1 00:00:02,930 --> 00:00:05,417 - Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about some of the greatest books of all time. 2 00:00:05,500 --> 00:00:09,057 And I should also give a shout-out to an excellent podcast he did with Sonia 3 00:00:09,140 --> 00:00:12,997 Walger, who's a friend of yours, but she had a great podcast. 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,840 She has guests pick their five favorite, most impactful books and so on. 5 00:00:16,930 --> 00:00:20,430 You picked five fiction books, one for each decade of your life. 6 00:00:20,540 --> 00:00:23,957 For the audience, they should go listen to that conversation. 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,707 But you picked Winter Holiday by Arthur Ransome. 8 00:00:27,790 --> 00:00:31,597 Second one was Wuthering Heights by Emily Brontë. 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,580 Then Tender Is the Night by F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Thin Red 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:39,620 Line by James Jones, and Middlemarch by George Eliot. 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,860 But just zooming out, reflecting back on that conversation, what do you think, 12 00:00:44,480 --> 00:00:48,297 if an alien came, what are some candidates for books 13 00:00:48,380 --> 00:00:50,077 that you would recommend to them? 14 00:00:50,160 --> 00:00:53,060 - Middlemarch. It's the best novel written in English. 15 00:00:54,020 --> 00:00:57,740 War and Peace is one of the best novels written in Russian, I would argue. 16 00:00:57,850 --> 00:01:01,677 I think both of those are... 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,117 Because if you've only got one book, you want a long book. 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:10,377 - Yeah, true. - And then they're both books that kind of... 19 00:01:10,460 --> 00:01:13,777 It's something I was always trying to put into games, and you know, that feeling 20 00:01:13,860 --> 00:01:19,980 of all of life is here. You know, you've got love, death, violence, romance, 21 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:24,237 the whole human experience in different ways. So I think there's something amazing 22 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,557 about, you know, Vanity Fair, I used to love the novel, not the magazine. 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:31,857 Because same thing, all of life is here. 24 00:01:31,940 --> 00:01:35,817 - You also spoke highly of F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway. 25 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:38,180 - I was obsessed by them in my 20s. 26 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:39,537 - Yeah. - Completely obsessed. 27 00:01:39,620 --> 00:01:41,627 - As one must be. - Yeah. - Absolutely. 28 00:01:41,710 --> 00:01:45,360 - At that age, and I think them as a double act is so amazing. 29 00:01:45,460 --> 00:01:52,460 You know, one helped discover the other and then died first, and then suddenly 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,137 died in obscurity and then was rediscovered as a genius 31 00:01:57,220 --> 00:02:00,317 while the other one was still alive and falling into decline, 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,557 I think their relationship is itself very novelistic. 33 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:08,500 - That, by the way, is a phenomenon of writing maybe no 34 00:02:08,620 --> 00:02:13,767 longer, maybe still, you know, people like Franz Kafka who died in obscurity. 35 00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:17,637 All these writers who die in obscurity. Nobody knows them and they 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,317 become famous later. That is just so interesting. That's such an interesting... 37 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,017 You know, Franz Kafka. 38 00:02:26,100 --> 00:02:30,200 Kafka in particular is fascinating because he wanted all of his work to be burned, 39 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,877 like destroyed. So that, speaking of the critical 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,357 voice, and I think he's one of the, 41 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,137 one of the best writers of the 20th century. Of course, the 42 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:47,417 dystopian novels are really interesting: 1984, Brave New World. 43 00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:51,397 - Love 1984. Had never listened to it or read it, and then I 44 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:54,957 think I did it on Talking Book, or I maybe read it, I can't remember, during COVID. 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,880 I think I did both, became obsessed by it. And it's got the elements of that 46 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:01,737 creeping into A Bed of Paradise. But it's so good. 47 00:03:01,820 --> 00:03:04,137 I hadn't realized how good it was. 48 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:06,517 - Yes. - And it's so of the moment. 49 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,040 - It's almost like because of its fame, and... 50 00:03:09,260 --> 00:03:12,167 it's almost like cliché, and you take away the character- 51 00:03:12,250 --> 00:03:14,247 - Yeah, if it were English... And I remember the year 1984- 52 00:03:14,330 --> 00:03:17,317 and you're like, "This is..." I remember the song. You know? It's just too much. 53 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:17,557 - Yeah. Too much. 54 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:20,925 - It can't be that good. And then it was that. I came to it completely cold, 55 00:03:21,008 --> 00:03:21,477 just, "Oh, I 56 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,951 should work my way through this 'cause it's another classic I haven't read." 57 00:03:25,034 --> 00:03:26,300 And then it's incredible. 58 00:03:26,660 --> 00:03:29,555 - And the book I've read more than any other book is Animal Farm by George 59 00:03:29,638 --> 00:03:36,137 Orwell. I don't know why exactly, but the childlike fairy tale-telling 60 00:03:36,220 --> 00:03:39,527 of totalitarianism. - Well, you grew up in a communist country. 61 00:03:39,610 --> 00:03:41,397 - Yeah. Maybe that's it. The roots of it. 62 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,927 - You know, I remember, I was a kid in the Cold War in 63 00:03:45,010 --> 00:03:47,615 London. And we were always terrified of Eastern Europeans, 64 00:03:47,698 --> 00:03:48,887 "You're gonna come and kill 65 00:03:48,970 --> 00:03:55,970 us all." And then I ended up marrying a Pole. And I was... We were... And we had 66 00:03:56,710 --> 00:04:00,267 Ukrainians, you know, who worked for us and worked with 67 00:04:00,350 --> 00:04:03,867 us. And I was... We were sitting, a few years ago, sitting around a 68 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:07,827 campfire in Upstate New York, with the campfire built by 69 00:04:07,910 --> 00:04:11,147 our old nanny's husband, who's Ukrainian, and he'd been in the Red 70 00:04:11,230 --> 00:04:13,541 Army. I was like, history is so strange that you end up... 71 00:04:13,624 --> 00:04:15,087 The Red Army used to be the ultimate 72 00:04:15,170 --> 00:04:18,707 enemy. And like, we're now just hanging out with... It's like, everything changes. 73 00:04:18,790 --> 00:04:22,127 You think these things are permanent, and they're really not. 74 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:25,151 You know, and we face some of that now, where you think these structures are 75 00:04:25,234 --> 00:04:27,047 permanent, and they're gonna change. 76 00:04:27,130 --> 00:04:31,107 - And you also mentioned that the three great World War II books are The Thin Red 77 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:34,137 Line, Life and Fate by Vasily Grossman. 78 00:04:34,220 --> 00:04:41,220 And The End of the Affair, Graham Greene. What makes for a great war book? 79 00:04:41,790 --> 00:04:43,010 - I think World War II 80 00:04:45,430 --> 00:04:47,610 is interesting because it affects everywhere, obviously. 81 00:04:47,694 --> 00:04:49,167 And so you can get all these different 82 00:04:49,250 --> 00:04:51,082 kinds of stories. And there's so many good... 83 00:04:51,165 --> 00:04:56,747 I was just trying to come up with a range of one American, one British, one 84 00:04:56,830 --> 00:05:00,560 Eastern European just to get different perspectives. But there's so 85 00:05:00,710 --> 00:05:04,260 many amazing World War II books around all kinds of stories. I think 86 00:05:05,230 --> 00:05:09,127 the most complete one, because it is this all of life being there, 87 00:05:09,210 --> 00:05:11,560 probably is Life and Fate, which is amazing. 88 00:05:11,850 --> 00:05:15,507 - It was written by Vasily Grossman. He experienced Stalingrad firsthand. 89 00:05:15,590 --> 00:05:18,240 And there's also just a deep philosophical component. 90 00:05:18,810 --> 00:05:22,527 - And the bit in Treblinka is one of the most harrowing sections of any book I ever 91 00:05:22,610 --> 00:05:29,070 read. And it really, almost more than any other piece of art around the Holocaust, 92 00:05:29,870 --> 00:05:30,703 made me feel 93 00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:33,585 what you would feel like at that moment. I mean, 94 00:05:33,669 --> 00:05:35,327 it's just incredible piece of humanism. 95 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:38,720 - And also, I mean, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. 96 00:05:38,850 --> 00:05:43,247 - Yeah. Oh, yeah. - It seems like that context reveals, in the most 97 00:05:43,330 --> 00:05:47,247 pure way, human nature and like what kind of... You know, in Man's Search for 98 00:05:47,330 --> 00:05:52,040 Meaning is when everything is taken from you, you know, the little 99 00:05:53,110 --> 00:05:57,340 remains of love for, in this case, his wife... 100 00:05:57,690 --> 00:06:00,027 is the thing that is a little flame that burns. 101 00:06:00,110 --> 00:06:05,607 And let's say your Grossman is small acts of kindness, 102 00:06:05,690 --> 00:06:10,147 is the thing that allows the human spirit to persist. 103 00:06:10,230 --> 00:06:13,910 - I love the bit in Life and Fate when you get... Obviously, it's in this 104 00:06:14,030 --> 00:06:17,127 Stalinist period, and so they're all 105 00:06:17,210 --> 00:06:20,887 losing... They all know that what they thought was going to be 106 00:06:20,970 --> 00:06:24,847 wonderful about the revolution isn't going to happen. So everyone's 107 00:06:24,930 --> 00:06:27,772 scared of being killed by Stalin 'cause it's post the purges. 108 00:06:27,855 --> 00:06:31,907 But then you get these guys and they're trapped in a building, fighting in 109 00:06:31,990 --> 00:06:35,367 Stalingrad. And so they know at this moment they're dead 110 00:06:35,450 --> 00:06:39,287 anyway. And they get to live like pure, perfect 111 00:06:39,370 --> 00:06:43,187 Marxist communists away from Stalin and all his nonsense. And I thought that 112 00:06:43,270 --> 00:06:46,207 section's incredible 'cause you realize in some ways, in all of its horrors, 113 00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:53,161 the most disappointing thing about the 20th century, in some ways, 114 00:06:53,244 --> 00:06:54,930 was the absolute 115 00:06:55,030 --> 00:06:58,847 failure of communism. You know? 'Cause it was such a, you know, quote-unquote 116 00:06:58,930 --> 00:07:02,367 beautiful idea and it just did not work time and time again. 117 00:07:02,450 --> 00:07:05,847 And these people who fought for it and then saw it not 118 00:07:05,930 --> 00:07:08,757 working, I think they're sort of fascinating characters. You know, 119 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,687 all of the revolutionaries from 120 00:07:11,770 --> 00:07:15,687 1917 that were then killed by Stalin, which was all of them apart from 121 00:07:15,770 --> 00:07:17,777 him, him and Lenin. 122 00:07:17,860 --> 00:07:21,707 - And that was, you know, people in modern day politics talk about communism 123 00:07:21,790 --> 00:07:25,747 like it's trivial, it's trivial that it would lead to atrocities. 124 00:07:25,830 --> 00:07:31,707 But I don't think it's that trivial. It's this idealism of humans. 125 00:07:31,790 --> 00:07:35,690 It's like, why, you know, why can't... Basically, why can't we all 126 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:38,525 get along? There's a real compassion behind it. There's real love. 127 00:07:38,608 --> 00:07:39,758 And what you realize is 128 00:07:40,350 --> 00:07:44,060 there is... It's a real study, the 20th century, of human nature. 129 00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:50,530 that, unfortunately, at scale, that kind of compassion is abused by 130 00:07:51,590 --> 00:07:55,387 centralized power. So there's a dictator always, in that context, 131 00:07:55,470 --> 00:08:02,257 given that set of technologies, a dictator arises and does the opposite 132 00:08:02,340 --> 00:08:04,987 of what the promise of the ideal is supposed to be. 133 00:08:05,070 --> 00:08:07,540 - Well, I think I thought a lot about that 134 00:08:08,750 --> 00:08:12,567 then because I was taught by all these disappointed communists, you know? 135 00:08:12,650 --> 00:08:15,217 After '89, all of these English communists, you know, 136 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:16,407 were all like having to 137 00:08:16,490 --> 00:08:20,247 access, discovering all these atrocities that happened. You know, so it always 138 00:08:20,330 --> 00:08:27,330 fascinated me. And then you think about complexities or where one's own values are 139 00:08:28,530 --> 00:08:32,447 in the modern moment. And I say, you know, without from every 140 00:08:32,530 --> 00:08:36,307 and whether either of them, what we would call left now or call right now, does it 141 00:08:36,390 --> 00:08:39,091 have any bearing on the sort of communist era of those words? 142 00:08:39,174 --> 00:08:40,267 And I would say probably 143 00:08:40,350 --> 00:08:44,260 not. I think things have changed. But fundamentally, the one value that 144 00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:47,887 I would think is worth fighting for is, whenever 145 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:52,727 either side starts to move towards thought control, move away. 146 00:08:52,810 --> 00:08:56,647 That's never the right outcome. The never right outcome is, "Oh, you've 147 00:08:56,730 --> 00:09:00,480 said the wrong thing. You should be removed now." That should never ever be 148 00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:02,587 a thing we should lean towards. 149 00:09:02,670 --> 00:09:08,070 - Yeah, it does seem like freedom, individual freedom, is a prerequisite for 150 00:09:08,690 --> 00:09:11,907 - for happiness - for happiness, and the flourishing of a larger society. 151 00:09:11,990 --> 00:09:15,247 So there's, like you said, 1984 is pretty. I mean, it's a caricature. 152 00:09:15,330 --> 00:09:16,147 - But it is brilliant. 153 00:09:16,230 --> 00:09:20,147 - It's quite, it's actually also just a good story. That's my criticism of 154 00:09:20,230 --> 00:09:23,850 Brave New World, it's just poorly written. But I like 155 00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:29,737 Brave New World probably applies more to the 21st century than does 1984. So, 156 00:09:29,820 --> 00:09:35,447 - I don't know. I think 1984, with the fake wars, and the way that it revealed 157 00:09:35,530 --> 00:09:37,547 everything in it was a setup for him. 158 00:09:37,630 --> 00:09:40,797 There's something that if he could've seen the Internet. There's something of, 159 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,370 it's like an analog internet, that world they build around the main character.