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When you are 18 or 19, you have no

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family, you have no real job, you don't

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have a career yet, per se. Uh that's the

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best time to start a company. We we
did in 2 weeks what the army had been

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working on for years. It feels very much

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like a culmination of destiny, a bet

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that paid off. >> Palmer,
how are you doing? Welcome to

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the show. >> I'm here with the
power of technology, the magic.

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>> How are you doing?
>> What's going on? doing really well.

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Although the thing I've been complaining
about lately is I was recently on Joe

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Rogan. Yes. >> And what you
don't understand when you

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go on Joe Rogan Yes. is that it's
like calling in a distributed denial of

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service attack on all your communications
because your email, your

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voicemail, your text messages,
your Facebook Messenger, your XDMs,

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everything becomes useless because
you have so much incoming that even the

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important things like Homer, you need to

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go to your dentist appointment right now

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flooded by bro so sick on how many float

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tank operators have reached out and said

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we got to get you

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Let me think about this for a second.

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>> I haven't even caught up
with everything, but at least three.

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>> Okay. Have you actually
gone in a float tank?

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>> I mean, that that hearing that hearing
that the beginning of the interview and

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and and realizing that that uh this guy
you're listening to wants to do a float

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tank, but hasn't yet, and you're like,
I've been waiting for this moment my

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entire life. Yeah, >> it's it's
it's funny too because in in

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in talking about float tanks, we we we
Joe and I took a we took a break during

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the show and when we took that break,
we actually went to go look at his float

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tank. >> Okay. >> And it was so
funny because Yeah, you're

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you're you're right. I'm like one of the
only people who uh has gone on the show

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knowing all about float tanks and the

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principle and the mechanism and the

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theory and the history, yet I've never

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actually managed to to get into one. So,
um, it's it's it's a it's a it's a it's

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a rare combination. I think most people
who haven't used float tanks don't

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really know much about them. >> Yeah.

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>> Or care. Yeah.
>> I've actually looked a lot into float

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tanks even beyond what
we talked about on Rogan.

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>> Yeah. >> Going back
to like my my initial kind of

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uh push into this was in VR where I got
into thinking about, you know, how do

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you how do you do like sensory um
management? How do you make how do you

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forget the senses that are at conflict
with the virtual reality you want to

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present? Float tank's interesting, but
then also you that's a sci-fi staple is

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to fill your lungs up with some kind
of oxygen bearing fluid and then go in

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your, you know, full fluid immersion pod

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so that you can achieve extremely high g

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forces during rapid acceleration. And

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what I've always wanted to do is build a

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dragster, like like build a car that can

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accelerate so fast that it would kill

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somebody if they weren't in a full fluid
immersion G-Pod. And I think that if you

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could do that, it would be like it'd
be some kind of truly novel motorsports

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achievement where for the first time in

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any motorsport, the limit would truly be

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the ability of the person to survive
it rather than the power of the machine

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that is involved. Like wouldn't that be
so cool? Oh, don't floor it unless

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you've got your lungs
full or it will kill you.

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>> Yeah, they talk
about instantly be dead.

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>> Supercars that don't have traction
control being, you know, death machines,

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right? >> But, you know,
supercars that are

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accelerating over 1g, like that's crazy.

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I want to do an inverted fan car,
basically a vacuum car that is

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accelerating at 80 or 90 gs.
>> Would you have to put like rockets on

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the back too or explosives or something
like how do you actually what how do you

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max it out? So, my general opinion
on these things is that there's an I'll

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know it when I see it element. If you're

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using rockets, you're not really a car.

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Like, look, I'm a huge fan like the NHR.

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Yeah, it was the NHR, right? The I
forget whatever the sanctioning body was

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in the United States for for for drag
races. They allowed rocket dragsters up

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until I think the late late 1980s.

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There's a great video of a dragster
called Vanishing Point. Uh, and it was a

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rocket powered dragster that was the

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last one before they banned them. It was

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doing like 400 mph in the trap and its
final run. There's a video on YouTube.

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I'll have to send it to you guys.

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Although, if you look up Vanishing Point
Rocket Dragster on YouTube, you'll find

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it. Maybe you guys can cut it into the
video later for people watching this not

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live. But, uh, its final run, they ran

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it at true full throttle. Went faster
than ever. And the camera pans up and it

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blew out every single window in the

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control tower when it went. And the

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rumor is that it went so fast and so

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hard that the pilot passed out during

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the acceleration and the parachute
was actually pulled by a timer. I don't

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>> know if that's true, but it's a great
story. So anyway, the point is rocket

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dragsters don't count. You have to do it
with wheels. I'll know it when I see it.

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If it's rockets, it's not a car. And the

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the the there was a guy in the I think

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the Air Force who set the record
for most G's sustained by a person. and he

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used a rocket sled to do that.

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Basically, it was a rocket sled
that accelerated and then very rapidly

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decelerated >> and they couldn't >> he
thought it would be unethical to have

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anybody else volunteer. So, it was a
pretty senior Air Force researcher who

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did the test himself and I think he like

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blew out all of his the all the veins in

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his eyes and his sinuses and he
was bleeding from every hole on his head.

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But he survived and recovered and he

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proved that a human can survive
over 50 gs of relatively sustained

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>> GS. >> 50 G's. Over 50 G's.

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>> Wow. >> But you have a very >>
That's leadership. That's that's

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leadership. That's true leadership.

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>> If if the float tank's going to get
added potentially to your uh routine,

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what other biohacks are you using
or or a fan of or what else have you tried

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>> in in in sort of like
the performance optimization?

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>> Being on a being on a mission. I I I
feel like being on the mission. Being on

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a mission is the ultimate biohack.

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>> Yeah. >> I Yeah. I mean,
it really is. Um I mean,

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I've always been very straight edge,

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right? So, no alcohol, no caffeine, no

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nicotine, no drugs, nothing. I've
recently started drinking since having a

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child. And you know, if we can get into

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that or not, but um I I >> I'm
very much high on life. I don't

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really want >> Doesn't Mountain
Dew have c uh caffeine in it?

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>> So, it does. And I will, but like
I generally will avoid Mountain Dew for

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that reason, at least as a dependency.

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Now I go to Taco Bell, I'm getting
that Baja blast, >> of course.

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>> Uh, and now that I've had a kid
and I drink, I can go to the Taco Bell

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Cantina, of which there's only a hand.

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Are you familiar with
the Taco Bell Cantina?

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>> I'm not. No,
>> I've I've I've never been.

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>> It's in New York.
Is there one in SF, too?

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>> I think there's one in New York City.
I don't think SF SF Nobody builds anything

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in SF. Um, >> but there's
that Taco Bell right on the

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beach in uh Pacifica.
You know what I'm talking about?

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>> Yeah. The Taco Cantina is this concept
where it's like Taco Bell, but also they

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serve alcohol. So, it's like a bar and
a Taco Bell. And there's one less than 5

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minutes from my house in Newport Beach.

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And so, I can now go get Baja Blasted
on my on my Baja Blast. Uh uh, you know.

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>> Wait, but I have to ask, what about

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fatherhood made you start to drink?

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>> Do you have kids?
Yes, but we both have kids.

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>> We actually passed the Palmer test.
We have five between us.

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>> Well, then you should understand.

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>> Yes, >> I do. >> You should understand.

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>> Yeah. No, I I understand a little bit.

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But but but part of it's like like uh

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alcohol for me, I sleep terribly.
Kids are also, you know, they make they

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they're very >> Oh, I see.
No, alcohol knocks helps. You

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know, it's different for everybody.
It knocks me It knocks me out. Yeah. Yeah,

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that makes sense. >> Maybe
because I don't have a tolerance

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to it. But, uh, so you asked about
hacks. I've got one that I've been

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pondering that maybe we could talk about.

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>> Yeah, please.

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>> Um I'm I'm really afraid that nicotine

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might be really really good. Um you know
that you've probably seen this theory,

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right? Like that like basically uh
America smokes smoked its way to being

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the dominant hyperpower. It kept people
focused. It kept people fit. It's an

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appetite suppressant. There's this
really interesting health trade-off

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theory that I'm not saying I buy into
it fully yet. So for people who are

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watching and and and shouting
and screaming, I don't buy into it fully

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yet, but I'm becoming more
and more convinced that the

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>> health

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benefits of not smoking were have not

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been properly traded against the health

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problems caused by the resulting uh uh
eating. Not just in terms of appetite

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suppressant, but also just people
filling cravings and filling the need

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for ritual, you know, ritual.
>> I would tell you out of experience

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>> with other with other things that are
worse for you. I think the crazy version

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of this is we'd all be better
off with lung cancer eventually,

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>> but fit until then. And it could
be that smoking gets you there. So,

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>> I don't know. I'm trying to figure this
one out, but nicotine is is near the top

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of my list of potential biohacks.

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>> The other the other thing that it
feels real is nicotine makes boring things

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pretty enjoyable. And it turns out that

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to do anything significant in life,
like it's often times very exciting early.

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Like let's say you're working on a new
product at Anderol. It's very exciting.

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>> You can make a 3D render, you know,
internally, not for marketing materials.

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I know you guys don't do that.

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>> No render policy. >> No renders.
But let's say you make a

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render internally. You're like, "This
is really exciting." And then and then it

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gets into the mud and you're like,
"Okay, now we have to build this thing

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and you're you're in the in the trenches
of product development and you get

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through many many many boring
hours of struggle." And it might

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>> I'll tell you a lot of the people
in the trenches, they are smoking.

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>> Yeah. the literal the literal trenches
also going back through war like they

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were that was how people used
to be in rations. Of course

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>> that I was I was going
to bring that up.

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Yeah. I mean they they didn't get
rid of the they didn't get rid of the

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cigarettes in MREs until pretty recently.
I don't know what date it was

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but it was not that long ago. Yeah.

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>> Uh >> so that's
the and of course there's

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other ways to have nicotine without
having to have the health impact of

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actually smoking a tar substance. And so
that's where it becomes interesting.

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Like you probably couldn't convince me
that smoking is literally better than,

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you know, the food, >> but it's
like, you know, is is is vaping

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worse than being fat? >> I don't know.
I struggle. I I struggle

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based on the evidence I've seen.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. Um, do
you play video games before bed? You said

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that the alcohol helps you fall asleep,
but uh do you ever get locked in and you

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like are playing video games, can't fall
asleep because of that? Um, you know, I

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used to play games all night long.
I mean, I there was a time where I was

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spending maybe 14 hours a day
on the computer if I could.

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>> Um, you know,
like that's it's you that's huge.

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>> Yeah. >> It's amazing. >> Wonderful.

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>> The best times.
>> I love them. I want to go back.

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>> Gaming was was a good chunk of that,
but also, you know, running online

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communities and other things. But um the

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the the problem that I have now is I'm

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the types of games I really like. Uh

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>> especially multiplayer games, you kind
of have to be on your game. And if you

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play late at night when you're all
wrecked, you're not even competitive

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enough for it to be fun. And I'm not
saying I need to win or I or I hate it.

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You know, I'm not I don't hate
skill-based matchmaking that much, but

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you want to know that you're playing
to at least the upper limit of your own

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potential. And I find so that that's
been the struggle as I've gotten older.

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And I know I know 33
doesn't sound that old,

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>> but there's a lot there's a lot
of things that are easier when you're 23

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than when you are 33. And like you're
not supposed to talk about that,

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particularly as an executive of a company
in California. Hi, Department of

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Justice. You're not supposed
to acknowledge that perhaps it's possible.

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I'm not saying there are. It's possible

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that different age ranges have different

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strengths and weaknesses. Perhaps,
possibly, but certainly nobody should

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ever make a hiring decision
on that basis. That' be a crime.

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>> That's right. Yes. That's right. But

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yeah, I I the imagine in some ways being

219
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uh probably easier parenting could be

220
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easier for for people in their early
20s, right? Than their early 30s just

221
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just by >> Oh, forget
what what are you talking

222
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about 20s? Look at this. Look at this

223
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mainstream NPC. No, no, no. Kids kids
should kids should be having should be

224
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having kids when they're when they're
in their teens. That's when they're that's

225
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when they're supposed to have them.
Now, you could argue that maybe there's a

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reason to stretch it out a little bit,
but if we're just talking about physical

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ability and and depth of well of energy,
you know, let's let's not be politically

228
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correct. Let's just admit you're
supposed to be having kids you're 16,

229
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17, 18, and be done by the time in your
20s so that you can uh so you can have

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your kids working on the farm by the time
you're in your 40s. I mean, it's a

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I I mean, I I I regret not having kids
even at the age of 33. I regret not

232
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having them earlier because I I'm like,
geez, this would have been so much

233
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easier when I was younger. I've been
with my wife since we were 15, though.

234
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So, it's a lot easier for me, you know,
when people like, oh, but Palmer, how do

235
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you know it's the right person?
I'm like, geez, we should have just

236
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obviously had kids when we were 16.
It would have worked out just fine.

237
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
The whole world, you feel like when you're

238
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younger, everything's as complicated
as they'll ever be, and it just gets more

239
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complicated every year and more busy
every year. Um, take us through take us

240
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through mod. >> Well,
this gets also to like the startup

241
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thing I say all the time and I'll take
this this this moment to to push it,

242
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>> especially for anyone
young who's listening.

243
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>> People think that starting a company
or taking a break from school is this very

244
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high-risk move when you're young. They
say, "Oh, how do you find the bravery to

245
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do that?" What I need to what I try
to push on people is it will never get

246
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better. the the like when when you are

247
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18 or 19, you have no family. You have

248
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no real job. You don't have a career yet,
per se. Uh that's the best time to

249
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start a company. You're not giving
anything up. All you have to lose is a

250
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bit of time. And all you need to do
is better than you would have done

251
00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:41,757
otherwise on your resume. Like running
a startup and failing it is probably going

252
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to look better on your resume than
whatever you were going to be doing

253
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part-time in school as a as a as a late

254
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teenager or or early early 20s. Yeah.

255
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And so, uh, yeah, I the the best time
to start a company is when you're young

256
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because you don't need any bravery to do
it. The the people who start it later

257
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where they have a family
and a mortgage and

258
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,877
>> yeah, once once these people have
acclimated to like a 250k base, it's

259
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,517
like good luck rate, you know, building a
>> 100%. And and and also once you have a

260
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family, you have a sort of fiduciary
duty to your family to maximize their

261
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quality of life. There's no life hack

262
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,677
that says that you're allowed to degrade

263
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:21,277
the quality of your child's uh childhood

264
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,597
because daddy wanted to have that
grind set mindset, right? Like it's

265
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,757
irresponsible at that point. So totally.

266
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Uh yeah, I I couldn't imagine starting
Oculus where I am today. Like it would

267
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it would just be it would
just be irresponsible.

268
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,157
>> Yeah. Take us through Mod Retro.
How much of everyone's familiar with the

269
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,197
Chromatic. We've talked a lot about
a lot on the show. We unboxed one. We've

270
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:46,237
had a lot of fun with them. uh how much
of the road map is public now? Where's

271
00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,277
the company going? Where's the company
now? Just kind of give us the general

272
00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,077
update and then we'll dive into some
before I tell you where it's going, I'll

273
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,757
go back to where it came from in
the first place. A lot of people

274
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,717
>> think that Mod Retro is this very
recent thing for me. You know, the first

275
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,517
product we launched, the Mod Retro
Chromatic, which was kind of the

276
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,197
ultimate Game Boy, this this kind of

277
00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:05,597
heirloom grade tribute to the Nintendo

278
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,557
Game Boy and Game Boy Color. Um, very

279
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:13,277
high-end hardware, magnesium aluminum
alloy shell, a lab grown sapphire

280
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,357
crystal screen lens rather than
plastic or even even glass. Yeah.

281
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,117
>> Um, >> and the thing
is Mod Retro was actually

282
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the first company that I ever started
even before Oculus. So, I started Mod

283
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,437
Retro when I was about 15 years old. It

284
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was an online forum for

285
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>> it was an online forum for people uh

286
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:36,637
modifying game consoles, handhelds,

287
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,717
portables, um also also um also uh uh

288
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,397
you know home television consoles. The
main kind of thrust of the community was

289
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,197
this hobby called portabilizing, which
is taking home consoles and turning them

290
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:54,317
into handhelds by combining them
with modern technology like LCDs and, you

291
00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,557
know, modern modern high energy density
batteries and um I mean that that

292
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,077
actually was a pretty big deal for a
while. I know in the modern day this

293
00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:03,837
doesn't mean much, but we were getting

294
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:09,197
millions of unique viewers every single
month because we were getting covered of

295
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,157
the projects on this site.
We had thousands of active members. We're

296
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,637
getting covered by In Gadget and Gizmodo
and Kotaku and you know kind of the the

297
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,037
whole group of of outlets that back then

298
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:24,157
liked technology.
They're now anti-tech uh anti- tech uh

299
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,877
>> coverage >> but back
when back when tech news was

300
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,957
about tech and not anti-tech. they
were covering all of these things and uh

301
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,317
again you know these days millions
of uniques I mean you can get that on Tik

302
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:38,797
Tok with with a good dance but but that
really meant something in the mid 2000s

303
00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:43,357
on the internet and um >> we
we actually started working on

304
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,877
projects like what the ultimate game boy
would be back then there was a project

305
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:52,237
that I did in 2008 called the PGB
the power game boy power game boy was the

306
00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,397
ultimate game boy it
was a Game Boy Advance

307
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,397
>> it was Game Boy Advance SP hardware
transplanted into an original Game boy

308
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,637
shell, but with an upgraded screen,
upgraded controls, motion controls, an

309
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,557
FM radio transmitter, so you could
broadcast the sound to your car, so you

310
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,597
could be playing and didn't have
to tether in and could have all that sound

311
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:14,477
if you're doing LSDJ, Dell's DJ or some
other chip tune software. And that

312
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,797
actually won the the 2008 portable Palooa.
So, I'm very proud of the Power

313
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,117
Game Boy. Um, I was also the first

314
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,757
person to ever backlight a Game Boy

315
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:27,917
Pocket. The first person to ever uh LED

316
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,317
backlight an original Game Boy. So,
I mean, I am an OG to the max when it

317
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,437
comes to this.
>> That was the original like parental

318
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,597
control was I just remember being a kid
and being like, if I turn the lights on

319
00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,037
to play Game Boy, my parents are going
to see the light under the door. They're

320
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,237
going to come take my Game Boy. So,
that was like trying to It was probably

321
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,597
training my eyesight to try
to Yeah. Uh, for sure.

322
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,437
>> No, no, you're just maybe hurting your
eyesight, but training your brain. Now

323
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,237
you can see signal from the noise. You

324
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,637
have ultimate night vision. You're
you're Batman himself by the Game Boy,

325
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,637
molded by it, raised by it.
>> But um, so what what happened is I

326
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,677
started on this project all the way back
then of what the ultimate Game Boy would

327
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,917
look like. I kept working on it at Oculus.

328
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,117
>> Yeah. >> I kept working
on it post Oculus. And

329
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,757
then after about eight or nine years of

330
00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:20,157
not making any progress because I was just
like I I made some progress. We had

331
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,277
some prototypes and stuff, I finally said,
you know what, I need to get more

332
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,797
serious about paying someone else to do
my hobby uh because I'm not going to be

333
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,517
able to get this done on my own. And so,

334
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:34,637
uh, I ended up hiring a few people,
uh, from my past life and, uh, getting

335
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,357
getting together with a bunch of people
who believed in this kind of vision of

336
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,517
building these tributes to what
technology used to be, the best parts of

337
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,677
what gaming used to be and building
a company around that. And we ended up

338
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,677
pulling together the chromatic, all
the pieces and loose ends from 10 years of

339
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,317
of of of hacking and modding
and turned it into a real product.

340
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,837
>> Um, walk me through
the the the road map.

341
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,557
The M64 is coming out. Uh, that's right.

342
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,677
Do you have other ideas or or ways you
define like what sticks out? Obviously,

343
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,357
the Game Boy is iconic, the N64 is

344
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,437
iconic. Um, but uh how like how broad

345
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,717
are you thinking? Like h like what what

346
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:19,037
reaches? Is it just games?
Is it just games from the 90s, 2000s?

347
00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,437
>> We're We did the Game Boy because it's

348
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:23,677
the most important handheld console

349
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,237
ever. Yeah. I mean, it redefined the

350
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,997
idea of gaming, what it was, how you did

351
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,277
it, how it fit into your life. How you
could build games that you didn't sit

352
00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:35,917
down and be tethered to something, but
instead could be a thing that you would

353
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,437
share with friends, bring to places,
meet new people playing them. I mean,

354
00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,477
that that was really, really a wild idea

355
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:43,997
at the time. Yeah.

356
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,517
>> And um there's a lot of good in that.

357
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,437
But I think that as the games
industry has financialized

358
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,197
and gotten much bigger, uh there's a lot
of things that have gotten lost. I think

359
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,517
that in you the need to make more and

360
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,797
more money has taken things away from I

361
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,957
think what were actually great product
decisions in the 80s and 90s when people

362
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,917
were just trying to make great games
and great consoles. They weren't trying to

363
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,837
figure out how to you know bump up their
daily active users. They weren't trying

364
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,117
to build live services. They weren't
trying to build, you know, passive

365
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,597
recurring revenue models that they they
relied on a variety of modern marketing

366
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,317
concepts to juice people
and get them get them locked in.

367
00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,277
>> Yeah. What do you like in the modern >>
That's why I say just generally hardware

368
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,037
wise, I I want to go into hardware.

369
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:31,197
There was like similar turning points,
right? So the M64 is an obvious one. You

370
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,957
that was the beginning of 3D gaming
basically for everybody. You could say

371
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,797
but Palmer there were people who were
playing you 3D games on their PCs. Yes.

372
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,837
But in terms of mainstream access,
totally. I mean, that changed

373
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,957
everything. Totally. I'm interested
in going to all these points where there's

374
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,277
things that we can learn and releasing
basically the best version of that

375
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,797
combined with modern technology that
makes it more useful. So things like

376
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,717
>> what would a modern Sony Walkman
look like? Like what was good about the

377
00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:01,757
Walkman experience versus modern
streaming and kind of the digital morass

378
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:05,597
that we've gotten into the algorithmic
feed? Like nobody's doing mixtapz

379
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,117
anymore. Listening to music is not
a conscious activity. It's not a curated

380
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:13,517
activity. It's a it's being a receptacle
for for a machine. People talk about

381
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,517
just, you know, having AI slop fed
to them without realizing that, you know,

382
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,837
the modern music industry has kind
of been pioneering this for a long time.

383
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,437
It's just the AI is behind the curtain,
the computers are behind the curtain,

384
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,837
and the algorithmic recommendation
engine is behind the curtain.

385
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,037
>> Do you feel like there's some green
shoots in the modern gaming economy? I'm

386
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:34,477
thinking like yes there's a lot of uh
you know mobile games that are hyper

387
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,077
optimized and there's a lot of games
that have gone freeto play with all the

388
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,357
micro payments and stuff but then you
do have folks like the you know the team

389
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,597
behind Last of Us where it's just
a story and you don't really get sucked

390
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,957
into any crazy micro payments and it
feels like there's an artist behind it

391
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,637
but are there are there other areas
of the modern game industry that are

392
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,677
sticking out to you as like positives
>> there there certainly are and there's

393
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,797
lots of modern indie games that are I
think doing a lot of like you look at

394
00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,277
like you look at like Silk a lot of like

395
00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,477
>> but where you're not seeing
this I think is on the hardware side

396
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,837
>> like you're still living in an
ecosystem. So like let's say that you

397
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,517
want to play a game that was built with
these values. All right. So you're going

398
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,037
to turn on your console.
>> You're going to try to play it. Oh,

399
00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:19,917
there's a critical security update.
Time for you to do your critical security

400
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,717
update. Y >> okay,
now you need to also update your

401
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,077
console. All right, you're updating your
console. Nope. Now that wiped out all of

402
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,357
the cookies. It's time for you to log
in again. You're going to log in. It wants

403
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,637
you to do two-factor authentication
because fraud has become such a problem

404
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,037
that you now, oh [__] where's my phone?

405
00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:37,117
Let me see. I don't have my authent.

406
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,957
It's one of those terrible things where
it adds so much friction. And that's

407
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,357
before you then get railroaded into a

408
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,317
big giant UI of advertisements
>> that are autoplaying the m like

409
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,077
>> the idea of like >> that's just
to get permission to upgrade your skin.

410
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,997
>> The idea just be like I'm going
to take this >> Yeah. and just turn it on

411
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:57,437
>> and that's it. And it's great.

412
00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:01,357
>> That is that Yeah. That is >> Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I modern games

413
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,757
can't do that because
of the platforms that they're on.

414
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,357
>> Yeah. Yeah. I was comping like what it

415
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,797
takes to play uh actually on the one of

416
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,477
the one of the newer Quests.
I had I realized I had seven different

417
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,397
passwords, Instagram, Facebook, Meta.
I had all these different passwords. I had

418
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,797
codes to different pieces to buy games
and stuff versus I went and pulled up an

419
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,477
old N64 where you turn the button and it
just says Golden Eye. And it's just like

420
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,157
amazing. And I was saying that like
that that seems like it own goal. It seems

421
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,997
like modern video game designers should
at least know that you will see lower

422
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,957
churn if you pre-install one great game
and when the first time they unbox it on

423
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,477
Christmas, you turn it on and it's
BeatSaber or whatever the whatever the

424
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,997
piece of software or hardware that
you're selling like have it come with

425
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,797
something great. Like why don't people
do that? Are they just stupid or is it

426
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:48,317
like something more complex?

427
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,997
>> This is it is complex. I mean, so you
got to remember like, so first of all,

428
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,117
there's a lot of people in the games
industry who didn't necessarily get into

429
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,997
it purely because they
want to build great games or

430
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,557
>> nec Starbucks and not Mountain Dew.

431
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,517
>> Yep. You've heard my quote, right? And
you have a lot of these people who it's

432
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,277
it's a lily pad. It's a way to make
a check or it's a way to affect affect

433
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:13,197
social change in the world through
some larger company's budget.

434
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,397
>> Um, >> and so that's
that that that that is

435
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,597
part of the problem, but you're also
at odds often. like you just talked about

436
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,757
this specific idea of having a bundled
title. So, I've been on the other side

437
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,237
of the negotiating table inside of, you

438
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:31,037
know, inside of Meta, formerly Facebook,
and, you know, formerly Oculus.

439
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,877
>> Um, >> what's going to happen is you're
going to say, "Hey, this is going to be a

440
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,517
great experience." And then you have
someone who says, "Ah, but if we have a

441
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,317
bundled title, then that gets rid
of the revenue opportunity to have another

442
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:41,917
company pay us to be the bundled title."

443
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,477
And also, they're our developers are
going to be really upset because we're

444
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,277
going to be competing with them.
And so, for example, your holiday day one

445
00:24:47,360 --> 00:24:50,877
installs, they're mostly going to be
of this new game. People are going to be

446
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,957
less likely to do day one buys of all
of these other games. If there is a game

447
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,997
that you can already play, you say,
"Well, well, what which should we? We

448
00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,277
have to have something pre-installed."

449
00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:00,477
And then you have these conversations.

450
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,277
Well, it can't be a full game.
It needs to be a thing that shows off the

451
00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:06,157
hardware. It be like a fun little bite
experience, but we then need to have

452
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,037
people go into it. And then here's
another thing. They say, if you have

453
00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:13,037
literally nothing, that means they have
to download something. And the the time

454
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:17,117
where there's going to be the most
impetus for them to put in their payment

455
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,397
details is going to be that day one.
So you don't want to do anything that

456
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,597
degrades your get the payment via tails
because the moment you get their payment

457
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,437
details, every purchase after that is
an easy click. It's an easy dopamine hit.

458
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:29,277
You don't have to go
through all of the pain.

459
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,437
>> And so it's one of those things where
you have all of these intervate money

460
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,917
driven things and you have the platform
holders so tightly intertwined with much

461
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,397
of the content. This is the problem when

462
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,677
the hardware owners end up owning
all of these studios. Uh, and >> yeah,

463
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,197
>> I mean, this is probably me getting
a little too business political, but in

464
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,877
the early days of Oculus, we were very
clear with developers to our business

465
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,197
relations. We are not Nintendo.
We are not going to compete with you and

466
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,877
basically destroy your sales by pre
preferentially treating our own

467
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,517
developers better, our own studios.
So, we made things, but we really said we

468
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,237
our goal is to enable second and
third-party titles to fund lots of other

469
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,877
people. And we funded dozens
of developers. As you become Nintendo, you

470
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,237
make it harder for those third parties
to exist. And the first party has their

471
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,757
own goals that are not necessarily
aligned with what you're talking about,

472
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,277
which is turn on the game and play it
and have a good time. They have they

473
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:27,277
have they have other plans for you.

474
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:32,077
>> Is the answer just out compete them?
I imagine that the libertarian in you is

475
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,957
not saying we need to regulate this.
So what's the answer?

476
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,677
>> Of course not. No. Um I I think it's a

477
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:42,877
combination of reminding people what
they've lost, like what they had and how

478
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,957
good it was. >> Yeah. >> It's
about reminding and showing off for

479
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,197
the first time to a new generation how
things used to be. I mean, one one of

480
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,517
the things I love about Chromatic
and M64 is people, you know, show like we

481
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,837
were just at the Portland
Retro Gaming Expo,

482
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,597
>> and a lot of the people coming by
and having the most funs were kids whose

483
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,477
parents brought them over like, "Oh,
check out this game." Like, "This is the

484
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,877
Mario Kart I used to play."

485
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,477
>> And you can you can

486
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,157
you can show these people, I think,
a lot about how things used to be, how it

487
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,117
used to work, and I think you can prove
that people still want that. There's

488
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:18,237
people who don't believe any of this.

489
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,797
Like you'll talk people say, "Well,
that's not what people want from games

490
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,957
anymore. They want live service games.

491
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,557
They want games that are continuously
updating with fresh new content." And

492
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,077
like they say this, I think because
their internal people have to convince

493
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,957
themselves that it's true because
otherwise their business model of being

494
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,477
a 100 billion company doesn't pan out.

495
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,477
And you contrast that with like
the number, you know how many people made

496
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,277
the Game Boy? >> There's
12 people. I mean, it's just

497
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:47,597
it's you contrast that with like the
60,000 people you have in some of these

498
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:51,037
large. So, I I look, I don't think
it's regulation. I think it's reminding

499
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,997
people, showing people, and then at some
point, someone needs to take the best of

500
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,757
modern technology >> and they
need to take these lessons from

501
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,157
the past when people were trying to make
things great without necessarily being

502
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,717
concerned about the micro financials.

503
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,797
and they need to build probably a new
platform that that learns for you

504
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,837
combines the best of all of these things
which is kind of the idea behind Mod

505
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,717
Retro. You know, you want to combine
the best of the modern and the best of the

506
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,397
retro. And I think at some point
somebody's somebody's going to do that.

507
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,357
You know, who knows? Maybe you'll
see something like Sega re-enters the

508
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:27,357
console war and and kicks everybody's ass.
But u maybe it'll maybe it'll maybe

509
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,477
it'll be Intel Vision. Maybe KCO
Vision's going to come back. Uh but at

510
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,837
some point it'll happen. Yeah.

511
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,797
>> Do you expect Mod Retro to continuously

512
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,197
make decisions that sort of limit the

513
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,157
TAM and that's you know not going down

514
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,277
the path of hyper financialization and

515
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,437
and you know trying to create this open

516
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,317
ecosystem. I just I I doubt you guys
had any investors that that passed on mod

517
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,397
retro, but I imagine some of them would

518
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,877
say, you know, the NPC VC that thinks

519
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,597
it's contrarian to have kids in your 20s
would say like, okay, I want to invest,

520
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,877
but like how do you think about the TAM,
right? Like how do how do you address

521
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,397
that? because I I can see the obvious
path of just selling a lot of really

522
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,357
great hardware and building out,
you know, millions of people in the world

523
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,877
that just love the hardware,
buy the hardware, and you have a fantastic

524
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,037
business, but maybe it's not an anderal
scale opportunity, and you're probably

525
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,157
totally okay with that.
>> I think the opportunity actually is

526
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,117
huge. I think that the entire modern

527
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,517
electronics industry is in a sort of

528
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,637
prisoners dilemma where nobody can stop

529
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,557
doing these things that nobody wants
to be doing because the first person to do

530
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,917
it can't really do it alone. I mean like
like that's why your phone is full of

531
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,277
crapware. That's why you buy a laptop
and it's pre-loaded with all of this

532
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,317
stuff. Like the the companies know just

533
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,037
how much consumers hate it, but they're
all in this competing for each penny,

534
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,117
competing for each dollar race against
each other with largely undifferentiated

535
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,517
offerings. And so they have to play that

536
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,397
game. If you can hugely differentiate
and if you can convince a consumer that

537
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,517
it really is a differentiated thing,
I actually think that you can end up where

538
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,677
the TAM is look what here's
what'll actually happen.

539
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,237
I think the TAM for doing things right
is bigger than the TAM for things that

540
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,277
do things wrong. >> The only
problem is that the moment you

541
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,877
prove that that's true, everyone
is going to follow in your footsteps and

542
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,797
become your competitors in this new
post prisoners dilemma world.

543
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,637
>> Uh that's probably the form of success
that I would be happy with. It's not

544
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,957
let's do everything ourselves and and
and and nobody's going to follow us.

545
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,877
Realistically, the moment you see success,
everybody copies what you're doing. Yep.

546
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,677
>> Changing the world is a outcome people
need to be okay with even if they don't

547
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,597
own the whole market.

548
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,997
>> Would Mod Retro ever make an M1 Grand?

549
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,757
>> M1 Grand? >> I don't think so.
I think it's going to

550
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,237
stick to consumer electronics

551
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,637
um like technology product.

552
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,437
>> Consumer electronics
product that was uh

553
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,997
created before you were born.
>> Oh yeah, for sure.

554
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:05,597
>> For sure. Um, I mean, we're working
on a cassette tape player right now. Okay.

555
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,597
Yeah. >> Um, so like
that's that that that's one

556
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,597
example. Like what what would what would
>> what would the ultimate Sony Walkman

557
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,557
look like? Like if you were making
something today with those principles in

558
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,317
mind, what would it look like today?
How would it work? And there's a lot of

559
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,157
things and I'm not even talking about
the complicated things like algorithmic

560
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,277
music feeds, just basic things. It is.

561
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,797
It was so easy to stop and start music

562
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,277
or adjust the volume or know that it
was playing in the first place. You know,

563
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,157
like you have that haptic mechanical
like you can literally feel the you feel

564
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,597
the wheels turning. >> Um,
a Walkman on your should, you know,

565
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,597
on an armband is a much better
experience than using your phone to play

566
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,037
music. >> And I understand
why we're using one and

567
00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:50,957
not the other. And I'm not saying that
the cassette tape part is the part that

568
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,637
made it good, but there's a lot of other
parts that were good that that I that I

569
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,237
think are worth learning from. Um,
another one is like an example would be

570
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,717
modern televisions. >> Um,
I know I'm a libertarian and I'm not

571
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,197
supposed to like regulation, but I
sometimes flirt with the idea that

572
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:12,077
smart TVs should be illegal.
>> I I hate smart TVs so much.

573
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,877
>> They're so bad. >> You're
clapping because everyone agrees.

574
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,637
Everyone agrees.
>> This is the danger of being a

575
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,477
libertarian. and you realize you can
just adopt populist pro-state positions

576
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,717
and you can get voters. It's like, oh,
we're libertarian except for this thing

577
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,317
that you hate.
We're going to regulate that.

578
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,797
>> You can be you can be trusted with
total control. I >> I would trust you.

579
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,037
>> Exactly. But >> you're
not like the other ones.

580
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,117
>> But like smart TVs
create a lot of these

581
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,837
same bad incentives where you have the
hardware manufacturer not just trying to

582
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,837
build a good TV, a good screen, good
visual technology. They're now dipping

583
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,037
their toe into, well, I actually need
to be a services company. I need to be a

584
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,597
software platform company.
I need to run an app store.

585
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,157
>> Y >> and it's a it's
a prisoner's dilemma if

586
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,597
you don't do those things and if you
don't introduce advertising into your TV

587
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,717
feeds and if you don't have, you know,
a lock screen that's showing ads on your

588
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,237
TV, how could you compete with the
people who are who charge, you know,

589
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,717
just a few a few dollars less?

590
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,797
>> Um, but I think that there's I I think
that there's value in saying like, hey,

591
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:07,997
like one of the things Mod Retro is

592
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,637
looking at doing is doing a modern CRT

593
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,237
display. And part of the value there is

594
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,557
building something that is actually
has all those cool attributes of a CRT,

595
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:21,517
especially when you're working
with retro computer systems and retro

596
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,397
consoles that we're designing the art
around the particular technicalities of

597
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,317
how a CRT works in terms of having
very high motion clarity, very very good

598
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,477
color gamut, relying on the persistence
of the phosphor to enable certain visual

599
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,317
effects, um a cert certain blending that
happens on certain things, doing display

600
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,117
interlacing techniques, but but ignoring
all There's also just the fact that a TV

601
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,437
that you can plug something into and it
just shows what you plugged into it is

602
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,597
an incredibly novel idea. And I think
bringing it back, reminding people of

603
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,517
that. Like I I would be I wouldn't be

604
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,357
surprised to see Mod Retro make a

605
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,877
totally modern technology display

606
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,357
that is just a TV that doesn't [__] you.

607
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,197
Like that's it. I think I >> I mean
just just think just the the the

608
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,837
the my biggest critique of all these
smart TVs is how quickly the software

609
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,277
degrades. Like it wasn't good in the
beginning and then quickly there's like

610
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,677
a a small lag every time you push
a button. And imagine a TV that was just

611
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,837
super snappy and just had the three apps
that you actually want to use. And I'm

612
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,397
sure you >> go back and use
go back and use like a

613
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:27,117
even like a flip phone from the early

614
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,717
2000s. The UIs were literally orders of

615
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,677
magnitude faster and snappier than the

616
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,397
UIs of these modern smart TVs. Like you

617
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,357
can buy a TV with 8 GB
of RAM and a 3 GHz processor

618
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,717
>> and somehow you're right,
it still manages to have that lag.

619
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,157
>> You know what? We're at a stage
in the technology cycle where people make

620
00:34:48,240 --> 00:34:51,357
things that are different but not
necessarily better. There's this

621
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,757
pressure to do things that are
new and horizontal movement.

622
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,597
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I and and
my biggest critique is the new uh iOS

623
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,357
liquid glass. It's like congratulations,
you made it different. I don't believe

624
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,517
you made it better. >> Yeah.
Uh what do you think? Do you think

625
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:07,677
there's a world where the next turn of

626
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,597
VR kind of displaces TVs? Uh we talked

627
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,117
to James Cameron about this and it
seemed like he'd kind of seen the next

628
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,197
iteration maybe and was kind of excited

629
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,037
about the idea of being able to watch a

630
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,717
3D IMAX movie at home. And from my

631
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,317
experience with the Apple Vision Pro,
the screen's getting better and better.

632
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,837
Meta's working on this stuff. Like we've
talked to the big screen team. It feels

633
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,597
like we might finally be at a point
where we're thinking about replacing the

634
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,597
home theater. >> The way
to think about VR headsets is

635
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,317
not as a replacement for a TV, >>
but as a replacement for a home theater.

636
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:43,917
>> So, and the reason that's important is

637
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,037
it's not just a TV, a screen, it's a

638
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,437
controlled environment optimized
for watching that content. The thing I've

639
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:55,037
always liked about VR is you can have
all this cool new VR content, but it can

640
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,317
potentially also simulate any previous
form of any previous media experience

641
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,957
before. So like an example I've given
when people said, well, you know, what

642
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,037
about like an ebook, you know, an ebook
reader on VR? Uh, you know, are we are

643
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,997
we really going to use that? And the
point I make is well, look, if you make

644
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,277
this good enough, it's not just the book,
right? The experience of reading a

645
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,717
book is also your environment, your
surroundings. People will go places just

646
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,997
to sit down and read a book in the
right environment. Simulating that is

647
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,517
interesting. So, and the same thing goes
for music, right? It's not that you're

648
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,277
not trying to simulate a speaker.
You're trying to simulate, you know, a

649
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,317
listening room. >> And I feel
like that that's where things

650
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,437
are going. I think that's why James
Cameron is excited because you spend a

651
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,237
lot of money to control a viewing
experience when you're doing it

652
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:40,157
physically, right? Like, I'm building
walls. I'm soundproofing a room. I'm

653
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,037
painting the whole thing matte black so
there's no reflections on my screen. By

654
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,397
the way, I've done that. I have
a basement home theater that I made myself

655
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,237
and uh it's the the walls are painted
matte black and the ceiling is painted

656
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,557
matte black and I have custom matte
black carpet that's mostly black except

657
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:58,397
for a few of my favorite galaxies
printed on it from NASA imagery because

658
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,677
I wanted to have some space carpet.

659
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:04,237
Nothing's cooler than space carpet. Um,
but like that was really expensive to do

660
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,837
all that and I think VR is going
to actually surpass that experience in

661
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,077
short order. That the technological path

662
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,597
to VR displays being better than 99% of

663
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,757
people's home viewing environments
is a singledigit year problem. It's not

664
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,437
decades. It's it it's it's
within 10 years certainly.

665
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,677
>> Yeah. What's the what's in the critical
path? Is it you've said that you liked

666
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,437
pulling the battery out. Is are there
other things that you're pulling out if

667
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:34,717
you're building the next version of
consumer like VRS home theater? What are

668
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,917
the design considerations you're pulling
out? I mean I mean I mean where do I

669
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,277
even where do I even begin?
>> That second screen on the outside you'd

670
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:42,557
have you'd definitely have that if you

671
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:44,397
want to be in a home theater, right?

672
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,477
>> No. No. Um I hear that was a Tim Cook

673
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,957
special. Um but I can't I can't confirm

674
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:55,597
it. I don't I don't work at Apple.
Um, but I mean you need to relentlessly

675
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,437
focus on the experience of the user
of the device and you can't have features

676
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,837
that are not adding to that. Like you

677
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,957
don't if you're if your job is to try
and make VR cool, which is largely what

678
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,997
Apple was trying to do with the first
generation Vision Pro, you might do

679
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,637
things like have a screen on the outside
and like if you're trying to make it

680
00:38:12,720 --> 00:38:16,477
cool and acceptable, >> but at
some point you need to optimize

681
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,397
towards the experience of it all. And
luckily in the long run, maybe even the

682
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,917
medium run, these things are going
to look like sunglasses, not like ski

683
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,957
goggles. And so that that that that's
really where this is all going. I don't

684
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,477
I I think if you if you and me were
had James Cameron right here to grill, I

685
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,877
don't think you would say, I think
the future looks like a bunch of people

686
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,037
wearing ski goggles. I think you'd say
the glasses you wear to already like

687
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,677
navigate and communicate that you're
wearing all day will also simultaneously

688
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,117
be the best home theater device you've
ever seen. We're going to get there

689
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,717
sooner rather than later. >> Yeah.
Let's talk about Arabore. Uh

690
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,637
there's been some press hits lately. The

691
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:53,917
press seems entirely fixated on Palmer

692
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,797
Ly's crypto bank. And obviously that uh

693
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,837
is not the the

694
00:38:59,920 --> 00:39:03,917
>> any the full story nor is it the most
I think exciting uh thing about it from

695
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,757
anybody that's been in the tech industry
that lived through the SVB collapse. And

696
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,437
so I wanted >> I wanted
to hear it directly from you.

697
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,997
>> Well, you know, it's a little early to
start talking about you. We just got our

698
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,997
conditional approval which is fantastic.

699
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:17,917
I think we're still waiting on FDIC.

700
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,277
Yep. We're still waiting on full approval.
So, it's a little early for me

701
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,957
to really get into into, you know,
going out and and marketing the bank.

702
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,637
>> Yeah. But why? But but but yeah, >>
but what you're getting into Yeah. No, I

703
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:31,357
I get it. Like the I think there's this

704
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:36,877
natural inclination for people to look
at this and say, "Oh, it's like what SVB

705
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,997
was. It's catering to the same customers.
That must mean that they're

706
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:42,717
going to be this really high-risk bank
that does all these high risk things."

707
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:47,037
In reality, it's literally reaction to
that. It is an opposite. The reason that

708
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,917
we got this approval is because we went
in saying we are going to have the most

709
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,117
conservative loan to deposit ratios of

710
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,437
any bank in history. We are going to do

711
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,157
this extremely novel service of taking

712
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:02,557
money from people, holding it for them,
and then allowing them to have it back.

713
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,757
Like like we're going to be offering
these services that banks used to offer.

714
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,317
You can't get the service I just
described in any bank. If you go and you

715
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,957
say, "I want you to just like hold on to
my assets, but I don't want you to loan

716
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,317
against them." Yeah.
>> Like that's that's not what a bank is.

717
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,517
What are you talking about? And of course,
like I'm not saying that all

718
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,357
assets should be held that way, but when
you're a business in the business of

719
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,717
making your business grow, you don't
care nearly as much about getting an

720
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:29,037
extra half a percent on your deposits
as you might about truly minimizing the

721
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,597
risk that you're not going to have
access to any of your capital. I mean,

722
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,477
if if SVB would not have been bailed out

723
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:39,037
by the government in in in a like
it wasn't just like the government's

724
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,957
obligations, they were bailing out
they were bailing out well beyond FDIC

725
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,237
limits. If they wouldn't have done that,
it probably would have wiped out half

726
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,317
the tech industry in one fell swoop.

727
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,397
That's crazy. How can the tech industry

728
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,957
have become so ser subservient to the

729
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,437
banking industry, to the finance bros

730
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,157
that not only can we not survive without

731
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:01,197
them, but in working with them, we sign

732
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,437
our own death warrants, right? Like like
we can't see what the risk is, we can't

733
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,277
control what is and there's literally
no other option. So that it is I agree.

734
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,877
It's it's annoying to see everyone talk
about how Arabore is this new bank in

735
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,837
the vein of SVB that's going to be
taking on higher risk, you know, higher

736
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,277
risk bets. It's literally the opposite.

737
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,397
It's it's do what SVB didn't for the

738
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,357
people that SVB was otherwise successful

739
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:25,117
in working with. So think like national

740
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,677
security companies, hard tech, deep

741
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:32,877
tech, biotech, these companies that just
need to make sure they have someone who

742
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:34,477
understands how their business works.

743
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,957
And SV did do a good job at that.
but then also is going to make sure their

744
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,917
money is actually there when they go
to get it. That was the part that SVB

745
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,437
screwed up. >> Yeah. >> How how uh

746
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:47,197
>> I guess I'll end
with one bit here which

747
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,357
is maybe worth noting. You know, I'm not
I'm not even I'm not working on Arabore

748
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,597
in an operational day-to-day capacity.

749
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,397
>> Um like I'm I'm a board member. I I

750
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:01,197
founded it because I wanted this to exist.
You got to remember that the tech

751
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,037
sorry, the finance industry is full
of people who love finance for the sake of

752
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,277
finance, right? They're truly they're
truly in love with with all the levers

753
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,557
and and and the machines
and how it works and what

754
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,517
>> That's right. And in addition, they
probably like what it enables. They like

755
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,957
free flow of capital. They love the
ability to to leverage things. Like I I

756
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,037
I get that. >> Similarly,
I'm a VR guy. I love VR for

757
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,237
the sake of VR. I love what VR can do.
I love that it can be a home theater. I

758
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,917
love that it can be a classroom. I love
that it can be a time machine. But I

759
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,637
also strictly love it for the sake of

760
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:37,757
the technology itself. That you're that
you're presenting an artificial view to

761
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:42,157
your peripheral nervous system that is
sufficiently advanced as to convince a

762
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:46,877
body that has developed for millions of
years to discern what is and isn't real.

763
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,637
Like that's that's incredible.
I love it. I would love it from a tech

764
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,157
perspective, even if it were useless
from an everyday perspective. And I

765
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:58,317
would say that is not how I am with
finance. I don't love finance for the

766
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,637
sake of finance. I'm not a finance bro.

767
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:03,277
I want something like Arabbor to exist

768
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,997
because of and for the sake of my love
for all of these other technologies. If

769
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,317
something doesn't exist, a safe,
reliable banking partner for people like

770
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,917
me who care about tech for the sake
of tech and what tech can do, uh if

771
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,157
something like that doesn't exist,
people are going to have a hard time.

772
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:23,357
So, it's a little weird. It's one of the
few finance companies that's started by

773
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,237
somebody who wants it to be in service

774
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,477
of all the other true interests they
have rather than the culmination of

775
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:34,877
their own personal interest. Like I
guarantee JP Morgan, uh, Goldman Sachs,

776
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,077
these firms were not started by people
who said, you know, I don't really care

777
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,237
about baking, but but but I I do I
do want to make this technology work.

778
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,437
>> Yeah. Yeah, I know. That makes
a lot of sense. Uh, speaking of other uh

779
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,237
articles, there's this interesting
article in Business Insider from six

780
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:52,397
years ago. The US Army wants mixed
reality headsets that detect enemy fire,

781
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,397
translate language, and see in the dark

782
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,277
and the startup founded by Oculus Palmer

783
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,077
Lucky. Oculus is Palmer Lucky is on it.

784
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,557
Uh this was a six-year project.
What What is the full story here? What was

785
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:08,317
the genesis of this article and then
uh how did the Yeah. How did the product

786
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,197
come together? >> Well,
the thing that that's so

787
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,077
interesting and I I think there's
a quote you should dig in there for like

788
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:18,557
it's a quote from Brian Shimp. He says
it's uh the real moonshot for us is this

789
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,237
idea. Uh you want to have every soldier,
every operator be able to have total

790
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,677
awareness of what's going on. They know
everything they need to know to do their

791
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,677
job and all of this is available to them
in a millisecond and the most crit and

792
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:31,997
just the most critical
information that they need.

793
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,397
>> I mean you could take that quote and
it's practically word for word what the

794
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,677
army is saying about Soldierorn Mission
Command. I mean it could be the press

795
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,397
release for Eagle Eye which we just
which we just started showing off

796
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,917
publicly at a USA. I mean, uh, I I'm I'm

797
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,597
It's interesting because a lot of people

798
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,557
think that this move into announcing our

799
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:53,437
augmented reality efforts is this new

800
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,517
thing that we pivoted into rather than

801
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:58,717
the culmination of 8 years of platform

802
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,557
building, building the software that you
need, building the data integration

803
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,717
techniques you need, the uh the the the
the radio relay and meshing systems that

804
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,117
you need. There's so much you have
to do to accomplish this dream of a

805
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,277
soldier-born heads-up display that shows
you where the baddies are, where your

806
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,557
buddies are, does your ballistics
compensation and calculations. I mean,

807
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,557
like it it is it is it takes so much
work and we've been working on this

808
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:24,797
since the beginning of the company. And
so, I think that article is interesting

809
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,357
because uh it's it's this was, you know,
six, seven years ago. And people are

810
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:30,317
asking, what are you guys going to do?

811
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,557
We said, "Oh, we're going to build
combat heads of displays that integrate

812
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,117
data from all these sources and put it
right in the soldiers field of view so

813
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,957
it's available in a millisecond." And when
people when we said that back then,

814
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,517
people were kind of giving us
side eye and they were like,

815
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,677
>> "Okay, one, that sounds crazy. Two,
the army just gave like put to put this in

816
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:50,877
context, that was like 6 months after
Microsoft had won the IVAS contract."

817
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,237
They're like, "Well, that's what
Microsoft's doing. Why why why would you

818
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:57,757
be working on that?" And even then,
it's because we had a vision for what it

819
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,317
needed to be that was somewhat divergent
from what the army or Microsoft was

820
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,717
doing. And so, we kept investing.
We kept building. And I mean, who would

821
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,877
have bet that eight years later that
Microsoft contract, that $22 billion

822
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,197
contract vehicle for the architecture
of the army's AR future would move over to

823
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:19,037
Anderl that we would be launching
something like Eagle Eye and that it

824
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,837
would be an extremely you know that when

825
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,517
we took over SBMC from Microsoft that we

826
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,277
integrated our UI and features that
we've been building on Lattis in less

827
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,517
than two weeks. like we literally like

828
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,717
we we we we did in two weeks what the

829
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,877
army had been working on for years
because we've been building this backend

830
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,877
for it and kind of preparing for the day
where this might happen. So it it feels

831
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:47,037
very much like a culmination of destiny,
a bet that paid off. Uh I've been

832
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,437
definitely talking to my investors
and reminding them that they told told us

833
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,597
that this was a moonshot that probably
was not going to pan out. um like you

834
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,877
know I mean try try telling someone
I think Microsoft is going to transfer

835
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,877
their $22 billion contract to us at some
point. It's just like they're just like

836
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:04,877
Palmer like that's magical thinking.

837
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,357
Like it's not like it's the type
literally I've been told Palmer that's

838
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:14,477
the type of thing you think when you just
miss the boat and you just can't bear to

839
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:16,237
>> like you're just you're just coping.

840
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,677
You're just >> coping.
It's cope. It's pure cope. I said

841
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,077
>> well let's let's give it up
for a culmination of destiny.

842
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:24,557
>> Yeah. Culmination of destiny.

843
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,397
>> I'm always a fan of people achieving
achieving their destiny. I I haven't

844
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,957
gotten to mine yet. Although, you know,

845
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:35,597
um I won't I won't I won't do this.
You know, I think I think you guys might

846
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,957
have even asked me about this at one
point. I I' I So, you know, I have this

847
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,517
I have this uh I have this this goatee
that I've been growing ever since I was

848
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,877
fired. >> And um you know,
that was like coming up

849
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,637
on nine years ago now.
>> And uh I I've told people who asked

850
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:53,517
about it that I I can't I can't shave it

851
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:58,477
until certain conditions are met,
until I achieve certain goals in my life.

852
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,037
Okay. >> And uh I I' I've
just been cryptic about

853
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:02,957
it and never said why. I don't plan on

854
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,597
changing that. But I will let you know

855
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,317
>> I have achieved
those life goals. I have

856
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:11,917
achieved the the the the my destiny end

857
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:15,517
that I that I set set
for myself eight years ago. So

858
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,997
>> Wait, so does that mean you're just
you're just keeping the goatee because

859
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,917
you like it? Is that what you mean?

860
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,717
>> So well I I I said I'm not going to

861
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,317
shave it until these conditions occur.

862
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,437
And uh there were people who believed
that those conditions will never occur.

863
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:33,197
We'll have to talk about it another time.
Sure. Uh but but uh it's not that

864
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,517
I must shave it. It's that I now can
shave it. That's right. I I I tweeted

865
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:40,637
about it a few years ago and I said,
uh look, I I I'm not going to tell you

866
00:48:40,720 --> 00:48:42,477
what's going on in my in my personal

867
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,837
life yet here. But but suffice to say,

868
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,477
>> when the beard comes off,

869
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:52,877
shit's about to go down.
We need a we need a we need a beard

870
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,237
we'll get a beard tracker on the
website for sure that people get

871
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:00,797
>> well we have uh Brian Armstrong
uh joining the show. Thank you so much

872
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,637
Palmer for joining. That was a fantastic
conversation. Uh we'd love to have you

873
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:06,557
back. We'll talk to you soon.
How you guys doing?

874
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:11,160
>> Good to see you Palmer. Yep.