WEBVTT 00:00:02.930 --> 00:00:03.207 more interesting, more creatively, you know, diverse. 00:00:03.290 --> 00:00:05.721 - You said that Red Dead Redemption 2, in your opinion, 00:00:05.804 --> 00:00:07.087 is the best thing you've ever 00:00:07.170 --> 00:00:10.687 done. I think there's a strong case to be made that it's the greatest game of all 00:00:10.770 --> 00:00:15.837 time. What are the elements that make that game truly great, do you think? 00:00:15.920 --> 00:00:19.787 - I think you had an incredibly strong team working together that was 00:00:19.870 --> 00:00:26.390 very experienced that had basically been in place since somewhere between 2001 and 00:00:26.490 --> 00:00:30.207 2006. So it was a long, experienced team. I think we got to 00:00:30.290 --> 00:00:34.207 spend a smaller group of us working on it from day one, 00:00:34.290 --> 00:00:38.097 coming up with some wacky ideas that we 00:00:38.180 --> 00:00:41.717 got to embed in the game. And then we kind had to follow through 00:00:41.800 --> 00:00:45.497 with. But I think it was helpful that we got to be very creative before it 00:00:45.580 --> 00:00:52.580 had a full team on it. I think that the cowboy setting is great because it 00:00:53.400 --> 00:00:57.267 gives a sort of mythic seriousness that sometimes doing stuff in 00:00:57.350 --> 00:00:59.310 a contemporary setting doesn't allow. You know, 00:00:59.394 --> 00:01:01.177 I think the closest we got to that kind of 00:01:01.260 --> 00:01:02.879 seriousness was GTA IV, but it just can't... 00:01:02.962 --> 00:01:05.037 Once you're setting things in the modern world, they're 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:10.617 too frenetic. You can't get some of that slightly, you know, operatic feel that I 00:01:10.700 --> 00:01:14.557 love. That some people think is maybe a little over the top, but I, you know, I 00:01:14.640 --> 00:01:18.177 love this kind of, you know, people searching for meaning— 00:01:18.260 --> 00:01:21.977 ...within, amongst the violence. I think that the West and all of the themes 00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:24.933 around the West really lend themselves to that. So I think that, 00:01:25.016 --> 00:01:25.917 and then the gunplay 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:29.857 was fantastic, and the horses were incredible. So I think you had this 00:01:29.940 --> 00:01:32.326 combination of technical know-how, a very, very strong team, 00:01:32.409 --> 00:01:36.617 and really strong material. very, very strong team, and really strong material. 00:01:36.700 --> 00:01:40.160 - Where did you have to go in your mind, maybe philosophically, maybe 00:01:40.300 --> 00:01:44.077 spiritually, to be able to create the RDR world? Of course, it was 00:01:44.160 --> 00:01:47.077 based on Red Dead Revolver, but that's— - Yes 00:01:47.160 --> 00:01:50.880 - —that's a fundamentally different. I mean, that leap 00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:56.727 into the great mythic story that was Red Dead Redemption one. 00:01:56.810 --> 00:02:00.910 And then even more so, Red Dead Redemption two. That was unlike anything 00:02:02.060 --> 00:02:06.657 you, or maybe anyone, has ever created in video games. 00:02:06.740 --> 00:02:09.620 - Thank you. - So, like, what drugs were involved? 00:02:10.220 --> 00:02:13.417 - No drugs. - Okay. - No. Stopped the drugs long before. 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:17.854 - Okay. - That's why I did all that work. Had nothing else to do. So yeah, 00:02:17.937 --> 00:02:22.517 open world video games were very good for my mental health in that way. Kept me 00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:26.437 busy. But Red, so Red— 00:02:26.520 --> 00:02:30.897 Dead, I'll tell, I'll give you my version. Now the games are made by big teams. 00:02:30.980 --> 00:02:34.917 So, but I will give you my human interest version of the story from 00:02:35.000 --> 00:02:38.617 my perspective only. We made Red Dead Revolver, 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:41.795 decided that, or finished Red Dead Revolver that had been a Capcom game. 00:02:41.878 --> 00:02:42.497 And they didn't 00:02:42.580 --> 00:02:45.974 want to finish it, so we finished it. And they released it in Japan and we released 00:02:46.057 --> 00:02:50.517 it in the US in, I think, 2004. And decided we would start work on 00:02:50.600 --> 00:02:55.140 an open-world cowboy game for PS3. 00:02:56.440 --> 00:02:59.460 Didn't think too much more about it, and that was when we did a bunch of other 00:02:59.544 --> 00:03:06.477 stuff to work on. And slowly, 2005, 2006, the game started to come to life. I began 00:03:06.560 --> 00:03:13.560 to meet with the lead designer, Christian Cantamessa, and thrash out a few 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.760 ideas and story ideas for the game, and began to think about some stuff. And 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:21.518 start thinking about, well, what works for an open-world game? 00:03:21.601 --> 00:03:26.517 What works for a cowboy game? And again, I was being lazy or procrastinating. 00:03:26.600 --> 00:03:30.437 - Can we just on a small tangent, when you mentioned you take notes 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:33.907 when you're being lazy. What do those notes look like? Are they like doodles? 00:03:33.990 --> 00:03:36.317 - They look like either a yellow pad— 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:39.737 —or a BlackBerry in those days, or an iPhone in these 00:03:39.820 --> 00:03:43.617 days. I'll write the subject matter and then just email myself a note. 00:03:43.700 --> 00:03:47.197 Here's a good idea. Here's a good idea. Or it might almost be scribbling on a pad. 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:50.937 And then I'll assemble, if they're done digitally, then I'll do, I'll 00:03:51.020 --> 00:03:54.857 assemble them into one long Word file. And then I'll look at them and 00:03:54.940 --> 00:03:58.090 go, you know, "Here's an idea, here's an idea, here's an idea." 00:03:58.940 --> 00:04:01.879 See if it comes to anything. See if I now aggregate them together and then read 00:04:01.963 --> 00:04:04.598 through them. If there's anything coherent there. You know, 00:04:04.681 --> 00:04:06.437 something about a character like this, or that. 00:04:06.520 --> 00:04:09.422 This would be a funny line. This is a line for the main character. 00:04:09.505 --> 00:04:10.457 Actually make the main 00:04:10.540 --> 00:04:14.257 character work like this. You know, what about this relationship? 00:04:14.340 --> 00:04:18.177 As you start to just play around with, "What about if we start in that 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:21.379 place, go to that place?" Start just to play around with all of the different bits 00:04:21.463 --> 00:04:24.950 and pieces. And we began to flesh out 00:04:25.460 --> 00:04:29.177 some flow for the start of the game. And this idea you'd start in dusty 00:04:29.260 --> 00:04:32.537 American West, which meant we didn't have to make too many trees, and then go to 00:04:32.620 --> 00:04:35.880 Mexico, and then come back. And we had a sort of loose 00:04:35.980 --> 00:04:42.917 flow. And I was really scared of writing any actual dialogue. And I didn't 00:04:43.000 --> 00:04:46.937 have a clue how to go about it. And 00:04:47.020 --> 00:04:50.777 I kept... It'll come, it'll come. And I kept... because I could postpone it for 00:04:50.860 --> 00:04:54.490 ages because we were doing GTA IV. And I kept worrying about it. 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:58.497 My work was wrapped on GTA IV, but the game wasn't out yet. 00:04:58.580 --> 00:05:00.069 And we'd done a bunch of the marketing stuff, 00:05:00.153 --> 00:05:01.977 and had a little window when I wasn't doing much else. 00:05:02.060 --> 00:05:05.640 And I took a week with my then girlfriend, now 00:05:05.780 --> 00:05:09.697 wife, who was heavily pregnant with our first child, and we went up 00:05:09.780 --> 00:05:13.680 to a house upstate and sat there. Well, she, she, she 00:05:13.780 --> 00:05:16.677 sat there, either cooking for me or watching TV or reading. 00:05:16.760 --> 00:05:17.720 And I just went and 00:05:17.820 --> 00:05:21.276 sat in the room all day, every day. And just sat there and stared at the computer 00:05:21.359 --> 00:05:24.997 and tried to think about, "How can I do this so that it doesn't sound 00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:27.900 ridiculous?" How can you write in a cowboy 00:05:28.380 --> 00:05:32.360 idiom that feels both slightly contemporary but also 00:05:32.540 --> 00:05:35.680 gives the game this sort of life and this weight that I want it to have, 00:05:35.764 --> 00:05:39.080 and think we can get away with? And 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:44.157 after about three days, it just started to come. And then suddenly I wrote about 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.590 nine, 10 scenes in the next couple of days. And 00:05:47.020 --> 00:05:48.867 after that, I knew I had it. And it was a bit... 00:05:48.950 --> 00:05:50.717 I don't know if that's why there was so much 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:55.797 about a character caring about his family, because I was just beginning the 00:05:55.880 --> 00:05:58.417 process of having a family. - Oh. 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:01.046 - So I don't know if that- I don't know to what extent that bled in there, 00:06:01.130 --> 00:06:02.537 but I think it bled in there to some extent. 00:06:02.620 --> 00:06:05.470 - So that was part of creating the 360-degree characters. 00:06:05.900 --> 00:06:10.000 - I think so. - Here's this man that is 00:06:10.460 --> 00:06:14.197 capable, is involved in a lot of violence, who also cares about his family. 00:06:14.280 --> 00:06:18.177 - He's grown up and he's trying to step away from that and be a man, be 00:06:18.260 --> 00:06:21.657 a grown-up. And can he get away from it? And when he can't get away from 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:24.347 it, what's he willing to do to save his family? 00:06:24.430 --> 00:06:28.237 And that was, I felt, starting to get some idea. I mean, she, well, 00:06:28.320 --> 00:06:32.011 She hadn't given birth yet, but I was beginning to grapple with the ideas of, 00:06:32.094 --> 00:06:32.237 "I'm 00:06:32.320 --> 00:06:36.137 gonna become a parent." So I hope some of that... And obviously, then I didn't, 00:06:36.220 --> 00:06:39.205 probably didn't write any more for six months. So later on we had a child. 00:06:39.288 --> 00:06:42.867 But certainly for that first bit, I think some of that began to bleed in there. 00:06:42.950 --> 00:06:46.860 -...you got the feeling that you can actually do it. It's true, it's... 00:06:46.950 --> 00:06:50.870 It could have very easily been ridiculous and 00:06:51.130 --> 00:06:54.367 not believable, the dialogue between convoys. 00:06:54.450 --> 00:06:58.747 - Yes. - And, yes, I mean, there's probably so much work went into 00:06:58.830 --> 00:07:02.980 making it feel real and believable. And, and, like, that... 00:07:04.190 --> 00:07:11.190 Like a Shakespearean type of drama, but not the cheesy kind. 00:07:12.430 --> 00:07:16.367 - Well, just wanted it to feel when they spoke. I 00:07:16.450 --> 00:07:20.367 mean, I, I, I love dialogue. I'm always, you know, I love the sound of 00:07:20.450 --> 00:07:24.307 words, but just wanted to feel like when they sounded, it didn't sound cheesy, 00:07:24.390 --> 00:07:28.027 it didn't sound ridiculous. You wanted to hear them speak more. It didn't make you 00:07:28.110 --> 00:07:31.607 cringe awfully when they spoke. That was the... At some level that was all the goal 00:07:31.690 --> 00:07:35.500 was, and then they felt like this guy was gonna go on this life and 00:07:35.590 --> 00:07:39.407 death odyssey and you cared about him. You had to care about his wife and 00:07:39.490 --> 00:07:41.807 child that he left behind, even though you didn't know them. 00:07:41.890 --> 00:07:45.390 - When did you know how you were going to end Red Dead Redemption One? 00:07:46.010 --> 00:07:48.547 - I remember I did a meeting with Christian, the 00:07:48.630 --> 00:07:52.490 designer. I can't remember what year. Probably some point 00:07:53.050 --> 00:07:56.907 late 2008, early 2009, and we were discussing the last bit and, 00:07:56.990 --> 00:08:00.690 and, and said, "I think he's gotta die." And he 00:08:00.810 --> 00:08:03.927 leapt on the idea and went, "That's... Yes, yes. No, no, wait, no, it can't work. 00:08:04.010 --> 00:08:06.826 Games can't work like that. It can't work if he's dead." You know, 00:08:06.910 --> 00:08:07.967 began to think through, 00:08:08.050 --> 00:08:11.159 well, if we... Just technically it doesn't work because you have to be able to finish 00:08:11.242 --> 00:08:13.663 all the stuff up, and then began to think through, "Actually, 00:08:13.746 --> 00:08:15.487 I think we can make it work if we do it this 00:08:15.570 --> 00:08:19.390 way." And so he then really pushed for that idea, 00:08:20.010 --> 00:08:23.267 and it seemed to... I was like, "Ah," and I was still torn. I thought it 00:08:23.350 --> 00:08:28.110 was clever narratively but I was torn if it was gonna work 00:08:29.070 --> 00:08:32.167 technically as a piece of game design, but I think it did. 00:08:32.250 --> 00:08:36.167 - Yeah, and spoiler alert, of course, how do we tell the 00:08:36.250 --> 00:08:40.007 story of that? Well, so he goes through a lot. He does 00:08:40.090 --> 00:08:43.850 all the... John does all the dirty work of hunting down his old gang and he 00:08:43.970 --> 00:08:47.750 finally is able to go home and be with his family, 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:52.680 be on the ranch, and then the government betrays him and 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:59.830 sends troops to kill him. And there is dialogue. I mean, that just, 00:09:00.510 --> 00:09:07.510 I think the two times I shed a tear in video game history for me is 00:09:09.245 --> 00:09:11.070 that dialogue. 00:09:12.170 --> 00:09:13.890 I think John talking to his wife, 00:09:14.710 --> 00:09:18.607 if I vaguely remember. I think he said, "I love you." 00:09:18.690 --> 00:09:22.630 But he said very little. He didn't... He made it seem like he's going to see 00:09:22.750 --> 00:09:26.730 her and his son shortly. That dialogue was 00:09:26.910 --> 00:09:32.032 masterfully done, like a definition of like less is more. 00:09:32.116 --> 00:09:34.490 It was just so crisp, that 00:09:34.770 --> 00:09:39.710 and... And, of course, the other one is again, from memory, Arthur riding 00:09:41.230 --> 00:09:45.107 his horse and the music is playing. It's very hard not to shed 00:09:45.190 --> 00:09:50.770 a tear during that. Anyway, the dialogue of John talking to his wife 00:09:52.590 --> 00:09:55.617 at the end when he's in a barn and is about to walk out. 00:09:55.700 --> 00:09:59.887 to face certain death. Do you remember writing that? 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:02.970 - Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it just... Again, I went... 00:10:03.070 --> 00:10:07.247 The actor was so good and we've already seen a bunch of his work by then. 00:10:07.330 --> 00:10:11.127 He had such a good... He was so good at reading those lines that I knew he 00:10:11.210 --> 00:10:14.097 could give us... that you could feel at that point, like- 00:10:14.180 --> 00:10:17.877 …I think those lines are best when they're really short and punchy. So I knew— 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:20.327 - Got it. - I knew he'd be able to make that line sound good. 00:10:20.410 --> 00:10:22.747 - So you were imagining his voice. You were just- 00:10:22.830 --> 00:10:26.520 - And I think all of those actors on Red Dead 00:10:26.610 --> 00:10:30.547 Redemption One were so strong that they really brought that game to life. If 00:10:30.630 --> 00:10:34.287 them and Rod, the director, hadn't done such a good job, it would have 00:10:34.370 --> 00:10:36.007 sounded cheesy as hell. 00:10:36.090 --> 00:10:43.090 - You've said that the ending of RDR1 is one of the best things you've been a part 00:10:46.008 --> 00:10:46.207 of 00:10:46.290 --> 00:10:53.010 creating. Why is that ending so powerful to you? What does it represent? 00:10:53.110 --> 00:10:59.960 - I think because for the story to work, just from a technical 00:11:00.050 --> 00:11:02.987 challenge, for the story to work, he had to 00:11:03.070 --> 00:11:06.887 die. But for a game to work, it felt like a challenge to 00:11:06.970 --> 00:11:08.620 make him die. It was probably the 00:11:10.550 --> 00:11:14.427 fourth, fifth, or sixth open-world game I'd worked on, and 00:11:14.510 --> 00:11:18.227 I'd spent all these years before that working out how these stories worked. 00:11:18.310 --> 00:11:22.167 How to make them work technically, how to make them feel right, how they interacted 00:11:22.250 --> 00:11:25.947 with the open-form gameplay as best I could. 00:11:26.030 --> 00:11:29.847 And suddenly we're going to break one of our golden rules, which was, at the 00:11:29.930 --> 00:11:33.035 end of the game, you're freeing the character to go and wrap up all the side 00:11:33.119 --> 00:11:33.727 stories, to play 00:11:33.810 --> 00:11:36.508 forever. You're not going to be able to do that in this game because the guy's going 00:11:36.591 --> 00:11:37.687 to be dead, and we're going to have 00:11:37.770 --> 00:11:42.410 you play as a different character, and the narrative is going to 00:11:43.350 --> 00:11:45.015 be compelling enough, if we've done a good job, 00:11:45.098 --> 00:11:47.198 where you're not going to care about that. 00:11:47.350 --> 00:11:51.147 Or you're going to be upset that he's dead, but you can actually have this 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:52.890 emotional moment. 00:11:53.750 --> 00:11:57.250 So I think it was a big risk from a technical perspective for us to do that, 00:11:57.333 --> 00:12:00.533 and then it worked. So I think that was something that was very… 00:12:00.750 --> 00:12:03.787 full of fear, and it worked out okay. 00:12:03.870 --> 00:12:06.404 And I think people were really upset and angry at us for doing it because they 00:12:06.488 --> 00:12:07.807 didn't think it was going to happen, but 00:12:07.890 --> 00:12:10.394 I think they also had that kind of experience you're describing, 00:12:10.477 --> 00:12:11.667 which is that kind of creative 00:12:11.750 --> 00:12:14.734 moment where, you know, a transcendent moment with characters in a piece 00:12:14.818 --> 00:12:17.727 of fiction, which is what we've always aspired to giving people. 00:12:17.810 --> 00:12:19.740 - I mean, it's incredible because I don't think… 00:12:19.823 --> 00:12:22.527 I don't remember a single video game that has done that before. 00:12:22.610 --> 00:12:24.886 - Well, I would like to have, at the end of GTA IV, killed Niko, 00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:25.627 but you couldn't do 00:12:25.710 --> 00:12:29.647 it. You know, the game doesn't work like that. So it was this thing where we 00:12:29.730 --> 00:12:33.667 hadn't done it, thought about doing it, hadn't done it, and then going, "Let's 00:12:33.750 --> 00:12:37.890 do it. Let's take the risk and do it. We can't do it. Let's try." And it worked. 00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:42.267 - Yeah, what about the decision with the son? You know, 00:12:42.350 --> 00:12:46.230 John gives so much effort to make sure that Jack doesn't end up 00:12:46.430 --> 00:12:53.087 in a life of violence. I mean, it's very Godfather-like. It's— 00:12:53.170 --> 00:12:56.537 …he's dragged back into it through revenge. 00:12:56.620 --> 00:13:00.457 - That was also, the game still had to work as a game. Whether that was the right 00:13:00.540 --> 00:13:07.540 ending, 100% the best ending from a pure storytelling perspective, I don't know. 00:13:07.860 --> 00:13:10.477 But I know that we had to make the game work. 00:13:10.560 --> 00:13:11.197 - Oh, interesting. 00:13:11.280 --> 00:13:15.097 - So it was... I think it kind of worked in that way where Jack can't 00:13:15.180 --> 00:13:18.897 escape, but I always also wanted a version of it where Jack did 00:13:18.980 --> 00:13:22.517 escape, but that wasn't... Both were interesting to me. 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.134 - Can you just dig in a little deeper? What do you mean about for the game 00:13:25.217 --> 00:13:25.437 to work? 00:13:25.520 --> 00:13:29.860 It's such a direct... It's like Kubrick talking about for this movie to work, 00:13:30.900 --> 00:13:33.884 it has to have... From my perspective, I just think about the story. 00:13:33.968 --> 00:13:35.627 What's the technical aspect for the game to work? 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:39.337 - It's just the mechanical experience is you have an 00:13:39.420 --> 00:13:43.320 avatar you control, and you know, the games don't really end. 00:13:43.620 --> 00:13:45.957 You have to be able to wander around the world and do stuff. 00:13:46.040 --> 00:13:49.800 So at the end of the game, you have to be able to wander around with your 00:13:49.940 --> 00:13:53.490 fairly limited set of 00:13:54.040 --> 00:13:57.917 features, which is you can run up to someone and punch them or shoot them or 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.720 rob them, or talk to them. And that's 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.037 kind of... or jump on a horse or do all this other 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.720 stuff. In order for the game still to be fun and people to get this full 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:12.857 360-degree experience with it, they had to, if they 00:14:12.940 --> 00:14:16.697 wanted to 100% the game as opposed to just finishing the story, you have to have an 00:14:16.780 --> 00:14:22.097 avatar to do that stuff with. So that was the sort of challenge of Jack's 00:14:22.180 --> 00:14:25.017 character, wrapping up the story as Jack. 00:14:25.100 --> 00:14:31.617 - Oh, there's real power for the avatar to end, the finiteness. 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:35.097 - Yeah. Both the Red Deads, you obviously change avatars. 00:14:35.180 --> 00:14:38.887 Which we did, and then did it again. I think there's something interesting about 00:14:38.970 --> 00:14:41.022 that moment when you change from one character to another, 00:14:41.106 --> 00:14:42.377 because they are you and they're not 00:14:42.460 --> 00:14:44.917 you, you know, and then suddenly you're someone else. 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:48.297 - Mm-hmm. I mean, I was really shaken by that 00:14:48.380 --> 00:14:52.057 experience, but it's a beautiful experience. It's like an unforgettable 00:14:52.140 --> 00:14:55.497 experience. What else can video games possibly reach 00:14:55.580 --> 00:14:59.397 for? You know, to create that experience, 00:14:59.480 --> 00:15:02.637 that's what great films do, that's what great, great books do. 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:05.101 - It's that. I mean, it's that and the world building in games. 00:15:05.184 --> 00:15:06.657 I think the experience of being in this 00:15:06.740 --> 00:15:10.117 fake place and then taking on these narrative 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.700 adventures, when that combines, you've got the amazing experience. 00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:17.390 - So who do you think is the best character you've ever created in RDR? 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.750 So to me, I think definitively Arthur from Red Dead Redemption 00:15:22.100 --> 00:15:27.000 2 is the best character ever created in video games ever. 00:15:28.860 --> 00:15:28.900 - Thank you. 00:15:28.880 --> 00:15:32.677 - I think there's not even close. I mean, John will be the se-, which is hilarious 00:15:32.760 --> 00:15:38.935 to say, but those are... John will be a close second, but Arthur is definitively. 00:15:39.018 --> 00:15:44.400 And you've talked about in that interview, you said that a lot of video games 00:15:45.420 --> 00:15:49.257 work on the same premise, that you start as a weak person and 00:15:49.340 --> 00:15:53.197 end up as a strong superhero. But what if you start as a 00:15:53.280 --> 00:15:56.877 tough guy, someone who already is very strong, someone that's 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.897 emotionally confident of his place in the world? Arthur's journey is not about 00:16:00.980 --> 00:16:04.957 becoming a superhero because he's almost one at the start, but 00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:08.877 it's about an intellectual rollercoaster when his worldview gets 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:15.960 taken apart. So it's very different than the normal journey of a character. 00:16:17.160 --> 00:16:20.517 - Yeah, in a game... - In a game -... in order to reverse it. 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:22.989 So there were a couple other themes that matched that. 00:16:23.072 --> 00:16:27.177 So they're guys from the Wild West, but they're being pushed ever further east. 00:16:27.260 --> 00:16:28.827 So it's almost like an anti-Western. 00:16:28.910 --> 00:16:32.877 An Eastern. You're traveling east. You're traveling into civilization. And I 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:39.960 don't think I would've been grappling with those ideas earlier in my career, 00:16:40.860 --> 00:16:44.517 'cause it was so, you know, this idea of getting a different kind of 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:46.517 strength and different kind of weakness was interesting. 00:16:46.600 --> 00:16:50.182 - What about the component of mortality, of a character facing his own mortality 00:16:50.265 --> 00:16:54.580 over a prolonged period? Sort of just the, the, the, the 00:16:54.760 --> 00:17:01.057 prospect of like, real sort of fear of death, realization of death. 00:17:01.140 --> 00:17:02.637 - Yeah. I thought that was really- - as part of the story. 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.420 - really a fun thing to play with. John dies in Red Dead 1, 00:17:08.320 --> 00:17:12.097 I wanted to top that with Red Dead 2, or do that in a 00:17:12.180 --> 00:17:15.977 different way. And so the idea that John's death is fairly sudden, and 00:17:16.060 --> 00:17:18.957 so if he's got this long, drawn-out death, then I'd always 00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:24.597 been obsessed by TB. As diseases go, it's a great literary device. 00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:26.802 You know, 'cause it is this long, drawn-out, slow death, 00:17:26.885 --> 00:17:28.457 but in which you are also getting weaker. 00:17:28.540 --> 00:17:31.917 And my grandfather actually had TB before they invented 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.577 antibiotics and was sent to a sanatorium just after he 00:17:35.660 --> 00:17:39.557 was... just after he'd had his child, my father, 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:43.840 and survived, but only three of them out of like 35 survived. So I was always, 00:17:44.820 --> 00:17:48.500 captivated by TB as an illness. It 00:17:48.660 --> 00:17:52.300 felt like it was an interesting thing to play around with 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:56.420 as an idea, this guy getting weaker who felt like he was immortal 00:17:56.620 --> 00:17:59.481 and essentially was immortal. He was the protagonist in a video game, 00:17:59.564 --> 00:18:04.237 he could not die, and suddenly he is becoming mortal. You know, but that 00:18:04.320 --> 00:18:08.297 helps him see stuff. I thought that was a different way of doing a lead 00:18:08.380 --> 00:18:09.817 character in a game. 00:18:09.900 --> 00:18:13.620 - Yeah. Do you think it's the greatest character you've ever created? 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:14.940 - I think he's the best 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.099 lead character. You know, the lead characters are different from the side 00:18:19.182 --> 00:18:20.016 characters, 00:18:20.180 --> 00:18:27.180 and I think he's the most rounded and works the best. I kind of... 00:18:27.480 --> 00:18:33.487 Him and Nico are the two I like, you know. They were the two most ambitious. 00:18:33.570 --> 00:18:37.277 So for me, it's always sort of a toss-up, you know? But then I 00:18:37.360 --> 00:18:41.017 loved all the stuff, like the art team did such an 00:18:41.100 --> 00:18:44.807 amazing job. It was their idea with the journal and that kind of... 00:18:44.890 --> 00:18:48.677 The way that all the features worked into Arthur's character, I thought that 00:18:48.760 --> 00:18:52.354 was really... He was really rounded, he worked in lots of different ways really 00:18:52.437 --> 00:18:55.767 well. I loved his flawed relationship with his old 00:18:55.850 --> 00:18:58.148 girlfriend, things like that. All the side... You know, 00:18:58.231 --> 00:19:00.607 the bits that turned up around him. 00:19:00.690 --> 00:19:04.837 - So you also like the side characters. You like the flavor - Yeah, of course. 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.327 - of the full cast. What are some of the favorites you've created? 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:10.527 I'm sure the one you're currently working on- 00:19:10.610 --> 00:19:13.347 Nigel, that's a... You called him a side character. 00:19:13.430 --> 00:19:17.407 - Well, he's not a protagonist. He's like a god, not a character. 00:19:17.490 --> 00:19:22.687 So he's not... Him, I'm enjoying. I love Dutch. 00:19:22.770 --> 00:19:27.070 You know, it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him 00:19:28.090 --> 00:19:31.490 for the first game, and the actor did such a 00:19:31.590 --> 00:19:35.507 such an amazing job that when he spoke, it just came to me 00:19:35.590 --> 00:19:38.659 all of their backstory, which I'd been playing around with by that point anyway 00:19:38.742 --> 00:19:41.543 a little bit in my head. But I knew it was his bigger gangster from then. 00:19:41.627 --> 00:19:42.727 I sort of saw exactly who he 00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:47.907 was. And so that was... That felt like... He felt like a living character to me. 00:19:47.990 --> 00:19:50.672 - And we should say that Dutch is kind of like, 00:19:50.755 --> 00:19:52.987 maybe a little bit of a godlike figure- 00:19:53.070 --> 00:19:56.967 in both of the Red Dead Redemption games. He's the leader of the gang. 00:19:57.050 --> 00:20:00.920 And there's a father-son relationship with Dutch, with, uh, 00:20:01.570 --> 00:20:05.500 I mean, with Arthur, with John. There's a family feeling to the 00:20:05.590 --> 00:20:09.487 gang. They explore all of those dynamics, and then the feeling of 00:20:09.570 --> 00:20:12.847 betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis. 00:20:12.930 --> 00:20:15.477 You're going against the family, going against the father- 00:20:15.560 --> 00:20:19.287 because he is transforming his sense of the 00:20:19.370 --> 00:20:22.307 world, of morality, of all those kinds of things. So all the kind of very 00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:26.180 Shakespearean drama is right there. And Dutch is 00:20:27.010 --> 00:20:30.470 a prominent godlike figure through all of that. Also 00:20:30.610 --> 00:20:35.310 flawed himself. Also a man of good and evil in that, 00:20:36.250 --> 00:20:37.977 framework that they're operating under. 00:20:38.060 --> 00:20:40.747 - And he's just drowning in his ego at the end. 00:20:40.830 --> 00:20:44.147 You know, his ego gets the better of him. I think he's a... But there was 00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:50.607 something flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger, and that's 00:20:50.690 --> 00:20:53.770 mostly off-camera. And then just so you know, always been 00:20:54.630 --> 00:20:58.627 as an individual, I've always been very susceptible to charming people. 00:20:58.710 --> 00:21:02.627 And he's charming. So I was kind of... I can see how people get captivated. 00:21:02.710 --> 00:21:06.640 by charming people. And the idea here was a very charming person, 00:21:07.210 --> 00:21:08.947 and the road's run out for him. 00:21:09.030 --> 00:21:13.530 - I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings, 00:21:14.510 --> 00:21:18.707 and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma. 00:21:18.790 --> 00:21:21.727 'Cause it can cloud your judgment about human nature. 00:21:21.810 --> 00:21:25.690 - Completely. And that's what's happened with him. And it ended up 00:21:25.990 --> 00:21:30.770 clouding his judgment about himself. He kind of fell for his own rubbish. 00:21:30.950 --> 00:21:34.187 - Yeah, but also it clouded Arthur's judgment. 00:21:34.270 --> 00:21:38.107 - Oh, completely. Arthur was completely, you know, platonically in 00:21:38.190 --> 00:21:40.998 love with him. He was worshiping him. He'd given up his power to him. 00:21:41.082 --> 00:21:45.387 And then I think for Arthur, the journey is retaking that 00:21:45.470 --> 00:21:49.367 power in the moment of dying. You know, and that's what the whole... that's why 00:21:49.450 --> 00:21:50.927 I thought that was really interesting. 00:21:51.010 --> 00:21:54.050 - Yeah, it's truly tragic for Arthur to be 00:21:55.250 --> 00:21:58.930 losing his identity, lifelong identity, and 00:21:59.090 --> 00:22:02.067 sense of belonging, and losing his life at the same 00:22:02.150 --> 00:22:09.150 time. In facing mortality, he is realizing that he's not all of it has been a lie. 00:22:11.370 --> 00:22:14.247 - But he gets to do some... Well, it depends on what choices you make. 00:22:14.330 --> 00:22:20.047 But he gets to do some good. And so he gets his moment of redemption. 00:22:20.130 --> 00:22:21.557 - Just a little bit. But realizing... 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:27.627 your whole life you've been living not a good life. You've been not a good man. 00:22:27.710 --> 00:22:28.987 - Isn't that what we're all afraid of? 00:22:29.070 --> 00:22:32.470 - I guess it's never too late to change your ways. 00:22:32.630 --> 00:22:32.797 - Hope not. I mean, that's... 00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:39.147 - So, the biggest, most important, primary question, central to the 00:22:39.230 --> 00:22:43.067 reason we're talking today, the number one question from the 00:22:43.150 --> 00:22:49.330 Internet, it is so ridiculous, but I must ask. Have you seen Gavin? 00:22:50.750 --> 00:22:54.427 Who is Gavin? So, for more context, there's a guy named Nigel in Red Dead 00:22:54.510 --> 00:22:58.307 Redemption 2 who's frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin 00:22:58.390 --> 00:23:02.040 throughout the game. This has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst 00:23:02.570 --> 00:23:06.467 the interwebs, the RDR fan base. So, the theories 00:23:06.550 --> 00:23:10.510 include, theory one is it's a split personality disorder. Nigel 00:23:10.850 --> 00:23:17.850 himself is Gavin. So, the evidence for this theory is the letter that has some 00:23:18.410 --> 00:23:21.847 evidence that may be due to trauma, this split 00:23:21.930 --> 00:23:25.627 personality disorder was created. This Gavin was created inside Nigel's 00:23:25.710 --> 00:23:29.167 mind. Theory two is Gavin is dead, and Nigel's simply in denial. 00:23:29.250 --> 00:23:33.167 Theory three is that it's 00:23:33.250 --> 00:23:37.087 just a troll, and Rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:40.540 to drive players crazy. I also heard theory four is 00:23:40.770 --> 00:23:44.287 Gavin is the Strange Man. So, there's this 00:23:44.370 --> 00:23:48.127 fascinating character, the Strange Man, this supernatural character that has a 00:23:48.210 --> 00:23:55.210 presence in RDR1 and a little bit in RDR2 also. But yeah. So which theory 00:23:56.230 --> 00:24:02.247 is closest to the truth? - Not three or four. In my mind, somewhere 00:24:02.330 --> 00:24:06.167 between one and two. I just loved the way he 00:24:06.250 --> 00:24:10.027 shouted, "Gavin." It just amused me. So at some level, it 00:24:10.110 --> 00:24:13.907 probably is trolling in that we didn't want it to be a totally clear mystery. 00:24:13.990 --> 00:24:17.730 You wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it. 00:24:19.030 --> 00:24:22.087 but it was meant to be... Without ever fully being 00:24:22.170 --> 00:24:25.807 explained that Gavin's not there anymore. Gavin's either gone 00:24:25.890 --> 00:24:29.687 home, Gavin's left him, Gavin's... And we were going to keep 00:24:29.770 --> 00:24:34.057 exploring that idea. That he was going to reappear in some way or other. 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:41.140 - Did you have any idea how much imagination, excitement, and curiosity 00:24:42.110 --> 00:24:44.590 that little interaction would inspire in people? 00:24:45.070 --> 00:24:48.950 - Yes and no. You could never know what people are going to find amusing 00:24:49.310 --> 00:24:52.046 in these big games, and a lot of it comes down to acting as well. 00:24:52.129 --> 00:24:55.187 The guy was just funny when he said "Gavin." It was just funny. 00:24:55.270 --> 00:24:59.087 You know? But there was a ped in Red Dead Redemption one that everyone was obsessed 00:24:59.170 --> 00:25:02.770 by, and I really wasn't expecting that. So we try to put a few 00:25:02.870 --> 00:25:06.667 characters in. I mean, Gavin was supposed to be amusing. I thought he was amusing. 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:09.443 But you never know what people are going to get obsessed by. 00:25:09.527 --> 00:25:10.747 There are other characters 00:25:10.830 --> 00:25:13.293 I think are funny, and people don't even notice them, you know, 00:25:13.377 --> 00:25:15.367 or they see them in a completely different way. 00:25:15.450 --> 00:25:17.467 - Did you have a part in writing the letter? 00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:21.207 - Yeah. I can't remember if I wrote it or... Either I wrote it or Mike 00:25:21.290 --> 00:25:23.793 wrote it, or we both wrote it. I really can't remember, to be honest with you. 00:25:23.877 --> 00:25:25.147 But yeah, I certainly would have edited 00:25:25.230 --> 00:25:27.826 it, and Mike might have written it, or I might have written it. 00:25:27.909 --> 00:25:28.867 I really can't remember. 00:25:28.950 --> 00:25:31.690 - It's so fascinating because that little piece of writing— of course, 00:25:31.773 --> 00:25:33.417 you have thousands of pages- - Yeah. 00:25:33.500 --> 00:25:36.507 -...but that little piece of writing gets analyzed. 00:25:36.590 --> 00:25:40.467 - Oh, but we certainly talked about it in depth, and if Mike was here, 00:25:40.550 --> 00:25:42.675 I'd ask him. He might remember. I can't really... 00:25:42.758 --> 00:25:44.387 And we do so many of those things. 00:25:44.470 --> 00:25:48.107 And I loved the use of letters in Red Dead to tell all these weird 00:25:48.190 --> 00:25:52.127 backstories. And some became very clear and some were still 00:25:52.210 --> 00:25:56.107 a little kind of opaque. But I think the general vibe was there was no 00:25:56.190 --> 00:26:00.087 Gavin. Either there was no Gavin or he'd long since left. So it's kind 00:26:00.170 --> 00:26:03.687 of a split personality, you know, and then we were going to over subsequent 00:26:03.770 --> 00:26:05.537 games provide more information. 00:26:05.620 --> 00:26:09.547 - So in some sense, you yourself don't quite know. You kind of have 00:26:09.630 --> 00:26:13.460 an idea, like which way do you lean more, theory 00:26:13.610 --> 00:26:16.587 one or two? Is he dead, and Nigel's in 00:26:16.670 --> 00:26:21.227 denial, or is there real communication going inside his head? 00:26:21.310 --> 00:26:23.166 - No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 00:26:23.249 --> 00:26:25.127 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:27.087 No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 00:26:27.170 --> 00:26:29.087 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 00:26:29.170 --> 00:26:33.007 were we going to reveal that Gavin was dead, or was Gavin going to turn up having 00:26:33.090 --> 00:26:36.627 long since abandoned this maniac. That was what we were still playing around 00:26:36.710 --> 00:26:39.207 with. I think the idea was that he was never going to meet... 00:26:39.290 --> 00:26:43.870 He was never going to meet Gavin in this game. 00:26:44.010 --> 00:26:47.707 - I mean, it's just fascinating because you have to think about all of that. 00:26:47.790 --> 00:26:50.238 You have to write all of that. You have to have those discussions. 00:26:50.321 --> 00:26:51.747 You have to have those debates. 00:26:51.830 --> 00:26:53.367 - And it has to feel fresh. 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:57.327 Like, what we've done before. Constantly looking as you do. You know, I 00:26:57.410 --> 00:27:00.571 think I've done, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games. 00:27:00.655 --> 00:27:03.987 Got to do stuff that's new. It can't repeat itself too much. 00:27:04.070 --> 00:27:07.887 - I mean, we also live in the age of the internet. Just, like, you 00:27:07.970 --> 00:27:14.770 realize there are millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is. 00:27:15.590 --> 00:27:17.057 - Thank God. - It's like- - It's great, yeah. 00:27:17.140 --> 00:27:20.927 - It's fascinating that they're having... Is, think about people reading, like, 00:27:21.010 --> 00:27:24.607 James Joyce or something and thinking about the character, like, breaking apart 00:27:24.690 --> 00:27:28.287 Ulysses and thinking about, like, arguing about 00:27:28.370 --> 00:27:32.987 different interpretations of it. And to me, that in itself is also beautiful. 00:27:33.070 --> 00:27:36.927 - Yeah. We want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point, but you still 00:27:37.010 --> 00:27:38.947 want these discussions. - Yeah, the mystery. 00:27:39.030 --> 00:27:42.927 - You know, and you want as long as it feels tonally appropriate for 00:27:43.010 --> 00:27:46.047 this whole big sort of shaggy dog story experience you're 00:27:46.130 --> 00:27:50.050 making. Which Gavin was just about, and he was so weird, and he just 00:27:50.150 --> 00:27:53.190 was intrinsically... there was just something funny about an English person 00:27:53.274 --> 00:27:55.507 screaming, "Gavin." I don't know why. 00:27:55.590 --> 00:27:59.407 - Yeah. Some of that humor, there's... there's certain in Red Dead 00:27:59.490 --> 00:28:02.397 Redemption there's humor, but there's a lot of it in Grand Theft Auto- 00:28:02.480 --> 00:28:05.130 ...and what... It's hard to put into words. 00:28:06.330 --> 00:28:09.710 why that's funny, why it becomes a meme, why it becomes viral, 00:28:10.230 --> 00:28:11.727 'cause it's just funny. 00:28:11.810 --> 00:28:14.449 - Yeah, I know why I think it's funny, but you... what you can't... 00:28:14.532 --> 00:28:15.667 What I'm not good at doing at 00:28:15.750 --> 00:28:19.567 least is going, "This thing will become really popular online and 00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:24.747 this other thing won't." You can create this bunch of, you know, fifty different 00:28:24.830 --> 00:28:27.215 side things that people might get captivated by, 00:28:27.299 --> 00:28:29.677 and you just do not know what they're going to respond to. 00:28:29.760 --> 00:28:32.627 - How do you know when something's funny? Is it... you just feel it? 00:28:32.710 --> 00:28:34.617 - I know what I think is funny. It's, you know, it makes- 00:28:34.700 --> 00:28:36.707 - You just Google it or you just- -...like just 'cause it's ridiculous as well. 00:28:36.790 --> 00:28:41.247 That was just... There's nothing funny about a dude shouting, "Gavin," a lot. 00:28:41.330 --> 00:28:43.277 He just said it in a funny way... I just thought it might be funny- 00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:45.767 It was great... and he just said it in such a funny way- 00:28:45.850 --> 00:28:49.600 ...and then it just became funny. Like, we often have those side characters 00:28:49.790 --> 00:28:52.418 and they're not that funny, and I think they're going to be hysterical, 00:28:52.501 --> 00:28:55.537 and then you put them in the game, and they're fine, but they're not amazing. 00:28:55.620 --> 00:28:57.267 That guy just brought that stuff to life. 00:28:57.350 --> 00:29:01.357 - Yeah. And his backstory too. I mean, Londoner and not... yeah, that... 00:29:01.440 --> 00:29:03.441 - Yeah, I think that was what... you know, just that it... 00:29:03.525 --> 00:29:05.547 there's something sometimes fun, you know, in... 00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:09.267 an English person saying the name Gavin is quite funny. I don't know why. 00:29:09.350 --> 00:29:13.047 - So, about the Strange Man, AKA, the Man in Black... Is there some 00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:16.121 element with Michael and the therapist in Grand Theft Auto V? Like, 00:29:16.204 --> 00:29:21.867 who is the Strange Man? - Well, the Strange Man was again... was, was, was 00:29:21.950 --> 00:29:25.670 someone we came up with quickly. It... we made Red Dead 1, 00:29:26.270 --> 00:29:30.167 and we... well, were making Red Dead 1, and 00:29:30.250 --> 00:29:34.127 we'd made this... we felt quite compelling story and quite 00:29:34.210 --> 00:29:38.047 interesting open world. But... and we'd already made a bunch of 00:29:38.130 --> 00:29:40.106 Grand Theft Autos, obviously, but unfortunately, 00:29:40.189 --> 00:29:42.067 we'd taken out the machine guns 'cause it was 00:29:42.150 --> 00:29:45.407 a cowboy game, apart from the big fixed position ones. And we'd taken out the 00:29:45.490 --> 00:29:49.107 cars, and we'd taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians. So we 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:51.457 essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse... 00:29:51.540 --> 00:29:55.367 ...around the desert. And it was quite... and it was quite boring. 00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:58.807 And so we then started filling it with content, and we filled it with these... 00:29:58.890 --> 00:30:02.236 and having to improvise. And we filled it with these things we call random events 00:30:02.320 --> 00:30:02.947 that would be 00:30:03.030 --> 00:30:06.807 these sort of motion-capture moments that you could interact with. And it... 00:30:06.890 --> 00:30:09.725 they were, they were... the designers did an amazing job with those. 00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:10.707 They were really fun. 00:30:10.790 --> 00:30:13.780 But there was not enough of them. And then we felt we needed more story 'cause 00:30:13.864 --> 00:30:18.170 the story was perhaps a little short. So we kind of quite late in development 00:30:19.130 --> 00:30:22.547 started putting in almost like these RPG-type content where you go and meet 00:30:22.630 --> 00:30:25.370 someone. And the way we thought of them was they were like short stories. 00:30:25.454 --> 00:30:30.127 So you go and meet someone, they'd set you a slow problem, like go and collect me 15 00:30:30.210 --> 00:30:34.907 bunches of flowers. And when you came back, it would resolve your story. 00:30:34.990 --> 00:30:37.094 And so then, you know, one would go, "Go get them for my bride," 00:30:37.177 --> 00:30:38.467 and you come back and the bride's dead. 00:30:38.550 --> 00:30:42.107 You know, to... We tried to make them like these short stories with a sting in the 00:30:42.190 --> 00:30:43.630 tail. And 00:30:45.130 --> 00:30:49.057 he came out... as I was trying to come up with ideas for those, as just this 00:30:49.140 --> 00:30:52.597 weird character. And then we built him a bit into the story, 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.897 where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a 00:30:55.980 --> 00:31:00.420 commentary on what you were doing. So he was meant to be a kind of 00:31:02.080 --> 00:31:04.120 manifestation of your, 00:31:05.660 --> 00:31:09.557 you know, shadow, your karma, the devil, somewhere, you know, just 00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:14.220 saw the world. And then we built out his backstory over time 00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:16.713 and decided, you know... And so in Red Dead 2, 00:31:16.797 --> 00:31:18.077 you could interact with him again and... 00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:20.997 or not really interact with him. But he was there and he was meant to be, 00:31:21.080 --> 00:31:25.797 you know, something I suppose any creative is scared of, an artist who's kind of 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:29.737 sold his soul to the devil. And that slowly revealed itself. 00:31:29.820 --> 00:31:33.097 - There is a connection between the main character and 00:31:33.180 --> 00:31:36.357 the... Is it like a Jungian shadow type of situation? 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:40.357 - Well, it's sort of, because he knows what you're up to. The connection is... 00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:44.237 what's never really made clear is, does he know this about everybody? 00:31:44.320 --> 00:31:48.057 Like, is he following you, or is he able, because of the pact he's made 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:51.937 with evil forces, able to do this for everybody? I don't think we 00:31:52.020 --> 00:31:55.217 necessarily ever clarify that. He's certainly able to do it for you. 00:31:55.300 --> 00:32:00.780 - I mean, there's, sort of narrative-wise, there are techniques to reveal a kind of 00:32:01.860 --> 00:32:05.797 self-reflection analysis of the main character's thoughts. That's why I 00:32:05.880 --> 00:32:09.537 brought up the therapist with Michael. That was a really powerful, 00:32:09.620 --> 00:32:13.497 interesting thing to do in a video game. Like, I, I 00:32:13.580 --> 00:32:17.457 don't think I've seen... That's such a cool... I mean, there's a Sopranos element 00:32:17.540 --> 00:32:18.937 there, with the therapist. - A little bit, yeah. 00:32:19.020 --> 00:32:23.420 - I really love an opportunity for a character to just 00:32:24.260 --> 00:32:25.887 self-reflect through that technique. 00:32:25.970 --> 00:32:27.937 - But it also changed depending on what you'd done. 00:32:28.020 --> 00:32:28.197 - Yes. 00:32:28.280 --> 00:32:32.037 - So it was, it was sort of slightly... It wasn't as interactive as it could be, 00:32:32.120 --> 00:32:35.857 but it was slightly interactive, or slightly responsive to what you'd done. 00:32:35.940 --> 00:32:39.156 So it felt it was still valid video game content, 'cause it was living, 00:32:39.239 --> 00:32:39.917 up to a point. 00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:42.749 And I just thought the character, Dr. Friedlander, was just funny, 00:32:42.832 --> 00:32:43.617 'cause he was awful. 00:32:43.700 --> 00:32:47.617 So it was like LA. You're in therapy. It's very LA. But it's also very LA, he 00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:49.377 wants to write a book and betray you. 00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:53.337 Which felt like a good, a good twist. It felt like a Grand Theft Auto 00:32:53.420 --> 00:32:59.977 therapist. But just like the idea of making the player in a game, 00:33:00.060 --> 00:33:03.997 and games are intrinsically kind of physical, and, you know, you... 00:33:04.080 --> 00:33:07.447 you walk, you punch things, you run around, you drive cars, you shoot people, 00:33:07.530 --> 00:33:11.297 whatever. There are these kind of physical fantasies. Trying to put them into a 00:33:11.380 --> 00:33:14.837 slightly more reflective or metaphysical state for a moment, I think can be really 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:18.702 fun. - I think, to me, one of the most surprising things about Red Dead 00:33:18.786 --> 00:33:23.497 Redemption, about video games, that Red Dead Redemption showed is how much 00:33:23.580 --> 00:33:30.177 value for storytelling is insanely specific, intricate details. 00:33:30.260 --> 00:33:37.260 In the story, but also visually. It just added to the feeling that the world is 00:33:37.840 --> 00:33:41.900 real. So I have to ask, what are some of your, um, 00:33:43.240 --> 00:33:46.697 favorite insanely specific, intricate details in RDR? I can give you some 00:33:46.780 --> 00:33:50.377 options. The internet's favorite is horse testicles shrinking in cold weather. 00:33:50.460 --> 00:33:52.897 testicles shrinking in cold weather. 00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:55.897 - Yep. Those guys did an amazing job on those. 00:33:55.980 --> 00:33:58.328 - I mean, I just... And there must've been a meeting, 00:33:58.412 --> 00:34:00.012 and there must've been engineers 00:34:01.060 --> 00:34:03.777 and graphics designers. - It was just, I think just artists. 00:34:03.860 --> 00:34:07.360 - Artists - Modelers, I think. I don't think it was that hard. 00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:09.480 - Okay. - Enough of that pun. 00:34:09.600 --> 00:34:15.597 - Thank you for that. Arthur's hair and beard grow in real time. 00:34:15.680 --> 00:34:19.217 So, gun maintenance matters. Firearms get dirty and perform worse over 00:34:19.300 --> 00:34:23.497 time. Animal carcasses decompose realistically. 00:34:23.580 --> 00:34:24.717 - They feel like they do. 00:34:24.800 --> 00:34:28.157 - That's still extremely rare in video games. That, the temporal aspect. 00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:32.417 - Yes. Yeah. - That permeates through time. You know, NPCs remembering you. 00:34:32.500 --> 00:34:33.333 - That's 00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:37.690 the best. I mean, that's the thing I love. Playing around with a lot of stuff 00:34:37.780 --> 00:34:41.097 in the new games around that, 'cause I think it's super interesting. Okay? 00:34:41.180 --> 00:34:41.617 - It's really powerful, right? 00:34:41.700 --> 00:34:45.037 - To make them... Yeah, really interesting. I think it just gives a... 00:34:45.120 --> 00:34:48.900 it's a really fun way of giving you kind of narrative content 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:51.700 that is also systemic and procedural. 00:34:51.800 --> 00:34:55.617 - Yeah. Is it technically really difficult to do for the 00:34:55.700 --> 00:34:58.937 game, for the game to feel like it remembers you? You know? 00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:02.960 - Um, I think with modern tech it's not that hard, but there's a 00:35:03.120 --> 00:35:05.637 lot of stuff you need to track to make it interesting. 00:35:05.720 --> 00:35:07.337 - Yeah, to have a memory. 00:35:07.420 --> 00:35:11.360 So that's really powerful. The mud physics. So Arthur's boots get 00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:15.037 muddy and leave actual tracks. I mean, that's just incredible. Really, really 00:35:15.120 --> 00:35:15.857 incredible. 00:35:15.940 --> 00:35:19.023 - You know, we made a dusty game. Red Dead 1 is a super dusty game. Make, 00:35:19.106 --> 00:35:20.406 you know, the problem with 00:35:22.040 --> 00:35:25.877 cowboys is that if you've tried to make a Greatest Hits of the Cowboy game, and 00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:28.617 then you've got to make a sequel, you've got to come up with different geography. 00:35:28.700 --> 00:35:32.477 So that's why the game starts in the snow. So we wanted a game that had snow and mud, 00:35:32.560 --> 00:35:34.815 because those were things you hadn't really seen in Red Dead 1. 00:35:34.898 --> 00:35:36.437 And then the challenge is how do you make 00:35:36.520 --> 00:35:40.077 mud good in a game? And the guys did an amazing job. 00:35:40.160 --> 00:35:43.540 - I mean, the snowstorm that starts the game, 00:35:43.660 --> 00:35:47.577 RDR2, I don't remember the last time I've experienced anything 00:35:47.660 --> 00:35:51.537 like it, but you felt it. I don't know how the hell you do that. It's not just 00:35:51.620 --> 00:35:55.337 graphics, it's everything. Everything together. I suppose some of the 00:35:55.420 --> 00:35:57.017 dialogue is really important to that. 00:35:57.100 --> 00:35:58.297 - Also the acting. They feel cold. 00:35:58.380 --> 00:35:59.317 - Yeah, that's right. 00:35:59.400 --> 00:36:02.227 - And they feel desperate. There was that feeling of sort of - Yes 00:36:02.310 --> 00:36:04.630 - exodus. Like you're running away from something, 00:36:04.714 --> 00:36:06.797 that gives the game energy at the start. 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:08.727 - And it was at night. Oh man, it was just masterfully done. 00:36:08.810 --> 00:36:10.447 - And there was a big group of them. The other cont- - Yes. 00:36:10.530 --> 00:36:12.213 - You know, first game, you start off as a lone wolf. 00:36:12.297 --> 00:36:13.377 Suddenly you're in this big group. 00:36:13.460 --> 00:36:15.330 So it felt very different. 00:36:15.420 --> 00:36:19.617 - In Arthur's body, bullet wounds persist. So that, that temporal consistency- 00:36:19.700 --> 00:36:23.180 ...that's really important. Underweight Arthur looks gone, and 00:36:23.540 --> 00:36:25.420 overweight Arthur gets a gut. 00:36:26.340 --> 00:36:30.280 And a fuller face. Again, those decisions that you make 00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:35.200 reveal themselves in the game across time. And they're consistent. 00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:39.577 I don't know. I did not see many games do that. It must be difficult to 00:36:39.660 --> 00:36:43.517 do, but to give that level of care to the details in 00:36:43.600 --> 00:36:47.020 that way across time and for specific 00:36:47.300 --> 00:36:50.097 graphical representations of things is incredible. 00:36:50.180 --> 00:36:50.927 - Yeah. I mean, I guess- 00:36:51.010 --> 00:36:56.140 - Do you have favorites where you were first like, "This is amazing?" 00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:58.335 - I think all of it. I think the way the whole... To me, 00:36:58.419 --> 00:37:00.137 the thing that I would care about most 00:37:00.220 --> 00:37:03.337 was the way the whole thing sat together. You know, the fact that each of 00:37:03.420 --> 00:37:07.277 those, they all feel like they belong together with each 00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:11.077 other. You made this cohesive, very, you know, 00:37:11.160 --> 00:37:15.037 quote-unquote, "realistic" for a video game experience, and all the details 00:37:15.120 --> 00:37:18.540 feel like they mesh. - Well, for me, everything about the horse. 00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:22.130 For a lot of people. Testicle shrinking included.