WEBVTT

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you

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Every morning, the President of the United
States receives the most exclusive

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briefing in the world. the PDB.

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the best intelligence on the planet
distilled into what matters most.

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But the contest that will define this
century isn't only fought with armies

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and spies. It's fought in labs.

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and code and chips.

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in technology. That's why we created
the President's Tech Brief. Twice a week,

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we bring you a briefing
on technology and national security.

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the one that we would
put on the Resolute desk.

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The world is moving faster, and so are we,

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by tracking the current state of the tech
competition with China through our tech

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scorecard. Live from the SESP
studio, your briefing starts now.

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now. .

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Hi, welcome to the President's Tech Brief.

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I'm Ily with the SESP and we're
here live from Washington.

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I'm here joined by Martin. Martin.
Good to see you, Ily. Good to be back.

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Two days ago, you and I, Martin,
talked about the lunch that the President

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was having with the AI.
Ily. CEOs after that lunch.

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The document was signed, so what
the president calls this morally binding

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document. So today we're going
to analyze what that document means.

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It has four layers of control that I think
the president expects all these companies

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to follow through. And if you have
any questions from the audience or any

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comments, please let us know.
Our question for the day is,

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do you trust AI companies
to police themselves?

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Your response or responses are already
rolling in and we'll read some of them

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during the conversation, Martin.
Great, great. So what's your take, Martin?

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Well, I think the four layers
are a great starting point, right?

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What I really want to then know is if one
of these tests does indicate a failure,

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how does that change how the company
is structured, how it operates?

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So there's some unknowns there,
implementation deadlines,

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who the third-party
auditors are going to be,

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and whether or not any of these
reports will be made public.

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I think there is a benefit to maximize
the transparency, just so that we can –

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increased trust in what
these companies are building.

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I think first you need to build trust
between the companies because I think

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having an independent auditor
has to be an actor or...

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organization or somebody
that really everybody trusts?

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And then are the companies really going
to showcase everything they're working on

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and what they're building on?

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And then thirdly is what happens when
they don't follow this. We saw the FTC,

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we talked about this. The FTC,
I think, court ruling, right?

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order on that one. Case. Case against
open AI and Anthropic yesterday.

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Yeah, exactly. So a lot
of developments still in play.

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So as we go through the month, we'll
see how this all starts planning out,

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this is shaping out. But overall,
I think this is a good step in the right

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direction. And hopefully it'll take some
of the heat out of the debate right now so

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we can have more balanced
discussion on how we move forward.

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from what we've seen so far. We had two
comments that came on our LinkedIn page.

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If our team can pull it up.

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I think people had the same questions.
Like you and I have a conversation.

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Similar concerns, I believe.
Yeah, I think so.

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I think this is largely representative
of how a lot of people are thinking about

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these issues. And so, yeah, it's fantastic
to see people engaging with SESPs posts

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and on these issues,
how we're thinking about it.

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And that's exactly what we want, right?
To just have a mature, robust discussion.

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We also have a question
on Signal that I just got.

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So what do you think
is going to happen after this?

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The President calls it
morally binding document.

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Sure. Well,

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I want to see the companies then telling
us what the implementation actually looks

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like, right? When they start,
what their implementation plan is. Again,

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this provides...

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the leaders of these tech companies
a great opportunity to show the American

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public that they're taking
these issues seriously.

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So I would love to see for each of the
companies that are impacted by this.

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How are you going to act now
that you've signed this document?

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We will cover this topic at length
with our guest, Brandon Daniels,

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shortly from Exeger,
who was at the meeting.

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And then we also had
a conversation yesterday on our...

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weekly segment across the aisle with Mike
Kuyken and Josh Hodges. But first,

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you know, this was an interesting week and
probably to a certain degree a sad week

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because we left, our forces left Iraq.

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where you served, Martin, after how
many years now? 23 years probably since

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the operation against Saddam
Hussein from our forces.

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We have Ilbert here from our team
joining us who also served there.

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So I just want to quickly before we
move on on the next topic just to get

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your take.

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You were there how many years ago,
Martin? Exactly 16 years ago. So, yeah,

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I was... Tell us how you landed there.
What did you do? Yeah,

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so I was working with the Central
Intelligence Agency at the time. And,

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you know, I was working
on completely different topics,

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but I wanted to volunteer and, you know,
contribute myself to the very important

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mission that we were there for.

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I was originally slated to be in Balad,
but then it turned out that there was

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an underlap in staff
coverage in Anbar province.

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So I actually found myself in Ramadi.

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for the rest of the year,
which was a pretty wild time.

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Was that a formative experience
for you, Martin? Oh, absolutely.

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I never would have fathomed that I
would be doing the work that I was doing.

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how much responsibility I
was entrusted with, got to work with,

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Special Operations Forces, with diplomats,

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from the United States as well as Iraq and
then a whole bunch of provincial leaders

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as well. Lumber, what about you? How did
you end up going there? In Iraq? Well,

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I was in Iraq three different times.
One was in the immediate aftermath of

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the invasion. This was in 2003.
I was working for U.S.

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Institute of Peace at that time, so
we're trying to do some capacity building

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for the newly stood-up Iraqi ministries.
And then my second time there was in 2007

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during the surge that
General Petraeus led.

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I was privileged to be part of his staff.

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So I was there for a year. That's really
when we sort of turned the tide against

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the a civil war that had erupted in 2006.

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And then I traveled quite extensively
to Iraq in 2015-2016 during the height of

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our Defeat ISIS campaign.
Secretary Ash Carter.

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Yeah, who led that effort.

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So this is sort of the third operation
that we're bringing to a conclusion called

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inherent resolve. It's bittersweet
in many ways. I think on one hand,

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You know, I'm glad that U.S. service
members no longer need to be there,

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and the Iraqis can take care
of their own security. We lost...

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nearly 4,600 U.S. service members.

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300-day coalition members as well. But

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I saw twice what
the withdrawal from Iraq led to,

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in either instance in 2006 or in 2011.

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The outcome was positive.
You know, in 2011,

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ISIS came back and engulfed
the country in turmoil.

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So I hope that's not the case this time.
I would have preferred that we kept some

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residual presence.

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sure that

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threats in that part of the world don't
impact our interests and the stability

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of Iraq.

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We are where we are now.

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I've never served in Iraq,
but I was there 48 hours, I think,

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with the Deputy Secretary of Defense
once on the way to Afghanistan.

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It was fascinating. That landing in
Baghdad is something I will never forget.

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Did you do the corkscrew? Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah. How was it for you, Martin,
this week to see this coming to an end?

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It brought back a lot
of memories. Frankly, yeah,

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and that story and just seeing those
pictures that I hadn't looked at in many

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years, I was like, oh, holy cow,
what a time that was. It was, yeah, just,

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again, a very important
experience for me as an American,

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for me as a young CIA officer.

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So, yeah, very formative.
Fascinating. I mean, you know,

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just to thank everybody that served there,
many, many troops, a lot of lost lives.

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And, you know, the region is still,
I think, evolving. I mean, we are now,

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you know...

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in war against Iran. And I think this
doesn't come at the expense of us leaving

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Iraq, as you said, like every time we
withdrew or we changed the operation,

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you know, other actors filled the vacuum.
So hopefully this time that's not

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the case. But we'll be
interested to know your thoughts.

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Yeah, I mean, to Martin's point,
this was formative not just for me,

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but I think for an entire generation
of policymakers in the U.S.

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I mean, Iraq, Afghanistan,
the war on terror. In many ways,

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I think the Iraq debate continues to
this day among sort of the foreign policy

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elites. You know, I think Iraq
has been through a lot, certainly.

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It's certainly in a much better place now
than I think it was in 2003 or 2006, but

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or certainly in 2014.

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We have different ways of staying engaged
there with the Iraqi government and make

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sure that Iraq remains independent. It
certainly doesn't become sort of a stooge

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of the Iranian regime and that it
becomes a net contributor of security to

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the region.

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It looks promising, but again, you know,
I'm cautious because the last two times,

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I think, things didn't work
out as the way we had hoped.

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it would

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Gentlemen, thank you to both of you.
Thank you for your service. You know,

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I hope you don't have to go
back anytime soon there,

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and I hope that country is on the path.

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towards stability and brighter, you know,
perspective for their people first,

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and then for the region.
Thank you. Thank you.

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*music*

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Welcome back.
We're joined by Brandon Daniels,

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who is the founder and CEO of Exeger,
one of the leading AI companies.

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But the other reason why we wanted to have
you today, Brandon, good to have you.

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Good to be here. Yeah, thank you
guys for having me. Yeah, it's great.

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is you were one of the CEOs attending the
meeting with the president two days ago.

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So we wanted to take...
I came from the White House.

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Got to go back to the White House right
after this. Thank you for doing this.

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So tell us...

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What happened inside that room? What
was the conversation about and then how

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that led to the signing of the document?
Yeah, yeah. So...

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First, just taking a step back,

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you know a lot of people
have talked about that meeting

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one of the things that I haven't seen
reported anywhere is that the meeting

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was three hours

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And that amount of time...

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with that group of people,
led to a really robust discussion.

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Led to a really robust discussion
around the future of superintelligence,

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the name superintelligence. It also led to
a really robust discussion around safety,

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around scalability, around...

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sort of the infrastructure that needs
to be built around superintelligence,

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it led to a very, very vibrant debate.

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You know, because a lot of people have
said the meeting was congenial. It was.

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It was congenial.

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A lot of people have said the meeting was
a lot of people interacting and engaging,

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some people that hadn't met before.
Yep, that happened too.

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But there was – the president
encouraged robust debate.

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So we started the meeting,
and before the meeting –

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Mark Zuckerberg and Jensen had put
together a series of principles that they

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believed to be

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you know inherently superseding principles
that we all could agree to regardless

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of where we sat on the super intelligence
existential threat debate. Right.

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And so, you know, we had that piece
of paper going in and that had been shared

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with Speaker Johnson. It had been
shared with some of the folks in

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the administration like we knew
we were going to come out with

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an agreement or no agreement, right,
on information that had been shared.

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Then the president was that document
coordinated between Mark and Jensen

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beforehand or. Yeah. Yeah. But it was also
circulated to the CEOs that were going

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to be there. Right. So, you know,
that that that set of principles.

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you know, was not new
to the people in the room.

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Then the president opened it up
and asked us each for our views.

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We all had five to ten minutes to talk,
and then we had an opportunity to exchange

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thoughts on the things that people said.

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So, you know, we we we all
came to a consensus. I mean,

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everybody thinks like, OK, you know,
there's there's so much alignment in

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that group because everyone's running
companies in super intelligence in AI

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that that all have the same
motive. That's not true.

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I mean, the motives of Nikesh

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versus the motives of Haktan, versus the
motives of Dario, are all very different.

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All of us have different backgrounds. All
of us have different business journeys.

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All of us are on different
sides of the spectrum, right?

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Any unresolved issues
that you're able to share?

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I think there was there was a debate and
there were some issues that didn't have

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to be resolved. Right. Like which which
which issue do people believe is the more

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important one? the existential
threat of not being the winner in AI?

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or the existential threat of a potential
errant or a purposefully set model

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doomsday, right? We didn't have to agree
or disagree which one was more likely.

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But I will tell you, everyone
in that room said we had to win the race.

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There was not, to a man, everyone said
the most important thing is that we win

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the race. It for sure is.

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But that doesn't mean that some people
didn't have on the same level the risk

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of AI doing something
that we didn't anticipate.

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But the superseding principles
that we came up with were one, look,

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everyone in that room is a programmer.

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So we've all built these agents. Like I
talked about when the president asked me

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for my comments, I said, you know,
we have to go back to the beginning.

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The agents that I built, the first
agents that I built in my company,

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because I actually sat down and built the.

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I know, I remember you telling me.

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actually were not for my company. The
first one that I ever built was actually

00:20:07.808 --> 00:20:11.580
to diagnose a complex set
of cancers that my wife has.

00:20:11.900 --> 00:20:15.727
She's got immunodiseases.
She's got what's called Ehlers-Danlos.

00:20:15.810 --> 00:20:18.782
It actually erodes away
at your connective tissue.

00:20:18.866 --> 00:20:23.059
And I wanted to understand the link
between this sort of constellation

00:20:23.143 --> 00:20:25.167
of cancer that she has and cancer.

00:20:25.250 --> 00:20:29.384
these immune issues, right,
or autoimmune diseases, essentially,

00:20:29.468 --> 00:20:33.290
and see if there was something
we could do to attack both.

00:20:33.710 --> 00:20:37.770
And my wife right now is in clinical
remission, 'cause we did attack both.

00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:40.984
And so I said, we can't forget
that in this conversation.

00:20:41.067 --> 00:20:44.158
And do we want to be the ones
that have that kind of power?

00:20:44.241 --> 00:20:47.900
Do we want someone else to be
the ones that have that kind of power?

00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.957
And so, you know, we had
a conversation and we said, okay,

00:20:52.040 --> 00:20:55.929
we know that we can put governance
and code. So let's do it.

00:20:56.012 --> 00:20:59.306
Because AI models, super
intelligence capabilities,

00:20:59.389 --> 00:21:01.640
they are impotent without tooling.

00:21:01.940 --> 00:21:05.942
So it's actually the tooling and the
software and the access to data that makes

00:21:06.025 --> 00:21:08.300
it potent, makes it so
it can be productive.

00:21:08.570 --> 00:21:12.868
We can put governance in that tooling. We
can put what I call the surge protector.

00:21:12.952 --> 00:21:16.075
In my systems today,
if something is draining too much cost,

00:21:16.158 --> 00:21:19.495
draining too much compute,
or is covering too much cybersurface,

00:21:19.578 --> 00:21:22.410
there's actually a surge
protector that shuts it off.

00:21:22.850 --> 00:21:26.128
That doesn't mean that that AI model
can't keep learning and getting better

00:21:26.211 --> 00:21:29.130
and better and better and better.
It doesn't mean I have to give up

00:21:29.214 --> 00:21:30.214
my innovative place.

00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:35.008
And that's one thing Jensen
and Zuckerberg both said was, hey, like,

00:21:35.091 --> 00:21:40.171
I don't think that innovation and safety
are loggerheads. They're actually,

00:21:40.254 --> 00:21:45.830
you know, one thing here. So, you know,
I come back to the point of disagreement.

00:21:45.950 --> 00:21:51.043
On the point that we all have to know
the model purpose and set up monitoring,

00:21:51.126 --> 00:21:54.687
safeguards, and guardrails
to make sure that we are...

00:21:54.770 --> 00:21:58.970
We are monitoring whether or not
the model is operating for its purpose.

00:21:59.060 --> 00:22:02.623
We all agreed to that. We then all
agreed that we could do it in code.

00:22:02.706 --> 00:22:05.001
We know that we can put
that governance into code,

00:22:05.084 --> 00:22:07.234
but we have to empower
our people to do it.

00:22:07.430 --> 00:22:11.084
And then the thing that I thought
was brilliant and, you know,

00:22:11.167 --> 00:22:15.485
even Elon and others were aligned
with this is we should have third party

00:22:15.568 --> 00:22:20.066
external auditors. Any discussion on how
those third party auditors would be

00:22:20.149 --> 00:22:24.105
selected? Are there specific
criteria that we're going to look for?

00:22:24.188 --> 00:22:27.420
I think one of the things
that was interesting is, one,

00:22:27.504 --> 00:22:30.374
they have to be experts,
right, to do the audits.

00:22:30.457 --> 00:22:33.117
And that's a very small
population of people.

00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:37.324
But there's also an opportunity to train
people and have people become fluent

00:22:37.407 --> 00:22:41.804
in these tools. And so that's one thing
is we have to be able to attract that kind

00:22:41.888 --> 00:22:45.739
of a talent into the auditors.
But one of the things that I also thought

00:22:45.822 --> 00:22:49.741
was interesting is, The president
came up with this idea that, you know,

00:22:49.824 --> 00:22:53.900
you have a board for those auditors,
and those might not be people that,

00:22:54.080 --> 00:22:58.300
that are programmers or developers. Those
might be great lawyers that understand

00:22:58.383 --> 00:23:02.066
the technology, or great policy
makers that understand the technology,

00:23:02.149 --> 00:23:06.560
which I thought was really brilliant. And
everyone kind of really liked that idea.

00:23:06.680 --> 00:23:08.880
I wasn't sure if, you know...

00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:12.447
We're all technologists,
and there's a little bit of this, like,

00:23:12.531 --> 00:23:15.679
technocrat feel to the meeting,
right? But, I mean, you know,

00:23:15.762 --> 00:23:18.592
Vice President Vance said
the same thing. I mean, like,

00:23:18.676 --> 00:23:22.884
there was agreement that we should have
people that are thinking about more than,

00:23:22.967 --> 00:23:24.980
like, how the technology is effective.

00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:29.016
but think about it more from like
a humanitarian impact perspective that I

00:23:29.099 --> 00:23:32.240
thought was really interesting
to that third-party auditor.

00:23:32.450 --> 00:23:37.610
We have this four-layer framework now.
Which of the layers do you see being most

00:23:37.694 --> 00:23:40.250
consequential for how companies will...

00:23:40.370 --> 00:23:45.119
behave going forward? I think one,
empowering the people beneath you to make

00:23:45.203 --> 00:23:49.888
sure that you have the guardrails
and capabilities set up to make sure it's

00:23:49.972 --> 00:23:52.017
safe. We have to do that already.

00:23:52.100 --> 00:23:57.040
I like to think of our artificial
intelligence and Palantirs and Nikesh's

00:23:57.123 --> 00:24:02.201
from Palo Alto networks. I like to think
of our AI as ruggedized AI, right,

00:24:02.284 --> 00:24:07.637
because we deploy to defense networks
and we deploy to, you know, FedRAMP-high,

00:24:07.721 --> 00:24:11.904
you know, systems that are
managing cargo and stuff like that.

00:24:11.987 --> 00:24:16.460
So we can't have errant decisions.
So all of that stuff is there.

00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:26.671
the loop that ends up taking down
a system or crashing a bunch of compute

00:24:26.755 --> 00:24:27.588
or whatever.

00:24:28.820 --> 00:24:31.406
That empowerment
is really important, right?

00:24:31.489 --> 00:24:36.380
And I think it addresses some of what the
FTC has brought up in the investigations

00:24:36.463 --> 00:24:38.040
into Anthropic and OpenAI.

00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:43.403
And then I thought the idea that we both
have board committees and an external

00:24:43.487 --> 00:24:47.742
auditor that reports that board
committee on AI development and safety,

00:24:47.826 --> 00:24:50.431
I thought was was also
really consequential.

00:24:50.514 --> 00:24:53.792
I know you're heading back
to the White House, Brandon.

00:24:53.876 --> 00:24:57.276
Tell us a little bit where
does Exeger stand in this now?

00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:01.859
What are you working on? What makes
you excited really about the next steps

00:25:01.942 --> 00:25:06.320
in this space? So so the way that the
meeting went when we when we closed

00:25:06.403 --> 00:25:08.420
the meeting, folks scattered off.

00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.795
I don't think Jensen was on that signed
document, was he? I can't remember.

00:25:12.878 --> 00:25:17.175
Or six tech CEOs, but I don't remember.
I think Jensen was on it. Was he on it?

00:25:17.259 --> 00:25:21.334
I couldn't remember. The way that it
happened is we closed out the meeting,

00:25:21.417 --> 00:25:25.104
and I know Alex wasn't on it,
because Alex had to run. I had to run.

00:25:25.187 --> 00:25:29.151
Lisa had to run. There were a bunch
of people that had to run right after

00:25:29.235 --> 00:25:30.068
the meeting.

00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:43.396
and have, and even though, I mean,
Anthropic was not destined to be where

00:25:43.479 --> 00:25:48.546
they are. They were just very smart about
creating their models, right? I mean,

00:25:48.630 --> 00:25:53.780
they were an underdog in comparison to
OpenAI or NVIDIA or anybody else, right?

00:25:54.230 --> 00:25:57.745
So the beauty of where we
are is it's democratized,

00:25:57.828 --> 00:26:01.797
and so somebody not in that
room might be the best person

00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:06.200
like super intelligence company in three
years, which I think is super cool.

00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:10.835
But the idea is now what we're doing is we
all have to agree to those principles.

00:26:10.918 --> 00:26:14.196
So in the next few days,
we'll all sign on to that document.

00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.061
We'll all agree to it, and we will
all implement it in our companies.

00:26:18.145 --> 00:26:20.583
Is there an agree-to
implementation timeline,

00:26:20.666 --> 00:26:23.048
or is it up to each
individual company to...

00:26:23.131 --> 00:26:27.361
I think we will get into those details,
but it's way faster than anyone could

00:26:27.445 --> 00:26:31.171
regulate the industry. I mean,
a lot of people talk about, oh, yeah,

00:26:31.254 --> 00:26:35.680
let's regulate, let's regulate, let's
regulate. The thing that I thought was...

00:26:35.780 --> 00:26:41.112
wild about that meeting is industry
is taking action to provide safety faster

00:26:41.195 --> 00:26:45.964
than anyone else could act.
And there was alignment in that room from

00:26:46.048 --> 00:26:48.720
the administration to all of the CEOs.

00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:51.345
Brandon, thank you.
I know you're a busy man.

00:26:51.428 --> 00:26:54.049
Thank you for dropping by and
letting us know what happened.

00:26:54.132 --> 00:26:56.843
A huge historic meeting that you
were part of. It was awesome.

00:26:56.926 --> 00:27:00.026
Best to you and the company
and we'll see you soon. Thank you.

00:27:00.890 --> 00:27:02.950
you

00:27:18.260 --> 00:27:22.289
conversation with Mike Kuyken and Josh
Hodges for this particular meeting.

00:27:22.372 --> 00:27:25.623
They were actually here in person.
They were here in person.

00:27:25.706 --> 00:27:27.540
So let's watch that conversation.

00:27:28.010 --> 00:27:32.511
with both of our friends. So Martin,
our next segment is Across the Aisle,

00:27:32.594 --> 00:27:34.647
and for the first time actually we have

00:27:34.730 --> 00:27:37.437
Both Mike and Josh here in Portland.
Gentlemen, good to have you.

00:27:37.520 --> 00:27:41.307
Great to be here. It's great to be here.
We're celebrating five years of SCSP.

00:27:41.390 --> 00:27:43.862
Thank you for coming.
Good party today. Yeah.

00:27:43.945 --> 00:27:46.670
For those of you that don't
know, Mike Kaiken...

00:27:46.760 --> 00:27:49.796
former National Security Advisor
to Senate Leader Chuck Schumer,

00:27:49.879 --> 00:27:53.779
Joshua Hodges, former National Security
Advisor to House Speaker Mike Johnson.

00:27:54.500 --> 00:27:59.547
Big titles, big people, big personalities.
I'm trying to be less big every day.

00:27:59.630 --> 00:28:03.184
All right. Let's jump into
the topic, Martin. Yesterday,

00:28:03.267 --> 00:28:05.540
the president hosted major AI CEOs.

00:28:06.050 --> 00:28:08.510
The White House, they issued a statement.

00:28:09.110 --> 00:28:12.590
Let's get into it. Mike, your take.

00:28:13.010 --> 00:28:16.450
Listen, I think it's good that I
always think it's good when industry

00:28:16.533 --> 00:28:19.616
and government are in a conversation.
And I think it's simple.

00:28:19.699 --> 00:28:22.832
I think government has a good
understanding of a lot of issues.

00:28:22.916 --> 00:28:27.122
I think artificial intelligence is one of
these areas where the technology is moving

00:28:27.205 --> 00:28:31.104
incredibly quickly. And it's important
that the smart people in the government

00:28:31.188 --> 00:28:34.219
actually understand what
the frontier is, what it looks like,

00:28:34.302 --> 00:28:37.334
what the what the opportunity
is and what the challenges are.

00:28:37.417 --> 00:28:40.500
And so anytime there's a convening
of industry and government,

00:28:40.583 --> 00:28:42.370
I generally consider it a positive.

00:28:43.010 --> 00:28:47.715
I mean, I'm a Democrat, so I was a little
bummed to make sure to see that there were

00:28:47.798 --> 00:28:51.192
no Democrats there.
You'll remember Leader Schumer. Actually,

00:28:51.275 --> 00:28:56.037
you were there with with with Eric Schmidt
and a whole bunch of other including Pete,

00:28:56.121 --> 00:28:59.116
including Jensen and Elon
Musk and sort of life. Yeah.

00:28:59.199 --> 00:29:01.587
And and it was five
or three years ago now.

00:29:01.670 --> 00:29:03.110
And so, uh,

00:29:03.290 --> 00:29:05.957
You know, this has been done before,
but it's always good to see government

00:29:06.040 --> 00:29:07.090
and industry talking.

00:29:07.340 --> 00:29:10.407
Yeah, Josh. Yeah, I mean, look,
yes, the meeting obviously happened.

00:29:10.490 --> 00:29:12.445
I think there's good
photo evidence of that.

00:29:12.528 --> 00:29:16.257
I think what we saw yesterday was really
the industry come together in a new way.

00:29:16.340 --> 00:29:19.100
new administration with
a new recognition that...

00:29:19.280 --> 00:29:21.632
Really, action has to be
put behind the words here.

00:29:21.716 --> 00:29:24.928
I thought it was great that they
got everybody aside the declaration,

00:29:25.011 --> 00:29:27.936
the terms of which are still
sort of coming out. But, you know,

00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:29.990
this is generally good.
But it's, you know,

00:29:30.073 --> 00:29:33.619
we need an actual backstop to it as well.
So we actually have to see sort of

00:29:33.703 --> 00:29:36.389
that self-policing, but also
the verification piece of it.

00:29:36.473 --> 00:29:39.687
And that's the part that I'm really
kind of looking to see is like –

00:29:39.770 --> 00:29:42.761
Are there going to be new authorities
coming forward that help sort of with

00:29:42.844 --> 00:29:45.916
that policing of it? Yeah, I think
there's a lot of really interesting issues

00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.990
that were talked about. I mean, as we
think about these models and we think

00:29:49.074 --> 00:29:51.695
about what the frontier is, I mean,
how are we going to do safety?

00:29:51.779 --> 00:29:54.564
How are we going to make sure
the government is involved? And I think,

00:29:54.648 --> 00:29:57.638
you know, all those topics are sort
of front of mind for people. And again,

00:29:57.722 --> 00:29:59.917
just going back to this,
like, very simple point.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:02.707
Industry and the government
talking is always a good thing.

00:30:02.790 --> 00:30:03.623
So,

00:30:04.200 --> 00:30:07.263
To push back on Josh a little bit, we
had voluntary commitments in the previous

00:30:07.346 --> 00:30:09.246
administration. How is this different?

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:12.025
We're actually going to have
sort of the policing side of it.

00:30:12.108 --> 00:30:14.826
So as Trump said yesterday,
we're going to have the DOJ, the FTC.

00:30:14.909 --> 00:30:18.187
I think this morning FTC came out with
they're actually doing an investigation

00:30:18.270 --> 00:30:21.720
and a review of all of the frontier labs.
So I think we're already starting to see

00:30:21.804 --> 00:30:24.607
some of this come to fruition.
And I do think this is going to lead

00:30:24.691 --> 00:30:27.451
to congressional action as well.
And to you, Mike, well, you know,

00:30:27.535 --> 00:30:30.535
the one last question. Yeah,
sure, sure, sure. To you, Mike.

00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:33.989
Last administration did invite all
these CEOs when they signed the voluntary

00:30:34.072 --> 00:30:36.572
commitment. They did or didn't?
They didn't. Okay.

00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:39.210
So how do you think
this time is different?

00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:42.037
I mean, in both...

00:30:42.120 --> 00:30:44.583
in both situations, whether it
was the Biden administration or the Trump

00:30:44.666 --> 00:30:47.407
administration, they're building this
plane while they're flying it. Right. Uh,

00:30:47.490 --> 00:30:50.648
That's hard and it's complicated.
And so you're doing the best you can

00:30:50.732 --> 00:30:54.029
in government. And again, I wish it
was bipartisan. But at the same time,

00:30:54.112 --> 00:30:57.641
this conversation is important to have.
And the the voluntary commitments will

00:30:57.724 --> 00:31:00.929
probably change over time. Maybe
there'll be some congressional action.

00:31:01.012 --> 00:31:03.522
I obviously hope there will be,
because all of you know,

00:31:03.605 --> 00:31:07.088
in an industry like this, you want
to make sure that you build something that

00:31:07.171 --> 00:31:10.607
is enduring. And the only way to have
something enduring is actually through

00:31:10.691 --> 00:31:14.358
Congress acting. And I also think in an
industry that could be or that will be so

00:31:14.442 --> 00:31:15.275
consequential,

00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:19.987
there be a big bipartisan
vote to show that

00:31:20.070 --> 00:31:24.380
there is an enduring commitment from
the government to figure out how to be

00:31:24.463 --> 00:31:29.125
thoughtful in this ecosystem. What would
your advice be to members of Congress as

00:31:29.208 --> 00:31:33.811
a response to this? Do you see them as
being boxed in by the signed declaration?

00:31:33.894 --> 00:31:37.350
No, not at all. I think it's
actually the other way around.

00:31:37.770 --> 00:31:41.011
I think right now, so the speaker said
sort of they're not planning on bringing

00:31:41.094 --> 00:31:44.334
folks back to pass some of what I think
some folks will return to is like these

00:31:44.418 --> 00:31:46.606
snap laws where you're seeing
sort of an overreaction.

00:31:46.690 --> 00:31:49.507
But what they're trying to do
is take a measured approach.

00:31:49.590 --> 00:31:53.462
Yes, the voluntary policing or
self-evaluation combined with government

00:31:53.546 --> 00:31:55.858
action. And I think
as the FTC, as the DOJ,

00:31:55.941 --> 00:32:00.427
the FBI and others are looking at this,
then you're going to see Congress actually

00:32:00.510 --> 00:32:04.438
identifying ways that they can take
rifle shot approaches where it's not

00:32:04.521 --> 00:32:08.840
over-regulation and it's not shutting
down the industry and stunting the growth

00:32:08.923 --> 00:32:13.352
that we are currently on the cusp of, but
actually enabling that. And by the way,

00:32:13.436 --> 00:32:16.890
we do this across all other sectors,
right? Aviation, banking.

00:32:19.590 --> 00:32:23.196
We can do it here. Yes,
the technology is moving very, very fast.

00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:25.693
We can accomplish this.
Sure. But, you know,

00:32:25.776 --> 00:32:29.326
Democrats on the Hill have been
pushing for much more. So, Mike,

00:32:29.409 --> 00:32:33.185
what would your recommendation be
to Democratic members of the House

00:32:33.268 --> 00:32:37.272
in particular on, you know, how do
you start working with Republicans on

00:32:37.355 --> 00:32:38.490
this issue, knowing?

00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:43.306
fairly well that, you know, Trump is not
going to sign certain types of bills.

00:32:43.389 --> 00:32:47.071
So how should they navigate this?
I mean, the simple first answer, Martin,

00:32:47.155 --> 00:32:51.142
is let's get past the election. I think
you're not likely to have a conversation

00:32:51.226 --> 00:32:54.806
that doesn't, you know, on purpose
or accidentally result in a political

00:32:54.890 --> 00:32:57.808
outcome. But in 30, I don't know,
I can't do math. 34 days.

00:32:57.892 --> 00:33:01.167
34 days before the election.
So the first thing I would do is say,

00:33:01.250 --> 00:33:05.238
sit on your hands. And then let's maybe
see if we can have a conversation during

00:33:05.321 --> 00:33:08.120
the lame duck. I mean,
I would run for 20 lame ducks or

00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.547
There's not usually a lot of get a lot
that gets done in terms of like long

00:33:12.630 --> 00:33:14.987
things that are really truly
enduring. It's usually like,

00:33:15.070 --> 00:33:17.298
how can we kick the can into
January? And I, you know,

00:33:17.381 --> 00:33:20.894
I don't want to say that Congress won't be
able to get anything done during the lame

00:33:20.977 --> 00:33:24.104
duck. But reality is doing something
that is big and consequential is hard.

00:33:24.187 --> 00:33:27.057
So that's the first thing I would say.
Sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead.

00:33:27.141 --> 00:33:29.857
I was just I didn't expect to agree
with Mike on anything today.

00:33:29.940 --> 00:33:33.383
But this scenario, I'm pleased to hear
because I do think getting through

00:33:33.466 --> 00:33:35.116
the election is really important.

00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:38.842
In addition to that, like immediately
we already have things in the works

00:33:38.925 --> 00:33:42.453
that Congress is working on, and I think
there's opportunity to find a bipartisan

00:33:42.536 --> 00:33:45.663
approach on the NDA. Again, the whole
purpose of this is we want to win.

00:33:45.747 --> 00:33:48.963
We want to compete against every nation
that's trying to develop AI and be

00:33:49.046 --> 00:33:52.307
the lead to own that marketplace.
Right now there are provisions in the NDA

00:33:52.390 --> 00:33:55.696
that would help us maintain that lead,
and I think that is something that on

00:33:55.779 --> 00:33:57.787
a bipartisan basis we
can rally around and do.

00:33:57.870 --> 00:33:59.901
Yeah, I mean, the things
that Josh mentioned in the NDA,

00:33:59.984 --> 00:34:01.901
I think there's a lot
of really good things in there.

00:34:01.985 --> 00:34:03.713
And interestingly,
they're different capacities,

00:34:03.797 --> 00:34:06.318
a lot of things that Josh and I
have been working on for a long time.

00:34:06.401 --> 00:34:09.527
So those are good. I think in terms of how
do you have this conversation either after

00:34:09.610 --> 00:34:12.132
the election or in the new year,
when there's a new Congress, I mean,

00:34:12.215 --> 00:34:14.321
the first thing you have to do
is sort of figure out like,

00:34:14.404 --> 00:34:15.997
where are we actually aligned? And I think

00:34:16.080 --> 00:34:19.315
that one of the conversations you just
can't have 34 days or 35 days before

00:34:19.398 --> 00:34:21.704
an election is like, where
is their alignment? I mean,

00:34:21.787 --> 00:34:24.624
every political actor, regardless
of their Democrat or Republican,

00:34:24.707 --> 00:34:27.942
is going to be like, where can I find
the opportunity to drive a wedge into

00:34:28.026 --> 00:34:31.216
this issue? And how can I how can I
get political gain from it? So, again,

00:34:31.300 --> 00:34:34.579
just this this is not the time to do it,
I think that but that doesn't mean,

00:34:34.662 --> 00:34:38.207
you know, 39 days from now or in January
that we shouldn't have that conversation.

00:34:38.290 --> 00:34:40.286
But I think there's a lot
of alignment. I mean,

00:34:40.370 --> 00:34:43.320
some of the things that Josh
talked about with DOJ and FTC.

00:34:46.080 --> 00:34:49.036
We'll have to have transparency into
that process. What does it look like?

00:34:49.120 --> 00:34:52.117
What are the outcomes? What are the risks?
And how do we think about those?

00:34:52.200 --> 00:34:55.537
The one thing I'm still puzzled is what
role would DOJ would play in this?

00:34:55.620 --> 00:34:58.980
There's so many agencies
that can put on top of this.

00:34:59.160 --> 00:35:01.988
to do some kind of a vetting,
control testing and stuff like that.

00:35:02.071 --> 00:35:04.458
What is DOJ going to do?
I think you're partially right.

00:35:04.541 --> 00:35:05.857
I think DOJ is sort of the...

00:35:05.940 --> 00:35:08.886
the muscle, so to speak, to make sure
that the companies are compliant. No,

00:35:08.970 --> 00:35:11.027
I know how the sound of that sounds.
It's the muscle.

00:35:11.110 --> 00:35:13.047
You're going to have
a major IC component on this.

00:35:13.130 --> 00:35:16.417
You're going to have the FBI involved.
They're going to have to be involved.

00:35:16.500 --> 00:35:18.944
specifically with some
of the WMD stuff, the bioweapons.

00:35:19.027 --> 00:35:22.329
And so they're going to have to be
involved across the interagency on this.

00:35:22.412 --> 00:35:24.811
It's not just going to be
those two. And that's, again,

00:35:24.894 --> 00:35:26.857
why I think there's
a lot of tools right now

00:35:26.940 --> 00:35:30.184
I think the FDC is relying on sort of some
statutes that go a little bit beyond

00:35:30.267 --> 00:35:33.457
their remit. And so they're going
to have to work with Congress on that.

00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:36.066
I mean, we have the departments
and agencies that we have.

00:35:36.149 --> 00:35:39.530
So somebody someone who's going to be
picked as the as the I don't know if we

00:35:39.613 --> 00:35:42.948
say lucky person or unlucky person
in this case. And so the agent, you know,

00:35:43.032 --> 00:35:45.153
how it works readily.
Someone's got it. You know,

00:35:45.236 --> 00:35:48.436
the president has to assign somebody
in the piece of paper that he forms.

00:35:48.520 --> 00:35:51.720
I mean, hopefully it is an interagency
effort. You know, the FTC. I mean,

00:35:51.804 --> 00:35:55.319
it's great. Consumers and the American
people are going to have have have should

00:35:55.402 --> 00:35:58.738
have an incredible role in this. And
understanding the impact on on citizens

00:35:58.821 --> 00:36:02.021
is important. I think the point
Josh raised is really important.

00:36:03.540 --> 00:36:06.104
international intelligence play,
the cyber community play,

00:36:06.187 --> 00:36:08.477
and what's sort of the red
teaming capacity of this?

00:36:08.560 --> 00:36:11.900
How are we thinking about auditing?
There's a lot of questions to be asked.

00:36:11.983 --> 00:36:12.067
And

00:36:12.150 --> 00:36:17.312
Someone's got to lead it, so here we are.
So one other thing I wanted to ask you

00:36:17.395 --> 00:36:21.639
guys was – so yesterday we released
America.gov, we being the U.S.

00:36:21.722 --> 00:36:25.537
government. So it's a chatbot
that should allow people to –

00:36:25.620 --> 00:36:28.121
engage with government
services more easily.

00:36:28.204 --> 00:36:31.703
So love to get your guys take.
Well, what do you think of it?

00:36:31.787 --> 00:36:36.343
Is this the right way forward? Are there
any risks involved with something like

00:36:36.426 --> 00:36:40.627
this? I'll let my esteemed
colleague go first on the attack.

00:36:40.710 --> 00:36:45.975
No, listen, I think... When I
think about the American government,

00:36:46.058 --> 00:36:49.171
one thing I never think is AI ready.
And the other thing I never think about

00:36:49.254 --> 00:36:52.409
is data ready. So I think in both places,
I think the administration, I mean,

00:36:52.492 --> 00:36:55.605
is trying to do some work here. But
there's so much work to be done and none

00:36:55.688 --> 00:36:58.212
of it is being done urgently.
And so, like, there's a website,

00:36:58.295 --> 00:37:01.408
did you know this part, called data.gov,
where there's all kinds of the U.S.

00:37:01.491 --> 00:37:04.391
government and state and local
data that's made available.

00:37:05.040 --> 00:37:08.295
Where are we in terms of making
all this other data available,

00:37:08.379 --> 00:37:12.173
and how can we think about really
mobilizing the entire executive branch

00:37:12.256 --> 00:37:16.373
to think about data in a real way where
we can make sure that these models are

00:37:16.456 --> 00:37:19.442
actually training on America.gov,
on other American data?

00:37:19.526 --> 00:37:23.643
Because at least before the frontier
models sort of got out and started really

00:37:23.726 --> 00:37:27.980
improving, you know who the biggest holder
of data was in the world? Uncle Sam.

00:37:35.040 --> 00:37:37.240
some really interesting
work with that data.

00:37:37.980 --> 00:37:38.377
Thank you.

00:37:38.460 --> 00:37:42.656
So, yes, this is one of those areas where
I think it probably sounds very boring

00:37:42.739 --> 00:37:46.240
to the average person, but it's
absolutely essential and necessary.

00:37:46.323 --> 00:37:49.771
The United States has been
drastically behind on this for decades.

00:37:49.854 --> 00:37:53.194
I mean, literally, like the fact
that we have a separate system,

00:37:53.277 --> 00:37:57.420
a separate website for every little thing
you have to do across the government.

00:37:57.503 --> 00:38:00.630
A country like Estonia has done
this decades ago. I was in –

00:38:00.713 --> 00:38:03.120
we were speaking to a
foreign minister from –

00:38:03.210 --> 00:38:06.133
Kazakhstan, and we were talking
about AI and tech and everything,

00:38:06.216 --> 00:38:08.815
and he pulled out his phone
and showed me that on one app,

00:38:08.898 --> 00:38:12.145
he could go from working on a visa
application to paying his water bill,

00:38:12.228 --> 00:38:15.197
to paying his electrical utilities.
It was all there in one place.

00:38:15.281 --> 00:38:17.556
He didn't have to go
to several different websites.

00:38:17.639 --> 00:38:19.545
It's all sort of there
together. Obviously,

00:38:19.628 --> 00:38:22.782
we had a more complicated system
here in the United States, but again,

00:38:22.865 --> 00:38:25.742
I think it's a great initiative.
It probably sounds very boring,

00:38:25.825 --> 00:38:29.442
probably sounds like it's nothing, but I
think it's going to make people's lives

00:38:29.525 --> 00:38:30.358
much

00:38:33.210 --> 00:38:37.321
they're working with performs yeah I mean
Martin one of the things I recently did

00:38:37.405 --> 00:38:41.620
was I was driving so in a city that's not
Washington DC and the traffic lights were

00:38:41.703 --> 00:38:45.866
a disaster can you imagine if you could
synchronize all the data in just a city oh

00:38:45.949 --> 00:38:50.164
yeah and I can take two and a half minutes
off your commute every morning and every

00:38:50.248 --> 00:38:53.510
afternoon morning I was sitting
at an intersection for a minute

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:57.280
red light, no cars, no pedestrians,
like there's a better way. I mean,

00:38:57.364 --> 00:39:01.028
this is a solvable problem, right? And so
as you start thinking about the data

00:39:01.112 --> 00:39:03.142
that government has
available to it, I mean,

00:39:03.226 --> 00:39:05.426
there's all kinds
of really incredible ways.

00:39:06.000 --> 00:39:09.319
kind of small ways that have a real
impact on citizens, right? I mean,

00:39:09.402 --> 00:39:13.012
in Washington, D.C., I'm told, and I
learned this a long time ago when I was

00:39:13.096 --> 00:39:16.852
in the Senate, that they actually have
the ability to control all of the lights

00:39:16.935 --> 00:39:20.011
in the city, which is astounding
given how dysfunctional the D.C.

00:39:20.094 --> 00:39:23.753
government can sometimes be. But can
you imagine taking my traffic light idea

00:39:23.836 --> 00:39:26.377
and applying that to the
District of Columbia? I mean,

00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:29.876
it would be bananas, Martin. And if
you could then say, like, oh, honey,

00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:32.112
I'm home five minutes
early because, you know,

00:39:32.195 --> 00:39:35.595
Claude or Chachy PT somehow got
the lights in the city to get going.

00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.504
Hopefully you can scale
that idea with Uncle Sam's data,

00:39:38.587 --> 00:39:41.414
and so hopefully you can figure
out how to get services faster.

00:39:41.498 --> 00:39:44.972
It would be pretty astounding. I think
it's in general a positive initiative,

00:39:45.055 --> 00:39:47.355
but like everything's
in the execution, right?

00:39:47.580 --> 00:39:49.761
Yeah, and it actually has to work,
right? Because ultimately,

00:39:49.845 --> 00:39:52.843
if it gives people time back in their day
to spend with their families or do things

00:39:52.926 --> 00:39:55.293
that they need to be doing to create
a business or something else,

00:39:55.376 --> 00:39:58.115
that's amazing. At the same time,
there is an inherent sort of security risk

00:39:58.198 --> 00:39:59.927
and vulnerability to it.
Obviously, we all know.

00:40:00.010 --> 00:40:02.747
America's like the largest
cyber target in the world.

00:40:02.830 --> 00:40:06.769
And so really important that that piece of
it goes along and moves forward with it.

00:40:06.852 --> 00:40:08.998
But again, like an amazing
initiative. I mean,

00:40:09.081 --> 00:40:12.244
the cyber piece is totally right.
I'm actually glad Josh raised it.

00:40:12.328 --> 00:40:14.667
Something we worked
on in another capacity, again,

00:40:14.751 --> 00:40:18.108
is just like how do you deploy
cybersecurity in a really meaningful way

00:40:18.191 --> 00:40:20.628
at scale and quickly.
So it's a really hard problem.

00:40:20.711 --> 00:40:23.535
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.
That's right, yes.

00:40:23.618 --> 00:40:27.121
You can't let some of these things
stop you from implementing these things

00:40:27.204 --> 00:40:30.755
that people have had in their mind
with respect to government services for,

00:40:30.839 --> 00:40:32.089
you know, decades. Right.

00:40:32.380 --> 00:40:35.997
Thank you, gentlemen. That's all the time
we have for this week's segment across

00:40:36.080 --> 00:40:39.142
the aisle. Thank you for being here
in the studio. Getting the hook.

00:40:39.225 --> 00:40:41.454
Thanks for having us.
Great to be here personally.

00:40:41.538 --> 00:40:43.638
You should come see Josh and I more often.

00:40:45.100 --> 00:40:46.200
It's great to see you.

00:40:59.890 --> 00:41:04.783
Martin, this concludes our Thursday show.
We'll be back on Tuesday at noon across

00:41:04.867 --> 00:41:08.592
all our platforms. Make sure
you check out our next big event,

00:41:08.676 --> 00:41:13.385
which is the AI Plus Robotics. This is
our second big AI Plus Robotics Summit.

00:41:13.468 --> 00:41:17.378
It's the time when we have to really
pay attention on this issue,

00:41:17.462 --> 00:41:20.327
October 14th. Please go
and register at scsp.ai,

00:41:20.411 --> 00:41:24.647
and Martin and I will be back here
on Tuesday to cover the next week.

00:41:24.730 --> 00:41:27.868
Everything that the president needs
to know about tech and national security.

00:41:27.951 --> 00:41:29.001
Have a great weekend.

00:41:29.410 --> 00:41:36.410
*music*