30:45.040 --> 00:30:49.997
Trump. >> As you know these things are
very complex but more or less yes. I mean

00:30:50.080 --> 00:30:53.997
there's a there's a direct causal line
from that to me being put on leave to me

00:30:54.080 --> 00:30:55.677
not being allowed to come back and then

00:30:55.760 --> 00:30:57.437
pushed out. We talk a lot about this on

00:30:57.520 --> 00:31:01.517
the pod on um mob behavior and and I

00:31:01.600 --> 00:31:05.677
think uh Mark Andre said the smartest
thing I've read on Twitter in the year.

00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:09.917
I retweeted it and I took it away and I
think he pointed out that it's it feels

00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.477
safer to be in the mob
than to not be in the mob.

00:31:12.560 --> 00:31:14.797
>> Well, it always cuz when you're in the

00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:19.597
mob, you're part of the group, but you
also get to attack and it's safe to

00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:22.637
attack when you're in the group, >> right?
And I think by the way what you

00:31:22.720 --> 00:31:26.797
did there, one of the things I I I will
highlight irregardless of the content

00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:29.117
and the thing that was very brave and we

00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:34.157
don't see a lot of bravery nowadays.
And uh um [applause]

00:31:34.240 --> 00:31:37.517
and I I I don't mean that honestly I
don't mean that to disparage Jason, but

00:31:37.600 --> 00:31:41.117
like that sort of behavior where you
stand up and you say something that will

00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:45.437
be highly controversial and go against
the mob and against the tide and maybe

00:31:45.520 --> 00:31:48.317
piss off an entire room is something
that we don't see a lot of. And I think

00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:51.597
that that level of bravery is also
what's missing going back to the mid-

00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:55.437
20th century which allowed us to do all
the things you highlighted as a country

00:31:55.520 --> 00:31:58.877
last century that we're not doing anymore.
I appreciate your bravery more

00:31:58.960 --> 00:32:02.520
than anything. >> Thank you.
>> Yeah. [cheering]

00:32:03.840 --> 00:32:07.917
But but look, I I don't know about
the specifics with with JCAL, but it

00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.477
certainly seems that there's a lot
of this. We talk about this like with with

00:32:10.560 --> 00:32:14.557
Brian Armstrong standing up at Coinbase
and all the stuff that's gone on that we

00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:18.317
think I I I would argue probably made
Twitter a highly complacent place is

00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:22.397
everyone wants to be, you know,
you don't want to stand up and you don't

00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:25.597
want to make that change and you don't
want to be brave and you want to be part

00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:28.157
of the mob of the of the
crowd attacking the right.

00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:33.357
>> Well, people see what happens. I
mean the the what happened to me has like

00:32:33.440 --> 00:32:36.637
this is this is I can't I can't back
this up obviously this is getting into

00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:40.637
personal anecdote which is never a good
way to support any idea but you know I

00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:45.197
know a lot of people who remain
at Facebook and they will not say anything

00:32:45.280 --> 00:32:48.157
and they will not donate to any
politician >> yeah it's crazy

00:32:48.240 --> 00:32:51.037
>> who's left of Bernie because they
saw what happened to me and they've

00:32:51.120 --> 00:32:54.637
explicitly said I saw what happened
to you because remember it wasn't just the

00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:59.277
public it was the internal reaction
where people were saying oh my god uh

00:32:59.360 --> 00:33:02.237
like I will not work for a Trump
supporter. This is terrible. I mean

00:33:02.320 --> 00:33:05.517
actually one great example,
Andrew Bosworth,

00:33:05.600 --> 00:33:09.357
he ran ads at Facebook for 14 years.
He was put in after my departure as the

00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:13.437
head of Oculus and he was the guy who
was putting things on social media like

00:33:13.520 --> 00:33:17.917
I think the exact wording was if you
support Donald Trump because you don't

00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.877
like Hillary Clinton,
you are a shitty human being.

00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.477
>> And he's the person who's allowed
to lead Oculus now. So it's it's not a

00:33:24.560 --> 00:33:29.117
problem of being aggressive. It's being
on the right side of the politics. And

00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:31.437
so there's a lot of people where they're
just they're not going to say anything

00:33:31.520 --> 00:33:33.037
because they see what happens to me.

00:33:33.120 --> 00:33:38.477
Now, if Zach is loving this, [laughter]
>> and I tell when I hear somebody to

00:33:38.560 --> 00:33:39.957
disagree with, I'll let you guys know.

00:33:40.040 --> 00:33:44.030
[laughter] [applause]

00:33:46.560 --> 00:33:50.877
But the the the real the real the real
irony here is my contributions have been

00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:54.877
very open. But my advice to founders who
are on the right has actually been don't

00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.517
be public about your political leanings
because you won't accomplish anything.

00:33:57.600 --> 00:34:01.437
You will just you will be terminated
by the mob. You should focus on building.

00:34:01.520 --> 00:34:05.357
You should focus on creating value
and then after you don't need the rest of

00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:07.517
the industry, you can kick them to the

00:34:07.600 --> 00:34:08.877
curb and do something else. How do you

00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:12.557
how do you implement that philosophy

00:34:12.640 --> 00:34:17.757
um differently now at Anderil so that
you have a more inclusive place where

00:34:17.840 --> 00:34:20.797
folks on the left and folks on the right
come together work on things that really

00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.237
matter. I mean I think everybody agrees
you're building really important things

00:34:24.320 --> 00:34:27.197
in the world. So how do you do that this
time around? That's different from the

00:34:27.280 --> 00:34:29.597
Facebook experience. So >> there's
a few things. One I think that

00:34:29.680 --> 00:34:33.277
building working in national security
has been a great filter where uh people

00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:35.917
aren't going to come work for you
unless they're okay working in a bit of a

00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:38.397
controversial field. I'm actually
somewhat concerned about the Ukraine

00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:42.877
conflict in that regard in that in
the making of in in making defense

00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:46.237
mainstream, it makes it possible
for people to potentially say, "Oh, that

00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:48.717
isn't controversial now. I'm going
to go to this place and then I'm going to

00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.957
potentially attack people with their
views." But I think when you run a

00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:53.677
company that is inherently working
on something that's controversial, people

00:34:53.760 --> 00:34:57.037
on the right and on the left both
feel like they're on the side of this

00:34:57.120 --> 00:35:00.557
important bipartisan issue and all
of these other policy differences can kind

00:35:00.640 --> 00:35:03.437
of go to the side. And the culture
at Anderil is everyone is free to have

00:35:03.520 --> 00:35:07.117
whatever politics they want. You like
I'm a Republican. Our CEO, Brian Chimp,

00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:10.877
is a Democrat. We both make significant
contributions to our respective sizes

00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:14.957
and we have employees across the country.

00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:18.557
And I think also it's it's nipping it
in the bud. You know, it's about when

00:35:18.640 --> 00:35:22.317
somebody says something that is out
of line, it's about n getting in early and

00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:26.077
say, "Hey, that's not okay at this
company. We're we're here to to work on

00:35:26.160 --> 00:35:29.677
a common mission." For example, if we
had a manager who then publicly went and

00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:32.637
said, "The half of my employees who
support this political candidate,

00:35:32.720 --> 00:35:36.157
they're terrible people.
They're shitty humans. They'd be fired.

00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:39.197
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'll give
you a counterfactual to what

00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:42.637
this is, which is very aspirational,
which is seven or eight years ago, we

00:35:42.720 --> 00:35:46.877
funded a business that actually makes
seaf fairing drones. And the whole point

00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:51.357
was to actually measure the surface flux
in the oceans, which you can use to get

00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:53.117
a really good sense of climate change.

00:35:53.200 --> 00:35:55.197
And somewhere along the way, we had the

00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:57.677
chance to to do a contract with the DoD.

00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:02.397
Um, but invariably there's a a faction
of folks inside this company that said

00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.557
under no circumstances are we going
to put our efforts towards that. And as a

00:36:06.640 --> 00:36:08.157
result then the company spent a

00:36:08.240 --> 00:36:10.557
three-year detour trying to build a

00:36:10.640 --> 00:36:13.597
weather app. Um, which turned out to not

00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:17.997
be the right thing. And and 3 years
later um you know they're doing a bunch

00:36:18.080 --> 00:36:23.357
of stuff now with these government
agencies. Um, and it turns out that's

00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:25.917
the right thing to do because now
they're that much closer to actually

00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:29.837
mapping the world's oceans which creates
a repository of data and there's all

00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:33.357
these positive knock-on effects that
sometimes folks don't see. And you need

00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.797
strong leadership to kind of say it's
what Elon said yesterday. You know,

00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:41.197
companies are there to make products
that people and organizations want and

00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:45.117
need u not necessarily to fight over
political ideals. Well, I think one of

00:36:45.200 --> 00:36:47.597
the interesting things in the example
you just gave, like I I mentioned

00:36:47.680 --> 00:36:50.877
earlier, I have some empathy for people
who work in companies who don't want to

00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:54.477
work in defense. Like I think broadly
the technology industry needs to support

00:36:54.560 --> 00:36:56.957
the military. And I'm glad that the
conflict in Ukraine has changed at least

00:36:57.040 --> 00:37:00.397
the thinking around that. Uh but at the
individual level, people should have the

00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:03.117
right to choose to work on what they
think is important. And so the Google

00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:05.997
example was interesting because it was
Google employees saying, "Hey, I didn't

00:37:06.080 --> 00:37:09.437
sign up to work on weapons and I can
understand that maybe they're pacifist

00:37:09.520 --> 00:37:12.397
and they say, you know, for religious
reasons, for philosophical reasons, I I

00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:14.957
cannot work on this." and they were
upset that their work was put to work on

00:37:15.040 --> 00:37:17.997
defense without it being clear.
And I suspect that in the situation you're

00:37:18.080 --> 00:37:20.797
talking about is similar objections were
raised. Hey, this is when I joined the

00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:24.077
company to do this isn't what I signed
up for. And so at Andreal, one of the

00:37:24.160 --> 00:37:27.197
ways that we've been able to get around
this is just being very clear like you

00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:29.917
are signing up to work with the
Department of Defense. That is that is

00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:31.437
the mission that you're signing up for.

00:37:31.520 --> 00:37:35.677
And uh I mean we're we're about a third
US service veterans at Andro, which is

00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.237
higher than any company that I'm aware of.
And we're about a thousand people

00:37:38.320 --> 00:37:42.317
now. Um [applause] and so
these are people who uh they

00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.037
understand the importance
of the mission, >> right?

00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:47.677
>> Uh just shifting gears for a second,
I want to ask you about drones. First, let

00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.477
me just say that um the first time I
tried VR, which was Oculus, I thought it

00:37:52.560 --> 00:37:55.917
was one of the most magical computing
experiences I've ever had. So, I don't

00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:00.237
know, have you guys tried it?
You you put the goggles on. [applause]

00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.957
>> I did the thing >> and you're
in the Oculus trailer and

00:38:03.040 --> 00:38:07.357
it's like it was amazing. I did
the thing where you show like a big hole.

00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.397
>> Like Facebook had this demo for a while
or whatever and I thought I was going to

00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.837
fall into the hole and then I fell forward
and I fell on the ledge of the cliff table

00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.337
>> and I didn't I didn't want to like
tiptoe beyond it. I'm like I don't

00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:21.917
[laughter] know. I'm like wait I
know this is not real but anyway

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:25.677
>> VR is the it's so funny. These are I
feel these mental circuits that haven't

00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:29.997
activated for years activating.
So I've got my talking points but

00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:33.677
>> VR is the final computing platform.
It's not the next one. It's the final one.

00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:36.877
And people talk about augmented reality
and it's very interesting. I love AR. We

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.117
did a lot of great AR foundational work.

00:38:39.200 --> 00:38:41.917
But at the end of the day, if you
can make a tool that allows you to

00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:46.397
experience anything and in any way
that can emulate every other medium, it is

00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:50.717
going to be the >> Parker
caught on a question. Go ahead.

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:54.797
>> Well, I was going to ask
you ask about drones. Um, so um

00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:57.597
>> Well, maybe maybe I should answer.
Why isn't it caught on? It's not It's not

00:38:57.680 --> 00:39:00.877
good enough yet. People ask I'll have
this debate. People like, "Well, I'm not

00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:04.157
sure VR is ever really going to be
a thing. Explain the dimension when you

00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:06.397
say it's not good enough. Is it weight?

00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:09.437
Is it physical interface?
>> It's a whole bunch of things. It's

00:39:09.520 --> 00:39:12.237
content being available. You need
a self-sustaining ecosystem of a broad

00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:15.597
enough variety of content that enough
people can use it to create further

00:39:15.680 --> 00:39:18.317
network effects. So that's part of it
is just a content thing. You have to build

00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.557
a self-sustaining flywheel.
Until you have that

00:39:20.640 --> 00:39:22.397
>> apps aren't good enough
yet to draw people in.

00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:24.317
>> They're not good enough and they
don't they don't have broad enough appeal.

00:39:24.400 --> 00:39:27.117
There's a particular niche where we
have a flywheel. Like there's a dozens of

00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:30.877
developers that are making many millions
of dollars making games for Quest 2, but

00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:33.597
that's its own little niche. The other
thing is quality, its weight, and its

00:39:33.680 --> 00:39:35.917
cost. Like the example that I like
to use when arguing with people who say

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.317
that VR is not going to be a thing
that they spend their whole life in, say,

00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:41.517
"Okay, wait. Imagine this.
What if for $99 you can pair buy a pair of

00:39:41.600 --> 00:39:44.957
sunglasses and it gives you
an experience the quality of the Matrix or

00:39:45.040 --> 00:39:49.357
Sword Online or whatever your sci-fi pick
is >> and you can do anything and there's

00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:51.037
endless content. It'll >> get there."

00:39:51.120 --> 00:39:54.877
>> And it's people like, "Oh, of course
I would use that." But but but but that's

00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:58.237
not what VR is. Well, then that's just
a tech disagreement. Philosophically, we

00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.637
agree how fast we'll get there. So,
I mean, listen, you created the category.

00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:06.237
How far away are we?
>> It depends on the experience. So, the

00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.637
hardest things to simulate are going
to be the ones that are kind of like these

00:40:08.720 --> 00:40:12.237
multi-haptic multi-element things that
rely on scent and motion. Like surfing

00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.917
is going to be really, really hard.
Uh, on the other hand, being able to

00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.157
perfectly simulate the experience of being
in a brightly lit fluorescent, you

00:40:20.240 --> 00:40:22.797
know, fluorescent conference room,
that's going to happen within 10 years.

00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:25.517
Like the resolution will be there,
the weight will be there. You will be able

00:40:25.600 --> 00:40:26.557
to perfectly simulate that experience.

00:40:26.640 --> 00:40:29.037
You know how much of my life I've spent
flying to the other side of the world to

00:40:29.120 --> 00:40:32.317
sit in fluorescent lit conference rooms
and then flying back. If I if I can just

00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:35.677
eliminate that part of my life, it's
way better for me. But it's it's going to

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:39.117
start by simulating that experience
where it's low dynamic range. You don't

00:40:39.200 --> 00:40:41.677
need tons of haptics and then
it's going to go from there.

00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.117
>> Wait, Zach is going
to talk about drones.

00:40:43.200 --> 00:40:44.237
>> Yeah, let's just shift gears for a

00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.197
second to to drones. So um obviously in

00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:51.277
Ukraine right now the um the the Russian

00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:54.797
military and specifically their armors
has been pulverized by the combination

00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.997
of the Javelin plus this Turkish drone

00:40:58.080 --> 00:41:00.717
this I guess by Ractor. Yeah.

00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.277
>> So I guess this has raised the profile
I would imagine it's raised the profile of

00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:07.277
drones and uh the use of drones in the

00:41:07.360 --> 00:41:09.757
military. Also, it points out the

00:41:09.840 --> 00:41:13.197
weakness of having kind of a large

00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.877
platform strategy. In the case of the
Russian military, their platform is this

00:41:16.960 --> 00:41:18.957
Russian tank, but so is our military.

00:41:19.040 --> 00:41:23.197
We're built around aircraft
carriers and the F-35. Yes.

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.117
>> Um, and you know, the Abrams tank.
All these things, I would imagine, are

00:41:27.200 --> 00:41:30.157
susceptible to drones. And the thing

00:41:30.240 --> 00:41:34.557
that's destroying the Russians is their
tank costs a couple million bucks and it

00:41:34.640 --> 00:41:36.717
can be destroyed by a drone that costs

00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:39.437
200,000. many more than a million, tens

00:41:39.520 --> 00:41:43.917
of millions for EMP. So, we just won
a billion dollar contract with US SOCOM

00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.677
special operations command to to do
counter drone work. And so, to a certain

00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.717
extent, the what you have to do is then
say, okay, we're going to have these you

00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.197
these armored systems. We're going
to have these vessels and then we need to

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.997
have technology that allows to counter
drones and it is possible to counter

00:41:56.080 --> 00:41:58.317
drones. What's going on with Russia
is they don't have the technology to

00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:01.037
counter drones and so they're
they're largely just totally

00:42:01.120 --> 00:42:04.397
>> Can I Can I ask you something about
this contract just general terms? You said

00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:08.237
something very important before which is
the military-industrial complex today is

00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:11.197
basically paid to do work
not to get to a result.

00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:13.197
>> Yes. >> How do you
fight that when you're like

00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:17.757
when when you hear a billion dollar
contract is that cost plus that DoD just

00:42:17.840 --> 00:42:20.557
is willing to give you? So this is I
mean we could do a whole talk on this

00:42:20.640 --> 00:42:23.597
but fundamentally for people don't know
a cost plus contract structure is the

00:42:23.680 --> 00:42:25.997
way that most work for the Department
of Defense has done. That means you get

00:42:26.080 --> 00:42:29.197
paid for your time, your materials, your
people, and then a fixed percentage of

00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:33.277
profit on top even if you're way way
way way over your budget until Congress

00:42:33.360 --> 00:42:34.797
eventually takes them money.
>> And then there's layers of

00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:36.717
subcontractors, so the costs all add up.

00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:40.077
>> Exactly. And so the the bad the bad
thing about this is that not only the

00:42:40.160 --> 00:42:43.997
prime contractor owns the contract,
but everyone under them is incentivized to

00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:46.717
come up with the most expensive way of
solving a problem that they can convince

00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:49.917
the government to fund. So they wanted
to build the most expensive system with

00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:53.997
the most expensive parts with as many
hours as possible. And the bids are so

00:42:54.080 --> 00:42:57.517
complex that you're only going to have
one or two real bids and they're

00:42:57.600 --> 00:42:58.477
basically going to be the same price.

00:42:58.560 --> 00:43:01.197
>> And those top bids, the worst part
is they're not just trying to come up with

00:43:01.280 --> 00:43:03.917
the most successful solution. They're
even encouraging the subcontractors

00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:06.877
under them. They get a% >> because
they get a percent of that. And

00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:10.077
so if I'm getting, let's say,
6% profit margin, I want to make it

00:43:10.160 --> 00:43:12.157
>> as big a number as possible
>> and I want to drag it out like

00:43:12.240 --> 00:43:14.637
>> and that's why this budget's
ballooned like crazy despite the last.

00:43:14.720 --> 00:43:16.557
>> They make more money
when they do poorly

00:43:16.640 --> 00:43:19.437
because they're not being paid to make
things that work. They're being paid to

00:43:19.520 --> 00:43:23.437
do work. That's what I said.
Just the act of the doing is what gets

00:43:23.520 --> 00:43:25.197
>> now for you.
What do you do differently?

00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.237
>> So we use our own money to decide
what to build, how to build it when it's

00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.197
done. We're using building our own
products. And when we're going to the

00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:33.597
customer, we're not going to them.
Look, first of all, I can't just build

00:43:33.680 --> 00:43:36.077
whatever I want. I can't build
a Batmobile and then try to sell it to the

00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:39.597
army. But I I we we talk to them about
their problems. They understand their

00:43:39.680 --> 00:43:41.357
problems. They don't It would be cool.

00:43:41.440 --> 00:43:45.037
Be so patient. >> But but sorry.
Would you build someone

00:43:45.120 --> 00:43:48.717
in this room a Batmobile if he could
come up with the money? Look, if if it's

00:43:48.800 --> 00:43:52.877
if it solved a real problem, I mean,
if if that was the right way to solve

00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:57.437
profit, >> all right,
probably not. But but the

00:43:57.520 --> 00:44:00.077
nice thing about this is that when we
go to customers, we're not going to them

00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:04.557
with a white paper saying, "Hey, let the
taxpayers pay for us to try this out for

00:44:04.640 --> 00:44:07.917
years and years." We say, "We've already
proven that this works. It will not be a

00:44:08.000 --> 00:44:11.677
boondoggle for you. It will work." We go
to them with a working system with a full

00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:13.917
>> delivering goods
and services already derisked.

00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:16.957
>> Exactly. And and the thing
is this is popular with the customers and

00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:20.237
politicians alike because it removes
the risk of them getting into political

00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:22.877
boondoggles like the F-35
program being a trillion dollar.

00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:26.237
>> So this creates this creates new budget
line items because now folks are saying

00:44:26.320 --> 00:44:29.117
I can actually get out of this.
I'm going to move money from whatever

00:44:29.200 --> 00:44:32.237
pot of money I'm spending over here.
Move it into this sort of a

00:44:32.320 --> 00:44:35.117
structure and then that creates
competitive dynamics in the market.

00:44:35.200 --> 00:44:36.637
>> That's right. >> Yeah.
So how does it how does it

00:44:36.720 --> 00:44:41.037
actually close the loop? So for example,
you deliver a drone to the DoD, it costs

00:44:41.120 --> 00:44:42.877
$10,000. I'm making up a number. It cost

00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:46.797
$10,000 and it works on ABC dimension.

00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:50.397
And then there's whoever makes General
Dynamics makes the Hellfire drone.

00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.397
Again, I don't know
the specifics, >> of course.

00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:57.117
>> Uh, and they want
to charge 90,000 or 110,000.

00:44:57.200 --> 00:44:59.117
How do they still not get picked?

00:44:59.200 --> 00:45:02.237
Because it seems if you look at their um

00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:03.917
performance as public companies,

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:06.877
>> Yep. It's an incredibly steady. It's

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:09.437
almost like an inflationary line item,

00:45:09.520 --> 00:45:13.997
you know, that you can predict 6 8
9 10% growth consistently every year.

00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:17.117
>> Correct. It is. I mean, the defense
companies are not high growth, high

00:45:17.200 --> 00:45:19.757
margin companies. They're
extraordinarily predictable. People

00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.797
basically see them as an extension of
the US government. It's like buying bonds.

00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:25.197
>> The US federal budget. >> Yes.
Exactly. And as the window and when

00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.237
the budget goes up, you see a direct
proportional and linear increase.

00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:30.637
>> Palmer, let me ask you, hold on.
Hold on. Palmer, let me ask you a question

00:45:30.720 --> 00:45:34.397
about uh something very pragmatic
knowing what you know in the in the to

00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:39.277
your building and uh I do appreciate the
work you're doing defending the country.

00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:43.997
I think it's important work and I told
you that um and [applause] uh I lobbied

00:45:44.080 --> 00:45:47.357
you to be here >> uh to have
your platform and to have

00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:51.597
your voice and I've probably sent you
no less than 30 or 40 invites to come on

00:45:51.680 --> 00:45:55.117
the pods. Can't deny that. And so I told
you I'm willing to have any debate at

00:45:55.200 --> 00:45:57.997
any time. I'm going to put aside
the personal stuff, but knowing what you

00:45:58.080 --> 00:46:01.117
know, uh, doing this very good work, um,

00:46:01.200 --> 00:46:05.597
the situation in Taiwan, if it
does materialize, what would it

00:46:05.680 --> 00:46:07.357
look like

00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:12.157
today given the tools we have? And would

00:46:12.240 --> 00:46:16.877
we be able to would Taiwan be able
to defend itself? What would that look

00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.677
like? Cuz that seems to be the next
hot spot that we may have to do.

00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:22.637
>> Will weapons get shipped in there
like they are in the Ukraine? No, that we

00:46:22.720 --> 00:46:25.757
were able to ship weapons into Ukraine
because we had countries like Poland

00:46:25.840 --> 00:46:29.517
that were willing to at massive
existential risk to themselves step

00:46:29.600 --> 00:46:34.077
forward. Yeah. Pol Poland has been paint
unsung hero in this and getting weapons

00:46:34.160 --> 00:46:36.877
through. But Taiwan, what's going
to happen is there's a few ways this could

00:46:36.960 --> 00:46:41.117
go. It could either be just a blitz
where they go in, destroy the ports,

00:46:41.200 --> 00:46:44.557
destroy the airports, immediately occupy.
That's that could happen. The

00:46:44.640 --> 00:46:47.997
other way this could happen could be
a more drawn out blockade where they

00:46:48.080 --> 00:46:52.637
blockade the island. Is the US willing
to pull the trigger on a blockade? It's

00:46:52.720 --> 00:46:56.237
unclear. But if you can stop trade, if
you can economically strangle them, make

00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:59.277
sure new weapons don't get to them, they
can be in a very, very bad position. And

00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:02.717
it's not clear that we or anyone else
will be able to do that. No, there's

00:47:02.800 --> 00:47:05.677
different opinions on how things are
going to go. I I can't pretend that I

00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.877
know exactly what it is. I can say
Taiwan does not have the tools today

00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:12.397
that they need to deter Chinese
aggression. They might have had the

00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:15.357
tools they needed to deter it a decade
ago, but Chinese military has been

00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.797
ascendant. They've been investing
so heavily in new technology, distri

00:47:18.880 --> 00:47:22.077
distributed swarms, high-end electronic
warfare systems, and all of the

00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:24.957
amphibious landing craft that they're
going to need to perform an invasion.

00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:28.237
They they've just they've built
the capability that they need. It's just

00:47:28.320 --> 00:47:30.957
>> how vulnerable are
our aircraft carriers.

00:47:31.040 --> 00:47:32.877
>> How vulnerable are aircraft carriers?

00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.437
>> They're extremely vulnerable to the
point where we we feel like we can't use

00:47:35.520 --> 00:47:36.717
them. The problem is aircraft carriers

00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.677
were not designed to be a peer-to-peer

00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:42.557
uh a peer-to-peer great powers tool for

00:47:42.640 --> 00:47:46.717
us to go toe-to-toe with the Soviets or
the Chinese. Like the reality is if each

00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:50.557
side launches 200 missiles, one of them
is going to get through and it's going

00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:52.877
to end up hitting the thing. And this is
especially true with satellite targeting

00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.997
systems. They were designed in the
modern day to project power to places

00:47:56.080 --> 00:47:59.757
where you have air superiority
uncontested. So there it's great to have

00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:03.837
a mobile base that can go somewhere and
project power, but it you you you cannot

00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:07.757
stop the Chinese that way. And also if
we send a carrier out there uh and they

00:48:07.840 --> 00:48:10.557
manage to sync it, that's
5,000 lives lost in one hit.

00:48:10.640 --> 00:48:13.517
>> Hey Palmer, we got a wrap,
but I'll say this. Uh,

00:48:13.600 --> 00:48:15.677
>> wait. I I got to say
one more thing on Taiwan.

00:48:15.760 --> 00:48:17.837
>> Well, hold on a second.
Oh, not about me. Great. Go.

00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:23.800
>> No, no, no.
Not this time. Not this time.

00:48:24.240 --> 00:48:28.877
>> I was bracing for impact. I don't
have any anti-pommer drone systems.

00:48:28.960 --> 00:48:30.637
>> I I will say I will be
working on them next week.

00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:33.997
>> I will say this about Jal. If you did
that to Cara Swisser, she would have she

00:48:34.080 --> 00:48:36.957
would have like not she would
have pulled you off stage.

00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:38.397
>> Keep going. >> You're so right.

00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:40.557
>> Yeah. [cheering and applause]

00:48:40.640 --> 00:48:43.277
And I think I think I think I I will say

00:48:43.360 --> 00:48:47.197
so and and and JCL JCL is um he's an

00:48:47.280 --> 00:48:49.117
incredibly loyal friend. He's got an

00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:51.997
incredibly um good heart. And I think

00:48:52.080 --> 00:48:56.237
that you know whatever he said or did
uh it was really brave of him to come out

00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.037
here and also have the conversation. And
he wants to have the conversation, wants

00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:01.837
to have a dialogue. And he always wants
to do that with all of us. Sometimes he

00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:05.357
conflicts a bit and he and he butts heads.
But I will say this about JCal,

00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:09.197
he means well. And I want to kind
of say that for >> [applause]

00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:12.077
>> But anyway, finish your point about
Taiwan. Let's talk about the importance

00:49:12.160 --> 00:49:15.917
of that. >> Cara says,
"I'm a douchy man boy and a

00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.797
fourth reich broi." So, not that you

00:49:18.880 --> 00:49:23.037
remembered. Got to love memory.
I think your cosplay

00:49:23.120 --> 00:49:27.597
stuff is cool. I was I was brave enough
to do cosplay. I'm a little jealous of

00:49:27.680 --> 00:49:30.797
that. I'll be honest. And I would love
to go cosplay with you sometime. But

00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.717
tell us Taiwan.
>> Not the way to wrap the the the

00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:37.757
>> I WANT TO HEAR TAIWAN. All right. Yes.

00:49:37.840 --> 00:49:41.917
The big difference between Taiwan
and Ukraine is that we still have a chance

00:49:42.000 --> 00:49:46.077
to make a difference. So what I'm so
terrified of is that all these people

00:49:46.160 --> 00:49:49.197
who say, "Ah, we stand for Ukraine.
We have to do this. This is the fight of

00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:51.757
fight of our, you know, fight of our
generation." And then they're not going

00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:54.957
to do anything. And then immediately
after Taiwan is invaded, they're going

00:49:55.040 --> 00:49:58.077
to change their profile pictures
to a Taiwanese flag and say, "Oh man, we

00:49:58.160 --> 00:50:00.477
stand with Taiwan." It's like, "No,
that's not good enough. If you care

00:50:00.560 --> 00:50:04.557
about this issue, there's things you can
do right now." And and and what's really

00:50:04.640 --> 00:50:07.757
amazing to me is you have people who
are saying like, "Oh, man. I I stand with

00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.557
Ukraine. We're cutting off all of our
Russian business." I'm like, "Oh, wow.

00:50:10.640 --> 00:50:14.637
So brave. You cut off an entire country
that's a regulatory nightmare. Has an

00:50:14.720 --> 00:50:16.797
economy smaller than most US states."

00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:21.517
Sorry, not most. Many. Uh yeah. It's
like, "Oh, wow. You're so so brave for

00:50:21.600 --> 00:50:24.717
cutting off Russians." And then at the
same time, they say, "Oh, but uh all of

00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:28.077
our expansion is in China." And and and I
I'm not going to say anything about

00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:30.877
that. I think that worse than the people
who change their profile pictures are

00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:34.317
going to be the people who remain silent
when Taiwan is invaded and they say they

00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.277
just can't say anything because their
business interests are so intermaged and

00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:41.757
so intertangled and that like that China
has been fighting a strategic and

00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:45.517
economic war against us for a long time
and it is extraordinarily good. The last

00:50:45.600 --> 00:50:48.237
thing I'll say on this, I talked about
it earlier. There's a uniquely American

00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:52.237
delusion probably from our own Hollywood
films that we can solve any problem the

00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:53.837
last second that will come in and we

00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.917
just be boom sex we win. That isn't how

00:50:58.000 --> 00:51:01.757
Taiwan is going to go. There is no DSX
Machina. We know exactly what's going to

00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.037
happen. The war planners have figured
out exactly one of several scenarios

00:51:05.120 --> 00:51:08.157
it's going to go. And when it's
happened, we can't pretend like we

00:51:08.240 --> 00:51:12.157
didn't know. Um and and there isn't going
to be anything that flies in to save.

00:51:12.240 --> 00:51:13.757
>> So, okay. So, >> hold on.
I just want to say one more

00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.117
thing and then I'll let you close.

00:51:15.200 --> 00:51:19.597
>> You and I can debate anti-Hillary ads,
the Donald Trump subreddit, all of those

00:51:19.680 --> 00:51:24.157
things. What we cannot debate is how
important it is that the United States

00:51:24.240 --> 00:51:28.077
win and that democracy wins and that
freedom comes to all of these countries.

00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:32.877
You and I are 100% aligned on that.
Even if we disagree about the anti-Hillary

00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:34.957
ads or any of that stuff. >> Amen.

00:51:35.040 --> 00:51:39.357
>> I appreciate you coming [applause]
and I'll debate you on anything, anytime,

00:51:39.440 --> 00:51:41.837
anywhere. >> I do care
about my family by the way.

00:51:41.920 --> 00:51:43.357
That was the worst thing you said.

00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:48.477
>> Okay. And fair enough. >> I will
apologize for that statement if I

00:51:48.560 --> 00:51:50.157
did say it. Wait, Jake, say the letter.

00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:52.877
Say the letter. >> I just
said if if if I said something

00:51:52.960 --> 00:51:56.717
that hurt your feelings about that and it
was out of line, I apologize. But

00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:58.797
what's more important right now is that

00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:03.917
you're here talking about the work
you're doing and you and I will debate

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.117
till the cows come home this other stuff.
I can't stop you. I can't stop

00:52:07.200 --> 00:52:10.157
your credit. No commentator,
no journalist can stop a founder. I

00:52:10.240 --> 00:52:14.957
disagree with that. Um >> Oh,
I just You can stop a lot of people.

00:52:15.040 --> 00:52:17.517
>> I think we're overestimating
my influence in the world. You're a force

00:52:17.600 --> 00:52:21.997
of nature. The work you do is undeniable.
We can debate politics as

00:52:22.080 --> 00:52:25.757
much as we want. This country needs
to be protected. The people at Google are

00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:28.557
cowards for not doing DoD contracts.

00:52:28.640 --> 00:52:30.317
You're not a coward. You came out here.

00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.917
You, you know, you take me on straight
up as a man. I appreciate it. It was a

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:35.117
little bit of a blind side, but I can

00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:39.597
take it. Um, what's most important is

00:52:39.680 --> 00:52:43.517
the work you're doing.
That's what's most important.

00:52:43.600 --> 00:52:46.717
>> I mean, is a sucker punch,
but I It's okay. I'm from Brooklyn.

00:52:46.800 --> 00:52:49.837
>> Thank you. We appreciate
you coming. We appreciate

00:52:49.920 --> 00:52:55.530
you coming. Bottom line.
[applause] [cheering]

00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:03.880
HUG IT OUT. HUG.

00:53:07.920 --> 00:53:09.940
[cheering]

00:53:10.240 --> 00:53:13.277
Let your [music] winners ride.

00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:15.197
>> Hey everybody, that was pretty crazy.

00:53:15.280 --> 00:53:17.997
What an amazing moment. I think we all
learned a lot, but I actually wanted to

00:53:18.080 --> 00:53:21.837
show you the clip of the comments that
Palmer referenced just to provide some

00:53:21.920 --> 00:53:23.677
context uh for those of you who are

00:53:23.760 --> 00:53:26.237
unaware. The clip was from a show uh in

00:53:26.320 --> 00:53:31.277
March of 2017, episode 721 of my other
podcast, This Week in Startups. And

00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:34.797
listen, I'm super aware that this could
come across as defensive, but I think

00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:36.877
some people might not know what Palmer

00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:38.797
was talking about, so I'll let you

00:53:38.880 --> 00:53:42.317
decide for yourself. We recorded um uh

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:47.437
that episode, episode 721, the day
Palmer Lucky was fired from Facebook and

00:53:47.520 --> 00:53:50.797
u it was a news round table of the
podcast. I'm talking to Austin Peters

00:53:50.880 --> 00:53:54.957
Smith who worked at Inside at the time
and Ian Thompson of the Register. He's a

00:53:55.040 --> 00:54:00.317
great journalist. Uh and just to clarify
some uh facts here and the timeline,

00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:03.277
these are from the Daily Beast article
in which Palmer was interviewed. You can

00:54:03.360 --> 00:54:06.957
go read that. It's in the show notes.
Um and the facts are pretty basic. Palmer

00:54:07.040 --> 00:54:10.557
Lucky donated some amount of money to a
proTrump political organization. It was

00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:14.957
called Nimble America right before
the 2016 election. And as you just heard

00:54:15.040 --> 00:54:16.717
during the All-InSummit talk, Palmer

00:54:16.800 --> 00:54:19.197
said it was like $9,000. Nimble America

00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:24.397
was part of the infamous subreddit page,
The Donald, if you remember that. Nimble

00:54:24.480 --> 00:54:28.237
America. They basically made
anti-Hillary and proTrump memes, and

00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:32.477
they were self-proclaimed posters,
as we uh now talk about on the internet.

00:54:32.560 --> 00:54:36.157
The organization said it was dedicated
to proving quote posting is

00:54:36.240 --> 00:54:41.357
powerful and me magic is real. Uh Palmer
was posting to the Ronald under the

00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:45.437
anonymous Reddit account called Nimble
Richman. Here was one post which Palmer

00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:49.757
confirmed writing that was referenced
in the clip you were about to see. The

00:54:49.840 --> 00:54:52.717
American Revolution was funded
by wealthy individuals. The same has been

00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:56.877
true of many movements for freedom in
history. You can't fight uh the American

00:54:56.960 --> 00:55:00.477
elite without serious firepower. They
will outspend you and destroy you by any

00:55:00.560 --> 00:55:04.557
and all means. And here is what Palmer
told the Daily Beast in 2016 when asked

00:55:04.640 --> 00:55:07.437
about supporting Nimble America.
I've got plenty of money. Money is not my

00:55:07.520 --> 00:55:10.877
issue. I thought it sounded like
a really jolly good time. Again, if you're

00:55:10.960 --> 00:55:13.597
listening, you might hear some other
voices talking. Those are the two guests

00:55:13.680 --> 00:55:17.917
that I mentioned before. You can watch
this 3 minute and 22 second clip, uh,

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:19.997
which is just a mashup of my commentary.

00:55:20.080 --> 00:55:23.357
I'll see you on the other
side of 3 minutes.

00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:26.397
He was supporting

00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.957
like I don't want to say violent

00:55:29.040 --> 00:55:33.997
trolling, but extreme trolling would be
the way to do it. That's right. And his

00:55:34.080 --> 00:55:37.517
comment about it was really insensitive
kind of that it was it was almost maybe

00:55:37.600 --> 00:55:41.757
not super um ideologically
driven as much as it

00:55:41.840 --> 00:55:45.197
was like fun for him. >> What an idiot.

00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.757
>> Well, it actually lost it lost them
a fair amount of business. There were

00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:50.557
about three or four game studios that
said, "Right, we're no longer developing

00:55:50.640 --> 00:55:53.677
for the Oculus on this one." because
he came out and said basically, well, to

00:55:53.760 --> 00:55:56.957
overturn an entrenched elite, then you
need to be able to fund it and and and

00:55:57.040 --> 00:55:58.797
fight back. And you're like, idiot.

00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:03.037
That's not you're you're not
a revolutionary. This is just HIT posting

00:56:03.120 --> 00:56:07.037
about politicians. This is not
constructive dialogue. This is not an

00:56:07.120 --> 00:56:10.637
attempt to get reform the American
political scene. This is just, oh, let's

00:56:10.720 --> 00:56:13.517
be a troll. >> Yeah.
If you want to see like a person's

00:56:13.600 --> 00:56:17.037
true character, give them a pile
of money or a bunch of power [laughter]

00:56:17.120 --> 00:56:20.157
and then you will see >> two bottles
of vodka works very well on that

00:56:20.240 --> 00:56:21.677
>> as well. It's like
the sort of quick way

00:56:21.760 --> 00:56:25.117
of being a billionaire or whatever. But I
mean, can you imagine? I just want to

00:56:25.200 --> 00:56:28.237
stop for a second and just give
everybody in my portfolio or the people

00:56:28.320 --> 00:56:31.037
I work with just a public service

00:56:31.120 --> 00:56:33.197
announcement. If you are lucky enough to

00:56:33.280 --> 00:56:35.997
hit the jackpot and make hundreds of

00:56:36.080 --> 00:56:40.157
millions of dollars, behave yourself,

00:56:40.240 --> 00:56:42.237
you

00:56:42.320 --> 00:56:47.917
You hit the jackpot. It's like
somebody winning the Mega Ball

00:56:48.000 --> 00:56:50.797
lottery. >> Mhm.
and then just going on the street

00:56:50.880 --> 00:56:52.317
and randomly punching people in the

00:56:52.400 --> 00:56:55.517
face. Like this guy Parker Lucky is a

00:56:55.600 --> 00:56:59.677
complete and utter For somebody
to be a visionary to create something

00:56:59.760 --> 00:57:01.917
like Oculus and make VR, I bought the

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:03.437
Oculus. It's pretty impressive. I have

00:57:03.520 --> 00:57:07.197
to say I believe that VR is at least 2

00:57:07.280 --> 00:57:11.677
years away from being a meaningful
business opportunity. But that's about

00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:14.877
the window where I like to invest.
So it's it's kind of on my radar now. In

00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:18.637
fact, we have one company in our
incubator. But Jesus, this kid's an

00:57:18.720 --> 00:57:22.717
idiot. But this case, >> Palmer
Lucky is just an idiot and a

00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.197
troll. So [snorts] dumb. Here's the

00:57:25.280 --> 00:57:30.477
other thing. I think on a leadership
basis, if you represent the company,

00:57:30.560 --> 00:57:33.917
>> so you represent your company first,
Oculus, and your vision of the world,

00:57:34.000 --> 00:57:37.437
behave yourself. Number two, if you

00:57:37.520 --> 00:57:41.357
represent the company that's worth
a couple of hundred billion dollars that

00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:45.197
made you a billionaire and you represent
Mark and Dreason who invested in your

00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.317
company and and Jason Harwitz and you
represent all the employees and all

00:57:48.400 --> 00:57:52.717
their families and everybody who's
entire net worth is locked up in this,

00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:54.797
you have a higher

00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.757
uh duty of service. And this is a

00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.837
complete lack of moral character
and leadership for someone like Paul to be

00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:06.077
doing this posting. F it. I'm going
to say it. Let's move on to the next

00:58:06.160 --> 00:58:09.517
Facebook story. And now that we got
over the Palmer Lucky is just a complete

00:58:09.600 --> 00:58:13.677
who doesn't appreciate his success
or care about any of his employees,

00:58:13.760 --> 00:58:16.957
family members, team members. If you're
going to do that kind of shenanigans, if

00:58:17.040 --> 00:58:22.157
you don't, here's a clue.
I hate to get totally crazy. If

00:58:22.240 --> 00:58:26.077
you're doing something
like this anonymously,

00:58:26.160 --> 00:58:29.917
you might want to think that the anonymity

00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:34.717
plus Reddit plus you would be ashamed
about it. Like think about what you're

00:58:34.800 --> 00:58:38.797
doing if it's anonymous. In other words,
if you have to put a mask on and then

00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:42.557
you throw the brick through the window,
you may not want to throw the brick

00:58:42.640 --> 00:58:46.557
through the window cuz you weren't
willing to do it with your mask off.

00:58:46.640 --> 00:58:49.437
Okay, so closing thoughts. I respect

00:58:49.520 --> 00:58:53.917
Palmer Lucky uh for his incredible
innovations both with Oculus and his new

00:58:54.000 --> 00:58:56.397
company. We actually agree on many

00:58:56.480 --> 00:58:59.117
things uh which actually people in the

00:58:59.200 --> 00:59:03.517
tech industry might not which is hey
producing weapon systems to protect

00:59:03.600 --> 00:59:07.677
America and democracy uh around
the world is a beautiful and important

00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:09.597
thing. I respect Palmer for what he's

00:59:09.680 --> 00:59:11.357
doing there and we have a disagreement

00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:14.877
about uh you know this uh meme action

00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:19.197
that he did but yeah all is well that
ends well. It was an interesting moment

00:59:19.280 --> 00:59:23.117
in time. I don't regret exactly what I
said. I think what I said was fair. Uh,

00:59:23.200 --> 00:59:27.437
and when I talked about it in context,
I was, you know, coming from a place that

00:59:27.520 --> 00:59:30.877
if you're going to post stuff, post it
under your real name, not anonymously.

00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:34.957
And so, there you have it, folks. That's
the entire controversy. Uh, thank you to

00:59:35.040 --> 00:59:38.797
Palmer Lucky for coming. Thanks to my
besties for having my back. Uh, there

00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:41.757
was this big question of if I would
go out and engage the discussion. Of

00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:44.317
course, I want to go out and engage the
discussion. I want to talk. I don't mind

00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:48.157
a hard discussion. And in fact, that's
what this podcast is about. Having hard

00:59:48.240 --> 00:59:51.277
discussions and then keeping
our friendships and keeping it moving

00:59:51.360 --> 00:59:55.277
forward. I look forward to hosting this
podcast forever. They're going to have

00:59:55.360 --> 00:59:59.997
to take drag me out of here and I hope
we can uh host another all-in summit and

01:00:00.080 --> 01:00:02.077
all of you can attend either uh

01:00:02.160 --> 01:00:07.277
virtually or in person. It's great
to uh have had Farmer at the event and

01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:09.997
actually I hope he comes next year
and and shares more of the exciting work

01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:12.077
he's doing at Androl and I wish him the

01:00:12.160 --> 01:00:17.880
best. [music] We'll let your winners ride.

01:00:18.260 --> 01:00:20.280
[music]

01:00:21.680 --> 01:00:27.640
>> We open sourced it to the fans and
they've [music] just gone crazy with it.

01:00:28.740 --> 01:00:30.760
[music]

01:00:33.980 --> 01:00:34.020
[music]

01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:36.877
>> Besties are

01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:41.400
my dog taking a driveway.

01:00:41.680 --> 01:00:44.317
Oh man, my habitasher
[music] will meet the endless.

01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:47.277
>> We should all just get a room and just
have like one big huge orgy cuz they're

01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:53.880
all just like this like sexual tension
that we just need to release somehow.

01:00:57.760 --> 01:01:03.400
>> We need to get merch.
>> I'm going all [music] in.

01:01:07.200 --> 01:01:10.720
I'm going all in. [music]

01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:15.117
Okay. Wait. Jal, stay out here. Hey,

01:01:15.200 --> 01:01:18.797
Nick. Nick, can you cue
the uh can you cue the photo?

01:01:18.880 --> 01:01:25.800
>> What photo? Oh, no. >> Backstage.
This is what happened at the last break.

01:01:27.440 --> 01:01:30.477
>> I think we got there.
>> Well, this is what I said. I said,

01:01:30.560 --> 01:01:34.557
"You're you don't have drones over
my house, right? Just to confirm."

01:01:34.640 --> 01:01:37.757
>> And he said, "Uh, cannot >>
someone tagline that." said cannot

01:01:37.840 --> 01:01:40.640
confirm or deny.