1 00:00:02,930 --> 00:00:03,207 more interesting, more creatively, you know, diverse. 2 00:00:03,290 --> 00:00:05,721 - You said that Red Dead Redemption 2, in your opinion, 3 00:00:05,804 --> 00:00:07,087 is the best thing you've ever 4 00:00:07,170 --> 00:00:10,687 done. I think there's a strong case to be made that it's the greatest game of all 5 00:00:10,770 --> 00:00:15,837 time. What are the elements that make that game truly great, do you think? 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,787 - I think you had an incredibly strong team working together that was 7 00:00:19,870 --> 00:00:26,390 very experienced that had basically been in place since somewhere between 2001 and 8 00:00:26,490 --> 00:00:30,207 2006. So it was a long, experienced team. I think we got to 9 00:00:30,290 --> 00:00:34,207 spend a smaller group of us working on it from day one, 10 00:00:34,290 --> 00:00:38,097 coming up with some wacky ideas that we 11 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:41,717 got to embed in the game. And then we kind had to follow through 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,497 with. But I think it was helpful that we got to be very creative before it 13 00:00:45,580 --> 00:00:52,580 had a full team on it. I think that the cowboy setting is great because it 14 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:57,267 gives a sort of mythic seriousness that sometimes doing stuff in 15 00:00:57,350 --> 00:00:59,310 a contemporary setting doesn't allow. You know, 16 00:00:59,394 --> 00:01:01,177 I think the closest we got to that kind of 17 00:01:01,260 --> 00:01:02,879 seriousness was GTA IV, but it just can't... 18 00:01:02,962 --> 00:01:05,037 Once you're setting things in the modern world, they're 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:10,617 too frenetic. You can't get some of that slightly, you know, operatic feel that I 20 00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:14,557 love. That some people think is maybe a little over the top, but I, you know, I 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:18,177 love this kind of, you know, people searching for meaning— 22 00:01:18,260 --> 00:01:21,977 ...within, amongst the violence. I think that the West and all of the themes 23 00:01:22,060 --> 00:01:24,933 around the West really lend themselves to that. So I think that, 24 00:01:25,016 --> 00:01:25,917 and then the gunplay 25 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,857 was fantastic, and the horses were incredible. So I think you had this 26 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:32,326 combination of technical know-how, a very, very strong team, 27 00:01:32,409 --> 00:01:36,617 and really strong material. very, very strong team, and really strong material. 28 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:40,160 - Where did you have to go in your mind, maybe philosophically, maybe 29 00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:44,077 spiritually, to be able to create the RDR world? Of course, it was 30 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,077 based on Red Dead Revolver, but that's— - Yes 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,880 - —that's a fundamentally different. I mean, that leap 32 00:01:50,980 --> 00:01:56,727 into the great mythic story that was Red Dead Redemption one. 33 00:01:56,810 --> 00:02:00,910 And then even more so, Red Dead Redemption two. That was unlike anything 34 00:02:02,060 --> 00:02:06,657 you, or maybe anyone, has ever created in video games. 35 00:02:06,740 --> 00:02:09,620 - Thank you. - So, like, what drugs were involved? 36 00:02:10,220 --> 00:02:13,417 - No drugs. - Okay. - No. Stopped the drugs long before. 37 00:02:13,500 --> 00:02:17,854 - Okay. - That's why I did all that work. Had nothing else to do. So yeah, 38 00:02:17,937 --> 00:02:22,517 open world video games were very good for my mental health in that way. Kept me 39 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,437 busy. But Red, so Red— 40 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:30,897 Dead, I'll tell, I'll give you my version. Now the games are made by big teams. 41 00:02:30,980 --> 00:02:34,917 So, but I will give you my human interest version of the story from 42 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,617 my perspective only. We made Red Dead Revolver, 43 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:41,795 decided that, or finished Red Dead Revolver that had been a Capcom game. 44 00:02:41,878 --> 00:02:42,497 And they didn't 45 00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:45,974 want to finish it, so we finished it. And they released it in Japan and we released 46 00:02:46,057 --> 00:02:50,517 it in the US in, I think, 2004. And decided we would start work on 47 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:55,140 an open-world cowboy game for PS3. 48 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,460 Didn't think too much more about it, and that was when we did a bunch of other 49 00:02:59,544 --> 00:03:06,477 stuff to work on. And slowly, 2005, 2006, the game started to come to life. I began 50 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:13,560 to meet with the lead designer, Christian Cantamessa, and thrash out a few 51 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,760 ideas and story ideas for the game, and began to think about some stuff. And 52 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,518 start thinking about, well, what works for an open-world game? 53 00:03:21,601 --> 00:03:26,517 What works for a cowboy game? And again, I was being lazy or procrastinating. 54 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,437 - Can we just on a small tangent, when you mentioned you take notes 55 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,907 when you're being lazy. What do those notes look like? Are they like doodles? 56 00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:36,317 - They look like either a yellow pad— 57 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,737 —or a BlackBerry in those days, or an iPhone in these 58 00:03:39,820 --> 00:03:43,617 days. I'll write the subject matter and then just email myself a note. 59 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:47,197 Here's a good idea. Here's a good idea. Or it might almost be scribbling on a pad. 60 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,937 And then I'll assemble, if they're done digitally, then I'll do, I'll 61 00:03:51,020 --> 00:03:54,857 assemble them into one long Word file. And then I'll look at them and 62 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:58,090 go, you know, "Here's an idea, here's an idea, here's an idea." 63 00:03:58,940 --> 00:04:01,879 See if it comes to anything. See if I now aggregate them together and then read 64 00:04:01,963 --> 00:04:04,598 through them. If there's anything coherent there. You know, 65 00:04:04,681 --> 00:04:06,437 something about a character like this, or that. 66 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:09,422 This would be a funny line. This is a line for the main character. 67 00:04:09,505 --> 00:04:10,457 Actually make the main 68 00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:14,257 character work like this. You know, what about this relationship? 69 00:04:14,340 --> 00:04:18,177 As you start to just play around with, "What about if we start in that 70 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:21,379 place, go to that place?" Start just to play around with all of the different bits 71 00:04:21,463 --> 00:04:24,950 and pieces. And we began to flesh out 72 00:04:25,460 --> 00:04:29,177 some flow for the start of the game. And this idea you'd start in dusty 73 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:32,537 American West, which meant we didn't have to make too many trees, and then go to 74 00:04:32,620 --> 00:04:35,880 Mexico, and then come back. And we had a sort of loose 75 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:42,917 flow. And I was really scared of writing any actual dialogue. And I didn't 76 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,937 have a clue how to go about it. And 77 00:04:47,020 --> 00:04:50,777 I kept... It'll come, it'll come. And I kept... because I could postpone it for 78 00:04:50,860 --> 00:04:54,490 ages because we were doing GTA IV. And I kept worrying about it. 79 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,497 My work was wrapped on GTA IV, but the game wasn't out yet. 80 00:04:58,580 --> 00:05:00,069 And we'd done a bunch of the marketing stuff, 81 00:05:00,153 --> 00:05:01,977 and had a little window when I wasn't doing much else. 82 00:05:02,060 --> 00:05:05,640 And I took a week with my then girlfriend, now 83 00:05:05,780 --> 00:05:09,697 wife, who was heavily pregnant with our first child, and we went up 84 00:05:09,780 --> 00:05:13,680 to a house upstate and sat there. Well, she, she, she 85 00:05:13,780 --> 00:05:16,677 sat there, either cooking for me or watching TV or reading. 86 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:17,720 And I just went and 87 00:05:17,820 --> 00:05:21,276 sat in the room all day, every day. And just sat there and stared at the computer 88 00:05:21,359 --> 00:05:24,997 and tried to think about, "How can I do this so that it doesn't sound 89 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,900 ridiculous?" How can you write in a cowboy 90 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:32,360 idiom that feels both slightly contemporary but also 91 00:05:32,540 --> 00:05:35,680 gives the game this sort of life and this weight that I want it to have, 92 00:05:35,764 --> 00:05:39,080 and think we can get away with? And 93 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,157 after about three days, it just started to come. And then suddenly I wrote about 94 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,590 nine, 10 scenes in the next couple of days. And 95 00:05:47,020 --> 00:05:48,867 after that, I knew I had it. And it was a bit... 96 00:05:48,950 --> 00:05:50,717 I don't know if that's why there was so much 97 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:55,797 about a character caring about his family, because I was just beginning the 98 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:58,417 process of having a family. - Oh. 99 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:01,046 - So I don't know if that- I don't know to what extent that bled in there, 100 00:06:01,130 --> 00:06:02,537 but I think it bled in there to some extent. 101 00:06:02,620 --> 00:06:05,470 - So that was part of creating the 360-degree characters. 102 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:10,000 - I think so. - Here's this man that is 103 00:06:10,460 --> 00:06:14,197 capable, is involved in a lot of violence, who also cares about his family. 104 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:18,177 - He's grown up and he's trying to step away from that and be a man, be 105 00:06:18,260 --> 00:06:21,657 a grown-up. And can he get away from it? And when he can't get away from 106 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:24,347 it, what's he willing to do to save his family? 107 00:06:24,430 --> 00:06:28,237 And that was, I felt, starting to get some idea. I mean, she, well, 108 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:32,011 She hadn't given birth yet, but I was beginning to grapple with the ideas of, 109 00:06:32,094 --> 00:06:32,237 "I'm 110 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,137 gonna become a parent." So I hope some of that... And obviously, then I didn't, 111 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:39,205 probably didn't write any more for six months. So later on we had a child. 112 00:06:39,288 --> 00:06:42,867 But certainly for that first bit, I think some of that began to bleed in there. 113 00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:46,860 -...you got the feeling that you can actually do it. It's true, it's... 114 00:06:46,950 --> 00:06:50,870 It could have very easily been ridiculous and 115 00:06:51,130 --> 00:06:54,367 not believable, the dialogue between convoys. 116 00:06:54,450 --> 00:06:58,747 - Yes. - And, yes, I mean, there's probably so much work went into 117 00:06:58,830 --> 00:07:02,980 making it feel real and believable. And, and, like, that... 118 00:07:04,190 --> 00:07:11,190 Like a Shakespearean type of drama, but not the cheesy kind. 119 00:07:12,430 --> 00:07:16,367 - Well, just wanted it to feel when they spoke. I 120 00:07:16,450 --> 00:07:20,367 mean, I, I, I love dialogue. I'm always, you know, I love the sound of 121 00:07:20,450 --> 00:07:24,307 words, but just wanted to feel like when they sounded, it didn't sound cheesy, 122 00:07:24,390 --> 00:07:28,027 it didn't sound ridiculous. You wanted to hear them speak more. It didn't make you 123 00:07:28,110 --> 00:07:31,607 cringe awfully when they spoke. That was the... At some level that was all the goal 124 00:07:31,690 --> 00:07:35,500 was, and then they felt like this guy was gonna go on this life and 125 00:07:35,590 --> 00:07:39,407 death odyssey and you cared about him. You had to care about his wife and 126 00:07:39,490 --> 00:07:41,807 child that he left behind, even though you didn't know them. 127 00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:45,390 - When did you know how you were going to end Red Dead Redemption One? 128 00:07:46,010 --> 00:07:48,547 - I remember I did a meeting with Christian, the 129 00:07:48,630 --> 00:07:52,490 designer. I can't remember what year. Probably some point 130 00:07:53,050 --> 00:07:56,907 late 2008, early 2009, and we were discussing the last bit and, 131 00:07:56,990 --> 00:08:00,690 and, and said, "I think he's gotta die." And he 132 00:08:00,810 --> 00:08:03,927 leapt on the idea and went, "That's... Yes, yes. No, no, wait, no, it can't work. 133 00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:06,826 Games can't work like that. It can't work if he's dead." You know, 134 00:08:06,910 --> 00:08:07,967 began to think through, 135 00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:11,159 well, if we... Just technically it doesn't work because you have to be able to finish 136 00:08:11,242 --> 00:08:13,663 all the stuff up, and then began to think through, "Actually, 137 00:08:13,746 --> 00:08:15,487 I think we can make it work if we do it this 138 00:08:15,570 --> 00:08:19,390 way." And so he then really pushed for that idea, 139 00:08:20,010 --> 00:08:23,267 and it seemed to... I was like, "Ah," and I was still torn. I thought it 140 00:08:23,350 --> 00:08:28,110 was clever narratively but I was torn if it was gonna work 141 00:08:29,070 --> 00:08:32,167 technically as a piece of game design, but I think it did. 142 00:08:32,250 --> 00:08:36,167 - Yeah, and spoiler alert, of course, how do we tell the 143 00:08:36,250 --> 00:08:40,007 story of that? Well, so he goes through a lot. He does 144 00:08:40,090 --> 00:08:43,850 all the... John does all the dirty work of hunting down his old gang and he 145 00:08:43,970 --> 00:08:47,750 finally is able to go home and be with his family, 146 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:52,680 be on the ranch, and then the government betrays him and 147 00:08:52,830 --> 00:08:59,830 sends troops to kill him. And there is dialogue. I mean, that just, 148 00:09:00,510 --> 00:09:07,510 I think the two times I shed a tear in video game history for me is 149 00:09:09,245 --> 00:09:11,070 that dialogue. 150 00:09:12,170 --> 00:09:13,890 I think John talking to his wife, 151 00:09:14,710 --> 00:09:18,607 if I vaguely remember. I think he said, "I love you." 152 00:09:18,690 --> 00:09:22,630 But he said very little. He didn't... He made it seem like he's going to see 153 00:09:22,750 --> 00:09:26,730 her and his son shortly. That dialogue was 154 00:09:26,910 --> 00:09:32,032 masterfully done, like a definition of like less is more. 155 00:09:32,116 --> 00:09:34,490 It was just so crisp, that 156 00:09:34,770 --> 00:09:39,710 and... And, of course, the other one is again, from memory, Arthur riding 157 00:09:41,230 --> 00:09:45,107 his horse and the music is playing. It's very hard not to shed 158 00:09:45,190 --> 00:09:50,770 a tear during that. Anyway, the dialogue of John talking to his wife 159 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:55,617 at the end when he's in a barn and is about to walk out. 160 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:59,887 to face certain death. Do you remember writing that? 161 00:09:59,970 --> 00:10:02,970 - Oh, yeah. Yeah. But it just... Again, I went... 162 00:10:03,070 --> 00:10:07,247 The actor was so good and we've already seen a bunch of his work by then. 163 00:10:07,330 --> 00:10:11,127 He had such a good... He was so good at reading those lines that I knew he 164 00:10:11,210 --> 00:10:14,097 could give us... that you could feel at that point, like- 165 00:10:14,180 --> 00:10:17,877 …I think those lines are best when they're really short and punchy. So I knew— 166 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,327 - Got it. - I knew he'd be able to make that line sound good. 167 00:10:20,410 --> 00:10:22,747 - So you were imagining his voice. You were just- 168 00:10:22,830 --> 00:10:26,520 - And I think all of those actors on Red Dead 169 00:10:26,610 --> 00:10:30,547 Redemption One were so strong that they really brought that game to life. If 170 00:10:30,630 --> 00:10:34,287 them and Rod, the director, hadn't done such a good job, it would have 171 00:10:34,370 --> 00:10:36,007 sounded cheesy as hell. 172 00:10:36,090 --> 00:10:43,090 - You've said that the ending of RDR1 is one of the best things you've been a part 173 00:10:46,008 --> 00:10:46,207 of 174 00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:53,010 creating. Why is that ending so powerful to you? What does it represent? 175 00:10:53,110 --> 00:10:59,960 - I think because for the story to work, just from a technical 176 00:11:00,050 --> 00:11:02,987 challenge, for the story to work, he had to 177 00:11:03,070 --> 00:11:06,887 die. But for a game to work, it felt like a challenge to 178 00:11:06,970 --> 00:11:08,620 make him die. It was probably the 179 00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:14,427 fourth, fifth, or sixth open-world game I'd worked on, and 180 00:11:14,510 --> 00:11:18,227 I'd spent all these years before that working out how these stories worked. 181 00:11:18,310 --> 00:11:22,167 How to make them work technically, how to make them feel right, how they interacted 182 00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:25,947 with the open-form gameplay as best I could. 183 00:11:26,030 --> 00:11:29,847 And suddenly we're going to break one of our golden rules, which was, at the 184 00:11:29,930 --> 00:11:33,035 end of the game, you're freeing the character to go and wrap up all the side 185 00:11:33,119 --> 00:11:33,727 stories, to play 186 00:11:33,810 --> 00:11:36,508 forever. You're not going to be able to do that in this game because the guy's going 187 00:11:36,591 --> 00:11:37,687 to be dead, and we're going to have 188 00:11:37,770 --> 00:11:42,410 you play as a different character, and the narrative is going to 189 00:11:43,350 --> 00:11:45,015 be compelling enough, if we've done a good job, 190 00:11:45,098 --> 00:11:47,198 where you're not going to care about that. 191 00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:51,147 Or you're going to be upset that he's dead, but you can actually have this 192 00:11:51,230 --> 00:11:52,890 emotional moment. 193 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:57,250 So I think it was a big risk from a technical perspective for us to do that, 194 00:11:57,333 --> 00:12:00,533 and then it worked. So I think that was something that was very… 195 00:12:00,750 --> 00:12:03,787 full of fear, and it worked out okay. 196 00:12:03,870 --> 00:12:06,404 And I think people were really upset and angry at us for doing it because they 197 00:12:06,488 --> 00:12:07,807 didn't think it was going to happen, but 198 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:10,394 I think they also had that kind of experience you're describing, 199 00:12:10,477 --> 00:12:11,667 which is that kind of creative 200 00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:14,734 moment where, you know, a transcendent moment with characters in a piece 201 00:12:14,818 --> 00:12:17,727 of fiction, which is what we've always aspired to giving people. 202 00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:19,740 - I mean, it's incredible because I don't think… 203 00:12:19,823 --> 00:12:22,527 I don't remember a single video game that has done that before. 204 00:12:22,610 --> 00:12:24,886 - Well, I would like to have, at the end of GTA IV, killed Niko, 205 00:12:24,970 --> 00:12:25,627 but you couldn't do 206 00:12:25,710 --> 00:12:29,647 it. You know, the game doesn't work like that. So it was this thing where we 207 00:12:29,730 --> 00:12:33,667 hadn't done it, thought about doing it, hadn't done it, and then going, "Let's 208 00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:37,890 do it. Let's take the risk and do it. We can't do it. Let's try." And it worked. 209 00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:42,267 - Yeah, what about the decision with the son? You know, 210 00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:46,230 John gives so much effort to make sure that Jack doesn't end up 211 00:12:46,430 --> 00:12:53,087 in a life of violence. I mean, it's very Godfather-like. It's— 212 00:12:53,170 --> 00:12:56,537 …he's dragged back into it through revenge. 213 00:12:56,620 --> 00:13:00,457 - That was also, the game still had to work as a game. Whether that was the right 214 00:13:00,540 --> 00:13:07,540 ending, 100% the best ending from a pure storytelling perspective, I don't know. 215 00:13:07,860 --> 00:13:10,477 But I know that we had to make the game work. 216 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:11,197 - Oh, interesting. 217 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:15,097 - So it was... I think it kind of worked in that way where Jack can't 218 00:13:15,180 --> 00:13:18,897 escape, but I always also wanted a version of it where Jack did 219 00:13:18,980 --> 00:13:22,517 escape, but that wasn't... Both were interesting to me. 220 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,134 - Can you just dig in a little deeper? What do you mean about for the game 221 00:13:25,217 --> 00:13:25,437 to work? 222 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,860 It's such a direct... It's like Kubrick talking about for this movie to work, 223 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:33,884 it has to have... From my perspective, I just think about the story. 224 00:13:33,968 --> 00:13:35,627 What's the technical aspect for the game to work? 225 00:13:35,710 --> 00:13:39,337 - It's just the mechanical experience is you have an 226 00:13:39,420 --> 00:13:43,320 avatar you control, and you know, the games don't really end. 227 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,957 You have to be able to wander around the world and do stuff. 228 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:49,800 So at the end of the game, you have to be able to wander around with your 229 00:13:49,940 --> 00:13:53,490 fairly limited set of 230 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,917 features, which is you can run up to someone and punch them or shoot them or 231 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,720 rob them, or talk to them. And that's 232 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,037 kind of... or jump on a horse or do all this other 233 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,720 stuff. In order for the game still to be fun and people to get this full 234 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,857 360-degree experience with it, they had to, if they 235 00:14:12,940 --> 00:14:16,697 wanted to 100% the game as opposed to just finishing the story, you have to have an 236 00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:22,097 avatar to do that stuff with. So that was the sort of challenge of Jack's 237 00:14:22,180 --> 00:14:25,017 character, wrapping up the story as Jack. 238 00:14:25,100 --> 00:14:31,617 - Oh, there's real power for the avatar to end, the finiteness. 239 00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:35,097 - Yeah. Both the Red Deads, you obviously change avatars. 240 00:14:35,180 --> 00:14:38,887 Which we did, and then did it again. I think there's something interesting about 241 00:14:38,970 --> 00:14:41,022 that moment when you change from one character to another, 242 00:14:41,106 --> 00:14:42,377 because they are you and they're not 243 00:14:42,460 --> 00:14:44,917 you, you know, and then suddenly you're someone else. 244 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,297 - Mm-hmm. I mean, I was really shaken by that 245 00:14:48,380 --> 00:14:52,057 experience, but it's a beautiful experience. It's like an unforgettable 246 00:14:52,140 --> 00:14:55,497 experience. What else can video games possibly reach 247 00:14:55,580 --> 00:14:59,397 for? You know, to create that experience, 248 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,637 that's what great films do, that's what great, great books do. 249 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,101 - It's that. I mean, it's that and the world building in games. 250 00:15:05,184 --> 00:15:06,657 I think the experience of being in this 251 00:15:06,740 --> 00:15:10,117 fake place and then taking on these narrative 252 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,700 adventures, when that combines, you've got the amazing experience. 253 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,390 - So who do you think is the best character you've ever created in RDR? 254 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,750 So to me, I think definitively Arthur from Red Dead Redemption 255 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:27,000 2 is the best character ever created in video games ever. 256 00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:28,900 - Thank you. 257 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,677 - I think there's not even close. I mean, John will be the se-, which is hilarious 258 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:38,935 to say, but those are... John will be a close second, but Arthur is definitively. 259 00:15:39,018 --> 00:15:44,400 And you've talked about in that interview, you said that a lot of video games 260 00:15:45,420 --> 00:15:49,257 work on the same premise, that you start as a weak person and 261 00:15:49,340 --> 00:15:53,197 end up as a strong superhero. But what if you start as a 262 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:56,877 tough guy, someone who already is very strong, someone that's 263 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,897 emotionally confident of his place in the world? Arthur's journey is not about 264 00:16:00,980 --> 00:16:04,957 becoming a superhero because he's almost one at the start, but 265 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,877 it's about an intellectual rollercoaster when his worldview gets 266 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:15,960 taken apart. So it's very different than the normal journey of a character. 267 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,517 - Yeah, in a game... - In a game -... in order to reverse it. 268 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,989 So there were a couple other themes that matched that. 269 00:16:23,072 --> 00:16:27,177 So they're guys from the Wild West, but they're being pushed ever further east. 270 00:16:27,260 --> 00:16:28,827 So it's almost like an anti-Western. 271 00:16:28,910 --> 00:16:32,877 An Eastern. You're traveling east. You're traveling into civilization. And I 272 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:39,960 don't think I would've been grappling with those ideas earlier in my career, 273 00:16:40,860 --> 00:16:44,517 'cause it was so, you know, this idea of getting a different kind of 274 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,517 strength and different kind of weakness was interesting. 275 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,182 - What about the component of mortality, of a character facing his own mortality 276 00:16:50,265 --> 00:16:54,580 over a prolonged period? Sort of just the, the, the, the 277 00:16:54,760 --> 00:17:01,057 prospect of like, real sort of fear of death, realization of death. 278 00:17:01,140 --> 00:17:02,637 - Yeah. I thought that was really- - as part of the story. 279 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:07,420 - really a fun thing to play with. John dies in Red Dead 1, 280 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,097 I wanted to top that with Red Dead 2, or do that in a 281 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:15,977 different way. And so the idea that John's death is fairly sudden, and 282 00:17:16,060 --> 00:17:18,957 so if he's got this long, drawn-out death, then I'd always 283 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,597 been obsessed by TB. As diseases go, it's a great literary device. 284 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,802 You know, 'cause it is this long, drawn-out, slow death, 285 00:17:26,885 --> 00:17:28,457 but in which you are also getting weaker. 286 00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:31,917 And my grandfather actually had TB before they invented 287 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,577 antibiotics and was sent to a sanatorium just after he 288 00:17:35,660 --> 00:17:39,557 was... just after he'd had his child, my father, 289 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,840 and survived, but only three of them out of like 35 survived. So I was always, 290 00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:48,500 captivated by TB as an illness. It 291 00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:52,300 felt like it was an interesting thing to play around with 292 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,420 as an idea, this guy getting weaker who felt like he was immortal 293 00:17:56,620 --> 00:17:59,481 and essentially was immortal. He was the protagonist in a video game, 294 00:17:59,564 --> 00:18:04,237 he could not die, and suddenly he is becoming mortal. You know, but that 295 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,297 helps him see stuff. I thought that was a different way of doing a lead 296 00:18:08,380 --> 00:18:09,817 character in a game. 297 00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:13,620 - Yeah. Do you think it's the greatest character you've ever created? 298 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:14,940 - I think he's the best 299 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,099 lead character. You know, the lead characters are different from the side 300 00:18:19,182 --> 00:18:20,016 characters, 301 00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:27,180 and I think he's the most rounded and works the best. I kind of... 302 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:33,487 Him and Nico are the two I like, you know. They were the two most ambitious. 303 00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:37,277 So for me, it's always sort of a toss-up, you know? But then I 304 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:41,017 loved all the stuff, like the art team did such an 305 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:44,807 amazing job. It was their idea with the journal and that kind of... 306 00:18:44,890 --> 00:18:48,677 The way that all the features worked into Arthur's character, I thought that 307 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,354 was really... He was really rounded, he worked in lots of different ways really 308 00:18:52,437 --> 00:18:55,767 well. I loved his flawed relationship with his old 309 00:18:55,850 --> 00:18:58,148 girlfriend, things like that. All the side... You know, 310 00:18:58,231 --> 00:19:00,607 the bits that turned up around him. 311 00:19:00,690 --> 00:19:04,837 - So you also like the side characters. You like the flavor - Yeah, of course. 312 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,327 - of the full cast. What are some of the favorites you've created? 313 00:19:08,410 --> 00:19:10,527 I'm sure the one you're currently working on- 314 00:19:10,610 --> 00:19:13,347 Nigel, that's a... You called him a side character. 315 00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:17,407 - Well, he's not a protagonist. He's like a god, not a character. 316 00:19:17,490 --> 00:19:22,687 So he's not... Him, I'm enjoying. I love Dutch. 317 00:19:22,770 --> 00:19:27,070 You know, it was partly because we wrote a few lines for him 318 00:19:28,090 --> 00:19:31,490 for the first game, and the actor did such a 319 00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:35,507 such an amazing job that when he spoke, it just came to me 320 00:19:35,590 --> 00:19:38,659 all of their backstory, which I'd been playing around with by that point anyway 321 00:19:38,742 --> 00:19:41,543 a little bit in my head. But I knew it was his bigger gangster from then. 322 00:19:41,627 --> 00:19:42,727 I sort of saw exactly who he 323 00:19:42,810 --> 00:19:47,907 was. And so that was... That felt like... He felt like a living character to me. 324 00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:50,672 - And we should say that Dutch is kind of like, 325 00:19:50,755 --> 00:19:52,987 maybe a little bit of a godlike figure- 326 00:19:53,070 --> 00:19:56,967 in both of the Red Dead Redemption games. He's the leader of the gang. 327 00:19:57,050 --> 00:20:00,920 And there's a father-son relationship with Dutch, with, uh, 328 00:20:01,570 --> 00:20:05,500 I mean, with Arthur, with John. There's a family feeling to the 329 00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:09,487 gang. They explore all of those dynamics, and then the feeling of 330 00:20:09,570 --> 00:20:12,847 betrayal and Arthur facing tuberculosis. 331 00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:15,477 You're going against the family, going against the father- 332 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,287 because he is transforming his sense of the 333 00:20:19,370 --> 00:20:22,307 world, of morality, of all those kinds of things. So all the kind of very 334 00:20:22,390 --> 00:20:26,180 Shakespearean drama is right there. And Dutch is 335 00:20:27,010 --> 00:20:30,470 a prominent godlike figure through all of that. Also 336 00:20:30,610 --> 00:20:35,310 flawed himself. Also a man of good and evil in that, 337 00:20:36,250 --> 00:20:37,977 framework that they're operating under. 338 00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:40,747 - And he's just drowning in his ego at the end. 339 00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:44,147 You know, his ego gets the better of him. I think he's a... But there was 340 00:20:44,230 --> 00:20:50,607 something flawed but beautiful in his idealism when he was younger, and that's 341 00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:53,770 mostly off-camera. And then just so you know, always been 342 00:20:54,630 --> 00:20:58,627 as an individual, I've always been very susceptible to charming people. 343 00:20:58,710 --> 00:21:02,627 And he's charming. So I was kind of... I can see how people get captivated. 344 00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:06,640 by charming people. And the idea here was a very charming person, 345 00:21:07,210 --> 00:21:08,947 and the road's run out for him. 346 00:21:09,030 --> 00:21:13,530 - I personally am afraid of how much I love human beings, 347 00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:18,707 and how susceptible I am to charm and charisma. 348 00:21:18,790 --> 00:21:21,727 'Cause it can cloud your judgment about human nature. 349 00:21:21,810 --> 00:21:25,690 - Completely. And that's what's happened with him. And it ended up 350 00:21:25,990 --> 00:21:30,770 clouding his judgment about himself. He kind of fell for his own rubbish. 351 00:21:30,950 --> 00:21:34,187 - Yeah, but also it clouded Arthur's judgment. 352 00:21:34,270 --> 00:21:38,107 - Oh, completely. Arthur was completely, you know, platonically in 353 00:21:38,190 --> 00:21:40,998 love with him. He was worshiping him. He'd given up his power to him. 354 00:21:41,082 --> 00:21:45,387 And then I think for Arthur, the journey is retaking that 355 00:21:45,470 --> 00:21:49,367 power in the moment of dying. You know, and that's what the whole... that's why 356 00:21:49,450 --> 00:21:50,927 I thought that was really interesting. 357 00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:54,050 - Yeah, it's truly tragic for Arthur to be 358 00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:58,930 losing his identity, lifelong identity, and 359 00:21:59,090 --> 00:22:02,067 sense of belonging, and losing his life at the same 360 00:22:02,150 --> 00:22:09,150 time. In facing mortality, he is realizing that he's not all of it has been a lie. 361 00:22:11,370 --> 00:22:14,247 - But he gets to do some... Well, it depends on what choices you make. 362 00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:20,047 But he gets to do some good. And so he gets his moment of redemption. 363 00:22:20,130 --> 00:22:21,557 - Just a little bit. But realizing... 364 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:27,627 your whole life you've been living not a good life. You've been not a good man. 365 00:22:27,710 --> 00:22:28,987 - Isn't that what we're all afraid of? 366 00:22:29,070 --> 00:22:32,470 - I guess it's never too late to change your ways. 367 00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:32,797 - Hope not. I mean, that's... 368 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:39,147 - So, the biggest, most important, primary question, central to the 369 00:22:39,230 --> 00:22:43,067 reason we're talking today, the number one question from the 370 00:22:43,150 --> 00:22:49,330 Internet, it is so ridiculous, but I must ask. Have you seen Gavin? 371 00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:54,427 Who is Gavin? So, for more context, there's a guy named Nigel in Red Dead 372 00:22:54,510 --> 00:22:58,307 Redemption 2 who's frantically searching for a mystery man named Gavin 373 00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:02,040 throughout the game. This has become one of the biggest mysteries amongst 374 00:23:02,570 --> 00:23:06,467 the interwebs, the RDR fan base. So, the theories 375 00:23:06,550 --> 00:23:10,510 include, theory one is it's a split personality disorder. Nigel 376 00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:17,850 himself is Gavin. So, the evidence for this theory is the letter that has some 377 00:23:18,410 --> 00:23:21,847 evidence that may be due to trauma, this split 378 00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:25,627 personality disorder was created. This Gavin was created inside Nigel's 379 00:23:25,710 --> 00:23:29,167 mind. Theory two is Gavin is dead, and Nigel's simply in denial. 380 00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:33,167 Theory three is that it's 381 00:23:33,250 --> 00:23:37,087 just a troll, and Rockstar intentionally created an unsolvable mystery 382 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:40,540 to drive players crazy. I also heard theory four is 383 00:23:40,770 --> 00:23:44,287 Gavin is the Strange Man. So, there's this 384 00:23:44,370 --> 00:23:48,127 fascinating character, the Strange Man, this supernatural character that has a 385 00:23:48,210 --> 00:23:55,210 presence in RDR1 and a little bit in RDR2 also. But yeah. So which theory 386 00:23:56,230 --> 00:24:02,247 is closest to the truth? - Not three or four. In my mind, somewhere 387 00:24:02,330 --> 00:24:06,167 between one and two. I just loved the way he 388 00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:10,027 shouted, "Gavin." It just amused me. So at some level, it 389 00:24:10,110 --> 00:24:13,907 probably is trolling in that we didn't want it to be a totally clear mystery. 390 00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:17,730 You wanted it to have a little bit of adventure to it. 391 00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:22,087 but it was meant to be... Without ever fully being 392 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:25,807 explained that Gavin's not there anymore. Gavin's either gone 393 00:24:25,890 --> 00:24:29,687 home, Gavin's left him, Gavin's... And we were going to keep 394 00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:34,057 exploring that idea. That he was going to reappear in some way or other. 395 00:24:34,140 --> 00:24:41,140 - Did you have any idea how much imagination, excitement, and curiosity 396 00:24:42,110 --> 00:24:44,590 that little interaction would inspire in people? 397 00:24:45,070 --> 00:24:48,950 - Yes and no. You could never know what people are going to find amusing 398 00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:52,046 in these big games, and a lot of it comes down to acting as well. 399 00:24:52,129 --> 00:24:55,187 The guy was just funny when he said "Gavin." It was just funny. 400 00:24:55,270 --> 00:24:59,087 You know? But there was a ped in Red Dead Redemption one that everyone was obsessed 401 00:24:59,170 --> 00:25:02,770 by, and I really wasn't expecting that. So we try to put a few 402 00:25:02,870 --> 00:25:06,667 characters in. I mean, Gavin was supposed to be amusing. I thought he was amusing. 403 00:25:06,750 --> 00:25:09,443 But you never know what people are going to get obsessed by. 404 00:25:09,527 --> 00:25:10,747 There are other characters 405 00:25:10,830 --> 00:25:13,293 I think are funny, and people don't even notice them, you know, 406 00:25:13,377 --> 00:25:15,367 or they see them in a completely different way. 407 00:25:15,450 --> 00:25:17,467 - Did you have a part in writing the letter? 408 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:21,207 - Yeah. I can't remember if I wrote it or... Either I wrote it or Mike 409 00:25:21,290 --> 00:25:23,793 wrote it, or we both wrote it. I really can't remember, to be honest with you. 410 00:25:23,877 --> 00:25:25,147 But yeah, I certainly would have edited 411 00:25:25,230 --> 00:25:27,826 it, and Mike might have written it, or I might have written it. 412 00:25:27,909 --> 00:25:28,867 I really can't remember. 413 00:25:28,950 --> 00:25:31,690 - It's so fascinating because that little piece of writing— of course, 414 00:25:31,773 --> 00:25:33,417 you have thousands of pages- - Yeah. 415 00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:36,507 -...but that little piece of writing gets analyzed. 416 00:25:36,590 --> 00:25:40,467 - Oh, but we certainly talked about it in depth, and if Mike was here, 417 00:25:40,550 --> 00:25:42,675 I'd ask him. He might remember. I can't really... 418 00:25:42,758 --> 00:25:44,387 And we do so many of those things. 419 00:25:44,470 --> 00:25:48,107 And I loved the use of letters in Red Dead to tell all these weird 420 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:52,127 backstories. And some became very clear and some were still 421 00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:56,107 a little kind of opaque. But I think the general vibe was there was no 422 00:25:56,190 --> 00:26:00,087 Gavin. Either there was no Gavin or he'd long since left. So it's kind 423 00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:03,687 of a split personality, you know, and then we were going to over subsequent 424 00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:05,537 games provide more information. 425 00:26:05,620 --> 00:26:09,547 - So in some sense, you yourself don't quite know. You kind of have 426 00:26:09,630 --> 00:26:13,460 an idea, like which way do you lean more, theory 427 00:26:13,610 --> 00:26:16,587 one or two? Is he dead, and Nigel's in 428 00:26:16,670 --> 00:26:21,227 denial, or is there real communication going inside his head? 429 00:26:21,310 --> 00:26:23,166 - No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 430 00:26:23,249 --> 00:26:25,127 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 431 00:26:25,210 --> 00:26:27,087 No, Gavin existed. So it wasn't that he was a split personality, 432 00:26:27,170 --> 00:26:29,087 and the only thing we hadn't really decided was in a future game 433 00:26:29,170 --> 00:26:33,007 were we going to reveal that Gavin was dead, or was Gavin going to turn up having 434 00:26:33,090 --> 00:26:36,627 long since abandoned this maniac. That was what we were still playing around 435 00:26:36,710 --> 00:26:39,207 with. I think the idea was that he was never going to meet... 436 00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:43,870 He was never going to meet Gavin in this game. 437 00:26:44,010 --> 00:26:47,707 - I mean, it's just fascinating because you have to think about all of that. 438 00:26:47,790 --> 00:26:50,238 You have to write all of that. You have to have those discussions. 439 00:26:50,321 --> 00:26:51,747 You have to have those debates. 440 00:26:51,830 --> 00:26:53,367 - And it has to feel fresh. 441 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:57,327 Like, what we've done before. Constantly looking as you do. You know, I 442 00:26:57,410 --> 00:27:00,571 think I've done, you know, somewhere between 15 and 20 of these games. 443 00:27:00,655 --> 00:27:03,987 Got to do stuff that's new. It can't repeat itself too much. 444 00:27:04,070 --> 00:27:07,887 - I mean, we also live in the age of the internet. Just, like, you 445 00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:14,770 realize there are millions of people worrying about where and who Gavin is. 446 00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:17,057 - Thank God. - It's like- - It's great, yeah. 447 00:27:17,140 --> 00:27:20,927 - It's fascinating that they're having... Is, think about people reading, like, 448 00:27:21,010 --> 00:27:24,607 James Joyce or something and thinking about the character, like, breaking apart 449 00:27:24,690 --> 00:27:28,287 Ulysses and thinking about, like, arguing about 450 00:27:28,370 --> 00:27:32,987 different interpretations of it. And to me, that in itself is also beautiful. 451 00:27:33,070 --> 00:27:36,927 - Yeah. We want the side mysteries to be solvable up to a point, but you still 452 00:27:37,010 --> 00:27:38,947 want these discussions. - Yeah, the mystery. 453 00:27:39,030 --> 00:27:42,927 - You know, and you want as long as it feels tonally appropriate for 454 00:27:43,010 --> 00:27:46,047 this whole big sort of shaggy dog story experience you're 455 00:27:46,130 --> 00:27:50,050 making. Which Gavin was just about, and he was so weird, and he just 456 00:27:50,150 --> 00:27:53,190 was intrinsically... there was just something funny about an English person 457 00:27:53,274 --> 00:27:55,507 screaming, "Gavin." I don't know why. 458 00:27:55,590 --> 00:27:59,407 - Yeah. Some of that humor, there's... there's certain in Red Dead 459 00:27:59,490 --> 00:28:02,397 Redemption there's humor, but there's a lot of it in Grand Theft Auto- 460 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,130 ...and what... It's hard to put into words. 461 00:28:06,330 --> 00:28:09,710 why that's funny, why it becomes a meme, why it becomes viral, 462 00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:11,727 'cause it's just funny. 463 00:28:11,810 --> 00:28:14,449 - Yeah, I know why I think it's funny, but you... what you can't... 464 00:28:14,532 --> 00:28:15,667 What I'm not good at doing at 465 00:28:15,750 --> 00:28:19,567 least is going, "This thing will become really popular online and 466 00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:24,747 this other thing won't." You can create this bunch of, you know, fifty different 467 00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:27,215 side things that people might get captivated by, 468 00:28:27,299 --> 00:28:29,677 and you just do not know what they're going to respond to. 469 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,627 - How do you know when something's funny? Is it... you just feel it? 470 00:28:32,710 --> 00:28:34,617 - I know what I think is funny. It's, you know, it makes- 471 00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:36,707 - You just Google it or you just- -...like just 'cause it's ridiculous as well. 472 00:28:36,790 --> 00:28:41,247 That was just... There's nothing funny about a dude shouting, "Gavin," a lot. 473 00:28:41,330 --> 00:28:43,277 He just said it in a funny way... I just thought it might be funny- 474 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,767 It was great... and he just said it in such a funny way- 475 00:28:45,850 --> 00:28:49,600 ...and then it just became funny. Like, we often have those side characters 476 00:28:49,790 --> 00:28:52,418 and they're not that funny, and I think they're going to be hysterical, 477 00:28:52,501 --> 00:28:55,537 and then you put them in the game, and they're fine, but they're not amazing. 478 00:28:55,620 --> 00:28:57,267 That guy just brought that stuff to life. 479 00:28:57,350 --> 00:29:01,357 - Yeah. And his backstory too. I mean, Londoner and not... yeah, that... 480 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,441 - Yeah, I think that was what... you know, just that it... 481 00:29:03,525 --> 00:29:05,547 there's something sometimes fun, you know, in... 482 00:29:05,630 --> 00:29:09,267 an English person saying the name Gavin is quite funny. I don't know why. 483 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:13,047 - So, about the Strange Man, AKA, the Man in Black... Is there some 484 00:29:13,130 --> 00:29:16,121 element with Michael and the therapist in Grand Theft Auto V? Like, 485 00:29:16,204 --> 00:29:21,867 who is the Strange Man? - Well, the Strange Man was again... was, was, was 486 00:29:21,950 --> 00:29:25,670 someone we came up with quickly. It... we made Red Dead 1, 487 00:29:26,270 --> 00:29:30,167 and we... well, were making Red Dead 1, and 488 00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:34,127 we'd made this... we felt quite compelling story and quite 489 00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:38,047 interesting open world. But... and we'd already made a bunch of 490 00:29:38,130 --> 00:29:40,106 Grand Theft Autos, obviously, but unfortunately, 491 00:29:40,189 --> 00:29:42,067 we'd taken out the machine guns 'cause it was 492 00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:45,407 a cowboy game, apart from the big fixed position ones. And we'd taken out the 493 00:29:45,490 --> 00:29:49,107 cars, and we'd taken out the city and large numbers of pedestrians. So we 494 00:29:49,190 --> 00:29:51,457 essentially had a game about a dude riding a horse... 495 00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:55,367 ...around the desert. And it was quite... and it was quite boring. 496 00:29:55,450 --> 00:29:58,807 And so we then started filling it with content, and we filled it with these... 497 00:29:58,890 --> 00:30:02,236 and having to improvise. And we filled it with these things we call random events 498 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:02,947 that would be 499 00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:06,807 these sort of motion-capture moments that you could interact with. And it... 500 00:30:06,890 --> 00:30:09,725 they were, they were... the designers did an amazing job with those. 501 00:30:09,809 --> 00:30:10,707 They were really fun. 502 00:30:10,790 --> 00:30:13,780 But there was not enough of them. And then we felt we needed more story 'cause 503 00:30:13,864 --> 00:30:18,170 the story was perhaps a little short. So we kind of quite late in development 504 00:30:19,130 --> 00:30:22,547 started putting in almost like these RPG-type content where you go and meet 505 00:30:22,630 --> 00:30:25,370 someone. And the way we thought of them was they were like short stories. 506 00:30:25,454 --> 00:30:30,127 So you go and meet someone, they'd set you a slow problem, like go and collect me 15 507 00:30:30,210 --> 00:30:34,907 bunches of flowers. And when you came back, it would resolve your story. 508 00:30:34,990 --> 00:30:37,094 And so then, you know, one would go, "Go get them for my bride," 509 00:30:37,177 --> 00:30:38,467 and you come back and the bride's dead. 510 00:30:38,550 --> 00:30:42,107 You know, to... We tried to make them like these short stories with a sting in the 511 00:30:42,190 --> 00:30:43,630 tail. And 512 00:30:45,130 --> 00:30:49,057 he came out... as I was trying to come up with ideas for those, as just this 513 00:30:49,140 --> 00:30:52,597 weird character. And then we built him a bit into the story, 514 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,897 where he would unlock as you worked your way through and be a 515 00:30:55,980 --> 00:31:00,420 commentary on what you were doing. So he was meant to be a kind of 516 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,120 manifestation of your, 517 00:31:05,660 --> 00:31:09,557 you know, shadow, your karma, the devil, somewhere, you know, just 518 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,220 saw the world. And then we built out his backstory over time 519 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:16,713 and decided, you know... And so in Red Dead 2, 520 00:31:16,797 --> 00:31:18,077 you could interact with him again and... 521 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,997 or not really interact with him. But he was there and he was meant to be, 522 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,797 you know, something I suppose any creative is scared of, an artist who's kind of 523 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,737 sold his soul to the devil. And that slowly revealed itself. 524 00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:33,097 - There is a connection between the main character and 525 00:31:33,180 --> 00:31:36,357 the... Is it like a Jungian shadow type of situation? 526 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,357 - Well, it's sort of, because he knows what you're up to. The connection is... 527 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,237 what's never really made clear is, does he know this about everybody? 528 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,057 Like, is he following you, or is he able, because of the pact he's made 529 00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:51,937 with evil forces, able to do this for everybody? I don't think we 530 00:31:52,020 --> 00:31:55,217 necessarily ever clarify that. He's certainly able to do it for you. 531 00:31:55,300 --> 00:32:00,780 - I mean, there's, sort of narrative-wise, there are techniques to reveal a kind of 532 00:32:01,860 --> 00:32:05,797 self-reflection analysis of the main character's thoughts. That's why I 533 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,537 brought up the therapist with Michael. That was a really powerful, 534 00:32:09,620 --> 00:32:13,497 interesting thing to do in a video game. Like, I, I 535 00:32:13,580 --> 00:32:17,457 don't think I've seen... That's such a cool... I mean, there's a Sopranos element 536 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:18,937 there, with the therapist. - A little bit, yeah. 537 00:32:19,020 --> 00:32:23,420 - I really love an opportunity for a character to just 538 00:32:24,260 --> 00:32:25,887 self-reflect through that technique. 539 00:32:25,970 --> 00:32:27,937 - But it also changed depending on what you'd done. 540 00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:28,197 - Yes. 541 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,037 - So it was, it was sort of slightly... It wasn't as interactive as it could be, 542 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,857 but it was slightly interactive, or slightly responsive to what you'd done. 543 00:32:35,940 --> 00:32:39,156 So it felt it was still valid video game content, 'cause it was living, 544 00:32:39,239 --> 00:32:39,917 up to a point. 545 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,749 And I just thought the character, Dr. Friedlander, was just funny, 546 00:32:42,832 --> 00:32:43,617 'cause he was awful. 547 00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:47,617 So it was like LA. You're in therapy. It's very LA. But it's also very LA, he 548 00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:49,377 wants to write a book and betray you. 549 00:32:49,460 --> 00:32:53,337 Which felt like a good, a good twist. It felt like a Grand Theft Auto 550 00:32:53,420 --> 00:32:59,977 therapist. But just like the idea of making the player in a game, 551 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:03,997 and games are intrinsically kind of physical, and, you know, you... 552 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,447 you walk, you punch things, you run around, you drive cars, you shoot people, 553 00:33:07,530 --> 00:33:11,297 whatever. There are these kind of physical fantasies. Trying to put them into a 554 00:33:11,380 --> 00:33:14,837 slightly more reflective or metaphysical state for a moment, I think can be really 555 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,702 fun. - I think, to me, one of the most surprising things about Red Dead 556 00:33:18,786 --> 00:33:23,497 Redemption, about video games, that Red Dead Redemption showed is how much 557 00:33:23,580 --> 00:33:30,177 value for storytelling is insanely specific, intricate details. 558 00:33:30,260 --> 00:33:37,260 In the story, but also visually. It just added to the feeling that the world is 559 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,900 real. So I have to ask, what are some of your, um, 560 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,697 favorite insanely specific, intricate details in RDR? I can give you some 561 00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,377 options. The internet's favorite is horse testicles shrinking in cold weather. 562 00:33:50,460 --> 00:33:52,897 testicles shrinking in cold weather. 563 00:33:52,980 --> 00:33:55,897 - Yep. Those guys did an amazing job on those. 564 00:33:55,980 --> 00:33:58,328 - I mean, I just... And there must've been a meeting, 565 00:33:58,412 --> 00:34:00,012 and there must've been engineers 566 00:34:01,060 --> 00:34:03,777 and graphics designers. - It was just, I think just artists. 567 00:34:03,860 --> 00:34:07,360 - Artists - Modelers, I think. I don't think it was that hard. 568 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,480 - Okay. - Enough of that pun. 569 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,597 - Thank you for that. Arthur's hair and beard grow in real time. 570 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,217 So, gun maintenance matters. Firearms get dirty and perform worse over 571 00:34:19,300 --> 00:34:23,497 time. Animal carcasses decompose realistically. 572 00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:24,717 - They feel like they do. 573 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,157 - That's still extremely rare in video games. That, the temporal aspect. 574 00:34:28,240 --> 00:34:32,417 - Yes. Yeah. - That permeates through time. You know, NPCs remembering you. 575 00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:33,333 - That's 576 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,690 the best. I mean, that's the thing I love. Playing around with a lot of stuff 577 00:34:37,780 --> 00:34:41,097 in the new games around that, 'cause I think it's super interesting. Okay? 578 00:34:41,180 --> 00:34:41,617 - It's really powerful, right? 579 00:34:41,700 --> 00:34:45,037 - To make them... Yeah, really interesting. I think it just gives a... 580 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,900 it's a really fun way of giving you kind of narrative content 581 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:51,700 that is also systemic and procedural. 582 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,617 - Yeah. Is it technically really difficult to do for the 583 00:34:55,700 --> 00:34:58,937 game, for the game to feel like it remembers you? You know? 584 00:34:59,020 --> 00:35:02,960 - Um, I think with modern tech it's not that hard, but there's a 585 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,637 lot of stuff you need to track to make it interesting. 586 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:07,337 - Yeah, to have a memory. 587 00:35:07,420 --> 00:35:11,360 So that's really powerful. The mud physics. So Arthur's boots get 588 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,037 muddy and leave actual tracks. I mean, that's just incredible. Really, really 589 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:15,857 incredible. 590 00:35:15,940 --> 00:35:19,023 - You know, we made a dusty game. Red Dead 1 is a super dusty game. Make, 591 00:35:19,106 --> 00:35:20,406 you know, the problem with 592 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,877 cowboys is that if you've tried to make a Greatest Hits of the Cowboy game, and 593 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,617 then you've got to make a sequel, you've got to come up with different geography. 594 00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:32,477 So that's why the game starts in the snow. So we wanted a game that had snow and mud, 595 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,815 because those were things you hadn't really seen in Red Dead 1. 596 00:35:34,898 --> 00:35:36,437 And then the challenge is how do you make 597 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,077 mud good in a game? And the guys did an amazing job. 598 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,540 - I mean, the snowstorm that starts the game, 599 00:35:43,660 --> 00:35:47,577 RDR2, I don't remember the last time I've experienced anything 600 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:51,537 like it, but you felt it. I don't know how the hell you do that. It's not just 601 00:35:51,620 --> 00:35:55,337 graphics, it's everything. Everything together. I suppose some of the 602 00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:57,017 dialogue is really important to that. 603 00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:58,297 - Also the acting. They feel cold. 604 00:35:58,380 --> 00:35:59,317 - Yeah, that's right. 605 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,227 - And they feel desperate. There was that feeling of sort of - Yes 606 00:36:02,310 --> 00:36:04,630 - exodus. Like you're running away from something, 607 00:36:04,714 --> 00:36:06,797 that gives the game energy at the start. 608 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,727 - And it was at night. Oh man, it was just masterfully done. 609 00:36:08,810 --> 00:36:10,447 - And there was a big group of them. The other cont- - Yes. 610 00:36:10,530 --> 00:36:12,213 - You know, first game, you start off as a lone wolf. 611 00:36:12,297 --> 00:36:13,377 Suddenly you're in this big group. 612 00:36:13,460 --> 00:36:15,330 So it felt very different. 613 00:36:15,420 --> 00:36:19,617 - In Arthur's body, bullet wounds persist. So that, that temporal consistency- 614 00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:23,180 ...that's really important. Underweight Arthur looks gone, and 615 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:25,420 overweight Arthur gets a gut. 616 00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:30,280 And a fuller face. Again, those decisions that you make 617 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:35,200 reveal themselves in the game across time. And they're consistent. 618 00:36:35,860 --> 00:36:39,577 I don't know. I did not see many games do that. It must be difficult to 619 00:36:39,660 --> 00:36:43,517 do, but to give that level of care to the details in 620 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,020 that way across time and for specific 621 00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:50,097 graphical representations of things is incredible. 622 00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:50,927 - Yeah. I mean, I guess- 623 00:36:51,010 --> 00:36:56,140 - Do you have favorites where you were first like, "This is amazing?" 624 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,335 - I think all of it. I think the way the whole... To me, 625 00:36:58,419 --> 00:37:00,137 the thing that I would care about most 626 00:37:00,220 --> 00:37:03,337 was the way the whole thing sat together. You know, the fact that each of 627 00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:07,277 those, they all feel like they belong together with each 628 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,077 other. You made this cohesive, very, you know, 629 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,037 quote-unquote, "realistic" for a video game experience, and all the details 630 00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,540 feel like they mesh. - Well, for me, everything about the horse. 631 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,130 For a lot of people. Testicle shrinking included.