WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.717
the Europeans, I mean, they have
a really different mindset for all this

00:00:02.800 --> 00:00:07.277
stuff. When when they talk about AI
leadership, what they mean is that

00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:10.957
they're taking the lead in defining the
regulations. You know, they get together

00:00:11.040 --> 00:00:13.917
in Brussels and figure out what all
the rules should be. And that's what they

00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:15.757
call leadership.
>> It's almost like a game show or

00:00:15.840 --> 00:00:18.157
something. They do everything they can
to strangle them in their crib and then

00:00:18.240 --> 00:00:21.437
if they if they make it if they make
[laughter] it through like a decade of

00:00:21.520 --> 00:00:23.677
abuse of small companies, then they're
going to give them the money to grow.

00:00:23.760 --> 00:00:26.957
>> Ronald Reagan had a line about this,
which is if it moves, tax it. If it

00:00:27.040 --> 00:00:30.557
keeps moving, regulate it.
If it stops moving, subsidize it.

00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:36.040
>> Yeah. >> Uh the Europeans are
definitely at the subsidize it stage.

00:00:37.120 --> 00:00:39.037
>> David, welcome to the Asz podcast.

00:00:39.120 --> 00:00:40.957
Thanks for joining.
>> Yeah, good to be here.

00:00:41.040 --> 00:00:43.197
>> So, David, you're the AI and cryptozar.

00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:45.917
Why don't you first talk about why
it makes sense to have those as a

00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:48.797
portfolio? What do they have to do with
each other? And then I'll have you lay

00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:51.677
out what's the what's the what's the Trump
plan on those those two categories

00:00:51.760 --> 00:00:55.277
and how we're doing. >> Well,
there are two technologies that I

00:00:55.360 --> 00:00:58.317
guess are relatively new. And so there's

00:00:58.400 --> 00:01:03.517
a lot of fear of them and uh I think
people don't actually know that much

00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:07.597
about them. They don't really know what
to make of them. I think that from a

00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:10.317
policy standpoint and we can talk about
the similarities and differences. The

00:01:10.400 --> 00:01:11.917
the approaches are a little different.

00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:15.677
Um I think with crypto, the main thing

00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:18.877
that's needed is regulatory certainty.

00:01:18.960 --> 00:01:22.877
You know, all the entrepreneurs I've
talked to over the years, they they all

00:01:22.960 --> 00:01:25.837
say the same thing, which is just tell
us what the rules are. were happy to

00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:29.277
comply, but people, you know, Washington
won't tell us what they are. And in

00:01:29.360 --> 00:01:31.677
fact, during the Biden years, you had um

00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.757
an SEC chairman who uh took an approach,

00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:40.397
which I guess has been called um
regulation through uh enforcement, which

00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:41.917
basically means you just get prosecuted.

00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:43.037
They don't tell you what the rules are.

00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.197
You just basically get indicted and then

00:01:45.280 --> 00:01:47.357
everyone else is supposed to divine what

00:01:47.440 --> 00:01:50.637
the rules are um as you get prosecuted

00:01:50.720 --> 00:01:55.517
and fined and imprisoned. So, that was
the approach for several years. and um

00:01:55.600 --> 00:01:59.437
you know and and and there and as
a result of that basically the whole

00:01:59.520 --> 00:02:01.597
crypto industry was in the process of

00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:04.957
moving offshore and uh and America I

00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:07.037
think was being deprived of this

00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:09.757
industry of the future. And so President

00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:13.517
Trump during his campaign and last year

00:02:13.600 --> 00:02:17.917
he gave a now famous speech in Nashville
in which he declared that he would make

00:02:18.000 --> 00:02:21.357
the United States the crypto capital
of the planet and that he would fire

00:02:21.440 --> 00:02:24.637
Gendler. That was like the big applause
line. I think he He's talked about I

00:02:24.720 --> 00:02:27.917
applauded [laughter] >> he's
talked about how surprised he was

00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:32.797
at you know what a big uh you know
ovation he got at that. So he said it

00:02:32.880 --> 00:02:35.917
again and you know the crowd erupted
again but in any event he promised

00:02:36.000 --> 00:02:41.277
basically to provide this clarity so
that um you know the the industry would

00:02:41.360 --> 00:02:45.917
um understand what the rules are be able
to comply in turn that gives that should

00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:48.077
provide uh greater protection for

00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:51.037
consumers and um businesses everyone

00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:55.437
who's part of the ecosystem. uh and it
makes America more competitive. So I

00:02:55.520 --> 00:02:57.277
think that's sort of the the the the

00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.357
mandate on on crypto is uh it in a way

00:03:01.440 --> 00:03:04.157
it's pro- regulation. It's basically we

00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:09.517
we want to put in place regulations
in a in a way AI is kind of the opposite

00:03:09.600 --> 00:03:13.437
where I think the B administration was
too heavy-handed. They were starting to

00:03:13.520 --> 00:03:17.517
really regulate this area without even
understanding what it was. they weren't

00:03:17.600 --> 00:03:21.677
they had no one had really taken
the time to understand uh how AI was even

00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:24.397
being used what the real u dangers were

00:03:24.480 --> 00:03:26.877
there was this intense fear-mongering

00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.437
and as a result of that you know the

00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:33.917
approach of the b administration
was uh they were in the process of of

00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:37.677
implementing very heavy-handed
regulations on both the software and

00:03:37.760 --> 00:03:40.717
hardware side and we can drill into that

00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:45.037
I think that with the Trump
administration um the approach has been

00:03:45.120 --> 00:03:49.437
that we want the United States
to win the AI race. Um, it's a global

00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:53.917
competition. Um, sometimes we mention
the fact that China is our probably our

00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.517
main competitor in this area. They're
the only other country that has the

00:03:57.600 --> 00:04:00.717
technological capability, the talent,

00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:04.157
the knowhow, the um expertise to to beat

00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:08.717
us in this area. And we want to make
sure the United States wins. Um, and of

00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.237
course in the US it's not really
the government that's responsible for

00:04:12.320 --> 00:04:15.837
innovation. It's the private sector.
So that means that our companies have to

00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:19.757
win and if you're imposing all sorts
of crazy um burdensome regulation on them

00:04:19.840 --> 00:04:21.597
then that's going to hurt not not help.

00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:24.717
So um the president gave a I think very

00:04:24.800 --> 00:04:29.357
important AI policy speech a couple
months ago on July 23rd where he

00:04:29.440 --> 00:04:33.917
declared in no uncertain terms that we
had to win the AI race and he laid out

00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:36.157
several pillars on on how we do that. it

00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:40.957
was pro- innovation, pro infrastructure,
which also means uh pro energy and pro

00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.477
export. And we can drill into all those
things if you want, but that was sort of

00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.117
the the high line. And so I think that,

00:04:47.200 --> 00:04:52.317
you know, again with with AI, um
the idea is kind of like how do we unleash

00:04:52.400 --> 00:04:55.437
innovation? And I think with crypto,
it's been more about how do we create

00:04:55.520 --> 00:05:00.877
regulatory certainty. Um but you know,
in terms of my role, like what you know,

00:05:00.960 --> 00:05:04.077
why why am I doing both? I mean, I think
the common denominator is just again,

00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:09.357
these are new technologies. They um,
you know, they're both um, you know,

00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:11.837
obviously come from from the tech
industry, which has a very different

00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:16.957
culture than Washington does. And I kind
of see it as my role to help be a bridge

00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:19.437
between what's happening in Silicon
Valley and what's happening in

00:05:19.520 --> 00:05:23.277
Washington and helping Washington

00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:25.837
understand not just the policy that's

00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.317
needed or or the innovation that's
happening but also kind of culturally,

00:05:30.400 --> 00:05:32.237
you know, what what makes the tech

00:05:32.320 --> 00:05:33.837
industry different and special and and

00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:37.437
how that needs to be protected um from

00:05:37.520 --> 00:05:41.517
uh government doing something uh
excessively heavy-handed. So, um, so

00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:44.637
David, you know, we're going to talk
a lot about AI today, but just on crypto,

00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.597
I've I've had this interesting
experience this year kind of after the,

00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:50.557
you know, election, you know, kind
of people adjusted to the change, uh, of

00:05:50.640 --> 00:05:53.837
government. And I've had this discussion
with, you know, a number of people who,

00:05:53.920 --> 00:05:57.677
let's say, in in politics who were
previously anti-crypto, who have been,

00:05:57.760 --> 00:06:00.637
you know, trying to figure out how to kind
of get to a more sensible position.

00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.437
Um, and then also actually people in the
in the financial services industry who

00:06:03.520 --> 00:06:06.397
kind of followed it from a distance,
um, and maybe, you know, participated in

00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:08.957
the, you know, the various debunking
things without really understanding what

00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.717
was happening. Uh but the the common
denominator has been they're like you

00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:17.437
know Mark I didn't really understand um
how bad it was. Um, I basically thought

00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:21.757
you guys in tech were basically
just whining a lot. Um, and you know,

00:06:21.840 --> 00:06:25.437
pleading as a special interest, um,
and kind of doing the normal thing. And I

00:06:25.520 --> 00:06:28.317
figured, you know, the the, you know,
the horror stories were kind of made up,

00:06:28.400 --> 00:06:31.437
you know, of people getting prosecuted
and, you know, entrepreneurs getting

00:06:31.520 --> 00:06:34.717
their houses raided by the FBI and,
you know, like the whole paniply of things

00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:38.797
that, you know, that happened and like
I didn't really I I now in retrospect now

00:06:38.880 --> 00:06:41.517
that I now that I go back and look, I'm
like, "Oh my god, this was actually much

00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.677
worse than I thought." Um, what do you
do you do you have that experience? And

00:06:45.760 --> 00:06:48.637
as as as you're in there and kind
of as you now have like a complete view of

00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.517
everything that happens, like do do you
think people understand actually how bad

00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:54.317
it was? >> I mean,
I think it's a a great point. I

00:06:54.400 --> 00:06:58.077
mean, I didn't really know either.
You kind of heard um generally I mean, we

00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:01.757
knew that there was debanking going
on and and by the way, it wasn't just

00:07:01.840 --> 00:07:03.997
crypto companies that were being debanked,
but their founders were being

00:07:04.080 --> 00:07:08.317
debanked personally. So, if you were
the founder of a crypto company, you

00:07:08.400 --> 00:07:11.277
couldn't open a bank account. I mean,
that's a huge problem. It's like how do

00:07:11.360 --> 00:07:16.157
you how do you transact? How do you make
payments? um how do you pay people? I

00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:19.197
mean it basically deprivives you of a
livelihood. It's a very extreme form of

00:07:19.280 --> 00:07:22.157
censorship. So that was definitely
happening. And then of course you have

00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:25.357
all the the prosecutions uh that the SEC

00:07:25.440 --> 00:07:27.277
was behind. So yeah, it was it was

00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:30.077
really bad. I remember um back in I

00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.477
think it was in March uh we had a crypto

00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:35.117
summit at the White House and um one of

00:07:35.200 --> 00:07:39.837
the attendees said that you know a year
ago uh I would have thought it was more

00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.317
likely that I'd be in jail than that I'd
be at the White House. Um and so it was

00:07:44.400 --> 00:07:47.757
you know it was a really big milestone
for for the industry. They had never

00:07:47.840 --> 00:07:52.797
ever received any kind of recognition
like that. The idea that this was even a

00:07:52.880 --> 00:07:54.637
industry that you would do an event at

00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.837
the White House. I mean um at a minimum

00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.237
I think crypto is seen as very day

00:08:00.320 --> 00:08:03.677
class. Um but uh but in any event yeah

00:08:03.760 --> 00:08:05.277
no it's been a it's been a huge shift. I

00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:07.437
mean, we basically have have um have

00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:12.877
stopped that. And um and you know,
it was very unfair because again, these

00:08:12.960 --> 00:08:16.717
founders wanted to comply with the rules,
but they weren't told what they

00:08:16.800 --> 00:08:21.117
were. Um and that was all part of a
deliberate strategy, I think, to drive

00:08:21.200 --> 00:08:22.957
crypto offshore.

00:08:23.040 --> 00:08:26.717
>> Yeah. One of the things that um is very

00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:30.317
different between crypto and AI
that we've noticed is that on the crypto

00:08:30.400 --> 00:08:32.637
front, everybody just wanted rules. um

00:08:32.720 --> 00:08:35.837
and the industry was relatively unified.

00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:39.197
Whereas in AI, we've seen very like

00:08:39.280 --> 00:08:44.077
interesting kind of calls coming
from inside the house with uh certain

00:08:44.160 --> 00:08:47.757
companies really going for regulatory
capture. You know, people who have early

00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:51.997
leads saying let's cut off all new
companies from developing AI and so

00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:54.317
forth. Um what do you make of that and

00:08:54.400 --> 00:08:56.477
and where do you think that's going?

00:08:56.560 --> 00:08:59.037
>> I think it's I think it's a very big

00:08:59.120 --> 00:09:03.517
problem. Um I actually recently
criticized uh one of our AI model

00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.557
companies for engaging
in regulatory capture strategy.

00:09:06.640 --> 00:09:09.757
>> Yes. >> Um very fair
criticism by [laughter] the way.

00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:12.797
>> It is very fair
and actually um you know

00:09:12.880 --> 00:09:16.797
of course they denied it and then
uh should I tell the story? I mean

00:09:16.880 --> 00:09:19.117
>> yeah sure rarely do you get vindicated

00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:24.477
on on X so so thoroughly and completely
as I did on this because after this

00:09:24.560 --> 00:09:28.477
company it was basically anthropic after
they denied it. There was um I mean what

00:09:28.560 --> 00:09:31.597
basically happened is that Jack Clark
who's a co-founder and head of policy

00:09:31.680 --> 00:09:32.717
philanthropic

00:09:32.800 --> 00:09:35.837
>> gave a speech at a
a conference where he

00:09:35.920 --> 00:09:40.317
said that uh he compared fear of AI to a

00:09:40.400 --> 00:09:45.037
child um you know seeing monsters
in the dark or or or thinking there were

00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:48.237
monsters in the dark and but then you
turn the lights on and the monsters are

00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.357
there. I thought that was such a um

00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:56.317
ridiculous analogy. I mean it's
basically purile. I mean, it's it's so

00:09:56.400 --> 00:09:59.117
childish just to be almost
self-indicting because you're basically

00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:02.157
admitting the fear is made up, not real.

00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:03.837
>> Uh, in any event,
so I said, "Well, this

00:10:03.920 --> 00:10:06.797
is like fear-mongering and part of their
regulatory capture strategy." And of

00:10:06.880 --> 00:10:11.277
course, they denied it. But then um
a lawyer who was in the crowd at his

00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:14.797
speech said, "Well, yeah, but Jack's not
telling you what he said during the Q&A,

00:10:14.880 --> 00:10:19.757
which he basically admitted that
everything that Anthropic was doing was

00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:24.077
uh you know, with with like things
like SB53, which is supposedly just

00:10:24.160 --> 00:10:27.677
implementing transparency." He said,
"No, that's all that he admitted that

00:10:27.760 --> 00:10:29.917
was just a stepping
stone to their real goal,

00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:32.637
>> which was to get an approval, a system

00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:34.957
of pre-approvals in Washington before

00:10:35.040 --> 00:10:37.837
you can release new models." and he

00:10:37.920 --> 00:10:42.077
admitted as part of the Q&A that making
people very afraid was part of their

00:10:42.160 --> 00:10:44.237
strategy. So again, just as much as a

00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.037
smoking gun as you could ever get um in

00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.837
a in a spaton X. But the reason why I

00:10:49.920 --> 00:10:53.037
think that that approach is so damaging

00:10:53.120 --> 00:10:56.317
is that the thing that's uh really made

00:10:56.400 --> 00:11:00.317
I think Silicon Valley special over
the past several decades is permissionless

00:11:00.400 --> 00:11:03.837
innovation. Right?
It's that two guys in a garage

00:11:03.920 --> 00:11:07.437
>> can just pursue their idea. you know,
maybe they raise some capital from

00:11:07.520 --> 00:11:11.837
angels or VC firms. B basically people
who are willing to lose all of their

00:11:11.920 --> 00:11:15.677
money and these are people who,
you know, are young founders. They could

00:11:15.760 --> 00:11:18.637
also be, you know, it could be the the
the dropout, the future dropout in a

00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:23.037
dorm room and they're able just
to pursue their idea. And um and the only

00:11:23.120 --> 00:11:26.877
reason that I think has happened
in Silicon Valley whereas you look at in

00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.757
you know industries like um I don't know

00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.397
like pharma or um you know healthcare
or defense or banking or these highly

00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:37.837
regulated industries where you just
don't see a lot of startups is because

00:11:37.920 --> 00:11:40.397
they're all heavily regulated which
means you have to go to Washington to

00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:44.717
get permission to do things. And the
thing I've seen in Washington is just

00:11:44.800 --> 00:11:47.037
that, you know, the approvals get set up

00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.317
for reasons, but those reasons very

00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:54.557
quickly stop mattering. And it just
matters like how good your government

00:11:54.640 --> 00:11:57.997
affairs team is at navigating through
the bureaucracy and figuring out how to

00:11:58.080 --> 00:12:01.757
get those approvals. And it's not
something that your typical startup

00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.197
founders are going to be good at. Um,
it's something that big companies get

00:12:05.280 --> 00:12:07.517
good at because they've got
the resources and that's exactly what

00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:09.997
regulatory capture means. So the the

00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:12.397
whole basis of Silicon Valley success,

00:12:12.480 --> 00:12:15.757
the reason why it's really the the crown

00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:20.237
jewel of the American economy and the
envy of the rest of the world. We see

00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:23.597
all these attempts by all these other
countries to create their own Silicon

00:12:23.680 --> 00:12:27.277
Valley. The the reason that's the case
is because of permissionless innovation.

00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:29.997
And what is being contemplated and

00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:34.397
discussed and implemented with respect
to AI is an approval system for both

00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:38.477
software and hardware. Uh and this is
not theoretical. This has already been

00:12:38.560 --> 00:12:42.717
happening on the the hardware side.
One of the last things that the Biden

00:12:42.800 --> 00:12:47.357
administration did the last week
the Biden administration was um impose the

00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.437
so-called Biden diffusion rule which

00:12:49.520 --> 00:12:53.917
requires that every sale of a GPU on

00:12:54.000 --> 00:12:56.877
Earth be licensed by the government

00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.197
which is to say preapproved um unless it

00:12:59.280 --> 00:13:01.837
fits into some category of exception but

00:13:01.920 --> 00:13:04.237
basically the overall idea is that you

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:06.877
know uh compute is now going to be um a

00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.197
licensed and and pre-approved um

00:13:09.280 --> 00:13:12.237
category. uh we rescended that. Um and

00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:14.077
then on the the software side like I

00:13:14.160 --> 00:13:16.717
said I mean the goal very clearly is to

00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:19.597
start with these reporting requirements

00:13:19.680 --> 00:13:22.317
to the government to the states and then

00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:26.797
where that ramps up to is you have
to go to Washington to get permission uh

00:13:26.880 --> 00:13:29.117
before you release a new model and um

00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:30.957
you know it's this would drastically

00:13:31.040 --> 00:13:33.997
slow down innovation and make America

00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:38.557
less competitive. I mean, you know,
these approvals can take months, they

00:13:38.640 --> 00:13:42.477
can take years. Uh, when models are when
when a new chip is released every year

00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:46.237
and we have licenses that have been
sitting in the hopper for 2 years, I

00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.397
mean, the requests are obsolete by the
time they finally get approved. And um,

00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:54.397
that would be even more true with models
where, you know, the the cycle time is,

00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.917
you know, like three three or four
months for a new model. I mean, you

00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.757
know, and and and what exactly is a
bureaucracy in Washington going to know

00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.357
about uh this technology that, you know,
that they're that they're going to be in

00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:09.037
a good position to to approve it.
Any event, but this is what is being

00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.477
contemplated right now and I think
it would be a disaster for for Silicon

00:14:12.560 --> 00:14:14.877
Valley, but also and for innovation, but

00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:16.797
therefore for American competitiveness

00:14:16.880 --> 00:14:20.717
and I think we will lose the AI race uh

00:14:20.800 --> 00:14:24.637
to countries like China if you know if
this is if this is the set of rules that

00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:27.277
we have. >> Yeah.
One of the really diabolical

00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:29.757
things about their argument is if they

00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:34.717
really believed there was a monster then
why are they buying GPUs like at a rate

00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:37.997
faster than anybody? And then the other
thing that we know from being in the

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:41.117
industry is their reputation is the

00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:45.037
literally the worst security practices
in the entire industry with respect to

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.397
their own code. So if you were building
this monster, the last thing you'd want

00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.637
to do is like leave a bunch of holes
around for people to hack it. Um so they

00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:53.917
don't believe anything they're saying.

00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.637
It's like completely made up to try and

00:14:56.720 --> 00:14:58.957
maintain their lead by the same

00:14:59.040 --> 00:15:01.597
psychotic. I think there is um I think

00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:05.757
it's a heady drug to basically say that

00:15:05.840 --> 00:15:08.077
um that you know we're we're creating

00:15:08.160 --> 00:15:12.797
this you know new super intelligence
that is going to could destroy humanity

00:15:12.880 --> 00:15:16.877
but we're the only ones who are virt
virtuous enough >> to ensure [laughter]

00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:20.477
that this is done correctly
right and I think that you know

00:15:20.560 --> 00:15:24.237
>> it's a good recruiting tool
yeah join the virtuous team

00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:27.117
>> yes um I think that's right >> the

00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:31.757
>> but yeah but I think that is definitely
um you So I I I think of of all the

00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.277
companies that particular one
has been the most aggressive

00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:36.877
uh in terms of the regulatory capture

00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:39.517
and pushing these um for the these

00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:44.397
regulations. And just I mean let's just
bring it up a level just doesn't have to

00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:46.477
be about them. Um there's now something

00:15:46.560 --> 00:15:48.797
like 1,200 bills going through state uh

00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:52.797
legislators right now to regulate AI. uh

00:15:52.880 --> 00:15:56.157
25% of them are in um the the top four

00:15:56.240 --> 00:15:58.397
blue states which are California, New

00:15:58.480 --> 00:16:03.677
York, Colorado, and Illinois. Uh over
a hundred measures have already passed. Um

00:16:03.760 --> 00:16:07.917
I think three of them just got signed
in the last month in California alone.

00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:12.077
>> I'll tell you just let me tell you what
Colorado is actually Colorado, Illinois,

00:16:12.160 --> 00:16:16.717
and California have all done some
version of a thing called algorithmic

00:16:16.800 --> 00:16:20.957
discrimination.
um which I think is it's really

00:16:21.040 --> 00:16:22.957
troubling where where it's headed. Um

00:16:23.040 --> 00:16:25.277
what what this concept means is that if

00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:29.277
the model produces an output

00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:31.277
that has a disperate impact on a

00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:33.757
protected group then that is algorithmic

00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:36.317
discrimination and the list of protected

00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:39.117
groups is um is very long. It's more

00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:41.437
than just the the the usual ones. So,

00:16:41.520 --> 00:16:43.517
for example, in Colorado, they've

00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:47.117
defined um people who um may not have

00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:52.157
English language proficiency as a
protected group. So, I guess if the

00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:55.997
model says something bad about, you know,
illegal aliens and that would be,

00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:00.957
you know, that would basically violate
the law. I don't know exactly how model

00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:05.677
companies are even supposed to comply
with this rule. I mean, presumably,

00:17:05.760 --> 00:17:08.557
presumably discrimination is already
illegal. So if you're a business and you

00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:11.357
violate the civil rights laws and you
engage in discrimination, you're already

00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:12.957
liable for that. You know, there's no

00:17:13.040 --> 00:17:15.917
reason you know if if you happen to um

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:20.637
you know make that mistake and you use
any kind of tool in the process of doing

00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.837
it, we don't really need to go after the
tool developer because we can already go

00:17:23.920 --> 00:17:26.637
after the business that's made that

00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:29.037
decision. But the whole purpose of of

00:17:29.120 --> 00:17:31.997
these laws is to get at the tool.

00:17:32.080 --> 00:17:34.877
They're making not just the the business

00:17:34.960 --> 00:17:39.757
that is using AI liable, they're making
the tool developer liable. And I don't

00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:42.877
even know how the tool developer
is supposed to anticipate this because how

00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:44.797
do you know all the ways that your tool

00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.277
is going to be used? How do you know

00:17:47.360 --> 00:17:49.997
that um that this output, you know,

00:17:50.080 --> 00:17:51.997
especially if the output is 100% true

00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:54.317
and accurate and the model is doing its

00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.277
job? um you know then how are you

00:17:57.360 --> 00:18:01.597
supposed to know that that was that
output was used as part of a decision

00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.357
that had a disperate impact?
Nevertheless, you're liable. And the

00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.957
only way that I can see for model
developers to even attempt to comply

00:18:09.040 --> 00:18:12.157
with this is to build a DEI layer into

00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:17.357
their models that tries to anticipate
could this answer have a disparit

00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:18.877
impact? And if it does, we either can't

00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:20.957
give you the answer. We have to sanitize

00:18:21.040 --> 00:18:24.957
or distort the answer. Uh, and you know,

00:18:25.040 --> 00:18:28.637
you just take this to its logical
conclusion and we're back to, you know,

00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:33.197
woke AI, which by the way was a major
objective of the Biden administration.

00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:37.357
Um, that that Biden executive order
on AI that we rescended as part of the

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.877
Trump administration had something like
20 pages of DEI language in it. They

00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:42.877
were very much trying to promote

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.557
>> uh DEI values,
they called it, in models

00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:49.597
>> and and we saw what the result of that
was. you know, uh, it was, you know, we

00:18:49.680 --> 00:18:53.197
saw the whole black George Washington
thing where history was being rewritten

00:18:53.280 --> 00:18:55.837
in real time because somebody built, you

00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.717
know, a DEI layer into the model. Um,

00:18:58.800 --> 00:19:03.517
and um, and I, you know, and I I
almost feel like the term woke AI is

00:19:03.600 --> 00:19:06.637
insufficient >> to explain
what's going on because it

00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:09.757
somehow trivializes it. I mean, what
we're really talking about is Orwellian

00:19:09.840 --> 00:19:12.317
AI. You know, we're talking about AI

00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.797
that um that lies to you, that um that

00:19:16.880 --> 00:19:19.917
distorts an an answer that rewrites

00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:23.997
history in real time to serve a current
political agenda of the people who are

00:19:24.080 --> 00:19:26.557
in power. I mean, it's it's um it's very

00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.357
Orwellian and um and we were definitely

00:19:29.440 --> 00:19:31.837
on that path before President Trump's

00:19:31.920 --> 00:19:33.917
election. Uh it was part of the Biden

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:39.037
EO. We saw it happen, you know, in in
the release of that first Gemini model.

00:19:39.120 --> 00:19:40.877
uh that was not an accident that you

00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.197
know that th those distorted outputs

00:19:43.280 --> 00:19:47.117
came from somewhere. Um so it was you

00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:50.797
know to just to me this is the the

00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.637
biggest risk of AI actually is it's not

00:19:54.720 --> 00:19:58.317
it was not described by James Cameron it
was described by George Orwell you know

00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.797
it's in my view it's not the Terminator

00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.717
it's 1984 that um you know that as AI

00:20:04.800 --> 00:20:07.117
eats the internet and becomes the main

00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:09.597
way that we interact and get our

00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:13.357
information online that it'll be used by

00:20:13.440 --> 00:20:16.717
the people in power to um to control the

00:20:16.800 --> 00:20:18.717
information we receive. Um that it'll

00:20:18.800 --> 00:20:21.357
contain anid ideological bias that

00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:26.317
essentially it'll censor us. All
that trust and safety apparatus that was

00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.597
created for social media will be ported
over to this new world of AI. Mark, I

00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.157
know that you've spoken about this quite
a bit. I think you're absolutely right

00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:36.317
about that. And then on top of that,
you've got the surveillance um issues

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.917
where, you know, AI is going to know
everything about you. Uh it's going to

00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:42.237
be your kind of personal assistant. And

00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:45.677
so it's kind of the perfect tool for the

00:20:45.760 --> 00:20:48.557
government to um monitor and control

00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:53.277
you. And to me that is by far
the biggest risk of of AI. And that's the

00:20:53.360 --> 00:20:57.117
thing we should be working towards
preventing. And the problem is a lot of

00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.917
these regulations that are being whipped

00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:02.637
up by these um fear-mongering

00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.477
techniques, they're actually empowering

00:21:04.560 --> 00:21:07.677
the government to uh to engage in this

00:21:07.760 --> 00:21:10.397
type of control that I think we should

00:21:10.480 --> 00:21:14.957
all be very afraid of. Actually, >>
Sam Alman earlier this week said that in

00:21:15.040 --> 00:21:19.917
2028 or by 2028, he expects to have
automated researchers. I'm I'm I'm

00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.237
curious just for your sort of state
of of AI sort of model development or or

00:21:24.320 --> 00:21:28.317
just progress in general and what do you
think are the implications? Some people

00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.717
have been sort of, you know, saying that,
you know, AGI is two years away,

00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:36.957
sort of the AI 2027 papers, the old
Ashen Brener's situational awareness

00:21:37.040 --> 00:21:40.397
papers. I'm curious kind of what's your
reading of the of the state of play in

00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:43.677
terms of a AI development and what
are the implications from that?

00:21:43.760 --> 00:21:47.917
>> So, so my sense is that um people are
in Silicon Valley are kind of pulling back

00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:49.757
from the let's call it imminent AGI

00:21:49.840 --> 00:21:52.877
narrative. Um I saw Andre Carpathy gave

00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:58.237
an interview where all of a sudden he's
he's um rewritten this and he says AGI

00:21:58.320 --> 00:22:02.317
is at least a decade away. He's
basically saying that um that you know

00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:05.677
reinforcement learning has its limits.
I mean it's it's very useful. It's the

00:22:05.760 --> 00:22:09.117
main paradigm right now that they're
making a lot of progress with. But he

00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:12.397
says that actually the way that
humans learn is not really through

00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.837
reinforcement. We do something a little
different which I think is a good thing

00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.837
because it means that human and AI will
be synergistic, right? Right. I mean the

00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.757
the AI's um understanding if it's based
on RL will be a little different than

00:22:23.840 --> 00:22:27.277
the way that we intuit it [clears
throat] and and reason. Uh but

00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:31.117
in any event, I I sense more
of a pullback from this imminent AGI

00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.117
narrative. Um you know, the idea that
AGI is two years away. Of course, it's

00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.957
like kind of unclear what people mean
by AGI, but it's kind of, you know, it was

00:22:39.040 --> 00:22:43.037
used in this like scary way that um
it's kind of the super intelligence that

00:22:43.120 --> 00:22:45.757
would grow beyond our control. Um I feel

00:22:45.840 --> 00:22:50.237
like people are pulling back from that
and understanding that yes we're still

00:22:50.320 --> 00:22:52.477
making a lot of progress and the

00:22:52.560 --> 00:22:55.997
progress is amazing but at the same time

00:22:56.080 --> 00:22:59.677
you know what we mean
by intelligence is multifaceted

00:22:59.760 --> 00:23:02.877
and it's not like you know there's
progress being made along some

00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.957
dimensions but it's not along every

00:23:05.040 --> 00:23:06.477
dimension.

00:23:06.560 --> 00:23:10.477
Um, and so therefore I think again I

00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:13.517
would just I mean I've described
actually the situation we're in right

00:23:13.600 --> 00:23:17.757
now as a little bit of a Goldilock
scenario where um you know the extremes

00:23:17.840 --> 00:23:23.197
would be you know you kind of have the
the scary Terminator situation imminent

00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:26.557
super intelligence that'll grow beyond
our control on the other the other

00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:29.677
narrative you hear in the press a lot
is that we're in a big bubble. So in other

00:23:29.760 --> 00:23:33.437
words the whole thing is fake >>
and the media is basically pushing both

00:23:33.520 --> 00:23:37.197
narratives at the same time. >> Yeah.
Um, but any event, I think that

00:23:37.280 --> 00:23:41.197
the truth is is more in the middle.
It's kind of a Goldilock scenario where um

00:23:41.280 --> 00:23:43.677
we're seeing a lot of innovation. I

00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:47.357
think the um the progress is impressive.

00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.517
Uh it's I think we're going to see big

00:23:49.600 --> 00:23:54.557
productivity gains in the economy from
this. But uh but I like the observations

00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.517
that Bology made recently where he said
there's a couple of things that really

00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:00.237
struck me. One was um AI is

00:24:00.320 --> 00:24:03.117
polytheistic, not monotheistic. Meaning

00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.757
what we're seeing is many instead of

00:24:05.840 --> 00:24:08.477
just one all- knowing all powerful god.

00:24:08.560 --> 00:24:10.717
What we're seeing is a bunch of smaller

00:24:10.800 --> 00:24:14.077
deities more specialized models

00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:17.197
um you know uh you know it's it's not

00:24:17.280 --> 00:24:21.357
that sort of um we're not on that
kind of recursive self-improvement

00:24:21.440 --> 00:24:25.197
uh track just yet but you know we're
seeing many different kinds of models

00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:27.517
make progress in different areas. Um and

00:24:27.600 --> 00:24:32.637
then the other the other um one was just
his observation that AI was um was

00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:36.077
middle to middle whereas humans are end
to end and therefore the relationship is

00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.477
is pretty synergistic and um I think
that's right. I mean I think I think all

00:24:40.560 --> 00:24:44.397
th those observations are like resonate
with me in terms of where we're at right

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:47.677
now. >> Yeah. And that that that's very
consistent with what we're seeing as

00:24:47.760 --> 00:24:50.877
well where um you know ideas that we

00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:53.917
thought would for sure get subsumed by

00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.997
the big models are becoming amazingly

00:24:58.080 --> 00:25:00.477
differentiated businesses. Um just

00:25:00.560 --> 00:25:04.477
because the fat tail of the universe is

00:25:04.560 --> 00:25:08.157
very fat and you need really kind of

00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.477
specific understanding of certain
scenarios to build an effective model

00:25:12.560 --> 00:25:16.477
and that that's just how it's going. you
know, no model has just like figured out

00:25:16.560 --> 00:25:19.917
how to do everything. >> Yeah.
I mean, and the models work best

00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:23.117
when they have context, you know, and um

00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:26.957
the more I mean, we've all seen this,
the more general your prompt, the less

00:25:27.040 --> 00:25:29.197
likely it is that you're going to be

00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:31.997
able to um you know, get get a great

00:25:32.080 --> 00:25:35.117
response. And um I don't know, if you

00:25:35.200 --> 00:25:38.477
tell the AI uh you know, uh something

00:25:38.560 --> 00:25:44.237
very general like um what business can
I create to make a billion dollars? it

00:25:44.320 --> 00:25:47.517
it's not going to give you something
actionable. You know, you have to get

00:25:47.600 --> 00:25:51.517
very specific about what you're trying
to do and it has to have access to

00:25:51.600 --> 00:25:53.037
relevant data and then it can give you

00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:56.717
some specific answers to to um to a

00:25:56.800 --> 00:25:58.877
prompt. Um and I think this is, you

00:25:58.960 --> 00:26:03.997
know, partly Bali's point, which is,
you know, the the the AI does not come up

00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:06.717
with its own objective. You know,
it needs to be prompted. It needs to be

00:26:06.800 --> 00:26:08.637
told what to do. We've seen no evidence

00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:11.117
that that's at this stage that that's

00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:13.917
changing. we're still at step zero in

00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.677
terms of AI kind of, you know, somehow

00:26:17.760 --> 00:26:22.477
coming up with its own objective. And um
uh and as a result of that, you know,

00:26:22.560 --> 00:26:25.357
the model has to be prompted and then it
gives you an output and that output has

00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:29.197
to be validated. You have to somehow
make sure it's correct because models

00:26:29.280 --> 00:26:33.997
can still be wrong. Um and more likely
you have to iterate a few times because

00:26:34.080 --> 00:26:37.597
it doesn't give you exactly what you want.
So now you kind of reprompt and

00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:38.797
we've all had this experience, right?

00:26:38.880 --> 00:26:41.517
you this is why like the chat the chat

00:26:41.600 --> 00:26:46.237
um interface is so is so necessary is
because it takes you a few times to kind

00:26:46.320 --> 00:26:50.797
of iterate to get to the output that
actually has value for you. Um again you

00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:55.277
know humans are antenn and the the um
the AI is middle to middle. I just don't

00:26:55.360 --> 00:26:58.957
you know we haven't seen any evidence
that that fundamental dynamic is is

00:26:59.040 --> 00:27:03.117
changing. Um I mean I think you know
we're at the I mean I'd love to hear

00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.437
what you guys think about this. this.
I mean, we're obviously at the outset of

00:27:05.520 --> 00:27:10.477
of agents and um you know, and agents
you can give an objective to and then'll

00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:12.077
be able to take tasks on your behalf.

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.757
But I suspect that the agents will work
better as well when they have a much

00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:19.997
more narrow context. They're much less
likely to go off the rails, start going

00:27:20.080 --> 00:27:22.477
in weird directions. If you give it like

00:27:22.560 --> 00:27:25.357
a very broad, you know, a very broad

00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.757
task, it's just not likely to completely
figure it out before it needs human

00:27:29.840 --> 00:27:33.357
intervention. But if you give it
something very narrow to do, then it's

00:27:33.440 --> 00:27:36.637
much more likely to be successful. Um,

00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:37.997
so, you know, I would just guess like,

00:27:38.080 --> 00:27:42.557
okay, just you tell the AI, um, you

00:27:42.640 --> 00:27:46.717
know, sell my product. You know, it's
it's very unlikely that it's just going

00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:48.557
to figure out like what that means and

00:27:48.640 --> 00:27:51.197
how to do that. But if you're a sales

00:27:51.280 --> 00:27:56.717
rep and you're using the AI to help you,
there's probably very specific tasks

00:27:56.800 --> 00:28:00.717
that you can tell it to do and it would
be much more successful doing that. So,

00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:03.757
I I just tend to think I mean this also
kind of speaks to the whole job loss

00:28:03.840 --> 00:28:08.397
narrative. I just think that this is
going to be a very synergistic tool for

00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:10.317
a long time. I don't think it's going to

00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:13.757
wipe out um human human jobs. I don't

00:28:13.840 --> 00:28:16.957
think the need for human cognition is

00:28:17.040 --> 00:28:21.357
going away. Um it's something that, you
know, we'll we'll all use to kind of get

00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:25.837
this big productivity boost at least for
the foreseeable future. I mean, I don't

00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.237
know. I don't know if anyone can any
of us can predict what's going to happen

00:28:28.320 --> 00:28:31.917
beyond five or 10 years, but I mean
that's just what I'm seeing right now. I

00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:35.517
don't know. I'm curious what what
are you guys seeing this front?

00:28:35.600 --> 00:28:39.357
>> Yeah, generally consistent with that
things are improving. So like on agents

00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:43.277
um the the early agents, the longer
the running task, the more they would go

00:28:43.360 --> 00:28:45.517
like completely bananas and off off the

00:28:45.600 --> 00:28:48.557
rails. People are working on that. I do

00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.437
think like everything's working better

00:28:51.520 --> 00:28:54.477
in a context. I at least from what we've

00:28:54.560 --> 00:28:57.517
seen that will continue and even you

00:28:57.600 --> 00:28:59.757
know to your point on like super smart

00:28:59.840 --> 00:29:03.757
models there's like a dozen video models

00:29:03.840 --> 00:29:07.437
out there and there's not one that's the

00:29:07.520 --> 00:29:11.197
best at everything or even close
to the best at everything. There's like

00:29:11.280 --> 00:29:13.917
literally a dozen that are all the best

00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.917
at one thing. Um, and

00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.917
which is a little surprising at least
to me because you would think, you know,

00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.157
just the sheer size of the data would be

00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:28.557
an advantage, but even that um hasn't

00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:31.997
quite proven out. Uh, you know, it it is

00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:33.597
like depending on what you want. Do you

00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:36.637
want a meme? Do you want a movie? Do you

00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:40.397
want, you know, an ad? Like it's all

00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:45.197
very very different. And I think this
gets to your main point, which is, and

00:29:45.280 --> 00:29:47.677
Mark Zuckerberg said something
that I really liked. He's like, look,

00:29:47.760 --> 00:29:50.797
intelligence is not life. Um, and these

00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:53.197
things that we associate

00:29:53.280 --> 00:29:56.957
with life, um, like we have an

00:29:57.040 --> 00:29:59.837
objective. Um, we have free will, we're

00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:02.877
sentient. uh th those just aren't part

00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:06.877
of a mathematical model that is you know

00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:10.557
searching through a distribution and
figuring out an answer or even you know

00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:13.277
a model that you know through a

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:15.117
reinforcement learning technique can

00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.797
kind of improve its logic. So it's just

00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.157
like the the the comparison to humans I

00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:25.917
think is it just falls short in a lot of
ways is what we're seeing you know we're

00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:28.717
just different >> you know
then the models are very good

00:30:28.800 --> 00:30:32.557
at things they're better than
humans at things already many things

00:30:32.640 --> 00:30:35.277
>> the other [clears throat] thing I'd
bring up related to this which is sort

00:30:35.360 --> 00:30:39.437
of this which I think is a little
orthogonal but also quite related which

00:30:39.520 --> 00:30:43.597
is sort of is is the future of the world
going to be one or a small number of

00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:46.797
companies or for that matter governments
or super AIs that kind of own and

00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:50.317
control anything. Um, and sort of all
the value rolls up into a handful of of

00:30:50.400 --> 00:30:53.037
entities and and you know, and there
you get into this there's like the hyper

00:30:53.120 --> 00:30:55.437
capitalist version of it where a few
companies make all the money or there's

00:30:55.520 --> 00:30:58.397
like the hyper communist version of it
where you have total state control or

00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:01.197
whatever. >> Um, you know,
or is this a technology

00:31:01.280 --> 00:31:05.517
that's going to diffuse out um and be
like in everybody's hands um and be a

00:31:05.600 --> 00:31:08.477
tool of empowerment and creativity
um and individual effort, you know,

00:31:08.560 --> 00:31:12.637
expressiveness and um and um and as a
tool for basically everybody to use. I

00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:15.117
think one of the really striking things
about this period of time and you being

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:19.197
in this role is that this this is the
period in which the scenario number two

00:31:19.280 --> 00:31:23.037
is very I think very clearly playing
out um which is that this is the time in

00:31:23.120 --> 00:31:25.597
which AI is actually hyperdemocratizing.

00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:28.957
I think actually AI is actually
hyperdemocratized. It has spread to more

00:31:29.040 --> 00:31:32.317
individuals um uh both in the country
and around the world uh in the shortest

00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:35.037
period of time of any new technology I
think in history. you know, we're we're

00:31:35.120 --> 00:31:38.237
it's something like 600 million,
you know, users today on on rapidly on the

00:31:38.320 --> 00:31:41.437
way to a billion, rapidly on the way
to to 5 billion, you know, kind of across

00:31:41.520 --> 00:31:44.717
all the all the consumer products. And
then and then the best AIs in the world

00:31:44.800 --> 00:31:46.397
are are in the consumer products, right?

00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:50.077
Um and so if you use the if you use,
you know, current day Chad GPT or Grock or

00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:53.837
any of these things like, you know,
I I I can't spend more money, you know, uh

00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:55.677
and uh and and get access to better AI.

00:31:55.760 --> 00:31:57.037
It's it's it's in the consumer products.

00:31:57.120 --> 00:32:00.877
And so just in practice, what you have
like playing out in real time is this

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:04.157
technology is going to be in everybody's
hands. Um, and everybody is going to be

00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:06.637
able to use it to optim, you know,
optimize the things that they do. Have

00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:10.157
it be a thought partner. Have it be, you
know, somebody, you know, a a a um, you

00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.197
know, an assistant for for for building
companies, you know, starting companies

00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:17.117
or creating art or, you know, doing all
the things that people want to do. Um,

00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:20.237
you know, my wife was just using it
this morning to design a new uh an

00:32:20.320 --> 00:32:23.327
entrepreneurship curriculum for our
10-year-old, right? Um, you know,

00:32:23.410 --> 00:32:25.437
[laughter] right? Like,
you know, like literally

00:32:25.520 --> 00:32:28.717
it's like, oh, wow, that's like a really
great idea. Um, and it took her a couple

00:32:28.800 --> 00:32:31.677
hours and she has like a full curriculum
for him to be able to start his first

00:32:31.760 --> 00:32:33.997
video game company and here's all the
different skills that he needs to learn

00:32:34.080 --> 00:32:37.277
and here's all the resources and and like
that's just a level of capability.

00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:40.797
I mean to to to you know to have
done that without without these modern

00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.997
consumer AI tools you know you'd have
to go like hire a you know special ed

00:32:44.080 --> 00:32:47.277
education specialist or something you
know which is basically impossible um to

00:32:47.360 --> 00:32:49.757
do that kind of thing. So and and you
know everybody has these stories now in

00:32:49.840 --> 00:32:53.757
their lives among people they know. So
we're we have the I I think we have like

00:32:53.840 --> 00:32:56.477
a lot of proof that the the track that
this on is that this is going to be in

00:32:56.560 --> 00:32:59.117
everybody's hands and in fact that is
going to be a really good thing and and

00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:01.997
I think and I think David I think you
guys are really playing a key role in

00:33:02.080 --> 00:33:03.757
making making it happen.

00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:06.557
>> I think it's so important that this um

00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:10.957
technology remain decentralized because
the kind of the Orwellian concern is

00:33:11.040 --> 00:33:15.197
kind of the ultimate centralization >>
and fortunately so far what we're seeing

00:33:15.280 --> 00:33:17.277
in the market is that it's hyper

00:33:17.360 --> 00:33:19.437
competitive. There's five major model

00:33:19.520 --> 00:33:22.557
companies all making huge investments.

00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:27.117
Um, and the uh the the benchmark the the

00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:31.757
the model performance the evaluations
are relatively clustered and there's a

00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:35.837
lot of leaprogging going on. So,
you know, Grock releases new model, it

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:39.917
leaprogs chat GBT and but then CGT
releases something new, they they leap

00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.637
frog. So they're all like very
competitive and close to each other. And

00:33:42.720 --> 00:33:45.197
I think that's uh that's a good thing.

00:33:45.280 --> 00:33:47.117
And it's the opposite of what was

00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:49.437
predicted, you know, through this like

00:33:49.520 --> 00:33:52.317
imminent AGI story where the the the

00:33:52.400 --> 00:33:54.637
sort of the the storytelling there was

00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:58.877
that one model would get a lead and then

00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:02.637
it would direct its own intelligence
to making itself better and then so

00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.277
therefore its lead would get bigger
and bigger and you kind of get this

00:34:05.360 --> 00:34:09.277
recursive self-improvement and pretty
soon you're off to the the singularity.

00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:13.037
And um and and we haven't really seen
that, you know, we haven't seen one

00:34:13.120 --> 00:34:18.237
model completely pull away in terms
of capabilities. Um and I think that's a a

00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:21.117
good thing. thing. And so Eric to your
point about this narrative about the

00:34:21.200 --> 00:34:23.837
virtual AI researcher that that was one

00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:26.797
variant of this sort of um imminent AGI

00:34:26.880 --> 00:34:30.557
narrative is that the steps would be um

00:34:30.640 --> 00:34:32.877
you know models get smarter then models

00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:35.757
create virtual AI researcher and then

00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.157
you get a million virtual AI researchers
and then you know it's singularity and I

00:34:40.240 --> 00:34:42.557
think just the slight of hand in that is

00:34:42.640 --> 00:34:45.597
um what is a virtual AI researcher right

00:34:45.680 --> 00:34:48.717
it's like a very easy thing to say, but

00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:50.957
like what does that really mean? And you

00:34:51.040 --> 00:34:54.317
know, Toby's point about um you know, AI

00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.237
is still middle to middle. It doesn't
it's not end to end. So if an AI

00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:02.237
researcher is endtoend, there's like
things that has to you things the person

00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:04.637
has to figure out. They've got to set
their own objective. They've got to be

00:35:04.720 --> 00:35:08.317
able to pivot in ways that AI can't. Um

00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:12.237
you know, like is it really is that
really feasible to create a virtual AI

00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.717
researcher? I think there's like parts
of the job that you know AI could get

00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:18.397
really good at or even better than

00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.517
humans, but probably that tool has to be

00:35:21.600 --> 00:35:25.117
used by a human AI researcher. So I

00:35:25.200 --> 00:35:27.837
guess the the the the the argument I

00:35:27.920 --> 00:35:31.277
suspect could be um sort of teological

00:35:31.360 --> 00:35:34.157
in the sense that you might need AGI to

00:35:34.240 --> 00:35:38.397
create a virtual AI researcher
as opposed to the other way around. And if

00:35:38.480 --> 00:35:41.597
that's the case, you don't just,
you know, you're not going to get like

00:35:41.680 --> 00:35:45.997
singularity. So, I'm a little bit
skeptical of that claim. Um, you know,

00:35:46.080 --> 00:35:48.317
we'll see. S what Sam say he could do it

00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:50.957
in 2028. I mean, I guess we'll see. And

00:35:51.040 --> 00:35:55.357
>> I [laughter] I I think all those
claims tend to be like recruiting ideas as

00:35:55.440 --> 00:35:57.277
opposed to actual predictions.

00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:00.637
>> He's he's not the first to to mention
that idea. Other other model companies

00:36:00.720 --> 00:36:05.037
have been promoting it, but um yeah,
Leopold mentioned that too. Um you know,

00:36:05.120 --> 00:36:06.957
we'll we'll we'll see. But I suspect

00:36:07.040 --> 00:36:09.357
that that's what's wrong with that

00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:13.437
argument is that virtual AI researcher

00:36:13.520 --> 00:36:16.717
um requires AGI and so the idea that

00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:21.677
you're going to get AGI through
a virtual AI researcher is um is backwards

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.597
but we'll see you know we'll see.

00:36:23.680 --> 00:36:25.677
>> David, you've also you and the
administration I think have also been

00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:28.797
very supportive of open source AI which
I think also dovtales into this in terms

00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:30.717
of like the market being very competitive.

00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:32.637
>> Yes. >> Do you want
to spend a moment on what

00:36:32.720 --> 00:36:35.677
you guys have been able to do
on that and how you think about it?

00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:39.757
Yeah, I mean so so just to the you open
source is very important because I just

00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:44.557
think it's synonymous with um you know
freedom I mean software freedom. You

00:36:44.640 --> 00:36:48.557
basically could run your own models
on your own hardware and retain control

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:52.477
over your own information.
And by the way this is what enterprises

00:36:52.560 --> 00:36:55.037
typically do all the time is you know um

00:36:55.120 --> 00:37:00.077
about half the global data center
market is you know is on prem meaning

00:37:00.160 --> 00:37:02.797
enterprises and governments create their
own data centers. they don't go to the

00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.317
big clouds and by the way I've got
nothing against the hyperscalers but

00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:09.677
just you know people like to run their

00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.477
own um you know own data centers and you
know maintain control over their own

00:37:14.560 --> 00:37:18.237
data and that kind of thing and I think
that will be true for consumers to some

00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:22.237
degree as well um so I do think it's
an important area that we should you know

00:37:22.320 --> 00:37:24.717
want to encourage and promote the irony

00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:28.637
right now in the market is that um is

00:37:28.720 --> 00:37:31.677
that uh the best open source models are

00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:36.957
Chinese. Uh, and it's it's sort of a
quirk, right? It's it's the opposite of

00:37:37.040 --> 00:37:40.557
what you'd expect. You'd expect like
the American system would promote open and

00:37:40.640 --> 00:37:41.997
somehow the Chinese system would promote

00:37:42.080 --> 00:37:45.757
closed. That has kind of um, you know,

00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:47.917
ended up being a little backwards. Um, I

00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:49.917
think there's like good reasons for it.

00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:53.277
Uh, it could just be it could just be

00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:57.677
kind of a historical accident. the fact
that the Deep Seek founder was like very

00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:01.197
committed to open source and kind
of just kind of that like got things

00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:05.197
started that way or it could be part
of a deliberate strategy. Uh if you're

00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.237
China and you're trying to catch up,
open source is a really good way to do

00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:12.077
that because you get all the non-aligned
developers to want to help your project

00:38:12.160 --> 00:38:15.837
which they can't do if you know with a
closed project. So it's a great strategy

00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:18.957
for catching up. And then also if you

00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:21.197
think that your business model you know

00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.437
as a company or as a country is let's

00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:26.877
say scale manufacturing of hardware then

00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:31.517
you'd want the the software part
to be free or cheap because it's your

00:38:31.600 --> 00:38:35.997
compliment right so you try
to commoditize your compliment and I don't

00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:39.357
know whether it's by accident or part
of design that that seems to be what the

00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.517
Chinese strategy has been I think that

00:38:41.600 --> 00:38:46.477
the the right answer for the US in this
is to you know to encourage encourage

00:38:46.560 --> 00:38:50.717
our own open source. I mean, we I think
it'd be a great thing if we saw more

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:52.877
open source initiatives get get going. I

00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:55.117
guess there's one promising one called

00:38:55.200 --> 00:38:58.957
um Reflection, which um was founded by

00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:02.477
former um you know, engineers from uh

00:39:02.560 --> 00:39:06.797
from Google Deep Mind. Uh so I hope we
see more open source innovation in in

00:39:06.880 --> 00:39:10.957
the west. But um but look, I think it's
it's very important. is critical and

00:39:11.040 --> 00:39:14.797
like I said I in my view it's synonymous
with with freedom and it's definitely

00:39:14.880 --> 00:39:19.037
not something we want to suppress.
Now just back to the the closed ecosystem

00:39:19.120 --> 00:39:23.037
for a second. It's true we have five
major competitors there and they're all

00:39:23.120 --> 00:39:28.077
spending a lot of money. I do worry
a little bit that at some point some point

00:39:28.160 --> 00:39:32.317
in time that the model consol not the
model the um the market consolidates and

00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.157
we end up with you know like a monopoly
or duopoly or something like that as

00:39:36.240 --> 00:39:38.237
we've seen in other technology markets.

00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:41.037
We saw this with search and you know and

00:39:41.120 --> 00:39:45.997
so on down the line. And I just think
that it would be good if this market

00:39:46.080 --> 00:39:47.837
stayed more competitive than just one or

00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.637
two winners. Um and um I I don't I don't

00:39:52.720 --> 00:39:55.517
really know what to do about that. I'm
just making that observation. And I I do

00:39:55.600 --> 00:39:57.597
think that having open source as an

00:39:57.680 --> 00:40:00.557
option always then ensures that even if

00:40:00.640 --> 00:40:05.837
the market does consolidate that you
do have an alternative and it's an

00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:07.197
alternative that's more fully within

00:40:07.280 --> 00:40:09.517
your control as opposed to a large

00:40:09.600 --> 00:40:13.277
corporation or um you know or or the

00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.477
deep state you know working with that

00:40:16.560 --> 00:40:20.317
corporation as we saw in the Twitter
files that you know the deep state was

00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:22.957
working with all these um you know

00:40:23.040 --> 00:40:28.237
social media companies um you know
in in implementing much more widespread

00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:32.237
censorship than I think we
any of us thought possible. So

00:40:32.320 --> 00:40:35.197
uh we've seen evidence in the past
and again in the social networking space

00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:37.597
about um about how the government could

00:40:37.680 --> 00:40:40.477
get involved in nefarious ways and it

00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:42.957
would be good to have alternatives so

00:40:43.040 --> 00:40:46.877
that so you know to to prevent that or

00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.877
to to make it less likely that
that scenario comes about with AI.

00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:54.077
>> Yeah. Well, as you know, we we
and others uh um are very aggressively

00:40:54.160 --> 00:40:57.917
investing um in not new model companies
of many kinds, including new foundation

00:40:58.000 --> 00:41:01.037
model companies and then also, you know,
as you're probably there are a whole

00:41:01.120 --> 00:41:04.797
bunch of new open source efforts um you
know, that are not yet public that, you

00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.157
know, hopefully will bear fruit over the
next couple years. So, I think at least

00:41:08.240 --> 00:41:11.437
at least in the in the medium term,
I think we're looking at an explosion of

00:41:11.520 --> 00:41:13.757
model development as opposed
to consolidation and then, you know, we'll

00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:15.117
we'll see what happens from there.

00:41:15.200 --> 00:41:18.397
>> Yeah, that's really good to hear. I
mean I think you know if we assess kind of

00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:21.277
the the state of the AI race um visav v

00:41:21.360 --> 00:41:26.397
China uh this is the only area where we
appear to be behind is in this area of

00:41:26.480 --> 00:41:29.517
open source models. Um yeah >> I
I think you know if you don't care

00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:32.077
whether it's open or closed
I think we have the lead.

00:41:32.160 --> 00:41:36.637
>> Uh I think our top models uh model
companies are ahead of the top Chinese

00:41:36.720 --> 00:41:40.717
companies although they're quite good
but uh but just this narrow area of open

00:41:40.800 --> 00:41:43.837
source seems to be where they have
an advantage. So, it's great to hear that

00:41:43.920 --> 00:41:49.037
you guys are seeing, you know, a lot
more um efforts um coming to market.

00:41:49.120 --> 00:41:50.717
>> Yeah. Yeah, there's more coming. Yep.

00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:52.797
Good. >> Yeah. Yeah.
Definitely more coming.

00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:57.197
>> The um Peter Teal quipped, you know,
many years ago that he thought, you

00:41:57.280 --> 00:42:01.357
know, crypto would be libertarian
or decentralizing and that uh AI would be

00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:04.317
communist or or centralizing.
And I think one thing we've perhaps we've

00:42:04.400 --> 00:42:07.677
learned that uh technology isn't
deterministic and that there are a set

00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:11.357
of choices that determine whether these
technologies are decentralizing or or

00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:15.517
centralizing. And um maybe we could
segue use that as a segue to go deeper

00:42:15.600 --> 00:42:19.277
into the the state of the race with China.
Uh maybe David you could lay out

00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:23.037
the sort of the what's most important
to to get right. You've already indicated

00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:27.197
you know open source is one example. Um
you know you you alluded earlier to sort

00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:31.517
of our strategy as relates to chips.
Um you know some people say that yes it's

00:42:31.600 --> 00:42:35.037
it's a good idea to do what we're doing
because it'll you know limit domestic

00:42:35.120 --> 00:42:38.957
semiconductor production. Other people
say, "Oh, well, you know, some of these

00:42:39.040 --> 00:42:42.557
companies say chips are their biggest,
you know, limiting factors and so are we

00:42:42.640 --> 00:42:46.397
enabling them in some way." Why don't
you talk about the sort of state of play

00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:47.917
and then our strategy?

00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.557
>> Yeah. So, you know, when we talk about

00:42:50.640 --> 00:42:55.117
winning the AI race, um, sometimes
we say we're in a race against China,

00:42:55.200 --> 00:42:57.597
sometimes we just leave it a little bit
more vague because I I don't think we

00:42:57.680 --> 00:43:02.477
should become overly obsessed with our uh,
competitors or adversaries. I think

00:43:02.560 --> 00:43:06.157
whether we win or not will mostly have
to do with the decisions we make about

00:43:06.240 --> 00:43:08.877
our own technology ecosystem, not about,

00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.077
you know, what we do v visa v them. And

00:43:12.160 --> 00:43:15.277
so the president in in his July 23rd

00:43:15.360 --> 00:43:17.277
speech on AI policy, I think mentioned a

00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:20.077
few of the key pillars of of, you know,

00:43:20.160 --> 00:43:24.397
of of how we win this this AI race.
Um, and by the way, I'm not saying it ever

00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.317
ends. This it might be an infinite game,

00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:28.477
but um but we want to be in the lead at

00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:31.757
least. And um and I I I I do think that

00:43:31.840 --> 00:43:36.077
um there could be a period of time where
like you know take the internet where I

00:43:36.160 --> 00:43:39.917
mean the internet's still going on. It's
happened but we understand that kind of

00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:43.757
who the winners are is kind of baked now.
Um so there could be a period of

00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:47.197
time in which you know it's kind of baked
who the the winners in AI are. But

00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:51.757
um in any event um you know in terms
of how we win this race um you know I

00:43:51.840 --> 00:43:52.797
mentioned a few of the key pillars.

00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:56.317
Number one is innovation. You know it's
very important to support the private

00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:59.117
sector because they're the ones who
do the innovation. We're not going to

00:43:59.200 --> 00:44:03.277
regulate our way to beating our our
adversary. We just have to out innovate

00:44:03.360 --> 00:44:06.077
them. Um I mentioned I I think right now

00:44:06.160 --> 00:44:09.597
the biggest obstacle is the the the um

00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:12.157
frenzy of overregulation happening at

00:44:12.240 --> 00:44:17.197
the states. I desperately think we need
um a federal a single federal standard.

00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:20.157
Uh a patchwork of 50 different
regulatory regimes is going to be

00:44:20.240 --> 00:44:24.237
incredibly burdensome to comply with.
I think even the people who support a lot

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:27.197
of this regulation are now acknowledging
that we're going to need a federal

00:44:27.280 --> 00:44:32.077
standard. Uh the problem is that when
they talk about it, what they really

00:44:32.160 --> 00:44:35.757
want is to federalize the most
ownorous version of all the state laws

00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:39.437
>> and that can't be allowed either.
So, you know, there's going to be a battle

00:44:39.520 --> 00:44:42.317
to come. I think as the states um become

00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:47.197
more and more unwieldy, you know, as it
becomes more of a trap for startups that

00:44:47.280 --> 00:44:50.477
they now have to report into 50
different states at 50 different times

00:44:50.560 --> 00:44:53.517
to 50 different agencies about 50
different things, people are going to

00:44:53.600 --> 00:44:56.717
realize this is crazy and they're going
to try to federalize it. And then the

00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:00.237
question, I think, is whether we get
preemption heavy or preeemption light.

00:45:00.320 --> 00:45:04.637
Um you know, do we do we get a I think
everyone's gonna ultimately be in favor

00:45:04.720 --> 00:45:08.637
of a of a single federal standard.
Um because I think one of America's

00:45:08.720 --> 00:45:12.957
greatest advantages is that we have
a large national market, right? Not 50

00:45:13.040 --> 00:45:16.877
separate state markets like kind of,
you know, Europe before the EU wasn't

00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:19.917
competitive at all in the internet
because it's 30 different regulatory

00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.597
regimes. And so, you know, if you're
a European startup and even if you won

00:45:23.680 --> 00:45:28.077
your country, it didn't get you very far
because you still had to like, you know,

00:45:28.160 --> 00:45:31.117
figure out how to compete in 30 other
countries before you could even win

00:45:31.200 --> 00:45:34.477
Europe. And then meanwhile your American
competitors won the entire American

00:45:34.560 --> 00:45:38.637
market and is ready to scale up globally.
So the fact that we have a

00:45:38.720 --> 00:45:42.077
single national market is just
fundamental to our competitiveness and

00:45:42.160 --> 00:45:43.837
it's why you know winners in America

00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:45.757
then go on to kind of win the whole

00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:50.877
world. So we have to preserve that and I
think we will eventually get some some

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:53.997
federal preeemption. I think
the question will just again be whether we

00:45:54.080 --> 00:45:57.197
preempt heavy or preempt light. Um,

00:45:57.280 --> 00:46:01.037
second big area is infrastructure,
you know, and energy. You know, we want to

00:46:01.120 --> 00:46:06.237
help this this um amazing infrastructure
boom that's happening. And the biggest,

00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:10.317
I think, limiting factor there is just
going to be around energy. Uh, I think

00:46:10.400 --> 00:46:12.797
President Trump's been incredibly
far-sighted in this. I mean, he was

00:46:12.880 --> 00:46:16.957
talking about drill baby drill many
years ago. Um, he understood that energy

00:46:17.040 --> 00:46:20.637
is the basis for everything. It's
definitely the basis for this AI boom.

00:46:20.720 --> 00:46:24.637
And we want to basically get all
of these unnecessary regulations, the

00:46:24.720 --> 00:46:26.637
permitting restrictions, a lot of the

00:46:26.720 --> 00:46:30.397
nimism out of the way so that um AI

00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.917
companies can build data centers and get
power for them. And we can talk about

00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:35.197
that more if you want, but I think that

00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:39.357
that's a second really huge um uh part

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:42.797
of the of what it's going to take to win
the AI race. And then the third area is

00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:45.437
is around exports. And maybe this has

00:46:45.520 --> 00:46:48.717
been the most controversial one. Um, and

00:46:48.800 --> 00:46:52.477
it really speaks to the cultural
divide between Silicon Valley and and

00:46:52.560 --> 00:46:55.997
Washington. So, I think
all of us in Silicon Valley

00:46:56.080 --> 00:46:59.917
understand that the way that you win
a technology race is by building the

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:04.477
biggest ecosystem, right? You get
the most developers building on your your

00:47:04.560 --> 00:47:08.237
platform, you get the most apps in your
app store, everyone just uses you. I

00:47:08.320 --> 00:47:12.477
mean, you know, those are the companies
that typically win are the ones that get

00:47:12.560 --> 00:47:16.477
all the users, all the developers, and so
on. And so we in Silicon Valley have

00:47:16.560 --> 00:47:19.917
a partnership mentality. You know,
we want to just publish the APIs and get

00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.437
everyone using them. Uh Washington has
a different mentality, right? It's much

00:47:23.520 --> 00:47:27.677
more of a command and control. We want
you to get approved. Um you know, we

00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:29.117
kind of want to hoard this technology.

00:47:29.200 --> 00:47:32.157
Only America should have it. Um and and

00:47:32.240 --> 00:47:36.397
this this was really fundamental,
I think, to the Biden diffusion rule where

00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:40.077
the the point of that rule is to stop
diffusion, right? Diffusion is a is a is

00:47:40.160 --> 00:47:44.797
a bad word. Um but in Silicon Valley we
understand that diffusion is how you win.

00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.357
>> Um [snorts] I know I
mean I don't think we ever

00:47:47.440 --> 00:47:51.277
called it diffusion before. That was a new
word for me. We just called it usage.

00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:53.117
>> Yeah. >> Uh but we
understand that like getting

00:47:53.200 --> 00:47:55.517
the most users is how you win. Um so

00:47:55.600 --> 00:47:57.437
there's like a fundamental culture clash

00:47:57.520 --> 00:48:00.557
going on right now. And um you know the

00:48:00.640 --> 00:48:04.957
way I kind of parse it is that what we
decide to sell to China is always going

00:48:05.040 --> 00:48:08.637
to be comp uh complicated because you
know they're our competitor and our

00:48:08.720 --> 00:48:13.117
adversary and there's the whole
potential dual use and so the the the

00:48:13.200 --> 00:48:17.117
question of what you sell to China is is
nuanced. Um but what we sell to the rest

00:48:17.200 --> 00:48:20.237
of the world that should be an easy
question which is we should want to do

00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:23.517
business with the rest of the world.
We should want to have the largest

00:48:23.600 --> 00:48:28.477
ecosystem possible. uh and every country
we exclude from our technology alliance

00:48:28.560 --> 00:48:30.957
were basically driving into the arms
of China and it makes their ecosystem

00:48:31.040 --> 00:48:33.837
bigger and what we saw under the the the

00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.957
the Biden years is that they were

00:48:37.040 --> 00:48:39.917
constantly pushing other countries uh

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:42.237
into the arms of China starting with the

00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:45.517
Gulf states in um October of 2023.

00:48:45.600 --> 00:48:48.717
Basically the the Gulf States and I'm
talking about countries like Saudi

00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:53.837
Arabia, UAE, long-standing US allies,
they weren't allowed to buy chips from

00:48:53.920 --> 00:48:57.437
the US. In other words, they weren't
allowed to set up data centers and

00:48:57.520 --> 00:49:00.557
participate in in AI. And um you know,

00:49:00.640 --> 00:49:04.637
here we are telling all these countries
that, you know, AI is fundamental to the

00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:08.157
future. It's going to be the basis of
the economy, and yet we're excluding you

00:49:08.240 --> 00:49:11.277
from participating in the
American tech stack. Well,

00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:14.477
>> you know, it's obvious what they're
going to do. You know, the only play

00:49:14.560 --> 00:49:17.917
we're giving them is to go to China.
And so, you know, all of these rules

00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:19.757
basically just create pent-up demand for

00:49:19.840 --> 00:49:22.957
for um for Chinese chips and models. and

00:49:23.040 --> 00:49:25.517
it creates a Huawei belt and road. And

00:49:25.600 --> 00:49:28.237
we are hearing that um that Huawei is

00:49:28.320 --> 00:49:32.477
starting to uh proliferate or diffuse um

00:49:32.560 --> 00:49:36.797
in the Middle East and in Southeast Asia.
And I just think it's a really

00:49:36.880 --> 00:49:39.277
counterproductive strategy.
We're completely shooting ourselves in the

00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:43.277
foot. And like the the greatest irony is

00:49:43.360 --> 00:49:46.557
that the people who've been pushing this
strategy of driving all these countries

00:49:46.640 --> 00:49:48.877
into China's arms have called themselves

00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:53.837
China hawks. you know, as if what
they're doing is uh is hurting China.

00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:57.357
No, it's like it's it's helping China.
I mean, it's basically just handing them

00:49:57.440 --> 00:50:00.397
markets. And our products are better. Uh

00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:04.797
but if you don't give these countries
a choice to buy the American tech stack,

00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:06.797
obviously they're going to go with the

00:50:06.880 --> 00:50:09.437
Chinese tech stack. And um you know,

00:50:09.520 --> 00:50:13.517
China China's out there promoting um you

00:50:13.600 --> 00:50:18.317
know, uh Deepseek models and Huawei
chips and they're not like ringing their

00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:20.157
hands about

00:50:20.240 --> 00:50:23.277
you know whether um you know exporting

00:50:23.360 --> 00:50:27.277
chips for a data center in UAE is going
to like create the Terminator and you

00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:31.357
know all these like ridiculous
narratives that we've invented to you

00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:36.637
know reasons we've invented not to sell
American technology to our friends. So,

00:50:36.720 --> 00:50:40.077
um, you know, that that has ended up
being, I think, surprisingly maybe the

00:50:40.160 --> 00:50:45.197
most controversial part of what we've
advocated for. Um, but, uh, but there

00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:48.157
you have it. So, in any event, I'll
stop there. Those are kind of some of the

00:50:48.240 --> 00:50:51.197
major pillars of what
we've been advocating.

00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:54.477
>> Should we go deeper on sort of the
infrastructure energy point in terms of

00:50:54.560 --> 00:50:57.517
what it's really going to take to to
to get enough capacity or what's what's

00:50:57.600 --> 00:51:01.597
most important in that second bullet you
were talking about? Yeah. I mean, well,

00:51:01.680 --> 00:51:04.717
so I mean, there there are definitely
people who are much more knowledgeable

00:51:04.800 --> 00:51:07.997
about energy than I am and are experts
in the space. But here's what I've been

00:51:08.080 --> 00:51:11.197
able to kind of divine is um so first of

00:51:11.280 --> 00:51:15.437
all, the administration, President Trump
has signed multiple executive orders to

00:51:15.520 --> 00:51:17.197
uh to allow for nuclear to make

00:51:17.280 --> 00:51:19.277
permitting easier. We've even freed up

00:51:19.360 --> 00:51:22.957
federal land uh for for data centers to

00:51:23.040 --> 00:51:26.477
hopefully trying to help get around some
of these state and local restrictions.

00:51:26.560 --> 00:51:29.517
And obviously the president has made it

00:51:29.600 --> 00:51:32.957
a lot easier to um to stand up new um uh

00:51:33.040 --> 00:51:35.437
energy projects, uh power generation,

00:51:35.520 --> 00:51:38.157
all that kind of stuff. Um I still think

00:51:38.240 --> 00:51:41.277
though that we have um a growing nimi

00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:46.077
problem at the state and local level
uh in in the US that that is becoming a

00:51:46.160 --> 00:51:51.197
little bit worrisome.
uh and um and uh and if if we don't

00:51:51.280 --> 00:51:55.277
figure out a way to to address it, then
it could really slow down uh the build

00:51:55.360 --> 00:51:57.837
out of this infrastructure. Um in terms

00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:02.797
of of power, so my understanding is that
nuclear is going to take 5 or 10 years.

00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:05.597
It's just it's just not something that
we're going to be able to do in the next

00:52:05.680 --> 00:52:09.357
two or three years. So in the short term,
it really means that like gas is

00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:13.997
the way that these data centers are
going to get um powered. And the the

00:52:14.080 --> 00:52:17.437
issue with gas is the shortage there is
not I mean America has plenty of natural

00:52:17.520 --> 00:52:20.477
gas and um there's uh it exists in

00:52:20.560 --> 00:52:24.877
plenty of enough red states where you
could just build out data centers like

00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.717
close to the source which be smart.
Uh the issue is there's like a shortage of

00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:32.797
these um gas turbines. You know there's
only like two or three companies that

00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.437
make these things and like there's like

00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:40.237
a backlog of two or three years.
So I think that's probably the the the

00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:43.997
immediate problem there
that needs to get solved. Um

00:52:44.080 --> 00:52:47.437
uh however I do think that in the next
2 or 3 years we could get a lot more out

00:52:47.520 --> 00:52:50.317
of the grid. So, I've had um you know,

00:52:50.400 --> 00:52:53.837
energy executives tell me that uh that

00:52:53.920 --> 00:52:57.997
if we could just shed um 40 hours a year

00:52:58.080 --> 00:53:02.477
of peak load from the grid to like
backup generators, to diesel, things

00:53:02.560 --> 00:53:04.397
like that, you could free up an

00:53:04.480 --> 00:53:07.357
additional 80 gawatts of power, which is

00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.157
a lot because I guess
the way that it works is um

00:53:12.240 --> 00:53:14.157
is, you know, the the grid is only used

00:53:14.240 --> 00:53:19.277
about 50% uh 50% of the capacity is used
throughout the here uh because they have

00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:23.437
to build enough capacity for the the peak
the peak days like the hottest day

00:53:23.520 --> 00:53:24.717
in summer, the coldest day in winter.

00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:29.997
Those are your peak days. Uh and they
don't want to um commit to a bunch of

00:53:30.080 --> 00:53:32.957
the capacity being used and then you
know you find out that you have a really

00:53:33.040 --> 00:53:34.877
cold day in winter and people can't get

00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:40.237
enough heat for their their homes.
And so um so they can't like overcommit to

00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:44.077
you know to say contracts or data
centers, things like that. Um, but if

00:53:44.160 --> 00:53:46.957
you could again just like um if you

00:53:47.040 --> 00:53:51.837
could shed that like 40 hours
a year of peak load to backup

00:53:51.920 --> 00:53:55.757
uh then you would be able to free up 80
80 gigawatts which is a lot. Um and that

00:53:55.840 --> 00:53:59.277
would definitely get us through the next
you know two or three years until the

00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:02.157
gas turbine bottleneck's been alleviated.
Um and then eventually you

00:54:02.240 --> 00:54:05.837
get to to nuclear. Uh so that would be

00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:09.277
very good. I think um the the issue
there is just there's a whole bunch of

00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:11.997
insane regulations preventing

00:54:12.080 --> 00:54:14.077
uh you know load shedding. So like for

00:54:14.160 --> 00:54:19.117
example, you can't use diesel.
Um and uh this you know uh Chris Wright

00:54:19.200 --> 00:54:21.997
who's the secretary of energy is is very
good on all this stuff and I think he's

00:54:22.080 --> 00:54:26.157
working on unraveling all of this so
we could actually uh actually do this.

00:54:26.240 --> 00:54:29.437
>> It's funny David as you talk about
this stuff. It's I I can't help but it's a

00:54:29.520 --> 00:54:31.677
little bit like it's a little bit like
the principle is just do the opposite of

00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:36.157
the EU. [laughter] Yeah. >> Yeah.

00:54:36.240 --> 00:54:39.517
>> Like basically I think everything
we've talked about so far is basically the

00:54:39.600 --> 00:54:42.477
opposite of the European approach.

00:54:42.560 --> 00:54:46.157
>> Yeah. Well, I mean the Europeans I mean
they have a really different mindset for

00:54:46.240 --> 00:54:47.597
all this stuff. when when they talk

00:54:47.680 --> 00:54:51.277
about AI leadership, um what they mean

00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.837
is that they're taking the lead
in defining the regulations and they're

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.877
all, you know, it's like that's what
they're proud of is that like they think

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:02.157
that's what their comparative advantage
is is that, you know, they get together

00:55:02.240 --> 00:55:04.957
in Brussels and figure out
what all the rules should be

00:55:05.040 --> 00:55:08.077
>> and that's what
they call leadership. Um

00:55:08.160 --> 00:55:11.597
>> the the EU the EU just announced a uh
I shouldn't beat on them too much, but

00:55:11.680 --> 00:55:14.797
they just announced a big new growth fund,
a big new public private sector uh

00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:18.957
tech growth fund to grow uh EU companies
to scale. And I I just I would literally

00:55:19.040 --> 00:55:21.597
I was just like, well, they it's
actually quite it's almost like a game

00:55:21.680 --> 00:55:25.837
show or something. They do everything
they can to strangle them in their crib

00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:27.517
>> and then if they
if they make it if they

00:55:27.600 --> 00:55:30.797
make it through like a decade of abuse
of small companies, then they're going

00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:34.477
to give the money to grow.
>> Um [laughter] >> Well,

00:55:34.560 --> 00:55:38.157
well, it's what Yeah. Ronald Reagan had
a line about this which is if it moves

00:55:38.240 --> 00:55:40.477
tax it. If it keeps moving regulate it.

00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:42.557
If it stops moving subsidize it.

00:55:42.640 --> 00:55:44.317
>> Yeah. >> Uh the Europeans
are definitely at the

00:55:44.400 --> 00:55:47.997
subsidiz it stage. [laughter] >> Yeah.
And I Yeah. I shouldn't be on them

00:55:48.080 --> 00:55:51.517
too much but I just like I've always
been proud to be an American but

00:55:51.600 --> 00:55:54.717
particularly now u because like we we
just the fact that we've we've we've

00:55:54.800 --> 00:55:57.517
been we we are we it really [snorts]
feels like we're reentering on core

00:55:57.600 --> 00:55:59.837
American values in a lot of the things
that we're talking about which is just

00:55:59.920 --> 00:56:03.837
really great. >> Yeah.
I mean again it's you know our our

00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:07.997
view is that the first of all we have
to win the I race. We want America to lead

00:56:08.080 --> 00:56:11.837
in this critical area. It's like
fundamental for our economy and our

00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.157
national security. How do you do that?

00:56:14.240 --> 00:56:16.557
Well, our companies have to be
successful because they're the ones who

00:56:16.640 --> 00:56:19.917
do the innovation. Again, you're not
going to regulate your way to winning

00:56:20.000 --> 00:56:23.277
the AI race. I'm not saying we don't
need any regulations, but the point is

00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:26.077
just that's not how that's not what's
going to determine whether we're the

00:56:26.160 --> 00:56:30.877
winners or not. David, you recently
tweeted that climate dumerism perhaps is

00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:34.637
giving way to AI dumerism based on,
you know, Bill Bill Gates recent comments.

00:56:34.720 --> 00:56:38.157
Um, what do you mean by this? Do do you
mean it's going to be a major flank, you

00:56:38.240 --> 00:56:41.197
know, of of of the, you know, US left or

00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:42.957
what do what do you mean by this

00:56:43.040 --> 00:56:46.077
comment? Well, I I think the left needs

00:56:46.160 --> 00:56:48.877
a central organizing catastrophe to

00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:53.677
justify their uh takeover of the economy

00:56:53.760 --> 00:56:57.277
and to to regulate everything
and especially to control the information

00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:01.917
space. Uh and I think that you're seeing
that kind of the allure of the whole

00:57:02.000 --> 00:57:06.317
climate change doomer narrative has kind
of faded. Maybe it's the fact that they

00:57:06.400 --> 00:57:08.877
predicted 10 years ago that the whole
world would be underwater in 10 years

00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:12.717
and that hasn't happened. So it's like
at a certain point you get discredited

00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:16.397
by your own catastrophic predictions.
I suspect that's where we'll be with AI

00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.837
dumerism in a few years. But in the
meantime, it's a really good narrative

00:57:19.920 --> 00:57:23.117
to kind of take the place of the climate
dumerism. There's actually a lot of

00:57:23.200 --> 00:57:25.757
similarities, I would say. Um, you know,

00:57:25.840 --> 00:57:27.757
you've kind of got um there's a lot of

00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:31.597
kind of um pre-existing Hollywood um

00:57:31.680 --> 00:57:35.277
storytelling and pop culture that supports
this idea. You know, you've got

00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:37.757
the Terminator movies and the Matrix and

00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:40.797
all this kind of stuff. Uh so people

00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:42.637
have been taught to be afraid of this.

00:57:42.720 --> 00:57:46.317
Um and then you know you you um there's

00:57:46.400 --> 00:57:51.197
enough kind of pseudocience behind it,
you know, kind of like um you know with

00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:55.917
uh like you've got all these contrived
studies that like the one where they

00:57:56.000 --> 00:58:00.157
claimed that the AI researcher got
blackmailed by his own AI model or

00:58:00.240 --> 00:58:02.477
whatever. Look, it's very easy to steer

00:58:02.560 --> 00:58:07.597
the model towards um the the answer
that you want and uh and a lot of these

00:58:07.680 --> 00:58:11.517
studies have been very contrived,
but there's this patina of pseudocience to

00:58:11.600 --> 00:58:15.357
it. It's certainly technical enough
that the average person doesn't feel

00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:19.037
comfortable saying that this doesn't
make any sense. I mean, it's more like

00:58:19.120 --> 00:58:21.117
you're not an expert. What do you know?

00:58:21.200 --> 00:58:25.597
Uh and even Republican politicians,
I think, um are kind of falling for this.

00:58:25.680 --> 00:58:29.997
So yeah, I mean it's a rarely desirable
nar and of course you know as AI touches

00:58:30.080 --> 00:58:33.437
more and more things, more and more
parts of the economy, every business is

00:58:33.520 --> 00:58:37.277
going to use it to some degree. If you
can regulate AI, then that kind of gives

00:58:37.360 --> 00:58:42.317
you a lot of control over lots of other
things. And like I mentioned, AI is kind

00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:44.397
of eating the internet.
It's like the main way that you're getting

00:58:44.480 --> 00:58:49.517
information. So again, if you can kind
of get your hooks into what the AI is

00:58:49.600 --> 00:58:54.397
showing people, now you can control what
they see and hear and think. uh which

00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:57.277
dovetales with the whole with the left
censorship, you know, agenda, which

00:58:57.360 --> 00:59:02.077
they've never given up on. Uh dovetales
with their agenda to brainwash kids, uh

00:59:02.160 --> 00:59:05.997
which we, you know, which is kind of
the whole woke thing. So, I mean, this is

00:59:06.080 --> 00:59:09.597
this is going to be very desirable
for the left. And and this is why I mean,

00:59:09.680 --> 00:59:11.037
look, they're they're already doing

00:59:11.120 --> 00:59:12.637
this. This is not like some prediction

00:59:12.720 --> 00:59:16.717
on my part. Basically, after um scam,

00:59:16.800 --> 00:59:20.557
bankr run fraud uh did what he did with
FTX and got sent to jail. Well, he was

00:59:20.640 --> 00:59:25.677
like a big effective altruist and he had
made um pandemics like their big cause.

00:59:25.760 --> 00:59:29.517
They needed a new cause and they got
behind this idea of of X risk which

00:59:29.600 --> 00:59:34.797
existential risk. The idea being if
there's like a 1% chance of um AI ending

00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:38.317
the world then we should drop everything
and just focus on that because you do

00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:41.677
the expected value calculation and so
if it ends humanity then that's the only

00:59:41.760 --> 00:59:45.997
thing you should focus on even if it's
you know very small percentage chance.

00:59:46.080 --> 00:59:50.477
But they really like reorganized behind
this with all and you know they've got

00:59:50.560 --> 00:59:52.717
quite a few advocates and actually it's

00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:54.477
it's an amazing story about how much

00:59:54.560 --> 00:59:58.237
influence they were able to achieve um

00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.157
largely behind the scenes or in the
shadows during the Biden years. They

01:00:02.240 --> 01:00:06.317
basically convinced all of the major
Biden staffers of this um view of this

01:00:06.400 --> 01:00:09.997
like imminent super intelligence
is coming. We should be really afraid of

01:00:10.080 --> 01:00:13.757
it. We need to consolidate control
over it. there should only be, you know,

01:00:13.840 --> 01:00:17.277
ideally two or three companies that have
it. We don't want anyone in the rest of

01:00:17.360 --> 01:00:19.997
the world to get it. And then, you know,
what they said is, you know, once we

01:00:20.080 --> 01:00:23.837
make sure that there's only two or three
American companies, we'll u we'll solve

01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:26.717
the coordination problems. That's what
they consider to be the, you know, the

01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:30.237
free market. Uh we'll solve those
coordination problems for buying those

01:00:30.320 --> 01:00:32.637
um companies and we'll be able to

01:00:32.720 --> 01:00:37.437
control this whole thing and prevent
the the genie from escaping the bottle. I

01:00:37.520 --> 01:00:41.437
think it was like this totally paranoid
version of what would happen. And it's

01:00:41.520 --> 01:00:42.797
already being it's already in the

01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:46.717
process of being refuted. But this this

01:00:46.800 --> 01:00:51.277
vision is fundamentally what animated
the Biden executive order on AI. It's

01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:54.717
what animated the Biden diffusion rule
and Mark. I mean, you've talked about

01:00:54.800 --> 01:00:58.157
how you were in a meeting with Biden
folks and they were going to basically

01:00:58.240 --> 01:01:01.037
ban open source and >> they
were going to they're basically

01:01:01.120 --> 01:01:04.557
going to anoint two or three
winners and that was it. Um

01:01:04.640 --> 01:01:07.837
>> yeah, they told us that they told
us that explicitly. Um and uh yeah, and

01:01:07.920 --> 01:01:09.597
they told us exactly what you just said.

01:01:09.680 --> 01:01:11.997
They told us they're going to ban open
source. And when we challenged them on

01:01:12.080 --> 01:01:14.877
the ability to ban open source because
it's, you know, we're talking about, you

01:01:14.960 --> 01:01:18.557
know, math, you know, like mathematical
algorithms that are taught in textbooks

01:01:18.640 --> 01:01:20.317
and YouTube videos and at universities.

01:01:20.400 --> 01:01:23.597
Um, you know, they they they said we'll
during the Cold War, we banned entire

01:01:23.680 --> 01:01:26.877
areas of physics um and put them off
limits and we'll do the same thing for

01:01:26.960 --> 01:01:31.277
math if we have to. >> Um, yeah.
And that's the um Yeah, that's

01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:35.197
the uh Yeah, that was the >>
And you'll be happy to know that the guy

01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:40.477
who actually said that is now
an anthropic employee. It's not.

01:01:40.560 --> 01:01:44.237
>> No, that's exactly right. All all those
and and I mean literally the minute the

01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:47.677
Biden administration was over, all
the top Biden AI employees went to go work

01:01:47.760 --> 01:01:50.957
at Enthropic, which tells you
who they were working with during

01:01:51.040 --> 01:01:53.197
>> the Biden years. Um, >> yeah.

01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:55.597
>> Yeah. >> But no, but I
mean this was this is very

01:01:55.680 --> 01:01:59.757
much the narrative. you sort of had this
imminent uh super intelligence and then

01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:01.357
you know the one of the refrains you

01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:04.557
heard um was that uh AI is like nuclear

01:02:04.640 --> 01:02:07.517
weapons and uh and GPUs are like uranium

01:02:07.600 --> 01:02:12.477
or plutonium or something >> and um
and so and and therefore we need

01:02:12.560 --> 01:02:15.837
like an you know the way the proper
way to to regulate this is with like an

01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:18.317
international atomic energy commission

01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:23.357
>> and so you know again everything would
be sort of centralized and um controlled

01:02:23.440 --> 01:02:24.877
and they would anoint two or three

01:02:24.960 --> 01:02:27.597
winners and you Now this I think this

01:02:27.680 --> 01:02:32.557
narrative really started to fall
apart >> uh with the launch of DeepSeek

01:02:32.640 --> 01:02:35.277
>> which really happened in the first
I don't know couple weeks of the Trump

01:02:35.360 --> 01:02:37.437
administration because you know if you

01:02:37.520 --> 01:02:42.717
asked any of these people what they
thought of um of China during this time

01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:46.077
when they were pushing all these
regulations they basically you know and

01:02:46.160 --> 01:02:49.437
specifically well wait if if we shoot
ourselves in the foot by overregulating

01:02:49.520 --> 01:02:53.277
AI you know won't China just win the AI
race if you were to ask them that what

01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:57.197
they what they would have said they did
say is that China is so far behind us it

01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.637
doesn't matter. And furthermore, uh,
and this was said completely without

01:03:00.720 --> 01:03:04.957
evidence that if we basically slow
down to impose, you know, all these

01:03:05.040 --> 01:03:08.317
supposedly healthy regulations, well,
China will just copy us and do the same

01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:13.117
thing. I think it was an absurdly naive
view. I think that if we shoot ourselves

01:03:13.200 --> 01:03:15.917
in the foot, China will just be like,
"Thank you very much. We'll just

01:03:16.000 --> 01:03:19.917
>> take leadership in this technology.
Uh, why wouldn't we?" Um, but this is what

01:03:20.000 --> 01:03:22.397
they said. And um and you know when when

01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:25.197
when the Biden executive order on AI was

01:03:25.280 --> 01:03:28.317
um crafted, there was no discussion

01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:32.797
whatsoever of the China compete,
you know, it was just it was just again

01:03:32.880 --> 01:03:37.277
assumed that we were so far ahead that
um that we could basically do anything

01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:40.557
to our companies and it would just be
it wouldn't it wouldn't really affect our

01:03:40.640 --> 01:03:44.637
our um competitiveness.
And I think I think that narrative

01:03:44.720 --> 01:03:48.877
really started to fall apart with um
DeepSeek at the model level. uh back in

01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:53.277
April uh Huawei launched a technology
called cloud matrix in which they

01:03:53.360 --> 01:03:56.957
compensated for the fact that their
chips individually are not as good as

01:03:57.040 --> 01:04:00.237
Nvidia's chips by networking more of

01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:03.597
them together. They took 384 of them you

01:04:03.680 --> 01:04:05.757
use their prowess in networking to

01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:10.637
create you know this rack system cloud
matrix and it was demonstrated to show

01:04:10.720 --> 01:04:14.157
that you know yes Nvidia chips are
better they're much more power efficient

01:04:14.240 --> 01:04:17.117
but at the rack level at the system

01:04:17.200 --> 01:04:19.677
level you know um Huawei could get the

01:04:19.760 --> 01:04:24.477
job done with these you know asend chips
and cloud matrix and so again I think

01:04:24.560 --> 01:04:27.357
that showed that you know we're not
the only game in town on chips which means

01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:31.197
that if we don't sell our chips to you
know our our friends and allies in the

01:04:31.280 --> 01:04:36.157
Middle East and other places,
then Huawei certainly will. Uh so I think

01:04:36.240 --> 01:04:39.197
it's just been kind of one revelation
after another in which we've learned

01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:42.557
that um that a lot of their
preconceptions and belief were wrong.

01:04:42.640 --> 01:04:46.157
And we've talked about the fact that um
that the that the markets ended up being

01:04:46.240 --> 01:04:49.677
much more decentralized than they ever
could have predicted. And and I'd also

01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:52.637
say one other thing which is they they

01:04:52.720 --> 01:04:57.437
um they also believe that there'd be
you know um imminent catastrophes that

01:04:57.520 --> 01:05:00.077
haven't so this is kind of like
the equivalent to the global warming thing

01:05:00.160 --> 01:05:02.157
where we're all supposed
to be underwater by now.

01:05:02.240 --> 01:05:05.437
>> They [snorts] they were saying that
models trained on I think I don't know

01:05:05.520 --> 01:05:09.117
like 10 to 25 >> flops
or whatever were like way too

01:05:09.200 --> 01:05:14.237
risky. Well, every single model now at
at the frontier is trained on that level

01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:17.597
of compute. And so they would have
banned us from even being at the place

01:05:17.680 --> 01:05:19.757
we're at today if we had listened to

01:05:19.840 --> 01:05:24.797
these people back in 2023. So just
a couple years ago. So that's like really

01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:27.757
important to keep in mind that their
predictions of imminent catastrophe have

01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:32.877
already been refuted. And so things
are moving in a direction that um that I

01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:35.917
think are very different than you know
what they thought in you know let's call

01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.637
it the first year after
the launch of chat GPT.

01:05:38.720 --> 01:05:42.157
>> Right. So David just to uh come back
real quick while we still have you on on

01:05:42.240 --> 01:05:46.317
crypto. Um so the administration um
and I think the country had a significant

01:05:46.400 --> 01:05:47.997
victory uh earlier this year with the

01:05:48.080 --> 01:05:50.477
president signing the u stablecoin bill

01:05:50.560 --> 01:05:55.437
into law uh which was the the genius act.
Um and I I think that I'll just

01:05:55.520 --> 01:05:58.797
tell you what we see is like
the positive consequences of that law have

01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:03.037
been even bigger than we thought. Um
and I would say that's both for the stable

01:06:03.120 --> 01:06:06.637
coin industry and you now see actually
a lot of a lot of financial institutions

01:06:06.720 --> 01:06:10.317
of all kinds embracing stable coins um
in a way that that they weren't before.

01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:12.957
um and you know sort of the the the
phenomenon spreading in America you know

01:06:13.040 --> 01:06:15.997
by the way doing you know being being
in the lead and doing very well there. Um

01:06:16.080 --> 01:06:19.357
but but but just also more broadly just
as a signal to the crypto industry that

01:06:19.440 --> 01:06:22.717
like this you know this really is a you
know this really is a new day. Um and

01:06:22.800 --> 01:06:25.197
there really there really are going
to be regulatory frameworks that that make

01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:28.077
these things possible and and you know
that that are responsible but also make

01:06:28.160 --> 01:06:31.677
this industry really possible to flourish.
um and in the US um as you

01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:34.317
know there's a second piece
of legislation um you know being

01:06:34.400 --> 01:06:37.837
constructed right now which is the market
structure bill uh called the the

01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:41.597
clarity act um which is sort of the
phase two of the legislative agenda um

01:06:41.680 --> 01:06:44.157
and I wondered maybe if you could just
tell us a little bit about your view of

01:06:44.240 --> 01:06:46.957
of the importance of that of that bill
and and then you know kind of how do you

01:06:47.040 --> 01:06:51.917
think that process is going >> I
think it's extremely important um so

01:06:52.000 --> 01:06:55.357
as you mentioned we we passed the the
Genius Act few few months ago but that

01:06:55.440 --> 01:06:57.437
was just for stable coins stable coins

01:06:57.520 --> 01:06:59.677
are about 6% of the total market cap in

01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.717
terms of tokens. So 94% are all the

01:07:02.800 --> 01:07:07.037
other types of tokens and the Clarity
Act would apply to all of that and

01:07:07.120 --> 01:07:09.117
provide the regulatory framework for all

01:07:09.200 --> 01:07:10.957
those other crypto projects and

01:07:11.040 --> 01:07:14.957
companies. Um, you know, if we could be

01:07:15.040 --> 01:07:19.517
sure that, you know, currently we have
a great SEC chairman, Paul Atkins, and if

01:07:19.600 --> 01:07:23.037
we could be sure that Paul Atkins and
a person like Paul Atkins was always at

01:07:23.120 --> 01:07:26.477
the SEC forever, then we wouldn't
necessarily need legislation because

01:07:26.560 --> 01:07:29.517
they're already in the process
of implementing like much better rules and

01:07:29.600 --> 01:07:32.877
providing regulatory clarity. But the
truth is that we don't know for sure.

01:07:32.960 --> 01:07:37.117
And if you're a founder who's trying
to make a decision now about where you're

01:07:37.200 --> 01:07:40.157
going to build your company, you want
to have certainty for 10 years out, 20

01:07:40.240 --> 01:07:44.637
years out. uh you know we want
to encourage long-term projects and so

01:07:44.720 --> 01:07:48.237
again I think it's very
important to pro to canonize

01:07:48.320 --> 01:07:52.077
uh the the the rules that that's first
to provide the clarity and then to make

01:07:52.160 --> 01:07:56.797
sure there's enough stability around
them and sort of canonize those rules in

01:07:56.880 --> 01:08:00.157
legislation. That's the only way that you
provide that long-term stability. I

01:08:00.240 --> 01:08:03.117
think that we will get the Clarity Act
done. Like you mentioned it passed the

01:08:03.200 --> 01:08:07.597
House with about 300 votes of about
78 Democrats. So it was substantially

01:08:07.680 --> 01:08:11.437
bipartisan. I think it will ultimat
we're it's now going through the Senate.

01:08:11.520 --> 01:08:14.557
Um I think it will ultimately get done.

01:08:14.640 --> 01:08:17.757
Uh we're negotiating with a dozen or so

01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:19.597
Democrat. We have to get to 60 votes. So

01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:24.877
that's the the hard part is under
the filibuster. We got to get to 60. Uh so

01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:28.077
but we're negotiating with about a dozen
Democrats. And I I do think that we will

01:08:28.160 --> 01:08:30.717
ultimately get to to that number. We by

01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:33.677
the way we ended up having 68 uh votes

01:08:33.760 --> 01:08:38.557
in the Senate for genius uh including
18 Democrats. So, I do think that even if

01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:41.757
we just get, you know,
twothirds of the number of

01:08:41.840 --> 01:08:44.957
Democrats that we got for Genius, then,
you know, we'll we'll be we'll be fine

01:08:45.040 --> 01:08:49.757
on on clarity. But I, you know,
it this will provide the the regulatory

01:08:49.840 --> 01:08:53.197
framework again for all the other tokens
besides stable coins. And um I think

01:08:53.280 --> 01:08:58.237
it's just a critical piece of of
legislation. And uh yeah, this this

01:08:58.320 --> 01:09:02.797
would ultimately I think kind
of complete the crypto agenda where we've

01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:07.117
kind of you know moving from you know
Biden's war on crypto to Trump's crypto

01:09:07.200 --> 01:09:11.277
capital of the planet. Um and then you
know I think the industry will have the

01:09:11.360 --> 01:09:14.717
stability it needs and can
just focus on innovating and

01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.437
>> there'll be you know rule updates
and things like that but you know we'll

01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:20.877
fundamentally have the foundation
for the industry in place.

01:09:20.960 --> 01:09:26.077
>> On Genius Act um you know President
Trump really made that bill possible. I

01:09:26.160 --> 01:09:29.837
mean, first of all, it was his election
that completely shifted the conversation

01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:34.637
>> on crypto. We would still be, you know,
if a different result had been reached,

01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:38.397
we would have again like figure out
at the SEC. The founders would still be

01:09:38.480 --> 01:09:41.037
getting prosecuted. We wouldn't know
what the rules are. Elizabeth Warren

01:09:41.120 --> 01:09:43.837
would be calling the shots. So,
President Trump's election made

01:09:43.920 --> 01:09:48.797
everything possible. And it's his
commitment to the industry and he and

01:09:48.880 --> 01:09:52.237
his commitment to keeping his um
promises during the election that's made

01:09:52.320 --> 01:09:56.317
all of this possible. But also I mean he
got directly involved in making sure the

01:09:56.400 --> 01:09:59.517
Genius Act passed. It was the
legislation was declared dead many

01:09:59.600 --> 01:10:02.637
times. Uh I saw it with my own eyes that

01:10:02.720 --> 01:10:04.797
you know he was able to persuade um Rick

01:10:04.880 --> 01:10:09.517
Calstrren votes and uh twist arms cajul

01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:12.877
uh and um charm and um you know he

01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:17.437
ultimately got it done and um and I
think that clarity will be a similar

01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:22.557
result. people are always prematurely
declaring these things to be dead or

01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:25.917
whatever. Um there are a lot of twists
and turns in the legislative process.

01:10:26.000 --> 01:10:28.557
It's definitely true that you don't want
to see the sausage getting made, but um

01:10:28.640 --> 01:10:31.037
but anyway, I think we're
on a good track right now.

01:10:31.120 --> 01:10:35.677
>> Good. Fantastic. >> Great.
>> Pete Buddhajes went on allin recently

01:10:35.760 --> 01:10:40.077
and you guys talked about the the left's
identity crisis and you he's hoping for

01:10:40.160 --> 01:10:43.917
more of a moderate, you know, center
center left um to to to emerge. At the

01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:48.077
same time, we see Mdani in New York.
I'm I'm curious what you you think of what

01:10:48.160 --> 01:10:50.637
are you seeing in terms of what
is the future in terms of for the for the

01:10:50.720 --> 01:10:53.997
Democratic party in terms of it is there
a more moderate presence or is it kind

01:10:54.080 --> 01:10:57.597
of this Mani style pop
you know woke populism?

01:10:57.680 --> 01:10:59.597
>> I mean it certainly seems to me that

01:10:59.680 --> 01:11:04.877
Mani and and um I don't know like the woke
socialism seems to be the future of

01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:08.317
the party. I mean that's where all the
energy is and their base. I mean I don't

01:11:08.400 --> 01:11:12.717
want that to be the case. I'd rather
have a rational Democrat party, but um

01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:14.797
but that seems to be where their base

01:11:14.880 --> 01:11:17.677
is, where the energy is. And um you

01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:20.477
don't really hear um Democrats um within

01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:24.717
the party trying to self police
and distance themselves from that. Uh you

01:11:24.800 --> 01:11:28.477
saw I mean all the major figures in the
Democrat party have endorsed Ma Donnie.

01:11:28.560 --> 01:11:29.997
So yeah, I mean that's where that party

01:11:30.080 --> 01:11:34.877
seems to be headed. Um I I I think that

01:11:34.960 --> 01:11:37.677
um partly it's where their base is at. I

01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:41.117
think partly it it might be um a a

01:11:41.200 --> 01:11:44.557
misread of of uh it sort of it could be

01:11:44.640 --> 01:11:46.797
kind of like a partial reaction to to

01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:51.597
Trump where they feel like um you
know establishment politics has kind of

01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:55.037
failed and so they need a populism
of the left to compete with a populism to

01:11:55.120 --> 01:11:57.517
the right. And so I think that's maybe

01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:02.157
part of the calculation for why they're
going in this direction. But I don't you

01:12:02.240 --> 01:12:04.797
know fundamentally I don't think it works.
I don't think socialism works. I

01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:07.037
don't think the um you know, defund the

01:12:07.120 --> 01:12:08.717
police, empty all the jails policies

01:12:08.800 --> 01:12:12.157
work. Um so, you know, I think we're

01:12:12.240 --> 01:12:15.917
about to get another um you know, uh

01:12:16.000 --> 01:12:18.717
case uh a teaching moment in New York.

01:12:18.800 --> 01:12:19.997
Unfortunately, it's not going to be good

01:12:20.080 --> 01:12:23.197
for the city. Uh but, uh you know, we

01:12:23.280 --> 01:12:27.437
we've seen this movie before, but uh
but yeah, that's that's where I mean, it

01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:30.397
does appear that's where the Democrat
party is. Um I don't completely get it.

01:12:30.480 --> 01:12:32.157
I mean, other people have made this

01:12:32.240 --> 01:12:33.677
observation, but they do seem to be on

01:12:33.760 --> 01:12:39.597
the 20% side of every 8020 issue. Um,

01:12:39.680 --> 01:12:43.837
uh, you know, opening the border, um,

01:12:43.920 --> 01:12:45.997
you know, on the, um, soft on crime

01:12:46.080 --> 01:12:48.157
stuff, you know, releasing all the the

01:12:48.240 --> 01:12:51.997
repeat offenders and, um,

01:12:52.080 --> 01:12:56.957
and just sort of this, um, you know,
anti- capitalist approach um, you know,

01:12:57.040 --> 01:13:00.397
which I think will be disastrous for the
economy. I mean this but this is this is

01:13:00.480 --> 01:13:01.517
kind of where the party's at right now.

01:13:01.600 --> 01:13:06.797
It is it's a little scary because it
does mean that if we lose elections in

01:13:06.880 --> 01:13:10.637
places where we do lose elections it's
like you know there you could end up

01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:14.317
with something really horrible. Not just
like you know we're not just playing in

01:13:14.400 --> 01:13:18.317
the 40 yard lines anymore in American
politics. Uh and that that is a little

01:13:18.400 --> 01:13:22.557
bit scary. >> Yeah. >> And I
I do think that you know if it

01:13:22.640 --> 01:13:25.837
weren't for Donald Trump I think in a
way we we might already be there. Um,

01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:27.357
you know, I think, you know, but we have

01:13:27.440 --> 01:13:33.117
to make sure that this um this um the

01:13:33.200 --> 01:13:36.717
Trump revolution continues.

01:13:36.800 --> 01:13:41.117
La lastly, um we were just talking about
New York. Um recently in an episode all

01:13:41.200 --> 01:13:45.357
in in San Francisco, you you you know
endorsed bringing the the National

01:13:45.440 --> 01:13:48.397
Guard. You know, Ben off had his comments.
He he sort of, you know, went

01:13:48.480 --> 01:13:51.997
back and forth with those comments. I'm
curious if speaking of teaching moments,

01:13:52.080 --> 01:13:56.637
I'm curious if you see San Francisco
as savable in in some sense and and what

01:13:56.720 --> 01:13:59.757
what needs to be true
to to get there if so.

01:13:59.840 --> 01:14:03.597
>> Well, Daniel Luri is the best mayor
we've had in decades. So, I think he's

01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:08.717
doing a very good job um within the
constraints that San Francisco presents.

01:14:08.800 --> 01:14:12.717
Uh so, the the the mayor job,
unfortunately, we have a weak mayor in

01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.837
San Francisco. I I don't mean him,
I just mean like the way it's all set up.

01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.397
the board of supervisors has, you know,

01:14:18.480 --> 01:14:21.517
a ton of power and um over time they've

01:14:21.600 --> 01:14:26.557
been able to kind of transfer power from
the mayor to to themselves. Um and then

01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:29.917
of course you got all these leftwing
judges. I mean, it's just amazing to me

01:14:30.000 --> 01:14:34.717
that um there's a case right now,
this is a case that galvanized me several

01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:36.797
years ago, the case of Troy Mallister

01:14:36.880 --> 01:14:40.397
who was a repeat offender who uh killed

01:14:40.480 --> 01:14:42.317
pe two people on New Year's Eve. I think

01:14:42.400 --> 01:14:45.597
it was like uh 2020.

01:14:45.680 --> 01:14:48.717
Uh and um he was arrested four times,

01:14:48.800 --> 01:14:51.997
you know, uh in the year before that. Uh

01:14:52.080 --> 01:14:55.997
he he he ended up killing these two
people and he had a very very long

01:14:56.080 --> 01:15:01.437
criminal history. He had committed
armed robbery before, stolen many cars.

01:15:01.520 --> 01:15:04.157
Uh and he should have been in jail.
He should not have been released. But he

01:15:04.240 --> 01:15:07.917
was basically released thanks to the
zero bail policies of Chase Bodin, who

01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:11.677
was then the district attorney who we
got recalled. There was a huge outcry. I

01:15:11.760 --> 01:15:15.997
mean, even in San Francisco for there
to be a recall of a polit I mean, you got

01:15:16.080 --> 01:15:18.877
to be like seriously leftwing to um recall

01:15:18.960 --> 01:15:20.637
>> to basically alienate San Francisco and

01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:23.757
Chase Bin managed to be so far out there

01:15:23.840 --> 01:15:26.397
that he alienated even San Francisco.

01:15:26.480 --> 01:15:29.197
>> And yet, I don't
know why Tory Mallister

01:15:29.280 --> 01:15:33.677
isn't sentenced already and in jail
for 20 years plus, but his case is still

01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:37.757
pending through the courts, never ending.
And there's a leftwing judge

01:15:37.840 --> 01:15:41.037
who's considering just giving him
diversion. basically means you just get

01:15:41.120 --> 01:15:45.997
released maybe with an ankle bracelet
or something. Um, that's insane. So, I

01:15:46.080 --> 01:15:48.397
mean, that's what we're dealing with
in San Francisco. I mean, like crazy

01:15:48.480 --> 01:15:49.677
leftwing judges who want to release all

01:15:49.760 --> 01:15:53.917
the criminals. Uh, and um, you know, and

01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:57.197
so I just wonder like is Daniel
up against too many constraints and

01:15:57.280 --> 01:16:00.797
therefore I know he doesn't want the
president to send in the National Guard,

01:16:00.880 --> 01:16:05.277
but maybe ultimately it would be helpful.
Um but in any event, I think

01:16:05.360 --> 01:16:06.957
the president has has agreed to kind of

01:16:07.040 --> 01:16:11.037
hold off on that um out of you,

01:16:11.120 --> 01:16:13.997
you know, Daniel had a good conversation
with the president and asked him to hold

01:16:14.080 --> 01:16:16.637
back and um and you know, the president

01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.197
uh agreed and is giving him time to

01:16:19.280 --> 01:16:22.397
implement his solutions. And look, if if

01:16:22.480 --> 01:16:27.597
um if Daniel and his team can keep
making progress and fix the problems

01:16:27.680 --> 01:16:30.877
without the National Guard having
to come in, then so much the better. Um,

01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:33.917
we'll just see if and and I know he
wants to and like I said, he's the best

01:16:34.000 --> 01:16:37.677
mayor we've had in decades. It's just
a question of whether he'll be too

01:16:37.760 --> 01:16:41.517
constrained by the other
powers that be in the city.

01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:43.197
>> David, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

01:16:43.280 --> 01:16:46.157
>> Yeah. >> Fantastic. Thank you, David.

01:16:46.240 --> 01:16:47.917
>> Yeah. And thank you for the work. It's

01:16:48.000 --> 01:16:51.277
we we as much as anybody appreciate the

01:16:51.360 --> 01:16:55.357
work that you've done to uh fix
the things in the past and and put us on a

01:16:55.440 --> 01:16:57.197
great road to the future. Yep.

01:16:57.280 --> 01:17:00.797
>> Well, thanks and I appreciate what you
guys have done as well. So, thank you for

01:17:00.880 --> 01:17:03.917
for your support, everything you're doing.
So, >> yeah, >> I appreciate it.

01:17:04.000 --> 01:17:07.680
>> Definitely. [music]

01:17:16.800 --> 01:17:18.820
[music]

01:17:22.040 --> 01:17:24.060
[music]