1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:02,587 - I would definitely build nuclear weapons. 2 00:00:02,670 --> 00:00:03,707 I would build fission weapons. 3 00:00:03,790 --> 00:00:05,240 I would build fusion weapons. 4 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,387 - Do you think your bluntness comes across as rude or off-putting? 5 00:00:10,470 --> 00:00:12,820 - I think to certain people it definitely does. 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,317 The next war-fighting domain, before it's the moon, is the subterranean domain." 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:22,647 - Is it subterranean, then the moon? 8 00:00:22,730 --> 00:00:24,530 - Yeah, subterranean, then the moon. 9 00:00:27,820 --> 00:00:30,407 - Palmer Luckey, good to see you again, and welcome to the "Axios Show." 10 00:00:30,490 --> 00:00:31,947 - Thank you for having us on. - Thank you for having us on. 11 00:00:32,030 --> 00:00:35,367 - You are the founder and figurehead of Anduril Industries, 12 00:00:35,450 --> 00:00:39,917 among the splashiest, fastest growing, most pro-autonomy 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,377 and polarizing defense contractors on the planet, I would hazard? 14 00:00:43,460 --> 00:00:46,837 - Wow, seven descriptors. - Yes, I'm big on adjectives. 15 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,927 You have your haters and you have your hot takes, 16 00:00:50,010 --> 00:00:52,547 so I would like to lean into both if you're game. 17 00:00:52,630 --> 00:00:56,017 - I am always game to lean into the things that make me polarizing. 18 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:57,600 - Fantastic. 19 00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:04,977 Describe for me Anduril in one sentence, one quick sentence. 20 00:01:05,060 --> 00:01:08,397 Anduril is a defense product company that spends its own money 21 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,617 designing, developing, and shipping tools that will save taxpayers 22 00:01:11,700 --> 00:01:13,697 hundreds of billions of dollars a year 23 00:01:13,780 --> 00:01:17,157 as we make tens of billions of dollars a year, someday. 24 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,287 - Someday. - We're not there yet. 25 00:01:19,370 --> 00:01:21,420 - Describe to me the culture in one word. 26 00:01:22,460 --> 00:01:23,293 - Effective. 27 00:01:24,210 --> 00:01:25,043 - Why? 28 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,047 - Almost everything that we have here is oriented around what type of competence 29 00:01:30,130 --> 00:01:33,217 will lead to actually delivering things that actually work with the customer 30 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:34,970 on a timeline that is relevant. 31 00:01:35,430 --> 00:01:37,227 we need to build tools that are effective. 32 00:01:37,310 --> 00:01:41,057 And sometimes something needs to come now rather than later to be effective. 33 00:01:41,140 --> 00:01:43,307 Sometimes it needs to be higher capability to be effective or not. 34 00:01:43,390 --> 00:01:46,187 Sometimes, if it's not cheap enough to buy in scale that matters, 35 00:01:46,270 --> 00:01:49,897 then it's not effective. We're about 20% veterans here. 36 00:01:49,980 --> 00:01:51,947 People are very close to the customers. 37 00:01:52,030 --> 00:01:55,277 They're very close to the deployments, and they understand, 38 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,327 I think, a lot better than a lot of other companies, 39 00:01:57,410 --> 00:01:59,747 how the military is truly using our tools. 40 00:01:59,830 --> 00:02:01,117 We have people who are forward deployed. 41 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:03,247 We have people who are overseas in the Middle East right now. 42 00:02:03,330 --> 00:02:05,957 We've had people who are in Ukraine since the second week of the war. 43 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,667 And so I think we have a very good understanding 44 00:02:08,750 --> 00:02:12,047 of what it takes to be effective with our customers. 45 00:02:12,130 --> 00:02:14,047 And if we don't, we develop it. 46 00:02:14,130 --> 00:02:16,887 If we go and we learn that we are screwing it up, 47 00:02:16,970 --> 00:02:18,427 we put our own resources into fixing it. 48 00:02:18,510 --> 00:02:21,637 - To zoom out on effective, where in the world have you been effective? 49 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,607 Is that Ukraine with drones? Is that Australia with Ghost Shark? 50 00:02:25,690 --> 00:02:29,730 Is that the Middle East? - So we've been effective in, 51 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,817 we've been effective in a lot of places. 52 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,117 And, of course, we've had bouts where it was ineffective. 53 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:39,617 You know, like I'd say we've been very effective in the Middle East right now. 54 00:02:39,700 --> 00:02:43,707 We've also had challenges in the past, and then we've surged resources 55 00:02:43,790 --> 00:02:49,207 to get that fixed, which is one of the reasons that things are working now. 56 00:02:49,290 --> 00:02:50,797 But I think we've been effective in Ukraine. 57 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,087 Australia, we're really just beginning to deliver there, right? 58 00:02:53,170 --> 00:02:55,137 We've built a factory there. We've hired a large team there. 59 00:02:55,220 --> 00:02:58,967 We've developed this Ghost Shark program with them building robotic submarines 60 00:02:59,050 --> 00:03:00,767 at a very large scale, very quickly. 61 00:03:00,850 --> 00:03:03,637 We delivered the first submarine a year ahead of schedule. 62 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,687 I don't know if I would say that's like effective yet, 63 00:03:05,770 --> 00:03:08,107 because Australia's not fighting anybody right now. 64 00:03:08,190 --> 00:03:09,647 And I think they hope to keep it that way. 65 00:03:09,730 --> 00:03:11,107 So it's hard to prove, 66 00:03:11,190 --> 00:03:16,197 but I think Ukraine, Taiwan, certainly the United States, 67 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,570 we've proven that we are effective a number of times. 68 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:21,907 Your competition in the defense contracting world 69 00:03:21,990 --> 00:03:24,707 includes the entrenched primes, the Lockheeds, - Sure. 70 00:03:24,790 --> 00:03:27,327 - The Northrops, the Boeings. If I'm a Pentagon buyer, 71 00:03:27,410 --> 00:03:30,080 why do I buy Anduril versus those guys? 72 00:03:31,590 --> 00:03:32,757 - So it depends on what you're doing. 73 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,387 But, in general, the sense that a lot of people have in the Pentagon 74 00:03:38,470 --> 00:03:41,637 is that Anduril is a company that is going to move very, very quickly. 75 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,807 We're gonna bring a lot of our own resources to bear on the project, 76 00:03:44,890 --> 00:03:48,057 and that even when programs have run into political problems, 77 00:03:48,140 --> 00:03:50,517 because we're willing to spend our own money as a product company 78 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,437 continuing to keep things going, there's a number of programs 79 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,737 that have survived political breaks that would've killed 80 00:03:56,820 --> 00:03:58,157 a lot of traditional cost-plus programs. 81 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,657 And so I think a lot of the people in the program offices in the Pentagon 82 00:04:01,740 --> 00:04:04,197 that are making decisions, whether they're selecting Anduril 83 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,367 or, let's say, keeping Anduril in the mix. 84 00:04:06,450 --> 00:04:08,497 You know, it's not always, "We're gonna award to Anduril," 85 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:11,337 it's we're gonna select two or three companies to work on this. 86 00:04:11,420 --> 00:04:14,587 I think the reason we stay in that basket is they know that we'll move quickly. 87 00:04:14,670 --> 00:04:15,967 They know we'll put our own money in. 88 00:04:16,050 --> 00:04:18,177 They know that even when we run into political challenges, 89 00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:19,967 we're not gonna do a stop-work order. 90 00:04:20,050 --> 00:04:21,427 We're not gonna just shut down our lines. 91 00:04:21,510 --> 00:04:23,977 We're gonna keep moving and hope that we come out the other side. 92 00:04:24,060 --> 00:04:27,767 - You, Alex Karp at Palantir, Elon Musk, 93 00:04:27,850 --> 00:04:30,437 you all have a distinct style, a distinct tact. 94 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,317 And you have said, you've described it in the past as a bit of a caricature. 95 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,567 Do you need to be a bit of a caricature to run a successful defense company 96 00:04:38,650 --> 00:04:41,447 these days? - No. No. Some of the most successful defense companies I know 97 00:04:41,530 --> 00:04:43,577 are run by very competent operators. 98 00:04:43,660 --> 00:04:45,827 They're the most straight-laced guys you've ever seen. 99 00:04:45,910 --> 00:04:48,827 If you set us side by side, we'd look like a Japanese comedy duo, 100 00:04:48,910 --> 00:04:51,960 the straight man and the funny man playing off of each other. 101 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,007 I don't think you need to be a larger-than-life character. 102 00:04:56,090 --> 00:04:58,217 I think that what you see is the larger-than-life characters 103 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:02,797 are the ones that get the retweets or the Re-Truths. (chuckles) 104 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:06,517 And the straight players typically don't. 105 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,387 But that's also not what makes a company successful. 106 00:05:08,470 --> 00:05:09,897 the marketing that you get, that you see like on Twitter, 107 00:05:09,980 --> 00:05:11,727 it's primarily a recruiting engine. 108 00:05:11,810 --> 00:05:17,147 Like I'm not marketing to necessarily the guy who's buying my system. 109 00:05:17,230 --> 00:05:22,567 Like he's not the one who's, you know, checking out the hot takes. 110 00:05:22,650 --> 00:05:24,157 But for recruiting, it's helpful. 111 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,207 Like Anduril being out there and having a position, for example, 112 00:05:27,290 --> 00:05:31,287 on who should have the final call on how to use autonomous weapons 113 00:05:31,370 --> 00:05:36,377 or being out there and having an opinion on what good manufacturing looks like, 114 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:40,840 we are attracting the right people, and, I think, repelling the wrong people. 115 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,007 Our company probably wouldn't have gotten a lot of our best talent 116 00:05:44,090 --> 00:05:45,597 if we weren't out there in that way. 117 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,130 - What's the most badass thing Anduril has built? 118 00:05:48,810 --> 00:05:50,557 - I'm supposed to love all my children equally. 119 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:51,897 - Everyone has a favorite child. 120 00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:54,187 - Everyone, everyone. It's true. 121 00:05:54,270 --> 00:05:55,520 The science bears it out. 122 00:05:57,020 --> 00:06:02,237 I think the coolest thing, you know, there's a bit of recency bias here, 123 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:07,577 but I think that the coolest thing that we've built in my mind right now is Fury. 124 00:06:07,660 --> 00:06:11,040 It's an autonomous fighter jet for the United States Air Force. 125 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:15,297 You know, we were competing with a lot of the big guys. 126 00:06:15,380 --> 00:06:18,757 And to go toe to toe with them and then get selected by the Air Force 127 00:06:18,840 --> 00:06:23,387 to deliver these prototypes to them was just the coolest thing ever. 128 00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:24,967 Only about half of our products are public, 129 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:26,927 which is another thing that makes this difficult. 130 00:06:27,010 --> 00:06:30,097 But Fury was one where we went toe-to-toe with the big guys 131 00:06:30,180 --> 00:06:34,267 for their bread and butter, not like a side thing that they're not interested in, 132 00:06:34,350 --> 00:06:38,437 and we won. And that, to me, was very gratifying, 133 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,357 for me, for the team working on the product, 134 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:43,407 for all the other teams building mission systems 135 00:06:43,490 --> 00:06:46,447 and support stuff that went on the product, the people building the buildings 136 00:06:46,530 --> 00:06:48,580 that are being used to build the product. 137 00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:50,537 I think that that is one 138 00:06:50,620 --> 00:06:52,667 that everyone's still riding a bit of an emotional high on. 139 00:06:52,750 --> 00:06:55,537 - What won't you build? What's your red line? 140 00:06:55,620 --> 00:06:56,960 - What wouldn't I build? 141 00:06:58,420 --> 00:07:00,467 That's an interesting one. - Nuclear weapons. 142 00:07:00,550 --> 00:07:02,167 - I would definitely build nuclear weapons. 143 00:07:02,250 --> 00:07:03,297 I would build fission weapons. 144 00:07:03,380 --> 00:07:05,677 I would build fusion weapons. I think that nuclear weapons 145 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,887 have been one of the most stabilizing forces in history ever. 146 00:07:09,970 --> 00:07:13,267 It's never been like that in history where total war is off the table. 147 00:07:13,350 --> 00:07:15,857 So fission weapons, fusion weapons, absolutely I would build them. 148 00:07:15,940 --> 00:07:17,560 I would probably not build, 149 00:07:18,810 --> 00:07:20,437 I would not build biological weapons. 150 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,527 - Chemical weapons? - Chemical weapons I would build, 151 00:07:22,610 --> 00:07:24,157 but in a very specific vertical. 152 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:26,407 And this is a very controversial thing, and please don't clip, 153 00:07:26,490 --> 00:07:29,197 "Yes, I would build chemical weapons," and put it on the Axios- 154 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:30,907 - So I wanna be very, very specific about this. 155 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:35,077 And so if you guys post it, you know, please include this as well. 156 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:40,547 I'll give you an example. Pepper spray is illegal for most non-military police units 157 00:07:40,630 --> 00:07:43,877 to use in the military. So like certain MPs can use pepper spray. 158 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,967 We are not able to use pepper spray, tear gas 159 00:07:46,050 --> 00:07:48,297 as part of our conventional offensive military tactics. 160 00:07:48,380 --> 00:07:49,717 I think that's a huge mistake. 161 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:51,847 It falls under a lot of these chemical weapon prohibitions. 162 00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:55,477 And I understand the worries about fear of escalation or a slippery slope. 163 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,937 I think we understand chemical weapons enough 164 00:07:57,020 --> 00:08:01,107 to know there's no real slippery slope from literally hot pepper juice 165 00:08:01,190 --> 00:08:05,070 to, you know, nerve, nerve agents that are going to kill you. 166 00:08:48,070 --> 00:08:52,990 - Do you think the Pentagon overstepped labeling the company a supply-chain risk? 167 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:59,000 - I am of the mind that no. 168 00:09:00,290 --> 00:09:03,837 If anything, I think I may have been even more forceful in this rejection. 169 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,217 And let me tell you why. The only reason you have not seen, I think, 170 00:09:08,300 --> 00:09:11,007 a larger defection from other companies 171 00:09:11,090 --> 00:09:15,137 that are worried about, you know, similar problems 172 00:09:15,220 --> 00:09:17,767 is because of the forceful reaction of the Department. 173 00:09:17,850 --> 00:09:20,727 The Department is saying, "We are not gonna let you slippery slope this. 174 00:09:20,810 --> 00:09:24,397 We're not gonna let one company get their special provisions, 175 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,817 and then we're gonna have a different debate with a different company, 176 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:27,817 a different debate with a different entity." 177 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:29,987 Because these companies do have different values, right? 178 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:32,237 They're not gonna all simultaneously agree, 179 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,747 you know, "Anthropic's version of their limits is our version." 180 00:09:35,830 --> 00:09:39,497 What you end up with very quickly is a patchwork of different regulations 181 00:09:39,580 --> 00:09:41,077 across all these different companies. 182 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,667 And the Department now has to ask, is this operation, is this planning element, 183 00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:48,717 is this tool compliant with these five different companies versions 184 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,587 of what their limit is? And by the way, that version changes over time. 185 00:09:52,670 --> 00:09:54,177 They now have to weigh these things. 186 00:09:54,260 --> 00:09:57,677 Let's set aside the, you know, Anthropic was saying 187 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:02,267 it's about offensive autonomous weapons with no human in the loop 188 00:10:02,350 --> 00:10:04,607 or about mass surveillance. There's a lot of questions there. 189 00:10:04,690 --> 00:10:06,977 Like, okay, what defines offensive? 190 00:10:07,060 --> 00:10:08,987 What defines no human in the loop? 191 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:12,947 What defines weapon? What defines use, right? 192 00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:16,487 And I know this sounds a little bit like, you know, Bill Clinton, you know, 193 00:10:16,570 --> 00:10:20,867 depends on what the definition of is is thing, but these things really do matter. 194 00:10:20,950 --> 00:10:23,667 Imagine if it was something even more simple. 195 00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:28,797 A tech company said, "Department of War, I'll do anything that you want. 196 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,007 We will not turn it off unless you target innocent civilians. 197 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:38,097 We want it in paper that we can turn it off if you target innocent civilians." 198 00:10:38,180 --> 00:10:42,347 Well, what is targeting? Like, is it inadvertent versus explicit? 199 00:10:42,430 --> 00:10:44,767 What is innocence? Is it determined by the courts? 200 00:10:44,850 --> 00:10:46,307 Is it determined by the Hague? 201 00:10:46,390 --> 00:10:47,527 Is it determined by people in Brussels? 202 00:10:47,610 --> 00:10:51,027 Is it determined by Dario? What is a civilian? 203 00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:54,367 And who decides? What if there's civilian mixed in with other things? 204 00:10:54,450 --> 00:10:58,077 You run into these problems where, if you agree to this, 205 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,367 you are giving more power to private companies, 206 00:11:01,450 --> 00:11:05,327 executives making billions off taxpayers than the president of the United States. 207 00:11:05,410 --> 00:11:08,837 They could just unilaterally, you know, pull the keys on stuff 208 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,417 in a way that not even the commander-in-chief can do. 209 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:12,547 I don't think that that's correct. 210 00:11:12,630 --> 00:11:14,677 I think that our military has to be accountable 211 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,797 to our civilian elected leadership, not to corporations. 212 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,517 - Do you think this is more a battle of policies or personalities? 213 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,187 - Hmm. It's all, I mean, it's both, right? 214 00:11:24,270 --> 00:11:25,597 I mean, that's what politics is. 215 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,267 I think that there are people who know how to, like, 216 00:11:28,350 --> 00:11:31,937 I bet there is somebody in the tech world, I don't know if it's me, 217 00:11:32,020 --> 00:11:33,947 somebody probably could have gotten 218 00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:36,197 something equivalent to those policies through 219 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,947 by talking about it in exactly the right way, writing exactly the same thing, 220 00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:43,157 and making sure to not rub the wrong people the wrong way. 221 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,287 Like there, there's a way where you could talk people through these things. 222 00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:48,917 Maybe you could say, "Oh, you know, we're gonna do this 223 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,047 in a way that it's not taking authority away from you." 224 00:11:52,130 --> 00:11:55,427 Maybe it would be something like, instead of in our contract 225 00:11:55,510 --> 00:11:58,137 it says you can't do these things, it would say, you know, 226 00:11:58,220 --> 00:12:01,217 "We're handing this language over to Congress 227 00:12:01,300 --> 00:12:03,557 and should they ratify it, this is how it would go. 228 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,767 But of course we want your input on what these things would be." 229 00:12:06,850 --> 00:12:09,187 So look, personalities always enter into it. 230 00:12:09,270 --> 00:12:09,310 So look, personalities always enter into it. 231 00:12:09,350 --> 00:12:10,727 I'd be naive to say otherwise. 232 00:12:10,810 --> 00:12:14,237 - And I think probably the personalities in this case 233 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,657 did not approach this in the most collaborative way that they could, 234 00:12:18,740 --> 00:12:20,697 but in the end, I give the win to the Department, 235 00:12:20,780 --> 00:12:22,367 because they're the one that has to make sure 236 00:12:22,450 --> 00:12:26,207 that use of force and responsibility for force lies in the chain of command 237 00:12:26,290 --> 00:12:29,920 that is accountable to the people that we elect. 238 00:12:33,630 --> 00:12:35,667 - Another hot topic, Iran. - Sure. 239 00:12:35,750 --> 00:12:38,467 - Does does that require boots on the ground from the US to solve this? 240 00:12:38,550 --> 00:12:41,547 - Geez, I hope not. I mean, I don't think the United States 241 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:44,217 has the political will to do it, whether it's good or bad. 242 00:12:44,300 --> 00:12:45,347 I've been saying this for years. 243 00:12:45,430 --> 00:12:49,057 I think after our adventures in the Middle East of the last couple decades 244 00:12:49,140 --> 00:12:55,107 have robbed America of its ability to sustain a boots-on-the-ground campaign. 245 00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:58,987 I think that what Trump's doing, like, you know, whether it's in Venezuela or Iran, 246 00:12:59,070 --> 00:13:01,987 it's a totally new type of warfare, 247 00:13:02,070 --> 00:13:04,077 but I think it's born of strategic realities, right? 248 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,997 Like we do not have it in us to do this, for good reasons or bad. 249 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:09,827 I don't think that we're ready to go fight, 250 00:13:09,910 --> 00:13:13,297 let's say World War II for the right reasons, 251 00:13:13,380 --> 00:13:16,630 much less reasons that not everyone agrees with. 252 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,967 I think that we don't have another D-Day in us right now, 253 00:13:20,050 --> 00:13:22,677 and I think that's actually a bit of a problem. 254 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:26,017 I think that it means that even in a very important fight, we might not show up, 255 00:13:26,100 --> 00:13:27,557 but it's one of the reasons I've been saying 256 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,307 the United States probably needs to transition from being the world police 257 00:13:30,390 --> 00:13:33,857 to being the world gun store. We need to give the people that work with us, 258 00:13:33,940 --> 00:13:36,817 who have a stronger stake in these interests than even we do, 259 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:38,857 the tools that they need to defend themselves 260 00:13:38,940 --> 00:13:41,237 and hopefully align with US interests. 261 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,577 I don't think it's gonna go to boots on the ground. 262 00:13:43,660 --> 00:13:47,287 Maybe I'll be eating my words in a week, but I don't think that we have it in us. 263 00:13:47,370 --> 00:13:50,747 - So Trump ran as a bit of an anti-war president, some in MAGA- 264 00:13:50,830 --> 00:13:52,957 - And he and he did that even in the first one. 265 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,837 You know, remember when Hillary Clinton was running 266 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,417 and saying she would enforce a no-fly zone in Syria. 267 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,547 And you had Trump saying, they'd say, "Well, well what would you do, you know, 268 00:14:00,630 --> 00:14:03,797 if you were president?" He said, "Well, I wouldn't start World War III." 269 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,807 And, I have to admit, that resonated with me. 270 00:14:06,890 --> 00:14:09,807 I was like, you know what, that's probably the right attitude 271 00:14:09,890 --> 00:14:12,397 in terms of not starting wars needlessly, 272 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:15,017 not expending munitions and arms and industrial capacity 273 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,147 that we need to fight more important wars than that particular issue. 274 00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:19,987 - Is the Iran war an important one? 275 00:14:20,070 --> 00:14:21,947 - Here's the thing, I'm not in the Gang of Eight. 276 00:14:22,030 --> 00:14:24,450 I haven't seen the briefing that people saw. 277 00:14:25,870 --> 00:14:31,287 So far you've had people saying, and you know, whether it's Secretary Rubio 278 00:14:31,370 --> 00:14:33,957 or other people in Congress who were briefed 279 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,997 that there was an imminent threat to the United States 280 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,167 to, not just servicemen, but also civilians. 281 00:14:40,250 --> 00:14:42,757 It seems to be, this is not necessarily based on the briefing, 282 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,587 but things have leaked out 283 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:48,057 is we now know that Israel was planning a preemptive strike 284 00:14:48,140 --> 00:14:49,967 because they believed that if they did not, 285 00:14:50,050 --> 00:14:53,937 there was going to be a large-scale attack on Israel. 286 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:55,557 And so it becomes one of those things 287 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,980 where I don't have enough information to say. 288 00:14:59,060 --> 00:15:01,567 I think that probably we'll find out in the long run 289 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:06,530 if this is as justified as it seems to the administration. 290 00:15:10,580 --> 00:15:14,000 - Who is emerging as influential at the Pentagon? 291 00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:17,247 When they call you, you pick up. 292 00:15:17,330 --> 00:15:19,757 Is that Pete Hegseth? Is that Steve Feinberg? 293 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:20,890 Is that someone else? 294 00:15:21,750 --> 00:15:24,047 If Steve wants to talk to me, I talk with him. 295 00:15:24,130 --> 00:15:26,677 If Emil wants to talk with me, I talk with him. 296 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,557 If Hegseth calls me, I talk to him. 297 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,677 I have actually myself- - Have they all called you? 298 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,477 - Let me think about that. I mean, maybe this is too much to talk about publicly, 299 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,187 but I don't think they'll mind. 300 00:15:38,270 --> 00:15:41,187 I've, of course, met and had meetings with all of them. 301 00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:45,157 In terms of an actual phone call from them, I've had calls from Pete. 302 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,740 I've had calls from Emil. I have not yet had a call out of the blue from Steve, 303 00:15:51,990 --> 00:15:54,157 but, look, these guys, I don't know if I would say 304 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:56,957 they're, like, emerging as influential so much as they were appointed 305 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,997 into these extremely influential roles. 306 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,707 And so, of course, of course they're influential. 307 00:16:01,790 --> 00:16:04,967 They're the ones who are tasked with making these decisions. 308 00:16:05,050 --> 00:16:06,427 From what I understand, 309 00:16:06,510 --> 00:16:09,887 they're running this whole organization a little differently 310 00:16:09,970 --> 00:16:11,017 than people have run in the past. 311 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,767 It's not just me getting the call, I guess would be my point. - Yeah. 312 00:16:13,850 --> 00:16:15,937 - I think that they're calling up lots of other people. 313 00:16:16,020 --> 00:16:18,147 And by the way, the calls are not necessarily, 314 00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:20,057 "Hey, I've got good news for you." 315 00:16:20,140 --> 00:16:23,647 There's also a lot of, "Hey, you need to fix your shit 316 00:16:23,730 --> 00:16:26,777 on X, Y, and Z. - Like the RTX tweet we saw from the President. 317 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:30,617 I think that that is exactly how this whole department is being run right now. 318 00:16:30,700 --> 00:16:32,697 Like that's the president doing it in public. - By Twitter or by? 319 00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:34,197 - That's the president doing it in public. 320 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:37,037 But I think that you have a lot of this pressure from the department as well. 321 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:38,830 They're learning that the best way 322 00:16:40,420 --> 00:16:44,707 to fix these problems is to be very, very honest and open about it 323 00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:46,507 and not filter it through, you know, 324 00:16:46,590 --> 00:16:49,927 let's say, a program review that comes out months later 325 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:53,217 that concludes with like, "Performance unsatisfactory." 326 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:55,977 You want to put pressure on people early enough 327 00:16:56,060 --> 00:16:58,347 that they can actually course correct and adapt. 328 00:16:58,430 --> 00:17:00,767 And so I very much appreciate all of this. 329 00:17:00,850 --> 00:17:04,277 To be honest, even talking with my, I wanna say competitors, 330 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:05,947 but remember we also collaborate 331 00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:07,947 with companies like Raytheon and Northrop and Lockheed. 332 00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:09,737 In fact, we're teamed up on certain programs. 333 00:17:09,820 --> 00:17:13,827 So I guess my colleagues. In my conversations with my colleagues there, 334 00:17:13,910 --> 00:17:15,657 they actually appreciate this as well. 335 00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:21,037 They probably don't like being slammed in the press, you know, or on Truth Social, 336 00:17:21,120 --> 00:17:24,087 but they do appreciate the early feedback 337 00:17:24,170 --> 00:17:26,127 from senior leaders on what they're getting wrong 338 00:17:26,210 --> 00:17:30,007 and what they're getting right, because they have the ability to course correct. 339 00:17:30,090 --> 00:17:34,057 You mentioned before we started, Gavin Newsom saved Anduril. 340 00:17:34,140 --> 00:17:38,850 - Oh, yes, that's right. And I said, "I think he did it without even knowing." 341 00:17:40,430 --> 00:17:42,477 This is not to say that Gavin did this, 342 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,767 because he wasn't even thinking of Anduril. 343 00:17:43,850 --> 00:17:47,697 I suspect he was not at all. But the California state legislature passed a bill 344 00:17:47,780 --> 00:17:49,897 that was regulating AI. So it made it through the house 345 00:17:49,980 --> 00:17:51,680 and it made it through the Senate, 346 00:17:52,740 --> 00:17:57,157 not with a super majority. So it was not a bill that could not be vetoed. 347 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,957 And one of the provisions in the bill said that it was illegal 348 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:05,037 for companies to build products with AI that cause harm to humans, 349 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,667 in fact, that could cause physical harm to humans. 350 00:18:08,750 --> 00:18:12,837 This would've been a total prohibition on using artificial intelligence on weapons 351 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:14,427 for the United States military. 352 00:18:14,510 --> 00:18:16,387 And I think that this is a terrible thing. 353 00:18:16,470 --> 00:18:20,937 Gavin vetoed the bill, and I'm very, very glad that he did. 354 00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:22,597 I think, look- - Have you told him this? 355 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:27,277 0 I have not told him this. If I have the chance, I probably will mention it to him. 356 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,737 Look, me and Gavin, we disagree on a lot of things. 357 00:18:29,820 --> 00:18:34,117 There's plenty of things that I could criticize Gavin Newsom on. 358 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,787 But I will say, on the balance, he is not one of the crazy people, right? 359 00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:41,617 You can disagree with him very easily, but he is not someone 360 00:18:41,700 --> 00:18:44,957 who wants to tear down capital markets. 361 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:51,047 He does not want our military to be the weakest military in the world. 362 00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:53,967 Like he's generally a sane guy 363 00:18:54,050 --> 00:18:59,890 and apparently more sane than most of our legislators who voted for that bill. 364 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:05,647 - What needs to happen before Anduril goes public? 365 00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:08,897 Word on the street is that you're raising 4 billion at 60 billion. 366 00:19:08,980 --> 00:19:11,237 We reported that the other day. 367 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,907 - I can tell you that that's not quite right. 368 00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:18,077 But I will tell you also that we are basically continuously raising, 369 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,077 talking to investors. As long as there are things 370 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,037 that we think we could private capital to work on, building better tools, 371 00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:26,127 building better capacity, we're gonna do it. 372 00:19:26,210 --> 00:19:30,167 Like our last round, we raised, how much did we raise? 373 00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:32,127 It was quite a bit of money. I forget. - It was, yeah, billions. 374 00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:36,337 - It was billions of dollars. We put most of that money into building Arsenal-1, 375 00:19:36,420 --> 00:19:38,717 which is this 5-million-square-foot production facility 376 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,097 to build missiles, fighter jets, air defense systems, 377 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:45,470 all kinds of things at this huge facility. 378 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,107 And if we were raising right now, 379 00:19:48,190 --> 00:19:50,147 we'd be putting into basically exactly the same thing. 380 00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:53,567 So we need to massively scale up our capability. 381 00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:56,907 There's a huge number of things that we're making that are extremely relevant. 382 00:19:56,990 --> 00:20:01,157 And I cannot wait for the government to come, give me an order, give me money, 383 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:02,867 then start building the factory, 384 00:20:02,950 --> 00:20:05,327 then train the people to build it and then start building. 385 00:20:05,410 --> 00:20:08,667 - On Arsenal-1, y'all said the production lines could go hot 386 00:20:08,750 --> 00:20:11,840 as soon as this July, a few months from now. 387 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:14,837 - Actually, they're going live in a matter of weeks. 388 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,257 We're ahead of schedule. So I just came back from Ohio, 389 00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:19,097 we were doing our final site survey. 390 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:21,260 We have our first main building. 391 00:20:22,260 --> 00:20:25,307 We have our first main building done, about a million square feet, 392 00:20:25,390 --> 00:20:28,977 and we have the exterior work done on the second building. 393 00:20:29,060 --> 00:20:32,317 So that first line is actually gonna be coming online in a matter of weeks. 394 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:33,950 - What's rolling off that line? 395 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:41,367 - We are making a variety of aircraft and missiles and other stuff. 396 00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:46,247 - So like Barracuda and Fury? - Barracuda is there, Fury is there. 397 00:20:46,330 --> 00:20:50,207 There's another aircraft that we're making there as well for a different. 398 00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:54,717 Look, this facility is making things for SOCOM, for the Army, for the Marine Corps, 399 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,717 for the Air Force, and one other customer. 400 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:03,177 I mean, like we already have the space all allocated to make all of these things. 401 00:21:03,260 --> 00:21:06,847 You know, it's more slanted towards one customer than another 402 00:21:06,930 --> 00:21:08,387 in terms of square footage right now. 403 00:21:08,470 --> 00:21:10,977 But yeah, that's coming online in a matter of weeks. 404 00:21:11,060 --> 00:21:15,310 And we should be at full scale with that by, 405 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,030 it'll probably be Q2 next year. 406 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,040 who's ahead in the AI race? US, China? 407 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:32,247 - The United States is ahead in the AI race. 408 00:21:32,330 --> 00:21:34,837 - How big is the gap? - It's extremely small, 409 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,547 because China's been doing a very good job 410 00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:39,837 of distilling our models, copying a lot of our technology, 411 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:45,267 leveraging open-source AI advancements and getting those advancements into fielding, 412 00:21:45,350 --> 00:21:49,267 not just with the military, but also their police state, their surveillance apparatus 413 00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:51,227 much, much faster than the United States has. 414 00:21:51,310 --> 00:21:54,267 I'm not saying we need to build a, you know, police state, 415 00:21:54,350 --> 00:21:56,857 a surveillance apparatus. I'm just recognizing 416 00:21:56,940 --> 00:22:00,737 that China has the will at the top 417 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:03,157 to push these things out much faster than the United States. 418 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,407 And you can criticize authoritarian regimes while still recognizing 419 00:22:07,490 --> 00:22:09,867 that certain structural advantages exist, 420 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:13,787 and China is maximizing those structural advantages 421 00:22:13,870 --> 00:22:17,967 to push AI into their entire government and its fingers, 422 00:22:18,050 --> 00:22:19,587 I think, faster than the United States. 423 00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:21,047 Like I would say the Department of War 424 00:22:21,130 --> 00:22:24,547 is the furthest along in pushing AI into a lot of these. 425 00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:29,017 I mean, like they're using AI right now in this Iran operation to great effect. 426 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:32,227 Try to name another part of government that is leveraging AI that effectively. 427 00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:35,187 Yeah, like the Department of War, and I think probably 428 00:22:35,270 --> 00:22:38,897 because you have personalities like Emil, you know, in the lead, 429 00:22:38,980 --> 00:22:41,277 that's why they're leveraging it so quickly. 430 00:22:41,360 --> 00:22:43,777 You know, I'm not putting down Trump's other appointees 431 00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:46,867 of the other departments, but you, in the bureaucracies particularly, 432 00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:48,997 you are not seeing Department of Agriculture using AI 433 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,497 as effectively as the Department of War. 434 00:22:50,580 --> 00:22:54,327 You're certainly not seeing the Department of Education 435 00:22:54,410 --> 00:22:55,707 using it as effectively as they could. 436 00:22:55,790 --> 00:22:59,047 It's probably like Department of War then maybe Department of Energy 437 00:22:59,130 --> 00:23:01,830 are probably the two that I would say are in the lead. 438 00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:07,387 - You had subterranean on your website. 439 00:23:07,470 --> 00:23:09,677 - That's right. - You went a bit viral the other week or month 440 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,347 for talking about subterranean capabilities. 441 00:23:12,430 --> 00:23:14,307 What are you guys planning? What are up to? 442 00:23:14,390 --> 00:23:17,057 - Anduril has working prototypes of subterranean systems 443 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:20,987 that can deliver a variety of kinetic, electronic, and other effects. 444 00:23:21,070 --> 00:23:23,777 I've been talking about it louder and louder and louder, 445 00:23:23,860 --> 00:23:26,027 because, first, when I started talking about it 446 00:23:26,110 --> 00:23:28,577 before we had built anything years ago, everyone thought that I was crazy. 447 00:23:28,660 --> 00:23:30,077 And to be clear, the thing people thought was crazy 448 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:30,287 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 449 00:23:30,370 --> 00:23:32,957 is I said, "I think the next war-fighting domain, 450 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,207 before it's the moon, is the subterranean domain." 451 00:23:35,290 --> 00:23:37,037 - Is it subterranean, then the moon? 452 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:38,417 - Yeah, subterranean, then the moon. 453 00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:42,047 The moon's just gonna take longer to become an actual war-fighting domain. 454 00:23:42,130 --> 00:23:45,297 And I'd say it's not a domain when it's like a special weirdo little place 455 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:46,427 where a few people might live. 456 00:23:46,510 --> 00:23:48,547 Like it needs to be larger than that. 457 00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:51,477 Look, the United States and the Soviet Union both believed during the Cold War 458 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,137 that the crust of the earth would turn into a battle space, 459 00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:58,517 and that you would move people and machines and effects 460 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,937 through fire and logistics chains using the crust of the earth 461 00:24:02,020 --> 00:24:05,147 the same way that a submarine moves through the ocean. 462 00:24:05,230 --> 00:24:07,107 And I think that the thing that killed that dream 463 00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:09,737 isn't that we decided that it was impossible, 464 00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:12,947 it was that we won the Cold War and we turned the spigot off 465 00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:15,117 on a lot of very, very interesting things. 466 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,497 The difference now is that with the power of autonomy, 467 00:24:17,580 --> 00:24:21,540 you can now build these things much more cheaply, much, much, much lower risk. 468 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,167 I've been talking louder and louder about this, 469 00:24:24,250 --> 00:24:26,257 because when I talk about these things, 470 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:29,717 it acts as a lighthouse that attracts all of the people. 471 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,597 They say, "Wait, what's that over there? 472 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:32,597 There's a guy who's doing this." 473 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,937 And so I'm talking about it loudly to attract all the right people, 474 00:24:36,020 --> 00:24:37,687 the people who wanna work on these problems, 475 00:24:37,770 --> 00:24:40,057 the people in government who need to solve these problems. 476 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:45,440 And it's moving along slower than I would like, because it seems so crazy. 477 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,197 It isn't. - Palmer, thanks for the time. 478 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:49,280 - Thank you so much. 479 00:24:53,530 --> 00:24:55,577 - Lightning round? - Let's do it. - Okay. 480 00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:57,560 How long does it take to do your hair? 481 00:25:00,330 --> 00:25:02,627 You and me both. (chuckling) - That's it. 482 00:25:02,710 --> 00:25:06,047 - You unveiled EagleEye at AUSA in October. 483 00:25:06,130 --> 00:25:08,877 Does it have cat ears? - I have seen the rumors, and I have to admit, 484 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,347 there may have definitely been some consideration. 485 00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:13,267 Internally, we actually call them wolf ears. 486 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:17,187 - Okay. - Last question, might be your favorite, 487 00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:20,730 is Yoko Taro the right person to reboot Evangelion? 488 00:25:21,730 --> 00:25:25,397 - I have a lot of trust in Hideaki Anno and his judgment 489 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,317 when it comes to the franchise. 490 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,607 And if he believes it is the right choice, 491 00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:33,947 and he is, you know, notoriously protective of that intellectual property. 492 00:25:34,030 --> 00:25:38,207 All the licenses of Evangelion have to be personally approved by him. 493 00:25:38,290 --> 00:25:42,787 I think that if he is okay with it, then so too must I. 494 00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:43,750 - You a NieR fan? 495 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:46,500 - No, not really.