WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.877 One rule of old media's don't be interested. 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:04.877 Like that's the worst thing you can do. 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:08.277 There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to 00:00:08.360 --> 00:00:10.637 like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just basically not 00:00:10.720 --> 00:00:13.757 possible. Old media you had very 00:00:13.840 --> 00:00:16.357 restricted channels with very restricted 00:00:16.440 --> 00:00:19.717 formats. New media is unlimited formats 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:22.877 on unlimited channels and the brand is 00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:25.597 now the person. The grand wizard of this 00:00:25.680 --> 00:00:30.877 is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about volunteering. 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.717 >> Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product 00:00:33.800 --> 00:00:35.957 out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the 00:00:36.040 --> 00:00:38.677 most interesting things happening in the world and then how do those things 00:00:38.760 --> 00:00:42.317 relate to us? >> Old media is defense oriented. New media is offense. 00:00:42.400 --> 00:00:43.997 >> Talk Talk more about why that is. 00:00:44.080 --> 00:00:47.637 >> There's still this anxiety that people have which is legacy media somehow is 00:00:47.720 --> 00:00:50.237 like where the respectability is, the prestige is. I don't believe that 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:52.557 anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:55.040 their system. 00:00:55.760 --> 00:00:58.397 >> So first I would just want to say it's Gabby's birthday today. You know, I'm so 00:00:58.480 --> 00:01:01.837 excited for the next one in five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had 00:01:01.920 --> 00:01:05.517 floor seats to the game six and wasn't going to make it today and so we're so 00:01:05.600 --> 00:01:08.757 lucky that we get to have Ben here. 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:13.557 And uh you know, Mark not a huge basketball guy, but he he did tweet 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:15.597 about how Jaylen Brunson he had a 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:20.997 comment where that he operates purely on instincts not on introspection and Mark 00:01:21.080 --> 00:01:23.797 appreciates that. >> Richard Nixon obviously working. 00:01:23.880 --> 00:01:28.757 >> Exactly. Many people are saying you know, across across industries. And so I 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:33.517 actually think that's a pretty interesting because one of the rules of of new media 00:01:33.600 --> 00:01:35.477 um Mark that we were talking about with the 00:01:35.560 --> 00:01:38.517 CEO last week in our growth portfolio is 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:42.637 authenticity and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera 00:01:42.720 --> 00:01:46.277 that you would have in person behind closed doors. 00:01:46.360 --> 00:01:51.157 Why don't you talk about that that a bit more and and why that's so important to 00:01:51.240 --> 00:01:54.837 to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and and how to build that 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:57.917 presence. Because a lot of lot of mistakes that founders will make trying 00:01:58.000 --> 00:02:02.397 to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, etc. As we uncover the 00:02:02.480 --> 00:02:04.397 new rules of new media, what what do you start there? 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.197 >> Yeah, so I had this really formative experience when I was younger. So in the 00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:10.757 '90s when I was coming up Ben and I were coming up. And so you know, in in in 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:13.917 those days it you know, it's pre pre blogs, pre YouTube, all all this stuff. 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:17.517 Um and so in those days you know, the assumption was 100% of what you did if 00:02:17.600 --> 00:02:20.237 you were running a company or doing anything was you you're going to have to 00:02:20.320 --> 00:02:23.117 work through you know, established media, legacy media. 00:02:23.200 --> 00:02:25.797 Um and so and and then everybody would get you know, of course media you know, 00:02:25.880 --> 00:02:31.037 media trained in how to do it. And you >> Most painful experience in the world. 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:33.477 >> Oh yeah, so for people who haven't been through media training it's actually 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:37.117 >> Watch yourself on TV it's a >> Yeah, so okay, so here's how media 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:38.717 training work. I I don't know if they still 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:40.677 I don't know if they still do it but do they do they still do it? You guys still 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:42.837 do it? Okay, okay, so for people who haven't been 00:02:42.920 --> 00:02:46.287 through it. Yeah, so it's like you get put in front of one of these camera 00:02:46.370 --> 00:02:47.837 >> [snorts] >> in your face and then and then somebody 00:02:47.920 --> 00:02:51.237 like you know, who's supposed to who you think is your friend. Um you know, they 00:02:51.320 --> 00:02:54.677 do like the full 60 minutes interview with you. And and and you know, whatever 00:02:54.760 --> 00:02:57.037 and then they you know, they do it for like an hour. And then and then they 00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:59.387 literally make you sit there and watch it. 00:02:59.470 --> 00:03:01.677 >> [snorts] >> Which is just like the meanest thing you can do to somebody. 00:03:01.760 --> 00:03:05.317 >> And and critique you and you're looking at yourself [__] it up and they're going 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.597 you see how you [__] that up? [laughter] And you're like well, I'm really 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:10.717 uncomfortable now. I'm never going on TV. 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.317 >> Exactly. And you're like can we just fast No, you can't fast forward. We're 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.117 going to watch the entire thing. 00:03:15.200 --> 00:03:18.877 Um and then and then maybe we'll watch it again. Um and so it is it is very 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:21.917 revealing. And you discover all kinds of things about your personal effort by the 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:24.517 way. Also you discover all the things you do, all the extra words. 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:25.917 >> How much you hate your voice. 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.357 >> Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you look. I mean it's incredible. It's 00:03:28.440 --> 00:03:32.237 incredible. And so if your ego just survives the beating, you go on to a 00:03:32.320 --> 00:03:36.277 successful career. Um and so you know, that's what you did. And and then and 00:03:36.360 --> 00:03:39.357 then but it was always so weird cuz it's like the result is just like I just 00:03:39.440 --> 00:03:42.357 always struck me as just like the result is like wow, you see like important 00:03:42.440 --> 00:03:45.357 people with important things to say on TV whatever they just seem like plastic 00:03:45.440 --> 00:03:48.717 people. They just seem like you know, it's all very you know, fake and staged. 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:50.877 And then by the way, you know, this is like you know, in the old days it's like 00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:53.717 you know, cuz all all the all the anchor people or interviewers are all like you 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:56.117 know, using you know, anchorman voice. 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:59.157 And then you get a CEO up there who just says like the most innocuous things 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:03.037 possible. Um and a lot of CEOs in those days and by the way, still they they 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.277 they they rank their success in in in doing an interview or giving a speech 00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:09.797 based on minimum minimum controversy, right? So, they come off stage. I I've 00:04:09.880 --> 00:04:11.797 worked with lots of CEOs like they come off stage and they're very proud of 00:04:11.880 --> 00:04:13.677 themselves cuz they didn't make any news. 00:04:13.760 --> 00:04:17.357 Right? Um so it's sort of like that. And so >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that is a key. 00:04:17.440 --> 00:04:20.477 >> Right. So, I go through the meeting and so >> All news is bad news. 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:23.317 >> So, I I get we we hire at the time a company we hired, you know, at the time 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:27.197 was considered the best media trainer uh who was a guy um uh who uh had 00:04:27.280 --> 00:04:30.157 previously been a producer at at 60 Minutes. You know, >> Lee Les Elden. 00:04:30.240 --> 00:04:31.877 >> We Lee Les Elden who'd been a producer. 00:04:31.960 --> 00:04:34.797 He actually he was he was actually quite quite a well-known guy at the time. Um 00:04:34.880 --> 00:04:38.517 he had been uh Lowell Bergman's producer and Lowell Bergman became uh Lowell 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.637 Bergman No, um well, there I mean, Mike Wallace it was that whole complex. But 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.077 he's like he's like, "We're not doing any of the classic media training that 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.237 we do." He said, "We're going to do the thing that everybody always under rates, 00:04:46.320 --> 00:04:50.037 which is we're going to get you to basically just say all the things in 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:53.157 public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend." 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:55.677 Right? And I remember like the back of my head like, you know, just like blew 00:04:55.760 --> 00:04:58.157 open cuz it's just like, "Okay." And then you know, and then and then 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:01.557 immediately you're like, "Okay, why are we paying this guy that And it's like 00:05:01.640 --> 00:05:03.957 you know, cuz that's like very obvious advice and then it's like nobody else 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.397 will give you that advice. What the what's going on?" He just said, "Look." 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.037 He said He said He said the following. 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:11.437 He said, "If if you are on stage or in an interview and you were talking about 00:05:11.520 --> 00:05:13.957 something and you don't know that topic inside out already, like what the hell 00:05:14.040 --> 00:05:17.117 are you doing there? So, the only thing that you should ever be talking about is 00:05:17.200 --> 00:05:19.437 something that you know you know intimately. If you know it intimately, 00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:23.357 you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting uh way. Um you 00:05:23.440 --> 00:05:26.077 know, that really relate you know, relates your thoughts on the thing. And 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:29.117 you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because you're 00:05:29.200 --> 00:05:30.997 talking you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking 00:05:31.080 --> 00:05:34.437 to your friend. And so he's like, "My my training is a 100% to try to get you to 00:05:34.520 --> 00:05:37.237 not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that." 00:05:37.320 --> 00:05:39.597 Um and then you know, the other part cuz this you assume the media is 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.117 adversarial. The other part was then you know, the the forget what he called the 00:05:42.200 --> 00:05:45.117 pivot or whatever, which was basically just the you know, the thing of like you 00:05:45.200 --> 00:05:47.517 you answer their questions. You always answer your own questions, which is a 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:50.437 bit that >> Which by the way makes it a little unnatural, right? 00:05:50.520 --> 00:05:52.797 >> It does. It's [clears throat] the Jedi It's the Jedi but it's the Jedi knight 00:05:52.880 --> 00:05:55.117 thing that that made that whole approach work, which is it's just like, okay, 00:05:55.200 --> 00:05:57.237 you're talking naturally. Well, one of the ways you talk naturally is you just 00:05:57.320 --> 00:06:00.797 refuse to answer the the bad questions and you just substitute in your good 00:06:00.880 --> 00:06:03.997 question. Anyway, so he he went through the whole thing and so then then I you 00:06:04.080 --> 00:06:06.397 know, we've been watching the evolution of the whole you know, the whole the 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:09.717 whole new media landscape for 30 years and it's just like, wow, if you watch 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:12.597 what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what you know, 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:15.757 Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon does or you watch what any of the great 00:06:15.840 --> 00:06:18.517 communicators do, like that's what they're doing. You know, I'd say put 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:22.277 Jensen in the in the in the in that rank you know, lately. It's just like, wow, 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:24.477 it's like and and by the way, you know, this is the rise of the long form 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:27.077 podcast, you know, the three-hour conversation 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:31.077 and and and then just you know, by the way, the sort of re-rise of the idea of 00:06:31.160 --> 00:06:33.637 just like interesting people having interesting conversations, which you 00:06:33.720 --> 00:06:37.677 know, was very [snorts] radical at one point, which is now now a common thing. 00:06:37.760 --> 00:06:42.277 And so I I think that remains the the actual advice and of course Eric, your 00:06:42.360 --> 00:06:45.837 point what that gets across is is authenticity, which is like, okay, am I 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.317 you know, in addition to what's being said, do I actually as the viewer 00:06:49.400 --> 00:06:51.357 audience, do I actually feel like I'm meeting a real person? 00:06:51.440 --> 00:06:54.997 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very good points. 00:06:55.080 --> 00:06:57.677 >> Related we've been talking about how old media 00:06:57.760 --> 00:07:00.877 is defense oriented, new media is offense. 00:07:00.960 --> 00:07:04.877 Talk more about why that is and what that playbook looks like. One of the 00:07:04.960 --> 00:07:07.277 things we were talking about more also in that meeting is the importance of of 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:11.397 outside in and situating sort of your story within the context of what's 00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:14.277 what's happening externally. >> Yeah, so the the the the press in my 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.557 view and and and reporters get furious with me when I say this, which is why I 00:07:17.640 --> 00:07:22.677 know that I'm correct. The traditional press legacy press defined 00:07:22.760 --> 00:07:23.957 itself as having two functions, right? 00:07:24.040 --> 00:07:26.437 Which one was you know, impartial journalism, 00:07:26.520 --> 00:07:29.637 objective journalism. Sometimes called the voice from nowhere, which meant you 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:31.797 know, presenting both sides of something. 00:07:31.880 --> 00:07:34.717 By the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides. And and by the 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.997 way, not more than two sides. And so that there's always something a little 00:07:37.080 --> 00:07:41.077 bit weird about that. But you know, at least the idea of like showing an issue, 00:07:41.160 --> 00:07:44.597 explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople, you know, for 00:07:44.680 --> 00:07:47.117 the different different points of view actually say it. Um, and then they had 00:07:47.200 --> 00:07:49.317 this the second mission was to speak speak truth to power. 00:07:49.400 --> 00:07:51.597 >> Yeah, that that was the one that got in the way of the first one. 00:07:51.680 --> 00:07:52.357 >> the one that got in the way of the first 00:07:52.440 --> 00:07:54.797 one. So, speak truth to power and that became the way the way they ended up 00:07:54.880 --> 00:07:58.837 describing that was it was uh uh com- uh uh uh afflict the comfortable and 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:00.397 comfort the afflicted. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.357 >> Right. Uh and of course, you know, at this point we we know what that means. 00:08:03.440 --> 00:08:04.837 >> Um >> Yeah. 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:08.397 >> But it devolved into uh power to truth. 00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:12.277 So, it it's like the press's way of intimidating you into not saying what 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.677 you thought. Um so. >> Yeah, the the the the the Yeah, 00:08:15.760 --> 00:08:18.077 they right cuz there's a line between like it's a line between actually 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.997 objective and then and then and then activist, right? So, somebody with a uh 00:08:21.080 --> 00:08:24.557 somebody with an agenda. Um and so I I think I'm my view is what happened over 00:08:24.640 --> 00:08:27.117 time is that that second one just like swamped the first one and then it just 00:08:27.200 --> 00:08:30.277 became the thing and and then as a consequence, like just the the very 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.357 nature of the interaction changed. Now, yeah, I mean, the short version is I I, 00:08:33.440 --> 00:08:38.517 you know, I I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017. And you 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.037 know, every once in a while there's the hit piece or bad, you know, bad faith 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:44.157 thing or whatever, but like I don't know, 90% of the time I felt like it had 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:46.877 been a good idea to do it and I felt like, you know, I'd been given a a 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.437 chance to tell tell my thing. By the way, for for almost that entire 00:08:50.520 --> 00:08:53.797 run, most people in the country and in the press thought starters were kind of 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:56.717 cool and tech was kind of cool and kind of fun and it was kind of good for 00:08:56.800 --> 00:08:59.197 America that there were these tech companies and the products were kind of 00:08:59.280 --> 00:09:02.517 fun to use. >> I I I kind of remember those days. 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:05.637 >> Yeah, yes, in the in the in the ancient mists of the past, you know, they they 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:08.477 just, you know, and it was exci- you know, it was everything was exciting. 00:09:08.560 --> 00:09:11.077 And then the you know, then a lot of reporters and editors and you know, they 00:09:11.160 --> 00:09:13.437 they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, we need to like explain this to our 00:09:13.520 --> 00:09:16.877 readers and our viewers and really really have this come across." And then 00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:21.757 as as we like to say, like in 2017, it things changed. Um and basically since 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:25.757 then, my view is that that sort of second mode of of of being, um 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.637 you know, which is the sort of agenda-driven, you know, kind of really 00:09:28.720 --> 00:09:32.557 took over which which I think and I think probably will never never actually unwind. 00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:35.357 Um and so it's just the practical reality is we always tell the founders 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.117 like there there is no way um to get to anything resembling a story 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:41.117 that you're going to like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:44.877 just it it it's it's basically not possible." Um you know, every once in a 00:09:44.960 --> 00:09:49.277 while >> And you can land a story, but you can't run a strategy, yeah. 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.837 >> Yeah, like you there there are also some people people point to individuals 00:09:51.920 --> 00:09:54.077 individuals with success and I'll just feel like, "Okay, that's the you know, 00:09:54.160 --> 00:09:56.997 that's the exception that proves the rule." Like you know, there's 99 others 00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:59.637 um you know, that are not like that. And so there there just needs needs to be a 00:09:59.720 --> 00:10:02.757 new approach. Then I think the new approach is comes in comes in two parts. 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.077 It it comes in you know, what as we all call now go direct, which is you have to 00:10:06.160 --> 00:10:08.597 tell your own story increasingly through your own channels and through the 00:10:08.680 --> 00:10:11.277 channels of allies. And then the other thing is you know, new voices and new 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:16.197 media. Um and because because the legacy press has gone so bananas, 00:10:16.280 --> 00:10:20.037 you know, obviously there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up uh 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.277 you know, for for for the creation of new media and it's just like the 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:26.197 examples meant you know, many many of them are in this room are just 00:10:26.280 --> 00:10:29.757 spectacular. I think I think with what's happening. Well, it it used to be it's 00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:33.117 actually really funny. It used to be even in the golden age media like 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:36.077 Charlie like if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an 00:10:36.160 --> 00:10:39.237 hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:44.037 Rose midnight. Um it was something called the CBS Overnight CBS News 00:10:44.120 --> 00:10:46.517 Overnight and he was literally on at midnight and I would and this was like, 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:49.637 you know, pre-the-VCR you'd stay up until midnight to watch a smart 00:10:49.720 --> 00:10:53.277 conversation. And and to go from that to what we have today with in in the 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:56.717 podcast world and the Substack world is just such an incredible advance. Um and 00:10:56.800 --> 00:10:59.997 going incredibly well. So I think the new media world is just supremely, you 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:03.517 know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well. Um you know, but 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.717 but there's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media 00:11:06.800 --> 00:11:10.277 somehow is like where the I don't know I mean it it sounds so silly to say 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:13.437 anymore, but like the respectability is the prestige is. And I I always I don't 00:11:13.520 --> 00:11:15.717 believe that anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get 00:11:15.800 --> 00:11:18.117 that out of their system cuz the world has changed. 00:11:18.200 --> 00:11:21.677 >> To your point, so we so we were just in Washington and so we were with like all 00:11:21.760 --> 00:11:23.757 the kind of Washington people, senators 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.917 and whatnot. And I was asking them, you know, what does everybody in Washington 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:32.837 read? And it's the Mark Halperin newsletter, 00:11:32.920 --> 00:11:37.317 um which is new media. Uh so, it's uh I fully 00:11:37.400 --> 00:11:41.157 expect Axios, the Washington Post, and so forth. Cuz by the way, the one 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:45.877 holdout from you know, kind of people in the firm on like old media is, well, 00:11:45.960 --> 00:11:50.037 except for Washington. They all read this old, you know, stuff. 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.757 And not even that is true. So, so I think Mark's right. 00:11:53.840 --> 00:11:57.237 >> Yeah. >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct. 00:11:57.320 --> 00:12:01.437 We're certainly in the era now of going direct. It feels like it's table stakes 00:12:01.520 --> 00:12:05.637 for founders. Um but I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.797 have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of 00:12:09.880 --> 00:12:12.597 running the business day-to-day. And you can even think of a lot of great 00:12:12.680 --> 00:12:18.517 founders who spent their lives or careers in a lab or staring at a computer, and 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:21.997 this is not what they've been trained in. So, I'm curious both of your advice 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:26.477 for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this, or they don't know where 00:12:26.560 --> 00:12:30.517 to start. Do they have to get good at it, or are there other paths for them to 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:32.837 get their company the attention it deserves? 00:12:32.920 --> 00:12:36.157 >> Yeah. So, I think this is tricky. So, 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:40.717 if you if you just go, okay, old media, and how did that work in new media? So, 00:12:40.800 --> 00:12:43.157 old media, um 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:46.317 you had like very restricted channels 00:12:46.400 --> 00:12:48.757 with very restricted formats, 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:51.517 um and the brands were the companies. 00:12:51.600 --> 00:12:53.717 So, like that that that's basically the 00:12:53.800 --> 00:12:56.237 setup. So, you yes, you could talk to 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.837 the New York Times or CNN or whatever if 00:12:58.920 --> 00:13:03.717 you wanted to get the word out, um but then you were forced into like a quote 00:13:03.800 --> 00:13:09.077 or a very short interview or something like that. And then you were representing 00:13:09.160 --> 00:13:11.997 um a brand that wasn't you, and that's just 00:13:12.080 --> 00:13:14.117 kind of how it worked. 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:17.037 And so, the whole media strategy, 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:21.157 basically, was just get your name out there without 00:13:21.240 --> 00:13:25.797 tainting the company to the point where like it could never recover. Uh which is 00:13:25.880 --> 00:13:29.957 kind of how you got into this very defensive posture cuz you you can never 00:13:30.040 --> 00:13:33.597 take back anything. That was like a big rule in old media. Then you get to new 00:13:33.680 --> 00:13:37.317 media and new media is 00:13:37.400 --> 00:13:39.557 so the opposite in that it's unlimited 00:13:39.640 --> 00:13:42.357 formats, unlimited channels, and the 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.477 brand is now the person. So, it's not 00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:49.557 like were people talking about like when 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:53.357 every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX, they weren't they were mad 00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:57.677 about Elon cuz he's a brand. And the same thing like is is it 00:13:57.760 --> 00:14:00.557 Palantir or is it Alex? Um, 00:14:00.640 --> 00:14:02.237 and is it 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:05.037 uh, Anduril or is it Palmer? And 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.237 that's just over and over again. So, the 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.597 companies that are winning in marketing, 00:14:10.680 --> 00:14:13.517 the brand is the person. 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:18.037 And I guess like if you had another founder 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.357 or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:26.117 imagine that person kind of getting that person off to the to be the brand, but 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:29.677 it's going to be a person. Like I I don't think there's a way around that. 00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:33.877 And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting because 00:14:33.960 --> 00:14:36.237 otherwise it's going to get drowned out. 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:40.597 And so, you have to be it has to be a person and that person has to be 00:14:40.680 --> 00:14:45.237 interesting. Uh, which is why old media is so dangerous because the one rule of 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.397 old media is don't be interested. 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:49.957 Like that's the worst thing you can do. 00:14:50.040 --> 00:14:53.117 Um, you'll you'll F everything up. And so, 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:55.837 I I don't think uh, company can get away 00:14:55.920 --> 00:14:59.277 without it. Now, like if you look at 00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:04.037 like us as a firm, like technically I'm really the CEO, but like Mark is more 00:15:04.120 --> 00:15:08.717 the brand, I would say in terms of he just does way more media than I do. Uh, 00:15:08.800 --> 00:15:12.077 and that works, but it works cuz it's Andreessen Horowitz and nobody knows the 00:15:12.160 --> 00:15:15.437 [__] difference on the outside. It's fine. Um, and there are you can set up 00:15:15.520 --> 00:15:18.597 your company that way where they don't have to know how you're run. Like that's 00:15:18.680 --> 00:15:21.477 fine. But it's got to be somebody who's 00:15:21.560 --> 00:15:26.237 there kind of forever with uh, the organization. It can't be like 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.717 the vice president of marketing who's here for a three-year run and then is 00:15:29.800 --> 00:15:31.157 gone. Like that will never work. 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:33.757 >> Enron is another example. >> Yeah. Yeah. What one of my favorite 00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:35.837 favorite things that happens about once a week is when I get somebody 00:15:35.920 --> 00:15:37.887 congratulates me on writing Ben's book. 00:15:37.970 --> 00:15:41.357 >> [laughter] >> But he always takes full credit for it. 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:42.877 >> I do. I do. I just like I said, I really 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.517 poured a lot of you know, all my blood, sweat, and tears into that [laughter] 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:50.197 book. I'm just so glad I'm so glad that somebody finally read it. Um So 00:15:50.280 --> 00:15:54.477 um You know, look, so so I think there's a I think there's actually a technological 00:15:54.560 --> 00:15:57.997 explanation for what Ben said that that is actually I think quite important. So, 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:01.157 you know, up until basically what was it been like the 1930s or something like 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:04.557 companies were not they didn't have corporate brands. You you you you had 00:16:04.640 --> 00:16:05.997 you was the Ford you had you had people. 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:07.637 You know, it was the Ford Motor Company. 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:10.077 It was the It was the Edison Electric Company, 00:16:10.160 --> 00:16:13.117 right? So, the the it was just like you know, name on the it was literally name 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.757 on the door. It just it never even I mean, I'm positive it never occurred to 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.477 Henry Ford to name his company anything other than the Ford Motor Company. 00:16:18.560 --> 00:16:21.197 >> Well, [snorts] he did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right? 00:16:21.280 --> 00:16:25.037 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was like I think I can't remember. Somebody's got 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.677 to look it up. I think it became like Cadillac or something or like it was 00:16:27.760 --> 00:16:32.317 like actually like a a car company that lasted. But he got he was CTO. He wasn't 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:35.957 CEO. And he got in such a furious fight cuz he was a 00:16:36.040 --> 00:16:41.117 he was a hothead, Henry Ford. With the CEO that he quit his own company. 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.677 >> Yeah. A lot of those are Chrysler like Chrysler was a with the other guys. 00:16:44.760 --> 00:16:46.877 You know, a lot of those a lot of the a lot of the car early car 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:49.397 >> Oh, yeah, they're all named after themselves. And I I I think actually 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:54.117 maybe it was like Ford and then he when he quit they renamed it. That that could 00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:55.837 be it. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, something else. Yeah. So so it was 00:16:55.920 --> 00:16:57.157 like it was like name on the door. 00:16:57.240 --> 00:16:59.117 >> Yeah. >> Um it was just kind of just taken as as 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.237 as a given cuz like that's the guy running the company. That's that's 00:17:01.320 --> 00:17:03.877 that's what you do. And then I I think what happened is in the '30s, '40s you 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:06.277 started getting these, you know, International Business Machines, General 00:17:06.360 --> 00:17:09.277 Electric, General Motors. General Motors. You started getting these these 00:17:09.360 --> 00:17:11.997 these abstract names. Then you and then you got the consumer brand thing, you 00:17:12.080 --> 00:17:15.117 know, with like Procter & Gamble. So you had like Tide and Colgate and you know, 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.277 Crest toothpaste and all and a the and these things. The nifty 50 the 00:17:18.360 --> 00:17:20.957 conglomerate area. Which led you right, which led to the conglomerates which 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:23.957 were basically just piling up as many many brands as you could. And I and I 00:17:24.040 --> 00:17:26.357 think what happened was in retrospect, I think that was because of the rise of 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:29.717 centralized media specifically. Cuz before the 1930s like media was very 00:17:29.800 --> 00:17:33.397 decentralized. Like every town had like 15 newspapers. There were like tiny 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:35.637 little radio stations everywhere. 00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.837 And then you know, starting in the 30s or 40s media centralized hard. You know, 00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.917 in a way that was very unprecedented historically. And and and 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:45.917 probably what once once once once in a you know, it's probably [snorts] once in 00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.397 a thousand year thing that that happened. And then and then the thing 00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.717 with centralized media was just it's like it's like drinking everything 00:17:50.800 --> 00:17:53.717 through an incredibly narrow straw. Cuz there's just like by definition if 00:17:53.800 --> 00:17:57.397 there's three TV networks and there's 24 hours in the day, there's just only ever 00:17:57.480 --> 00:18:00.357 like how much time are you ever going to get? Or if there's the front page of you 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.157 know, three big newspapers, how many column inches are you ever going to get? 00:18:03.240 --> 00:18:05.717 And so the the message from any company had to get distilled down to the 00:18:05.800 --> 00:18:08.677 absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws. And I 00:18:08.760 --> 00:18:11.717 and I think that that was the corporate brand phenomenon which is to get the 00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:15.357 thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through to 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:17.997 get it through that straw. But I and then everybody became convinced that 00:18:18.080 --> 00:18:20.757 like that was just universally the way the world worked. But I think that only 00:18:20.840 --> 00:18:24.997 actually made sense. Uh so company as 00:18:25.080 --> 00:18:28.157 abstract brand with like our corporate brand like I think that only made sense 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:31.077 in the centralized media world. And I think what we're seeing as the 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.397 centralized media world is now you know, unwinding and collapsing. I I I think 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.637 mechanically that's why this new approach is is is working and it and is 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.037 necessary because that's why. Because in the new world, I 00:18:41.120 --> 00:18:45.277 mean, you know, the many examples of this. But it's just like you know, do do 00:18:45.360 --> 00:18:48.957 do do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan, right? And you know, 00:18:49.040 --> 00:18:53.197 up until 2024 the answer was absolutely not. After 2024 the answer is 100% they 00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:57.637 have to. Uh right? Like a big part, you know, for keeping politics out of it, a 00:18:57.720 --> 00:19:00.237 big part of all the democratic retrospectives of what happened in 24 00:19:00.320 --> 00:19:03.757 was that was that Kamala didn't go on didn't go on Rogan. 100% of the people 00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:06.157 who work in that world now think that the next person is going to have to go 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.517 on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means you're going to have to be on Rogan for 00:19:08.600 --> 00:19:12.317 three hours. And you're going to have to talk about anything. And so if you think 00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:15.437 about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's going to run, 00:19:15.520 --> 00:19:19.077 you know, for whatever party, or you know, for both parties, or any party, 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:22.717 like that that's the new bar. Um you have to be able to do that. You have and 00:19:22.800 --> 00:19:24.637 right, you have to be interesting, and then it goes right back to your 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:27.717 question. You you have to be the person who can do that. And if you're not the 00:19:27.800 --> 00:19:30.997 person who can do that, like >> Well, you got to it's a big marketing 00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:32.477 deficit. Let's just put it that way. 00:19:32.560 --> 00:19:37.797 Like like you you just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity, I think. 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:40.557 >> The the line from Succession, of course, I I can't avoid that. 00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:44.797 I can't not use answering your question is is it 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:47.637 Shiv said, "If you can't ride two elephants at the same time, what are you 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:51.197 doing in the circus?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah. 00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:56.517 >> I I would love to hear how you apply this thinking to your own work. Then you 00:19:56.600 --> 00:20:00.197 mentioned earlier or you mentioned before that you and Mark spend a lot of 00:20:00.280 --> 00:20:03.277 time discussing how and when to respond 00:20:03.360 --> 00:20:07.677 to things publicly and also when to not say anything. And so, I'm curious what 00:20:07.760 --> 00:20:09.717 those discussions are like for you both. 00:20:09.800 --> 00:20:13.117 How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet? And maybe if there 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:16.477 are times that you wish you did things differently. 00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:18.197 >> Yeah, so I I I mean it it's interesting 00:20:18.280 --> 00:20:21.797 with that because anytime somebody 00:20:21.880 --> 00:20:26.837 says something negative about us, we want to respond. It's just like it it but 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.477 you you have to determine whether like that's going to improve your position or 00:20:30.560 --> 00:20:35.797 they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid 00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.187 opinion. >> It'll always improve your situation to fight back. 00:20:39.270 --> 00:20:42.997 >> [laughter] >> Yeah, you always 100% 00:20:43.080 --> 00:20:46.717 You know, you have to have some discipline, otherwise you just will 00:20:46.800 --> 00:20:50.117 spend your whole life responding. Like the bigger you get, the more people can 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:52.557 at you. So, you know, it's kind of like 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:54.797 the degenerate version is like dealing 00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:57.517 with the people who comment on Twitter. 00:20:57.600 --> 00:21:02.357 Or X, sorry. Like So, the if you start answering the X replies of people who 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.387 have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that. 00:21:05.470 --> 00:21:08.837 >> [laughter] >> Then like 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:12.917 there's just like a colossal waste of time and you're amplifying somebody who 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.597 has no audience. So like what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.477 even be talking to you. Like they didn't do anything in life to have the right to 00:21:20.560 --> 00:21:23.437 talk to you. Um but there you are talking to them and 00:21:23.520 --> 00:21:28.637 wasting your time. So like that's that's the extreme degenerate case. Um However, 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.477 like if somebody comes out with something and it hits uh 00:21:32.560 --> 00:21:34.077 and it's going after you, that's 00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:36.757 actually a real op- opportunity to boost 00:21:36.840 --> 00:21:41.357 the brand um to come across with your own point of view, 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.757 your own position. And this could be something in the media or just, you 00:21:44.840 --> 00:21:47.277 know, something somebody does in new media. 00:21:47.360 --> 00:21:50.397 Uh That that actually turns into real 00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:54.317 opportunity. So a lot of you know, I would say 00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:58.757 a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people 00:21:58.840 --> 00:22:02.677 attacking us. Uh so that I I always saw that every time 00:22:02.760 --> 00:22:06.517 that happened as great Let's go. Like I one of my 00:22:06.600 --> 00:22:11.317 favorite things I ever wrote was uh Instagram. We we got into like this 00:22:11.400 --> 00:22:15.157 kerfuffle over Instagram with The New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:20.237 It was a thing. But then I responded um and it was like the biggest at that time 00:22:20.320 --> 00:22:23.517 the biggest post I ever wrote and everybody was like, "Yeah, [__] The New 00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:26.317 York Times." And so it was it it kind of 00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.997 took us from here to here in one shot 00:22:29.080 --> 00:22:33.597 just cuz everybody loves a fight. So fights are good for brand building. Um 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:37.757 but you just got to pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand. 00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:41.637 >> Well, to that end when I you know, picking the battles when I first joined, 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:44.757 I would bring up these uh negative tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, 00:22:44.840 --> 00:22:48.437 you know, these Anons are saying bad things about us." And you guys would be 00:22:48.520 --> 00:22:52.797 like, "Who cares?" Uh like this is in fact part of our success means we're 00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.237 going to have more and more people who are saying negative things. So 00:22:56.320 --> 00:22:58.677 >> Well, specifically they were they were they were they were saying mean things 00:22:58.760 --> 00:23:00.557 based on the things that we were funding. And then they were like, you 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.917 know, it's a it's whole, the whole model is flawed. 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.037 >> So, you're putting slop. >> You're putting slop. 00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:09.157 >> And it's like, bro, like it's great that we're funding things. 00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:13.557 Like what even if you think that, what is better in this world than the 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:17.237 transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas 00:23:17.320 --> 00:23:20.477 and want to build something. Like even if we're wrong about everything, like 00:23:20.560 --> 00:23:24.397 that's still a good for humanity. So, like shut up to you, hater. 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.677 >> Yes. >> Idiots. >> Yes. >> Hater hater. 00:23:26.760 --> 00:23:31.997 So, yeah, and then and then you know, that that's a great thing to 00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:34.517 my response was no, like that's a great thing to 00:23:34.600 --> 00:23:36.637 great thing to get criticized for is we're funding startups and supporting 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:38.357 those startups. Like that's fantastic. 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:40.317 >> There's a kind of point within that that 00:23:40.400 --> 00:23:44.717 is also kind of a an important change in new media, which is you really want 00:23:44.800 --> 00:23:48.117 people to hate you and you want people to love you, but you don't want to be 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:50.197 neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm. 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:52.517 Um, because then you're uninteresting. 00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:55.277 So, you're only you can't be interesting and not have 00:23:55.360 --> 00:23:58.557 people both hate you and love you. Just cuz there's too much 00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:03.077 no matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just hatred in the world to 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.157 not have it be that, cuz as soon as you get big 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:10.277 that's what happens. There there's nobody I used to when people used to get 00:24:10.360 --> 00:24:13.557 upset about like things that were written about us, I said like nobody's 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:17.317 nobody writes a puff piece on like Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:20.597 never going to happen again. Like it's over. When you get to a certain size, 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:25.117 people hate you. Um, and that's good, cuz that means you did it. You did 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:27.717 something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're 00:24:27.800 --> 00:24:30.077 doing. And you have to take it that way. 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.717 If you take it like oh, I got to stop doing that so people 00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:36.597 like me, you'll you'll ruin your marketing. 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.077 Yeah. >> The Mark Mark you since I've said the 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:44.277 term you know, they have all the right enemies. So, it's picking, you know, the 00:24:44.360 --> 00:24:47.557 right people to hate you that galvanizes the people who love you. 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.357 The what about building the right marketing and media team in 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.437 the age of new media? What what have you guys learned or what advice do you have 00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:58.637 for for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.077 the right personality. What what's the principle you think about the building 00:25:01.160 --> 00:25:03.557 that team? >> Well, the first principle 00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:06.957 is if you're trained in old media, it's 00:25:07.040 --> 00:25:09.877 very very very hard to 00:25:09.960 --> 00:25:14.677 do new media. Um so, you have to be a very exceptional person to make that 00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:18.397 transition because it's like 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.197 if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics, there are 00:25:22.280 --> 00:25:26.237 rules of the game, there's things that you do every single time in terms of, 00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:27.677 you know, like 00:25:27.760 --> 00:25:31.357 you know, from vetting reporters to uh 00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.317 rude Q&As to this and that like 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.677 everything about it is opposite world. 00:25:36.760 --> 00:25:40.637 And so, there are very few people who can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of 00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:44.437 opposite world and I'm going into a new media world." 00:25:44.520 --> 00:25:47.437 So, you just have to be careful about 00:25:47.520 --> 00:25:49.077 for the new media side of what you're 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:52.357 doing to hire too much experience in not 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.157 new media. Uh it looks like marketing, 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:00.677 but it's not the same. Uh it's a completely new skill set, so 00:26:00.760 --> 00:26:05.157 I I I would say like that's that's probably the thing that I'd worry about 00:26:05.240 --> 00:26:08.757 the most. Um and then, you know, like with Eric, what 00:26:08.840 --> 00:26:13.157 we looked for when we brought you on, for example, is 00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:16.517 the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some 00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:19.557 brand on something and some audience. Do 00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:21.317 you know how to build an audience? 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.877 Um because that's the core core thing. 00:26:23.960 --> 00:26:27.677 Uh and if you can't do that, then you know, it doesn't matter if you've 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:31.357 got this skill and that skill and the other skill, you've got you you have to 00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:33.837 be able to deliver it end-to-end. 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:35.237 >> Yep. And in terms of people we've 00:26:35.320 --> 00:26:37.437 brought on, you know, like uh Alex Danco 00:26:37.520 --> 00:26:42.877 or uh Henry or or Brent, you know, they um they're product managers or founders 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.117 or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse, the you know, they 00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:49.717 were listening to the podcast, they were writing themselves. You could tell in 00:26:49.800 --> 00:26:51.397 the proof of work even though they weren't doing the thing. 00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.957 >> Yeah, so story like storytelling >> on your new media team, that that's such 00:26:55.040 --> 00:26:58.877 a good point. So, the reason why Alex is so good is like he's a world-class 00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:03.077 storyteller. Like so, forget like just take marketing out of it for a second. 00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:06.637 Like can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or 00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:11.117 whatever? And that's that's a real skill. And like 00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.597 the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.837 that. And the people who can't do it, by 00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:19.877 the way, can never do it like that. And 00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:22.637 many people from kind of old marketing 00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:25.557 world don't have that skill because 00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.317 you know, you always would rely on uh whatever the principal, the CEO, the 00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.157 somebody for that story. Um but if you can build a team that's 00:27:34.240 --> 00:27:39.917 got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost. 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:41.917 >> By the way, there's a really big disconnect that goes back to the 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.437 authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of 00:27:44.520 --> 00:27:47.037 media sphere think about this cuz every reporter listening to what we're saying 00:27:47.120 --> 00:27:49.317 would be like, "Oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's 00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:53.037 propaganda." Um and and the and the mainstream press, traditional press does 00:27:53.120 --> 00:27:56.197 journalism. Um and the and if you're doing any kind of like direct anything, 00:27:56.280 --> 00:27:58.757 it's it's propaganda. And you you know, it's it's go to go it's just marketing. 00:27:58.840 --> 00:28:01.317 It's just trying to, you know, kind of sell something. 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.197 >> [snorts] >> Um and like I would say that's a 00:28:03.280 --> 00:28:06.917 division distinction that we 100% don't agree with. Um and you know, there's 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.837 there's critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much 00:28:09.920 --> 00:28:11.197 >> [snorts] >> um you know, what what even they would 00:28:11.280 --> 00:28:13.557 describe as objective journalism anymore. But the the but the positive 00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.117 side of it is I think it goes right back to one of the reasons you want to be 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.597 authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.637 are. Um you want to have people actually understand what you do. And you want 00:28:21.720 --> 00:28:24.757 people to actually understand the the the context within which you're you're 00:28:24.840 --> 00:28:28.237 doing what you're doing. So, you you you want to actually explain yourself and 00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:31.477 you want to explain the world. Um and like when you talk about storytelling, 00:28:31.560 --> 00:28:34.637 like it's it's it's very much not like storytelling like a made-up story. It's 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.517 storytelling of like here's what's actually happening. Um in an interesting 00:28:38.600 --> 00:28:43.797 way >> with tension, with a beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:45.197 interested in following the whole way. 00:28:45.280 --> 00:28:47.477 >> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a consequence, and we we really look for 00:28:47.560 --> 00:28:49.957 this is like when you know, look when Ben when Ben and I get like stuff from 00:28:50.040 --> 00:28:53.277 the street like when we're just like we routinely get told like a wow, I you 00:28:53.360 --> 00:28:56.677 know, I I I I watched the podcast. I saw this interview. I read that post this or 00:28:56.760 --> 00:29:00.437 that from the firm. And 100% time they're like, "Wow, like that was great. 00:29:00.520 --> 00:29:04.117 I really understand what that topic is about." Right? And and that that and 00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:08.077 that and and that's that's a very honest and legitimate and you know, 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:12.677 positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest positive legitimate you know, 00:29:12.760 --> 00:29:16.557 action action on our part. And I just think again I I maybe put the other the 00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:18.797 other way to put this is that this isn't just something people should do. This is 00:29:18.880 --> 00:29:21.717 like I think a responsibility that for people in our world and the people in 00:29:21.800 --> 00:29:25.157 tech now to do which is like the changes that are happening. I mean of all times 00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.117 the changes that are happening in tech right now are are profound. 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.197 And they're really hard to understand from the outside and they're really 00:29:30.280 --> 00:29:32.997 complicated. And there's huge amounts of noise in the environment. And so 00:29:33.080 --> 00:29:36.317 actually explaining honestly, right? What what's actually 00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:40.157 going on. And I'll I'll just break break on our team. We we put a space SpaceX 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:44.037 post up today. Which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with 00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:47.837 writing it. I I cannot take any credit for it. 00:29:47.920 --> 00:29:50.557 And it it I I I mean the feedback I'm already getting is it's the best thing 00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:53.437 anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I and I think that's true. And it and it 00:29:53.520 --> 00:29:57.237 and it literally is it lays out like the actual truth. And I'm really proud of 00:29:57.320 --> 00:30:01.677 that. >> It's awesome. I want to close with some 00:30:01.760 --> 00:30:05.957 uh going deeper on some advice for for founders on the on on going direct. Uh 00:30:06.040 --> 00:30:10.597 Gabi, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs making and 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:12.877 things to avoid? >> I I would say there's there's two 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:15.437 mistakes that I commonly saw working 00:30:15.520 --> 00:30:20.197 with and they're sort of related. The first one is 00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:24.397 it can be very easy to do this too. It's a trap to fall into because the timeline 00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.797 feels so addicting, but a lot of founders 00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:32.157 really over index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:36.317 message right. Distribution is really just a multiplier 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:40.237 on the message. And so if the message is wrong, now you've amplified something 00:30:40.320 --> 00:30:44.397 that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your 00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:47.837 audience needs to hear or like as we've talked about, maybe worst of all, it's 00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:50.797 uninteresting. And now you've told everybody that you care about that 00:30:50.880 --> 00:30:54.557 you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would 00:30:54.640 --> 00:30:57.437 come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral or how do 00:30:57.520 --> 00:31:00.357 we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe 00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:01.917 Rogan and then not say the right thing. 00:31:02.000 --> 00:31:04.157 And this is maybe the worst thing ever. 00:31:04.240 --> 00:31:08.517 And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, 00:31:08.600 --> 00:31:13.117 right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong and you 00:31:13.200 --> 00:31:17.037 could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so uh that 00:31:17.120 --> 00:31:20.717 the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message 00:31:20.800 --> 00:31:24.597 right. And that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. 00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:28.037 And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually 00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:30.357 just figuring out how to do that. 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.037 Um and the way that I saw that is you can 00:31:34.120 --> 00:31:37.597 get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the 00:31:37.680 --> 00:31:40.837 outputs or the outcomes that you want to drive towards. And this is sort of 00:31:40.920 --> 00:31:44.717 paradoxical because the companies that are very successful 00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:48.117 struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.037 that you could say about your company, right? There's like so many milestones, 00:31:52.120 --> 00:31:54.157 the mission is really compelling, there's like a lot of different things 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.317 that you would want to say, but depending on what you're trying to 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.957 achieve, the thing that you want to say should probably be different, right? 00:32:00.040 --> 00:32:03.437 Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for 00:32:03.520 --> 00:32:09.037 your business. And so instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge 00:32:09.120 --> 00:32:10.437 massive everything that we could say. 00:32:10.520 --> 00:32:13.317 Let's just say it all right now and hope people remember 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.397 potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:17.157 identified that thing. Start with the 00:32:17.240 --> 00:32:20.757 outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a 00:32:20.840 --> 00:32:24.797 certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of 00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:28.877 engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:31.197 now you can kind of work backwards from there. Like we know who these people 00:32:31.280 --> 00:32:34.557 are, we know what they believe, we know what what they probably believe or need 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.197 to believe about us, and we know what 00:32:37.280 --> 00:32:42.117 feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them. And then we can 00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:44.437 work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point 00:32:44.520 --> 00:32:48.037 one, you pair that with really powerful distribution, and then you have a really 00:32:48.120 --> 00:32:51.557 winning strategy. >> And by the way, so a really important 00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.837 point in what Gabby said is that really determines how you have to 00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:59.397 put the team together because if you put together a team 00:32:59.480 --> 00:33:02.917 that you can't have a conversation with where 00:33:03.000 --> 00:33:07.717 you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then 00:33:07.800 --> 00:33:10.037 that you've kind of done yourself a 00:33:10.120 --> 00:33:12.957 disservice. You need the team to help 00:33:13.040 --> 00:33:16.317 make the story great before they go cuz 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:21.437 it's really easy to go, "Okay, market this, you know, empty box." Um 00:33:21.520 --> 00:33:24.357 there are a few marketers who could probably do that, but like it's it's 00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:28.117 hard. Uh so you you really want 00:33:28.200 --> 00:33:32.637 the team to be invested in the message, and then all the variations you need to 00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:37.597 distribute that message are going to be really good and on point. Um but if the 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:42.677 team is kind of doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult. 00:33:42.760 --> 00:33:45.717 >> Mark, one of the things we we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio 00:33:45.800 --> 00:33:48.757 company the other week was we you admire about people like, you 00:33:48.840 --> 00:33:52.917 know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to also not just 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:56.557 focus on what they're doing, but also go outside in and talk about what's 00:33:56.640 --> 00:33:58.917 happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview, their their 00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:01.957 company, their product, etc. Within that, would you talk a little bit about 00:34:02.040 --> 00:34:03.917 that principle and how do people get good at it? 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:09.317 >> Yeah, so the most uh kind of uh common VC story, so marketing story is, "Oh, I 00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.597 met this great founder, and we went on a walk, and then I called him eight times, 00:34:12.680 --> 00:34:16.237 and like I thought he was great, and I eventually convinced him to take money." 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:19.917 The most common, you know, startup story is, "Oh, we're brand new company. We're 00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:22.317 all fired up. We're ready to go. It's going to be great. We have a new 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.077 product, you know, we hope you try it." 00:34:24.160 --> 00:34:26.517 And I mean, those stories just make you want to stab yourself in the neck, 00:34:26.600 --> 00:34:30.237 right? I mean, like as in the like it's just like, "Oh my god." Like that is 00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.917 just the lamest story in the world. Um and and I 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:37.277 >> By the way, details, well, one of the keys on this is like good storytellers 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.717 have great details. Details matter a 00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:44.357 lot. And so, the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it like so horrible is 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:48.837 like no details, just like blah, blah, blah, I'm so great. Uh, you know, I 00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:52.157 talked to the founder, he really liked me. You'll probably really like me, too. 00:34:52.240 --> 00:34:55.317 Like, what who who cares? >> And and it's it's almost right, it's 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:57.477 almost the thing where they they they come across as like it's like fake 00:34:57.560 --> 00:35:00.277 humble, right? Cuz it's just like, oh, I'm >> Or you they they say 00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:04.517 >> I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by >> [laughter] 00:35:04.600 --> 00:35:07.077 >> That's the most fake humble thing in the world. I'm humbled by 00:35:07.160 --> 00:35:09.117 >> You're not even remotely humble. 00:35:09.200 --> 00:35:13.837 >> Um, and so, um, yeah, and so, that it's just it's just it's just the worst. And 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.477 you know, there's there's a whole bunch of critiques. It's it's sort of yeah, 00:35:16.560 --> 00:35:19.197 it's fake bragging. It's it's boring. 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:22.877 Um, it's you know, it's egocentric. It to to no purpose. 00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.797 Um, and you know, it's a passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's 00:35:25.880 --> 00:35:27.997 just it's indistinguishable. Like, there's just a thousand I mean, it's 00:35:28.080 --> 00:35:30.677 just it's every it's every single startup. It's every single 00:35:30.760 --> 00:35:32.757 >> Everybody can gaze at their navel, right? 00:35:32.840 --> 00:35:35.677 >> Everybody can do that. Like, there's nobody who can't do that. So, that's 00:35:35.760 --> 00:35:37.917 that's not a differentiated story. 00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:40.597 >> Yeah, and so, and and so, that's like the default kind of narrative that 00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:43.717 people fall into. And then and then it also like it feels I think it actually 00:35:43.800 --> 00:35:46.317 feels like doing anything bigger than that is like arrogant cuz it's just 00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:48.717 like, who are we to like go tell some bigger thing? And I don't even know what 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:50.837 the bigger thing would be. And like, aren't the people who tell the bigger 00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.877 thing full of themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger? And 00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:56.277 so, there's just this like really reluctance to kind of expand the you 00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:59.917 know, kind of expand the expand the expand the telescope out. Um 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.357 And so, but what I would tell people is um like the exact opposite of the of of all 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.117 of that is true, which is like the story of you and your startup is not 00:36:07.200 --> 00:36:10.357 inherently a an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting 00:36:10.440 --> 00:36:13.597 story that involves your startup. And that story is and it's sort of the cheat 00:36:13.680 --> 00:36:16.197 code of it. The story is something else in the world that's happening that is 00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:19.557 incredibly interesting. Um, that your company relates to. 00:36:19.640 --> 00:36:21.757 >> And then yeah, by the way, the grand 00:36:21.840 --> 00:36:24.797 wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you 00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:29.037 watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir. The only thing he ever 00:36:29.120 --> 00:36:33.077 says about Palantir, Mark pointed this out to me is ontology and orchestration, 00:36:33.160 --> 00:36:34.847 two words that nobody knows what they mean. 00:36:34.930 --> 00:36:38.677 >> [laughter] >> And and like nobody knows what Palantir 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:43.117 does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like 00:36:43.200 --> 00:36:47.557 you know, like the future of the US military, Palantir. 00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.757 Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.317 whatever the story is that's like really 00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:55.397 good, like Alex will go tell that story. 00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:59.220 Neurodivergence. >> [laughter] 00:36:59.520 --> 00:37:01.997 >> He's he's just like 00:37:02.080 --> 00:37:06.677 whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about and then because 00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:08.597 he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO 00:37:08.680 --> 00:37:12.557 of Palantir, like that just works and 00:37:12.640 --> 00:37:16.437 I I say it like kind of facetious, but like 00:37:16.520 --> 00:37:18.077 it's really a good strategy. Now, he 00:37:18.160 --> 00:37:21.397 takes it to the very extreme. Um but 00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:23.477 like that that's the right idea to find 00:37:23.560 --> 00:37:28.877 the most interesting story that you can that you can plug your company into and 00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:31.757 then tell that story. >> Yeah, because because what happens is 00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:34.437 then when something happens, right? When something happens in the world, 00:37:34.520 --> 00:37:37.557 something happens involving US military, AI in the military, this or that, 00:37:37.640 --> 00:37:40.717 geopolitics or China, like he's like the first phone call, right? Cuz he's like 00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:42.397 he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that. 00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:45.197 >> way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience who's done a phenomenal job of that. 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:47.077 >> good at that. Exactly, yes. Yes. Yes. 00:37:47.160 --> 00:37:49.797 Right, the difference between talking about freight versus talking about the 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:52.037 global supply chain is completely collapsing during COVID and we're all 00:37:52.120 --> 00:37:53.447 going to starve to death. Right? 00:37:53.530 --> 00:37:56.637 [laughter] And then and then and then therefore 00:37:56.720 --> 00:37:59.357 he's the guy who literally goes on 60 minutes to explain to the world that in 00:37:59.440 --> 00:38:02.397 fact yes, we are we all are about to starve to death. 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:05.597 Um from the helicopter, right? Is that Is that Yes, from the from the 00:38:05.680 --> 00:38:08.477 helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships that are never landing. Uh your your 00:38:08.560 --> 00:38:14.407 children are about to starve. Um by Flexport. Um 00:38:14.490 --> 00:38:16.517 >> [laughter] >> So it works incredibly well and then the other 00:38:16.600 --> 00:38:18.837 >> And you don't even have to say by Flexport. It just happens. 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:21.957 >> It's implicit. It's implicit. And then um and then the the other thing 00:38:22.040 --> 00:38:24.477 especially especially for enterprise anything involving enterprise sales 00:38:24.560 --> 00:38:27.477 which is certainly Flexport but also Palantir is just like a big part of it 00:38:27.560 --> 00:38:30.397 is are you important enough to like meet with the CEO of your customer? Like are 00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.277 are you important enough to get in the room with the decision maker? Are you 00:38:33.360 --> 00:38:35.757 are you important enough to meet with the Secretary of War? Are you important 00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:36.877 enough to like be in the White House? 00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:40.917 Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know, I just I 00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:43.357 have a you know, I have a little startup that's doing interesting things that's 00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:48.597 not do that but I am attached to and you have seen me talk about like the big 00:38:48.680 --> 00:38:50.757 important things that are happening in the world and how they relate and that 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:54.077 you have you know, potentially an answer to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like 00:38:54.160 --> 00:38:55.797 every every every everybody wants that. 00:38:55.880 --> 00:38:58.757 And so yeah, so the way I describe this is just you know, the the the the the 00:38:58.840 --> 00:39:02.317 trick kind of is don't don't everybody just naturally thinks inside out me and 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:04.957 my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in 00:39:05.040 --> 00:39:06.877 terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the 00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:11.157 world and then what and then how and then and then how do those things relate to us? 00:39:11.240 --> 00:39:14.277 >> And and by the way, this is where um 00:39:14.360 --> 00:39:18.677 CEOs go off the rails cuz they're so focused on what they're doing. 00:39:18.760 --> 00:39:23.277 Um that all they want to do is tell their story and they're not even paying 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:26.557 attention to what's going on in the world which is understandable cuz you're 00:39:26.640 --> 00:39:31.477 trying to build something but to do the marketing exercise investing 00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:35.517 in understanding what's happening out there is just 00:39:35.600 --> 00:39:37.797 critically important. You can't do it without that. 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:39.037 >> This by the way happens also in investor 00:39:39.120 --> 00:39:42.437 relations. So every company you know, this every public company by law does 00:39:42.520 --> 00:39:46.317 these you know, S1 K1 [snorts] Q whatever Q they they do all these things 00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.837 and they like fully have you you know, spend all this time and all this effort 00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:51.477 and these these documents is filing fully explain everything the company 00:39:51.560 --> 00:39:55.197 does and they have every possible you know, hedge and me a culpa and I'll just 00:39:55.280 --> 00:39:57.477 like these incredible descriptions of people but and then and then there are 00:39:57.560 --> 00:40:01.197 the the annual letters and the >> [snorts] >> and all this stuff. What percentage of 00:40:01.280 --> 00:40:03.117 the investors in you know, Palantir have 00:40:03.200 --> 00:40:04.077 read the 00:40:04.160 --> 00:40:08.997 S1 K1, right? Like you know, 0.0001% 00:40:09.080 --> 00:40:11.717 What percentage have seen Alex you know, on YouTube doing his thing? 00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:12.997 >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, 100%. 00:40:13.080 --> 00:40:14.477 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time 00:40:14.560 --> 00:40:16.717 that goes into that document. Right. 00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:20.357 And so you just take that time and just 00:40:20.440 --> 00:40:24.077 understand enough about the world to put together a good story. 00:40:24.160 --> 00:40:28.397 >> On on that note, we'll end with the this idea that um the skill set is is not 00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.237 only something you're you're born with you're not it can be developed and 00:40:31.320 --> 00:40:34.197 learned and cultivated. I mean Mark you were saying the other day that when you 00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:38.117 look back at Alex Karp's old interviews they're they're very different. And so 00:40:38.200 --> 00:40:42.357 when you look at you know Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who who came 00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:44.957 here earlier um you look back at their old tweets or 00:40:45.040 --> 00:40:48.517 their old interviews and they're they're nowhere close to you know where they were. 00:40:48.600 --> 00:40:52.237 >> Oh yeah, it's a skill set for sure. Um and look there there are people who are 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.757 gifted and then people are less good. If you look at Donald Trump's interviews in 00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:00.077 the 80s they're very old media interviews. He's actually 00:41:00.160 --> 00:41:03.877 restrained. >> [laughter] 00:41:03.960 --> 00:41:08.677 >> And then you know like he did figure out new media and he's always like super 00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:13.397 entertaining and interesting which is kind of the the magic of his uh 00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:17.917 of his popularity. Um so even like at that level you can 00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:21.637 develop it. >> Yeah. On that note, it's a great place to 00:41:21.720 --> 00:41:24.077 wrap. Let's do a round of applause for Gabby, Ben, and Mark. 00:41:24.160 --> 00:41:27.120 >> Thank you. >> [applause]