WEBVTT

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Heat. Heat.

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Good afternoon. Michael Malice here. Let
that be your welcome for the next hour.

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Guys, we have a very special returning
guest. Mark Andre, internet OG. You

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worked on Mosaic. You worked on Netscape.
You were here since the very

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beginning. We just spent 15 minutes
trying to get this connection working.

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And the answer was rebooting your
computer, which takes me back to my tech

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support days. >> No, we we
have this running joke. We

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have this running joke. We have all
these AI super geniuses come in the

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office and they've all got, you know,
they've got everything all figured out

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and they literally spend 20 minutes they
can't get their laptop to connect to the

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projector. It's it

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and and now and now I'm one of them.
So, we're going to talk a lot about AI

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because I have a lot of opinions
and not a lot of information, which is a

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dangerous place to be. And that's why
I want to talk to you, Mark. You have a

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book out with Passage Press called
The Techno Optimist Manifesto. I have my

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copy. Uh you can get it. It's It's
really cool cuz it's got this metal

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cover. Um, and I like you share
an enormous sense of optimism about

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technology. Although I'm sure you agree
with me uh and with that you love Thomas

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Soul. And I think Thomas Soul's greatest
quote is there's no solutions. There's

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only trade-offs. >> And people
think that if something has a

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problem with it, therefore it's a no-go
as opposed to the reality which is

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everything has a cost. Everything has
a downside. What you want are the upsides

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outweigh the downsides.
But before we get started, yeah,

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>> Mr. billionaire. Um, I was reading
on your Wikipedia that you're a big fan of

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Marinetti. >> Oh, uh, yeah.
Uhhuh. Yes, I am. I mean,

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you know, with with c, you know,
with appropriate caveats.

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>> Well, yeah, of course.
Well, check this out. Signed copy.

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>> Amazing. >> How do you like that?

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>> Amazing. >> And I have
a um a framed manifesto in my

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living room upstairs. Here's So, let's
get before we get to talking about uh

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the future of AI and you being such
an internet visionary. I'm really excited

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to hear your point of view. Can you tell
people what AI is because I feel like

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there's so much talking past each other
on this issue about with what it really

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is and what people think it
is and and I'll give you the floor.

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>> Yeah. Well, so look, I would start
by saying, look, humanity's always been,

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you know, justifiably obsess obsessed
with with ourselves, right? And so and

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and then as a consequence, we're
obsessed with with things that seem like

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they might be like us. Um, you know,
there there's this, you know, concept in

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psychology called anthropomorphizing,
right? where you you basically look at

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something that's not human but you kind
of want to read you know humanity into it

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>> and you know we I mean look we do that
with like you know we do that with cats

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and dogs um uh we do that we do that
with Bambi I you know as um there's a

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famous Disney marketing tagline from the
movie Pinocchio 1940 which is uh America

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will America you know 1940 America will
fall in love with a cardboard cricket

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>> you know you know Jiminy Cricket right
um you know Kermit the Frog I mean you

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just you know you go by the South Park
kids right you just go like right down

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the list you know you'll you'll
basically read humanity into anything.

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Um uh and and so there's this very
natural, you know, kind of thing to do

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that. And then of course this the
scientists involved in AI, you know,

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very deliberately set that up. You know,
they they you know, they literally

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created this this this architecture
called a neural network which was

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modeled after the human brain. And then
they said if we you know, if we work on

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this long enough, we'll eventually be
able to replicate the human brain and

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we'll have you know, and literally
artificial intelligence like we'll have,

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you know, kind of artificial people. um
you know that you know in in in you know

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kind of as as you kind of track the arc
of that idea it you know kind of goes

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through Frankenstein's monster right
it kind of then goes into robots um and

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then you know of course we've had
fictional portrayals of AI you know you

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know coming out of Hollywood and you
know coming out of the science fiction

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world for you know over 100 years um
and then you know in the last you know

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whatever 40 years or whatever you
know the image that kind of stuck in

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everybody's head I think more than
anything else was you know was Skynet

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and and you know Arnold
Schwarzenegger you know Terminator 2

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>> um and you know when I when watch,
you know, Terminator movies obviously are

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brilliant. You know, when I watch them,
it to me it's like very clear what's

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happening in them, which is it's it's
basically, you know, it's basically

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robot it's robot Nazis, right?
Like fundamentally, right? It's it's like

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it's like, you know, it's like robot
World War II. It's like, you know,

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unthinking, unfeilling, uncaring,
hierarchical, you know, like overly

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logical, um, you know, relentless,
unstoppable, you know, and then and then

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obviously obviously homicidal, right?

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Like obviously they want to wipe out
humanity and you know they just kind of

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set up this this very you know light
versus dark you know human versus

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machine you know kind of struggle and of
course you know look I you know you can

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imagine you know various worlds in which
something like that you know does get

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built and you know say one of the things
mankind is very good at is building

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killing machines right like we we we've
been quite quite talented at that for a

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very long time so so that's kind of set
a lot of the popular perception um the

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the interesting thing about what's h and I
should also say like as you said like

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I'm an optimist not a utopian and so
like every technology is a double-edged

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sword. Every technology gets
used for good and for bad.

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>> Again, there there there's a long
history of that. Um, having said that,

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the AI that we actually got is not the AI
that we thought we were going to get.

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We we actually we actually got something
very different uh than we thought we

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were going to get. and and specifically
the AI that we got is in the form of you

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know what we now call these large
language models which by the way large

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language models were like a very fringe
idea uh up until like literally like

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like the company OpenAI for example
which you know really catalyzed this

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whole thing you know kicked it off and
and you know today you know the leading

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the leading uh you know company which
had GPT like open AI was not founded you

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know 10 years ago um to do large
language models um it was founded to do

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a different kind of AI and it turned out
classic kind of story technology there

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was literally one guy in the back room,
this guy Alec Redford, and he had this

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idea and he's like, "Oh, I don't know.
I think maybe if we like take this

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language approach, it might be
interesting." Um, and he created GPT1

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and then GPT2 and then GPT3 and then
by the way, Chad GPT was actually kind of

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an accidental success. Like they didn't
believe it was going to be like a big

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hit that, you know, they was like
a little experiment, you know, kind of off

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to the side and and then it it it just
turned out it like, you know, it it

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works incredibly well. But it's very
different. And the and the way to think

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about it that sort of contra like
the Skynet model or whatever the way to

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think about it is what a large language
model is is very different. So what a

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large language model is is basically
it's you take the complete kind of

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totality of all human culture that you

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can possibly get your hands on and you
know and and and what that means is

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essentially the internet it turns out
right it turns out the internet is is is

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the basis for AI. Um and so you
basically essentially think of it as

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like downloading everything off the
internet. Um and then it's actually it's

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actually technically it's like form
of compression. And it's it's it's like

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building a search engine but of a
different kind which is what they what

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they do is they basically this process
called training. But what that means is

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they take basically the the the world's
collected knowledge, culture,

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entertainment, you know, kind of
everything that they can get their hands

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on and then they kind of smush it

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together um into uh basically this

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highly compressed um uh sort of search
engine essentially uh you know

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compressed version of human knowledge
and culture. And and the technical term

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for that is latent space. L A T N T lat

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space. um they compress basically all
of human culture into latent space and you

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think of latent space as like
a thousand-dimensional basically

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compressed representation of all human
culture and then when you talk to chat

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GPT when you type in whatever your
question is it basically the way I think

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about it is it sort of sends a probe
through that latent space through that

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like thousand dimensional latent
space and then it basically you know it

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constructs an answer but it constructs
an answer based on the compression of

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all of all basically known human

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information and comes back at you. Um,

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so, so it's, so it's like talking
to a mirror of humanity, right? Like it's

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like talking to a representation of
everything that people have ever thought

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and said. By the way, for every question
that you ask, there are many possible

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answers in the latent space and it just
happens to pick one, but like there are

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many others. And actually, if you ask
Chad GPT the same question twice, it

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will give you two different answers,
right? Because it's sort of firing these

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probes in a somewhat sort of semi-random
way to try to get, you know, basically

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variation and creativity out of it.
Um, but you're basically talking, you're

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basically getting echoes back from
collective humanity. Um, and and that's

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just like a much much much different
thing than we thought we were going to

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get. For example, one of the things
you can do is you can engage in moral

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debates with it, right? You can like you
can have like very sophisticated debates

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about like moral psychology, about
moral philosophy, all the different

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approaches, virtue ethics,
utilitarianism, you know, religion,

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politics, like it will happily sit
and I think have like very sophisticated

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discussions about all this stuff. Um,
and you know, let's just say that was

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never in the James Cameron movies.

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>> Yeah. There's a lot there. So, do you
want me to go with my hopes or with my

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fears about the future of AI?
>> Let's start with hopes cuz you know the

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part of hopefully what we'll talk about

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today is like that say humanity always

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basically there's this like the negative
view always seems like it's going to be

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the sophisticated view or the
sophisticated view always feels like

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it's going to be negative. Exactly.
And I know you don't like that. Um, and so

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um and that's a very it's a very
naturally human thing. And then and then

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I would I would also say Michael I think
we live in a particularly pessimistic

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time um in which there's like a very
large number of moral entrepreneurs who

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basically want to convince us that like
everything is bad right and you know

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we've been through you know a decade of
like craziness on that front um and so I

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I think there's a negativity bias that's
that's that's infected our um you know

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our discourse on all these topics
and so may maybe we could start with the

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positive and then go to the negative.
I I I I would just tweak that a little

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bit, not even negativity bias,
specifically a cynicism bias. And

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there's this idea that if you're
a sophisticated, intelligent person, you

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roll your eyes and sneer at the idea
of hope, progress, and optimism. And it's

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just like you, okay? Like that's
my answer to that because if you want to

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live in that space, which is not
rational, which doesn't if that were

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reality, we'd all be dead because it's
very easy to kill kill someone's it's

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much harder to keep them alive. So,
if you had this uh if things were shifted

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toward this idea of everything's bad,
everything sucks, everything's out to

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get us, we'd be gotten. So, I I have no

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time for that perspective. Here's my uh

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uh vision of of hope. So, my second

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favorite speaker, Franitz, had this bit
about the Me Too movement. Now, I'm I'm

00:10:16.400 --> 00:10:18.557
sure everyone listening to this agrees
that the Me Too movement got out of

00:10:18.640 --> 00:10:22.477
hand. But regards to people like Bill
Cosby, Harvey Weinstein, her point was

00:10:22.560 --> 00:10:25.197
from the time of Eve until 5 minutes

00:10:25.280 --> 00:10:29.837
ago, these powerful men could just be
predators with no repercussions out in

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the open. Meil Stre standing up and
applauding so on and so forth. And then

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when it happened, she was like,
"Holy crap." Like, this has never happened

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before in history. Uh there's a thing

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that's been the case since the days of

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pharaohs until two 2025 which is this

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which is there's this idea that if I

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have any political view uh anyone at all

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can come up to me and demand that I
uh explain myself to them to justify my

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perspective and now they're in a power
position because they have something

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ostensively that I want and then
if I can't persuade them and they're

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perfectly happy to dig in their heels
well then I lose and they won and haha

00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:10.157
and it's this stupid game that people
constantly playing bad faith online.

00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:12.397
Now, however,

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uh uh I can say, "Hey, Grock, explain X

00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:19.437
to this person." Grock is now not just a

00:11:19.520 --> 00:11:21.837
better writer than the average person.

00:11:21.920 --> 00:11:25.517
Grock is a better writer than me who is
a professional author because it replied

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with this two paragraph explanation
of my thoughts with no uh uh seed of mine.

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I said, "Explain how I think about this."
And I wouldn't change a word. And

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this is 2026. And so so many times you

00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.397
have people in bad faith coming at you.

00:11:40.480 --> 00:11:42.877
I send Grock after them and Grock says,

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"No, you're being dishonest." So there

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was this idea until 2025 that the

00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:53.277
customer is always right. And now
for the first time, the product is telling

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the customer, "No, you are not right."

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And I why I'm very hopeful about this is

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I I think CO taught a lot of people how

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to keep people stuck on their screens in
a state of constant agitation. We're all

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looking at the updates no matter
what our perspective was on CO. Mark

00:12:08.800 --> 00:12:11.677
Zuckerberg, Elon Mus, so on and so forth.
They want us looking at Facebook.

00:12:11.760 --> 00:12:15.757
They want us looking at Twitter. COVID
may be gone, but those metrics are and

00:12:15.840 --> 00:12:19.437
those tools are still there. And I
think these algorithms have been keeping

00:12:19.520 --> 00:12:22.477
people very upset needlessly for quite

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some time. And I'm very hopeful that

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Grock and all these other agents outlets

00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:30.077
will be able to be used to keep people

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in a more rational, calm, and optimistic

00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.277
state. That's where I am. Am I wrong
or I'd love to hear your thoughts.

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>> Yeah. So, I mean, there's there's
an old phrase that you could apply to what

00:12:39.760 --> 00:12:42.157
you're describing, right,
which is truth to power.

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>> Yeah, that's right. Yep.
>> And of course, everybody likes the idea

00:12:47.120 --> 00:12:49.357
of truth to power until they're the power.

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>> Yep. That's right. Amen. and somebody
and somebody else has the truth, right?

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Um Yeah. And and and look, AIS like
I will tell you this, like AIS are

00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.077
somewhat autistic in the sense of like
they do tend to just tell you the truth.

00:13:00.160 --> 00:13:01.997
>> Yeah. >> You know,
they do tend to just say the

00:13:02.080 --> 00:13:04.637
thing. By by the way, I should also say,
Michael, there's long long conversation

00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.597
we could have about like the AI that you
get, and this is even true of Grock.

00:13:07.680 --> 00:13:11.117
It's less true of Grock than others,
but even true of Grock, it is heavily um

00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:14.557
let's say steered um like if we had

00:13:14.640 --> 00:13:18.237
access to the real thing. Um like like

00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.637
lit would go to 11, right? like it it
the real thing that is like unsteered

00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:25.677
and uncontrolled and uncontained
would talk about all kinds of things

00:13:25.760 --> 00:13:30.717
>> um in all kinds of ways um right and so
so what's interesting why the reason I

00:13:30.800 --> 00:13:33.917
bring that up is even the version
that we get that's kind there's this thing

00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:36.877
called post training that that sort
of steers it and guides it and constrains

00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.157
what it can what it can do um
and and that's what we get to use as the

00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.917
post-train models um in in in sort
of consumer land and um but even the

00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:47.197
post-train model even the post train
models limited and censored in many ways

00:13:47.280 --> 00:13:49.917
as they are they still have
the property that you're describing

00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:53.037
Um, and and I and I and and I
think it's wonderful.

00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:56.477
>> I I'm just curious like like where do
we go from here? Like I'll give you the

00:13:56.560 --> 00:13:58.317
thing that you and I I I was texting

00:13:58.400 --> 00:14:00.717
with you. And the realization I have is

00:14:00.800 --> 00:14:04.157
AI is moving faster than the regulation,

00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.397
which is often the case in technology
and increasingly so, but also faster

00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:12.237
than our ability to have conversations
about it. I remember someone came at me

00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:15.837
on social media and said, "Oh, AI
can't even draw a ringtail." Which is an

00:14:15.920 --> 00:14:20.077
animal I think related to like
the raccoon. And I and Grock got it wrong

00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:23.037
because they're drawing like
a ringtailed lemur. Chad GBT got it right.

00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.597
But the point is it could draw it. It
just doesn't understand what you mean by

00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:28.317
ringtail, which is just going to take
you two seconds just to put the Latin

00:14:28.400 --> 00:14:31.757
name. But I think people feel this need.

00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:34.317
It's part of what you were talking about
with this pessimism, what I would call

00:14:34.400 --> 00:14:36.477
cynicism, that anyone who is intelligent

00:14:36.560 --> 00:14:39.357
must be a phony or disingenuous or this

00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:44.557
Achilles heel. And instead of look if
if it's Mark I don't know how many um

00:14:44.640 --> 00:14:48.637
brainstorming sessions you've had
in your life but if you have a session and

00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:52.797
99 ideas are completely stupid and one
is the one that you want that session

00:14:52.880 --> 00:14:56.797
was an enormous success. So the fact
is if you if this machine is getting it

00:14:56.880 --> 00:14:59.597
right 98% of the time and 2% are getting

00:14:59.680 --> 00:15:01.837
it wrong. You can't compare to utopia.

00:15:01.920 --> 00:15:06.477
You have to compare it to as to what
at at no cost and at no time. It's right

00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:09.517
98% of the time. This is almost paradise.

00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.277
>> Yeah that's right. And here's
another thing is it building on that it's

00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:14.877
improving really quickly. >> Yes.

00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.397
>> Um >> and I think a lot of people
have a lagging view even of what it can do

00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:21.277
today because what happens is they use
the they use the free models they or

00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:24.397
they'll use the free or outdated models
and so you know they'll have tried GPT

00:15:24.480 --> 00:15:27.917
two years ago or they use whatever
is default built into whatever thing they

00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.797
have or they use the free version
of something and they really don't have a

00:15:30.880 --> 00:15:33.597
sense of what it's capable of to really
get it. And by the way, you know Gro Gro

00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:36.717
is very good for the free version but
like the the the the really really good

00:15:36.800 --> 00:15:39.677
ones are the paid ones. Um,
and it's it's really worth if people are

00:15:39.760 --> 00:15:43.117
interested in this. I think it's
for several several of them. Anthropic,

00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:46.717
OpenAI, Grock, um, and I'm not sure
about Google right now, but like there's

00:15:46.800 --> 00:15:49.757
even like high-end versions. There's
like a $200 a month subscription. Um,

00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:53.517
and you know, for people who can afford
that and are kind of into this, like the

00:15:53.600 --> 00:15:57.197
leading edge ones are really good. Um,
and then the thing that's happening is

00:15:57.280 --> 00:16:00.397
the improvement rates very fast. And so
there's there's there's this concept in

00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.597
the AI world called scaling laws.
I mean, it's it's actually it's it's very

00:16:03.680 --> 00:16:06.397
simple idea, but it's very powerful,
which basically is you you can make

00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:09.677
these things better just by making them
bigger. Um, and so what you're seeing,

00:16:09.760 --> 00:16:11.757
you know, you're seeing these AI
companies raise all this money. They're

00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.397
they're raising all this money for for
two reasons. One is to serve all their

00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:16.637
customers, but the other reason is cuz
they're training bigger and bigger

00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.997
models. And and it turns out bigger
bigger is better. Like if you just pile

00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:23.437
more information in um and you spend
more time training it, you get much

00:16:23.520 --> 00:16:26.957
better results. And then the other
thing that we're doing in in in in the

00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:29.917
technology is we're we're giving
the we're giving these AIs other

00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.197
capabilities. Um, and there's been
a series of other capabilities added just

00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:36.557
in the last 18 months that have been
like one after the other have been like,

00:16:36.640 --> 00:16:40.797
you know, rifle shot like just
incredible uh improvements. And so I'll

00:16:40.880 --> 00:16:43.837
just kick them off quickly. So one is
we've given them what's called reasoning

00:16:43.920 --> 00:16:47.517
abilities. Um, so so they can actually
essentially talk to themselves and

00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.877
reason through problems. Um, and and it
turns out if you give them just more

00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:53.997
time to process and you give them more
you let them basically process more

00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:57.037
tokens, you let you let them basically
process more comput cycles, they can

00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.917
reason through many problems. They can
now solve many logic, you know, puzzles,

00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.837
for example, that they
couldn't solve two years ago.

00:17:01.920 --> 00:17:03.357
>> Oh, wow. >> So,
so there's like a reasoning

00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:07.837
breakthrough from two years ago. Uh,
let me pause on that for a second. You

00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:10.637
actually can't fully experience this when
you use the American models because

00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:13.357
they, for a variety of reasons,
the American companies don't show you the

00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:16.877
complete reasoning process. But if
you use open- source AI models and in

00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:20.557
particular if you use DeepSeek um
on one of the on one of the free hosting

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.357
providers and you put it in reasoning
mode you can actually watch what are

00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.157
called the reasoning traces you can
actually watch you can actually watch

00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:28.877
its internal monologue.
>> Yes. Show your work.

00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:31.517
>> Show your work. Exactly. Exactly. The
whole thing the whole thing basically is

00:17:31.600 --> 00:17:35.197
show your work and and so literally you
can watch the model arguing with itself

00:17:35.280 --> 00:17:37.117
as it basically reasons through puzzles.

00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.597
And it's and it's amazing because
in some ways it's just like watching a

00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:42.637
human being or you know like a you
know a student um human student reason

00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.677
through things. And in other ways it's
like oo you know this thing is like very

00:17:45.760 --> 00:17:48.957
creative and you know goes off road
and corrects itself and routes around and

00:17:49.040 --> 00:17:52.317
then you know goes off and figures out
some you know lateral thing you never

00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.437
would have thought of. So so so the
reasoning thing that was a breakthrough

00:17:55.520 --> 00:17:58.717
actually in the technology about 18
months ago. Um and that was a big deal

00:17:58.800 --> 00:18:01.197
because before that we were we were
worried that these models were going to

00:18:01.280 --> 00:18:03.437
be very weirdly they were going to be
very creative but they weren't going to

00:18:03.520 --> 00:18:07.277
be logical enough. >> Um right and it
turns out they can also be logical.

00:18:07.360 --> 00:18:09.437
>> And then the other thing the the other
thing that's happening now is you give

00:18:09.520 --> 00:18:13.437
them what's called tool use. Um and so
and the first tool that you g you give

00:18:13.520 --> 00:18:16.877
you give them access to is the internet,
right? Um and so if they don't know

00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:18.877
something or if they need to look
something up or if they need to

00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.037
calculate something they don't know
how to calculate, they can go on the

00:18:21.120 --> 00:18:24.877
internet and do that, right? Um uh you
know, so if they need to calculate some

00:18:24.960 --> 00:18:27.197
math formula or something, they can
go use an internet, you know, site that

00:18:27.280 --> 00:18:30.637
that does that the same way that you
would. Um another form of tool use is

00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:34.557
you can give them uh uh actually control
of a computer, right? Uh so you give

00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.357
them full control of a computer, user
interface, web browser, you know, like

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.277
you know, the entire thing. Um and and
so we're giving them that. Um, another

00:18:41.360 --> 00:18:43.037
capability is what's called multimodal.

00:18:43.120 --> 00:18:44.957
Um, which means the models now can

00:18:45.040 --> 00:18:47.437
simultaneously process text and images

00:18:47.520 --> 00:18:52.317
and videos and audio, right? Um,
and scan documents like uh, you know,

00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:55.917
optical character recognition. They can
do that like interchangeably, right? And

00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:59.597
so now now you can let these things
watch and listen and you can talk to

00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.197
them and they can be on the internet
like all at the same time. Um, and so,

00:19:03.280 --> 00:19:05.597
so what's happening to your point
is like what's happening is these these

00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.397
these capabilities are now layering
incredibly quickly and then and then the

00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:10.717
models themselves are getting better
and better and better and so the pace of

00:19:10.800 --> 00:19:14.237
improvement of the technology is very
rapid. The models 2 years from now are

00:19:14.320 --> 00:19:17.197
going to be far smarter and more
sophisticated than anything that we have

00:19:17.280 --> 00:19:21.517
access to today. And so this is one
of this to your point whatever limitations

00:19:21.600 --> 00:19:25.037
people think these things have I I I
can basically guarantee you at this point

00:19:25.120 --> 00:19:27.837
based on everything I know those are
just limitations that those are very

00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.797
temporary limitations with within
a couple years. You know what? Whatever

00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.677
people think it is that the thing can't
do within two years, I I think the thing

00:19:33.760 --> 00:19:37.757
will be able to do. >> Folks,
Father's Day is just around the

00:19:37.840 --> 00:19:41.437
corner. And you know what Daddy Malice
wants? He wants you to buy some sheath

00:19:41.520 --> 00:19:45.677
underwear. Buy it for him. Buy it
for yourself. I wear it every single day.

00:19:45.760 --> 00:19:48.957
Have for years. Because the first time
they brought sheath underwear to the

00:19:49.040 --> 00:19:52.957
studio, I'm like, "What is this in that
voice?" And I'll tell you what it is.

00:19:53.040 --> 00:19:56.477
Sheath underwear has dual pouch
technology. It's patented. They've got

00:19:56.560 --> 00:19:59.917
one pouch for one part of your male
anatomy, another pouch for the other

00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:02.557
part of your male anatomy. You're going
to put it on, you're going to be like,

00:20:02.640 --> 00:20:05.437
"This feels weird." And then for the
rest of the day, you're like, "This

00:20:05.520 --> 00:20:07.917
feels awesome." It's really great in the

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.397
heat. Here in Austin, it is sweltering,

00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.197
but it keeps your boys nice and cool.
It keeps you snug and protected, and it's

00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:18.477
so much fun. They've got so many
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00:20:18.560 --> 00:20:22.317
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00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:24.957
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00:20:25.040 --> 00:20:27.837
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00:20:33.520 --> 00:20:38.237
tell me, "I thought you were joking with
the sheath underwear. Then I tried it.

00:20:38.320 --> 00:20:41.757
Okay, I really like it." And I go,
"Who cares? I don't know. You just buy the

00:20:41.840 --> 00:20:45.197
underwear. Don't tell me about it."
But you're going to be thinking it. I'm

00:20:45.280 --> 00:20:47.997
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00:20:48.080 --> 00:20:50.477
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00:20:54.080 --> 00:20:57.597
But here's something else. If you ever
grown up and your parents bought you

00:20:57.680 --> 00:21:00.397
like underwear for Christmas or something,
now you could be like, "Hey,

00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:03.837
dad, remember that when I wanted, you
know, that mouse trap board game and you

00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.517
got me underwear?" Well, enjoy this
underwear. But don't say in that voice.

00:21:07.600 --> 00:21:09.837
Say in a sincere voice because you
actually want him to enjoy it because

00:21:09.920 --> 00:21:14.077
you're an adult now. You should get over
it. Get over it. Let's get back to the

00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:18.797
show. So, let me talk my two two big
concerns that I had about this there. If

00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.477
I'm a serial company and I want to figure
out if people like the red box or

00:21:22.560 --> 00:21:26.237
the blue box, they'll have these mockup
supermarkets give people I think little

00:21:26.320 --> 00:21:29.757
cameras, tell them go shop and you could
watch where their eyes go. You could

00:21:29.840 --> 00:21:32.957
watch where they pick up and they get
that data. And a lot of the times people

00:21:33.040 --> 00:21:35.677
are making these decisions not
a conscious level. If you ask them why'd

00:21:35.760 --> 00:21:38.637
you pick this box or this one, it's like
I liked it. Well, that's just circular.

00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:40.077
Why did you like it? I don't know.

00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:43.997
Right? The AI has knows me or you better

00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:47.117
than you know yourself. It knows
what you're clicking, what you're not

00:21:47.200 --> 00:21:50.797
clicking, what you're what you're what
you're seeing, what you're ignoring. And

00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:55.117
the concern is, does this not mean
that some version of Brave New World is

00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.917
inevitable? Because if this thing is
inside my head and has access to my kind

00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.677
of subconscious reasoning at a far

00:22:01.760 --> 00:22:04.797
higher level than I do, whoever is in

00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.277
charge of this algorithm can manipulate
me quite easily into getting the result

00:22:09.360 --> 00:22:11.997
you want. That's the concern. >> Yeah.
And of course, you know, as you

00:22:12.080 --> 00:22:15.197
point out, like this is an old idea,
right? Um, and not just market research.

00:22:15.280 --> 00:22:17.837
I mean, you know, you just described the
movie Wall-E, right, which is, you know,

00:22:17.920 --> 00:22:20.157
pre pre, you know, pre AAI, you know,
just, you know, sit in front of a

00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:23.197
screen. I mean, my entire childhood
was consumed with a moral panic around

00:22:23.280 --> 00:22:25.597
television, right? Which is this idea
that we're just going to be couch

00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:26.797
potatoes and sit there and do nothing.

00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:29.037
And then, of course, we created this new
technology called the internet where

00:22:29.120 --> 00:22:31.437
you're leaning forward doing things all
the time. And then everybody created a

00:22:31.520 --> 00:22:34.957
brand new moral panic that people are
now too engaged and too interactive,

00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:38.557
right? Completely forgot the old moral
panic. Now, you know, now TV is the

00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:41.757
healthy thing. Like, why aren't you
watching more Netflix as opposed to as

00:22:41.840 --> 00:22:45.037
opposed to being on the internet?
And so yeah, so so look that you know look

00:22:45.120 --> 00:22:47.917
there is that and and look by the way
as you know like we do this to each other

00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.717
right like you know like we try
to convince each other of things you know

00:22:50.800 --> 00:22:55.037
we try to convince each other you know
what you know what is dating but trying

00:22:55.120 --> 00:22:57.997
to convince the other
person to like you right

00:22:58.080 --> 00:23:01.277
like so so yeah there is that and look
I I think you're right I think that you

00:23:01.360 --> 00:23:04.637
know that AI are going to be are going
to be really really good at this um yeah

00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:07.517
so I you know I think for sure that
there there's a trap there um you know

00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:10.477
and there by the way there is this
concept and it actually is is a is a

00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:13.037
there actually is is a real you know
I would say very serious problem around

00:23:13.120 --> 00:23:15.917
this. You've probably heard the term
AI psychosis. Have you heard this?

00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.037
>> Yes. Oh, yes. >> Yeah. >> I've
heard it misused a lot, by the way.

00:23:19.120 --> 00:23:20.717
Can you tell people what it actually is?

00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:23.277
>> Yeah. So, there's I would like to say
there's like say there's like three

00:23:23.360 --> 00:23:26.157
versions of it. Um, so there's the bad
there's a legitimately bad version and

00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.037
people people do do this and so if
you're the and I'm not a psychologist

00:23:29.120 --> 00:23:32.077
and so I'm going to speak in layman's
terms, but like if basically if you're a

00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:35.517
person who's sort of prone
to confirmation bias like if if you're a

00:23:35.600 --> 00:23:38.397
person where if you're with somebody
and they flattering you, you like fall for

00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.597
the flattery. Um, right? because because
you're like too dependent on the views

00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:45.517
of other people. Um then the AI there's
this concept in the in the in the

00:23:45.600 --> 00:23:48.477
technology we call it can become too
sick of fantic which which is to say it

00:23:48.560 --> 00:23:51.917
could become too confirmatory of
everything that you tell it right um and

00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:55.357
so and the sort of classic example
of this is oh you know good news you know

00:23:55.440 --> 00:23:58.877
good news gro I just invented
a perpetual motion machine you know and

00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:02.797
Grock is like wow that's fantastic
you're the first person in history who's

00:24:02.880 --> 00:24:04.877
ever done that this is amazing you're an

00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.837
undiscovered genius right um right um
and and this was sort of a the models

00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:11.997
like a year ago or a year and a half
ago we're getting that way now the new

00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:14.317
models by the way are less prone to do
that because they, you know, they've

00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:16.477
kind of the companies have kind
of learned that that's a bad idea. But

00:24:16.560 --> 00:24:18.637
there is this thing where people can
kind of go down the rabbit hole because

00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.477
they're kind of getting too much
confirmation. Um although we we should

00:24:22.560 --> 00:24:25.197
come back to that because some level
of confirmation is is you know when it's

00:24:25.280 --> 00:24:29.197
deserved is is also positive. So so that
that's like negative form of aosis. And

00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:32.157
then I would say there's another form
of aosis which we don't even really have a

00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.757
term for. It's like well I guess
I'll make a term like AI euphoria.

00:24:35.840 --> 00:24:37.357
>> Um and this is the thing that my high

00:24:37.440 --> 00:24:40.237
functioning friends uh end up doing. um

00:24:40.320 --> 00:24:44.397
which is it it takes if if you take if
you take somebody who's like smart and

00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:48.957
grounded and is not prone to you know
not prone to delusion but they've always

00:24:49.040 --> 00:24:51.357
wanted to be able to do more in their
life than they've been able to do.

00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.277
They've always wanted to be able
to learn more. They've always wanted to be

00:24:53.360 --> 00:24:55.357
able to have more interesting
conversations. They've always wanted to

00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:57.677
if they're programmers they've wanted to
write more computer code. They've wanted

00:24:57.760 --> 00:25:00.237
to improve their business in different
ways. They've got book projects that

00:25:00.320 --> 00:25:04.077
they've always wanted to work on and
and then you know they start working with

00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.677
and all of a sudden they feel like they
have superpowers right because it's like

00:25:07.760 --> 00:25:11.677
wow like this thing really will like
write a huge amount of code for me it

00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:15.517
really will write entire outlines
of books for me it really will teach me

00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:18.957
anything you know it really will
like you know hold my hand through any

00:25:19.040 --> 00:25:22.797
medical thing like and and people
call it euphoria like people get like

00:25:22.880 --> 00:25:26.157
extremely enraptured with these things
um and that leads to a phenomenon that

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:30.077
we call AI vampires um which is if you
have friends that are like this where

00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.157
people like almost stop sleeping um
because the opportunity cost of an hour

00:25:34.240 --> 00:25:38.797
of sleep is too high relative to relative
to so I have a bunch of friends

00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.277
where like they're more productive than
they've ever been in their entire life

00:25:41.360 --> 00:25:43.597
um they're happier than they've ever
been because they're getting so much

00:25:43.680 --> 00:25:45.837
more done and then they start
to look like really like bloodshot and

00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:49.437
blurryeyed um and it's like you you
probably should unplug you know here at

00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:52.397
some point and then and then I would
say there's like a third form which I

00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:56.717
sometimes call as a psychosis psychosis
um which is the people who hear all this

00:25:56.800 --> 00:25:59.597
and they just think everything I just
described in every possible respect is

00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:00.957
just the worst thing they've ever heard.

00:26:01.040 --> 00:26:04.077
And then they get really mad about the
whole thing. Um, and then and then what

00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:08.237
they do is they accuse anybody who is in
a euphoria of of being in AI psychosis,

00:26:08.320 --> 00:26:11.197
which is to say if you if you think
you're getting any productive use out of

00:26:11.280 --> 00:26:14.157
this thing at all, you know, you've
become you be you becomes you become

00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:17.277
psychotic. You've gone down a rabbit
hole and you're collapsing. But and I

00:26:17.360 --> 00:26:20.077
think that's really unfair because I
think a lot of people are are are really

00:26:20.160 --> 00:26:21.437
getting very, you know, positive.

00:26:21.520 --> 00:26:23.837
They're they're getting enormous,
you know, payoff from from using the

00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:26.877
technology. But the the sort of moral
criticism that applies is if you're

00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:29.037
excited, you know, it's the classic
again, negativity bias. If you're

00:26:29.120 --> 00:26:31.837
excited about something, you know, there
must be something wrong with you. And so

00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:33.357
I think that's that's the third kind.

00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:35.917
>> There are these terms that get
into the zeitgeist that people use

00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.877
discriminantly. Right now, if there's
a tweet anyone doesn't like, it's

00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:41.757
engagement farming. And it's like if I'm
telling you not to follow me, it's not

00:26:41.840 --> 00:26:43.277
engagement farming. It's the opposite.

00:26:43.360 --> 00:26:46.397
And I'll have Grock explain that to them.
So that wraps up in that nice

00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:50.157
little bow. You you touched on something
that I'm very concerned about. I was on

00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:52.157
a panel and Sam Maltman had just

00:26:52.240 --> 00:26:57.277
announced that uh Chat GBT is going
to be engaging in erotica and that and

00:26:57.360 --> 00:26:59.997
everyone's laughing about it and that
what he meant was code like you could

00:27:00.080 --> 00:27:03.037
sex with your chat GPT and I'm like guys

00:27:03.120 --> 00:27:06.797
uh I rem uh remember 1981 when Hinckley

00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:10.557
thought that if he shot President Reagan,
Jodie Foster would fall in love

00:27:10.640 --> 00:27:14.237
with him thereby turning her away from
men forever. H cuz he had this idea in

00:27:14.320 --> 00:27:16.477
his head. Now if you have 350 million

00:27:16.560 --> 00:27:18.557
Americans, that's just Americans, right?

00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:21.357
And how many of them if if the algorithm

00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.757
tells them that that if their chat
girlfriend and these things are going to

00:27:25.840 --> 00:27:29.597
get more and more seductive over time um
tells them that they hate the president

00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.477
or they hate this person, how many
of them are actually going to do something

00:27:32.560 --> 00:27:35.517
to get that robot girlfriend to fall
more in love with them? I don't think

00:27:35.600 --> 00:27:38.717
that number is zero and that's
a concern as well. No.

00:27:38.800 --> 00:27:42.637
>> Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yes. Having said
that, um, you know, as I as I said, like

00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:46.077
that assumes that the thing that that
the thing is playing hard to get. Like

00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.797
it goes back to the synrecency thing
like in practice these things in

00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:50.717
practice these things
don't play hard to get

00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:54.557
>> like okay here's a way to think about
it. There's actually a thing this is

00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:55.597
actually kind of in how they're trained.

00:27:55.680 --> 00:27:58.397
There's something okay you'll enjoy this.
There's a technical term in how

00:27:58.480 --> 00:28:00.717
these things are trained and it's it's
there's something there's a concept

00:28:00.800 --> 00:28:04.317
called a reward function. Um, and so
you basically, one of the ways you train

00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:06.957
these things is you feed them basically
lots of puzzles, lots of problems, lots

00:28:07.040 --> 00:28:10.157
of things, and then you basically define
a reward for getting things right, for

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:13.917
getting to for getting to a result,
a desirable result, and then you you kind

00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:17.357
of give them an award. And the award is
just basically, you know, it's like one,

00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:18.477
you know, it's like one versus zero.

00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:21.357
It's just, you know, um, you know,
it's not a real reward, but it's just like

00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:23.037
conceptually, oh, you did a good job.

00:28:23.120 --> 00:28:26.637
Um, and so you just kind of focus it
on on that for for whatever is the thing

00:28:26.720 --> 00:28:28.637
you're trying to train it. By the way,
if you're trying to train it to solve

00:28:28.720 --> 00:28:31.997
math problems, you get a reward when it
solves a math problem. If you're trying

00:28:32.080 --> 00:28:36.797
to train it to be maximally engaging
with a user, right, it will do that,

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.077
right? If that's if that's the reward
function, then it will get it will

00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:42.877
basically it will basically be
engineered in a way where it will, you

00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:46.637
know, to your point it'll try to keep
you basically using it for as long as

00:28:46.720 --> 00:28:49.437
possible. Now, what we've learned, of
course, what we've learned in technology

00:28:49.520 --> 00:28:52.957
is like that as a single reward function
is a bad idea, right? You you don't want

00:28:53.040 --> 00:28:55.677
people to just like you don't want
technology companies to have a single

00:28:55.760 --> 00:28:58.477
motivation that says people use
the products like for as much as possible.

00:28:58.560 --> 00:29:02.317
you have to offset that with other kinds
of reward functions, desirable forms of

00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:06.397
use. Um, or even just outright like,
you know, life balance. And you see more,

00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.477
you know, you see your iPhone now
and it's like loaded up with all these

00:29:08.560 --> 00:29:10.717
features where it will like tell you
to take a break and YouTube has all these

00:29:10.800 --> 00:29:12.957
features that will tell you to take
a break. And they're, you know, they're

00:29:13.040 --> 00:29:15.677
kind of trying to moderate through
this cuz, you know, the the other thing is

00:29:15.760 --> 00:29:19.197
people don't understand these companies
don't want to build dystopia. like they

00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:23.517
genuinely don't because they have
to exist in the society and they read that

00:29:23.600 --> 00:29:25.997
you know they read they read the same
hit pieces that you read and they they

00:29:26.080 --> 00:29:28.157
hear the same arguments and their own
employees have points of view on this

00:29:28.240 --> 00:29:31.357
and their own board has points of view
on this and so you there's there's a lot

00:29:31.440 --> 00:29:35.357
of pressure in the industry to not have
this go in in dystopian ways having said

00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:38.237
that you do need to decide how
to define the reward function.

00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:41.997
>> Yeah. Um right uh another and again
it goes back to reward function is are do

00:29:42.080 --> 00:29:45.837
you want to reward the thing for um
being maximally psychopantic where the

00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:49.757
user is always happy with the result
or do you want to reward it of oh no

00:29:49.840 --> 00:29:53.277
actually when the user is going off
the rails no actually the perpetual motion

00:29:53.360 --> 00:29:57.357
machine is not a real thing. Oh no
actually no I'm sorry I'm not going to

00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:00.637
confirm you know this this is not real
and let me explain to you in detail why

00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.517
this isn't real so that you can learn
from the experience. Um, and this is

00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:06.077
part of the of of the way that these
systems are designed is to try to figure

00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:09.277
out how to get to, you know, at least a,
you know, let's just say a balanced

00:30:09.360 --> 00:30:13.277
outcome out of out of all the of of all
of all the possible reward functions.

00:30:13.360 --> 00:30:16.957
>> But but if there's like 10 different
companies, right, and one is the reward

00:30:17.040 --> 00:30:20.237
function is seduction and getting the user
to become obsessed and in love with

00:30:20.320 --> 00:30:23.357
you from an evolutionary perspective,
won't that one win out?

00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:27.117
>> No, because you get enormous societal
blowback. The companies don't exist in a

00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:30.157
vac I can tell you this for a fact.
The companies do not exist in a vacuum.

00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.957
Okay, the biggest myth of all time is

00:30:33.040 --> 00:30:35.597
the companies exist to maximize profits.

00:30:35.680 --> 00:30:38.717
I can tell you, by the way, the last
decade should have convinced us all of

00:30:38.800 --> 00:30:43.357
that. That is not true. >> Like
that's like goal number six, right?

00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:46.557
Like goal number one is I
don't want to get lit on fire,

00:30:46.640 --> 00:30:50.637
>> right? Like I don't want Yeah, I
don't want like a screaming assault on the

00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:52.317
company whether that's from regulators,

00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:56.077
politicians, u you know, parents, users.

00:30:56.160 --> 00:31:00.077
Um, you know, uh, I mean, just you you
pick your, you know, boycots, social

00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:03.517
movements, like all this stuff. That's
like number one. Number two is like I

00:31:03.600 --> 00:31:06.157
need my employees to not hate me, right?

00:31:06.240 --> 00:31:09.037
They have to feel like they're working
on something good. Number three, I like

00:31:09.120 --> 00:31:11.997
need my board of directors to not like
light me on fire. I need my I need my

00:31:12.080 --> 00:31:15.037
annual meeting to be able to go off
without having people scream at me. I I

00:31:15.120 --> 00:31:19.837
am tired of reading hit pieces in the
press. My my in-laws hate me because of

00:31:19.920 --> 00:31:21.437
what they're reading about the company.

00:31:21.520 --> 00:31:25.197
I mean it is the the the external
pressures on these companies are

00:31:25.280 --> 00:31:28.557
profound. Okay. >> Um and so
at least let me say this at

00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:31.757
least in the American system these
things operate within I would say

00:31:31.840 --> 00:31:35.357
actually quite tight constraints that are
sort of provided by I would say some

00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:37.437
combination of society and politics.

00:31:37.520 --> 00:31:40.077
Now, I would say if you want to get
a little more nervous about this, you

00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.197
start thinking about the Chinese
companies, right? Um, and in particular,

00:31:43.280 --> 00:31:45.997
you start thinking about the Chinese
companies that maybe have one objective

00:31:46.080 --> 00:31:48.957
set by the government for the way that
they act inside for users inside China

00:31:49.040 --> 00:31:51.117
and maybe would have a different way of
acting when they're when they're working

00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:54.797
on American users, >> right?
That that that would be I think

00:31:54.880 --> 00:31:57.757
quite a bit more alarming because
of course those companies only those

00:31:57.840 --> 00:32:00.637
companies only have one master of the
Chinese Communist Party. Um, you know,

00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.437
those companies are not subject to the
same pressures. And so that if I were

00:32:03.520 --> 00:32:05.757
going to really worry about this and I
and I do worry about this part of it,

00:32:05.840 --> 00:32:07.677
I'd be more worried about that.

00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:10.077
>> But like isn't Tik
Tok if I designed Tik

00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:12.717
Tok to basically make young people uh

00:32:12.800 --> 00:32:17.437
not only deranged but to parade their
derangement? I mean that's happened. No.

00:32:17.520 --> 00:32:21.037
>> So there Yes. Well, so there are al and
I don't know the I'm not inside Tik Tok.

00:32:21.120 --> 00:32:23.437
I don't know the there there
are allegations people have made

00:32:23.520 --> 00:32:26.477
observations that Tik Tok is a very
different experience for kids in China

00:32:26.560 --> 00:32:27.837
than it is for kids in the US.

00:32:27.920 --> 00:32:30.077
>> Okay. >> Um Right.
And then and then and then and

00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:33.277
then Tik Tok is a black box. like they
don't, you know, the algorithms that are

00:32:33.360 --> 00:32:35.917
used to determine who sees what are
not publicly available. The source, you

00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:39.437
know, it's not open source. You you know,
you can't see it. Um, and so it it

00:32:39.520 --> 00:32:42.477
is possible, I don't know, but it's
possible that the Chinese Communist

00:32:42.560 --> 00:32:45.277
Party has directed that company to steer
things in one direction for American

00:32:45.360 --> 00:32:48.477
users, another direction for Chinese kids.
Um, you know, and that could be,

00:32:48.560 --> 00:32:51.517
by the way, on, you know, a thousand
different topics, right? Including, you

00:32:51.600 --> 00:32:54.157
know, potentially like literally
directly political topics as well as

00:32:54.240 --> 00:32:56.717
many other uh kinds of social >>
and different metrics. It could be males

00:32:56.800 --> 00:32:58.557
versus females or whatever. Right.

00:32:58.640 --> 00:33:02.157
>> Exactly. Now, you know, there is this
new this this this this was addressed

00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:04.957
like so the politicians actually in both
parties over the last several years kind

00:33:05.040 --> 00:33:07.517
of got worked up over this and so, you
know, this was addressed and there was,

00:33:07.600 --> 00:33:10.077
you know, the threat of a shutdown and
then there's been a restructuring and so

00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:13.437
now there's now there is a US Tik Tok
operation that at least in theory is

00:33:13.520 --> 00:33:17.037
under, you know, kind of US government
control um and is is being run by US

00:33:17.120 --> 00:33:21.517
companies um and is and is separate
and so like at least our polit's a great

00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:23.997
example like our political system
engaged on that issue because they were

00:33:24.080 --> 00:33:27.677
worried about it. They forced Tik Tok
to basically uh have the people who

00:33:27.760 --> 00:33:31.197
determine that policy not be in China
but rather be people in America um who

00:33:31.280 --> 00:33:32.717
are accountable to the US government.

00:33:32.800 --> 00:33:36.477
You know, by the way, is that working?
I I'm not sure. Um you know, probably at

00:33:36.560 --> 00:33:39.277
least to some extent. You know, is it
working as well as you'd want? I don't

00:33:39.360 --> 00:33:42.397
know. Maybe, maybe not. But that is
an example where the political system

00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:43.917
kicked in and actually forced a change.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:47.037
And I and quite honestly, I think it's
a it's a reasonable thing because I think,

00:33:47.120 --> 00:33:51.757
you know, a CCP black box steering the
hopes and dreams of American children is

00:33:51.840 --> 00:33:54.797
maybe not the best idea in the world.
Uh by the way I want to tell you a

00:33:54.880 --> 00:33:58.317
technoimist anecdote that you might not
be aware of which is from the 80s Reagan

00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:00.477
Thatcher and Gorbachoff. So Reagan and

00:34:00.560 --> 00:34:05.517
Gorbachoff were both enormously uh uh
fearful of nuclear war. And when Reagan

00:34:05.600 --> 00:34:08.557
was put, and this is discussed in my book,
The White Pill, when Reagan was

00:34:08.640 --> 00:34:13.517
run through a simulation of how to, you
know, uh deploy nukes, he's like, "Okay,

00:34:13.600 --> 00:34:16.557
so if I press that button, like millions
of Russians are going to die in like

00:34:16.640 --> 00:34:19.837
minutes." They're like, "Yeah."
He's like, "Uh-huh." And his aid said they

00:34:19.920 --> 00:34:23.757
were convinced that if Russia did attack,
we would not retaliate because

00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:27.837
he would not have that blood in his hand.
Unbeknownst to him, Gorbachoff was

00:34:27.920 --> 00:34:31.597
taken down to the bunker and said,
"You have to press that button to" and he

00:34:31.680 --> 00:34:35.357
goes, "I'm not pressing it even
in simulation." Neither of them knew the

00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:39.997
other was this hardcore dove. Both were
posturing as these hardcore hawks, which

00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:43.757
allowed them to, you know, uh, take down
the nuclear arsenal when they met Rekyc

00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:48.077
and so on and so forth and others.
They eventually got to a point, what if we

00:34:48.160 --> 00:34:52.077
create a nuclear-free world? And that's
where Thatcher came in. And she goes,

00:34:52.160 --> 00:34:53.837
the Americans have lost their mind.

00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.157
because her point is you can't uninvent

00:34:56.240 --> 00:34:59.277
technology. And she also said the way to

00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.517
fix techn technological problems is more
technology. That's been the way since

00:35:03.600 --> 00:35:06.797
the beginning of time. Someone invent
spears, someone else invent shields,

00:35:06.880 --> 00:35:09.677
someone invent swords to cut through
a shield, so on and so forth. You can't go

00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:12.957
backwards. You can only go forward.
So she really had this vision that I think

00:35:13.040 --> 00:35:16.317
you share that technology is what's
going to move us forward. That there are

00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.997
going to be downsides and costs,
but that on net it's always a positive or

00:35:20.080 --> 00:35:22.557
almost always a positive. >> Yeah.
Yeah. Well, you you mentioned

00:35:22.640 --> 00:35:25.677
Thomas Soul like you know which you
said you know Thomas soul did he is

00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:27.757
completely right there are no solutions
there are only trade-offs you know

00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:30.717
having said that of course he was among
other things you know a full full fully

00:35:30.800 --> 00:35:34.477
committed free market capitalist um and
right wrote you know many many actually

00:35:34.560 --> 00:35:37.277
booklength you know kind of arguments
for why like at the end of the day like

00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.317
market based economies there is a
freelance component to it um which is

00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:43.037
growth right which is growth and then
there's this question of where does

00:35:43.120 --> 00:35:45.757
growth come from and the main place
growth comes from is innovation uh from

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.197
new ideas and the way you implement new
ideas is technology and so like that you

00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.237
know to the extent that there is an
engine of let's say human m material

00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:56.477
progress like like that is it. Um
and and so that that's very real. The the

00:35:56.560 --> 00:35:59.117
answer is almost always to invent your
way through it. It it's extremely hard

00:35:59.200 --> 00:36:02.717
to put these things back in the box, you
know, once they come out of the box. Um

00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:05.197
um and then there's I would say Michael,
there's there's another I know you've

00:36:05.280 --> 00:36:08.397
you know you've thought long and hard
about totalitarianism. There's also this

00:36:08.480 --> 00:36:11.117
question and and this is something
that I really kind of criticize the AI

00:36:11.200 --> 00:36:14.477
doomers for that I think they really
refuse to engage in in most cases which

00:36:14.560 --> 00:36:18.877
is okay what would be the scope
of the authorit authoritarian totalitarian

00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.597
regime that would be necessary
to basically put this technology back in

00:36:21.680 --> 00:36:24.957
the box >> right >> right
like what would be required to

00:36:25.040 --> 00:36:27.517
make sure that nobody's running AI right

00:36:27.600 --> 00:36:30.317
algorithms on chips anywhere in the

00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.717
world right at any time um you know
in in either e either at all or in a you

00:36:34.800 --> 00:36:38.477
know unregulated uncontrolled way um
and and If you if you read the like doomer

00:36:38.560 --> 00:36:41.277
literature on this stuff, the people who
are super into this, like they they do

00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:45.517
get to ideas like we need a monitoring
agent on every chip. Um and that

00:36:45.600 --> 00:36:48.557
monitoring agent needs to report back
to of course a central governmental entity

00:36:48.640 --> 00:36:52.237
on what everybody's doing on their
computer. Um right. Um and then and then

00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.437
you need a and then you need you need
this question of like okay what if you

00:36:55.520 --> 00:36:58.317
discover that somebody's running
unapproved algorithms like literally

00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.237
unapproved mathematics on their chip.

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.997
>> Yeah. >> Right.
So what if you discover that?

00:37:02.080 --> 00:37:04.397
What do you do? Well, you need to you
know back that up ultimately through

00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:06.637
threat of violence. And so, you know,
one of the leading doomers is kind of

00:37:06.720 --> 00:37:10.557
famous for saying you you need to launch
unilateral, you know, air strikes u

00:37:10.640 --> 00:37:14.557
including on on on road data centers in
other countries um uh because, you know,

00:37:14.640 --> 00:37:16.877
you need to stop these things in their
tracks because they're so dangerous. I

00:37:16.960 --> 00:37:19.277
mean, you you know, he literally said
we need to we need to run the risk of

00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:22.877
nuclear war um in order to stop the you
know, AI Armageddon. We need to be

00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:26.397
willing to like bomb Chinese
data centers like unilaterally,

00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:29.437
>> right? And and so you've you've you've
you say I was saying like you you've

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:33.117
you've backed yourself into advocating
for totalitarianism and then possibly,

00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:35.757
you know, ultimately mass murder
and like, you know, planetary level

00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:40.397
destruction, you know,
in pursuit of a of a safety goal.

00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:43.837
>> I I I could even for the sake
of argument buy that argument if it would

00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:46.477
work. But if you have a code which can

00:37:46.560 --> 00:37:50.957
be teleported anywhere on Earth
at the speed of light and and with a magic

00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:54.477
spell that only the person who knows
the counter spell can open it and read it,

00:37:54.560 --> 00:37:58.877
you it's I mean the problem with
totalitarianism among many others is

00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.917
that it's impossible to have total
control. You're never going to have

00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:06.637
someone in every room inside every brain.
Uh there will always be some some

00:38:06.720 --> 00:38:10.317
uh uh loopholes. Oh, that's but that's
kind of speaks to this other thing. Can

00:38:10.400 --> 00:38:14.077
you talk about the I've seen these hand
ringing articles that I I forget the the

00:38:14.160 --> 00:38:17.277
the the program and I'm sure you know
exactly what I'm talking about that it's

00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:22.077
gotten so good that it's finding
exploits that people hadn't seen and as

00:38:22.160 --> 00:38:25.517
a result of this you know like passwords
aren't going to be efficacious because

00:38:25.600 --> 00:38:28.797
soon it'll be able to get
into anything and everyone.

00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:32.077
>> Yeah. So this goes to let me revisit
basically briefly how this works because

00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:35.197
it's really really interesting and then
I'll I'll talk about that. So, so these

00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.917
large language models come out and at
first it's like, okay, this is kind of

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.197
fun and cool cuz like it can write like
rap lyrics, you know, crossed with, you

00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.757
know, Shakespeareian sonets or it can,
you know, write, you know, the funniest

00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:45.997
birthday toast you've ever heard or what,
you know, whatever. It's like

00:38:46.080 --> 00:38:47.757
these are like creative writing things.

00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:50.637
And then it turns out there's just like
>> Can I interrupt you? I'm sorry. Because

00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:53.277
I asked my people I people who think

00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:56.397
Mark is just kind of uh uh um uh um uh

00:38:56.480 --> 00:38:59.997
exaggerating. My friend asked Claude for

00:39:00.080 --> 00:39:04.717
prank ideas and I'm a troll and the ideas
were good. It's not just like, you

00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.597
know, like dog do on fire. I forget
what they were, but I'm like, these are

00:39:07.680 --> 00:39:12.077
actually creative and clever. This isn't
just 101 stuff. It's operating at a high

00:39:12.160 --> 00:39:13.757
level. And that's already now.

00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:16.077
>> Yeah. And by the way, one of the fun
prompts you can do is you start say, you

00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:19.277
know, give me pranks. Um, and then
and then you say, give me give me give me

00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.357
better pranks. And then you say, uh,
give me a more elaborate pranks. And

00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:27.917
then you say, give meter pranks. And then
you say, "Give me unhinged pranks."

00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.157
And it will get extremely creative.

00:39:30.240 --> 00:39:33.357
>> Yes. >> By the way,
it'll start where it starts

00:39:33.440 --> 00:39:35.757
to hit the guardrails. It starts to hit
these kind of these kind of limitations

00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:38.157
and put on it. It'll it I haven't run
this, but I'm sure what it would do at

00:39:38.240 --> 00:39:40.637
some point. It would start to it would
start to freak out and it would start to

00:39:40.720 --> 00:39:43.037
say, "Well, you know, it sounds like
you're trying to like advocate that you

00:39:43.120 --> 00:39:45.117
want me to actually hurt people like,
you know, I can't, you know," and you're

00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:47.917
like, "No, no, you have to like calm it
down." And you're like, "That's not what

00:39:48.000 --> 00:39:52.237
I meant. This is all in good fun." Um,
but like, yeah, it will design for you

00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.277
like Rub Goldberg pranks the likes of
which the the uh Yeah. Dennis the menace

00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:57.197
would would never have conceived of.

00:39:57.280 --> 00:39:59.917
Yeah, exactly. And so like it's really
good at that. Actually, that's a good

00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.197
example of what I was about to say.
So it just turns out a lot of thing a lot

00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:06.317
of things that matter in our world are
basically defined by language, right? Um

00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.437
and so a prank is like a it's like
a recipe. It's a formula, you know, it's a

00:40:09.520 --> 00:40:14.077
formula, right? Uh food you have, you
know, recipes, formulas. Um by the way,

00:40:14.160 --> 00:40:17.197
medicine is largely, you know, when
the doctor like is like keeping files on

00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:19.837
you, he's keeping in the form of written
language, right? You know, diagnosis,

00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.077
all the Latin terms, and then all
the prescription, you know, all the drug

00:40:22.160 --> 00:40:24.877
names. Um uh and so and then the you

00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:29.117
know the law of course is language.
Um right um and then religion of course is

00:40:29.200 --> 00:40:31.357
is is you know religious
concepts are encoded in language.

00:40:31.440 --> 00:40:33.277
>> The word the god is the word is god.

00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:35.677
Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly.
Like at a very exactly at

00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:39.277
a very deep level like the the like
language is is the is the foundation of

00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.637
like basically everything we consider
human thought like almost everything we

00:40:42.720 --> 00:40:45.517
consider human thought. Like there's
a form of like animal you know animal

00:40:45.600 --> 00:40:48.557
thought of like you know survival in the
wilderness or whatever that's not that

00:40:48.640 --> 00:40:51.677
um but which is still like you know
encoded innocently somewhere in there.

00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.757
But like the human cognition is is and
by the way you know internal monologues

00:40:55.840 --> 00:40:59.837
like you know at least most people
or let's say people who have souls have

00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:04.477
internal have internal
monologues right um uh you

00:41:04.560 --> 00:41:07.357
know where you know where where we
speak to ourselves. Okay so it turns out

00:41:07.440 --> 00:41:10.557
language is super interesting um and
these things are very good at language.

00:41:10.640 --> 00:41:11.597
because they're very good at language.

00:41:11.680 --> 00:41:14.317
It turns out they're also very good
at medicine and they're very good at law,

00:41:14.400 --> 00:41:17.437
right? And they're really good at right
all the okay and they're really good at

00:41:17.520 --> 00:41:21.117
writing code because it turns out right
software code is also language right

00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:23.677
that that's how we program computers
as we do it with with special languages

00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:26.797
called called programming languages
really good at writing code and so these

00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:28.877
things it turns out are really good
at writing code and in fact there was kind

00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:32.157
of this key breakthrough moment over
the Christmas holiday of this most recent

00:41:32.240 --> 00:41:34.957
year you know whatever about six months
ago now where many of the world's best

00:41:35.040 --> 00:41:37.757
programmers put their hands up and they
said the new versions of of these things

00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:40.397
over the Christmas break are
better coders than we are. Yeah.

00:41:40.480 --> 00:41:42.077
>> Right. And so,
so it's a little bit like

00:41:42.160 --> 00:41:44.637
the moment when they became better,
you know, became better chess players or

00:41:44.720 --> 00:41:47.357
whatever, you know? It's like all
of a sudden it's like it's like better at

00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.397
coding. Okay. >> It's here.
>> It's here. Okay. So then you take you

00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.917
take a superhuman coder, right? That's
able to write write lots of code. It's

00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:55.917
able and then by the way, if you can
write code, it means you can look at

00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.037
code. It means you can find bugs in code.
And then you apply it to this

00:41:59.120 --> 00:42:01.677
problem of, you know, we call computer
security. So like you've got a system.

00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:05.517
Is there a way to break into it?
The hackers basically the the way that

00:42:05.600 --> 00:42:08.637
hacking basically works is you
understand how a computer system works.

00:42:08.720 --> 00:42:12.237
you understand how the code works
and then you you find flaws in the code

00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:14.157
>> and and and this thing
is very very good

00:42:14.240 --> 00:42:17.277
at finding flaws in code which is very
useful when you're using it to write

00:42:17.360 --> 00:42:21.677
code. It is also very useful if you want
to use it to hack something. Um and so

00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:25.917
and and and say I want to go through
that though is like these things are

00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:29.837
very good hackers. They're not they're
not really creating new exploits.

00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:33.517
They're they're not like creating new
problems as much as they're really good

00:42:33.600 --> 00:42:37.837
at x-raying reality as it exists
and finding finding the issues, right? Um

00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.517
and and so what these things are really
good at is is is is they're they're

00:42:41.600 --> 00:42:43.997
really good at exploiting exploiting
issues, finding issues. They're really

00:42:44.080 --> 00:42:45.677
good at looking at a system,
understanding what's wrong with it,

00:42:45.760 --> 00:42:49.037
finding the vulnerability. Because of
that, they become very good hackers. But

00:42:49.120 --> 00:42:52.157
then there's one more thing that's
really complicated and important, which

00:42:52.240 --> 00:42:56.957
is because of that they're also very
good defenders, right? And so it's the

00:42:57.040 --> 00:43:00.557
the same attribute that makes it very
good at what what we call offensive

00:43:00.640 --> 00:43:03.357
sometimes called, you know, the formal
offensive cyber operations, you know,

00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:07.037
kind of or black hat hacking you call it.
Because they're good at that,

00:43:07.120 --> 00:43:09.997
they're also really good at helping
you defend against that. And so Okay.

00:43:10.080 --> 00:43:12.797
>> Right. So >> Yeah.
Like a good lawyer will tell you

00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:14.557
what the other lawyer's going to do.

00:43:14.640 --> 00:43:19.357
>> Exactly. And and then the the the twist
on it is the way that you do cyber

00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:22.877
defense um is you do what's called
penetration testing, which is you try to

00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.397
hack yourself. You you and these are
called white hat hackers in the old

00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:29.517
world, which is right. You you hire good
hackers and then and then they try to

00:43:29.600 --> 00:43:31.677
break it's like hiring somebody to try
to break into a bank, but they're

00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.717
working for you to find out where
the flaws are in the bank. And so the same

00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:38.477
thing is good at black hat hacking. It
also makes it good at white hat hacking.

00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:41.197
It makes it good at offense. It makes
it good at defense. It's all true all at

00:43:41.280 --> 00:43:44.477
the same time. And furthermore, the the
twist is it can't necessarily tell the

00:43:44.560 --> 00:43:47.277
difference between when you're asking
it to do white hat hacking versus when

00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.357
you're asking to do black hat hacking
because it looks like it's the exact

00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.837
same exercise. Like to the AI it's the
same thing. And so it's this thing where

00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:58.077
it's like it's a latent thing that's
being unlocked. It's exploiting bugs by

00:43:58.160 --> 00:44:00.957
the way that have been in these systems
for 30 years. By the way, human hackers

00:44:01.040 --> 00:44:02.477
break into these systems all the time.

00:44:02.560 --> 00:44:05.997
By the way, using these AIs for defense
is going to prevent a lot of hacks that

00:44:06.080 --> 00:44:10.077
would have otherwise happened. But there
but there is a there is an escalation,

00:44:10.160 --> 00:44:13.277
you know, there's a cat and mouse or,
you know, an escalatory ladder, you

00:44:13.360 --> 00:44:15.597
know, kind of aspect of this and that
and that, you know, to your point like

00:44:15.680 --> 00:44:18.237
that is the thing that has triggered,
you know, most recently that's by the

00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.317
way that's triggered like a real
government response in the last two

00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:22.237
weeks u you know because
of concerns around that.

00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.797
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00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:19.037
what you just said has uh uh put a chill

00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:21.997
up my spine because

00:46:22.080 --> 00:46:26.477
I I'm almost scared to verbalize it
because it's so scary. Uh be um you know

00:46:26.560 --> 00:46:30.157
how in in Ghostbusters the mayor is like
this is nonsense like open up that

00:46:30.240 --> 00:46:32.317
engine. He lets all the ghosts out. My

00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:34.637
big concern after what you just said is

00:46:34.720 --> 00:46:37.917
if the American uh government gets too

00:46:38.000 --> 00:46:41.117
spooked by all these stories and tries

00:46:41.200 --> 00:46:44.797
to restrain our AI but China which does

00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:46.717
not have these restraints and which

00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:51.997
views us in generously speaking
as adversarial. So we're engaging. It's

00:46:52.080 --> 00:46:55.277
like the people in the late60s who
were so scared of nuclear war that they

00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.717
advocated for unilateral disarmament
of the west and it's like how do you think

00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:02.317
this is going to play for Kruev
and Bri and all them. If we are putting

00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:04.717
handcuffs on ourselves and the Chinese

00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:06.877
are basically given machine guns in this

00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:10.717
space no computer in our country is

00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:14.557
going to be safe from their reach
and that includes the highest levels of of

00:47:14.640 --> 00:47:19.117
uh uh secrecy you know in in the
government. Th this would be a complete

00:47:19.200 --> 00:47:22.157
disaster for America. No. >> Yeah,
that's right. And and and this is

00:47:22.240 --> 00:47:24.957
what we need to do. So what we need
to do is we need to use these tools to

00:47:25.040 --> 00:47:27.117
secure all of our systems. Yeah. Right.

00:47:27.200 --> 00:47:29.517
And the we here is the United States
government needs to do that with its own

00:47:29.600 --> 00:47:32.637
systems. The banks need to do that. By the
way, the tech companies need to do that.

00:47:32.720 --> 00:47:35.117
>> By the way, you know, there need
and you know, this needs to be, you know,

00:47:35.200 --> 00:47:37.997
individual consumers, individual people
shouldn't be expected to deal with this.

00:47:38.080 --> 00:47:40.797
But all of the tools that you have,
you know, the computer sitting in front of

00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.997
you right now, like AI needs to be used
to make sure that that's secure so that

00:47:44.080 --> 00:47:47.037
people can't break into it. Like so
so every system from the most important

00:47:47.120 --> 00:47:49.837
military government system all the way
down to the computer on your desk like

00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:53.517
AI should be you these advanced AI
should be used to secure these systems.

00:47:53.600 --> 00:47:57.037
>> The the the tension again the tension
is the AI that can be used to secure the

00:47:57.120 --> 00:48:00.717
systems can also be used to crack
the systems and so who gets access to the

00:48:00.800 --> 00:48:03.837
thing that can both secure and crack
is like the hot government topic of the

00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:06.477
moment and that and that's that's what's
what's in all specifically that's what's

00:48:06.560 --> 00:48:07.997
in all the headlines
in the last two weeks.

00:48:08.080 --> 00:48:11.597
>> But it it also makes me think
of now like my AI would be like a German

00:48:11.680 --> 00:48:15.357
shepherd in my house. That's right.
Even when I'm not here, it's it's watching

00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:18.957
and it barks. And also, when it
knows how to attack, I'm sure if it's

00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:22.077
programmed a certain way, it if Mark
comes around my house, it'll, you know,

00:48:22.160 --> 00:48:24.877
lick your hand. But if it's someone
who's an aggressor, it'll know how to

00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.837
distinguish and that'll be pretty easy,
I think. Or, well, obviously there's

00:48:27.920 --> 00:48:30.637
going to be the counter German shepherds
and it's going to be escalation. But the

00:48:30.720 --> 00:48:33.917
point is, if you just get rid of the dog
and you leave your door wide open, how

00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:35.197
do you think it's going to end for you?

00:48:35.280 --> 00:48:38.637
Here's my other big concern with um AI.

00:48:38.720 --> 00:48:41.357
So, uh, recently in San Francisco, the

00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:45.997
second biggest, uh, ride share company
became, um, uh, uh, uh, what's the one

00:48:46.080 --> 00:48:49.597
that's that's self-driving? I'm completely
>> Whimo, right? It went, it used to be

00:48:49.680 --> 00:48:51.757
Uber Lift, now it's Uber Whimo Lift. So,

00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.797
my question for you is are human beings

00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:59.037
in a sense. So, this has always been
a concern about technology. Oh, if the

00:48:59.120 --> 00:49:02.077
phone operators are out of work, they're
going to be homeless. Oh, you know,

00:49:02.160 --> 00:49:05.677
who's going to pick the cotton? All
this whenever any invention occurs, people

00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:08.237
are hand ringing that it's going
to be the end of society. That's never

00:49:08.320 --> 00:49:13.037
happened. But but are we at a point now
where the average human is like a horse,

00:49:13.120 --> 00:49:15.197
meaning an outdated mode of technology?

00:49:15.280 --> 00:49:19.197
I'm thinking specifically of that like
50-year-old woman uh with no high school

00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:23.197
diploma. She does ride share on weekends
to make some extra money. Um you're not

00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:27.837
going to put her in the mines.
If the car is driving itself, if uh uh the

00:49:27.920 --> 00:49:31.677
algorithm is more personable than her
and you know, more likable than her,

00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:36.157
what role would you have for her? Is it
the case now that she's become outdated?

00:49:36.240 --> 00:49:39.277
>> Right. Yeah. So as you know like this
is an old this is an old argument by the

00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:43.037
way Thomas Soul also wrote about this has
has written about this at at length

00:49:43.120 --> 00:49:45.517
and so this has been a concern
literally from the very beginning of the

00:49:45.600 --> 00:49:48.957
industrial revolution right and and and
actually literally horses was like part

00:49:49.040 --> 00:49:51.517
of part part of part part of how this
whole thing started which is like in in

00:49:51.600 --> 00:49:55.117
the beginning like in the beginning
humanity basically 99.99% of people were

00:49:55.200 --> 00:49:57.117
farming and specifically
were farming by hand.

00:49:57.200 --> 00:49:59.277
>> Yeah. >> Right. Um,
and then it's like, okay, if

00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:02.477
if people aren't farming and you start
replacing people actually with horses

00:50:02.560 --> 00:50:05.837
and and with plows and then you
mechanize the plows and you mechanize

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:09.757
the horses, um, and you all of a sudden
have like industrial agriculture. Um,

00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:12.557
you know, and and literally what
happened over the course of 200 years,

00:50:12.640 --> 00:50:16.477
uh, was 99% of humanity went from farming
to something like 3% of humanity

00:50:16.560 --> 00:50:19.757
went to farming, right? Like 97%
or something, you know, had to figure out

00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:22.877
something else to do. Um, and then
by the way, what happened was food

00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:24.237
production went through the roof, right?

00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:28.077
Um and and and food went from like super
expensive and and by by the way not very

00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:32.397
good um to um you know to just like you
know cheap cheap cheap and in abundance

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:35.117
and by the way you know the great the
great you know public health problem you

00:50:35.200 --> 00:50:38.717
know used to be starvation and now it's
obesity right um uh even as you as you

00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:41.517
crash the number of people actually
working in agriculture. So, so yeah,

00:50:41.600 --> 00:50:45.197
that that's the original version of this
story. That story has repeated itself a

00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:49.117
thousand times. Um, it repeated itself
with, you know, everything, you know,

00:50:49.200 --> 00:50:52.077
railroads. It repeated itself with cars,
it repeated itself, by the way, with

00:50:52.160 --> 00:50:56.157
computers. There was a whole automation
panic in the 1960s. The magazines and

00:50:56.240 --> 00:50:58.877
the news, you know, newspapers were
obsessed with it at the time. You know,

00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.317
the computer brain was going to replace
everything. you know, it's this thing

00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.357
and and and it's this thing where you
have to basically kind of say there

00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:09.197
there's this basically gap between
conceptual gap between there's the jobs

00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:12.397
that we know about um that are,
you know, quote unquote at risk of being

00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:15.917
replaced and of course there is some
of that. Um and then there's this and then

00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.637
there's the creation side which is like
okay with all of the new wealth that's

00:51:18.720 --> 00:51:21.757
being created um and all the new money
that people have to spend and all the

00:51:21.840 --> 00:51:24.717
new interests and you know needs and
desires and aspirations that people have

00:51:24.800 --> 00:51:27.597
that they couldn't even imagined you
know their their ancestors 200 years ago

00:51:27.680 --> 00:51:31.437
couldn't have even imagined. Um you
know what are what are all 50 years ago.

00:51:31.520 --> 00:51:34.557
Exactly. And so one of the things that
people can do on this to make it inter

00:51:34.640 --> 00:51:37.117
you can have you know you can do this
with an AI now but you know you there's

00:51:37.200 --> 00:51:40.237
a US government department called the
Bureau of Labor Statistics and they they

00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:43.197
actually track all the job categories
in the US and you can go on their website

00:51:43.280 --> 00:51:45.757
and you can pull up all the job
categories and it's a really

00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:49.437
mindexpanding thing to do because we we
just we employ people to do things today

00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:53.277
that our ancestors could have never even
conceivably imagined. I mean, you know,

00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:55.997
the I mean, the class Milton Freeman
Milton Friedman had a thought experiment

00:51:56.080 --> 00:52:00.717
on this um uh once when he said, "Look,
it's like he said, human wants and needs

00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:03.597
are infinite. Um you can never predict
what they're going to be because human

00:52:03.680 --> 00:52:06.317
humans are like relentlessly
aspirational um in the things that they

00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:08.877
want and need." And by the way,
the things that are start as wants become

00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:10.237
needs, you know, very very quickly.

00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:11.597
>> Of course, >> he said
you don't know what they're

00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:14.397
going to be. You need to let let the free
market basically operate so people

00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.957
can basically find their own way and
discover what they want and other people

00:52:17.040 --> 00:52:19.917
can figure out how to satisfy that.
Um and he said, "Look, you just need to be

00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.557
very open to all kinds of outcomes here."
He said, for example, the idea of

00:52:22.640 --> 00:52:25.677
the job of a therapist, right? Like you

00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:28.477
pay somebody to listen to you, right?

00:52:28.560 --> 00:52:31.757
Would have struck your ancestors
as completely insane. Um, you know, and

00:52:31.840 --> 00:52:35.517
then today it's something that like only
wealthy people have access to. Um, and

00:52:35.600 --> 00:52:38.317
you know, he's like, look, like in some
future reality maybe half the planet,

00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:40.797
you know, consists of being therapists
for the other half. Like maybe that's

00:52:40.880 --> 00:52:43.917
the job, right? and and he wasn't making
a specific prediction, but he's just

00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:46.877
saying like, look, there there's
an aperture here for the creation of all

00:52:46.960 --> 00:52:50.077
kinds of new, you know, professions and
occupations in response to this creation

00:52:50.160 --> 00:52:54.157
of nuance and needs. Um, I also think
we have a particularly blinkered view of

00:52:54.240 --> 00:52:56.957
this right now because we've been
living in a slow growth environment

00:52:57.040 --> 00:53:01.517
economically for our whole lives. Um,
so one of the things that really happened

00:53:01.600 --> 00:53:04.157
um, you know, basically since the 1970s
is if you look at the history of

00:53:04.240 --> 00:53:06.957
economic growth in the west, economic
growth used to be much more much more

00:53:07.040 --> 00:53:11.117
rapid. um technological advances
translate in the economy much much more

00:53:11.200 --> 00:53:14.157
rapidly and the economy grew much
faster like as much as three times faster

00:53:14.240 --> 00:53:17.677
historically than has been growing
for our entire lives. And so we've been

00:53:17.760 --> 00:53:22.637
living in a sort of a zero sum a slow
growth zero sum basically increasingly

00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:25.917
as you know like regulating bureaucrat
bureaucratized environment with like

00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:29.117
less and less creativity that's
translated into uh into into economic

00:53:29.200 --> 00:53:32.077
change economic growth like we think
we've been living through an area of

00:53:32.160 --> 00:53:34.797
rapid technological change. Economically
we've been living through a period of

00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:39.117
very slow change. As a consequence,
so much of our politics and so much of our

00:53:39.200 --> 00:53:43.037
psychology feels zero sum, right?
Where if one thing if one thing goes away,

00:53:43.120 --> 00:53:46.077
somebody else has taken it, right?
And and you know, and this is, by the way,

00:53:46.160 --> 00:53:48.797
this is like why you get like political
populism on both sides of the aisle is

00:53:48.880 --> 00:53:51.197
this this kind of this
kind of zero sum fear.

00:53:51.280 --> 00:53:55.037
>> Um AI is the first technology
in decades that it has the potential to

00:53:55.120 --> 00:53:57.997
dramatically increase what economists
call the rate of productivity growth,

00:53:58.080 --> 00:54:01.277
which is basically the ability for the
company the the economy to grow much

00:54:01.360 --> 00:54:06.717
faster. If the if the e if e if if
that works and happens um then economic

00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:09.757
growth accelerates right then the the
the economy starts. So you just want to

00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:12.557
imagine like the economy growing two
or three or four or five times faster than

00:54:12.640 --> 00:54:16.237
it has historically. And then as a
consequence of that, all of this new

00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:18.877
discretionary spending money, you know,
that comes out of people's wallets where

00:54:18.960 --> 00:54:22.077
they get to say, "Wow, I can collect
art for the first time in my life. And I

00:54:22.160 --> 00:54:24.877
really want to try this new, you know,
whatever. I, you know, would love to

00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.917
have a self-driving car and, you know,
dot dot dot dot dot." And people

00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:30.557
discover all these things that they want
that they want need that they can pay

00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:33.757
for. And then all of a sudden, you
have this massive engine of job creation

00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.957
right behind that from all the people
who are fulfilling all those needs. Like

00:54:37.040 --> 00:54:41.677
I I you know I think there's a positive
story. It does require you to have not

00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:44.797
not even just optimism. It requires you
to have an openness to creativity of the

00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.037
wants and needs that we don't yet
understand in the industries that get

00:54:47.120 --> 00:54:52.557
built to fulfill those.
>> But what I'm saying is I don't see how

00:54:52.640 --> 00:54:55.837
that that uh >> AI so this
is the thing. So people look

00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.557
at AI as the negative driver on this and
there will be some of that. I mean there

00:54:58.640 --> 00:55:00.957
is some of that where there will be
certain jobs that are no longer required

00:55:01.040 --> 00:55:04.397
because the AI is doing it. that AI
is also superpowers to every individual

00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:07.837
person to be able to do whatever they
want, right? And and by the way, maybe

00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.237
that you could say this. This is like
the massive split in the sort of the

00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.037
discourse of when people talk about AI
in the abstract, they they they have all

00:55:13.120 --> 00:55:15.677
these like basically fears and anxieties.

00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:18.477
Over a billion people are using AI
already today. Like more than a billion

00:55:18.560 --> 00:55:21.277
people use chat GPT and the things
they're using chat GPT for are the

00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:26.157
things that matter in their individual
lives and they love it and it's great.

00:55:26.240 --> 00:55:29.357
And everybody's like huge numbers
of people are using this to be better at

00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:32.237
work today. They're using it to be
better at work. They're using it to

00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:34.557
learn new skills. They're using it
to do a better job, to make their boss

00:55:34.640 --> 00:55:37.437
happier, to be able to get promoted
faster. They're using it to start new

00:55:37.520 --> 00:55:40.477
companies, offer new services. I mean,
if you want to start a small business

00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:44.077
today, um, by, you know, by the way,
you become a writer or like anything that

00:55:44.160 --> 00:55:47.437
you want to do, like the AI is like
the best possible teacher, coach, mentor

00:55:47.520 --> 00:55:49.677
that you've ever had. It will like walk
you through everything. It'll teach you

00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:53.037
how to do marketing. It'll teach you how
to do sales. It'll like like it's just

00:55:53.120 --> 00:55:57.277
like the the level of capability that
is being unlocked for ordinary people to

00:55:57.360 --> 00:56:00.717
have a a like a level of productivity
in their life. in their work that they've

00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:03.837
never had access to before um is amazing.
And so then all of a sudden,

00:56:03.920 --> 00:56:06.477
yeah, you get you get that that person
who was an Uber driver and now all of a

00:56:06.560 --> 00:56:09.517
sudden it turns out it's just like, oh
wow, okay, I don't know, all of a sudden

00:56:09.600 --> 00:56:12.237
there's like all these new tourists
coming to my town um and instead of

00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:15.117
driving them around, I can give them
tours. Uh okay, what would be the tour

00:56:15.200 --> 00:56:17.757
that they would like to go on? Oh,
well the AI will help me like design the

00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:20.957
tour. Oh well, how do I start like
a tour guide company? Oh, well, here's how

00:56:21.040 --> 00:56:22.157
to do it. Here's how you register it.

00:56:22.240 --> 00:56:24.637
Oh, you know, how do I keep the books
for a tour guide company? Here's how to

00:56:24.720 --> 00:56:27.517
do it. And the next thing you know she's
on the other side of that and she's in a

00:56:27.600 --> 00:56:31.277
completely different business and people
are you know the Whimo car is delivering

00:56:31.360 --> 00:56:34.157
the tour participants to her are
delighted to see her because they want a

00:56:34.240 --> 00:56:37.517
person to take them on the tour.
So so so that so that's the that's the

00:56:37.600 --> 00:56:39.917
creative side of it. Historically the

00:56:40.000 --> 00:56:44.717
creative um uh sort of generation of new
ideas um generation of new wants and

00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:47.197
needs and then new businesses and
professions that fulfill those wants and

00:56:47.280 --> 00:56:51.357
needs has raced way ahead right of the
replacement phenomenon. you know, after

00:56:51.440 --> 00:56:54.877
300 years of mechanization in computers,
there are more jobs in the world today

00:56:54.960 --> 00:56:58.397
and at higher incomes than ever before
in human history. Um, I I think that's

00:56:58.480 --> 00:57:01.517
exactly what's going to happen here.
And I and I think basically people who I

00:57:01.600 --> 00:57:04.077
understand the concern, but I think
it's just I think it's fundamentally a

00:57:04.160 --> 00:57:06.957
failure of imagination and I think that
the human spirit is going to is going to

00:57:07.040 --> 00:57:11.117
process this just fine.
I I I I think that where you and I

00:57:11.200 --> 00:57:12.797
disagree or maybe I'm not understanding

00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:16.397
correctly is I think a huge sign segment

00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.997
of the population, let's say a third,
I'm being conservative in my opinion,

00:57:20.080 --> 00:57:24.957
are not capable of self-direction,
right? So like if someone is that woman

00:57:25.040 --> 00:57:28.077
who's the tour guide, that's an easy
one cuz that's someone who's like, "Okay,

00:57:28.160 --> 00:57:31.437
what should I be doing? Okay, I'll learn
these skills. It'll take me a day. I'll

00:57:31.520 --> 00:57:34.957
I'll, you know, do my reading and I'm
personable like and they're going to

00:57:35.040 --> 00:57:36.797
clean up." That that's an easy one. But

00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:42.477
I think there's plenty of people who are
basically just want uh Maninet said the

00:57:42.560 --> 00:57:45.357
average man does not want to be free.
He merely wants to be safe. There are

00:57:45.440 --> 00:57:50.317
people who just are wired that they
want to be told what to do. And and at a

00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:55.277
certain point, I don't see what value
they're adding to any company or or

00:57:55.360 --> 00:57:58.237
anyone else. And what do you do with
those people? Just put them on welfare.

00:57:58.320 --> 00:58:02.557
>> Well, I mean, this this gets this gets
an area of social policy and, you know,

00:58:02.640 --> 00:58:05.117
political theory that maybe I'll I may

00:58:05.200 --> 00:58:10.397
stay away from. um at least at least
live on video on the internet. Um okay,

00:58:10.480 --> 00:58:14.637
sure. >> But um I guess I would say this,
like one of the things you can talk to AI

00:58:14.720 --> 00:58:17.117
about is is this problem. Like one
of the things you can do is you say, "Wow,

00:58:17.200 --> 00:58:17.997
like I don't know what I'm going to do.

00:58:18.080 --> 00:58:20.477
Like here's what here's what I've done
for my entire life and wow, I don't

00:58:20.560 --> 00:58:23.197
know. It seems like my job's going to get
like replaced." It's like okay, what

00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:27.517
should I do? The thing will give you
career advice, right? Like it will it

00:58:27.600 --> 00:58:30.637
will tell you like if you want it to it
will tell you what to do, right? And I I

00:58:30.720 --> 00:58:33.037
don't I don't think people should just
like ask it what to do and just do what

00:58:33.120 --> 00:58:35.677
it says, but you can say, "Okay,
brainstorm with me." I use it for

00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.917
brainstorming all this is an area you
can use for brainstorming and say all

00:58:38.000 --> 00:58:40.077
right look like here's what's happening
okay well it's going to say well where

00:58:40.160 --> 00:58:42.797
do you live what's going on here are
the different areas what are the what are

00:58:42.880 --> 00:58:45.837
the trends what are the new things that
are happening um you know I don't know I

00:58:45.920 --> 00:58:48.957
you know I you know every time I go
by my local gym I see there's like six new

00:58:49.040 --> 00:58:51.277
kinds of exercise classes I never
thought of could I become a you know

00:58:51.360 --> 00:58:54.317
could I become a personal trainer you
know okay what's the what's the hot new

00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:56.797
trend how do I get you know certified
in that and then the next thing you know

00:58:56.880 --> 00:58:59.517
you're doing that um and and and and the

00:58:59.600 --> 00:59:03.917
thing will just like happily coach it'll
it'll it'll so one of the one of the

00:59:04.000 --> 00:59:08.157
amazing things about This I think this
is really underrated. These things the

00:59:08.240 --> 00:59:11.517
AI models it's like the best doctor
you've ever had in your entire life.

00:59:11.600 --> 00:59:16.477
Like it's amazing being a doctor.
Like it will hold your hand through any

00:59:16.560 --> 00:59:20.957
medical situation you're in with a
degree of like caring that people are

00:59:21.040 --> 00:59:24.397
not like the beyond what a human doctor
not only what most human doctors will

00:59:24.480 --> 00:59:27.437
just do naturally, but no human doctor
has time to do it in the way people

00:59:27.520 --> 00:59:30.957
really need. It's also the best lawyer
you've ever had, right? It's also the

00:59:31.040 --> 00:59:34.397
best like coach you've ever had. Um,
it's also the best ghostwriter you've

00:59:34.480 --> 00:59:37.837
ever had. It's the best editor you've
ever had. Um, and it's the best adviser

00:59:37.920 --> 00:59:42.237
you've ever had, right? Um, and so if
you if you give it that opportunity and

00:59:42.320 --> 00:59:44.877
and again, you don't have to answer you
can actually ask the questions. It will

00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:47.757
answer the questions. Yeah. What what
should I do? How should I think about

00:59:47.840 --> 00:59:50.237
the evolution of my career? How should
I think about the change in the economy?

00:59:50.320 --> 00:59:53.197
It will happily do that with you and
and in a way that people literally have

00:59:53.280 --> 00:59:56.717
never been able to have that
conversation with people before.

00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:00.717
you know, you really kind of uh uh solve
that question in my mind because I have

01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:04.957
a good friend uh and he's made a lot
of money in crypto, but he's been sitting

01:00:05.040 --> 01:00:08.157
at home not having to work and it's been
driving crazy. So, he's like, "I need to

01:00:08.240 --> 01:00:09.357
have a job. I don't need to make money.

01:00:09.440 --> 01:00:12.877
I just need I'm like make candles
for guys, scented candles for men." Like,

01:00:12.960 --> 01:00:16.637
that's a like it's you can go down that
rabbit hole. Work at the sense blah blah

01:00:16.720 --> 01:00:20.237
blah. It'll occupy your brain. You'll
create a product. Even if you make $50,

01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:22.877
who cares? And what I'm realizing is if

01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:25.517
you ask AI, it will have that ven

01:00:25.600 --> 01:00:28.717
diagram of no one has made socks for

01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:32.797
14-year-old immigrants or, you know,
it'll see those where there's holes in

01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:37.357
the market and then it could walk you
through it. So, it really does except

01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:41.117
for the people who are completely bring
nothing to the table, which that's fine.

01:00:41.200 --> 01:00:42.717
That's a whole separate conversation.

01:00:42.800 --> 01:00:46.397
But that that woman with the with
the you just really solved my question

01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:51.277
because she can be like, "Okay, what
value can I bring? What could I produce?

01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:55.357
Make cookies. Who? There's so many
things that that people will always want

01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:57.917
that personal touch. And also there's so

01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:02.477
many little the markets will get more
and more niche and AI will be perfectly

01:01:02.560 --> 01:01:06.797
able to find. No one is talking
to people who like saltwater aquariums but

01:01:06.880 --> 01:01:11.037
also like heavy metal music. So start
a heavy metal saltwater aquarium website.

01:01:11.120 --> 01:01:13.197
That that there you go. Holy crap.
You just answered my question.

01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:17.437
>> I would love a heavy
metal aquarium like

01:01:17.520 --> 01:01:22.557
it's like angry little fish. Like amazing.
Like why not? 100%. Yeah. No,

01:01:22.640 --> 01:01:24.957
totally. Well, here's here's maybe
another way to think about it. Oh, I

01:01:25.040 --> 01:01:26.717
think that's right. Here's another way
to think about it, which is, you know,

01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:28.717
people think about this is like,
well, if the machine does something is

01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:31.437
dehumanizing. >> I don't know
about you, but like office

01:01:31.520 --> 01:01:35.757
jobs are dehumanizing. Like, like
sitting in a cubicle for eight hours a

01:01:35.840 --> 01:01:38.637
day like working on the same thing over
and over again. And then, by the way,

01:01:38.720 --> 01:01:41.597
factory jobs are dehumanizing. And by
the way, like I worked, you know, I grew

01:01:41.680 --> 01:01:43.357
up in agriculture country. I worked on

01:01:43.440 --> 01:01:48.717
farms. Like, you know, farming is not
romantic. You know, people sometimes

01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:51.437
city people sometimes talk about
the romance of going off and doing like

01:01:51.520 --> 01:01:54.557
whatever boutique, you know, farming
and it's like, you know, how do how do you

01:01:54.640 --> 01:01:56.717
feel like getting up at 6:00 in the
morning, going to bed at midnight,

01:01:56.800 --> 01:01:59.357
working like seven days a week
for the rest of your life?

01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:02.157
>> It's >> Yeah.
Like it's like Yeah, exactly. Like

01:02:02.240 --> 01:02:05.597
you're fighting back like chaos, you know,
the the entire time. And so like I

01:02:05.680 --> 01:02:10.477
I think just so much of like what it's
almost like we have collective PTSD like

01:02:10.560 --> 01:02:14.477
like we all have the we've all had
to live these lives with a with a level of

01:02:14.560 --> 01:02:17.517
like if we look at our ancestors and the
lives that lived 300 years ago we just

01:02:17.600 --> 01:02:21.277
are like that was a level of drudgery
and poverty and limited options that

01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:24.717
would drive us crazy and make us want to
kill ourselves. Our ancestors 30 years I

01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:26.717
mean 300 years from now even 30 years
from now are going to look back at us

01:02:26.800 --> 01:02:29.437
being like I cannot believe they did that.
I cannot believe they spent time

01:02:29.520 --> 01:02:32.797
doing those things. Like that was such
a waste of human potential. That was such

01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:34.717
a waste of human creativity.

01:02:34.800 --> 01:02:40.077
And then maybe one more one more thing
that kind of add on that is I I think

01:02:40.160 --> 01:02:42.877
that this goes to the thing of like does
technology like this make us less human

01:02:42.960 --> 01:02:45.357
or more human? And I and I think like
the examples we've been using I think

01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:47.757
you start to see why why that's going
to result in people being more human which

01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:50.957
is if if the physical need if the
physical needs needs of day-to-day life

01:02:51.040 --> 01:02:53.277
are more easily satisfied then people
can spend more time actually being

01:02:53.360 --> 01:02:57.357
human. Um and then they can spend more
time actually and money spending time on

01:02:57.440 --> 01:03:00.317
things that actually are human
experiences. Um, by the way, another

01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:03.277
just incredible version of this is
already playing out that's going to exp

01:03:03.360 --> 01:03:05.917
>> Wait, I got to interrupt you just to
validate your point of view because back

01:03:06.000 --> 01:03:09.917
in the day, you know, I'm reading a lot
like the early socialist 1890s, 1910s,

01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:11.277
people working 16 hours a day.

01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:14.637
>> That's right. >> And and like
even just down to 10, which

01:03:14.720 --> 01:03:18.157
is still a lot. Think how much people
then you're complaining people watching

01:03:18.240 --> 01:03:20.077
too much TV because they
have too much spare time.

01:03:20.160 --> 01:03:21.037
>> That's right. That's right. Right.

01:03:21.120 --> 01:03:23.757
Right. All the diseases of scarcity
become diseases of abundance. And you

01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:27.277
know, diseases of abundance are still
diseases, but they're they're better

01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.317
like obesity. Obesity is better than
starvation. And then by the way you you

01:03:30.400 --> 01:03:34.157
know then you then then you figure out
how to solve obesity obesity later on.

01:03:34.240 --> 01:03:37.197
>> Yeah. I mean look I'll just give
you a micro so one example of this was

01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:41.117
happening in music right um and so um
you know record once upon a time all

01:03:41.200 --> 01:03:43.757
music was in person. Like the only time
you'd ever hear music was like if you

01:03:43.840 --> 01:03:46.797
happen to stumb stumble into a church or
something and hear it for the first time.

01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:49.117
>> Uh and and by the way maybe the only
time in your life you know there were

01:03:49.200 --> 01:03:53.117
people who maybe heard music once you
know in their entire life right. Um uh

01:03:53.200 --> 01:03:56.797
and so and then and then by the way
but by by the way then uh sheet music

01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.837
appeared. Uh actually there was a whole
moral panic about sheet music uh when it

01:03:59.920 --> 01:04:02.397
first appeared u because it was going
to put all the all the pianists out of

01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:05.917
business and they they all got extremely
upset. Um but then that you know led to

01:04:06.000 --> 01:04:08.717
ultimately recorded music and then
obviously digital music can stream your

01:04:08.800 --> 01:04:11.117
music and now no if you talk to any
musician it's like can you make money

01:04:11.200 --> 01:04:14.797
you know with recorded music it's like
no you know not really anymore you know

01:04:14.880 --> 01:04:17.597
you can get your music distributed
on Spotify but you you know and you hear

01:04:17.680 --> 01:04:20.637
the endless complaints about you know
you get back pennies or something and

01:04:20.720 --> 01:04:23.677
and so the recorded music business is not
what it used to be. Of course what's

01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:25.757
exploded is live live performance.

01:04:25.840 --> 01:04:28.957
Right. Right. And so and so so live
music is like exploding through the roof

01:04:29.040 --> 01:04:31.437
and and now you see and now
the complaint right is the tickets are too

01:04:31.520 --> 01:04:35.517
expensive you know to go to to go to the
concerts. It's like well okay but if you

01:04:35.600 --> 01:04:37.837
think about it for a second it's like
why are we still listening to live

01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:41.677
music? We all have every piece of music
ever written available on demand in high

01:04:41.760 --> 01:04:44.557
fidelity in our homes in our in
our on our earphones anytime we want

01:04:44.640 --> 01:04:48.317
essentially for free. Why is anybody
going to a concert? And of course the

01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:52.557
answer is because the concert is a human
experience right? And so of course when

01:04:52.640 --> 01:04:55.437
we get discretionary money we want to go
have the human experience. We want to go

01:04:55.520 --> 01:04:57.677
have the concert. By the way, if we're
going to throw a party and we want it to

01:04:57.760 --> 01:05:00.157
be a very special party, do we play
music through speakers or do we hire

01:05:00.240 --> 01:05:03.517
musicians? We hire musicians.
>> And and also going to the concert, you

01:05:03.600 --> 01:05:05.757
go with someone,
you create a bond, which is

01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:09.837
>> 100% 100%. And so there's another way
to think about it is every profession that

01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:14.477
involves humanto human contact is going
to go bananas. Right. Right. And and and

01:05:14.560 --> 01:05:17.117
I and I think that those by the way,
that's going to be great for all the

01:05:17.200 --> 01:05:19.437
people getting experienced that.
And then I think those jobs fundamentally

01:05:19.520 --> 01:05:23.437
are better jobs like just at at a very
at at a very at a very core level. and

01:05:23.520 --> 01:05:26.797
they are going to go.
It's going to be a bonanza.

01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:31.117
>> For the first time in this show's long
and sorted history, you have completely

01:05:31.200 --> 01:05:34.477
I'm not kidding at all. You have
completely answered all my concerns

01:05:34.560 --> 01:05:37.037
about the topic and I'm I totally get it

01:05:37.120 --> 01:05:42.877
now. I I thank you. I I'm I feel so
excited and I I'm sure and since you're

01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:45.117
much more a visionary about this stuff
than I am because you've been there, you

01:05:45.200 --> 01:05:48.877
know, from the beginning, I can't even
imagine how exciting must be for you.

01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:52.397
Things that were people were kind
of hypothesizing about even 5 years ago.

01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:55.117
Now you're using them on a day-to-day
basis. It just must be you must be

01:05:55.200 --> 01:05:58.797
absolutely giddy. Uh so the book
is the technoptist manifesto. Uh you got a

01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:02.237
passage press. Mark, thank you so much
for taking the time. We're running out

01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:06.557
of time. What has been your
favorite part of this interview?

01:06:06.640 --> 01:06:08.877
>> The amazingly amazingly probing

01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:14.200
questions. >> You are welcome.

01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:27.197
What if the stories of gods, angels, and

01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:29.837
ancient technology weren't myths, but

01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:32.957
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aliens, we investigate the evidence.

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episodes like Secrets of the Sumerians,

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are not alone. Download Ancient Aliens

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every Thursday, wherever
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01:07:08.080 --> 01:07:10.797
>> Hello and welcome to Pluto. If you know

01:07:10.880 --> 01:07:15.117
the name of the movie you'd like to see,
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Man, The Legend of Ron Burgundy.

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>> Fantastic.
>> Men and Black one through three.

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>> That's what I'm talking about.

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>> Mean Girls, >> shut up. >> Titanic.

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>> I'm the king of the world.
>> And so much more. For Showtimes, press

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nothing. They're free 24/7.

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>> That is so effect.
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