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- You cannot control what
a great military event

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can set loose. More battle
casualties than US forces had

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suffered in every war combined
down to that point happened in two

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days. Two and a half months after
that, George B. McClellan's army

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engaged with Lee's army in what came to be
called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond,

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36,000 casualties.
So those two together just

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showed that this was gonna
be on a totally different

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scale. He added
a psychological twist. What,

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what Grant envisioned his doing, and
Sheridan actually did it in the Shenandoah

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Valley before Sherman did
it in Georgia, is go into an

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agriculturally productive area,
burn the mills, kill the livestock,

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destroy the crops, lay waste to it so that
it can't be a logistical support of the

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Confederacy anymore. Sheridan did it
in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman

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did it in Georgia. But Sherman said,
"But I'm also going to break them

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psychologically. I'm gonna show them that
my army can go wherever it wants to go

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whenever it wants to go, and there's
nothing Jefferson Davis can do about it."

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The great forces are all that matters
and individuals don't really matter notion

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of history I think is ridiculous.
Individuals really matter. For the

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United States, Lincoln and Grant
matter beyond calculation-

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... in this war.
And on the Confederate side,

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if you take Lee out of the picture, the

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war doesn't last nearly as long as it
does. In terms of causation, if you take

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slavery out of the picture,
there is no Civil War, period.

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- The following is a conversation
with Gary Gallagher, a

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historian of the American Civil War.

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This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To
support it, please check out our sponsors

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in the description where you can
also find links to contact me,

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ask questions, give feedback,
and so on. And now, dear

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friends, here's Gary Gallagher.
The American Civil War broke out in 1861.

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What were the causes of the Civil War?
Could it have been

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avoided, or was it inevitable?

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- I don't know if anything is inevitable
in history, but it's certainly safe to say

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that the conditions were
in place to make it possible-

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... by the winter of 1860, '61,
and the conditions that made it possible

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were all related to the
institution of slavery and

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its effects both in the states where
slavery was allowed and the states

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where it was not allowed.
And there had been a series of tensions

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that grew in the decade
preceding the 1850s.

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It's not that one side wants to get
rid of slavery and the other side

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wants to protect slavery. I'm talking
about the white people in the United

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States now who would be
making the political decisions.

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It's a question of whether slavery was
going to be able to expand into federal

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territories. That is what really created

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the starkest difference
between the two sections in the

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1850s, even in the late 1840s.
The issues that came to most, uh,

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perilous a point in the view of many
people then had to do with whether slavery

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would be allowed only where it already
existed, or would it be allowed to

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expand. If it could expand,
then it seemed that it might

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be conceivable at some point
even that the slaveholding states

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could end up with a majority.
They were in a minority by 1860,

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'61 and feeling beleaguered,
feeling threatened. They'd long since lost

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the population race to the free states.

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Early in the nation, the most powerful
states were slaveholding states.

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Virginia was by far the most
important state. Four of the first five

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presidents were from Virginia,
all slaveholders, all prominent

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members of the slaveholding class. Those
days were long gone by the late 1850s.

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- So that's an important thing to say.
It wasn't before the Civil

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War a discussion about abolishing
slavery. It's about whether

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slavery, the institution
of slavery should be expanded.

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- Allowed to expand into federal
territories. There, there is a portion

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of the white population
that is adamantly in favor of

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getting rid of slavery immediately.
The abolitionists, they...

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There was even a political party

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called the Liberty Party, that ran
a candidate in 1840 and they got a handful

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of thousand votes. They reached
their high point in 1844. They got about

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two and a half percent of the vote.

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The abolitionists are a tiny minority
among the— even in the North, tiny

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minority among the white people
of the United States. The African

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American population, nearly
four million of them by 1860, of

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course, would have embraced it
instantly and yearned for it. But in

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the white population,
the abolitionists are a tiny minority.

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They are much despised

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even across much of the North
because they were seen as agitators

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who roiled the Union
and deepened rifts that might

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bring a significant political break.

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- So how did this escalate
to a civil war, this

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almost policy discussion about
the institution of slavery? How did it

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actually escalate?

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- It escalated into a civil war
because in the presidential election of

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1860... There'd been two party
systems in the United States. The first

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party system, the Republicans,
the Jeffersonian Republicans versus

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the Federalists.

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After that, there was, the two
parties were the Whig Party against the

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Democratic Party. The Democratic Party
grew out of the Jeffersonian Republican

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Party. It's the same party.

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The Whig Party foundered to a significant
degree on the issue of slavery.

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How do you maintain a national
party that has a wing in the Southern

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states and has a wing

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in the Northern free states that
can handle the issue of slavery?

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The Democrats managed to do that.
The Whigs could not do it, and so the Whig

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Party ran their last candidate
in 1852, presidential candidate,

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significant candidate.
And the Republican Party emerged in the

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mid-1850s, took most of the old
Whigs into the Republican

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ranks and one of the Republican,
the key Republican platform plank

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was no expansion of slavery
into the territories.

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Not abolish slavery, no expansion.
That was the key in

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1856 when they ran their first
candidate. In 1860, that

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is again the key plank in the Republican
platform. The Republican platform in

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1860 says where slavery exists it will
continue, but it cannot expand into the

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territories. When white Southerners
saw that, that meant that

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they were doomed to become an increasingly

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minority section in the nation,
and you would have a federal

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government increasingly dominated by the
free states that could then do the one

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thing that the white South could
not countenance, and that is

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tamper with the institution
of slavery in the South.

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The presidential election of 1860
brought the destruction of the

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last national party, which
was the Democrats. They couldn't even

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settle on a candidate, so you end up with
a Northern Democratic candidate running,

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Stephen A. Douglas,
and a Southern candidate running. The

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convention fractured and John C.
Breckinridge ran on the, on the Southern

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Democrat platform. You had
a Unionist candidate running who just

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didn't wanna talk about slavery, let's
talk about the Union, and you had Lincoln

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running as a Republican. When Lincoln
won, the white South looked at Lincoln

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winning. Here's a guy who
has said that he doesn't

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think slavery would expand,
but he'd said more than that. He

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scared the white South more because
in 1858, both Lincoln and William

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Henry Seward, these are two
prominent, prominent Republicans,

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had said basically in separate
speeches, the House Divided Speech

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on Lincoln's part, the Irrepressible
Conflict Speech on Seward's part,

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that the nation could not continue
in the long term half slave and half free.

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And everybody in the South knew
which way they wanted it to be. They

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would want it to be no slavery.
And so Lincoln's election

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scared the white South
enough so that seven of the 15

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slave-holding states seceded
in response to Lincoln's election.

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They seceded between December 20th,
when South Carolina went out,

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and the end of February.
You had the deep South went out.

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- What was the general view amongst
the populace towards slavery? Let's

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kind of lay it out. Let's you know,
for the audience looking back,

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let's put ourselves
in the mind space of how people

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saw the world, how people saw slavery,
how people saw African Americans.

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- Well, the baseline among
the white Americans, there were about

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31, shade more than 31 million
Americans in 1860 for the census of 1860.

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About four million of them
were African Americans,

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three and a half million of those
enslaved in the South. Anyway,

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among the white population,

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the average attitude toward
Black people is what we would call

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profoundly prejudiced.
Doesn't matter whether you...

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A lot of people think this is a

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Southern white thing.
They're the only ones who were prejudiced.

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By our standards, the overwhelming
majority of people in the free states

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were also deeply prejudiced.
It's important to

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keep in mind that attitudes towards
slavery and attitudes toward race

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do not, they're not necessarily the same.
I mean, you could be against

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slavery and still be prejudiced against
Black people. By our standards, many

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abolitionists were prejudiced
against Black people. They...

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But the overwhelming
majority of the white North,

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in the North, often had a hard time
getting my students to understand

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the demographics in 1860. The free
states in 1860 were more than 98% white.

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98% white. African Americans are a tiny

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minority in the free states.
Black people lived in the 15 slaveholding

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states in 1860.
Most of the white North, by our

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standards, was very prejudiced.
They were against the expansion of

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slavery into the territories because
they thought that would circumscribe

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white opportunities to make an economic
life in these federal territories,

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00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:04,920
and they didn't want that to happen.
About 45% of the people who lived

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00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:08,677
in the free states were Democrats.
Most Democrats had no problem with

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slavery. I mean, absolutely no
problem with the institution of

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slavery. There would be more
problems among Republicans,

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especially with extension of slavery,
although many Democrats, white

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Democrats in the North
were against that as well.

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The white South was overwhelmingly
in favor of slavery. You

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often read the argument, the kind
of neo-Confederate argument that

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00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,057
they'll talk about how most Confederate
soldiers didn't own slaves. That's true.

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The a large majority of families
in the South did not own a single slave.

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00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:43,257
But all white Southerners had a stake
in slavery. They had a stake in

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00:10:43,340 --> 00:10:45,180
it as a form of labor control,

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but more important than that, they
had a stake in it as a means of social

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control. They knew, no matter what
they said later in the Jim Crow era of

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how happy Black people were
in the institution of slavery,

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they knew that Black people,

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of course, did not want to be enslaved,
and they were afraid of what would happen

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if they weren't enslaved anymore. They had
in the backs of their minds Haiti. Is that

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what's gonna... If you live in one of the
coastal districts of South Carolina where

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90% of the residents are enslaved
and you're a white person, you

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00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,197
probably don't sleep all that soundly
at night if you think there's any

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chance that the Black people are not
gonna remain under the control of the

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white people. So all white people
in the South had a stake in slavery,

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00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:31,177
not just some. All of them did,
and there were all kinds of ways that

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it would go back and forth.
If you were a modest

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farmer and grew a little bit of cotton,
you didn't have your own cotton gin,

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00:11:38,602 --> 00:11:42,997
you... but your more wealthy neighbor had
a gin, could gin your cotton there, and

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00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,977
then you would take your turn on the slave
patrol, the slave patrols. So there's a

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00:11:47,060 --> 00:11:49,620
reciprocity in that regard.

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00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:53,980
- This is perhaps a bit outside
the scope of what we'll talk about today,

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00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,957
but just to lay out the context
on slavery in general in human

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00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,837
history, we should say that slavery was

187
00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,137
ubiquitous. It existed
in virtually every major

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00:12:05,220 --> 00:12:08,040
civilization in the history of humans.

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00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,597
Mesopotamia, Egypt, Greece,
Rome, China, the Islamic

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00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,900
world, Africa, the Americas,
North and South America.

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We should also say something that,
as I was looking into this,

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00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:25,440
another big topic, which is the Atlantic
slave trade. And it was surprising to me,

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00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,933
the stat I wasn't aware of, I would
venture to say most Americans probably

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00:12:30,016 --> 00:12:35,732
don't know, that only 4% of African
slaves were brought to North America,

195
00:12:35,815 --> 00:12:39,440
to the United States.
- Brazil is the main destination.

196
00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:43,577
- Brazil, the Caribbean
was over 90%, 4.9 million in

197
00:12:43,660 --> 00:12:45,760
Brazil, 4 million in the Caribbean,

198
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,190
and it was also the last of the Americas
to abolish the slave trade. So

199
00:12:50,560 --> 00:12:55,880
only 4% of the Atlantic slave trade
went to the United States. So there's--

200
00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,980
the story of human slavery
is one that reaches deep

201
00:13:02,060 --> 00:13:05,740
into our history
and geographically is much

202
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,620
larger than we often study
in the context of the United States.

203
00:13:09,940 --> 00:13:13,837
- One thing the war, the Civil War, which
I'll just call the war for the rest of

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00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,300
our discussion, I mean,
one thing it did was end slavery

205
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,500
in four years in the United States.

206
00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:26,019
Whereas in the absence of that war,
it might have gone on for decades.

207
00:13:26,102 --> 00:13:26,617
I think the

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00:13:26,700 --> 00:13:30,397
United States would have had the
ignominious distinction of being the last

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00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,037
place to get rid of slavery,
would have been after Brazil,

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00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:34,397
would have been after Spanish

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00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,277
Cuba, because it was thriving
in the United States in 1860. It was

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00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,300
making the transition
from cash crop agriculture-

213
00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,397
... to other, to industrial
applications and other applications

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00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:53,480
growing of non-- not growing, growing
just cotton and rice and sugar. It was--

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00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:58,377
There was a time in the literature
when people argued that the war

216
00:13:58,460 --> 00:14:01,531
was needless, the Civil War was needless
because slavery was on its way out.

217
00:14:01,614 --> 00:14:02,257
That's absolutely

218
00:14:02,340 --> 00:14:06,257
wrong. It was not on its way out. It
was thriving. Lincoln said at one point he

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00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:10,237
thought it might have lasted another
fifty years, and I don't know how many

220
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years it would have lasted, but I think
it would have lasted longer than it did

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in either Cuba or Brazil if it hadn't,
if the war hadn't taken place.

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- So slavery was flourishing in the
United States from- - Flourishing.

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00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,980
-... from an economics
perspective-... especially.

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- The wealthiest part...
The 1860 census is our

225
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:31,877
friend, and it tells us that
the people who controlled the

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00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,937
most wealth in the United States were
slaveholders, and their property in

227
00:14:36,020 --> 00:14:39,690
slaves alone, not their other
holdings, not their land holdings,

228
00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:45,620
just property in slaves were valued
at about three billion dollars. The value

229
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:49,810
of all industries, all railroads,
all of that put together,

230
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fewer than two point five billion dollars.
So the people who controlled the most

231
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:58,000
wealth, by far,
were the slaveholding class.

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- So it was the most valuable
industry in the United States,

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00:15:02,900 --> 00:15:04,490
and perhaps it is the reason,

234
00:15:05,380 --> 00:15:09,520
Again, a bit out of scope,
but maybe it helps lay out the land.

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00:15:10,740 --> 00:15:13,160
Let's look at the nineteenth century. So

236
00:15:14,340 --> 00:15:18,157
most slave-owning societies
of the era were able to abolish slavery

237
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,860
without people dying at the mass
scale that we'll discuss. So

238
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Britain freed eight hundred
thousand slaves in 1833-

239
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:32,977
... By buying their freedom. Russia freed
twenty-three million serfs in 1861 with

240
00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:36,600
a decree, so legally. Brazil, which

241
00:15:36,700 --> 00:15:40,430
imported more than ten times as many
enslaved Africans as the United

242
00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:45,740
States, abolished slavery in 1888
through basic ordinary legislation.

243
00:15:46,700 --> 00:15:50,257
No violence.
Why did the US have a civil war

244
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:54,057
with an estimated seven hundred
and fifty thousand people dead in

245
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:55,390
order to abolish slavery?

246
00:15:55,620 --> 00:15:59,019
- Yes. That's-- Let's talk just for a
second about the seven hundred and fifty

247
00:15:59,103 --> 00:15:59,936
thousand

248
00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:03,917
dead soldiers we're talking about.
The number for years was six

249
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:08,500
hundred and eighteen thousand,
and that's been revised lately.

250
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,989
I think we're probably certainly
more than seven hundred thousand.

251
00:16:12,072 --> 00:16:13,237
By far the bloodiest war in,

252
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,240
in our history as a percentage
of the population off the charts,

253
00:16:17,340 --> 00:16:21,157
by far the bloodiest. I think
there's a big difference between Great

254
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,057
Britain doing it and the United States
doing it, is Great Britain did it in other

255
00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:30,760
places. There weren't millions of enslaved
people in Great Britain at the time.

256
00:16:31,460 --> 00:16:35,257
It's-- I think, for them, it might
have been a little bit easier to free

257
00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:39,177
enslaved people who don't live among
you than it... In the United States,

258
00:16:39,260 --> 00:16:42,493
the ante is up for the Confederacy because
they, the enslaved people lived here,

259
00:16:42,577 --> 00:16:43,217
and I think they

260
00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,957
were, a lot of them were afraid of them
and what would happen if they weren't

261
00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,957
enslaved anymore. The war goes
from... It doesn't begin as a

262
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,020
war to end slavery.
There's a major shift in the war,

263
00:16:54,660 --> 00:16:58,497
begins in the summer of 1862,
where you add to the

264
00:16:58,580 --> 00:17:02,117
war. The war aim for the United
States initially is to suppress the

265
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,057
rebellion, which is what they
called this. They didn't call

266
00:17:06,140 --> 00:17:10,190
it the Civil War for the most part during
the war. It's the War of the Rebellion.

267
00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:14,817
That's the goal initially.
As the war goes on and becomes costlier

268
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,737
and more all-encompassing, they decide
that they're not gonna be able to suppress

269
00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:21,857
the rebellion unless they
also strike at slavery, because

270
00:17:21,940 --> 00:17:25,850
slavery underpins the Confederate
war-making capacity.

271
00:17:26,540 --> 00:17:30,387
You have enslaved labor that keeps the
economy going and allows the Confederacy

272
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:34,237
to mobilize between eighty-five
and ninety percent of all their white

273
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,537
military-aged males. It's
an astonishing mobilization. It's only

274
00:17:37,620 --> 00:17:41,197
possible because enslaved labor keeps
the economy going. If you take that

275
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,116
enslaved labor away, it deals
a significant blow to the Confederate

276
00:17:46,199 --> 00:17:50,800
economy and, and by extension, to its
ability to wage a nineteenth century war.

277
00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:56,380
- So the Emancipation Proclamation
was in part a military strategy.

278
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,640
- Abraham Lincoln based it entirely

279
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,277
on his war-making power
as commander-in-chief in a time of open

280
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,177
rebellion. His inclination,
there's no-- He's often been criticized

281
00:18:08,260 --> 00:18:11,577
for not including the soaring
language he was capable of in the

282
00:18:11,660 --> 00:18:15,277
Emancipation Proclamation.
One historian likened it to a bill of

283
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,257
lading. It had all the soaring
language of a bill of lading. He

284
00:18:19,340 --> 00:18:23,040
did that on purpose. He did it because he,

285
00:18:23,580 --> 00:18:27,277
he doesn't have the power to strike
at slavery in the absence of a war. The

286
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:28,640
president doesn't. And

287
00:18:29,660 --> 00:18:33,017
he did it because he knows
that he can't win the war with only

288
00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:36,657
Republicans in the army. He needs to keep
Democrats on board with the war as well.

289
00:18:36,740 --> 00:18:40,600
They're not in favor of emancipation.
The one way that they might accept it

290
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,157
is as a tool to help achieve union, and

291
00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,077
to do that we've got to strike
at the rebels this way, strike at

292
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,180
slavery. That will hurt their war effort,
and it will also punish the people who

293
00:18:52,263 --> 00:18:56,780
brought on the war, and that would make...
So Lincoln hoped that by basing it

294
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,600
strictly on his war power,
it might be more widely accepted

295
00:19:01,420 --> 00:19:05,297
across all parts of the
loyal states and not as

296
00:19:05,380 --> 00:19:09,340
controversial as it was. It was still
intensely controversial. It alienated

297
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:13,317
many Democrats when he issued it,
who said, "You're changing what this

298
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,197
war is about. We're willing to shed
our blood and maybe risk our lives to

299
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:21,177
restore the union of the founders.
I'm not gonna risk my life to

300
00:19:21,260 --> 00:19:25,580
free a Black person." That's a very,
very common attitude among Democrats.

301
00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,860
- So what did the Emancipation
Proclamation actually do? It

302
00:19:30,020 --> 00:19:35,260
emphasized the freeing
of slaves in the South.

303
00:19:35,820 --> 00:19:39,637
- It's even more complicated than that.
The only place that Lincoln said he had

304
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:45,217
the power as the war leader
to strike at slavery is where the

305
00:19:45,300 --> 00:19:49,000
rebels were actually still
in rebellion and in control. So

306
00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:53,080
any place where the US Army was in
control, any place-- He said that

307
00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:56,937
it is in essence United States
territory now. I can't free them there

308
00:19:57,020 --> 00:20:00,860
because I don't have the power. I can
only free them where we don't have the

309
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,837
power. So he exempted parts
of states and areas in the South

310
00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,860
that it didn't apply to as of the
moment he signed it. Going forward,

311
00:20:10,540 --> 00:20:14,477
any place that the United States Army
went where it hadn't been on January 1st,

312
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:20,437
1863, the Emancipation Proclamation
applied and enslaved people would be

313
00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,217
freed by it. At the, literally
at the time he signed it, he didn't free

314
00:20:24,300 --> 00:20:27,542
anybody because he's only saying, "I
can free them where we're not in control.

315
00:20:27,626 --> 00:20:31,476
We have to be in control for this to have
effect and for this to have power."

316
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:38,720
- So in part, this is why the army was the
boundary which the freeing was happening.

317
00:20:39,260 --> 00:20:41,166
- It's, it's,
it's absolutely the boundary,

318
00:20:41,249 --> 00:20:43,057
and Congress had already passed what was

319
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:47,700
called the Second Confiscation Act.
It passed this in July of 1862

320
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,287
that announced that all
enslaved people belonging

321
00:20:52,370 --> 00:20:55,977
to rebels were free. It didn't apply

322
00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:59,657
to people who could prove they were
unionists living in the South and owned

323
00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:02,616
slaves. Lincoln didn't make
that distinction in the Emancipation

324
00:21:02,699 --> 00:21:07,140
Proclamation. His proclamation is broader
than the Second Confiscation Act was.

325
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:11,800
- Okay. There's so many tangents we
can take, but let's zoom out once again.

326
00:21:12,580 --> 00:21:16,557
There's a difference between cause, as
you've talked about, cause and motivation.

327
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,100
- Absolutely. - Quite a large number
of people volunteered to fight.

328
00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:24,917
- In fact, a majority of all
the soldiers who fought on both

329
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,920
sides were volunteers during
the Civil War. About 3 million

330
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,320
served, 2.2 million in the United States,
800, 900,000 in the Confederacy.

331
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,049
It's, again, I talk about things that are
hard to get students to understand.

332
00:21:39,132 --> 00:21:39,897
This is one of them.

333
00:21:39,980 --> 00:21:43,897
They have to separate...
The causation and motivation are

334
00:21:43,980 --> 00:21:47,937
often conflated, and not just by students
but also by lots of talking heads on

335
00:21:48,020 --> 00:21:51,837
newscasts in the United States who
don't know anything about United States

336
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,817
history-... but know what they know.
In terms of causation, if

337
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,380
you take slavery out of the picture,
there is no Civil War, period.

338
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,057
That's not a long conversation you need.
You ask the question. That's the answer.

339
00:22:03,140 --> 00:22:04,477
Let's go to the next question.

340
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,940
The next question is, okay,
so were most white people

341
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,000
motivated to put on blue uniforms
because they wanted to kill

342
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:15,997
slavery? The answer to that is no,
they were not. They were motivated

343
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,180
to put on blue uniforms
to salvage the Union,

344
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,477
which they saw as a unique gift that the

345
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,377
founding generation, based on the
bloodshed in the American Revolution,

346
00:22:27,460 --> 00:22:31,280
had bequeathed the successive generations.
And the two key parts of what the

347
00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:33,780
Union meant for them was, number one,

348
00:22:35,420 --> 00:22:39,167
you had a voice in your own government,
and someone will always say now to me,

349
00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:41,550
"Well, but women couldn't vote."
That's right.

350
00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:46,387
The people who could vote by our
standards were limited in the 19th

351
00:22:46,470 --> 00:22:49,917
century, but within the context
of the Western world in

352
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,457
1860, the United States had
by far the broadest franchise, by

353
00:22:53,540 --> 00:22:57,477
far. And so they argued that's one
thing the Union gives us, and it

354
00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,886
also gives us the chance
to rise economically.

355
00:22:59,969 --> 00:23:01,527
Doesn't guarantee that you can

356
00:23:01,610 --> 00:23:05,660
succeed, but it means you're not
doomed to be what your father was.

357
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,937
And those are worth fighting for.
And so I will put on a uniform so the

358
00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:13,497
slave-holding aristocrats and oligarchs,
which is what they called

359
00:23:13,580 --> 00:23:15,357
them, of the South,
they said they're not...

360
00:23:15,441 --> 00:23:17,077
They don't really believe in democracy.

361
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,860
It's an oligarchy-... in the South.
It's a slavery-based oligarchy,

362
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,377
and we know which way Europe's going,
they said. The revolutions of the

363
00:23:25,460 --> 00:23:29,337
1840s failed in Europe. Europe's going
the wrong way. They're going toward

364
00:23:29,420 --> 00:23:31,940
more aristocracy, more oligarchy, more...

365
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,937
And we are the last hope.
When Lincoln spoke of

366
00:23:37,020 --> 00:23:40,797
the last best hope of Earth,
which he did in one of his most

367
00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,100
memorable phrases, he's meaning

368
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,777
that the United States is a beacon
of small D democracy in a

369
00:23:47,860 --> 00:23:51,640
Western world that seems to be turning
the other way. And those soldiers,

370
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,170
it meant, it meant it was that important
to them. They are citizens in a republic

371
00:23:57,060 --> 00:24:00,917
that people shed blood to establish,
and we can't let it

372
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,900
go. Part of the compact is I'm
a citizen. I derive these

373
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,280
benefits from this republic,
from the Union.

374
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,480
I can have a voice in government. I can
rise economically or have the chance to.

375
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,717
I owe my service to that republic.
That's what most of them would've

376
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,741
said if you'd pressed them
on why they're doing it.

377
00:24:18,825 --> 00:24:20,737
Doesn't mean everybody
was on fire with ideology

378
00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:24,577
that way. Some guys would say, "Well, you
know what? I'm broke, and I'm gonna get

379
00:24:24,660 --> 00:24:30,777
fed and clothed in the army." But this
sense of exceptionalism, exceptionalism's

380
00:24:30,860 --> 00:24:34,737
unpopular now in the United
States, but Americans had a

381
00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,357
sense of themselves as a truly
exceptionalist society within the

382
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,030
context of the Western world.
- And as a small aside terminology-wise,

383
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,270
blue is the Union or what we
think of as the United States,

384
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:49,530
and red is the Confederacy.

385
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,760
- Yes. On the maps, the Confederate
units are red blocks. And the United

386
00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:56,010
States units are blue
blocks. That's right.

387
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:58,577
- And, uh - That is correct.

388
00:24:58,660 --> 00:25:03,200
- And the North and the South is another
way we'll refer to it just to clarify.

389
00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:06,680
- And let me have a very
brief rant on North and South.

390
00:25:06,860 --> 00:25:12,040
I prefer to see this as a war between
two mid-19th-century republics,

391
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,237
One of which didn't last very long
and spent its whole life in the midst

392
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,300
of a great war. There were 15
slaveholding states in 1860.

393
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,537
Only 11 of them seceded
from the United States.

394
00:25:23,620 --> 00:25:25,717
- Even though there's 13 stars.
We'll talk about that.

395
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,697
- We'll talk about that demented notion
of things in just a minute, but only 11

396
00:25:29,780 --> 00:25:33,657
leave. So there are four slaveholding
states in the United States: Kentucky, and

397
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:37,537
Missouri, and Maryland, and Delaware
remain in the United States. So

398
00:25:37,620 --> 00:25:41,437
it's not just North versus South.
Those states are all part of the

399
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,137
South. It's the United
States versus the Confederacy.

400
00:25:44,220 --> 00:25:47,320
- But see how you referred to it
as the United States. So the

401
00:25:47,420 --> 00:25:52,137
Union is also referred to as the United
States - That's correct. Yes, yes

402
00:25:52,220 --> 00:25:55,977
- But the Confederacy was,
as you write about, a set of

403
00:25:56,060 --> 00:25:59,240
people who also had a sense
of nationalism, pride

404
00:25:59,740 --> 00:26:03,657
- Well, and took their founding document.
I mean, it took the whole summer of

405
00:26:03,740 --> 00:26:07,637
1787 in Philadelphia, that hot,
steamy, humid summer of

406
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,357
1787 to come up with the Constitution.
The Confederates did it

407
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,277
quickly 'cause they basically had the US
Constitution here, a blank piece of

408
00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:18,609
paper over here ... copied most
of the Constitution over here,

409
00:26:18,692 --> 00:26:20,437
just changed the parts that they needed

410
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,277
to make sure slavery was protected,
and you didn't have the wrong

411
00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:27,837
kind of tariffs and so forth. That's one
reason they could do it so quickly. It's

412
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,660
absolutely based on

413
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,495
the government they've
been thriving under,

414
00:26:32,579 --> 00:26:34,677
which is under the United
States Constitution.

415
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,066
Both sides claimed they were the true
inheritors of the revolutionary

416
00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:42,477
generation. That was one of their...
They all... Jefferson Davis loved the

417
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,157
Declaration of Independence. The
Declaration is Abraham Lincoln's favorite

418
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,590
document. They just liked
different parts of it

419
00:26:48,740 --> 00:26:52,060
- So we should think
of this as two republics

420
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,300
- I argue that.
That makes many people very angry

421
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,540
- I will make many people angry today

422
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,717
- They say that I am conferring
legitimacy on the Confederacy that they

423
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:02,633
don't deserve,

424
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,837
and my response to that is they have
a national government. They have a

425
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,497
Senate. They have a Congress. They have
an army. They have a navy. They have

426
00:27:10,580 --> 00:27:14,317
departments. They... It's...
It walks like a duck. It

427
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,095
quacks like a duck. In the end, it's
a slaughtered duck faster than it would've

428
00:27:18,179 --> 00:27:21,029
been because the United States
military forces crushed it

429
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,982
- We should say that you
are respected, admired,

430
00:27:26,065 --> 00:27:29,200
loved by most people on both sides

431
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,557
in, from a perspective sense. You're

432
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,337
deeply respected by historians
of Civil War and just historians of

433
00:27:37,420 --> 00:27:40,877
American history.
But of course, when you do your job

434
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,030
well on a controversial topic in a
controversial period of human history-

435
00:27:45,860 --> 00:27:51,777
... you're going to get, hopefully
an equal amount of critics on both

436
00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:56,360
sides. And that's when you do
your job well. So sometimes when we

437
00:27:56,460 --> 00:28:00,277
speak today, some of the
controversial, quote-unquote,

438
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:04,117
controversial things that you express
are controversial from that small

439
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,900
minority of folks on both
sides for different reasons

440
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,980
- Yes. I won't be... One of my favorite
pieces of hate mail I got was an

441
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,497
email where this guy, I had...
He was upset that I referred to the

442
00:28:14,580 --> 00:28:18,240
Confederacy as a slave-holding
republic that was... And he said that he

443
00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:24,917
hoped I would develop virulent pancreatic
cancer and die a horrible death. Not

444
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,817
just regular pancreatic cancer.
He wanted virulent pancreatic cancer

445
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:33,100
And then he signed his name and said he'd
be happy to talk to me anytime I wanted to

446
00:28:33,220 --> 00:28:36,597
- Yeah. I'm sure that would
be a wonderful conversation

447
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,510
But there's also really
strong senses throughout,

448
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:45,040
throughout the United States,
the United States, of the,

449
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:52,687
this diversity of opinion of what
is the United States - Of course. Yes

450
00:28:52,770 --> 00:28:55,560
- And that's where
the passion is really rooted

451
00:28:56,020 --> 00:28:59,690
- Both sides claim...
In the election of 1860,

452
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,757
Douglas talked about how much he loved the
Union. Lincoln talked about how much he

453
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,737
loved the Union. Breckinridge talked
about how much he loved the Union.

454
00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:12,717
They're all... And John Bell, who's
the Unionist, the Constitutional Union-

455
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,650
That's all he talked about. They just had
different versions of what the Union was

456
00:29:18,260 --> 00:29:21,519
- And that's why I love this country. I
think it's the greatest country on Earth,

457
00:29:21,602 --> 00:29:25,480
and it has a bunch of people that very
strongly disagree with each other.

458
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,717
Of course, hopefully never again

459
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,540
escalating to the degree that it
did during this period of time.

460
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,720
So we talked about the blue people
on the map and the red people on the map.

461
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:43,530
It may be a silly thing to ask,
but sticking with the motivation,

462
00:29:45,060 --> 00:29:52,060
why would, let's say, a farm boy
in Ohio-... want to die for the Union?

463
00:29:53,260 --> 00:29:57,117
- That is the most important, and I didn't
even ask you to ask that question. That's

464
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,437
the, that's the hardest thing-

465
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,537
- Let's be honest. You paid me a lot
of money to ask that question, yeah.

466
00:30:00,620 --> 00:30:02,220
- I didn't think it was so much.

467
00:30:03,060 --> 00:30:04,427
- Okay. I'm sorry.
Go ahead. I won't distract.

468
00:30:04,510 --> 00:30:07,321
- No. The, I tell my students at the
beginning of my Civil War class that if

469
00:30:07,405 --> 00:30:12,478
they couldn't explain, I didn't use Ohio.
I said, "If you can't explain why a farmer

470
00:30:12,562 --> 00:30:13,347
from Vermont-

471
00:30:13,430 --> 00:30:17,180
... would put on a blue uniform and pick
up a musket to make South Carolina

472
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,732
come back in, why didn't he just say,
'Great. South Carolina's gone.

473
00:30:20,815 --> 00:30:24,715
I never liked them anyway. This is a
better union.' If you can't explain that,

474
00:30:25,460 --> 00:30:28,246
then you can't understand the Civil War."
And the key to that,

475
00:30:28,329 --> 00:30:29,477
I'll come back to it, is

476
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,810
union because he would've said,
"If we allow South Carolina to go

477
00:30:33,660 --> 00:30:37,577
That means that other places
could go and you could dismantle.

478
00:30:37,660 --> 00:30:40,798
And the only reason they're going is
because they didn't like who was elected

479
00:30:40,882 --> 00:30:41,597
president.

480
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,585
They didn't say that Lincoln was corrupt.
They didn't say Republicans bought

481
00:30:44,669 --> 00:30:45,137
the election.

482
00:30:45,220 --> 00:30:48,997
They just didn't like who won
the election. And so if the republic is

483
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,817
so fragile that it can't have
an election without having the

484
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:56,747
people who didn't like who won leave,
then the founders had wasted

485
00:30:56,830 --> 00:31:00,657
their time, the revolution was for
nothing, all that bloodshed meant

486
00:31:00,740 --> 00:31:07,740
nothing. You had to step up and save this
precious republic that had put in place

487
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,517
by the revolutionary generation
and gave its citizens the benefits

488
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,537
that I've already talked about. That's why
they would put on a uniform and risk their

489
00:31:16,620 --> 00:31:20,900
life, because they believed a citizen...
These are citizen soldiers.

490
00:31:22,580 --> 00:31:24,680
We don't know what that means so much now.

491
00:31:25,300 --> 00:31:29,060
because we have a professional
military establishment now. Not--

492
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,720
I mean, even when I was younger, there was
still a draft, and but that's gone now.

493
00:31:35,660 --> 00:31:39,497
And so we don't understand what the
concept of citizen soldier was, that you

494
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:43,537
owe something back to the republic
that has conveyed these things

495
00:31:43,620 --> 00:31:47,740
to you, and that's why the guy
from Vermont or New Hampshire or Ohio

496
00:31:48,940 --> 00:31:51,800
would put on a uniform
and go into military service.

497
00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:55,900
- Is it possible for us to understand
that level of love of nation

498
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:02,480
and believe in nation? Is this, is this
very distant from what America is today?

499
00:32:02,740 --> 00:32:05,457
- I actually think many people
probably still feel that way,

500
00:32:05,540 --> 00:32:07,887
but they're not the ones
who are on television-

501
00:32:07,970 --> 00:32:11,760
... most of the time. Republicans
in the midst of the war commented

502
00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:15,650
about the fact that even
with this gigantic conflict going

503
00:32:15,780 --> 00:32:19,677
on, immigration continued
at a high level. People

504
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:23,500
coming into a nation that
was in the middle of a great

505
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,140
war. And they said, "This
is a testament to the promise

506
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,040
of the United States."
And I think that promise

507
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,997
continues. I mean, we've argued about...
As with so many things, Americans have

508
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,077
no sense of history. They believe we've
never argued about immigration before.

509
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,321
We've always argued about immigration,
with some people always saying,

510
00:32:41,405 --> 00:32:44,606
"Shut the door. They're ruining us.
The Italians are ruining us.

511
00:32:44,689 --> 00:32:46,457
The Irish are Catholics. They're ruining

512
00:32:46,540 --> 00:32:51,700
us. God, the Southern Europeans are
even worse than, than the Irish were."

513
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,417
It's-- The people change,
the arguments stay very much the

514
00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,437
same, and I think it's really telling
that in the midst of the war, people

515
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,297
would say, "Look at our republic.
It is-- It offers so much to people

516
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:07,577
that even in the midst of this
great war, they're still coming-

517
00:33:07,660 --> 00:33:12,880
... to the United States." - And like
you said, both sides, both these republics

518
00:33:13,420 --> 00:33:16,057
claimed, for example, George Washington.

519
00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:19,157
- Yes. They both claim... I'll leave it at
that. They both claim George Washington.

520
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:20,390
They wanted to be right

521
00:33:21,500 --> 00:33:25,380
with the man, which is what George
Washington was. He's the indispensable

522
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,297
man, no question. Both sides
wanted him on their side. They

523
00:33:29,380 --> 00:33:33,257
both quoted Thomas Jefferson,
although Confederates were a

524
00:33:33,340 --> 00:33:36,897
little more leery of Jefferson
'cause he's too complicated for them

525
00:33:36,980 --> 00:33:40,877
sometimes. But no, they wanted to be
right with the founders and claimed to

526
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,544
be right with the founders.
The Confederates would say,

527
00:33:43,628 --> 00:33:44,797
"The Constitution allowed

528
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,025
slavery. What are you talking about
we're out of step with the Constitution?

529
00:33:48,108 --> 00:33:48,717
We're in step

530
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,697
with the Con- You're the ones who are
out of step with the Constitution."

531
00:33:51,780 --> 00:33:54,487
- What about the topic of states'
rights? At the very least-

532
00:33:54,570 --> 00:33:58,457
- I love state rights. State rights...
I mean, I love the way people use

533
00:33:58,540 --> 00:34:02,597
it with the Civil War. They associate
it solely with Southern states-

534
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,577
... of course. State rights is always
available in United States history for

535
00:34:06,660 --> 00:34:09,917
somebody who's not happy with what
the federal government is doing.

536
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,007
During the War of 1812, it was New
England that most often talked-

537
00:34:14,090 --> 00:34:17,057
... about resorting to state rights.
They had a convention where they sort

538
00:34:17,140 --> 00:34:20,740
of wandered over towards secession
territory in the Hartford Convention.

539
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,300
We think of it as state rights
because as you lead up to the Civil

540
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,157
War, you hear con- white
Southerners talking about it all the

541
00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:32,940
time. "We need our state rights."
I always love to ask

542
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,753
people who say that,
"What are all the state rights?

543
00:34:35,836 --> 00:34:38,877
Give me-- List the state rights
that the white South is concerned."

544
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,692
You know, "Give me the top three.
No, really, just give me the top two."

545
00:34:41,775 --> 00:34:42,625
There's only one.

546
00:34:43,060 --> 00:34:46,797
The state right that they're worried
about is the right of their state to

547
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,464
interpose its power between a federal
government that might try to interfere

548
00:34:50,547 --> 00:34:53,404
with slavery and a state government
that wants to maintain it.

549
00:34:53,488 --> 00:34:54,817
That's the state right that

550
00:34:54,900 --> 00:35:00,300
matters then. Northern states also
resorted to state rights during this, the

551
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,277
ramp-up to the Civil War, with what
were called personal liberty laws. They

552
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:08,137
tried to interpose their state power
in between a federal government that would

553
00:35:08,220 --> 00:35:13,370
use its power to to force escaped,
enslaved people back into slavery.

554
00:35:14,770 --> 00:35:18,677
It's whoever's unhappy with the federal
government, the concept of state rights is

555
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,050
available, and both sides used it.

556
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,880
- And of course, the beautiful, dark,

557
00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:31,277
ironic hypocrisy was illustrated by the
Confederacy when they were the first to

558
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,090
pass a national draft in American history.

559
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:41,560
- Like, irony is wonderful-... in history.
Another thing that I love to teach

560
00:35:42,540 --> 00:35:46,317
is that the most intrusive
central government in American

561
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,317
history, by far, until deep
into the 20th century, was the

562
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,957
Confederate central government, because
it had to do things to keep the war

563
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,867
going that it couldn't have done unless
the central government stepped in,

564
00:35:57,950 --> 00:36:01,937
such as passing the first national
conscription law in American history. The

565
00:36:02,020 --> 00:36:05,757
government, the US government never forced
people into uniform before the Civil War.

566
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,757
The Confederates did it first. They did
it in the spring of 1862. They passed a

567
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,737
national graduated income tax.
And when taxing didn't work,

568
00:36:13,820 --> 00:36:17,657
when their money became so devalued, they
then passed what they called the tax in

569
00:36:17,740 --> 00:36:21,697
kind. They would take a percentage of
your crop. They allowed the government to

570
00:36:21,780 --> 00:36:25,580
impress horses and mules
and enslaved labor to work

571
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,200
on All of these were intrusions
from the central government that

572
00:36:29,340 --> 00:36:32,960
drove true state rights people
crazy in the Confederacy.

573
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,231
Confederates didn't have political parties
because they said the founders didn't want

574
00:36:37,314 --> 00:36:41,317
them, so we won't have them.
But what they did have was a sort of

575
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,523
nationalist, "We're gonna let the central
government do whatever it needs to do."

576
00:36:44,607 --> 00:36:45,177
That's Jefferson

577
00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:49,157
Davis' wing, and Robert E. Lee's over
there, too. And the people like the

578
00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:52,717
vice president, Alexander Stephens,
who said, "You can't do all this stuff

579
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:54,950
because the states
should have more power."

580
00:36:55,620 --> 00:36:59,013
The only reason the war lasted as long as
it did is because the central government

581
00:36:59,096 --> 00:37:03,537
did things no one ever would have believed
they would do. He also got rid of habeas

582
00:37:03,620 --> 00:37:06,800
corpus just like Abraham Lincoln
did in selected situations.

583
00:37:07,230 --> 00:37:10,643
- And of course, we should really
emphasize that on both sides,

584
00:37:10,726 --> 00:37:11,670
those volunteers,

585
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,340
the on the Confederacy,
there's a very large number of people

586
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,257
percentage-wise that volunteered
to fight. And then I

587
00:37:20,340 --> 00:37:24,197
believe the volunteer
period was one year, and

588
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,117
then there's all kind of funky stuff that
the that the government started doing to

589
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,180
trap those people into then serving
and- - Here's what the Confederacy did.

590
00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:36,727
They... Nobody thinks the war's
gonna last a long time-

591
00:37:36,810 --> 00:37:39,727
... in the spring of 1861.
So if you enlist for a year-

592
00:37:39,810 --> 00:37:42,644
... that's probably plenty
of time to finish this war. Well,

593
00:37:42,728 --> 00:37:43,637
a year goes by and a

594
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,617
significant percentage of the Confederate
men under arms are due to get out. So what

595
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:50,280
the Confederate Congress
did was pass conscription.

596
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,990
We're gonna put every- make everybody
liable to three-year service.

597
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:58,277
And in the midst of doing that,
all you guys who volunteered for

598
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,600
one year are now in for two more years.

599
00:38:01,220 --> 00:38:04,717
Well, that outraged... I mean, "That's,
you're breaking faith with us," they said.

600
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:05,950
They didn't stop there.

601
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,661
Later they revised it when the war kept
going on and then the three years guys

602
00:38:10,744 --> 00:38:13,079
were gonna get out,
then the Congress stepped in and said,

603
00:38:13,163 --> 00:38:14,797
"You're in for the duration." The bottom

604
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,660
line is, the Confederacy ever
gets you in uniform, you don't

605
00:38:18,780 --> 00:38:22,737
get out because they keep
changing the rules on you. And that

606
00:38:22,820 --> 00:38:26,680
was considered, national conscription
was considered a fundamental

607
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,741
abridgment of individual
rights by many people.

608
00:38:28,825 --> 00:38:30,677
That's something
the government should never

609
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:34,560
force a citizen into uniform.
A citizen should volunteer their service.

610
00:38:35,240 --> 00:38:38,980
The US government waited a year,
then it did it in the spring of 1863,

611
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,770
although it always respected
original terms of enlistment.

612
00:38:44,090 --> 00:38:47,440
Never made it the war for the duration
the way the Confederacy did.

613
00:38:48,420 --> 00:38:50,820
- Quick pause for a bathroom
break if it's okay.

614
00:38:51,620 --> 00:38:55,470
Quick 10-second shout-out to our sponsors.
Check them out in the description.

615
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,417
It really is the best way
to support this podcast. Go to

616
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:02,480
lexfridman.com/sponsors.
And now, dear friends,

617
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,700
back to my conversation
with Gary Gallagher.

618
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,780
All right, we're back. There's so many
different directions we can go, but

619
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,238
I am somebody who believes that
individuals can steer the direction

620
00:39:14,321 --> 00:39:18,550
of history.
So one angle to look at here is,

621
00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:22,660
some of the legendary historical
figures from this time.

622
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:28,437
Let's talk about some of the key figures
of the Civil War. We have Abraham Lincoln,

623
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,629
of course, the President of the United
States who held the Union together

624
00:39:31,713 --> 00:39:36,177
and turned the war into a fight for a new
birth of freedom. Jefferson Davis, who you

625
00:39:36,260 --> 00:39:39,997
mentioned, President
of the Confederacy. Ulysses S.

626
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,797
Grant, somebody we'll talk
about quite a bit, General in

627
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,777
Chief of the Union armies.
Robert E. Lee on

628
00:39:47,860 --> 00:39:51,840
the other side, the commander
of the Army of Northern Virginia,

629
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,777
somebody who you have studied
for decades now. We'll talk a lot

630
00:39:55,860 --> 00:39:59,617
about him. There's Sherman,
there's Stonewall Jackson,

631
00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:01,620
there's Frederick Douglass,

632
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:07,980
there is McClellan, there is John
Brown, a militant abolitionist.

633
00:40:08,860 --> 00:40:11,120
Many more figures, but let's look at three

634
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:18,860
at first. Let's look at Lincoln,
Grant, and Lee. Lincoln first. So

635
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:24,197
Abraham Lincoln, we have
this backwoods lawyer with a

636
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,817
single year of schooling
who somehow outgrew every

637
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:31,837
polished man around him and became one
of the most consequential leaders in

638
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,797
human history. So what do we
need to understand? What can we

639
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,510
possibly understand
at a 10,000-foot level,

640
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,410
About Lincoln that made it
all possible? What was it

641
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:47,060
about Lincoln's mind that made
this man do what he did?

642
00:40:48,050 --> 00:40:51,957
- Almost nobody continues to go up
in my estimation as I get older and

643
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,940
older, but Lincoln is one of the people
who does. And Lincoln is quite frankly

644
00:40:57,420 --> 00:41:01,337
a mystery to me. I don't see how you
get Abraham Lincoln out of someone who

645
00:41:01,420 --> 00:41:05,337
came from his very poor background. You

646
00:41:05,420 --> 00:41:08,155
said he had a year of schooling.
You're being very generous to him there.

647
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,297
He didn't even really have a

648
00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:12,820
year of formal schooling.
And you end up with a person

649
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,160
who is the most eloquent president
we've ever had by a very wide margin

650
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:20,980
and I think even more
eloquent than Jefferson,

651
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,737
and who is able to distill
into the fewest possible

652
00:41:25,820 --> 00:41:32,480
words the most complex ideas
and topics imaginable and just have them

653
00:41:33,660 --> 00:41:37,190
ring in a way that almost no one
is able to do. He is someone...

654
00:41:37,860 --> 00:41:41,757
He had an ego, but I think one
of his real gifts was the ability to

655
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:48,720
put his ego aside and keep his eye
on the goal. He was able to really focus,

656
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,200
and he focused relentlessly on,
number one,

657
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:55,660
suppressing the rebellion
and restoring the Union,

658
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,077
but also getting... He hated
the institution of slavery. He's not an

659
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:04,077
abolitionist, but he hated the institution
of slavery and he was very happy to

660
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,797
see that slavery was added
to the roster of what the United

661
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,600
States would insist
on at the end of the war.

662
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,337
He's able to let all the other
things go. He can pay attention to

663
00:42:16,420 --> 00:42:19,957
many things, but he never loses his...
his principal focus was, "How do I

664
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,010
maintain this great war?"
And it's an all en- it's

665
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,140
really hard to get people
to understand the scope

666
00:42:28,150 --> 00:42:31,467
of the Civil War. There are 31
million people in the United States

667
00:42:31,550 --> 00:42:35,387
then. About a shade more than 3
million put on uniforms. It would

668
00:42:35,470 --> 00:42:41,107
be as if we had 35 to 40 million people
under arms now. For the Confederates,

669
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:42,840
it would be like having more like

670
00:42:42,930 --> 00:42:46,990
55 million people-... under arms
as a percentage of the population.

671
00:42:47,930 --> 00:42:51,727
The dead would be between 6
million and 7.5 million, depending

672
00:42:51,810 --> 00:42:55,770
on how you count it. The scope
is just... During the Gulf Wars,

673
00:42:55,950 --> 00:42:59,667
The New York Times put a picture of every
United States service person who was

674
00:42:59,750 --> 00:43:01,450
killed, put a picture in the paper

675
00:43:02,630 --> 00:43:06,590
over the scope of those wars,
and that is about as many people

676
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:10,587
as were shot in a few hours at Antietam.
It's just very different to

677
00:43:10,670 --> 00:43:14,247
get students now to understand
the different scale, and that's what

678
00:43:14,330 --> 00:43:18,290
Lincoln's dealing with.
How do I keep the focus on a war

679
00:43:19,050 --> 00:43:22,730
that is becoming far more
costly than anyone imagined,

680
00:43:25,330 --> 00:43:29,237
and eating up our young manpower at a
rate that no one... There's never been

681
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,907
anything in our history to prepare
the United States for this. The

682
00:43:32,990 --> 00:43:36,887
Winfield Scott captured Mexico City
with an army of fewer than 15,000

683
00:43:36,970 --> 00:43:38,870
during the war with Mexico.

684
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,487
U.S. Grant has 120,000. I mean, the whole
scale is just so different that it's

685
00:43:44,570 --> 00:43:45,727
hard to come to terms with it.

686
00:43:45,810 --> 00:43:48,710
And that's what Lincoln
was dealing with. I think the fact

687
00:43:49,530 --> 00:43:52,330
that he was willing to surround
himself with really able

688
00:43:53,010 --> 00:43:56,767
counselors is important. Who does
he put in his cabinet? He puts his

689
00:43:56,850 --> 00:44:00,727
main rivals in the cabinet.
He put William Henry Seward in his

690
00:44:00,810 --> 00:44:04,727
cabinet, who's the most famous Republican
in the country. He puts Salmon P. Chase,

691
00:44:04,810 --> 00:44:10,347
who's a very smart and effective
and ambitious person from Ohio, in his

692
00:44:10,430 --> 00:44:17,430
cabinet. He surrounds himself with
people who are capable and energetic

693
00:44:17,690 --> 00:44:20,134
and have their own ambitions,
he's not afraid to do that,

694
00:44:20,217 --> 00:44:21,327
all of whom had far better

695
00:44:21,410 --> 00:44:25,347
educations than he had and didn't have
a rural backwoods accent like he did.

696
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:27,261
It's also a measure
of how confident he was.

697
00:44:27,345 --> 00:44:29,347
He didn't pretend to talk
a way he, uh, to talk

698
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:31,587
in a fashion that he-...
didn't actually talk.

699
00:44:31,670 --> 00:44:35,547
He would've pronounced words in ways that
anybody who went to Harvard would just

700
00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:38,930
sneer at. He didn't, and he knew
they sneered, and he didn't care.

701
00:44:39,650 --> 00:44:43,327
Because eventually, all of them,
except the ones with only a 20-watt

702
00:44:43,410 --> 00:44:47,067
bulb, figured out that Lincoln
was actually probably

703
00:44:47,150 --> 00:44:50,987
smarter than they were and had a better
grasp of things than they did and

704
00:44:51,070 --> 00:44:55,020
brought them around. He really brought
Seward around, which is very impressive.

705
00:44:56,130 --> 00:44:59,867
- Yeah, there's so many fascinating
things about Lincoln. So backwoods of

706
00:44:59,950 --> 00:45:04,370
Kentucky, and Kentucky is a very
important state in this story. And

707
00:45:06,190 --> 00:45:08,190
the right words, the right speeches,

708
00:45:09,110 --> 00:45:14,400
the right debates at this moment
in history. It really does make me wonder,

709
00:45:15,970 --> 00:45:22,970
you know, if Lincoln didn't exist,
if certain humans in history didn't exist,

710
00:45:24,090 --> 00:45:26,840
that everything could have
turned out very differently.

711
00:45:27,330 --> 00:45:30,917
- The great forces are all that matters
and individuals don't really matter notion

712
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,710
of history I think is ridiculous.
Individuals really matter.

713
00:45:35,350 --> 00:45:40,007
For the United States, Lincoln
and Grant matter beyond calculation--

714
00:45:40,090 --> 00:45:42,283
... in this, in this war.
And on the Confederate side,

715
00:45:42,366 --> 00:45:43,967
if you take Lee out of the picture, the

716
00:45:44,050 --> 00:45:47,907
war doesn't last nearly as long
as it does. In fact, we'll talk about

717
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:51,927
this later probably, I think it could
have ended early in the summer of 1862

718
00:45:52,010 --> 00:45:55,650
with slavery still intact.
I mean, in a perverse way,

719
00:45:56,370 --> 00:45:59,880
Lee furthers the cause
of emancipation because he--

720
00:46:00,290 --> 00:46:04,220
extends the war long enough that the
United States says, "We have to do this.

721
00:46:04,310 --> 00:46:07,160
We've gotta get rid of slavery
to defeat the rebels."

722
00:46:08,210 --> 00:46:12,130
- So, and also on the psychological
side, Lincoln is a,

723
00:46:12,330 --> 00:46:16,590
this is a fascinating study because he,
he carried deep depression all his life.

724
00:46:16,710 --> 00:46:20,070
- He had black, black moods
in his life, yes, he did.

725
00:46:20,350 --> 00:46:24,570
- And so for somebody that has to go
through an all-encompassing war,

726
00:46:26,230 --> 00:46:31,030
to be able to sort of survive
through that, to think through that,

727
00:46:31,850 --> 00:46:37,630
without an education,
without any acquired skill

728
00:46:37,730 --> 00:46:42,010
that enables him to be
a commander-in-chief during a time of war.

729
00:46:43,090 --> 00:46:46,587
He's got nothing in the toolbox,
and yet he steps up.

730
00:46:46,670 --> 00:46:50,997
- If you looked at his
resume and Jefferson Davis's--

731
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,387
... in 1860 and said, "Okay, here are the
two guys who are gonna be your respective

732
00:46:54,470 --> 00:46:57,347
commanders-in-chief.
Who do you want on your team?"

733
00:46:57,430 --> 00:47:01,167
Lincoln had no administrative
experience beyond running a little

734
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:05,107
law office. He had one
two-year term in the House of

735
00:47:05,190 --> 00:47:09,027
Representatives in terms
of national government. He had no

736
00:47:09,110 --> 00:47:12,867
military service to speak of,
a little while in the Black Hawk

737
00:47:12,950 --> 00:47:15,930
War as a junior officer
in the Black Hawk War.

738
00:47:17,110 --> 00:47:19,412
Didn't check any of the
education boxes, as you said.

739
00:47:19,495 --> 00:47:20,927
Jefferson Davis was a graduate of

740
00:47:21,010 --> 00:47:24,847
West Point. He'd commanded more
men in the war with Mexico than

741
00:47:24,930 --> 00:47:28,667
most of the men who commanded armies
during the Civil War. He'd chaired the

742
00:47:28,750 --> 00:47:32,687
Senate Committee on Military Affairs.
He'd been Secretary of

743
00:47:32,770 --> 00:47:35,195
War, a lot of administrative
experience. He checked every box.

744
00:47:35,278 --> 00:47:39,987
Lincoln checked none of the boxes,
and yet you got Lincoln as a

745
00:47:40,070 --> 00:47:43,850
commander-in-chief. It's really quite
remarkable. He could listen to people

746
00:47:43,950 --> 00:47:47,847
that he thought knew more about
something than he did. That's a

747
00:47:47,930 --> 00:47:51,667
quality that all of our presidents,
to put it mildly, have not

748
00:47:51,750 --> 00:47:55,640
had. Lincoln did have that. He could
listen. He could admit when he was wrong

749
00:47:56,530 --> 00:48:00,267
and change his mind about
things, and he could put up

750
00:48:00,350 --> 00:48:04,227
with obnoxious behavior
on the part of people that

751
00:48:04,310 --> 00:48:08,207
he thought might deliver the goods.
And a perfect example of this

752
00:48:08,290 --> 00:48:11,947
is George Brinton McClellan, whom we'll
talk about later, his young... who was

753
00:48:12,030 --> 00:48:15,230
general-in-chief for a while,
commanded the Army of the Potomac.

754
00:48:15,470 --> 00:48:19,330
In 1861, Lincoln and his
Secretary of State, William Henry

755
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:23,247
Seward, went to McClellan's house
to talk to McClellan. Went to McClellan's

756
00:48:23,330 --> 00:48:27,127
house. The commander-in-chief goes to
McClellan's house. McClellan wasn't there.

757
00:48:27,210 --> 00:48:30,937
The butler or somebody put them
in a side room. McClellan came home, was

758
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:34,397
told Lincoln was there.
He went upstairs and then

759
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,853
told the person who worked for him to go
tell the president that he'd be happy

760
00:48:37,937 --> 00:48:42,237
to talk to him some other time.
And so Lincoln just left. He never went

761
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:46,157
back to see McClellan again,
didn't pitch a fit, filed

762
00:48:46,240 --> 00:48:49,957
that away. Okay, McClellan's an ass, but I
think he might win the war. I mean, he

763
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:53,980
had that ability to do that,
to put aside that kind of

764
00:48:55,220 --> 00:48:58,520
behavior on the part of someone
if he thought they would deliver.

765
00:48:59,780 --> 00:49:03,557
He just has a number of qualities,
I think, that are very unusual to

766
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,477
find in someone. And as you say,
he did have depressive moments, and

767
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:11,500
he-- we talk about how,
what bad days presidents have. Now,

768
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:15,330
Lincoln would have said, I'll take
that president's worst day every

769
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,137
day rather than the days that I get,
for the most part. I mean, he--

770
00:49:19,220 --> 00:49:21,670
it's hard to imagine
the burdens that he carried.

771
00:49:22,180 --> 00:49:26,060
- And at the right time
was just a handful of words

772
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:30,717
expressed something that no
military could possibly do.

773
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:32,450
- Explain what the war was about,

774
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,070
why it was worth fighting, what it
meant, his second inaugural address.

775
00:49:37,470 --> 00:49:41,077
I mean, people went-- when people went
to hear the president give his second

776
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,577
inaugural address on that cold day in

777
00:49:44,660 --> 00:49:48,157
1865, what they wanted to hear,
they finally beat the rebel

778
00:49:48,240 --> 00:49:50,743
scum from their point of view.
Let's have some retribution here.

779
00:49:50,827 --> 00:49:52,117
What are we going to do to them?

780
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:55,400
How are we going to make these
people who brought this great war

781
00:49:56,020 --> 00:49:59,380
pay for this? And what does
Lincoln tell them? He tells them

782
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:03,450
slavery caused it. Everybody knows
that somehow that's the truth, and we're

783
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,437
all implicated in it. I mean,
he didn't tell them anything that

784
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,457
they wanted to hear that day.
And it was-- and it

785
00:50:11,540 --> 00:50:15,137
took great courage, I think,
to do that at that moment, to tell an

786
00:50:15,220 --> 00:50:18,757
audience what they didn't want to hear.
And he did it in the most eloquent

787
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:22,201
language that any president's-- that's
the greatest speech in American history,

788
00:50:22,284 --> 00:50:24,100
the second inaugural, in my view.

789
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,880
- With malice toward none,
with charity for all, with firmness

790
00:50:29,460 --> 00:50:33,160
in the right as God gives
us to see the right, let us

791
00:50:33,260 --> 00:50:37,017
strive on to finish
the work we are in, to bind

792
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:40,510
up the nation's wounds,
to care for him who shall

793
00:50:40,620 --> 00:50:45,701
have borne the battle
and for his widow and his orphan,

794
00:50:45,785 --> 00:50:48,297
to do all which may achieve

795
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:53,960
and cherish a just and lasting peace
among ourselves and with all nations.

796
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,977
- And we're all complicit
in this because we all

797
00:50:58,060 --> 00:51:01,940
countenanced slavery. I mean, that's
all in that one speech. And it's a short

798
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:07,300
speech. The whole speech probably only
lasted eight or nine minutes. And he

799
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,917
also pays tribute to the citizen soldiers
at the beginning of it because he says

800
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:11,317
that the

801
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,457
war is going well and we all know that
everything depends on what our soldiers

802
00:51:15,541 --> 00:51:16,374
do.

803
00:51:16,740 --> 00:51:20,560
And by that he meant saving
the union, killing slavery, it

804
00:51:20,660 --> 00:51:23,962
all depends on them. And then he comes
back and finishes with his tribute to

805
00:51:24,045 --> 00:51:27,720
the soldiers at the end. - And I
have to say the Gettysburg Address.

806
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,090
- Oh, no, it's you can't.

807
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:37,720
- If I may, it's only maybe 200 words.
Four score and seven years ago,

808
00:51:38,550 --> 00:51:42,740
our fathers brought forth
on this continent a new nation,

809
00:51:43,580 --> 00:51:47,500
conceived in liberty and dedicated
to the proposition that all men

810
00:51:47,620 --> 00:51:51,297
are created equal. Now we are engaged in a

811
00:51:51,380 --> 00:51:55,277
great civil war,
testing whether that nation or

812
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:02,097
any nation so conceived and so dedicated
can long endure. We are met on a great

813
00:52:02,180 --> 00:52:08,977
battlefield of that war. We have come
to dedicate a portion of that field as

814
00:52:09,060 --> 00:52:12,637
a final resting place
for those who here gave their

815
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,020
lives that that nation might live.

816
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:19,300
It is altogether fitting
and proper that we should do this.

817
00:52:20,540 --> 00:52:24,477
But in a larger sense, we cannot
dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we

818
00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:28,260
cannot hallow this ground. The brave men

819
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:32,040
living and dead who struggled
here have consecrated it

820
00:52:32,140 --> 00:52:35,460
far above our poor
power to add or detract.

821
00:52:36,030 --> 00:52:39,797
The world will little
note nor long remember what

822
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,637
we say here, but it can
never forget what they did

823
00:52:43,720 --> 00:52:47,637
here. It is for us the living,
rather, to be dedicated

824
00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:51,457
here to the unfinished work
which they who fought here have

825
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:55,340
thus far so nobly advanced.
It is rather for us to be

826
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,997
here dedicated to the great
task remaining before us, that

827
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,397
from these honored dead we take increased

828
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,377
devotion to that cause
for which they here gave the

829
00:53:06,460 --> 00:53:10,217
last full measure of devotion,
that we here highly

830
00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:14,160
resolve that these dead
shall not have died in vain,

831
00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:19,060
that this nation, under God,
shall have a new birth of freedom,

832
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:23,477
and that government of the people,
by the people, for the people shall

833
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,980
not perish from the earth.

834
00:53:27,260 --> 00:53:31,177
That's a big statement about what
this country is about. It's about freedom.

835
00:53:31,260 --> 00:53:37,360
- And he comes back to, when most people
read that, the very last part of it, they

836
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:44,500
emphasize the prepositions of the people,
by the people, for the people.

837
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,360
Lincoln, it's not about the prepositions.
It's about the people. He

838
00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,720
earlier in the war referred
to this as a people's contest.

839
00:53:55,420 --> 00:53:58,937
It's the people that are the key,
the people who make up the republic, the

840
00:53:59,020 --> 00:54:02,497
people who will derive the freedoms and

841
00:54:02,580 --> 00:54:05,900
liberties that the-- I mean,
it's an amazing-- and it

842
00:54:06,380 --> 00:54:10,177
probably took you two minutes to read
that. He was finished before most people

843
00:54:10,260 --> 00:54:14,017
knew he had started at Gettysburg.
Almost nobody heard him say that. The one

844
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:17,573
thing wrong about it is when he said no
one would remember very long what he said

845
00:54:17,657 --> 00:54:19,897
there. It's been remembered pretty well.

846
00:54:19,980 --> 00:54:23,100
- And let's talk about the two other
figures which we'll return to time

847
00:54:23,183 --> 00:54:28,920
and time again. Ulysses S.
Grant and Robert E. Lee. So who was Grant?

848
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,830
So this is a man who failed
at farming. Failed at business,

849
00:54:34,870 --> 00:54:41,870
failed at his role in the peacetime army.
Then when the war came, the war revealed a

850
00:54:42,350 --> 00:54:47,287
genius. - So he'd known a lot of failure,
he'd known a lot of setbacks, and

851
00:54:47,370 --> 00:54:51,620
his wartime record shows that he'd learned
to deal with those things. He had a great,

852
00:54:51,810 --> 00:54:55,487
tremendous relationship with his wife,
a very strong family life, a family he

853
00:54:55,570 --> 00:54:59,447
loved. I think that was the rock for him.
But during the war, what he exhibited

854
00:54:59,530 --> 00:55:03,310
was an absolute
willingness to break rules,

855
00:55:04,330 --> 00:55:08,107
to take risks, to take
responsibility for what he was doing,

856
00:55:08,190 --> 00:55:11,867
whether it was a success
or a failure, and not to be cast

857
00:55:11,950 --> 00:55:14,439
down by things that didn't work.
If something didn't work, he'd say,

858
00:55:14,522 --> 00:55:15,722
"Okay, that didn't work.

859
00:55:16,130 --> 00:55:18,947
Now let's do this."
He very famously, when he got to

860
00:55:19,030 --> 00:55:22,887
Virginia in 1864 and took
over the Army of the Potomac,

861
00:55:22,970 --> 00:55:24,841
he had all these subordinates
who were saying, "Well,

862
00:55:24,924 --> 00:55:26,027
what if General Lee does this?

863
00:55:26,110 --> 00:55:28,254
What if General Lee does that?"
He finally said,

864
00:55:28,337 --> 00:55:30,167
"Why don't we start worrying-- let's--

865
00:55:30,250 --> 00:55:33,707
not worrying about what General Lee is
gonna do and let General Lee worry about

866
00:55:33,791 --> 00:55:37,960
what we're going to do?" I mean,
he just had... He was unflappable

867
00:55:39,250 --> 00:55:43,150
under stress.
He was the perfect person to end up

868
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:47,020
heading the Union armies, and he
and Lincoln-- And Lincoln realized that,

869
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:51,827
and he proved indispensable. But he has

870
00:55:51,910 --> 00:55:53,962
this reputation as a butcher,
Grant the Butcher.

871
00:55:54,046 --> 00:55:55,827
That's something that former Confederates

872
00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:59,347
and some Democrats in the
North fastened on him. His

873
00:55:59,430 --> 00:56:02,987
preferred way of fighting wasn't
just kind of slug it out. It's really

874
00:56:03,070 --> 00:56:06,867
interesting to compare
his record in the war

875
00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:10,807
and Lee's record in the war before
they wound up opposing each other

876
00:56:10,890 --> 00:56:14,247
in Virginia in a really bloody
overland campaign. Grant's total

877
00:56:14,330 --> 00:56:18,140
casualties in all his great
battles before they met were 37,000.

878
00:56:18,350 --> 00:56:20,467
Lee's were over 98,000--

879
00:56:20,550 --> 00:56:24,407
... in the same period. The bloodiest
general in US history by far in terms of

880
00:56:24,490 --> 00:56:27,887
how many of his men get
shot is Robert E. Lee.

881
00:56:27,970 --> 00:56:31,870
The most careful demographic
study of any Civil War army is

882
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:35,790
one done of Lee's army by a scholar
named Joe Glatthaar, and Joe figured out

883
00:56:36,210 --> 00:56:40,107
that if you were a soldier in Robert E.
Lee's army, you had a 73%

884
00:56:40,190 --> 00:56:46,327
chance of becoming a casualty. 73%.
Grant's casualties get high when he

885
00:56:46,410 --> 00:56:50,207
runs into Robert E. Lee, just like
everybody else. So the butcher tag is

886
00:56:50,290 --> 00:56:54,030
completely unfair about Grant.
He's also known as a drunk,

887
00:56:54,270 --> 00:56:57,907
and people have gone back and forth
on that, whether he just had a

888
00:56:57,990 --> 00:57:02,910
weakness, couldn't hold
his alcohol very well or

889
00:57:03,830 --> 00:57:07,533
was okay as long as his wife was around
and he had a key staff officer to help

890
00:57:07,616 --> 00:57:11,767
him. The point is, alcohol never got in
the way of anything Grant did during the

891
00:57:11,850 --> 00:57:14,000
war, and he had

892
00:57:15,010 --> 00:57:18,561
a superlative record of delivering
victories when the United States needed

893
00:57:18,644 --> 00:57:22,690
them, and Lincoln figured
that out. And the absolute

894
00:57:22,870 --> 00:57:26,767
proof of his stature because
of this is that in the March

895
00:57:26,850 --> 00:57:30,587
of 1864, Congress decided to dust

896
00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:34,647
off the rank of three-star general,
lieutenant general, and give it to

897
00:57:34,730 --> 00:57:38,230
Grant. The only person who'd ever
had that rank was George Washington,

898
00:57:38,910 --> 00:57:42,767
the man, Jorge. I mean,
he is the man. And so they

899
00:57:42,850 --> 00:57:46,767
are saying, "Okay, Grant,
you get the rank the man had," and that

900
00:57:46,850 --> 00:57:49,916
shows there's never been anyone
else who got it. You're the first.

901
00:57:49,999 --> 00:57:50,807
And then he would

902
00:57:50,890 --> 00:57:54,730
also be the first to get a four-star
rank in the United States Army. That...

903
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:58,767
There couldn't be
a better indication of his

904
00:57:58,850 --> 00:58:03,290
stature than that he got Washington's
rank. Winfield Scott had had it by brevet.

905
00:58:04,790 --> 00:58:08,410
Grant got the actual rank.
- So in part, the Grant the Butcher

906
00:58:09,310 --> 00:58:11,507
label was from the Overland
Campaign that we'll talk about-

907
00:58:11,590 --> 00:58:14,807
- It is from the Overland Campaign -...
as the military decisions made there.

908
00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:18,940
- Yep. - Uh, many would argue that those
are critically important for the success

909
00:58:19,870 --> 00:58:22,890
of the war. - Yes.
He and Lee are often compared,

910
00:58:24,550 --> 00:58:28,407
but for the last year of the war,
they're operating on it's not

911
00:58:28,490 --> 00:58:32,327
apples to apples because Grant
is general in chief and is managing

912
00:58:32,410 --> 00:58:36,307
the entire war effort. He's managing what
Sherman's doing and what Sheridan's doing

913
00:58:36,390 --> 00:58:39,290
and what Nathaniel Bank...
Lee is an army commander.

914
00:58:39,770 --> 00:58:41,614
He can recommend things
to Jefferson Davis,

915
00:58:41,697 --> 00:58:43,627
but he never commands more than an army,

916
00:58:43,710 --> 00:58:47,567
and so he never operates at the level
that Grant did. Very late in the war, he

917
00:58:47,650 --> 00:58:51,050
was made general in chief when it
was so late that it didn't matter.

918
00:58:51,450 --> 00:58:58,180
- So who was Robert E. Lee? In April 1861,
Lee was offered command of the Union Army-

919
00:58:58,550 --> 00:59:01,490
- He was -... and chose Virginia instead.

920
00:59:01,630 --> 00:59:02,207
- He did.

921
00:59:02,290 --> 00:59:06,247
- What was he actually choosing in that
decision? Was he choosing home? Was he

922
00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:09,890
choosing honor?
Was he choosing slavery? And maybe just

923
00:59:10,010 --> 00:59:13,927
zooming out, what do we need to understand
in the early steps about Robert

924
00:59:14,010 --> 00:59:15,630
E. Lee? Who was the man?

925
00:59:16,060 --> 00:59:19,727
- Well, Lee is sort of the antithesis
of Grant in some ways. Lee is from an

926
00:59:19,810 --> 00:59:23,667
aristocratic family. Grant was from
a solidly middle-class family. Lee's

927
00:59:23,750 --> 00:59:25,940
from an aristocratic
family at the very top

928
00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:30,787
of the Virginia aristocracy.
The Lees are all... He has uncles who

929
00:59:30,870 --> 00:59:34,607
were prominent, two signed
the Declaration of Independence. His

930
00:59:34,690 --> 00:59:38,650
father was a famous commander under George
Washington. His father's the one who

931
00:59:38,830 --> 00:59:41,059
said that Washington was first
in war, first in peace,

932
00:59:41,143 --> 00:59:42,727
first in the hearts of his countrymen.

933
00:59:42,810 --> 00:59:46,360
That's Lee's father, who was later
a prominent Virginia politician.

934
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:50,347
Lee's idol is George
Washington. He patterns

935
00:59:50,430 --> 00:59:54,347
himself on Washington.
He differs from him in some ways, but

936
00:59:54,430 --> 00:59:58,167
he patterns himself on Washington.
He considered Washington the

937
00:59:58,250 --> 01:00:02,027
most admirable person in United States
history. And then, of course, he almost

938
01:00:02,110 --> 01:00:05,827
undoes the work that George Washington
put in place during the American

939
01:00:05,910 --> 01:00:07,470
Revolution. He chose

940
01:00:08,590 --> 01:00:12,223
Virginia. He didn't leave... He didn't
resign his commission in the United States

941
01:00:12,306 --> 01:00:12,447
Army

942
01:00:12,530 --> 01:00:15,859
to go with the Confederacy. He resigned
his commission in the United States Army

943
01:00:15,942 --> 01:00:20,550
to, to go to Virginia, which wasn't in the
Confederacy yet, become the head of state

944
01:00:20,670 --> 01:00:24,227
forces in Virginia.
But then when Virginia went into the

945
01:00:24,310 --> 01:00:28,770
Confederacy, he took his Confederate
commission and ended up as the

946
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:32,995
third-ranking officer
in Confederate service,

947
01:00:33,078 --> 01:00:35,290
and he makes an easy transition to

948
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:40,020
A Confederate loyalty.
I think it's his loyalty to Virginia

949
01:00:40,180 --> 01:00:43,617
and what that means. That means his
family, and of course that means slavery.

950
01:00:43,700 --> 01:00:47,477
That's part of what that loyalty is.
He's devoted to the slave-holding

951
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,437
South as well as to Virginia.
Virginia's a subset of that. All of

952
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,340
that is in one bundle with Lee.
It's all... But

953
01:00:55,620 --> 01:00:59,217
th- he also had been
an ardent US nationalist

954
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:02,400
earlier in his career,
and a very successful military officer.

955
01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:05,986
Winfield Scott thought he was the greatest
soldier in the army, and Scott,

956
01:01:06,069 --> 01:01:06,797
he probably really

957
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,717
thought, "Except for me." But Scott
is a great soldier that people don't

958
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:14,344
remember that way because he became
a kinda Jabba the Hutt figure by the time

959
01:01:14,427 --> 01:01:14,697
of the

960
01:01:14,780 --> 01:01:18,680
Civil War. He's enormous, weighs 350
pounds, has to be winched onto his horse.

961
01:01:19,780 --> 01:01:23,697
But he was a very smart guy
and he thought very highly

962
01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:27,980
of Lee. Lee was a superb soldier,
as he would show during the war,

963
01:01:28,940 --> 01:01:30,290
but he's on the wrong side.

964
01:01:30,780 --> 01:01:33,680
- Maybe just to throw in a few
more characters, I do think

965
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,520
the folks on both sides that are the,

966
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:41,237
of the more radical persuasion are quite
interesting. Somebody you spoke about,

967
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,817
I'm not sure where, think it might've
been in your lecture series about Thaddeus

968
01:01:44,900 --> 01:01:45,733
Stevens.

969
01:01:47,030 --> 01:01:48,430
- Yes, the Thaddeus Stevens.

970
01:01:48,660 --> 01:01:51,717
Thaddeus Stevens was one of the most
radical of the radical Republicans.

971
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,010
He's a congressman from Pennsylvania

972
01:01:54,860 --> 01:01:58,697
who... People think people say harsh
things now in Congress. Thaddeus Stevens

973
01:01:58,780 --> 01:02:04,137
just eviscerated people. And he
was way out... I mean, he was an ardent

974
01:02:04,220 --> 01:02:08,040
abolitionist and for equal
rights for women in many ways and,

975
01:02:08,180 --> 01:02:10,980
and he picked up a number
of causes and championed them.

976
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,892
- I think in your lecture you
mentioned this thing which I just love,

977
01:02:15,976 --> 01:02:21,070
the slime line. - He had a-- This is his
kind of line. He's sitting in the House of

978
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,107
Representatives and one of his opponents-

979
01:02:24,190 --> 01:02:27,688
... and he's speaking, and one of his
opponents starts to come down to the floor

980
01:02:27,771 --> 01:02:31,897
and he says, and this is a paraphrase,
"I'm gonna pause while my colleague,"

981
01:02:31,980 --> 01:02:35,797
from wherever he was from, "slinks
across the floor of this House and

982
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:38,277
adheres to his seat by his own slime."

983
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,520
- Yeah. Beautiful.
- That's a great line. Impromptu.

984
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,430
He had a... Women used to ask
for locks of hair as, from

985
01:02:45,540 --> 01:02:49,437
famous people, and he was completely
bald and wore a full wig. He had

986
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:53,397
a woman stop him on the steps
to the Capitol and ask for a lock of his

987
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,220
hair, took his whole wig off and said,
"Madam, have them all." And c-

988
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,580
- Which is brilliant - no, it's very good.

989
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:01,580
- But of the radical persuasion.

990
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:05,840
- Oh, absolutely. Yes, he defined it.
He is the character in Birth of a Nation

991
01:03:06,740 --> 01:03:10,577
Stoneman, the character of Stoneman,
the evil radical Republican

992
01:03:10,660 --> 01:03:13,580
named Stoneman,
is patterned on Thaddeus Stevens.

993
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:18,440
- All right. If we can, let's
talk about the buildup to the war.

994
01:03:18,980 --> 01:03:23,500
- All right. - What were the key
states on both sides that were debating?

995
01:03:23,740 --> 01:03:27,337
What are the ones that were
certainly going to be

996
01:03:27,420 --> 01:03:31,357
firmly on one side or the other?
And maybe what are the ones that

997
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,440
were critical at the, at the borderline?

998
01:03:33,900 --> 01:03:37,305
- The states that were in the forefront of
the secession movement were the Deep South

999
01:03:37,389 --> 01:03:41,717
states, and South Carolina was kind
of ground central for what was going

1000
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,617
on there. It just so happened
that the Democrats had their national

1001
01:03:45,700 --> 01:03:49,517
convention in Charleston in 1860,
which is the worst place in the

1002
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:56,320
world they could've had it if they wanted
a quiet, rational discussion of anything.

1003
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:59,853
South Carolina is the first state
to secede, and then is quickly followed.

1004
01:03:59,937 --> 01:04:04,120
You can just go the tier across Alabama,
Mississippi, Florida, Georgia,

1005
01:04:04,420 --> 01:04:07,930
Texas. That's the... It's seven
states. The Deep South states go

1006
01:04:08,100 --> 01:04:11,917
out in that initial...
But there's a long period then,

1007
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,317
and they gather in Montgomery, Alabama,
to establish a new government with

1008
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:17,950
Montgomery as the capital
of the Confederacy.

1009
01:04:18,660 --> 01:04:22,537
Delegates from those states do.
And they set up a provisional government

1010
01:04:22,620 --> 01:04:25,857
that's gonna last a year and call
for the first national elections in

1011
01:04:25,940 --> 01:04:29,897
1861. There are only seven states
there, and really only six for a

1012
01:04:29,980 --> 01:04:33,537
lot of it 'cause Texas got there late.
It was the last of the first seven to

1013
01:04:33,620 --> 01:04:37,517
secede. But the states that haven't
seceded yet are the ones with

1014
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:40,837
the most people. Virginia,
which is the most populous, North

1015
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:44,760
Carolina, Tennessee,
Kentucky, Missouri. Eight

1016
01:04:44,900 --> 01:04:48,335
states have not gone out. Eight
slaveholding states have not gone out.

1017
01:04:48,418 --> 01:04:50,987
The most important one
is Virginia among those that-

1018
01:04:51,070 --> 01:04:54,030
... that have not gone out.
The question is,

1019
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,097
can they find some resolution
to all of this, or is it gonna get

1020
01:04:59,180 --> 01:05:02,917
more serious, and are those states gonna
go? And it came to focus, once again, on

1021
01:05:03,000 --> 01:05:04,360
Charleston, South Carolina,

1022
01:05:05,230 --> 01:05:08,280
and a federal installation
in Charleston Harbor, Fort Sumter.

1023
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:13,000
Much United States property and illic- and

1024
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:16,780
installations had been just
given over to the Confederates.

1025
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:21,420
And the question is, can we do it
with this one as well? This is a very

1026
01:05:21,540 --> 01:05:25,397
difficult decision to make,
and it comes down to what's gonna

1027
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:29,347
happen in Charleston Harbor. And in the
end, I mean, Jefferson Davis believed

1028
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:33,277
that he couldn't allow it to remain a
federal installation 'cause it's actually

1029
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:37,277
in the Confederacy from their point
of view. And Lincoln, who's not

1030
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:41,257
conceding the right of states to secede.
They're, they're temporarily out

1031
01:05:41,340 --> 01:05:45,257
of our power, but we have to maintain...
He decided in the end to maintain

1032
01:05:45,340 --> 01:05:50,720
power there, not to reinforce it,
but to resupply it, needed supplies.

1033
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:55,447
And that's what triggers it. Then,
then the ball's in Jefferson Davis' court.

1034
01:05:55,530 --> 01:05:59,457
"Okay, they're gonna resupply it. What
do we do?" And they decided we need to

1035
01:05:59,540 --> 01:06:03,397
insist that it surrender, and if it won't
surrender, we need to fire on it. And

1036
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:06,072
the Confederates fired the first shots.
They would've said,

1037
01:06:06,156 --> 01:06:07,377
"We were forced to fire the

1038
01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:11,217
first shots by what Lincoln did." Nobody
wanted to be the ones who fired the first

1039
01:06:11,300 --> 01:06:14,980
shots. But in the end, it's the
Confederates who fired the first shots.

1040
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:19,117
And once that is fired,
the key thing, the key

1041
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,740
thing is not the firing
on Sumter in the end,

1042
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,510
but that sets up the key thing,
which is Lincoln's call

1043
01:06:26,380 --> 01:06:30,000
for volunteers to suppress the rebellion,
and he is gonna ask each

1044
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:31,540
state to supply people.

1045
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:36,317
And the Upper South states, most of them
have said, "We're not gonna secede, but

1046
01:06:36,400 --> 01:06:40,137
you can't... But, but the states
that are gone had the right to secede-

1047
01:06:40,220 --> 01:06:44,157
... and you can't do anything to make
them come back." Lincoln is seeming to

1048
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:49,150
make them do things to come back.
And so four more states went out.

1049
01:06:49,550 --> 01:06:53,290
Virginia went out. Arkansas
went out. Tennessee went out.

1050
01:06:53,730 --> 01:06:57,687
Then North Carolina went out.
And now you have an 11-state Confederacy

1051
01:06:57,770 --> 01:07:01,110
rather than seven. But more
than that, you have Virginia.

1052
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,827
The city of Richmond has 40% of all
the industrial capacity in the entire

1053
01:07:05,910 --> 01:07:09,767
Confederacy, what became the Confederacy.
Virginia is the most populous state, has

1054
01:07:09,850 --> 01:07:13,150
the largest slave population,
the largest white population.

1055
01:07:13,750 --> 01:07:17,487
It supplies the most important
military leaders. And the

1056
01:07:17,570 --> 01:07:20,910
capital ends up in Richmond.
They move from Montgomery to Richmond

1057
01:07:22,070 --> 01:07:25,807
in acknowledgment of how important
Richmond is, that this is the key

1058
01:07:25,890 --> 01:07:29,370
state. The key states that didn't
go out were Maryland, Kentucky,

1059
01:07:30,030 --> 01:07:32,221
and Missouri. Delaware
didn't either, but who cares?

1060
01:07:32,304 --> 01:07:33,967
The other three didn't go out, and that

1061
01:07:34,050 --> 01:07:37,790
really mattered because they were
more populous. But 11 are gone.

1062
01:07:38,690 --> 01:07:39,940
Four remain in the Union.

1063
01:07:40,630 --> 01:07:43,680
- And to lay out some more context,
going to Perplexity here,

1064
01:07:44,670 --> 01:07:48,610
by total enslaved population
on the eve of the Civil War,

1065
01:07:49,190 --> 01:07:52,670
we have looking at the top
five states, Virginia,

1066
01:07:53,490 --> 01:07:57,410
as you said, with the most
number of slaves, 490,000.

1067
01:07:57,570 --> 01:08:03,770
Then Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, South
Carolina, all with over 400,000 slaves.

1068
01:08:04,170 --> 01:08:07,867
- Yes. And Mississippi and South
Carolina have the highest proportion of

1069
01:08:07,950 --> 01:08:11,607
enslaved people of any
of the states. And this is an

1070
01:08:11,690 --> 01:08:13,507
interesting little fact
from the 1860 census.

1071
01:08:13,590 --> 01:08:15,467
When you're talking
about white people in the

1072
01:08:15,550 --> 01:08:18,833
United States, those are the two
wealthiest states per capita in the United

1073
01:08:18,916 --> 01:08:23,487
States, are South Carolina
and Mississippi in 1860.

1074
01:08:23,570 --> 01:08:26,750
- Boy, the complicated history
of this great nation of ours.

1075
01:08:27,210 --> 01:08:30,890
- It's hard to overstate the resources.
The states that sent the most men

1076
01:08:31,070 --> 01:08:33,330
into the Confederate Army are Virginia,

1077
01:08:34,230 --> 01:08:37,920
Tennessee, North Carolina,
and Georgia. Three of those

1078
01:08:38,130 --> 01:08:41,907
come in this second wave of secessions.
Three of them, three of the four. Only

1079
01:08:41,990 --> 01:08:44,652
Georgia among the original ones
was in those top four states.

1080
01:08:44,735 --> 01:08:50,027
And so you would have had a much,
much smaller pool of manpower for that

1081
01:08:50,110 --> 01:08:54,087
earlier version of the Confederacy. It's
inconceivable to me that you would have

1082
01:08:54,170 --> 01:08:56,270
had the war we had with just that version.

1083
01:08:56,710 --> 01:08:58,950
- So it does feel, just to linger on it,

1084
01:08:59,970 --> 01:09:03,870
like there was a lot on the
balance here. Like there was a

1085
01:09:03,990 --> 01:09:07,020
lot of different decisions
that could have been made,

1086
01:09:08,310 --> 01:09:12,160
even on the political side,
that could have turned the tides.

1087
01:09:12,490 --> 01:09:16,070
- For example, there's
a secession convention in Virginia.

1088
01:09:16,710 --> 01:09:20,110
It goes in... It votes
twice against secession.

1089
01:09:20,690 --> 01:09:24,570
Twice. It's only after Sumter
that they come back for another vote.

1090
01:09:24,770 --> 01:09:28,290
I mean, it's a Unionist vote
in that convention in Virginia.

1091
01:09:29,270 --> 01:09:31,770
And it's only after Fort Sumter.

1092
01:09:32,050 --> 01:09:35,610
- Wow. - And then it's still so
divided that a big chunk of Virginia

1093
01:09:36,190 --> 01:09:39,647
decide that's how you get West Virginia.
West Virginia essentially

1094
01:09:39,730 --> 01:09:42,807
secedes from Virginia-...
in the course of the Civil War.

1095
01:09:42,890 --> 01:09:45,670
- And given the industrial capacity
of Virginia, that was a critical state.

1096
01:09:45,754 --> 01:09:46,954
So it could have been...

1097
01:09:47,390 --> 01:09:51,870
Virginia could have changed. We could have
avoided the Civil War with Virginia alone.

1098
01:09:52,010 --> 01:09:56,070
- It would have really changed. I mean,
Virginia is the key. Virginia is the key

1099
01:09:56,910 --> 01:10:00,410
because of the manpower, the industrial
capacity, the food production,

1100
01:10:00,550 --> 01:10:04,147
and Virginia gives you Lee, Jackson, Jeb

1101
01:10:04,230 --> 01:10:07,607
Stuart. I mean, it, and the most
soldiers of any state in the

1102
01:10:07,690 --> 01:10:11,530
Confederacy. It's just, it's a real game

1103
01:10:11,630 --> 01:10:15,450
changer to get Virginia.
Plus, it also gives you these

1104
01:10:15,550 --> 01:10:19,487
unbelievable ties to the revolutionary
generation. Hey, it's George's

1105
01:10:19,570 --> 01:10:23,507
home state. It is now in the
Confederacy with his big statue

1106
01:10:23,590 --> 01:10:26,246
on the Capitol grounds of George
Washington. I mean, gives you,

1107
01:10:26,330 --> 01:10:27,327
you get Washington, the

1108
01:10:27,410 --> 01:10:31,410
ties to Jefferson, the ties to Madison.
All of this comes in with Virginia.

1109
01:10:32,110 --> 01:10:36,370
- So I think a lot of historians have
said that the Civil War was inevitable.

1110
01:10:37,350 --> 01:10:41,350
It... You're really painting a picture
here where it perhaps was not inevitable.

1111
01:10:41,970 --> 01:10:45,847
- I don't think it's inevitable.
Things happen in a sequence. I was at a

1112
01:10:45,930 --> 01:10:49,582
conf- academic conference once when they
were trying to decide what important dates

1113
01:10:49,665 --> 01:10:53,567
were, and one... And they concluded
that no dates are, dates are an

1114
01:10:53,650 --> 01:10:57,287
artificial construction.
No date is more important than any other.

1115
01:10:57,370 --> 01:11:00,947
That is so obviously preposterous.
I mean, things

1116
01:11:01,030 --> 01:11:04,630
happen in a sequence. They don't just
sort of happen. Lincoln's elected,

1117
01:11:04,830 --> 01:11:08,487
then South Carolina secedes, then other
states secede, then... I mean, things

1118
01:11:08,570 --> 01:11:12,147
happen as a consequence of what happened
before, and you have these various

1119
01:11:12,230 --> 01:11:16,047
things that have to happen
before the next thing does. And

1120
01:11:16,130 --> 01:11:18,880
then we end up with a war
that seems to be inevitable,

1121
01:11:19,690 --> 01:11:23,527
but it's not... It's just the way things
played out. All of these factors are in

1122
01:11:23,610 --> 01:11:26,638
motion, and you end up with the sequence
that gets you to where people start

1123
01:11:26,721 --> 01:11:27,721
shooting each other.

1124
01:11:28,130 --> 01:11:31,027
- Yeah. When you read history
and look back, it seems inevitable.

1125
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:31,847
But if we were to

1126
01:11:31,930 --> 01:11:35,554
place ourselves in that moment of time,
do you think there's decisions that could

1127
01:11:35,637 --> 01:11:36,470
have been made?

1128
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:40,807
- The decision to not let
Fort Sumter, I mean, that's a

1129
01:11:40,890 --> 01:11:43,433
big decision to make. If they had
just, if Lincoln had just said,

1130
01:11:43,517 --> 01:11:45,117
"Go ahead and take Fort Sumter,"

1131
01:11:45,870 --> 01:11:49,570
okay, then maybe... Then what
would it have taken to trigger

1132
01:11:49,850 --> 01:11:51,681
the departure of those upper South states?

1133
01:11:51,764 --> 01:11:53,964
That would have changed
that whole equation.

1134
01:11:54,190 --> 01:11:57,070
But Lincoln decided you
just can't keep giving them

1135
01:11:57,730 --> 01:12:00,879
everything that they want if you don't
concede that they have the right to do

1136
01:12:00,962 --> 01:12:05,510
what they did. - Yeah, there would
be a continued heated political

1137
01:12:06,430 --> 01:12:10,267
debates, intense political debates
about the expansion of slavery, but it

1138
01:12:10,350 --> 01:12:15,670
would not cause rebellion to then
escalate into a full-on hot war.

1139
01:12:16,290 --> 01:12:20,190
- I think that's conceivable. I don't
think the war was inevitable. I think it

1140
01:12:20,330 --> 01:12:24,290
But I think the conditions were
present for it to happen, obviously.

1141
01:12:24,410 --> 01:12:28,127
I mean, that's stating...
'Cause it did happen. But I think it's

1142
01:12:28,210 --> 01:12:32,067
very tricky to just say that it
was inevitable. That's kind

1143
01:12:32,150 --> 01:12:34,093
of starting at the end
of the story and just saying,

1144
01:12:34,176 --> 01:12:35,947
"Let's look at the factors
that got us here.

1145
01:12:36,030 --> 01:12:39,667
We know it was gonna happen, and these are
the things that pointed this direction."

1146
01:12:39,750 --> 01:12:43,337
- Can we just actually linger
on this, on the nature of war?

1147
01:12:43,421 --> 01:12:44,950
Over 700,000 people dead.

1148
01:12:45,950 --> 01:12:51,610
How do we make sense of our capacity as,
in that context, Americans?

1149
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:57,417
To kill sometimes literally our brothers
- Yes, sometimes literally our brothers

1150
01:12:57,500 --> 01:12:58,717
- How is that even possible?

1151
01:12:58,800 --> 01:13:02,267
- Well, one thing, it tells me things are
pretty important to people on both sides

1152
01:13:02,350 --> 01:13:06,617
if you're gonna continue for a war that
long. I mean, there was a period in the

1153
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:08,650
literature, in the scholarly literature

1154
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,957
in the 1980s and into the 1990s
where they argued that the Confederacy

1155
01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:16,183
wasn't a nation, and the proof was that
they didn't try very hard, that they...

1156
01:13:16,267 --> 01:13:16,877
If they'd really

1157
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:20,617
thought of themselves as a nation, they
would have tried harder and fought longer.

1158
01:13:20,700 --> 01:13:24,377
Well, they lost between four and a half
and five and a half percent of their

1159
01:13:24,460 --> 01:13:30,460
entire population, which is more
than Great Britain, France, Germany,

1160
01:13:31,280 --> 01:13:35,177
or Russia during World War I.
They had a higher percentage loss than any

1161
01:13:35,260 --> 01:13:39,910
of the powers in World War I. The US lost
about 1.8% of its population from the war.

1162
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,820
US, in World War II, three-tenths
of 1% of its population... That seems...

1163
01:13:44,980 --> 01:13:48,260
They lost more than 30%
of their entire white military-age

1164
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:52,037
males in the war. It'd be the equivalent
of about 18 million Americans being killed

1165
01:13:52,120 --> 01:13:57,735
now in a war. That seems to me that
they're pretty serious about something

1166
01:13:57,818 --> 01:14:02,220
there. - It means that's one
of the largest percentages of loss.

1167
01:14:02,850 --> 01:14:04,977
That's... If that's
a measure of dedication-

1168
01:14:05,060 --> 01:14:08,957
- If that's your measure of dedication,
yes, and it seems to me that it should be

1169
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,897
one of the metrics that you bring
to play that, that it's... They just keep

1170
01:14:12,980 --> 01:14:15,140
at it. They didn't give up easily.

1171
01:14:15,600 --> 01:14:20,260
- What can we say about the motivation?
On the psychological side, did the

1172
01:14:21,360 --> 01:14:25,157
members of the Confederacy
hate the members of the Union?

1173
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,671
- Well, that escalated
on both sides during the war.

1174
01:14:27,754 --> 01:14:29,077
As more and more loss came,

1175
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:33,097
you... They did. There was more hatred
directed toward the enemy more and more.

1176
01:14:33,180 --> 01:14:37,280
This notion that it's they're all brothers
and not really mad at each other and...

1177
01:14:37,460 --> 01:14:39,260
That just doesn't hold up. There are

1178
01:14:39,940 --> 01:14:43,677
places where the soldiers fraternized
with one another and traded tobacco for

1179
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:46,410
coffee and that kind of stuff,
but no, the bitterness

1180
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,617
as the war went on, and there was greater
loss on the home front, and as the

1181
01:14:50,700 --> 01:14:54,680
war became more all-encompassing
and really went after the entire,

1182
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:59,237
The civilian side of the Confederacy
was not shielded from it, the

1183
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:03,097
bitterness increased and increased
and increased. And there's a

1184
01:15:03,180 --> 01:15:06,590
lot of unhappiness with the war
behind the lines in the Confederacy,

1185
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:11,190
absolutely, unhappiness with the
government. There's desertion.

1186
01:15:12,620 --> 01:15:15,150
About 15% of Confederate
soldiers deserted.

1187
01:15:16,160 --> 01:15:19,717
About 12% of United States
soldiers deserted. So there's

1188
01:15:19,800 --> 01:15:22,400
desertion on both sides.
There's war-weariness,

1189
01:15:23,220 --> 01:15:27,177
but the war goes on because I think
if you had been able to poll most white

1190
01:15:27,260 --> 01:15:30,810
Southerners even late in the war and say,
"Okay, here are your choices.

1191
01:15:32,780 --> 01:15:35,637
You either have Jefferson Davis
in the government and the war goes on,

1192
01:15:35,720 --> 01:15:36,537
or you're going back

1193
01:15:36,620 --> 01:15:40,110
into the United States and the Lincoln
government will be in charge and you won't

1194
01:15:40,194 --> 01:15:40,317
have

1195
01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:44,337
slavery. Which one do you pick?" They're
gonna pick the first one, and that's why

1196
01:15:44,420 --> 01:15:46,120
the war went on as long as it did.

1197
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:49,520
- But at the same time, to fast-forward,

1198
01:15:50,740 --> 01:15:55,520
and that maybe teaches you something about
the nature of war, but after the war,

1199
01:15:56,900 --> 01:16:00,457
maybe some of the decisions
that Grant made, people were able to

1200
01:16:00,540 --> 01:16:03,777
rediscover the brotherhood. - You mean
at Appomattox you're talking about-

1201
01:16:03,860 --> 01:16:05,097
- Appomattox -... the terms at Appomattox.

1202
01:16:05,180 --> 01:16:08,030
- Yes. - Yes, the...
And those were... And he didn't just

1203
01:16:08,820 --> 01:16:11,353
reach up in the air and say,
"I've got some terms." The...

1204
01:16:11,437 --> 01:16:12,697
Lincoln very specifically...

1205
01:16:12,780 --> 01:16:16,320
He met with Lincoln shortly before
Appomattox. Sherman was there.

1206
01:16:16,860 --> 01:16:20,737
One top naval officer was there, Grant
and Lincoln, and Lincoln said, "This is

1207
01:16:20,820 --> 01:16:22,397
what I want.
This is the kind of peace I want."

1208
01:16:22,480 --> 01:16:26,420
"The whole point of this war is to put
the nation back together, and a good

1209
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:27,620
start on that is..."

1210
01:16:28,500 --> 01:16:32,457
I mean, if it's just a rebellion,
what do you do with traitors and rebels?

1211
01:16:32,540 --> 01:16:36,356
You hang them. You don't bring them back.
You don't treat them as prisoners of war,

1212
01:16:36,440 --> 01:16:37,437
which the United States

1213
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:40,896
did during this. You, he... But the goal
is to put the nation back together,

1214
01:16:40,979 --> 01:16:46,040
and Lincoln said, "This is a good start.
Make them sign a parole. Make them accept

1215
01:16:47,060 --> 01:16:49,637
the end of slavery and the fact
that they're back in the Union.

1216
01:16:49,721 --> 01:16:50,957
If they do that, they get to go

1217
01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:54,817
home and resume their lives." Hadn't
been decided yet whether they'll get to

1218
01:16:54,900 --> 01:16:58,837
vote, but let them go home.
Don't imprison them. Don't execute

1219
01:16:58,920 --> 01:17:01,937
them. Don't execute their leaders.
That's the decision.

1220
01:17:02,020 --> 01:17:04,440
- From the perspective of the Union,
what do you think about that kind

1221
01:17:04,524 --> 01:17:05,357
of forgiveness?

1222
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,397
- Well, I think that it was sort
of a nod toward the direction of

1223
01:17:09,480 --> 01:17:13,207
forgiveness, but I don't think the real...
I don't think real forgiveness was there.

1224
01:17:13,290 --> 01:17:16,937
It was still extremely hard
feelings on both sides, and Lincoln's

1225
01:17:17,020 --> 01:17:20,850
assassination upped the ante
on that, especially for a while,

1226
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:24,710
in the United States.
The, the forgiveness...

1227
01:17:27,700 --> 01:17:31,577
Two things in terms of the aftermath
of the war, two words that often come into

1228
01:17:31,660 --> 01:17:35,300
play are reunion and reconciliation.

1229
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:39,657
Those are two other things that are
often conflated. Reunion is literally

1230
01:17:39,740 --> 01:17:43,297
putting the nation back together.
That happened. Reconcile, true

1231
01:17:43,380 --> 01:17:47,317
reconciliation, that's much,
much, much tougher, and that didn't

1232
01:17:47,400 --> 01:17:51,440
come anytime soon on the part of millions
of people on both sides, I think.

1233
01:17:51,940 --> 01:17:57,957
- And we'll probably maybe talk about
in multiple ways how maybe that is

1234
01:17:58,040 --> 01:17:59,377
something that's still going on.

1235
01:17:59,460 --> 01:18:02,083
- Oh, there are echoes of the
Civil War all over the place.

1236
01:18:02,166 --> 01:18:03,566
It's not still being fought,

1237
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,417
but you can see resonances
of the Civil War because it's such a

1238
01:18:07,500 --> 01:18:11,337
profoundly disruptive
event that gets right

1239
01:18:11,420 --> 01:18:15,257
at the heart of what the republic means.
I mean, and so it's... There's nothing

1240
01:18:15,340 --> 01:18:19,560
else like it in US history,
and it's a great moment of truth,

1241
01:18:20,540 --> 01:18:24,037
the residual aftermath
and effects of which lingered for

1242
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:26,720
decades and are still
present in some ways, I think.

1243
01:18:27,500 --> 01:18:33,540
- So in 1859, most Americans
were just living their life.

1244
01:18:34,900 --> 01:18:38,380
Did they have a sense
what was on the horizon?

1245
01:18:39,140 --> 01:18:41,390
- It's what I like to call
the Appomattox Syndrome,

1246
01:18:41,473 --> 01:18:43,273
which starts at the end of the story

1247
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:47,255
And says, "Of course there was gonna
be a war because the war was inevitable,

1248
01:18:47,338 --> 01:18:50,872
and of course the United States was gonna
win and slavery was gonna be destroyed,"

1249
01:18:50,956 --> 01:18:53,906
because they were. So let's
find out how we got right here.

1250
01:18:54,100 --> 01:18:58,017
But no, most people didn't
wake up in Iowa in 1857

1251
01:18:58,100 --> 01:19:00,367
and their first thought was,
"Boy, I hate the South."

1252
01:19:00,450 --> 01:19:03,817
"Those slaveholders, they're really..."
No. People got on with their

1253
01:19:03,900 --> 01:19:07,817
quotidian lives and they got to the farm
or they went to their business and

1254
01:19:07,900 --> 01:19:11,700
they did... They weren't...
Nobody knew that they were living in the

1255
01:19:11,800 --> 01:19:16,546
antebellum era, and that those great
antebellum years were about to come to

1256
01:19:16,629 --> 01:19:21,100
an end. They... That is something
that it's hard to get people not...

1257
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:24,648
To just put it out of your mind that
that's all anybody is thinking about.

1258
01:19:24,731 --> 01:19:27,631
They're thinking, "There's
a lot of other stuff going on."

1259
01:19:28,680 --> 01:19:32,117
There's a big gold rush in Colorado.
More people go to Colorado than went to

1260
01:19:32,200 --> 01:19:35,990
California for a while.
There is... And you have

1261
01:19:36,080 --> 01:19:40,010
these tremendous changes coming about,

1262
01:19:40,860 --> 01:19:44,817
technological changes of the 1850s
where you have the real expansion of

1263
01:19:44,900 --> 01:19:48,777
railroads, the real expansion of the
telegraph. There's a shrinking of time and

1264
01:19:48,860 --> 01:19:52,697
space that's remarkable for people
at the time. It seemed dizzying

1265
01:19:52,780 --> 01:19:56,346
to them at the time. There are a lot of
things to think about other than how much

1266
01:19:56,430 --> 01:20:00,184
I hate Yankees if I'm in South Carolina,
or I hate slaveholders if I live in New

1267
01:20:00,267 --> 01:20:01,100
Hampshire.

1268
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:05,520
But periodically, there are
these events that pop up that

1269
01:20:05,740 --> 01:20:09,320
refocus on the differences
between the sections.

1270
01:20:09,580 --> 01:20:13,417
And you have the Kansas-Nebraska Act.
You have Dred

1271
01:20:13,500 --> 01:20:17,860
Scott. You have the caning of Charles
Sumner on the floor of the Senate.

1272
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:22,470
You have Uncle Tom's Cabin earlier
in the decade in 18-- and what...

1273
01:20:22,570 --> 01:20:26,317
And the impact that that had on attitudes
towards slavery. Doesn't create a bunch of

1274
01:20:26,400 --> 01:20:30,277
abolitionists, but it creates
a bunch of people who rethink their

1275
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:31,510
thoughts about slavery.

1276
01:20:32,420 --> 01:20:36,860
- Sorry to ask the big
question about history. But,

1277
01:20:38,360 --> 01:20:40,660
you know, we're living today, 2026,

1278
01:20:43,140 --> 01:20:46,070
and there's the sense
that every day you wake up,

1279
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,280
the possibilities before us are endless,

1280
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:55,160
for the good, for the bad,
for the truly destructive. There's a

1281
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:59,560
an eerie sense that the possibility
of a world war in different kinds of ways,

1282
01:21:00,420 --> 01:21:07,420
whether it's sparked in the Middle East
or sparked in China and Taiwan, or sparked

1283
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:09,100
in Ukraine-Russia,

1284
01:21:10,060 --> 01:21:13,797
or elsewhere totally surprising
in the world, may be related to nuclear

1285
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:17,260
weapons or not. There's a sense
that everything is possible.

1286
01:21:17,880 --> 01:21:20,980
And of course, when history
is written about the 21st century,

1287
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:25,460
it will all be obvious. - It's always
obvious in retrospect. That's right.

1288
01:21:25,600 --> 01:21:32,600
- What can we learn about... from the
Civil War about how history unfolds

1289
01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:35,420
itself, I suppose, for the modern day?

1290
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:38,020
- Well, I think that
the potential threats now

1291
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:41,525
are different from the potential
threats in the mid-19th century.

1292
01:21:41,609 --> 01:21:46,590
The nuclear dimension,
some kind of really brutal use of

1293
01:21:46,990 --> 01:21:50,777
pathogens. I mean, there are lots of
things that could happen now that couldn't

1294
01:21:50,860 --> 01:21:57,360
happen then, at least not because humans
were making them happen. But I mean, to,

1295
01:21:58,180 --> 01:22:02,900
to me, one of the things to take away from
the Civil War is really the resiliency

1296
01:22:03,980 --> 01:22:07,917
of this republic, which I
still think it's a resilient

1297
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:10,600
republic. We're living
in a sort of wacky time.

1298
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:14,620
Uh, but I believe that the...
I think that...

1299
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:18,577
I have a great faith in the
resiliency of the nation, I really

1300
01:22:18,660 --> 01:22:21,909
do, of the United States. I think it's
been through much tougher times than we're

1301
01:22:21,992 --> 01:22:22,825
in now,

1302
01:22:23,060 --> 01:22:26,937
and I think that we will
weather this, although everybody

1303
01:22:27,020 --> 01:22:30,917
will have some scar tissue.
There might even come a

1304
01:22:31,000 --> 01:22:34,577
time when our leadership class
actually leads, and which would be

1305
01:22:34,660 --> 01:22:38,500
interesting. And I'm saying,
you know, I'm talking about both

1306
01:22:38,700 --> 01:22:42,580
sides of the fence here.
But it is... That, to me,

1307
01:22:43,460 --> 01:22:47,317
this is, this is the supreme test
of a republic that had been put in

1308
01:22:47,400 --> 01:22:50,697
place in the late 18th century.
Can that late 18th century republic

1309
01:22:50,780 --> 01:22:54,357
adjust, including adjusting
to deal with the profoundly

1310
01:22:54,440 --> 01:22:58,337
disruptive issue of slavery,
in a way that allows it

1311
01:22:58,420 --> 01:23:02,197
to go forward? And the answer
is yes. In a war that brings

1312
01:23:02,280 --> 01:23:06,240
slaughter on an unimaginable scale
and brings social disruption in the former

1313
01:23:06,380 --> 01:23:10,337
slave-holding states on an unimaginable...
It just couldn't be more profoundly

1314
01:23:10,420 --> 01:23:14,197
disruptive if you're a Confederate.
There's not slavery

1315
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:18,057
anymore, and we lost the war, and a third
of our military-age white men are dead.

1316
01:23:18,140 --> 01:23:21,997
Wow, that's a bad four years
for our team. What's gonna

1317
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:25,877
happen here? The Republic emerged from
that and worked it out, and I think it

1318
01:23:25,960 --> 01:23:28,860
is... It goes back to, to me,

1319
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:33,047
the intelligence of the founding
generation that put in place documents

1320
01:23:33,130 --> 01:23:36,550
that actually allowed the Republic
to deal with something like this.

1321
01:23:36,700 --> 01:23:39,400
And it's sort of a miracle to me

1322
01:23:40,340 --> 01:23:43,777
that from a nation that
was as prejudiced, racially

1323
01:23:43,860 --> 01:23:47,737
prejudiced as the United
States was, you get the 13th,

1324
01:23:47,820 --> 01:23:51,720
14th, and 15th Amendments
out of this. It's just kind of

1325
01:23:53,880 --> 01:23:55,700
mind-boggling that that happens.

1326
01:23:56,860 --> 01:24:00,660
- Yeah, I think resilience and

1327
01:24:01,580 --> 01:24:05,237
adaptive innovation often
looks like chaos in the moment.

1328
01:24:05,320 --> 01:24:09,237
- It absolutely does. It absolutely does.
But then when you really get

1329
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:13,057
to the end of that story, you look,
and there you are, and oh, it's okay, the

1330
01:24:13,140 --> 01:24:18,449
nation is still intact.
And the 13th Amendment is in place. Wow,

1331
01:24:18,532 --> 01:24:22,680
we didn't think- ...
that was gonna happen in 1861-

1332
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:26,757
... when secession started. I mean, it
really... One, another lesson is that you

1333
01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:32,147
cannot control what a great
military event can set loose.

1334
01:24:32,230 --> 01:24:37,097
I mean, no, things that nobody imagined
would happen, including expansion of

1335
01:24:37,180 --> 01:24:38,013
central power

1336
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:41,791
in ways that no one would have imagined.
You don't get to ratchet that back

1337
01:24:41,874 --> 01:24:44,828
and say, "Well, that'll never happen
again." No, you know what? It happened,

1338
01:24:44,911 --> 01:24:46,657
and maybe it will happen
again because we've

1339
01:24:46,740 --> 01:24:50,377
seen it happen. Nobody imagined that.
The federal budget in

1340
01:24:50,460 --> 01:24:54,340
1860 was $63 million.
That was the entire federal budget.

1341
01:24:55,220 --> 01:24:59,197
The federal budget in 1865
was $1.2 billion, and

1342
01:24:59,280 --> 01:25:02,505
if you throw in the Confederate side
of that, it gets you over $2 billion,

1343
01:25:02,588 --> 01:25:03,037
which means

1344
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:10,120
federal expenditures in 1860 would've
lasted about 11 days in 1865. Nobody

1345
01:25:10,540 --> 01:25:14,200
foresaw that. Absolutely
nobody foresaw that. And

1346
01:25:16,140 --> 01:25:19,537
education legislation that would
create the great land grant colleges and

1347
01:25:19,620 --> 01:25:25,320
universities and no- it's...
The war brought a lot

1348
01:25:26,220 --> 01:25:31,357
- And I think most of the things that have
happened through the hard periods of our

1349
01:25:31,440 --> 01:25:33,910
country's history,
nobody could have really f-

1350
01:25:34,380 --> 01:25:38,960
foreseen, and then we somehow figure
it out, and that gives me a lot of hope.

1351
01:25:39,120 --> 01:25:45,380
- We- - That this kinda like extreme
division, the arguments, the people

1352
01:25:45,540 --> 01:25:49,040
basically speaking in the harshest
of ways against each other,

1353
01:25:50,820 --> 01:25:53,720
that is like the engine of,

1354
01:25:54,540 --> 01:26:01,540
brainstorming and figuring problems out
that in the long arc of history create

1355
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:06,060
progress. But in the short term,
it feels like a dumpster fire.

1356
01:26:06,600 --> 01:26:11,940
- It does. And to me,
the arc of US history

1357
01:26:13,480 --> 01:26:17,277
has been, and Lincoln talked about this
too, it's an expansion of freedoms and

1358
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:19,560
liberties. That's the,
that's the long arc,

1359
01:26:20,380 --> 01:26:23,880
with very problematical
places along the way. But

1360
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:28,917
again, the documents allow
for that, and the process allows

1361
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,260
for that, and I think that's one
of the remarkable things about

1362
01:26:33,700 --> 01:26:38,312
Philadelphia in the summer
of 1787. I mean, those guys,

1363
01:26:38,396 --> 01:26:40,530
a lot of whom own slaves,

1364
01:26:41,780 --> 01:26:45,597
put together something that's proved to be
resilient and adaptable and changeable,

1365
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,497
and it has evolved in a way that is in
the right direction, although there are

1366
01:26:49,580 --> 01:26:51,320
always problems.

1367
01:26:52,200 --> 01:26:55,977
- I love this country.
I will never stop saying how

1368
01:26:56,060 --> 01:26:58,860
much I love this country.
It's an incredible experiment.

1369
01:26:59,740 --> 01:27:06,740
I'm... we're this year celebrating its
250th birthday. I can't wait for the next

1370
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:12,780
250 years. This is such a fascinating
study of human civilization.

1371
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:19,880
- And it is complicated. What we want now
is a sort of cartoon version of what we

1372
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:23,737
Americans, as you watch
popular culture, we want a

1373
01:27:23,820 --> 01:27:27,020
30-second view of whatever. Well,
who should I like? Who are the good guys?

1374
01:27:27,103 --> 01:27:31,080
Who are the bad guys? I want a 30-second
version of the Civil War. What do I...

1375
01:27:31,720 --> 01:27:34,840
History is not that way.
I've spent my whole life

1376
01:27:35,660 --> 01:27:39,717
studying history, and the maybe the main
thing I've learned is however complicated

1377
01:27:39,800 --> 01:27:42,410
I thought something was when
I really started to explore it,

1378
01:27:42,493 --> 01:27:43,657
it's more complicated than

1379
01:27:43,740 --> 01:27:48,250
I thought it was. People aren't simple.
They're complicated. And you have to

1380
01:27:50,360 --> 01:27:51,193
at least

1381
01:27:52,260 --> 01:27:54,495
appreciate, you don't have
to embrace the complexity.

1382
01:27:54,578 --> 01:27:56,177
I guess you can't make people do that,

1383
01:27:56,260 --> 01:27:59,334
but you have to at least concede
that things are... they're just...

1384
01:27:59,417 --> 01:28:00,097
There's not a

1385
01:28:00,180 --> 01:28:04,010
20-second version of anything in the past.
The past is complicated,

1386
01:28:04,240 --> 01:28:06,937
because humanoids are involved in it.
They're complicated.

1387
01:28:07,020 --> 01:28:10,897
- Yeah, the... when you look at the system
as a whole. But as individual humans, we

1388
01:28:10,980 --> 01:28:14,147
like to do the black and white
thing where- - Of course.

1389
01:28:14,230 --> 01:28:16,107
-... we just see the good, everything
as good and evil, and then we bicker.

1390
01:28:16,190 --> 01:28:17,197
- 'Cause it's easier.

1391
01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:20,293
- And then we get together at Thanksgiving
dinner, and we yell at each other,

1392
01:28:20,376 --> 01:28:21,117
and then people lose

1393
01:28:21,200 --> 01:28:25,060
their shit, and they stop talking
to each other for a year, and then they,

1394
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:28,717
they make up and all this 'cause this is
just how humans interact with each other.

1395
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:32,437
And, but as a system, especially
with the increasing levels of

1396
01:28:32,520 --> 01:28:36,120
freedom, with the freedoms
of speech and be able to speak out

1397
01:28:36,700 --> 01:28:40,457
about your feelings, even when they're
intense feelings, that somehow works as a

1398
01:28:40,540 --> 01:28:42,040
system. - And it's very messy.

1399
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:46,197
- Yeah, yeah. - The more freedom, the
messier it is. Really, the messier it is.

1400
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:47,850
- And your job as a historian

1401
01:28:49,050 --> 01:28:52,920
is a difficult job, and as you said,
because the more you learn,

1402
01:28:53,300 --> 01:28:56,757
the more you come to understand,
the more complicated the picture appears.

1403
01:28:56,840 --> 01:29:00,338
- Yep, and the more you learn, the more
you learn that you don't know as much

1404
01:29:00,421 --> 01:29:01,571
as you thought you did.

1405
01:29:02,020 --> 01:29:05,060
- So some humility will
take you a long way.

1406
01:29:06,380 --> 01:29:07,880
- Yes, you want more of Grant,

1407
01:29:08,720 --> 01:29:12,557
than McClellan in that,
on that humility score. Grant would

1408
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:14,340
score high on humility. McClellan,

1409
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:18,400
every day, every day the first
thought was, "What about me?"

1410
01:29:19,890 --> 01:29:23,797
"Who is gonna not appreciate how wonderful
I am today?" thought George B. McClellan.

1411
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:27,880
That's the thought that nagged at him.
"Somebody might not know how great I am."

1412
01:29:28,290 --> 01:29:31,660
That's an aside. - Reminds
me of somebody. But anyway.

1413
01:29:32,900 --> 01:29:34,861
Quick ten-second
shout-out to our sponsors.

1414
01:29:34,944 --> 01:29:36,644
Check them out in the description.

1415
01:29:36,900 --> 01:29:39,697
It really is the best way
to support this podcast. Go to

1416
01:29:39,780 --> 01:29:43,337
lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now, dear

1417
01:29:43,420 --> 01:29:46,940
friends, back to my conversation
with Gary Gallagher.

1418
01:29:48,380 --> 01:29:54,320
Okay, let's at the start, first shots
fired at Fort Sumter, as you mentioned,

1419
01:29:55,500 --> 01:30:00,370
and this thing starts brewing
and escalating towards a full-on war.

1420
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:06,640
What are the different advantages
of each side from a military perspective?

1421
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:09,779
- Here is one of the great
misconceptions about the Civil War.

1422
01:30:09,862 --> 01:30:10,957
Among the people who know

1423
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,140
anything about it, which in the US
is a very small percentage,

1424
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:19,047
but if they know anything, they know
United States' victory was inevitable.

1425
01:30:19,130 --> 01:30:22,697
Because the United States
had 22 million people.

1426
01:30:22,780 --> 01:30:25,507
The Confederacy had five
and a half million white people-

1427
01:30:25,590 --> 01:30:28,617
... and three and a half million
enslaved people. The United States'

1428
01:30:28,700 --> 01:30:32,417
economy was infinitely
more powerful than the

1429
01:30:32,500 --> 01:30:36,317
Confederate economy. The United States
had the United States Army. The United

1430
01:30:36,400 --> 01:30:38,520
States had the United States Navy.

1431
01:30:39,140 --> 01:30:42,897
Really, who's gonna win this war?
The US, it's inevitable, next

1432
01:30:42,980 --> 01:30:46,757
question. It's not true at all.
The US did have those advantages, but the

1433
01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:50,777
Confederacy had
compensating advantages. And

1434
01:30:50,860 --> 01:30:54,037
one of those advantages
was it had a much lower bar to

1435
01:30:54,120 --> 01:30:57,850
cross for success. It didn't
have to invade the United States,

1436
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,017
didn't have to capture Washington.
It didn't have to project its military

1437
01:31:02,100 --> 01:31:06,090
power into New England.
All it had to do was convince a majority

1438
01:31:06,700 --> 01:31:10,097
of the civilian population
of the loyal states that it

1439
01:31:10,180 --> 01:31:14,077
wasn't worth the cost to make
these rebel states come back into

1440
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:18,017
the Union. These are two
democratic republics at war, and in

1441
01:31:18,100 --> 01:31:21,880
the end, the civilian sector
decides. Somebody my age

1442
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:26,217
can... We have the perfect example,
Vietnam. The United States was

1443
01:31:26,300 --> 01:31:29,437
not defeated militarily in Vietnam,
and it didn't matter.

1444
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:32,392
'Cause when the people said, "We're
not gonna support this war anymore,"

1445
01:31:32,476 --> 01:31:33,377
the war's gonna come to

1446
01:31:33,460 --> 01:31:37,217
an end. The smart people in the
Confederacy understood this. They

1447
01:31:37,300 --> 01:31:41,100
understood it at the time. Lee understood
it. Jefferson Davis understood it.

1448
01:31:41,520 --> 01:31:45,137
You had key people at the time
saying, "There's no way that a

1449
01:31:45,220 --> 01:31:49,057
nation as large as ours and a population

1450
01:31:49,140 --> 01:31:52,140
as large as ours has ever been
subjected in a war like this.

1451
01:31:53,220 --> 01:31:57,017
A tie is as good as a win for the
Confederacy." And they came very close to

1452
01:31:57,100 --> 01:32:00,997
that in the summer of 1864.
The other thing is the sheer size

1453
01:32:01,080 --> 01:32:04,997
of the Confederacy is a huge
advantage to them. It's huge, with

1454
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:08,337
a very poor transportation and

1455
01:32:08,420 --> 01:32:12,380
communication infrastructure in many ways.
And to move a large army

1456
01:32:12,500 --> 01:32:16,217
deep into the Confederacy
is a huge logistical problem.

1457
01:32:16,300 --> 01:32:19,260
The same thing had happened to the British
both during the American Revolution

1458
01:32:19,344 --> 01:32:24,940
and the War of 1812. They confront this...
The Confederacy's as big as all of Western

1459
01:32:25,024 --> 01:32:25,857
Europe.

1460
01:32:27,300 --> 01:32:30,837
That's a problem. It's also a problem
that the Confederates are fighting,

1461
01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:34,070
literally fighting to defend
their homes. That's always, almost

1462
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:37,997
always a stronger factor
than trying to impose your

1463
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:41,730
will on somebody else.
All of these factors help the Confederacy.

1464
01:32:42,590 --> 01:32:46,357
The US did have an army.
The army had 15,000 men in it in

1465
01:32:46,440 --> 01:32:51,020
1860, 15,000. The Navy
had fewer than 50 vessels,

1466
01:32:52,180 --> 01:32:55,557
most of them on overseas stations.
There were exactly

1467
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:59,577
three vessels available to blockade
the Confederacy at the beginning

1468
01:32:59,660 --> 01:33:03,457
of the war. The Confederate coastline's
3,600 miles long. Probably not gonna be

1469
01:33:03,540 --> 01:33:08,400
able to shut down a lot there.
So the point is that there are

1470
01:33:09,600 --> 01:33:13,440
factors that help both sides. To me, the

1471
01:33:13,740 --> 01:33:16,377
conditions for victory are the most
important factor that favors

1472
01:33:16,460 --> 01:33:21,740
the Confederacy. We just have to make
it painful enough to the United States

1473
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:26,777
that they're gonna say, "Let them go.
We never liked South Carolina anyway. Just

1474
01:33:26,860 --> 01:33:28,592
let them go. We're not...
It's not worth it.

1475
01:33:28,676 --> 01:33:30,737
It's killing too many of our boys.
It's costing too

1476
01:33:30,820 --> 01:33:33,646
much money, and we don't have to worry
about slavery in the territories if

1477
01:33:33,729 --> 01:33:38,260
they're gone, 'cause they'll be gone. And
our territories will be free of slavery."

1478
01:33:38,780 --> 01:33:41,757
- So again, the Union
is the invading force.

1479
01:33:41,840 --> 01:33:44,237
- Yes. - Geography comes
into play, as you mentioned.

1480
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:48,677
- Immediately, yes. - Vast land.
And so in some sense, it's a miracle

1481
01:33:48,760 --> 01:33:54,290
that the war lasted as long as it did,
and then there was as much motivation-

1482
01:33:54,480 --> 01:33:55,677
- Yes, that they stuck to it

1483
01:33:55,760 --> 01:33:59,200
-... because again, victory
for the Confederacy was stop the war.

1484
01:33:59,440 --> 01:34:02,777
- Stop the war. Neither side
has an advantage in terms of its

1485
01:34:02,860 --> 01:34:06,520
leadership. The generals
all come... You often

1486
01:34:06,700 --> 01:34:10,650
used to read frequently Confederates
had better generals than the... And, but

1487
01:34:11,440 --> 01:34:14,997
this is the first war where West-- where
West Pointers are in charge. They were

1488
01:34:15,080 --> 01:34:20,606
subalterns in Mexico. The West Point is
the United States Military Academy where

1489
01:34:20,690 --> 01:34:22,985
the professional officer
corps gets its training.

1490
01:34:23,069 --> 01:34:24,717
It was established under Jefferson.

1491
01:34:24,800 --> 01:34:28,457
It's the premier engineering school
in the United States. And I mean, West

1492
01:34:28,540 --> 01:34:32,270
Point-trained engineers are very,
very prominent when they get out of the

1493
01:34:32,360 --> 01:34:36,040
army and even when they're in the army.
But by the time of the Civil

1494
01:34:36,160 --> 01:34:39,700
War, it is West Pointers
who were lieutenants and

1495
01:34:39,860 --> 01:34:43,577
captains in the war with Mexico
are now gonna be the people in

1496
01:34:43,660 --> 01:34:47,557
charge. Almost every army commander,
almost every corps commander, which

1497
01:34:47,640 --> 01:34:48,930
is the next level,

1498
01:34:49,820 --> 01:34:53,557
are West Point graduates.
They took the same classes from the same

1499
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:57,437
professors, read the same textbooks,
served under either Winfield

1500
01:34:57,520 --> 01:35:01,417
Scott or Zachary Taylor in Mexico.
They bring the same background

1501
01:35:01,500 --> 01:35:04,020
and body of doctrine
and training to the table.

1502
01:35:05,240 --> 01:35:09,020
It would've been weird if one
side or the other had an inherent

1503
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,937
advantage in leadership.
The one place where the US ends up with an

1504
01:35:13,020 --> 01:35:16,897
advantage is that over the course
of the war, it found, in my

1505
01:35:16,980 --> 01:35:20,797
view, four men who could command
armies effectively: Grant,

1506
01:35:20,880 --> 01:35:24,657
Sherman, Philip Henry Sheridan,
and George H. Thomas. The Confederacy

1507
01:35:24,740 --> 01:35:28,700
only ever found one, and that's Lee.
And they had more than one

1508
01:35:28,800 --> 01:35:31,976
army, so that's a problem. If you have
more than one army but only one really

1509
01:35:32,059 --> 01:35:34,840
good army commander,
that puts you at a disadvantage.

1510
01:35:35,400 --> 01:35:38,820
- In what ways were the two
sides balanced militarily,

1511
01:35:40,020 --> 01:35:43,970
Equal militarily? So the,
the passion, like we mentioned,

1512
01:35:44,060 --> 01:35:49,120
of the fighting force, the soldiers,
the dedication to the fighting.

1513
01:35:49,700 --> 01:35:53,517
- Both brought the same notions of how
to fight a war to the table because the

1514
01:35:53,600 --> 01:35:57,517
officer corps had been, on both
sides, had been trained in the

1515
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:01,020
same way. Neither side has
a real advantage in terms

1516
01:36:01,240 --> 01:36:04,917
of technology.
Both sides use the railroad. Both

1517
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:08,777
sides use the telegraph. The United States
could have used repeating weapons but

1518
01:36:08,860 --> 01:36:12,637
decided not to. The Confederacy
didn't have the industrial capacity to

1519
01:36:12,720 --> 01:36:16,500
produce. So the war is fought
by infantrymen, for the most part,

1520
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:20,350
carrying muzzle-loading
single-shot muskets, rifle muskets.

1521
01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:25,067
That's the weapon that inflicts
85 to 90% of the casualties-

1522
01:36:25,150 --> 01:36:28,897
... in the Civil War, and they both
have exactly the same thing. And they

1523
01:36:28,980 --> 01:36:32,550
have the same kinds of artillery
pieces. The United States

1524
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:36,480
Navy's much bigger, but it's...
And the Navy is important,

1525
01:36:37,020 --> 01:36:40,460
but armies really decide the war,
and the armies are... They're

1526
01:36:40,740 --> 01:36:42,490
organized exactly the same way.

1527
01:36:43,420 --> 01:36:47,597
They are-- They get officers
the same way. They're very similar.

1528
01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:51,597
- So what was the actual fighting like?
Like you mentioned, most of it was with

1529
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:54,080
muskets. What was the
experience of it like?

1530
01:36:54,420 --> 01:36:58,217
- It's linear formations,
shoulder-to-shoulder kinds of formations

1531
01:36:58,300 --> 01:37:01,937
that would allow you
to maintain unit integrity on a

1532
01:37:02,020 --> 01:37:05,740
battlefield, which is one reason
casualties were high. They'd line up and

1533
01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:07,000
fight each other.

1534
01:37:07,190 --> 01:37:11,057
As the war went on, they resorted
more and more. One of the developments

1535
01:37:11,140 --> 01:37:14,377
was the field entrenchments
became very common by

1536
01:37:14,460 --> 01:37:18,277
1864. And both armies, if they would
stop for the night, they would entrench.

1537
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:19,810
They'd throw up field works--

1538
01:37:20,180 --> 01:37:24,077
... which gave the defenders
a much greater power vis-a-vis

1539
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:27,657
the attacking force. They came
to decide that you needed about a

1540
01:37:27,740 --> 01:37:31,237
three-to-one advantage in numbers
to have a successful attack once field

1541
01:37:31,320 --> 01:37:36,900
entrenchments were in place.
But it is... It's an infantryman's war

1542
01:37:37,620 --> 01:37:41,852
overwhelmingly, and the infantryman's
experience on both sides.

1543
01:37:41,936 --> 01:37:46,937
The United States side was a little better
supplied. Union soldiers ate a little

1544
01:37:47,020 --> 01:37:50,857
better for the most part.
They got regular issues

1545
01:37:50,940 --> 01:37:53,454
of clothing a little more
regularly than the Confederates did.

1546
01:37:53,537 --> 01:37:54,857
Their uniforms all kind of looked

1547
01:37:54,940 --> 01:37:57,990
the same. The Confederates would
have had a more motley look.

1548
01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:02,457
But the Confederates didn't lose any
battles because they didn't have enough

1549
01:38:02,540 --> 01:38:05,831
shoes, and they didn't lose any battles
'cause they didn't have enough powder.

1550
01:38:05,914 --> 01:38:10,317
They never had a problem with that.
So it's a war where each side looks

1551
01:38:10,400 --> 01:38:14,087
like the other side in terms of what
the armies actually... If we had wandered

1552
01:38:14,170 --> 01:38:17,820
through the armies and, or watched
them in battle, they would have looked

1553
01:38:18,360 --> 01:38:19,193
the same to us.

1554
01:38:19,380 --> 01:38:23,037
- But it wasn't just about bullets.
There was also dysentery and disease.

1555
01:38:23,120 --> 01:38:26,760
- Two out of every three soldiers
who died, died of disease.

1556
01:38:27,860 --> 01:38:31,093
It depends on what unit you're in.
If you're in the Irish Brigade, ah,

1557
01:38:31,177 --> 01:38:32,010
God love them.

1558
01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:35,977
You know, just point us towards
something and let us indulge in

1559
01:38:36,060 --> 01:38:39,757
self-immolation, for God's sake.
The Irish Brigade had the

1560
01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:43,577
reverse. They had two men who died
from battle wounds for every man who

1561
01:38:43,660 --> 01:38:49,050
died from disease. But overall,
it's one man died from battle wounds

1562
01:38:49,720 --> 01:38:54,290
and two died from disease.
Overall casualties, killed, wounded,

1563
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:59,260
prisoners of war, about a million and
a half--... casualties in the Civil War.

1564
01:38:59,700 --> 01:39:03,577
- There-- You know, there's this idea that
a big part of the American spirit is the

1565
01:39:03,660 --> 01:39:08,357
Scots-Irish spirit, the fighting spirit.
You think there's some truth to that?

1566
01:39:08,440 --> 01:39:12,017
- Well, the songs are Irish songs
that both sides sing with different words,

1567
01:39:12,100 --> 01:39:16,060
and I mean, there are a lot
of Irish soldiers in the Union Army.

1568
01:39:17,020 --> 01:39:20,937
But in the entire military-age
white population of

1569
01:39:21,020 --> 01:39:24,520
the loyal states in 1860,
just about a third

1570
01:39:25,120 --> 01:39:27,570
were born somewhere other
than the United States.

1571
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:31,777
And they made up about a quarter
of all the soldiers. So they're actually

1572
01:39:31,860 --> 01:39:35,817
underrepresented in the United States
Army. Far lower percentage of foreign-born

1573
01:39:35,900 --> 01:39:38,777
soldiers in the Confederate Army,
but there they're a little bit

1574
01:39:38,860 --> 01:39:39,693
overrepresented.

1575
01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:43,917
So there are lots of foreign-born
soldiers in the army. The

1576
01:39:44,000 --> 01:39:46,397
largest group are not Irish.
They're the second largest group.

1577
01:39:46,480 --> 01:39:47,980
The largest group are Germans,

1578
01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:52,037
On the US side. The Irish are second,
and then you'd go way down the

1579
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:53,120
line for yet others.

1580
01:39:53,260 --> 01:39:57,160
- So we talked pretty thoroughly about
slavery. Can we talk about immigration?

1581
01:39:57,720 --> 01:40:02,780
What was the view
at the time of immigrants?

1582
01:40:03,740 --> 01:40:04,573
- Well,

1583
01:40:04,780 --> 01:40:08,617
I think you know the answer to that. We
need to have all that stuff done, but we

1584
01:40:08,700 --> 01:40:13,390
don't especially like the people doing it.
That's basically the... Well,

1585
01:40:14,300 --> 01:40:15,377
I mean, the-- - Oh, America

1586
01:40:15,460 --> 01:40:19,340
-...the anti-Irish, and a lot
of it is bound up with anti-Catholic

1587
01:40:19,500 --> 01:40:23,357
sentiment. The-- 'Cause the Irish are
changing the nature of the country.

1588
01:40:23,440 --> 01:40:24,790
The country's a Protestant,

1589
01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:29,597
British country, and here come all
these Irishmen. And especially in

1590
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:33,050
the '40s and '50s, the--
My Gallaghers came in the late '50s.

1591
01:40:33,820 --> 01:40:37,717
They are changing the nature, and they
take over. Look at them. They don't know

1592
01:40:37,800 --> 01:40:40,672
their place. They're-- ...
pretty soon they're taking over cities,

1593
01:40:40,755 --> 01:40:42,817
and they all cheat when
they vote. We know that.

1594
01:40:42,900 --> 01:40:44,877
You can buy an Irish vote for one drink.

1595
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:46,660
- This all sounds familiar, right?

1596
01:40:47,040 --> 01:40:50,917
- The cartoons were brutal on depicting
African American characters, but they also

1597
01:40:51,000 --> 01:40:54,577
depicted the Irish as sort of simian
characters, often with a jug of

1598
01:40:54,660 --> 01:40:58,477
whiskey in one hand. I mean, it's very...
There's profound prejudice. And

1599
01:40:58,560 --> 01:41:02,460
prejudice against the Germans,
whom they called the Dutch. That was what

1600
01:41:02,700 --> 01:41:06,660
the soldiers would call the German
regiments, Dutch regiments. And

1601
01:41:07,560 --> 01:41:09,580
yeah, there's a lot of ethnic prejudice.

1602
01:41:09,880 --> 01:41:13,617
- So to mention, you mentioned
Protestants, so both sides were

1603
01:41:13,700 --> 01:41:15,940
primarily Protestant Christians.

1604
01:41:16,120 --> 01:41:19,880
- Overwhelmingly. - At that time,
it was a very religious country.

1605
01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:22,937
- Yes, yes. - So the religious
sentiment was pretty strong.

1606
01:41:23,020 --> 01:41:26,730
- Units had chaplains,
and there were Catholic priests with

1607
01:41:26,820 --> 01:41:28,900
Catholic units. Yes, a very big presence.

1608
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:33,480
- Was Christianity used to justify-- -
Of course it was. Both sides used it, yes.

1609
01:41:34,320 --> 01:41:36,677
I don't mean to jump on your
question, but yes, they did.

1610
01:41:36,760 --> 01:41:41,420
- I mean, how was it used
to justify fighting for a nation?

1611
01:41:42,080 --> 01:41:44,161
- Yeah, there's a lot
of fighting in the Bible,

1612
01:41:44,244 --> 01:41:45,977
a lot of people killing other people in

1613
01:41:46,060 --> 01:41:48,517
the Bible-- As long as you're doing
it for the right reasons-- - Right.

1614
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:52,417
-...you can... And you could use it
different ways. I mean, you can deal with

1615
01:41:52,500 --> 01:41:56,397
setbacks by saying, "Well, God tests us.
We're being tested." What do you

1616
01:41:56,480 --> 01:41:58,912
do when God tests you?
You don't give up when God tests you.

1617
01:41:58,995 --> 01:42:00,695
You try harder when God tests you.

1618
01:42:01,220 --> 01:42:04,910
The very top leaders...
This is interesting. The top leaders

1619
01:42:05,140 --> 01:42:11,180
on the Confederate side, the most famous
ones, Lee, Stonewall Jackson, Jeb Stuart,

1620
01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:16,197
they were much more overtly
religious than people like

1621
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:21,140
Grant, Sherman, Philip Sheridan.
I mean, much, much more. Lee,

1622
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:25,639
was an Episcopalian.
Jackson was a Presbyterian.

1623
01:42:25,723 --> 01:42:27,920
But they talked-- I mean, their

1624
01:42:28,240 --> 01:42:32,137
official reports, their correspondence,
it's filled with allusions to

1625
01:42:32,220 --> 01:42:35,120
religion much more than
Grant's or Sherman's.

1626
01:42:35,540 --> 01:42:38,260
- What about African
Americans in the army?

1627
01:42:38,940 --> 01:42:42,420
- African Americans made up...
There were about 200,000 Black men

1628
01:42:42,760 --> 01:42:46,510
served in what were called United
States Colored Troops units, USCT.

1629
01:42:46,780 --> 01:42:51,817
- It was on the Union side. - On the U-
Yes. Okay, let's just dispense with the

1630
01:42:51,900 --> 01:42:55,757
hallucination that there were a lot
of Black men in the Confederate Army.

1631
01:42:55,840 --> 01:43:00,737
That is such total- Ridiculous nonsense-

1632
01:43:00,820 --> 01:43:05,490
... utterly unsupported by any evidence
that anyone would consider credible.

1633
01:43:06,650 --> 01:43:10,270
This whole notion of... I mean,
it's just, it's preposterous.

1634
01:43:10,570 --> 01:43:16,207
It's ridic- and I'm really
managing my language right here.

1635
01:43:16,290 --> 01:43:20,167
I'm not saying what I really
think it is. So, so just... I've

1636
01:43:20,250 --> 01:43:24,387
seen estimates of as high as 100,000
Black men in the Confederate Army.

1637
01:43:24,470 --> 01:43:26,627
- Not true. - Really, really, no.

1638
01:43:26,710 --> 01:43:29,527
No. Were there Black men
with the Confederate armies? Yes.

1639
01:43:29,610 --> 01:43:30,447
There are enslaved

1640
01:43:30,530 --> 01:43:34,210
Black men who are doing all kinds
of non-military things in the army

1641
01:43:34,830 --> 01:43:38,367
to free more white men to shoulder
muskets and shoot at Yankees.

1642
01:43:38,450 --> 01:43:42,287
That's what's going on in the Confederate
Army. There are a lot of Black men around

1643
01:43:42,370 --> 01:43:47,190
Union armies before they became
soldiers as well. But there are these...

1644
01:43:48,710 --> 01:43:51,113
200,000 Black men join
the military service during the war.

1645
01:43:51,196 --> 01:43:52,487
They're in the Navy and in the

1646
01:43:52,570 --> 01:43:56,417
Army. They'd always been in the Navy.
The US Navy... And they're

1647
01:43:56,500 --> 01:43:59,675
not segregated in the Navy in the,
in the way that they can be in the Army.

1648
01:43:59,758 --> 01:44:02,277
They're just in Bl- you
have integrated crews-

1649
01:44:02,360 --> 01:44:04,973
... on naval vessels, although
they're separated in some ways,

1650
01:44:05,056 --> 01:44:10,047
but there've always been Black sailors
in the Navy. The Army, no. That was

1651
01:44:10,130 --> 01:44:13,987
a big, it's a big thing to put
Black men in uniform. And

1652
01:44:14,070 --> 01:44:17,907
for a Confederate, it's bad enough if
you announce emancipation, but you, then

1653
01:44:17,990 --> 01:44:21,270
you start arming Black men.
That, to Confederates,

1654
01:44:21,530 --> 01:44:27,330
is urging a widespread
slave rebellion, basically.

1655
01:44:27,750 --> 01:44:32,370
- Black regiments on the Union side
was enraging the Confederate side.

1656
01:44:32,590 --> 01:44:36,447
- Yes. And they have white officers
overwhelmingly. There are a few

1657
01:44:36,530 --> 01:44:42,550
Black officers, but overwhelmingly
the USCT units have white officers leading

1658
01:44:42,634 --> 01:44:45,297
them. - But symbolically,
that is a really powerful thing, right?

1659
01:44:45,380 --> 01:44:49,610
- Oh, it's hard for modern
Americans to understand just how

1660
01:44:50,690 --> 01:44:54,507
jarring that would be to a Confederate,
that not only would you have enslaved

1661
01:44:54,590 --> 01:45:01,030
people no longer enslaved, but you would
have the men in uniforms carrying muskets.

1662
01:45:01,650 --> 01:45:05,176
- So you as a historian,
you've looked at every layer of this,

1663
01:45:05,259 --> 01:45:11,427
including diaries and- - What, what
was motivating? What was going through the

1664
01:45:11,510 --> 01:45:15,150
minds of African Americans who
were fighting for the Union side?

1665
01:45:15,670 --> 01:45:17,358
I think what you would
expect is going... I mean,

1666
01:45:17,442 --> 01:45:19,387
they would talk about Union
occasionally, but what that

1667
01:45:19,470 --> 01:45:23,447
means to them, it's a union without
slavery. They have the most... Of

1668
01:45:23,530 --> 01:45:26,110
all the people who can have a direct

1669
01:45:27,690 --> 01:45:31,268
impact on what's going on versus slavery,
there's nothing more direct than picking

1670
01:45:31,351 --> 01:45:35,067
up a musket and firing at the people
who are defending a slavery-based

1671
01:45:35,150 --> 01:45:39,000
society. It doesn't get... And at the
same time, you are not only doing that,

1672
01:45:39,450 --> 01:45:43,247
you are also establishing
an unimpeachable claim to citizenship. The

1673
01:45:43,330 --> 01:45:47,207
whole point of a citizen soldier
is that you do your bit for the

1674
01:45:47,290 --> 01:45:51,207
nation that's helping you,
and the nation does these things for you.

1675
01:45:51,290 --> 01:45:54,416
Well, okay, if I'm picking up and risking
my life with a musket in my hand,

1676
01:45:54,500 --> 01:45:55,227
are you gonna tell

1677
01:45:55,310 --> 01:45:58,967
me I can't vote after I do? I thought
that's the whole point of this, when I'm

1678
01:45:59,050 --> 01:46:02,970
protecting the right to vote by doing
my citizen's role as a soldier.

1679
01:46:03,390 --> 01:46:05,287
And that was a big debate in Congress.

1680
01:46:05,370 --> 01:46:09,027
That really changed the equation of that
debate as well. How are you gonna treat

1681
01:46:09,110 --> 01:46:12,640
people after they've served
in United States units?

1682
01:46:13,090 --> 01:46:16,027
Can you tell them they can't vote?
You're not gonna give the vote to them?

1683
01:46:16,110 --> 01:46:20,067
- How many people in the Black regiments,
but also, you know, folks like Frederick

1684
01:46:20,150 --> 01:46:25,230
Douglass, saw that Black Americans and
white Americans should have equal rights?

1685
01:46:25,450 --> 01:46:29,347
- Well, Douglass saw that, of course. But
even within their context, their notion

1686
01:46:29,430 --> 01:46:32,370
of equal rights is that that doesn't
mean that Black women are gonna vote,

1687
01:46:32,454 --> 01:46:33,187
just like for white

1688
01:46:33,270 --> 01:46:37,007
people, it didn't mean white women would
vote. But in terms of the context of the

1689
01:46:37,090 --> 01:46:37,923
time, yes,

1690
01:46:38,650 --> 01:46:41,779
equal rights should come out of this.
Abolishing slavery is the first step

1691
01:46:41,863 --> 01:46:46,010
of this. It's not the end game. The end
game is equal rights for everybody.

1692
01:46:46,110 --> 01:46:47,247
- Did many people see that?

1693
01:46:47,330 --> 01:46:51,207
- No. A tiny percentage of people
saw that. There's a notion

1694
01:46:51,290 --> 01:46:55,047
that's very common that somehow
the white North turned its back

1695
01:46:55,130 --> 01:46:58,273
on Black people after the war,
and it should've tried harder during

1696
01:46:58,356 --> 01:47:02,890
Reconstruction to force the white South to
convey full equal rights to Black people.

1697
01:47:03,870 --> 01:47:07,547
The assumption there is simply flawed.
Most white people in the

1698
01:47:07,630 --> 01:47:11,170
North didn't believe that... They believed

1699
01:47:11,650 --> 01:47:15,587
first save the Union, and yes, we'll need
to kill slavery as well. Those are the two

1700
01:47:15,670 --> 01:47:17,858
things on the list. Check,
check, we've done those.

1701
01:47:17,942 --> 01:47:19,587
Full equal rights for Black people is

1702
01:47:19,670 --> 01:47:22,732
not on their list. That... And they
were not willing to do the things that it

1703
01:47:22,816 --> 01:47:27,247
would've taken to do that, including
the white soldiers in uniforms who

1704
01:47:27,330 --> 01:47:30,446
wanted out of the army after
the Confederates surrendered and said,

1705
01:47:30,529 --> 01:47:31,107
"Well, now we

1706
01:47:31,190 --> 01:47:35,087
need the army to make the white South do
the right thing vis-à-vis Black people."

1707
01:47:35,170 --> 01:47:37,247
They would've said,
"What are you talking about?"

1708
01:47:37,330 --> 01:47:41,290
"I signed on to do this.
We did it. Send us home right now."

1709
01:47:41,930 --> 01:47:44,957
- I think that's one of the lessons
you learn from human history across

1710
01:47:45,040 --> 01:47:47,650
the different places where
slavery was abolished,

1711
01:47:48,550 --> 01:47:52,677
is abolishing slavery is not the end of a
journey. It's the beginning of a journey.

1712
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:53,507
- It's the beginning.

1713
01:47:53,590 --> 01:47:57,250
- And it sometimes takes,
quite often takes at least 100 years

1714
01:47:57,810 --> 01:48:01,590
to go from that to something you
would identify as equal rights.

1715
01:48:02,290 --> 01:48:05,730
And then maybe even beyond that,
there's a complicated story about

1716
01:48:06,730 --> 01:48:09,387
even outside of rights, just how
society sees the different people.

1717
01:48:09,470 --> 01:48:13,407
- There's a difference between passing...
I mean, the Great Society passed most of

1718
01:48:13,490 --> 01:48:15,889
the... I mean, you got the Civil
Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act,

1719
01:48:15,972 --> 01:48:16,707
the Fair Housing Act.

1720
01:48:16,790 --> 01:48:20,707
You got all of this legislation that does
a lot of the legal stuff, but it's what's

1721
01:48:20,790 --> 01:48:27,510
in people's heads-... that takes longer
and is a, is a more frustrating process.

1722
01:48:27,970 --> 01:48:33,890
- Remains, as has appeared
in human history, potential fuel

1723
01:48:34,030 --> 01:48:36,230
for the division to rise up again.

1724
01:48:36,330 --> 01:48:40,127
- Of course. And then people can
exploit that. It's, it's waiting to be

1725
01:48:40,210 --> 01:48:42,450
exploited, and people exploit it.

1726
01:48:43,050 --> 01:48:46,587
- This is something we do as humans.
We like to otherize certain groups.

1727
01:48:46,670 --> 01:48:47,687
- Good to have an enemy.

1728
01:48:47,770 --> 01:48:51,390
- And the Civil War for our country
is a story of this. It's...

1729
01:48:51,730 --> 01:48:55,567
So understanding the Civil War
is in part extremely important

1730
01:48:55,650 --> 01:49:02,650
for understanding the, the division,
maybe the dormant division that's there.

1731
01:49:03,370 --> 01:49:06,070
- Yes. And there, and even
before the war, there were-

1732
01:49:07,680 --> 01:49:11,360
There were notions about
the other side that sort-- for,

1733
01:49:11,500 --> 01:49:15,357
for a lot of people in the free states
looking South, they said white Southerners

1734
01:49:15,440 --> 01:49:18,977
are because of they're lazy, they're

1735
01:49:19,060 --> 01:49:22,997
violent, they, they don't wanna
talk out a problem. They'll do

1736
01:49:23,080 --> 01:49:26,757
what Preston Brooks did to Charles Sumner.
They'll beat him over the head with a

1737
01:49:26,840 --> 01:49:30,417
cane, and they're used to this because
they have slavery, and they're used to

1738
01:49:30,500 --> 01:49:34,237
brutalizing Black people. That's just
how they approach things. And the white

1739
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:36,960
South would look North and say they
don't care anything about family.

1740
01:49:37,043 --> 01:49:37,977
They're all just lusting

1741
01:49:38,060 --> 01:49:41,997
after money. All they care about
is material things. They don't have any

1742
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:45,500
sense of kinship or family.
They're... That's what Yankees

1743
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:49,400
are. It doesn't even matter whether
any of that is true, of course.

1744
01:49:49,560 --> 01:49:53,277
There was a sense perceptions are
more important than reality with human

1745
01:49:53,360 --> 01:49:56,977
beings, and the perceptions on the eve
of the Civil War were that the other

1746
01:49:57,060 --> 01:50:00,897
side was different in a lot of ways.
They also had profoundly

1747
01:50:00,980 --> 01:50:04,397
profound commonalities.
They had a common language, a common

1748
01:50:04,480 --> 01:50:08,160
religion, a common history,
these founding documents. All of

1749
01:50:08,260 --> 01:50:11,500
that would pull things,
pull people together.

1750
01:50:11,840 --> 01:50:15,737
But they found ways to see
differences and divided

1751
01:50:15,820 --> 01:50:19,370
some of the churches. I mean,
Protestant churches divided over slavery.

1752
01:50:19,540 --> 01:50:23,417
- And many of these themes
continue to today. Let's

1753
01:50:23,500 --> 01:50:25,348
talk about the different
theaters of the war,

1754
01:50:25,431 --> 01:50:27,317
the Eastern Theater
and the Western Theater.

1755
01:50:27,400 --> 01:50:30,558
You mentioned the navies, the geography.
How does geography come into play?

1756
01:50:30,641 --> 01:50:32,341
What are the different parts here?

1757
01:50:32,580 --> 01:50:36,467
- There's three main theaters of the war.
The Eastern Theater is the theater

1758
01:50:36,550 --> 01:50:39,690
that features Washington and Richmond.

1759
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:41,829
Plays out in Virginia,
a little bit of Maryland,

1760
01:50:41,913 --> 01:50:43,377
and a little bit of Pennsylvania.

1761
01:50:43,460 --> 01:50:46,688
That's-- it's where the Army of Northern
Virginia and the Army of the Potomac fight

1762
01:50:46,771 --> 01:50:49,167
for the most part.
That's the Eastern Theater.

1763
01:50:49,250 --> 01:50:54,317
- And that's the theater that maybe
is most glorified and mythologized.

1764
01:50:54,400 --> 01:50:56,457
- It's by far the most
famous of the theaters.

1765
01:50:56,540 --> 01:50:59,130
There are famous battles in the other
theaters, but that's the one,

1766
01:50:59,213 --> 01:51:02,463
and it's mainly because of the
presence of Lee and then of Grant.

1767
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:06,897
The Western Theater is a much larger one.
It goes from the Appalachian Mountains

1768
01:51:06,980 --> 01:51:10,460
to the Mississippi River,
east to west, and would go

1769
01:51:10,620 --> 01:51:17,620
from the Gulf to the Ohio River, so it's
huge and involves Tennessee and, and then

1770
01:51:18,540 --> 01:51:22,237
beyond the Mississippi River
is the descriptively named

1771
01:51:22,320 --> 01:51:27,344
Trans-Mississippi River,
part of Louisiana, Arkansas, Texas,

1772
01:51:27,427 --> 01:51:29,300
and so forth. In terms

1773
01:51:29,480 --> 01:51:33,160
of commitment of resources
and effect on the outcome of the war,

1774
01:51:33,320 --> 01:51:37,120
it's by far the least important. Some
people get very upset when I say that,

1775
01:51:37,220 --> 01:51:40,302
say that, that the Trans-- you know, it's
basically who cares about what's going

1776
01:51:40,386 --> 01:51:41,219
on out there.

1777
01:51:41,860 --> 01:51:45,580
But that's the third theater, the
Trans-Mississippi, the Western Theater,

1778
01:51:46,080 --> 01:51:47,280
and the Eastern Theater.

1779
01:51:47,500 --> 01:51:50,502
- But I think you've argued that the
Western Theater is really important

1780
01:51:50,586 --> 01:51:55,197
for the war. - Very important,
and it's where we get Grant. The

1781
01:51:55,280 --> 01:51:57,840
soldiers who won the war
for the United States

1782
01:51:58,580 --> 01:52:02,020
all come out of the Western
Theater. Grant, he brings

1783
01:52:02,240 --> 01:52:06,800
Sherman, Philip Sheridan, George Thomas.
Those are all in the Western Theater.

1784
01:52:07,640 --> 01:52:14,397
- So at the very beginning, the first
real battle, at the First Manassas in July

1785
01:52:14,480 --> 01:52:17,440
1861, I think one
interesting aspect of that,

1786
01:52:18,340 --> 01:52:21,307
as you've talked about,
is that people gathered for a picnic.

1787
01:52:21,390 --> 01:52:25,040
- They came out to watch from Washington.
They brought the carriages out,

1788
01:52:25,420 --> 01:52:28,800
set up on a little ridge that let
them look down over the battle.

1789
01:52:29,120 --> 01:52:30,870
- So that kind of gives you a sense

1790
01:52:31,600 --> 01:52:35,497
that people of the time, first of all,
didn't think this would-- this is going

1791
01:52:35,580 --> 01:52:39,220
to scale to the size that it
did or last as long as it did,

1792
01:52:39,620 --> 01:52:43,580
but also not understand
the seriousness of the situation.

1793
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:47,657
- They're clueless about what's actually
going on. To even think that you should go

1794
01:52:47,740 --> 01:52:51,667
observe a battle like that
is ridiculous, but they did.

1795
01:52:51,750 --> 01:52:55,637
And there was a strong belief,
and Lincoln was part of

1796
01:52:55,720 --> 01:52:57,640
this at the beginning, that there's
probably gonna be one battle.

1797
01:52:57,724 --> 01:52:58,297
It's not gonna last.

1798
01:52:58,380 --> 01:53:05,380
He asked for 90-day volunteers to suppress
the rebellion right after Fort Sumter.

1799
01:53:05,920 --> 01:53:09,737
William Tecumseh Sherman reacted to that
by saying that you might as well try to

1800
01:53:09,820 --> 01:53:13,597
put out a fire with a squirt gun. I mean,
it's ridiculous. They're not thinking

1801
01:53:13,680 --> 01:53:19,097
about what this war could easily be.
Take years, take hundreds of

1802
01:53:19,180 --> 01:53:21,860
thousands of men maybe, not one battle.

1803
01:53:22,180 --> 01:53:27,360
- When did it, the dark cloud,
the reality of the war, come in?

1804
01:53:28,240 --> 01:53:31,817
- Well, First Bull Run
and Star or Manassas, th- each

1805
01:53:31,900 --> 01:53:35,777
side, many battles have two names,
one that the United States soldiers used

1806
01:53:35,860 --> 01:53:40,080
and one... And usually the Confederates
would pick the nearest town,

1807
01:53:40,900 --> 01:53:44,797
and the United States often picked
terrain features, so you get Bull

1808
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,217
Run, which is a creek or stream.
That's what the Union soldiers called it.

1809
01:53:48,300 --> 01:53:51,900
Manassas is what the Confederates
called it. Antietam,

1810
01:53:52,860 --> 01:53:56,617
a creek in Maryland, is what the Union.
Sharpsburg is what Confederates called

1811
01:53:56,700 --> 01:53:58,650
it. Anyway, there are several of those.

1812
01:53:59,220 --> 01:54:02,957
That brought a little sense
of reality to people in the

1813
01:54:03,040 --> 01:54:05,317
United States especially.
They'd expected it to be over,

1814
01:54:05,400 --> 01:54:06,917
and it didn't go the way they thought

1815
01:54:07,000 --> 01:54:10,427
it would go, and so it's gonna
take more men. The summer of

1816
01:54:10,510 --> 01:54:14,037
'61 was spent, hundreds of thousands
of men went into uniform in the summer of

1817
01:54:14,120 --> 01:54:19,480
'61. The whole supply situation
became more evidently imperative,

1818
01:54:20,880 --> 01:54:22,140
but not much happened

1819
01:54:23,240 --> 01:54:26,408
in the, for the rest of the war. There's
a pretty big battle called the Battle

1820
01:54:26,491 --> 01:54:27,157
of Wilson's Creek

1821
01:54:27,240 --> 01:54:31,097
that takes place in Missouri,
but the rest of 1861 doesn't have... The

1822
01:54:31,180 --> 01:54:33,290
real fighting begins in the spring of '62,

1823
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:37,837
and what really brought
home in a way that no one had

1824
01:54:37,920 --> 01:54:41,837
imagined what could be in store was one
battle in the East and one battle in the

1825
01:54:41,920 --> 01:54:45,270
West. The one in the West is Shiloh,
which happened in early April.

1826
01:54:45,880 --> 01:54:49,657
U.S. Grant on the, on the United
States side and a General Albert

1827
01:54:49,740 --> 01:54:53,530
Sidney Johnston on the Confederate side.
But at Shiloh in two days,

1828
01:54:54,260 --> 01:54:58,000
there were upwards of 25,000
casualties, and that's more,

1829
01:54:58,460 --> 01:55:02,077
more battle casualties than U.S.
forces had suffered in every

1830
01:55:02,160 --> 01:55:05,270
war combined down to that
point happened in two days.

1831
01:55:07,360 --> 01:55:10,650
Two and a half months after
that—George B. McClellan's army

1832
01:55:11,230 --> 01:55:15,247
engaged with Lee's army in what came to be
called the Seven Days Battles at Richmond,

1833
01:55:15,330 --> 01:55:19,087
36,000 casualties.
So those two together just

1834
01:55:19,170 --> 01:55:22,790
showed that this was gonna be
on a totally different scale,

1835
01:55:23,910 --> 01:55:27,307
and it was gonna involve
sacrifices and allocation of

1836
01:55:27,390 --> 01:55:30,287
resources that no one had imagined before.

1837
01:55:30,370 --> 01:55:33,523
- Since you mentioned Missouri, you've
talked about how that was the most brutal

1838
01:55:33,606 --> 01:55:35,590
guerrilla warfare of the conflict.

1839
01:55:35,990 --> 01:55:39,100
And maybe can you speak to what
do you mean by guerrilla warfare?

1840
01:55:39,184 --> 01:55:43,490
What kind of war was that?
And then contrast with the structure,

1841
01:55:44,170 --> 01:55:48,290
the dynamics of battles
elsewhere in the war.

1842
01:55:48,410 --> 01:55:52,027
- Yes. Guerrilla war is more of what
I think most Americans can sort of

1843
01:55:52,110 --> 01:55:55,387
imagine what guerrilla war is.
It involves much, much smaller

1844
01:55:55,470 --> 01:55:59,187
numbers of actors, obviously, on

1845
01:55:59,270 --> 01:56:03,207
both sides. Guerrilla bands might have
a few dozen members. They might have

1846
01:56:03,290 --> 01:56:07,270
a few hundred at different times.
There are no real battles,

1847
01:56:07,810 --> 01:56:11,567
battles between guerrillas.
There is a lot of

1848
01:56:11,650 --> 01:56:15,535
bushwhacking, which is what
they called it, ambushing people,

1849
01:56:15,619 --> 01:56:17,050
terrorizing civilians,

1850
01:56:18,030 --> 01:56:23,627
killing livestock, killing some civilians,
killing prisoners after you've

1851
01:56:23,710 --> 01:56:27,540
captured them, hanging some people.
There are a few semi-large

1852
01:56:27,630 --> 01:56:31,537
scale ones. There's a Confederate
guerrilla named Quantrill led a raid

1853
01:56:31,620 --> 01:56:35,280
against Lawrence, Kansas,
where they burned parts of the town,

1854
01:56:35,490 --> 01:56:38,870
executed more than 150 men in the town,
and terrorized the place.

1855
01:56:39,870 --> 01:56:43,630
That is going on in the... There's a

1856
01:56:44,110 --> 01:56:47,987
relationship in many places between
elevation and guerrilla activity. The

1857
01:56:48,070 --> 01:56:51,372
more mountainous or hilly, the more
likely there'll be guerrillas operating.

1858
01:56:51,455 --> 01:56:51,947
They operate

1859
01:56:52,030 --> 01:56:57,210
in the mountains, East Tennessee, western
North Carolina, southwestern Virginia,

1860
01:56:58,290 --> 01:57:02,127
Central... There's even some activity
in parts of Texas, but Missouri and

1861
01:57:02,210 --> 01:57:06,110
Kentucky have the worst guerrilla warfare.
It's present through the whole war,

1862
01:57:06,490 --> 01:57:09,750
probably involves maybe
50,000 men out of the

1863
01:57:10,510 --> 01:57:12,710
3 million who were
in action during the war,

1864
01:57:13,470 --> 01:57:20,470
and was very nasty, no rules.
One reason that rules of war were codified

1865
01:57:21,310 --> 01:57:25,247
was because Henry Halleck, who was a
Union general in Missouri, was dealing

1866
01:57:25,330 --> 01:57:28,488
with this guerrilla activity and he said,
"We need to get some rules about who's

1867
01:57:28,571 --> 01:57:29,267
a civilian, who's

1868
01:57:29,350 --> 01:57:33,190
not a civilian. How do you deal
with this kind of situation and that

1869
01:57:33,290 --> 01:57:34,270
kind of situation?"

1870
01:57:34,670 --> 01:57:37,970
- What should we take away from
the fact that most of the fighting

1871
01:57:38,730 --> 01:57:42,120
had the rules of war behind it?
So it was more structured, it was-

1872
01:57:42,210 --> 01:57:44,060
- I think what we take away from that

1873
01:57:44,830 --> 01:57:48,147
supports my argument that
this is a war between two

1874
01:57:48,230 --> 01:57:52,087
mid-19th century nation states
that have a sense of how you fight a

1875
01:57:52,170 --> 01:57:56,027
war. You fight a war with
national armies who are led by

1876
01:57:56,110 --> 01:57:59,827
professional soldiers and who understand
that there are limits to what you

1877
01:57:59,910 --> 01:58:03,750
do in a war, and all the war,
the war's limits expand as it goes on,

1878
01:58:04,450 --> 01:58:08,098
but it doesn't reach the point where you
have indiscriminate killing of civilians

1879
01:58:08,182 --> 01:58:11,143
and so forth. You just don't... I mean,
there's an argument about whether it's

1880
01:58:11,227 --> 01:58:14,087
a total war or not. It all depends
on how you define total war.

1881
01:58:14,170 --> 01:58:17,987
- As you've mentioned, in terms
of how encompassing it was, as total a

1882
01:58:18,070 --> 01:58:23,507
war as it gets because the, the entirety
of the society was involved in it.

1883
01:58:23,590 --> 01:58:27,547
- When there's wide-scale targeting
of the economic infrastructure

1884
01:58:27,630 --> 01:58:30,317
of your opponent that can be
used to support the war effort,

1885
01:58:30,400 --> 01:58:31,327
which is what you get

1886
01:58:31,410 --> 01:58:34,867
increasingly as the war goes on and
officially when Grant is in charge as

1887
01:58:34,950 --> 01:58:41,030
general-in-chief, then certainly that's
a total... If you're the farmer who

1888
01:58:41,690 --> 01:58:45,507
experiences an army coming
by and they, they take

1889
01:58:45,590 --> 01:58:49,527
all, take or kill all your livestock
and destroy your crops, and that's,

1890
01:58:49,610 --> 01:58:52,930
that's pretty much like a total war,
even if they don't kill you.

1891
01:58:53,230 --> 01:58:55,150
- So the war escalates.

1892
01:58:55,690 --> 01:58:59,610
- Yes, the war does escalate.
'62, it takes a quantum leap.

1893
01:58:59,750 --> 01:59:02,260
In the spring and early summer of 1862,

1894
01:59:03,230 --> 01:59:06,930
the signals are clear this is something
that we had not counted on before.

1895
01:59:07,250 --> 01:59:09,217
And the armies are much,
they're gonna be much bigger.

1896
01:59:09,301 --> 01:59:10,587
The Army of the Potomac's more than

1897
01:59:10,670 --> 01:59:13,631
100,000 men. There's never been
an army like that in US history,

1898
01:59:13,714 --> 01:59:14,614
nothing like that.

1899
01:59:15,450 --> 01:59:20,830
- What do we understand from
the diaries of soldiers coming,

1900
01:59:21,750 --> 01:59:25,547
For the first time face to face
with this scale of war? We're talking

1901
01:59:25,630 --> 01:59:29,067
about a year. They've been volunteering
for a year, like you mentioned,

1902
01:59:29,150 --> 01:59:32,200
you know, in the summer,
in the spring and the summer of '62.

1903
01:59:32,490 --> 01:59:36,470
- There's so many themes in soldier
letters, and it's an incredible gift

1904
01:59:37,330 --> 01:59:41,227
to people such as myself who
study this, is that almost, that

1905
01:59:41,310 --> 01:59:44,650
a very large majority of the men
on both sides were literate.

1906
01:59:45,290 --> 01:59:49,410
And so we have this mass of testimony.
And they, and they, they sent

1907
01:59:50,610 --> 01:59:54,470
millions of letters from the armies
home and, and back to the armies, the,

1908
01:59:54,710 --> 01:59:58,220
the on both sides. So we have this,

1909
01:59:58,590 --> 02:00:02,387
this trove of first-hand
evidence and diaries too, many,

1910
02:00:02,470 --> 02:00:06,400
many, many, many, many diaries.
But so you can see in real

1911
02:00:06,550 --> 02:00:10,127
time how attitudes are changing,
hardening. You can see the

1912
02:00:10,210 --> 02:00:13,923
hardening process in soldiers who they
don't have any idea what being a soldier

1913
02:00:14,006 --> 02:00:16,998
is, then they do, and they don't like
lots of things about it. They don't...

1914
02:00:17,081 --> 02:00:18,431
They talk a lot about food,

1915
02:00:18,650 --> 02:00:21,467
talk a lot about clothing,
talk a lot about officers they don't

1916
02:00:21,550 --> 02:00:25,267
like. They don't talk,
what one thing, it's really

1917
02:00:25,350 --> 02:00:29,027
fascinating, the thing they
don't try to do is explain to

1918
02:00:29,110 --> 02:00:32,967
people behind the lines exactly what
it's like to be in a battle because they

1919
02:00:33,050 --> 02:00:36,581
understand the people back home won't
understand what they're talking about.

1920
02:00:36,665 --> 02:00:40,887
And so they'll say things like, "It was
awful," and, "Words just can't convey what

1921
02:00:40,970 --> 02:00:44,387
it was," and then maybe tell
more about their individual

1922
02:00:44,470 --> 02:00:46,870
experience. But there's a real sense

1923
02:00:47,910 --> 02:00:51,667
that what a veteran knows about
being in the military and what the

1924
02:00:51,750 --> 02:00:53,963
people back home will understand
are two different things,

1925
02:00:54,046 --> 02:00:55,946
and you just can't explain it to them.

1926
02:00:56,220 --> 02:01:00,410
- And so that takes us into
the fall of the Battle of Antietam.

1927
02:01:01,230 --> 02:01:05,350
Can you walk me through what happened
at the battle and why it mattered?

1928
02:01:05,850 --> 02:01:09,199
- George B. McClellan, whom I've
already referred to dismissively a couple

1929
02:01:09,283 --> 02:01:10,116
of times-

1930
02:01:11,250 --> 02:01:12,107
He was-

1931
02:01:12,190 --> 02:01:16,107
... he was in charge of the Army of the
Potomac by this point. He'd been general

1932
02:01:16,190 --> 02:01:19,450
in chief for a brief time
and commanding the Army of the Potomac.

1933
02:01:20,210 --> 02:01:23,987
And he finally approached Richmond.
He got within, literally within

1934
02:01:24,070 --> 02:01:27,870
five miles of Richmond. He was opposing
an officer named Joseph E. Johnston,

1935
02:01:28,790 --> 02:01:31,619
who just, his first thought every
day was, "What a great day to retreat.

1936
02:01:31,702 --> 02:01:34,147
Where could I go? I could go
that way, or I could go that way."

1937
02:01:34,230 --> 02:01:35,947
He and McClellan were
a match made in heaven.

1938
02:01:36,030 --> 02:01:39,787
McClellan didn't wanna go anywhere,
and Johnston only wanted to

1939
02:01:39,870 --> 02:01:42,430
retreat. Anyway,
they finally ended up at Richmond.

1940
02:01:44,590 --> 02:01:48,447
Johnston got wounded,
got hit by a shell fragment outside

1941
02:01:48,530 --> 02:01:52,230
Richmond in the Battle of Seven Pines,
and he's replaced by Robert E. Lee.

1942
02:01:52,460 --> 02:01:56,327
And McClellan, in his usual perceptive
way, observed that this was great because

1943
02:01:56,410 --> 02:02:00,087
he knew that Lee was too timid to ever be
an effective presence on the battlefield.

1944
02:02:00,170 --> 02:02:02,207
So he read him just exactly the way-

1945
02:02:02,290 --> 02:02:06,950
... that McClellan would.
He ends up fighting Lee, and he,

1946
02:02:07,790 --> 02:02:10,730
in the Seven Days' Battles,
McClellan is pushed away from Richmond.

1947
02:02:10,813 --> 02:02:15,590
He shouldn't have been, but he was.
That was considered a great victory.

1948
02:02:15,710 --> 02:02:19,647
Lee's reputation goes
up after that. Then Lee

1949
02:02:19,730 --> 02:02:23,067
follows that up with the campaign
of Second Bull Run, which

1950
02:02:23,150 --> 02:02:27,007
reorients the war
from Richmond to Manassas,

1951
02:02:27,090 --> 02:02:30,987
the old First Manassas battlefield in
northern Virginia. Stonewall Jackson plays

1952
02:02:31,070 --> 02:02:34,927
a key role in it. He wins the Battle
of Second Bull Run in late August

1953
02:02:35,010 --> 02:02:38,770
1862, and then invades the loyal

1954
02:02:38,870 --> 02:02:42,370
states for the first time. He crosses
into Maryland in early September

1955
02:02:43,070 --> 02:02:46,730
with an army that is broken
down in terms of supply.

1956
02:02:47,510 --> 02:02:51,490
He has tremendous straggling problems
and desertion problems, Lee did,

1957
02:02:51,730 --> 02:02:55,347
in... He moved across the army
with about 50,000 men. When they

1958
02:02:55,430 --> 02:02:59,227
finally came to battle at Antietam,
which is in western

1959
02:02:59,310 --> 02:03:03,107
Maryland, he only had about 35,000
soldiers on the field. McClellan had

1960
02:03:03,190 --> 02:03:05,070
about 80,000 on the other side.

1961
02:03:05,870 --> 02:03:09,787
And McClellan had captured a copy
of Lee's entire orders for the

1962
02:03:09,870 --> 02:03:13,747
whole campaign, Special Orders
Number 191. They had gone

1963
02:03:13,830 --> 02:03:18,627
through an old Confederate camp-...
and found a copy of Lee's orders.

1964
02:03:18,710 --> 02:03:22,610
And still McClellan didn't move quickly.
I won't bash McClellan. They fight.

1965
02:03:22,990 --> 02:03:26,310
The bloodiest single day in US
history is Antietam, the battle of

1966
02:03:26,590 --> 02:03:30,407
23,000 casualties in one
day there. Very close

1967
02:03:30,490 --> 02:03:33,580
thing. Lee hangs on by just
the narrowest margin,

1968
02:03:34,830 --> 02:03:37,850
sits on the battlefield for another
whole day, which he shouldn't have done.

1969
02:03:37,933 --> 02:03:38,687
He was being way too

1970
02:03:38,770 --> 02:03:42,070
bold there, and then retreated,
got back across the Potomac River.

1971
02:03:42,230 --> 02:03:44,180
Confederates looked at this whole thing

1972
02:03:44,830 --> 02:03:48,667
as a drama in three acts:
save Richmond, reorient the

1973
02:03:48,750 --> 02:03:52,640
war to northern Virginia, cross into
the United States, and they saw it as

1974
02:03:52,770 --> 02:03:54,920
a success. Richmond's
no longer threatened.

1975
02:03:55,330 --> 02:04:00,376
Lee's reputation has gone way up.
McClellan has frustrated Lincoln

1976
02:04:00,460 --> 02:04:01,470
immeasurably,

1977
02:04:02,290 --> 02:04:06,247
and as a result, Lincoln removes
McClellan from command. He waits

1978
02:04:06,330 --> 02:04:09,787
till the day after the elections in
November 'cause McClellan's popular among

1979
02:04:09,870 --> 02:04:13,510
Democrats, and Lincoln is an adept
politician. He fires him the day

1980
02:04:13,610 --> 02:04:17,750
after the elections and replaces him
with a guy named Ambrose Burnside.

1981
02:04:18,550 --> 02:04:21,878
- So what can you say about what makes
a great general and what makes a poor

1982
02:04:21,961 --> 02:04:27,030
general in all of this? - Well,
McClellan is a very smart guy,

1983
02:04:27,130 --> 02:04:30,907
and he was on Winfield
Scott's staff in Mexico, as

1984
02:04:30,990 --> 02:04:34,947
was Lee, which is a sign that
you're a pretty bright officer.

1985
02:04:35,030 --> 02:04:38,687
He built the Army of the Potomac. He did
a brilliant job building the Army of the

1986
02:04:38,770 --> 02:04:42,647
Potomac. The troops loved him.
There was never a bond with any other

1987
02:04:42,730 --> 02:04:45,767
commander the way they had with
McClellan. But what he couldn't

1988
02:04:45,850 --> 02:04:49,807
do when the moment came.
When the moment came, he

1989
02:04:49,890 --> 02:04:54,910
couldn't risk things. He was risk-averse.
He had a chance to capture Richmond

1990
02:04:55,910 --> 02:04:59,747
against Lee. He should have,
and he didn't. He withdrew. He had a

1991
02:04:59,830 --> 02:05:03,547
chance... You almost never had a chance
to destroy another army in the Civil War.

1992
02:05:03,630 --> 02:05:07,427
He had a chance to destroy Lee's
army at Antietam, and he didn't. He

1993
02:05:07,510 --> 02:05:11,407
pulled back. He didn't even
use 20,000 of his men. They

1994
02:05:11,490 --> 02:05:15,207
never fired their muskets at Antietam.
If you're in Lee's army, you're gonna

1995
02:05:15,290 --> 02:05:19,127
fire your musket. If you're in McClellan's
army, maybe, maybe not. He didn't

1996
02:05:19,210 --> 02:05:23,180
at Antietam. He let Lee get away.
It frustrated Lincoln immensely,

1997
02:05:23,350 --> 02:05:27,210
and Lincoln finally fired him
because of that. It was a flaw. He

1998
02:05:27,310 --> 02:05:31,010
lacked what they would've called
in the mid-19th century the moral courage

1999
02:05:31,210 --> 02:05:38,130
to risk everything. Grant had it.
Lee had it. McClellan didn't have it.

2000
02:05:38,330 --> 02:05:42,180
- One of the components of a great
general is the willingness to risk it all,

2001
02:05:42,470 --> 02:05:46,740
Obviously with, with good advice,
with intelligence, but--

2002
02:05:47,410 --> 02:05:49,110
- Which he had. -... risk failure.

2003
02:05:49,350 --> 02:05:53,287
- The whole war changed in this arc
between the Seven Days and Antietam,

2004
02:05:53,370 --> 02:05:57,227
and it changed in this way.
McClellan's defeat at

2005
02:05:57,310 --> 02:06:01,117
the Seven Days.
This is in late June and the, and

2006
02:06:01,200 --> 02:06:05,090
early July '62, convinced both Congress

2007
02:06:05,650 --> 02:06:09,367
and Lincoln that slavery was gonna
have to be put on the table. The

2008
02:06:09,450 --> 02:06:14,167
war's gonna be moral and con-- McClellan
could've won the war with slavery intact.

2009
02:06:14,250 --> 02:06:18,110
He didn't, so Congress passed
the Second Confiscation Act in late

2010
02:06:18,230 --> 02:06:21,130
July, which I mentioned earlier,
which strikes at slavery.

2011
02:06:22,050 --> 02:06:26,027
And then Lincoln decided,
he told his cabinet toward the end

2012
02:06:26,110 --> 02:06:29,260
of July that he was gonna issue
a proclamation of emancipation,

2013
02:06:29,990 --> 02:06:33,242
and he was persuaded that he couldn't
just do it then in the wake of a defeat.

2014
02:06:33,325 --> 02:06:37,807
He should wait until he had a victory.
He got another defeat at Second Bull Run.

2015
02:06:37,890 --> 02:06:41,747
He finally got a victory at Antietam
because Lee retreated, and then that's

2016
02:06:41,830 --> 02:06:45,247
when he announced the preliminary
proclamation. The key battle here isn't

2017
02:06:45,330 --> 02:06:49,047
Antietam. The key battle is the Seven
Days and McClellan's defeat that

2018
02:06:49,130 --> 02:06:52,987
persuades Lincoln to do this.
Antietam gives him the occasion to do

2019
02:06:53,070 --> 02:06:55,370
it, and he issued his
preliminary proclamation

2020
02:06:56,210 --> 02:06:59,630
five days after the battle
on September 22nd, 1862.

2021
02:06:59,930 --> 02:07:03,827
- Can you elaborate why it became
obvious that the slavery has to be

2022
02:07:03,910 --> 02:07:07,657
on the table as, as the motivation,
as the driving motivation-

2023
02:07:07,740 --> 02:07:08,447
... for the war at that time?

2024
02:07:08,530 --> 02:07:12,147
- Because people believed the...
And they were right. The war was

2025
02:07:12,230 --> 02:07:15,987
almost over at the end
of May 1862. It had been a

2026
02:07:16,070 --> 02:07:19,870
catastrophe for the Confederacy
in the Western Theater.

2027
02:07:20,600 --> 02:07:24,057
They had lost New Orleans. New Orleans
was surrender- the biggest city in the

2028
02:07:24,140 --> 02:07:28,017
Confederacy by far, 160,000 people,
four times bigger than the

2029
02:07:28,100 --> 02:07:31,817
next biggest con- the most
important port. The key to the

2030
02:07:31,900 --> 02:07:35,577
Mississippi River Valley as a,
as an economic artery. If you don't

2031
02:07:35,660 --> 02:07:39,517
control New Orleans,
the Mississippi isn't an economic river

2032
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:41,550
for you. New Orleans was gone in April.

2033
02:07:42,260 --> 02:07:45,820
Nashville was gone, the key
city and capital of Tennessee.

2034
02:07:45,980 --> 02:07:49,837
Memphis was gone in June.
The whole state of Tennessee, except

2035
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:53,618
the mountainous East Tennessee, was
basically not a Confederate state anymore

2036
02:07:53,702 --> 02:07:55,510
by May 1862.

2037
02:07:56,420 --> 02:08:02,440
There was a Union army of 100,000
in northern Mississippi by the end of May.

2038
02:08:03,560 --> 02:08:09,077
Catastrophic. And George B.
McClellan's army was in five miles of

2039
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:10,900
the national capital in Richmond.

2040
02:08:11,740 --> 02:08:15,637
I don't think the Confederacy could
have absorbed the loss of Richmond at

2041
02:08:15,720 --> 02:08:19,440
that point. I think it would've
been over, and emancipation

2042
02:08:20,440 --> 02:08:24,780
was not on the table yet in an official
way. The fact that Richmond didn't fall

2043
02:08:25,700 --> 02:08:29,477
convinced people in the North that
the war was gonna have to last a lot

2044
02:08:29,560 --> 02:08:31,913
longer. The Confederates
were gonna be harder to beat,

2045
02:08:31,997 --> 02:08:33,217
convinced Europe of the same

2046
02:08:33,300 --> 02:08:36,517
thing. By Europe, I mean
France and England. That's what

2047
02:08:36,600 --> 02:08:40,367
mattered. And so they decided
that they were gonna have to take more

2048
02:08:40,450 --> 02:08:44,337
extreme measures, and then the key,
more extreme measure is strike at

2049
02:08:44,420 --> 02:08:47,160
slavery. Strike at it
as a war measure directly.

2050
02:08:47,840 --> 02:08:51,637
- And as a war measure, it what?
Attacks at the economic

2051
02:08:51,720 --> 02:08:53,800
infrastructure of the Confederacy.

2052
02:08:54,120 --> 02:08:57,167
- It attacks the, the economic
infrastructure that enables

2053
02:08:57,250 --> 02:09:01,140
the Confederacy to maintain
the largest possible army in the war.

2054
02:09:01,230 --> 02:09:05,967
- So this is not about the, the ethics,
the morality of slavery. It's the-

2055
02:09:06,050 --> 02:09:09,399
- It is for the abolitionists who see it,
and Frederick Douglass realized that

2056
02:09:09,482 --> 02:09:13,217
this is good. The abolitionists
realized early on, even in

2057
02:09:13,300 --> 02:09:17,200
1861, some of them,
Charles Sumner, for example, saw

2058
02:09:17,480 --> 02:09:21,357
the Union defeat at First Bull Run.
"Yes, it's bad that we

2059
02:09:21,440 --> 02:09:25,337
lost, but the longer the war
goes, the more likely that

2060
02:09:25,420 --> 02:09:28,303
we can get slavery on the table,
get emancipation on the table."

2061
02:09:28,386 --> 02:09:30,536
Frederick Douglass
believed the same thing.

2062
02:09:31,220 --> 02:09:34,937
A longer war made that more likely,
and McClellan handed them

2063
02:09:35,020 --> 02:09:40,497
that gift by not being as aggressive
as he should've been at Richmond in 1862.

2064
02:09:40,580 --> 02:09:45,770
- But we should say, and correct me
if I'm wrong, that only a tiny minority

2065
02:09:46,380 --> 02:09:49,417
of Americans were
abolitionists at that time.

2066
02:09:49,500 --> 02:09:52,577
- We'll never know exactly. I would
say if you... I think if you guessed

2067
02:09:52,660 --> 02:09:56,597
3% were- I mean,
really abolitionists, destroy

2068
02:09:56,680 --> 02:09:59,830
it now, destroy it completely,
no compensation for rebel owners

2069
02:10:00,540 --> 02:10:03,657
or any owners, kill it in Kentucky,
kill it in Missouri, kill it in

2070
02:10:03,740 --> 02:10:08,517
Maryland. Yes, I think 3%
would be about the ballpark.

2071
02:10:08,600 --> 02:10:12,437
- So of course, now we
venerate those folks, and

2072
02:10:12,520 --> 02:10:16,377
we mythologize them,
and so they become bigger in our

2073
02:10:16,460 --> 02:10:21,080
minds. But we should remember
that they're a tiny percentage.

2074
02:10:21,220 --> 02:10:25,117
- They're a tiny percentage, and there are
other factors that are pushing forward the

2075
02:10:25,200 --> 02:10:27,617
process that leads to the 13th Amendment.

2076
02:10:27,700 --> 02:10:31,607
It's not just people who hate slavery so
much that they'll do anything to kill it.

2077
02:10:31,690 --> 02:10:34,790
The... in fact, most of them aren't.
That's not what they are.

2078
02:10:35,200 --> 02:10:38,760
We wish they were, but they're not.
And Lincoln is in a tough position.

2079
02:10:39,280 --> 02:10:42,940
Lincoln hates slavery personally,
but he's president trying to win a war,

2080
02:10:43,420 --> 02:10:45,588
and he can't win the war
with just Republicans.

2081
02:10:45,671 --> 02:10:47,257
He has to try to keep Democrats on

2082
02:10:47,340 --> 02:10:52,360
board, so he has to... I mean,
and the Constitution protects slavery.

2083
02:10:52,460 --> 02:10:56,177
In Kentucky and Missouri and Maryland
and Delaware. They're still in the

2084
02:10:56,260 --> 02:11:00,137
nation. The Constitution still applies.
Congress, by the time, by

2085
02:11:00,220 --> 02:11:03,697
the end of June, had already gotten rid
of slavery in the only two places where it

2086
02:11:03,780 --> 02:11:07,830
could. And that is in the federal
territories and the District of Columbia.

2087
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:11,992
No compensation in the territories,
but there were hardly any enslaved people

2088
02:11:12,075 --> 02:11:16,080
there, and there was some compensation
in the District of Columbia.

2089
02:11:17,100 --> 02:11:22,930
- You said that Lincoln hates slavery.
Can we just take that tangent and

2090
02:11:24,160 --> 02:11:27,800
from a perspective of some,
there's a hypocrisy there

2091
02:11:28,720 --> 02:11:32,317
in pushing for a policy of colonization.

2092
02:11:32,400 --> 02:11:35,617
- Colonization. Yes,
colonization. In the summer of

2093
02:11:35,700 --> 02:11:39,460
1862, Lincoln met with a group
of Black leaders and tried to convince

2094
02:11:39,600 --> 02:11:43,257
them to support colonization,
which colonization

2095
02:11:43,340 --> 02:11:47,217
meant if you freed enslaved people,
then they would go somewhere else. They'd

2096
02:11:47,300 --> 02:11:52,390
go out of the United States.
It's why Liberia exists. And Lincoln,

2097
02:11:52,740 --> 02:11:56,170
that is probably the least
attractive element of his total

2098
02:11:56,340 --> 02:12:00,037
thinking on... He genuinely didn't
believe that white people would

2099
02:12:00,120 --> 02:12:03,192
ever accept Black people as equals.
He told the leaders that when he met

2100
02:12:03,275 --> 02:12:03,997
with them, and he

2101
02:12:04,080 --> 02:12:08,017
said, "You wouldn't want it that way. I
wouldn't either. It's the way it is. It's

2102
02:12:08,100 --> 02:12:12,440
a reality." - Do we know he believed that,
or is this a pragmatic politician

2103
02:12:13,020 --> 02:12:14,557
understanding the lay of the land?

2104
02:12:14,640 --> 02:12:18,297
- I think for someone who
was born in Kentucky and reared in

2105
02:12:18,380 --> 02:12:21,757
Southern Indiana and Southern
Illinois, he was never around

2106
02:12:21,840 --> 02:12:25,780
anything but a level of intensity
on race that he probably

2107
02:12:26,260 --> 02:12:29,997
didn't ever see, wasn't ever
around white people who he could see

2108
02:12:30,080 --> 02:12:34,220
accepting Black people as fully equal.
That's-... I do believe that.

2109
02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:38,937
- And still, it is a country
that where the words

2110
02:12:39,020 --> 02:12:40,887
"All men are created
equal" is on the page.

2111
02:12:40,970 --> 02:12:44,957
- They're right there on the page,
waiting for that to be made good

2112
02:12:45,040 --> 02:12:49,617
on. Yes, that's correct. Well, it's true.

2113
02:12:49,700 --> 02:12:53,740
And Lincoln-- I mean,
Lincoln also was capable of growth.

2114
02:12:54,200 --> 02:13:00,720
- Well, he seemed to have evolved
quite a lot in the years of the war.

2115
02:13:01,030 --> 02:13:06,120
- He did. No, he did. He did.
- And it's very, very possible were he not

2116
02:13:06,600 --> 02:13:09,800
assassinated, he would've arrived
at a very different worldview.

2117
02:13:10,140 --> 02:13:13,860
- We'll never know,
but we do know that he was a lot

2118
02:13:13,960 --> 02:13:17,257
smarter and a lot more adaptable
and a lot more politically

2119
02:13:17,340 --> 02:13:20,650
adept than Andrew Johnson,
and so it certainly would've looked

2120
02:13:20,920 --> 02:13:23,757
different. Well, it's true.
- No, I just- - Yes, it is true.

2121
02:13:23,840 --> 02:13:26,867
-... I think I vaguely remember
you saying somewhere that Andrew

2122
02:13:26,950 --> 02:13:32,467
Johnson is the second worst
president in America's history.

2123
02:13:32,550 --> 02:13:36,440
- Yeah, he's right. He has...
the glory of being above James Buchanan.

2124
02:13:36,610 --> 02:13:37,827
I said that a few years ago, yes.

2125
02:13:37,910 --> 02:13:40,170
- I think you said
something about Buchanan.

2126
02:13:41,210 --> 02:13:44,477
is... There's like a basement, there's
like a basement below basement. I think-

2127
02:13:44,560 --> 02:13:45,827
- Sub-basement. He's in the sub-basement.

2128
02:13:45,910 --> 02:13:50,557
-... He's in the sub-basement. And this I
put that in the category of the slime, uh-

2129
02:13:50,640 --> 02:13:51,267
... poetic commentary. Uh-

2130
02:13:51,350 --> 02:13:54,608
- He's in a little corner of the
sub-basement all by himself with one

2131
02:13:54,691 --> 02:13:55,524
candle.

2132
02:13:55,630 --> 02:13:59,487
- So can we take that tiny tangent
of why they were terrible pr- uh, tangent

2133
02:13:59,570 --> 02:14:02,344
on a tangent, why was Andrew
Johnson such a terrible president,

2134
02:14:02,428 --> 02:14:06,570
and Buchanan as well? - I think he
was a terrible president because he was,

2135
02:14:07,970 --> 02:14:11,690
he was extremely prejudiced.
He had all kinds of grievances

2136
02:14:11,870 --> 02:14:15,667
stacked up. He had the poor white
man's grievance from being in a

2137
02:14:15,750 --> 02:14:18,828
slavehold. He hates... His slaveholders
were part of his enemies when he

2138
02:14:18,911 --> 02:14:21,927
was growing up, then he
embraced them after the war.

2139
02:14:22,010 --> 02:14:29,010
He was... He couldn't get beyond his most
profound lifelong prejudices. He was not

2140
02:14:30,070 --> 02:14:33,947
malleable in any way. He thought what
he thought, and that's what he was always

2141
02:14:34,030 --> 02:14:37,630
gonna think. And he just was not
the right be- person to be in place.

2142
02:14:38,010 --> 02:14:41,460
- Well, why is Buchanan the worst
president-... in America's history?

2143
02:14:41,790 --> 02:14:44,363
- If you had a dictionary
that had the word hack in it,

2144
02:14:44,446 --> 02:14:49,840
it should have a picture of James Buchanan
by it. He was an absolute political hack-

2145
02:14:50,150 --> 02:14:54,047
... who made his way up by staying alive
and doing everything that you should

2146
02:14:54,130 --> 02:14:57,247
do as a party hack as you went along.
And then, oh, I ended up as

2147
02:14:57,330 --> 02:15:01,267
president in 1856 because there's a...
The person I'm running

2148
02:15:01,350 --> 02:15:05,167
against is from a party, this is the first
time they're running a candidate. His

2149
02:15:05,250 --> 02:15:09,127
way of dealing with the secession crisis
was basically hiding under his desk and

2150
02:15:09,210 --> 02:15:12,666
hoping the roof didn't fall in before
he got out of Washington. He's just,

2151
02:15:12,750 --> 02:15:13,700
he's just horrible.

2152
02:15:14,690 --> 02:15:18,012
- I think from that I get a sense
that what you admire in a leader and

2153
02:15:18,095 --> 02:15:21,090
a president is a,
is a kind of backbone, uh-

2154
02:15:21,390 --> 02:15:25,147
... to be able to, again,
take risks and to stand behind

2155
02:15:25,230 --> 02:15:29,030
political savvy, yes, but also
a backbone behind that savvy.

2156
02:15:29,190 --> 02:15:32,960
- Yes, and to actually change
a position if you're persuaded-

2157
02:15:33,370 --> 02:15:37,147
... by both events and good counsel
that you had the wrong position before. Go

2158
02:15:37,230 --> 02:15:38,007
ahead and do that.

2159
02:15:38,090 --> 02:15:43,610
- So some kind of balance of,
of a backbone behind principles and

2160
02:15:43,790 --> 02:15:48,560
malleability based on the information,
knowledge, and wisdom that you gain-

2161
02:15:48,850 --> 02:15:51,887
... versus for convenience or out of fear.

2162
02:15:51,970 --> 02:15:55,071
- There's an apocryphal story about
Lincoln that I think gets at his

2163
02:15:55,154 --> 02:15:57,496
willingness to row against
the tide if he needed to. He's...

2164
02:15:57,579 --> 02:15:59,727
They're discussing something
in a cabinet meeting, and he

2165
02:15:59,810 --> 02:16:01,914
says, "Well, let's, let's vote.
Let me get your sense."

2166
02:16:01,997 --> 02:16:06,850
And they went around the table, and every
cabinet member voted no. And, and

2167
02:16:07,770 --> 02:16:10,920
Lincoln said, "Well,
that's six nos and one yes. Mine,

2168
02:16:11,710 --> 02:16:15,570
the ayes have it." I mean, he's...
So he listened to them, and in that

2169
02:16:15,670 --> 02:16:19,567
case, he's willing to do something
that's unpopular and knows that he's

2170
02:16:19,650 --> 02:16:21,931
gonna get... But he'll do
it because... And that's,

2171
02:16:22,014 --> 02:16:24,114
that's a quality not everybody has either.

2172
02:16:24,430 --> 02:16:27,827
- Who's the greatest president in the
history of the United- - In my view?

2173
02:16:27,910 --> 02:16:30,439
In my view, it's neck and neck
with Washington and Lincoln.

2174
02:16:30,522 --> 02:16:31,847
Without Washington, there's no

2175
02:16:31,930 --> 02:16:35,570
United States, so it's sort
of hard to go against him.

2176
02:16:36,050 --> 02:16:38,950
He set all kinds of precedents
that were really important.

2177
02:16:39,330 --> 02:16:40,647
- Just giving away power.

2178
02:16:40,730 --> 02:16:44,547
- Twice. He did it twice. The Europeans
couldn't wrap their minds around that. He

2179
02:16:44,630 --> 02:16:48,440
gave it away after the revolution.
In other words, his message

2180
02:16:48,530 --> 02:16:52,187
is, "I'm not Caesar.
I'm not Cromwell. I'm not

2181
02:16:52,270 --> 02:16:55,820
Napoleon." There hadn't been a Napoleon
yet, but anyway, he wasn't one.

2182
02:16:56,170 --> 02:16:58,600
"I had power, and I gave it back."
And then he stepped down.

2183
02:16:58,683 --> 02:16:59,907
He would've been president for

2184
02:16:59,990 --> 02:17:04,970
life if he wanted to be. He did two terms.
That's enough. Let somebody else do it.

2185
02:17:07,130 --> 02:17:14,130
Who does that? But he embodies the notion
of what... This is what a citizen soldier

2186
02:17:14,690 --> 02:17:18,547
does. He comes forward
at a time of crisis, he does

2187
02:17:18,630 --> 02:17:22,610
his duty, and when the crisis
is over, he is Cincinnatus.

2188
02:17:22,990 --> 02:17:26,687
He goes back to his farm when
this is over with, because the

2189
02:17:26,770 --> 02:17:30,430
point is, he'd done what republic...
small R republican

2190
02:17:30,550 --> 02:17:33,420
virtue dictated, and then he went back.

2191
02:17:34,630 --> 02:17:38,590
And, and that image
was invoked over and over and

2192
02:17:38,710 --> 02:17:42,327
over again. The small R repub- This has
nothing to do with the Republican Party.

2193
02:17:42,410 --> 02:17:46,327
Small R republican virtue
of disinterested service

2194
02:17:46,410 --> 02:17:49,750
to your republic. It's...
And Washington embodied that.

2195
02:17:50,530 --> 02:17:54,447
He's crucial. What's always been
fascinating to me, Lex, is you have

2196
02:17:54,530 --> 02:17:57,787
this guy, he's surrounded
by this freakishly

2197
02:17:57,870 --> 02:18:01,187
talented group of people
in this little nation. You have

2198
02:18:01,270 --> 02:18:05,127
Madison and Hamilton and Jefferson
and Franklin, all these people

2199
02:18:05,210 --> 02:18:08,507
who are probably smarter than Washington.
They've certainly read more Greek and

2200
02:18:08,590 --> 02:18:14,320
Latin than Washington, and yet
nobody's concerned about who the man is.

2201
02:18:14,430 --> 02:18:17,990
It's Washington.
He's the guy. We're smarter.

2202
02:18:18,750 --> 02:18:22,070
It's like what Sherman
said about Grant one time.

2203
02:18:23,010 --> 02:18:25,371
Sherman's smarter than Grant,
probably. Sherman said,

2204
02:18:25,454 --> 02:18:26,907
"I know more about strategy than

2205
02:18:26,990 --> 02:18:30,747
Grant. I know more about tactics. I
know more about supply. I know more about

2206
02:18:30,830 --> 02:18:34,787
everything than U.S. Grant does.
But where he beats me and where

2207
02:18:34,870 --> 02:18:38,800
he beats the world is he don't
give a damn what the enemy is doing

2208
02:18:38,890 --> 02:18:43,810
out of his sight, and that scares me like
hell." In other words, Grant could just

2209
02:18:45,190 --> 02:18:49,047
let the background noise go
away, focus on his thing, and

2210
02:18:49,130 --> 02:18:52,550
do what he was gonna do,
and Sherman couldn't do that. Grant

2211
02:18:52,650 --> 02:18:56,330
liberated Sherman to become a great
general because he had Grant over him

2212
02:18:56,450 --> 02:18:58,070
taking responsibility.

2213
02:18:58,290 --> 02:19:03,907
It's really fascinating. And Washington,
whatever faults he had, he could take

2214
02:19:03,990 --> 02:19:07,307
responsibility,
and was aware that he was setting

2215
02:19:07,390 --> 02:19:11,187
precedents as the first president
of this new republic almost

2216
02:19:11,270 --> 02:19:14,890
every time he did something.
It's a precedent. What did Washington do?

2217
02:19:15,900 --> 02:19:19,100
Well, he gave up his uniform,
and then he gave up the presidency

2218
02:19:19,440 --> 02:19:23,257
- Yeah, just from studying history,
understanding how difficult it

2219
02:19:23,340 --> 02:19:25,755
is to give away power
in the way that Washington did,

2220
02:19:25,839 --> 02:19:27,639
I have to put him as the number one.

2221
02:19:27,780 --> 02:19:29,837
- Yeah, because without him,
the rest doesn't happen.

2222
02:19:29,920 --> 02:19:32,997
I mean, that's my bottom line on it,
and I really do believe that. Without him,

2223
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:33,677
the rest doesn't

2224
02:19:33,760 --> 02:19:37,432
happen. I don't know what... If they
hadn't had Washington to persuade people

2225
02:19:37,515 --> 02:19:41,637
that a stronger central government might
be possible because Washington's gonna

2226
02:19:41,720 --> 02:19:45,397
be president, who else would they
agree could be trusted? There's

2227
02:19:45,480 --> 02:19:47,537
Washington, and then
there's everybody else.

2228
02:19:47,620 --> 02:19:50,840
- And I think America's a truly
positive force in human history.

2229
02:19:51,680 --> 02:19:55,157
So the fact that whatever ideas
that were created at that time, and that

2230
02:19:55,240 --> 02:20:02,080
Washington was the foundation of that,
is a great gift to humanity.

2231
02:20:02,540 --> 02:20:04,336
- Lucky to have him,
lucky to have Lincoln.

2232
02:20:04,419 --> 02:20:06,057
We've been lucky in our leaders, Indy.

2233
02:20:06,140 --> 02:20:09,157
We're lucky to have FDR in World War II.
I mean, we've been lucky to have-

2234
02:20:09,240 --> 02:20:12,280
... people at moments of real crisis.

2235
02:20:12,860 --> 02:20:17,060
- But we need the basement, too.
We need, we need the full variety.

2236
02:20:17,320 --> 02:20:18,470
- Well, we've got them.

2237
02:20:19,600 --> 02:20:23,590
And you never know when we might
need a new sub-basement. So it's just

2238
02:20:23,700 --> 02:20:25,867
complicated and an ongoing story.

2239
02:20:25,950 --> 02:20:29,840
- Man, it is a beautiful theater,
a beautiful drama, and

2240
02:20:30,100 --> 02:20:34,037
I, like you, have faith
in the resilience of the people to

2241
02:20:34,120 --> 02:20:37,197
deal with the full mess of it.
Quick bathroom break if it's okay.

2242
02:20:37,280 --> 02:20:38,017
- Yeah.

2243
02:20:38,100 --> 02:20:43,250
- I wanted to mention to you just
as a plug, but also as a big thank you

2244
02:20:44,340 --> 02:20:48,037
that I don't know how many hours,
it must be maybe over 50

2245
02:20:48,120 --> 02:20:55,120
hours I've enjoyed listening to your Great
Courses. So you have two on the American

2246
02:20:55,620 --> 02:20:57,720
Civil War and on Robert E. Lee.

2247
02:20:58,020 --> 02:20:58,497
- Right.

2248
02:20:58,580 --> 02:21:01,997
- And so I just wanted to mention this
thing that I've been using. It's called

2249
02:21:02,080 --> 02:21:05,660
Plaud. So what I do
is I run along the river,

2250
02:21:06,040 --> 02:21:09,860
and then I'll use this Plaud thing
where you just press the button,

2251
02:21:10,500 --> 02:21:13,857
and then you leave a note, like what
I'm saying now is being recorded.

2252
02:21:13,940 --> 02:21:14,697
- Right.

2253
02:21:14,780 --> 02:21:17,867
- And then it's transcribed.
Those notes are then transferred.

2254
02:21:17,950 --> 02:21:21,184
- God, technology. Geez. - Yeah, this
thing is great. So it's great for just...

2255
02:21:21,268 --> 02:21:22,937
It's been running this
whole time, too, so it's

2256
02:21:23,020 --> 02:21:24,977
transcribing automatically.
It's using AI to transcribe-

2257
02:21:25,060 --> 02:21:27,177
- Oh, so it's doing every word,
everything that we say?

2258
02:21:27,260 --> 02:21:29,550
- Yeah. You know,
transcribing it into text.

2259
02:21:29,740 --> 02:21:30,497
- Right. Right.

2260
02:21:30,580 --> 02:21:34,257
- And then it can summarize it for you,
and then I organize and study the notes

2261
02:21:34,340 --> 02:21:38,057
afterwards. This thing is great.
Highly recommend it. It's called Plaud.

2262
02:21:38,140 --> 02:21:40,480
- Plaud. - Plaud. It's a clip.

2263
02:21:41,060 --> 02:21:44,937
- I used to run around Town Lake or what
was, I guess it's Lady Bird Johnson

2264
02:21:45,020 --> 02:21:50,440
Lake now. Is that what they call it?
We used to run six miles a day at noon

2265
02:21:51,260 --> 02:21:53,499
for years when I worked
at the LBJ Library.

2266
02:21:53,582 --> 02:21:55,580
We had a little group of us who went.

2267
02:21:55,980 --> 02:22:02,560
- Just run? - Just ran. We'd do it in...
We would do six miles in 38 minutes.

2268
02:22:02,960 --> 02:22:07,680
- It's actually a really hard problem
to solve, of how to not take memory.

2269
02:22:08,600 --> 02:22:15,040
I'm just really happy this exists. Okay.
'Cause my smartphone was being a pain

2270
02:22:15,140 --> 02:22:17,034
in the ass, like writing
it down. It's been,

2271
02:22:17,117 --> 02:22:19,167
it's been a hard problem for me to solve.

2272
02:22:20,280 --> 02:22:22,517
You listen to audiobooks
or no? Or you just read?

2273
02:22:22,600 --> 02:22:23,617
- All the time on my w-

2274
02:22:23,700 --> 02:22:27,680
I walk... I don't run anymore,
but I walk six or seven miles a day, and

2275
02:22:27,780 --> 02:22:33,580
I listen to Audible all the time.
That's what I do. I love Audible.

2276
02:22:34,180 --> 02:22:36,900
- Well, just out of curiosity,
just take that tangent.

2277
02:22:37,700 --> 02:22:41,450
Do you listen to, like, history books?
Like what... Or do you wanna escape?

2278
02:22:41,580 --> 02:22:45,500
- I listen to a mixture.
I listen to some history books,

2279
02:22:46,860 --> 02:22:50,497
but I also listen to some mysteries
and some- - So fiction is also-

2280
02:22:50,580 --> 02:22:54,437
- Oh, fiction, oh yeah. Yeah,
and some books that I think I should

2281
02:22:54,520 --> 02:22:58,357
listen to and haven't ever gotten around
to reading. I did Moby Dick that way.

2282
02:22:58,440 --> 02:23:00,260
- Mm-hmm. So the classics also?

2283
02:23:00,360 --> 02:23:04,197
- Oh, yeah. But I've never
read War and Peace, and I

2284
02:23:04,280 --> 02:23:08,280
don't think I ever will. I think... I
would've done it by now if I was going to.

2285
02:23:08,440 --> 02:23:12,357
- We're making a statement today. I like a

2286
02:23:12,440 --> 02:23:15,090
person who's not, not always,
but I like short books.

2287
02:23:15,240 --> 02:23:19,077
- I do too. I write short books.
A lot of long books

2288
02:23:19,160 --> 02:23:22,682
would make good short books, and a lot
of short books would make good essays,

2289
02:23:22,765 --> 02:23:23,477
I think.

2290
02:23:23,560 --> 02:23:26,557
- Yeah, can you... Ugh, I'm sorry to be
taking so many tangents 'cause you've

2291
02:23:26,640 --> 02:23:29,319
written so many excellent books.
How much of it is editing?

2292
02:23:29,402 --> 02:23:34,417
Like how-- or what does it take to write
a good history book? What's the process?

2293
02:23:34,500 --> 02:23:36,020
- Well, for me, it's having

2294
02:23:36,920 --> 02:23:40,577
either a question that you wanna
answer or having some strain in the

2295
02:23:40,660 --> 02:23:44,457
literature that you think is wrong,
and you need to... For me, the

2296
02:23:44,540 --> 02:23:47,869
Union War was trying to rescue something
that I thought people just don't

2297
02:23:47,953 --> 02:23:52,117
understand anymore, is what union
meant to that generation. It makes more

2298
02:23:52,200 --> 02:23:55,977
sense... A war fought
to end slavery makes sense to

2299
02:23:56,060 --> 02:23:59,857
us now. That's, of course, it's
a monstrous institution, fight a war...

2300
02:23:59,940 --> 02:24:03,817
but that's not what it was about
for most of the people. And to

2301
02:24:03,900 --> 02:24:10,517
get at what it was about is a harder
pull, and explaining what union then

2302
02:24:10,600 --> 02:24:16,107
meant to an era where it doesn't
mean anything. I mean, union as they

2303
02:24:16,190 --> 02:24:20,077
understood it does-- it's not
in our vocabulary anymore. It has

2304
02:24:20,160 --> 02:24:22,017
to do with labor relations now.
But to say,

2305
02:24:22,100 --> 02:24:26,570
"What is-- but what does the concept
of union mean?" Get crickets.

2306
02:24:27,060 --> 02:24:31,825
- Is it basically a strong sense
of nation? So, like, what...

2307
02:24:31,909 --> 02:24:33,260
Can we just kinda

2308
02:24:34,160 --> 02:24:38,300
pull that apart?
So there's different states, and

2309
02:24:39,960 --> 02:24:43,810
uh, Americans have always had a sense of,
like, "I'm from this state" pride--

2310
02:24:44,400 --> 02:24:45,127
- Absolutely. -... being from the state.

2311
02:24:45,210 --> 02:24:49,037
- You have different loyalties.
You have a state pride and

2312
02:24:49,120 --> 02:24:53,017
and a and maybe even a regional pride.
I think... I wrote

2313
02:24:53,100 --> 02:24:56,977
a little book where I talked about Robert
E. Lee in that regard as part of it, where

2314
02:24:57,060 --> 02:25:00,957
he has a sense of loyalty
to the nation, to the state, to

2315
02:25:01,040 --> 02:25:04,580
the slaveholding South,
and so forth. But union,

2316
02:25:05,400 --> 02:25:09,157
I mean, it's composed of individual
states which engender loyalties

2317
02:25:09,240 --> 02:25:12,637
among the people who live in them,
but the parts make a greater whole,

2318
02:25:12,720 --> 02:25:16,910
and that's what the union is,
and you have to have the whole--

2319
02:25:18,160 --> 02:25:19,637
To get all the benefits.

2320
02:25:19,720 --> 02:25:23,457
Because... And that is what people
thought then, and they tied it to the

2321
02:25:23,540 --> 02:25:26,215
revolution, of course,
and tied it to earlier sacrifice,

2322
02:25:26,298 --> 02:25:27,457
and tie- They had an eye

2323
02:25:27,540 --> 02:25:31,437
on what's going on in Europe.
I mean, the Western world is, was

2324
02:25:31,520 --> 02:25:34,136
their world. They didn't care
that much about the rest of the world.

2325
02:25:34,219 --> 02:25:35,317
But the Western world, what's

2326
02:25:35,400 --> 02:25:40,917
going on there, and I think they believed
things were going the wrong way in much of

2327
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:44,337
Europe, that the revolu-- the all the

2328
02:25:44,420 --> 02:25:51,090
revolutionary fervor of the 1840s
had seemed to run into a cliff of o-

2329
02:25:51,360 --> 02:25:54,420
oligarchy and aristocracy
and monarchy, and,

2330
02:25:56,320 --> 02:26:00,660
and they saw the US as a bulwark
against that for small D democracy.

2331
02:26:01,220 --> 02:26:03,820
- I think having a faith in nation

2332
02:26:05,360 --> 02:26:09,417
is a beautiful thing.
It's a narrative that unites a people.

2333
02:26:09,500 --> 02:26:13,377
And I think that in itself has power.
It's not... You can make an economic

2334
02:26:13,460 --> 02:26:17,177
argument, you can make a freedom
argument, all these arguments you can

2335
02:26:17,260 --> 02:26:21,197
make, but I think what
makes a nation is a bunch of

2336
02:26:21,280 --> 02:26:25,157
people believing in a narrative. It's
like what makes a great company. There's

2337
02:26:25,240 --> 02:26:29,110
a mission. The power of humans
when you together believe in a

2338
02:26:29,240 --> 02:26:33,150
thing is, is remarkable. And so that
belief in itself is really powerful.

2339
02:26:33,580 --> 02:26:34,830
- That clearly was there,

2340
02:26:35,610 --> 02:26:38,391
Among many, many, many, many.
Not everybody, of course,

2341
02:26:38,474 --> 02:26:39,620
but it was widespread.

2342
02:26:40,660 --> 02:26:45,050
And Lincoln articulated it-...
perfectly, and he did it again and again,

2343
02:26:45,900 --> 02:26:49,637
talking about give, give the...
You wanna give a person a chance to

2344
02:26:49,720 --> 02:26:53,477
rise, a person... And talking
about the last best hope of

2345
02:26:53,560 --> 02:26:57,260
Earth, and talking... I mean,
he got it, and he distilled it, and he

2346
02:26:57,380 --> 02:26:58,420
conveyed it. And

2347
02:26:59,280 --> 02:27:02,817
it's not as if he's telling people
things they don't already know, but he's

2348
02:27:02,900 --> 02:27:08,400
reaffirming things in ways
that are eloquent and memorable.

2349
02:27:08,520 --> 02:27:10,621
- Quick ten-second thank
you to our sponsors.

2350
02:27:10,704 --> 02:27:12,457
Check them out in the description. It

2351
02:27:12,540 --> 02:27:15,177
really is the best way
to support this podcast. Go to

2352
02:27:15,260 --> 02:27:22,240
lexfridman.com/sponsors. And now,
dear friends, back to the conversation.

2353
02:27:23,520 --> 02:27:26,227
All right. So we were talking
about, uh- - Where are we?

2354
02:27:26,310 --> 02:27:32,167
-... Antietam. - Okay. - And how that was,
uh, the moment when The Union realized-

2355
02:27:32,250 --> 02:27:33,550
- Preliminary Proclamation

2356
02:27:34,220 --> 02:27:38,057
-... Preliminary Proclamation, where
it's like, okay, slavery has to be a thing

2357
02:27:38,140 --> 02:27:42,640
as a central part-... of the Civil War.
And so where does that take us? Also

2358
02:27:43,160 --> 02:27:45,928
very bloody battle.
The generals, McClellan,

2359
02:27:46,011 --> 02:27:48,150
the end of the McClellan chapter,

2360
02:27:49,280 --> 02:27:53,137
and that takes us to Fredericksburg.
So what happened at Fredericksburg?

2361
02:27:53,220 --> 02:27:54,660
- Fredericksburg was a

2362
02:27:55,780 --> 02:27:59,697
... It's another victory for Lee. It's an
easy victory for Lee. He has a very strong

2363
02:27:59,780 --> 02:28:03,657
position on high ground across
the Rappahannock River from the Union

2364
02:28:03,740 --> 02:28:07,517
forces, who are opposite Fredericksburg.
His opponent is a guy named Ambrose

2365
02:28:07,600 --> 02:28:11,397
Everett Burnside, who's a very
affable guy, kind of a nice guy, who

2366
02:28:11,480 --> 02:28:15,397
gave us the word sideburns.
He wore his whiskers that came

2367
02:28:15,480 --> 02:28:17,677
down and came up and made, and- - Nice

2368
02:28:17,760 --> 02:28:21,357
-... it wasn't a beard, and they
were called burnsides at the time.

2369
02:28:21,440 --> 02:28:24,760
The burnside cut, which
was transposed into sideburns.

2370
02:28:25,840 --> 02:28:27,590
Everybody liked him. He just wasn't

2371
02:28:28,100 --> 02:28:31,957
very bright in some ways.
He's a politician after the war, so he

2372
02:28:32,040 --> 02:28:38,670
went into the right field, but His idea
at Fredericksburg-... was to, in the end,

2373
02:28:39,620 --> 02:28:43,162
it wasn't his original plan, but he ended
up launching frontal assaults one brigade

2374
02:28:43,245 --> 02:28:47,145
at a time against very strongly entrenched
Confederates, and it was a butchery

2375
02:28:47,900 --> 02:28:51,050
for... And another horrible
defeat for the Army of the Potomac.

2376
02:28:51,640 --> 02:28:55,497
Lincoln was really cast
down by it, and it just

2377
02:28:55,580 --> 02:28:59,417
seemed that in this Eastern theater, he

2378
02:28:59,500 --> 02:29:03,317
could not get any good news. He's
getting good news from the West. He's not

2379
02:29:03,400 --> 02:29:07,017
getting any good news here, and he
has this revolving door of commanders.

2380
02:29:07,100 --> 02:29:10,857
Burnside tried another
march in late January

2381
02:29:10,940 --> 02:29:14,680
1863. He was gonna get around Lee's
flank, but he had horrible weather.

2382
02:29:15,100 --> 02:29:18,040
His army literally got
stuck in the mud. Then it was

2383
02:29:18,380 --> 02:29:22,290
lampooned as the Mud March,
and he removed him from

2384
02:29:22,380 --> 02:29:26,317
command. So now he has another commander
in the Army of the Potomac. So you've had

2385
02:29:26,400 --> 02:29:30,120
McClellan and Burnside,
and now a guy named Joseph Hooker.

2386
02:29:31,480 --> 02:29:35,317
You have no continuity at the top in
that army. You have complete continuity at

2387
02:29:35,400 --> 02:29:38,670
the top in the Army of Northern Virginia,
which is a huge advantage to the Army

2388
02:29:38,753 --> 02:29:40,180
of Northern Virginia.

2389
02:29:40,280 --> 02:29:44,167
- So this is where the, the famous
words of Robert E. Lee were...

2390
02:29:44,250 --> 02:29:45,967
He was watching the slaughter.

2391
02:29:46,050 --> 02:29:49,432
He said that "It is well
that war is so terrible,

2392
02:29:49,515 --> 02:29:51,877
or we should grow too fond of it."

2393
02:29:51,960 --> 02:29:53,210
What did he mean by that?

2394
02:29:53,660 --> 02:29:58,260
- He was getting... I mean,
he was watching his soldiers butcher

2395
02:29:59,080 --> 02:30:03,730
Union soldiers and, I guess,
kind of enjoying it. Uh,

2396
02:30:04,780 --> 02:30:08,377
he's in a really strong position with
really guard artillery supporting his

2397
02:30:08,460 --> 02:30:13,757
infantry, and the Union troops are
just attacking them and not having

2398
02:30:13,840 --> 02:30:20,737
any success. And so there he is. He's
up there with James Longstreet and other

2399
02:30:20,820 --> 02:30:27,820
people and watching it. And he,
unlike McClellan, was willing to risk,

2400
02:30:28,520 --> 02:30:30,608
obviously, piling up
casualties in every battle.

2401
02:30:30,691 --> 02:30:32,437
Didn't have that many at Fredericksburg.

2402
02:30:32,520 --> 02:30:36,517
There were about 12 and a half thousand
US casualties at Fredericksburg and about

2403
02:30:36,600 --> 02:30:40,137
5,500 Confederate casualties
because they were so

2404
02:30:40,220 --> 02:30:42,420
well-protected in their defensive lines.

2405
02:30:43,300 --> 02:30:49,820
- So you are working on a
manuscript on Chancellorsville.

2406
02:30:50,200 --> 02:30:57,200
It's a legendary battle for many reasons.
Can you break down some of the military,

2407
02:30:58,280 --> 02:31:02,197
details of what made up that
battle to give us a sense of,

2408
02:31:02,280 --> 02:31:04,660
in general, what battles were like?

2409
02:31:04,960 --> 02:31:08,697
- This is often described
as Lee's most successful

2410
02:31:08,780 --> 02:31:12,520
battle. It's him against Joseph
Hooker. It's the last battle

2411
02:31:12,760 --> 02:31:16,457
that Lee and Jackson fought as a team,
Lee and Stonewall Jackson, with Stonewall

2412
02:31:16,540 --> 02:31:20,250
Jackson as his principal subordinate.
Hooker had replaced Burnside.

2413
02:31:20,770 --> 02:31:24,607
Hooker had maneuvered to get
rid of Burnside. He wanted

2414
02:31:24,690 --> 02:31:28,577
to be in command of the army. He, he had
made a statement that he said what the

2415
02:31:28,660 --> 02:31:32,507
nation needed was a dictator to make
sure it won. And Lincoln, one of

2416
02:31:32,590 --> 02:31:36,387
the best letters a president
ever wrote to a military

2417
02:31:36,470 --> 02:31:39,370
commander, Lincoln wrote to Hooker,
and he said basically,

2418
02:31:40,340 --> 02:31:43,407
"I know everything you're saying. You're
talking about all the things you're gonna

2419
02:31:43,490 --> 02:31:47,327
do." And he said that, "The only
way you get to be a dictator is if

2420
02:31:47,410 --> 02:31:51,410
you have victories, and I'm willing to
risk a dictatorship to get victories. And

2421
02:31:51,510 --> 02:31:55,050
so I know I've got you figured out,
Joe," he's saying, and he did.

2422
02:31:55,970 --> 02:31:59,810
Hooker made a lot of blustery talk.
He got a... He had a great start.

2423
02:31:59,910 --> 02:32:03,827
He built the army into what he called
the greatest army on the planet, about

2424
02:32:03,910 --> 02:32:10,390
135,000 men, beautifully supplied,
reorganized the medical service in it.

2425
02:32:11,410 --> 02:32:16,910
He, he did everything that you
should do to get an army in shape,

2426
02:32:18,050 --> 02:32:21,807
and then he started a campaign.
His plan, Lee was still at

2427
02:32:21,890 --> 02:32:25,767
Fredericksburg. He was gonna get
around Lee's left flank, come in behind

2428
02:32:25,850 --> 02:32:28,957
him, force Lee to either retreat
to Richmond or fight him on unfavorable

2429
02:32:29,040 --> 02:32:32,527
ground. Everything went well
with Hooker. He got going in late

2430
02:32:32,610 --> 02:32:36,287
April until the moment of truth came.
The moment of truth came on May

2431
02:32:36,370 --> 02:32:39,330
1st, 1863, when Lee,
instead of retreating,

2432
02:32:40,970 --> 02:32:44,847
left part of his army to watch one part
of Hooker's and turned around to meet

2433
02:32:44,930 --> 02:32:48,420
Hooker head-on near a crossroads
called Chancellorsville

2434
02:32:49,430 --> 02:32:53,407
a few miles west of Fredericksburg.
And as soon as the fighting

2435
02:32:53,490 --> 02:32:55,800
started, McClellan lost his nerve-

2436
02:32:55,930 --> 02:32:58,730
... pulled into a defensive
position. And the upshot was

2437
02:32:59,870 --> 02:33:03,400
after Lee and Jackson carried off
a very successful flank attack,

2438
02:33:04,110 --> 02:33:07,867
although it left Hooker still in a very
strong position, Hooker in the end

2439
02:33:07,950 --> 02:33:11,907
retreated, and it was another victory for

2440
02:33:11,990 --> 02:33:15,867
Lee in a battle he never, ever should
have won. He was outnumbered two to one,

2441
02:33:15,950 --> 02:33:18,630
135,000 to about 64,000.

2442
02:33:19,490 --> 02:33:23,267
And when the moment of truth came, Joseph
Hooker just lost his nerve. I mean, I

2443
02:33:23,350 --> 02:33:26,600
really do believe that.
I had fun working on this book. I wrote a

2444
02:33:27,270 --> 02:33:29,741
... A lot of books on campaigns
are very long and detailed.

2445
02:33:29,825 --> 02:33:31,187
I wanted a short book that would

2446
02:33:31,270 --> 02:33:36,470
introduce interested readers who didn't
really know that much perhaps to...

2447
02:33:37,470 --> 02:33:41,075
There's one of the maps. - So there are
different, there's different positions,

2448
02:33:41,158 --> 02:33:42,507
the different troops' positions.

2449
02:33:42,590 --> 02:33:47,280
There's Hooker. - Yes. That is the...
The battle played out on May 1st, 2nd, and

2450
02:33:47,490 --> 02:33:50,947
3rd. There's the opening
of the campaign. See the

2451
02:33:51,030 --> 02:33:52,780
Rappahannock River, Fredericksburg.

2452
02:33:53,390 --> 02:33:57,290
The armies are facing each other there.
Hooker's plan was to leave

2453
02:33:57,450 --> 02:34:01,170
part of his army to hold Lee's
attention and move the rest up the river,

2454
02:34:01,390 --> 02:34:05,307
up the Rappahannock, cross the
Rappahannock and then the Rapidan, and get

2455
02:34:05,390 --> 02:34:08,887
behind Lee so that Lee
would be caught in a vise.

2456
02:34:08,970 --> 02:34:12,707
He'd have Hooker in his rear
and the anvil of other Union troops at

2457
02:34:12,790 --> 02:34:16,186
Fredericksburg, and he thought that that
would force Lee to retreat toward Richmond

2458
02:34:16,269 --> 02:34:16,687
and that he

2459
02:34:16,770 --> 02:34:21,527
could then harass him. They get around,
they get behind Lee. They do exactly what

2460
02:34:21,610 --> 02:34:28,050
Hooker wanted to do. He got
to Chancellorsville. He had more than

2461
02:34:28,290 --> 02:34:32,227
70,000 men at Chancellorsville,
and Lee doesn't find out till the

2462
02:34:32,310 --> 02:34:36,010
very end of April what's going on,
and then he decides to divide his army,

2463
02:34:36,710 --> 02:34:40,567
leave 10,000 men to watch 40,000
Federals at Fredericksburg, and he

2464
02:34:40,650 --> 02:34:44,387
and Stonewall Jackson head
back toward Chancellorsville to

2465
02:34:44,470 --> 02:34:48,347
meet Hooker. And they
meet on May the 1st. The

2466
02:34:48,430 --> 02:34:52,027
fighting starts on May the 1st.
Everybody's upbeat in the Army of the

2467
02:34:52,110 --> 02:34:53,700
Potomac. They've gotten
around Lee's flank.

2468
02:34:53,783 --> 02:34:55,647
They know they're behind him.
Everything seems to

2469
02:34:55,730 --> 02:34:59,647
go very well. Hooker said,
"This is it. We've done

2470
02:34:59,730 --> 02:35:01,407
it. We've done exactly
what I wanted to do."

2471
02:35:01,490 --> 02:35:04,140
And then the fighting starts
the next day on May 1st.

2472
02:35:04,630 --> 02:35:07,490
They march toward that place called
Zoan Church. You can see there,

2473
02:35:07,573 --> 02:35:08,467
it's just a little bit

2474
02:35:08,550 --> 02:35:12,327
east of Chancellorsville.
And the fighting, they collide about

2475
02:35:12,410 --> 02:35:16,260
11:00 in the morning. 2:00 that afternoon,
Hooker orders a retreat.

2476
02:35:17,030 --> 02:35:20,141
Everybody retreats back
into this wilderness.

2477
02:35:20,224 --> 02:35:22,850
It's a kind of cut-over, woodsy area,

2478
02:35:23,790 --> 02:35:27,467
that it has very few roads,
and he just hunkers down around

2479
02:35:27,550 --> 02:35:30,950
Chancellorsville,
hands the initiative to Lee.

2480
02:35:31,800 --> 02:35:35,407
The next day, Jackson
and Lee decide to send

2481
02:35:35,490 --> 02:35:39,287
Jackson all the way around
the right flank, and you see the

2482
02:35:39,370 --> 02:35:43,267
flank march there. They come,
they strike a Union corps

2483
02:35:43,350 --> 02:35:47,287
that's exposed, commanded by a man named
Oliver Otis Howard. Howard University

2484
02:35:47,370 --> 02:35:51,510
is named after him. He headed
the Freedmen's Bureau later in the war.

2485
02:35:52,630 --> 02:35:56,447
They strike, they crush the 11th
Corps, which has a very high

2486
02:35:56,530 --> 02:35:59,908
German element in it, and there's a lot
of ethnic prejudice that comes into play

2487
02:35:59,991 --> 02:36:00,467
there by the

2488
02:36:00,550 --> 02:36:06,010
other soldiers. But it ends up,
the day ends up with Lee actually in worse

2489
02:36:06,410 --> 02:36:09,947
shape than he was before. He's got two
divisions over here under Anderson and

2490
02:36:10,030 --> 02:36:13,727
McLaws on the lower right.
He's not even in touch with

2491
02:36:13,810 --> 02:36:17,530
Jackson's corps. Jackson was wounded
that night by his own men,

2492
02:36:17,770 --> 02:36:20,270
carried from the field.
He'd die a few days later.

2493
02:36:21,110 --> 02:36:24,793
And Hooker still, although Hooker is in
between these two parts of Lee's army,

2494
02:36:24,877 --> 02:36:29,027
he's in an ideal position. He's still just
thinking about the defense even. Where on

2495
02:36:29,110 --> 02:36:30,290
the morning of May 3rd,

2496
02:36:31,130 --> 02:36:35,177
the two parts of Lee's army fight their
way together around the Chancellorsville-

2497
02:36:35,260 --> 02:36:38,927
... clearing, and Hooker then retreats
toward the north. You have this

2498
02:36:39,010 --> 02:36:42,947
amazing moment on May the 3rd
where Hooker, who's been stunned

2499
02:36:43,030 --> 02:36:48,287
by an artillery round that hit a pillar he
was leaning against at Chancellorsville-

2500
02:36:48,370 --> 02:36:52,580
... he had a concussion.
He was vomiting. He retreated to the rear.

2501
02:36:53,610 --> 02:36:57,447
And as the Union troops retreated
from that clearing near Chancellorsville,

2502
02:36:57,530 --> 02:36:58,930
Lee's army

2503
02:36:59,830 --> 02:37:03,001
had fought itself together, and Lee
rode into the middle of his troops.

2504
02:37:03,084 --> 02:37:06,910
And there was this amazing
moment when this spontaneous

2505
02:37:07,010 --> 02:37:10,430
outpouring of emotion on the part
of the Confederates, that's

2506
02:37:10,810 --> 02:37:14,467
the moment when Lee and his men finished
this period of bonding this year that

2507
02:37:14,550 --> 02:37:18,223
was unmatched in the Civil War.
See, there's no way Lee should've won

2508
02:37:18,307 --> 02:37:18,947
this battle.

2509
02:37:19,030 --> 02:37:22,910
There's one more day of action
a little farther to the east. But in the

2510
02:37:23,010 --> 02:37:26,527
end, Hooker retreats. He never should've
retreated. He was in an impregnable

2511
02:37:26,610 --> 02:37:28,570
position, but he did retreat.

2512
02:37:29,440 --> 02:37:33,420
And Lincoln was absolutely
beside himself after this. He

2513
02:37:33,620 --> 02:37:35,703
just couldn't... Everybody
knew what the numbers were.

2514
02:37:35,786 --> 02:37:37,107
The newspapers had talked about it-

2515
02:37:37,190 --> 02:37:40,277
... that Lee had only half
as many men as Hooker, and once

2516
02:37:40,360 --> 02:37:44,237
again, the Army of the Potomac,
the largest and most important army of

2517
02:37:44,320 --> 02:37:49,160
the Republic, has been defeated
by this smaller army. It,

2518
02:37:50,000 --> 02:37:53,840
Lee's sort of legend in the
North grew and in the South.

2519
02:37:54,160 --> 02:37:57,717
He became, by this point, he and his
army were the most important national

2520
02:37:57,800 --> 02:38:01,637
institution in the Confederacy. People
looked to them to see whether indep- It's

2521
02:38:01,720 --> 02:38:04,435
like Washington and the Continental
Army during the Revolution.

2522
02:38:04,518 --> 02:38:08,470
If they're still in the field,
there's still a chance for victory. This

2523
02:38:09,040 --> 02:38:12,517
cemented that position
for Lee, this victory at

2524
02:38:12,600 --> 02:38:16,357
Chancellorsville did, in the minds
of Confederates, and made him a kind of

2525
02:38:16,440 --> 02:38:18,740
bugaboo to people in the North.
They were just

2526
02:38:19,170 --> 02:38:22,280
thirsty for someone to defeat
Lee and capture Richmond.

2527
02:38:22,640 --> 02:38:25,857
- So this, in some sense,
created the legend of Robert E. Lee.

2528
02:38:25,940 --> 02:38:29,300
- It certainly helped solidi- Yes,
it did. It went a long way

2529
02:38:29,660 --> 02:38:31,840
toward doing it. A long way.

2530
02:38:31,980 --> 02:38:35,177
- So you write about, you know,
the difference between sort of reality and

2531
02:38:35,260 --> 02:38:41,897
memory. How does the North remember
this battle, and how does the South

2532
02:38:41,980 --> 02:38:43,030
remember this battle?

2533
02:38:43,180 --> 02:38:46,839
- It's really fascinating. The North
remembers this battle by not remembering

2534
02:38:46,923 --> 02:38:47,617
it very much. - Yeah, ignoring it.

2535
02:38:47,700 --> 02:38:52,280
- They sort of airbrush it out of their
memory of the war. The Confederates,

2536
02:38:53,580 --> 02:38:57,277
in the iconography of the
Lost Cause, this... Lee and

2537
02:38:57,360 --> 02:39:01,337
Jackson had their last meeting ever here
just before the fighting on May 2nd got

2538
02:39:01,420 --> 02:39:05,357
going, and there was a famous painting
of that done by an artist named

2539
02:39:05,440 --> 02:39:12,440
Julio that was then reprinted as a
lithograph that hung in innumerable homes

2540
02:39:13,300 --> 02:39:16,900
and offices and courthouses
in the South. It's Lee and Jackson

2541
02:39:17,520 --> 02:39:20,980
at high tide, kind of.
Gettysburg hasn't happened, never mind

2542
02:39:21,080 --> 02:39:24,615
Appomattox. These are the two greatest
Confederate soldiers at their greatest

2543
02:39:24,698 --> 02:39:28,980
moment of success. It became
hugely important in the Lost Cause

2544
02:39:29,820 --> 02:39:33,517
telling of the war.
On the Union side, they didn't

2545
02:39:33,600 --> 02:39:35,689
wanna talk about Joseph
Hooker that much. They had...

2546
02:39:35,772 --> 02:39:37,672
They'd rather talk about other things.

2547
02:39:38,010 --> 02:39:40,606
- Yeah, it's probably one of the most
humiliating battles of the war from

2548
02:39:40,689 --> 02:39:44,070
the Union side. - It,
I think it's, it's really,

2549
02:39:45,860 --> 02:39:48,573
it's just a, it's amazing that Hooker
lost this. It's just amazing.

2550
02:39:48,657 --> 02:39:49,777
And it shows the complete

2551
02:39:49,860 --> 02:39:53,900
dominance of one personality over
another personality, in my view.

2552
02:39:54,720 --> 02:39:56,857
- So Stonewall Jackson was shot, killed.

2553
02:39:56,940 --> 02:40:00,757
- Shot by his own men, out trying
to reconnoiter and keep the battle going

2554
02:40:00,840 --> 02:40:04,457
and exploit his successes,
carried back to the rear, and he

2555
02:40:04,540 --> 02:40:07,740
died on May 10th, died eight days later.

2556
02:40:08,200 --> 02:40:13,020
- So what impact did that have
of Stonewall Jackson's death?

2557
02:40:13,540 --> 02:40:17,417
- Well, that had a hu-- That,
there was unbelievable mourning

2558
02:40:17,500 --> 02:40:19,420
across the Confederacy about that,

2559
02:40:20,520 --> 02:40:24,477
and even since, really interesting,
even some positive comments in the North

2560
02:40:24,560 --> 02:40:26,573
about how he'd been
a sor-- He was misguided,

2561
02:40:26,656 --> 02:40:28,477
but a very religious guy and all of this

2562
02:40:28,560 --> 02:40:32,160
stuff, but they're quietly very, "That's
really good news for the United States

2563
02:40:32,243 --> 02:40:36,330
that Stonewall Jackson is dead,
and really bad news for the Confederacy."

2564
02:40:37,200 --> 02:40:43,040
- Outside the myth, did it actually
have a practical impact on, on the war?

2565
02:40:43,720 --> 02:40:46,661
- I don't think so, and the people who
love Stonewall Jackson would disagree

2566
02:40:46,745 --> 02:40:47,717
with me, but I don't see

2567
02:40:47,800 --> 02:40:51,557
where he would've... He was a very
good soldier at what he did, and Lee

2568
02:40:51,640 --> 02:40:55,380
used him very well, and they were
a good partnership, but I don't

2569
02:40:55,480 --> 02:40:59,340
see how he would've changed the larger
contours of the war. I don't.

2570
02:40:59,940 --> 02:41:01,728
- If we zoom out
and look at Robert E. Lee,

2571
02:41:01,812 --> 02:41:04,840
somebody you've written about
quite a bit, studied a lot,

2572
02:41:05,820 --> 02:41:09,757
do you think we can use this battle to try
to understand the military genius of

2573
02:41:09,840 --> 02:41:11,960
the man and, in general, who he was?

2574
02:41:12,440 --> 02:41:15,737
- I do, and it shows both
why he was successful and

2575
02:41:15,820 --> 02:41:19,577
why some of the reasons he
was successful opened the way for

2576
02:41:19,660 --> 02:41:23,160
what should've been big defeats
but didn't. I mean, Lee's personality

2577
02:41:23,260 --> 02:41:28,520
was, at heart, aggressive.
His first impulse was always to take the

2578
02:41:29,340 --> 02:41:33,117
war to the opponent. He said, "They
outnumber us. If we just sit and wait

2579
02:41:33,200 --> 02:41:36,877
for them to come to us, they're gonna
have all the advantages. We need to try to

2580
02:41:36,960 --> 02:41:38,997
disrupt them and look for openings."

2581
02:41:39,080 --> 02:41:42,270
What this campaign showed
was his audacity. He divided his

2582
02:41:42,360 --> 02:41:46,217
army three times in the
course of this campaign in

2583
02:41:46,300 --> 02:41:50,300
the face of a much more powerful
opponent, which showed his audacity.

2584
02:41:51,270 --> 02:41:54,690
It also highlighted the overall

2585
02:41:54,860 --> 02:41:57,667
culture that he created in his
army, which was a culture of

2586
02:41:57,750 --> 02:42:01,697
risk-taking, of seeking to inflict
the greatest possible harm on your

2587
02:42:01,780 --> 02:42:05,577
opponent. It's the antithesis of the
culture that McClellan created in the

2588
02:42:05,660 --> 02:42:09,380
Army of the Potomac, which is a culture
of caution, of not taking risks,

2589
02:42:09,880 --> 02:42:12,800
of not doing anything until
everything is just right.

2590
02:42:13,120 --> 02:42:15,115
Any adult knows everything
is never just right,

2591
02:42:15,198 --> 02:42:17,027
so if you're waiting
for that, you'll never

2592
02:42:17,110 --> 02:42:20,937
do anything. It's the,
two cultures are absolutely

2593
02:42:21,020 --> 02:42:24,580
antithetical to one another,
and in the end, it shows

2594
02:42:24,680 --> 02:42:28,900
Lee and how what he had accomplished,
he had created an army

2595
02:42:30,720 --> 02:42:35,137
that was willing to absorb casualties
because it won all the time.

2596
02:42:35,220 --> 02:42:38,957
And they realized that that was,
they believed, making it more

2597
02:42:39,040 --> 02:42:42,977
likely that their whole war effort
would be successful. There are only a few

2598
02:42:43,060 --> 02:42:45,421
times during the war where you get
a scene like you got on May 3rd,

2599
02:42:45,504 --> 02:42:46,554
where this whole army

2600
02:42:47,080 --> 02:42:50,817
sees the old man ride into their midst,
basically, and just has this... I

2601
02:42:50,900 --> 02:42:54,337
think they decided
at that point, the soldiers,

2602
02:42:54,420 --> 02:42:58,237
that he was always gonna win, and Lee
looked at them and thought, "They can do

2603
02:42:58,320 --> 02:43:02,157
whatever I ask them to do." I think if you
wanna understand Gettysburg, if you wanna

2604
02:43:02,240 --> 02:43:03,640
understand Pickett's Charge,

2605
02:43:04,480 --> 02:43:06,810
you need to look back to May
3rd at Chancellorsville,

2606
02:43:06,894 --> 02:43:10,844
when Lee just decided that his infantry
could do anything he wanted them to do.

2607
02:43:11,140 --> 02:43:14,157
- But also from the infantry
perspective, they believed in the-

2608
02:43:14,240 --> 02:43:18,177
- You asked me earlier about what did the
soldiers' letters say. The letters from

2609
02:43:18,260 --> 02:43:21,620
Lee's army, they absolutely didn't even

2610
02:43:21,720 --> 02:43:25,620
contemplate losing to the Army of the
Potomac. I mean, they just didn't think-

2611
02:43:26,000 --> 02:43:27,857
They didn't think they would lose to it

2612
02:43:27,940 --> 02:43:31,417
- What do you attribute that to?
Is that, does it, Robert E. Lee, to him?

2613
02:43:31,500 --> 02:43:34,443
- It's to Lee and the fact that they
won these victories under Lee,

2614
02:43:34,527 --> 02:43:35,267
and that they took

2615
02:43:35,350 --> 02:43:38,271
these chances, and everybody tried.
And they always knew that they were

2616
02:43:38,354 --> 02:43:39,157
outnumbered, and yet

2617
02:43:39,240 --> 02:43:42,657
they were still winning. The closest
the numbers had ever been at the seven

2618
02:43:42,740 --> 02:43:46,617
days when the armies were about the same
size, but after that, Lee is always at

2619
02:43:46,700 --> 02:43:52,840
a significant disadvantage in numbers,
and yet he seems to be victorious.

2620
02:43:53,240 --> 02:43:57,031
- So Lee's aggressiveness,
like you've mentioned,

2621
02:43:57,114 --> 02:43:59,960
produced also staggering casualties.

2622
02:44:00,240 --> 02:44:03,977
- Staggering casualties.
He lost 13,000 men here, and Hooker about

2623
02:44:04,060 --> 02:44:07,997
17,500. A much higher proportion

2624
02:44:08,080 --> 02:44:11,977
of Lee's army than Hooker lost
in his army. But this should've been

2625
02:44:12,060 --> 02:44:15,360
a disaster for Lee.
Hooker should have crushed Lee here.

2626
02:44:16,260 --> 02:44:18,537
Absolutely should have
crushed Lee, but he didn't.

2627
02:44:18,620 --> 02:44:22,297
- So there's two cases:
Lee's audacity being the

2628
02:44:22,380 --> 02:44:26,337
South's best hope
of winning the war, but the

2629
02:44:26,420 --> 02:44:29,580
other case is he was actually
bleeding the South dry.

2630
02:44:29,920 --> 02:44:33,417
- Yes, and historians have criticized
him for not just being on the

2631
02:44:33,500 --> 02:44:38,434
defensive all the time. I think Lee
understood better than many of his critics

2632
02:44:38,517 --> 02:44:42,117
now understand that the key
was Northern civilian opinion.

2633
02:44:42,200 --> 02:44:46,160
He said it more than once, "If we win
victories, it will depress their morale.

2634
02:44:46,500 --> 02:44:49,156
If their morale is depressed,
the Democrats will do better.

2635
02:44:49,239 --> 02:44:52,710
If the Democrats get into office,
it's good for the Confederacy."

2636
02:44:53,880 --> 02:44:57,817
And he also knew that he was... It's
a race between, "Am I gonna run out of men

2637
02:44:57,900 --> 02:44:59,437
before they run out of morale

2638
02:44:59,520 --> 02:45:03,377
... in the United States?"
I think he understood that, and I think

2639
02:45:03,460 --> 02:45:07,377
that was the best chance for the
Confederacy to win. And in the end, I'm

2640
02:45:07,460 --> 02:45:10,980
very happy to report,
the Confederacy ran out of men

2641
02:45:11,140 --> 02:45:15,027
before the Union ran out of morale.
And so the war went

2642
02:45:15,110 --> 02:45:18,697
the way it did. But I think Lee
was very perceptive in that regard. He

2643
02:45:18,780 --> 02:45:25,037
understood how important politically
what happened militarily was.

2644
02:45:25,120 --> 02:45:28,957
Much better understanding of that than a
lot of people had at the time, and better

2645
02:45:29,040 --> 02:45:31,828
understanding, I think,
than a lot of historians have now.

2646
02:45:31,911 --> 02:45:33,011
And this is a horrible

2647
02:45:33,800 --> 02:45:36,020
time for the US because

2648
02:45:36,980 --> 02:45:40,857
behind the lines, people are
in ra- Democrats are unhappy with

2649
02:45:40,940 --> 02:45:42,480
the Emancipation Proclamation.

2650
02:45:43,500 --> 02:45:47,437
Just two months before this,
Congress passed the Conscription Act.

2651
02:45:47,520 --> 02:45:51,037
Democrats are very unhappy about that.
They're saying that Lincoln is a tyrant.

2652
02:45:51,120 --> 02:45:55,020
He's forcing people into a war that's
not the war they wanted to fight anyway.

2653
02:45:55,560 --> 02:45:57,500
Union morale is very fragile.

2654
02:45:58,460 --> 02:46:02,420
Morale, civilian morale at this point,
and this makes it much, much

2655
02:46:02,800 --> 02:46:05,480
worse. The draft riots in New York City,

2656
02:46:06,600 --> 02:46:10,397
the first draft numbers were pulled
in New York City in July. The draft riots

2657
02:46:10,480 --> 02:46:13,797
come right after Gettysburg,
but that is symptomatic of what

2658
02:46:13,880 --> 02:46:17,417
morale... Desertions went up in the Army
of the Potomac after the Emancipation

2659
02:46:17,500 --> 02:46:18,460
Proclamation.

2660
02:46:18,580 --> 02:46:22,967
- So at this point, the Confederacy
is arguably very close to winning the war.

2661
02:46:23,050 --> 02:46:26,420
- I think this is one
of the more optimistic points

2662
02:46:27,160 --> 02:46:32,900
for the Confederacy, is in the late spring
and early summer of 1863. Yes, I do.

2663
02:46:33,300 --> 02:46:37,257
- If Robert E. Lee is correct, in that
it's all about morale, which seems like a,

2664
02:46:37,340 --> 02:46:42,877
a valid argument, then this feels, like,
very close to breaking the morale of the

2665
02:46:42,960 --> 02:46:43,617
Union.

2666
02:46:43,700 --> 02:46:47,497
- In the Eastern Theater, I think it is,
but in the Western Theater we have our

2667
02:46:47,580 --> 02:46:50,983
boy Grant... who's operating
against Vicksburg at this point.

2668
02:46:51,067 --> 02:46:52,177
So there are two big

2669
02:46:52,260 --> 02:46:55,880
campaigns kind of going on at this time,
and Vicksburg is the other one.

2670
02:46:56,700 --> 02:46:59,357
- Can you speak to Vicksburg? This is '63.

2671
02:46:59,440 --> 02:47:03,220
- Yeah, this is '63,
and Vicksburg is the last major

2672
02:47:03,360 --> 02:47:06,937
Confederate citadel on the Mississippi
River. They've already lost New

2673
02:47:07,020 --> 02:47:08,953
Orleans. They've lost...
So they've lost the river.

2674
02:47:09,037 --> 02:47:10,887
It's not a Confederate river anymore.

2675
02:47:11,000 --> 02:47:12,826
But they still have
a strong point at Vicksburg,

2676
02:47:12,909 --> 02:47:14,537
and another one at Port Hudson in Northern

2677
02:47:14,620 --> 02:47:19,267
Louisiana. Grant has been operating
against Vicksburg since the winter of

2678
02:47:19,350 --> 02:47:22,900
'62, and he's finally, through
a series of trial and errors and

2679
02:47:23,020 --> 02:47:26,857
failures, he's finally found a way
that he thinks he can get to the

2680
02:47:26,940 --> 02:47:30,777
city. He takes great risks.
He crosses the Mississippi

2681
02:47:30,860 --> 02:47:34,680
River after having the Union
Navy run past all the batteries,

2682
02:47:34,780 --> 02:47:36,956
the artillery batteries
there at Vicksburg,

2683
02:47:37,039 --> 02:47:42,677
and he invests the city from the east.
He's laying siege to Vicksburg while he's

2684
02:47:42,760 --> 02:47:46,082
just getting his campaign to do
that started when Hooker is

2685
02:47:46,166 --> 02:47:47,320
at Chancellorsville.

2686
02:47:48,640 --> 02:47:52,507
In May, he invests the city
and begins a siege that

2687
02:47:52,590 --> 02:47:56,457
will end just as the Battle
of Gettysburg ends, and it's, it's one

2688
02:47:56,540 --> 02:48:00,377
of the most impressive campaigns in US
military history, Grant's campaign

2689
02:48:00,460 --> 02:48:04,297
against Vicksburg. Cuts loose from his
supply lines. Nobody understands

2690
02:48:04,380 --> 02:48:06,548
what he's doing.
Sherman doesn't get what he's doing.

2691
02:48:06,631 --> 02:48:08,431
Lincoln doesn't get what he's doing.

2692
02:48:08,740 --> 02:48:12,600
And in the end they go, "Oh, that's
what you were doing." And it worked.

2693
02:48:12,960 --> 02:48:18,840
And in the end, he captures Vicksburg,
which surrenders on July 4th, 1863.

2694
02:48:19,680 --> 02:48:23,597
And if you don't think that a
kind of religious people didn't

2695
02:48:23,680 --> 02:48:27,457
read divine intervention into
catching, having that happen on

2696
02:48:27,540 --> 02:48:31,380
July 4th, 1863, you would be incorrect.

2697
02:48:32,010 --> 02:48:35,060
That's the same day that Lee
retreated from Gettysburg. What?

2698
02:48:35,990 --> 02:48:39,877
Really? God's not putting a thumb
on the scales here? Huge victories in

2699
02:48:39,960 --> 02:48:43,377
the West, huge victory in the
East on the anniversary of the

2700
02:48:43,460 --> 02:48:46,940
Declaration of Independence.
- Well, that takes us to Gettysburg.

2701
02:48:47,080 --> 02:48:48,857
- Here we are at Gettysburg. - Here we go.

2702
02:48:48,940 --> 02:48:52,880
- Which everybody knows, Lex,
is the turning point of the Civil War.

2703
02:48:53,400 --> 02:48:54,550
- Or is it? Okay. - No.

2704
02:48:55,620 --> 02:48:56,337
- All right. - Short answer.

2705
02:48:56,420 --> 02:49:00,317
- Well, that's first...
Before we before we analyze

2706
02:49:00,400 --> 02:49:03,447
the, its role as a turning
point or not- - Yes, yes.

2707
02:49:03,530 --> 02:49:05,757
-... what is Gettysburg? July 1863.

2708
02:49:05,840 --> 02:49:08,590
- Okay. - Walk me through
the three days of Gettysburg.

2709
02:49:08,840 --> 02:49:12,517
- So Joe Hooker retreats across the
Rappahannock. Lee is frustrated because he

2710
02:49:12,600 --> 02:49:16,337
hasn't dealt more damage
to Hooker, and this is what he

2711
02:49:16,420 --> 02:49:19,817
decides to do. He decides to move
north for a second time. His

2712
02:49:19,900 --> 02:49:23,837
army is strengthened.
He builds it up to 75,000. This is

2713
02:49:23,920 --> 02:49:27,360
his army at its absolute apogee
as he gets ready to go north.

2714
02:49:27,860 --> 02:49:31,737
It's confident.
It's well-supplied, well-led. And so

2715
02:49:31,820 --> 02:49:35,737
they head north second week in June,
and here's what his goal is. He has two

2716
02:49:35,820 --> 02:49:39,400
main goals. He wants to take
the war out of Virginia so that the

2717
02:49:39,500 --> 02:49:43,317
agricultural sector isn't subject
to the presence of the army, so to

2718
02:49:43,400 --> 02:49:47,237
let agriculture recover a little,
and he wants to provision his army off

2719
02:49:47,320 --> 02:49:51,060
the rich Cumberland Valley
in Pennsylvania, siphon fodder and

2720
02:49:51,160 --> 02:49:55,017
food and animals while he's
north of the Potomac, and he

2721
02:49:55,100 --> 02:49:58,042
wants to stay up there for a long
time to keep the war out of Virginia.

2722
02:49:58,125 --> 02:49:58,977
He doesn't wanna-- He

2723
02:49:59,060 --> 02:50:02,977
has no... The movie Gettysburg,
he says he wants to capture Washington.

2724
02:50:03,060 --> 02:50:06,897
No, he doesn't wanna capture Washington.
He knows it's too strong. He

2725
02:50:06,980 --> 02:50:10,373
has no idea of doing that, but he knows
he'll pull the Union Army after him

2726
02:50:10,456 --> 02:50:14,997
and simply reorient the war, and he knows
it'll be bad politically for Lincoln-

2727
02:50:15,080 --> 02:50:17,376
... if he's actually
operating in the United States.

2728
02:50:17,459 --> 02:50:18,859
So off he goes to the north.

2729
02:50:19,180 --> 02:50:22,937
He gets north of the river.
His cavalry under Jeb Stuart is not

2730
02:50:23,020 --> 02:50:24,800
doing its job because poor Jeb,

2731
02:50:25,780 --> 02:50:29,240
who is a very good cavalryman
but has a sort of adolescent streak

2732
02:50:29,780 --> 02:50:33,717
where he has to be praised all
the time, he fights a, the biggest

2733
02:50:33,800 --> 02:50:37,520
cavalry battle of the war near
Culpeper, Virginia, Battle of Brandy

2734
02:50:37,620 --> 02:50:40,140
Station on June the 9th,
and he almost loses,

2735
02:50:41,240 --> 02:50:45,077
and it hurts his little feelings. And so
he decides that he needs to do something

2736
02:50:45,160 --> 02:50:47,867
dramatic so the newspapers
will love him again.

2737
02:50:47,950 --> 02:50:51,737
And he decides to ride all the way around
the Army of the Potomac, which he did when

2738
02:50:51,820 --> 02:50:55,066
McClellan was in command. It's easier to
do it when McClellan's in command 'cause

2739
02:50:55,149 --> 02:50:58,720
he's never moving.
He decides he'll do it again here.

2740
02:51:00,070 --> 02:51:03,957
And just as he gets east
of the Army of the Potomac, the

2741
02:51:04,040 --> 02:51:07,777
Army of the Potomac starts to move
north, and so Stuart is trapped

2742
02:51:07,860 --> 02:51:09,652
with... and he can't communicate with Lee.

2743
02:51:09,736 --> 02:51:11,737
So Lee doesn't know
what's going on 'cause his

2744
02:51:11,820 --> 02:51:15,157
cavalry isn't doing its job.
He spreads his army across southern

2745
02:51:15,240 --> 02:51:19,320
Pennsylvania and then finds
out from a sort of civilian spy,

2746
02:51:20,220 --> 02:51:24,000
guy named Harrison, that the Army
of the Potomac is actually following him

2747
02:51:24,300 --> 02:51:28,197
and is much closer, and Lee
at the end of June orders his army to

2748
02:51:28,280 --> 02:51:32,880
concentrate near Gettysburg
and not to bring on a battle,

2749
02:51:32,964 --> 02:51:36,140
and they concentrate.
Most of them come together.

2750
02:51:36,940 --> 02:51:40,457
There's a little clash on June
the 30th, but on July the 1st, the

2751
02:51:40,540 --> 02:51:44,417
armies make contact
to the west of Gettysburg in

2752
02:51:44,500 --> 02:51:48,397
a meeting engagement and more troops
coming on each side. It builds into what

2753
02:51:48,480 --> 02:51:52,337
turns into the three-day biggest
battle of the Civil War. It's not

2754
02:51:52,420 --> 02:51:53,720
something Lee had planned,

2755
02:51:54,400 --> 02:51:57,493
And it wouldn't have happened if
his cavalry had been doing its job,

2756
02:51:57,576 --> 02:51:58,426
but they weren't,

2757
02:51:59,000 --> 02:52:02,440
and so here they come and there's
a battle that goes for three days.

2758
02:52:03,120 --> 02:52:06,897
Lee has the-- He takes the tactical
aggressive every day. He

2759
02:52:06,980 --> 02:52:10,940
does the attacking. The Federals
do the defending. Lee's army's

2760
02:52:11,180 --> 02:52:15,240
75,000. The other army's
about 85,000, 88,000.

2761
02:52:16,480 --> 02:52:20,317
And famous terrain, Little Round
Top, Round Top, Devil's Den, the

2762
02:52:20,400 --> 02:52:24,277
Peach Orchard, all these famous places,
and it ends on the third day. Lee

2763
02:52:24,360 --> 02:52:27,897
comes close on the second day, a huge
victory for the Confederates on the first

2764
02:52:27,980 --> 02:52:31,460
day. Third day, Lee's frustrated

2765
02:52:32,040 --> 02:52:35,957
and he just decides to let his
infantry take care of it for him and the

2766
02:52:36,040 --> 02:52:39,977
result is what most people
call Pickett's Charge. Pickett

2767
02:52:40,060 --> 02:52:41,560
was just a part of the charge.

2768
02:52:42,540 --> 02:52:46,117
12 and a half thousand infantry
in a direct assault and it fails

2769
02:52:46,200 --> 02:52:51,820
completely and he retreats the next day. I
think you can draw a straight line between

2770
02:52:52,740 --> 02:52:56,597
May the 3rd at Chancellorsville
when his infantry fought

2771
02:52:56,680 --> 02:53:00,497
their way together and July the 3rd
at Gettysburg. He admits it too as he

2772
02:53:00,580 --> 02:53:03,049
writes letters to both his
wife and Jefferson Davis saying,

2773
02:53:03,132 --> 02:53:04,782
"I asked too much of my infantry.

2774
02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:08,000
No fault is on them.
All the fault is on me."

2775
02:53:09,260 --> 02:53:12,777
And he was right. All the fault was on
him. He and Grant are alike that way.

2776
02:53:12,860 --> 02:53:16,097
They accept responsibility,
not like McClellan. His first reaction is,

2777
02:53:16,181 --> 02:53:17,181
"It's not my fault,"

2778
02:53:17,780 --> 02:53:20,333
to pick a general at random who
did this. "It's not my fault.

2779
02:53:20,416 --> 02:53:23,500
It must be somebody else's fault."
Lee took responsibility.

2780
02:53:24,860 --> 02:53:28,577
He expected too much from his infantry.
His subordinates had not been

2781
02:53:28,660 --> 02:53:32,560
doing that good a job and they
lost the biggest battle of the war.

2782
02:53:33,020 --> 02:53:36,737
- What was the military mistake there?
What could Robert E. Lee have done

2783
02:53:36,820 --> 02:53:37,537
differently?

2784
02:53:37,620 --> 02:53:41,034
- I think what he could have done, the
most perceptive Confederate soldier who

2785
02:53:41,117 --> 02:53:44,940
wrote about the war was a guy named Edward
Porter Alexander who was the most gifted

2786
02:53:45,023 --> 02:53:47,840
artillerist. He's in Lee's army.
He wrote after the war,

2787
02:53:49,140 --> 02:53:52,890
Lee won a great victory on July
1st at Gettysburg, smashed two

2788
02:53:53,060 --> 02:53:56,817
Union infantry corps, had a very
strong position. He should've just

2789
02:53:56,900 --> 02:54:00,600
hunkered down and said, "Okay,
attack me. See what you can do."

2790
02:54:01,920 --> 02:54:05,677
He didn't do that. He almost certainly
would've won the battle if he had done

2791
02:54:05,760 --> 02:54:09,177
that, but he, his, this is where
his aggressiveness gets him in

2792
02:54:09,260 --> 02:54:12,797
trouble. He was pushing
for a more aggressive, more

2793
02:54:12,880 --> 02:54:18,400
decisive outcome right then
and he ended up costing... He lost

2794
02:54:19,800 --> 02:54:23,560
probably 25,000 men at Gettysburg,
at least a third of his army.

2795
02:54:24,140 --> 02:54:27,640
More than that, he went across the river,
went across the Potomac with

2796
02:54:27,820 --> 02:54:29,840
52 generals in his army.

2797
02:54:31,040 --> 02:54:34,777
17 of them became casualties.
He lost a third of his entire

2798
02:54:34,860 --> 02:54:38,421
corps of generals killed, wounded,
or captured in the Gettysburg Campaign.

2799
02:54:38,504 --> 02:54:42,757
It's a really bloody, costly campaign
for him and he ends up retreating

2800
02:54:42,840 --> 02:54:48,300
back into Virginia. It comes to it, and
Lincoln is at first very happy about it.

2801
02:54:49,700 --> 02:54:53,377
There's another, yet another general in
command on the Union side. Hooker's gone.

2802
02:54:53,460 --> 02:54:56,950
A guy named George Meade
is in and Meade does what

2803
02:54:57,500 --> 02:55:01,057
McClellan did after Antietam.
He lets Lee get away, doesn't really

2804
02:55:01,140 --> 02:55:05,057
harass him, and Lincoln is beside
himself with disappointment. He

2805
02:55:05,140 --> 02:55:09,037
writes a letter to Meade, thanks him for

2806
02:55:09,120 --> 02:55:12,897
his great victory and then says,
"You've let him get away. The war is

2807
02:55:12,980 --> 02:55:16,817
gonna continue indefinitely,"
says Lincoln. Then he doesn't

2808
02:55:16,900 --> 02:55:20,237
send the letter to...
He writes it but doesn't send it to

2809
02:55:20,320 --> 02:55:24,447
Meade, but he gets another guy
to tell Meade what's in it, so he-

2810
02:55:24,530 --> 02:55:27,780
... a guy named Halleck who's
the general in chief at that point.

2811
02:55:28,720 --> 02:55:31,777
Lincoln certainly did not think Gettysburg
was the great turning point of the war.

2812
02:55:31,860 --> 02:55:33,960
He, he probably thought it should've been,

2813
02:55:34,620 --> 02:55:40,420
but it wasn't because Lee got away with
his army intact. And after the battle, Lee

2814
02:55:41,370 --> 02:55:45,510
said, "Well, you'll see." He said, "They
lost a lot too, and they're gonna be...

2815
02:55:46,630 --> 02:55:47,887
There's not gonna be another big battle."

2816
02:55:47,970 --> 02:55:52,080
He said, "They'll be as quiet
as a sucking dove-... for six months."

2817
02:55:52,490 --> 02:55:55,417
And in fact, it's 10 months before
there's another big battle in-

2818
02:55:55,500 --> 02:55:57,850
... the Eastern Theater,
till Grant gets there.

2819
02:55:58,090 --> 02:56:01,626
- Yeah, so how does Grant come from the,
to change the theater from the Western

2820
02:56:01,709 --> 02:56:02,959
Theater into the Eastern?

2821
02:56:03,050 --> 02:56:06,167
- So Gettysburg's a really important
victory for the United States.

2822
02:56:06,250 --> 02:56:07,587
- Yeah, but it's not the turning point.

2823
02:56:07,670 --> 02:56:10,675
- No, and it's not as important
as Vicksburg, because Lee gets away.

2824
02:56:10,758 --> 02:56:11,487
Grant captured an

2825
02:56:11,570 --> 02:56:15,460
entire rebel army at Vicksburg.
Pemberton's whole army surrendered,

2826
02:56:16,590 --> 02:56:19,588
and that's the second time Grant
had forced an army to surrender.

2827
02:56:19,671 --> 02:56:23,330
He forced one at Fort Donelson
back in February of 1862.

2828
02:56:24,430 --> 02:56:28,327
His victory is...
There are no equivocations about

2829
02:56:28,410 --> 02:56:32,347
it. It's a victory. The Mississippi
is now all controlled by the United

2830
02:56:32,430 --> 02:56:36,347
States Navy, but Lee got away,
so that puts a little cloud

2831
02:56:36,430 --> 02:56:37,970
over Gettysburg at the time.

2832
02:56:38,910 --> 02:56:42,447
Grant wins one more victory in the West
after this. He wins the Battle of

2833
02:56:42,530 --> 02:56:49,530
Chattanooga in late 1863. And that then
puts him in position for Lincoln to

2834
02:56:50,510 --> 02:56:53,636
decide that he not only should be
in charge of everything in the West,

2835
02:56:53,720 --> 02:56:54,247
he should be

2836
02:56:54,330 --> 02:56:58,247
general-in-chief, and that's what
brings Grant to the fore. And in March

2837
02:56:58,330 --> 02:57:02,047
'64, he's now general-in-chief
with the new rank of

2838
02:57:02,130 --> 02:57:06,047
lieutenant general on his...
He's got three stars on his shoulders

2839
02:57:06,130 --> 02:57:11,187
now instead of two. - And then that where
does that take us? That takes us to

2840
02:57:11,270 --> 02:57:16,010
'64 with the Overland Campaign.
That story plus Atlanta, Sherman's March.

2841
02:57:16,450 --> 02:57:20,630
- That sets up... Grant is now planning
for how the whole war is gonna go.

2842
02:57:20,800 --> 02:57:24,727
And he envisions five components.
The two most important are he's

2843
02:57:24,810 --> 02:57:28,747
gonna move against Lee, and his
plan is lock up with Lee, inflict

2844
02:57:28,830 --> 02:57:32,427
the greatest possible damage
on Lee, prevent Lee from sending

2845
02:57:32,510 --> 02:57:35,528
reinforcements anywhere else,
and if all goes well, Richmond would fall.

2846
02:57:35,612 --> 02:57:39,227
But he's not mainly interested in
Richmond. He's interested in Lee's army,

2847
02:57:39,310 --> 02:57:43,160
which is what Lincoln has been trying
to get his generals to be interested in

2848
02:57:43,570 --> 02:57:46,820
the whole time. Destroy Lee's army,
and of course Richmond falls.

2849
02:57:47,050 --> 02:57:50,400
- So how is he thinking about
the clash with Lee? Grant versus Lee.

2850
02:57:50,750 --> 02:57:53,910
- Grant versus Lee is just confront him.

2851
02:57:54,340 --> 02:57:56,368
And they're still near
Fredericksburg, where they,

2852
02:57:56,452 --> 02:57:57,927
on the Rappahannock River frontier,

2853
02:57:58,010 --> 02:58:01,190
engaged with him and what
they ended up with

2854
02:58:02,130 --> 02:58:05,407
was a period of six weeks
of continuous combat that

2855
02:58:05,490 --> 02:58:08,390
began with the Battle of the
Wilderness on May the 5th and

2856
02:58:08,650 --> 02:58:12,590
6th. The old pattern in the Civil
War, Lex, was you fight a battle,

2857
02:58:12,690 --> 02:58:16,540
one side retreats. It might be weeks,
might be months before you fight again.

2858
02:58:16,730 --> 02:58:20,547
What happened here is Lee and Grant fought
the Battle of the Wilderness. 12,000

2859
02:58:20,630 --> 02:58:24,487
Confederate casualties, 18,000
Union 30,000 casualties at the

2860
02:58:24,570 --> 02:58:28,490
Wilderness. They march for one day.
They start another battle, Spotsylvania

2861
02:58:28,590 --> 02:58:33,440
Courthouse. 12,000 More Confederate
casualties, 18,000 more Union casualties,

2862
02:58:33,550 --> 02:58:37,187
so now you've had 60,000
casualties in two battles with no

2863
02:58:37,270 --> 02:58:41,247
interval. That continues through May. Cold

2864
02:58:41,330 --> 02:58:44,630
Harbor, they end up near Richmond
at Cold Harbor in early June.

2865
02:58:44,950 --> 02:58:48,710
Grant launches frontal assaults there.
They come to nothing. His men

2866
02:58:48,830 --> 02:58:52,627
are, many of them are butchered.
The bottom line is that in the

2867
02:58:52,710 --> 02:58:56,670
six-week campaign, Grant
suffers 65,000 casualties,

2868
02:58:56,790 --> 02:58:59,887
which is as big as Lee's whole
army had been. Lee suffers

2869
02:58:59,970 --> 02:59:03,887
35,000, which is a higher percentage
of his army than Grant lost in, or

2870
02:59:03,970 --> 02:59:07,867
about the same percentage,
actually. But it is a kind of

2871
02:59:07,950 --> 02:59:11,850
continuous campaign no one had seen
before, and it shatters both armies.

2872
02:59:12,030 --> 02:59:15,687
It eviscerates the officer
corps in both armies.

2873
02:59:15,770 --> 02:59:18,270
armies. A lot of soldiers just break down.

2874
02:59:19,190 --> 02:59:23,147
We would talk about PTSD now probably.
They just hadn't been used to something

2875
02:59:23,230 --> 02:59:23,547
like this.

2876
02:59:23,630 --> 02:59:28,570
- And this kind of continuous warfare,
that's... We can attribute that to Grant.

2877
02:59:28,970 --> 02:59:33,047
- Yes, this is... And this is where
the Grant the Butcher image comes in.

2878
02:59:33,130 --> 02:59:36,972
- But also probably,
as hard as it is to say,

2879
02:59:37,055 --> 02:59:40,347
it's an act of military genius, right?

2880
02:59:40,430 --> 02:59:44,327
- Well, it's... He's doing what he
wanted to do. He's bleeding Lee's army and

2881
02:59:44,410 --> 02:59:48,930
at the same time pushing it back
toward Richmond, and what it ends up in

2882
02:59:49,850 --> 02:59:53,157
is the siege at Petersburg, Virginia,
which is just south of Richmond

2883
02:59:53,240 --> 02:59:53,787
and controls

2884
02:59:53,870 --> 02:59:57,527
the communications into Richmond, and
it's a siege of actually Petersburg and

2885
02:59:57,610 --> 03:00:01,230
Richmond, and that is the thing that

2886
03:00:01,370 --> 03:00:04,960
Lee feared the most, and Grant had
put him in exactly that position.

2887
03:00:05,330 --> 03:00:10,660
But the perception behind the lines in
the United States is endless casualties.

2888
03:00:11,630 --> 03:00:15,447
Who's winning? We can't even tell
who's winning. We have these casualties,

2889
03:00:15,530 --> 03:00:17,700
and so Union morale drops

2890
03:00:18,590 --> 03:00:22,527
to its lowest point of the entire
war in July and August 1864. Because

2891
03:00:22,610 --> 03:00:25,207
while this is going on,
Sherman is moving against

2892
03:00:25,290 --> 03:00:29,087
Atlanta, and he is taking
his time, not fighting these

2893
03:00:29,170 --> 03:00:31,382
big battles, but he's not
capturing Atlanta either.

2894
03:00:31,465 --> 03:00:32,907
The whole summer goes by. Atlanta

2895
03:00:32,990 --> 03:00:36,799
hasn't fallen. Richmond hasn't fallen.
There's an election coming up in the fall

2896
03:00:36,883 --> 03:00:40,787
in the United States,
and Lincoln decides... The morale

2897
03:00:40,870 --> 03:00:44,790
gets so bad he calls his
cabinet together in late August

2898
03:00:45,990 --> 03:00:49,527
and makes them sign what's been called
the Blind Memorandum, and what the

2899
03:00:49,610 --> 03:00:52,650
memorandum said is,
"We're not gonna be reelected,

2900
03:00:54,050 --> 03:00:56,356
and we're gonna have to win the war
before the Democrats come in,

2901
03:00:56,440 --> 03:00:57,887
because we know they won't win the war."

2902
03:00:57,970 --> 03:01:01,657
Lincoln did not think they would win.
That's in August. And so I think

2903
03:01:01,740 --> 03:01:05,547
that United States civilian morale,
the lowest point of the war for the

2904
03:01:05,630 --> 03:01:09,487
United States is in July
and August 1864. And

2905
03:01:09,570 --> 03:01:12,857
if we'd been able to stick our microphones
in people's faces and said, "Well,

2906
03:01:12,940 --> 03:01:15,769
but what about Gettysburg?
That was the turning point of the war,"

2907
03:01:15,853 --> 03:01:17,267
they would've said, "What are you

2908
03:01:17,350 --> 03:01:22,527
talking about?" "That was a year ago.
This is now, and we're not winning, and

2909
03:01:22,610 --> 03:01:26,227
it's not worth it, and we're
just about ready." McClellan,

2910
03:01:26,310 --> 03:01:29,004
incidentally, was the Democratic
nominee for president that year,

2911
03:01:29,087 --> 03:01:30,687
so he's running against Lincoln.

2912
03:01:30,820 --> 03:01:33,570
- So first of all, if Lincoln
didn't win, do you think-

2913
03:01:34,010 --> 03:01:37,243
- Well, we know it would've been good for
the Confederates if Lincoln didn't win,

2914
03:01:37,326 --> 03:01:41,790
but just, uh... McClellan still... It's
interesting. McClellan was running kind of

2915
03:01:41,930 --> 03:01:45,367
against the Democratic platform.
What the Democratic platform called for

2916
03:01:45,450 --> 03:01:48,127
was basically negotiations,
an armistice and then

2917
03:01:48,210 --> 03:01:52,117
negotiations. And many people
believed if they ever stop fighting,

2918
03:01:52,200 --> 03:01:56,047
they're not gonna start fighting again.
And so some negotiated end to the war

2919
03:01:56,130 --> 03:01:59,447
that might even yield a confederacy.

2920
03:01:59,530 --> 03:02:03,207
McClellan, to his credit, and I hate
to give him credit, at least said that he

2921
03:02:03,290 --> 03:02:06,143
wasn't up for that. He said,
"We need to win the war,

2922
03:02:06,226 --> 03:02:08,047
and then we'll have negotiations."

2923
03:02:08,130 --> 03:02:10,011
But what's clear is...
And it would've been,

2924
03:02:10,094 --> 03:02:11,907
would've been the end of emancipation.

2925
03:02:11,990 --> 03:02:18,100
The, 'cause emancipation, what became
the 13th Amendment had passed through the

2926
03:02:18,190 --> 03:02:21,290
Senate in April of '64,
but the House voted against it.

2927
03:02:21,590 --> 03:02:24,980
That doesn't, isn't gonna
happen till early '65.

2928
03:02:25,750 --> 03:02:30,790
- How close was it that Lincoln won/lost?

2929
03:02:31,230 --> 03:02:34,550
- Well, Lincoln won.
Grant didn't reelect Lincoln, 'cause he,

2930
03:02:35,210 --> 03:02:38,219
Grant against Lee would not
reelect Lincoln. But other Grants,

2931
03:02:38,302 --> 03:02:43,063
other things that Grant, part of his
overall plan as general-in-chief,

2932
03:02:43,147 --> 03:02:44,987
Sherman captured Atlanta-

2933
03:02:45,070 --> 03:02:48,770
... in early September.
And that just changed everything.

2934
03:02:48,930 --> 03:02:49,967
- That was the real turning point.

2935
03:02:50,050 --> 03:02:53,987
- That was a huge military turning point,
and then on the heels of that, Philip

2936
03:02:54,070 --> 03:02:57,610
Sheridan won a series of crushing
victories in the Shenandoah Valley,

2937
03:02:58,230 --> 03:03:02,087
the last of which came just before
the election, and it was Sherman, and to a

2938
03:03:02,170 --> 03:03:05,967
lesser degree Sheridan,
that reelected Lincoln, and not just

2939
03:03:06,050 --> 03:03:08,347
Lincoln, but huge Republican majorities-

2940
03:03:08,430 --> 03:03:10,950
... in both the House
and the Senate in 1864.

2941
03:03:11,560 --> 03:03:15,420
- And then the thing that broke
the back of Confederacies, Sherman's

2942
03:03:15,510 --> 03:03:20,747
March, 60,000 men across Georgia
to the sea, burning the infrastructure.

2943
03:03:20,830 --> 03:03:24,970
- Yes, as he said, "I'm gonna go across
and make Georgia howl," is how he put it.

2944
03:03:25,890 --> 03:03:29,687
He added a psychological twist. What Grant

2945
03:03:29,770 --> 03:03:33,335
envisioned his doing, and Sheridan
actually did it in the Shenandoah Valley

2946
03:03:33,418 --> 03:03:37,227
before Sherman did it in Georgia,
is go into an agriculturally

2947
03:03:37,310 --> 03:03:41,840
productive area, burn the mills,
kill the livestock, destroy the crops,

2948
03:03:42,690 --> 03:03:46,207
lay waste to it so that it can't
be a logistical support of the

2949
03:03:46,290 --> 03:03:50,227
Confederacy anymore. Sheridan did it
in the Shenandoah Valley, and then Sherman

2950
03:03:50,310 --> 03:03:53,867
did it in Georgia. But Sherman said,
"But I'm also going to break them

2951
03:03:53,950 --> 03:03:57,707
psychologically." That's what he said,
that, "I'm gonna show them that my

2952
03:03:57,790 --> 03:04:00,497
army can go wherever it wants
to go, whenever it wants to go,

2953
03:04:00,581 --> 03:04:01,427
and there's nothing

2954
03:04:01,510 --> 03:04:05,710
Jefferson Davis can do about it." He said,
"When they decide that, they'll give up."

2955
03:04:05,910 --> 03:04:09,347
Didn't exactly work that way, but that's
what he-- so he marched first to

2956
03:04:09,430 --> 03:04:13,187
Savannah, and then the final campaign for

2957
03:04:13,270 --> 03:04:17,047
Sherman was up through the Carolinas.
He went up through South Carolina and into

2958
03:04:17,130 --> 03:04:21,510
North Carolina. And Grant laid siege to

2959
03:04:22,570 --> 03:04:26,450
Lee, and the siege lasted nine months,
the Siege of Petersburg in Richmond,

2960
03:04:27,210 --> 03:04:34,210
and finally Grant broke Lee's lines
on April 1st, 1865. Lee started a retreat.

2961
03:04:35,950 --> 03:04:39,767
Grant just gave him no
pause, and he ran him to

2962
03:04:39,850 --> 03:04:43,860
ground at Appomattox after about
a week, and Lee surrendered.

2963
03:04:44,600 --> 03:04:47,267
- What do we know about
the relationship between the two men?

2964
03:04:47,350 --> 03:04:49,587
- Grant and Lee? - Yeah.

2965
03:04:49,670 --> 03:04:53,069
- Well, it's really interesting.
I mean, they basically operated in totally

2966
03:04:53,152 --> 03:04:55,952
different worlds. They were
both in the war with Mexico,

2967
03:04:56,530 --> 03:05:00,320
but they weren't with each
other in Mexico, and

2968
03:05:00,790 --> 03:05:04,647
they had some awkward kinda small
talk at Appomattox before they got down

2969
03:05:04,730 --> 03:05:06,516
to business. One said he
remembered the other one,

2970
03:05:06,599 --> 03:05:10,080
the other one said he didn't remember
him at all, and it's so... And

2971
03:05:10,890 --> 03:05:15,930
it... But Grant was very generous.
He gave 25,000 rations to Lee's army,

2972
03:05:17,170 --> 03:05:20,907
and to survive. Lee began
the retreat with about 60,000

2973
03:05:20,990 --> 03:05:24,807
men, only fewer than 30,000.
His army disintegrated in a week. He only

2974
03:05:24,890 --> 03:05:30,910
surrendered 28,000 at Appomattox. They
were allowed to sign a parole and go home.

2975
03:05:31,490 --> 03:05:35,470
- But at the peak of their,
you know Grant versus Lee,

2976
03:05:36,070 --> 03:05:37,967
surely they were
thinking about each other.

2977
03:05:38,050 --> 03:05:41,767
- They were, and I've always found
this interesting. They tended to be very

2978
03:05:41,850 --> 03:05:44,660
generous toward other opponents.

2979
03:05:44,950 --> 03:05:50,280
But Grant pretended that Lee wasn't
the best opponent he ever faced.

2980
03:05:50,630 --> 03:05:54,327
And Lee pretended that Grant
wasn't the best opponent he

2981
03:05:54,410 --> 03:05:57,257
ever faced, and it's ludicrous that
they would've actually thought that.

2982
03:05:57,340 --> 03:05:59,787
They clearly found out
that that wasn't true.

2983
03:05:59,870 --> 03:06:03,067
- It's interesting when people,
when people do that. I sometimes,

2984
03:06:03,150 --> 03:06:05,790
like, wonder, how is it possible,

2985
03:06:07,410 --> 03:06:10,870
um... There's just a million
examples of this. For example,

2986
03:06:10,990 --> 03:06:15,167
Hitler just completely dismissed
America as a military force.

2987
03:06:15,250 --> 03:06:17,611
- Oh, it's noth- they're a bunch of...
Yes, they're soft.

2988
03:06:17,695 --> 03:06:18,867
They'll never do anything.

2989
03:06:18,950 --> 03:06:22,007
- I have to say, it's probably
some silly psychological

2990
03:06:22,090 --> 03:06:26,007
things. You s- you make up
your mind for some stupid reason.

2991
03:06:26,090 --> 03:06:26,967
- And then you stick to it.

2992
03:06:27,050 --> 03:06:30,907
- And you stick to it, and you almost,
like, against... I mean, with a lot

2993
03:06:30,990 --> 03:06:35,740
of great generals and leaders, you
have to be stubborn in the face of facts

2994
03:06:36,870 --> 03:06:37,703
sometimes-

2995
03:06:38,030 --> 03:06:41,320
- You do, yeah -... because, like,
all the rational people will tell you,

2996
03:06:41,403 --> 03:06:42,753
you get this with Napoleon,

2997
03:06:43,110 --> 03:06:47,047
like, "What are you doing?" Like, the
generals, the wise, smart people around

2998
03:06:47,130 --> 03:06:48,267
you will say, "Don't do this."

2999
03:06:48,350 --> 03:06:51,670
- Grant's a perfect example of that,
Lex, at Vicksburg, where he,

3000
03:06:52,790 --> 03:06:55,470
he, his problem was to get his army
on the same side of the river as

3001
03:06:55,553 --> 03:06:56,547
the Confederates, where he

3002
03:06:56,630 --> 03:07:00,387
could come against Vicksburg, and the
only way to do it was have the Union

3003
03:07:00,470 --> 03:07:03,829
Navy run p- and he said to do it.
"No, don't do it," said the Navy. "No,

3004
03:07:03,912 --> 03:07:04,617
don't. No.

3005
03:07:04,700 --> 03:07:10,327
Sherman, no. Don't..." Everybody said no,
and Grant said, "Do it." And it worked.

3006
03:07:10,410 --> 03:07:14,267
- I mean, it has to do with the,
with I guess you've criticized once or

3007
03:07:14,350 --> 03:07:16,150
twice M- this guy named McClellan.

3008
03:07:16,370 --> 03:07:17,520
- I did, once or twice.

3009
03:07:18,490 --> 03:07:22,517
- That you know, you do have to take risk.
You have to take risk in order-

3010
03:07:22,600 --> 03:07:23,367
... to win battles.

3011
03:07:23,450 --> 03:07:27,267
- And I'll finish w- I can't resist
getting one more shot. Lee is often

3012
03:07:27,350 --> 03:07:31,147
quoted as saying that McClellan was
the most talented general he ever faced.

3013
03:07:31,230 --> 03:07:32,070
- Really? Hmm.

3014
03:07:32,160 --> 03:07:35,787
- Yeah, but that's, but what he actually
said, and the quote started with his

3015
03:07:35,870 --> 03:07:39,687
nephew, Fitzhugh Lee, who wrote it
in a book after the war. Lee called

3016
03:07:39,770 --> 03:07:43,587
McClellan the most intellectual
General he ever faced.

3017
03:07:43,670 --> 03:07:47,517
And I think that is not a compliment.
I think Lee is saying, "Yeah, he's

3018
03:07:47,600 --> 03:07:51,717
an intellectual. He thinks about this, he
thinks about... He never does anything."

3019
03:07:51,800 --> 03:07:55,757
"He thinks about things." So I think it's
actually a slight, not a compliment to

3020
03:07:55,840 --> 03:07:57,180
McL- I really do.

3021
03:07:57,380 --> 03:08:01,330
Because he couldn't have possibly thought
he was the most talented one that he,

3022
03:08:01,480 --> 03:08:04,980
that he faced. - I think it's
a polite wink and nod to criticize.

3023
03:08:05,200 --> 03:08:06,300
- It's a wink and nod.

3024
03:08:07,100 --> 03:08:10,957
- Uh, all right. How does
the war end? So clearly there's

3025
03:08:11,040 --> 03:08:14,000
the turning point with Atlanta
and Sherman's March.

3026
03:08:14,240 --> 03:08:17,860
- And the election of '64 is the
that drives the dagger into... I mean,

3027
03:08:18,140 --> 03:08:19,090
there's no question

3028
03:08:19,800 --> 03:08:23,677
but that the war will be pushed to the end
because Lincoln and Grant are in charge

3029
03:08:23,760 --> 03:08:25,827
and they are not gonna
take their foot off the-

3030
03:08:25,910 --> 03:08:29,757
... the pedal. They're gonna push it.
So it's a question of time. It drags

3031
03:08:29,840 --> 03:08:31,740
on, still drags on another six months.

3032
03:08:33,000 --> 03:08:37,440
Lee surrenders on April 9th.
They lay down their arms on April 12th.

3033
03:08:38,400 --> 03:08:42,277
There are still tens of thousands
of Confederate soldiers under arms

3034
03:08:42,360 --> 03:08:45,997
in different places, but it's
a measure of how important Lee and his

3035
03:08:46,080 --> 03:08:50,600
army were that for everybody, virtually
on both sides, that's the end of the war.

3036
03:08:50,880 --> 03:08:53,564
Lee surrendered. There's no
reason to push this any farther,

3037
03:08:53,647 --> 03:08:54,737
and other surrenders came

3038
03:08:54,820 --> 03:08:58,717
pretty quickly. Jefferson Davis was one
of the few people who didn't figure

3039
03:08:58,800 --> 03:09:01,373
that out. He thought something
was still possible, but it wasn't.

3040
03:09:01,456 --> 03:09:02,577
That was the end of the war.

3041
03:09:02,660 --> 03:09:06,577
The final surrenders are over in June,
and that's it, and everybody gets

3042
03:09:06,660 --> 03:09:10,617
the same terms that Grant offered to Lee.
His friend Sherman tried to do

3043
03:09:10,700 --> 03:09:14,180
more, and they had to reign Sherman
in and say, "You can't... No.

3044
03:09:14,700 --> 03:09:17,450
You're a general, not a politician.
You can't do this."

3045
03:09:17,860 --> 03:09:21,777
- So can we talk about April 9th? I mean,
this is a really important moment of

3046
03:09:21,860 --> 03:09:27,340
what Grant did in terms of how
he treated the opposing army.

3047
03:09:27,780 --> 03:09:31,557
- As I said earlier, he treated him
the way that he knew that Lincoln

3048
03:09:31,640 --> 03:09:35,630
wanted them treated and, and it may
be that Grant thought exactly the same

3049
03:09:35,740 --> 03:09:39,300
thing. But I think this is
a measure of how Grant was a

3050
03:09:39,480 --> 03:09:43,117
very... He's a soldier who
knew his place. He has civilian

3051
03:09:43,200 --> 03:09:46,917
superiors. Other generals
didn't act that way. I know I'm

3052
03:09:47,000 --> 03:09:51,037
beating up on McClellan. He's one. Joseph
Johnston on the Confederate side is one.

3053
03:09:51,120 --> 03:09:54,470
They didn't really defer to their
civilian superiors. US Grant did,

3054
03:09:55,200 --> 03:09:59,120
and he... And this is one of those cases.
He sent the rations. He,

3055
03:09:59,340 --> 03:10:02,917
he didn't know that Confederates
supplied their own horses. If you're a

3056
03:10:03,000 --> 03:10:06,877
Confederate cavalryman, the government
didn't buy a horse for you. You had to

3057
03:10:06,960 --> 03:10:10,890
supply your horse, and if a horse
got killed, you had to buy another one

3058
03:10:11,420 --> 03:10:15,280
or they'd make you an infantryman.
When Grant found that out, he let them

3059
03:10:15,380 --> 03:10:19,357
take their horses home with them. He said
they'll need them for the planting and so

3060
03:10:19,440 --> 03:10:20,980
forth. He did everything

3061
03:10:21,960 --> 03:10:25,437
in a generous way that you could
reasonably think might happen in a

3062
03:10:25,520 --> 03:10:27,982
situation like... It's still
an unconditional surrender.

3063
03:10:28,065 --> 03:10:32,090
You are surrendering. You're going home.
You're not an army anymore. But

3064
03:10:32,920 --> 03:10:34,920
nobody's going to prisoner of war camps.

3065
03:10:35,740 --> 03:10:38,720
Nobody's doing those things. You lay
your arms down, you lay your flags down,

3066
03:10:38,803 --> 03:10:41,620
and you lay your ammunition
down, but that's it.

3067
03:10:41,880 --> 03:10:45,023
- Yeah, but there's certain symbolic
actions like this that can lay

3068
03:10:45,106 --> 03:10:47,220
the groundwork for long-term peace.

3069
03:10:47,640 --> 03:10:51,557
- Yes. He didn't demand that Lee give
him his sword. He didn't do that, none

3070
03:10:51,640 --> 03:10:54,140
of those kinds of things
that you could have done.

3071
03:10:54,310 --> 03:10:57,977
- Sorry to linger on it, but there's
certain elements of humiliation that

3072
03:10:58,060 --> 03:11:01,690
prevent long-term peace.
I have to go back to Hitler

3073
03:11:02,740 --> 03:11:05,600
and what Germany experienced
at the end of World War I.

3074
03:11:05,840 --> 03:11:08,817
- You mean Versailles, the terms
from Versailles. No question about it.

3075
03:11:08,900 --> 03:11:12,817
- And some of it is economic,
some of it is geopolitics, but some of it

3076
03:11:12,900 --> 03:11:15,917
is just on a basic
human level humiliation.

3077
03:11:16,000 --> 03:11:19,797
And people are just not good
with humiliation. They remember.

3078
03:11:19,880 --> 03:11:23,157
- No, and they can turn that around
into something you don't want it to

3079
03:11:23,240 --> 03:11:27,117
be to get back national pride.
But Lincoln's

3080
03:11:27,200 --> 03:11:31,100
bottom line was the point
is to put the nation back together

3081
03:11:31,260 --> 03:11:34,857
and you... The good way to start that is
not by imprisoning tens of thousands of

3082
03:11:34,940 --> 03:11:37,750
Confederate soldiers. That's not
the way to do it. Send them home.

3083
03:11:37,833 --> 03:11:42,297
Make them accept the terms, but then
send them home and leave them alone. The

3084
03:11:42,380 --> 03:11:46,120
president wanted to go after Lincoln's
death. Andrew Johnson wanted to go

3085
03:11:46,240 --> 03:11:50,000
after Lee, and Grant said,
"I'll resign if you do..." 'Cause I

3086
03:11:50,820 --> 03:11:54,077
... His term... We extended the terms.
He's abiding by the terms.

3087
03:11:54,160 --> 03:11:55,760
You can't change the rules here.

3088
03:11:55,880 --> 03:11:59,134
- But by the way, like it should be
said, is that that's not easy to do.

3089
03:11:59,217 --> 03:12:02,540
You have just fought an extremely
bloody battle. There's hatred.

3090
03:12:02,760 --> 03:12:06,557
- There were lots of people who wanted
Davis to swing and Lee to swing. "Kill

3091
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:10,317
them. Execute the rebels. They're rebels
and traitors who almost destroyed the

3092
03:12:10,400 --> 03:12:13,820
nation. Why are you
being so easy on them?"

3093
03:12:13,980 --> 03:12:17,777
Thaddeus Stevens was on board that train.
Lots of radical Republicans

3094
03:12:17,860 --> 03:12:20,425
were. "You need to punish them for what...
You haven't punished them enough.

3095
03:12:20,509 --> 03:12:22,459
You're not punished them. Yes, you took

3096
03:12:23,340 --> 03:12:25,295
slavery away from them,
but that's not enough.

3097
03:12:25,379 --> 03:12:27,197
They should be punished more for what they

3098
03:12:27,280 --> 03:12:31,900
did." "Confiscate their lands.
Take their wealth away from them."

3099
03:12:32,880 --> 03:12:35,900
- So what happened next
in terms of reconciliation?

3100
03:12:36,160 --> 03:12:39,560
- Well, Lincoln got assassinated
just a few days after-

3101
03:12:39,760 --> 03:12:41,417
... Lee's troops laid down their arms.

3102
03:12:41,500 --> 03:12:45,906
- Can you talk to the assassination?
He was shot five days after the surrender,

3103
03:12:45,989 --> 03:12:50,220
right? - Yes, he was. - So who was Booth?
Who was John Wilkes Booth?

3104
03:12:51,240 --> 03:12:54,800
Why did he assassinate Lincoln,
and what impact did that have?

3105
03:12:54,890 --> 03:12:56,720
- Well, he was the youngest

3106
03:12:57,540 --> 03:13:01,440
of the most famous acting family
in the United States. Junius Brutus

3107
03:13:01,620 --> 03:13:05,250
Booth and Edwin Booth, his father
and older brother, were very famous

3108
03:13:05,400 --> 03:13:08,624
actors, and he was a very successful
actor, too, John Wilkes Booth was.

3109
03:13:08,708 --> 03:13:12,400
He was good at jumping around
the stage, and he was very athletic.

3110
03:13:12,980 --> 03:13:17,017
Um, and an ardent pro-Confederate.

3111
03:13:17,100 --> 03:13:21,680
- That's the more important-... aspect -
Not ardent, not ardent enough to put on a

3112
03:13:21,780 --> 03:13:26,030
uniform for the Confederacy,
but ardent enough to, you know-

3113
03:13:26,140 --> 03:13:30,120
... argue for the Confederacy.
He claims... I mean, not claims. He,

3114
03:13:30,280 --> 03:13:34,180
he heard Lincoln make a statement about
maybe Black soldiers getting the vote,

3115
03:13:34,480 --> 03:13:38,430
and he said that was it for him, he...
that somebody needed to kill the tyrant.

3116
03:13:39,000 --> 03:13:41,477
This is very...
This is after Lee had surrendered.

3117
03:13:41,560 --> 03:13:44,440
- So he was on the Union side.

3118
03:13:44,580 --> 03:13:48,760
- Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, he- -
But Lincoln was a tyrant in his eyes.

3119
03:13:48,960 --> 03:13:52,617
- Lincoln was a tyrant because of his
sta- because of his treatment of the white

3120
03:13:52,700 --> 03:13:57,757
South. And he had plotted earlier
to kidnap Lincoln and hold him for

3121
03:13:57,840 --> 03:14:01,737
ransom, and that didn't work out.
So then he got this little group of

3122
03:14:01,820 --> 03:14:05,550
losers around him to help.
I mean, real misfits. Their,

3123
03:14:05,660 --> 03:14:09,580
their plan was to kill Seward,
Andrew Johnson. They were gonna

3124
03:14:10,000 --> 03:14:12,780
cut off the top leadership
of the United States.

3125
03:14:12,900 --> 03:14:15,386
- Yep. - Kill the vice, kill
the president, kill the vice president,

3126
03:14:15,469 --> 03:14:18,097
kill the secretary of state.
That's what they wanted to do.

3127
03:14:18,180 --> 03:14:20,497
- On the Johnson side, they chickened out.

3128
03:14:20,580 --> 03:14:23,964
- That guy chickened out. A guy named
Lewis Powell was sent to kill Seward.

3129
03:14:24,048 --> 03:14:27,580
Seward had been in an accident
and had his neck in a big brace,

3130
03:14:28,520 --> 03:14:32,330
and he slashed at Seward,
huge scars on the side of his face,

3131
03:14:32,420 --> 03:14:36,237
but the knife hit the brace and didn't
kill Seward. So Seward was disfigured. His

3132
03:14:36,320 --> 03:14:37,153
son was wounded.

3133
03:14:38,110 --> 03:14:42,360
The guy who was supposed to kill Johnson
chickened out, and Booth killed Lincoln.

3134
03:14:42,720 --> 03:14:46,517
And there was a manhunt for Lincoln,
or for Booth. It took a while, and he

3135
03:14:46,600 --> 03:14:50,120
was shot in a barn rather
than captured and put on trial.

3136
03:14:51,060 --> 03:14:54,877
But four of the conspirators were
put on trial, including one woman, a

3137
03:14:54,960 --> 03:14:58,071
woman named Mary Surratt, who ran a
boarding house where some of them stayed,

3138
03:14:58,155 --> 03:15:04,580
and they were all hanged at Old Capitol
Prison. And the combination of th-

3139
03:15:04,700 --> 03:15:08,377
that hanging, they were tried
by a military commission and

3140
03:15:08,460 --> 03:15:12,437
hanged, but they also put on trial
and hanged the commandant of

3141
03:15:12,520 --> 03:15:16,377
Andersonville Prison, which was the most
infamous of the Confederate prison of war

3142
03:15:16,460 --> 03:15:20,217
camps. They hanged him as well.
And it seemed that

3143
03:15:20,300 --> 03:15:24,157
those hangings sort of took
the edge, the sort of we

3144
03:15:24,240 --> 03:15:28,117
need some retribution edge off
attitudes in the North. I think

3145
03:15:28,200 --> 03:15:32,810
those things helped offset Lincoln's
assassination in a sort of odd way

3146
03:15:33,700 --> 03:15:37,480
because the temperature
went down after that.

3147
03:15:37,960 --> 03:15:40,490
- You talk about,
as maybe a bit of an aside,

3148
03:15:42,080 --> 03:15:47,657
But that we Americans like to spin up
conspiracy theories about assassinations-

3149
03:15:47,740 --> 03:15:51,803
- We do -... of our presidents.
So that's certainly very true,

3150
03:15:51,887 --> 03:15:55,020
maybe truer than most about
Lincoln's assassination.

3151
03:15:55,700 --> 03:15:59,497
- There was a long literature actually.
It began with a chemist named

3152
03:15:59,580 --> 03:16:05,097
Otto Eisenschiml many, many decades ago
that implicated Secretary of War Stanton-

3153
03:16:05,180 --> 03:16:08,840
... and blamed the radicals were
unhappy with Lincoln for not being

3154
03:16:09,000 --> 03:16:12,860
harsher on the former Confederates,
and what they wanted to do was

3155
03:16:13,120 --> 03:16:16,653
get him out of the way. They thought they
could manipulate Andrew Johnson if they

3156
03:16:16,736 --> 03:16:20,800
got Andrew Johnson in charge. So they,

3157
03:16:21,040 --> 03:16:24,300
then they would pose these questions.
How come no one was guarding Lincoln

3158
03:16:24,383 --> 03:16:24,837
that night?

3159
03:16:24,920 --> 03:16:28,537
How come the only bridge over the Potomac
that wasn't guarded is the one that Booth

3160
03:16:28,620 --> 03:16:30,540
escaped across? All of these.

3161
03:16:31,720 --> 03:16:35,617
How come Grant didn't go to the play
with Lincoln? The Lincolns asked them.

3162
03:16:35,700 --> 03:16:38,306
Well, they didn't 'cause Mrs.
Lincoln didn't like... I mean, the, Mrs.

3163
03:16:38,389 --> 03:16:39,597
Grant didn't like Mrs. Lincoln.

3164
03:16:39,680 --> 03:16:41,900
I mean, you, there are
answers to all the questions.

3165
03:16:41,983 --> 03:16:43,497
But they put all these together,

3166
03:16:43,580 --> 03:16:47,330
added two and two and got
five, and said that it was,

3167
03:16:47,620 --> 03:16:51,437
it was a plot on the part of the radical
wing of the Republican Party to get rid of

3168
03:16:51,520 --> 03:16:54,770
Lincoln 'cause Lincoln didn't
wanna be harsh enough on the South.

3169
03:16:55,560 --> 03:16:58,980
- Yeah, it's difficult
to believe that dramatic,

3170
03:16:59,660 --> 03:17:01,990
sometimes catastrophic things happen for

3171
03:17:02,120 --> 03:17:06,620
seemingly... That, that like
the random, as you said, loser

3172
03:17:07,520 --> 03:17:11,417
- It's not satisfying. You want a more
satisfying, and that is a big conspiracy

3173
03:17:11,500 --> 03:17:15,357
is better. There are all these forces at
work to get rid of Lincoln, not just that

3174
03:17:15,440 --> 03:17:18,997
the one guy assigned to guard
Lincoln, there's no Secret Service

3175
03:17:19,080 --> 03:17:22,640
then, went across
the street to get a drink.

3176
03:17:22,780 --> 03:17:26,597
And Booth had played in that theater many
times. He knew exactly the layout. He'd

3177
03:17:26,680 --> 03:17:30,237
come in earlier. He'd arrange... I mean,
it, it just, that's the way it worked out.

3178
03:17:30,320 --> 03:17:33,162
- And I have to say, it,
it's kinda interesting.

3179
03:17:33,246 --> 03:17:35,440
I have to be honest with my own mind

3180
03:17:36,400 --> 03:17:39,100
that, like, I love a good
conspiracy. My brain does.

3181
03:17:39,520 --> 03:17:40,777
- Every, almost everybody does.

3182
03:17:40,860 --> 03:17:44,840
- I think it's, what is it?
It, it's maybe depressing or

3183
03:17:44,940 --> 03:17:50,111
heartbreaking to know that so much
destruction can be caused by random

3184
03:17:50,195 --> 03:17:51,028
events.

3185
03:17:52,120 --> 03:17:55,800
You want there to be a larger

3186
03:17:58,240 --> 03:18:05,057
system at play that it makes
you feel like there's a meaning

3187
03:18:05,140 --> 03:18:11,150
to this whole thing as opposed to the
tides of history can turn on a stupid

3188
03:18:11,234 --> 03:18:16,087
actor shooting one of the greatest, if
not the greatest president in the history

3189
03:18:16,170 --> 03:18:19,297
- That's correct.
Killing him, jumping out of

3190
03:18:19,380 --> 03:18:23,240
the presidential box, breaking
his leg when he hit the stage,

3191
03:18:23,440 --> 03:18:25,900
limping off, and getting away. Yep.

3192
03:18:26,060 --> 03:18:29,960
- Over 700,000 people dead, these epic

3193
03:18:30,080 --> 03:18:34,920
battles, all of that. Lincoln
survives all of it, and then there's

3194
03:18:36,180 --> 03:18:38,318
- When they had the grand
review in Washington,

3195
03:18:38,401 --> 03:18:40,097
when Sherman's armies and the Army of

3196
03:18:40,180 --> 03:18:43,557
the Potomac marched over
two days, this amazing

3197
03:18:43,640 --> 03:18:46,980
display of the troops that had won
the war, and troops who had run the war,

3198
03:18:47,064 --> 03:18:51,457
one of the most common comments was,
"Lincoln's not here. Of all people who

3199
03:18:51,540 --> 03:18:53,441
should've been here,
Lincoln should've been here,

3200
03:18:53,524 --> 03:18:54,837
and he doesn't get to watch this.

3201
03:18:54,920 --> 03:18:57,320
He's not in the presidential
box watching this."

3202
03:18:58,180 --> 03:19:00,030
And the soldiers talked about it too.

3203
03:19:00,880 --> 03:19:04,780
- It's heartbreaking, really, especially
I would've loved to see his evolution

3204
03:19:05,160 --> 03:19:12,160
as a leader, as a human being, and the
words he may have, he may have found

3205
03:19:14,280 --> 03:19:18,400
to direct us as a country, you know,
in the, in the Reconstruction.

3206
03:19:18,620 --> 03:19:22,077
- Yep. Would've been different.
We can't tell how different.

3207
03:19:22,160 --> 03:19:26,440
But it would've been different, and I
think it would've worked more smoothly.

3208
03:19:27,220 --> 03:19:31,500
- What was Reconstruction?
How rocky was it?

3209
03:19:32,240 --> 03:19:36,117
- The white South liked to talk about the
occupation of the South and how they were

3210
03:19:36,200 --> 03:19:39,497
under the boot heel. There
was never an occupation of the former

3211
03:19:39,580 --> 03:19:43,357
Confederacy 'cause there never were
enough troops available to do it. The

3212
03:19:43,440 --> 03:19:45,690
most that were ever
in the former Confederacy

3213
03:19:46,610 --> 03:19:50,230
Which is three quarters of a
million square miles in size, was

3214
03:19:50,410 --> 03:19:53,567
30,000 men, and that was
for a very short period. By

3215
03:19:53,650 --> 03:19:57,527
1870, there were only about
10,000 men left. And the reason

3216
03:19:57,610 --> 03:20:01,307
there wasn't an occupation is because
the Northern population wasn't

3217
03:20:01,390 --> 03:20:05,207
willing to either pay for it
or keep men in uniform long

3218
03:20:05,290 --> 03:20:08,422
enough to make the White South do
something that they didn't really care

3219
03:20:08,505 --> 03:20:11,410
about, which was give full equal rights

3220
03:20:12,250 --> 03:20:15,967
to formerly enslaved Black people.
The White North just wasn't, they weren't

3221
03:20:16,050 --> 03:20:18,810
willing to do that. They were willing,

3222
03:20:20,010 --> 03:20:22,950
largely because of Andrew
Johnson's intransigence

3223
03:20:23,770 --> 03:20:28,270
in the summer of 1865 when he started to
act like the South hadn't even quite lost,

3224
03:20:29,250 --> 03:20:32,827
they were willing to push far enough
to get the 14th Amendment and the

3225
03:20:32,910 --> 03:20:36,730
15th Amendment, and that to me is sort
of miraculous considering what the

3226
03:20:36,830 --> 03:20:40,767
attitudes among white people were in the
United States. You got the vote given to

3227
03:20:40,850 --> 03:20:44,530
African American men, and you
got the 14th Amendment. So it's,

3228
03:20:44,650 --> 03:20:48,517
that's kind of amazing.
And those don't go away. They're

3229
03:20:48,600 --> 03:20:52,207
still there on the books to be
interpreted correctly down the line

3230
03:20:52,290 --> 03:20:55,907
somewhere, even though
Jim Crow is a long and ugly

3231
03:20:55,990 --> 03:20:59,467
episode of what comes.
I mean the Confederates just, they weren't

3232
03:20:59,550 --> 03:21:03,307
confused about being defeated.
They were crushed, and

3233
03:21:03,390 --> 03:21:06,907
so they vastly scaled back what
they wanted. They had wanted a

3234
03:21:06,990 --> 03:21:10,867
slave-holding republic.
They scaled back for just having white

3235
03:21:10,950 --> 03:21:14,827
supremacy and the North,
and that's what happened. You

3236
03:21:14,910 --> 03:21:18,560
ended up with white supremacy
and Jim Crow intact--

3237
03:21:18,690 --> 03:21:21,690
... which is a lot different
than keeping slavery intact.

3238
03:21:22,070 --> 03:21:27,893
- And that set off the whole process
of the Civil Rights Movement that lasted

3239
03:21:27,976 --> 03:21:28,810
decades.

3240
03:21:29,250 --> 03:21:33,910
- I mean, Jim Crow is the clearest
expression of the White South's

3241
03:21:34,650 --> 03:21:38,570
reaction to defeat at Appomattox.
"Okay, what can

3242
03:21:38,690 --> 03:21:41,330
we get out of this?
We can't get what we wanted.

3243
03:21:42,170 --> 03:21:46,070
This is the next best thing, and that's
what we'll get. We'll get Jim Crow."

3244
03:21:47,350 --> 03:21:51,050
- You know, when you walk the ground
of some of these battles, Gettysburg,

3245
03:21:51,470 --> 03:21:54,520
is there something you can only
experience when you're there?

3246
03:21:54,970 --> 03:21:58,587
- In my experience, you cannot replicate
in a classroom what you can do at a

3247
03:21:58,670 --> 03:22:00,990
historic site, I mean
a really historic site.

3248
03:22:01,790 --> 03:22:05,547
You can... You get people to a place
like that, I've given untold

3249
03:22:05,630 --> 03:22:08,350
tours on battlefields
and other historic places.

3250
03:22:09,230 --> 03:22:13,147
You can talk about so much more than
just what you can s- First of all, you can

3251
03:22:13,230 --> 03:22:16,415
you can understand what happened on the
battlefield better than reading about it

3252
03:22:16,499 --> 03:22:19,499
or looking at maps 'cause
the terrain makes it much clearer.

3253
03:22:19,720 --> 03:22:23,647
But you can also talk about, okay,
what are the men like in the armies who

3254
03:22:23,730 --> 03:22:27,060
are here? Why are they in the ser- A lot
of the things we've talked about today,

3255
03:22:27,143 --> 03:22:31,250
what's the status of the war now? What are
the political situations behind the lines?

3256
03:22:31,333 --> 03:22:35,150
What difference will this battle make?
What will happen if the

3257
03:22:35,290 --> 03:22:38,967
Federals prevail or if
the Confederates prevail? Or you can

3258
03:22:39,050 --> 03:22:42,607
use, at a place like Gettysburg,
the memorial landscape as a

3259
03:22:42,690 --> 03:22:46,327
wonderful way to talk about memory from
the war. Look at the inscriptions on the

3260
03:22:46,410 --> 03:22:48,746
monuments. What was important
when they put these up?

3261
03:22:48,829 --> 03:22:50,429
And the later monuments, it's...

3262
03:22:51,370 --> 03:22:58,050
The opportunities for a teacher on one
of these sites are just almost unlimited.

3263
03:22:58,570 --> 03:23:02,147
- And I don't want to be too woo-woo,
but I also believe from some of the

3264
03:23:02,230 --> 03:23:06,547
experience I've had that the land has
a kind of memory. I don't know what it is.

3265
03:23:06,630 --> 03:23:10,147
- They have a speech in the
cemetery at Gettysburg on the

3266
03:23:10,230 --> 03:23:14,167
anniversary of Lincoln's Gettysburg
Address every year, and I was asked to do

3267
03:23:14,250 --> 03:23:18,080
that a few years ago,
and it was just... It was amazing

3268
03:23:18,310 --> 03:23:21,260
to me. I mean, there have been
very few things in my career

3269
03:23:21,910 --> 03:23:25,847
that are like that, and we want...
We talked, we stopped in

3270
03:23:25,930 --> 03:23:29,347
different parts of the cem- There were a
thousand people there. It was an extremely

3271
03:23:29,430 --> 03:23:35,987
cold, windy November 19th, and it
was just... Talk about feeling the ghosts

3272
03:23:36,070 --> 03:23:39,947
of the past. It was really something
that I've only felt a few times

3273
03:23:40,030 --> 03:23:43,070
in my life. It was really
interesting, really interesting.

3274
03:23:44,010 --> 03:23:47,967
- You've mentioned the Lost Cause a few
times. What was the Lost Cause? Who

3275
03:23:48,050 --> 03:23:49,787
created it, and what did it claim?

3276
03:23:49,870 --> 03:23:53,767
- The Lost Cause is the
Confederate memory stream of

3277
03:23:53,850 --> 03:23:57,667
the war, and let me just say very,
very briefly, I think there are four main

3278
03:23:57,750 --> 03:24:01,407
ways the generation that experienced
the war remembered it. The one

3279
03:24:01,490 --> 03:24:05,467
remembered by the most people would be
the majority of white Northerners is what

3280
03:24:05,550 --> 03:24:08,592
I call the Union Cause and that the
greatest outcome of the war was putting

3281
03:24:08,675 --> 03:24:09,227
the nation back

3282
03:24:09,310 --> 03:24:13,247
together. It's also good that slavery
was killed. That's important, but

3283
03:24:13,330 --> 03:24:17,247
the most important thing was putting
the nation back together. The Emancipation

3284
03:24:17,330 --> 03:24:20,891
Cause memory of the war is, yes, it's
a good thing that the Union was saved,

3285
03:24:20,974 --> 03:24:24,947
but the most important thing is you killed
slavery. You got rid of this monstrous

3286
03:24:25,030 --> 03:24:27,767
institution that had mocked
that language in the founding

3287
03:24:27,850 --> 03:24:32,010
documents. So those are both
the winners' versions of the war.

3288
03:24:32,970 --> 03:24:35,641
The Confederate version,
the Confederates are in a tough spot.

3289
03:24:35,724 --> 03:24:36,924
How do we make something

3290
03:24:37,190 --> 03:24:42,510
palatable out of this catastrophic
decision we made in 1861?

3291
03:24:43,390 --> 03:24:46,406
We'll do this to save slavery,
and four years later, slavery's dead,

3292
03:24:46,490 --> 03:24:47,267
and a third of all

3293
03:24:47,350 --> 03:24:52,130
our white military-age boys are dead.
So here's what we're gonna do.

3294
03:24:53,070 --> 03:24:56,247
First of all, it wasn't about slavery.
Let's pretend it wasn't about slavery.

3295
03:24:56,330 --> 03:24:59,427
It was about high constitutional
principles. It was about states' rights-

3296
03:24:59,510 --> 03:25:02,427
- States' rights -... as opposed
to central authority oppressing people.

3297
03:25:02,510 --> 03:25:03,567
- Right, right, right.

3298
03:25:03,650 --> 03:25:07,407
- And second, we never could have won.
It was a hopeless fight

3299
03:25:07,490 --> 03:25:10,730
against long odds, and so
it was a gallant effort in,

3300
03:25:11,970 --> 03:25:15,887
in pursuit of constitutional rights.
Okay, that gets us off the

3301
03:25:15,970 --> 03:25:19,747
hook there. And who are we gonna look to?
Should we talk about Jefferson Davis?

3302
03:25:19,830 --> 03:25:22,641
No, we didn't even like him during
the war. I know who we'll talk about.

3303
03:25:22,725 --> 03:25:23,767
Let's talk about Robert E.

3304
03:25:23,850 --> 03:25:27,767
Lee. He won victories against
the odds. So these are kind

3305
03:25:27,850 --> 03:25:31,587
of the main tenets of the Lost Cause. It
wasn't about slavery. We never could have

3306
03:25:31,670 --> 03:25:35,587
won. There's no loss of honor in losing a
battle you never could have won, but that

3307
03:25:35,670 --> 03:25:37,598
you waged for high
constitutional principle.

3308
03:25:37,681 --> 03:25:39,467
And let's talk about Lee 'cause we don't

3309
03:25:39,550 --> 03:25:42,777
wanna talk about Jefferson Davis, and
there's almost no one else to talk about

3310
03:25:42,861 --> 03:25:43,347
except maybe

3311
03:25:43,430 --> 03:25:47,130
Stonewall Jackson. Those will be
our two boys that we talk about the most.

3312
03:25:47,410 --> 03:25:48,790
And that is basically

3313
03:25:49,650 --> 03:25:52,904
The short form of the Lost Cause.
The fourth way that people remembered,

3314
03:25:52,987 --> 03:25:56,737
and this came a little bit later,
was the reconciliation cause where you...

3315
03:25:57,170 --> 03:26:00,270
This is kind of white Northerners
and white Southerners agreeing not to talk

3316
03:26:00,354 --> 03:26:00,907
about slavery.

3317
03:26:00,990 --> 03:26:04,730
Don't talk about emancipation. Let's
talk about shared American virtues of

3318
03:26:04,830 --> 03:26:06,670
courage and so forth.

3319
03:26:07,350 --> 03:26:11,107
- So some of that still persists
with us today. We look at the

3320
03:26:11,190 --> 03:26:16,630
Confederate flag. So some historians argue
for the long, quote, "long Civil War."

3321
03:26:16,730 --> 03:26:20,380
- Sure, and it's really long. It's
the Civil War that never ends kind of,

3322
03:26:20,770 --> 03:26:24,607
and I certainly think that there
are ramifications from the Civil

3323
03:26:24,690 --> 03:26:27,108
War that have never ended.
But I think the Civil War ended,

3324
03:26:27,191 --> 03:26:28,587
and I think it ended in the early

3325
03:26:28,670 --> 03:26:32,490
summer of 1865 with the destruction
of the Confederate government,

3326
03:26:33,090 --> 03:26:36,850
the absolute dissolution of all
the Confederate military forces.

3327
03:26:37,370 --> 03:26:40,792
I think that is the end of the Civil War.
People at the time thought it was,

3328
03:26:40,875 --> 03:26:45,330
too. What comes afterward, the long
coda, Reconstruction is a 12-year

3329
03:26:45,430 --> 03:26:49,227
coda to a four-year war that works
out some of the difficulties of

3330
03:26:49,310 --> 03:26:51,560
how you put the nation back together.

3331
03:26:52,790 --> 03:26:56,327
And then beyond that, you have these
different memory streams that have

3332
03:26:56,410 --> 03:26:59,747
been contending with one another
that still... Some of which still

3333
03:26:59,830 --> 03:27:03,407
reverberate today, and including
what are you gonna do with the

3334
03:27:03,490 --> 03:27:06,594
Confederate flag, which most of...
There are a lot of nitwits around.

3335
03:27:06,677 --> 03:27:10,207
They don't even know what
the Confederate flag was. They fly a

3336
03:27:10,290 --> 03:27:13,970
rectangular version of the St.
Andrew's cross.

3337
03:27:14,290 --> 03:27:18,107
That is not the Confederate flag.
They call it the Confederate flag.

3338
03:27:18,190 --> 03:27:21,319
The Confederate flag that had a St.
Andrew's cross wasn't a rectangle,

3339
03:27:21,403 --> 03:27:25,610
it was a square, and the actual
Confederate flag had three big

3340
03:27:25,750 --> 03:27:29,810
bars and then stars up in... It looks
kind of like the United States flag.

3341
03:27:30,750 --> 03:27:34,627
They don't even know that, and they
go around flying it everywhere. It's a

3342
03:27:34,710 --> 03:27:38,347
symbol and pretend that it
represents all kinds of things. The

3343
03:27:38,430 --> 03:27:42,290
Confederate flag cannot be divorced
from all the times, that version of it,

3344
03:27:42,390 --> 03:27:45,707
the St. Andrew's cross version.
Every Ku Klux Klan group flew it.

3345
03:27:45,790 --> 03:27:48,470
Every... It's...
You just can't sanitize it. And

3346
03:27:49,370 --> 03:27:52,687
I mean, I saw Confederate flags in Britain

3347
03:27:52,770 --> 03:27:58,107
and Ireland. I mean, it's become a sort
of up yours symbol I think in some places-

3348
03:27:58,190 --> 03:28:01,807
... of just sort of rebellion,
not necessarily-... tethered specifically-

3349
03:28:01,890 --> 03:28:05,357
- Rebellion against inst- institutions
-... against authority and institutions-

3350
03:28:05,440 --> 03:28:09,347
... and the ruling class and the... But
that's... But here it has a very specific

3351
03:28:09,430 --> 03:28:13,180
meaning, and you just can't separate it.
It's... People should quit trying.

3352
03:28:13,690 --> 03:28:19,370
- So you taught at UVA and lived
through Charlottesville in 2017.

3353
03:28:20,330 --> 03:28:24,250
Can you tell me what Charlottesville was?
What did it mean?

3354
03:28:25,230 --> 03:28:30,890
- It's really interesting because
the day just before that, I did a long

3355
03:28:31,830 --> 03:28:35,510
interview with Katie Couric,
who was working on a s-

3356
03:28:35,970 --> 03:28:38,497
on a documentary about
Confederate monuments.

3357
03:28:38,580 --> 03:28:42,407
And she and I spent two hours
talking, walking around the

3358
03:28:42,490 --> 03:28:46,187
UVA campus, talking about the Confederate
monuments were there. She was a

3359
03:28:46,270 --> 03:28:49,862
student at UVA. She said, "I didn't even
know these were here." I said, "Well,

3360
03:28:49,946 --> 03:28:51,267
most people don't know they're here.

3361
03:28:51,350 --> 03:28:55,147
They're not aware of this,
of this part of the landscape." We had

3362
03:28:55,230 --> 03:28:59,027
no idea. Her film crew went out
the next day and filmed what was

3363
03:28:59,110 --> 03:29:02,830
going on when they actually
had the violence and the

3364
03:29:02,930 --> 03:29:05,626
crowd at the Lee statue,
which was downtown.

3365
03:29:05,710 --> 03:29:08,110
I didn't go down to watch any of that.

3366
03:29:08,810 --> 03:29:13,911
- What's your view on Confederate
monuments? You know,

3367
03:29:13,994 --> 03:29:19,930
the monuments that capture these periods,
these complicated periods of our history.

3368
03:29:20,470 --> 03:29:24,327
- Well, I have complicated views,
but my main vi- But my, my

3369
03:29:24,410 --> 03:29:26,960
first reaction to that is they're
not all the same. They've all...

3370
03:29:27,043 --> 03:29:32,150
They're treated as if they're all exactly
the same, and they're not. There's some...

3371
03:29:32,490 --> 03:29:36,330
There are the Silent
Sam mo- which was on the

3372
03:29:36,850 --> 03:29:40,687
campus at UNC for years.
It had... Some of the rhetoric

3373
03:29:40,770 --> 03:29:44,310
when they dedicated that is
really horrific. It's horrible

3374
03:29:44,430 --> 03:29:46,962
rhetoric, and I can understand why
that needed to go. There's the...

3375
03:29:47,045 --> 03:29:48,187
what was called the Battle of

3376
03:29:48,270 --> 03:29:53,587
Liberty Place monument in New
Orleans that was a white supremacist

3377
03:29:53,670 --> 03:29:56,130
monument very definitely that.

3378
03:29:57,210 --> 03:30:01,067
I think that local places
should decide these. Wherever the

3379
03:30:01,150 --> 03:30:03,519
monument is, I think that's who
should decide, if the local...

3380
03:30:03,603 --> 03:30:08,407
And I think there should be a process
how they decide it. Let people have a

3381
03:30:08,490 --> 03:30:10,961
public hearing. But they did
that in Charlottesville actually,

3382
03:30:11,045 --> 03:30:11,947
had a public hearing.

3383
03:30:12,030 --> 03:30:15,930
I went and talked at it. Lots of other
scholars and local people talked at it,

3384
03:30:16,830 --> 03:30:20,380
and then they had a commission that
they had set up, and the commission

3385
03:30:20,870 --> 03:30:27,567
voted to keep the monuments in place
but re-examine them with text that put

3386
03:30:27,650 --> 03:30:31,327
them in context and then put
up monuments, new monuments to

3387
03:30:31,410 --> 03:30:33,530
previously ignored groups.

3388
03:30:35,790 --> 03:30:39,667
The city council then came in and overrode
that and decided they took them all down

3389
03:30:39,750 --> 03:30:42,693
in Charlottesville. They also took
down the Lewis & Clark monument,

3390
03:30:42,777 --> 03:30:47,427
and there's a Geo- They took down all the
monuments that had been put up. I think

3391
03:30:47,510 --> 03:30:52,013
many of the Confederate monuments, the
kind of ones on courthouse lawns and so

3392
03:30:52,096 --> 03:30:52,929
forth

3393
03:30:53,910 --> 03:30:57,407
that were put up by the Confederate
generation, that is the veterans

3394
03:30:57,490 --> 03:31:00,890
themselves and the women who were
alive during the war, tend to be

3395
03:31:01,030 --> 03:31:04,947
monuments to the common soldiers,
that just kind of lost generation

3396
03:31:05,030 --> 03:31:11,140
of young men. The later
wave of monuments that came

3397
03:31:11,930 --> 03:31:13,953
are... were put up by other
groups that were not...

3398
03:31:14,037 --> 03:31:15,727
They're not really Confederate monuments.

3399
03:31:15,810 --> 03:31:18,691
They're put up by... The ones
that were put up in the '20s and '30s.

3400
03:31:18,774 --> 03:31:19,667
A third wave were put

3401
03:31:19,750 --> 03:31:23,287
up in reaction to the civil rights
activities in the '50s and early

3402
03:31:23,370 --> 03:31:26,947
'60s, and then a fourth
wave went up after the movie

3403
03:31:27,030 --> 03:31:30,847
Gettysburg and Ken Burns' series.
But they're complicated, and I see them

3404
03:31:30,930 --> 03:31:31,840
as historical...

3405
03:31:33,130 --> 03:31:34,837
And I understand
the arguments on both sides.

3406
03:31:34,920 --> 03:31:36,827
I understand people who
just say they're hateful.

3407
03:31:36,910 --> 03:31:39,634
They bring up hateful remembrances.
We should get rid of all of them,

3408
03:31:39,718 --> 03:31:40,618
every one of them.

3409
03:31:41,040 --> 03:31:44,607
I used them as teaching tools in
Charlottesville for years with groups of

3410
03:31:44,690 --> 03:31:48,090
teachers and students. There were
five monuments in Charlottesville,

3411
03:31:49,010 --> 03:31:52,627
Two that were put up
by veterans—two that were put up by

3412
03:31:52,710 --> 03:31:57,230
groups later, the Lee and Jackson statues
were those, and then there were two

3413
03:31:58,080 --> 03:32:01,657
bronze plates on the side
of the rotunda that just listed

3414
03:32:01,740 --> 03:32:05,577
UVA graduates who died in Confederate
service. Had about 500 names on them.

3415
03:32:05,660 --> 03:32:09,237
Those were all of the Confederate
statues there, and it— I used

3416
03:32:09,320 --> 03:32:13,177
them to talk about different
strains of memory and used

3417
03:32:13,260 --> 03:32:17,097
recon- They're— The Lee, the main
tenor of the Lee statue when it

3418
03:32:17,180 --> 03:32:21,140
went up was this reconciliationist Lee.
He, Lee

3419
03:32:21,240 --> 03:32:24,246
wanted the nation back together.
Lee at Appomattox, that kind of stuff.

3420
03:32:24,330 --> 03:32:25,157
Didn't have anything

3421
03:32:25,240 --> 03:32:28,252
to do with Jim Crow or white supremacy,
although all the people who put them up

3422
03:32:28,336 --> 03:32:29,286
probably would've--

3423
03:32:29,600 --> 03:32:33,500
Clearly, we would consider them racist.
They were in favor of white supremacy.

3424
03:32:34,360 --> 03:32:37,820
But you don't need statues
in the post-war South

3425
03:32:38,220 --> 03:32:42,160
and the Jim Crow South.
You have the police force, state law,

3426
03:32:42,300 --> 03:32:46,197
local law, state troopers.
That's what enforces white supremacy,

3427
03:32:46,280 --> 03:32:49,240
not statues. The historian in me

3428
03:32:50,480 --> 03:32:54,200
likes to use them as part
of the historical record,

3429
03:32:54,780 --> 03:32:58,250
interpret them, use them to explain
different parts of U.S. history.

3430
03:32:59,400 --> 03:33:03,120
That's how I used them.
Having said all that, I did, I do,

3431
03:33:03,260 --> 03:33:05,594
did, and still do believe
that it should be a local issue.

3432
03:33:05,678 --> 03:33:07,157
If a locality decides they don't want

3433
03:33:07,240 --> 03:33:09,690
them up anymore,
then don't have them up anymore.

3434
03:33:09,880 --> 03:33:13,677
- I think if we ignore history, we're
gonna be doomed to repeat it. I think

3435
03:33:13,760 --> 03:33:17,500
that's... We should never
censor books. We should

3436
03:33:17,600 --> 03:33:20,300
read books. We should read
Mein Kampf. We should read,

3437
03:33:21,400 --> 03:33:25,117
Books that capture a certain moment
in history, even if it's a hateful

3438
03:33:25,200 --> 03:33:28,637
moment in history, even if it's a
destructive moment in history. We need to

3439
03:33:28,720 --> 03:33:29,553
understand-

3440
03:33:29,780 --> 03:33:35,157
- Or have them read texts written
at the time that have language that we

3441
03:33:35,240 --> 03:33:39,080
wouldn't use now. It helps you
understand the ti- It's, it's-

3442
03:33:39,460 --> 03:33:43,197
There are a lot of hard edges in the past.
There are a lot of nice

3443
03:33:43,280 --> 03:33:46,122
edges too that make you feel good,
but there are a lot of really hard edges

3444
03:33:46,206 --> 03:33:47,157
in the past, and if you're

3445
03:33:47,240 --> 03:33:51,217
gonna be serious about coming to terms
with history, you need to accept

3446
03:33:51,300 --> 03:33:55,117
that and deal with them and talk
about them and not just try

3447
03:33:55,200 --> 03:33:59,077
to erase them, I think.
There are a lot of books that people won't

3448
03:33:59,160 --> 03:34:01,940
read now. I taught a graduate
seminar at one point

3449
03:34:02,900 --> 03:34:06,820
on foundational 19th century
texts, and one of the texts

3450
03:34:07,000 --> 03:34:10,880
I was gonna— that I assigned
in the class was Huckleberry Finn.

3451
03:34:12,400 --> 03:34:15,392
And a lot of the students said they
wouldn't read Huckleberry Finn because

3452
03:34:15,475 --> 03:34:16,097
they knew it had

3453
03:34:16,180 --> 03:34:18,757
language in it that they...
And they didn't wanna see those words.

3454
03:34:18,840 --> 03:34:23,600
- Even just reading about slavery,
American and otherwise, is hard.

3455
03:34:24,600 --> 03:34:28,220
It's really difficult. But,
like, we're capable of that. We

3456
03:34:28,360 --> 03:34:32,060
humans are capable of that.
And this doesn't somehow go

3457
03:34:32,200 --> 03:34:36,097
away because we agree for it to

3458
03:34:36,180 --> 03:34:40,060
go away. We can always return
back to that, maybe in other forms,

3459
03:34:40,580 --> 03:34:44,550
in other ways. We can do evil
things unto each other. And I,

3460
03:34:44,860 --> 03:34:48,457
I personally believe all of us are
capable of doing evil things unto each

3461
03:34:48,540 --> 03:34:54,500
other. And the dark
reality of that is we too

3462
03:34:54,960 --> 03:34:57,740
readily convince ourselves
that we're doing good.

3463
03:34:58,360 --> 03:35:00,907
- Yeah, because if you're
doing good, you can do anything-

3464
03:35:00,990 --> 03:35:05,537
... and it's justified if it's,
if it's good. If the end is good-

3465
03:35:05,620 --> 03:35:08,317
... all bets are off.
You can do anything that you wanna do.

3466
03:35:08,400 --> 03:35:14,457
- And reading history to realize that,
uh, we need to think deeper and more

3467
03:35:14,540 --> 03:35:18,510
critically about our actions and,

3468
03:35:18,840 --> 03:35:23,030
and also that history is complicated,
and there's a bunch of different forces,

3469
03:35:24,220 --> 03:35:29,137
Is really important.
And also to realize that

3470
03:35:29,220 --> 03:35:35,180
individuals can, can turn
the tides of history, can like,

3471
03:35:36,180 --> 03:35:39,917
can lead to progress,
can stop evil doing when it's

3472
03:35:40,000 --> 03:35:43,850
happening. All of those things. Like,
the power of the individual is immense.

3473
03:35:44,300 --> 03:35:47,850
- Yes. I mean, coming back to the
monuments for a minute, it, it's also

3474
03:35:48,120 --> 03:35:51,757
worth talking about that even at the time
there were people who... A lot of Union

3475
03:35:51,840 --> 03:35:54,557
veterans were against putting
up Confederate monuments.

3476
03:35:54,640 --> 03:35:55,737
Frederick Douglass had

3477
03:35:55,820 --> 03:35:59,637
a problem with the Emancipation
Monument that was in Emancipation Park

3478
03:35:59,720 --> 03:36:03,065
on Capitol Hill and talked about
the reasons why he had a pro- "Why is this

3479
03:36:03,149 --> 03:36:07,457
the image that you chose for that
monument?" Union veterans, they had a

3480
03:36:07,540 --> 03:36:10,030
hard time with Confederate monuments, and

3481
03:36:11,000 --> 03:36:14,820
I just think that it is...
Almost everything can be a teaching tool,

3482
03:36:14,960 --> 03:36:21,960
un- but it bothers me that certain books
would be proscribed because they have some

3483
03:36:22,540 --> 03:36:26,520
language that might bother somebody.
And, and, and it... You need to...

3484
03:36:28,120 --> 03:36:30,320
I mean, the language
should bother you. So-

3485
03:36:31,180 --> 03:36:36,760
- I think, I think history
truly should bother you.

3486
03:36:38,200 --> 03:36:40,977
It, it, the, it should be difficult.

3487
03:36:41,060 --> 03:36:44,060
It should be a painful
process to study human history

3488
03:36:44,860 --> 03:36:48,697
because if it's not painful,
you're not really understanding

3489
03:36:48,780 --> 03:36:51,960
the full range of what
we're capable of. But anyway,

3490
03:36:54,340 --> 03:36:58,217
you know, people in the modern day,
I have to ask you about this, kinda

3491
03:36:58,300 --> 03:37:02,700
casually talk about the new
Civil War in America.

3492
03:37:03,200 --> 03:37:06,577
As somebody who studied the Civil
War, do you think our country

3493
03:37:06,660 --> 03:37:10,537
today is divided to a degree
that's on the verge

3494
03:37:10,620 --> 03:37:14,500
of something like the Civil
War of the 19th century?

3495
03:37:14,600 --> 03:37:18,337
- No, I really don't. And I'm not
pr- And I don't mean to play down the

3496
03:37:18,420 --> 03:37:23,617
degree to which... that we are divided.
We are divided. We, we do resemble the

3497
03:37:23,700 --> 03:37:27,537
1850s now in that I
think the first impulse on

3498
03:37:27,620 --> 03:37:31,117
the part of people on either side
of the political spectrum is to

3499
03:37:31,200 --> 03:37:34,957
attribute the worst to the
other side and to, and to not

3500
03:37:35,040 --> 03:37:38,480
acknowledge any, any good on the
other side, to attribute the worst

3501
03:37:38,580 --> 03:37:41,050
possible characteristics
to the other side,

3502
03:37:42,160 --> 03:37:45,977
and to have inflammatory
rhetoric coming from

3503
03:37:46,060 --> 03:37:50,017
various directions that,
that really seeks to sort of stir

3504
03:37:50,100 --> 03:37:53,697
up as much unhappiness and controversy
as possible. I think we're like the

3505
03:37:53,780 --> 03:37:57,677
1850s in that way. But I-- But in terms of

3506
03:37:57,760 --> 03:38:01,557
whether we're really at the point
where the kind of actions that I've

3507
03:38:01,640 --> 03:38:04,140
dealt with in my study of the Civil War

3508
03:38:05,680 --> 03:38:09,537
I, I don't think we're anywhere near that.
And I mean, I really don't. If

3509
03:38:09,620 --> 03:38:13,620
we get there, that will be heartbreaking,
but I just don't, I just don't see it.

3510
03:38:14,100 --> 03:38:17,897
I don't see physical assaults
against members of Congress on the

3511
03:38:17,980 --> 03:38:24,960
floor of the Congress. I don't see...
It's, States talk about seceding if things

3512
03:38:25,060 --> 03:38:28,917
don't go... Texas talked about seceding
when Obama was elected. California

3513
03:38:29,000 --> 03:38:31,393
talked about seceding when Trump
was elected. But you know what?

3514
03:38:31,477 --> 03:38:32,537
Neither one of them called a

3515
03:38:32,620 --> 03:38:36,517
secession convention and had
delegates go to it. When Lincoln was

3516
03:38:36,600 --> 03:38:40,380
elected, they called conventions,
they voted to secede, and they left the

3517
03:38:40,540 --> 03:38:44,337
they left the nation.
So that's different to me than talking

3518
03:38:44,420 --> 03:38:48,960
about it and threatening it
and posing different scenarios.

3519
03:38:49,700 --> 03:38:53,460
- Are there genuine structural
parallels between that time and now,

3520
03:38:53,820 --> 03:38:55,097
if you can linger on that?

3521
03:38:55,180 --> 03:38:59,037
- Well, I mean, the states
structurally, a state can call a

3522
03:38:59,120 --> 03:39:00,560
convention if it wants to,

3523
03:39:01,840 --> 03:39:05,797
and to talk about whatever it
wants to talk about. So I suppose

3524
03:39:05,880 --> 03:39:08,140
that structure is still in place,

3525
03:39:09,060 --> 03:39:14,540
but I haven't seen any serious movement
toward doing something like that.

3526
03:39:15,580 --> 03:39:20,780
- Yeah. And I think there's a real
cohesion and resilience to the Union,

3527
03:39:21,700 --> 03:39:25,517
as we've talked about. I think people are,

3528
03:39:25,600 --> 03:39:31,600
despite the discourse
and the bickering, there's a real

3529
03:39:32,600 --> 03:39:39,520
love of nation that maybe is not
often expressed-... explicitly. But

3530
03:39:40,660 --> 03:39:43,410
there is a sense that we're
all in this kinda together,

3531
03:39:44,200 --> 03:39:47,091
and that we're yelling at each other.
Kinda like you have a family Thanksgiving

3532
03:39:47,174 --> 03:39:48,007
dinner

3533
03:39:48,580 --> 03:39:51,120
where there's very passionate

3534
03:39:52,440 --> 03:39:56,420
yelling and arguing, but there's a kinda
assumption that we're still a family.

3535
03:39:57,140 --> 03:39:58,390
At least that's the hope.

3536
03:39:59,920 --> 03:40:05,580
You know, one of the questions that
the Civil War asked is, What is America?

3537
03:40:07,640 --> 03:40:11,297
So I have to ask you from over 50 years of

3538
03:40:11,380 --> 03:40:16,550
studying the Civil War-... like what,
what do you think? What is this country?

3539
03:40:17,720 --> 03:40:23,840
What is this union?
What is the core that makes us who we are?

3540
03:40:24,840 --> 03:40:28,637
- Well, I think in a lot of ways
it's much of what it was in the

3541
03:40:28,720 --> 03:40:32,660
mid-19th century. I still think it's
a magnet for... I mean, we're in an--

3542
03:40:32,760 --> 03:40:36,360
we're far more diverse now as a people
than we were during the Civil War

3543
03:40:37,000 --> 03:40:40,680
because we continue
to act in the same way as

3544
03:40:40,960 --> 03:40:44,460
it did in the Civil War, only they're not
Germans and people come from everywhere

3545
03:40:44,543 --> 03:40:47,693
here now. I mean, they literally
come from everywhere here now.

3546
03:40:48,340 --> 03:40:52,277
And everybody doesn't find a nice
easy road here by any means,

3547
03:40:52,360 --> 03:40:54,060
and there are lots of things wrong

3548
03:40:54,720 --> 03:41:00,900
with the United States. But I still
think the United States acts... Has a

3549
03:41:01,720 --> 03:41:05,587
role in the world that's unlike,
I won't say any other place, but I can't

3550
03:41:05,670 --> 03:41:08,978
think of a place that's quite like it,
that has so many people coming from so

3551
03:41:09,061 --> 03:41:14,117
many places, who somehow manage to fit
into this mosaic. And then I think

3552
03:41:14,200 --> 03:41:18,017
most people do have a way to fit into
the mosaic, and then they become part of

3553
03:41:18,100 --> 03:41:21,897
the old mosaic when the next
group of people who are not like

3554
03:41:21,980 --> 03:41:25,430
them come in, and those are the ones
who are the new ones fitting in.

3555
03:41:25,540 --> 03:41:28,910
- Yeah, sometimes I think about,
I'm sorry to romanticize it,

3556
03:41:29,180 --> 03:41:34,200
but because I do think that Barack
Obama was one of the great speech makers

3557
03:41:35,120 --> 03:41:42,060
of my lifetime. And I sometimes
imagine what Lincoln would have thought

3558
03:41:42,860 --> 03:41:48,857
if he could attend an Obama speech.
If he saw that Obama became

3559
03:41:48,940 --> 03:41:52,897
president, that an African American
became President of the United States of

3560
03:41:52,980 --> 03:41:57,260
America. It's, it seems like
such a trivial thing to say,

3561
03:41:58,460 --> 03:42:02,417
But I think it's not trivial at

3562
03:42:02,500 --> 03:42:04,797
all. It's one of the great
accomplishments of our country.

3563
03:42:04,880 --> 03:42:11,340
- I think one of Lincoln's great
attributes was his humanity comes through

3564
03:42:12,220 --> 03:42:15,957
so many things that he wrote.
His real appreciation for

3565
03:42:16,040 --> 03:42:19,957
people who faced long odds,
worked against the odds, didn't

3566
03:42:20,040 --> 03:42:23,360
begin with advantages
in their favor, and so forth.

3567
03:42:23,580 --> 03:42:27,560
I think he and his ability to grow, I
think he would have handled that actually

3568
03:42:27,660 --> 03:42:31,040
pretty well. Much better than
many other people I can think of

3569
03:42:31,640 --> 03:42:37,330
from the mid-19th century.
I think he had genuine humanity. I think,

3570
03:42:37,420 --> 03:42:41,197
I don't think you can read all
the things he wrote and not come to

3571
03:42:41,280 --> 03:42:44,937
that conclusion. He also...
But, so does, does he check all our

3572
03:42:45,020 --> 03:42:48,957
boxes now? Of course he doesn't. Was he
prejudiced by our standards in some ways?

3573
03:42:49,040 --> 03:42:52,817
Of course he was. But I think that he,
I think he would have handled that

3574
03:42:52,900 --> 03:42:54,700
pretty well, and he would have been,

3575
03:42:55,040 --> 03:42:57,476
still been really tall.
Even in our time-...

3576
03:42:57,559 --> 03:42:59,620
he'd be way taller than most people.

3577
03:43:01,200 --> 03:43:05,500
- Yeah. What you know, 250th birthday,

3578
03:43:07,240 --> 03:43:10,340
What gives you hope about
the future of America?

3579
03:43:10,900 --> 03:43:14,880
- What gives me hope? I'm, and I'm,
and I'm a grouchy, not optimistic

3580
03:43:15,000 --> 03:43:16,077
person in a lot of ways. - Are you?

3581
03:43:16,160 --> 03:43:19,940
- Yeah, I am. I am. - You had
some moments of optimism today.

3582
03:43:20,240 --> 03:43:24,220
- I was just gonna say, but for, I do
have moments of optimism, and one of them

3583
03:43:24,340 --> 03:43:30,468
I have is in the resiliency
of this republic. I really do have...

3584
03:43:30,551 --> 03:43:32,037
And it's genuine

3585
03:43:32,120 --> 03:43:35,262
optimism. I'm not just... And I know a lot
of people will think that it's naive,

3586
03:43:35,345 --> 03:43:38,997
but I really... Because I'm, see what
it's been through, and it's emerged-

3587
03:43:39,080 --> 03:43:42,820
... and it's gone forward. And the
trajectory, and this is something O-

3588
03:43:43,060 --> 03:43:46,837
that Obama has commented on, and as have
many others, the trajectory is in the

3589
03:43:46,920 --> 03:43:51,023
right direction. With lots
of things you wish were different,

3590
03:43:51,106 --> 03:43:52,997
but the overall trajectory is in the right

3591
03:43:53,080 --> 03:43:56,060
direction. I really do
believe that, and that's why

3592
03:43:57,160 --> 03:44:00,260
I tend to be, in that regard, optimistic.

3593
03:44:01,000 --> 03:44:02,520
- I think there's a few folks

3594
03:44:03,340 --> 03:44:07,230
on the interwebs that talk about
the decline of the American empire,

3595
03:44:07,920 --> 03:44:10,770
even using the word empire.
I'm one of the f-

3596
03:44:12,140 --> 03:44:15,997
One of the folks who thinks
that America's flourishing. It's, it

3597
03:44:16,080 --> 03:44:18,580
is a beacon of hope
and freedom in the world,

3598
03:44:19,420 --> 03:44:21,770
and there's a lot to criticize,
the militarism,

3599
03:44:22,660 --> 03:44:26,990
And a lot of different
aspects that are hypocritical,

3600
03:44:28,580 --> 03:44:34,297
and is not always living up
to the great ideals that it

3601
03:44:34,380 --> 03:44:38,080
supposedly represents,
but at least is striving towards that.

3602
03:44:38,980 --> 03:44:42,797
And it is still a home
for the great diversity

3603
03:44:42,880 --> 03:44:46,777
of humans, as you've mentioned.
That, I think, is one of the great,

3604
03:44:46,860 --> 03:44:50,520
beautiful aspects about this country.
And the full mess of it, the drama,

3605
03:44:50,680 --> 03:44:54,317
the arguments, the heated passion, the

3606
03:44:54,400 --> 03:44:57,900
chaos, the thing that feels
like chaos but I think

3607
03:44:58,000 --> 03:45:01,817
ultimately will lead to progress.
I love all of it. I think it

3608
03:45:01,900 --> 03:45:04,360
is the greatest nation
on Earth. So on this

3609
03:45:05,240 --> 03:45:09,480
250th birthday, I hope
there's 250 years more, and

3610
03:45:10,360 --> 03:45:14,040
I'm truly grateful that
there's somebody like you

3611
03:45:14,160 --> 03:45:18,525
studying our great history, and I'm
grateful for this wonderful conversation

3612
03:45:18,609 --> 03:45:21,037
today. - I appreciate
the invitation. It's been fun.

3613
03:45:21,120 --> 03:45:22,020
- Thank you, Gary.

3614
03:45:22,760 --> 03:45:25,553
Thank you for listening to this
conversation with Gary Gallagher.

3615
03:45:25,636 --> 03:45:26,277
To support this

3616
03:45:26,360 --> 03:45:30,237
podcast, please check out our sponsors
in the description, where you can

3617
03:45:30,320 --> 03:45:34,160
also find links to contact me,
ask questions, give feedback, and so

3618
03:45:34,280 --> 03:45:37,820
on. And now, let me leave you
with some words from William Tecumseh

3619
03:45:37,940 --> 03:45:41,160
Sherman, a United States
Army general in the Union

3620
03:45:41,280 --> 03:45:45,380
Army during the Civil War.
"I am tired and sick of war.

3621
03:45:46,360 --> 03:45:50,117
Its glory is all moonshine.
It is only those who have

3622
03:45:50,200 --> 03:45:54,080
neither fired a shot nor heard
the shrieks and groans of the wounded

3623
03:45:54,620 --> 03:45:58,760
who cry aloud for blood,
for vengeance, for desolation.

3624
03:45:59,880 --> 03:46:06,800
War is hell." Thank you for listening,
and hope to see you next time.