WEBVTT

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When you are 18 or 19, you have no

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family, you have no real job, you don't

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have a career yet, per se. Uh that's the

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best time to start a company. We we
did in 2 weeks what the army had been

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working on for years. It feels very much

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like a culmination of destiny, a bet

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that paid off. >> Palmer,
how are you doing? Welcome to

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the show. >> I'm here with the
power of technology, the magic.

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>> How are you doing?
>> What's going on? doing really well.

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Although the thing I've been complaining
about lately is I was recently on Joe

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Rogan. Yes. >> And what you
don't understand when you

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go on Joe Rogan Yes. is that it's
like calling in a distributed denial of

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service attack on all your communications
because your email, your

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voicemail, your text messages,
your Facebook Messenger, your XDMs,

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everything becomes useless because
you have so much incoming that even the

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important things like Homer, you need to

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go to your dentist appointment right now

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flooded by bro so sick on how many float

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tank operators have reached out and said

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we got to get you

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Let me think about this for a second.

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>> I haven't even caught up
with everything, but at least three.

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>> Okay. Have you actually
gone in a float tank?

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>> I mean, that that hearing that hearing
that the beginning of the interview and

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and and realizing that that uh this guy
you're listening to wants to do a float

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tank, but hasn't yet, and you're like,
I've been waiting for this moment my

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entire life. Yeah, >> it's it's
it's funny too because in in

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in talking about float tanks, we we we
Joe and I took a we took a break during

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the show and when we took that break,
we actually went to go look at his float

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tank. >> Okay. >> And it was so
funny because Yeah, you're

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you're you're right. I'm like one of the
only people who uh has gone on the show

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knowing all about float tanks and the

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principle and the mechanism and the

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theory and the history, yet I've never

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actually managed to to get into one. So,
um, it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's

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a rare combination. I think most people
who haven't used float tanks don't

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really know much about them. >> Yeah.

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>> Or care. Yeah.
>> I've actually looked a lot into float

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tanks even beyond what
we talked about on Rogan.

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>> Yeah. >> Going back
to like my my initial kind of

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uh push into this was in VR where I got
into thinking about, you know, how do

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you how do you do like sensory um
management? How do you make how do you

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forget the senses that are at conflict
with the virtual reality you want to

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present? Float tank's interesting, but
then also you that's a sci-fi staple is

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to fill your lungs up with some kind
of oxygen bearing fluid and then go in

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your, you know, full fluid immersion pod

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so that you can achieve extremely high g

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forces during rapid acceleration. And

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what I've always wanted to do is build a

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dragster, like like build a car that can

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accelerate so fast that it would kill

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somebody if they weren't in a full fluid
immersion G-Pod. And I think that if you

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could do that, it would be like it'd
be some kind of truly novel motorsports

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achievement where for the first time in

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any motorsport, the limit would truly be

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the ability of the person to survive
it rather than the power of the machine

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that is involved. Like wouldn't that be
so cool? Oh, don't floor it unless

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you've got your lungs
full or it will kill you.

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>> Yeah, they talk
about instantly be dead.

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>> Supercars that don't have traction
control being, you know, death machines,

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right? >> But, you know,
supercars that are

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accelerating over 1g, like that's crazy.

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I want to do an inverted fan car,
basically a vacuum car that is

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accelerating at 80 or 90 gs.
>> Would you have to put like rockets on

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the back too or explosives or something
like how do you actually what how do you

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max it out? So, my general opinion
on these things is that there's an I'll

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know it when I see it element. If you're

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using rockets, you're not really a car.

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Like, look, I'm a huge fan like the NHR.

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Yeah, it was the NHR, right? The I
forget whatever the sanctioning body was

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in the United States for for for drag
races. They allowed rocket dragsters up

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until I think the late late 1980s.

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There's a great video of a dragster
called Vanishing Point. Uh, and it was a

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rocket powered dragster that was the

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last one before they banned them. It was

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doing like 400 mph in the trap and its
final run. There's a video on YouTube.

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I'll have to send it to you guys.

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Although, if you look up Vanishing Point
Rocket Dragster on YouTube, you'll find

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it. Maybe you guys can cut it into the
video later for people watching this not

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live. But, uh, its final run, they ran

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it at true full throttle. Went faster
than ever. And the camera pans up and it

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blew out every single window in the

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control tower when it went. And the

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rumor is that it went so fast and so

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hard that the pilot passed out during

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the acceleration and the parachute
was actually pulled by a timer. I don't

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>> know if that's true, but it's a great
story. So anyway, the point is rocket

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dragsters don't count. You have to do it
with wheels. I'll know it when I see it.

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If it's rockets, it's not a car. And the

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the the there was a guy in the I think

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the Air Force who set the record
for most G's sustained by a person. and he

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used a rocket sled to do that.

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Basically, it was a rocket sled
that accelerated and then very rapidly

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decelerated >> and they couldn't >> he
thought it would be unethical to have

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anybody else volunteer. So, it was a
pretty senior Air Force researcher who

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did the test himself and I think he like

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blew out all of his the all the veins in

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his eyes and his sinuses and he
was bleeding from every hole on his head.

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But he survived and recovered and he

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proved that a human can survive
over 50 gs of relatively sustained

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>> GS. >> 50 G's. Over 50 G's.

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>> Wow. >> But you have a very >>
That's leadership. That's that's

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leadership. That's true leadership.

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>> If if the float tank's going to get
added potentially to your uh routine,

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what other biohacks are you using
or or a fan of or what else have you tried

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>> in in in sort of like
the performance optimization?

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>> Being on a being on a mission. I I I
feel like being on the mission. Being on

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a mission is the ultimate biohack.

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>> Yeah. >> I Yeah. I mean,
it really is. Um I mean,

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I've always been very straight edge,

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right? So, no alcohol, no caffeine, no

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nicotine, no drugs, nothing. I've
recently started drinking since having a

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child. And you know, if we can get into

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that or not, but um I I >> I'm
very much high on life. I don't

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really want >> Doesn't Mountain
Dew have c uh caffeine in it?

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>> So, it does. And I will, but like
I generally will avoid Mountain Dew for

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that reason, at least as a dependency.

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Now I go to Taco Bell, I'm getting
that Baja blast, >> of course.

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>> Uh, and now that I've had a kid
and I drink, I can go to the Taco Bell

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Cantina, of which there's only a hand.

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Are you familiar with
the Taco Bell Cantina?

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>> I'm not. No,
>> I've I've I've never been.

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>> It's in New York.
Is there one in SF, too?

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>> I think there's one in New York City.
I don't think SF SF Nobody builds anything

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in SF. Um, >> but there's
that Taco Bell right on the

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beach in uh Pacifica.
You know what I'm talking about?

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>> Yeah. The Taco Cantina is this concept
where it's like Taco Bell, but also they

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serve alcohol. So, it's like a bar and
a Taco Bell. And there's one less than 5

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minutes from my house in Newport Beach.

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And so, I can now go get Baja Blasted
on my on my Baja Blast. Uh uh, you know.

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>> Wait, but I have to ask, what about

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fatherhood made you start to drink?

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>> Do you have kids?
Yes, but we both have kids.

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>> We actually passed the Palmer test.
We have five between us.

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>> Well, then you should understand.

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>> Yes, >> I do. >> You should understand.

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>> Yeah. No, I I understand a little bit.

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But but but part of it's like like uh

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alcohol for me, I sleep terribly.
Kids are also, you know, they make they

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they're very >> Oh, I see.
No, alcohol knocks helps. You

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know, it's different for everybody.
It knocks me It knocks me out. Yeah. Yeah,

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that makes sense. >> Maybe
because I don't have a tolerance

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to it. But, uh, so you asked about
hacks. I've got one that I've been

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pondering that maybe we could talk about.

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>> Yeah, please.

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>> Um I'm I'm really afraid that nicotine

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might be really really good. Um you know
that you've probably seen this theory,

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right? Like that like basically uh
America smokes smoked its way to being

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the dominant hyperpower. It kept people
focused. It kept people fit. It's an

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appetite suppressant. There's this
really interesting health trade-off

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theory that I'm not saying I buy into
it fully yet. So for people who are

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watching and and and shouting
and screaming, I don't buy into it fully

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yet, but I'm becoming more
and more convinced that the

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>> health

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benefits of not smoking were have not

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been properly traded against the health

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problems caused by the resulting uh uh
eating. Not just in terms of appetite

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suppressant, but also just people
filling cravings and filling the need

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for ritual, you know, ritual.
>> I would tell you out of experience

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>> with other with other things that are
worse for you. I think the crazy version

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of this is we'd all be better
off with lung cancer eventually,

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>> but fit until then. And it could
be that smoking gets you there. So,

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>> I don't know. I'm trying to figure this
one out, but nicotine is is near the top

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of my list of potential biohacks.

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>> The other the other thing that it
feels real is nicotine makes boring things

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pretty enjoyable. And it turns out that

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to do anything significant in life,
like it's often times very exciting early.

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Like let's say you're working on a new
product at Anderol. It's very exciting.

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>> You can make a 3D render, you know,
internally, not for marketing materials.

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I know you guys don't do that.

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>> No render policy. >> No renders.
But let's say you make a

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render internally. You're like, "This
is really exciting." And then and then it

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gets into the mud and you're like,
"Okay, now we have to build this thing

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and you're you're in the in the trenches
of product development and you get

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through many many many boring
hours of struggle." And it might

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>> I'll tell you a lot of the people
in the trenches, they are smoking.

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>> Yeah. the literal the literal trenches
also going back through war like they

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were that was how people used
to be in rations. Of course

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>> that I was I was going
to bring that up.

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Yeah. I mean they they didn't get
rid of the they didn't get rid of the

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cigarettes in MREs until pretty recently.
I don't know what date it was

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but it was not that long ago. Yeah.

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>> Uh >> so that's
the and of course there's

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other ways to have nicotine without
having to have the health impact of

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actually smoking a tar substance. And so
that's where it becomes interesting.

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Like you probably couldn't convince me
that smoking is literally better than,

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you know, the food, >> but it's
like, you know, is is is vaping

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worse than being fat? >> I don't know.
I struggle. I I struggle

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based on the evidence I've seen.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. Um, do
you play video games before bed? You said

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that the alcohol helps you fall asleep,
but uh do you ever get locked in and you

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like are playing video games, can't fall
asleep because of that? Um, you know, I

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used to play games all night long.
I mean, I there was a time where I was

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spending maybe 14 hours a day
on the computer if I could.

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>> Um, you know,
like that's it's you that's huge.

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>> Yeah. >> It's amazing. >> Wonderful.

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>> The best times.
>> I love them. I want to go back.

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>> Gaming was was a good chunk of that,
but also, you know, running online

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communities and other things. But um the

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the the problem that I have now is I'm

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the types of games I really like. Uh

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>> especially multiplayer games, you kind
of have to be on your game. And if you

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play late at night when you're all
wrecked, you're not even competitive

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enough for it to be fun. And I'm not
saying I need to win or I or I hate it.

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You know, I'm not I don't hate
skill-based matchmaking that much, but

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you want to know that you're playing
to at least the upper limit of your own

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potential. And I find so that that's
been the struggle as I've gotten older.

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And I know I know 33
doesn't sound that old,

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>> but there's a lot there's a lot
of things that are easier when you're 23

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than when you are 33. And like you're
not supposed to talk about that,

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particularly as an executive of a company
in California. Hi, Department of

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Justice. You're not supposed
to acknowledge that perhaps it's possible.

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I'm not saying there are. It's possible

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that different age ranges have different

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strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps,
possibly, but certainly nobody should

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ever make a hiring decision
on that basis. That' be a crime.

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>> That's right. Yes. That's right. But

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yeah, I I the imagine in some ways being

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uh probably easier parenting could be

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easier for for people in their early
20s, right? Than their early 30s just

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just by >> Oh, forget
what what are you talking

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about 20s? Look at this. Look at this

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mainstream NPC. No, no, no. Kids kids
should kids should be having should be

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having kids when they're when they're
in their teens. That's when they're that's

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when they're supposed to have them.
Now, you could argue that maybe there's a

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reason to stretch it out a little bit,
but if we're just talking about physical

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ability and and depth of well of energy,
you know, let's let's not be politically

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correct. Let's just admit you're
supposed to be having kids you're 16,

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17, 18, and be done by the time in your
20s so that you can uh so you can have

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your kids working on the farm by the time
you're in your 40s. I mean, it's a

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I I mean, I I I regret not having kids
even at the age of 33. I regret not

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having them earlier because I I'm like,
geez, this would have been so much

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easier when I was younger. I've been
with my wife since we were 15, though.

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So, it's a lot easier for me, you know,
when people like, oh, but Palmer, how do

00:12:45.520 --> 00:12:47.517
you know it's the right person?
I'm like, geez, we should have just

00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.797
obviously had kids when we were 16.
It would have worked out just fine.

00:12:50.880 --> 00:12:53.437
>> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
The whole world, you feel like when you're

00:12:53.520 --> 00:12:56.317
younger, everything's as complicated
as they'll ever be, and it just gets more

00:12:56.400 --> 00:13:00.237
complicated every year and more busy
every year. Um, take us through take us

00:13:00.320 --> 00:13:02.317
through mod. >> Well,
this gets also to like the startup

00:13:02.400 --> 00:13:06.877
thing I say all the time and I'll take
this this this moment to to push it,

00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:09.117
>> especially for anyone
young who's listening.

00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.917
>> People think that starting a company
or taking a break from school is this very

00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.717
high-risk move when you're young. They
say, "Oh, how do you find the bravery to

00:13:16.800 --> 00:13:19.997
do that?" What I need to what I try
to push on people is it will never get

00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:22.477
better. the the like when when you are

00:13:22.560 --> 00:13:25.037
18 or 19, you have no family. You have

00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:30.237
no real job. You don't have a career yet,
per se. Uh that's the best time to

00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.837
start a company. You're not giving
anything up. All you have to lose is a

00:13:33.920 --> 00:13:37.357
bit of time. And all you need to do
is better than you would have done

00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:41.757
otherwise on your resume. Like running
a startup and failing it is probably going

00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.997
to look better on your resume than
whatever you were going to be doing

00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:46.797
part-time in school as a as a as a late

00:13:46.880 --> 00:13:49.917
teenager or or early early 20s. Yeah.

00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:54.557
And so, uh, yeah, I the the best time
to start a company is when you're young

00:13:54.640 --> 00:13:57.837
because you don't need any bravery to do
it. The the people who start it later

00:13:57.920 --> 00:14:01.117
where they have a family
and a mortgage and

00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:04.877
>> yeah, once once these people have
acclimated to like a 250k base, it's

00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:09.517
like good luck rate, you know, building a
>> 100%. And and and also once you have a

00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:12.877
family, you have a sort of fiduciary
duty to your family to maximize their

00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:15.117
quality of life. There's no life hack

00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:17.677
that says that you're allowed to degrade

00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:21.277
the quality of your child's uh childhood

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.597
because daddy wanted to have that
grind set mindset, right? Like it's

00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:27.757
irresponsible at that point. So totally.

00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:32.077
Uh yeah, I I couldn't imagine starting
Oculus where I am today. Like it would

00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:34.877
it would just be it would
just be irresponsible.

00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:38.157
>> Yeah. Take us through Mod Retro.
How much of everyone's familiar with the

00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.197
Chromatic. We've talked a lot about
a lot on the show. We unboxed one. We've

00:14:41.280 --> 00:14:46.237
had a lot of fun with them. uh how much
of the road map is public now? Where's

00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:49.277
the company going? Where's the company
now? Just kind of give us the general

00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.077
update and then we'll dive into some
before I tell you where it's going, I'll

00:14:52.160 --> 00:14:55.757
go back to where it came from in
the first place. A lot of people

00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.717
>> think that Mod Retro is this very
recent thing for me. You know, the first

00:14:58.800 --> 00:15:01.517
product we launched, the Mod Retro
Chromatic, which was kind of the

00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.197
ultimate Game Boy, this this kind of

00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:05.597
heirloom grade tribute to the Nintendo

00:15:05.680 --> 00:15:08.557
Game Boy and Game Boy Color. Um, very

00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:13.277
high-end hardware, magnesium aluminum
alloy shell, a lab grown sapphire

00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:17.357
crystal screen lens rather than
plastic or even even glass. Yeah.

00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:21.117
>> Um, >> and the thing
is Mod Retro was actually

00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:25.357
the first company that I ever started
even before Oculus. So, I started Mod

00:15:25.440 --> 00:15:27.437
Retro when I was about 15 years old. It

00:15:27.520 --> 00:15:31.437
was an online forum for

00:15:31.520 --> 00:15:33.917
>> it was an online forum for people uh

00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:36.637
modifying game consoles, handhelds,

00:15:36.720 --> 00:15:40.717
portables, um also also um also uh uh

00:15:40.800 --> 00:15:44.397
you know home television consoles. The
main kind of thrust of the community was

00:15:44.480 --> 00:15:49.197
this hobby called portabilizing, which
is taking home consoles and turning them

00:15:49.280 --> 00:15:54.317
into handhelds by combining them
with modern technology like LCDs and, you

00:15:54.400 --> 00:15:58.557
know, modern modern high energy density
batteries and um I mean that that

00:15:58.640 --> 00:16:02.077
actually was a pretty big deal for a
while. I know in the modern day this

00:16:02.160 --> 00:16:03.837
doesn't mean much, but we were getting

00:16:03.920 --> 00:16:09.197
millions of unique viewers every single
month because we were getting covered of

00:16:09.280 --> 00:16:12.157
the projects on this site.
We had thousands of active members. We're

00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.637
getting covered by In Gadget and Gizmodo
and Kotaku and you know kind of the the

00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:19.037
whole group of of outlets that back then

00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:24.157
liked technology.
They're now anti-tech uh anti- tech uh

00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:26.877
>> coverage >> but back
when back when tech news was

00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.957
about tech and not anti-tech. they
were covering all of these things and uh

00:16:31.040 --> 00:16:34.317
again you know these days millions
of uniques I mean you can get that on Tik

00:16:34.400 --> 00:16:38.797
Tok with with a good dance but but that
really meant something in the mid 2000s

00:16:38.880 --> 00:16:43.357
on the internet and um >> we
we actually started working on

00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:46.877
projects like what the ultimate game boy
would be back then there was a project

00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:52.237
that I did in 2008 called the PGB
the power game boy power game boy was the

00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:54.397
ultimate game boy it
was a Game Boy Advance

00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.397
>> it was Game Boy Advance SP hardware
transplanted into an original Game boy

00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:02.637
shell, but with an upgraded screen,
upgraded controls, motion controls, an

00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.557
FM radio transmitter, so you could
broadcast the sound to your car, so you

00:17:06.640 --> 00:17:09.597
could be playing and didn't have
to tether in and could have all that sound

00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:14.477
if you're doing LSDJ, Dell's DJ or some
other chip tune software. And that

00:17:14.560 --> 00:17:18.797
actually won the the 2008 portable Palooa.
So, I'm very proud of the Power

00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:21.117
Game Boy. Um, I was also the first

00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.757
person to ever backlight a Game Boy

00:17:23.840 --> 00:17:27.917
Pocket. The first person to ever uh LED

00:17:28.000 --> 00:17:32.317
backlight an original Game Boy. So,
I mean, I am an OG to the max when it

00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:35.437
comes to this.
>> That was the original like parental

00:17:35.520 --> 00:17:39.597
control was I just remember being a kid
and being like, if I turn the lights on

00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:43.037
to play Game Boy, my parents are going
to see the light under the door. They're

00:17:43.120 --> 00:17:46.237
going to come take my Game Boy. So,
that was like trying to It was probably

00:17:46.320 --> 00:17:49.597
training my eyesight to try
to Yeah. Uh, for sure.

00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:53.437
>> No, no, you're just maybe hurting your
eyesight, but training your brain. Now

00:17:53.520 --> 00:17:56.237
you can see signal from the noise. You

00:17:56.320 --> 00:18:00.637
have ultimate night vision. You're
you're Batman himself by the Game Boy,

00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.637
molded by it, raised by it.
>> But um, so what what happened is I

00:18:04.720 --> 00:18:07.677
started on this project all the way back
then of what the ultimate Game Boy would

00:18:07.760 --> 00:18:09.917
look like. I kept working on it at Oculus.

00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.117
>> Yeah. >> I kept working
on it post Oculus. And

00:18:13.200 --> 00:18:15.757
then after about eight or nine years of

00:18:15.840 --> 00:18:20.157
not making any progress because I was just
like I I made some progress. We had

00:18:20.240 --> 00:18:23.277
some prototypes and stuff, I finally said,
you know what, I need to get more

00:18:23.360 --> 00:18:26.797
serious about paying someone else to do
my hobby uh because I'm not going to be

00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.517
able to get this done on my own. And so,

00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:34.637
uh, I ended up hiring a few people,
uh, from my past life and, uh, getting

00:18:34.720 --> 00:18:37.357
getting together with a bunch of people
who believed in this kind of vision of

00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:41.517
building these tributes to what
technology used to be, the best parts of

00:18:41.600 --> 00:18:45.677
what gaming used to be and building
a company around that. And we ended up

00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:49.677
pulling together the chromatic, all
the pieces and loose ends from 10 years of

00:18:49.760 --> 00:18:54.317
of of of hacking and modding
and turned it into a real product.

00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:57.837
>> Um, walk me through
the the the road map.

00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.557
The M64 is coming out. Uh, that's right.

00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:05.677
Do you have other ideas or or ways you
define like what sticks out? Obviously,

00:19:05.760 --> 00:19:07.357
the Game Boy is iconic, the N64 is

00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.437
iconic. Um, but uh how like how broad

00:19:11.520 --> 00:19:14.717
are you thinking? Like h like what what

00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:19.037
reaches? Is it just games?
Is it just games from the 90s, 2000s?

00:19:19.120 --> 00:19:21.437
>> We're We did the Game Boy because it's

00:19:21.520 --> 00:19:23.677
the most important handheld console

00:19:23.760 --> 00:19:26.237
ever. Yeah. I mean, it redefined the

00:19:26.320 --> 00:19:29.997
idea of gaming, what it was, how you did

00:19:30.080 --> 00:19:33.277
it, how it fit into your life. How you
could build games that you didn't sit

00:19:33.360 --> 00:19:35.917
down and be tethered to something, but
instead could be a thing that you would

00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.437
share with friends, bring to places,
meet new people playing them. I mean,

00:19:39.520 --> 00:19:42.477
that that was really, really a wild idea

00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:43.997
at the time. Yeah.

00:19:44.080 --> 00:19:47.517
>> And um there's a lot of good in that.

00:19:47.600 --> 00:19:51.437
But I think that as the games
industry has financialized

00:19:51.520 --> 00:19:55.197
and gotten much bigger, uh there's a lot
of things that have gotten lost. I think

00:19:55.280 --> 00:19:57.517
that in you the need to make more and

00:19:57.600 --> 00:20:00.797
more money has taken things away from I

00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.957
think what were actually great product
decisions in the 80s and 90s when people

00:20:05.040 --> 00:20:07.917
were just trying to make great games
and great consoles. They weren't trying to

00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:11.837
figure out how to you know bump up their
daily active users. They weren't trying

00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.117
to build live services. They weren't
trying to build, you know, passive

00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.597
recurring revenue models that they they
relied on a variety of modern marketing

00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:22.317
concepts to juice people
and get them get them locked in.

00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:25.277
>> Yeah. What do you like in the modern >>
That's why I say just generally hardware

00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:27.037
wise, I I want to go into hardware.

00:20:27.120 --> 00:20:31.197
There was like similar turning points,
right? So the M64 is an obvious one. You

00:20:31.280 --> 00:20:34.957
that was the beginning of 3D gaming
basically for everybody. You could say

00:20:35.040 --> 00:20:38.797
but Palmer there were people who were
playing you 3D games on their PCs. Yes.

00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:41.837
But in terms of mainstream access,
totally. I mean, that changed

00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:44.957
everything. Totally. I'm interested
in going to all these points where there's

00:20:45.040 --> 00:20:49.277
things that we can learn and releasing
basically the best version of that

00:20:49.360 --> 00:20:52.797
combined with modern technology that
makes it more useful. So things like

00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:56.717
>> what would a modern Sony Walkman
look like? Like what was good about the

00:20:56.800 --> 00:21:01.757
Walkman experience versus modern
streaming and kind of the digital morass

00:21:01.840 --> 00:21:05.597
that we've gotten into the algorithmic
feed? Like nobody's doing mixtapz

00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:09.117
anymore. Listening to music is not
a conscious activity. It's not a curated

00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:13.517
activity. It's a it's being a receptacle
for for a machine. People talk about

00:21:13.600 --> 00:21:17.517
just, you know, having AI slop fed
to them without realizing that, you know,

00:21:17.600 --> 00:21:21.837
the modern music industry has kind
of been pioneering this for a long time.

00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:25.437
It's just the AI is behind the curtain,
the computers are behind the curtain,

00:21:25.520 --> 00:21:27.837
and the algorithmic recommendation
engine is behind the curtain.

00:21:27.920 --> 00:21:31.037
>> Do you feel like there's some green
shoots in the modern gaming economy? I'm

00:21:31.120 --> 00:21:34.477
thinking like yes there's a lot of uh
you know mobile games that are hyper

00:21:34.560 --> 00:21:38.077
optimized and there's a lot of games
that have gone freeto play with all the

00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.357
micro payments and stuff but then you
do have folks like the you know the team

00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:45.597
behind Last of Us where it's just
a story and you don't really get sucked

00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:48.957
into any crazy micro payments and it
feels like there's an artist behind it

00:21:49.040 --> 00:21:52.637
but are there are there other areas
of the modern game industry that are

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.677
sticking out to you as like positives
>> there there certainly are and there's

00:21:55.760 --> 00:21:58.797
lots of modern indie games that are I
think doing a lot of like you look at

00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:03.277
like you look at like Silk a lot of like

00:22:03.360 --> 00:22:06.477
>> but where you're not seeing
this I think is on the hardware side

00:22:06.560 --> 00:22:09.837
>> like you're still living in an
ecosystem. So like let's say that you

00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:13.517
want to play a game that was built with
these values. All right. So you're going

00:22:13.600 --> 00:22:17.037
to turn on your console.
>> You're going to try to play it. Oh,

00:22:17.120 --> 00:22:19.917
there's a critical security update.
Time for you to do your critical security

00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.717
update. Y >> okay,
now you need to also update your

00:22:22.800 --> 00:22:26.077
console. All right, you're updating your
console. Nope. Now that wiped out all of

00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.357
the cookies. It's time for you to log
in again. You're going to log in. It wants

00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:32.637
you to do two-factor authentication
because fraud has become such a problem

00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.037
that you now, oh [__] where's my phone?

00:22:35.120 --> 00:22:37.117
Let me see. I don't have my authent.

00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:40.957
It's one of those terrible things where
it adds so much friction. And that's

00:22:41.040 --> 00:22:43.357
before you then get railroaded into a

00:22:43.440 --> 00:22:48.317
big giant UI of advertisements
>> that are autoplaying the m like

00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.077
>> the idea of like >> that's just
to get permission to upgrade your skin.

00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.997
>> The idea just be like I'm going
to take this >> Yeah. and just turn it on

00:22:56.080 --> 00:22:57.437
>> and that's it. And it's great.

00:22:57.520 --> 00:23:01.357
>> That is that Yeah. That is >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I modern games

00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:03.757
can't do that because
of the platforms that they're on.

00:23:03.840 --> 00:23:05.357
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was comping like what it

00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.797
takes to play uh actually on the one of

00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:12.477
the one of the newer Quests.
I had I realized I had seven different

00:23:12.560 --> 00:23:16.397
passwords, Instagram, Facebook, Meta.
I had all these different passwords. I had

00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:20.797
codes to different pieces to buy games
and stuff versus I went and pulled up an

00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:24.477
old N64 where you turn the button and it
just says Golden Eye. And it's just like

00:23:24.560 --> 00:23:28.157
amazing. And I was saying that like
that that seems like it own goal. It seems

00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:31.997
like modern video game designers should
at least know that you will see lower

00:23:32.080 --> 00:23:36.957
churn if you pre-install one great game
and when the first time they unbox it on

00:23:37.040 --> 00:23:40.477
Christmas, you turn it on and it's
BeatSaber or whatever the whatever the

00:23:40.560 --> 00:23:43.997
piece of software or hardware that
you're selling like have it come with

00:23:44.080 --> 00:23:46.797
something great. Like why don't people
do that? Are they just stupid or is it

00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:48.317
like something more complex?

00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:53.997
>> This is it is complex. I mean, so you
got to remember like, so first of all,

00:23:54.080 --> 00:23:57.117
there's a lot of people in the games
industry who didn't necessarily get into

00:23:57.200 --> 00:23:59.997
it purely because they
want to build great games or

00:24:00.080 --> 00:24:02.557
>> nec Starbucks and not Mountain Dew.

00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:05.517
>> Yep. You've heard my quote, right? And
you have a lot of these people who it's

00:24:05.600 --> 00:24:09.277
it's a lily pad. It's a way to make
a check or it's a way to affect affect

00:24:09.360 --> 00:24:13.197
social change in the world through
some larger company's budget.

00:24:13.280 --> 00:24:16.397
>> Um, >> and so that's
that that that that is

00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.597
part of the problem, but you're also
at odds often. like you just talked about

00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:23.757
this specific idea of having a bundled
title. So, I've been on the other side

00:24:23.840 --> 00:24:26.237
of the negotiating table inside of, you

00:24:26.320 --> 00:24:31.037
know, inside of Meta, formerly Facebook,
and, you know, formerly Oculus.

00:24:31.120 --> 00:24:34.877
>> Um, >> what's going to happen is you're
going to say, "Hey, this is going to be a

00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.517
great experience." And then you have
someone who says, "Ah, but if we have a

00:24:37.600 --> 00:24:40.317
bundled title, then that gets rid
of the revenue opportunity to have another

00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:41.917
company pay us to be the bundled title."

00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:44.477
And also, they're our developers are
going to be really upset because we're

00:24:44.560 --> 00:24:47.277
going to be competing with them.
And so, for example, your holiday day one

00:24:47.360 --> 00:24:50.877
installs, they're mostly going to be
of this new game. People are going to be

00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:54.957
less likely to do day one buys of all
of these other games. If there is a game

00:24:55.040 --> 00:24:57.997
that you can already play, you say,
"Well, well, what which should we? We

00:24:58.080 --> 00:24:59.277
have to have something pre-installed."

00:24:59.360 --> 00:25:00.477
And then you have these conversations.

00:25:00.560 --> 00:25:03.277
Well, it can't be a full game.
It needs to be a thing that shows off the

00:25:03.360 --> 00:25:06.157
hardware. It be like a fun little bite
experience, but we then need to have

00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.037
people go into it. And then here's
another thing. They say, if you have

00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:13.037
literally nothing, that means they have
to download something. And the the time

00:25:13.120 --> 00:25:17.117
where there's going to be the most
impetus for them to put in their payment

00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:20.397
details is going to be that day one.
So you don't want to do anything that

00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.597
degrades your get the payment via tails
because the moment you get their payment

00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:27.437
details, every purchase after that is
an easy click. It's an easy dopamine hit.

00:25:27.520 --> 00:25:29.277
You don't have to go
through all of the pain.

00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:33.437
>> And so it's one of those things where
you have all of these intervate money

00:25:33.520 --> 00:25:37.917
driven things and you have the platform
holders so tightly intertwined with much

00:25:38.000 --> 00:25:40.397
of the content. This is the problem when

00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:45.677
the hardware owners end up owning
all of these studios. Uh, and >> yeah,

00:25:45.760 --> 00:25:49.197
>> I mean, this is probably me getting
a little too business political, but in

00:25:49.280 --> 00:25:52.877
the early days of Oculus, we were very
clear with developers to our business

00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.197
relations. We are not Nintendo.
We are not going to compete with you and

00:25:57.280 --> 00:26:00.877
basically destroy your sales by pre
preferentially treating our own

00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:05.517
developers better, our own studios.
So, we made things, but we really said we

00:26:05.600 --> 00:26:10.237
our goal is to enable second and
third-party titles to fund lots of other

00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:14.877
people. And we funded dozens
of developers. As you become Nintendo, you

00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:18.237
make it harder for those third parties
to exist. And the first party has their

00:26:18.320 --> 00:26:21.757
own goals that are not necessarily
aligned with what you're talking about,

00:26:21.840 --> 00:26:25.277
which is turn on the game and play it
and have a good time. They have they

00:26:25.360 --> 00:26:27.277
have they have other plans for you.

00:26:27.360 --> 00:26:32.077
>> Is the answer just out compete them?
I imagine that the libertarian in you is

00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:34.957
not saying we need to regulate this.
So what's the answer?

00:26:35.040 --> 00:26:37.677
>> Of course not. No. Um I I think it's a

00:26:37.760 --> 00:26:42.877
combination of reminding people what
they've lost, like what they had and how

00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.957
good it was. >> Yeah. >> It's
about reminding and showing off for

00:26:47.040 --> 00:26:51.197
the first time to a new generation how
things used to be. I mean, one one of

00:26:51.280 --> 00:26:55.517
the things I love about Chromatic
and M64 is people, you know, show like we

00:26:55.600 --> 00:26:57.837
were just at the Portland
Retro Gaming Expo,

00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:01.597
>> and a lot of the people coming by
and having the most funs were kids whose

00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:04.477
parents brought them over like, "Oh,
check out this game." Like, "This is the

00:27:04.560 --> 00:27:06.877
Mario Kart I used to play."

00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:10.477
>> And you can you can

00:27:10.560 --> 00:27:14.157
you can show these people, I think,
a lot about how things used to be, how it

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.117
used to work, and I think you can prove
that people still want that. There's

00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:18.237
people who don't believe any of this.

00:27:18.320 --> 00:27:20.797
Like you'll talk people say, "Well,
that's not what people want from games

00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:22.957
anymore. They want live service games.

00:27:23.040 --> 00:27:26.557
They want games that are continuously
updating with fresh new content." And

00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.077
like they say this, I think because
their internal people have to convince

00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:32.957
themselves that it's true because
otherwise their business model of being

00:27:33.040 --> 00:27:36.477
a 100 billion company doesn't pan out.

00:27:36.560 --> 00:27:40.477
And you contrast that with like
the number, you know how many people made

00:27:40.560 --> 00:27:43.277
the Game Boy? >> There's
12 people. I mean, it's just

00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:47.597
it's you contrast that with like the
60,000 people you have in some of these

00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:51.037
large. So, I I look, I don't think
it's regulation. I think it's reminding

00:27:51.120 --> 00:27:55.997
people, showing people, and then at some
point, someone needs to take the best of

00:27:56.080 --> 00:27:59.757
modern technology >> and they
need to take these lessons from

00:27:59.840 --> 00:28:04.157
the past when people were trying to make
things great without necessarily being

00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:06.717
concerned about the micro financials.

00:28:06.800 --> 00:28:10.797
and they need to build probably a new
platform that that learns for you

00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:13.837
combines the best of all of these things
which is kind of the idea behind Mod

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.717
Retro. You know, you want to combine
the best of the modern and the best of the

00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:20.397
retro. And I think at some point
somebody's somebody's going to do that.

00:28:20.480 --> 00:28:23.357
You know, who knows? Maybe you'll
see something like Sega re-enters the

00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.357
console war and and kicks everybody's ass.
But u maybe it'll maybe it'll maybe

00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.477
it'll be Intel Vision. Maybe KCO
Vision's going to come back. Uh but at

00:28:32.560 --> 00:28:33.837
some point it'll happen. Yeah.

00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.797
>> Do you expect Mod Retro to continuously

00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.197
make decisions that sort of limit the

00:28:39.280 --> 00:28:42.157
TAM and that's you know not going down

00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.277
the path of hyper financialization and

00:28:45.360 --> 00:28:47.437
and you know trying to create this open

00:28:47.520 --> 00:28:52.317
ecosystem. I just I I doubt you guys
had any investors that that passed on mod

00:28:52.400 --> 00:28:54.397
retro, but I imagine some of them would

00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.877
say, you know, the NPC VC that thinks

00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.597
it's contrarian to have kids in your 20s
would say like, okay, I want to invest,

00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:04.877
but like how do you think about the TAM,
right? Like how do how do you address

00:29:04.960 --> 00:29:08.397
that? because I I can see the obvious
path of just selling a lot of really

00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:11.357
great hardware and building out,
you know, millions of people in the world

00:29:11.440 --> 00:29:14.877
that just love the hardware,
buy the hardware, and you have a fantastic

00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:19.037
business, but maybe it's not an anderal
scale opportunity, and you're probably

00:29:19.120 --> 00:29:22.157
totally okay with that.
>> I think the opportunity actually is

00:29:22.240 --> 00:29:25.117
huge. I think that the entire modern

00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.517
electronics industry is in a sort of

00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:30.637
prisoners dilemma where nobody can stop

00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:34.557
doing these things that nobody wants
to be doing because the first person to do

00:29:34.640 --> 00:29:37.917
it can't really do it alone. I mean like
like that's why your phone is full of

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:41.277
crapware. That's why you buy a laptop
and it's pre-loaded with all of this

00:29:41.360 --> 00:29:44.317
stuff. Like the the companies know just

00:29:44.400 --> 00:29:49.037
how much consumers hate it, but they're
all in this competing for each penny,

00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:53.117
competing for each dollar race against
each other with largely undifferentiated

00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:55.517
offerings. And so they have to play that

00:29:55.600 --> 00:30:00.397
game. If you can hugely differentiate
and if you can convince a consumer that

00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.517
it really is a differentiated thing,
I actually think that you can end up where

00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:07.677
the TAM is look what here's
what'll actually happen.

00:30:07.760 --> 00:30:12.237
I think the TAM for doing things right
is bigger than the TAM for things that

00:30:12.320 --> 00:30:15.277
do things wrong. >> The only
problem is that the moment you

00:30:15.360 --> 00:30:18.877
prove that that's true, everyone
is going to follow in your footsteps and

00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:22.797
become your competitors in this new
post prisoners dilemma world.

00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.637
>> Uh that's probably the form of success
that I would be happy with. It's not

00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.957
let's do everything ourselves and and
and and nobody's going to follow us.

00:30:31.040 --> 00:30:34.877
Realistically, the moment you see success,
everybody copies what you're doing. Yep.

00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:39.677
>> Changing the world is a outcome people
need to be okay with even if they don't

00:30:39.760 --> 00:30:41.597
own the whole market.

00:30:41.680 --> 00:30:45.997
>> Would Mod Retro ever make an M1 Grand?

00:30:46.080 --> 00:30:49.757
>> M1 Grand? >> I don't think so.
I think it's going to

00:30:49.840 --> 00:30:52.237
stick to consumer electronics

00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:54.637
um like technology product.

00:30:54.720 --> 00:30:57.437
>> Consumer electronics
product that was uh

00:30:57.520 --> 00:31:01.997
created before you were born.
>> Oh yeah, for sure.

00:31:02.080 --> 00:31:05.597
>> For sure. Um, I mean, we're working
on a cassette tape player right now. Okay.

00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:07.597
Yeah. >> Um, so like
that's that that that's one

00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:11.597
example. Like what what would what would
>> what would the ultimate Sony Walkman

00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.557
look like? Like if you were making
something today with those principles in

00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:18.317
mind, what would it look like today?
How would it work? And there's a lot of

00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.157
things and I'm not even talking about
the complicated things like algorithmic

00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:25.277
music feeds, just basic things. It is.

00:31:25.360 --> 00:31:28.797
It was so easy to stop and start music

00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:33.277
or adjust the volume or know that it
was playing in the first place. You know,

00:31:33.360 --> 00:31:36.157
like you have that haptic mechanical
like you can literally feel the you feel

00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.597
the wheels turning. >> Um,
a Walkman on your should, you know,

00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.597
on an armband is a much better
experience than using your phone to play

00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:47.037
music. >> And I understand
why we're using one and

00:31:47.120 --> 00:31:50.957
not the other. And I'm not saying that
the cassette tape part is the part that

00:31:51.040 --> 00:31:54.637
made it good, but there's a lot of other
parts that were good that that I that I

00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:58.237
think are worth learning from. Um,
another one is like an example would be

00:31:58.320 --> 00:32:02.717
modern televisions. >> Um,
I know I'm a libertarian and I'm not

00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:07.197
supposed to like regulation, but I
sometimes flirt with the idea that

00:32:07.280 --> 00:32:12.077
smart TVs should be illegal.
>> I I hate smart TVs so much.

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:14.877
>> They're so bad. >> You're
clapping because everyone agrees.

00:32:14.960 --> 00:32:16.637
Everyone agrees.
>> This is the danger of being a

00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.477
libertarian. and you realize you can
just adopt populist pro-state positions

00:32:20.560 --> 00:32:24.717
and you can get voters. It's like, oh,
we're libertarian except for this thing

00:32:24.800 --> 00:32:26.317
that you hate.
We're going to regulate that.

00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:30.797
>> You can be you can be trusted with
total control. I >> I would trust you.

00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.037
>> Exactly. But >> you're
not like the other ones.

00:32:33.120 --> 00:32:35.117
>> But like smart TVs
create a lot of these

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.837
same bad incentives where you have the
hardware manufacturer not just trying to

00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:41.837
build a good TV, a good screen, good
visual technology. They're now dipping

00:32:41.920 --> 00:32:45.037
their toe into, well, I actually need
to be a services company. I need to be a

00:32:45.120 --> 00:32:47.597
software platform company.
I need to run an app store.

00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.157
>> Y >> and it's a it's
a prisoner's dilemma if

00:32:50.240 --> 00:32:53.597
you don't do those things and if you
don't introduce advertising into your TV

00:32:53.680 --> 00:32:56.717
feeds and if you don't have, you know,
a lock screen that's showing ads on your

00:32:56.800 --> 00:33:00.237
TV, how could you compete with the
people who are who charge, you know,

00:33:00.320 --> 00:33:02.717
just a few a few dollars less?

00:33:02.800 --> 00:33:06.797
>> Um, but I think that there's I I think
that there's value in saying like, hey,

00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:07.997
like one of the things Mod Retro is

00:33:08.080 --> 00:33:10.637
looking at doing is doing a modern CRT

00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:14.237
display. And part of the value there is

00:33:14.320 --> 00:33:18.557
building something that is actually
has all those cool attributes of a CRT,

00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:21.517
especially when you're working
with retro computer systems and retro

00:33:21.600 --> 00:33:26.397
consoles that we're designing the art
around the particular technicalities of

00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:30.317
how a CRT works in terms of having
very high motion clarity, very very good

00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:34.477
color gamut, relying on the persistence
of the phosphor to enable certain visual

00:33:34.560 --> 00:33:38.317
effects, um a cert certain blending that
happens on certain things, doing display

00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.117
interlacing techniques, but but ignoring
all There's also just the fact that a TV

00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:47.437
that you can plug something into and it
just shows what you plugged into it is

00:33:47.520 --> 00:33:51.597
an incredibly novel idea. And I think
bringing it back, reminding people of

00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:53.517
that. Like I I would be I wouldn't be

00:33:53.600 --> 00:33:55.357
surprised to see Mod Retro make a

00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:58.877
totally modern technology display

00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.357
that is just a TV that doesn't [__] you.

00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:05.197
Like that's it. I think I >> I mean
just just think just the the the

00:34:05.280 --> 00:34:09.837
the my biggest critique of all these
smart TVs is how quickly the software

00:34:09.920 --> 00:34:13.277
degrades. Like it wasn't good in the
beginning and then quickly there's like

00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.677
a a small lag every time you push
a button. And imagine a TV that was just

00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.837
super snappy and just had the three apps
that you actually want to use. And I'm

00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:24.397
sure you >> go back and use
go back and use like a

00:34:24.480 --> 00:34:27.117
even like a flip phone from the early

00:34:27.200 --> 00:34:30.717
2000s. The UIs were literally orders of

00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:33.677
magnitude faster and snappier than the

00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:36.397
UIs of these modern smart TVs. Like you

00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:41.357
can buy a TV with 8 GB
of RAM and a 3 GHz processor

00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:44.717
>> and somehow you're right,
it still manages to have that lag.

00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:48.157
>> You know what? We're at a stage
in the technology cycle where people make

00:34:48.240 --> 00:34:51.357
things that are different but not
necessarily better. There's this

00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:53.757
pressure to do things that are
new and horizontal movement.

00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:57.597
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I and and
my biggest critique is the new uh iOS

00:34:57.680 --> 00:35:01.357
liquid glass. It's like congratulations,
you made it different. I don't believe

00:35:01.440 --> 00:35:05.517
you made it better. >> Yeah.
Uh what do you think? Do you think

00:35:05.600 --> 00:35:07.677
there's a world where the next turn of

00:35:07.760 --> 00:35:11.597
VR kind of displaces TVs? Uh we talked

00:35:11.680 --> 00:35:15.117
to James Cameron about this and it
seemed like he'd kind of seen the next

00:35:15.200 --> 00:35:17.197
iteration maybe and was kind of excited

00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.037
about the idea of being able to watch a

00:35:19.120 --> 00:35:22.717
3D IMAX movie at home. And from my

00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:26.317
experience with the Apple Vision Pro,
the screen's getting better and better.

00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.837
Meta's working on this stuff. Like we've
talked to the big screen team. It feels

00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:33.597
like we might finally be at a point
where we're thinking about replacing the

00:35:33.680 --> 00:35:37.597
home theater. >> The way
to think about VR headsets is

00:35:37.680 --> 00:35:42.317
not as a replacement for a TV, >>
but as a replacement for a home theater.

00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:43.917
>> So, and the reason that's important is

00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:47.037
it's not just a TV, a screen, it's a

00:35:47.120 --> 00:35:51.437
controlled environment optimized
for watching that content. The thing I've

00:35:51.520 --> 00:35:55.037
always liked about VR is you can have
all this cool new VR content, but it can

00:35:55.120 --> 00:36:00.317
potentially also simulate any previous
form of any previous media experience

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:02.957
before. So like an example I've given
when people said, well, you know, what

00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:07.037
about like an ebook, you know, an ebook
reader on VR? Uh, you know, are we are

00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:09.997
we really going to use that? And the
point I make is well, look, if you make

00:36:10.080 --> 00:36:13.277
this good enough, it's not just the book,
right? The experience of reading a

00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:16.717
book is also your environment, your
surroundings. People will go places just

00:36:16.800 --> 00:36:19.997
to sit down and read a book in the
right environment. Simulating that is

00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:23.517
interesting. So, and the same thing goes
for music, right? It's not that you're

00:36:23.600 --> 00:36:27.277
not trying to simulate a speaker.
You're trying to simulate, you know, a

00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:30.317
listening room. >> And I feel
like that that's where things

00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:33.437
are going. I think that's why James
Cameron is excited because you spend a

00:36:33.520 --> 00:36:36.237
lot of money to control a viewing
experience when you're doing it

00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:40.157
physically, right? Like, I'm building
walls. I'm soundproofing a room. I'm

00:36:40.240 --> 00:36:43.037
painting the whole thing matte black so
there's no reflections on my screen. By

00:36:43.120 --> 00:36:46.397
the way, I've done that. I have
a basement home theater that I made myself

00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:50.237
and uh it's the the walls are painted
matte black and the ceiling is painted

00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:54.557
matte black and I have custom matte
black carpet that's mostly black except

00:36:54.640 --> 00:36:58.397
for a few of my favorite galaxies
printed on it from NASA imagery because

00:36:58.480 --> 00:36:59.677
I wanted to have some space carpet.

00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:04.237
Nothing's cooler than space carpet. Um,
but like that was really expensive to do

00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.837
all that and I think VR is going
to actually surpass that experience in

00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:10.077
short order. That the technological path

00:37:10.160 --> 00:37:13.597
to VR displays being better than 99% of

00:37:13.680 --> 00:37:17.757
people's home viewing environments
is a singledigit year problem. It's not

00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:21.437
decades. It's it it's it's
within 10 years certainly.

00:37:21.520 --> 00:37:25.677
>> Yeah. What's the what's in the critical
path? Is it you've said that you liked

00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:29.437
pulling the battery out. Is are there
other things that you're pulling out if

00:37:29.520 --> 00:37:34.717
you're building the next version of
consumer like VRS home theater? What are

00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:37.917
the design considerations you're pulling
out? I mean I mean I mean where do I

00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:41.277
even where do I even begin?
>> That second screen on the outside you'd

00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:42.557
have you'd definitely have that if you

00:37:42.640 --> 00:37:44.397
want to be in a home theater, right?

00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:48.477
>> No. No. Um I hear that was a Tim Cook

00:37:48.560 --> 00:37:50.957
special. Um but I can't I can't confirm

00:37:51.040 --> 00:37:55.597
it. I don't I don't work at Apple.
Um, but I mean you need to relentlessly

00:37:55.680 --> 00:37:59.437
focus on the experience of the user
of the device and you can't have features

00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:01.837
that are not adding to that. Like you

00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:06.957
don't if you're if your job is to try
and make VR cool, which is largely what

00:38:07.040 --> 00:38:09.997
Apple was trying to do with the first
generation Vision Pro, you might do

00:38:10.080 --> 00:38:12.637
things like have a screen on the outside
and like if you're trying to make it

00:38:12.720 --> 00:38:16.477
cool and acceptable, >> but at
some point you need to optimize

00:38:16.560 --> 00:38:20.397
towards the experience of it all. And
luckily in the long run, maybe even the

00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.917
medium run, these things are going
to look like sunglasses, not like ski

00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:26.957
goggles. And so that that that that's
really where this is all going. I don't

00:38:27.040 --> 00:38:30.477
I I think if you if you and me were
had James Cameron right here to grill, I

00:38:30.560 --> 00:38:32.877
don't think you would say, I think
the future looks like a bunch of people

00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:37.037
wearing ski goggles. I think you'd say
the glasses you wear to already like

00:38:37.120 --> 00:38:41.677
navigate and communicate that you're
wearing all day will also simultaneously

00:38:41.760 --> 00:38:45.117
be the best home theater device you've
ever seen. We're going to get there

00:38:45.200 --> 00:38:48.717
sooner rather than later. >> Yeah.
Let's talk about Arabore. Uh

00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:50.637
there's been some press hits lately. The

00:38:50.720 --> 00:38:53.917
press seems entirely fixated on Palmer

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:56.797
Ly's crypto bank. And obviously that uh

00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.837
is not the the

00:38:59.920 --> 00:39:03.917
>> any the full story nor is it the most
I think exciting uh thing about it from

00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.757
anybody that's been in the tech industry
that lived through the SVB collapse. And

00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:11.437
so I wanted >> I wanted
to hear it directly from you.

00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:13.997
>> Well, you know, it's a little early to
start talking about you. We just got our

00:39:14.080 --> 00:39:15.997
conditional approval which is fantastic.

00:39:16.080 --> 00:39:17.917
I think we're still waiting on FDIC.

00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:21.277
Yep. We're still waiting on full approval.
So, it's a little early for me

00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:24.957
to really get into into, you know,
going out and and marketing the bank.

00:39:25.040 --> 00:39:28.637
>> Yeah. But why? But but but yeah, >>
but what you're getting into Yeah. No, I

00:39:28.720 --> 00:39:31.357
I get it. Like the I think there's this

00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:36.877
natural inclination for people to look
at this and say, "Oh, it's like what SVB

00:39:36.960 --> 00:39:39.997
was. It's catering to the same customers.
That must mean that they're

00:39:40.080 --> 00:39:42.717
going to be this really high-risk bank
that does all these high risk things."

00:39:42.800 --> 00:39:47.037
In reality, it's literally reaction to
that. It is an opposite. The reason that

00:39:47.120 --> 00:39:49.917
we got this approval is because we went
in saying we are going to have the most

00:39:50.000 --> 00:39:53.117
conservative loan to deposit ratios of

00:39:53.200 --> 00:39:55.437
any bank in history. We are going to do

00:39:55.520 --> 00:39:58.157
this extremely novel service of taking

00:39:58.240 --> 00:40:02.557
money from people, holding it for them,
and then allowing them to have it back.

00:40:02.640 --> 00:40:05.757
Like like we're going to be offering
these services that banks used to offer.

00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:08.317
You can't get the service I just
described in any bank. If you go and you

00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:10.957
say, "I want you to just like hold on to
my assets, but I don't want you to loan

00:40:11.040 --> 00:40:14.317
against them." Yeah.
>> Like that's that's not what a bank is.

00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:17.517
What are you talking about? And of course,
like I'm not saying that all

00:40:17.600 --> 00:40:21.357
assets should be held that way, but when
you're a business in the business of

00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:24.717
making your business grow, you don't
care nearly as much about getting an

00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:29.037
extra half a percent on your deposits
as you might about truly minimizing the

00:40:29.120 --> 00:40:31.597
risk that you're not going to have
access to any of your capital. I mean,

00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:34.477
if if SVB would not have been bailed out

00:40:34.560 --> 00:40:39.037
by the government in in in a like
it wasn't just like the government's

00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:42.957
obligations, they were bailing out
they were bailing out well beyond FDIC

00:40:43.040 --> 00:40:46.237
limits. If they wouldn't have done that,
it probably would have wiped out half

00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.317
the tech industry in one fell swoop.

00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:50.397
That's crazy. How can the tech industry

00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.957
have become so ser subservient to the

00:40:53.040 --> 00:40:55.437
banking industry, to the finance bros

00:40:55.520 --> 00:40:58.157
that not only can we not survive without

00:40:58.240 --> 00:41:01.197
them, but in working with them, we sign

00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:05.437
our own death warrants, right? Like like
we can't see what the risk is, we can't

00:41:05.520 --> 00:41:09.277
control what is and there's literally
no other option. So that it is I agree.

00:41:09.360 --> 00:41:12.877
It's it's annoying to see everyone talk
about how Arabore is this new bank in

00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:15.837
the vein of SVB that's going to be
taking on higher risk, you know, higher

00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:17.277
risk bets. It's literally the opposite.

00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.397
It's it's do what SVB didn't for the

00:41:20.480 --> 00:41:23.357
people that SVB was otherwise successful

00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:25.117
in working with. So think like national

00:41:25.200 --> 00:41:27.677
security companies, hard tech, deep

00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:32.877
tech, biotech, these companies that just
need to make sure they have someone who

00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:34.477
understands how their business works.

00:41:34.560 --> 00:41:38.957
And SV did do a good job at that.
but then also is going to make sure their

00:41:39.040 --> 00:41:41.917
money is actually there when they go
to get it. That was the part that SVB

00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.437
screwed up. >> Yeah. >> How how uh

00:41:45.520 --> 00:41:47.197
>> I guess I'll end
with one bit here which

00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.357
is maybe worth noting. You know, I'm not
I'm not even I'm not working on Arabore

00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:53.597
in an operational day-to-day capacity.

00:41:53.680 --> 00:41:56.397
>> Um like I'm I'm a board member. I I

00:41:56.480 --> 00:42:01.197
founded it because I wanted this to exist.
You got to remember that the tech

00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:05.037
sorry, the finance industry is full
of people who love finance for the sake of

00:42:05.120 --> 00:42:09.277
finance, right? They're truly they're
truly in love with with all the levers

00:42:09.360 --> 00:42:12.557
and and and the machines
and how it works and what

00:42:12.640 --> 00:42:15.517
>> That's right. And in addition, they
probably like what it enables. They like

00:42:15.600 --> 00:42:18.957
free flow of capital. They love the
ability to to leverage things. Like I I

00:42:19.040 --> 00:42:23.037
I get that. >> Similarly,
I'm a VR guy. I love VR for

00:42:23.120 --> 00:42:26.237
the sake of VR. I love what VR can do.
I love that it can be a home theater. I

00:42:26.320 --> 00:42:29.917
love that it can be a classroom. I love
that it can be a time machine. But I

00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.637
also strictly love it for the sake of

00:42:32.720 --> 00:42:37.757
the technology itself. That you're that
you're presenting an artificial view to

00:42:37.840 --> 00:42:42.157
your peripheral nervous system that is
sufficiently advanced as to convince a

00:42:42.240 --> 00:42:46.877
body that has developed for millions of
years to discern what is and isn't real.

00:42:46.960 --> 00:42:50.637
Like that's that's incredible.
I love it. I would love it from a tech

00:42:50.720 --> 00:42:54.157
perspective, even if it were useless
from an everyday perspective. And I

00:42:54.240 --> 00:42:58.317
would say that is not how I am with
finance. I don't love finance for the

00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:00.637
sake of finance. I'm not a finance bro.

00:43:00.720 --> 00:43:03.277
I want something like Arabbor to exist

00:43:03.360 --> 00:43:07.997
because of and for the sake of my love
for all of these other technologies. If

00:43:08.080 --> 00:43:12.317
something doesn't exist, a safe,
reliable banking partner for people like

00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:17.917
me who care about tech for the sake
of tech and what tech can do, uh if

00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.157
something like that doesn't exist,
people are going to have a hard time.

00:43:20.240 --> 00:43:23.357
So, it's a little weird. It's one of the
few finance companies that's started by

00:43:23.440 --> 00:43:26.237
somebody who wants it to be in service

00:43:26.320 --> 00:43:30.477
of all the other true interests they
have rather than the culmination of

00:43:30.560 --> 00:43:34.877
their own personal interest. Like I
guarantee JP Morgan, uh, Goldman Sachs,

00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:38.077
these firms were not started by people
who said, you know, I don't really care

00:43:38.160 --> 00:43:42.237
about baking, but but but I I do I
do want to make this technology work.

00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:45.437
>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. That makes
a lot of sense. Uh, speaking of other uh

00:43:45.520 --> 00:43:48.237
articles, there's this interesting
article in Business Insider from six

00:43:48.320 --> 00:43:52.397
years ago. The US Army wants mixed
reality headsets that detect enemy fire,

00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:54.397
translate language, and see in the dark

00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:57.277
and the startup founded by Oculus Palmer

00:43:57.360 --> 00:44:00.077
Lucky. Oculus is Palmer Lucky is on it.

00:44:00.160 --> 00:44:04.557
Uh this was a six-year project.
What What is the full story here? What was

00:44:04.640 --> 00:44:08.317
the genesis of this article and then
uh how did the Yeah. How did the product

00:44:08.400 --> 00:44:11.197
come together? >> Well,
the thing that that's so

00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:14.077
interesting and I I think there's
a quote you should dig in there for like

00:44:14.160 --> 00:44:18.557
it's a quote from Brian Shimp. He says
it's uh the real moonshot for us is this

00:44:18.640 --> 00:44:22.237
idea. Uh you want to have every soldier,
every operator be able to have total

00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:25.677
awareness of what's going on. They know
everything they need to know to do their

00:44:25.760 --> 00:44:29.677
job and all of this is available to them
in a millisecond and the most crit and

00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:31.997
just the most critical
information that they need.

00:44:32.080 --> 00:44:36.397
>> I mean you could take that quote and
it's practically word for word what the

00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:39.677
army is saying about Soldierorn Mission
Command. I mean it could be the press

00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:42.397
release for Eagle Eye which we just
which we just started showing off

00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:45.917
publicly at a USA. I mean, uh, I I'm I'm

00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:47.597
It's interesting because a lot of people

00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:50.557
think that this move into announcing our

00:44:50.640 --> 00:44:53.437
augmented reality efforts is this new

00:44:53.520 --> 00:44:55.517
thing that we pivoted into rather than

00:44:55.600 --> 00:44:58.717
the culmination of 8 years of platform

00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:02.557
building, building the software that you
need, building the data integration

00:45:02.640 --> 00:45:06.717
techniques you need, the uh the the the
the radio relay and meshing systems that

00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:11.117
you need. There's so much you have
to do to accomplish this dream of a

00:45:11.200 --> 00:45:15.277
soldier-born heads-up display that shows
you where the baddies are, where your

00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.557
buddies are, does your ballistics
compensation and calculations. I mean,

00:45:18.640 --> 00:45:22.557
like it it is it is it takes so much
work and we've been working on this

00:45:22.640 --> 00:45:24.797
since the beginning of the company. And
so, I think that article is interesting

00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.357
because uh it's it's this was, you know,
six, seven years ago. And people are

00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:30.317
asking, what are you guys going to do?

00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.557
We said, "Oh, we're going to build
combat heads of displays that integrate

00:45:32.640 --> 00:45:35.117
data from all these sources and put it
right in the soldiers field of view so

00:45:35.200 --> 00:45:38.957
it's available in a millisecond." And when
people when we said that back then,

00:45:39.040 --> 00:45:41.517
people were kind of giving us
side eye and they were like,

00:45:41.600 --> 00:45:45.677
>> "Okay, one, that sounds crazy. Two,
the army just gave like put to put this in

00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:50.877
context, that was like 6 months after
Microsoft had won the IVAS contract."

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:54.237
They're like, "Well, that's what
Microsoft's doing. Why why why would you

00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.757
be working on that?" And even then,
it's because we had a vision for what it

00:45:57.840 --> 00:46:02.317
needed to be that was somewhat divergent
from what the army or Microsoft was

00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.717
doing. And so, we kept investing.
We kept building. And I mean, who would

00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.877
have bet that eight years later that
Microsoft contract, that $22 billion

00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:15.197
contract vehicle for the architecture
of the army's AR future would move over to

00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:19.037
Anderl that we would be launching
something like Eagle Eye and that it

00:46:19.120 --> 00:46:21.837
would be an extremely you know that when

00:46:21.920 --> 00:46:25.517
we took over SBMC from Microsoft that we

00:46:25.600 --> 00:46:29.277
integrated our UI and features that
we've been building on Lattis in less

00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:31.517
than two weeks. like we literally like

00:46:31.600 --> 00:46:34.717
we we we we did in two weeks what the

00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:38.877
army had been working on for years
because we've been building this backend

00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.877
for it and kind of preparing for the day
where this might happen. So it it feels

00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:47.037
very much like a culmination of destiny,
a bet that paid off. Uh I've been

00:46:47.120 --> 00:46:51.437
definitely talking to my investors
and reminding them that they told told us

00:46:51.520 --> 00:46:55.597
that this was a moonshot that probably
was not going to pan out. um like you

00:46:55.680 --> 00:46:58.877
know I mean try try telling someone
I think Microsoft is going to transfer

00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.877
their $22 billion contract to us at some
point. It's just like they're just like

00:47:02.960 --> 00:47:04.877
Palmer like that's magical thinking.

00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:09.357
Like it's not like it's the type
literally I've been told Palmer that's

00:47:09.440 --> 00:47:14.477
the type of thing you think when you just
miss the boat and you just can't bear to

00:47:14.560 --> 00:47:16.237
>> like you're just you're just coping.

00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:19.677
You're just >> coping.
It's cope. It's pure cope. I said

00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.077
>> well let's let's give it up
for a culmination of destiny.

00:47:22.160 --> 00:47:24.557
>> Yeah. Culmination of destiny.

00:47:24.640 --> 00:47:28.397
>> I'm always a fan of people achieving
achieving their destiny. I I haven't

00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:30.957
gotten to mine yet. Although, you know,

00:47:31.040 --> 00:47:35.597
um I won't I won't I won't do this.
You know, I think I think you guys might

00:47:35.680 --> 00:47:38.957
have even asked me about this at one
point. I I' I So, you know, I have this

00:47:39.040 --> 00:47:43.517
I have this uh I have this this goatee
that I've been growing ever since I was

00:47:43.600 --> 00:47:46.877
fired. >> And um you know,
that was like coming up

00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:50.637
on nine years ago now.
>> And uh I I've told people who asked

00:47:50.720 --> 00:47:53.517
about it that I I can't I can't shave it

00:47:53.600 --> 00:47:58.477
until certain conditions are met,
until I achieve certain goals in my life.

00:47:58.560 --> 00:48:01.037
Okay. >> And uh I I' I've
just been cryptic about

00:48:01.120 --> 00:48:02.957
it and never said why. I don't plan on

00:48:03.040 --> 00:48:05.597
changing that. But I will let you know

00:48:05.680 --> 00:48:08.317
>> I have achieved
those life goals. I have

00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:11.917
achieved the the the the my destiny end

00:48:12.000 --> 00:48:15.517
that I that I set set
for myself eight years ago. So

00:48:15.600 --> 00:48:17.997
>> Wait, so does that mean you're just
you're just keeping the goatee because

00:48:18.080 --> 00:48:19.917
you like it? Is that what you mean?

00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:22.717
>> So well I I I said I'm not going to

00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:26.317
shave it until these conditions occur.

00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:29.437
And uh there were people who believed
that those conditions will never occur.

00:48:29.520 --> 00:48:33.197
We'll have to talk about it another time.
Sure. Uh but but uh it's not that

00:48:33.280 --> 00:48:37.517
I must shave it. It's that I now can
shave it. That's right. I I I tweeted

00:48:37.600 --> 00:48:40.637
about it a few years ago and I said,
uh look, I I I'm not going to tell you

00:48:40.720 --> 00:48:42.477
what's going on in my in my personal

00:48:42.560 --> 00:48:45.837
life yet here. But but suffice to say,

00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:48.477
>> when the beard comes off,

00:48:48.560 --> 00:48:52.877
shit's about to go down.
We need a we need a we need a beard

00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:56.237
we'll get a beard tracker on the
website for sure that people get

00:48:56.320 --> 00:49:00.797
>> well we have uh Brian Armstrong
uh joining the show. Thank you so much

00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:04.637
Palmer for joining. That was a fantastic
conversation. Uh we'd love to have you

00:49:04.720 --> 00:49:06.557
back. We'll talk to you soon.
How you guys doing?

00:49:06.640 --> 00:49:11.160
>> Good to see you Palmer. Yep.