There is an ominous new development. And
ominous, I mean ominous. Humans can't
run a swarm of a thousand drones, but a
computer can. I'm quite worried that
we're now at one of these decision
points, inflection points in the war.
Historically, Ukraine were was this
small, really smart, really fast
innovator, and the Russians were, if you
will, big, slow, not very capable.
That's changed. That's a big threat.
They need some money and they need
technological help in order to counter
this set of waves coming. I'm concerned
that this is going to get much worse.
And I I'll give you my argument. Hello
everyone, it's Richard Angel. I'm in
Ukraine and welcome to the world
podcast. I hope you all had a wonderful
summer. I certainly did. Yalda will be
here next week with another interview.
And now that we are back, what better
way than to start with a chat with Eric
Schmidt. Eric Schmidt is the former CEO
of Google and the ex-chairman of the US
National Security Commission on
Artificial Intelligence. Lesser known,
however, is that he is a big supporter
of Ukraine, helping this country with
drone technology, and he's called what's
happening here the greatest revolution
in warfare in history.
>> Hello, Eric.
>> Yes, good to see you again, Richard.
>> It's good to see you. So, first of all,
why Ukraine? uh what draw drew you to
this conflict? Why not just sort of
watch from the sidelines like like so
many people are doing?
>> Um I had worked for the US Pentagon and
uh enjoyed it. Um I'm not a natural
military person, but I like the people
and I admire what they're doing in
Defense of Liberty. So when I saw the
what I consider to be war crimes being
committed by Russians against little old
ladies in cities, I thought I should do
something and try to help them.
And um this is a very different war from
what everybody thinks it is. And um the
rate of innovation is faster than I've
ever seen. And I work in tech which has
been the fastest ever seen anywhere. So,
you're watching a war that's really
driving the technological revolution in
in war in a way that I think people do
not appreciate. And I've been privileged
to watch it and try to help the
Ukrainians.
>> And I look forward to to getting into
all of that. And I really agree with
you. I don't think people truly
understand the kind of war that's being
fought here. I just came back from the
frontline area in the east and and I'll
tell you what I saw there and I would
love to your impressions but the Keefe
post a newspaper in this country had a
recent report and the headline was AI
drones from ex Google CEO helps Ukraine
down Russian shaheds the shaheds are
these one-way drones that uh that Russia
has been using great frequency and the
article went on Ukrainian military
sources says firm swiftbeat supplied
three drone types responsible for
downing about 90% of intercepted Russian
shaheds. Is that true? Are are your
drones downing 90% of the Russian
shahads?
>> I'd rather not get into any of the of
the war specifics of that nature. So,
let's try to talk at the general level,
not at the specific level. Um the the
key problem now goes something like
this.
So, first to understand the um
the battle, you think of a war as like
people shooting each other with guns
against each other with tanks and things
like that. The battlefield today is a no
man's land where nothing moves because
there are drones and anti- drones above
you. So, if you're in a hole, you look
up. The moment you get out of your hole,
within about three minutes, you're
likely to be spotted and dead.
Imagine what it's like on either side,
by the way, to be in that situation. So,
the humans are stuck.
And in the case of Ukrainians, they are
perpetually being bombed by these very
large glide bombs called KB bombs.
But the real threat is continuous and
ubiquitous drone war.
And the way drones work is it's people
tend to think of like AI and robots and
humanoids and so forth. Think of them
instead as little airplanes that are
having dog fights with each other. And
these little airplanes which are uh
traditionally battery powered or
gasoline powered run at a speed of about
100 to 150 miles an hour which is not
missile speed. And they come across and
then you have to hit them. And the way
you hit them is you basically build an
interceptor which both sides now have
and that interceptor seeks the other
drone. So it's drone anti- drone. Um for
the last year the Ukraine teams um there
have been quite a few companies in this
area have done a fantastic job of of
downing the so-called shaheds as you
describe them. Shahed means I think
peace in in Iranian. But in any case,
um, the jihads were developed by Iran.
They were used extensively against
Americans in the Iran war and then
they've been scaled by Russia. There is
an ominous new development. And ominous,
I mean ominous.
They're the Russians have taken the
Shaheds and they've added jet engines.
And what they do is they take these
little jet engines that they get from
China. Um, I looked online and they cost
say $5,000. So they're not expensive.
tiny. They're about hand size. Um they
run at 700 centigrade and they produce
plenty of power. And those drones, those
shahed enemy drones are going faster
than the current interceptors. So how do
you intercept a faster drone? Well, you
have to add your own jet engine to the
anti- drone. So this is called
adaptation.
And so eight months ago when the initial
drone attacks were working really well,
everyone was all smiling because
collectively we could depend defend
Ukraine against these shaheds. But as of
now there is no good defense. This gives
you a sense of how fast this is going.
>> So that number and I know you don't want
to get into specifics. 90% that could be
changing because they keep innovating.
They've added jet engines to the drone.
So that means your drone interceptors
have to get better and faster at finding
these these faster incoming Russia
drones.
>> A pretty extraordinary thing occurred.
The there's something called the SBU
which think of it is like the CIA or the
former KGB and they have a building and
one of these jet sha heads managed to
get in hit the building and go into the
building just in the right area where
the people were which is sort of
horrible. This is the CIA headquarters.
This is the KGB headquarters. This is a
big deal. And it turns out if you look
at that particular shahed, it um took
off near an area called Dora Pilia
Pilia, excuse me, um in the southeast
corner of uh occupied Ukraine in the
donuts and it flew pretty much a
straight line along the river right into
Kev. How did it get commanded in Kev?
That was the question. And the answer is
that they have a mesh network and the
Russians have developed a a essentially
think of it as a droneto drone
communication network. So they were able
to steer this thing straight into that
window probably from Russia. This means
that uh it's likely that in the next
little while um those things will be
flooding most of Ukraine or at least the
the eastern part which is where all the
fighting is. Now, why do I mention this?
One of the numbers that was said
publicly, I don't know if it's true, is
that the Russians have readied 80,000 of
these between now and December to hit to
hit our friends in Ukraine. All of this
is faster than I expected and I'm used
to the speed of this war. Uh when I was
there in May, the number was 10%. Now
it's 50% going to 80% of switch. So the
key thing to understand about this war
is it's not just innovation but it's
innovation to scale right because it's a
large country and also large war and
whoever runs plays the game of fastest
innovation to scale will win this war.
Notice and I want to be very clear here
the Americans are not part of this. Most
of the NATO countries are not part of
this. There's very little transfer of
this knowledge at the moment to the west
and yet Russia is a future enemy andor
fighter andor conflier um against NATO.
That's why NATO was was invented. How
could we not be capturing this knowledge
in the west to defend our own countries
um our own strategies? Right? It's it's
crazy. So I I totally agree with you as
I said earlier that people don't
understand the the dynamics of this war.
So let's let's help them understand it a
bit. So the frontline area I'm in I'm in
Kev right now in the capital which is in
the center of Ukraine quite quite far
away from Russia. Uh but I came back
from the east. I was in the city of
Harkfe which is close to the Russian
border and all along the Russian border
there is this area now that Ukrainians
call the kill zone. They call it the
kill zona. roughly 23,000 square miles
about the same size uh of Croatia or
West Virginia. So either a medium-sized
to small country or ai an American
state. And inside this kill zone, it is
what you were describing earlier. If
you're in a bunker or you're in a hole
and you get out within a few minutes,
you're probably going to be spotted by a
drone and killed. So where do you think
this is going? Is this kill zone getting
bigger because of the technology? Is all
of Ukraine going to become a kill zone?
Where where is this going?
>> I'm I'm concerned that this is going to
get much worse. And I I'll give you my
argument. And you you've been I was just
in Hark right before you, so I
understand what you saw.
So the key thing to understand about
this new kind of warfare is these
weapons are not toys.
You you look at them and oh, it's a cute
little drone and so forth. These are
very powerful uh kinetic bomb carrying
devices both uh drone and drone killer
devices. They are highly automated. They
swarm. Um so for example the Russians
have a recent technique where they'll
take five or 10 shahads and they move
them in a in a in various ways to try to
evade being hit. But let me give you I
think there are five reasons to think
it's going to get much worse.
The first is that the missiles, these
are ballistic missiles that are being
launched by Russia against Ukraine.
Ballistic missiles go up and down. They
don't go sideways.
Russia is increasing the the number of
those things and they are um they're on
the order of allegedly 1300 a year.
Every one of those carries an enormous
punch. They are block destroying. They
don't destroy just a building. they
destroy the whole block and the the
sound they make is terrifying. The
second thing is this adoption of jets.
So one way to understand how war will
emerge which I did not expect but I
think is pretty clear is that the entry
point of war is going to be these very
small jet engines because they allow you
to go very far very fast. They're very
hard to counter. You can carry a lot of
stuff. It is ultimately about mass.
Similarly, the ballistic and
anti-bballistic missiles as you know it
is again claimed in the open press I
don't know the real number that we the
US is down to 400 Patriot systems
because we used so many of them in the
Iran war we can't give them to anybody
else and certainly Ukraine needs them.
That's the argument. So those are two.
The third one is the scaling of these uh
so-called KB bombs. They're glide bombs.
They're launched from Russian jets
across the border and they silently hit
and they carry up to 3,000 kilograms and
they're precisiong guided using various
forms of GPS. There's no effective
counter to those. The fourth one is that
it's widely believed in Ukraine that
Russia will announce a mobilization
which is like a draft of another five or
six hundred people five or 600,000
people excuse me after the elections
which are occurring in Russia to the
degree there are elections in September.
And the fifth one that I don't think is
getting very much attention is that
there Russia has a a Starlink competitor
called Rusevet RSV
which sure looks like Starlink. Um and
it appears to be operational sometime
next year. At that point it'll be very
hard to stop the communication between
these airplanes, drones, and cruise
missiles that Russia's doing and
surface. So what's the reason I'm I'm
giving a long-winded answer is to say
that what's Ukraine going to do? They
believe that if Russia wins, they will
all be killed. Their families will be
destroyed and so forth. They're not
going to stop fighting. So you can
imagine a scenario where you end up with
what I'm going to call total war.
Everything in both countries is a target
for everything else. That's just
horrible. And I think that the lesson
when people go back and they look at
this war, they're going to say, "We
should have figured a way to get it
stopped sooner, right, through diplomacy
or pressure or whatever." But at the
moment, what I can say to you and your
audience is that Ukraine has the
capability of doing this. They have the
courage, which is impossible for me to
imagine. I don't have that kind of
courage to fight. They need Western
help. in particular, they need some
money and they need technological help
in order to counter this set of waves
coming that if that help comes, I think
Ukraine can hold
>> and they need it quickly. I'm here in
Kev. Those jet powered drones and the
ballistic missiles are landing almost
with impunity these days because they
don't have the Patriot interceptors.
It's really difficult. And I was out in
in the in the west right on the edge of
the kill zone and they're just using
fishing line. They're using old fishing
nets and hanging them between trees or
between posts hoping that these drones
will, you know, get caught up in them
and they won't explode. So they're using
very basic technologies.
>> It's important to say that there are
different layers of the war. So I again
I'm new to this. Wars are more than one
weapon and one system. They're really
layers. there. Everyone knows about the
small drone. They're so-called
first-person view drones. Uh they use
fiber optics. Those are used to
essentially attack infiltration across
the line. The Russians tactic on the
front, the kill zone, as you say, is
they order these very unlucky uh Russian
uh army members essentially to run
across fields. Um they're often very
exposed and the Ukrainians kill them.
The death rate on the Russia side is
horrible. It's just horrible. And these
are human beings, too. Um, and the the
estimates of the of the rate of of death
on the Russian side right now are the
highest they've ever been. So, the
Ukraine has to because they don't have
as many people, they have to be both
morally but also strategically more
careful. So the Ukrainians tend to hide
from that and then when they see their
enemy they they shoot them or destroy
them. Um the next layer is the KB bombs,
the glide bombs which are responsible
for many many deaths on the front lines
because these poor Ukrainians are
sitting in their holes and the KB bombs
are just pounding around them and you
can imagine the PTSD if they survive.
Then the next layer is the shahed layer
which I was describing which gives you
range but not speed but it's fast enough
can't be countered. And then the biggest
of all is the ballistic missile. What's
interesting about that little hierarchy
is you're also going up a cost
hierarchy. So the first person view
drones are $600 $800 with fiber $1,000.
They're inexpensive but they don't go
that far. Whereas the ballistic
missiles, the US numbers are thought to
be around three or4 million dollars a
missile. I don't know the Russian
numbers, but let's assume it's a similar
number, maybe half that. So you don't
have as many. So you have a lot, think
of it as you have a lot of bullets and
not very many many bombs. And so the
bullets in this war are largely these
FPV drones and as you go up, you get to
these very very expensive bombs. the
bombs um and they are used to different
for different tactics. The bombs are
essentially being used to terrify the
the the populace of Ukraine and also to
destroy key infrastructure. Um the jeta
heads are are being used in many many
cruel ways including hitting you know
children in in kindergartens and things
like that.
>> They they certainly are. I was at a
school in a bunker in a kindergarten, a
school that was built as a bunker
because of these bombs. And actually, we
had to scramble for cover because there
were four glide bombs ahead of us. And
these are big, as you say, they're just
big bombs with wings attached to them
and they're extraordinarily powerful.
One of the things that's the hardest is
to I've been I've watched some of their
command centers and they have built the
equivalent of a Google Maps which shows
you what's going on in the war. Okay.
Perfectly reasonable. I I know what
Google Maps is. And so you see an
airplane, a Russian airplane which they
have on on their system. They get it
through various sensors like radars and
then you can see the glide bomb
released. And they even can detect what
kind of glide bomb it is. And your heart
sinks when you realize that they know
exactly where it's going and they have
no idea when I where it's hitting. When
I was in Kev most recently, we left. We
were in and out. And they said, "You
have to leave now." And I said, "Why?"
"Because there are two bombers that have
been launched that are going to be
arrived at 3:00 a.m. and you need to be
out of here by them." And I said, "No
problem. I'm leaving." But these poor
people in Kev were were then in shelters
all night because of these bombers
coming in. They The problem is they know
where they are, but they don't have a
good way to stop them.
>> Yeah. They're very powerful, as you
said. Imagine a bomb that's dropped from
a plane, but they attach wings to it.
So, you can you drop the bomb from a
jet, the wings pop out, and it goes and
goes and goes and and comes down with
extraordinary force. I I want to also
talk about AI.
AI is increasingly being used in by both
sides in this conflict. There was a
report recently in the New York Times
that a Russian AI enabled bomb with an
Nvidia chip inside hit a gas station and
that the last
bit of the the drone's journey was
commanded by AI. That at the end of the
day AI picked the target. Is that where
this is going? How is AI increasingly
being involved in this in this war?
>> Um there's something called final
targeting. And the way to understand it
and this has been true of weapons for a
long time is think of it as um
green, yellow, red.
And what the weapon does is it has a
camera and it's green and then it
basically says yellow means I'm ready to
arm
you. Then the human presses a button and
then it locks on the target and as the
target moves it moves to hit the target
and that final acquisition of the target
is the kind of thing you're talking
about. In the particular report I read,
they claimed that this was actually done
completely automatically.
So in other words, the human didn't
press the button.
This is not AI. This is essentially just
computer vision, right? You know what
you're looking for. You see it in the
camera, right? So you I'll use a
terrible example. You build a weapon to
to to look at humans and target humans
and those hum those human fighters look
like people. It's not very difficult to
detect a human walking on a field and
then target them automatically.
It is however a violation of the laws of
war to do that without human the human
invention that I was describing. So it's
it's perfectly possible that Russia
built such a system using um computer
vision. I'll give you another example,
another cruel example. U it would be
relatively easy to make a gun that only
shot people in the face.
I'm not advocating this. Please don't do
it, Richard. But the important point is
you have a scope, you see the face, you
you computers can see faces very well
and then it automatically shoots off.
You see my point?
>> So this would be a bomb that was
basically loaded with images. It said
hit this kind of target and when you
find one, hit it. Don't hit a cow, hit a
person.
>> Yeah. Yes. Choose choose the person, not
the cow. Choose the tank, not the car.
>> Uh choose the missile launcher, not the
truck. Uh that's that's very
wellestablished technology. It's been
around for 20 years in in computing.
It's what you use every day when you
unlock your iPhone or your Android phone
with a face lock. It's the same
technology. It's broadly available.
AI refers to learning
and AI means you're learning and
predicting things. AI is not just
computers being smarter at targeting.
And we have not yet seen its use in this
war. What we've seen is automation,
which is what you would expect. My own
view
is actually more complicated than that.
I think that what you're going to see is
first you're going to see these
automatically targeting weapons. And
remember, the automatic targeting weapon
will also automatically target the other
guy's weapon. So, in other words,
basically roam around, look for a bad
drone, and shoot that drone and attack
it. Just hit it. I think we're going to
see a lot of that uh on both sides
because if you think of it as a drone
anti- drone war, that's going to get
automated.
So, now the next question is, let's say
both sides have that, and I think at the
rate we're going, both Ukraine and
Russia will have that. How will they
behave?
Well, humans can't run a swarm of a
thousand drones, but a computer can. So,
what I think will happen is computers
will develop war plans within a swarm.
So, I'm trying to be as technically
correct as possible. It will use
reinforcement learning to learn how to
best attack the enemy, the target, or
what have you. And that those algorithms
will be super secret.
And my own hope, which is just a hope,
and you know, if you think I'm I'm
naive, that's okay, is that when both
sides have that, neither side will be
willing to attack the other because they
don't know what the other side will do
because the the computer algorithms are
so powerful. That's my hope.
>> An AI mutually assured destruction. But
let let's talk a bit for this this
automated shooting as you you described
it in a in an interview with Naom
magazine. You said in the future, the
future will entail humans on the loop
rather than always in the loop.
Supervising, auditing, and intervening
when something looks wrong, but not
necessarily authorizing each individual
shot. [snorts]
I think that's what you were just
talking about where they're going to be
drones. They're going to have
pre-programmed targets inside of them,
and when they see that target, they're
not going to wait for authorization from
a person. They're just going to take the
shot because they don't have time
necessarily to do it. You you think
that's that's coming in a sense that's
already here? I
>> I think it's highly likely and um it's
already interpreted in the United States
that if a human knows or I helped write
this when I worked for the Pentagon, so
I know what the rule is. Basically,
under US law, you can't just launch the
thing and wander around looking for
targets for days. But if you've got real
intelligence and a human is watching, it
allows for that automation within that.
You can use the word AI. I'm going to
use the technically correct term, which
is it's an automated activity, looking,
seeking, hitting, defending, what have
you. And my guess is that's going to be
the outcome for us um for the west. Um
it should work. You would hope that
there's some limitations.
>> That is what I believe. Uh I think that
that will be the NATO rule. Um I believe
quite strongly that Russia will not
adhere to this and China will not adhere
to this which is a separate set of moral
issues. So if we're in this world of
automated uh strikes which is a a a new
world, a new kind of warfare and you
were talking about how that's not really
AI warfare. AI warfare is even more
complicated, is more profound because it
it learns. Um,
are we starting to see that on the on
the battlefield where the the systems
are learning from themselves and
teaching themselves lessons and getting
better and feeding back into the to the
loop so that they can drone swarms can
coordinate, they can figure out what
worked, didn't figure out what worked,
and improve on the spot learning war
fighting machines. So, we have not seen
that yet, but I expect it to be soon.
And let me give you the argument. Russia
now has full video, full mesh networks,
and full reports of how well their
weapons are doing. It is a natural next
step for them to learn and improve their
algorithms. Right? I'm not advocating.
I'm just saying it it it don't be
fooled. these guys are are very
committed to destroying Ukraine. There's
every reason to think that they're in
they're either in that learning loop or
they're beginning to. And by
[clears throat] the way, the widespread
use of large language models um uh as
you know, China releases open- source
models which are very very capable of
doing this. There's some evidence uh
there have been some reports about
Russia using those models. Um I can't my
myself I cannot validate if those
reports are true but it sure looks like
the Chinese and the Chinese are either
giving or helping the Russia to do this
right on the Ukrainian side I've been
trying to get people in Ukraine to
understand this AI part but one they're
in a war and two this AI stuff is hard
right so this is a good example where
the west could really help Ukraine if we
wanted to
>> you mentioned right at the top of our
conversation that you had a maybe
hopeful output that a hopeful outlook
that AI war could be so bad for everyone
that there's a an incentive to never
launch it like what happened with with
nuclear weapons after they were used.
But what concerns me and I I'd love to
hear what you think about this is when
nuclear weapons were developed during
World War II, the the West developed
them for one reason, because they were
worried the Nazis were going to get them
first. And they were developed by people
who knew they were creating an an
abominable weapon that could destroy
humanity. And they immediately started
putting controls on it even before it
was done. AI has a different origin
story. It's an efficiency machine. It's
it goes back to winning games, trying to
do things within a certain framework,
within a certain set of rules better and
faster than a human. and it's not being
built in the same way with the same
amount of fear or concerns. So the
difference in the origin story does that
mean we're not going to be able to
control AI warfare the same way we are
well we're still struggling to control
nuclear warfare although we've never had
another there's never been a use of
nuclear weapons since World War II. Do
you worry about that that that we're
building the system without the same
level of of fear concern and oversight?
Well, it may be that Russia Ukraine will
be the catalyst for this understanding
of the point that you just made. If you
look at the history of nuclear
deterrence, we did a bomb in 45. Uh
Soviet Union did a bomb in 49. There was
a 4-year period during which you must
you and I understand that there were
people who who uh leaked the information
from Los Alamos to to Russia to give
them a head start. um today this is a
war of innovation that's occurring in
days not years and so what I've seen in
the war is that something new will come
out and within three or four months the
other side has managed to figure out a
way to blunt it to diminish it and so
forth. So it looks like it's a war of
adaptation in that this group does
something then then the response is
adaptation and then it's back and forth.
So one way to understand the the nature
of this war is it's a race of innovation
up this stack that I'm describing.
So in AI all AI could do would be to
make that whole cycle faster right
because AI makes things smarter faster
you move quicker you design faster and
so forth. So the question is if it's
applied uniformally, does it ultimately
become a deterrent to both? Or let's say
that both have it and the Russians
decide that the Ukrainians don't know
something that they do and they take a
risk. Well, that could be a great
tragedy, right, for both sides.
>> And finally, thank you for for your
time. could go on for for a long time
and there's many other things but if I
can ask one societal question because
this we've been talking about war and
Ukraine are you worried about where AI
is going and where it's going to take us
as as human beings people are more and
more dependent on it people are more
using it in their everyday lives are you
are you worried about it sort of having
a an effect on society making people
use it like a like a crutch like a
mental crutch or uh breaking down p
personal interpersonal relations. Are
you worried about its societal impacts,
not just its impacts on on war?
Um I worry about AI over everything. But
first, I am thankful AI is arriving
because AI will allow us to solve an
awful lot of problems. Um in the last
this summer, there were 10 major math
problems that were thought unsolvable
that were solved by AI. That's a big
deal. Um if you look at efficiency,
energy use, climate change, health,
there are people who are my friends who
believe that we can solve the majority
of human diseases within the la next 20
years. Sign me up for that. So
the likely outcome of AI is the same as
all previous technologies. It's broadly
helpful and it has issues that have to
get dealt with. you you listed a good
list, but you listed this year's list.
You can be quite sure that next year
there'll be more concerns as there's
more adoption. Um, mine is the impact on
children. I think it's it's I I tend to
be fairly libertarian. These are adults.
They can sort themselves out, but kids
are not adults and they need to be
protected from the the downsides of AI.
That's an example. Um, if you look at
the notion of conflict, um, the first
wars are likely to be cyber attacks and
we're likely to see that from everyone,
including the US, I would guess, uh,
because the tools have gotten so
powerful. The industry has gotten
smarter and now the industry doesn't
release them until the basic systems
have been, if you will, pressurized
against their own self attack. In other
words, they release it to the special
people to make sure their systems like
Apple, Google, whatever are not
compromised and then the general public
gets active. That's a good thing. So,
we're learning how as a society how to
manage the downside. I'm actually to be
very clear a very strong optimist that
all the concerns that you described uh
can be overcome. I don't see them as
permanent. Um, and let me just finish by
saying that part of the reason I wanted
to talk to you on camera in addition to
being your incredible coverage and
service of this war and other wars is
that I'm quite worried that we're now at
one of these decision points, inflection
points in the war. It's not just the
jetahheads which we discussed at the
beginning. It's really the sum of
everything. Historically, Ukraine were
was this small, really smart, really
fast innovator. And the Russians were,
if you will, big, slow, not very
capable. That's changed. That's a big
threat. And if you believe in democracy,
as I do, and you believe that you have
to fight for democracy, as I do, this is
an ominous development. All of us need
to recognize that wars are dynamic and
whatever you thought last month has
changed, these are important new
developments that everybody needs to
understand. If you're not doing
something to address this, then when you
when the bad outcome occurs, don't
complain.
>> Eric, great conversation. Thank you very
much. I enjoyed it and I'm sure uh the
people who are listening and watching
will have found it tremendously
interesting as well. Thanks very much.
>> Okay. Thank you, Richard.
>> That was Eric Schmidt. I hope you
enjoyed it. I certainly did. If you want
to send us questions, you have comments,
please do. You can always reach us at
the worlds sky.uk. Until next time.