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Hey everybody. Hey everybody. We have an

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exciting show for you today. This is the

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15th and the final episode from the

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All-InSummit 2022.

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I wanted to take a quick moment to thank

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my team. They worked tirelessly over
a 100red days to make the event magical

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for everybody who was able to make it.

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Thanks to the audience for coming. Next
year we'll try to have twice as many of

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you there. Just a quick thank you to

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Amber, Ashley, Jackie, Nick, Fresh,

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Marine, Molly, Big Mike, Andre, Times 2,

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Rachel Reporting, Producer Justin,

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Jamie, Jimmy D, my brother Josh,

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everybody who came and supported the
event. We had an incredible crew. We had

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an incredible time. And of course,
I would be remiss if I didn't thank the

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amazing speakers who joined us from
all around the world. So candid, so

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insightful. My pal Bill Gurley, Bry

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Gersonner, Adena, Mara, Tandis, Tim,

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Elon, Antonio, Nate, Ryan, Claire, uh my

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boy Ra Boy, Antonio Garcia, Martinez,

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Joel, James, Mata, Glenn Greenwald, and

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of course, today's guest, the one and

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the only, Mr. Palmer Lucky. And most of

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all, I'd like to thank my besties,

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Chimat Saxs and Freeberg, who did an

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amazing job of hosting the event. Now, a

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little preamble here before we start

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this episode. Many of you have heard uh

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that this is a controversial episode.
It is a little controversial. There may be

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a little twist in it. So, I will be
coming back after Palmer Ly's talk to

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give you a little context because it
might get a little confusing. I don't

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want to spoil the surprise for you.
So, enjoy this episode.

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But before we go to this episode,
a lot of you have questions. You have

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questions about the future of the All-In
podcast. And those questions are

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important and um they're never going to

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be answered. They're never going to be
answered. But just so you know, I'm not

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leaving.

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I'm not leaving.

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I'm not leaving. [cheering]

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The show goes on. This is my home.

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They're going to need a wrecking ball
to take me out of here. They're going to

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need to send in the National Guard cuz
I ain't going nowhere. The show goes on.

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[music]

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>> We'll let your winners ride.

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>> Rainman, [music]

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>> we open source it to the fans and
[music] they've just gone crazy with it.

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Love you. [music]

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>> So, my name is Palmer Lucky. I founded
two companies. My first was a company

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called Oculus VR that I founded when I
was 19 years old and living in a camper

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trailer. Thank you. Thank you.

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um sold that to for a few billion

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dollars to Facebook and then got fired
a few years later and then started Android

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because I wanted to work in the national
security space for a variety of reasons

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and I'll get into some of those reasons
today. So the technology industry for

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many years has prided itself on being
the first to understand where things are

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heading so that they can build the things
that are going to be relevant for

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the future. on national security
though and on the rise of our strategic

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adversaries. It was one of the last
industries to realize where things were

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going due to a variety of ideological
reasons but also business reasons.

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Silicon Valley didn't just predict
the importance of defense in the 2020s. It

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largely took the exact wrong position,
the opposite position. Uh first of all,

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you have the obvious examples like big
technology companies explicitly refusing

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to do work with the Department of Defense.
Google is one big example, but

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the worst examples are really in the
startups that don't exist because people

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didn't want to even get into such a

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controversial space less it ruined their

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careers. Um, you know, when I started

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Anderoll, I had already sold a company

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for billions of dollars and investors

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still didn't want to invest. I still had
a tough time in a lot of meetings with

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venture capitalists and none of the
conversations with VCs that I had were

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about my ability to hire or execute or
build products. Everyone believed that I

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could do those things, even the ones who
didn't like me much. The vast majority

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of conversations that we had were about
whether or not it was even ethically

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okay to ever build a company that would
build weapons. And the people who turned

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us down, the ones who decided not
to invest in Anderole, actually believed

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that we had a good team and good people
and good product market fit. The issue

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is that they thought that it was
inherently wrong to build tools capable

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of being used for violence because
they believed that the idea of deterring

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violence through having a strong arsenal

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was fundamentally obsolete and itself
wrong. Uh even you know imagine how hard

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it would have been to raise money if
I hadn't founded Oculus would have been

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impossible. Even after we raised
money and got traction the negativity

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continued there there was a really
interesting uh cover story in Bloomberg

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in 2019 that called us tech's most

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controversial startup. This was a year
where Tik Tok was banning users for

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calling attention to the weaker genocide
in in China and banning users for

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posting homosexual content. This is a
year in which Adam Newman paid himself

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tens of millions of dollars for the
right to use the word we. It's a year

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that Uber was under a federal
investigation for its workplace culture

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immediately after a board coup that
ejected much of the leadership. It's a

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time where Facebook was getting hauled
in front of Congress to testify. But of

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course, as a tiny defense company
making a handful of purely defensive base

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security systems that committed
the crime of building technology for the

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military, Andrew was the one that
claimed the bel belt for the world's

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most controversial technology company.

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I'd say that the war in Europe has
totally shattered the idea that we live

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at the end of history. Every few
decades, we start to believe that

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economic ties have ended all prospect
of war. And every few decades, we're

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reminded that this isn't true. That's
is a very popular idea, especially in DC,

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that we live at what they call the end
of history. It's this idea that economic

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ties and interconnections make
the prospect of conflict fundamentally

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unthinkable, ignoring the fact that many
people see this as a matter of destiny,

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not economics. In 1909, English
economist and politician Norman Angel

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published an entire book called
The Great Illusion. And it was entirely

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about how war in Europe was impossible
and that spending money on building

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militaries that could deter conflict
was a waste of time that could be better

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spent building utopia. The he
specifically argued that any European

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country annexing another would be
as absurd as London annexing Herford. And

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the book was actually the number one
bestseller in 1909. Now, we've had some

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version of this argument for a few
decades now, ever since the Cold War

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started. And luckily, a lot of people
are waking up. But unfortunately, it's

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not because they've come to a reasoned

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decision based on the fundamental

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principles at play. It's because right
now supporting the military, supporting

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defense, and supporting Ukraine in

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particular has become the current thing.

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And in current year, current thing
is the thing that you have to support

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regardless of what you think of the
underpinnings. Unfortunately, for issues

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like defense and national security,
the stakes are too high and the relevant

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timelines far too long for people
to start caring about things at the moment

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that they need to start caring about them.
So today, I want to talk a little

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bit about why I started Andreal and why

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you should all think exactly
the same way that I do.

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So why I founded Androl, I thought that I
would work on virtual reality for my

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entire life. I had no plans on leaving

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Oculus at all. And I I love virtual
reality. I loved virtual reality. I

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started Oculus as a teenager and I would
have been there for another 50 years. I

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said as much less than 30 days before I
was fired. Uh and there there's a a lot

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of reasons for that, some of which I'll
get into later. Uh but the decision was

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made for me. I gave $9,000 against
the wrong political candidate and it was

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pretty unpopular in Silicon Valley.

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Before I worked on Oculus, I actually
worked in an Army affiliate research

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center on a program called Bravemind,
which was an Army project to treat

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veterans with post-traumatic stress
disorder using virtual reality exposure

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therapy. Basically putting them into
virtual reality environments that would

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set off their symptoms and then under
the guidance of a licensed therapist

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who's also in the simulation, they
could be taught coping skills that would

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reduce their dependency on medication
and medical aid. Uh it was a really

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fantastic program. I wasn't doing
anything important on it. I was just a

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lab technician, a cable monkey.
But I got a lot of exposure to both the

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virtual reality uh technology side, but
also how broken defense procurement was,

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how slow it was, how old a lot of the
technology was, how the incentives were

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totally misaligned. And ever since then,
I'd always wanted to make a contribution

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to national security if I could. Just
took a few years for the right for the

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right set of circumstances to come up.

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The defense industry in America is
fundamentally broken. uh you know before

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even getting into the specific problems
of our defense industry, the United

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States has the strongest commercial
artificial intelligence industry in the

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world followed closely by China.
But at the same time, the United States

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military and the prime contractors that
dominate the military-industrial complex

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have none of the right tools, talent,
or incentives to apply autonomy to the

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systems they do. There's no reason
to save cost because they don't get paid

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for making things that work. They get
paid for doing work. And in a world

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where you get more prestige and more
money by having more people working on

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bigger things, there's no reason to use
autonomy to reduce costs and increase

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capability. The US military is well
behind the Chinese people liber people's

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liberation army in the implementation of
artificial intelligence. Um there's more

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better AI in John Deere tractors than
there is in any US military vehicle.

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There's better computer vision
in the Snapchat app on your phone than any

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system that the US Department of Defense
has deployed. And other countries are

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taking notice of this. Countries like
Russia and China do not want to compete

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with us toe-to-toe with the tools that
we have. People will make fun of China

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and say, "Oh, they have a they don't
have a blue water navy. They only have

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one aircraft carrier coming up onto
uh you they could never fight us." The

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reality is that that's not where they're
going to fight us. They're going to arm

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proxies or if they engage directly,
they're going to use technologies that

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give them an asymmetrical advantage
in the areas where we are the least

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competent. These are the areas
where they are putting a lot of their

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resources. The reason that Vladimir
Putin is saying that the ruler of the

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world is going to be the country that
masters artificial intelligence is not

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because he thinks that they are going
to lose at this. It's because he thinks

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that that is one of the only ways that
they're going to be able to get the best

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of us. Now, the people
who are building technology

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for our military, the large defense
primes, I won't name any names because

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I'm I'm not I I I don't want to I don't
want to wrestle too many feathers in

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that area. You never know who's in the
room. But the people who are building

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the technology for the United States
military, the people who spend all their

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time do not have access to the best
talent. They do not have access to the

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people that the technology industry has
largely had a monopoly on in areas like

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autonomy, artificial intelligence,

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sensor fusion, high-end networking.
And then at the same time, the people who

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can build who can build good software,
the ones who do work in these technology

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companies are largely prohibited from
doing so. And even if they're working on

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something that the military buys,
let's say all the people at Apple who are

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working on an iPhone that can be sold
to the US Air Force, that same iPhone is

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also being sold to Russian intelligence,
that same iPhone is being sold to the

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Chinese Navy. Uh working on technologies
that help the United States don't give

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us a strategic or competitive advantage
if everyone else is getting the exact

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same thing. Uh the other problem
to consider is that asymetric technologies

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like artificial intelligence are almost
certainly going to empower nations that

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we aren't thinking about today. Some
of them are a little more obvious like

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Iran. It was a close US ally until
the late 1970s and today obviously is in a

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very different position. There's about
a dozen countries in Africa, South

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America, and Asia that were they
to acquire extremely advanced artificial

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intelligence either through coincidence
or by proxy arming would almost

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certainly start to wage war on their
neighbors in a very destabilizing way.

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It would have been a much sher bet
for me to found a second unicorn in a

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different industry that wasn't so
fundamentally broken. Uh gaming, fast

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casual dining, fintech, I could have
made some ape coins. But there have

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actually been more mattress unicorns

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than defense unicorns in the last 35
years. Uh but I decided the best thing

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that I could do to try and solve this
problem was to use the fact that I had a

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bunch of money and I had a bunch
of credibility to do something that was

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hugely unpopular. to ignore the fact

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that people were belittling me for it
and try to convince a bunch of brilliant

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people to come along with me so that they
wouldn't waste their lives spending

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augmented reality mustache emojis and
instead they could do some work for our

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armed forces.

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But it's worth looking at the past and
realizing that this is a recent problem.

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It's not something that has been
the case for a very long time. Um Silicon

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Valley was largely built on the back
of defense in 1947. Half of Stanford's

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engineering budget came from the
Department of Defense. Fred Turman,

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Stanford Dean, brought DoD contracts and
interest to the West Coast in a way that

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had fundamentally been limited almost

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entirely to the East Coast. And Silicon

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Valley helped power a lot of the things

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that are powering the modern military

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machine. In the 1950s alone, we built

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the Pentagon in well, sorry, I I I I I I

221
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have an error in my notes. This is

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00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,997
wrong. um in the leadup to the 50s and

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the early 50s. We built the Pentagon
in 16 months. We completed the Manhattan

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project in three years. We put a man
on the moon in under a decade. And just

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between 1951 and 1959, we built five
generations of fighter jets, three

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generations of bombers, two classes of
carriers, nuclearpowered submarines, and

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ballistic missiles to go on top of them.

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If you look at the current state of the
industry, we're lucky to do even one of

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these things in a decade.

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And I can't really blame the the defense
industry for not working with the DoD

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entirely. It's not just an ideological
problem. It's also an economic problem.

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When the Cold War ended, the government
really became a pretty terrible

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customer. The technology industry
drifted away. Most engineers in Silicon

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Valley do not remember a great power
conflict because they haven't lived in a

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world where a great power was a
existential threat to the United States.

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And so you have a lot of people who are
ideologically opposed to working with

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the military. Now, we could spend
an entire talk. I only have a few minutes

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to talk today. We can talk spend a whole
talk talking about the ethics of defense

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and you know what what the reasonable
critiques of the military are and how

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you can change what you build for them
in a good way. But I I'll I'll throw out

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a factor that I think most people don't
think about enough. Even the people who

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do agree on working with the military.

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Um, there's a lot of companies in

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Silicon Valley and and and elsewhere
who look at those employees who are

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ideologically opposed to working
with the military and they use them as a

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smoke screen pretending that it's
principled opposition that drives their

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decision when in reality they want
access to Chinese markets. They want

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access to Chinese investment. They want
access to other countries that are tied

249
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into these things. And so they're
able to use these people who are

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ideologically opposed to working with
the military, which actually make up a

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pretty small fraction of the US
population, as a smoke screen for their

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real intention, which is to preserve
access to those markets, preserve access

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to those capital. Um, our largest
companies are not making these decisions

254
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based on what is best for the United
States. Certainly not what is best for

255
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the United States in the long term.

256
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They're largely making the decisions
based on short-term ideas that are not

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based in any kind of long-term thinking.

258
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If you look at the recent chips bill
that Congress passed saying that they're

259
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that the United States government
is going to put uh 50 billion 52 billion

260
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dollars into building semiconductors
in the United States. You have to compare

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that with the recent news that well
it leaked. It wasn't wasn't news on

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purpose. Uh but Apple has pledged to put

263
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$275 billion as one company into Chinese

264
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manufacturing. You have one company
putting in more than five times as much

265
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money into manufacturing advanced
technology as what is supposed to be a

266
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landmark piece of US legislation.
The situation that we're in is is pretty

267
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weird. Uh

268
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this is going to sound hyperbolic,
but bear with me. The situation we were we

269
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are in right now would be like if
in the buildup to World War II, General

270
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Electric had said, "You know what? We
really like the United States, but we're

271
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actually very bullish on Imperial Japan.

272
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We think it's going to be a huge growth
opportunity for us and our metrics just

273
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aren't going to look the same if we
wipe those off of our roadmap. Imagine

274
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[snorts] if in the buildup to the Cold
War if you had had Westinghouse and

275
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other major US technology companies say,
"Ah, you know, we love manufacturing in

276
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the United States, but we actually
think communist manufacturing is a really

277
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,757
interesting experiment that we need to see
through and you know, we're not sure

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that we really want to take a side
on this." Uh, the situation that we are in

279
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,917
today is as dire or worse. The only
reason that it seems ridiculous and the

280
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only reason it seems hyperbolic is because
conflict has not actually broken

281
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out yet. If a conflict does break out,
we're going to look at the current

282
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situation where we are hugely
strategically and economically dependent

283
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at the highest levels of our technology
industry and government on an adversary

284
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that is literally committing genocide,
enslaving millions of people. Uh we are

285
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going to look back on ourselves
and feel really stupid.

286
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Now the good news is that because of
Russia's invasion of Ukraine, defense is

287
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,517
now the current thing. Uh in the United

288
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States,

289
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,477
there is this idea that any problem can

290
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,517
be fixed at the last second with just
a really incredible twist if we just come

291
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,037
up with the right thing. But there's
a lot of problems out there that cannot be

292
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,117
solved that way. national security,
economic policy, environmental policy.

293
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These are things that require
non-political bipartisan agreement on

294
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,437
the problem decades before it becomes a

295
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,677
really big problem. Those are not things
that are acceptable current things. Uh

296
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,077
shape rotation, this is an acceptable

297
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:16,717
current thing to debate. Uh whether or

298
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,637
not Will Smith was wrong to uh to to

299
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,397
wrong to take the slap or if he's just,
you know, a representative of warrior

300
00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,597
culture, you know, that's that's
a that's a fair debate to have. The idea

301
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,277
of the United States having a military
that is strong enough to deter conflict

302
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:34,477
should not be in that category. Um, so

303
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,477
why is it too why is it too late to care
about defense now at this exact moment

304
00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,197
in time? Why is it too late
for everybody to suddenly change their

305
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,957
minds? Uh, well, a few things. One, you
go to war with the tools that you have,

306
00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,997
not the tools that you wish you had or
the tools that you start working on when

307
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,477
things become a problem. If you look
at the weapons that were given to Ukraine,

308
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they were built in the 80s, '90s,
and 2000s, $40 billion plus worth of them.

309
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And for all their differences,
defense is one of the few things that

310
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,877
Republicans and Democrats alike have
realized transcends the partisan divide.

311
00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,837
On one level, it's obviously very bad
that we don't have more modern weapons

312
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,437
to give to Ukraine. But on the other,
it shows a level of foresight in planning

313
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that we've been stockpiling and building
these legacy weapon systems for decades

314
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,317
explicitly for a situation like today,
which has been war gamed out to the nth

315
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,037
degree. Imagine if the Department
of Defense had done nothing to prepare for

316
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,757
war for 40 years. And then as soon
as war broke out, they started tweeting a

317
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,517
lot and changed their profile pictures
to Ukraine flag and then started saying,

318
00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,677
you know, we we stand with Ukraine.
Uh the people who are actually tasked with

319
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,437
solving these problems are uh they
generally have good planning, but

320
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there's only so much they can do
without good technology. Um so I want to

321
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:41,997
reiterate, if you only start building now,
you've lost the chance to deter war

322
00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,637
from happening. That's the real purpose
of the defense industry. It's not to

323
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,917
fight wars. It's not to win wars.
It's to prevent wars from happening. Wars

324
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,917
happen when one or both sides
misestimate their probability of

325
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,597
winning. If both sides agree that one
side or the other is going to win,

326
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typically you end up with diplomatic
resolution. It's when both sides

327
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disagree about the possibility of

328
00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:06,077
winning that conflict actually actually
breaks out. And so if you actually want

329
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to prevent conflict from happening
in the first place, you have to get

330
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involved well ahead of time. If you
get involved after conflict breaking out

331
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breaks out like so many companies have,
you're ensuring that you're only going

332
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to be a part of the killing. you're
only going to be a part of the bloodshed.

333
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,117
You're only going to be a part of the war.
You're not going to be a part of

334
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,717
preventing the war from
happening in the first place.

335
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So, I would argue that people in the
technology industry need to work on

336
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:34,717
defense, not because it's the current
thing, but because it's the right thing.

337
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,320
I have one more thing that I want to say.

338
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,237
Thank you. [applause]

339
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,797
I talked earlier about NPC thinking that
prioritizes popularity over principles.

340
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:56,680
What I'm about to do is in very, very
bad taste, but I'm going to do it anyway.

341
00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,280
Yeah, we'll see.

342
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,517
one of the people who I think
embodies this type of NPC

343
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,077
thinking of going with what's popular

344
00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,037
and not being willing to to to ever

345
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,437
reverse their position even when they're
proven wrong is Jason Calakanas. Let me

346
00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,717
read about some of the things he said
about me over the years. Just a just a

347
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,517
small sampling.

348
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,677
Palmer lucky hideous.

349
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,837
What an idiot.

350
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,797
A This guy, Parker Lucky, Parker

351
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,517
Lucky, a complete and utter

352
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,717
Jesus, this kid is an idiot. Palmer

353
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,277
Lucky is just an idiot and a troll. He

354
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:45,037
is dumb. So, so, so dumb.

355
00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:48,637
Oh, no. We got to keep going. For him
to pull the plug on the Palmer Lucky

356
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,077
experience was brilliant.
Kudos, Zuckerberg.

357
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,557
A complete lack of moral character and

358
00:20:54,640 --> 00:21:00,077
leadership. Palmer lucky a complete

359
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,557
Palmer doesn't care about any of his
employees, family members, or team

360
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,957
members. Now, this doesn't include any
of the lies that he's told about me. This

361
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,757
doesn't include any of the lies he's
told about my businesses. This doesn't

362
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,717
include any of the terrible things that
his co-hosts and guests had said about

363
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,277
me over the years that went unchallenged
and egged on. If I'm a hideous, stupid

364
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:23,437
person with no morals who doesn't
care about my family or my employees, I

365
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,597
shouldn't be invited here, no matter
how relevant Ukraine is. He's had many

366
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,957
chances to retract or apologize these
statements. And rather than taking any

367
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,317
of them, he keeps telling people
that the reason I won't be on his show is

368
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,877
because I'm too thin skinned because I
disagree with him on some of the things

369
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,957
he said about Oculus. This is not the
case. I've explicitly told him why I've

370
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,477
refused to be on his show. It's because
he and his crew of bullies have been

371
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,797
vicious liars who have attacked me for

372
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,597
years and bered me for years and spread
lies about me for re years years in a

373
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,677
way that I've been able to overcome
that very few entrepreneurs would have the

374
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,757
money or the resources or the
credibility to do. And being nice to a

375
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,357
few people like I'm sure he's being nice
to you does not excuse this. This isn't

376
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,797
debatable whether it happened or not.
It clearly happened. It's these are all

377
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,757
direct quotes from things that he said
over the years, both while I was at

378
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,637
Oculus and during my time after Oculus.

379
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,237
And Jason, like many influential people,
some of them even in this room, who have

380
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,397
treated me like for years, suddenly
changed their tune as soon as Andreal

381
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,397
was on the upswing, as soon as we were
doing good things. They started inviting

382
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,757
me on their podcasts, liking all
my social media posts, putting me on their

383
00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,677
innovator lists, all without any
acknowledgement whatsoever that they

384
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,037
were the ones that were attacking me
when it was popular, kicking me while I

385
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,797
was on the ground, and treating me like
garbage. It's really pathetic because a

386
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,757
lot of my remaining critics at least
are basing their opinions on some kind of

387
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,517
consistent worldview. A lot of other
people are attacking me and the work

388
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,357
that I do because it's popular. When
it's popular to attack me, they attack

389
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,277
me. when it's unpopular to attack me,
when Ukraine is being attacked, they are

390
00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:58,877
suddenly friends. And those are the same
people that I know are going to go back

391
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,357
to on me the second that it becomes
popular again. Um, I'm coming to

392
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,797
the end of this. And I know that you
guys are probably thinking, "Wow, this

393
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,157
guy's pretty thin skinned for a

394
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:14,120
billionaire." That's fair. That's fair.

395
00:23:15,820 --> 00:23:17,840
[cheering]

396
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,037
But I want to remind you of something.

397
00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,557
Jason and the people like him are
the reason I was fired from my OC from

398
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,037
Oculus, my own company. The company,
it was my heart and my soul for my entire

399
00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:35,437
teenage and adult life. For him, it was

400
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,757
a game. It was his show. And for me, it

401
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,797
was everything. And I lost everything.

402
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:46,527
It almost destroyed me. I'm still filled
with rage about it. I always will be.

403
00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:48,797
>> [snorts] >> I'll end with this.
I was able to create

404
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,237
Andreal because a small group of people
were willing to give me a second chance

405
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,917
to let me build something great
in an important but controversial industry

406
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,037
that was being constantly bered
by people who thought we lived at the end

407
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:03,437
of history. They invested in me while
Jason was trying to poison my career and

408
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,837
keep me on the ground. Thank God he

409
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:11,117
failed. Thank God for investors who
ignore him and people like him. The

410
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,437
market conditions suggest there are
going to be a lot of founders, hopefully

411
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,717
none of the people in this room, losing
their startups over the next year or so.

412
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,637
And I pray that they get a second chance
like I did. I pray they aren't deterred

413
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:25,037
from working on important but unpopular
problems. I pray that they will

414
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:26,637
successfully claw their way back to

415
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,437
success. That they aren't deterred from

416
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,837
working on things that really matter.

417
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,077
I pray that they manage to do this

418
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,397
despite the inevitably stupid and hot

419
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:41,037
takes. sorry, inevitably stupid and

420
00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,437
spiteful hot takes that Jason,
his associates, and the many

421
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,597
people like him who make money spewing

422
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,640
are certainly going to be putting
out there. Amen. Thank you.

423
00:25:10,450 --> 00:25:12,470
>> [cheering]

424
00:25:15,030 --> 00:25:19,800
[applause] >> Uh,

425
00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,557
>> nice talk.

426
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,280
>> Well, great to meet you in person.

427
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,957
>> Um, Jason, what lessons have
we LEARNED HERE TODAY? [laughter]

428
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,637
WELL, I mean, I guess we were talking
backstage and Jason's like, "Oh, you

429
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,357
know, I had to do so much to get this
guy here because I think he hates me."

430
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,357
And this was before this happened.

431
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,277
And I was like, "Well, maybe
you shouldn't talk about people."

432
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,477
>> Well, the the good thing is I was able
to make it to this stage to say this.

433
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,357
Most of the people that you've gone
after this way will never have that

434
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,117
opportunity because they won't start
a second unicorn. I'm only here because I

435
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,157
managed to claw my way back. And remember,
this is personal because it's

436
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,837
not just you. It's you. You're one of
the most influential certainly, but it's

437
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,717
you and really a small cadre of people
that by attacking me ceaselessly made it

438
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,277
impossible for me to continue my tenure
at Oculus. I'm really lucky I clawed my

439
00:26:11,360 --> 00:26:17,177
way back cuz that's exceedingly rare
for a company to do a person to do that.

440
00:26:17,260 --> 00:26:20,717
>> [applause] >> What?

441
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,237
I was hoping to talk about your new
thing, but I guess since we have no

442
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,637
choice but go here. Well,
what happened at Facebook

443
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,877
and maybe you just explain that and what

444
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,077
I I got wrong about what happened.

445
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,437
>> Well, it's not just what's wrong.
This is actually why I I I went out of my

446
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,357
way. There's actually a lot of lies you
told and spread and your co-hosts and

447
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,317
your guests. Uh but I'm not even talking
about those. The things that I listed,

448
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,077
you'll notice these aren't material
accusations. These are just personal

449
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,597
attacks you've made on my character.

450
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,037
These are just things you've said
about me personally as a founder and

451
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,677
entrepreneur. Vicious personal attacks.

452
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,837
Separately, there's all of the lies
you've said about how Oculus didn't have

453
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:03,277
any differentiated technology. It was
totally commoditized. Anybody could have

454
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:07,277
done it. It really was just the right
thing at the right time. Like, we could

455
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:10,477
spend all day talking about why these
aren't true. But the real reason that it

456
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,677
became untenable for me and the real
reason that I'm not in the VR industry

457
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,917
is because people like you were enabling
those lies and then being vicious about

458
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,357
it and attacking me personally.
It became clear I couldn't be a

459
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,957
representative in an industry where people
are going to treat me like fairly or not.

460
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:26,317
>> Imagine doing a podcast with them.

461
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,240
>> What's that?
>> Imagine doing a podcast with

462
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:36,557
>> I guess if you have no choice
but to keep I'll just ask you the same

463
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,117
question. Do you want Do you want us
to just describe what Palmer's talking

464
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,397
about? Can I Can I try my best?

465
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,597
>> No, no, no. Hold on. What What What Cuz

466
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:45,997
my memory of of the events. Uh,

467
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,877
>> you just read all the things you said,
>> right? But what is the What were we

468
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,477
talking about at the time? >> Well,
there was a lot of controversy at

469
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,757
Facebook about some donations,
anonymous accounts, things you said.

470
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,277
>> Well, so those that wasn't one thing.

471
00:27:59,360 --> 00:28:02,797
That was over the course of years. So,
that was just a small sampling. Um, I I

472
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,517
had to really find a small sample.
you know, you can't you can't ever do

473
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,637
anything, but I'll tell you what happened.

474
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,997
>> You got fired from Facebook. What
was the controversy there because that's

475
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:11,837
what I was commenting on in this.

476
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,877
>> Well, no, some of those were after I
was fired and you were saying it was great

477
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,637
that I was fired. Um, and actually,
by the way, it's like one of your one of

478
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,757
your co-hosts said on your show
that they're glad I got fired from my

479
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,037
politics and that line is mysteriously
missing from your transcripts, by the

480
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:27,837
way. Um, and there's >> we never
have edit we don't edit any of

481
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,157
the things and I didn't have a co-host
at the time. It was probably just one of

482
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,197
the news reporters who came on. we would
have interview them. But there was a lot

483
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,517
of controversy wrong there. Here's what
happened. I gave $9,000 to a group that

484
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,637
ran a single anti-H Hillary Clinton
billboard. That was actually the extent

485
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,597
of it. And then a huge number of people
in the tech influencer space, the social

486
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,037
media talking heads and media.
They started saying Palmer Lucky is this

487
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,317
terrible person who's funding all >>
Sorry, just to be clear. So you made a

488
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,837
donation and it was on an FC filing
somewhere. Somebody pulled it out and

489
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,637
then basically said >> like
to a pack or something? It was so

490
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,277
it was to a it was to a 501c4 I believe
who used that for their political harm.

491
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,877
Um so but it it was it was public.
This was it wasn't public filing. Yeah.

492
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,917
>> Yeah. And so and I and I actually ended
up giving a quote to a reporter about

493
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,437
it. Uh so you know it wasn't it wasn't
uh it it wasn't something that people

494
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,357
understood what it was but then a bunch
of people just lied. They said Palmer

495
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,517
Lucky was funding uh people who are
attacking Hillary Clinton supporters

496
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,717
online. Uh there were a lot of people
who I think were looking for a scapegoat

497
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:29,517
to kind of be the right-wing uh
the right-wing reaction to correct the

498
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,797
record, which actually
was paying people to attack.

499
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,317
>> Why did Zuck fire you? >> What's that?

500
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,317
>> Why did Zuck fire you? >> Oh,
no. Zuck didn't fire me. He's way

501
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,717
>> face Why did I'll just ask the third

502
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,437
time. Why did Facebook fire you?

503
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,717
>> There's a lot of reasons.

504
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,637
>> I always had good performance reviews.

505
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,397
Uh, but what it what but

506
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,837
what >> here here's what
it what what it really

507
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,397
boiled down to was this.
>> This is my favorite talk by far.

508
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,237
>> What it really boils down to is this.

509
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,237
Uh, it was clear that there were a lot
of people in the media and in the tech

510
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,837
industry who were going to continue
attacking me. We hoped it would blow

511
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,957
over, but they kept attacking me for
months and months and months and months.

512
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,597
I was put on leave for 6 months.
I don't know if you know that.

513
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,557
>> Right. is all on the heels
of this one political donation.

514
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,557
>> Correct. >> $9,000. >> Yes.
And so on the heels that the hope

515
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,277
was that it would go away. Now, I think
here's here's the real problem. I think

516
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:29,037
if Trump had lost, people could have said,
"Oh, well, you know, he's just one

517
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,597
of those eccentrics impact. No impact.

518
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,437
>> He's a loser. Loser,
but whatever." Uh Trump winning

519
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,517
is I think what made it unable because

520
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,797
people continued to attack me not for

521
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,957
>> the $9,000 donation was the reason you
were fired just for just for supporting

522
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,997
Trump. >> As you know these things are
very complex but more or less yes. I mean

523
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,997
there's a there's a direct causal line
from that to me being put on leave to me

524
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:55,677
not being allowed to come back and then

525
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,437
pushed out. We talk a lot about this on

526
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,517
the pod on um mob behavior and and I

527
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,677
think uh Mark Andre said the smartest
thing I've read on Twitter in the year.

528
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:09,917
I retweeted it and I took it away and I
think he pointed out that it's it feels

529
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,477
safer to be in the mob
than to not be in the mob.

530
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:14,797
>> Well, it always cuz when you're in the

531
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:19,597
mob, you're part of the group, but you
also get to attack and it's safe to

532
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,637
attack when you're in the group, >> right?
And I think by the way what you

533
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,797
did there, one of the things I I I will
highlight irregardless of the content

534
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,117
and the thing that was very brave and we

535
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,157
don't see a lot of bravery nowadays.
And uh um [applause]

536
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,517
and I I I don't mean that honestly I
don't mean that to disparage Jason, but

537
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,117
like that sort of behavior where you
stand up and you say something that will

538
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,437
be highly controversial and go against
the mob and against the tide and maybe

539
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:48,317
piss off an entire room is something
that we don't see a lot of. And I think

540
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,597
that that level of bravery is also
what's missing going back to the mid-

541
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:55,437
20th century which allowed us to do all
the things you highlighted as a country

542
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,877
last century that we're not doing anymore.
I appreciate your bravery more

543
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,520
than anything. >> Thank you.
>> Yeah. [cheering]

544
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,917
But but look, I I don't know about
the specifics with with JCAL, but it

545
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,477
certainly seems that there's a lot
of this. We talk about this like with with

546
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,557
Brian Armstrong standing up at Coinbase
and all the stuff that's gone on that we

547
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,317
think I I I would argue probably made
Twitter a highly complacent place is

548
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,397
everyone wants to be, you know,
you don't want to stand up and you don't

549
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,597
want to make that change and you don't
want to be brave and you want to be part

550
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:28,157
of the mob of the of the
crowd attacking the right.

551
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:33,357
>> Well, people see what happens. I
mean the the what happened to me has like

552
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,637
this is this is I can't I can't back
this up obviously this is getting into

553
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,637
personal anecdote which is never a good
way to support any idea but you know I

554
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:45,197
know a lot of people who remain
at Facebook and they will not say anything

555
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,157
and they will not donate to any
politician >> yeah it's crazy

556
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,037
>> who's left of Bernie because they
saw what happened to me and they've

557
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:54,637
explicitly said I saw what happened
to you because remember it wasn't just the

558
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,277
public it was the internal reaction
where people were saying oh my god uh

559
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,237
like I will not work for a Trump
supporter. This is terrible. I mean

560
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,517
actually one great example,
Andrew Bosworth,

561
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,357
he ran ads at Facebook for 14 years.
He was put in after my departure as the

562
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,437
head of Oculus and he was the guy who
was putting things on social media like

563
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,917
I think the exact wording was if you
support Donald Trump because you don't

564
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,877
like Hillary Clinton,
you are a shitty human being.

565
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,477
>> And he's the person who's allowed
to lead Oculus now. So it's it's not a

566
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:29,117
problem of being aggressive. It's being
on the right side of the politics. And

567
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,437
so there's a lot of people where they're
just they're not going to say anything

568
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,037
because they see what happens to me.

569
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,477
Now, if Zach is loving this, [laughter]
>> and I tell when I hear somebody to

570
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:39,957
disagree with, I'll let you guys know.

571
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,030
[laughter] [applause]

572
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,877
But the the the real the real the real
irony here is my contributions have been

573
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,877
very open. But my advice to founders who
are on the right has actually been don't

574
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,517
be public about your political leanings
because you won't accomplish anything.

575
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,437
You will just you will be terminated
by the mob. You should focus on building.

576
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,357
You should focus on creating value
and then after you don't need the rest of

577
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,517
the industry, you can kick them to the

578
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,877
curb and do something else. How do you

579
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,557
how do you implement that philosophy

580
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,757
um differently now at Anderil so that
you have a more inclusive place where

581
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,797
folks on the left and folks on the right
come together work on things that really

582
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,237
matter. I mean I think everybody agrees
you're building really important things

583
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,197
in the world. So how do you do that this
time around? That's different from the

584
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,597
Facebook experience. So >> there's
a few things. One I think that

585
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,277
building working in national security
has been a great filter where uh people

586
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:35,917
aren't going to come work for you
unless they're okay working in a bit of a

587
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,397
controversial field. I'm actually
somewhat concerned about the Ukraine

588
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,877
conflict in that regard in that in
the making of in in making defense

589
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,237
mainstream, it makes it possible
for people to potentially say, "Oh, that

590
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:48,717
isn't controversial now. I'm going
to go to this place and then I'm going to

591
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,957
potentially attack people with their
views." But I think when you run a

592
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,677
company that is inherently working
on something that's controversial, people

593
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:57,037
on the right and on the left both
feel like they're on the side of this

594
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,557
important bipartisan issue and all
of these other policy differences can kind

595
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,437
of go to the side. And the culture
at Anderil is everyone is free to have

596
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,117
whatever politics they want. You like
I'm a Republican. Our CEO, Brian Chimp,

597
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,877
is a Democrat. We both make significant
contributions to our respective sizes

598
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,957
and we have employees across the country.

599
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,557
And I think also it's it's nipping it
in the bud. You know, it's about when

600
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,317
somebody says something that is out
of line, it's about n getting in early and

601
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,077
say, "Hey, that's not okay at this
company. We're we're here to to work on

602
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,677
a common mission." For example, if we
had a manager who then publicly went and

603
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,637
said, "The half of my employees who
support this political candidate,

604
00:35:32,720 --> 00:35:36,157
they're terrible people.
They're shitty humans. They'd be fired.

605
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:39,197
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I'll give
you a counterfactual to what

606
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,637
this is, which is very aspirational,
which is seven or eight years ago, we

607
00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:46,877
funded a business that actually makes
seaf fairing drones. And the whole point

608
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,357
was to actually measure the surface flux
in the oceans, which you can use to get

609
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:53,117
a really good sense of climate change.

610
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,197
And somewhere along the way, we had the

611
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,677
chance to to do a contract with the DoD.

612
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:02,397
Um, but invariably there's a a faction
of folks inside this company that said

613
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,557
under no circumstances are we going
to put our efforts towards that. And as a

614
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,157
result then the company spent a

615
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:10,557
three-year detour trying to build a

616
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,597
weather app. Um, which turned out to not

617
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,997
be the right thing. And and 3 years
later um you know they're doing a bunch

618
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:23,357
of stuff now with these government
agencies. Um, and it turns out that's

619
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,917
the right thing to do because now
they're that much closer to actually

620
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,837
mapping the world's oceans which creates
a repository of data and there's all

621
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,357
these positive knock-on effects that
sometimes folks don't see. And you need

622
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,797
strong leadership to kind of say it's
what Elon said yesterday. You know,

623
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,197
companies are there to make products
that people and organizations want and

624
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,117
need u not necessarily to fight over
political ideals. Well, I think one of

625
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,597
the interesting things in the example
you just gave, like I I mentioned

626
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,877
earlier, I have some empathy for people
who work in companies who don't want to

627
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,477
work in defense. Like I think broadly
the technology industry needs to support

628
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,957
the military. And I'm glad that the
conflict in Ukraine has changed at least

629
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,397
the thinking around that. Uh but at the
individual level, people should have the

630
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,117
right to choose to work on what they
think is important. And so the Google

631
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,997
example was interesting because it was
Google employees saying, "Hey, I didn't

632
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,437
sign up to work on weapons and I can
understand that maybe they're pacifist

633
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,397
and they say, you know, for religious
reasons, for philosophical reasons, I I

634
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,957
cannot work on this." and they were
upset that their work was put to work on

635
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,997
defense without it being clear.
And I suspect that in the situation you're

636
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,797
talking about is similar objections were
raised. Hey, this is when I joined the

637
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,077
company to do this isn't what I signed
up for. And so at Andreal, one of the

638
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,197
ways that we've been able to get around
this is just being very clear like you

639
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,917
are signing up to work with the
Department of Defense. That is that is

640
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:31,437
the mission that you're signing up for.

641
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,677
And uh I mean we're we're about a third
US service veterans at Andro, which is

642
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,237
higher than any company that I'm aware of.
And we're about a thousand people

643
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,317
now. Um [applause] and so
these are people who uh they

644
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,037
understand the importance
of the mission, >> right?

645
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,677
>> Uh just shifting gears for a second,
I want to ask you about drones. First, let

646
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,477
me just say that um the first time I
tried VR, which was Oculus, I thought it

647
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,917
was one of the most magical computing
experiences I've ever had. So, I don't

648
00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:00,237
know, have you guys tried it?
You you put the goggles on. [applause]

649
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:02,957
>> I did the thing >> and you're
in the Oculus trailer and

650
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,357
it's like it was amazing. I did
the thing where you show like a big hole.

651
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:10,397
>> Like Facebook had this demo for a while
or whatever and I thought I was going to

652
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,837
fall into the hole and then I fell forward
and I fell on the ledge of the cliff table

653
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,337
>> and I didn't I didn't want to like
tiptoe beyond it. I'm like I don't

654
00:38:18,420 --> 00:38:21,917
[laughter] know. I'm like wait I
know this is not real but anyway

655
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,677
>> VR is the it's so funny. These are I
feel these mental circuits that haven't

656
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:29,997
activated for years activating.
So I've got my talking points but

657
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,677
>> VR is the final computing platform.
It's not the next one. It's the final one.

658
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,877
And people talk about augmented reality
and it's very interesting. I love AR. We

659
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,117
did a lot of great AR foundational work.

660
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,917
But at the end of the day, if you
can make a tool that allows you to

661
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,397
experience anything and in any way
that can emulate every other medium, it is

662
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,717
going to be the >> Parker
caught on a question. Go ahead.

663
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,797
>> Well, I was going to ask
you ask about drones. Um, so um

664
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,597
>> Well, maybe maybe I should answer.
Why isn't it caught on? It's not It's not

665
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,877
good enough yet. People ask I'll have
this debate. People like, "Well, I'm not

666
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,157
sure VR is ever really going to be
a thing. Explain the dimension when you

667
00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:06,397
say it's not good enough. Is it weight?

668
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,437
Is it physical interface?
>> It's a whole bunch of things. It's

669
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,237
content being available. You need
a self-sustaining ecosystem of a broad

670
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,597
enough variety of content that enough
people can use it to create further

671
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,317
network effects. So that's part of it
is just a content thing. You have to build

672
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,557
a self-sustaining flywheel.
Until you have that

673
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,397
>> apps aren't good enough
yet to draw people in.

674
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,317
>> They're not good enough and they
don't they don't have broad enough appeal.

675
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,117
There's a particular niche where we
have a flywheel. Like there's a dozens of

676
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,877
developers that are making many millions
of dollars making games for Quest 2, but

677
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,597
that's its own little niche. The other
thing is quality, its weight, and its

678
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,917
cost. Like the example that I like
to use when arguing with people who say

679
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,317
that VR is not going to be a thing
that they spend their whole life in, say,

680
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,517
"Okay, wait. Imagine this.
What if for $99 you can pair buy a pair of

681
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,957
sunglasses and it gives you
an experience the quality of the Matrix or

682
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,357
Sword Online or whatever your sci-fi pick
is >> and you can do anything and there's

683
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,037
endless content. It'll >> get there."

684
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,877
>> And it's people like, "Oh, of course
I would use that." But but but but that's

685
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,237
not what VR is. Well, then that's just
a tech disagreement. Philosophically, we

686
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,637
agree how fast we'll get there. So,
I mean, listen, you created the category.

687
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:06,237
How far away are we?
>> It depends on the experience. So, the

688
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,637
hardest things to simulate are going
to be the ones that are kind of like these

689
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:12,237
multi-haptic multi-element things that
rely on scent and motion. Like surfing

690
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,917
is going to be really, really hard.
Uh, on the other hand, being able to

691
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,157
perfectly simulate the experience of being
in a brightly lit fluorescent, you

692
00:40:20,240 --> 00:40:22,797
know, fluorescent conference room,
that's going to happen within 10 years.

693
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,517
Like the resolution will be there,
the weight will be there. You will be able

694
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,557
to perfectly simulate that experience.

695
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,037
You know how much of my life I've spent
flying to the other side of the world to

696
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,317
sit in fluorescent lit conference rooms
and then flying back. If I if I can just

697
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,677
eliminate that part of my life, it's
way better for me. But it's it's going to

698
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,117
start by simulating that experience
where it's low dynamic range. You don't

699
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,677
need tons of haptics and then
it's going to go from there.

700
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,117
>> Wait, Zach is going
to talk about drones.

701
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,237
>> Yeah, let's just shift gears for a

702
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,197
second to to drones. So um obviously in

703
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,277
Ukraine right now the um the the Russian

704
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,797
military and specifically their armors
has been pulverized by the combination

705
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,997
of the Javelin plus this Turkish drone

706
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,717
this I guess by Ractor. Yeah.

707
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,277
>> So I guess this has raised the profile
I would imagine it's raised the profile of

708
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,277
drones and uh the use of drones in the

709
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,757
military. Also, it points out the

710
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,197
weakness of having kind of a large

711
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,877
platform strategy. In the case of the
Russian military, their platform is this

712
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,957
Russian tank, but so is our military.

713
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:23,197
We're built around aircraft
carriers and the F-35. Yes.

714
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,117
>> Um, and you know, the Abrams tank.
All these things, I would imagine, are

715
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,157
susceptible to drones. And the thing

716
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:34,557
that's destroying the Russians is their
tank costs a couple million bucks and it

717
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:36,717
can be destroyed by a drone that costs

718
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,437
200,000. many more than a million, tens

719
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,917
of millions for EMP. So, we just won
a billion dollar contract with US SOCOM

720
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,677
special operations command to to do
counter drone work. And so, to a certain

721
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,717
extent, the what you have to do is then
say, okay, we're going to have these you

722
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,197
these armored systems. We're going
to have these vessels and then we need to

723
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,997
have technology that allows to counter
drones and it is possible to counter

724
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,317
drones. What's going on with Russia
is they don't have the technology to

725
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,037
counter drones and so they're
they're largely just totally

726
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,397
>> Can I Can I ask you something about
this contract just general terms? You said

727
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,237
something very important before which is
the military-industrial complex today is

728
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,197
basically paid to do work
not to get to a result.

729
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,197
>> Yes. >> How do you
fight that when you're like

730
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,757
when when you hear a billion dollar
contract is that cost plus that DoD just

731
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,557
is willing to give you? So this is I
mean we could do a whole talk on this

732
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,597
but fundamentally for people don't know
a cost plus contract structure is the

733
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:25,997
way that most work for the Department
of Defense has done. That means you get

734
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,197
paid for your time, your materials, your
people, and then a fixed percentage of

735
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,277
profit on top even if you're way way
way way over your budget until Congress

736
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:34,797
eventually takes them money.
>> And then there's layers of

737
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,717
subcontractors, so the costs all add up.

738
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,077
>> Exactly. And so the the bad the bad
thing about this is that not only the

739
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,997
prime contractor owns the contract,
but everyone under them is incentivized to

740
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,717
come up with the most expensive way of
solving a problem that they can convince

741
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,917
the government to fund. So they wanted
to build the most expensive system with

742
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:53,997
the most expensive parts with as many
hours as possible. And the bids are so

743
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,517
complex that you're only going to have
one or two real bids and they're

744
00:42:57,600 --> 00:42:58,477
basically going to be the same price.

745
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,197
>> And those top bids, the worst part
is they're not just trying to come up with

746
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,917
the most successful solution. They're
even encouraging the subcontractors

747
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,877
under them. They get a% >> because
they get a percent of that. And

748
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,077
so if I'm getting, let's say,
6% profit margin, I want to make it

749
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,157
>> as big a number as possible
>> and I want to drag it out like

750
00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:14,637
>> and that's why this budget's
ballooned like crazy despite the last.

751
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:16,557
>> They make more money
when they do poorly

752
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,437
because they're not being paid to make
things that work. They're being paid to

753
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,437
do work. That's what I said.
Just the act of the doing is what gets

754
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,197
>> now for you.
What do you do differently?

755
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,237
>> So we use our own money to decide
what to build, how to build it when it's

756
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,197
done. We're using building our own
products. And when we're going to the

757
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,597
customer, we're not going to them.
Look, first of all, I can't just build

758
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,077
whatever I want. I can't build
a Batmobile and then try to sell it to the

759
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,597
army. But I I we we talk to them about
their problems. They understand their

760
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:41,357
problems. They don't It would be cool.

761
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:45,037
Be so patient. >> But but sorry.
Would you build someone

762
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,717
in this room a Batmobile if he could
come up with the money? Look, if if it's

763
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,877
if it solved a real problem, I mean,
if if that was the right way to solve

764
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,437
profit, >> all right,
probably not. But but the

765
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,077
nice thing about this is that when we
go to customers, we're not going to them

766
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,557
with a white paper saying, "Hey, let the
taxpayers pay for us to try this out for

767
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,917
years and years." We say, "We've already
proven that this works. It will not be a

768
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,677
boondoggle for you. It will work." We go
to them with a working system with a full

769
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:13,917
>> delivering goods
and services already derisked.

770
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,957
>> Exactly. And and the thing
is this is popular with the customers and

771
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,237
politicians alike because it removes
the risk of them getting into political

772
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,877
boondoggles like the F-35
program being a trillion dollar.

773
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,237
>> So this creates this creates new budget
line items because now folks are saying

774
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,117
I can actually get out of this.
I'm going to move money from whatever

775
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,237
pot of money I'm spending over here.
Move it into this sort of a

776
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,117
structure and then that creates
competitive dynamics in the market.

777
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:36,637
>> That's right. >> Yeah.
So how does it how does it

778
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:41,037
actually close the loop? So for example,
you deliver a drone to the DoD, it costs

779
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:42,877
$10,000. I'm making up a number. It cost

780
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:46,797
$10,000 and it works on ABC dimension.

781
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,397
And then there's whoever makes General
Dynamics makes the Hellfire drone.

782
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:52,397
Again, I don't know
the specifics, >> of course.

783
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,117
>> Uh, and they want
to charge 90,000 or 110,000.

784
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,117
How do they still not get picked?

785
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,237
Because it seems if you look at their um

786
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:03,917
performance as public companies,

787
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,877
>> Yep. It's an incredibly steady. It's

788
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,437
almost like an inflationary line item,

789
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,997
you know, that you can predict 6 8
9 10% growth consistently every year.

790
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,117
>> Correct. It is. I mean, the defense
companies are not high growth, high

791
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:19,757
margin companies. They're
extraordinarily predictable. People

792
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,797
basically see them as an extension of
the US government. It's like buying bonds.

793
00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,197
>> The US federal budget. >> Yes.
Exactly. And as the window and when

794
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,237
the budget goes up, you see a direct
proportional and linear increase.

795
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,637
>> Palmer, let me ask you, hold on.
Hold on. Palmer, let me ask you a question

796
00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:34,397
about uh something very pragmatic
knowing what you know in the in the to

797
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,277
your building and uh I do appreciate the
work you're doing defending the country.

798
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,997
I think it's important work and I told
you that um and [applause] uh I lobbied

799
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,357
you to be here >> uh to have
your platform and to have

800
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,597
your voice and I've probably sent you
no less than 30 or 40 invites to come on

801
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:55,117
the pods. Can't deny that. And so I told
you I'm willing to have any debate at

802
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,997
any time. I'm going to put aside
the personal stuff, but knowing what you

803
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,117
know, uh, doing this very good work, um,

804
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:05,597
the situation in Taiwan, if it
does materialize, what would it

805
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:07,357
look like

806
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:12,157
today given the tools we have? And would

807
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:16,877
we be able to would Taiwan be able
to defend itself? What would that look

808
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,677
like? Cuz that seems to be the next
hot spot that we may have to do.

809
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,637
>> Will weapons get shipped in there
like they are in the Ukraine? No, that we

810
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,757
were able to ship weapons into Ukraine
because we had countries like Poland

811
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,517
that were willing to at massive
existential risk to themselves step

812
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:34,077
forward. Yeah. Pol Poland has been paint
unsung hero in this and getting weapons

813
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,877
through. But Taiwan, what's going
to happen is there's a few ways this could

814
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,117
go. It could either be just a blitz
where they go in, destroy the ports,

815
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,557
destroy the airports, immediately occupy.
That's that could happen. The

816
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,997
other way this could happen could be
a more drawn out blockade where they

817
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,637
blockade the island. Is the US willing
to pull the trigger on a blockade? It's

818
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:56,237
unclear. But if you can stop trade, if
you can economically strangle them, make

819
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,277
sure new weapons don't get to them, they
can be in a very, very bad position. And

820
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,717
it's not clear that we or anyone else
will be able to do that. No, there's

821
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,677
different opinions on how things are
going to go. I I can't pretend that I

822
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,877
know exactly what it is. I can say
Taiwan does not have the tools today

823
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,397
that they need to deter Chinese
aggression. They might have had the

824
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,357
tools they needed to deter it a decade
ago, but Chinese military has been

825
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,797
ascendant. They've been investing
so heavily in new technology, distri

826
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,077
distributed swarms, high-end electronic
warfare systems, and all of the

827
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,957
amphibious landing craft that they're
going to need to perform an invasion.

828
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,237
They they've just they've built
the capability that they need. It's just

829
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,957
>> how vulnerable are
our aircraft carriers.

830
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:32,877
>> How vulnerable are aircraft carriers?

831
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,437
>> They're extremely vulnerable to the
point where we we feel like we can't use

832
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:36,717
them. The problem is aircraft carriers

833
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,677
were not designed to be a peer-to-peer

834
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,557
uh a peer-to-peer great powers tool for

835
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,717
us to go toe-to-toe with the Soviets or
the Chinese. Like the reality is if each

836
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,557
side launches 200 missiles, one of them
is going to get through and it's going

837
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:52,877
to end up hitting the thing. And this is
especially true with satellite targeting

838
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,997
systems. They were designed in the
modern day to project power to places

839
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,757
where you have air superiority
uncontested. So there it's great to have

840
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,837
a mobile base that can go somewhere and
project power, but it you you you cannot

841
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:07,757
stop the Chinese that way. And also if
we send a carrier out there uh and they

842
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:10,557
manage to sync it, that's
5,000 lives lost in one hit.

843
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,517
>> Hey Palmer, we got a wrap,
but I'll say this. Uh,

844
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:15,677
>> wait. I I got to say
one more thing on Taiwan.

845
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,837
>> Well, hold on a second.
Oh, not about me. Great. Go.

846
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:23,800
>> No, no, no.
Not this time. Not this time.

847
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:28,877
>> I was bracing for impact. I don't
have any anti-pommer drone systems.

848
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:30,637
>> I I will say I will be
working on them next week.

849
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,997
>> I will say this about Jal. If you did
that to Cara Swisser, she would have she

850
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,957
would have like not she would
have pulled you off stage.

851
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,397
>> Keep going. >> You're so right.

852
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,557
>> Yeah. [cheering and applause]

853
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,277
And I think I think I think I I will say

854
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,197
so and and and JCL JCL is um he's an

855
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,117
incredibly loyal friend. He's got an

856
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,997
incredibly um good heart. And I think

857
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,237
that you know whatever he said or did
uh it was really brave of him to come out

858
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:59,037
here and also have the conversation. And
he wants to have the conversation, wants

859
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,837
to have a dialogue. And he always wants
to do that with all of us. Sometimes he

860
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,357
conflicts a bit and he and he butts heads.
But I will say this about JCal,

861
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,197
he means well. And I want to kind
of say that for >> [applause]

862
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:12,077
>> But anyway, finish your point about
Taiwan. Let's talk about the importance

863
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,917
of that. >> Cara says,
"I'm a douchy man boy and a

864
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,797
fourth reich broi." So, not that you

865
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,037
remembered. Got to love memory.
I think your cosplay

866
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,597
stuff is cool. I was I was brave enough
to do cosplay. I'm a little jealous of

867
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,797
that. I'll be honest. And I would love
to go cosplay with you sometime. But

868
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,717
tell us Taiwan.
>> Not the way to wrap the the the

869
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,757
>> I WANT TO HEAR TAIWAN. All right. Yes.

870
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:41,917
The big difference between Taiwan
and Ukraine is that we still have a chance

871
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,077
to make a difference. So what I'm so
terrified of is that all these people

872
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,197
who say, "Ah, we stand for Ukraine.
We have to do this. This is the fight of

873
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,757
fight of our, you know, fight of our
generation." And then they're not going

874
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,957
to do anything. And then immediately
after Taiwan is invaded, they're going

875
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,077
to change their profile pictures
to a Taiwanese flag and say, "Oh man, we

876
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,477
stand with Taiwan." It's like, "No,
that's not good enough. If you care

877
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,557
about this issue, there's things you can
do right now." And and and what's really

878
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,757
amazing to me is you have people who
are saying like, "Oh, man. I I stand with

879
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,557
Ukraine. We're cutting off all of our
Russian business." I'm like, "Oh, wow.

880
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:14,637
So brave. You cut off an entire country
that's a regulatory nightmare. Has an

881
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:16,797
economy smaller than most US states."

882
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:21,517
Sorry, not most. Many. Uh yeah. It's
like, "Oh, wow. You're so so brave for

883
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,717
cutting off Russians." And then at the
same time, they say, "Oh, but uh all of

884
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:28,077
our expansion is in China." And and and I
I'm not going to say anything about

885
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,877
that. I think that worse than the people
who change their profile pictures are

886
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:34,317
going to be the people who remain silent
when Taiwan is invaded and they say they

887
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,277
just can't say anything because their
business interests are so intermaged and

888
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,757
so intertangled and that like that China
has been fighting a strategic and

889
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,517
economic war against us for a long time
and it is extraordinarily good. The last

890
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,237
thing I'll say on this, I talked about
it earlier. There's a uniquely American

891
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,237
delusion probably from our own Hollywood
films that we can solve any problem the

892
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:53,837
last second that will come in and we

893
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,917
just be boom sex we win. That isn't how

894
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:01,757
Taiwan is going to go. There is no DSX
Machina. We know exactly what's going to

895
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,037
happen. The war planners have figured
out exactly one of several scenarios

896
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:08,157
it's going to go. And when it's
happened, we can't pretend like we

897
00:51:08,240 --> 00:51:12,157
didn't know. Um and and there isn't going
to be anything that flies in to save.

898
00:51:12,240 --> 00:51:13,757
>> So, okay. So, >> hold on.
I just want to say one more

899
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,117
thing and then I'll let you close.

900
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,597
>> You and I can debate anti-Hillary ads,
the Donald Trump subreddit, all of those

901
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:24,157
things. What we cannot debate is how
important it is that the United States

902
00:51:24,240 --> 00:51:28,077
win and that democracy wins and that
freedom comes to all of these countries.

903
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,877
You and I are 100% aligned on that.
Even if we disagree about the anti-Hillary

904
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,957
ads or any of that stuff. >> Amen.

905
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:39,357
>> I appreciate you coming [applause]
and I'll debate you on anything, anytime,

906
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,837
anywhere. >> I do care
about my family by the way.

907
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:43,357
That was the worst thing you said.

908
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,477
>> Okay. And fair enough. >> I will
apologize for that statement if I

909
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:50,157
did say it. Wait, Jake, say the letter.

910
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:52,877
Say the letter. >> I just
said if if if I said something

911
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:56,717
that hurt your feelings about that and it
was out of line, I apologize. But

912
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,797
what's more important right now is that

913
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,917
you're here talking about the work
you're doing and you and I will debate

914
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,117
till the cows come home this other stuff.
I can't stop you. I can't stop

915
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,157
your credit. No commentator,
no journalist can stop a founder. I

916
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:14,957
disagree with that. Um >> Oh,
I just You can stop a lot of people.

917
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,517
>> I think we're overestimating
my influence in the world. You're a force

918
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,997
of nature. The work you do is undeniable.
We can debate politics as

919
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:25,757
much as we want. This country needs
to be protected. The people at Google are

920
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,557
cowards for not doing DoD contracts.

921
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,317
You're not a coward. You came out here.

922
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,917
You, you know, you take me on straight
up as a man. I appreciate it. It was a

923
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:35,117
little bit of a blind side, but I can

924
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,597
take it. Um, what's most important is

925
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,517
the work you're doing.
That's what's most important.

926
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,717
>> I mean, is a sucker punch,
but I It's okay. I'm from Brooklyn.

927
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:49,837
>> Thank you. We appreciate
you coming. We appreciate

928
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,530
you coming. Bottom line.
[applause] [cheering]

929
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:03,880
HUG IT OUT. HUG.

930
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:09,940
[cheering]

931
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,277
Let your [music] winners ride.

932
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,197
>> Hey everybody, that was pretty crazy.

933
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,997
What an amazing moment. I think we all
learned a lot, but I actually wanted to

934
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:21,837
show you the clip of the comments that
Palmer referenced just to provide some

935
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,677
context uh for those of you who are

936
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,237
unaware. The clip was from a show uh in

937
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,277
March of 2017, episode 721 of my other
podcast, This Week in Startups. And

938
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,797
listen, I'm super aware that this could
come across as defensive, but I think

939
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:36,877
some people might not know what Palmer

940
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,797
was talking about, so I'll let you

941
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,317
decide for yourself. We recorded um uh

942
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:47,437
that episode, episode 721, the day
Palmer Lucky was fired from Facebook and

943
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,797
u it was a news round table of the
podcast. I'm talking to Austin Peters

944
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,957
Smith who worked at Inside at the time
and Ian Thompson of the Register. He's a

945
00:53:55,040 --> 00:54:00,317
great journalist. Uh and just to clarify
some uh facts here and the timeline,

946
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,277
these are from the Daily Beast article
in which Palmer was interviewed. You can

947
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,957
go read that. It's in the show notes.
Um and the facts are pretty basic. Palmer

948
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,557
Lucky donated some amount of money to a
proTrump political organization. It was

949
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,957
called Nimble America right before
the 2016 election. And as you just heard

950
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:16,717
during the All-InSummit talk, Palmer

951
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,197
said it was like $9,000. Nimble America

952
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:24,397
was part of the infamous subreddit page,
The Donald, if you remember that. Nimble

953
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,237
America. They basically made
anti-Hillary and proTrump memes, and

954
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,477
they were self-proclaimed posters,
as we uh now talk about on the internet.

955
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:36,157
The organization said it was dedicated
to proving quote posting is

956
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:41,357
powerful and me magic is real. Uh Palmer
was posting to the Ronald under the

957
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:45,437
anonymous Reddit account called Nimble
Richman. Here was one post which Palmer

958
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,757
confirmed writing that was referenced
in the clip you were about to see. The

959
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,717
American Revolution was funded
by wealthy individuals. The same has been

960
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,877
true of many movements for freedom in
history. You can't fight uh the American

961
00:54:56,960 --> 00:55:00,477
elite without serious firepower. They
will outspend you and destroy you by any

962
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,557
and all means. And here is what Palmer
told the Daily Beast in 2016 when asked

963
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,437
about supporting Nimble America.
I've got plenty of money. Money is not my

964
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,877
issue. I thought it sounded like
a really jolly good time. Again, if you're

965
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,597
listening, you might hear some other
voices talking. Those are the two guests

966
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,917
that I mentioned before. You can watch
this 3 minute and 22 second clip, uh,

967
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:19,997
which is just a mashup of my commentary.

968
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:23,357
I'll see you on the other
side of 3 minutes.

969
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,397
He was supporting

970
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,957
like I don't want to say violent

971
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,997
trolling, but extreme trolling would be
the way to do it. That's right. And his

972
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,517
comment about it was really insensitive
kind of that it was it was almost maybe

973
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:41,757
not super um ideologically
driven as much as it

974
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:45,197
was like fun for him. >> What an idiot.

975
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,757
>> Well, it actually lost it lost them
a fair amount of business. There were

976
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,557
about three or four game studios that
said, "Right, we're no longer developing

977
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,677
for the Oculus on this one." because
he came out and said basically, well, to

978
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,957
overturn an entrenched elite, then you
need to be able to fund it and and and

979
00:55:57,040 --> 00:55:58,797
fight back. And you're like, idiot.

980
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,037
That's not you're you're not
a revolutionary. This is just HIT posting

981
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:07,037
about politicians. This is not
constructive dialogue. This is not an

982
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,637
attempt to get reform the American
political scene. This is just, oh, let's

983
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:13,517
be a troll. >> Yeah.
If you want to see like a person's

984
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,037
true character, give them a pile
of money or a bunch of power [laughter]

985
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:20,157
and then you will see >> two bottles
of vodka works very well on that

986
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:21,677
>> as well. It's like
the sort of quick way

987
00:56:21,760 --> 00:56:25,117
of being a billionaire or whatever. But I
mean, can you imagine? I just want to

988
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:28,237
stop for a second and just give
everybody in my portfolio or the people

989
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,037
I work with just a public service

990
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,197
announcement. If you are lucky enough to

991
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,997
hit the jackpot and make hundreds of

992
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,157
millions of dollars, behave yourself,

993
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:42,237
you

994
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:47,917
You hit the jackpot. It's like
somebody winning the Mega Ball

995
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,797
lottery. >> Mhm.
and then just going on the street

996
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:52,317
and randomly punching people in the

997
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:55,517
face. Like this guy Parker Lucky is a

998
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:59,677
complete and utter For somebody
to be a visionary to create something

999
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,917
like Oculus and make VR, I bought the

1000
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,437
Oculus. It's pretty impressive. I have

1001
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,197
to say I believe that VR is at least 2

1002
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:11,677
years away from being a meaningful
business opportunity. But that's about

1003
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:14,877
the window where I like to invest.
So it's it's kind of on my radar now. In

1004
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:18,637
fact, we have one company in our
incubator. But Jesus, this kid's an

1005
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:22,717
idiot. But this case, >> Palmer
Lucky is just an idiot and a

1006
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:25,197
troll. So [snorts] dumb. Here's the

1007
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:30,477
other thing. I think on a leadership
basis, if you represent the company,

1008
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,917
>> so you represent your company first,
Oculus, and your vision of the world,

1009
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,437
behave yourself. Number two, if you

1010
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:41,357
represent the company that's worth
a couple of hundred billion dollars that

1011
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,197
made you a billionaire and you represent
Mark and Dreason who invested in your

1012
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,317
company and and Jason Harwitz and you
represent all the employees and all

1013
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:52,717
their families and everybody who's
entire net worth is locked up in this,

1014
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,797
you have a higher

1015
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,757
uh duty of service. And this is a

1016
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,837
complete lack of moral character
and leadership for someone like Paul to be

1017
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,077
doing this posting. F it. I'm going
to say it. Let's move on to the next

1018
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:09,517
Facebook story. And now that we got
over the Palmer Lucky is just a complete

1019
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:13,677
who doesn't appreciate his success
or care about any of his employees,

1020
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,957
family members, team members. If you're
going to do that kind of shenanigans, if

1021
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:22,157
you don't, here's a clue.
I hate to get totally crazy. If

1022
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,077
you're doing something
like this anonymously,

1023
00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:29,917
you might want to think that the anonymity

1024
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,717
plus Reddit plus you would be ashamed
about it. Like think about what you're

1025
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:38,797
doing if it's anonymous. In other words,
if you have to put a mask on and then

1026
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,557
you throw the brick through the window,
you may not want to throw the brick

1027
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:46,557
through the window cuz you weren't
willing to do it with your mask off.

1028
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:49,437
Okay, so closing thoughts. I respect

1029
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,917
Palmer Lucky uh for his incredible
innovations both with Oculus and his new

1030
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,397
company. We actually agree on many

1031
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:59,117
things uh which actually people in the

1032
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:03,517
tech industry might not which is hey
producing weapon systems to protect

1033
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:07,677
America and democracy uh around
the world is a beautiful and important

1034
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,597
thing. I respect Palmer for what he's

1035
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,357
doing there and we have a disagreement

1036
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:14,877
about uh you know this uh meme action

1037
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:19,197
that he did but yeah all is well that
ends well. It was an interesting moment

1038
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:23,117
in time. I don't regret exactly what I
said. I think what I said was fair. Uh,

1039
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:27,437
and when I talked about it in context,
I was, you know, coming from a place that

1040
00:59:27,520 --> 00:59:30,877
if you're going to post stuff, post it
under your real name, not anonymously.

1041
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:34,957
And so, there you have it, folks. That's
the entire controversy. Uh, thank you to

1042
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,797
Palmer Lucky for coming. Thanks to my
besties for having my back. Uh, there

1043
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,757
was this big question of if I would
go out and engage the discussion. Of

1044
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,317
course, I want to go out and engage the
discussion. I want to talk. I don't mind

1045
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,157
a hard discussion. And in fact, that's
what this podcast is about. Having hard

1046
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:51,277
discussions and then keeping
our friendships and keeping it moving

1047
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:55,277
forward. I look forward to hosting this
podcast forever. They're going to have

1048
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:59,997
to take drag me out of here and I hope
we can uh host another all-in summit and

1049
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,077
all of you can attend either uh

1050
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:07,277
virtually or in person. It's great
to uh have had Farmer at the event and

1051
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,997
actually I hope he comes next year
and and shares more of the exciting work

1052
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,077
he's doing at Androl and I wish him the

1053
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:17,880
best. [music] We'll let your winners ride.

1054
01:00:18,260 --> 01:00:20,280
[music]

1055
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:27,640
>> We open sourced it to the fans and
they've [music] just gone crazy with it.

1056
01:00:28,740 --> 01:00:30,760
[music]

1057
01:00:33,980 --> 01:00:34,020
[music]

1058
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,877
>> Besties are

1059
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,400
my dog taking a driveway.

1060
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:44,317
Oh man, my habitasher
[music] will meet the endless.

1061
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,277
>> We should all just get a room and just
have like one big huge orgy cuz they're

1062
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:53,880
all just like this like sexual tension
that we just need to release somehow.

1063
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:03,400
>> We need to get merch.
>> I'm going all [music] in.

1064
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,720
I'm going all in. [music]

1065
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,117
Okay. Wait. Jal, stay out here. Hey,

1066
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,797
Nick. Nick, can you cue
the uh can you cue the photo?

1067
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:25,800
>> What photo? Oh, no. >> Backstage.
This is what happened at the last break.

1068
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,477
>> I think we got there.
>> Well, this is what I said. I said,

1069
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,557
"You're you don't have drones over
my house, right? Just to confirm."

1070
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:37,757
>> And he said, "Uh, cannot >>
someone tagline that." said cannot

1071
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:40,640
confirm or deny.