WEBVTT 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.597 where we're going from here. So, um, 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:05.597 so thanks for thanks for joining us. You 00:00:05.680 --> 00:00:08.397 have really the greatest countries in 00:00:08.480 --> 00:00:10.717 the world all around you. So, would you 00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:13.757 mind giving us a little history like how 00:00:13.840 --> 00:00:16.317 do how do you go from being Sam Alman to 00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:20.877 being the head of AI and really at the frontier like sort of walk us through 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:23.037 how you got from there to here. 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:26.077 >> First of all, thank you very much for having me. Um, as you said, this is 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.037 greatest countries in the world, and it's it's a great honor to get to 00:00:29.120 --> 00:00:32.717 address all of you at the same time. Um, 00:00:32.800 --> 00:00:37.517 I I was always an AI nerd. I was like a real sci-fi nerd as a kid. I thought AI 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:41.517 was the coolest thing. I always wanted to work on it. Um, I never like really 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.357 thought I'd actually get to do it. I kind of can't believe this happened to 00:00:45.440 --> 00:00:49.197 me, but I I always I always thought it was awesome. I went 00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.877 to school to study it. At the time nothing was working and I kind of gave 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:54.717 up on it and I went on this side quest 00:00:54.800 --> 00:00:56.397 of entrepreneurship which was also 00:00:56.480 --> 00:01:01.357 great. Um and then in 2012 00:01:01.440 --> 00:01:04.317 um everything changed. None of us paid 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:08.717 enough attention but there was a a real watershed moment where all of a sudden 00:01:08.800 --> 00:01:12.957 deep learning started to work and it got better with more compute. And I paid a 00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:16.797 lot of attention to that for the next couple of years. And by the time 2015 00:01:16.880 --> 00:01:21.117 rolled around, I was like, "Hey, this is really this is going to happen. Like we 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:24.557 got to take we got to try. This could be like the most important thing ever." Uh, 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:25.997 and so we thought for a while about what 00:01:26.080 --> 00:01:29.597 to do and started OpenAI. Uh, and 00:01:29.680 --> 00:01:31.837 >> so what year did you start OpenAI? 00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:34.717 >> Uh, the very end of 2015. Um, we 00:01:34.800 --> 00:01:35.997 announced it and then the first day of 00:01:36.080 --> 00:01:39.757 work was like January of 2016. 00:01:39.840 --> 00:01:42.957 >> So all right. So you start in uh in in 00:01:43.040 --> 00:01:45.757 2016 and and what are your like what's 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:50.477 the big goal that you start with and then how does that evolve? 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:52.077 So we knew that there was this magic 00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:54.077 piece of technology. We knew that we 00:01:54.160 --> 00:01:57.997 could apply compute 00:01:58.080 --> 00:02:00.477 to a problem and to learn it and we knew 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:05.277 that the more compute we used the smarter and more capable the system got. 00:02:05.360 --> 00:02:11.037 We didn't really know anything else. We didn't know how we were going to um 00:02:11.120 --> 00:02:13.357 what kind of system we were going to build. This was way before the idea of 00:02:13.440 --> 00:02:15.197 language models. We were trying to train 00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:18.717 a robot hand to do a Rubik's cube. Um we 00:02:18.800 --> 00:02:22.237 were trying to you know show that we could play video games. And we were 00:02:22.320 --> 00:02:26.077 really developing the algorithms and trying to understand how this amazing 00:02:26.160 --> 00:02:29.117 property of the universe worked. And and 00:02:29.200 --> 00:02:32.317 then not until about 2018 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:35.037 did we start making progress on on 00:02:35.120 --> 00:02:36.957 supervised learning. and then the first 00:02:37.040 --> 00:02:41.597 GPT1 model and not until 2020 did we 00:02:41.680 --> 00:02:45.517 train GPT3 which was the first model that I think actually was over some 00:02:45.600 --> 00:02:49.997 threshold of of usability. Even then most people in the world looked at this 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:52.397 and said you know okay the model can 00:02:52.480 --> 00:02:57.037 like generate a co coherent sentence that was really the limit at the time. 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.717 Kind of impressive but like what is this going to what is this going to mean and 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.957 why is why is this going to like matter 00:03:03.040 --> 00:03:04.877 to the economy or society or anything 00:03:04.960 --> 00:03:08.317 else? Um but we had discovered by this 00:03:08.400 --> 00:03:11.917 point these scaling laws which said well if we could you know apply like a 00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.197 trillion dollars of compute to this idea 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:19.277 something quite amazing would happen and people said well you can't apply a 00:03:19.360 --> 00:03:21.677 trillion dollars of compute so it doesn't matter and we sort of said why 00:03:21.760 --> 00:03:25.277 not like let's try 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.037 so 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.237 you've got the idea and and it's moving 00:03:30.320 --> 00:03:33.917 forward but when when does it come 00:03:34.000 --> 00:03:36.957 together that It's really bottling 00:03:37.040 --> 00:03:41.597 knowledge like h how does it 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:43.677 >> different people at openi would give you 00:03:43.760 --> 00:03:45.917 different answers to this but I would 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:48.717 say mo the kind of consensus to the 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:54.920 degree there is one was the time of gpt4 this was like 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.077 I believe this was like March of 2023 00:03:58.160 --> 00:04:02.957 but I may be wrong on the timeline there um we had that model for maybe eight 00:04:03.040 --> 00:04:07.037 months before it launched so we had time internally to really get to know it. And 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.877 that was the time where people even some of the people internally had been 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.757 skeptics of this approach would looked 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.037 at it and said this is going to go very 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:20.637 far. Um and it hasn't been that long 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:22.077 since that moment you know three and a 00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:25.517 half years now. uh and 00:04:25.600 --> 00:04:30.717 and the fact that we now have a system 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:33.517 uh and we're launching our new model soon which is another step forward and 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:38.157 there be many more step forwards coming soon after that. Um but that it is so 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:39.837 capable that it is discovering new 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.877 knowledge doing science able to add huge 00:04:42.960 --> 00:04:45.677 economic value create entire comp pieces 00:04:45.760 --> 00:04:50.317 of complex software. Um this is 00:04:50.400 --> 00:04:54.477 this was like a very crazy moment. I think it hit us. 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.157 Yeah. Over a period of time, but 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.557 centered around this GPT4 period. 00:05:00.640 --> 00:05:04.157 >> So you understand that 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:06.717 you can sort of capture education, 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.597 right? You capture knowledge. Um how how 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:18.440 should the the G20 economies think about this? 00:05:20.080 --> 00:05:23.757 I I don't want to overstate things, but I'm like very excited about our new 00:05:23.840 --> 00:05:25.837 model. So, forgive me if I get a little 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:31.400 bit too enthusiastic here. Um, I 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:36.477 I think this, for example, will be the greatest boom in entrepreneurship and 00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:37.997 the creation and development of small 00:05:38.080 --> 00:05:41.117 businesses um the world has ever seen. 00:05:41.200 --> 00:05:43.757 If you have a great idea, but you didn't 00:05:43.840 --> 00:05:46.717 have the resources or the ability to get 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:51.277 enough capital together or hire enough experts to work on it or to figure out 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.957 what it's going to take to invent a new piece of science or manage a complex 00:05:55.040 --> 00:05:58.077 supply chain, you can do that with AI 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:02.077 now. Um, and I remember after ChatBT 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:06.397 launched, one of the stories that has stuck with me the most from that moment 00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:08.637 was a guy that managed a laundromat. 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.757 Apparently laundromats are usually good businesses. Wouldn't have been obvious 00:06:11.840 --> 00:06:15.597 to me. Apparently they are. Um but this one was not going well. And he was using 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:18.717 chatbt for everything. Um to make his 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:21.677 marketing materials to, you know, manage 00:06:21.760 --> 00:06:26.717 give him advice on legal contracts, to manage like relationships with vendors, 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:29.997 this long list of stuff. He he was really the first person I met that had 00:06:30.080 --> 00:06:33.037 figured out how to use AI to 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:37.517 effectively run a business. And this was amazing to me at the time. Now, I know 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.957 you all have heard stories about this a bunch and it's no longer surprising, but 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:43.837 in 2023, the fact that someone was using 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:48.477 Chat GBT, broken and embarrassing though it was at the time, to let them manage a 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:49.757 business that otherwise they couldn't 00:06:49.840 --> 00:06:52.957 have done was was like quite remarkable. 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.877 Um, in 2025, we saw a real acceleration 00:06:56.960 --> 00:07:02.317 of this with coding agents and and white collar work agents. Um, I think we'll 00:07:02.400 --> 00:07:05.437 see a third thing soon where we'll have these long-term persistent agents that 00:07:05.520 --> 00:07:09.757 can work like a real virtual collaborator constantly helping. But, 00:07:09.840 --> 00:07:12.077 um, 00:07:12.160 --> 00:07:15.117 it it's it's it's amazing to me what is 00:07:15.200 --> 00:07:18.797 happening with the boom in 00:07:18.880 --> 00:07:20.637 entrepreneurship and business creation 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:24.477 because of AI. If I were a country, um, 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.997 you know, many of you are going to take very different approaches to how you 00:07:28.080 --> 00:07:32.157 regulate AI, how you welcome it into your country, how you use it. But for 00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:35.757 sure, I think it is non-negotiable that you have to use it. The economic growth 00:07:35.840 --> 00:07:41.037 and benefit to people that can come from this. Um, the value to a country is too 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:43.997 high to ignore. uh there will be different ways people try to do this but 00:07:44.080 --> 00:07:46.477 this is like you know the smartest 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.997 people in the world uh decided to move 00:07:50.080 --> 00:07:53.357 to your country to learn your language 00:07:53.440 --> 00:07:58.237 um to work very hard on whatever problem you'd like um to go discover new things 00:07:58.320 --> 00:08:02.237 that you need and you can put as much of this to work as you want some of you 00:08:02.320 --> 00:08:05.037 will choose to build data centers some of you will choose to rent data centers 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:07.437 from other people because you don't want them in your country I think all that's 00:08:07.520 --> 00:08:12.237 fine um but we want to help we want to support not 00:08:12.320 --> 00:08:14.157 our company, our whole industry like we 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:19.597 want to bring this incredible magic of, 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:23.997 you know, intelligence in a bottle, education in a bottle um to all of you. 00:08:24.080 --> 00:08:26.237 I think this is like this is an 00:08:26.320 --> 00:08:28.957 incredible moment for the world. What 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:35.117 people can do with this and the economic 00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:37.597 boom that will come with it, the sort of 00:08:37.680 --> 00:08:40.077 individual increased quality of life. 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:44.637 People talk about, you know, medical care and what that means, education, 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:46.797 what that means, services that only very 00:08:46.880 --> 00:08:51.917 rich people used to have access to, now anybody can have with AI. Um, and the 00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:55.677 ability for people to just come up with ideas and get them to fruition so 00:08:55.760 --> 00:08:58.637 quickly, uh, is going to be incredible. 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.117 Do you do you think that um 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:07.597 your company can create the context 00:09:07.680 --> 00:09:11.197 um that people can use to create uh 00:09:11.280 --> 00:09:13.117 their outcomes or do you think there'll 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.557 be an industry sort of surrounding you 00:09:16.640 --> 00:09:20.237 that will contextualize it? Because if you think about it, you say the the 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.437 smartest people in the world move in to my neighborhood and they're willing to 00:09:23.520 --> 00:09:27.437 work for me. But if I don't know what to ask them to do, that's not really a fun 00:09:27.520 --> 00:09:30.557 dinner party having the smartest people in the world sitting with you and they 00:09:30.640 --> 00:09:32.397 can't really have a conversation, right? 00:09:32.480 --> 00:09:35.917 So, how do we how do we think about context? That that's not going to come 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.357 from us and I don't think that should. 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:40.557 Um we are we will provide this this 00:09:40.640 --> 00:09:43.597 engine you know we will provide this 00:09:43.680 --> 00:09:46.397 incredible 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:51.437 commodity of AI that can you can use for whatever you want but the people of the 00:09:51.520 --> 00:09:54.557 world and I have complete trust in the people of the world's creativity and 00:09:54.640 --> 00:09:57.197 ambition um will have to figure out what 00:09:57.280 --> 00:10:00.077 to ask it to do what ideas to to to 00:10:00.160 --> 00:10:04.557 throw this at what what problems and what context in a particular society or 00:10:04.640 --> 00:10:09.197 company is important to understand what to Um so that won't be our role. I don't 00:10:09.280 --> 00:10:13.277 think we'd be good at it even if it were. Um but we will be able to enable 00:10:13.360 --> 00:10:16.157 everyone around the world to bring that context and those questions and those 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:21.037 ideas. So should 00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:22.877 should the governments of the world 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.397 think of AI 00:10:26.480 --> 00:10:30.397 and companies like your company differently 00:10:30.480 --> 00:10:32.557 than they thought about prior 00:10:32.640 --> 00:10:35.757 technology? Meaning the if if what 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:39.997 you're bringing them is, you know, the smartest people in the world, an 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:41.917 educated 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:44.557 capacity, then if they look at that as 00:10:44.640 --> 00:10:48.077 technology and they uh keep it out of 00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:50.557 their country or they constrain it, are 00:10:50.640 --> 00:10:52.957 they are they constraining their 00:10:53.040 --> 00:10:57.880 capacity to think and grow and build? 00:10:58.640 --> 00:11:02.717 >> I am always tempted to say this time is different. This is really special. You 00:11:02.800 --> 00:11:07.597 know, this is and I suspect 00:11:07.680 --> 00:11:09.517 well to zoom out even further than that 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.917 as a kid my understanding of 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.917 the world was that there were these few punctuated moments in history each of 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:21.917 which was a very different thing. You had um the agricultural revolution and 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:25.437 then you had the industrial revolution and then you had the computer revolution 00:11:25.520 --> 00:11:29.597 and these were all completely different unrelated things and there were not that 00:11:29.680 --> 00:11:33.757 many lessons to learn from them and they were best understood in isolation and 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:35.597 even if you zoomed into one pick the 00:11:35.680 --> 00:11:37.917 industrial revolution um the right way 00:11:38.000 --> 00:11:42.077 to understand that was um 20 or 30 00:11:42.160 --> 00:11:45.357 important pieces of technology that were all developed over a period of a couple 00:11:45.440 --> 00:11:46.797 hundred years that came together in this 00:11:46.880 --> 00:11:50.077 important way. uh 00:11:50.160 --> 00:11:53.197 as an adult I look at it as you know it 00:11:53.280 --> 00:11:57.277 has been a single revolution a single exponential of technology each 00:11:57.360 --> 00:12:01.357 generation has built on the scaffolding of the generations before put a new 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:04.957 brick in place people have been able to see or layer of scaffolding to stick 00:12:05.040 --> 00:12:07.837 with the analogy people have been able to climb and see a little higher and do 00:12:07.920 --> 00:12:12.637 the new thing um if you think about what it took to get us to this point where we 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:16.797 can build AI um it was all of those previous revolutions uh stacked together 00:12:16.880 --> 00:12:21.357 and it was the collective discovery of science throughout society 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:23.117 and the global economy that we all 00:12:23.200 --> 00:12:26.077 contribute to that made this incredible 00:12:26.160 --> 00:12:31.277 thing possible and now happen. And it is tempting whenever you're in the 00:12:31.360 --> 00:12:33.597 moment to say this is the last revolution. This is the biggest 00:12:33.680 --> 00:12:37.197 revolution. There will be more after this. There will be uh bigger things 00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:40.557 after this. People will use AI to invent whatever thing that comes next. It's 00:12:40.640 --> 00:12:42.077 probably very difficult for us to 00:12:42.160 --> 00:12:46.557 imagine right now. Um and 00:12:46.640 --> 00:12:51.117 and I think the right answer is to look at the history of technology as one 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.397 continuous exponential. The history of the economy and society as one 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.717 continuous exponential. Um and I really mean that. It's not just the technology. 00:12:58.800 --> 00:13:02.557 It's this social fabric and the kind of complex structure 00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:05.517 of the world that allows this technology to flourish and people to figure out 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:10.077 what to do with it. And you have to embrace it continuously all the way 00:13:10.160 --> 00:13:13.277 through. if you miss out on any part of it, um you're not ready for the next 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.557 thing that will come if you if you 00:13:16.640 --> 00:13:20.637 don't enable your people and your businesses with AI, uh they will not 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:24.077 invent the next level of the scaffolding. But there will be more 00:13:24.160 --> 00:13:28.157 things and I think it is tempting to say this one is different and it clearly is 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.637 really important. Um but I would view it as a continuum. 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:34.477 >> So 00:13:34.560 --> 00:13:37.597 we all read about the the various 00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:40.637 companies at the frontier. Can you can 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:42.637 you sort of differentiate them for us? 00:13:42.720 --> 00:13:45.197 What what do you what do you view Open 00:13:45.280 --> 00:13:48.557 AI as best at? What what's the you know 00:13:48.640 --> 00:13:51.517 your DNA if you will that separates you 00:13:51.600 --> 00:13:55.597 from the others and and what are you great at? And just give us that sort of 00:13:55.680 --> 00:14:01.277 from your perspective. Um 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:03.917 I think from a from what matters to this 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:06.957 room um we are the pragmatic centrists. 00:14:07.040 --> 00:14:12.797 We we realize like we want to be We want to be accurate in how we talk 00:14:12.880 --> 00:14:14.957 about what we see in the future. We don't want to fall into the trap of 00:14:15.040 --> 00:14:18.397 blind optimism. We don't want to fall into the trap of doomerism. This is 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.077 clearly complex. There's clearly a combination of both excitement and 00:14:22.160 --> 00:14:24.797 anxiety of transformation and risks that 00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:29.757 the world has to navigate. Um but 00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.237 by getting pulled into either extreme, 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:33.837 we are not going to successfully figure 00:14:33.920 --> 00:14:36.797 out the challenges in front of us. Um we 00:14:36.880 --> 00:14:41.677 want to be a reliable partner. uh we want like we really do view what we are 00:14:41.760 --> 00:14:45.437 doing as a platform as a service to the world. We realize that different people 00:14:45.520 --> 00:14:49.997 around the world are going to use it very differently and we want to put 00:14:50.080 --> 00:14:54.877 sufficient constraints on our system to avoid catastrophic risks but we really 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.757 do want to respect all of your sovereignty and that you're going to use 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.997 it in very different ways and we personally may not always like it. Um 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:06.397 but I don't like everything that people do with electricity either and I still 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:07.837 think everybody should get to have it. 00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:11.880 Um, so, 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:16.717 oh, and then also I would say like we want the whole global economy to 00:15:16.800 --> 00:15:20.557 succeed. We do not want to be the only company. Um, we do not want to suck up 00:15:20.640 --> 00:15:23.837 all the value. We do not think that is good for global stability, nor do we 00:15:23.920 --> 00:15:27.037 think that's possible for the way that people need to flourish and people need 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.157 to stay at the center of this. Oh, I'll get to that one more thing after this. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.477 Um and we want to like enable every 00:15:34.560 --> 00:15:38.077 entrepreneur, every government, every big company in the world to thrive with 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:42.157 this technology. Uh the last thing I'll say that I think differentiates us from 00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:45.757 some of the other companies is we are very firmly and very proudly on team 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:48.317 humanity. Um we would like to build 00:15:48.400 --> 00:15:50.237 tools for people. We would like people's 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.357 lives to be better. Um we think that 00:15:53.440 --> 00:15:56.717 people need to be at the center of the 00:15:56.800 --> 00:15:58.957 economy and society and global 00:15:59.040 --> 00:16:02.077 decision-m um and that people should run 00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:04.237 the future in AI. 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:09.277 >> So it it seems that entrepreneurship 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.677 should be really the fire starter of all 00:16:11.760 --> 00:16:14.477 this, right? You're are you the you know 00:16:14.560 --> 00:16:16.957 the the kindling of it? I mean maybe 00:16:17.040 --> 00:16:20.157 sort of tell me how entrepreneurship and 00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:24.637 and uh open AI sort of work together. 00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:26.957 >> Before open AI I used to run a startup 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:32.637 accelerator and I had always been interested not always after I came to 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.077 college I'd always been interested in entrepreneurship and then having had 00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:38.157 this incredible front row seat I really 00:16:38.240 --> 00:16:40.957 became convinced that 00:16:41.040 --> 00:16:43.437 entrepreneurship was 00:16:43.520 --> 00:16:45.997 maybe the most important 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:48.797 novel force in all of capitalism. Um, 00:16:48.880 --> 00:16:52.717 and I fell in love with it and 00:16:52.800 --> 00:16:55.517 watching what new companies were able to 00:16:55.600 --> 00:16:59.677 do and watching how 00:16:59.760 --> 00:17:03.997 large of a percentage of the new ideas that mattered in the tech industry over 00:17:04.080 --> 00:17:07.517 the last, you know, 20 years or whatever came from startups and not big 00:17:07.600 --> 00:17:10.557 companies. Um, now having seen this in 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:12.477 other industries, I am a huge believer 00:17:12.560 --> 00:17:17.880 in entrepreneurship. I also think that, 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.637 you know, like I talked to a lot of people around the world and they would 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.677 much rather run a great lifestyle business than go work as like a 00:17:23.760 --> 00:17:27.197 corporate cog. And I think that's great, too. Like I think that's just we should 00:17:27.280 --> 00:17:30.317 enable that. Um, one of the things I got 00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:34.237 excited about early with AI, of course AI is going to transform big companies 00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:35.677 and of course AI is going to transform 00:17:35.760 --> 00:17:39.757 governments, but what AI can do 00:17:39.840 --> 00:17:42.717 for entrepreneurs and for people that 00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:45.277 want to take an idea and bring it into 00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:49.997 the world quickly um is really quite amazing. When I was running the startup 00:17:50.080 --> 00:17:53.357 accelerator, it lasted for three months and the work that 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:57.277 >> it lasted for three months. You were in it for three months and the work that we 00:17:57.360 --> 00:17:59.117 expected a startup to accomplish in 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.597 three months is now probably doable in 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.197 like 17 minutes with codeex. 00:18:05.280 --> 00:18:08.877 This is just amazing. The world is not caught up with what this is going to 00:18:08.960 --> 00:18:13.757 mean. Not just for the economic value that gets created from that, but how 00:18:13.840 --> 00:18:17.037 quickly people can test ideas, build things, get feedback from real 00:18:17.120 --> 00:18:18.077 customers. We're all just going to get 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.637 much better stuff. 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:24.237 So, you use the term uh I want to sort 00:18:24.320 --> 00:18:28.317 of flush it out a bit a bit, non-negotiable. 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.037 Can you maybe uh help everybody 00:18:31.120 --> 00:18:33.357 understand what you mean about that and 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:35.997 and what that means for each of uh our 00:18:36.080 --> 00:18:40.520 partner ministers who are here today? 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:44.557 >> Again, I'm biased. I'm trying to talk my 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:47.117 book here. Forgive me for this analogy. 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.637 Um, I think it would be approximately as 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:55.117 bad of an idea to say we're not going to have AI in our country as it was to say 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.397 we're not going to have electricity in our country, you know, back 100 plus 00:18:58.480 --> 00:19:02.477 years ago. I think this is something at that level. Um, this is something that 00:19:02.560 --> 00:19:05.117 every person and every business and 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:07.277 really the entire 00:19:07.360 --> 00:19:10.797 machine of society is going to need to 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.997 deliver the quality of life that your 00:19:14.080 --> 00:19:18.717 citizens should demand. Now, electricity also came with some 00:19:18.800 --> 00:19:22.077 complexities and it took a little while for us to figure out how to make it 00:19:22.160 --> 00:19:25.837 safe, but we made fairly rapid progress as a society to make it generally pretty 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.557 safe even though it can do a lot of bad things. Um, and at this point, we barely 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.837 think about electricity. You know, we turn these lights on, we expect them to 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.677 work. You know, if this the power shut off and I had to scream because this 00:19:37.760 --> 00:19:42.237 microphone was not working, like I would be annoyed about that. You I won't go 00:19:42.320 --> 00:19:44.717 through all the examples. I see all the phones on the table. like you just it 00:19:44.800 --> 00:19:48.397 would be hard for society to function well without electricity at this point. 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.757 But we don't think about it much. We think about, you know, there's light at 00:19:51.840 --> 00:19:55.357 night. That's great. We can hear these people speak in the room without them 00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:57.837 having to yell. That's nice. Our phones can do these amazing things for us. We 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.957 care about our phones. We don't think too much about the electricity that gets 00:20:01.040 --> 00:20:03.677 generated to power them. Um, and I think 00:20:03.760 --> 00:20:04.877 the same thing is going to happen with 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:08.397 AI. We won't, my prediction is we won't 00:20:08.480 --> 00:20:11.197 be talking about AI as much as we do in 00:20:11.280 --> 00:20:16.397 a decade from now because we'll just expect it everywhere. You know, like a 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:21.757 kid growing up today will never be smarter than AI, but he or she will also 00:20:21.840 --> 00:20:25.997 never have understood a world where every 00:20:26.080 --> 00:20:29.757 product and service that they interact with is not really smart and really 00:20:29.840 --> 00:20:33.997 capable and really helpful. And because we'll just be so used to that, we won't 00:20:34.080 --> 00:20:37.277 think about the AI. will just be like, "Yeah, I want my products to be good." 00:20:37.360 --> 00:20:40.557 You know, if I have an idea, I want to be able to like make it right away. I 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:44.157 want this software to be created instantly for me. Um, if I have a 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:45.837 disease, like I expect a cure to get 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:51.277 discovered very quickly. Uh, so I think countries need to need to embrace this. 00:20:51.360 --> 00:20:52.557 Again, there's many ways to do it. 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:56.077 People will set different rules. People will decide on what they want to build 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:58.397 versus rent, but I think everyone will 00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.677 need the this new commodity. 00:21:01.760 --> 00:21:06.237 If um if we look forward five years and 00:21:06.320 --> 00:21:11.037 and we come back to North Carolina alto together um 00:21:11.120 --> 00:21:16.840 what what will be holding us back do you think in your opinion? 00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:21.597 >> Well there are clearly challenges that 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.837 we have to get right along the way. 00:21:23.920 --> 00:21:28.637 There will be specifics. For example I'm sure cyber security is a top-of- mind 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:32.397 issue for many of you. Uh we work with many of the governments in the room. Uh 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:33.837 we work with the state of North 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.237 Carolina. Uh we work with companies big 00:21:36.320 --> 00:21:40.637 and small and we are 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:45.037 I think we have a big challenge in front of us like to not to not try to sidestep 00:21:45.120 --> 00:21:48.877 this one. I think some things are going to go very wrong with cyber security 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.197 unless people act quite urgently. There will be other challenges in the next 00:21:53.280 --> 00:21:56.397 five years. People talk about uh biocurity and the the things we're going 00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:59.997 to face there. um 00:22:00.080 --> 00:22:01.917 there will be bigger ones yet to come 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:03.837 and I think if we don't successfully 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.037 navigate those um 00:22:07.120 --> 00:22:09.037 society will not be able to adopt AI to 00:22:09.120 --> 00:22:12.477 the degree or to the speed with which 00:22:12.560 --> 00:22:15.677 people deserve. So getting 00:22:15.760 --> 00:22:19.837 successfully navigating the risks and downsides in front of us is something 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.517 that could go very wrong and I think will set this technology back could set 00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:26.797 this technology back a great deal. Um, 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:28.237 another thing that could go wrong is too 00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:33.037 much concentration of power. Um, 00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:38.397 AI should be in many ways AI should be an equalizing force in the world. You 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.437 talked about what it means to have like a reset on the educational capacity 00:22:41.520 --> 00:22:44.957 available to everybody. Um, you can also 00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:49.437 see worlds where AI concentrates because 00:22:49.520 --> 00:22:53.037 some people make early investments and others don't and there's, you know, bad 00:22:53.120 --> 00:22:56.957 inequities with comput or whatever. uh that'd be bad. So I think if we fail to 00:22:57.040 --> 00:23:01.757 make AI abundant, it ends up being something that is very hotly competed 00:23:01.840 --> 00:23:03.917 over. Rich people spend a huge amount of 00:23:04.000 --> 00:23:08.717 money on and um 00:23:08.800 --> 00:23:12.957 that would be a bad outcome. So I think we need to make it abundant so that we 00:23:13.040 --> 00:23:16.957 get the the benefits of lifting everybody up and not much worsening 00:23:17.040 --> 00:23:20.157 inequality. >> Right. As you said, if if the smartest 00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:22.397 people in the world learned your 00:23:22.480 --> 00:23:24.717 language and all agreed to move to your 00:23:24.800 --> 00:23:27.357 country and work on whatever you wanted 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.157 them to work on, that that has to be the 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:35.277 most incredible thing. Do you think that 00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:38.957 since you'll have all the smartest people speaking all those languages, 00:23:39.040 --> 00:23:40.717 can't they figure out a way do you think 00:23:40.800 --> 00:23:43.677 over time to deliver the same amount of 00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:47.197 compute more inexpensively without the 00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:51.997 same use of power without the same I mean aren't these the kind of things 00:23:52.080 --> 00:23:53.997 >> absolutely >> that are going to happen that will 00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:57.597 democratize it by sort of by itself in a way 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:00.717 >> it it will still require huge investment 00:24:00.800 --> 00:24:05.117 but yes we will continue to make things vastly more efficient and we'll figure 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:08.637 out how to make more and better chips and we'll figure out how to make smarter 00:24:08.720 --> 00:24:12.797 algorithms. All of that will happen. But to put some numbers on the magnitude of 00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:15.997 how much we we need this to happen, again, I know these numbers in front of 00:24:16.080 --> 00:24:19.517 me. I'm not going to get this exactly right. Um but forgive me for the 00:24:19.600 --> 00:24:23.917 approximation. At the beginning of 2020, um the token 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.997 leader in the world was an OpenAI employee using roughly a 100,000 tokens 00:24:28.080 --> 00:24:30.157 a month. 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:33.517 Um, in the middle of 2026, 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:37.917 the token leader that I know of, there may be somebody using more than this at 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:40.397 outside of OpenAI, um, was using 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.197 hundreds of billions of tokens a month. 00:24:43.280 --> 00:24:48.077 So, you know, a multi-millionx increase in six and a half years. And the average 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:51.917 person on Earth had gone from using effectively zero tokens to 100,000 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:55.357 tokens a month. That was the global per capita thing. 00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.477 If we just naively project this forward again, which seems like a reasonable 00:24:58.560 --> 00:25:03.997 thing to do to me. Um, and I hate tokens as a unit here. It's a dumb one. No one 00:25:04.080 --> 00:25:07.357 should care, but like let's just take that as shorthand for amount of 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:10.557 intelligence. Then 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:14.797 in another six and a half years, the average per capita use of tokens will go 00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:19.437 up to, let's round it down to 100 billion tokens a month. And the person 00:25:19.520 --> 00:25:23.837 using the most in the world will be using 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:29.517 you know a 100 quadrillion tokens a month uh or one quadrillion 100 trillion 00:25:29.600 --> 00:25:32.157 like >> no I was right 100 trillion tokens a 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:35.677 month 100 quadrillion tokens a month um 00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:41.037 even with great gains on efficiency we are going to need to build much more 00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:45.357 infrastructure unless we want this to be a highly 00:25:45.440 --> 00:25:48.397 priced commodity which we don't we want this to be abund on it. We want this to 00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:51.997 be inexpensive. We want people to just be able to use this for whatever they need. 00:25:52.080 --> 00:25:54.957 >> So that's the driving force. If we 00:25:55.040 --> 00:25:58.717 if we globally can build enough 00:25:58.800 --> 00:26:01.357 then it will intelligence will be 00:26:01.440 --> 00:26:03.437 broadly distributed 00:26:03.520 --> 00:26:06.557 uh more democratized across the world. 00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.237 Uh the world will be educated or they'll 00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:14.237 have the access to education. Is that 00:26:14.320 --> 00:26:16.237 >> to to go back to the analogy of 00:26:16.320 --> 00:26:19.117 electricity? Um, there's this amazing 00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:22.557 chart of what it cost to have an hour of 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:27.677 light at night. And there was a time, one of the 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:32.557 earliest data points you can find is that it it took an average of 5 hours of 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:34.637 labor at the wage at the time to be able 00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:38.237 to pay for one hour of light at night. 00:26:38.320 --> 00:26:42.237 Electricity came along, it fell. We figured out how to make more 00:26:42.320 --> 00:26:45.357 electricity. So, there was like, you know, the supply and demand change 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:50.397 curve. It fell again. We figured out how to make vastly more efficient light 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:54.237 bulbs. We went from incandescent lights to LEDs. A whole bunch of other things 00:26:54.320 --> 00:26:57.117 happened and now an hour of light at 00:26:57.200 --> 00:27:01.277 night is not something that people think of at all about the cost. I don't even 00:27:01.360 --> 00:27:04.157 know what the number is, but someone in here can do it. It's it's like very 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:06.077 cheap to run, you know, a five watt bulb 00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:10.477 for an hour. Um the 00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:13.997 if that hadn't happened if we and all of those things together had to happen lots 00:27:14.080 --> 00:27:16.877 of electricity generation huge innovation on the efficiency all of 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:21.917 these things. If that hadn't happened then rich people get light at night and 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:24.557 they can study more they have a compounding effect they can learn more 00:27:24.640 --> 00:27:27.197 whatever and and you know poor people 00:27:27.280 --> 00:27:31.677 don't. So I think it's been very good that energy has become abundant and that 00:27:31.760 --> 00:27:33.917 light at night has become relatively 00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:37.517 like shockingly inexpensive. Um, if that 00:27:37.600 --> 00:27:39.997 same thing happens with AI and anybody 00:27:40.080 --> 00:27:41.917 on earth, rich, poor, whatever, can use 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:47.197 AI to get the abundant services that they need and to express their ideas and 00:27:47.280 --> 00:27:51.357 to start their businesses and whatever else. And we fulfill our mission of 00:27:51.440 --> 00:27:56.237 making AI so inexpensive and so smart that people are just like they think 00:27:56.320 --> 00:27:59.597 about it like they think of the cost of an hour at night of light at night. I 00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.197 think that'd be really wonderful. And then this huge reset and democratization 00:28:03.280 --> 00:28:05.677 of education you're talking about can happen. 00:28:05.760 --> 00:28:09.997 So are you you know there are look there 00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:12.557 are doomers out there who worry about 00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:15.277 everything but we know that if you look 00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:17.117 back through the industrial re as you 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:19.677 said it it always seems to work out 00:28:19.760 --> 00:28:22.557 fine. Are you uh fundamentally 00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:25.277 optimistic to what your products will do 00:28:25.360 --> 00:28:28.797 to the world and will serve the world? 00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:30.557 I I think part of the reason it tends to 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.477 work out fine is people worry and they 00:28:34.560 --> 00:28:37.597 stress and they look at the downsides and they try to address those and they 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:40.477 try to learn how we avoid accidents. So 00:28:40.560 --> 00:28:43.197 if we go back to an early example even 00:28:43.280 --> 00:28:45.597 before electricity of a technology fire 00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:50.477 was incredible incredible for human evolution incredible for letting us cook 00:28:50.560 --> 00:28:53.757 our food and heat our homes at night and whatever else. It also burnt down whole 00:28:53.840 --> 00:28:57.037 cities a few times and people really 00:28:57.120 --> 00:28:58.317 worried about that because we don't want 00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:00.797 cities to burn down and we figured out 00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:05.277 fire safety and through a lot of human 00:29:05.360 --> 00:29:07.277 ingenuity um through a lot of good 00:29:07.360 --> 00:29:09.597 policy definitely through learning from 00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:14.397 some very bad accidents we figured out how to make it safer. Now had we just 00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.837 said like yeah you know some cities are going to burn down whatever we got other 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.717 problems to work on probably wouldn't have figured that out and that wouldn't 00:29:20.800 --> 00:29:24.717 have been as good. Um, so I think worry 00:29:24.800 --> 00:29:28.077 is warranted. Worry is how we anticipate 00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:32.637 problems and how we from a matter of policy and a matter of technology figure 00:29:32.720 --> 00:29:36.157 out how to address them. But I am optimistic that we can mitigate the 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.797 downsides of this technology. And if you look at what's happened, you know, if 00:29:40.880 --> 00:29:44.397 you look at what the doomers were saying 5 years ago about the chances of us 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.877 being able to make AI of this level, of this sort of near human, sometimes 00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.917 superhuman capacity level, you know, broadly considered safe and reliable. 00:29:54.000 --> 00:29:55.277 Not perfect. There have been accidents. 00:29:55.360 --> 00:29:58.557 There will be accidents, of course. I don't think most people would have 00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:00.477 thought it was going to go this well as 00:30:00.560 --> 00:30:04.157 it has so far. And I I believe in human 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:08.797 ingenuity and the ability for to solve very difficult, very complex 00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:11.997 problems. And I think I think we'll keep doing that. 00:30:12.080 --> 00:30:15.117 And I think the economic value and the 00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:20.317 personal value is so huge. Um I met with someone just this morning and told and 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:23.437 again I'm sure you've all heard stories like this that they wouldn't be alive 00:30:23.520 --> 00:30:26.477 without Chachi PT um and that they had a 00:30:26.560 --> 00:30:30.557 very difficult disease and you know got a diagnosis that doctors weren't able to 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:32.237 >> give them. We shouldn't take that away. 00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:35.437 >> Yeah. But we need to figure out how to make the technology safe so that people 00:30:35.520 --> 00:30:39.757 can have more of that. >> Great. So Sam, thank you for joining us. 00:30:39.840 --> 00:30:41.197 It was really an incredible 00:30:41.280 --> 00:30:46.317 conversation. Um 2:00, so 2 p.m. in the 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.837 ministerial room where we will have uh 00:30:49.920 --> 00:30:54.077 Alex Karp will be our next guest uh speaking to us. 00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:57.197 >> He's a good one. >> He's a good one. But uh 00:30:57.280 --> 00:31:00.797 >> thank you Sam for joining us. We we really appreciate it. Thank you. 00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:05.160 [applause] Thanks.