1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,877 One rule of old media's don't be interested. 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:04,877 Like that's the worst thing you can do. 3 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,277 There is no way to get to anything resembling a story that you're going to 4 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:10,637 like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's just basically not 5 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,757 possible. Old media you had very 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,357 restricted channels with very restricted 7 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,717 formats. New media is unlimited formats 8 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,877 on unlimited channels and the brand is 9 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:25,597 now the person. The grand wizard of this 10 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,877 is Alex Karp. If you watch his interviews, he never talks about volunteering. 11 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,717 >> Everybody just naturally thinks inside out, me and my company and my product 12 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:35,957 out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in terms of like what are the 13 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:38,677 most interesting things happening in the world and then how do those things 14 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,317 relate to us? >> Old media is defense oriented. New media is offense. 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:43,997 >> Talk Talk more about why that is. 16 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,637 >> There's still this anxiety that people have which is legacy media somehow is 17 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:50,237 like where the respectability is, the prestige is. I don't believe that 18 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:52,557 anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get that out of 19 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,040 their system. 20 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,397 >> So first I would just want to say it's Gabby's birthday today. You know, I'm so 21 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,837 excited for the next one in five for many reasons, but one is that Ben had 22 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:05,517 floor seats to the game six and wasn't going to make it today and so we're so 23 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,757 lucky that we get to have Ben here. 24 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,557 And uh you know, Mark not a huge basketball guy, but he he did tweet 25 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,597 about how Jaylen Brunson he had a 26 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:20,997 comment where that he operates purely on instincts not on introspection and Mark 27 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,797 appreciates that. >> Richard Nixon obviously working. 28 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:28,757 >> Exactly. Many people are saying you know, across across industries. And so I 29 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:33,517 actually think that's a pretty interesting because one of the rules of of new media 30 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:35,477 um Mark that we were talking about with the 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,517 CEO last week in our growth portfolio is 32 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:42,637 authenticity and sort of being able to have the same conversations on camera 33 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,277 that you would have in person behind closed doors. 34 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:51,157 Why don't you talk about that that a bit more and and why that's so important to 35 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,837 to really nail in terms of nailing your voice and and how to build that 36 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,917 presence. Because a lot of lot of mistakes that founders will make trying 37 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,397 to be too buttoned up, trying to be too media trained, etc. As we uncover the 38 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,397 new rules of new media, what what do you start there? 39 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,197 >> Yeah, so I had this really formative experience when I was younger. So in the 40 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,757 '90s when I was coming up Ben and I were coming up. And so you know, in in in 41 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:13,917 those days it you know, it's pre pre blogs, pre YouTube, all all this stuff. 42 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,517 Um and so in those days you know, the assumption was 100% of what you did if 43 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,237 you were running a company or doing anything was you you're going to have to 44 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,117 work through you know, established media, legacy media. 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,797 Um and so and and then everybody would get you know, of course media you know, 46 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:31,037 media trained in how to do it. And you >> Most painful experience in the world. 47 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,477 >> Oh yeah, so for people who haven't been through media training it's actually 48 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,117 >> Watch yourself on TV it's a >> Yeah, so okay, so here's how media 49 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:38,717 training work. I I don't know if they still 50 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,677 I don't know if they still do it but do they do they still do it? You guys still 51 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:42,837 do it? Okay, okay, so for people who haven't been 52 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:46,287 through it. Yeah, so it's like you get put in front of one of these camera 53 00:02:46,370 --> 00:02:47,837 >> [snorts] >> in your face and then and then somebody 54 00:02:47,920 --> 00:02:51,237 like you know, who's supposed to who you think is your friend. Um you know, they 55 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,677 do like the full 60 minutes interview with you. And and and you know, whatever 56 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,037 and then they you know, they do it for like an hour. And then and then they 57 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,387 literally make you sit there and watch it. 58 00:02:59,470 --> 00:03:01,677 >> [snorts] >> Which is just like the meanest thing you can do to somebody. 59 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:05,317 >> And and critique you and you're looking at yourself [__] it up and they're going 60 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,597 you see how you [__] that up? [laughter] And you're like well, I'm really 61 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:10,717 uncomfortable now. I'm never going on TV. 62 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,317 >> Exactly. And you're like can we just fast No, you can't fast forward. We're 63 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,117 going to watch the entire thing. 64 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,877 Um and then and then maybe we'll watch it again. Um and so it is it is very 65 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,917 revealing. And you discover all kinds of things about your personal effort by the 66 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,517 way. Also you discover all the things you do, all the extra words. 67 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:25,917 >> How much you hate your voice. 68 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,357 >> Yes, exactly. How much you hate how you look. I mean it's incredible. It's 69 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,237 incredible. And so if your ego just survives the beating, you go on to a 70 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,277 successful career. Um and so you know, that's what you did. And and then and 71 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,357 then but it was always so weird cuz it's like the result is just like I just 72 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,357 always struck me as just like the result is like wow, you see like important 73 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,357 people with important things to say on TV whatever they just seem like plastic 74 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:48,717 people. They just seem like you know, it's all very you know, fake and staged. 75 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:50,877 And then by the way, you know, this is like you know, in the old days it's like 76 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,717 you know, cuz all all the all the anchor people or interviewers are all like you 77 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,117 know, using you know, anchorman voice. 78 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,157 And then you get a CEO up there who just says like the most innocuous things 79 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,037 possible. Um and a lot of CEOs in those days and by the way, still they they 80 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,277 they they rank their success in in in doing an interview or giving a speech 81 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,797 based on minimum minimum controversy, right? So, they come off stage. I I've 82 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:11,797 worked with lots of CEOs like they come off stage and they're very proud of 83 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,677 themselves cuz they didn't make any news. 84 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,357 Right? Um so it's sort of like that. And so >> [laughter] >> Yeah, that is a key. 85 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,477 >> Right. So, I go through the meeting and so >> All news is bad news. 86 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,317 >> So, I I get we we hire at the time a company we hired, you know, at the time 87 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:27,197 was considered the best media trainer uh who was a guy um uh who uh had 88 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,157 previously been a producer at at 60 Minutes. You know, >> Lee Les Elden. 89 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:31,877 >> We Lee Les Elden who'd been a producer. 90 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,797 He actually he was he was actually quite quite a well-known guy at the time. Um 91 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,517 he had been uh Lowell Bergman's producer and Lowell Bergman became uh Lowell 92 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,637 Bergman No, um well, there I mean, Mike Wallace it was that whole complex. But 93 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,077 he's like he's like, "We're not doing any of the classic media training that 94 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:46,237 we do." He said, "We're going to do the thing that everybody always under rates, 95 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,037 which is we're going to get you to basically just say all the things in 96 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,157 public that you would say if you were sitting having lunch with a friend." 97 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,677 Right? And I remember like the back of my head like, you know, just like blew 98 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,157 open cuz it's just like, "Okay." And then you know, and then and then 99 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:01,557 immediately you're like, "Okay, why are we paying this guy that And it's like 100 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:03,957 you know, cuz that's like very obvious advice and then it's like nobody else 101 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,397 will give you that advice. What the what's going on?" He just said, "Look." 102 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,037 He said He said He said the following. 103 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,437 He said, "If if you are on stage or in an interview and you were talking about 104 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:13,957 something and you don't know that topic inside out already, like what the hell 105 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,117 are you doing there? So, the only thing that you should ever be talking about is 106 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,437 something that you know you know intimately. If you know it intimately, 107 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,357 you should be able to talk about it in a viscerally interesting uh way. Um you 108 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,077 know, that really relate you know, relates your thoughts on the thing. And 109 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,117 you ought to be able to come across as a very interesting person because you're 110 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:30,997 talking you know, it's just like if you're sitting across the table talking 111 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,437 to your friend. And so he's like, "My my training is a 100% to try to get you to 112 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,237 not do all the other stuff and basically be able to do that." 113 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,597 Um and then you know, the other part cuz this you assume the media is 114 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,117 adversarial. The other part was then you know, the the forget what he called the 115 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,117 pivot or whatever, which was basically just the you know, the thing of like you 116 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,517 you answer their questions. You always answer your own questions, which is a 117 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,437 bit that >> Which by the way makes it a little unnatural, right? 118 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,797 >> It does. It's [clears throat] the Jedi It's the Jedi but it's the Jedi knight 119 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,117 thing that that made that whole approach work, which is it's just like, okay, 120 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,237 you're talking naturally. Well, one of the ways you talk naturally is you just 121 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,797 refuse to answer the the bad questions and you just substitute in your good 122 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,997 question. Anyway, so he he went through the whole thing and so then then I you 123 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,397 know, we've been watching the evolution of the whole you know, the whole the 124 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,717 whole new media landscape for 30 years and it's just like, wow, if you watch 125 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,597 what Palmer Lucky does or if you watch what you know, 126 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:15,757 Alex Karp does or if you watch what Elon does or you watch what any of the great 127 00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:18,517 communicators do, like that's what they're doing. You know, I'd say put 128 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,277 Jensen in the in the in the in that rank you know, lately. It's just like, wow, 129 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,477 it's like and and by the way, you know, this is the rise of the long form 130 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:27,077 podcast, you know, the three-hour conversation 131 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:31,077 and and and then just you know, by the way, the sort of re-rise of the idea of 132 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,637 just like interesting people having interesting conversations, which you 133 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,677 know, was very [snorts] radical at one point, which is now now a common thing. 134 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,277 And so I I think that remains the the actual advice and of course Eric, your 135 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,837 point what that gets across is is authenticity, which is like, okay, am I 136 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,317 you know, in addition to what's being said, do I actually as the viewer 137 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:51,357 audience, do I actually feel like I'm meeting a real person? 138 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,997 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very good points. 139 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,677 >> Related we've been talking about how old media 140 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,877 is defense oriented, new media is offense. 141 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,877 Talk more about why that is and what that playbook looks like. One of the 142 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,277 things we were talking about more also in that meeting is the importance of of 143 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,397 outside in and situating sort of your story within the context of what's 144 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,277 what's happening externally. >> Yeah, so the the the the press in my 145 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,557 view and and and reporters get furious with me when I say this, which is why I 146 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:22,677 know that I'm correct. The traditional press legacy press defined 147 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:23,957 itself as having two functions, right? 148 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,437 Which one was you know, impartial journalism, 149 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,637 objective journalism. Sometimes called the voice from nowhere, which meant you 150 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:31,797 know, presenting both sides of something. 151 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,717 By the way, under the assumption that everything has two sides. And and by the 152 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,997 way, not more than two sides. And so that there's always something a little 153 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:41,077 bit weird about that. But you know, at least the idea of like showing an issue, 154 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,597 explaining it, articulating it, letting different spokespeople, you know, for 155 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,117 the different different points of view actually say it. Um, and then they had 156 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,317 this the second mission was to speak speak truth to power. 157 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,597 >> Yeah, that that was the one that got in the way of the first one. 158 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:52,357 >> the one that got in the way of the first 159 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,797 one. So, speak truth to power and that became the way the way they ended up 160 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,837 describing that was it was uh uh com- uh uh uh afflict the comfortable and 161 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:00,397 comfort the afflicted. >> [snorts] >> Yeah. 162 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,357 >> Right. Uh and of course, you know, at this point we we know what that means. 163 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:04,837 >> Um >> Yeah. 164 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,397 >> But it devolved into uh power to truth. 165 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,277 So, it it's like the press's way of intimidating you into not saying what 166 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,677 you thought. Um so. >> Yeah, the the the the the Yeah, 167 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,077 they right cuz there's a line between like it's a line between actually 168 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:20,997 objective and then and then and then activist, right? So, somebody with a uh 169 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,557 somebody with an agenda. Um and so I I think I'm my view is what happened over 170 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:27,117 time is that that second one just like swamped the first one and then it just 171 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,277 became the thing and and then as a consequence, like just the the very 172 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,357 nature of the interaction changed. Now, yeah, I mean, the short version is I I, 173 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:38,517 you know, I I did tons of traditional media between 1994 and 2017. And you 174 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,037 know, every once in a while there's the hit piece or bad, you know, bad faith 175 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,157 thing or whatever, but like I don't know, 90% of the time I felt like it had 176 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,877 been a good idea to do it and I felt like, you know, I'd been given a a 177 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,437 chance to tell tell my thing. By the way, for for almost that entire 178 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,797 run, most people in the country and in the press thought starters were kind of 179 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,717 cool and tech was kind of cool and kind of fun and it was kind of good for 180 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,197 America that there were these tech companies and the products were kind of 181 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,517 fun to use. >> I I I kind of remember those days. 182 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,637 >> Yeah, yes, in the in the in the ancient mists of the past, you know, they they 183 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,477 just, you know, and it was exci- you know, it was everything was exciting. 184 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,077 And then the you know, then a lot of reporters and editors and you know, they 185 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:13,437 they genuinely viewed it as like, "Oh, we need to like explain this to our 186 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,877 readers and our viewers and really really have this come across." And then 187 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:21,757 as as we like to say, like in 2017, it things changed. Um and basically since 188 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,757 then, my view is that that sort of second mode of of of being, um 189 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,637 you know, which is the sort of agenda-driven, you know, kind of really 190 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:32,557 took over which which I think and I think probably will never never actually unwind. 191 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,357 Um and so it's just the practical reality is we always tell the founders 192 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,117 like there there is no way um to get to anything resembling a story 193 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,117 that you're going to like through the traditional media anymore. Like it's 194 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,877 just it it it's it's basically not possible." Um you know, every once in a 195 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:49,277 while >> And you can land a story, but you can't run a strategy, yeah. 196 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,837 >> Yeah, like you there there are also some people people point to individuals 197 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,077 individuals with success and I'll just feel like, "Okay, that's the you know, 198 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,997 that's the exception that proves the rule." Like you know, there's 99 others 199 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,637 um you know, that are not like that. And so there there just needs needs to be a 200 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,757 new approach. Then I think the new approach is comes in comes in two parts. 201 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,077 It it comes in you know, what as we all call now go direct, which is you have to 202 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,597 tell your own story increasingly through your own channels and through the 203 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,277 channels of allies. And then the other thing is you know, new voices and new 204 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:16,197 media. Um and because because the legacy press has gone so bananas, 205 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:20,037 you know, obviously there's this just massive opportunity that's opened up uh 206 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,277 you know, for for for the creation of new media and it's just like the 207 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,197 examples meant you know, many many of them are in this room are just 208 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:29,757 spectacular. I think I think with what's happening. Well, it it used to be it's 209 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,117 actually really funny. It used to be even in the golden age media like 210 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:36,077 Charlie like if you wanted to watch a smart person talk about something for an 211 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,237 hour, it was Charlie Rose. And when I was a kid in the '80s, it was Charlie 212 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:44,037 Rose midnight. Um it was something called the CBS Overnight CBS News 213 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,517 Overnight and he was literally on at midnight and I would and this was like, 214 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,637 you know, pre-the-VCR you'd stay up until midnight to watch a smart 215 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,277 conversation. And and to go from that to what we have today with in in the 216 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,717 podcast world and the Substack world is just such an incredible advance. Um and 217 00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,997 going incredibly well. So I think the new media world is just supremely, you 218 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,517 know, just incredibly high quality, doing incredibly well. Um you know, but 219 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,717 but there's still this anxiety that people have, which is the legacy media 220 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,277 somehow is like where the I don't know I mean it it sounds so silly to say 221 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,437 anymore, but like the respectability is the prestige is. And I I always I don't 222 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,717 believe that anymore and I think it's very important for people to kind of get 223 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,117 that out of their system cuz the world has changed. 224 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,677 >> To your point, so we so we were just in Washington and so we were with like all 225 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:23,757 the kind of Washington people, senators 226 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:28,917 and whatnot. And I was asking them, you know, what does everybody in Washington 227 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:32,837 read? And it's the Mark Halperin newsletter, 228 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:37,317 um which is new media. Uh so, it's uh I fully 229 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:41,157 expect Axios, the Washington Post, and so forth. Cuz by the way, the one 230 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:45,877 holdout from you know, kind of people in the firm on like old media is, well, 231 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,037 except for Washington. They all read this old, you know, stuff. 232 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,757 And not even that is true. So, so I think Mark's right. 233 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,237 >> Yeah. >> Mark, you mentioned um going direct. 234 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,437 We're certainly in the era now of going direct. It feels like it's table stakes 235 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:05,637 for founders. Um but I've talked to a lot of founders who feel that now they 236 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:09,797 have sort of a second job of being the spokesperson for their company on top of 237 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,597 running the business day-to-day. And you can even think of a lot of great 238 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:18,517 founders who spent their lives or careers in a lab or staring at a computer, and 239 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,997 this is not what they've been trained in. So, I'm curious both of your advice 240 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,477 for founders who maybe are uninterested in doing this, or they don't know where 241 00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,517 to start. Do they have to get good at it, or are there other paths for them to 242 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,837 get their company the attention it deserves? 243 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,157 >> Yeah. So, I think this is tricky. So, 244 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,717 if you if you just go, okay, old media, and how did that work in new media? So, 245 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,157 old media, um 246 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,317 you had like very restricted channels 247 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,757 with very restricted formats, 248 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,517 um and the brands were the companies. 249 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,717 So, like that that that's basically the 250 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,237 setup. So, you yes, you could talk to 251 00:12:56,320 --> 00:12:58,837 the New York Times or CNN or whatever if 252 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,717 you wanted to get the word out, um but then you were forced into like a quote 253 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,077 or a very short interview or something like that. And then you were representing 254 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,997 um a brand that wasn't you, and that's just 255 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:14,117 kind of how it worked. 256 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,037 And so, the whole media strategy, 257 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,157 basically, was just get your name out there without 258 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,797 tainting the company to the point where like it could never recover. Uh which is 259 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,957 kind of how you got into this very defensive posture cuz you you can never 260 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,597 take back anything. That was like a big rule in old media. Then you get to new 261 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:37,317 media and new media is 262 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,557 so the opposite in that it's unlimited 263 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,357 formats, unlimited channels, and the 264 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,477 brand is now the person. So, it's not 265 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:49,557 like were people talking about like when 266 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:53,357 every Democrat came out and was mad about SpaceX, they weren't they were mad 267 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,677 about Elon cuz he's a brand. And the same thing like is is it 268 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,557 Palantir or is it Alex? Um, 269 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,237 and is it 270 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,037 uh, Anduril or is it Palmer? And 271 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,237 that's just over and over again. So, the 272 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,597 companies that are winning in marketing, 273 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:13,517 the brand is the person. 274 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,037 And I guess like if you had another founder 275 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,357 or somebody who is a really permanent fixture and not the CEO, you could 276 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:26,117 imagine that person kind of getting that person off to the to be the brand, but 277 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,677 it's going to be a person. Like I I don't think there's a way around that. 278 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,877 And then the rule of new media is it has to be interesting because 279 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,237 otherwise it's going to get drowned out. 280 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,597 And so, you have to be it has to be a person and that person has to be 281 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,237 interesting. Uh, which is why old media is so dangerous because the one rule of 282 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:47,397 old media is don't be interested. 283 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,957 Like that's the worst thing you can do. 284 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,117 Um, you'll you'll F everything up. And so, 285 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,837 I I don't think uh, company can get away 286 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,277 without it. Now, like if you look at 287 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:04,037 like us as a firm, like technically I'm really the CEO, but like Mark is more 288 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,717 the brand, I would say in terms of he just does way more media than I do. Uh, 289 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,077 and that works, but it works cuz it's Andreessen Horowitz and nobody knows the 290 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,437 [__] difference on the outside. It's fine. Um, and there are you can set up 291 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,597 your company that way where they don't have to know how you're run. Like that's 292 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,477 fine. But it's got to be somebody who's 293 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:26,237 there kind of forever with uh, the organization. It can't be like 294 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,717 the vice president of marketing who's here for a three-year run and then is 295 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:31,157 gone. Like that will never work. 296 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,757 >> Enron is another example. >> Yeah. Yeah. What one of my favorite 297 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:35,837 favorite things that happens about once a week is when I get somebody 298 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:37,887 congratulates me on writing Ben's book. 299 00:15:37,970 --> 00:15:41,357 >> [laughter] >> But he always takes full credit for it. 300 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:42,877 >> I do. I do. I just like I said, I really 301 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:44,517 poured a lot of you know, all my blood, sweat, and tears into that [laughter] 302 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,197 book. I'm just so glad I'm so glad that somebody finally read it. Um So 303 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,477 um You know, look, so so I think there's a I think there's actually a technological 304 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,997 explanation for what Ben said that that is actually I think quite important. So, 305 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:01,157 you know, up until basically what was it been like the 1930s or something like 306 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,557 companies were not they didn't have corporate brands. You you you you had 307 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:05,997 you was the Ford you had you had people. 308 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,637 You know, it was the Ford Motor Company. 309 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,077 It was the It was the Edison Electric Company, 310 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,117 right? So, the the it was just like you know, name on the it was literally name 311 00:16:13,200 --> 00:16:15,757 on the door. It just it never even I mean, I'm positive it never occurred to 312 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,477 Henry Ford to name his company anything other than the Ford Motor Company. 313 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:21,197 >> Well, [snorts] he did have a company before the Ford Motor Company, right? 314 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,037 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which was like I think I can't remember. Somebody's got 315 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,677 to look it up. I think it became like Cadillac or something or like it was 316 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,317 like actually like a a car company that lasted. But he got he was CTO. He wasn't 317 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,957 CEO. And he got in such a furious fight cuz he was a 318 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:41,117 he was a hothead, Henry Ford. With the CEO that he quit his own company. 319 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,677 >> Yeah. A lot of those are Chrysler like Chrysler was a with the other guys. 320 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,877 You know, a lot of those a lot of the a lot of the car early car 321 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,397 >> Oh, yeah, they're all named after themselves. And I I I think actually 322 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,117 maybe it was like Ford and then he when he quit they renamed it. That that could 323 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,837 be it. Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah, something else. Yeah. So so it was 324 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,157 like it was like name on the door. 325 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,117 >> Yeah. >> Um it was just kind of just taken as as 326 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,237 as a given cuz like that's the guy running the company. That's that's 327 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,877 that's what you do. And then I I think what happened is in the '30s, '40s you 328 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,277 started getting these, you know, International Business Machines, General 329 00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,277 Electric, General Motors. General Motors. You started getting these these 330 00:17:09,360 --> 00:17:11,997 these abstract names. Then you and then you got the consumer brand thing, you 331 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,117 know, with like Procter & Gamble. So you had like Tide and Colgate and you know, 332 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,277 Crest toothpaste and all and a the and these things. The nifty 50 the 333 00:17:18,360 --> 00:17:20,957 conglomerate area. Which led you right, which led to the conglomerates which 334 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,957 were basically just piling up as many many brands as you could. And I and I 335 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,357 think what happened was in retrospect, I think that was because of the rise of 336 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,717 centralized media specifically. Cuz before the 1930s like media was very 337 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,397 decentralized. Like every town had like 15 newspapers. There were like tiny 338 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,637 little radio stations everywhere. 339 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,837 And then you know, starting in the 30s or 40s media centralized hard. You know, 340 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,917 in a way that was very unprecedented historically. And and and 341 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,917 probably what once once once once in a you know, it's probably [snorts] once in 342 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,397 a thousand year thing that that happened. And then and then the thing 343 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:50,717 with centralized media was just it's like it's like drinking everything 344 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,717 through an incredibly narrow straw. Cuz there's just like by definition if 345 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,397 there's three TV networks and there's 24 hours in the day, there's just only ever 346 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,357 like how much time are you ever going to get? Or if there's the front page of you 347 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,157 know, three big newspapers, how many column inches are you ever going to get? 348 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:05,717 And so the the message from any company had to get distilled down to the 349 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,677 absolute minimum to be able to get through those very narrow straws. And I 350 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,717 and I think that that was the corporate brand phenomenon which is to get the 351 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,357 thing down to like an atomic unit of a brand to be able to get it through to 352 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:17,997 get it through that straw. But I and then everybody became convinced that 353 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,757 like that was just universally the way the world worked. But I think that only 354 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,997 actually made sense. Uh so company as 355 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:28,157 abstract brand with like our corporate brand like I think that only made sense 356 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:31,077 in the centralized media world. And I think what we're seeing as the 357 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,397 centralized media world is now you know, unwinding and collapsing. I I I think 358 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,637 mechanically that's why this new approach is is is working and it and is 359 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,037 necessary because that's why. Because in the new world, I 360 00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:45,277 mean, you know, the many examples of this. But it's just like you know, do do 361 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:48,957 do do people running for president have to go on Joe Rogan, right? And you know, 362 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:53,197 up until 2024 the answer was absolutely not. After 2024 the answer is 100% they 363 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,637 have to. Uh right? Like a big part, you know, for keeping politics out of it, a 364 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,237 big part of all the democratic retrospectives of what happened in 24 365 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,757 was that was that Kamala didn't go on didn't go on Rogan. 100% of the people 366 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,157 who work in that world now think that the next person is going to have to go 367 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,517 on Rogan. And to go on Rogan means you're going to have to be on Rogan for 368 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:12,317 three hours. And you're going to have to talk about anything. And so if you think 369 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,437 about what that means, right, for the bar, for the person who's going to run, 370 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,077 you know, for whatever party, or you know, for both parties, or any party, 371 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,717 like that that's the new bar. Um you have to be able to do that. You have and 372 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,637 right, you have to be interesting, and then it goes right back to your 373 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,717 question. You you have to be the person who can do that. And if you're not the 374 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,997 person who can do that, like >> Well, you got to it's a big marketing 375 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,477 deficit. Let's just put it that way. 376 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,797 Like like you you just put a ceiling on your whole opportunity, I think. 377 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,557 >> The the line from Succession, of course, I I can't avoid that. 378 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,797 I can't not use answering your question is is it 379 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,637 Shiv said, "If you can't ride two elephants at the same time, what are you 380 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,197 doing in the circus?" >> [laughter] >> Yeah. 381 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:56,517 >> I I would love to hear how you apply this thinking to your own work. Then you 382 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,197 mentioned earlier or you mentioned before that you and Mark spend a lot of 383 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,277 time discussing how and when to respond 384 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,677 to things publicly and also when to not say anything. And so, I'm curious what 385 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,717 those discussions are like for you both. 386 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,117 How do you decide when to fight back versus stay quiet? And maybe if there 387 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,477 are times that you wish you did things differently. 388 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,197 >> Yeah, so I I I mean it it's interesting 389 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,797 with that because anytime somebody 390 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:26,837 says something negative about us, we want to respond. It's just like it it but 391 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:30,477 you you have to determine whether like that's going to improve your position or 392 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:35,797 they're just feeding you bait to get you to basically highlight their stupid 393 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,187 opinion. >> It'll always improve your situation to fight back. 394 00:20:39,270 --> 00:20:42,997 >> [laughter] >> Yeah, you always 100% 395 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,717 You know, you have to have some discipline, otherwise you just will 396 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,117 spend your whole life responding. Like the bigger you get, the more people can 397 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,557 at you. So, you know, it's kind of like 398 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,797 the degenerate version is like dealing 399 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,517 with the people who comment on Twitter. 400 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,357 Or X, sorry. Like So, the if you start answering the X replies of people who 401 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,387 have 50 followers, by the way, my father always did that. 402 00:21:05,470 --> 00:21:08,837 >> [laughter] >> Then like 403 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,917 there's just like a colossal waste of time and you're amplifying somebody who 404 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,597 has no audience. So like what are you doing? And then those people shouldn't 405 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,477 even be talking to you. Like they didn't do anything in life to have the right to 406 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,437 talk to you. Um but there you are talking to them and 407 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:28,637 wasting your time. So like that's that's the extreme degenerate case. Um However, 408 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,477 like if somebody comes out with something and it hits uh 409 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,077 and it's going after you, that's 410 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:36,757 actually a real op- opportunity to boost 411 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:41,357 the brand um to come across with your own point of view, 412 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,757 your own position. And this could be something in the media or just, you 413 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,277 know, something somebody does in new media. 414 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:50,397 Uh That that actually turns into real 415 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,317 opportunity. So a lot of you know, I would say 416 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,757 a reasonable portion of the brand that we built was just responding to people 417 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,677 attacking us. Uh so that I I always saw that every time 418 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,517 that happened as great Let's go. Like I one of my 419 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,317 favorite things I ever wrote was uh Instagram. We we got into like this 420 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,157 kerfuffle over Instagram with The New York Times. We had a conflict, whatever. 421 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,237 It was a thing. But then I responded um and it was like the biggest at that time 422 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,517 the biggest post I ever wrote and everybody was like, "Yeah, [__] The New 423 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,317 York Times." And so it was it it kind of 424 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,997 took us from here to here in one shot 425 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,597 just cuz everybody loves a fight. So fights are good for brand building. Um 426 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,757 but you just got to pick the right fight to not just build somebody else's brand. 427 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,637 >> Well, to that end when I you know, picking the battles when I first joined, 428 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,757 I would bring up these uh negative tweets we were getting and say, "Hey, 429 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,437 you know, these Anons are saying bad things about us." And you guys would be 430 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,797 like, "Who cares?" Uh like this is in fact part of our success means we're 431 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,237 going to have more and more people who are saying negative things. So 432 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:58,677 >> Well, specifically they were they were they were they were saying mean things 433 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,557 based on the things that we were funding. And then they were like, you 434 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,917 know, it's a it's whole, the whole model is flawed. 435 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,037 >> So, you're putting slop. >> You're putting slop. 436 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:09,157 >> And it's like, bro, like it's great that we're funding things. 437 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:13,557 Like what even if you think that, what is better in this world than the 438 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,237 transfer of wealth from people who have a lot of money to people who have ideas 439 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,477 and want to build something. Like even if we're wrong about everything, like 440 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,397 that's still a good for humanity. So, like shut up to you, hater. 441 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,677 >> Yes. >> Idiots. >> Yes. >> Hater hater. 442 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,997 So, yeah, and then and then you know, that that's a great thing to 443 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,517 my response was no, like that's a great thing to 444 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,637 great thing to get criticized for is we're funding startups and supporting 445 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,357 those startups. Like that's fantastic. 446 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,317 >> There's a kind of point within that that 447 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,717 is also kind of a an important change in new media, which is you really want 448 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,117 people to hate you and you want people to love you, but you don't want to be 449 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,197 neutral. You don't want to be lukewarm. 450 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,517 Um, because then you're uninteresting. 451 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,277 So, you're only you can't be interesting and not have 452 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,557 people both hate you and love you. Just cuz there's too much 453 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:03,077 no matter what you do, there's too much jealousy and just hatred in the world to 454 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,157 not have it be that, cuz as soon as you get big 455 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,277 that's what happens. There there's nobody I used to when people used to get 456 00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,557 upset about like things that were written about us, I said like nobody's 457 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,317 nobody writes a puff piece on like Rupert Murdoch or Elon Musk or like it's 458 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,597 never going to happen again. Like it's over. When you get to a certain size, 459 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:25,117 people hate you. Um, and that's good, cuz that means you did it. You did 460 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,717 something important. You made a mark on the world. People care about what you're 461 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,077 doing. And you have to take it that way. 462 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,717 If you take it like oh, I got to stop doing that so people 463 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,597 like me, you'll you'll ruin your marketing. 464 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,077 Yeah. >> The Mark Mark you since I've said the 465 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,277 term you know, they have all the right enemies. So, it's picking, you know, the 466 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,557 right people to hate you that galvanizes the people who love you. 467 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,357 The what about building the right marketing and media team in 468 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,437 the age of new media? What what have you guys learned or what advice do you have 469 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,637 for for CEOs in terms of making sure you get the right 470 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,077 the right personality. What what's the principle you think about the building 471 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,557 that team? >> Well, the first principle 472 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,957 is if you're trained in old media, it's 473 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,877 very very very hard to 474 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,677 do new media. Um so, you have to be a very exceptional person to make that 475 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,397 transition because it's like 476 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,197 if you spent 10 years doing old media, there are laws of physics, there are 477 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,237 rules of the game, there's things that you do every single time in terms of, 478 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,677 you know, like 479 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,357 you know, from vetting reporters to uh 480 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,317 rude Q&As to this and that like 481 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,677 everything about it is opposite world. 482 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,637 And so, there are very few people who can go, "Okay, I'm getting out of 483 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,437 opposite world and I'm going into a new media world." 484 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,437 So, you just have to be careful about 485 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,077 for the new media side of what you're 486 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,357 doing to hire too much experience in not 487 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,157 new media. Uh it looks like marketing, 488 00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,677 but it's not the same. Uh it's a completely new skill set, so 489 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,157 I I I would say like that's that's probably the thing that I'd worry about 490 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,757 the most. Um and then, you know, like with Eric, what 491 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:13,157 we looked for when we brought you on, for example, is 492 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,517 the best thing on new media is have you done it? Have you kind of built some 493 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,557 brand on something and some audience. Do 494 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,317 you know how to build an audience? 495 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,877 Um because that's the core core thing. 496 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,677 Uh and if you can't do that, then you know, it doesn't matter if you've 497 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,357 got this skill and that skill and the other skill, you've got you you have to 498 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,837 be able to deliver it end-to-end. 499 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:35,237 >> Yep. And in terms of people we've 500 00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,437 brought on, you know, like uh Alex Danco 501 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,877 or uh Henry or or Brent, you know, they um they're product managers or founders 502 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,117 or investors, but they were obsessed with the discourse, the you know, they 503 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,717 were listening to the podcast, they were writing themselves. You could tell in 504 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,397 the proof of work even though they weren't doing the thing. 505 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,957 >> Yeah, so story like storytelling >> on your new media team, that that's such 506 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,877 a good point. So, the reason why Alex is so good is like he's a world-class 507 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,077 storyteller. Like so, forget like just take marketing out of it for a second. 508 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,637 Like can you put together a story that somebody wants to read or listen to or 509 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,117 whatever? And that's that's a real skill. And like 510 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,597 the elite level of that is way higher than the average level of 511 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,837 that. And the people who can't do it, by 512 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,877 the way, can never do it like that. And 513 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,637 many people from kind of old marketing 514 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,557 world don't have that skill because 515 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,317 you know, you always would rely on uh whatever the principal, the CEO, the 516 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:34,157 somebody for that story. Um but if you can build a team that's 517 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,917 got multiple storytellers that are good, that's a huge power boost. 518 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,917 >> By the way, there's a really big disconnect that goes back to the 519 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,437 authenticity point. There's a really big disconnect in how people in the kind of 520 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,037 media sphere think about this cuz every reporter listening to what we're saying 521 00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:49,317 would be like, "Oh, there's only two things. There's journalism and there's 522 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,037 propaganda." Um and and the and the mainstream press, traditional press does 523 00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:56,197 journalism. Um and the and if you're doing any kind of like direct anything, 524 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,757 it's it's propaganda. And you you know, it's it's go to go it's just marketing. 525 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,317 It's just trying to, you know, kind of sell something. 526 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,197 >> [snorts] >> Um and like I would say that's a 527 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,917 division distinction that we 100% don't agree with. Um and you know, there's 528 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,837 there's critique aspect of it, which is I don't think the press does much 529 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:11,197 >> [snorts] >> um you know, what what even they would 530 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,557 describe as objective journalism anymore. But the the but the positive 531 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,117 side of it is I think it goes right back to one of the reasons you want to be 532 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:18,597 authentic is because you want to actually have people understand who you 533 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,637 are. Um you want to have people actually understand what you do. And you want 534 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,757 people to actually understand the the the context within which you're you're 535 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,237 doing what you're doing. So, you you you want to actually explain yourself and 536 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,477 you want to explain the world. Um and like when you talk about storytelling, 537 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,637 like it's it's it's very much not like storytelling like a made-up story. It's 538 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,517 storytelling of like here's what's actually happening. Um in an interesting 539 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:43,797 way >> with tension, with a beginning and an end, you know, that somebody is 540 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,197 interested in following the whole way. 541 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,477 >> Yeah, that's right. And so, as a consequence, and we we really look for 542 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,957 this is like when you know, look when Ben when Ben and I get like stuff from 543 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,277 the street like when we're just like we routinely get told like a wow, I you 544 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,677 know, I I I I watched the podcast. I saw this interview. I read that post this or 545 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:00,437 that from the firm. And 100% time they're like, "Wow, like that was great. 546 00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,117 I really understand what that topic is about." Right? And and that that and 547 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,077 that and and that's that's a very honest and legitimate and you know, 548 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:12,677 positive and worthwhile reaction to very honest positive legitimate you know, 549 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,557 action action on our part. And I just think again I I maybe put the other the 550 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:18,797 other way to put this is that this isn't just something people should do. This is 551 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,717 like I think a responsibility that for people in our world and the people in 552 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,157 tech now to do which is like the changes that are happening. I mean of all times 553 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,117 the changes that are happening in tech right now are are profound. 554 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,197 And they're really hard to understand from the outside and they're really 555 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,997 complicated. And there's huge amounts of noise in the environment. And so 556 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,317 actually explaining honestly, right? What what's actually 557 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,157 going on. And I'll I'll just break break on our team. We we put a space SpaceX 558 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,037 post up today. Which although it has my name on it, I had nothing to do with 559 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,837 writing it. I I cannot take any credit for it. 560 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,557 And it it I I I mean the feedback I'm already getting is it's the best thing 561 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,437 anybody's ever written on SpaceX. And I and I think that's true. And it and it 562 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,237 and it literally is it lays out like the actual truth. And I'm really proud of 563 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,677 that. >> It's awesome. I want to close with some 564 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,957 uh going deeper on some advice for for founders on the on on going direct. Uh 565 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,597 Gabi, I'll start with you. What are some mistakes that you see CEOs making and 566 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:12,877 things to avoid? >> I I would say there's there's two 567 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,437 mistakes that I commonly saw working 568 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:20,197 with and they're sort of related. The first one is 569 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,397 it can be very easy to do this too. It's a trap to fall into because the timeline 570 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,797 feels so addicting, but a lot of founders 571 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,157 really over index on distribution and tactics before actually getting the 572 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,317 message right. Distribution is really just a multiplier 573 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,237 on the message. And so if the message is wrong, now you've amplified something 574 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,397 that is either irrelevant for your business or not the thing that your 575 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,837 audience needs to hear or like as we've talked about, maybe worst of all, it's 576 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,797 uninteresting. And now you've told everybody that you care about that 577 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,557 you're not very interesting. So in practice, a lot of founders would 578 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,437 come to us and say, you know, how do we go viral or how do 579 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,357 we get on Joe Rogan? And if you actually think about it, you could get on Joe 580 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:01,917 Rogan and then not say the right thing. 581 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,157 And this is maybe the worst thing ever. 582 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,517 And this is important because it applies not just to old media, but to new media, 583 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:13,117 right? Like you could go on Bloomberg or Fox and get the message wrong and you 584 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,037 could also do the same thing with new media or going direct. And so uh that 585 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,717 the first mistake is not actually spending the time to get the message 586 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,597 right. And that's the highest leverage, most important thing to get right. 587 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,037 And then from there, I guess the next mistake is actually 588 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,357 just figuring out how to do that. 589 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,037 Um and the way that I saw that is you can 590 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:37,597 get the message wrong if you focus too much on the inputs as opposed to the 591 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,837 outputs or the outcomes that you want to drive towards. And this is sort of 592 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,717 paradoxical because the companies that are very successful 593 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,117 struggle with this the most because there are a lot of interesting things 594 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,037 that you could say about your company, right? There's like so many milestones, 595 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,157 the mission is really compelling, there's like a lot of different things 596 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,317 that you would want to say, but depending on what you're trying to 597 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,957 achieve, the thing that you want to say should probably be different, right? 598 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,437 Just because everything is true doesn't mean it's all relevant or strategic for 599 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:09,037 your business. And so instead of starting with the inputs of here's this huge 600 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:10,437 massive everything that we could say. 601 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:13,317 Let's just say it all right now and hope people remember 602 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,397 potentially the thing that we think is most interesting, but we haven't 603 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,157 identified that thing. Start with the 604 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,757 outcome, right? Do we want to sell to a 605 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,797 certain type of enterprise customer? Do we want to hire a certain type of 606 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:28,877 engineer who believes a certain thing about us and our role in the market? So 607 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,197 now you can kind of work backwards from there. Like we know who these people 608 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,557 are, we know what they believe, we know what what they probably believe or need 609 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,197 to believe about us, and we know what 610 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:42,117 feels in the discourse urgent and timely and personal to them. And then we can 611 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,437 work backwards and get the message right. And so then going back to point 612 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,037 one, you pair that with really powerful distribution, and then you have a really 613 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,557 winning strategy. >> And by the way, so a really important 614 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,837 point in what Gabby said is that really determines how you have to 615 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,397 put the team together because if you put together a team 616 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,917 that you can't have a conversation with where 617 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,717 you're listening on your message and what you're saying, then 618 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,037 that you've kind of done yourself a 619 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,957 disservice. You need the team to help 620 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,317 make the story great before they go cuz 621 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,437 it's really easy to go, "Okay, market this, you know, empty box." Um 622 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,357 there are a few marketers who could probably do that, but like it's it's 623 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,117 hard. Uh so you you really want 624 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,637 the team to be invested in the message, and then all the variations you need to 625 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:37,597 distribute that message are going to be really good and on point. Um but if the 626 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,677 team is kind of doesn't have an opinion on message, that's very difficult. 627 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,717 >> Mark, one of the things we we said in that meeting with the growth portfolio 628 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,757 company the other week was we you admire about people like, you 629 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:52,917 know, Alex Karp or Palmer or Elon or others is the ability to also not just 630 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,557 focus on what they're doing, but also go outside in and talk about what's 631 00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,917 happening in the world and how do they situate their worldview, their their 632 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,957 company, their product, etc. Within that, would you talk a little bit about 633 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:03,917 that principle and how do people get good at it? 634 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:09,317 >> Yeah, so the most uh kind of uh common VC story, so marketing story is, "Oh, I 635 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,597 met this great founder, and we went on a walk, and then I called him eight times, 636 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,237 and like I thought he was great, and I eventually convinced him to take money." 637 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,917 The most common, you know, startup story is, "Oh, we're brand new company. We're 638 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,317 all fired up. We're ready to go. It's going to be great. We have a new 639 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,077 product, you know, we hope you try it." 640 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,517 And I mean, those stories just make you want to stab yourself in the neck, 641 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,237 right? I mean, like as in the like it's just like, "Oh my god." Like that is 642 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,917 just the lamest story in the world. Um and and I 643 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,277 >> By the way, details, well, one of the keys on this is like good storytellers 644 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,717 have great details. Details matter a 645 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,357 lot. And so, the one thing about Mark's thing that makes it like so horrible is 646 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,837 like no details, just like blah, blah, blah, I'm so great. Uh, you know, I 647 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,157 talked to the founder, he really liked me. You'll probably really like me, too. 648 00:34:52,240 --> 00:34:55,317 Like, what who who cares? >> And and it's it's almost right, it's 649 00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:57,477 almost the thing where they they they come across as like it's like fake 650 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,277 humble, right? Cuz it's just like, oh, I'm >> Or you they they say 651 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,517 >> I uh I'm humbly I'm humbled by >> [laughter] 652 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,077 >> That's the most fake humble thing in the world. I'm humbled by 653 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,117 >> You're not even remotely humble. 654 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,837 >> Um, and so, um, yeah, and so, that it's just it's just it's just the worst. And 655 00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,477 you know, there's there's a whole bunch of critiques. It's it's sort of yeah, 656 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,197 it's fake bragging. It's it's boring. 657 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,877 Um, it's you know, it's egocentric. It to to no purpose. 658 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,797 Um, and you know, it's a passive-aggressive. Um, and then it's 659 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:27,997 just it's indistinguishable. Like, there's just a thousand I mean, it's 660 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,677 just it's every it's every single startup. It's every single 661 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,757 >> Everybody can gaze at their navel, right? 662 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,677 >> Everybody can do that. Like, there's nobody who can't do that. So, that's 663 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:37,917 that's not a differentiated story. 664 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,597 >> Yeah, and so, and and so, that's like the default kind of narrative that 665 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,717 people fall into. And then and then it also like it feels I think it actually 666 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,317 feels like doing anything bigger than that is like arrogant cuz it's just 667 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,717 like, who are we to like go tell some bigger thing? And I don't even know what 668 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,837 the bigger thing would be. And like, aren't the people who tell the bigger 669 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,877 thing full of themselves and trying to make themselves look even bigger? And 670 00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,277 so, there's just this like really reluctance to kind of expand the you 671 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,917 know, kind of expand the expand the expand the telescope out. Um 672 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,357 And so, but what I would tell people is um like the exact opposite of the of of all 673 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,117 of that is true, which is like the story of you and your startup is not 674 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,357 inherently a an interesting story, but there is almost certainly an interesting 675 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,597 story that involves your startup. And that story is and it's sort of the cheat 676 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,197 code of it. The story is something else in the world that's happening that is 677 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,557 incredibly interesting. Um, that your company relates to. 678 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:21,757 >> And then yeah, by the way, the grand 679 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,797 wizard of this is Alex Karp. If you 680 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:29,037 watch his interviews, he never talks about Palantir. The only thing he ever 681 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,077 says about Palantir, Mark pointed this out to me is ontology and orchestration, 682 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,847 two words that nobody knows what they mean. 683 00:36:34,930 --> 00:36:38,677 >> [laughter] >> And and like nobody knows what Palantir 684 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,117 does as a result, but it doesn't matter because it's like 685 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,557 you know, like the future of the US military, Palantir. 686 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,757 Like super intelligence, Palantir. Like 687 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,317 whatever the story is that's like really 688 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,397 good, like Alex will go tell that story. 689 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,220 Neurodivergence. >> [laughter] 690 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,997 >> He's he's just like 691 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,677 whatever is interesting, he'll just start talking about and then because 692 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,597 he's this founder of Palantir, the CEO 693 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,557 of Palantir, like that just works and 694 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:16,437 I I say it like kind of facetious, but like 695 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,077 it's really a good strategy. Now, he 696 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,397 takes it to the very extreme. Um but 697 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,477 like that that's the right idea to find 698 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:28,877 the most interesting story that you can that you can plug your company into and 699 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,757 then tell that story. >> Yeah, because because what happens is 700 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,437 then when something happens, right? When something happens in the world, 701 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,557 something happens involving US military, AI in the military, this or that, 702 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,717 geopolitics or China, like he's like the first phone call, right? Cuz he's like 703 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,397 he's the guy who's like been out there talking about that. 704 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,197 >> way, Ryan Peterson is in the audience who's done a phenomenal job of that. 705 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,077 >> good at that. Exactly, yes. Yes. Yes. 706 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:49,797 Right, the difference between talking about freight versus talking about the 707 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,037 global supply chain is completely collapsing during COVID and we're all 708 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:53,447 going to starve to death. Right? 709 00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:56,637 [laughter] And then and then and then therefore 710 00:37:56,720 --> 00:37:59,357 he's the guy who literally goes on 60 minutes to explain to the world that in 711 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,397 fact yes, we are we all are about to starve to death. 712 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,597 Um from the helicopter, right? Is that Is that Yes, from the from the 713 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,477 helicopter, yes. Look at all those ships that are never landing. Uh your your 714 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:14,407 children are about to starve. Um by Flexport. Um 715 00:38:14,490 --> 00:38:16,517 >> [laughter] >> So it works incredibly well and then the other 716 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,837 >> And you don't even have to say by Flexport. It just happens. 717 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,957 >> It's implicit. It's implicit. And then um and then the the other thing 718 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,477 especially especially for enterprise anything involving enterprise sales 719 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:27,477 which is certainly Flexport but also Palantir is just like a big part of it 720 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,397 is are you important enough to like meet with the CEO of your customer? Like are 721 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,277 are you important enough to get in the room with the decision maker? Are you 722 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,757 are you important enough to meet with the Secretary of War? Are you important 723 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:36,877 enough to like be in the White House? 724 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,917 Are you important enough to be with Fortune 500 CEOs? And you know, I just I 725 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,357 have a you know, I have a little startup that's doing interesting things that's 726 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,597 not do that but I am attached to and you have seen me talk about like the big 727 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,757 important things that are happening in the world and how they relate and that 728 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,077 you have you know, potentially an answer to it. Like that's absolute catnip. Like 729 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,797 every every every everybody wants that. 730 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,757 And so yeah, so the way I describe this is just you know, the the the the the 731 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,317 trick kind of is don't don't everybody just naturally thinks inside out me and 732 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,957 my company and my product out into the world. Don't think that way. Think in 733 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:06,877 terms of like what are the most interesting things happening in the 734 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,157 world and then what and then how and then and then how do those things relate to us? 735 00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:14,277 >> And and by the way, this is where um 736 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,677 CEOs go off the rails cuz they're so focused on what they're doing. 737 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,277 Um that all they want to do is tell their story and they're not even paying 738 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,557 attention to what's going on in the world which is understandable cuz you're 739 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:31,477 trying to build something but to do the marketing exercise investing 740 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:35,517 in understanding what's happening out there is just 741 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,797 critically important. You can't do it without that. 742 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,037 >> This by the way happens also in investor 743 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,437 relations. So every company you know, this every public company by law does 744 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,317 these you know, S1 K1 [snorts] Q whatever Q they they do all these things 745 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,837 and they like fully have you you know, spend all this time and all this effort 746 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,477 and these these documents is filing fully explain everything the company 747 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,197 does and they have every possible you know, hedge and me a culpa and I'll just 748 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,477 like these incredible descriptions of people but and then and then there are 749 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:01,197 the the annual letters and the >> [snorts] >> and all this stuff. What percentage of 750 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,117 the investors in you know, Palantir have 751 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:04,077 read the 752 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,997 S1 K1, right? Like you know, 0.0001% 753 00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,717 What percentage have seen Alex you know, on YouTube doing his thing? 754 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:12,997 >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know, 100%. 755 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:14,477 >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the amount of time 756 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,717 that goes into that document. Right. 757 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,357 And so you just take that time and just 758 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,077 understand enough about the world to put together a good story. 759 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,397 >> On on that note, we'll end with the this idea that um the skill set is is not 760 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:31,237 only something you're you're born with you're not it can be developed and 761 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,197 learned and cultivated. I mean Mark you were saying the other day that when you 762 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,117 look back at Alex Karp's old interviews they're they're very different. And so 763 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,357 when you look at you know Alex or Palmer or Elon or Ryan or Amjad who who came 764 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,957 here earlier um you look back at their old tweets or 765 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,517 their old interviews and they're they're nowhere close to you know where they were. 766 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,237 >> Oh yeah, it's a skill set for sure. Um and look there there are people who are 767 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:55,757 gifted and then people are less good. If you look at Donald Trump's interviews in 768 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,077 the 80s they're very old media interviews. He's actually 769 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,877 restrained. >> [laughter] 770 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:08,677 >> And then you know like he did figure out new media and he's always like super 771 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,397 entertaining and interesting which is kind of the the magic of his uh 772 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,917 of his popularity. Um so even like at that level you can 773 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,637 develop it. >> Yeah. On that note, it's a great place to 774 00:41:21,720 --> 00:41:24,077 wrap. Let's do a round of applause for Gabby, Ben, and Mark. 775 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,120 >> Thank you. >> [applause]