WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.557 So, Dario, we're at Davos. There's a lot going on, 00:00:04.640 --> 00:00:11.080 but I wanted to start with a a big picture question, which I'll characterize like 00:00:12.360 --> 00:00:17.400 this. It feels to me that the 00:00:22.200 --> 00:00:25.437 Time last year, everybody was very excited about AI, and everyone was 00:00:25.520 --> 00:00:30.400 talking about what AI can do, its potential, 00:00:30.880 --> 00:00:33.477 its capabilities. It feels to me as 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:35.157 though the debate has shifted somewhat 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:37.917 this year to be more less what can AI do 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.237 to what is AI doing to the world. 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:44.997 Um and I I know that you think a lot about these things. So, my question is, 00:00:45.080 --> 00:00:48.000 do you think business 00:00:49.760 --> 00:00:54.840 is policy makers, governments, whatever, are doing enough 00:00:56.400 --> 00:00:58.877 to prepare for the impact? >> No. 00:00:58.960 --> 00:01:00.197 Um 00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:03.557 I'll explain the longer version now. Um 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:06.037 you know, I've been watching this field 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.397 for 15 years, and I've been in this 00:01:08.480 --> 00:01:11.117 field for 10 years. And and one of the 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.597 things I've most noticed is that there's been 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:17.797 the the actual trajectory of the field 00:01:17.880 --> 00:01:20.397 has been surprisingly 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:24.397 on on a a you know, the same trajectory. 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:28.037 Whereas the kind of public opinion and the reaction of the public has 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:32.157 oscillated wildly. I would say that in in in two different ways. One is the 00:01:32.240 --> 00:01:34.917 capabilities of the technology. Every 3 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:40.157 to 6 months, we have this reversal of of polarity, where the media is incredibly 00:01:40.240 --> 00:01:43.757 excited about what the technology can do, it's going to change everything, and 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:47.117 then it's you know, it's all a bubble, it's all it's all going to fall apart. 00:01:47.200 --> 00:01:52.077 And and what I see is this smooth exponential line where similar to 00:01:52.160 --> 00:01:56.037 Moore's law for compute, we basically have a Moore's law for intelligence, 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.157 where the model is getting more and more cognitively capable every every few 00:02:00.240 --> 00:02:04.637 months. And that that march has just been constant. The up and down, the we 00:02:04.720 --> 00:02:06.477 invented a new thing, it's all going to 00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:08.837 crash, it's hitting a wall, it's it's 00:02:08.920 --> 00:02:12.117 going to go crazy. That that is a public 00:02:12.200 --> 00:02:16.637 perception phenomenon. That's on the capability of the technology. I think 00:02:16.720 --> 00:02:20.477 there's a similar thing on the polarity of whether the technology is good or 00:02:20.560 --> 00:02:22.517 bad. Um 00:02:22.600 --> 00:02:27.437 uh you know, in 2023 and 2024, there was 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:31.997 a lot of concern about AI, right? There was, you know, concern AI you know, AI's 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:33.877 going to AI's are going to take over. 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.397 There was a lot of talk about AI risk, 00:02:36.480 --> 00:02:40.037 AI misuse. Then in 2025, the political 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:42.997 wind shifted, as you say, to AI 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:47.517 opportunity. And now they're sort of shifting back. And and I think 00:02:47.600 --> 00:02:52.357 throughout throughout all of this, the the approach that I have tried to take 00:02:52.440 --> 00:02:56.557 and the approach that Anthropic has tried to take is is is one of constancy, 00:02:56.640 --> 00:02:59.077 of saying that there is balance here. 00:02:59.160 --> 00:03:01.677 Uh and and uh balance of a very strange 00:03:01.760 --> 00:03:04.197 form, because I think the technology is 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.357 very extreme in in what it's capable of 00:03:07.440 --> 00:03:11.357 doing. But I think its positive impacts and its negative impacts that, you know, 00:03:11.440 --> 00:03:15.437 they they both exist, right? I wrote this essay Machines of Loving Grace 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:19.077 about a year and a half ago. It had a very radical view of the upside of AI, 00:03:19.160 --> 00:03:23.717 that you know, it would it would help us to, you know, cure cancer, eradicate 00:03:23.800 --> 00:03:28.597 tropical diseases, you know, kind of bring bring economic development to, you 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:32.357 know, parts of the world that haven't seen it. And I my view hasn't changed. I 00:03:32.440 --> 00:03:34.557 believe all of those things. Um 00:03:34.640 --> 00:03:39.917 but the the other side of it, which, you know, I'm I'm I'm now uh uh 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:43.477 you know, kind of writing writing more about and and what you know, may may 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.677 release something about soon, is yeah, 00:03:46.760 --> 00:03:50.917 there you know, bad things will happen as well. If we just take just for an 00:03:51.000 --> 00:03:56.000 example as as one of the risks, we take the economic 00:03:56.920 --> 00:03:58.797 side of it. Um 00:03:58.880 --> 00:04:01.517 my my view is the signature of this 00:04:01.600 --> 00:04:07.920 technology is it's going to take us to a world where we have very 00:04:21.760 --> 00:04:25.397 high GDP growth and potentially also 00:04:25.480 --> 00:04:28.717 very high unemployment and inequality. 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:32.077 Now, that's not a combination we've we've almost ever seen before, right? 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:36.477 You think of it as high GDP growth, that's lots of stuff to do, lots of jobs 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:39.837 for everyone. It's always been like that in the past. We've never had a 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:42.357 technology that's this disruptive. So, 00:04:42.440 --> 00:04:45.557 the idea that we could have 5 or 10% GDP 00:04:45.640 --> 00:04:50.437 growth, but also, you know, 10 10% unemployment, it's it's not logically 00:04:50.520 --> 00:04:52.437 inconsistent at all. It's just never 00:04:52.520 --> 00:04:55.037 happened that that that that way before. 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.877 And I'm I'm really quite uh you know, 00:04:57.960 --> 00:04:59.877 for those both reasons, excited and 00:04:59.960 --> 00:05:02.237 worried. If I take an example, something 00:05:02.320 --> 00:05:05.157 like AI coding, um 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:07.237 you know, the latest model we released, 00:05:07.320 --> 00:05:11.717 Claude Opus 4.5, um I have some 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:14.117 uh uh engineers, some engineering leads 00:05:14.200 --> 00:05:17.557 within Anthropic who have basically said 00:05:17.640 --> 00:05:22.397 to me, I don't write any code anymore. I I you know, I just let Opus do the work 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:25.997 and I edit it. We just released a new thing called Claude co-work. We can go 00:05:26.080 --> 00:05:28.117 into go you know, we can go into that 00:05:28.200 --> 00:05:30.877 later, but this was a a version of our 00:05:30.960 --> 00:05:35.317 tool, Claude code, for non-coding. This was built in a week and a half, almost 00:05:35.400 --> 00:05:39.197 entirely with Claude Opus. There's still things for the software engineers to do, 00:05:39.280 --> 00:05:43.357 right? It's like, even if the software engineers are only doing 10% of it, they 00:05:43.440 --> 00:05:46.917 can you know, they still have a job to do, or they can take a level up. That's 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.317 not going to last forever. The models are going to do more and more. And so 00:05:51.400 --> 00:05:54.437 there's an incredible This is a microcosm. You can see there's an 00:05:54.520 --> 00:05:56.477 incredible amount of productivity here. 00:05:56.560 --> 00:05:58.797 Software is going to become cheap, maybe 00:05:58.880 --> 00:06:02.157 essentially free. The premise that you 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:08.760 need to amortize a piece of software you build across millions of users 00:06:20.960 --> 00:06:25.640 that may start to be false. Like for the 00:06:55.280 --> 00:06:59.597 meaning it might cost a few cents to just say, I don't know, let's let's 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.197 let's make some app so people can talk to each other or everything, you know, I 00:07:03.280 --> 00:07:05.157 it just it it it just may be very 00:07:05.240 --> 00:07:07.717 flexible and recyclable. But but at the 00:07:07.800 --> 00:07:10.357 same time there are whole jobs, whole 00:07:10.440 --> 00:07:14.997 careers that we built built for decades that that may not be be present. And you 00:07:15.080 --> 00:07:19.037 know, I I think we can deal with it. I think we can we can adjust to it, but I 00:07:19.120 --> 00:07:23.797 don't I don't think there's an an awareness at all of what of what is 00:07:23.880 --> 00:07:25.957 coming here and the magnitude of it. 00:07:26.040 --> 00:07:30.197 >> So how that's it's so interesting when you say that. So how do you think in a 00:07:30.280 --> 00:07:34.037 world of of high GDP growth but also high 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.517 unemployment, you know, what does that do to society? And you say there are, 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.637 you know, people aren't thinking about it now. Can you give concrete examples 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:45.117 of how society might organize itself to adapt to such a world. 00:07:45.200 --> 00:07:49.317 >> Yeah. So, you know, I think I think there's a few things. The The first 00:07:49.400 --> 00:07:51.717 thing that that we've done that we've 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:56.597 focused on, and this is not a solution so much as it is a first step, is we 00:07:56.680 --> 00:08:00.117 have this thing called the Anthropic Economic Index. We've had it for about a 00:08:00.200 --> 00:08:03.717 year. We've updated it I think four or five times now. 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:05.837 Uh and what that does is is a real-time 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:11.357 index that lets you track, um you know, what our model Claude is being 00:08:11.440 --> 00:08:14.597 used for. It goes across all the conversations and kind of uses Claude in 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:17.557 a privacy-preserving way to, you know, 00:08:17.640 --> 00:08:21.637 kind of kind of statistically query how Claude is being used. What are the tasks 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:23.557 it's being used for? To what extent it 00:08:23.640 --> 00:08:26.877 is Is it automating versus augmenting 00:08:26.960 --> 00:08:31.357 tasks? Um what industries is it being used in? How is it diffusing across 00:08:31.440 --> 00:08:35.197 states in the United States and countries countries in the world? We've 00:08:35.280 --> 00:08:39.277 We've just added kind of more and more detail here. And And And my view is 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:44.237 until we can measure the shape of this economic transition, any policy is going 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.077 to be blind and and misinformed, right? 00:08:46.160 --> 00:08:49.037 Many many policies have gone wrong because they're they're based on 00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:53.277 premises that are that are fundamentally incorrect. So, so that's that's step 00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:55.797 one. Step two is I think we need to 00:08:55.880 --> 00:09:00.477 think very carefully about how do we allow people to adapt, right? People can 00:09:00.560 --> 00:09:02.797 adapt more quickly or they can adapt 00:09:02.880 --> 00:09:05.397 more slowly. This can mean adapting to 00:09:05.480 --> 00:09:08.077 use the technology within existing jobs. 00:09:08.160 --> 00:09:11.317 This can mean adapting, you know, from 00:09:11.400 --> 00:09:15.437 one job to another job. For example, I think there are probably going to be 00:09:15.520 --> 00:09:20.477 more jobs in the physical world and less jobs in the knowledge work economy. Now, 00:09:20.560 --> 00:09:24.477 maybe eventually robotics, you know, makes progress, but I think that's on a 00:09:24.560 --> 00:09:29.317 that's on a slower trajectory. So So that's one. Are there jobs that have, 00:09:29.400 --> 00:09:33.717 you know, still kind of, you know, really value a human touch? Um some of 00:09:33.800 --> 00:09:37.557 them do, some of them don't. We may find out how important how important that is 00:09:37.640 --> 00:09:41.477 in the market and where it's most important. At the level of companies, 00:09:41.560 --> 00:09:45.397 what are the moats when software becomes cheap and then subsequently the rest of 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.877 knowledge work becomes cheap. We don't know. We've never quite asked that 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.037 question. We thought about moats in a certain way. So, there's there's going 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.237 to be a huge scramble at the level of at the level of companies. So, you know, 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.957 teaching people to adapt, teaching them what to expect, I think is the second 00:10:00.040 --> 00:10:03.117 step. And and the third step is I think 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:05.637 there's there's going to need to be some 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.397 government in in the displacement that's 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:12.677 that's this macroeconomically large. I just I just don't see how I don't see 00:10:12.760 --> 00:10:16.997 how it doesn't happen. The pie is going to grow much larger, right? Like the 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:20.397 money is going to be there. Like, you know, it may you know, the budget may 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.797 balance without us doing anything because there's so much growth. Um uh 00:10:24.880 --> 00:10:28.757 the issue is distributing it to the right people. And so and so I think I 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.637 think this is probably a time to worry less about disincentivizing growth and 00:10:32.720 --> 00:10:37.677 and worry more about making making sure that everyone gets gets gets a part of 00:10:37.760 --> 00:10:40.797 that growth. Um which which, you know, which I know is the opposite of the 00:10:40.880 --> 00:10:45.677 prevailing sentiment now, but I think technological reality is about to change 00:10:45.760 --> 00:10:47.997 in a way that forces our ideas to change. 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:51.157 >> So, obviously, in your in your desire [snorts] to create this greater sense of 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:54.957 urgency, are you speaking to people in the administration? I mean, Anthropic 00:10:55.040 --> 00:10:58.557 hasn't always been the sort of first on the guest list for this administration, 00:10:58.640 --> 00:11:00.917 but you do you have people there that you're talking to? 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:03.357 >> I I've I I I I have said it to them 00:11:03.440 --> 00:11:06.997 myself. Um uh and, you know, to to be 00:11:07.080 --> 00:11:10.957 clear, there are plenty of things there are plenty of things we agree on, right? 00:11:11.040 --> 00:11:13.157 You know, I think the AI action plan 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:15.877 that the administration put out in the 00:11:15.960 --> 00:11:20.477 middle of this year actually had some some, you know, some very good ideas 00:11:20.560 --> 00:11:24.037 here. You know, I think I think, you know, we probably probably agreed with 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:28.877 the vast vast majority of it. But I think most of all, we just want to say 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:32.557 these things in public and kind of ha and kind of have a public debate about 00:11:32.640 --> 00:11:34.077 them, right? We don't we don't control 00:11:34.160 --> 00:11:36.597 policy. I think the most useful thing we 00:11:36.680 --> 00:11:39.797 can do is describe to the world what 00:11:39.880 --> 00:11:44.637 we're seeing and and provide data to the world. And then and then, you know, it's 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:46.797 it's left to the the public in in a 00:11:46.880 --> 00:11:49.437 democracy to to, you know, to take that 00:11:49.520 --> 00:11:54.037 data and and to use it and to use it to drive policy. We can't drive policy on 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:55.997 our own. >> Are you going to be talking to officials 00:11:56.080 --> 00:11:59.357 while you're here? Have you Have you been along to USA house yet? 00:11:59.440 --> 00:12:01.877 >> Uh I've not I've not been to USA house. 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:05.677 You know, I I will I will I I, you know, I will be talking to officials during my 00:12:05.760 --> 00:12:08.837 during my trip to Davos. >> [laughter] 00:12:08.920 --> 00:12:14.237 >> Good. So, um just to go back to our topic then. So, you founded Anthropic um 00:12:14.320 --> 00:12:17.277 specifically because you were worried about the that you didn't think that 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.437 OpenAI was taking safety seriously enough. Now, some people say that, you 00:12:21.520 --> 00:12:25.437 know, the competitive pressures mean that you've gone more hawkish now. I 00:12:25.520 --> 00:12:28.477 mean, do Are those competitive pressures, you know, to keep up with 00:12:28.560 --> 00:12:31.997 China and keep ahead of China and all the rest of it? Have they Do you think 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:34.317 they have compromised your safety principles? 00:12:34.400 --> 00:12:39.277 >> So, we've taken a very different route than some of the other players have. Uh 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.277 I I think one of the good choices we 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:45.557 made early was to be a company that is 00:12:45.640 --> 00:12:48.117 focused on enterprise rather than 00:12:48.200 --> 00:12:52.637 consumers. Um and I think, you know, it's it's very hard to fight your own 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:56.717 business incentives. It's easier to choose a business model where there's 00:12:56.800 --> 00:13:01.237 less need to fight your own business incentives. So, you know, I have a lot 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:03.477 of worries about consumer AI that it it 00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:06.037 kind of leads to needing to maximize 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:08.997 engagement. It leads to sloth. You know, 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:11.557 we've seen a lot of stuff around ads 00:13:11.640 --> 00:13:16.077 from from some of the other players, you know, Anthropic is not a player that 00:13:16.160 --> 00:13:21.037 works like that or needs to work like that. We just sell things to businesses 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:25.077 and those things directly have value, right? We We don't need to monetize a 00:13:25.160 --> 00:13:27.237 billion free users. We don't need to 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:32.117 maximize engagement for billion free users because we're in some, you know, 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:35.837 death race with with some other, you know, some other some other large 00:13:35.920 --> 00:13:40.277 player. And and so I think that has led us think more carefully. But but even 00:13:40.360 --> 00:13:44.077 with that we have made sacrifices, you know, we do all these tests on our 00:13:44.160 --> 00:13:47.157 models that others have not done. 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.597 Um you know, some other players have done them but but you know, I think we've 00:13:50.680 --> 00:13:53.797 been the most you know, aggressive and 00:13:53.880 --> 00:13:58.437 you know, when we when we run tests that you know, show up certain behaviors in 00:13:58.520 --> 00:14:03.157 our model, you know, these things around deception, black mail, sycophancy that 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:07.717 we show in tests that are present in all of the models. But you know, 00:14:07.800 --> 00:14:12.117 we make sure to always talk to the public about about these things. 00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:16.237 Um and you know, we we've we you know, we pioneered the science of mechanistic 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:20.157 interpretability for looking inside models. So, you know, have we been have 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:23.837 we been perfect? Of course not. I think we've done a generally good job. I mean, 00:14:23.920 --> 00:14:28.157 you mentioned China. I you know, I think that's not about competition. That is 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.437 that is about actually the public 00:14:30.520 --> 00:14:35.757 benefit mission is I'm I'm worried that if autocracies lead in this technology, 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:38.197 it will be a bad outcome for every single person in this room. 00:14:38.280 --> 00:14:42.117 >> What are your specific concern there? Is it about the chips? About you know, 00:14:42.200 --> 00:14:44.757 sharing data around chips or 00:14:44.840 --> 00:14:46.797 >> Yeah, well, I think I mean, you know, 00:14:46.880 --> 00:14:51.917 the the the the kind of means of selling the chips, right? That's the that's the 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:55.717 thing that I think will have the most impact on on who is ahead and and who is 00:14:55.800 --> 00:14:58.077 not. But you know, the the concern and 00:14:58.160 --> 00:15:02.757 you know, it's not about any particular country or certainly not the people in 00:15:02.840 --> 00:15:04.797 any country. It's about It's about a 00:15:04.880 --> 00:15:06.477 form of government. 00:15:06.560 --> 00:15:10.597 I am concerned that AI may be uniquely 00:15:10.680 --> 00:15:13.917 well suited to autocracy and to 00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:17.997 deepening the repression that we see in autocracies. We already see it in the 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:21.717 kind of surveillance state that is possible with today's technology. But as 00:15:21.800 --> 00:15:24.117 you think of the extent to which AI can 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.957 make individualized propaganda, can break into any computer system in the 00:15:29.040 --> 00:15:30.677 world, um 00:15:30.760 --> 00:15:34.437 uh can uh you know, surveil everyone 00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:36.757 everyone in a population, detect dissent 00:15:36.840 --> 00:15:41.797 everywhere and suppress it, you know, make, you know, a a huge army of drones 00:15:41.880 --> 00:15:46.157 that could go after each each each individual person, it's it's it's really 00:15:46.240 --> 00:15:49.517 scary. It's it's it's really scary and we have to stop it. 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:53.757 >> And is that something that you feel governments aren't paying enough 00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:56.797 attention to? >> I mean, I you know, I think I think it's 00:15:56.880 --> 00:16:01.197 I think it's fair to say that, you know, obviously, you know, different countries 00:16:01.280 --> 00:16:02.917 think of themselves as having having 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:04.957 geopolitical adversaries, but the 00:16:05.040 --> 00:16:08.557 specific focus on we we don't want 00:16:08.640 --> 00:16:13.157 autocracies to get this powerful technology and we should have targeted 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:17.797 policies. Like, we don't need to fight them. Like, we just need to not sell 00:16:17.880 --> 00:16:20.517 these chips. Um uh 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:25.157 that, you know, I I think there's not enough focus on that. 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.957 >> I want to talk a bit more about Claude because I think it's fair to say it's 00:16:29.040 --> 00:16:31.477 having a real moment. I mean, we were >> It's it's having a moment. 00:16:31.560 --> 00:16:33.237 >> It is having a moment and we we recently 00:16:33.320 --> 00:16:37.197 reported on how engineers and regular users are like are getting 00:16:37.280 --> 00:16:40.917 Claude-pilled. Um and I just wondered how you feel about 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.197 the state of the business today versus a year ago. 00:16:44.280 --> 00:16:47.277 >> Yeah, I mean, this is one of these things that's been the growth of the 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.957 business has been fast, [snorts] but but 00:16:50.040 --> 00:16:54.477 but kind of on on the same smooth exponential curve as the technology. So, 00:16:54.560 --> 00:16:57.877 you know, we we you know, we we have this this this revenue curve that in 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:03.237 2023 went from zero to roughly 100 100 million, [snorts] went in 2024 went from 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:06.437 roughly 100 million to roughly a billion, [clears throat] 2025 went from 00:17:06.520 --> 00:17:10.197 roughly a a billion to roughly 10 billion. Not exactly, these are rounded 00:17:10.280 --> 00:17:14.197 numbers, but but that is that is roughly it. You know, through that, if you go on 00:17:14.280 --> 00:17:17.597 Twitter, every couple months, it's like, "Oh my god, Anthropic's changing the 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:21.237 world. Oh my god, you know, Anthropic's totally destroying you know, just just 00:17:21.320 --> 00:17:25.397 the excitability of the of of the moment. But but we just watch it and we 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:29.637 watch this curve. It's fast. It's constantly progressing. It's given us 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.877 confidence. We never know for sure if it's going to continue. It might not, 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:36.917 but but that has been empirically what we have observed the whole time. And 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:40.077 then there are these moments where even though the curve is smooth, there's a 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.317 breakout moment. And so right now, I 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:44.877 think there's a breakout moment around 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:49.677 Claude Code among developers. Um you know, this this thing about being 00:17:49.760 --> 00:17:54.397 able to make whole apps and doing things end end. Again, that advanced gradually, 00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:58.357 but with our root most recent model Opus [clears throat] 4.5, it just kind of 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:00.197 reached an inflection point, right? 00:18:00.280 --> 00:18:03.997 Where you know, the the improvement was gradual, but you know, it's it's just 00:18:04.080 --> 00:18:06.917 like you know, you you you boiling the frog. You know, you see you see the 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.277 gradual improvement and then there's a specific point at which 00:18:10.360 --> 00:18:12.797 suddenly that's the point people notice. 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:17.197 I think the second thing that has that has maybe accelerated that further is we 00:18:17.280 --> 00:18:21.637 looked at Claude Code and one of the things we we noticed is there were a lot 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:23.877 of people inside Anthropic and outside 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.957 Anthropic who were not technical, but 00:18:27.040 --> 00:18:31.557 who realized that Claude Code could do these incredible agentic tasks for you. 00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:33.317 It couldn't just write code, it could 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.757 also organize your to-do list or plan 00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:40.557 your projects or organize your folders or you know, process a bunch of 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:42.437 information and kind of summarize it. So 00:18:42.520 --> 00:18:45.037 the the idea that not just a chat bot, 00:18:45.120 --> 00:18:49.037 but agentic tasks were were needed. Um 00:18:49.120 --> 00:18:52.677 non-technical people were realizing it and they wanted it so much that they 00:18:52.760 --> 00:18:55.597 were wrestling with the command line, right? Non-technical, you know, they 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.637 have no reason if you're not a programmer, it's such a terrible 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.477 interface to use if you're not a programmer. But people were going 00:19:01.560 --> 00:19:03.917 through and using it anyway. And so I looked at that and I said, that looks 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.357 like unmet demand. And so we we used we 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.077 used Claude Code again like two weeks, 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:13.357 you know, to make basically a kind of a 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:16.157 version with a better UI that's 00:19:16.240 --> 00:19:18.797 customized for tasks that 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.797 tasks other than other than code. And you know, you know, we released it and 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:27.757 you know, within like a day it you know, had like you know, 00:19:27.840 --> 00:19:32.557 you know, you know, most of the metrics on the tape were like four times as much as 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.397 anything anything anything we'd ever released. 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.597 Uh, so you know, those are the two moments. I don't know if these are new 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.957 capabilities, but you know, there was just one of these kind of consensus 00:19:42.040 --> 00:19:46.197 moments where people got really excited and it's it's it's driving adoption 00:19:46.280 --> 00:19:50.157 really fast. I think people are catching up to what the technology is is capable 00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:52.997 of because it's reached a certain point and because we built interfaces that 00:19:53.080 --> 00:19:55.637 have made it accessible. >> Can you tell us a bit about how you 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:59.597 personally in your life, your family life use a generative AI? 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.817 >> Yeah, um, so you know, when I'm writing like, you know, an essay or something 00:20:03.900 --> 00:20:06.997 [clears throat] or like, you know, things I say in front of the company, 00:20:07.080 --> 00:20:10.557 um, I feel like a fair amount of my job is writing and so I kind of how I have 00:20:10.640 --> 00:20:14.757 to plot, you know, come up with sources, help me help me with my writing, that 00:20:14.840 --> 00:20:17.997 that kind of thing. >> And then obviously you're having this 00:20:18.080 --> 00:20:21.037 great moment and I think there are your it's widely expected that you're going 00:20:21.120 --> 00:20:24.317 to IPO this year. Can you tell us a bit about your plans for that? 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.797 >> Yeah, I mean, you know, we we don't know for sure. We don't know for sure what 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.877 we're going to do and you know, I would say we're we're more focused on just 00:20:31.960 --> 00:20:35.837 keeping the revenue curve going, making the models better, selling the models to 00:20:35.920 --> 00:20:39.477 people, you know, warning about the societal impacts and bringing bringing 00:20:39.560 --> 00:20:42.357 the good stuff. societal impacts. So you know, that's the that's that's kind 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.077 that's kind of the highest that's kind of the highest priority right now, but 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.477 you know, I'm not saying anything novel if I say that this is an industry with 00:20:49.560 --> 00:20:53.437 very high capital demands. Um, uh, and you know, that the there's 00:20:53.520 --> 00:20:57.157 only so much at some point that the private markets the private markets can 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.197 provide. >> So another model that's absolutely 00:21:00.280 --> 00:21:03.917 having a moment is Gemini and it searched to the top of the app store 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:06.837 recently and OpenAI declared code red. 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.877 So everyone was got very excited about that. 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.597 Do you worry about your ability to compete against Gemini given the sheer 00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:18.357 size of Google? >> So, I think I think this is another 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:20.317 place where just just being different 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:22.837 helps. So, you know, the enterprise 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.837 strategy, Google and OpenAI are fighting 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.397 it out in consumer, right? It They It is 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:30.237 both is existential to both of them. 00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:34.757 Existential to OpenAI because that's their whole business. Existential to 00:21:34.840 --> 00:21:37.917 Google because they have the search business and that's that's what's being 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:42.357 disrupted by this, so they they need to, you know, replay replace themselves and 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:44.317 and fight the disruption. So, that's 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.357 always their first priority. And, you 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:51.037 know, they they seem more They seem much 00:21:51.120 --> 00:21:55.597 more focused on that than kind of operating in the enterprise. It's been 00:21:55.680 --> 00:21:59.557 great to see what what Gemini is is capable of you know, capable of in 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.117 consumer. You know, I think I think they're, you know, I think they're going 00:22:02.200 --> 00:22:05.757 about it a different way. I was, you know, I was just on a panel with with 00:22:05.840 --> 00:22:08.717 Demis Hassabis who leads research at Google. You know, I think I think he's a 00:22:08.800 --> 00:22:12.317 great guy. I've known him for 15 years, so I'm rooting for him. 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:15.837 >> Um while you talk about differences, one difference is, I believe, is that our 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:19.877 topic doesn't have the ability to generate videos and photos. Do you see 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.037 that as a a potential weakness? 00:22:22.120 --> 00:22:25.797 >> Um I You know, I think for enterprise business, you know, there's there's not 00:22:25.880 --> 00:22:28.117 really a demand for like, you know, you 00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:33.037 know, photos of you know, cats riding donkeys or, you know, what 00:22:33.120 --> 00:22:36.917 whatever. Whatever consumer video people want. 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:40.677 There's maybe an edge case around like slides and presentations, but if we ever 00:22:40.760 --> 00:22:42.237 need it, we can just buy them, you know, 00:22:42.320 --> 00:22:48.360 we can just contract a model from from from from from a contract a model from 00:22:50.360 --> 00:22:53.797 someone else. So, you know, I don't I don't know what will happen. I don't 00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:57.317 know what will happen in the future, but I at least don't anticipate needing 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.717 this. Um and I think there are problems associated with this. Like, you know, I 00:23:00.800 --> 00:23:04.117 think I think, you know, we look at the amount of short-form video out there. 00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:08.397 Like, a lot of it's fake. A lot of it's pretty pretty addictive. A lot of it's 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:11.117 slop. Um not to say that all of it is 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.637 bad or that necessarily doing it means 00:23:13.720 --> 00:23:18.157 you're bad, but but it's not it's not a part of the market that I'm I'm like, 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:22.357 you know, tripping over myself to to get involved in. 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.157 >> You mentioned that you were on a panel with Demis Hassabis. And when we were 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:29.797 chatting earlier yesterday, you talked you said something that I thought was 00:23:29.880 --> 00:23:34.317 quite interesting, but scientists are approaching the AI AI era or scientists 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.917 who are leading these big AI companies are approaching the era differently from 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:42.397 sort of tech entrepreneurs. Can you say a bit more about what you mean by that? 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:44.597 >> Yeah, well, so you know, when I when you 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.197 think about this technology, it's really 00:23:47.280 --> 00:23:50.197 it's really the intersection of research 00:23:50.280 --> 00:23:54.517 that has going been going on for many decades, much of which was academic in 00:23:54.600 --> 00:23:57.997 nature until, you know, a decade decade and a half ago. 00:23:58.080 --> 00:23:58.597 Um 00:23:58.680 --> 00:24:03.037 and the kind of scale needed to um you 00:24:03.120 --> 00:24:07.437 know, needed to develop and deploy these technologies over the last decade and a 00:24:07.520 --> 00:24:11.797 half, which has only come from the large-scale kind of internet and social 00:24:11.880 --> 00:24:15.837 media companies, right? They have the infrastructure, they have the cash. So, 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:20.757 we've seen a world in which some of the companies are essentially led by people 00:24:20.840 --> 00:24:22.277 who who have a scientific background. 00:24:22.360 --> 00:24:25.757 That's my background. That's Demis's background. Some of them are led by the 00:24:25.840 --> 00:24:30.357 generation of entrepreneurs that did social media. Um and I I I think that's 00:24:30.440 --> 00:24:32.557 very different. That um you know, 00:24:32.640 --> 00:24:34.997 scientists there's a long tradition of 00:24:35.080 --> 00:24:38.637 scientists thinking about the effects of 00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:40.797 the technology they build, of thinking 00:24:40.880 --> 00:24:45.797 of themselves as having responsibility for the technology they build, not 00:24:45.880 --> 00:24:49.117 ducking responsibility, right? They're they're they're they're motivated in the 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:51.797 first place by creating something for 00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:54.477 the world. And so then they they worry 00:24:54.560 --> 00:24:59.877 in the cases where that something can go wrong. Um, I think the motivation of 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:03.117 entrepreneurs, particularly the generation of 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.997 uh uh social media entrepreneurs, is very different. The selection effects 00:25:07.080 --> 00:25:11.477 that operated on them, the way in which they interacted with, you might say 00:25:11.560 --> 00:25:15.517 manipulated consumers, is very different. Um, and and so I think that 00:25:15.600 --> 00:25:19.717 that leads to that leads to different attitudes. 00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:23.957 >> Um, now we've been taking some questions from readers who submitted their 00:25:24.040 --> 00:25:26.997 questions online. But before we do that, I just wanted to ask you one more thing, 00:25:27.080 --> 00:25:29.957 which is that you know, in the big picture, tensions 00:25:30.040 --> 00:25:32.637 are running very high at the moment between the US and 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.437 China. Do you think or wonder about how that might impact how you operate your 00:25:36.520 --> 00:25:38.757 business should things escalate? 00:25:38.840 --> 00:25:42.277 >> Look, I mean, you know, we we have we have always, you know, we always speak 00:25:42.360 --> 00:25:43.957 for ourselves. We've always thought of 00:25:44.040 --> 00:25:46.077 ourselves as as as, you know, kind of 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.357 kind of our own thing and and and and 00:25:49.440 --> 00:25:51.077 and independent, right? We don't go out 00:25:51.160 --> 00:25:54.877 of our way to be for or against anyone, 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:57.917 but when we, you know, when we disagree 00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.117 on policy, we say so. When we agree on 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:02.997 policy, we say so. And we we really keep 00:26:03.080 --> 00:26:05.477 it focused on AI. And and so, you know, 00:26:05.560 --> 00:26:10.037 I you know, I haven't seen any reluctance folks in other part of parts 00:26:10.120 --> 00:26:11.917 of the world to work with us, right? 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:16.517 We're our own thing. We're providing AI models. We try to do that responsibly. 00:26:16.600 --> 00:26:20.317 >> And I see a lot of talk this week about AI sovereignty. I'm not entirely sure 00:26:20.400 --> 00:26:23.397 what but everybody seems to have their own >> don't know what it means either. 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:25.687 >> Oh, you don't have your own definition? 00:26:25.770 --> 00:26:28.197 >> [laughter] >> Do you want to hold this for me for a 00:26:28.280 --> 00:26:29.797 minute so I can make it while you do this? 00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:35.800 >> readers online. Um, so I'm going to start now with one from Trevor Loomis. 00:26:37.040 --> 00:26:40.917 Um, and his question is, what is the single most important technical 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:45.997 breakthrough still missing to make frontier AI reliably safe and controllable 00:26:46.080 --> 00:26:48.877 >> [cough] >> in real-world deployment? 00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:52.797 >> So, I think we need to make more progress on mechanistic 00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:56.597 interpretability, which is the science of looking inside the models. 00:26:56.680 --> 00:26:58.357 One of the problem is when we train 00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:03.797 these models is that we don't know, you can't be sure they're going to do what 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:06.997 you think they're going to do. You can talk to the model in one context, it can 00:27:07.080 --> 00:27:11.437 say all kinds of things. Just as with a human, that may not be a faithful 00:27:11.520 --> 00:27:15.757 representation of what they're actually thinking. If they tell you, "I'm doing X 00:27:15.840 --> 00:27:19.477 because Y." they might be doing X for a completely different reason. They might 00:27:19.560 --> 00:27:21.757 be lying about doing X. Like, we're very 00:27:21.840 --> 00:27:23.997 used to these problems with humans, but 00:27:24.080 --> 00:27:26.757 but they exist with AI as well. And so, 00:27:26.840 --> 00:27:28.917 any kind of phenomenological testing or 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.277 training, we can't be certain of. But, 00:27:32.360 --> 00:27:36.197 similar to how, you know, you can learn things about human brains by doing an 00:27:36.280 --> 00:27:38.997 MRI or an X-ray that you can't learn 00:27:39.080 --> 00:27:43.437 just by talking to a human, the science of looking inside the AI models, I am 00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:45.317 convinced that this ultimately holds the 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:50.637 key to making the model safe and controllable because it's the only 00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.117 ground truth we have. >> Right. 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:55.597 Okay. Um I have another question here 00:27:55.680 --> 00:28:01.237 from Jim O'Connell. How will AI affect current K-12 educational achievement 00:28:01.320 --> 00:28:04.357 gaps? A practical question there from no doubt a parent. 00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:08.197 >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I I my you know, there there's kind of the 00:28:08.280 --> 00:28:12.317 short-term stuff about, you know, people using AI for cheating, which I think is, 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:17.077 you know, I think is problematic. But, you know, in in in relative terms, okay, 00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:20.917 fine, you can have a kind of a different way of um 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:24.037 uh you know, of teaching using AI and you know, we've we've thought about 00:28:24.120 --> 00:28:27.717 that. We've released versions of of Claude for for education that are kind 00:28:27.800 --> 00:28:29.517 of designed around that. But, I think 00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:33.277 the harder problem behind that is, okay, 00:28:33.360 --> 00:28:37.197 what skills are we actually teaching in in the world of AI? What does education 00:28:37.280 --> 00:28:41.357 look like it look like in the world of AI? And it's it's not so easy because 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.837 the disruption is broad and we don't, you know, if someone asked me what 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.277 exactly what career should I go into?" 00:28:48.360 --> 00:28:52.397 The The uncomfortable truth is I I'm I'm not sure. I can't tell the direction 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.557 that it's going to I can't tell the direction that it's going to go yet. I I 00:28:56.640 --> 00:29:01.797 will say that I think we should go back to some concepts that we had earlier 00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:03.477 about education. Like we we've had a 00:29:03.560 --> 00:29:06.877 very kind of like um like economically 00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:12.317 inflected, almost mercenary notion notion of education. Um and and and I 00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:15.517 think one of the things that we should do is we should maybe move away move 00:29:15.600 --> 00:29:20.197 away from that notion back to the idea that like, you know, education is is is 00:29:20.280 --> 00:29:22.197 designed to shape you as a person, is 00:29:22.280 --> 00:29:24.677 designed to build character, is is, you 00:29:24.760 --> 00:29:27.757 know, is is is is is kind of designed to 00:29:27.840 --> 00:29:31.717 enrich you and and like make you a better person. I think that's actually a 00:29:31.800 --> 00:29:34.357 safer foundation for for education's future. 00:29:34.440 --> 00:29:37.837 >> That sounds I'm rather envious of the kids kids who are yet to be educated. 00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:40.997 It's kind of education that I think we'd all have liked to have. Um so, to be 00:29:41.080 --> 00:29:43.877 fair to everybody in the room then, I just I think we've got time for one 00:29:43.960 --> 00:29:48.677 question if anybody would like to ask a question. Yeah? 00:29:48.760 --> 00:29:50.517 This lady here. 00:29:50.600 --> 00:29:53.117 Yeah Yeah, no no, here's the mic. 00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.997 >> Um I wanted to ask from a point of view 00:29:56.080 --> 00:30:00.397 of the AI labs, uh what kind of responsibility do you hold when there 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:04.397 are economies, countries, and people that are being left behind? Um would 00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.317 that expand into structurally involving 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:12.397 them, um slowing down, or actually making sure that they're not being left 00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:15.477 out? >> Yeah, I worry about that on a whole 00:30:15.560 --> 00:30:19.397 bunch of scales. And it's you know, it's not just country versus country. 00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:23.557 Certainly I worry about the developing world versus the developed world. Um 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.357 where, you know, sometimes the the developed world developing world will 00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:28.077 get passed by by by technological 00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:30.357 revolutions. But I But you know, I also 00:30:30.440 --> 00:30:33.557 worry about divisions within a country. 00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:35.397 It It has occurred to me as I've looked 00:30:35.480 --> 00:30:38.397 across our customers as the startups are 00:30:38.480 --> 00:30:42.997 so fast to adopt AI. And the traditional enterprises, because they're bigger, 00:30:43.080 --> 00:30:47.557 because they do a specific thing, they move much slower. Um and we can see it 00:30:47.640 --> 00:30:52.157 in our economic data. We can see the diffusion of the technology from states 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.877 within the US that adopted quickly and states that move slowly. It is 00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.557 diffusing. It's getting out there. But there's there's no question that there's 00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:02.797 a differential here. If I were to describe the nightmare, and then then 00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:06.757 I'll try to describe some, you know, what I think of as a solutions. The 00:31:06.840 --> 00:31:08.797 nightmare would be that there's there 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.877 there's like this emerging zeroth world 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:16.837 country of like 10 million people that's like 7 million people in the bay, you 00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:21.037 know, in like Silicon Valley and you know, 3 million people kind of scattered 00:31:21.120 --> 00:31:24.517 scat- scattered scattered throughout that that you know, is is kind of 00:31:24.600 --> 00:31:28.037 forming its own economy and it's becoming decoupled or disconnected, 00:31:28.120 --> 00:31:32.797 right? Maybe the 10% GDP growth looks like 50% GDP growth in that part of like 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.757 this technology is so crazy. It can pull things apart that way. Um I think that 00:31:37.840 --> 00:31:41.317 would be a really bad world. I would almost say that is a dystopian world, 00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:46.597 right? I And we should think about how to stop that. Um there are, you know, a 00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:49.997 number of things Anthropic is thinking about or doing. Um 00:31:50.080 --> 00:31:54.277 one is as regards the developing world, we're we are starting to do a lot of 00:31:54.360 --> 00:31:58.157 work around public health. Um we've announced stuff with, you know, run 00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:02.757 Ministry of Education. We're doing a a lot of work with the Gates Foundation. 00:32:02.840 --> 00:32:05.717 Um you know, it it would I wrote about this in Machines Evolving Grace. It 00:32:05.800 --> 00:32:08.957 would it would be really great to get these fast economic growth rates, which 00:32:09.040 --> 00:32:12.637 in theory should be even faster because it's catch-up growth, um in the 00:32:12.720 --> 00:32:16.477 developing world that I predict we're going to get in in the developed world. 00:32:16.560 --> 00:32:19.637 Um you know, within within countries, we 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:23.837 need to we you know, we need to think about, you know, how how not to have a 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:27.757 part of the world that just that just kind of decouples, right? How do we get 00:32:27.840 --> 00:32:31.477 the economic growth to Mississippi that that, you know, that is coming to this 00:32:31.560 --> 00:32:36.197 contained contained area of of of of Silicon Valley. And so, you know, there 00:32:36.280 --> 00:32:40.917 we've done work around kind of economic mobility and economic opportunity, but I 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.197 think both of these again are going to need to have some some involvement of 00:32:44.280 --> 00:32:47.237 the government. We're going to find that that, you know, 00:32:47.320 --> 00:32:50.237 ideology will will not survive the 00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:51.957 nature of this technology. It won't 00:32:52.040 --> 00:32:57.437 survive reality. The things I'm talking about, you know, while you could today 00:32:57.520 --> 00:33:00.557 say, "Oh, yeah, they're they're like politically coded in some way." They're 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.757 going to become bipartisan and universal because everyone will recognize the 00:33:03.840 --> 00:33:07.637 necessity of it. Just mark my words. If we come back, if not next year, the year 00:33:07.720 --> 00:33:11.960 after, everyone's going to think this.