WEBVTT 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:02.587 - I would definitely build nuclear weapons. 00:00:02.670 --> 00:00:03.707 I would build fission weapons. 00:00:03.790 --> 00:00:05.240 I would build fusion weapons. 00:00:06.920 --> 00:00:10.387 - Do you think your bluntness comes across as rude or off-putting? 00:00:10.470 --> 00:00:12.820 - I think to certain people it definitely does. 00:00:17.560 --> 00:00:21.317 The next war-fighting domain, before it's the moon, is the subterranean domain." 00:00:21.400 --> 00:00:22.647 - Is it subterranean, then the moon? 00:00:22.730 --> 00:00:24.530 - Yeah, subterranean, then the moon. 00:00:27.820 --> 00:00:30.407 - Palmer Luckey, good to see you again, and welcome to the "Axios Show." 00:00:30.490 --> 00:00:31.947 - Thank you for having us on. - Thank you for having us on. 00:00:32.030 --> 00:00:35.367 - You are the founder and figurehead of Anduril Industries, 00:00:35.450 --> 00:00:39.917 among the splashiest, fastest growing, most pro-autonomy 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.377 and polarizing defense contractors on the planet, I would hazard? 00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:46.837 - Wow, seven descriptors. - Yes, I'm big on adjectives. 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:49.927 You have your haters and you have your hot takes, 00:00:50.010 --> 00:00:52.547 so I would like to lean into both if you're game. 00:00:52.630 --> 00:00:56.017 - I am always game to lean into the things that make me polarizing. 00:00:56.100 --> 00:00:57.600 - Fantastic. 00:01:01.100 --> 00:01:04.977 Describe for me Anduril in one sentence, one quick sentence. 00:01:05.060 --> 00:01:08.397 Anduril is a defense product company that spends its own money 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.617 designing, developing, and shipping tools that will save taxpayers 00:01:11.700 --> 00:01:13.697 hundreds of billions of dollars a year 00:01:13.780 --> 00:01:17.157 as we make tens of billions of dollars a year, someday. 00:01:17.240 --> 00:01:19.287 - Someday. - We're not there yet. 00:01:19.370 --> 00:01:21.420 - Describe to me the culture in one word. 00:01:22.460 --> 00:01:23.293 - Effective. 00:01:24.210 --> 00:01:25.043 - Why? 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.047 - Almost everything that we have here is oriented around what type of competence 00:01:30.130 --> 00:01:33.217 will lead to actually delivering things that actually work with the customer 00:01:33.300 --> 00:01:34.970 on a timeline that is relevant. 00:01:35.430 --> 00:01:37.227 we need to build tools that are effective. 00:01:37.310 --> 00:01:41.057 And sometimes something needs to come now rather than later to be effective. 00:01:41.140 --> 00:01:43.307 Sometimes it needs to be higher capability to be effective or not. 00:01:43.390 --> 00:01:46.187 Sometimes, if it's not cheap enough to buy in scale that matters, 00:01:46.270 --> 00:01:49.897 then it's not effective. We're about 20% veterans here. 00:01:49.980 --> 00:01:51.947 People are very close to the customers. 00:01:52.030 --> 00:01:55.277 They're very close to the deployments, and they understand, 00:01:55.360 --> 00:01:57.327 I think, a lot better than a lot of other companies, 00:01:57.410 --> 00:01:59.747 how the military is truly using our tools. 00:01:59.830 --> 00:02:01.117 We have people who are forward deployed. 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:03.247 We have people who are overseas in the Middle East right now. 00:02:03.330 --> 00:02:05.957 We've had people who are in Ukraine since the second week of the war. 00:02:06.040 --> 00:02:08.667 And so I think we have a very good understanding 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:12.047 of what it takes to be effective with our customers. 00:02:12.130 --> 00:02:14.047 And if we don't, we develop it. 00:02:14.130 --> 00:02:16.887 If we go and we learn that we are screwing it up, 00:02:16.970 --> 00:02:18.427 we put our own resources into fixing it. 00:02:18.510 --> 00:02:21.637 - To zoom out on effective, where in the world have you been effective? 00:02:21.720 --> 00:02:25.607 Is that Ukraine with drones? Is that Australia with Ghost Shark? 00:02:25.690 --> 00:02:29.730 Is that the Middle East? - So we've been effective in, 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:32.817 we've been effective in a lot of places. 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:35.117 And, of course, we've had bouts where it was ineffective. 00:02:35.200 --> 00:02:39.617 You know, like I'd say we've been very effective in the Middle East right now. 00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:43.707 We've also had challenges in the past, and then we've surged resources 00:02:43.790 --> 00:02:49.207 to get that fixed, which is one of the reasons that things are working now. 00:02:49.290 --> 00:02:50.797 But I think we've been effective in Ukraine. 00:02:50.880 --> 00:02:53.087 Australia, we're really just beginning to deliver there, right? 00:02:53.170 --> 00:02:55.137 We've built a factory there. We've hired a large team there. 00:02:55.220 --> 00:02:58.967 We've developed this Ghost Shark program with them building robotic submarines 00:02:59.050 --> 00:03:00.767 at a very large scale, very quickly. 00:03:00.850 --> 00:03:03.637 We delivered the first submarine a year ahead of schedule. 00:03:03.720 --> 00:03:05.687 I don't know if I would say that's like effective yet, 00:03:05.770 --> 00:03:08.107 because Australia's not fighting anybody right now. 00:03:08.190 --> 00:03:09.647 And I think they hope to keep it that way. 00:03:09.730 --> 00:03:11.107 So it's hard to prove, 00:03:11.190 --> 00:03:16.197 but I think Ukraine, Taiwan, certainly the United States, 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:19.570 we've proven that we are effective a number of times. 00:03:19.740 --> 00:03:21.907 Your competition in the defense contracting world 00:03:21.990 --> 00:03:24.707 includes the entrenched primes, the Lockheeds, - Sure. 00:03:24.790 --> 00:03:27.327 - The Northrops, the Boeings. If I'm a Pentagon buyer, 00:03:27.410 --> 00:03:30.080 why do I buy Anduril versus those guys? 00:03:31.590 --> 00:03:32.757 - So it depends on what you're doing. 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:38.387 But, in general, the sense that a lot of people have in the Pentagon 00:03:38.470 --> 00:03:41.637 is that Anduril is a company that is going to move very, very quickly. 00:03:41.720 --> 00:03:44.807 We're gonna bring a lot of our own resources to bear on the project, 00:03:44.890 --> 00:03:48.057 and that even when programs have run into political problems, 00:03:48.140 --> 00:03:50.517 because we're willing to spend our own money as a product company 00:03:50.600 --> 00:03:53.437 continuing to keep things going, there's a number of programs 00:03:53.520 --> 00:03:56.737 that have survived political breaks that would've killed 00:03:56.820 --> 00:03:58.157 a lot of traditional cost-plus programs. 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:01.657 And so I think a lot of the people in the program offices in the Pentagon 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:04.197 that are making decisions, whether they're selecting Anduril 00:04:04.280 --> 00:04:06.367 or, let's say, keeping Anduril in the mix. 00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:08.497 You know, it's not always, "We're gonna award to Anduril," 00:04:08.580 --> 00:04:11.337 it's we're gonna select two or three companies to work on this. 00:04:11.420 --> 00:04:14.587 I think the reason we stay in that basket is they know that we'll move quickly. 00:04:14.670 --> 00:04:15.967 They know we'll put our own money in. 00:04:16.050 --> 00:04:18.177 They know that even when we run into political challenges, 00:04:18.260 --> 00:04:19.967 we're not gonna do a stop-work order. 00:04:20.050 --> 00:04:21.427 We're not gonna just shut down our lines. 00:04:21.510 --> 00:04:23.977 We're gonna keep moving and hope that we come out the other side. 00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:27.767 - You, Alex Karp at Palantir, Elon Musk, 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:30.437 you all have a distinct style, a distinct tact. 00:04:30.520 --> 00:04:34.317 And you have said, you've described it in the past as a bit of a caricature. 00:04:34.400 --> 00:04:38.567 Do you need to be a bit of a caricature to run a successful defense company 00:04:38.650 --> 00:04:41.447 these days? - No. No. Some of the most successful defense companies I know 00:04:41.530 --> 00:04:43.577 are run by very competent operators. 00:04:43.660 --> 00:04:45.827 They're the most straight-laced guys you've ever seen. 00:04:45.910 --> 00:04:48.827 If you set us side by side, we'd look like a Japanese comedy duo, 00:04:48.910 --> 00:04:51.960 the straight man and the funny man playing off of each other. 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:56.007 I don't think you need to be a larger-than-life character. 00:04:56.090 --> 00:04:58.217 I think that what you see is the larger-than-life characters 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:02.797 are the ones that get the retweets or the Re-Truths. (chuckles) 00:05:02.880 --> 00:05:06.517 And the straight players typically don't. 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.387 But that's also not what makes a company successful. 00:05:08.470 --> 00:05:09.897 the marketing that you get, that you see like on Twitter, 00:05:09.980 --> 00:05:11.727 it's primarily a recruiting engine. 00:05:11.810 --> 00:05:17.147 Like I'm not marketing to necessarily the guy who's buying my system. 00:05:17.230 --> 00:05:22.567 Like he's not the one who's, you know, checking out the hot takes. 00:05:22.650 --> 00:05:24.157 But for recruiting, it's helpful. 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:27.207 Like Anduril being out there and having a position, for example, 00:05:27.290 --> 00:05:31.287 on who should have the final call on how to use autonomous weapons 00:05:31.370 --> 00:05:36.377 or being out there and having an opinion on what good manufacturing looks like, 00:05:36.460 --> 00:05:40.840 we are attracting the right people, and, I think, repelling the wrong people. 00:05:41.760 --> 00:05:44.007 Our company probably wouldn't have gotten a lot of our best talent 00:05:44.090 --> 00:05:45.597 if we weren't out there in that way. 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:48.130 - What's the most badass thing Anduril has built? 00:05:48.810 --> 00:05:50.557 - I'm supposed to love all my children equally. 00:05:50.640 --> 00:05:51.897 - Everyone has a favorite child. 00:05:51.980 --> 00:05:54.187 - Everyone, everyone. It's true. 00:05:54.270 --> 00:05:55.520 The science bears it out. 00:05:57.020 --> 00:06:02.237 I think the coolest thing, you know, there's a bit of recency bias here, 00:06:02.320 --> 00:06:07.577 but I think that the coolest thing that we've built in my mind right now is Fury. 00:06:07.660 --> 00:06:11.040 It's an autonomous fighter jet for the United States Air Force. 00:06:13.210 --> 00:06:15.297 You know, we were competing with a lot of the big guys. 00:06:15.380 --> 00:06:18.757 And to go toe to toe with them and then get selected by the Air Force 00:06:18.840 --> 00:06:23.387 to deliver these prototypes to them was just the coolest thing ever. 00:06:23.470 --> 00:06:24.967 Only about half of our products are public, 00:06:25.050 --> 00:06:26.927 which is another thing that makes this difficult. 00:06:27.010 --> 00:06:30.097 But Fury was one where we went toe-to-toe with the big guys 00:06:30.180 --> 00:06:34.267 for their bread and butter, not like a side thing that they're not interested in, 00:06:34.350 --> 00:06:38.437 and we won. And that, to me, was very gratifying, 00:06:38.520 --> 00:06:41.357 for me, for the team working on the product, 00:06:41.440 --> 00:06:43.407 for all the other teams building mission systems 00:06:43.490 --> 00:06:46.447 and support stuff that went on the product, the people building the buildings 00:06:46.530 --> 00:06:48.580 that are being used to build the product. 00:06:49.410 --> 00:06:50.537 I think that that is one 00:06:50.620 --> 00:06:52.667 that everyone's still riding a bit of an emotional high on. 00:06:52.750 --> 00:06:55.537 - What won't you build? What's your red line? 00:06:55.620 --> 00:06:56.960 - What wouldn't I build? 00:06:58.420 --> 00:07:00.467 That's an interesting one. - Nuclear weapons. 00:07:00.550 --> 00:07:02.167 - I would definitely build nuclear weapons. 00:07:02.250 --> 00:07:03.297 I would build fission weapons. 00:07:03.380 --> 00:07:05.677 I would build fusion weapons. I think that nuclear weapons 00:07:05.760 --> 00:07:09.887 have been one of the most stabilizing forces in history ever. 00:07:09.970 --> 00:07:13.267 It's never been like that in history where total war is off the table. 00:07:13.350 --> 00:07:15.857 So fission weapons, fusion weapons, absolutely I would build them. 00:07:15.940 --> 00:07:17.560 I would probably not build, 00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:20.437 I would not build biological weapons. 00:07:20.520 --> 00:07:22.527 - Chemical weapons? - Chemical weapons I would build, 00:07:22.610 --> 00:07:24.157 but in a very specific vertical. 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:26.407 And this is a very controversial thing, and please don't clip, 00:07:26.490 --> 00:07:29.197 "Yes, I would build chemical weapons," and put it on the Axios- 00:07:29.280 --> 00:07:30.907 - So I wanna be very, very specific about this. 00:07:30.990 --> 00:07:35.077 And so if you guys post it, you know, please include this as well. 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:40.547 I'll give you an example. Pepper spray is illegal for most non-military police units 00:07:40.630 --> 00:07:43.877 to use in the military. So like certain MPs can use pepper spray. 00:07:43.960 --> 00:07:45.967 We are not able to use pepper spray, tear gas 00:07:46.050 --> 00:07:48.297 as part of our conventional offensive military tactics. 00:07:48.380 --> 00:07:49.717 I think that's a huge mistake. 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:51.847 It falls under a lot of these chemical weapon prohibitions. 00:07:51.930 --> 00:07:55.477 And I understand the worries about fear of escalation or a slippery slope. 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:56.937 I think we understand chemical weapons enough 00:07:57.020 --> 00:08:01.107 to know there's no real slippery slope from literally hot pepper juice 00:08:01.190 --> 00:08:05.070 to, you know, nerve, nerve agents that are going to kill you. 00:08:48.070 --> 00:08:52.990 - Do you think the Pentagon overstepped labeling the company a supply-chain risk? 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:59.000 - I am of the mind that no. 00:09:00.290 --> 00:09:03.837 If anything, I think I may have been even more forceful in this rejection. 00:09:03.920 --> 00:09:08.217 And let me tell you why. The only reason you have not seen, I think, 00:09:08.300 --> 00:09:11.007 a larger defection from other companies 00:09:11.090 --> 00:09:15.137 that are worried about, you know, similar problems 00:09:15.220 --> 00:09:17.767 is because of the forceful reaction of the Department. 00:09:17.850 --> 00:09:20.727 The Department is saying, "We are not gonna let you slippery slope this. 00:09:20.810 --> 00:09:24.397 We're not gonna let one company get their special provisions, 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.817 and then we're gonna have a different debate with a different company, 00:09:26.900 --> 00:09:27.817 a different debate with a different entity." 00:09:27.900 --> 00:09:29.987 Because these companies do have different values, right? 00:09:30.070 --> 00:09:32.237 They're not gonna all simultaneously agree, 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:35.747 you know, "Anthropic's version of their limits is our version." 00:09:35.830 --> 00:09:39.497 What you end up with very quickly is a patchwork of different regulations 00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:41.077 across all these different companies. 00:09:41.160 --> 00:09:44.667 And the Department now has to ask, is this operation, is this planning element, 00:09:44.750 --> 00:09:48.717 is this tool compliant with these five different companies versions 00:09:48.800 --> 00:09:52.587 of what their limit is? And by the way, that version changes over time. 00:09:52.670 --> 00:09:54.177 They now have to weigh these things. 00:09:54.260 --> 00:09:57.677 Let's set aside the, you know, Anthropic was saying 00:09:57.760 --> 00:10:02.267 it's about offensive autonomous weapons with no human in the loop 00:10:02.350 --> 00:10:04.607 or about mass surveillance. There's a lot of questions there. 00:10:04.690 --> 00:10:06.977 Like, okay, what defines offensive? 00:10:07.060 --> 00:10:08.987 What defines no human in the loop? 00:10:09.070 --> 00:10:12.947 What defines weapon? What defines use, right? 00:10:13.030 --> 00:10:16.487 And I know this sounds a little bit like, you know, Bill Clinton, you know, 00:10:16.570 --> 00:10:20.867 depends on what the definition of is is thing, but these things really do matter. 00:10:20.950 --> 00:10:23.667 Imagine if it was something even more simple. 00:10:23.750 --> 00:10:28.797 A tech company said, "Department of War, I'll do anything that you want. 00:10:28.880 --> 00:10:33.007 We will not turn it off unless you target innocent civilians. 00:10:33.090 --> 00:10:38.097 We want it in paper that we can turn it off if you target innocent civilians." 00:10:38.180 --> 00:10:42.347 Well, what is targeting? Like, is it inadvertent versus explicit? 00:10:42.430 --> 00:10:44.767 What is innocence? Is it determined by the courts? 00:10:44.850 --> 00:10:46.307 Is it determined by the Hague? 00:10:46.390 --> 00:10:47.527 Is it determined by people in Brussels? 00:10:47.610 --> 00:10:51.027 Is it determined by Dario? What is a civilian? 00:10:51.110 --> 00:10:54.367 And who decides? What if there's civilian mixed in with other things? 00:10:54.450 --> 00:10:58.077 You run into these problems where, if you agree to this, 00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:01.367 you are giving more power to private companies, 00:11:01.450 --> 00:11:05.327 executives making billions off taxpayers than the president of the United States. 00:11:05.410 --> 00:11:08.837 They could just unilaterally, you know, pull the keys on stuff 00:11:08.920 --> 00:11:11.417 in a way that not even the commander-in-chief can do. 00:11:11.500 --> 00:11:12.547 I don't think that that's correct. 00:11:12.630 --> 00:11:14.677 I think that our military has to be accountable 00:11:14.760 --> 00:11:17.797 to our civilian elected leadership, not to corporations. 00:11:17.880 --> 00:11:21.517 - Do you think this is more a battle of policies or personalities? 00:11:21.600 --> 00:11:24.187 - Hmm. It's all, I mean, it's both, right? 00:11:24.270 --> 00:11:25.597 I mean, that's what politics is. 00:11:25.680 --> 00:11:28.267 I think that there are people who know how to, like, 00:11:28.350 --> 00:11:31.937 I bet there is somebody in the tech world, I don't know if it's me, 00:11:32.020 --> 00:11:33.947 somebody probably could have gotten 00:11:34.030 --> 00:11:36.197 something equivalent to those policies through 00:11:36.280 --> 00:11:39.947 by talking about it in exactly the right way, writing exactly the same thing, 00:11:40.030 --> 00:11:43.157 and making sure to not rub the wrong people the wrong way. 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:46.287 Like there, there's a way where you could talk people through these things. 00:11:46.370 --> 00:11:48.917 Maybe you could say, "Oh, you know, we're gonna do this 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:52.047 in a way that it's not taking authority away from you." 00:11:52.130 --> 00:11:55.427 Maybe it would be something like, instead of in our contract 00:11:55.510 --> 00:11:58.137 it says you can't do these things, it would say, you know, 00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:01.217 "We're handing this language over to Congress 00:12:01.300 --> 00:12:03.557 and should they ratify it, this is how it would go. 00:12:03.640 --> 00:12:06.767 But of course we want your input on what these things would be." 00:12:06.850 --> 00:12:09.187 So look, personalities always enter into it. 00:12:09.270 --> 00:12:09.310 So look, personalities always enter into it. 00:12:09.350 --> 00:12:10.727 I'd be naive to say otherwise. 00:12:10.810 --> 00:12:14.237 - And I think probably the personalities in this case 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:18.657 did not approach this in the most collaborative way that they could, 00:12:18.740 --> 00:12:20.697 but in the end, I give the win to the Department, 00:12:20.780 --> 00:12:22.367 because they're the one that has to make sure 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:26.207 that use of force and responsibility for force lies in the chain of command 00:12:26.290 --> 00:12:29.920 that is accountable to the people that we elect. 00:12:33.630 --> 00:12:35.667 - Another hot topic, Iran. - Sure. 00:12:35.750 --> 00:12:38.467 - Does does that require boots on the ground from the US to solve this? 00:12:38.550 --> 00:12:41.547 - Geez, I hope not. I mean, I don't think the United States 00:12:41.630 --> 00:12:44.217 has the political will to do it, whether it's good or bad. 00:12:44.300 --> 00:12:45.347 I've been saying this for years. 00:12:45.430 --> 00:12:49.057 I think after our adventures in the Middle East of the last couple decades 00:12:49.140 --> 00:12:55.107 have robbed America of its ability to sustain a boots-on-the-ground campaign. 00:12:55.190 --> 00:12:58.987 I think that what Trump's doing, like, you know, whether it's in Venezuela or Iran, 00:12:59.070 --> 00:13:01.987 it's a totally new type of warfare, 00:13:02.070 --> 00:13:04.077 but I think it's born of strategic realities, right? 00:13:04.160 --> 00:13:07.997 Like we do not have it in us to do this, for good reasons or bad. 00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:09.827 I don't think that we're ready to go fight, 00:13:09.910 --> 00:13:13.297 let's say World War II for the right reasons, 00:13:13.380 --> 00:13:16.630 much less reasons that not everyone agrees with. 00:13:16.880 --> 00:13:19.967 I think that we don't have another D-Day in us right now, 00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:22.677 and I think that's actually a bit of a problem. 00:13:22.760 --> 00:13:26.017 I think that it means that even in a very important fight, we might not show up, 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:27.557 but it's one of the reasons I've been saying 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.307 the United States probably needs to transition from being the world police 00:13:30.390 --> 00:13:33.857 to being the world gun store. We need to give the people that work with us, 00:13:33.940 --> 00:13:36.817 who have a stronger stake in these interests than even we do, 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:38.857 the tools that they need to defend themselves 00:13:38.940 --> 00:13:41.237 and hopefully align with US interests. 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:43.577 I don't think it's gonna go to boots on the ground. 00:13:43.660 --> 00:13:47.287 Maybe I'll be eating my words in a week, but I don't think that we have it in us. 00:13:47.370 --> 00:13:50.747 - So Trump ran as a bit of an anti-war president, some in MAGA- 00:13:50.830 --> 00:13:52.957 - And he and he did that even in the first one. 00:13:53.040 --> 00:13:54.837 You know, remember when Hillary Clinton was running 00:13:54.920 --> 00:13:57.417 and saying she would enforce a no-fly zone in Syria. 00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:00.547 And you had Trump saying, they'd say, "Well, well what would you do, you know, 00:14:00.630 --> 00:14:03.797 if you were president?" He said, "Well, I wouldn't start World War III." 00:14:03.880 --> 00:14:06.807 And, I have to admit, that resonated with me. 00:14:06.890 --> 00:14:09.807 I was like, you know what, that's probably the right attitude 00:14:09.890 --> 00:14:12.397 in terms of not starting wars needlessly, 00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:15.017 not expending munitions and arms and industrial capacity 00:14:15.100 --> 00:14:18.147 that we need to fight more important wars than that particular issue. 00:14:18.230 --> 00:14:19.987 - Is the Iran war an important one? 00:14:20.070 --> 00:14:21.947 - Here's the thing, I'm not in the Gang of Eight. 00:14:22.030 --> 00:14:24.450 I haven't seen the briefing that people saw. 00:14:25.870 --> 00:14:31.287 So far you've had people saying, and you know, whether it's Secretary Rubio 00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:33.957 or other people in Congress who were briefed 00:14:34.040 --> 00:14:36.997 that there was an imminent threat to the United States 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:40.167 to, not just servicemen, but also civilians. 00:14:40.250 --> 00:14:42.757 It seems to be, this is not necessarily based on the briefing, 00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:43.587 but things have leaked out 00:14:43.670 --> 00:14:48.057 is we now know that Israel was planning a preemptive strike 00:14:48.140 --> 00:14:49.967 because they believed that if they did not, 00:14:50.050 --> 00:14:53.937 there was going to be a large-scale attack on Israel. 00:14:54.020 --> 00:14:55.557 And so it becomes one of those things 00:14:55.640 --> 00:14:57.980 where I don't have enough information to say. 00:14:59.060 --> 00:15:01.567 I think that probably we'll find out in the long run 00:15:01.650 --> 00:15:06.530 if this is as justified as it seems to the administration. 00:15:10.580 --> 00:15:14.000 - Who is emerging as influential at the Pentagon? 00:15:15.710 --> 00:15:17.247 When they call you, you pick up. 00:15:17.330 --> 00:15:19.757 Is that Pete Hegseth? Is that Steve Feinberg? 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:20.890 Is that someone else? 00:15:21.750 --> 00:15:24.047 If Steve wants to talk to me, I talk with him. 00:15:24.130 --> 00:15:26.677 If Emil wants to talk with me, I talk with him. 00:15:26.760 --> 00:15:28.557 If Hegseth calls me, I talk to him. 00:15:28.640 --> 00:15:31.677 I have actually myself- - Have they all called you? 00:15:31.760 --> 00:15:36.477 - Let me think about that. I mean, maybe this is too much to talk about publicly, 00:15:36.560 --> 00:15:38.187 but I don't think they'll mind. 00:15:38.270 --> 00:15:41.187 I've, of course, met and had meetings with all of them. 00:15:41.270 --> 00:15:45.157 In terms of an actual phone call from them, I've had calls from Pete. 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:50.740 I've had calls from Emil. I have not yet had a call out of the blue from Steve, 00:15:51.990 --> 00:15:54.157 but, look, these guys, I don't know if I would say 00:15:54.240 --> 00:15:56.957 they're, like, emerging as influential so much as they were appointed 00:15:57.040 --> 00:15:58.997 into these extremely influential roles. 00:15:59.080 --> 00:16:01.707 And so, of course, of course they're influential. 00:16:01.790 --> 00:16:04.967 They're the ones who are tasked with making these decisions. 00:16:05.050 --> 00:16:06.427 From what I understand, 00:16:06.510 --> 00:16:09.887 they're running this whole organization a little differently 00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:11.017 than people have run in the past. 00:16:11.100 --> 00:16:13.767 It's not just me getting the call, I guess would be my point. - Yeah. 00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:15.937 - I think that they're calling up lots of other people. 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:18.147 And by the way, the calls are not necessarily, 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:20.057 "Hey, I've got good news for you." 00:16:20.140 --> 00:16:23.647 There's also a lot of, "Hey, you need to fix your shit 00:16:23.730 --> 00:16:26.777 on X, Y, and Z. - Like the RTX tweet we saw from the President. 00:16:26.860 --> 00:16:30.617 I think that that is exactly how this whole department is being run right now. 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:32.697 Like that's the president doing it in public. - By Twitter or by? 00:16:32.780 --> 00:16:34.197 - That's the president doing it in public. 00:16:34.280 --> 00:16:37.037 But I think that you have a lot of this pressure from the department as well. 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:38.830 They're learning that the best way 00:16:40.420 --> 00:16:44.707 to fix these problems is to be very, very honest and open about it 00:16:44.790 --> 00:16:46.507 and not filter it through, you know, 00:16:46.590 --> 00:16:49.927 let's say, a program review that comes out months later 00:16:50.010 --> 00:16:53.217 that concludes with like, "Performance unsatisfactory." 00:16:53.300 --> 00:16:55.977 You want to put pressure on people early enough 00:16:56.060 --> 00:16:58.347 that they can actually course correct and adapt. 00:16:58.430 --> 00:17:00.767 And so I very much appreciate all of this. 00:17:00.850 --> 00:17:04.277 To be honest, even talking with my, I wanna say competitors, 00:17:04.360 --> 00:17:05.947 but remember we also collaborate 00:17:06.030 --> 00:17:07.947 with companies like Raytheon and Northrop and Lockheed. 00:17:08.030 --> 00:17:09.737 In fact, we're teamed up on certain programs. 00:17:09.820 --> 00:17:13.827 So I guess my colleagues. In my conversations with my colleagues there, 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:15.657 they actually appreciate this as well. 00:17:15.740 --> 00:17:21.037 They probably don't like being slammed in the press, you know, or on Truth Social, 00:17:21.120 --> 00:17:24.087 but they do appreciate the early feedback 00:17:24.170 --> 00:17:26.127 from senior leaders on what they're getting wrong 00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:30.007 and what they're getting right, because they have the ability to course correct. 00:17:30.090 --> 00:17:34.057 You mentioned before we started, Gavin Newsom saved Anduril. 00:17:34.140 --> 00:17:38.850 - Oh, yes, that's right. And I said, "I think he did it without even knowing." 00:17:40.430 --> 00:17:42.477 This is not to say that Gavin did this, 00:17:42.560 --> 00:17:43.767 because he wasn't even thinking of Anduril. 00:17:43.850 --> 00:17:47.697 I suspect he was not at all. But the California state legislature passed a bill 00:17:47.780 --> 00:17:49.897 that was regulating AI. So it made it through the house 00:17:49.980 --> 00:17:51.680 and it made it through the Senate, 00:17:52.740 --> 00:17:57.157 not with a super majority. So it was not a bill that could not be vetoed. 00:17:57.240 --> 00:17:59.957 And one of the provisions in the bill said that it was illegal 00:18:00.040 --> 00:18:05.037 for companies to build products with AI that cause harm to humans, 00:18:05.120 --> 00:18:08.667 in fact, that could cause physical harm to humans. 00:18:08.750 --> 00:18:12.837 This would've been a total prohibition on using artificial intelligence on weapons 00:18:12.920 --> 00:18:14.427 for the United States military. 00:18:14.510 --> 00:18:16.387 And I think that this is a terrible thing. 00:18:16.470 --> 00:18:20.937 Gavin vetoed the bill, and I'm very, very glad that he did. 00:18:21.020 --> 00:18:22.597 I think, look- - Have you told him this? 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.277 0 I have not told him this. If I have the chance, I probably will mention it to him. 00:18:27.360 --> 00:18:29.737 Look, me and Gavin, we disagree on a lot of things. 00:18:29.820 --> 00:18:34.117 There's plenty of things that I could criticize Gavin Newsom on. 00:18:34.200 --> 00:18:38.787 But I will say, on the balance, he is not one of the crazy people, right? 00:18:38.870 --> 00:18:41.617 You can disagree with him very easily, but he is not someone 00:18:41.700 --> 00:18:44.957 who wants to tear down capital markets. 00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:51.047 He does not want our military to be the weakest military in the world. 00:18:51.130 --> 00:18:53.967 Like he's generally a sane guy 00:18:54.050 --> 00:18:59.890 and apparently more sane than most of our legislators who voted for that bill. 00:19:03.350 --> 00:19:05.647 - What needs to happen before Anduril goes public? 00:19:05.730 --> 00:19:08.897 Word on the street is that you're raising 4 billion at 60 billion. 00:19:08.980 --> 00:19:11.237 We reported that the other day. 00:19:11.320 --> 00:19:13.907 - I can tell you that that's not quite right. 00:19:13.990 --> 00:19:18.077 But I will tell you also that we are basically continuously raising, 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:21.077 talking to investors. As long as there are things 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:25.037 that we think we could private capital to work on, building better tools, 00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:26.127 building better capacity, we're gonna do it. 00:19:26.210 --> 00:19:30.167 Like our last round, we raised, how much did we raise? 00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:32.127 It was quite a bit of money. I forget. - It was, yeah, billions. 00:19:32.210 --> 00:19:36.337 - It was billions of dollars. We put most of that money into building Arsenal-1, 00:19:36.420 --> 00:19:38.717 which is this 5-million-square-foot production facility 00:19:38.800 --> 00:19:43.097 to build missiles, fighter jets, air defense systems, 00:19:43.180 --> 00:19:45.470 all kinds of things at this huge facility. 00:19:46.560 --> 00:19:48.107 And if we were raising right now, 00:19:48.190 --> 00:19:50.147 we'd be putting into basically exactly the same thing. 00:19:50.230 --> 00:19:53.567 So we need to massively scale up our capability. 00:19:53.650 --> 00:19:56.907 There's a huge number of things that we're making that are extremely relevant. 00:19:56.990 --> 00:20:01.157 And I cannot wait for the government to come, give me an order, give me money, 00:20:01.240 --> 00:20:02.867 then start building the factory, 00:20:02.950 --> 00:20:05.327 then train the people to build it and then start building. 00:20:05.410 --> 00:20:08.667 - On Arsenal-1, y'all said the production lines could go hot 00:20:08.750 --> 00:20:11.840 as soon as this July, a few months from now. 00:20:12.880 --> 00:20:14.837 - Actually, they're going live in a matter of weeks. 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.257 We're ahead of schedule. So I just came back from Ohio, 00:20:17.340 --> 00:20:19.097 we were doing our final site survey. 00:20:19.180 --> 00:20:21.260 We have our first main building. 00:20:22.260 --> 00:20:25.307 We have our first main building done, about a million square feet, 00:20:25.390 --> 00:20:28.977 and we have the exterior work done on the second building. 00:20:29.060 --> 00:20:32.317 So that first line is actually gonna be coming online in a matter of weeks. 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:33.950 - What's rolling off that line? 00:20:34.980 --> 00:20:41.367 - We are making a variety of aircraft and missiles and other stuff. 00:20:41.450 --> 00:20:46.247 - So like Barracuda and Fury? - Barracuda is there, Fury is there. 00:20:46.330 --> 00:20:50.207 There's another aircraft that we're making there as well for a different. 00:20:50.290 --> 00:20:54.717 Look, this facility is making things for SOCOM, for the Army, for the Marine Corps, 00:20:54.800 --> 00:20:57.717 for the Air Force, and one other customer. 00:20:57.800 --> 00:21:03.177 I mean, like we already have the space all allocated to make all of these things. 00:21:03.260 --> 00:21:06.847 You know, it's more slanted towards one customer than another 00:21:06.930 --> 00:21:08.387 in terms of square footage right now. 00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:10.977 But yeah, that's coming online in a matter of weeks. 00:21:11.060 --> 00:21:15.310 And we should be at full scale with that by, 00:21:18.280 --> 00:21:21.030 it'll probably be Q2 next year. 00:21:25.080 --> 00:21:28.040 who's ahead in the AI race? US, China? 00:21:29.700 --> 00:21:32.247 - The United States is ahead in the AI race. 00:21:32.330 --> 00:21:34.837 - How big is the gap? - It's extremely small, 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.547 because China's been doing a very good job 00:21:36.630 --> 00:21:39.837 of distilling our models, copying a lot of our technology, 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:45.267 leveraging open-source AI advancements and getting those advancements into fielding, 00:21:45.350 --> 00:21:49.267 not just with the military, but also their police state, their surveillance apparatus 00:21:49.350 --> 00:21:51.227 much, much faster than the United States has. 00:21:51.310 --> 00:21:54.267 I'm not saying we need to build a, you know, police state, 00:21:54.350 --> 00:21:56.857 a surveillance apparatus. I'm just recognizing 00:21:56.940 --> 00:22:00.737 that China has the will at the top 00:22:00.820 --> 00:22:03.157 to push these things out much faster than the United States. 00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:07.407 And you can criticize authoritarian regimes while still recognizing 00:22:07.490 --> 00:22:09.867 that certain structural advantages exist, 00:22:09.950 --> 00:22:13.787 and China is maximizing those structural advantages 00:22:13.870 --> 00:22:17.967 to push AI into their entire government and its fingers, 00:22:18.050 --> 00:22:19.587 I think, faster than the United States. 00:22:19.670 --> 00:22:21.047 Like I would say the Department of War 00:22:21.130 --> 00:22:24.547 is the furthest along in pushing AI into a lot of these. 00:22:24.630 --> 00:22:29.017 I mean, like they're using AI right now in this Iran operation to great effect. 00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:32.227 Try to name another part of government that is leveraging AI that effectively. 00:22:32.310 --> 00:22:35.187 Yeah, like the Department of War, and I think probably 00:22:35.270 --> 00:22:38.897 because you have personalities like Emil, you know, in the lead, 00:22:38.980 --> 00:22:41.277 that's why they're leveraging it so quickly. 00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:43.777 You know, I'm not putting down Trump's other appointees 00:22:43.860 --> 00:22:46.867 of the other departments, but you, in the bureaucracies particularly, 00:22:46.950 --> 00:22:48.997 you are not seeing Department of Agriculture using AI 00:22:49.080 --> 00:22:50.497 as effectively as the Department of War. 00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:54.327 You're certainly not seeing the Department of Education 00:22:54.410 --> 00:22:55.707 using it as effectively as they could. 00:22:55.790 --> 00:22:59.047 It's probably like Department of War then maybe Department of Energy 00:22:59.130 --> 00:23:01.830 are probably the two that I would say are in the lead. 00:23:05.130 --> 00:23:07.387 - You had subterranean on your website. 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:09.677 - That's right. - You went a bit viral the other week or month 00:23:09.760 --> 00:23:12.347 for talking about subterranean capabilities. 00:23:12.430 --> 00:23:14.307 What are you guys planning? What are up to? 00:23:14.390 --> 00:23:17.057 - Anduril has working prototypes of subterranean systems 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:20.987 that can deliver a variety of kinetic, electronic, and other effects. 00:23:21.070 --> 00:23:23.777 I've been talking about it louder and louder and louder, 00:23:23.860 --> 00:23:26.027 because, first, when I started talking about it 00:23:26.110 --> 00:23:28.577 before we had built anything years ago, everyone thought that I was crazy. 00:23:28.660 --> 00:23:30.077 And to be clear, the thing people thought was crazy 00:23:30.160 --> 00:23:30.287 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 00:23:30.370 --> 00:23:32.957 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 00:23:33.040 --> 00:23:35.207 before it's the moon, is the subterranean domain." 00:23:35.290 --> 00:23:37.037 - Is it subterranean, then the moon? 00:23:37.120 --> 00:23:38.417 - Yeah, subterranean, then the moon. 00:23:38.500 --> 00:23:42.047 The moon's just gonna take longer to become an actual war-fighting domain. 00:23:42.130 --> 00:23:45.297 And I'd say it's not a domain when it's like a special weirdo little place 00:23:45.380 --> 00:23:46.427 where a few people might live. 00:23:46.510 --> 00:23:48.547 Like it needs to be larger than that. 00:23:48.630 --> 00:23:51.477 Look, the United States and the Soviet Union both believed during the Cold War 00:23:51.560 --> 00:23:54.137 that the crust of the earth would turn into a battle space, 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:58.517 and that you would move people and machines and effects 00:23:58.600 --> 00:24:01.937 through fire and logistics chains using the crust of the earth 00:24:02.020 --> 00:24:05.147 the same way that a submarine moves through the ocean. 00:24:05.230 --> 00:24:07.107 And I think that the thing that killed that dream 00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:09.737 isn't that we decided that it was impossible, 00:24:09.820 --> 00:24:12.947 it was that we won the Cold War and we turned the spigot off 00:24:13.030 --> 00:24:15.117 on a lot of very, very interesting things. 00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.497 The difference now is that with the power of autonomy, 00:24:17.580 --> 00:24:21.540 you can now build these things much more cheaply, much, much, much lower risk. 00:24:21.840 --> 00:24:24.167 I've been talking louder and louder about this, 00:24:24.250 --> 00:24:26.257 because when I talk about these things, 00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:29.717 it acts as a lighthouse that attracts all of the people. 00:24:29.800 --> 00:24:31.597 They say, "Wait, what's that over there? 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:32.597 There's a guy who's doing this." 00:24:32.680 --> 00:24:35.937 And so I'm talking about it loudly to attract all the right people, 00:24:36.020 --> 00:24:37.687 the people who wanna work on these problems, 00:24:37.770 --> 00:24:40.057 the people in government who need to solve these problems. 00:24:40.140 --> 00:24:45.440 And it's moving along slower than I would like, because it seems so crazy. 00:24:46.280 --> 00:24:48.197 It isn't. - Palmer, thanks for the time. 00:24:48.280 --> 00:24:49.280 - Thank you so much. 00:24:53.530 --> 00:24:55.577 - Lightning round? - Let's do it. - Okay. 00:24:55.660 --> 00:24:57.560 How long does it take to do your hair? 00:25:00.330 --> 00:25:02.627 You and me both. (chuckling) - That's it. 00:25:02.710 --> 00:25:06.047 - You unveiled EagleEye at AUSA in October. 00:25:06.130 --> 00:25:08.877 Does it have cat ears? - I have seen the rumors, and I have to admit, 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:11.347 there may have definitely been some consideration. 00:25:11.430 --> 00:25:13.267 Internally, we actually call them wolf ears. 00:25:13.350 --> 00:25:17.187 - Okay. - Last question, might be your favorite, 00:25:17.270 --> 00:25:20.730 is Yoko Taro the right person to reboot Evangelion? 00:25:21.730 --> 00:25:25.397 - I have a lot of trust in Hideaki Anno and his judgment 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:27.317 when it comes to the franchise. 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:29.607 And if he believes it is the right choice, 00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:33.947 and he is, you know, notoriously protective of that intellectual property. 00:25:34.030 --> 00:25:38.207 All the licenses of Evangelion have to be personally approved by him. 00:25:38.290 --> 00:25:42.787 I think that if he is okay with it, then so too must I. 00:25:42.870 --> 00:25:43.750 - You a NieR fan? 00:25:45.500 --> 00:25:46.500 - No, not really.